Thread #2 found here"I take you as you are" were the first words to our vows. I've been focusing my thoughts around them recently.
**************************
FlySolo, if I didn't read your note just now I think I'd be spinning. Maybe I'm spinning anyway.
I received a email check-in from W. It was brief and polite, as all of her communications have been. She will be back in town at the end of the month and wishes to figure out "how we are moving forward with things". I take that to specifically refer to the house and legal D.
We had a similar meeting at the end of January where I expected to receive D papers but I did not. We aren't at our 6 month separation mark yet so we can't yet be D, but I keep wondering when she will initiate the process. I do not ask or bring it up. I don't want it. If she wants it she will need to file.
We had talked about a living arrangement where I would rent the house from her for a while. I had told her I'd rent until at least the end of June, with a possible interest in longer than that. That is still my plan for the short term. She keeps asking "what the plan is" as if it has changed and I haven't let her know. I don't know if she feels I've been unclear, or she doesn't remember what we talked about, or if she just wants to keep checking-in to be sure I don't screw her over by moving out without notice. We agreed that I should give her 60 days notice if I wished to move out. This seemed amicable for both of us.
So I lost it when I received this email just a couple of hours ago. I still don't understand why she feels we aren't a good fit together. I am trying so hard to be respectful but I want to scream at her. I just want to know - What changed? When did something so good become so bad for her? When did it go from "things aren't good we need to fix this" to "I no longer wish to fix this and want a D"?
Her communication is all so clear and matter of fact and neutral. It gives me no hope that she's changing her mind. But then her actions baffle me. She has not changed her mailing address - I still pass along much of her mail which comes to the house. I received her car registration in the mail - which she registered in THIS STATE. She moved states. Why would she do that?? I didn't open the mail so perhaps I'm wrong on this one, but it looked like a registration to me by the envelope. Last time I saw her she told me she was going to take a bunch of stuff from the house and gave me a list. Said she'd leave the big pieces until March when she had a moving truck, but would take a bunch of smaller things. She didn't. Spent a morning at the house "packing" and literally nothing is missing.
I know I shouldn't have hope from these actions being wishy-washy. But sometimes I feel like she's killing me. I wonder if she is living with OW (who "supposedly" lives near me, not near her. I don't dare do a Google search to find out.). I don't know if they're seeing each other. If so she is being respectful and not sharing that with anyone.
We're both not posting to social media. I think it's an unspoken rule that we both know the other person would see it, and we aren't trying to show off how "happy" or "unhappy" we are. Social Media is always a lie.
I've said it before and it's still how I feel: I want for this to be a separation, not a divorce. I know I can't just decide that but I'm putting it out into the universe. I'm finding the space good for me, and I'm hoping it's good for her. We both had some areas to grow in and I'm really trying to use my time wisely. But I also think she is my teammate and my lover, and I don't want to lose her. I can go NC, but I'm still hoping that it's not forever.
So I'm back to thanking you FlySolo. What you said was very kind but it also made me pause in my moment of rage and insanity. I struggle so much with this but I honestly want nothing more than to be respectful of W. I know that she's not having the time of her life with this process - no one in their right mind would. So I have to center myself every day and remember that the first line of our vows "I take you as you are. Who you are now, and who you will be". Because even if we truly do separate and are not a couple, I meant those vows. I wish to honor W's path, even when it doesn't align with my own. I respect her too much not to.
This is such an awesome and inspiring post, Yail. Thank you.
How well I understand the difficulty of trying to integrate these two seemingly mutually exclusive impulses:
(1) to continue to love W and to stand by your commitment to her; and
(2) to love so much that you graciously accept her choice to walk away to pursue her joy as she views it.
Your own choice to abide by your vow to accept her as she is, even as she goes through her journey, is beautiful ... and painful. Regardless of what happens, I trust the strength evidenced by this choice will get you through the pain,
Hugs and prayers.
Hi Paco, thank you for the lovely note.
It's true, it is such a struggle. I'm so frustrated with this situation, as we all are. I find I need to refocus my mind several times a day. Mostly I focus on what my next steps are for me. What do I want to accomplish in my life, and I try to focus on that. I try so hard not to focus on W because she is not something I can control.
But when it comes to my W I also remember that I wasn't wrong in choosing her to be my partner. I didn't make a mistake. I still think marrying her was the best thing I ever did. It just may not have been forever. That part remains to be seen.
When I remember the first 9 years I know in my gut we will find our way back to each other again. When I remember the past few months I know we will not. So my head is still in limbo despite W's calmly firm words. My heart wants to see the future so I can potentially close it up and protect it. I insist that it stay open a while longer.
Have you read War and Peace? I did once several years ago. I just recently purchased it so I could read it again. I love Tolstoy. But what I remember most from reading it the first time was the Epilogue. I personally do not believe in God, but after reading the whole book and the Epilogue I remember looking up and thinking, "Oh my gosh. He just proved the existence of God through logic". Now, I don't know if I read it correctly the first time. I could be mis-remembering. But I do remember that Tolstoy brings forward the meaning to life through this specific work. BUT you have to read the whole thing - all of War & Peace - in order to read the Epilogue.
So that's the next method I will use to refocus my thoughts and emotions.
Dostoevsky resonated in my soul in a way Tolstoy never did. My beliefs conform more to the former's existentialist views.
Because friends know I pray, go to Mass almost daily, and read the bible, they assume I am an orthodox believer. I am not. God is simply my abbreviated way of referring to core beliefs defining me and giving my life purpose. Even as I go through this most difficult phase of life, my existential commitment to my beliefs dictate my behavior. And I try not to impose these beliefs on others.
Regardless, whether God or Godless, Dostoevsky or Tolstoy, I believe you and I are both digging deep to respond to our respective W's departure in a way that maximizes our integrity. I guess that's all we can do. For me, trying to stay in touch with this core--in a prayerful, contemplative way--is the only way I can modulate the emotional roller coaster.
From everything you've said, staying "open a while longer" seems the appropriate and courageous stance.
Sending you positive energy over virtual space, Yail. If you can find the time, please do the same for me.
I truly meant what I said, I am in awe of the compassion and understanding you show your W. I would not beat yourself up too much about the temporary set back emotionally. We are all flawed and sometimes we regress back to our baser instincts - which is to immediately react based on the impact on us without examining the wider motivations of those that hurt us. Thankfully these feelings are normally a reaction to something and (for me, now) pass quickly. It helps that I can now walk away when these feelings hit, sit quietly, compose, and then start each day anew.
I cannot speak to your W's motivations, I can only think of it in terms of what my motivations would be. And honestly, there have been times throughout when I have wanted to break all financial ties - sell the house, splits the assets - because (sometimes) I think it would be easier to move on. Clean break. Anyway, something to think about.
What you said about not regretting choosing your W reminded me of something a friend said (I am summarizing many conversations into a single sentence):
"Our wedding day is still the best day of my life. I loved him completely and I know he loved me. We both changed. I will never regret having met him. I could not be with him now".
That to me is moving on with love.
I too am taking the "stay open" stance, but am extending it to "staying open to all possibilities: the possibility of a reconciliation with my H, the possibility of starting a new relationship and also the possibility of being on my own for a while longer". I am letting things unfold as they will.
Jumping into the god conversation. In another life I have read Tolstoy and Dostoevsky but found they tried to hard to intellectualise things. I like the way the divine is described in the Color Purple - I can't remember the exact words but it went along the lines of "It pisses God of if you walk past the color purple and don't notice it". I don't identify with any set religion, but I feel the divine in nature and in all things which bring me a sense of peace - anything by the impressionist, a beautiful handmade wooden chair and in the smiles of my children. I know there is something greater than me. It is not good or evil, it just is. If there is a silver lining in all of this (and there are many), it is that I have come to appreciate the beauty and simple pleasures that life has to offer. I notice now and in noticing, I have felt the presence of 'god'.
Paco and FS -thank you for your notes. I don't want to leave them unanswered. I'm finding I need to step back for a few days to really ruminate over some stuff in my life.
Short story is that I've found myself in a strange land of having an intense crush on someone and attempting to reel in my emotions. I know logically that I'm at a particularly vulnerable place, and need to stay the course in processing my grief over my M. However, these new emotions put a wrench in my calm intent to stand for my M.
I have not done anything and the person I'm crushing on is not pursuing either. She is likely unaware, which is good, so this is a crush from afar. On one hand it's nice to have the feelings of a crush - it's exciting, and human. On the other hand, I do of course love my W and I'm struggling to prioritize an unknown future over short-term fun. It's difficult when I'm so frustrated with W and what she has done to not just walk away completely.
I'm happy enough being "single" (separated), and have no desire to date. I don't want a R with anyone other than W in the near future. I'm quite clear with myself on that.
I'm just working on keeping this crush as a mental-only thing. A fun little distraction in my mind only. I still wish to stay committed to the M until at least our 6-month separation point. That's the point we can be legally D, and I do not know if W will have proceeded with this process or not. Right now we're at the 4-month S mark. I feel that's the point in time for me to check-in with myself on how I'm feeling.
Again - Paco and FS - I'm thinking of you both. I'm going to take a few more days off then come back and consider and comment more on what you have both written. For now, I'm going to buy some hair dye. New me
Take care Yail.
It is absolutely fine to be crushing on someone.
It means you are still alive.
I am in the same place and somewhere different at the same time.
I received an email from W that just has me wanting to curl up in a ball and cradle my broken heart. It was a polite, clear, kind email on logistics about selling the house and proceeding with divorce. I just don't want this.
I had hopes that we could remain separated but not pursue D since that's not what I want. I had hopes W might change her mind in a year, and that in the meantime I'd build my life up and focus on myself. This email from W is the first mention of D since she asked for one in November, so I had hopes we'd just let it go without progress in that area.
Maybe that's me burying my head in the sand. It might be.
So while W sent this email the thing I have to keep reminding myself is that nothing has changed. W still wants a D. I knew that. So her stating it in email should not send me for a tailspin - this is the same information I already knew. W talking to me about plans to sell the house is not new - it is exactly the same conversation we've been having. So why does this feel like a fresh wound?
I don't know. Maybe just because it might mean we really are moving forward with the D. It's another solid step. W is a "doer" - one of the many things I love about her, because she balances me. I'm the "processor" - I think things through to a fault. Both of us could stand to move towards the middle a bit more in our respective approaches. So since W is a doer I should not be surprised that she's not sitting on this decision and that she's not outwardly wavering. I have no idea what she may be thinking, and I really won't pretend to try.
I'm focused on what I am thinking and feeling. I'm thinking that perhaps I'm scared - I don't know. I don't feel scared, but I'm sure it's there. I'm feeling hurt that the person I gave my heart to doesn't want it, and handed it back to me. I'm feeling desperately lonely in all of this, but I know that will pass. I'm feeling so incredibly heartbroken and sad that the person I chose very, very carefully to be my life partner is not choosing me back.
I don't know where the story goes from here, so I keep that in mind too. There are so many situations on the board that were exactly where I am now and they turn around for the better in a myriad of ways. I still want it to turn around in a very *specific* way that involves reconciling. I haven't moved past that, and I'm not pushing myself to.
I happened to have therapy today which was good timing. My therapist paused, and told me she was torn on encouraging me to emotionally move on or encouraging me to stay. She can see emotionally I'm still very firmly in "stay". She acknowledged that due to the fact we have only be S 4 months she can see why, and she understands my feelings on not being ready to try to move on. I think she pulled back from advising me to move on because she can see that I'm processing this all and not remaining stuck.
I guess there's a difference between "staying" and "stuck". I'll need to keep that in the forefront of my mind as I work through this.
I know it has a finality to it, but in reality, what difference to the way you are living your life today would a D make? You would still be focusing on yourself and trying to make a life for yourself. This doesn't change that.
I asked myself a long time ago would it make any difference to how I lived my life if I knew 100% that he would be back in a year or if I knew 100% that we would be D in a year, and the answer was no. I would still be doing exactly the same things. I would be going to the gym, fostering friendships with women, going out for drinks with work mates, and trying to find out who I am. My desire to find myself is not, and should not, be linked to the decisions my H makes about his future.
I don't know where the story goes from here, so I keep that in mind too. There are so many situations on the board that were exactly where I am now and they turn around for the better in a myriad of ways. I still want it to turn around in a very *specific* way that involves reconciling. I haven't moved past that, and I'm not pushing myself to.
I get this. I see others who came after me moving past their spouses in positive ways. I am not there. Maybe it's me, maybe it's my sitch, maybe it's because my H keeps me where I am. I don't know and for a large part it doesn't matter. I (and you) need to stop comparing our timelines with other people's timelines. We will move on when we are ready. For some, it's opening themselves up to the possibility of someone else being out there, for others, it's the D papers that extinguish that last bastion of hope. Something will happen, and your mind will switch. It might be that your W chooses to R and you decide that that isn't what you want after all. Don't push yourself to be somewhere you are not ready to be yet.
Thank you FS.
I asked myself a long time ago would it make any difference to how I lived my life if I knew 100% that he would be back in a year or if I knew 100% that we would be D in a year, and the answer was no. I would still be doing exactly the same things. I would be going to the gym, fostering friendships with women, going out for drinks with work mates, and trying to find out who I am. My desire to find myself is not, and should not, be linked to the decisions my H makes about his future.
This is exactly right and thank you for the reminder. It's true too. I don't think I would make any different choices in my life if I knew W was coming back or if I knew she wasn't. I am taking my career and my attitude by the reins in a way I hadn't before and I don't intend to let them go ever again. I am really opening up socially which feels wonderful. Your paragraph above is the reminder I need to keep myself in check. Perspective.
I think it's still the undefined future that I'm mourning, and the fact that she may not be in it. I don't "need" her in my everyday, as I'm proving to myself now. I find success on my own. I just want her there, by my side.
Of course, I do mean "The Original W". Who she was for the bulk of our R. I've been chatting with Paco about how hard it is to let go when our WAWs are being kind. In my mind I see W as she should be - strong, confident, loving. I've conveniently forgotten about the 6 months I was on eggshells when she was mentally waffling between staying and going.
I'm in la-la land over here just wondering what the future holds. I know it's not something I can see. That drives me crazy.
W is coming to the state this weekend and we will discuss both logistics of D and selling the house. We will be meeting at the house, which W has not been in with me since November when she stayed one night.
On one hand this is my space right now, and I hope I draw strength and confidence from that. I wonder what her emotions will be stepping foot into the space that used to be her home and where she really was happy once with her soon to be wife and life partner. I know, can't speculate.
I wonder if she will waver at all in the conversations she wishes to have with me on these two sensitive subjects. I know, can't speculate.
I wonder if I will see any emotion from her, or if we will somehow wander into an unintended R conversation. I know, can't speculate.
I see similarities in all sitches here on the board, which some days gives me strength. I see couples come back from the brink due to a twist of fate, or even just the passage of time.Then I look at ours and it feels so different and so unique (I know, it isn't). I wonder if someday we will be one of the couples that finds our way back. I know, can't speculate.
There aren't as many NC/low contact couples on this board. Some days it is easier. But somedays the expanse of unanswered "what is going on with you?" questions is so hard. I have no barometer.
FS was correct when she said we shouldn't act any different if we KNEW our S would return or KNEW they wouldn't. I'm not doing anything different in my life. I have plans for what is next in my life, and I actively participate and grow. That doesn't change. But this future-reading is something I struggle with. Especially around the D. I feel like that's a line in the sand I don't know that W would ever walk away from. But I don't know. I never thought we'd get here either - reading the tea leaves is sucking me in.
I struggle with wondering if D = the end. I know not always. I know some truly do reconnect. I know if we got a D right now I wouldn't be done - but I'm not sure how I'd proceed with that. If I'm D and we are NC ... am I really going to wait even if I know W is worth it? Worth it - but not guaranteed. How do you balance that?
I suppose all I can do is focus on my 180s and how I interact with her.
I know what I want out of moving forward regarding the house and property. I will listen to her proposal, and know what does and does not work for me. I will not be shy in clearly stating these needs if they differ from hers. We are both reasonable about this subject.
I will not walk on eggshells around her. This is my #1. When the M started to crumble I wanted to do anything to save it, so I ended up hiding and being overly enthusiastic about whatever she wanted. No more.
I will truly listen to what W is saying, and show I am listening through validation. I ignored her pain for too long thinking it wasn't so deep. She tried to hide it from me so I pretended I didn't see it. That didn't work for us.
I want to temp check, but won't. I will watch for subtle clues. What subjects does she talk about, or avoid? Eye contact? Body language?
I will not talk about me to "fill the space". Less a 180, more just a conscious way to keep her talking. That sounds manipulative but I just know nothing about her - and I want to know where she is at. Is she still angry? Hurt?
Hi Yail
Sounds like you are having a hard time of it right now. It's OK. We all get sucked back into the tunnels sometimes. I can hear your pain and your need to desperately understand your W and make sense of all this. Sometimes there is no reason that will make sense to you because we are dealing with emotions and not logic. Your W sounds like a good person, who is (in her own messed up way) trying to do the right thing, in her mind live her authentic self, and cause as little hurt to you as she can. Be glad of that. There are others here who have lived with people who have done unspeakable things in the name of 'finding themselves'.
There aren't as many NC/low contact couples on this board. Some days it is easier. But somedays the expanse of unanswered "what is going on with you?" questions is so hard. I have no barometer.
Seeing them every day does not give you a window into their souls. It does not provide answers. I have to try and not read into his every word and action because otherwise I would go crazy trying to interpret: "What was behind that look", "What did he mean when he said X", is he angry?, is he lonely?, is he happier now?. It doesn't help so I push the thoughts away and try and do my best to live my life with no expectations from him. Sometimes I think it would be easier not to see him as I am less anxious that way. There are pros and cons to both. Yes, you don't have a barometer but you are also not dissecting interactions, sensing a small glimmer of hope in an unexpected smile or recoiling to lick your wounds when they say something that reminds you you are no longer together.
I struggle with wondering if D = the end. I know not always. I know some truly do reconnect. I know if we got a D right now I wouldn't be done - but I'm not sure how I'd proceed with that. If I'm D and we are NC ... am I really going to wait even if I know W is worth it? Worth it - but not guaranteed. How do you balance that?
You live your life. One day after the next, one step in front of the other, one breath at a time. You will build a life Yail. And it will be a wonderful one. Is D the end. Only if you stand down. And you might do. You might be out one day and realise that you are no longer standing. You will be out with friends, or sitting in a park reading a book, or holding hands with another woman, and you will know you have stood down. Let it be. I know it's tough. I miss the last phone call of the day. The kiss on my shoulder before I fall asleep. Winding down after putting the kids to bed, cuddled together on the sofa. But these things are gone. And I have to remember how to live. So do you.
Big, warm hugs to you, Yail.
You strike me as someone who oozes with smarts, compassion, empathy, and decency. I don't know if your W will eventually realize how lucky she was. If she does not, I know someone else will...some day.
It's very hard. Neither of us is "out of love" with our respective Ws. I think, based on what you have shared, each of us believe we found our soulmates.
You say: "I ignored her pain for too long thinking it wasn't so deep. She tried to hide it from me so I pretended I didn't see it. " Go easy on yourself. During early days, I would beat myself up, assuming blame. Now I realize that my W is very much a product of her upbringing. Not much deep, emotional issues was shared within her childhood family. I accept now that W wasn't hiding things from me deliberately; she just didn't have the tools to process her pain, nor did I have the tools to see this or respond to this as I now wish I did.
Your intention to focus on her needs is a good one. I don't think it's contradictory to be aware of and to accept your own emotional needs, while loving her so much that you want only what is best for her. (At least in my own sitch, that's what my soul keeps telling my heart.)
Thank you FlySolo and paco. It's the moving forward into D land conversation that has me riled up. I'm aware of it, but I'm still just so emotionally achy this week. I feel like my body is trying to reject this idea. "Divorce?!? Yail and W??? NEVER!!!" I've been needing to vent, so I come here. Sorry you guys get the brunt of it
I said this to folks in my personal life, but it's true. I am so incredibly grateful for my job right now. I've had some "eh" jobs in the past with really bad support networks that just sucked my soul out. I am currently in an incredibly supportive environment with people I legitimately admire, have fun with, and they support me. I am told daily what a great job I do in my roll - I've finally found a good fit for me. I am encouraged to seek out that "next level". There are literally hundreds of people I haven't met yet, so the potential to continue to increase my social circle is built in. If I wasn't in this positive space during my days I don't know what I'd be doing right now. Thank goodness and bless that work-family I have right now.
It's very hard. Neither of us is "out of love" with our respective Ws. I think, based on what you have shared, each of us believe we found our soulmates.
Interesting, paco. Although honestly I really don't believe in soulmates. I just thought I found a really fantastic match. And I took SO long to be sure this was a good match. I really processed this very slowly to be sure. And then we just got married and BOOM.
***
I had an "OH F----" moment the other day. I was with my friend and we were catching-up. After we parted, friend text me. She very kindly pointed out to me that she didn't feel I was really listening to her very well during our convo, and she didn't want to be mad so she wanted to be sure she was honest with me about her feelings.
This is a valued friend so I of course seriously considered what she told me and apologized and owned up to my behavior. She was right. But it made me wonder if this is more of a habit than I think it is. At first I wondered if I'm just in kind of a bad selfish phase because I feel like my life is blowing up, and I'm desperate for help from friends. But I'm not sure that's the whole story. I'm trying to tune in to myself now. I think it might be a major life improvement I need to focus on.
I do know I tend to be a "fixer" in conversation. Always offer advice, even when not asked for.
Yail, let me tell you how to fix that tendency of yours to be a fixer. (joke)
I know what you mean. Sometime ago, FSolo shared the insight that sometimes, one just has to be present and listen. On this board, I get impatient with folks who seem to jump in with comments without fully understanding what I've written. And then demand answers. It seems almost self-serving.
So let me just listen and affirm. Great to hear about the joy you find at work. May you continue onward and upward.
I'm familiar with what you mean about the self-serving piece. Most of the people in my life...we have a deep rooted need to be "right". I just grew up on a family where we all had to give our opinions on every topic - maybe those conversations were our ways of bonding? Showing we care? when I'm with my family we all are happy with this dynamic. It feels natural to me, as if that's how communication should happen.
But I could see how others in my life would find this undesireable if I am constantly advising what they should do.
So I guess that's the piece I need to be particularly aware of as I move forward in listening to people in my life. It's a really good focus for me.
Hi Yail,
Thanks for commenting on my sitch. It is tough dealing with the loss in so many ways.
I liked how paco said you oooozed with smarts. lol. Right on right there.
Yail, I feel you on the emotional achy part. Someone at my work asked me if I was depressed because I said my back has been "achy." I think the apartment hunting, this house selling, my family splitting soon, W being happy about it, and I'm gritting down and making the best of it and putting my best smile on like its a country song, it's all too much.
Campus is my home now. I've worked here about a year and a half, and over the past 6 months or so I've started to feel like I'm a critical team member. Since W moved out, I find myself seeking out campus activities I can participate in, seeking out ways I can connect to these great coworkers, and seeking out meaningful interactions with students.
It's wonderful. It really, really is. I feel like I'm seen, I feel like I'm heard. I want to volunteer and put in the work to make this place vibrant for the students, because it makes ME feel vibrant. I never wanted to be an educator (I'm not - I'm staff), but I have found that college is such a great age group of young adults to work with. I remember so clearly my own passion, and I watch these bright students fight for their own voices to be heard.
I manage a team of 4 or 5 students which is my own little squad of kick-butt kiddos. I think they all feel very comfortable coming to me with questions and problems (I hope). I do have one who needs a bit of managing - he's young, he is making some mistakes and needs some guidance. It's good for me to develop these skills in how to critique others while still being encouraging. I think I'm doing okay by him, but I still seek out support from other managers when I want recommendations.
Several months ago I was filmed as part of the staff LGBTQA Alliance. The alliance is making a short film where we talk about our experiences being queer and on campus from the "adult" point of view. I was proud of myself for speaking up and volunteering to be videotaped. Next up I've signed-up to tell my Coming Out story to the LGBTQA Student alliance. The club leader put out a special plea for staff/faculty participation to balance the student stories. I'm nervous but excited about telling my own story to these kids - because I was also in college when I came out to my family. It's a defining moment in anyone's life.
Of course, as Femme woman I "come-out" nearly daily. Folks would not know I'm gay looking at me. Just yesterday we had a snow storm and a coworker joked that I'd have to get my husband to plow our driveway. *Sigh*. Wrong on both counts. Not a Husband, and not really married right now. It was an honest mistake, but kind of sobering for me.
Today I spent half the day in the gorgeous library doing my own homework. Tomorrow I'm going to support one of the college's sports clubs. What a great Sunday plan. It's the crazy time in the semester where all offices start to really ramp-up production, and you start to really feel the energy as students are busting their butts to get to the finish line. I love the energy. I love the snow melting and the buds on trees. I love that on Monday there's an informal "get coffee and chat with coworkers just for fun" meeting that is on everyone's calendar.
What a great community I'm part of.
I love this update Yail. You are doing so well. And yes, you are part of a great community. I am glad that you are throwing yourself into it.
((hugs))
There is so much great stuff in these posts, everyone. There were a lot of things said by all of you that I will try to comment on later this evening in greater detail.
I love that all of you are aware that there is nothing you can nor should do to convince anyone to change.
I love that even though you have this tremendous weight of these sitches on you, you still are moving forward with your life, learning from your past mistakes, and making life-changing improvements in the present.
You are doing things that make YOU happy. That is what matter right now. Whether our WAS/WS take notice is completely out of our control. The sooner we can accept that, the sooner and faster we can heal.
[Right now documenting my gratitude and happy moods is more beneficial than ruminating on the "what ifs" in my life. I've done quite a bit of seeking answers over the past few months, and I'm in need of a break. Right now I'm trying to truly just step back from the mental overdrive.
I spent the afternoon with future SIL and BFF. We went to the college sports game where we happily sat in the sunshine and casually observed a sport none of us knew the rules to. It was great. BFF brought her lovely daughter who is a "threenager". She went from cranky to thrilled in 2.3 seconds. And then back again. So fascinating! The lives and emotions of toddlers make me smile.
Sundays tend to be homework days, which I procrastinate on every week. I'm currently having temper-tantrums (maybe I'm the three-year-old?) over why I need to learn PHP when HTML5 is the new standard. If someone would like to enlighten me, that would be great. But from what I'm seeing, HTML5 is the new standard for responsive web pages, so why am I learning how to bring PHP in with XHTML. Seriously - does anyone know!?
But after my Javascript classes, this class is a walk in the park. Which makes me think I was on the right track with focusing on Javascript - it seems to be a better challenge for me.
This is my last class for a while, then I'll take the summer off to focus on work. Next fall I'm considering moving to the software side of things, and picking up some Java and C# at the suggestion of SIL. I'm a bit nervous for that - I hear Java can be a challenge. But then there's my favorite quote that always keeps me motivated as a young woman in Tech....
“The vast majority of machines are still designed, built, driven and fixed by men. Therefore, they cannot be that complicated.” - Ivan Coyote
Yail,
On the server end of my site, mysql does all the heavy lifting in terms of database management. Will HTML5 allow the same level of interactions with databases (e.g. searches, queries, and the like)?
See now THAT is a legitimate answer I was looking for! Good point.
My class has a less-than-stellar textbook, so this very basic question was not answered. This gives me a great jumping off point for some further reading.
Thank you!!
Yail,
This stood out on your first post of your new thread:
I've said it before and it's still how I feel: I want for this to be a separation, not a divorce. I know I can't just decide that but I'm putting it out into the universe. I'm finding the space good for me, and I'm hoping it's good for her. We both had some areas to grow in and I'm really trying to use my time wisely. But I also think she is my teammate and my lover, and I don't want to lose her. I can go NC, but I'm still hoping that it's not forever.
I quote the above because I have felt the same way earlier in the year as you do now. And while I cannot put into words as to the reasoning for that mindset, I do know the feeling you are describing. I am not sure if your feelings have wavered between not wanting a divorce and wanting the divorce as fast as possible, or anything in between. I know those feelings will swing back and forth for a long time, even after the paperwork has been filed.
What I do see is that you are still in love with her. There was an article I googled that showed me what "being in love" is versus "love". (To find it, google "in love" and find the link "6 Differences Between Loving Someone and Being In Love"). And from my viewpoint, there is nothing wrong or weird with having those feelings. Further, as R2C and AS have informed me before, there is always hope of reconciling and getting back together. As long as you feel you have hope for that, then you will always have a chance.
I also recognize that you are putting forth the effort of detaching from her. Holy crap, it's difficult isn't it?!? But do you also see that as you continue to detach and work on focusing your mind and body on other things like self-improvement, improvement of your environment, improvement of your connections to family and friend that you see and feel a change in yourself? A change of being a stronger, better, happier version of you? A Yail who can look at her self in the mirror and say "I am a wonderful, kickass, strong, attractive woman. If my W does not see me for the great person I am, then some other lucky person will."?
If not, then you should work on changing your mindset towards that.
From my viewpoint, you already are on your way. Don't give up. Keep up the growth. Keep up the hope.
Phoenix, what a lovely note. It's true that I still do love W in some very strong ways. But I don't see this as being in conflict with loving myself - and right now I absolutely am making decisions based on what "I" need (no longer what "we" need). I make these decisions unapologetically.
Yes, detaching is difficult. Because a large part of my brain is still in "we" mode. I catch myself in language. I say to friends, "come over to our house" when it is not "our" house. I have to re-write my future and that's a tough pill to swallow.
I've written this before, but I really do feel that when W moved out my emotions exploded in both directions. I feel a deeper sadness than I've ever experienced but also very high positives sometimes. It's like I woke up. I was living in a happy little mundane world without really feeling I was part of it. Now I'm a participant and the trade-off is that I feel this incredible pain every daywhile also feelingthis incredible sense of power at the openness in the world and all the possibilities ahead of me. Boy, I sure wish I had this feeling while still with W.
I do look in the mirror and genuinely love myself. I am absolutely kick-ass, and I have the funky new haircut to prove it:) I am working on bringing this self into other people's lives in non-romantic ways. My greatest growth right now is being social. I was a painfully shy child but as an adult I genuinely like people. Having nice interactions and helping people in my job is allowing me to grow in a way I never thought I'd really get to.
This note you wrote me is so kind and wonderful Phoenix. Thank you. I feel like I'm hearing a new you as well ( I do keep up with your sitch). You seem to also be turning corners every day. We all do the 2 steps forward and 1 step back dance but you seem to be stepping forward, forward forward and doing so with genuine interest in self improvement. So happy for you.
Be well.
I second Phoenix note. You are doing wonderfully Yail. Post BD, we do everything we can to try and win our spouses back, but find that winning them back comes second to winning ourselves back. You are on your way there.
The two steps forward one step back dance will continue until we either R (and then a new dance begins) or we drop the rope. None of us know which path our journeys will take until we get there.
Head up, back straight and as much bounce in our step as we can muster, until we do.
Be well too Yail. You really are kick-ass.
None of us know which path our journeys will take until we get there.
What an interesting thought for me to turn about in my brain. I hadn't really thought about this. I think so often we move forward with some kind of bull-headedness of "THIS is the direction I'm going now!". Some folks that's fighting for R, some folks that's fighting for D. I think a lot of folks feel the need to fight through this.
How interesting.
Right now I'm going to start experiencing a great transition in my work life. I've written about how I love my job right now and that's true. I have one amazing coworker who is going to be retiring in May, and he put us all on notice at the beginning of the year. He will be missed by all. Now I learn that another coworker - my boss - is also retiring. I work on a pretty small team so these two retirements will be a great change in my work-world.
Some people are nervous about this. I think the best description to what I'm feeling is "intrigue". I wonder what will happen next? I wonder how my role, or my fit might change. I wish to continue doing my good work, but if there's an opportunity for any kind of growth I'll leap on that too.
I'm not in turmoil, and I'm not experiencing chaos...but I am experiencing a great deal of change all at once. It's interesting.
My nails are a shiny jet black and long. Not the short unpolished look I used to wear.
If I'm not showing off my undercut I have wild dark curls that frame my face, and a strong mauve lipstick. More and more I'm wearing sleek black clothes. I love my sports jackets. I make an entrance in the room because I'm the only one at work that has the clip-clip-clip of pumps. Heels every day.
Some days I don't smile and allow people to move out of my way because I have $*** to do. I power through the workload on my desk. I look my colleagues in the eye, execute my job precisely, and catch small details that could easily fall by the wayside. I march myself to my colleagues' offices to find answers because if I waited for everyone to answer the phone or respond to an email my job would never get done.
These are the days I have a gate around my heart. I don't allow anything to touch it because it needs time to heal.
Some days I'm all smiles. I meander between cubicles and listen to what's new in everyone's lives. I laugh loudly and authentically. I drink too much coffee or tea and make secret inappropriate jokes. I fake-complain that people don't understand how to work with our department, but then secretly smile when I can solve their problems. I daydream about technology upgrades and write documentation on how I hope to improve our systems. I plan for the future.
These are the days I am strong enough to let the world in.
I'm unapologetic. Both versions of Yail, I'm unapologetic.
I write this all because sometimes I need to visualize myself being strong. Sometimes I'm not. But I know I can be, and the more I remind myself of my power the more good days I have.
The conversation W and I were supposed to have last weekend took place just now. She came to the house for about 30 minutes. Very even keeled conversation about D and selling the house. For the most part.
And then a statement from her that turned me on my head. That she didn't want this D either, but she got the sense from me that I was "moving on" over the past few months.
Record stop.
Wait, what? You got the sense I'm moving on after you asked for a D? Yes. Of course. So I told her point blank, "I'm moving on because I have to. I have no choice. When someone asks you for a divorce you don't fight it. But I still had and still have fight in me (for this R), but I have to respect you asked for a D".
I was on the verge of anger, and she backed off right away, "Yes. You're right. I'm sorry, you're right. I shouldn't have said that".
I wish I added, "When your wife tells you she doesn't love you anymore, how long am I supposed to fight and plead?". I didn't say it, but I wish I got it off my chest.
She feels we just want different things out of life. There wasn't a point for me to disagree with this statement, though I strongly disagree with this statement. I think we want some different things out of life possibly. I just don't know that for sure.
I went in to the conversation not wanting to have a R conversation, but now I just have so many things I want to say to her about what went down between us the past year.
Earlier in our conversation she asked me how we should proceed with D. I told her she'd need to file since I didn't want it. I think that surprised her.
Our conversation re-cap was how we were moving forward with selling the house and she'd proceed with D.
She left and my first instinct was to send her an email about how frustrated I was. I didn't. That she might be right we want different things, but how could I POSSIBLY know that for sure when she cut me out emotionally starting last spring. We didn't talk about these very important things. We both sealed up our emotions. I take a lot of the responsibility for not being able to talk things through but a great deal of it lies with her as well.
So she's moving forward with the D. It's strange - I feel a pang of hope and I'm trying to squash it. After this conversation where we talked above definitely divorcing, I feel like a tiny door was opened with us both admitting we didn't want it. That we need to hash-out our poor communication and talk about why we shut each other out. But now is not the time. We're too raw. I think we need to sit with what was said today.
I didn't beg or plead with her - I'm not that person anymore. I wasn't mopey or weepy. But I did cry, and so did she. And I did tell her exactly what I thought about not wanting to proceed with D. She can't claim ignorance on that point any more.
Does she not know that I'm still so in love with her? I don't think she does.
When she files maybe I'll let her know exactly what I think. Truly apologize for my part of the M crumbling. Lay it on the table. But not now. Now I think we both need to think about what it meant for us to see each other again. What were the emotions stirred up?
In a hypothetical world: would I move to W's new state to try for a R? This isn't on the table at all. But it's kind of like my own barometer to my feelings. Because this was one of the big pieces of us wanting different things in life. Would I uproot my life for a chance to have an "us" again?
I can't answer that now. I think the potential is there in the long-term. When this new job was being discussed last year I wish I seriously considered us talking about temporarily living in different states as a transition time period. I couldn't see it then, but that would not have been the end of the world. I could see us doing that now - start to slowly talk more and do a long-distance and very slow thing. Why am I seeing this when we just had a full conversation about divorce!? Why am I feeling hope???
But there is so much hurt - especially surrounding the fact that I know she had an EA, and still unconfirmed PA. I don't think she sees what this actually did to me.
I have a weird feeling she might send me an email after today. Maybe not. But I get this sense she has unsaid things too.
My entire understanding of where W is in her life has changed.
A follow-up, now that my emotions have stabilized.
W said she was sorry we got to this place of proceeding with D. To her it is inevitable, there is no way around it. She sees no possible way forward with us together.
OK. I can see that from her perspective. I'll file that away into information I learned.
From what I gather in some things she said, she sees us wanting different things in life. I know from past conversations that she wants a career that consumes her and she is needed in. I also respect and see her point in this. I watched her struggle for 2+ years in jobs that didn't speak to her. But what she doesn't know is that I want that too - and her job and moving was clashing against my building my own career at my current place of employment. I had just gotten out of some poor jobs and finally had one I could grow in. I felt like she was asking me to put my life on hold JUST at the moment I was getting my footing, and that her job was more important.
I'd be lying if I didn't say that I was angry and jealous and put-out. I wanted my own career to be center stage for once.
I know now that's not what she was saying. She needed a career - was desperate for it. It feeds her. We both felt unheard by the other person.
So perhaps us wanting "different things" is more that we each wanted the same thing for ourselves - but they were in different places.
Maybe.
*******
So W said she could "sense I was moving on" over the past few months. I now wonder what she meant by that. I have given her no indication that I am moving on or stuck. Why does she say that? Because I stopped fighting for us? I stopped R talks?
******
Last night in an effort to prepare for today I took my wedding ring off. I did it right before bed to lessen the sting. I didn't want W to see that I was still wearing it.
This has me crumbling to pieces. I want to put it back on. But I don't know if I can handle taking it off again. I'm sobbing as I write this. Part of me knows I need to move on, but part of me is solidly standing tall saying in my heart, "I am married to this woman". I'm so torn. I don't know what to do.
*******
Do you all know why I'm Yail?
I don't think I've ever shared.
I'm Young And In Love.
And my heart is breaking.
*****
Oh Yail. I am so sorry that you feel like this. But you have been through worse. And you will get through this. Your feelings right now are completely understandable. You go for months with little contact, feel like you’re doing ok, and then wham, it hits you again. But, I’m although it has the same intensity it will pass much quicker. I promise - each stin hurts as much as the first, but it won’t stay as long. Feel it, understand where it comes from and then get back up and just keep going. You can do this.
Your heart is broken. But time and distance will help it to heal. You are doing so so very well. Read your gratitude posts again. What you felt on those days are still valid today, even more so. You are building a life, fostering friendships, and joining a wonderful community. You are becoming the Yail you were always meant to be.
Get up. Keep going.
I know what you mean about the ring. I took mine off the day he moved out and I regretted it every second it was off. I put it back on after Christmas. I still loved him. I am still married. I wear it because that is where I am at. Plan B maybe but I am being honest with myself. If that’s where your at, then bloody wear it. But wear it for you. Take it off when you are ready and not a moment before.
We are here with you Yail. You are young and in love and sometimes, love [censored]. But if that’s who you are, then [censored] own it. Control you. Be you. Because you are clever and inspiring and caring and kind. Those things have nothing to do with your W.
Thank you FlySolo. I somehow knew you'd have some kind and calming words for me
I'm currently at the college library doing some homework, trying to take my mind of the day. I had to get out of the house. I had a few additional realizations as the hours go by.
1) W's comment "I thought you had moved on" was likely a way for her to assuage herself of her guilt. If I'm okay then she's doing the right thing. I can't do that. I can't say she is or is not doing the right thing. I'm not trying to add guilt and I'm not trying to say I know better. I was just honest with her - yes, I'm trying to move on but it was only because of her decision. I am responding to the option she has given me.
2) Thank you for your validation that I'm not wrong for wanting my ring back on. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, to be honest. But I so appreciate you saying that the decision is only for me.
3) W's interaction with me was calmer than I have seen her in months. No anger. I sensed she still blames me for us getting to this point, but she did not come out and say this. It was how she said, "I'm disappointed we got to this point to". If I were to speculate, I'd say for her this is completely about me not supporting her desire to pursue her new job. Again, I'm not trying to say she's right or wrong - just that this is what I'm witnessing from my perspective right now.
The space may be changing her. I know it's changing me. This is neither good nor bad, it's just a natural progression of what we're going through. Neither of us will be the same.
Tomorrow is another day. I have a busy week coming up. I'm going to try to focus on that, and allow my subconscious to process this continual struggle.
Thank you again FlySolo. I hope you are well.
Today I'm speaking to everyone with an exaggerated and forced patience because I'm two seconds from either snapping at someone or publicly bursting into tears. My teammates are eyeing me cautiously because they knew I was going to see W this weekend. So far they've gotten the message that I don't want to talk about it right now. Business only, if you please.
It's a "walls up" kind of day with my heart. Move through the day as strongly as I can, I will be okay.
I'm not consciously eating less but being on my own definitely has me consuming far fewer calories than I used to in both meals and beverages. I put on a sweater this morning that came out of the wash and it shrunk a bit but boy do I look like I lost weight.
An interesting mental shift over the past couple of days. It's subtle, but I've had a couple realizations.
Having my ring off has been difficult. It stabs a bit each time I notice, but I think keeping it off might ultimately help me in moving forward.
I realized so much of my resistence to "moving on" (whatever that means, TBH) is that I have this feeling that W might "turn around" or I'll somehow miss an opportunity for her wanting to R. I feel like if she sees me moving on she would miss an opportunity to speak up about her doubts. I think this is a common LBS narrative, and I only realized I was thinking it this week. Once I realized that's what I was hanging on to it became a bit clearer that I'm waiting for something that won't happen.
Keeping my ring on was a way for me to say to myself, "See? I NEVER gave up on us". But I do think there is a bit of delusion to this mentality. Maybe it's my pride that just wants to be right in the end - that I know we had a great R.
If W does turn around I'm not gone yet. I'm not seeking a R with someone else, I'm not dating, I'm not moving. I'm still open to the idea of R. But I think I'm starting to feel the "It's not that easy anymore" feeling come over me. That she will need to ACTUALLY WANT to R which means she will actually need to speak up. She can't just slip back into life with me without those very honest and authentic conversations happening.
I'm not putting up roadblocks. I'm not shutting her out. I'm just maybe not waiting for her either. At least I'm starting to feel that shift - I know I'm not fully there yet.
It's a painful process to let go.
"As anyone who has sat in Lotus for more than a few minutes knows - it's a h3(( of a lot easier to stay than to go" - A. Gibson
Wait
I just wrote this honest post and now I realize that quote at the bottom is totally wrong. Whatever. But oops!
"‘cause anyone who has ever sat in lotus for more than a few seconds
knows it takes a hell of a lot more muscle to stay than to go." - A. Gibson
Blame it on the fact it is April and I work in academia world. We're all a bit nutty this time of year. Us and accountants.
I think my decision to take my ring off two weekends ago turned out to be the right call for me right now, despite the pain. We are still legally married, but we have barely had any communication the past 6ish months since W moved out. I need to live my life in a non-holding pattern.
I am inching my way forward with acceptance that our marriage is over. Some days it's okay. Some days it's harder. But overall I see the pattern move more towards "okay" and I am sad that I take comfort in that.
The distance has allowed me to become clear in my needs. My needs from a partner are more than W was giving me in the 5 months before she asked for D. It really was a switch from BD. Before that she truly was a wonderful loving partner. But the anger and snark and how she acted between BD and asking for the D...was not okay.
On the boards everyone always says, "Don't be Plan B" and I always have agreed. But the emotions of the LBS are so hurt that we would almost take being Plan B if it meant our M was restored. Time has allowed me to truly FEEL that I absolutely will never be Plan B. It's not rhetoric anymore. Time and space has allowed me to believe it. I take pleasure in this for any future relationship.
I am a bad@$$ mother-f'in queen. I know it. And I will be treated as such. And I will treat a true partner as such in return, and bow down to her in response.
I am inching my way forward with acceptance that our marriage is over. Some days it's okay. Some days it's harder. But overall I see the pattern move more towards "okay" and I am sad that I take comfort in that.
I remember this feeling. It was about 6 months post MO and I started to regain my life back. Like, really regain my life back. When GAL'g stopped feeling forced. I woke up early one morning and I sat outside and just cried. It was a weird feeling ... a sense that I would be OK ... and the sadness that comes with that.
I am still in the holding pattern, but I am OK with that as well. Acceptance does not mean giving up. It's just accepting there is nothing you can do to fix it.
There has been a definite shift in your posts of late. They are more hopeful and optimistic for your future. Maybe you needed that little bump in the road to realise that you would be OK.
Whilst I like this take no prisoners Yail, To me a [censored] queen is someone who has hardened her heart. The Yail I am getting to know is articulate and clever but more importantly, she is thoughtful, compassionate and kind. She has a beautiful heart worthy of being loved by someone equally clever and equally kind.
I appreciate your edits on my email - they spoke a lot about how thoughtful, articulate and kind you are (and also that you are in the academic field :)). TBH I am still waivering about sending it.
Acceptance does not mean giving up. It's just accepting there is nothing you can do to fix it.
YES. Exactly this. I have really been ruminating on this idea, and you've hit the nail on the head.
I have not and do not intend to ever shut out W from my heart entirely. I can only handle my own improvements and live my own life. And we must live in the now and accept what we have in front of us - which contains so much good. You have your children. I have...well, nothing as grand as children, but other really fun and exciting things that bring me joy.
My family, for sure. And a new-found sense of freedom and creativity.
There has been a definite shift in your posts of late. They are more hopeful and optimistic for your future. Maybe you needed that little bump in the road to realise that you would be OK.
And I'm not so naive to think there won't be additional bumps. Hopefully no major potholes. I'm sure there will be. But I will be okay, that's for sure.
Whilst I like this take no prisoners Yail, To me a [censored] queen is someone who has hardened her heart.
I hear what you're saying - but that wasn't my intent. I think I'll need some different words to express what I mean.
I guess I feel those words in a more: This is Yail, this is all of me in my wide and varied glory. I'm wonderful and also deeply flawed, and seek another person to share that human experience. I am in awe of what it means to be human and how grand we are, each of us with such power. I truly wish to honor the power that I have, and acknowledge the power that a future R partner will have.
Although, perhaps I described with those other words because I'm really digging my black nail polish. I'm digging the rock'n'roll glam look hardcore these days!
FS - as always - you're the best. Take a rest. I know there's a lot on your plate with considering your letter, but be sure you take some time for yourself where H doesn't take up mental space.
Hi Yail
I hope you don't mind me chipping in. I've been reading your thread but I don't think I've posted before. You seem to be in such a sad place. It's strange, in the midst of all the heartache and uncertainty and upheaval, how all those little things - like the wearing of a ring or not - can mean so much and cause so much internal change. I'm still wearing my ring. H took his off when he left, then put it back on again about two days later. He came to the house once to pick up the kids and I saw he wasn't wearing it and I burst into tears. Turned out it was in his pocket and he'd taken it off because he was exercising. He put it back on in front of me. I always see it on his hand now - but I don't know if he just puts it on when he knows he's going to see me so he doesn't have to deal with me being upset. That's how crazy my mind gets about it all sometimes. I am trying to get that go and get to a place of acceptance - the place you are on your way to being.
Anyway - sorry to ramble. I wish you well.
Ah, the [censored] ring ... to take it off or not take it off ... such a trivial thing, but it says so much.
I found a photo the other day of when D12 was a toddler. He was sitting next to her, look of content and concentration on his face, his left arm around the back of her chair so I could see his hand, ring shining on his finger. I never use to notice his ring before. Now, it is the first thing I look for when I look at old photos of us. That I guess is what taking something for granted means.
I took mine off and then put it back on. I am thinking about taking it off again but know that if I do, I will never put it back on again. His has been off since the day after he MO (taken off at the gym and never put back on).
I have a pretty flashy diamond trilogy ring that he bought me last year for our anniversary. About nine weeks before he moved out. I took it as a sign of commitment - that the hard times in our marriage were over and we were working on things. I remember wearing it at work and showing it to my friends and being so pleased with it. I don't wear that ring when I am in public - I'd feel ashamed, somehow, after him leaving such a short time after getting it for me. Humiliated. But I do wear it when travelling away from home and sometimes around the house at night. I think these symbolic things can support our intentions, or they can get us stuck. I don't know how it is for me. It sounds like you've made the right decision for you, Yail.
FS: Does the ring give you strength, or take energy from you? Does it cause you a flash of emotion when you notice it during the day?
I think these symbolic things can support our intentions, or they can get us stuck.
I completely agree, and that's what I was feeling. For a while my ring supported my intentions, and I wore it for that time. But when W again discussed the logistics of D, and I looked around the house I know that she is really gone. And I don't want to be stuck. So I set the ring aside.
I guess for me - the removal of the rings was about letting go, but not about moving on. I am still a believer that W and I have a shot at R in our futures. I really do. But I'm being honest with myself that now is not the future. Right now, we are not partners.
Perhaps my feelings on this are a little bit related to the fact we are a lesbian relationship. The language of "partner" implied we were a unit well before we signed the papers. So I guess I feel that our couplehood mostly lived outside of M, and the legal piece wasn't what really bound us to each other.
We were engaged for 6+ years before getting married (together 9 before M) and a part of that was due to the fact our families did not accept this union. (Honestly - we kind of waited them out. Time is a great teacher. Most family came around to accepting and loving us as a couple after witnessing YEARS of our devotion to each other. That right there is my proof that Hearts can change.)
So, I feel like I am here for W if the opportunity to become partners again presents itself. I have work to do in that area. But I need to start releasing my heart from hers so I can discover exactly what that means for me.
Honestly, I don't really think about it from one day to the next. All I knew was that not wearing it felt like a lie. The other reason was I am out a lot and I it was like a cloak of protection. Most people I meet don't know my sitch so it lets people know that I am married and stops the awkward conversations.
I am sorry that it took so long for your families to accept you. I am glad they now do - that is something immensely positive to take from your time with your W.
Not sure if you know, but I was engaged once before and we were together nearly ten years before we decided to get married. It was only when we made that decision I realized how trapped I felt - which led to my cheating on him and eventually leaving him for someone else (my H). Sometimes we focus so much on the end game, that once attained, we question our reasons for wanting it.
As an aside, I often wonder if I would have been happy with him if I had not had my quarter life crises - and the answer is yes. I would have been happy. I remember hanging on to anything anybody had to say about him which was negative and saying to myself "see you were right, he is [insert bad trait here]". I know now that the issues were with me and my own sense of self. Your W will realize this one day too. For her, like for me, it may be too late.
FS - I didn't know you were engaged before. If you have written about it I missed it. What an interesting piece of your life to look back upon. I think it's interesting to look back upon certain forks in the road, and observe what the results have been of our choices. We can never regret them, but I do think we can learn from them if we take the time to re-examine at different points in our life.
*****
I'm writing a list of all the fun things I want to do this summer, or all the things I want to try that I've never done. A list of things that will make me feel free and open to the world. It's an inspiring list full of weird oddities that perfectly suit my "Year of Yes" mentality. I'm not certain that I'll accomplish them all, but I like adding to it. I keep it in the notes section of my phone.
A new piercing. Upper helix.
Maybe a tattoo? I'm debating the location/decision on this one.
Smoke pot. Smoke cigarettes. Not to create a habit, but just because I never have.
Have parties at the house while I still live here.
Learn to play poker.
Run. Exercise. Get toned arms. Wear tank tops every day I can.
Farm. Garden.
Practice bassoon several days a week. Join an orchestra.
Buy new funky jewelry. Diamond helix hoops. A chain earring that links my established helix piercings to my lobe piercings. A pounded metal choker. Threaded earrings. Brass hoops.
Start sewing/making clothes again.
Find a metal-working class to learn to make jewelry
Get at least one good "going out" outfit. Hit the town on gorgeous summer nights. Flirt with strangers.
Get strangers to flirt with me! (and buy me whiskey!)
Ask coworkers to hang out. Talk to people. Make friends with strangers.
I'm balls to the wall this week with work and homework. But starting next weekend I can start looking forward and stop being glued to the laptop. I'm so excited.
I love your list Yail. You've inspired me. I'm going to come up with one of my own and post to my thread. Thank you.
Yail - My ex and were together from when we were children (12 to be exact). He said when we separated that he wished we'd met later in life. He was/is a good man. We had put off getting engaged for soooo long (university, starting our careers, waiting until we had a deposit) that when it finally happened, instead of feeling excited, I just felt trapped. I am not saying that is what happened with your wife. It is just what happened to me.
I love the list. You could probably cross quite a few of those off in a single afternoon ... but it may be worth drawing it out.
Why just one good outfit ?!?! buy a few sexy tops (to show off those toned arms you're going to have by summer), a great pair of jeans and some kick @rse ankle boots. Multiple outfits suitable for a host of occasions.
Cute boho dresses are also great for showing off toned arms and look great with all that jewelry your planning on buying.
I dig your list too Yail! Sounds a little edgy, awesome :-)
I had always wanted to get a tattoo but didn't because I thought it would go against my "family man" thing I had going on and my XW wasn't into it at all. After D I was like screw it, I'm going for it. I told my kids and interestingly they were all for it. So now I have a full arm sleeve, full leg sleeve and a start on the other leg. It's been expensive and really painful but wow do I ever love my ink. It's a conversation starter no matter where I go. Often I'll be somewhere with the kids and they'll say "hey he/ she wants to see your tattoos" because they'll hear someone comment on it, they seem to love the attention more than me, LOL!
Anyway my advice on tattoos, once you have an idea of what you want then do your research on local artists. Each has their own style, you don't want to go to a black-and-grey specialist with a full color tatt in mind. Find the right artist. It took me weeks of looking through online portfolios, it's amazing how many you will dismiss just based on that. If they are really good/popular then you will probably have to book months in advance so keep that in mind.
FS - you have hit on my weakness: good shoes. Yes, I want some really killer ankle boots. Haven't quite found them yet but I am on the lookout. Multiple awesome outfits is the ultimate goal, but I'll settle for just one as my bare minimum. Might have to go up to MTL.
AS - I didn't know you were tattooed so heavily! How awesome! I'm really unsure if I'll get mine, as I tend to have a big bark and no bite when it comes to permanent decisions. I'm very, very picky. Which I suppose is good - but that's really the only "maybe" on my list. I adore tattoos. I just don't know if I will commit to actually getting one this year. But I covet them.
With my new polished rock/glam look I'm really wanting my tattoos to be flowers. Not heavy on the color, but a bit. My current idea is to get something that is designed a little on the botanical side style-wise. Either on my back, or perhaps upper thigh just below the hip bone. I'm tossing these ideas around.
Re-doing my look is my favorite distraction. It's harmless, it's fun. It helps shift your thinking when questioning your identity and who you are. I think this is why so many people on this forum are really into exercise/weight lifting and changing their bodies. It is the most immediate door to change, and we are all so desperate for change when in this (bleep)-show. I'm starting to understand that.
So to everyone on the forum - let's all go get piercings! yay!
I think we all get a mental image of what others here look like. In my head you are in your 20's with a dark brown hair wavy hair cut slightly longer than a pixie cut. Slightly rock chick. Slightly boho. Slightly geeky (that's purely from the HTML conversations with Paco).
In my mental image you are kick @arse.
You talk about piercings. I have a few smallish tattoos and in my youth had multiple piercings (they've close up now). He hated all of this plus I also (use to) smoke and (being australian) I swear like a trooper. These things are 'common' (not sure if that translates over in the states, but basically it's an insult along the lines of uneducated, lower class and probably unemployed).
D12 desperately wants a second piercing. I said maybe in a few years. H told her no because "people with piercings don't get into university" ... "and people will look down on you when you're going for interviews". She's 12.
I am going to get a second piercing at the top of my right ear. I was thinking of getting the serenity prayer in italics down the middle of my back, but can't because I had a severe reaction to a black henna tattoo when I was in my 20s which triggered an allergy to all sorts of dyes.
The existing tattoos are fine. But no new ones ... urghh.
Add 10 years FS! (and I'll proudly take them!)
My hair is actually a bit past shoulder length with kind of wild, very layered curls. I have an undercut (shaved head) up to about mid-ear which is hidden when I wear my hair down. If I put my hair in a ponytail or bun you can see the shaved portion. Just above the shaved portion is a strip of platinum blond that just barely peeks out when my hair is down, but is shown off if my hair is up. It's the perfect combo of being "polished" while at work, and a bit more edge when I'm out of work. Although I wear it both ways at work. I AM a Riot Grrrl at heart. (It's a music scene. If you like screaming women in rock - that's my genre. If you listen to anything by the band Bikini Kill or Sleater Kinney you've hit on my favorite bands)
Get that piercing! I LOVE those piercings. But ugh, do they take FOREVER to heal. Where I am in the states I'm a bit closer to what we call "hipster" culture. Don't know if the same term is used where you are. The derogatory term we use that would translate to "common" would be "trailer trash" (not a very kind term).
Related to D12 and the 2nd piercing: We have a lot of discussions on campus about "professional" dress with students, and how to teach them what to expect in the workplace. But here's the part I struggle with: This upcoming generation is going to be redefining workplace culture the minute they step into it. So we can teach them what is acceptable NOW, but they are the ones who are going to live it and decide whether or not to judge their peers on dress.
So I'm sure D12 will not receive even a second thought if she chooses to get another piercing or two eventually.
If I ever me your H I'd likely look him dead in the eye, nod solemnly, and say, "Yes. I've heard about this. Women's brains slowly leak out of their ears with each added piercing. I lost 500,000 brain cells with each of these that I have. Yes, I believe keeping D12's head in tack is a priority."
I'm a smart @$$ when it comes to anyone telling another woman what to do with their own body. Soooo maybe don't do that!
I had an interesting therapy session today. I have been debating not going anymore, because I'm not spinning. I've kind of reached a point where yes, I'm sad about W leaving, but I also am moving towards accepting it and I'm generally in a good space.
(I should note: This all changes every time I hear from her. Let's keep me honest here.)
Going to IC doesn't make you not be sad. It helps you deal with the sadness. I'm still sad, but I can just deal with it.
But I now think that the once every 4-6 weeks check-in is actually kind of helpful to me, and today solidified that a bit.
I tend to work things out in my mind verbally, so talking to a therapist really helps me get to a place of understanding.
Today I was talking about how I've been really interested in my own and my friends'/family's Myers-Briggs assessments. I've been watching how these personality types interact differently with one another.
For myself, I'm an INTP. In general, I'm a "hyper-processor". I am constantly examining the world around me and considering it carefully. I don't exist much outside of my own head. I'm always analyzing everything around me. To me, the world is one giant extremely fun puzzle.
In talking about this my IC mentioned that in my case, she thinks my personality type of being a "processor" is in part what has actually allowed me to work through this difficult time. It was an interesting thought, and it gave me pause.
In my recent readings of my Myers Briggs type the personality short-comings have also helped me to refocus on areas I need to grow in. Descriptions have been pretty spot-on for me, so it's nice to have an outside view of ways in which I should focus.
I share this with everyone in case reading-up on your own personality type is helpful to you in your own healing. All types are equal but different. And maybe just being aware of our own strengths and shortcomings will lead to good growth.
Snap , I found it really interesting. Trouble is most other people around me aren’t interested , so it kinda falls flat
That might be true, Tryhard. I've found reading up on my shortcomings very helpful though. For example, I can be absentminded and forget about things that are very important to other people. So I'm trying to remember to ask folks about their lives, and follow-up to see how things are going for them.
It really is interesting stuff!
Agreed , sounds like you are growing in a good way . Love and honor, with honesty and self grit and understanding. I love it , you go gurl!
I completely get what you're saying about still being sad, but now, just being better able to deal with it. I don't see an IC (I went but didn't find it helpful) but about once a month I see a Reiki guy. I lie on a table and he realigns my chakras. There is not a lot of conversation. He does not know my sitch. He gives me a quick diagnosis at the end of areas I need to work on (communication, family relationships and unblocking me heart chakra). I come out much more grounded, and a little lighter than when I went in. Placebo maybe. But it works for me.
I did the Myers Briggs at uni, and again about 10 years ago as part of a work thing. I am an INTJ (mastermind). When we did it at work, I got an inbox full of pics of James Bond villains - why did the personality type have to be called something so grandiose - Architect would have been just as fitting and not so evil sounding !!!
Oh, well [strokes evil looking cat]
Having re-read my personality type, you are right, there are things I could work on. Being less dismissive of others. Showing an interest in things they're interested in and listening to what they have to say.
I think you're to hard on yourself. INTP is also the "Thinker".
Is it any more true than horoscopes?
Myers Briggs? I'd say yes, absolutely. Horoscope just takes into account when you're born, but Myers Briggs is an intense questionnaire that asks about your behavior and preferences. It's taking what you tell them about yourself and forming a general profile about how you respond to the world. It used to be pretty popular to do them for work-related assessments as FS pointed out.
I'd say many people find them quite accurate. Of course we still have free will...it's not like they tell us how we will act in the future.
FS: I used to be an INTJ. I switched several years ago when I took the test again. I must be on the cusp. You and I can go off and rule the world together. Can I pet my evil-looking rabbit? I prefer them to cats.
I've never done Reiki. I love how it works for you, and I'd be curious to try sometime.
I'm going to take one of those tests. I'd love to know what sort of personality I have.
Yail - I wanted to thank you again for your list. It really inspired me and a lot about your thread and the way you're dealing with things and the blunt and clear way you commented on my situation helped me too. I've made my own list. Now off to take a Myers-Brigg test if I can find one online!
Thank you again
I worked one of my favorite events on campus tonight, and I loved every minute of if. It was a senior show where these incredibly talented students showed off their absolutely astounding work. In addition to the presentation element (which packs the house every year) it is followed by a reception. Recruiters are working hard to hire these students and I'm just so proud to work here. It's an impressive program.
I executed my part of the event beautifully (I really am good at my job), and I'm quite proud with how the evening went. I really enjoyed working with the team that put it together.
But the most fun part is that I wore a little black dress. It's fitted but decently conservative. High necline, it goes to my knees and sleeveless. But it fits so beautifully now. I even passed by a young woman who was either A) an older student or B) a recruiter (I think she was a recruiter) and she totally checked me out. I've never had that happen! I was thrilled.
Add in about 4 or 5 coworkers who made comments like "Wow you look fantastic!" or even a few joking that I'm a hottie.
What a mood booster.
It's a weird place I'm in. Somewhere on the road to acceptance.
I worked hard today. Had a client that I was with me all day, and I busted my butt moving heavy furniture and running around for the client. One of those days that's very similar to when I worked in food service and catering: you're on your feet, you're sweaty, and it's non-stop until the day is done. Very physical. Had a great day working with my team.
I smell terrible. But I suppose that's a mark of a good, hard-working day. It's also the result of a polyester shirt I was wearing. Yucky.
The hard work makes me not mind working a Saturday. Working has been my refuge, allowing me the time I need to process my sitch, but keeping me also distracted. Coming home after work today was tough. I am physically exhausted, but mentally still wanting to have a fun Saturday. I don't have any plans with friends today, so I'm feeling a bit melancholy about my life. My legs are jelly making me want to curl up and stay home, but I think I might walk into town to check-out a music festival happening. I'll likely peak in the windows and keep going - I doubt I'll know anyone to join, and I don't want to sit by myself in some random concert/bar. But I don't want to sit in this empty house either.
I still sometimes wonder if W will have a turn-around in a couple years. I wonder what her heart is like these days. I still miss her.
But I have my moments of remembering when she was still here and how I was treated. Some of the bad memories are starting to resurface, and I think I'm processing them. I take a deep breath and sigh. No. My heart says "No". That was not okay. I can't pine for her now, because those actions hurt me so badly. I haven't told anyone except my therapist some of the issues, because they were private. And I wish I could talk about them more. I see just how crazy I must have been feeling to look the other way. I'm not the kind of person to accept that behavior (but I did).
I've been daydreaming about dating, and what that might be like. I don't want to. But I want to. Mostly it's in my head - the thought of what would it be like to get to know someone again? What would it be like to not fear for my heart?
Still no movement on a D from W. I almost hate to write that, because it's probably around the corner. That will still hurt tremendously. I know that I'm still hopeful it won't happen. I'm trying to have my logic override my heart. We have talked about it and I have no reason to believe she won't follow-through. I still don't want this. I want my W back. I really do. But I want a version of her that talks to me and doesn't bottle her pain. And I want a version of me that doesn't censor my thoughts and feelings. THAT I know I am getting. Every day I feel better at that part of myself.
Hi Yail
I'm with you on the heart v logic situation. I am fully aware of what I am doing in romanticising the situation and then I tell myself the reality. This is an ongoing process and has happened more frequently in the last couple of weeks. I don't want to be Divorced but don't want to be with this person. I feel repulsed at the thought of physicality and intimacy with him. I think it's just another stage. I now look back on 25 out of the 27 years without anger and thinking it was all bad. I guess I don't fully accept in my heart that this person has completely gone. Even though my head tells me it is the truth.
I too dream about dating someone new but I know I'm not able to do it. I know I wouldn't be able to cope with the inevitable rejection as my self esteem is in tatters.
I think we can just keep putting one foot in front of the other every day and see what happens Yail.
I feel like this is going to be a long one.
W came over today with a moving truck and two friends to take a bunch of furniture. She arrived first. Her voice sounded decently normal, but she wouldn't look at me. This is the first I've seen this behavior. Not that I was expecting any reaction on how I look now (hair different, very different glasses, wearing lipstick which I never used to do) but I honestly don't think she even noticed. That's how little she looked at me.
Mostly she just got to work collecting the items she was taking. Most had been agreed upon prior, and a few additional items I let her know were fine to take today. I still have plenty of furniture, but will need to do some rearranging. She was whistling a bit (which she does when she is nervous) and sniffling as if a cold (but likely trying not to cry?).
I sat in the back room doing computer work, painting my nails. It wasn't intentional, but by me painting my nails it was an obvious signal that I would not be able to help move anything. I doubt she expected me to anyway.
Her friends (H & W duo) came to help. They both used to be mutual friends. They were at our wedding. H had sold us this house. The W is a close friend of my W, and I have a strong suspicion she is an advocate for W to "find herself" or proceed with D or something. I do not think she in any way ever tried to convince W to stick with our M. This would not have changed anything, but it annoys me.
this friend has also had several rocky years with her H from what I have heard, and has considered leaving him and/or they separated for a time. I don't know the details. I don't care. But there they were today - acting as couple, helping each other move out W's [censored]. And all I could think was, "you selfish B*#$% I bet you convinced my W she needed to leave our M to find herself, all the while you wanted to do the same in your life. But here you are, and your M is still intact because you didn't want to deal with the consequences yourself."
Not very generous of me. If I have learned anything, I know that it is crazy to try to judge someone else's marriage. I have no idea what her situation is. But that was what I was feeling.
I let W know that I would be at the house for a bit, but would be leaving shortly. If she had anything to discuss with me or ask me she should let me know before I left. A few furniture questions, not much else. She will plan to come back to the house in July to get it ready to go on the market. I plan on vacating in October. At that time we will sit down and divide smaller assets which will be a tedious process. I appreciate that she has not attempted to take a single thing that was a mutual possession with out clearing it with me.
I don't know, but I'm starting to suspect W is seeing person who was OW. No proof, no indicators. Just feel like this is how these sitches usually progress, and it is therefore likely. One time today a phone was ringing (could have been any of the three of them) and no one answered it. i couldn't tell whose it was. But the idea popped in my head it might have been W's, and she wasn't answering because it was OW and she was in the house with me. Equally possible is the chance that W was outside and didn't hear the phone. So I truly have no idea. Or maybe it was one of the friends.
About a week ago I was putting clean sheets on the bed. I guess I was using a set I hadn't used in about 5 months and didn't realize. As I unrolled the sheets a pair of underwear fell out that were not mine. My world stopped.
There are several possibilities. The first and obvious - they were OWs. I'm quite sure these sheets were the ones W had brought with her to her new State when she was still part-time over there and part time at home. During this time she was staying with a friend (same one at the house today) sometimes, and later had an apartment. Would OWs underwear have been mixed up at that time? Who knows. Other possibility - they were Ws and new. This is actually most likely. They appeared to be a cheap brand (possibly Target?). She was so absent minded during that time period it is very likely she hadn't brought enough pair with her and wasn't doing laundry much so just bought a new pack. Option 3: They were this other friends, and they got mixed up in the laundry. Also likely possibility. Option 4: They were W's brothers. He stayed with us around Thanksgiving for one night, and I feel like he used these sheets on the pull-out bed. Not my place to judge if they were brothers, but I think they were technically women's though decently neutral cotton white.
I immediately threw them away and refused to get worked up about it.
Back to today. W was packing and getting more and more agitated from what I could tell. This is the most distant she has been yet. In past meetings she was just sad. But today it felt like she was pushing herself forward, and acting as if angry at me. Maybe not angry - maybe more annoyed? She didn't say anything rude and her tone was mostly neutral. I haven't done anything, so I'm not worked up about this interaction. This is all on her and I'm not playing these games.
I got the sense she is very overwhelmed by the fact she has to pack up the house, take care of her stuff, put the house on the market. Too bad.
I get the sense she feels I'm not doing anything or that I won't do anything to get the house ready. That's simply not true. I'll be getting the gardens ready and looking nice. This is for me, but also to sell the house. i'll be fixing a couple of things I haven't told her I'm going to do (restain the deck, fix a bathroom fan). She hasn't asked, and I haven't offered this information. These are my summer projects for the house i live in. These are all projects W would have historically taken on. I'm doing them because they will help me in my decision if I wish to buy a house or condo. I've lived in both, but always with W.
Her house plants, which she was so keen on taking - today she told me to dump them. She didn't want them. This is a changed behavior for sure. She loved having house plants.
She was loving towards the rabbit, who she obviously misses.
As I was leaving the three of them were in the moving truck. I just called, "I'm out" as I was leaving. W responded with a simple "K" or "Yup". That was the coldest exchange.
W has emailed me earlier this week about logistics for D. She has started paperwork and consulted a lawyer. Seems that is proceeding, though I don't know the timeline. I'm just waiting for whatever she initiates. First up is disclosing assets. We are still in agreement we will each keep our own assets and split equity of the house sale. Keep it simple and fair.
********
After all this, I ran to do errands. One of them was to go to a travel agency to ask a few questions about my upcoming trip to Italy. I leave in 3 weeks. After that I hooked up with SIL and we did some shopping. Tonight I'm going out with SIL and B after I mow the lawn. Tomorrow I hang out with BFF, then B, Mom, and grandma for mother's day.
Fun fact: It will cost me 200 euro to rent a car in Italy if manual. It would cost 800 if automatic. I am so, so grateful my dad taught me to drive a stick and that my first car was manual. It has been over 15 years but I'm sure I can do it.
So I'm focusing now on my trip to Italy and what fun I'm going to have. I have a ball of sadness in my stomach, but it's not that really tight anxiety ball that I used to get. Honestly, right now I don't see a way forward with W. I see this D proceeding and us splitting. And if we ever reconnect in any fashion I think it will be a very, very long way in the future.
Any change in dynamic between us would have to come from her. I'm not sure my ability to forgive will come as easy as it might have a few months ago. I'm really feeling the deep-down hurt these days.
I need to move on. I can't live in sadness. It goes against my nature. So i am focusing on making myself someone I am proud of. I am not looking to date, but I AM looking to open myself up to people. I would love to find a random person to make-out with (just that!) just so I can have the distraction but without the weight of a R. Maybe some flirting in my near future. Something I would have felt guilty for when partnered - I don't have that guilt any more. I need to see myself with possibilities in my future, but not make any firm steps towards an R at this time.
I am not sure how long this reply will be, or how much of it will help, but I wanted to start with there are many many days when I feel exactly how you feel right now. Facing a future on my own that I did not want, feeling confused, scared and in a strange way also, at times, optimistic about that future. Knowing that I am not ready to date and at the same time, missing that feeling of togetherness and certainty you can only really have when are part of a couple. Missing it so much that it is a physical pain deep inside me that I can't get rid of. I will tell you what I tell myself. Keep [censored] going. You are going to be fine.
Why she can't look at you
I can't tell you why your W is doing this but I can tell you why I do it. When I started DB'g I couldn't look at him. I would walk out of the room, I would talk to whatever was in the distance behind him. I did not want him to know that I was barely holding it together. I knew that if he put his arms around me I would collapse. It is a show. Remember that this hurts her. She is doing what is right for her but humans are complex creatures - there is pride and guilt mixed in with that resolve. Those emotions are easy to bury when you are living in different states barely communicating, but you're in the same house, the same house that you shared and called home, and she is moving furniture out whilst you sit in another room doing your nails. Of course she could barely get out a "K" or a "yup" - all her energy is being used up keeping it together .
BTW - yes she noticed. They always notice. They might not say anything, but they notice everything. They will put their own interpretation on it - in my case, and as my H always internets everything from a veil of negativity, it is proof that I am "wanting to make myself attractive to other people", "seeing people" or "happily moving on". Not much I can do about that. I can only control me.
And the plants - same reason as she can't look you in the eye. It hurts to do so. She is trying to show you how strong she is. In anywise, you can do what you like with them now. I would keep them (if I had a green thumb, which I don't). Greenery helps bring warmth and life to a place.
the friends
[censored] 'em. Let her do her and you do you. Don't waste your energy trying to work out the motivations of other people. It could be that they are just being there for your W or they could have been trying to sabotage your M for years. It doesn't matter. That is a tunnel you could be stuck in for years to come. Let it go. If you and your W reconcile, then you will know that you can look your W and then in the eye and know that you maintained your dignity throughout this.
the underwear
Who knows, and more importantly, you are unlikely to ever know. Could be innocent, could be proof of an A. At this stage, does it matter. How does it effect the Yail you want to be? The Yail you are becoming?
I am sorry the D seems to be moving forward. You can't stop people from doing what they will do. Sometimes you have to watch from the outside as someone destroys the life you built. Build a new one and wish her well for now.
Italy is fab. And you get to do it at your pace. There have been so many times when I've been stuck waiting for H because he wanted to look in yet another shop, or been rushed because he wanted to fit one more thing in. Go, sit in cafes, drink strong coffee, people watch. Or, if you're up in the mountains, go for long walks in the country side. Go to a wine vineyard. No matter what you do or where you go, be present and look for the beauty around you.
If you're stopping in London on your way to Italy look me up. I would love to meet Yail 2.0.
FS, thank you. I really needed to hear from you and was hopeful you'd be online today and able to respond.
I'll keep this brief because brother & SIL will be here any minute to pick me up. I'm glad I had the foresight to know I should be with people tonight.
So because I'm trying to keep my [censored] together and my mascara is going to start running in two seconds I'll add only the fun piece of info.
Italy: I plan on farming the whole time! I am about 95% confirmed with a farm in Tuscany. I fly in and out of Rome (boo no London!) but I head directly to the farm and will work at caring for animals (goats, pigs, cows, chickens, geese, ducks) and the cereals/alfalfa. No sight seeing this trip - mostly a working trip.
Winter break I spent seeking silence with myself. I needed it to mourn at that time. Now I need physical labor. I need to beat my body down to release this tension. And to do it while working with animals (who always understand more than people do) is exactly what I'm seeking.
Have a good weekend FlySolo. I'll be in touch soon. For now - a )(*(&^ ton of whiskey is in my future.
And Happy (american) Mother's Day to you! And to all the mums on this forum. Much love to you.
Italy sounds brilliant. Kind of like what I feel when I’m working out but with the beauty of the Tuscan hills and a sense of purpose other than getting fit. I’m so glad for you Yail.
And you’ll have those arms that look great in t-shirts and summer dresses.
Every time I see W and things move forward the wound is reopened. I know I'll be okay again in a day or two after calming down, and that I'm not "cycling" in the same way I was months ago. I know every step forward hurts just as bad, but a few days later I feel stronger than ever because I know I can survive and thrive.
Things in the house are still out of place since W took her furniture. Add to that the fact I'm gathering items to prepare for my trip, so I'm going through drawers I typically ignore. And I see items of W's or items that ignite a memory and I'm can't even fathom the difference that has happened so quickly.
FlySolo - you said it exactly. I am facing a future for myself that I did not want. But it was chosen for me. And I know I'll go forward and make this version of my life just as wonderful and exciting and full of love and light. But I'm still angry and hurt and so sad that I didn't have a choice in this path.
This week will be another crazy one at work (thank goodness). And when I'm not in the office I'll be 100% dedicated to working out details for my trip to Italy. I was happy and calm about the trip until today - when the anxiety around W has warped into anxiety about my trip. I've never traveled alone and it's just hitting me how independent I'll need to be on this trip. I KNOW I can do it, I just need to remind myself that I can.
Tail , keep smiling and keep putting one foot in front of the other . If you are on a journey and you keep looking behind you may trip over , stumble or get lost . Look forwards and you can see all the interesting things on the way . You can do it
Received a note from W today that she'll be in town this weekend and wanted to meet up for 10 minutes to start paperwork. My first reaction was that I was annoyed. I have a busy weekend and don't really want the "bleh" feeling I get when I see W interrupting that. However, I also don't want to procrastinate on this. If she's set on getting a D we can proceed.
So I gave her a single time I'm available, and I'll see if that works for her. I still don't want this, but I also don't want to keep having her interrupt this life I'm trying to build. I have no choice on my M, but I AM choosing to build an active and exciting life for myself here. If nothing happened and we were just separated for long term that would be fine with me. But the popping-up sporadically of "Oh I'm going to get things from the house" or "Oh here's what we need to do to get D" is getting old. Every step is closer to D. So might as well continue to proceed with it until it's complete.
I have this in my life until October when the house will be (likely) sold and I move out. It sounds like I'll be D by then too. So yeah, I have to hold on and recognize this will continue to happen for a while. After that I can choose to ignore or accept any communication from her. But right now these are not logistics I can hide from. Huh. Turns out that's a 180 for me. I always hid from unpleasant tasks.
It was interesting that my first emotion was "annoyed" and not "wildly hurt". I'm in transition with this situation for sure.
So in my personal life I'm still crushing on someone from afar. I will say that this has turned out to be an EXCELLENT distraction. I'm not pursuing (I don't think she's interested) but I do love the fact that I have someone to daydream about. On tough days especially it really helps get me through. I weirdly feel less lonely because I see that there is hope of love and lust in my future. I like the hope I feel when I think about her.
I stopped by her office just to chat and had a great 20 minute conversation. She's someone who I honestly would love to have as a friend - she seems really cool. Fun, social, and seems authentic. But in my head I am wildly distracted with complete lust. I don't know what it is about her that has me so infatuated but there's just some vibe I can't get enough of. Plus these hips that have me unable to stop biting my lip. If the opportunity presented itself I don't think I'd say no to her. And I don't think I'd regret that either.
She's actually a good match for me personality wise. That's also tricky, because I'm in no place for an actual R, so I really need to keep this a mental-only distraction. But UGH am I just trying to keep myself calm and collected in her presence.
So that's where I'm at today. There is pain, but there is also growth and distractions and trying to figure out what it is that I actually want in my future. I can see several paths forward. Some involve W, and some do not.
So much reflection these days.
I'm just about 1 year from BD. I didn't know that's what it was at the time, and the memory of that night are still hazy and I don't care to relive it. But last Memorial Day was one of the most fun and loving times. W and I and our families got together for a fun evening of cards and hanging out. It was the first time since our wedding our families had truly melded into one happy group and we had a small party at our house. Only a week or so later it all came crashing down. I was flying high that weekend and I remember being so grateful and knowing I had exactly what I wanted in terms of family.
Now I'm in a different place. I'm actively seeking joy in every small thing I do. I sat on my porch to enjoy a beer after mowing the lawn, and realized I could smell the lilacs. So I jumped up, cut a few, and put them in a vase on my porch table. I never got to do that before because W happened to dislike the smell of lilacs.
I had to work today, but had an awesome day with my student workers. I have another incredible team, and they busted their butts with me today for some manual labor that just had to get done. So I bought us all pizza and pints of ice cream and we ate it in the sunshine after our work was done. They were grateful, and so was I.
I am doing more physical things than I ever have before and it feels GOOD. I'm covering some work for a retired teammate, which involves me sweating a lot a work (my job is supposed to be a desk-based job). I come home and now I'm responsible for all the lawn care and I found I really like it. W always did this stuff and complained I never did. But I do things in my own time, when I'm ready. And I've found times in my week when I enjoy being in the dirt and pulling weeds and planting plants getting generally disgusting because we've had so much rain lately. The mosquitoes are insane and my ankles are huge with bites. I don't mind.
I've kept off the 15-20 pounds I've lost since BD. I look amazing. I'm hoping to tone up which is something I've never done. It really is fascinating how connected our exterior and interior can be. I am presenting myself as more confident, more of a bad-@$$ woman who will handle any situation, and I feel it in my core too. I'm learning that my strength is a quiet one. Not "in-your-face" aggression, more of a stable assertiveness. The world around me is responding well to this.
I am trying to be social and build friendships and strong working relationships. I am succeeding, but have a ways to go in making new friends that I feel I can hang-out with. At my core I'm still a shy person, unsure how to navigate friendships. When it was just me & W we were a very insular couple. We rarely hung out with other people because we just so genuinely enjoyed each others company that we became homebodies. I see now that while I do require a lot of time at home by myself to feel strong and confident, I also do genuinely like people. I have found myself to be more trusting, more open, and more authentic in my daily relationships.
I leave for Italy in a couple of days. I'm not packed (I'm looking at what I need to bring and afraid it won't fit in the tiny bag I've committed to). I also am getting nervous because I have not heard from the farmer I've been communicating with. I had hoped for one more confirmation that he is expecting me to show up on his farm. I hope to hear soon, otherwise I may find myself creating a "Plan B" on the fly. This will certainly be an adventure of a lifetime either way. I just hope that the farm clothes I bring will be used in my manual labor, and not something I find myself wearing while looking at museums!
I met with W this weekend, we went over the paperwork that needs to be filled out. We will connect again in July. This is proceeding steadily but not too slow and not to raced. I feel she is confident in her decision. She was quietly normal in our meeting, considering we were at a coffee shop discussing D.
Sometimes this hurts. But sometimes I'm okay with it. This still is not what I wanted. But now that I'm here, it is something that I think needs to proceed. I've been reflecting a lot on the hurt that W caused, and I'm not in a place to forgive fully right now. I'm reliving some of the specifics now that I'm 7+ months out from her moving out I'm in disbelief to some of the things she did. And I'm letting go some of the guilt and feelings that this was somehow my fault. It wasn't. I have responsibility in our relationship not being what it should have been, but this D is not about me.
Honestly, I know that right now I'm not in a place where I could work on a R with her. If by some twist of fate she dropped the D and said she wanted to come home I don't think I'd say yes. It would kill me to say so, and it would rip my heart out knowing that for so long that is all I wanted. It would rip my heart out because I know we have potential, and to walk away from that would be worse than the last year. But right now and the space I'm in I don't think I could climb that mountain of reconciliation. I just don't think I could make it.
I kind of feel like I could in the future though. I just don't think I'm far enough in my own grief process to fully forgive W, so therefore I can't be thinking about being with her even in the hypothetical. Now that I'm in this new freedom stage I need to fully experience it so I know what it means for me.
You got this Yail!! I understand that sadness that you have and also your change on feeling of forgiveness. I am in the same spot. My D is final. All that is left of my MR and family is destruction and separation.
I move out on Saturday. I doubt I will have anything to do with my EXWW. She still treats me like this is my fault. She has not changed one bit for the better. I am ok with that. However, I am still very sad about this whole thing.
Fortunately, the sadness seems to be more circled around my kids and just the uncertainty of my future, living on my own for the first time in my life. Doing things that keep me busy when I am alone without the kids. This is all uncharted territory. However, I have matured quite a bit. I know I will be fine. I love myself. I trust myself. That is what matters.
My EXWW still can't look at me at all. Her shame is there. I know its there. I know she feels disgusting about her choice but she is way to proud and too much of a narcissist to admit that she did something wrong and that she is a selfish person. She had written me an email when she signed the D paperwork before we filed, in it she wrote "It saddens me, even though I want this.. blah blah blah... I recognized my failures in our marriage.. blah blah"
I stopped reading right there. Because words mean jack sh*t!!! Actions speak much much louder than words.
They are all the same. They are all in on this selfishness. But its ok, life goes on. There are better people out there. Yes it [censored] that we put so much effort, life and energy into these R's, just for them to literally go nowhere, but we learned from these relationships.
We grew. We found our true selves. We found our true strength and true confidence and we will use that strength and confidence to pick ourselves up out of the dirt, dust ourselves off and push on, because we are the ones that know that ACTION is what it takes, and that is exactly what we are doing now!!
Keep your head up. We were given this path for a reason. Lets make sure we make the best of it.
SoTorn, I'm so sorry for the struggle you have right now. You have a lot of changes in front of you with living alone and learning your new normal. My sitch has had me living alone for quite a while and for me that has helped with my processing of this whole thing. Trusting yourself in this is a gift - I'm glad to hear you feel trust in yourself. I feel the same.
I hope you are able to find the fun and joy within your new normal. I'd be interested to hear that process.
I also agree that we were given this path for a reason, and for that reason I do not resent it. I do not resent W for her choices. I'm sad, and occasionally a little angry or frustrated, but not resentful. Since I find this is the path I have now, I DO intend to make the best of it! My life is too valuable to waste a second.
FS, you out there? You good? Your last thread locked and haven't seen you post in a while, so calling out to you here on my own in case you're lurking.
Hope you're doing well my dear.
Yail... I was wondering about FS too as haven’t seen a new thread from her. Hope all is okay.
So how are you?!? Are you still in Italy? Inquiring minds want to know. Just read through the last few posts on your thread. Don’t know how I missed them. Sounds like move-out day was tough...for both of you. Like FS said...don’t be fooled by her presentation. She couldn’t look at your for a reason.
Also...glad to hear you have a crush to distract you. Distractions for difficult feelings isn’t a bad thing. Time heals. Distractions buy us some time at the very least.
When you can...give us an update. Would love to hear about your time in Italy. My BIL just got back from a month in Croatia. Sounds amazing. I’m hoping to go there next September with them and another couple I know. Hoping I won’t be a fifth wheel and will have a sixth person to make the trip with me but I know I will be okay even if I am.
(((HUGS)))
Italy was beyond amazing. I worked on a farm with this fantastic family. I LOVED it. I went with the intent of trying to figure out if I would be happy with animals and a small farm. Short answer is YES. I love the work involved. I love the routine that is required when you work with animals - because they rely on you.
I'm figuring out what a 2 or 3 year plan might be for me to have a few small animals on my own little property. Not a farm per se, but I'd like a few goats (dairy/meat) and sheep (fiber) and some chickens and ducks (eggs/meat). Something manageable for one person. I still have a lot to learn, but I know there are resources I can dig into to keep learning.
I came home smelling like a farm and I had never been so content. I see my future a lot clearer now. Even if I don't exactly end up with animals, I see the type of life I want. I want a life where I'm putting in the hard work to create something over time. Every year it's a little bit bigger, a little bit stronger, and I rely on my own learning and commitment to create that life. It's like a picture coming into focus. THAT is keeping me going.
******
I'm in the middle of a little emotional cycle regarding W. We still don't talk. She is coming to the house for a significant amount of time this weekend to get it ready to put on the market. I don't know what projects she thinks need to be done. There hasn't been clear communication on that, and it's something we need to talk about.
I look around the house and there is so much stuff still. She asked that I identify exactly what I want to take so she knows what needs to be disposed of. I'm feeling overwhelmed, but I need to just take a deep breath and tackle one room at a time. When this whole thing started I wanted to keep everything. Now I just want a few pieces of furniture here and there. It will be expensive, but I feel the need to pick out my own new items once I settle into a new place.
I still don't know where I'll be living and it's getting to be crunch time for an October move. I have a meeting with a potential roommate this week. I'm weighing my options between a roommate and living on my own in an apartment for about a year or less. Save money vs comfort.
I desperately am ready to buy a house in MY name. But I need to wait for all legal stuff to go through before I know what kind of down payment I might have, and to be qualified as a first-time home buyer. If you remember, my name is not on this house's deed at all. So to get these benefits, I must be divorced.
But I still don't want the divorce. I don't think I do. Mostly I'm unsure how I feel. So I don't tell W these details because I don't want her to think she's proceeding with a D to benefit me. I don't want her to justify it. It will happen in its own time.
Her bday was last week so I sent her a simple text wishing her a happy birthday. That was it. No response. I think that's what sent me into an emotional cycle. I know I shouldn't have had expectations, but I guess I kind of did deep down. I assumed she'd just write back "thank you". That's it. But nothing.
Something about the lack of response made me feel like she's struggling. I know I'm mind-reading. But just as I'm starting to let go of her I'm back into thinking about her. I had been doing really well NOT thinking about her for a while now.
It's very difficult to not know how she is. I hope she is healing in whatever way she needs, and growing in other ways. But something in my gut says something is still very wrong, and I can't do anything about it.
********
I can distract myself easily most days. I still have a crush on someone, and spend way too much time thinking about how attracted to her I am. But even this ebbs and flows. I would like this woman as a friend, and I would like her as a more-than-friend, but I don't want a R with her. It's interesting, I've never been attracted to someone but so very clearly didn't want to date them. I don't want to date anyone, and that feels good.
******
Today I will go dig in the gardens. This brings me a lot of joy lately and is a new hobby for me. It fits in so wonderfully with this life I'm trying to build for myself. This new life that I want that is slowly coming into focus. I do so many of these things already, but to really focus on them makes my smile bigger and calms my soul.
*flower gardens with roses and poppies. Pollinator gardens too.
*veggie gardens, herb gardens
*canning and preserving the veggies from garden
*weekly homemade bread
*practice making cheeses (for future goats!)
*continued knitting projects - I've done so many lately!
*more manual labor, less toxic quick-fixes (weeding, scrubbing can all be done by hand)
*less stuff, more quality items
*more community learning. Jewelry making, yarn spinning, animal husbandry...
*drink less, be present more (a work in progress...)
*more friends at my home, less going "out"
*more friends! (also working on this)
*more consistent light cleaning for a home that is in order, but not pristine.
*practice fixing mechanical items (lawnmower is currently in the shop....)
****
So all in all - yes, I'm still cycling in grief 9 months after W left. But it's more like little waves, not overwhelming. And I have to remember that this is how grief is supposed to work, and I'm doing well. And to focus on my values and future life is really the most helpful piece. I can focus on growing and creating my life and I'll push out all those annoying little weeds that try to sneak in.
Hi Yail
just checking in to say I am so glad you had a good time, and that you've come back with a clearer dream for how your future will be. It sounds amazing. And perhaps in time there will be someone to share it all with - a lucky woman - but if that doesn't happen for a while, it sounds like something real and substantial and meaningful you can build and enjoy on your own.
I'm not at the stage of trying to imagine a future yet. I am still living day by day, licking my wounds and making sure I am meeting my emotional needs as best as I can, and setting good clear boundaries to protect me from going backwards. But I think that will come.
Well done!
Alison, I think the day-by-day living is a critical and necessary step in the grief. It wholly (*#$%s. I did it for a long time. Looooottttsss of Netflix. I needed to escape and just make my brain stop, so I watched a lot of tv.
And then occasionally you look around and realize time has passed and you're doing pretty well. You start to slowly peek your head out further and further and start making new decisions, or taking little risks. For me when I was trying new things I started to turn a corner. Little by little I realized that every decision I made was for me and for me alone, and I could either proceed or dismiss it.
You're right that it will come to you, and it will likely come slowly but surely.
(((Yail)))... what a beautiful experience you had in Italy!!! I am so happy for you. It is the silver lining in the LBS cloud that hangs over so many of our heads. Glad to hear your cycle of grief is lessening and you can feel yourself healing. You have such amazing insights and words of wisdom for others on the board, it does not surprise me. I agree with you... the non-response to your Happy Birthday tells me all is not well in you W’s world. But...you cannot spend your time wondering about it...she needs to figure things out for herself. Love your ToDo List!!! Super inspiring...just like you. (((HUGS)))
Yail your story is inspiring. Thank you for sharing. I have a garden and a goat (a pet) couple of horses and lots of cows. The more time I spend with the cows, the less I'm inclined to want to hang out with people, so beware! lol
I wish I liked gardening more, I just hate to be hot! So I'm going to buckle down and learn to like weeding. There is something very satisfying about pulling them out by hand. Almost like in our lives where we need to overhaul our emotions, except with weeds we can see it and appreciate the pile of weeds that were choking off the good stuff.
Hey Yail - its late here and havent really had a chance to read your post properly. I just wanted to day im here and safe and generally in a good place. Not much has changed but everything has changed. Cryptic i know, but i dont have the words to explain it right now. Just know i am happy.
i caught the key words from my quick scan - amazing Italian holiday and even crushing on some lucky lady. All i can say is "look at you enjoying life"
.
Ill catch up properly tomorrow.
xx
OH FS, I'm so glad you're well. I was genuinely worried just because...well... I don't know but I just felt like you stopping your updates was not normal for you, so I was concerned. If you choose to post I look forward to reading.
97Hope - you're a fellow goat lover? I'm so glad to hear this! I truly loved every second I was with the goats. The cattle too. I loved the cows (and a couple of sweet bulls). I don't want to care for them myself, but I do adore them. There was this one bull I just called "big boy" because he as as sweet as pie. I never did learn their names in Italian. I always called the animals by their tag numbers. Except one calve was named "Fragola" ("strawberry") which was adorable due to his coloring.
You've got me reminiscing now about that sweet smell of hay (fieno) and straw (paglia) and manure (concime). Honestly, those were the most important words I learned!
Well boo. 97 I wrote a response to you about animals and I guess it didn't post. bummer!
All I was going to write is my appreciation that you love animals as much as i do, and the hard work they require. I worked with some cattle in Italy and did love it - I just don't want them for myself! Too much work, I'm looking for something smaller than you have. But boy, there really are some wonderfully sweet. There was even a bull I worked with I called "Big Boy" just because he was so sweet and gentle. I never did learn their names - I just called them all by their tag numbers. But "Big Boy" was something special. One day I turned my back to him without thinking and he gave one of those really big scratchy licks up the back of my arm. I jumped 3 feet (it hurt!) and giggled hysterically. Sometimes animals just surprise you in the funniest ways!
I know you have a bunch of change in your life happening now as well. A change of heart, perhaps. I'll check in on you again soon. I hope you're well. Send my love to your goat
97, I wrote TWO responses to you last night, and I can't tell you why but neither of them posted! How annoying. Must be human error or gremlins. Not sure which.
I used to hate gardening because you sweat so much. Now I look at it like, "ohhh I get to go out and SWEAT". I just dress appropriately and expect it, and for some reason it stopped bothering me when I anticipate it. Also I'm getting really tan this summer from just a bit of outdoor time and I look great. W used to say, "You're all golden and delicious!". I still laugh at that phrase.
Oh, I get it about you and your cattle. I loved working with the cows when in Italy. I just don't want them myself right now - a lot of work, a lot of land, a lot of cost - but they are such sweet creatures. Even the bulls I worked with were gentle souls. One I just called "Big Boy", and he was especially comical. I turned my back to him one day (pretty sure I was yelling at the damn chickens) and he just did one giant liiiiiicccckkkk up the back of my arm. I jumped three feet in the air! I think he was secretly laughing. Silly humans.
OMG NOW I can see the two prior posts to you? What is happening!?! I promise they weren't there for me to see before.
I swear I'm not crazy. I just apparently REALLY want to write to 97. Sorry!
Hey I love the attention!! lol
I don't know if we can be friends if you aren't a 'little' crazy.
Your trip to Italy sounds fabulous!!! Do you have people there or do a booked trip? My dad is from Italy and I would love to go back. I've only been to Venice.
I had the same experience with the sweating. I could not stand it. I live in a VERY hot climate in the summers and I had to bite the bullet like you, dress for the occasion and deal with it. Since I'm here alone, I mowed in my bikini yesterday - H showed up and his face fell off. I didn't know he was coming, I was just trying to even out my farmer's tan. It was quite humorous for me, and I'm liking that he still digs my chili.
I like your W's line "golden and delicious" haha.
I love the smell of manure. I was raised in upstate NY so the smell of it reminds me of home. Having these babies here just does my soul good.
I sent your love to my goat. She is precious and loves to hop on my back when I'm bent over working. We were doing goat yoga before it was cool.
Goat ladies are always a little crazy, and I hope to one day be a goat woman. Can't be helped. So yes, I'll gladly jump on the "little crazy" bandwagon.
I didn't know anyone - I was participating as a WWOOFer. I needed to get away from this whole Divorce thing and I thought running away to Italy was a good idea (IT WAS). And I'm always trying to improve my Italian, so I wanted to immerse myself and not just tour museums and stay in hostels. Also, as a newly single woman I wanted to be conservative with my spending, since my future is a little unknown. What an AWESOME experience it was. i could imagine that the experiences with WWOOF vary widely, but I was very selective about farms I applied to (no single male farmers - I just would not feel comfortable in a strange country working with a gentleman I didn't know. I only applied to places with families/children).
The idea of goat yoga makes me laugh. In some ways it's super fun to have baby goats (capretti) climb on you. On the other hand...sooooooo hipster.
W is coming this weekend and we will be reviewing asset paperwork and she'll be working on staging the house.
I don't know how I feel about her these days
I'm oscillating between ANGRY and HURT with a touch of moving on, and not feeling too worked up about it. Sometimes I just feel like, "Oh, yes. We're getting divorced and selling the house". And sometimes I think she will definitely regret this in a year or so. I don't know why I think a year - I just do. Sometimes I think maybe this was always going to happen. Sometimes I think there is something I could do, sometimes I think there is nothing I could do. Sometimes I think I'd rather just ignore her and be a bit short - but other times I think some "normalcy" in our conversations will be best for the long-run.
I have a choice. We don't need to speak ever again if that was my choice. We don't have kids, so we don't have a need to stay in touch. I don't know what to do with this choice.
I'm trying to remind myself that the best thing I can do is keep it simple. Not initiate conversations, but answer kindly and normally. The lovingly detach thing. That if there is a chance in the future for us to reconnect this leaves the door open. I don't have to decide anything now - I just have to not slam the door.
sometimes I want to slam the damn door. I never did get to yell back at her when she delivered so much hurt and told me all the ways I was wrong in our R. I never did scream at her for having an A. These behaviors that were just so NOT the W I knew - I was a deer in the headlights and I froze. She never saw me respond with much emotion at all - and from some of our last conversations before the break she takes this as proof that I didn't care "enough". Using it to justify herself. See? We were not meant to be. Yail didn't care enough to fight for the R.
You can't fight for something that already left. And by that time, she had already left.
I see how we were so clearly, and I see our problems so clearly. Both of us held back - A LOT. We weren't honest with each other, and I think we both feared judgement from the other. But that honesty would have made us do the work needed and would have likely brought us closer together.
I am growing in so many ways, and I'm genuinely proud of that. I am grateful I won't remain stuck as the person that I was during our R. But I want to try this again. But I also don't. I'm sick at the idea of being with W, because there is so much pain there I feel nauseous. So I bury it a bit, and it's slowly bubbling to the surface.
R is not on the table. But I also in this moment KNOW that a new R with a new person would be 1000x easier than trying again with W.
I just wonder how we would be if she met me now and saw me as this new person. I take up space. I'm unapologetic for taking up space. I know what I want and I make decisions. These are all the things she wanted from me - BEGGED me to be. But in order for me to do so I needed to lose my fear that I'd make the wrong choice. When you lose what is most precious you lose your fear. Now I don't have the fear that W won't like what I do, so I can apologetically be Yail. And that is always what she wanted for me.
This up and down has really got to stop.
I had forgotten that the occasional cry really helps release those emotions and puts me on an even keel. It has been a long time since I've cried.
Tonight I was cleaning the house preparing for W to come tomorrow. Stuffed some stuff in closets. Decided I really dislike the art work she hung in the house, took more of it down. Made a mistake and peeked at my wedding dress, which was worn only 1.5 years ago. Well that started the tears.
But I kept cleaning while crying. And then sat down to fill out the Divorce asset paperwork which is step #1. I've been trying to get to this for a few days, but each time I get worked up. Today it seemed easier. Cold, hard facts. Here's what's in my IRA. Here's my bank account. Here are my expenses.
W makes so much more than I do, but I have always been able to budget and stay within my means. It isn't any different now. I keep elaborate budget spreadsheets so filling out the paperwork was a breeze. How much in groceries a month? I already have that down to the penny. Taking a 6 month average is a piece of cake.
Stick to the facts, Yail. W is gone, and W has been gone. W has every right to live her life, and you have been living yours. I have been spending most all of my free time daydreaming about another woman. Do I really think I'm in any way acting better than W?
Sure, I'm doing this as emotional protection. It's a defense, and it's a distraction. I'm fully aware of this. I don't actually want this other woman. But this other woman I'm coveting is not my W. And right now, that's okay. But I can't blame W for wanting something different when here I am doing the same.
Maybe it's not exactly the same. But I'm trying so hard to release her. It has been 9 months since she asked for the D and some days I'm just as broken as that first day.
I told a coworker about my crush. I needed to. I needed to ramp up the "feelings" I have for the crush, and nothing makes you more excited than when you share a secret with someone. The feelings were waning because she's not my W, and she's not someone I'm actually wanting a R or anything with. But pretending I do - staying in a fantasy land where I crush on her - it helps. So I told my coworker which brought me back to feeling all giddy as only a crush does.
W & I had a couple emails back and forth about logistics. I kept mine more conversational than I had been recently. I'm trying to not be as short and snippy as I'm feeling. Asked some logistical questions. She responded in a similar tone - less brief than before, more conversational. I hated it. I don't know why. It just seemed too much like she is okay with moving forward.
I don't want her in the house tomorrow. I don't want her in my space. But it's her house, and she is doing all of the work for this house to be sold, which is necessary. So I have no right to ask her not to be here when she is calmly and clearly taking steps forward in a respectful manner.
Grief is no joke. How can I be mourning something I don't even want anymore?
(((Yail))). You have such wonderful insights and amazing advice for others on here. Like you well know...this is a process with lots of forward and backward steps. You are still miles ahead of where you were when all this began. Sending you lots of healing energy and (((HUGS))).
I've been thinking a lot about that last sentence I wrote. How can I be mourning something I don't even want any more?
I've been sad and mourning about a future I thought I had. Things that haven't been real for a bit. But I don't actually want her now that I'm envisioning a different future. I'm in transition with this feeling, so I still waiver back and forth. She will always be my W, but I really cannot live with her in my life now.
W is here arranging the house for staging/sale. Her friend is with her helping. I'm just so annoyed. So typical W. We disagree on how things should go, and she's pulling out plants and weeding things that I wanted to stay. I'm ignoring it, because this really won't be my house for long and it's ultimately her sale. If she thinks some sterile house with no life in it will attract buyers she can go ahead with that. But folks here want gardens - not lawn.
She took the grill which REALLY bugged me, because I had planned to use it for parties. Deep breath. It doesn't matter, it's just a "thing". Just got to get through this. She did apologize for taking it without asking. It wasn't intentional.
I've been thinking about the cutie I have a crush on. And while long term she is not someone viable for me, just seeing a different personality type is really eye opening. How I might interact differently with someone who respects my autonomy. Who has their own.
W is making assumptions about who I am as she always has. "Yail, if I put in some flowers in this planter will you water them and be able to keep them alive?" REALLY wanted to say "F- you". I've been gardening all summer and the house looks [censored] great. But just neutrally said, "sure thing". She still thinks I'm this helpless princess who can't do anything for herself and I'm seeing today just SO clearly that she has felt that way for a long time.
We are okay with each other communication wise. She's being mildly/politely conversational. She is okay. No hurt, just wants to get her life going in new place and to stop coming back here. I am being the same. I just want her out of my space.
My transition living situation will likely be yucky, and I'll just have to power through that and keep my future farmhouse in my minds eye. Keep working hard. Maybe get a second job, and build my life and my physical space into something I want for myself.
For a while I wanted to keep this house so I could have people over and parties. Now I don't - I want to wait until I have MY space for people to come over. Drinks late into the night, card games, fires in the back and lots of laughter. I'm going to be building my tribe of people that I never had and I'm so excited.
I'm going to a music festival this afternoon. I'm desperately hoping that the cutie I know is there. Soooo want to see her in a social situation. She's more flirty with a beer in hand. While it is logically "not a good idea" for me to pursue this, my good friend made a comment to me a few weeks ago. "Yail - you need to stop being pursued. You need to be the pursuer". It's amazing how this applies to both romance and my every day life.
So now I'm pursuing my life. My loves. My passions. I have a little smirk in my mind's-eye. Life is full of adventure and I'm wanting to pounce on it. And the next time I have a crush on someone and I get an "okay" signal, maybe I'll be the one to make the first move. How thrilling!
Yail... what you wrote about mourning something you don’t’ even want... I know EXACTLY what you mean by that. That’s what I was doing too. I have been thinking a lot more about my STBXH lately...before I wasn’t thinking about him at all but now I am having fleeting thoughts. They don’t affect me emotionally though...they are just thoughts. The last steps of completely letting go, I think. I, too, am starting to envision a different future and it’s a great one. You are going to have a great one too. (((HUGS)))
DV: I see that you left a message, but it's not showing up for me. This is what happened when I was trying to post to 97. Is the forum buggy for anyone else?
I don't know if this will post, as the forum has been wonky for me lately. (Hey moderators - am I on some kind of probation?)
Anyway, this weekend that I've been so dreading is wrapping up. And do you know what? I felt JOY during it. Not all the time, but some of it. Pockets of it.
I saw some old photos of when W and I were so happy. A bit painful still, but they were accurate and true. I want to respect that happy time we had. And then some photos of when I know now neither of us were living our full potential. That's hard to swallow - but also was true.
Things are moving quickly now with the D and the house selling and me moving. It has been about 9 months since W asked for the D, and about 13-14 months since BD. So in some ways this is not "fast" at all. Maybe it's just all wrapping up in a few ways?
But when I see my future I see happiness. I really do. I see so much personal growth and authenticity in who I am becoming. I'm still mourning W and what we had, absolutely. But this hopeful feeling I didn't expect to shine through right now while going through a lot of painful stuff. I didn't know I could feel pain and joy at the same time over the same thing.
I'm losing some things. But what am I gaining? Honestly, I don't know but I know that I am gaining something. And because I don't know what it is, I feel hope. I am hopeful for my future which is unknown. What an amazing feeling.
I feel stronger (emotionally) than I ever have. I have more purpose and direction than I ever have. I made some decisions about pursuing my Masters degree, and what kind of life I want to live. I am trying SO hard to be social and make friends. I am embracing the sun and the breeze and my shoulders are golden with my gardening.
I guess the reason I'm writing this is for others who are still so "in it" and can't escape mentally the pain. I understand. I 100% understand. I just want to wish you a few pockets of light even during your toughest hours. Give you PERMISSION to laugh and feel hope, or relief, or joy when you know you're supposed to be sad. It's okay to feel two things at once. It doesn't mean you don't love or care, and it doesn't mean you're giving up. It just means you value your life, and you won't let anyone take that from you. You are living something that is honest and authentic. And that means it's messy.
UGH *eyeroll*
I'm trying to determine if I'm being pushed around or overly sensitive.
The house is officially on the market. I believe it to be WAY over priced (like...$40K over priced) and my first instinct is that W and her realtor are insane for the asking price. However, I won't be upset if it really does fetch that amount of money as we are splitting the equity. A high sale would be good for me. But I think they're bonkers for the price. I don't know if I want to be right or wrong!
The realtor is a former mutual friend. I don't like feeling rude or ungenerous, but I'm finding him to be a bit of a joke in all this. Not an unkind man, but not who I would work with to sell the house. W told me he would come by to pick up a large pile of trimmed brush that is in the front of the house by the curb. Left me a note that the realtor/friend would be by Monday to dispose of it. I don't know if the friend has flaked out or if W never had clear communication - but it's still sitting there and is unsightly and an embarrassment. I could have taken it to the compost center had I known he wasn't going to do it. Not my job, but I also don't like the fact that the neighbors have had to look at it since Saturday.
Realtor just wrote to me asking for a key to the house so a lock box could be put on for showings. UMMMM hey W, maybe you should have taken care of that and given your key? He asked that I leave it for tomorrow morning, and I only have my own key. I can certainly get him another key - my family has spare - but it won't be until tomorrow evening.
I just don't like that their poor planning makes me need to rush around and potentially give my own key to the house. Sure, I need to collect the keys from family anyway - but perhaps more than 24 hours notice would have been helpful.
When realtor came to take photos of the house he was over an hour late, so it dug into my day.
So these little things just are a nuisance and if I was the person who hired him I'd speak up and say so. But I'm not. BUT I live here, and have a right to some proper notice on things.
At the same time, I'm very aware of the fact that W and I still do not have any legal document outlining that I will get half the equity in the house. So I feel I must play nice. I really don't think she'd back out or try to play "hard ball". I really don't think so. But I also really don't know, and it sounds so crude but I want that money. If she is going to leave me I need it to set up my life because much of our financial planning was done together over the past 10 years. I significantly contributed to our lifestyle, and the fact that my savings is minimal is based on financial decisions we made as a couple. So yeah - despite not "legally" being entitled to it I want that equity.
I also don't have my apartment lined up for September or October and I'm starting to stress. But it only takes 1 successful viewing to snag a good place, so I need to keep at it.
I just need to push through. Get to my next step, which is my own apartment, and get moved in. Once that happens I can breath easy knowing my space is my own once more.
House sale is moving much faster than anticipated, with 8 solid offers in 1 weekend of showing. I wasn't expecting this.
For me it means I may be forced to move out sooner than I had hoped and asked for. This has my anxiety level up. I'm trying to remain level headed, but I struggle with change.
I have my apartment secured for October 3rd so that's a big relief and I feel pretty decent about that. I sign the lease tomorrow. I fully intend on breaking the lease in spring assuming I find my own house to purchase at that time. I just figured I should get through the fall/winter to really be sure of what I want in a house. I'm back and forth between wanting a small home in this city that I live in currently (and love) or a home a bit out in the country that I could get goats for. I'm very interested in both options, and think a bit more time wouldn't hurt me.
I may need to identify temporary housing for September which has me very disappointed. I understand, but I'm disappointed. But, time will tell. I don't know the details yet.
W has been communicative throughout this process. I appreciate that.
1 year ago we were a couple and about to go on our yearly summer vacation. It was the last time we were intimate. 1 year ago things were wrong between us, but not quite fully broken in two. At least not outwardly. 1 year ago is when W started to share just how wrong things were for her and just how unhappy she was. First acknowledgement of it since BD. But still it was just tiny glimpses. We both knew it was there, but she only just started to verbalize it.
I think I need to move forward with my tattoo. I think now is the time for me. Bring some beauty into my life at a time when I know it is all around me, and I see it, but I also experience a lot of pain alongside the beauty. I'm going to get a 4''x6'' upper thigh tattoo of mixed flowers. All my favorites that bring me joy: poppies, roses, hydrangeas, clover, lavender.
(((Yail))) Not much to offer in the way of advice. You are doing so well. Leaving your home is, I'm sure, pretty devastating but when you do decide on a new one and start to make it your own, I predict you will be very happy with it and looking forward to a positive future. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep posting. I very much appreciate all of your words of wisdom and support. (((HUGS)))
Hi DV *waves*
You and my coworker are telling me the same thing. I'm strong, and keep going. I'm trying!!
I know my future is bright. I know I have happiness in both the now and the future. I just really am not doing great with the stress of feeling powerless. I don't do well with that feeling - I've realized that's when I tend to spin out of control. Funny, that's the overwhelming feeling I had when W was actively leaving. Powerless. I just pieced that together in my mind.
So I'm feeling very emotional now just as I was feeling very emotional last fall.
I'm so high-anxiety over the house sale timing. I know W is working on it, I just worry she's not pushing *enough* for me. They are inquiring if we (I) can "rent back" the house from the sale/closing for an additional few weeks. This is what I want. I can be mostly moved out of the house - get storage, etc. But finding 1 month or 6 weeks of housing with a pet is TOUGH.
Plus, it's my brother's wedding at the end of September. I'm making their cake. I've done 2 trials already and plan a third this weekend. I need a trustworthy and tested oven for something important like this.
And I put my gardens in, and want to have the rewards.
You never know what the future brings. who knows - maybe after the inspection the buyer will find some tiny detail they hate and will back out and we'll have to start over. You just never know the future.
I'm trying really hard to bring back my emotional crush on the cutie at work. It has waned recently. It is such a great distraction, and brings me that silly giddy feeling that can take over the brain space being occupied by this other *bleep*. But the highly emotional state I'm in these days has brought back a lot of memories and feelings for W, and that's hard to feel. I thought I was "over" her. No. I'm just learning how to move on from her, so the cycles are still there. Don't want to be with her, but miss her.
I think it's time to bring back my "cook down the pantry" game. I don't want to move all this stuff, so might as well eat it all now and save on some groceries.
I've been really emotionally down this week, and just trying to push through. Lots of crying, which I haven't done regularly since winter.
The sale of the house has me and W communicating more than we have in the past 9 months via text. I stopped getting anxious when I see something from her, which I suppose is good. I know it's all logistics, and I don't panic wondering how to respond or over analyzing things. Just simple responses back and forth.
She has been communicative (much more so than the realtor who I'm still beyond frustrated with). I wonder if that is what has my dreams starting. I'm not one to remember their dreams, but I've had a few recently where W is in them and is either apologetic, or I feel my heart forgiving her, and opening up to the idea of Recon. WTF. That's not what is going on in real life. What is my subconscious trying to tell me?
So then I find my waking hours thinking about her, and everything just makes me cry. I realized today I couldn't remember the last time she was laughing really hard with me. How long had she been depressed and I didn't fully see it? I didn't acknowledge it? Was it years?
I sense that a lot of processing and grieving is happening below the surface right now with the house sale and pending D. It's all in the works to approaching those final steps though I think I have a few months to go still before it's truly final. And I'm no longer afraid of my future, which is unknown. That's exciting and great. But I do mourn the loss of my person. I'm missing her a lot these days.
I'm also realizing just how incredibly lonely I am. I feel like I don't have anyone to talk about these feelings with and some nights it's just too much. I spend 3 or 4 nights a week going to the lake and knitting which is really great. I'm out and can people watch, watch the sun set, and I love my knitting. Sometimes I have nice little conversations with strangers which boosts my mood. But I'm also drinking more than I should, and while it hasn't reached unhealthy or unsafe levels, it's definitely a crutch right now. Most nights I'm having a couple cocktails to just calm down and feel like I can breath.
I go back and forth between understanding why she had to go and being incredulous that she left.
Today I found out that the OW is working at the place W works at in the next state over. She must have moved so they could be together. They work in the same general field.
I was devastated. Losing W while trying to think "maybe this is what she needs - maybe she needs to grow without me" is hard enough. But throwing in the OW is a knife to the heart.
I know this isn't about me. But my god, it is tough to know this.
And then there's the maniacally hysterical laughing woman in my head who is screaming, "Really? REALLY??? Why are you upset Yail? You lost your W a long time ago when she decided it was the M making her unhappy. This is just a blip in the insanity that is running around W's head right now."
I'm oscillating between rage, hurt, and snippets of understanding. When I think back to some of the insane things W said during our demise, I know that she is not calm in herself. Maybe OW becomes a permanent R, maybe not. Maybe this is a "sign" of her depression, maybe it is legit. I don't know. But I can't stop and try to unearth motivations I will never know.
Forward. Just over two months and I will be in my apartment. Next January I'm wanting to start my Masters Degree. I have only good things in my future.
Next focus: Seriously how do adults make new friends?!? I'm still trying to build my tribe of good, fun loving, authentic people!
There's a lot of heavy stuff going on that has me raging and ready to just tear my heart out and throw it in the road. Drink myself into a stupor with extreme vexation. I won't. Instead, I'm not going to focus on that. I'm going to put it all on a shelf until I can properly and calmly take it out, examine it, process it, and put it to bed.
I'm going to focus on my successes and what is bringing me joy. Examine what is on my mind aside from the angering stuff. I just really need to write A LOT right now. It may be disjointed. It's better than taking a sledgehammer to the drywall. (Yep, Yail found her rage stage of grief. Let's hope it's a short one).
I had a great conversation with a coworker yesterday about our lives, how we connect with students, how we approach our work. She is also recently out of a long-term relationship and I think hurting, though she is more private than I am. And only after our fulfilling and wonderful conversation did I realize, "OH!! THIS is how adults make friends!". So I'm on my way to becoming friends with this wonderfully intelligent and insightful colleague. Yes. Score a point for me! It was happening so naturally I almost didn't notice it. I hope to continue to chat with her, and maybe we'll grab a tea sometime to solidify the "we're friends outside of work too" vibe. She's very social, so I'm sure I'd meet some really rad other people through her.
I posted one of those anonymous "I saw you around town" submissions to the local online newspaper. You know, the ones that are often near the dating section? So in it I very vaguely put out into the universe my secret crush on my (different) coworker. Just to get it off my chest. No one would know it was me, no one would know it is her. It's 100% deniable. But it felt like a wonderful secret to post the fact that I've been checking her out. She is my favorite distraction in all of this. I've been having a hard time concentrating due to my mind wandering to her.
I'm realizing that in some ways I don't have anyone I can go to. My parents and friends have all proved a tad unreliable - though in different ways. And you know what? That's okay. I'm learning that I can only rely on myself for 100% of my needs, and that maybe different friends and different relationships need to feed us in a variety of ways. No one person can be everything. I thought W was, and maybe that was wrong. This is an interesting process to go through, but I think ultimately it's healthy for me to examine this.
I'm really into examining my fashion and aesthetic lately. I'm embracing my queer femme side. Dressing mildly sexier and feeling good about it. There's a big Pride event in a couple months, and I am really hoping to fully participate and to dress the part. I've got it all planned out: A black tank top that I'm going to embroider with "Femme as F**k". Grey slashed/ripped jeans. Cute boots. My killer lipstick.
I am more confident than I have ever been. I used to be shy, also kind of awkward, especially around other gay folks or cute women. Nope, not anymore. I don't break eye contact. I feel I've become rather intense. But I just don't have fear anymore.
I've never really been prideful. I've just been ambivalent about being gay. But it's hitting me in a different way these days, and I feel a strong need to really examine myself and what my sexuality is telling me. I'm realizing I need to be with someone who is deep-down proud of being gay. She doesn't need to be covered in rainbows (actually....I'm very much hoping not. I'm a fan of something more subtle..) but she does need to have a general comfort with the fact that she likes women. I'm seeing just how much shame exists in our community, and in this moment I don't have the capacity to help someone else along in their journey. A friend, sure thing. But not a lover. Most of us have had a hard road. But someone who is sure of who she is and what she wants - that's what I'm looking for.
In the creative world I am knitting the most amazing sweater for winter. It has gorgeous cables that wrap around the body and the pattern is one of the most fun and interesting patterns I've ever worked with. "Swivel Pullover" from Interweave if you want a photo.
Lastly: I'm daydreaming about my future house/home. Whenever that is. I'm hoping next year, but I can honestly say I have no idea. But I want a bit of land. A fire pit so friends can gather around and drink a few too many beers and talk into the night. An extra bed for a friend who needs a little help. A minimalist but full pantry. New art on the walls that I either discover, make, or design. A place I can unapologetically hang up my lingerie because it will be MY house. Room in my home and heart for animals. Gardens for herbs, veggies, and flowers. Everything will have a purpose or it will not exist in my house. I don't want a disposable life. I want authenticity everywhere I look. And if another woman ever comes into sharing my life I hope she has the same values.
I've continued my thoughts at the link below. Not that I think anyone reads them
. I process best in writing/talking, so I write what comes to my head as a way to walk through it.
New thread
Oh Yail - I'm so sorry that you are going through this. Each change, from the small to the big, and this one is big, hits hard. They brings back memories and reopen closed wounds. You are a person who feels things deeply. This is both a blessing (because when we love, we love completely) and a curse (because when we love, we love completely).
If I did not know you I would say a house is just a house. But it is not. It was your home. Yours and hers. And then it was just yours. The place where you broke down. The place where you healed. And part of that healing process is making your home your sanctuary. The place where you started to feel safe again, where you shut off the world and turned inwards. You are, once again, being made to let go of something that has become a part of you.
There is also a perceived lack of control. Even if you wanted to sell the house (and a part of you does), it feels forced on you. That resentment your feeling towards the realtor, yes, he's a [censored] but its your anger at your W for putting you in a place where you feel you have no choice. The same lack of control you felt when she left.
You are doing the right things. Sucking it up. Trying to focus on the good. That home your dreaming off is possible. It will be one where there is no uncertainty (will she make me sell it, when will she make me sell it, [b] will [/b/] I have enough to get my own place). When she left you had to pick yourself up and rebuild (and you became a more fuller version of yourself). Now, when you move, you can turn your home into a physical manifestation of the person you are becoming.
Haha - I never imagined you were prideful. You are gay, and you don't feel the need to hide or apologies for that, but for me, it was never your defining characteristics. What comes through with you is your intelligence, your thoughtfulness and your kindness. I used to live with two gay men (they were not together) and they were all rainbows, politics and marches. I loved them, learnt a lot and I had a lot of fun. But it was exhausting. I lasted less than a year in that house. I can see why you'd want something quieter and more self assured.
And someday a wonderful woman, full of the same intelligence and kindness, will share that dream home with you. I know it in my bones.
I get why some people wave banners and stick logos on their heads (if for nothing else, to show young people just coming that they are not alone), but I hope someday they don't feel they have to.
I got a second piercing (on my ear) and am also thinking of getting another tattoo. I saw on a shirt with "we are the grand daughters of the witches you weren't able to burn" and I am thinking of getting that tattooed down my right side. My H would go ballistic but, f him.