Ok, so had the talk with W about her thoughts on Retrouvaille.... I listened and validated and it was a nice, calm conversation. Ended on good terms and everything.
She said she would be interested in attending but her mindset going into it would be to place more emphasis on learning to communicate better with me since we will be in each other’s lives forever no matter what . She then said it wouldn’t be with as much emphasis on going to R.
We didn’t really come to a conclusion and she said we should maybe pray on it tonight.
So now what do I do? Is it worth still going? I’ve heard of stories of people going with this exact intention and being able to R. There are examples of people going to learn to communicate better for after the D and end up R.
Is this one of those believe nothing what they say things? Like she’s telling me this in a guarded sense since she’s had walls built around her that reach the sky and is afraid to tear them down so she isn’t going to let me know she’s really going with some emphasis on R? Even if she’s 100% truthful and she is going for post D communication skills, do I still chance it with the hope something positive comes out of it and by positive I mean maybe coming back to the M eventually?
Ok, so had the talk with W about her thoughts on Retrouvaille.... I listened and validated and it was a nice, calm conversation. Ended on good terms and everything.
AWESOME! Whether you go or not that is a huge step in the right direction as far as how you are interacting with her, especially given what you had previously said you were going to say. Well done!
So now what do I do? Is it worth still going? I’ve heard of stories of people going with this exact intention and being able to R. There are examples of people going to learn to communicate better for after the D and end up R.
We're not supposed to share too much about what takes place in it, that's why if you try to research it you can't hardly find any info on it. They want you to be a "clean slate" going in. But in a nutshell, it's all about helping couples learn to communicate better. They give you certain tools for doing so. And you go through exercises while there to learn how to use those tools. Pretty much all the couples there are broken in some way. The ones that have the most success are the ones that still live together and where both parties are at least somewhat willing to work on things. The couples that have the lowest success rates are the ones where one is a WAS. The problem with WAS's is they are so far gone that they are unwilling to work on anything. They are done. They do stuff like Retrou just to go through the motions and say "well I tried but it's just not going to work out." They go into it with the conclusion already decided. Going within a year of BD is just too soon, the WAS hasn't yet come out of the fog.
To give you a specific example, one of the coach couples had a man that was going through MLC. Wow their story was something else. He was boozing it up, doing drugs and sleeping around all over town while she dutifully stayed home praying for him and waiting for him to "snap out of it". She begged him to go to Retrou and he did, and he did nothing but complain about how stupid it was and what a huge waste of his time it was the whole time he was there (he was the one telling this story by the way). As soon as they got home he went right back to his MLC behavior. Eventually he hit bottom (if I remember right I think he was driving drunk and got in a terrible accident and that was when he realized how far he had fallen) and started looking back, and saw that she was moving on. Then HE wanted to go to Retrou with her again. They went, and this time he fully embraced it and really tried. They reconciled shortly after and had been together ever since (I think it had been 10 years at that point). So the first time they went too soon after BD, but the second time it worked because HE had a change of heart.
So, going in with the right mindset makes all the difference. Your W and pretty much every other WAS our family here on these forums is dealing with is not in the right mindset. That said, as I said in your last thread I think if you get the chance then go, because the worst case scenario is you come out with a lot of great tools and knowledge you can use with your W in the future when she does soften her position, or use in a new relationship. Just don't go with any expectations that it'll turn her around because that's unlikely.
Hey W1, if you go it´s about managing expectations. AS wrote it clear above.
Ya, my expectations are it probably won't change her mind right now. I obviously hold out some hope that we can be one of the success stories that I've read about where the other S was pretty much going to work on communication for after the D and the weekend turned things around. But, I'm very mindful of the fact that there is probably a better chance that it does not.
I've always thought that our communication barriers have been the crux of pretty much all of our issues. Maybe learning the proper tools and skills to communicate better will have an effect on my W and get her to simply pause for a bit to rethink things.
I'm trying not to believe anything she says, so I have to wonder if her stating her mindset going in is just another guard she's putting up so I don't get any "closer" to her. After all, she still lives in the MH and has yet to file any D paperwork. But, I'm also curious why she is now considering going when before she wasn't? Is it because now she truly knows she is done and she's being completely honest that she just wants to be able to communicate better with me as co-parents? That could definitely be the case. She mentioned something about our communication being more "toxic" over the last couple weeks. I'm not sure if that is completely true but if that's her perception, so there isn't anything I can do about it other than to make sure I don't contribute anything to make things toxic moving forward. I need to stop trying to read her mind about it all and just be thankful that she's now considering it regardless of her intent in doing so.
Like you said AS, maybe I won't see any benefits from it with her right afterwards but it can't hurt to go. If it doesn't help us R, it will at least be a good tool for my own personal communication deficiencies and I'm all for personal growth.
My fear is that your hopes are too high W1. Retrouvaille is like any other marriage bootcamp type thing. The LBS goes in thinking "so you're saying there is a chance!". The WAS goes in thinking "cool, another checkbox we can check of the things we tried to saved things". So please make sure, if you guys end up going, to not attach too much hope to it. If Retrouvaille were the magic bullet for saving sitches we'd be suggesting to all newbies to get their WAS there at all costs!
It isn't. So we don't.
Are you guys going to lie on the questions asked before you can attend?
If your sitch goes like most sitches, you will either R....or you will be the one that ends up filing.
WASs are notoriously lazy at doing the actual work on the D.
Are you guys going to lie on the questions asked before you can attend?
So, when she brought that up to me last night, I validated what she said. Told her I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure if they will let us in. I think they call each of us beforehand and ask to make sure there is no OP involved and ask that we are both open to R. She was sort of caught off guard. Said she didn't know there was an "interview process." That's when she said we can sleep/pray on it and the conversation ended.
I did some more research afterwards and read many people's stories about how their S was going for basically the exact same reasons my W said she was going to emphasize while attending. Not sure if they still ask the question if we are both open to R or not. Maybe they have relaxed on that? I don't know. I guess if she gives me the go ahead (hopefully this morning), I'll register and then we will see what happens when get the calls.
She never really said outright that she was putting zero emphasis on R. She just said she was putting more emphasis on learning to communicate better since we will be in each other's lives forever and then said that she was going to be "less emphasis" on going to actually R. I'm paraphrasing a bit but that was the gist. So, I would think even if she said there is a 1% chance of R, there is still a "chance" and that should satisfy the requirement if she's asked.....I don't know. I guess I will wait and see!
I obviously hold out some hope that we can be one of the success stories that I've read about where the other S was pretty much going to work on communication for after the D and the weekend turned things around.
Maybe learning the proper tools and skills to communicate better will have an effect on my W and get her to simply pause for a bit to rethink things.
Those are expectations. And I get that, I mean we all want to hope there's an easy way to turn our sitches around. And it's good to have hope, but I think you're taking a short-term view when you should be taking a long-term view. There is no quick fix but you are laying the groundwork for possible recon down the road. Try not to set yourself up for disappointment!
After all, she still lives in the MH and has yet to file any D paperwork.
Remove all pressure and she may not feel the need to file. That happens a lot.
But, I'm also curious why she is now considering going when before she wasn't?
I think she is only considering it because you've brought it up multiple times, so if she goes she can say "there, see? I tried and it's still not going to work, I tried everything possible." In other words if she goes it becomes further justification to her for ending the M. That probably makes no sense to you, but that's because you don't understand how a WAS thinks. Not that anyone does, but they do follow certain patterns.
Like you said AS, maybe I won't see any benefits from it with her right afterwards but it can't hurt to go. If it doesn't help us R, it will at least be a good tool for my own personal communication deficiencies and I'm all for personal growth.
Good, that is the right attitude to have going in.
My fear is that your hopes are too high W1. Retrouvaille is like any other marriage bootcamp type thing. The LBS goes in thinking "so you're saying there is a chance!". The WAS goes in thinking "cool, another checkbox we can check of the things we tried to saved things". So please make sure, if you guys end up going, to not attach too much hope to it. If Retrouvaille were the magic bullet for saving sitches we'd be suggesting to all newbies to get their WAS there at all costs!
It isn't. So we don't.
Yes, I get that. My hopes really aren't that high. I would consider it a miracle if one weekend turned things around. From what I've read the 6 follow up sessions are just as important. I think if she is conscientious and deliberate in doing those with me, that bides us some time and space as well. We would have to do those online since we would be traveling 6 hours one way to go this weekend. Can't really afford to do that 6 more weekends and from what's researched, they offer those follow ups online now to do on your own.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm not hopeful that I'm going to see a turnaround on Sunday night after it concludes, but with the follow ups over the course of the next 6 weeks, and if I'm diligent in continue to detach in a loving way, maybe over time she will warm up to the idea of R.
I don't think my hopes are too high. I think I need to have a little bit of faith and try to trust the process, however. I've always figured that if this doesn't help matters than maybe 'the writing is on the wall.'
If your sitch goes like most sitches, you will either R....or you will be the one that ends up filing.
WASs are notoriously lazy at doing the actual work on the D.
Right now, I'm pretty confident I'm not going to file. However, I'll reserve the right to change my mind down the road. At this time, I'm pretty adamant about not doing so. I've told her that if this is what she wants, she is going to have to be the one to do it. I don't have a crystal ball so I can't say that something doesn't change my mind moving forward however.
Maybe it will boil down to how long I can continue doing what we are doing right now. She has it pretty good right now based on what she wants. Really no M responsibilities but all of the advantages of continuing to live in the MH with our kids and the ability to see them everyday. Pretty much cake eating. I've never been a real patient person as I'm sure you can gather from following my sitch! At some point I will get fed up with it and maybe the only way to move forward is me filing.....I know I'm not going to continue in this limbo pattern for an extended period of time.
She just text me now that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. She feels she knows where her heart is at. She said she would go to better our communication as parents.
She also informed me that her plan this weekend while I was gone was to start moving things to an apartment.
I'm at a loss of what I should do now. I don't really feel like going anymore.
Don’t go Wanted. Let her go and work on yourself. This is just another step she has to take. She is running from you because she knows you are still attached and that = pressure. Detach for you so that you will be okay even if she never comes back. It hurts and it’s not fair and all of those things... but you can only change you, not her. Stop trying. Let go of the rope so that you will be okay regardless of whether or not you D. (((HUGS)))
Read AnotherStander's timeline post in Ready2Change's quotes thread(s). You'll see what I mean.
She just text me now that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. She feels she knows where her heart is at. She said she would go to better our communication as parents.
Unfortunately very predictable.
She also informed me that her plan this weekend while I was gone was to start moving things to an apartment.
This IMO is good. Remember time and space are the only things that turn these sitches around long-term.
I'm at a loss of what I should do now. I don't really feel like going anymore.
As I originally thought, you did have expectations.
She just text me now that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. She feels she knows where her heart is at. She said she would go to better our communication as parents.
Unfortunately very predictable.
She also informed me that her plan this weekend while I was gone was to start moving things to an apartment.
This IMO is good. Remember time and space are the only things that turn these sitches around long-term.
I'm at a loss of what I should do now. I don't really feel like going anymore.
As I originally thought, you did have expectations.
Well, I did have some slight expectations even though they were very low. I feel like by explaining to her that I don't want to go anymore will show her that I'm starting the process of dropping the rope, no pressure and letting her go.
She just text me now that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore.
She said WHAT???? Oh my gosh! I've only heard that about ten bazillion times on these forums! Like, every single person who's posted here has heard that, most have heard it multiple times, even those that later reconciled. WAS's always always always speak in absolutes. But that's only how she feels at this moment, it could change in a year or a month or a day or even in 5 minutes.
She said she would go to better our communication as parents.
I really don't think it'll have much value to you as a couple because it's not about parental communications, it's geared towards saving troubled marriages.
She also informed me that her plan this weekend while I was gone was to start moving things to an apartment.
I agree with LH, separation hurts at first but will really help with your detachment once you get used to your "new normal". It will also eventually help her to learn to miss you.
I'm at a loss of what I should do now. I don't really feel like going anymore.
You might tell her you've been doing some research and that since it's geared towards couples you think it would be inappropriate to go right now and ask her what she thinks (I still think it should in the end be her decision whether you go or not). In my case it was my ex that wanted to go, and she indicated that she was open to saving the M. As it turns out she really wasn't, but I was taking her words at face value. Still, as I said before I'm glad I went and I learned a lot even though it didn't change my sitch.
To AS's first point. My W stated dozens of times during the first few weeks of our sitch that there was no chance at R, Though she did often caveat with "but my feelings could change later".
No expectations:
"She just texted me that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. LOL! Man these WAS's and their crazy talk. I responded by going to work out and then took my son shopping for a new jacket, his old one was looking pretty worn. Oh and I set a new PR in bench press!"
Expectations:
"She just texted me that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. And here I really thought things were turning around. Well I guess that's it, I'm going to sit at home waiting for the D papers to arrive and I might as well write my will while I'm at it because my life is officially over."
Be the former, not the latter.
I feel like by explaining to her that I don't want to go anymore will show her that I'm starting the process of dropping the rope, no pressure and letting her go.
See those are expectations too. You have GOT to drop all these expectations you have! "I'm going to do X expecting it to have Y impact on her." EXPECTATIONS. You have written for 2 pages now that you have no expectations, but then you post them over and over again. DROP THEM! When you drop the rope you will not give a flying crapola what she thinks about it. That's the whole point of dropping the rope.
That´s why "believe nothing that they say" is an useful wild card. Apply it here. You keep working on yourself W1. Go dark, detach, be there for the children. Be strong man. Get your respect back.
I'm planning on telling her what AS said that the research I did is that it is geared toward troubled marriages, not parental communication.
I'm not going to stop her at all in moving out as I do think it gives her a chance to "lose" some things ( being around the kids every day, etc.) and possibly miss me.
I am going to go dark, detach and focus on the kids. I'm planning on going to my GAL that I originally intended to do and she can take this weekend to move her stuff out while I'm not around.
^^^^^^^
That may be the best post I have read from you to date!
I think she wants me to help her move her stuff when the time comes. Like a bed for instance. I have a pickup and she can't move a bed by herself.
Do I help her or tell her to go find someone else....?
lol I'd tell her I was busy...then make yourself scarce that day.
You want the single life...here it is!
lol I'd tell her I was busy...then make yourself scarce that day.
You want the single life...here it is!
That's pretty much how I feel about it! You want to leave our M and leave me but want me to help you in doing so?! Let's be realistic just ONCE for god sake's.
Just don´t say it man. You get some GAL with the kids and way you go. Disappear.
W,
Personal choice. My ex didn't ask, I didn't offer. She moved while I was out of town with the kids.
I believe AS helped and I know J9 helped.
Just know either way it changes nothing.
W,
Personal choice. My ex didn't ask, I didn't offer. She moved while I was out of town with the kids.
I believe AS helped and I know J9 helped.
Just know either way it changes nothing.
She said something about "if I'm around after the kids go to bed." Maybe she meant so I can stay home with the kids while they are asleep and she moves. Not sure. Guess I'll cross that bridge when we get to it. I suppose I can let her use my pickup to move the larger items. After all, we did work together so income and finances were combined and she probably feels like she has the right to use it, which I probably can't argue with.
I'm just thinking ahead, but if she tries to bring up the possibility of "hanging out" at the house between the time when she gets home from work and the kids go to bed, how do I tackle that topic?
IMO, if she's moving out, she's moving out. There is no coming around our house to be around the kids while they are awake only to go retreat to her apartment once they go to sleep. That doesn't work for me. She needs to truly feel what its going to be like, which means I get the kids Sun-Thur (due to her commute to and from work and not being around to get them ready in the morning, pick them up, feed them, etc.) and then she will have them Friday-Sun 3 weekends a month and I'm hoping she will agree to me getting them 1 weekend a month. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. But, I'm sure she will have other ideas.
My plan is, IF this would come up is be straightforward and tell her that doesn't work for me. My time with them is my time with them and you are moving out to be outside and away from the MH and I, which on these days includes the kids as well.
Unless anyone has a better idea of how to handle it?
Absolutely. Boundaries. That doesn't work for me.
Don't offer her the pickup or any help. That sh#t is on her. If you really feel that she has a right to use the pickup, I suppose you can let her use if she asks, but definitely don't offer.
I'm confused, she wants to move out of the house while your children are asleep in it? How the h#ll would that work?
Listen to the advice above and get out of the house that day. You don't want to be around. Go GAL or take the kids out somewhere fun.
Ya, I won't be around and good point on not offering. I suppose if she asks, I can't really say no based on the reasons I've explained.
I don't even really care what she takes to be honest. I can replace whatever she wants to take. Kitchen stuff, decorations, furniture, TVs, etc. Almost want her to take more of that so I can replace it with stuff of my own that I pick out.
I find it odd that she wants to move out during the holiday season....You would think she would just continue to do what we've been doing for a 3-4 more weeks until after Christmas passes but I guess there really isn't any "good" time to do such a thing. It's probably the selfish WW mentality part of it though.
By the way, don't be surprised if she doesn't follow through and move out. Seen it before.
It does feel like the final nail in the coffin. But, I've read sitches on here where there is R even after the WW moves out. I'm not expecting it, however. Usually when my W makes a decision it's pretty final. She's too stubborn and determined to be "right" and can't admit she's wrong. There will be no more pressure from me. I'll be going dark on her with anything unrelated to the kids. I'm going to focus on GAL for me (have quite a few things already lined up for the next couple months) and being the best father imaginable for my kids. I started tearing up just a few min ago and the thought of having the conversation with them and basically destroying any sense of family they've ever had. There is a physical pain associated with thinking about that. I'm not sure how my W wants to have that conversation but I will not lie to them if she wants to try to portray this as a joint decision. I will let them know that Dad did everything he could and this isn't something that I want but we need to let Mom figure out what she needs to be happy.
I've prayed so hard for things to work out. I went to daily mass today and prayed that Retrouvaille would somehow help us. Ironically, it wasn't a half hour after mass that I got that text from W. Maybe these prayers going unanswered and seemingly the opposite happen right afterwards is a sign that this just isn't God's plan for me. That then reminded me of Garth Brooks' song "Unanswered Prayers." Maybe that's what is going on here......
W,
Personal choice. My ex didn't ask, I didn't offer. She moved while I was out of town with the kids.
I believe AS helped and I know J9 helped.
Just know either way it changes nothing.
I sort of helped, but it was part of our informal agreement on splitting stuff up. In lieu of her taking half the furniture I agreed to buy furniture for her at Ikea and set it up at her new place. The idea of coming home to a half empty house gave me a lot of anxiety so this was really more about me wanting to keep my "home base" surroundings unchanged, I felt like I was going through enough change as it was! The stuff that she did take I just put in the garage and we arranged for her to pick it all up while I was at work one day.
By the way, don't be surprised if she doesn't follow through and move out. Seen it before.
I would be surprised and I'm not holding out hope she doesn't. I'm done with expectations. If that does happen, I'd rather it be a surprise than be holding out hope she doesn't only to be disappointed all over again when she actually does.
I get what you are saying though.....I think the best way for me to process all of this is to drop any and all expectations that something good will happen and be completely resigned to the fact that at this time next year (and probably much sooner), I will be legally D.
If not, I would rather it be a pleasant surprise if it were to happen!
Sadly Wanted... I think that is where all of us have to get to in the end. Acceptance and renewal... of ourselves mostly. I, too, fully expect to be D by this time next year. A pleasant surprise would be great... and those will come. They just may not be what we think. Have faith, look ahead, KNOW that you will emerge from this a much better person and look forward to the wonderful unexpected things to come. It is hard to imagine at this juncture. I KNOW this all too well. Like you, I have been struggling but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel and each day it gets just a little bit brighter. (((HUGS)))
I am not sure her not moving out is a positive. It is more neutral. But WAWs have a way of talking and not acting.
Sadly Wanted... I think that is where all of us have to get to in the end. Acceptance and renewal... of ourselves mostly. I, too, fully expect to be D by this time next year. A pleasant surprise would be great... and those will come. They just may not be what we think. Have faith, look ahead, KNOW that you will emerge from this a much better person and look forward to the wonderful unexpected things to come. It is hard to imagine at this juncture. I KNOW this all too well. Like you, I have been struggling but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel and each day it gets just a little bit brighter. (((HUGS)))
Thanks so much, D. Yes, I think the odds are never in our favor when we get to this juncture. I just need to put my full trust in God that this the path he’s chosen for me. My dad was divorced before he married my mom. I’d have to think that now he realizes it was the best thing that happened to him. Otherwise, my sister and I wouldn’t exist and he’s built a life with my mom for more than 40 years. Faith is believing and trusting in the unknown. I’m trying to be mindful of that and keep it close.
Sadly Wanted... I think that is where all of us have to get to in the end. Acceptance and renewal... of ourselves mostly. I, too, fully expect to be D by this time next year. A pleasant surprise would be great... and those will come. They just may not be what we think. Have faith, look ahead, KNOW that you will emerge from this a much better person and look forward to the wonderful unexpected things to come. It is hard to imagine at this juncture. I KNOW this all too well. Like you, I have been struggling but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel and each day it gets just a little bit brighter. (((HUGS)))
Thanks so much, D. Yes, I think the odds are never in our favor when we get to this juncture. I just need to put my full trust in God that this the path he’s chosen for me. My dad was divorced before he married my mom. I’d have to think that now he realizes it was the best thing that happened to him. Otherwise, my sister and I wouldn’t exist and he’s built a life with my mom for more than 40 years. Faith is believing and trusting in the unknown. I’m trying to be mindful of that and keep it close.
Amen. Very well said.
Wanted,
Just wanted to offer some reassurance to you regarding the move out. I had a fortunate opportunity with th ein laws going on a 40 day cruise. I didn't force but firmly suggested W go stay there while they were away. There were some bumps getting a child minding schedule set up but it settled down and while not ideal for the kids right now it is working. I can tell you that I am now dreading the day the in laws return and W has to come back home. It is all what you make it but life by yourself is not bad, actually I would say it is better. It gives you the freedom to do as you please, it gives you freedom from all the chaos of the situation. It allows you time to really process everything and really focus on yourself and not the sitch. It has really helped me make leaps and bounds when it comes to letting go and detachment. I'm just speculating but I think it benefits the WAS as well. It allows them some time to get a taste of what life without you is actually like, it likely also gives them some time to grasp the reality of what they are doing, just guesses though.
Catching up on your sitch I really think that her moving out would probably be the best thing for you. I know it's tough to see it but for your sanity and mental well being I really believe it would be a better option at this point.
Wanted,
Just wanted to offer some reassurance to you regarding the move out. I had a fortunate opportunity with th ein laws going on a 40 day cruise. I didn't force but firmly suggested W go stay there while they were away. There were some bumps getting a child minding schedule set up but it settled down and while not ideal for the kids right now it is working. I can tell you that I am now dreading the day the in laws return and W has to come back home. It is all what you make it but life by yourself is not bad, actually I would say it is better. It gives you the freedom to do as you please, it gives you freedom from all the chaos of the situation. It allows you time to really process everything and really focus on yourself and not the sitch. It has really helped me make leaps and bounds when it comes to letting go and detachment. I'm just speculating but I think it benefits the WAS as well. It allows them some time to get a taste of what life without you is actually like, it likely also gives them some time to grasp the reality of what they are doing, just guesses though.
Catching up on your sitch I really think that her moving out would probably be the best thing for you. I know it's tough to see it but for your sanity and mental well being I really believe it would be a better option at this point.
Thanks for the reassurances, RH. I really do appreciate them. I think everything you said is completely accurate. We weren't getting anywhere with the IHS. Seeing me everyday I'm sure was a constant reminder of whatever she resented me for. And then I didn't do myself any favors my continuing to talk to her about the M. I really screwed up big time in that department.
If you've read my sitch from the beginning, you will have probably picked up on the fact that my W has a lot of her own personal stuff to work through, heal from and some self-discovery that needs to take place. While she claims she's making leaps and bounds in that department, I don't think that can be the case in such a short time. And her actions of communicating with OM for about 5 weeks after the BD and then communicating with the other OM from earlier this year yesterday tells me she isn't as far along in the process she needs to go through as she probably realizes.
I have no doubts that the physical S will definitely help me detach. She's is a gorgeous woman, so seeing her every day hurts knowing I can't be with her. It might be the actual time and space she has said she needs that she hasn't really been afforded due to living together and continuing to care for our 3 kids. And like I said before, my continuing to go to her with my thoughts and feelings up until about 2-3 weeks ago didn't help one bit either.
Maybe this will make her miss me and the life she had with all of us together and maybe not. That's something I can't control and will not let myself worry about. I'm going to focus on moving forward by detaching. Like I told Steve, if the opportunity for R presents itself, I would rather be pleasantly surprised by it than be counting on it or expecting it. If it's meant to be, that will happen. If not, I'm going to start the process of becoming a better version of myself for my next R.
Wanted,
Just wanted to offer some reassurance to you regarding the move out. I had a fortunate opportunity with th ein laws going on a 40 day cruise. I didn't force but firmly suggested W go stay there while they were away. There were some bumps getting a child minding schedule set up but it settled down and while not ideal for the kids right now it is working. I can tell you that I am now dreading the day the in laws return and W has to come back home. It is all what you make it but life by yourself is not bad, actually I would say it is better. It gives you the freedom to do as you please, it gives you freedom from all the chaos of the situation. It allows you time to really process everything and really focus on yourself and not the sitch. It has really helped me make leaps and bounds when it comes to letting go and detachment. I'm just speculating but I think it benefits the WAS as well. It allows them some time to get a taste of what life without you is actually like, it likely also gives them some time to grasp the reality of what they are doing, just guesses though.
Catching up on your sitch I really think that her moving out would probably be the best thing for you. I know it's tough to see it but for your sanity and mental well being I really believe it would be a better option at this point.
Yeah, well said. I was super panicky about my ex leaving. I told her I was supporting her decision no matter what but man, it was the last thing in the world I wanted. I was scared it was the end, scared I couldn't do it on my own, scared I would be crushed financially, scared of... well everything. Panic attacks ruled the day. The first week she was gone I had the kids and it didn't seem that bad. The next week she had the kids AND the dogs and I never felt so utterly alone in my life. It was horrible I just wanted to curl up in a corner and cry. Everywhere in the house I went there were just constant reminders of the family that wasn't there anymore. To combat those feelings I went out and GAL'd my heart out. I occupied every moment with something, anything. At first I could still not think about anything but my family. But as time went on, and I had my kids again for a week, then not, then again and on and on my GAL went and it didn't seem so bad anymore. And soon I was like "wow, I can stretch out in the whole bed, it's all mine now!" and I was like "tonight I don't feel like doing anything except sitting and watching movies, and W isn't here to make me feel guilty for having the surround sound up too high so I'm cranking it" and "it's 10 pm and I want to work out, and hey it's only me here so off I go!" and "I wish I could just drop everything and go for a motorcycle ride. Oh wait, I can!" And man there's an R/C fly-in this weekend, I wish I could go, oh yeah I can, I am there!" The point being at first you'll miss your family life, but it's also really, really nice to have time to yourself to do WHATEVER YOU WANT. I had not had that for 20 years and suddenly I did, and at first it was scary, but eventually it was exhilarating. I love my alone time so much now that I can't imagine ever getting married again.
I think if LBS's could see the big picture they wouldn't be so sad and forlorn and clingy. If they could see what their life without the WAS looks like, and that not only is it not-so-bad but might even be pretty darned great, they would let go a lot sooner. Paradoxically that's exactly what they need to do to possibly win the WAS back. But fear prevents them from doing it.
Wanted,
Just wanted to offer some reassurance to you regarding the move out. I had a fortunate opportunity with th ein laws going on a 40 day cruise. I didn't force but firmly suggested W go stay there while they were away. There were some bumps getting a child minding schedule set up but it settled down and while not ideal for the kids right now it is working. I can tell you that I am now dreading the day the in laws return and W has to come back home. It is all what you make it but life by yourself is not bad, actually I would say it is better. It gives you the freedom to do as you please, it gives you freedom from all the chaos of the situation. It allows you time to really process everything and really focus on yourself and not the sitch. It has really helped me make leaps and bounds when it comes to letting go and detachment. I'm just speculating but I think it benefits the WAS as well. It allows them some time to get a taste of what life without you is actually like, it likely also gives them some time to grasp the reality of what they are doing, just guesses though.
Catching up on your sitch I really think that her moving out would probably be the best thing for you. I know it's tough to see it but for your sanity and mental well being I really believe it would be a better option at this point.
Yeah, well said. I was super panicky about my ex leaving. I told her I was supporting her decision no matter what but man, it was the last thing in the world I wanted. I was scared it was the end, scared I couldn't do it on my own, scared I would be crushed financially, scared of... well everything. Panic attacks ruled the day. The first week she was gone I had the kids and it didn't seem that bad. The next week she had the kids AND the dogs and I never felt so utterly alone in my life. It was horrible I just wanted to curl up in a corner and cry. Everywhere in the house I went there were just constant reminders of the family that wasn't there anymore. To combat those feelings I went out and GAL'd my heart out. I occupied every moment with something, anything. At first I could still not think about anything but my family. But as time went on, and I had my kids again for a week, then not, then again and on and on my GAL went and it didn't seem so bad anymore. And soon I was like "wow, I can stretch out in the whole bed, it's all mine now!" and I was like "tonight I don't feel like doing anything except sitting and watching movies, and W isn't here to make me feel guilty for having the surround sound up too high so I'm cranking it" and "it's 10 pm and I want to work out, and hey it's only me here so off I go!" and "I wish I could just drop everything and go for a motorcycle ride. Oh wait, I can!" And man there's an R/C fly-in this weekend, I wish I could go, oh yeah I can, I am there!" The point being at first you'll miss your family life, but it's also really, really nice to have time to yourself to do WHATEVER YOU WANT. I had not had that for 20 years and suddenly I did, and at first it was scary, but eventually it was exhilarating. I love my alone time so much now that I can't imagine ever getting married again.
I think if LBS's could see the big picture they wouldn't be so sad and forlorn and clingy. If they could see what their life without the WAS looks like, and that not only is it not-so-bad but might even be pretty darned great, they would let go a lot sooner. Paradoxically that's exactly what they need to do to possibly win the WAS back. But fear prevents them from doing it.
AS, as always, you make a ton of good points. I've already sort of talked with W how kids' arrangements will go via text. She's on board with my suggestion, basically because it is really the only option with her 1hr commute each way to her new job. I'll have the kids Sun-Thur and then she will have them Fri-Sun for 3 weeks a month and she's allowing me to have 1 weekend a month. I told her I should really get one weekend to be able to go out and GAL with them. So that part might help me with not having an empty house right off the bat. That first weekend will probably be a little freaky. However, and I hate to even really say it because I love my kids to death and if W and I had opposite schedules I would give anything to be the one to do these things for them, but after a week of caring for them by myself, a little down time will probably be looked forward to! And then I get them back after only 2-3 days so I won't be going a week straight without them.
I did acknowledge to W that with this arrangement, the weekend I get them means they are basically with me 2 solid weeks. I told her that it isn't fair for the kids to not see her for that long and so I would work with her somehow whether it be maybe spending a weekend day with her if we don't have anything planned or maybe having her over for a meal one night each of the weeks.
She did say that "she's open/willing to share meals with all of us and that might be good for the kids." I didn't respond. This is exactly what I will be against at least initially. My time is my time and her time is her time and I won't be comfortable with that right now. If she suggests it again I'll tell her that. I'm only willing to that once a week during that time when I have them for the extended period. I am not in favor of it becoming a routine think, week in and week out. She wants to leave and this is just part of being a divided home.
She did double down on the "reconciling is not an option for me" statement she sent to me this morning. It wasn't because I asked either. She said "there has been endless reflection, thought and prayer behind the statement." Ok.....Thanks for making that clear again, I guess!
She did send me a text a little bit ago complaining about her first paycheck at the new job. There were more deductions taken out than she was anticipating. She said she will have to reanalyze the benefits she took. Might be the first of many little obstacles to overcome with her "new" life! I didn't respond to that message.
I brought this from Harvey's thread.
I, too, filled out an online dating profile. Not sure why.
If I had to guess a last ditch effort to get a reaction out of your W. "Illusion of Action"
Wanted you are the last person on the board who is ready to date. You have a lot of issues you need to work on before hand. If you don't you will be back on here shortly down the road.
It also helps me to realize that there are a lot of very good looking women on there that have their status as "divorced."
Yes that is why we tell people that there life isn't over and there are plenty of women out there who would want to be with them. Provided of course they do the hard work.
Between this forum and that, it's sort of a good reminder that a lot of people have gone through what I am, currently. I don't think I'm at a point where I would enter into a semi-serious relationship, but it would be nice to interact with some women who show general interest in me just as a confidence builder.
Why do you need women to validate you? Because you don't love and value yourself. That's why you have to get there first. A woman is just the icing on the cake.
The part that gives me anxiety is actually reaching out...what do you say as an ice breaker?! I've always been sort of the "shy guy." Was never the outlandish, outgoing dude that would just walk up to girls and start talking. I guess I'm going to have to get over that fear, if you want to call it that, for it to ever work.
That's why you do the work first. Practice talking to strangers, cashiers, waitresses Etc.
To put it bluntly, you have no business being on a dating website and the fact that you are right now speaks volumes my friend.
To put it bluntly, you have no business being on a dating website and the fact that you are right now speaks volumes my friend.
And it is a violation of sandi's rules. The worst thing you can do is to complicate your situation. There is no bigger way to complicate your sitch than to introduce an OW into it!
I brought this from Harvey's thread.
I, too, filled out an online dating profile. Not sure why.
If I had to guess a last ditch effort to get a reaction out of your W. "Illusion of Action"
Wanted you are the last person on the board who is ready to date. You have a lot of issues you need to work on before hand. If you don't you will be back on here shortly down the road. .
My W has no clue I’m on there, so there is no Illusion of Action. I’m not on it to date right now. I, more or less, signed up to see what’s out there. Like I said, I’m “invisible” on it right now. No one can find me in a search if they tried.
W,
I know I am being hard on you but I am trying to help.
Your W is moving out this weekend you have yet to tell the kids about the pending D and instead of researching things like "how to tell the kids" your signing up on OLD websites to see what's out there. Do you understand where i am coming from?
I going to make some assumptions here so bare with me and let me know if I am right. From what you have told us your W is very attractive. That is also backed by the fact that 2 of your sold called loser friends have ruined friendships over her so I am guessing she is not chopped liver. Since like typically attracts like I am guessing you that you are also an attractive man. I also now know you are a lawyer. Having said that, if you put in the hard work this next year being a great dad, in self improvement, and the gym there will plenty of opportunities for you out there in the dating world.
This takes time. I am 4 years from bomb and am finally starting to reap the rewards of the hard work I put in. Take your time, there is no rush here. If you do not put the work I can guarantee you will be back here in 5 years.
So, I went on my GAL trip this past weekend. It was great. Was by myself the entire time and enjoyed it. Tried to initiate conversations with people around me, both men and women, which helped me in the confidence department.
Didn't have hardly any communication with W the whole time. Both W and I were in the same town (not our hometown) before I left on Friday. I was there for work and she was there to see her IC. W called me after her IC session as I was eating and asked how my work stuff went. There were some snafu's with it, so I explained all of those to her. She asked where I was and told her I was eating. Her response was, "Oh, yum. I was thinking about going there too." She never did and I was almost finished up when she called and left shortly thereafter to start the drive. I made it a point to end the call first, and as we were hanging up she told me she really hoped I would have a ton of fun this weekend and hoped that I could be relaxed since the work snafu's from earlier in the day were kind of hectic and troublesome.
I called her phone to FaceTime with the kids when I arrived at the hotel I was staying at. Didn't talk to her but talked to the kids. The kids called me Saturday morning to FaceTime and to show me what their Elf on the Shelf brought them (Xmas pajamas). On Saturday, I was at the mall and wanted to do some shopping for the kids, so I had to reach out to her to confirm clothing sizes. I was correct in what I had thought, but wanted to double check just to make sure. That night, while I was at the game, I sent her a few pictures of the game and halftime entertainment and told her they were for the kids. She said she would show them to them Sunday morning since they were already in bed. She then said, "I hope it's a great game." I didn't respond. Called her phone again on Sunday morning as I was driving home to FaceTime with the kids again. Didn't converse with her at all. Once I got home Sunday afternoon, we didn't talk at all either.
Giving her time and space. My sole focus is on not initiating any conversation with her. If she wants to talk to me, I'll be pleasant and listen, etc. but I will not be going to her unless it is an emergency of some sort. I did have to text her this morning to find out some information regarding a couple of the kids' after school activity logistics.
One interesting tidbit I did notice when I got home was that one of my books that I had picked up and had on my dresser in the MBR was gone. I ordered Collin Tipping's 'Radical Forgiveness' and Radical Self-Forgiveness.' I have had them for about a month-3 weeks and hadn't started reading them. TBH, I ordered the Radical Self-Forgiveness more for her than me and guess which one was gone?! No expectations though. A book isn't going to change her mind. If they would, the ones she's been reading, and there have been a lot, that deal with self help, etc. would have done that if she would truly take what she's reading to heart. I've mentioned this before, but I'm pretty sure these books aren't telling her to focus entirely on the negative aspects of situations or life and that is all she's been doing for 2 months straight. And probably for a lot longer than that looking back on everything.
No word of when she's moving out or anything like that so far. Last week, she told me the previous tenant of this apartment she's moving into was moving out on Friday but she guessed they would have to go in and clean it, etc. before it was ready. During the phone call on Friday, she told me she was going to do some holiday decorating to "get the kids in the Xmas spirit." When I got back, the house was all decorated for Xmas. The only stockings that were hung were the 3 kids'. Mine and W's were not on the fireplace. Deep down that sort of hurts, but I didn't show it. Just another reminder that things will never be the same.
I'm going to do 'something' that I haven't had the will power to do thus far and that is "do nothing." I won't be approaching her to ask when she's moving out, when we are going to tell the kids, or anything of that nature. She can come to me with all of that. It'll be interesting when/how she communicates any of that stuff to me. Her communication skills with me are terrible. Might have something to do with the "fear" she spoke of in our conversation with the Bishop right after Thanksgiving, I don't know. She informed me of when she was starting her job via a 'footnote' on a sticky note on my desk that had a work message she took for me on it. She also informed me of her plans to move out via text when we were talking about the possibility of Retrouvaille last week.
W,
I going to make some assumptions here so bare with me and let me know if I am right. From what you have told us your W is very attractive. That is also backed by the fact that 2 of your sold called loser friends have ruined friendships over her so I am guessing she is not chopped liver. Since like typically attracts like I am guessing you that you are also an attractive man. I also now know you are a lawyer. Having said that, if you put in the hard work this next year being a great dad, in self improvement, and the gym there will plenty of opportunities for you out there in the dating world.
This takes time. I am 4 years from bomb and am finally starting to reap the rewards of the hard work I put in. Take your time, there is no rush here. If you do not put the work I can guarantee you will be back here in 5 years.
I'm very hesitant to consider myself an attractive man. My W has told me I'm handsome, even after BD, but I question whether that's just lip service or what. "Believe nothing that they say!" I never had a problem getting girls in college, either. I think my confidence is shot (being cheated on 3 times tends to do that, after all I am human!) and I've sort of always been self-conscious about some of my features. One being my weight which I've been working on these past 2 months. I've lost roughly 30 lbs since BD on September 19th. Sort of plateaued now over the past 2 weeks and still have some more to go before I would be satisfied.
I've been following the alpha male thread. I need to start working towards regaining some of those traits. I think I had them in college and before I was M. If I'm not truly "handsome," maybe it was my self confidence that scored me attraction from girls in college and ultimately my drop-dead gorgeous W. I think there is some truth to the fact that women don't put as much emphasis on looks as men do and maybe my past self is an example of that. Confidence and self-assuredness are things that I can control and change and I aim to do just that.
Wanted,
Go grab your stocking and hang it on the fireplace. I would say hang W's as well. I'm not saying do this for a reaction from W, do this for yourself. I'm assuming you still plan on celebrating Christmas, it would appear the stockings are part of your typical Christmas as they are mine and many others on here, so go hang them. You are right, things will never be the same with e relationship but that doesn't need to apply to the rest of your life.
Wow lots of good and lots of bad in here W.
First the good:
Good job on not taking the bait "Yum, I was thinking of eating there." So clearly she was wanting you to invite her there. Good job on not talking to her when you FT the kids. Also not responding when you sent pics (though the sending of the pics was in the bad category). Well done on the having fun, reaching out to others and being yourself.
Now the bad:
Sending the pics. Say what you want but that was you trying to get her to respond or at a minimum see you were having a good time. Unnecessary. You could have easily shown the kids your pics yourself when you got home. Bad, noticing the stockings. This shows you still have expectations and you are still microfocusing on what she does. Bad that you left a book for her. Even if she took it. Buy books for you. Leave her to buy books for herself. (Note, this is one I broke myself so I know it is bad. Pressure and pursuit, even if you didn't TELL her it was for her.)
Remember, W, it is hard to take steps forward. All of the good things above were baby steps. While the bad are giant leaps backwards. This is why sandi says to be diligent on your changes and not revert.
Finally, I like the plan moving forward. Doing nothing is the best something that you can do!
W,
I going to make some assumptions here so bare with me and let me know if I am right. From what you have told us your W is very attractive. That is also backed by the fact that 2 of your sold called loser friends have ruined friendships over her so I am guessing she is not chopped liver. Since like typically attracts like I am guessing you that you are also an attractive man. I also now know you are a lawyer. Having said that, if you put in the hard work this next year being a great dad, in self improvement, and the gym there will plenty of opportunities for you out there in the dating world.
This takes time. I am 4 years from bomb and am finally starting to reap the rewards of the hard work I put in. Take your time, there is no rush here. If you do not put the work I can guarantee you will be back here in 5 years.
I'm very hesitant to consider myself an attractive man. My W has told me I'm handsome, even after BD, but I question whether that's just lip service or what. "Believe nothing that they say!" I never had a problem getting girls in college, either. I think my confidence is shot (being cheated on 3 times tends to do that, after all I am human!) and I've sort of always been self-conscious about some of my features. One being my weight which I've been working on these past 2 months. I've lost roughly 30 lbs since BD on September 19th. Sort of plateaued now over the past 2 weeks and still have some more to go before I would be satisfied.
I've been following the alpha male thread. I need to start working towards regaining some of those traits. I think I had them in college and before I was M. If I'm not truly "handsome," maybe it was my self confidence that scored me attraction from girls in college and ultimately my drop-dead gorgeous W. I think there is some truth to the fact that women don't put as much emphasis on looks as men do and maybe my past self is an example of that. Confidence and self-assuredness are things that I can control and change and I aim to do just that.
Did you say you are in IC? You need to discuss self confidence, and self-assuredness and self-esteem with an IC. Even if you are butt ugly, that doesn't mean that you are without value. Don't ever sell yourself short for shortcomings. We all have them. Succeed despite them.
Wanted,
if you are an attractive, successful man, there will be a line of women for you to choose from. It only takes one moment, one night for you to get out there, talk to some women to realize "Holy cow, I forgot that women find me attractive. Beautiful women are out there and looking". It happened to me back in August and I was almost beaming after that night.
There are also beautiful women of good character to choose from as well. Your life will improve, one way or the other, as soon as you decide you want it to.
there will be a line of women for you to choose from. It only takes one moment, one night for you to get out there, talk to some women to realize "Holy cow, I forgot that women find me attractive. Beautiful women are out there and looking". It happened to me back in August and I was almost beaming after that night.
There are also beautiful women of good character to choose from as well. Your life will improve, one way or the other, as soon as you decide you want it to.
Please provide GPS coordinates where these ladies can be found. And do they come individually wrapped or only in bulk?
Now the bad:
Sending the pics. Say what you want but that was you trying to get her to respond or at a minimum see you were having a good time. Unnecessary. You could have easily shown the kids your pics yourself when you got home. Bad, noticing the stockings. This shows you still have expectations and you are still microfocusing on what she does. Bad that you left a book for her. Even if she took it. Buy books for you. Leave her to buy books for herself. (Note, this is one I broke myself so I know it is bad. Pressure and pursuit, even if you didn't TELL her it was for her.)
I get what you are saying. However, just for clarification purposes, my two girls have taken an interest when "my team" is on and I'm watching them. There was a 'Dress as your favorite sports figure' day at school a few weeks back so I ordered them T-Shirts with the numbers and name on the back of two players on my team. They were so excited and it made me so happy watching them get excited. So, now when I watch games, they are always looking for the players who's t-shirts each of them have. I told them before I left that I would get pictures of "their players." So, while I totally understand what you are saying, there wasn't any intent on my part to get a reaction from her. However, in hindsight I probably should have just waited until I got home to share the pics with them.
Regarding the books -- again, I absolutely understand what you are saying. Those books have been on my dresser in the MBR that she hardly ever sets foot in anymore. Yes, they were out in the open, but that's mainly because I do all of my reading at night in bed. I think back when I ordered them and I was in the pressure/pursuit mode big time, I told her that I got these books and she's welcome to read them if she wanted. She has said things in the past about being "unable to forgive herself." So when I ordered the Radical Forgiveness book for myself I saw the Radical Self-Forgiveness one when I was checking out and added it to my order. I'm not going to lie, I have no intention of reading that book. I don't think there is anything I can't forgive myself for. I own my mistakes in my marriage and I can forgive myself for them because in all reality, my shortcomings are pretty common and now that I know them, easily correctable. The typical shortcomings that are most prevalent among men and communication. When I ordered the books I was more concerned about forgiving her in a healthy and honest way for the A's if we ended up R. If/When we D, I'm not sure I'm interested in reading the other book at this time either. Maybe down the road. Right now I'm still struggling, heavily, with her idea of just walking away, destroying my kids' only sense of family and having no desire at all to try to fix our M. Again, I don't think my shortcomings are at a level where D should be Option A without trying to fix our issues first. But, I've not come to terms with the fact that that isn't for me to decide or can control. Still mind boggling to say the least.
Speaking of the MBR. I find this odd, but when I've been gone, I've told my W that she's more than welcome to stay in our room since it's the only other bedroom upstairs beside my kids'. They are little and still sometimes get up in the middle of the night looking for Mom or Dad. She has still chosen to sleep on the couch. Kind of confusing, to me, but whatever. She can do what she wants. So, last night D7 told me that her and D5 slept in our bed the night before. She said that she told Mommy to sleep with them but Mommy said no and slept on the couch. Maybe one of the other prior WW that are on here can speak to this mindset, but I don't really understand it? I'm not in the house at all, why wouldn't you want to sleep in the bed instead of on the couch?
Did you say you are in IC? You need to discuss self confidence, and self-assuredness and self-esteem with an IC. Even if you are butt ugly, that doesn't mean that you are without value. Don't ever sell yourself short for shortcomings. We all have them. Succeed despite them.
I am. Good idea, Steve. I'll bring that up at my next session. I think I can research and read online too to help with it as well since I'm of the belief that you can never have too much information. That belief has burned me these past couple months with snooping though, haha!
Maybe one of the other prior WW that are on here can speak to this mindset, but I don't really understand it? I'm not in the house at all, why wouldn't you want to sleep in the bed instead of on the couch?
Major cheesless tunnel not worth the 15 seconds it took you to write it.
Now the bad:
Sending the pics. Say what you want but that was you trying to get her to respond or at a minimum see you were having a good time. Unnecessary. You could have easily shown the kids your pics yourself when you got home. Bad, noticing the stockings. This shows you still have expectations and you are still microfocusing on what she does. Bad that you left a book for her. Even if she took it. Buy books for you. Leave her to buy books for herself. (Note, this is one I broke myself so I know it is bad. Pressure and pursuit, even if you didn't TELL her it was for her.)
I get what you are saying. However, just for clarification purposes, my two girls have taken an interest when "my team" is on and I'm watching them. There was a 'Dress as your favorite sports figure' day at school a few weeks back so I ordered them T-Shirts with the numbers and name on the back of two players on my team. They were so excited and it made me so happy watching them get excited. So, now when I watch games, they are always looking for the players who's t-shirts each of them have. I told them before I left that I would get pictures of "their players." So, while I totally understand what you are saying, there wasn't any intent on my part to get a reaction from her. However, in hindsight I probably should have just waited until I got home to share the pics with them.
Regarding the books -- again, I absolutely understand what you are saying. Those books have been on my dresser in the MBR that she hardly ever sets foot in anymore. Yes, they were out in the open, but that's mainly because I do all of my reading at night in bed. I think back when I ordered them and I was in the pressure/pursuit mode big time, I told her that I got these books and she's welcome to read them if she wanted. She has said things in the past about being "unable to forgive herself." So when I ordered the Radical Forgiveness book for myself I saw the Radical Self-Forgiveness one when I was checking out and added it to my order. I'm not going to lie, I have no intention of reading that book. I don't think there is anything I can't forgive myself for. I own my mistakes in my marriage and I can forgive myself for them because in all reality, my shortcomings are pretty common and now that I know them, easily correctable. The typical shortcomings that are most prevalent among men and communication. When I ordered the books I was more concerned about forgiving her in a healthy and honest way for the A's if we ended up R. If/When we D, I'm not sure I'm interested in reading the other book at this time either. Maybe down the road. Right now I'm still struggling, heavily, with her idea of just walking away, destroying my kids' only sense of family and having no desire at all to try to fix our M. Again, I don't think my shortcomings are at a level where D should be Option A without trying to fix our issues first. But, I've not come to terms with the fact that that isn't for me to decide or can control. Still mind boggling to say the least.
Speaking of the MBR. I find this odd, but when I've been gone, I've told my W that she's more than welcome to stay in our room since it's the only other bedroom upstairs beside my kids'. They are little and still sometimes get up in the middle of the night looking for Mom or Dad. She has still chosen to sleep on the couch. Kind of confusing, to me, but whatever. She can do what she wants. So, last night D7 told me that her and D5 slept in our bed the night before. She said that she told Mommy to sleep with them but Mommy said no and slept on the couch. Maybe one of the other prior WW that are on here can speak to this mindset, but I don't really understand it? I'm not in the house at all, why wouldn't you want to sleep in the bed instead of on the couch?
You know your intentions better than I do. However, if I perceived things this way....then likely she did too. Just a thought.
On the not sleeping in the bed, my guess is that would be a step back towards the MR even without you in the bed. And she is not ready to take that step yet.
Wanted,
if you are an attractive, successful man, there will be a line of women for you to choose from. It only takes one moment, one night for you to get out there, talk to some women to realize "Holy cow, I forgot that women find me attractive. Beautiful women are out there and looking". It happened to me back in August and I was almost beaming after that night.
There are also beautiful women of good character to choose from as well. Your life will improve, one way or the other, as soon as you decide you want it to.
Even though I know my sitch is different in some respects from others here, I need to keep all this in mind.
For me, it’s also working on confidence. I realize that when things were really amazing in life, I had tons of confidence (or the other way around), and that was when I was the most attractive to women. I also remember that for most of my life pre-W, there was usually a young lady who was into me, or I had the opportunity (but often I didn’t have the confidence or self-awareness to cash it in). What I would tell younger Bo is that there are plenty of awesome, amazing, attractive women out there, and if this one doesn’t work out, another will come in time.
The good news for me is that at present I work in a female-dominated field (but W works in a primarily male-dominated field so yeah :-/ ). What I should do is work on having confidence in talking with the women in my field—say “Hi X..., how are you” to the lovelies I work with but not be a creeper about it. But I also know that there are plenty of really great young women out there in case W decides she really wants S / D.
You know your intentions better than I do. However, if I perceived things this way....then likely she did too. Just a thought.
On the not sleeping in the bed, my guess is that would be a step back towards the MR even without you in the bed. And she is not ready to take that step yet.
Great point on her perception!
That's sort of what I was thinking, as well. Not that it matters one bit what her reasons are, I'm still going to continue as I have been whether or not she did decide to sleep in there or not, I was still somewhat curious what others' takes were on it.
Wanted,
if you are an attractive, successful man, there will be a line of women for you to choose from. It only takes one moment, one night for you to get out there, talk to some women to realize "Holy cow, I forgot that women find me attractive. Beautiful women are out there and looking". It happened to me back in August and I was almost beaming after that night.
There are also beautiful women of good character to choose from as well. Your life will improve, one way or the other, as soon as you decide you want it to.
Even though I know my sitch is different in some respects from others here, I need to keep all this in mind.
For me, it’s also working on confidence. I realize that when things were really amazing in life, I had tons of confidence (or the other way around), and that was when I was the most attractive to women. I also remember that for most of my life pre-W, there was usually a young lady who was into me, or I had the opportunity (but often I didn’t have the confidence or self-awareness to cash it in). What I would tell younger Bo is that there are plenty of awesome, amazing, attractive women out there, and if this one doesn’t work out, another will come in time.
Yep, totally with you on all of that. I remember one girl, in particular, that I was super in to that lived in the apartment below me in college. We would flirt back and forth and after she "moved on" told me she was waiting for me to make a move but since I didn't, she assumed I wasn't into her. Not sure she really believed that and was probably using that as an excuse, because looking back on it now, it was probably more the fact that I didn't take the initiative to make a move and not so much what she told me her assumptions were. Not having the confidence to make the move probably cost me the 'attraction' she had in me initially.
I’m just trying to prepare for the possible conversation.....what if she asks me to help her move her bed or some other large item? I’ve already decided what I’m going to say if she asks me to use my pickup. I plan on saying something like, “I’m not comfortable allowing you to, but I understand that since we worked together, our combined income paid for it, so I can’t really say no.”
What’s the best way to turn down her request if she asks me to help physically move anything? I can’t really use “I’m busy” as an excuse because chances are it will be some evening and I live in a small town where there isn’t anything going on on the weekdays. Plus she will read right through that if I did use “I’m busy” as an excuse. If she would ask on a weekend I can at least plan something and be busy so it would be valid.
Wanted, step back and breathe. Do not try to solve problems you do not have.
As far as helping her move, you will get split advice on this. My advice is to never help her with something you disagree with. Personally, if she is moving it is on her to figure out how to move her crap. Others will say that a little sugar here goes further than vinegar. Follow your gut.
I'd personally let her know that you are not lifting a finger to help her leave. But that is me.
Wanted, step back and breathe. Do not try to solve problems you do not have.
As far as helping her move, you will get split advice on this. My advice is to never help her with something you disagree with. Personally, if she is moving it is on her to figure out how to move her crap. Others will say that a little sugar here goes further than vinegar. Follow your gut.
I'd personally let her know that you are not lifting a finger to help her leave. But that is me.
Wanted: Imaginary problems don’t make real problems better or go away.
I’ve also thought about this when / if W drops S / D bomb on me. Fat chance I’m helping you pack up, move out, whatever. I put together most of our present townhouse / living arrangement. She can barely clean up stuff on the floor on her side of the bed.
Steve and Bo,
My gut is where both of yours are. I’m not helping and don’t want to help. Just didn’t know how to respond if she poses the question. I’m guessing AS or LH will be by to tell me it won’t matter either way. She isn’t going to D me or decide to R based on whether or not I help her move. There is probably a lot of truth to that!
"I do not feel comfortable helping you leave me." Something short, and sweet.
Steve and Bo,
My gut is where both of yours are. I’m not helping and don’t want to help. Just didn’t know how to respond if she poses the question. I’m guessing AS or LH will be by to tell me it won’t matter either way. She isn’t going to D me or decide to R based on whether or not I help her move. There is probably a lot of truth to that!
If you feel like it won’t make a difference either way, DON’T DO IT. Why create more work for yourself? (Like I tell my students—why create more work for yourself?)
She wants this bad enough, she’ll find a way (which is what I’ve been telling myself in my sitch, no matter what happens).
W,
The problem is you and IHURT are still under the impression that this is a solvable equation. If I do X and Y and I am really nice about Z she will change her mind and not D me.
You are afraid that every time you have to say "NO" it deeper seals your fate. The truth of the matter your fate was sealed at BD. My best guess estimate is only 1 out of 10 change their mind PRIOR to divorce after BD. They think there is something better out there and nothing other then reality is gonna change it.
Do what feels right to you. If you don't want to help don't help. Just be firm on your decision.
I do not want to help and will be firm on that decision no matter what. I was just looking for advice on how to answer the request ahead of time the best way possible. I think Steve’s suggestion seems to fit.
Steve’s sugestion fits but, as LH says, you have to learn to say NO when it applies. Don’t fear to say NO. Stand for yourself. We all have problems with that issue and it’s one of the facts that brings us to the place where we actually are. No fear to say NO.
I'm beginning to wonder if "going dark" is at a detriment to me in my situation. I started reading the Going Dark thread and it states in there that in some instances it doesn't help.
Now, I've only been at it probably 4 days or so, which isn't that long, I know. But, after reading the thread last night I'm a little concerned that my W will think "well, same old story, different verse. He's shutting down and giving me the silent treatment!" A part of me feels like I don't care what she thinks at this point. She told me last week she's moving out and so why do I care what she thinks now?! But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit I still want to R. I wouldn't be here anymore if I didn't, I guess. What I'm trying to say is, if going dark is just going to expedite the process than I'm not sure I want to continue. However, what else can I really do? I surely don't want to be all warm and fuzzy to someone who has told me she doesn't want to live with me and our kids anymore. Do I just give it more time and continue it and let the chips fall where they may? If she thinks its just "me being me, again" then I just have accept it?
Last night, I took a very active role in the kids routine. I had been more active ever since BD but last night I bumped it up a notch. D5 needed to bring something to school that started with the letter S (Kindergarten). D5, D7 and W were in their room trying to find something when I asked D5 if she wanted to take some suckers for the whole class. She got all excited and ran into the kitchen where I was counting out how many she needed to take. Earlier, I had folded some laundry. Up until the last few days, I would fold all the laundry, even Ws. Now, I'm just leaving Ws clothes in the basket for her to deal with. She grabbed the clothes and took them downstairs to where she's been staying. She was down there for a little while and during that time, I got the kids' teeth brushed and started reading some books to D5 and D7. When W came back up, it looked like she had been crying. Water off a duck's back. When we finished reading the books, W came in to tuck the girls in and say prayers. We've all be saying bedtime prayers together for quite a while now. After we got done, D5 asked W, "what's wrong, Mommy?" She was crying again. I left the room to get S3 into his bed. Night ended as it normally has been, with W retreating downstairs and me to the MBR. No communication at all.
It's almost like W is going dark on me too! She has sent me a few texts the past few days during the morning about kid stuff. I reply to the questions but don't reply to anything else. Other than that, she hasn't initiated a F2F conversation with me since I got back from my GAL trip on Sunday. This morning, as she was leaving for her job, I did ask her if her office was open today. She looked at me kind of funny and I told her a lot of the government offices are closed today because of Pres. Bush's funeral. She seemed surprised and said she hadn't heard that it wasn't so they must be. I was pleasant and she seemed pleasant back. Nothing more was said before she left.
Still have no clue what her plans are for moving. Like I said, communication as been very scarce since she told me of her plans a week ago (via text). I'm not bringing it up or asking. I'm doing nothing! Feeling the need to do something in the past obviously wasn't working. Patience is not my thing and that is a massive detriment to me in this type of a situation but I'm trying as hard as I can!
I don't know how I feel about initiating the conversation about her office being open this morning. It goes against my Going Dark technique but I also thought maybe I should initiate a little something just so she didn't think I was reverting back to my old ways. Probably doesn't really matter one way or the other in the long run.
If she would initiate some conversation, I would be pleasant. She just hasn't given me that opportunity yet.
For a second last night, after I went into the bedroom, I kind of felt sorry for her that she was crying. Definitely a sign I'm still too attached. However, it only lasted for a second and I didn't dwell on it any longer. I reminded myself that this is all her doing. She wants to move out. If the crying was because she is planning on moving very soon and that was one of the last times she will get to experience the bedtime routine with them or if it was a little crack starting to show in her facade, I don't know. If I had to guess, it's probably the former. But, I'm done trying to read minds. I just need to be patient, continue to do nothing and see what happens, I suppose. Going Dark is definitely tricky and uncomfortable for me. But, as the thread on it suggests, doing what feels uncomfortable is probably the right thing to do. I'm just not sure, given the history of our M and our poor communication, the both of us, it is beneficial to me.
EVERYONE feels like they are doing it wrong when they go dark. That is completely normal. Stay the course. Focus on yourself.
It's uncomfortable because it's the opposite: the opposite of what your emotions are telling you ("Stay close, I love her"), and the opposite of what your rational mind is telling you to do ("Don't be distant like you used to be").
Both of those things no longer apply after BD. New game, new rules.
It's counterintuitive. Also scary, unpleasant, lonely at first. Then (2 months later, in my case) you start to feel more and more detached. Her tricks and bait and temp checks don't pull you in as much. You're not faced every day with reminders of what she did or is still doing. You feel more confident about your ability to be "fine either way." And she gets some serious time and space, not just the pretend kind.
In the end you get better at GAL and detachment. She gets a chance to miss you. You build your confidence and hope for the future. Everyone wins. For me, it's something that HAD to happen, or else I would have kept on digging the hole.
So no, it won't improve much, at least not overtly, or not in ways that are immediately obvious. But it will help YOU and in the long run, when YOU feel better, that's one more reason why W might look back.
Wanted1, what is the opposite of going dark? Trying to talk to her all the time? How did that tactic work?
Going dark is hard because it is about giving up control. When we initiate conversation we control the conversation. When we try to be around our WAW we control the sitch.
I used this analogy in another thread but what if a friend did or said something that hurt you so you didn't want to be around them anymore. And they immediately responded by trying to force themselves on you. Calling. Texting. showing up at places they know you'll be. How would you feel? Now say instead they just back off and give you time and space? Eventually you might miss them and actually want to be friends again, even if at first you want to "go dark" on them.
It is the same way with a WAW. "I want out. ILYBIANILWY. I need time and space." The opposite of giving them time and space is to smother them. And trust me, even the smallest pursuit and pressure feels like smothering.
So your choices are to hang back and be there if and when she comes to you. Or to force yourself on her. We all question the first one, but it is the only one with an actual chance of success.
I'm beginning to wonder if "going dark" is at a detriment to me in my situation. I started reading the Going Dark thread and it states in there that in some instances it doesn't help.
Believe me, EVERYONE thinks that. "If she complained that I was distant in the M, then isn't going dark 'more of the same?'" Here's the thing, when you go dark you are giving her EXACTLY what she wants. If you were distant in the M then you should have fixed that a long time ago, once she became a WAS she no longer wanted you to fix it, she just wants to be done with you. She wants you out of her life. Going dark in and of itself is not going to bring her back. But it will help you detach and it will give her the time and space she needs to sort through things.
By the way, since you have kids and live together there really is no going "dark" in your situation. You can go "dim" but you need to maintain a certain level of contact for the kids and because you are still under the same roof.
Now, I've only been at it probably 4 days or so, which isn't that long, I know.
It is a drop in the ocean. Most people make the mistake of doing it a few days or week before declaring "it didn't work" and breaking into pursuit mode again. NOTHING works in a few days or weeks, you have many, many months or (more likely) a year or more of this ahead of you.
He's shutting down and giving me the silent treatment!"
Keep in mind that going dim/dark doesn't mean being rude and cold to her. You still want to follow Sandi's rules and be the lighthouse, it just means that you leave her alone.
What I'm trying to say is, if going dark is just going to expedite the process than I'm not sure I want to continue.
Going dim/dark is far more likely to slow down the S and D process than speed it up. When you leave her alone and remove all pressure, she no longer feels the need to push through with D. This is EXACTLY what happened with my ex, once I removed the pressure the D went on hold. I've seen it happen here time and time again. Eventually I was the one that pushed the D through, if I hadn't I don't think she ever would have. I'm not saying we would have reconciled, but I think she would have been content to stay married and live apart indefinitely.
It's almost like W is going dark on me too!
She is, but in her case it's not a "technique", it's because right now she wants nothing to do with you as I mentioned above. Don't sweat it, that's how she feels right now. That may very well change in the future. But for now this is your situation and you've got to deal with it accordingly.
I kind of felt sorry for her that she was crying.
She's not crying because she has any remorse. She's crying because of the "situation" she finds herself in. She's crying because she's hurting and she knows everyone else is too. But make no mistake, she still feels her actions are justified.
Yes, after I posted in here, I read on another thread that going dark is more about helping me detach than it is about getting her to come back.
I'll stay the course of going dark. Part of me feels like it's wrong because its incredibly uncomfortable but like I mentioned, what I've felt was the right thing to do throughout this whole process hasn't ended up being the 'right' thing to do in regard to my goal of R.
You are all right. This is what she wants. I'll give that to her. If she tries to use me going dark as more justification for her decision (always searching for the negative aspects as pieces that fit this puzzle she's trying to put together) than it will truly be hypocritical on her part. I won't point it out to her, but maybe it will be another example of how truly messed up she is and I'll start questioning, even more, whether or not I want to put up with it moving forward.
I'll give that to her. If she tries to use me going dark as more justification for her decision (always searching for the negative aspects as pieces that fit this puzzle she's trying to put together) than it will truly be hypocritical on her part.
Yes, this is correct. You cannot win with her right now, so don't try. If you smother her she'll tell you that is driving her away. If you give her time and space she will use that against you too. This is why you take the focus off of her. And put it on to yourself.
GAL FOR YOU! 180 FOR YOU! DETACH FOR YOU!
If she takes note and it has positive effects on her....great! If not, you won't care because you've detached. You win either way.
DBing is more about saving you than it is the MR. Sometimes (we debated the percentages all the time here!) the MR is saved in the process.
wanted...listen, learn and do as Stander tells you. he gives you no BS, STRONG, painful, true words and it will burn going down and you will want to fight it, but it is what you need to do FOR YOU!
also as my other great mentor on here Accuray told me, "walk a straight line in the opposite direction" from her. your mind will fight you wanting to "action" and not being in control, but the quicker you come to acceptance of some painful realities, the much better off you will be.
oh yeah and for sure listen to Steve as well! Those are my 3 pillars of foundational wisdom on here! :-)
-B
wanted...listen, learn and do as Stander tells you. he gives you no BS, STRONG, painful, true words and it will burn going down and you will want to fight it, but it is what you need to do FOR YOU!
also as my other great mentor on here Accuray told me, "walk a straight line in the opposite direction" from her. your mind will fight you wanting to "action" and not being in control, but the quicker you come to acceptance of some painful realities, the much better off you will be.
oh yeah and for sure listen to Steve as well! Those are my 3 pillars of foundational wisdom on here! :-)
-B
Mine too, man. All 3 of them, as well as LH, are always quick with a response on my thread and it's greatly appreciated. Thank you all for the support. Not just those guys, but from everyone else as well!
I haven't commented much on other people's threads, mainly, because I believe the vets give much better advice than I can. However, I'm going to make it a point to comment in other threads moving forward. More as a show of support than anything else.
I can't express how much appreciation I have for this board and the people on it. Finding it feels like godsend.
Not sure if what took place last night is a good thing, bad thing or essentially neutral.....
My mom text me that she got a call from a friend that told her that her son had heard W was "busted" with her "running partner" and that we were splitting up. Like most rumors, only partially true...lol.
Like an idiot, I broke my going dark plan and forwarded the message onto W. She didn't seem that upset and the conversation, more or less, evolved into us exchanging a couple texts back and forth on how rumors start and are full of half truths and over embellished, etc. They are especially bad in a small town like we are in.
I did decide to use this as an opportunity to maybe show her I've changed in one aspect that I've wanted to do a 180 on for quite a while. Well before BD. Growing up in a small town and now settling back into the same town, I've always been concerned about what people think and say about me, my family, etc. Again, I think this tendency is exacerbated by living in a small town. One of the few disadvantages of small town life is everyone knows everyone and therefore everyone finds out everything about everyone. It's always bothered me that I put so much weight and concern about what other people think. I was just too stupid to realize that I'm the only one that can change that! Since BD, I've read tons of books/information. One being the book, the Subtle Art of Not Giving a F@#$. It surprised me at how well I've 180'd on this mentality because the old me would have spiraled after I got that text from my mom. Last night? I just rolled with it. Didn't really care much about it to be hones that they know W and I are having difficulties, etc and starting to talk about it all.
I explained this in a couple texts to W. I told her that I have always put too much weight on what people think (she knew this and agreed) and that I've been actively trying to rid myself of that characteristic. She responded "that so nice to hear. It's so liberating that you can free yourself of that. I'm happy for you." Maybe my desertion of going dark just for this particular exchange could plant a small seed of doubt in my W's mind that I "can't change." Doubt it, but who knows?! Nothing I'm doing is changing though. I didn't respond to that text and I've continued my going dark plan.
One interesting tidbit though that came from our conversation was that she still hasn't rented an apartment. Remember, last week, she told me she was moving out. Had an apartment rented and was wanting to move a few of the larger things in. Was that a temp check to see how I would react? Because I think I handled it quite well at the time. I started explaining to her the logistics how things would go with the kids. I never once begged her or pleaded with her. I didn't respond angrily or shockingly or anything like that. I simply took the information and started planning for it.
She offered that information during the part of our conversation when we were talking about how rumors start. I had said that maybe people are putting 2 and 2 together with the new job and that you rented an apartment and that's how it all started and ran from there. Her response then was that she had inquired about an apartment but told the lady to keep it strictly confidential and went on to say that she hasn't signed anything and nothing has been rented.
I will not change a thing I'm doing, however! Keep on the going dark path and see where it leads me.
Like an idiot, I broke my going dark plan and forwarded the message onto W.
"Illusion of action" Doing nothing isn't working I need to do something!
I explained this in a couple texts to W. I told her that I have always put too much weight on what people think (she knew this and agreed) and that I've been actively trying to rid myself of that characteristic. She responded "that so nice to hear. It's so liberating that you can free yourself of that. I'm happy for you.
Actions not words Wanted1. This is approval seeking behavior. I've changed I've changed!
" Maybe my desertion of going dark just for this particular exchange could plant a small seed of doubt in my W's mind that I "can't change." Doubt it, but who knows?! Nothing I'm doing is changing though. I didn't respond to that text and I've continued my going dark plan.
I'm gonna go dark for a day until I can't take it any more and then forward her a text and tell her I've changed. Guaranteed it did nothing but show her your'e still attached.
I will not change a thing I'm doing, however! Keep on the going dark path and see where it leads me.
I think you need to look up what going dark means.
My former "friend" keeps texting W. The only "good news" is, it appears my W hasn't been responding as of late. Over the last 3 days, he's sent probably 8 text messages and she has replied twice. Her last response was 2 days ago. He was also the one that reached out initially to her a week ago or so. His W would cut his you know what off if she knew!
I shared this with one of our mutual friends who I've confided in about my situation. He's only one of 2 people I've told what's going on, to the full extent, other than my IC. Last night I told him that our "friend" has been reaching out to my W over the past week. His advice was that I should confront him before it advances any further. I told him that while the thought has crossed my mind numerous times, I don't think that's a good idea at this time.
The one way I've thought about confronting him is if I told him that I know he is contacting her and that it doesn't matter what they are talking about, it is extremely inappropriate, unacceptable and pretty downright disrespectful to me and that if he informs my W that I know they are communicating, I'll let his W know the same. I don't want my W knowing I still have a little recon on what's going on. That would NOT bode well for me. It would only expedite the D process I would imagine and therefore I need to keep it under wraps. For now.
So much for all the remorse and sorrow he told me he had right after their "incident" in May.
I will be confronting him at some point, though. Probably down the road when either we start the process of R or the more likely scenario when I'm D. And if it's the latter, I might just "confront" him by straight up telling his W.
I'm going to lie low in the meantime, though, and just continue to monitor.
I’m beginning to wonder if my W is planning on waiting to move out after the holidays....isn’t that cake eating? Getting to play “family” through the holidays to make her feel better while all along still planning her exit? To be honest, I just want her out now. I can’t continue my journey to detachment with her around. It took everything in my being not to embrace her this morning. The physical attraction I have is still so strong. Probably because I haven’t had any intimidate touching in almost 3 months.
Do I initiate a conversation about what her plan actually is? I know that goes against all the rules but If she’s still gung ho on moving out I’d just as soon she do it now rather than later. I know that given more time there is the slight possibility she changes her mind but I don’t think that’s very likely at this point. A hard dose of reality after she moves might be the only thing that makes her reconsider her decision.
I don’t want to be used for the next 2+ weeks so she can feel good about being around for the holidays as a “family.”
Well you are not going dark neither detaching so if you want her out, why don’t you just ask her? That should stop the cake eating. Is that what you want?
Wanted,
That has got to be rough. I wouldn't want to be spending the holidays together in an in-house separation either. If you really do want her out, why not ask? You need to do what is best for your well-being, regardless of her.
Hang in there. Try to get out and GAL as much as you can.
I think you should ask her to move out. It will help with the detachment and it will also help you to take some of your power back. It will also give her a good dose of reality...dispell the myth that all her problems will magically disappear once she is away from you. Don’t be afraid that it will cause you to lose her, that has already happened. If anything, it will increase the likelihood of her coming back. (((Wanted)))
W,
How about letting the kids enjoy one more Christmas together as a family?
Well, at least most of the replies lined up with what I did. W had asked my plans for today and I said, "not sure." She pressed a little more and I then said I might go to X and start looking at some furniture. She asked what kind of furniture to which I replied for the living room and kids bedrooms. She then came into the MBR to talk.
Just as I suspected, she started out by saying that she didn't want the kids to have any negative feelings or emotions to surround the Xmas season, so she didn't think it was a good idea to make any massive changes (her moving out) that would affect them and possibly cause them to always associate the holiday season with "us and what we are going through."
I told her that I understand her concern, I've decided that I can't continue to play family anymore. Her being around is not allowing me to continue down my path of moving on. I said that I feel as though I've already started down it, but I can't continue this so that I can continue that journey. I reminded her that she and my IC both told me that if something like this is to happen, our kids are at the best age for it to take place (whatever that means) and so while I know it will be hard on them, any time is going to be hard on them. I said that her texts last week informing me of her decision were all I needed to start my process of moving on and I don't feel as though we should wait for the inevitable to happen. I don't think 20 years down the road, my kids are going to say, "Gee, Dad, I wish you could have put up with that awkwardness so we could spend one more holiday together." What I wanted to say is, you are controlling the situation of choosing to leave, but I'm going to control the situation now as to when it's going to happen. You can't have it both ways. It's your decision and now your get to start the "process" of that decision. But I didn't!
She then told me that she didn't want to move out until we had a custody arrangement set and that my suggestion doesn't work for her. I told her I understand she probably needs to talk to her employer about certain things regarding her work but that I'd appreciate a proposal from her within the coming week and I'd review it. Later on, she came to me with a proposal she thought might work which was essentially switching off every other day during the week and each of us taking every other weekend. Basically I'd have them M-W-F and she would have them T-TH and we would split weekends. That sounds like a nightmare to me. No time to get in a routine or really even bond with the kids. I then sent her another suggestion I found online that is 3-3-4-4 which would give the kids the same routine each week and they are at each household on the same days each week except for weekends which alternate.
I don't know guys, while I feel like puking, I also feel some sort of relief. I've always maintained that she needs to experience what this is going to be like before she would ever change her mind, so I guess that's where it's headed. To be honest, I'm not sure my heart is in it anymore if she would change her mind. I feel just "done" right now.
I did tell her I have a session with my IC on Monday so I'll talk to her about the holidays with such a large transition and see if she has any strong opinions one way or the other. However, I followed that up and said that my desire is that she moves out as soon as she is able and the only reason I would consider letting her wait until after the holidays is if it ends up being in the best interests of our kids that we wait based on what my IC says (and you guys I suppose too!). I wanted to stress to her that my desire isn't going to change but if waiting is better for the kids, I suppose I can suffer through it.
She just informed me right now she's going to look at an apartment that she originally inquired about.
W,
How about letting the kids enjoy one more Christmas together as a family?
Because, her decision is destroying my kids' only sense of family. Why not get on with that decision so we can all start the healing process and move forward? What's the point of spending a Christmas together when the inevitable is going to happen a few days afterwards? Maybe I'm being the selfish one now but that's how I feel. I don't think its best for my well being to be a door mat and let her dictate when she's going to leave. She made the decision to leave, now she can honor my request and do it as soon as possible.
Part of the text she sent me just now about going to look at the apartment included this:
Thank you for explaining where you are at. I had no idea so it helps to know what you were thinking. I definitely never intended to be “playing house” while you were waiting for me to leave.
W,
You know I'm not gonna blow sunshine up your ass.
You're being totally selfish. Why do you come to the board when you don't listen to the advice given? You couldn't just be you had to tell her you were going to look at furniture to get a reaction out of her.
Being strong for your kids by detaching and GALing for the next three weeks isn't being a doormat. You have been a doormat but now isn't the time. It's called putting your kids first. You're like a little kid pouting if you don't want to play the game the way I want to play that you need to go home.
I lived with my ex for a year and a half until she got a house because that is what was best for EVERYBODY involved.
You're spinning out of control and will do more damage. Stop and breathe and just let go.
W,
You know I'm not gonna blow sunshine up your ass.
You're being totally selfish. Why do you come to the board when you don't listen to the advice given? You couldn't just be you had to tell her you were going to look at furniture to get a reaction out of her.
Being strong for your kids by detaching and GALing for the next three weeks isn't being a doormat. You have been a doormat but now isn't the time. It's called putting your kids first. You're like a little kid pouting if you don't want to play the game the way I want to play that you need to go home.
I lived with my ex for a year and a half until she got a house because that is what was best for EVERYBODY involved.
You're spinning out of control and will do more damage. Stop and breathe and just let go.
Man, I get it. I truly admire your patience and willingness to do that for that long. I can’t imagine doing it for essentially 6x longer than I’ve been at it.
You’re right. I did tell her about the furniture to see what her response would be. You know what? She came hustling in to talk for the first time ever since BD. I sensed her feeling like she’s losing control. She feels in control because it’s her decision to leave. She feels in control because I told her she has to file, I’m not. And I still won’t. She felt in control by thinking she could decide to move out when it worked best for her. Not anymore. I took my b@lls back by telling her I want her out as soon as possible.
Does that mean she can still dictate when she moves out? Yes. I can’t force her too. But she knows that I want her gone now. I told her I’d talk to my IC on Monday to get her thoughts on making the transition before Christmas. I’m going to honor my word and if she tells me it’s a bad idea then I’ll accept it and I understand that my desires and feelings should take a backseat to what’s best for my kids. They always will.
This whole time I’ve given off the impression to my W that I’d probably welcome her back with open arms. At least my actions portrayed that even though that’s not the case. Not so much in the last 2 weeks or so, but I’m sure she figured if she wanted to come back she would be able to no questions asked. Now she knows that isn’t the case. I took action and reality might be finally hitting her for the first time.
W,
A couple things:
First off she is in control and I get the sense from you that you are a control freak (something for IC). You think that you telling her is gonna give you the control back which of course it is not it will most likely make matters worse.
Second without any doubt your W knows you will take her back with open arms. Unfortunately you have showed her with ACTIONS that she can treat you anyway and you will take her back. It is most likely gonna take years of ACTIONS on your part to convince her otherwise.
You can get the control back down the line when you get to a place where you decide what ACTIONS your wife has to do to earn another chance with you.
In my sitch I did what was best for everyone involved and kept it amicable and I was rewarded with my ex taking less for the equity in the house and less in child support.
Accept this is gonna happen and do what's best for your kids. You will survive this and thrive if you choose.
Update:
Had my IC session this morning. She told me that in her opinion, it would be best to wait until after the holidays to make the transition of my W moving out. So there's that....I want to do what's in the best interest of my kids. That's my #1 priority. They take precedent over my wants and desires, personally, that's for sure. How do I bring this up to my W? I told her I was going to talk about everything with IC today so she knew that was the plan today.
Has anyone else's IC given them a hug after their session?
Mine did today. It wasn't because I was emotional or anything like that. I think she truly understands and empathizes with just how F#$%ed up my situation is and realizes that I'm pretty much getting the shaft. I told her toward the end that I hate the thought of being a victim and have never really had that mentality in anything but I do sort of feel like I'm getting the raw end of the deal in this situation. I've always had pretty much 4 close friends that I would consider my best friends. My W has destroyed 2 of those 4 relationships for me. Now she's wanting to destroy my family to top it all off. I've always had the opinion that I could forgive her for the friendships that have been destroyed because family comes first. Now that it appears she's dead set on torching our family as well, I have a lot of resentment building for her. I was willing to give her not 1, 2 or 3 chances, but 4. She can't even provide me with one second chance to correct the things that she has deemed as my short comings or problems in our M. That stings and for lack of a better term, pisses me off. I will say, though, the resentment and anger I have makes it a hell of a lot easier to detach. And then I can add in basically abandoning our business we built together and leaving me with all of that to contend with, by myself, and the fact that she basically gets to "get away" from everything by working in another town now leaves me to face the community who will eventually know where our situation is headed when she moves out, leaves me to manage the kids with getting them to school and daycare and picking them up and feeding them supper all by myself. Thankfully my parents live here and have been a huge help thus far. I'll always be grateful for the help they've given me so far. I don't know, just feels like I'm the one shoulder deep in crap and she gets to basically walk away and not face any of the music. Pretty similar to after her relationships with my 2 friends did the same. In those instances, I'm the one left getting to answer questions why I don't associate with them anymore, etc.
We all deserve someone who wants to be with us. Who truly loves us for who we are and what we bring to a relationship. I have faith that there is someone out there that will appreciate me. No one is perfect. I know I could have done things better in our M. Do I think that my deficiencies are so egregious that they warrant a D without giving me a chance to become a better version of myself now that I know what they are? Absolutely not. But that is not for me to decide and I have no control over it. I have no doubt that God intends to give me someone great in my life down the road and that she will treat me better than my current W ever did. That thought of that sounds so amazing to me right now and I'm going to put all my trust in Him.
I do think my W's comments about moving out last week were sort of a "bluff" now that I look at it. Last week she said the apartment was going to be ready on Friday when a friend of hers (who is, ironically, going through a D) moved out. This weekend she told me that that apartment wasn't the one she was going to rent because it was only one bedroom. I didn't put 2 and 2 together until this morning on my drive to my IC session. That in addition to her hustling in to talk to me after I mentioned going to look for new furniture. That's the first time she's come to me with any "urgency" to talk about anything throughout this whole ordeal....oh well, don't really care either way anymore.
Another quick questions I thought of....when we were having the conversation on Saturday about me wanting her to move out as soon as she is able and not wait until after the holidays, I told her that's what I needed to continue my path of 'moving on.'
After I said that, her question to me was, "what in your mind does moving on mean, or what do you think moving on looks like for you?" Can't really remember the exact question word for word, but it was something similar to those....Was that a temp check? If so, it was the first one I've gotten throughout this whole mess. FYI, I didn't answer it.
After I said that, her question to me was, "what in your mind does moving on mean, or what do you think moving on looks like for you?"
Give us your answer in a DBing, non-pursing way.
After I said that, her question to me was, "what in your mind does moving on mean, or what do you think moving on looks like for you?"
Give us your answer in a DBing, non-pursing way.
“Moving on for me is to continue to focus on making positive changes in myself and doing what’s best for our kids. I will not shy away from opportunities to enter into a relationship with someone down the road. I have a lot of love left that I want to give to someone deserving of it.”
Less words is always a better choice:
“Moving on for me is making positive changes in myself and doing what’s best for our kids.”
Keeping the trail of the conversation let choose the middle paragraph of your update.
We all deserve someone who wants to be with us. Who truly loves us for who we are and what we bring to a relationship. I have faith that there is someone out there that will appreciate me. No one is perfect. I know I could have done things better in our M. Do I think that my deficiencies are so egregious that they warrant a D without giving me a chance to become a better version of myself now that I know what they are? Absolutely not. But that is not for me to decide and I have no control over it. I have no doubt that God intends to give me someone great in my life down the road and that she will treat me better than my current W ever did. That thought of that sounds so amazing to me right now and I'm going to put all my trust in Him.
So you have a course to set. Be the lighthose. Be the role model parent for your kids.
(((hugs)))
Keeping the trail of the conversation let choose the middle paragraph of your update.
We all deserve someone who wants to be with us. Who truly loves us for who we are and what we bring to a relationship. I have faith that there is someone out there that will appreciate me. No one is perfect. I know I could have done things better in our M. Do I think that my deficiencies are so egregious that they warrant a D without giving me a chance to become a better version of myself now that I know what they are? Absolutely not. But that is not for me to decide and I have no control over it. I have no doubt that God intends to give me someone great in my life down the road and that she will treat me better than my current W ever did. That thought of that sounds so amazing to me right now and I'm going to put all my trust in Him.
So you have a course to set. Be the lighthose. Be the role model parent for your kids.
(((hugs)))
Amen to it all.
(((Hugs to all)))
Old ThreadUpdate in first post.
Like an idiot, I broke my going dark plan and forwarded the message onto W.
"Illusion of action" Doing nothing isn't working I need to do something!
I explained this in a couple texts to W. I told her that I have always put too much weight on what people think (she knew this and agreed) and that I've been actively trying to rid myself of that characteristic. She responded "that so nice to hear. It's so liberating that you can free yourself of that. I'm happy for you.
Actions not words Wanted1. This is approval seeking behavior. I've changed I've changed!
" Maybe my desertion of going dark just for this particular exchange could plant a small seed of doubt in my W's mind that I "can't change." Doubt it, but who knows?! Nothing I'm doing is changing though. I didn't respond to that text and I've continued my going dark plan.
I'm gonna go dark for a day until I can't take it any more and then forward her a text and tell her I've changed. Guaranteed it did nothing but show her your'e still attached.
I will not change a thing I'm doing, however! Keep on the going dark path and see where it leads me.
I think you need to look up what going dark means.
Wanted, please review the above responses from LH again. He is spot-on, I had the exact same thoughts reading your posts. I also agree with his later comment that you seem like a control freak. I can't tell if you always have been, or if it's perhaps a response to the situation you find yourself in (struggling for some semblance of control) but it's something to explore with your IC.
My former "friend" keeps texting W. The only "good news" is, it appears my W hasn't been responding as of late. Over the last 3 days, he's sent probably 8 text messages and she has replied twice. Her last response was 2 days ago.
And you know this how? Stop the snooping.
I shared this with one of our mutual friends who I've confided in about my situation.
Do not talk to mutual friends about your sitch. Only discuss it with friends that have no connection to your W at all, or discuss it here. Anything you say to mutual friends WILL get back to your W and she will see it as you "rallying the troops" against her.
His advice was that I should confront him before it advances any further. I told him that while the thought has crossed my mind numerous times, I don't think that's a good idea at this time.
If anything is going on between them then there's nothing you can do about it (she is leaving after all). If you confront either of them it just makes you look like a controller/ manipulator and will just drive them closer together. Plus they will go deeper undercover with their activities using burner phones and such. Your attitude should be "don't know/ don't care".
You’re right. I did tell her about the furniture to see what her response would be. You know what? She came hustling in to talk for the first time ever since BD. I sensed her feeling like she’s losing control. She feels in control because it’s her decision to leave. She feels in control because I told her she has to file, I’m not. And I still won’t. She felt in control by thinking she could decide to move out when it worked best for her. Not anymore. I took my b@lls back by telling her I want her out as soon as possible.
If she felt you were controlling and manipulating in the M then that's something you should be doing a 180 on. DB'ing is "opening the cage door" but it is not kicking her out of the cage. You should be letting her make these decisions. If she says she's moving out your response and attitude should be "I would rather you stay and work on the M, but if you feel it's best for you to move out then I will not stand in your way. I will support you in whatever decision you make." Are you under some illusion that kicking her out is going to make her respect you more and make her want to come back? It's more likely she'll see it as "more of the same" controlling behavior.
Being the lighthouse and the rock doesn't mean being a jerk. I wish people understood this better. It means being strong, firm, resolute, but doing so in a LOVING manner.
I just keep reading a lot of "I did this, and that showed her who is really boss!!" stuff in your posts. When it comes to BD, S and D, there are no winners, everyone loses. You're not going to "gain the upper hand", because there isn't one. So many LBS's try to "nice" their WAS back and then when that doesn't work they try to "mean" her back. I think that's exactly where you are right now. But you can't "mean" her back either. All you can do is pull back and give her time and space and let HER figure things out and maybe decide to come back.You can't control yourself out of this.