Here's my old thread...
1.5 Months in, and I Don't Know Where Things Stand...Steve, I seriously am looking for guidance here. Maybe I'm just being daft, but if I'm missing something, please help me understand it.
Also, Wyoung just posted a comment in his thread that I feel describes my W perfectly right now, and I guess I'm asking the same question he is:
One thing I realized is that my wife is actually detaching from me. How she behaves is very similar to what detachment prescribes. She only talks to me about practical matters. She rarely initiates contact. She doesn't talk about MR. She is treating me like a friendly cashier.... What's the best response to this? Detach myself?
That's what I was referring to by saying that things weren't working... They started to, but then stopped, and I'm trying to figure out if there's anything more than what I have been doing to course correct. I obviously want to save my MR if possible, but I also know that may not be. That's why I'm asking for help with GAL ideas that fit the confines of my sitch. I know it's unhealthy for me to not GAL and reconnect with myself, and it's also the least likely way to draw my W back if she'll even come back. I went through all of this with my IC on Monday, but he didn't really have anything for me. I'm hoping that maybe some of you will, having gone or are going through the same thing in your sitch.
This isn't a cry to help me save my MR (though that would be nice if it did, obviously), but to help me save myself!
Crouton, we've said it a thousand times, it's in Michele's book, it's in Cadet's first post to you, it's all over these forums- YOU MUST BE PATIENT!!!!!! It is FAR too soon to know if it's "working". It took your W a long time to get to this point and she's not going to reverse course in a few weeks or months. This is a marathon, not a sprint. There is no magic trick to make it all go away and return things to "normal". You've got a long ways to go yet. Work on yourself. Get out and GAL. Become the spouse only a fool would leave. Lose the codependence. Become strong, independent, content, attractive. THEN she may look back. But not until then. Definitely not now when you are still super needy and desperate. Be patient, follow the techniques and trust that they will yield positive results down the road.
I totally hear you, AS, and I know that what you're saying is true... That's why I'm asking for help with GAL ideas, or ways to reconnect with myself that fit the confines of my sitch...
If your W is detaching, more than likely it is because you are pursuing. It is the pursuit-distance dynamic.
All LBSs feel like detachment isn't the answer, when it is. We all struggled with it. Unfortunately most newbies have to learn the hard way.
What did you do to detach? How did you make it happen? I can't figure it out for the life of me...
What did you do to detach? How did you make it happen? I can't figure it out for the life of me...
Well crouton, it is a process. It isn't like you do a, b and c and NOW you are detached.
The process is first to get busy . GAL. Stop being so available and especially having too much time to thwart your efforts. Then you have to limit contact. You do not initiate contact.When she does only respond to direct questions, but with as few words as possible. Answer yes or no question with a yes or no. If you talk to her listen intently, and validate.
Read the detachment thread. Read the validation thread.
Your goal is to get where her words and actions no longer affect you emotionally.
Well crouton, it is a process. It isn't like you do a, b and c and NOW you are detached.
The process is first to get busy . GAL. Stop being so available and especially having too much time to thwart your efforts. Then you have to limit contact. You do not initiate contact.When she does only respond to direct questions, but with as few words as possible. Answer yes or no question with a yes or no. If you talk to her listen intently, and validate.
Read the detachment thread. Read the validation thread.
Your goal is to get where her words and actions no longer affect you emotionally.
See, this is where I'm struggling. I haven't been available and have been GAL as much as I can, but I also am mostly trapped here during the week since I have to take care of my S, which then leads to making dinner and checking schoolwork. In the evenings, assuming she's not coming in at 8:30 or later from working late, we spend maybe an hour or so together as a "family", and usually, that's eating dinner while watching a show. There's very little communication going on. I will admit, when things were going good, I was communicating with her more, but only when she initiated it. The weekends are different in that she usually goes off and does something alone anyway. Part of me doing a 180 is that for the last two years, I was unavailable because I was working two jobs, so I'm trying to at least be freed up on the weekends, even if we're not spending time together... I can still spend time with my S.
Where I'm really confused is letting go emotionally. I can change my action all I want, but emotionally, I'm still invested. I think this is the largest contributing factor to my sitch at the moment. What worked for you guys in combination with GAL, etc., to emotionally detach?
I was just reading burned's original thread, and Amoafwl said something that I really need to latch onto in order to detach emotionally (emphasis mine):
Trust me....you are not going be happily reconciled with everything figured out in one month. Think about where you are right now....you are competing with some other married man for the affections of YOUR WIFE. To me, that isnt someone I would want to be in a relationship with. I want someone that wants me....I dont want someone that could be tempted by some other person wandering in and out of her life.
I do want her because I love her, but I shouldn't want her unless she chooses me.
crouton, we have a saying for newbies struggling with detachment: Fake it until you make it. Overly simplistic? Maybe. But really it is that simple. You have to just go through the motions until the motions go through you.
It is like smiling. Psychology experiments have proven that forcing yourself to smile when you are sad or angry will release serotonin in the brain and actually makes you feel better. The theory is that the muscles you move to smile are the same muscles you move when you are truly happy (a REAL smile) and it tricks the brain into releasing serotonin.
So smile when you are sad! When she says something that hurts, smile. When you are feeling down, smile. But above all let her words and actions roll off your back like water off of a duck.
Thanks, Steve. This is just the hardest thing I've ever been through. On top of possibly losing the love of my life, I'm also staring at a financial mess and possibly my business going under to boot. Stress, on top of stress, on top of stress.
So, let me ask for some advice... since I'm usually the one at home in the evenings with our S during the week and can't go out, in terms of detaching and GAL, do I:
- Make enough dinner for her on nights when she's working late?
- Make myself scarce when she gets home or spend it together as "a family" with our S (who is aware of what's happening, unfortunately)?
- ????????? (is there anything else I can do?)
I know this week when I've made myself scarce, she's taken it as me just being mopey/sulky/angry and then feels like I'm neglecting our S (completely disregarding the fact I've been hanging out with him for a couple of hours already). I know I have to do what's best for me, obviously, but I would still like to maximize my chances with her.
Steve, I saw you mention self differentiation in burned's thread, so I Googled it. I came across this article, and I think I get more what my aim is in detaching. In fact, I think it's exactly what my W was trying to say when she told the MC in that dumpster fire of a session that she didn't know if I could make it on my own, and is possibly one of the reasons she's moving to separate rather than D. In fact, it might even explain why she said that the most likely outcome is D, but still implied that it's possible to R.
Anyway, here's the article:
How To Grow UpThe takeaway for my sitch is that, with my W or someone else, I have to become independent. Multiple times, my W said she felt like my mother. I don't want that. Now, or ever again.
I just had a thought concerning the S once it happens. I was thinking about what I'm going to do financially, and also how this is going to affect our S.
I am wondering if it makes more sense for me to stay in the house we're in now, get a roommate or two (it's a 4 bedroom house), which covers the financial side of things. Also, I'm wondering if I should suggest our S stays with me, let my W move that far out, and she can come visit him/take him on weekends. I think it makes a lot of sense since she always has to work late, has business dinners frequently, and already has to travel some for work, with more frequent trips in the future once their new plant comes online in another state (she'll be the regional customer service manager then).
Any thoughts?
I also meant to add that it would mean less drastic change for our S, since he wouldn't have to switch schools, houses, rooms, routines (for the most part) etc.
So, there's definitely a storm brewing...
I picked up or S last night. Came home, did homework, made dinner, etc.
About 5:30 W sends a text that she's going to be working late, doesn't know exactly when she'll be done, and to do dinner without her if it gets too late. I don't respond since it wasn't a question that needed answering.
8:00 rolls around, and she sends another text saying she's still there. Again, I don't respond.
12:38 a.m., I get the following two texts from her:
[Quote=]Broke down, crying too much to realize that last message didn't send. I'm ok, just freaked out and needed time away. I'll be there tomorrow, I'm calling out
I called her immediately after (I know, pursuit). She answered, and all I did was just ask if she was okay. She said yes, why? I said I just want to be sure you're okay since you said you were freaked out and crying. She said she was, and asked if we could discuss it today. I said that was fine and ended the call. I know I pursued her there, but it's hard to shut off the husband caring about his wife's well-being mentality when she says she's freaked out and crying.
This is extremely out of character for her, especially not coming home to see our S at least this morning. Even further is her calling out of work today, since she takes her job so seriously as a manager, and is clinging to this job as a lifeline in the event we D (her words, not mine).
At this point, I'm expecting anything from her coming home and saying she wants to R, to wants to D, to she had an A last night.
Oops... Those quotes got a little messed up...
I just had a thought concerning the S once it happens. I was thinking about what I'm going to do financially, and also how this is going to affect our S.
I am wondering if it makes more sense for me to stay in the house we're in now, get a roommate or two (it's a 4 bedroom house), which covers the financial side of things. Also, I'm wondering if I should suggest our S stays with me, let my W move that far out, and she can come visit him/take him on weekends. I think it makes a lot of sense since she always has to work late, has business dinners frequently, and already has to travel some for work, with more frequent trips in the future once their new plant comes online in another state (she'll be the regional customer service manager then).
Any thoughts?
I think having strangers in the house, unless you meant roommates you know but even then, is just as drastic as any other option.
Anyway there is plenty of time to work out the details, but I like that your focus on on your S.
So, there's definitely a storm brewing...
I picked up or S last night. Came home, did homework, made dinner, etc.
About 5:30 W sends a text that she's going to be working late, doesn't know exactly when she'll be done, and to do dinner without her if it gets too late. I don't respond since it wasn't a question that needed answering.
8:00 rolls around, and she sends another text saying she's still there. Again, I don't respond.
12:38 a.m., I get the following two texts from her:
[Quote=]I'm ok, probably staying out tonight. But I'm ok.
I called her immediately after (I know, pursuit). She answered, and all I did was just ask if she was okay. She said yes, why? I said I just want to be sure you're okay since you said you were freaked out and crying. She said she was, and asked if we could discuss it today. I said that was fine and ended the call. I know I pursued her there, but it's hard to shut off the husband caring about his wife's well-being mentality when she says she's freaked out and crying.
This is extremely out of character for her, especially not coming home to see our S at least this morning. Even further is her calling out of work today, since she takes her job so seriously as a manager, and is clinging to this job as a lifeline in the event we D (her words, not mine).
At this point, I'm expecting anything from her coming home and saying she wants to R, to wants to D, to she had an A last night.
Yep, I agree. Keep us up-to-date.
Thanks, Steve. This is just the hardest thing I've ever been through. On top of possibly losing the love of my life, I'm also staring at a financial mess and possibly my business going under to boot. Stress, on top of stress, on top of stress.
So, let me ask for some advice... since I'm usually the one at home in the evenings with our S during the week and can't go out, in terms of detaching and GAL, do I:
- Make enough dinner for her on nights when she's working late?
- Make myself scarce when she gets home or spend it together as "a family" with our S (who is aware of what's happening, unfortunately)?
- ????????? (is there anything else I can do?)
I know this week when I've made myself scarce, she's taken it as me just being mopey/sulky/angry and then feels like I'm neglecting our S (completely disregarding the fact I've been hanging out with him for a couple of hours already). I know I have to do what's best for me, obviously, but I would still like to maximize my chances with her.
I might be a little different than most here, but when it comes to dinner I advocate not changing much there. Make the same amount you normally would. The 180 there would be to put the leftovers away, then if she gets home and is hungry let her help herself. (Assuming you tried to wait on her when she got home and serve her the dinner.)
Yes make yourself scarce, but be upbeat, present, and positive when you do interact. (See my previous post on smiling!) More than likely you have been mopey, sulky and angry. Drop that as much as you possibly can. Kill her with kindness, but let her come to you!
The other thing you can do is to be busy when you are scarce. Do you have hobbies? You mentioned your business is there paperwork or other work that can be done in the evenings related to your business? Maybe working a few hours in the evening can save your business? Don't be scarce, but then just sit alone and stew. Keep that mind busy and active. Remember Proverbs 16:27 "Idle hands are the devil’s workshop; idle lips are his mouthpiece."
I feel like if you want to do some GAL-type things, you can. Youre only limited by your imagination.
1) What can you do with your son? Can you make dinner together? How about baking cookies or other treats afterwards? Or work out a schedule to try new foods or new recipes? How about a "movie night" tradition where you make popcorn bowls or ice cream or roast marshmallows on the stove? Are there other things you can do after work but before bed?
2) What is your weekend activity like now? Are there places you can go with your son? Are there times where you can go out and do things without your son while your wife watches him?
3) How about after your son goes to sleep? If your W is home at 830/9, can you plan to go out to listen to music or go to some other gathering? Are there nights W comes home early where you can get out? Is this feasible one night a week?
I think youre limited only by your imagination. In my separation, I have my kids every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night. Yep - every single weekend night, I have them. So that means I go to game night on Monday and trivia on Tuesday. And when I have the kids, we do fun things on the weekends to make it special for them. There is stuff out there - you just have to make it happen!
Also, there are babysitters. Sometimes I wonder if the board even knows that! LOL Lots of excuses about kids related to GAL on this board.
Yes but I think that when you are faced with only seeing your kids half the time you usually would, when you do have them it is sacred time and I’d rather not palm them off! Maybe I’m just too raw and new to this at the moment.
Well, she just got home (it's 2:30 p.m.). She's taking a shower and changing clothes, and then I guess we'll see where this goes.
Yes but I think that when you are faced with only seeing your kids half the time you usually would, when you do have them it is sacred time and I’d rather not palm them off! Maybe I’m just too raw and new to this at the moment.
I am not saying don't spend time with your kids, but don't let the WAW/WW dictate your social life to you. "I'm going out tonight so you can't!" Bologna! I am going out to, ring the sitter. (I tried to use the UK vernacular there!)
I called her immediately after (I know, pursuit).
I'm just going to take a moment here and say that sometimes WAS's have VERY serious mental issues behind their behavior and personally I think that something like this is not pursuit, it's genuine concern for her well-being. Now you do have to be careful that it's not just some ploy to get attention that you're catering to, but if you genuinely think she's suicidal or such then don't sit back. There was a guy on here many years ago whose WAS left him and continued to spin out of control, a classic case of her leaving because she thought he was the problem only to find that SHE was the problem. He came back after being gone a while and reported that she had killed herself. There was another man here whose wife called and ranted and raved that she was going to kill herself and she was going to come over to his house. He felt it was an attention grab but he did EXACTLY the right thing, called the police and they met her in front of his house and hospitalized her. What I'm saying is don't try to fix her yourself, but don't ignore warning signs and be ready to call for help if you think it's needed.
She answered, and all I did was just ask if she was okay. She said yes, why?
That's an odd response from her.
At this point, I'm expecting anything from her coming home and saying she wants to R, to wants to D, to she had an A last night.
You missed the most likely outcome of all- she won't say a word and will act like it never happened. WAS's do stuff like this ALL THE TIME- cry, say they want to talk and then just seemingly forget about it. Don't ask her if she wants to talk about "last night", if she brings it up then it's fine to listen and validate but don't be surprised if she says nothing.
Well, all she really said was that all of this got to her, she was angry and upset, and that this is hard, and she didn't want to have our S see her like that (even though he was in bed already). She thanked me for taking care of things, and said she felt bad about putting us in that position, and that she didn't want to do it again. I simply said you're welcome, and that I understood. I didn't even question where she was.
We did talk about R a little when she said she didn't want us to be enemies, and she felt like that's where we've been this week. I told her that I didn't want to be her enemy, I never have and never will. I told her I'm still fighting for our marriage, and being her enemy won't help with that. I also told her I'd realized a bit more about where she is coming from in all of this, that we have to be independent and not rely on each other for happiness, and that she doesn't need to feel like she's my mother. She also said she doesn't know if she can trust who I am, and I suggested starting small with something to rebuild her trust in me. She didn't answer, but said she'd think on it since she was feeling bad (she ate something that didn't agree with her, especially since she's had her gall bladder removed).
I was able to touch her without her recoiling. Just small stuff like a squeeze of her hand, rubbing her shoulder, etc. while she was in pain from her stomach and even somewhat after the pain had subsided. She also sat on the couch with me during dinner, which is something she's completely avoided this week. Perhaps it was me getting her medicine, etc. that helped her see I'm not her enemy that caused this. I know it doesn't mean anything, really, but it's at least giving me a little hope since it's better than what has been going on for this week. I know I'm not supposed to focus on her too much, but regardless, I still want my W. As such, I'm still looking for signs of hope, but also trying to detach in case she decides she doesn't want me.
I also saw that she's still job hunting, which her job now has been a major point of contention between us. I know it doesn't mean anything, but still find it odd.
S and I are still going to my friend's house to help with his project today. I ended up getting in touch with an old friend through another friend, and he has invited us over to his house tonight, so depending on when we finish the project, I may be taking him up on it. Plus, his S and mine can hang out together (they're about a year apart).
The enemies thing is manipulation. As you detach she is feeling a loss of control and she doesn't like it. That's why when you started discussing R she fell back to the "I dont trust you stance. " Classic pursuit distance dynamic.
Keep doing what you've been doing.
Hey Crouton,
Go back into your last post and think about the actions and words that worked and what didn't work.
When you made a suggestion of starting small, she had no response. Maybe she will eventually, but for now, that doesn't seem to have worked.
Saying you're fighting for the marriage and don't want to be enemies let's her know she still has you right where she wants you. And by that I mean you are the backup plan.
Well, this morning was a bit different. After I made my earlier post, somehow we ended up on a discussion about R (I can't even really remember how). I definitely pulled a 180, and told her that I didn't want to be with someone who didn't want me, told her that if we were separating I wanted Something to stay here since it's less upheaval for him and her schedule is so jacked up. I then told her that I didn't want to separate, but I understood why she would feel like she needed to, so if that's really what she wanted, to go ahead and pack her stuff and leave today. I told her I was done not being a man, that I am a strong and independent person, and I don't need her validation. I want her in my life to enhance my happiness, not be there source of it, nor do I want to be the source of hers. I told her in no uncertain terms that I'd be fine without her, even though I'd miss her. I also showed more empathy to her about understanding how my actions had affected her, so much so that she got pretty weepy as I expressed what I was going to do to correct my behavior, for her or for someone else. It all seemed to get through a bit... She's still here for now, at least. I think it really took her by surprise since it's not been like me to tell her where the door is in the past. She said she's still unsure what she wants to do, but I feel like it maybe broke through the wall a bit.
Maybe. But now you have to show het through action too. So be hot happy no matter what she says or does. Show her that you mean it and that they weren't just words.
Oh, for sure. S and I went and did the project with my friend and are home now. She's getting ready to go meet a mutual friend for a girl's night. I've been pleasant with her since I got here, even joked a bit and got her to smile, and have made it known that S and I are doing pizza and movies/video games tonight... I even told her to have fun while she was out. One thing she's brought up is feeling guilty for doing something for herself, feeling like she had to keep me happy all the time... I'm showing her that I'm strong and confident enough in my own skin to handle her going out without me.
Well, it turned out that the girls night was a spend the night deal. NBD to me, and I know how naive this may sound, but I really do believe that she was spending the night with our mutual friend. When she told S and me that before she left last night, I told her to have fun and we'd see her today.
I woke up to a text coming through from her this morning. She sent a link to a family friendly improv acting show, followed with a message that read "we should take S to see this". I know it probably doesn't mean anything, but I found it a little odd that she said "we" should, or really that she even shared it at all. I mean, why wouldn't she just file it away in her list of things to do with S and just exclude me altogether if she wants out so bad? Again, I'm not putting much stock into it, just found it odd.
Last night was pretty great with S. We hung out and had a good time. I have to say, I felt oddly at peace pretty much all day yesterday after doing the 180 I did with her yesterday morning. I've had this strange feeling like I'm being an adult while she's being a child, and she's slowly starting to realize that and wants to start being an adult again. Like she is maybe coming out of the fog a bit. I have absolutely no basis for this feeling, however, but I just can't shake it.
I did have one bout of an anxiety attack last night. S and I were watching a movie, and one character in particular was feeling underappreciated by her husband (Rosita in the movie "Sing" for those who have seen it). It instantly made me think of W, and my past behavior, and I felt guilty and sorry for her all in the same moment. I really wished W was here right then so I could relate those feelings to her and let her know how much of an a** I felt like, and how much I truly get things from her perspective. I know it probably wouldn't have helped me in any way to do so, but it's how I felt.
I still feel mostly at peace this morning, but I can feel a bit of anxiety trying to creep back in. It's not so much fear of what will happen to me if she decides to leave, but more that I'll miss her if she does, and it'll hurt. I just have to keep reminding myself that it will be what it is, and I can't change that.
I've had this strange feeling like I'm being an adult while she's being a child, and she's slowly starting to realize that and wants to start being an adult again. Like she is maybe coming out of the fog a bit.
You want this to be true. Be careful to not let yourself believe it. Actions will prove this, whichever way it goes.
Did you ever find out if she's having/had an affair?
Yeah, I definitely want it to be true. That, however, doesn't mean I have a rational basis to believe it's true, though. It's just a gut feeling, and it's going to take more than that for me to believe she's ready for R.
As for an affair, no, nothing concrete. That said, I'm 80/20% split on not having one/having one. I can certainly see where it's possible, but my gut says she's telling the truth. I'm not completely dismissing the possibility, though. I feel like she would have thrown it in my face by now, considering sooner if the other hurtful things she's said while angry (confessed to buying a dildo and using it rather than sleeping with be more often, as an example).
Today was pretty good. W, S and I hung out and just watched movies all day while relaxing. She got home around 11:30 this morning, and brought us some donuts from a fancy bakery. At one point, S wanted a friend to come over and play Minecraft. W and I were watching a movie on the Xbox, but she was willing to go into the Master Bedroom and finish watching it alone with me while the boys played. Not a huge step, but more than she's been willing to do with me for a week. Also, all day during the movies, we'd laugh at something in the movie, and both of us kept looking at the other while laughing. Not something we normally do while watching movies together, or not in a long time, anyway.
She was distant, but pleasant all day. However, the later it got, the more distant she became.
My attitude all day was still pretty relaxed. I feel like I hit a bit of a detachment breakthrough yesterday when I told her to just leave if that's what she wanted. I hope she won't, but I can't keep doing the same song and dance I have been.
All good news crouton. Just don't pressure her when she becomes distant or as you know she will keep distancing herself. Sounds like some positive things, so make a note of what works.
Holy s***, I actually got an unsolicited hug this morning (not that I've been soliciting them anyway)! I was about to take S out to put him in the bus for school, and W gave him a hug and kiss, turned to me while we were telling each other to have a good day, and even though her hands were full (she hates hugging while her hands are full), she leaned in and gave me a pretty decent hug (10 seconds or so).
I'm not planning a vow renewal over this, obviously, but dang it felt good to embrace my W!!
I understand that's only a drop in the bucket (which may or may not have a hole in it), but I'll celebrate the small successes!
Take the time to celebrate the small wins but don't read anything into it. Have no future expectations- remember believe in nothing they say and only half of what they do. Blessings!
So you say that you have no time to GAL about you can spend the day watching movies together while S is home....? She stayed out all night without any warning doing who knows what and she is “rewarded” for that kind of behavior with you spending the day together as “buddies”.
Do you see that you called the day “good” simply because she was willing to spend some of her time with you?
I hear what you're saying, Amoafwl,about GAL. I meant more during the week than on the weekends as far as not having time. This weekend, I actually did GAL Saturday, and was also doing things around here yesterday apart from watching movies (laundry, cleaning, etc.). The main thing was hanging out with my S, who was picking the movies. In fact, we had just started the first one when W got home, so it was more of a "her joining us" thing than anything else... we were going to do it regardless. When S started the third movie, about 45 minutes in, he got bored and wanted to hang with a friend across the street. She asked me if I wanted to finish the movie in the Master Bedroom, not the other way around.
Also, I wasn't rewarding her for what happened Thursday. I told her pretty plainly that she could leave Saturday morning, something I've not ever done in the past, and is out of character for me. Her response to that the rest of the day and yesterday is why I was willing to hang out as "buddies".
The day was good only because there was no tension and anxiety on my end... I was in a good place mentally and emotionally. That's what I meant.
As far as GAL and being independent, it's something I know I have to do and stick with, regardless of what happens with my sitch. One thing she's expressed in all of this is that she wants me to have that so she doesn't feel responsible for my identity. And, further, she's right... she shouldn't, nor should I be for hers. Interdependence, not co-dependence is what's healthy in a relationship. But, even if she walks away, I still have to have that for my own health.
So, a funny thing just happened...
Apparently, the real estate agent we'd been working with sent a text to us both. The house we were going to put an offer in on a couple of weeks ago had gone under contract the day we went a looked at it. It's now back on the market.
I didn't see the text, but it came in around 12:30 this afternoon. at 1:45, W sends me a text that says "I think we should do it."
Having no clue what she meant, I asked her "do what?"
She replies with "I think we should buy the house in ************, sell ours, I wanna go back to school and finish my degree, I wanna have chickens and a shop and a garden, and I think we should do it together."
After all that, I just called her. I asked her what house she was referring to, since I still hadn't seen the message from the realtor. When she told about it, and that the house was back on the market, she went on to say that the last few days, she's been thinking about what she wants, and how she wants her life to be, and said that she wants for us to do it. I asked her if that means she also wants to do "us", to which she said that if she was asking, then obviously she was sure. She was at work and said we'd talk more later, but asked if I would call the realtor and have her submit the offer.
My mind is still reeling...
Interesting..........
So you should read my threads. I was in a very similar position as you. THough at the time my W wanted us to buy the new house we were much further along in our R. Still much of the things to think about from other posters were good. I will find it and provide a link.
Yeah... I'm curious if maybe where we were a couple of weeks ago and where she's indicating things are now is really how she feels, and maybe she just had a bit of doubt these last couple??? I have no idea...
Honestly, there's no real benefit to having me come along if she plans to leave me. My income doesn't count toward the mortgage loan (self employed and it's my first year of being so, so there are no tax records to base my income off of for the income verification). Unless she's just resigning herself to having a roommate, which I've pretty frankly told her I didn't want, and she said she didn't either.
I know your sitch was pretty similar, Steve. And you're right, you guys were much further along in R. I mean, yesterday, I was celebrating an unsolicited hug (I got another last night before she went to bed, and it felt like she wanted to say or do more, but I cut it off). That being said, this is the first time she's clearly and succinctly said she wants us.
Yeah... I'm curious if maybe where we were a couple of weeks ago and where she's indicating things are now is really how she feels, and maybe she just had a bit of doubt these last couple??? I have no idea...
Honestly, there's no real benefit to having me come along if she plans to leave me. My income doesn't count toward the mortgage loan (self employed and it's my first year of being so, so there are no tax records to base my income off of for the income verification). Unless she's just resigning herself to having a roommate, which I've pretty frankly told her I didn't want, and she said she didn't either.
I know your sitch was pretty similar, Steve. And you're right, you guys were much further along in R. I mean, yesterday, I was celebrating an unsolicited hug (I got another last night before she went to bed, and it felt like she wanted to say or do more, but I cut it off). That being said, this is the first time she's clearly and succinctly said she wants us.
Crouton, I am not going to lie, this is a very good sign. There are all kinds of things that make WASs wake up from their fog, and there is no doubt that a new start in a new house can be one of them. But as I said, my exploring it and getting feedback in the threads I linked were all good things to think on and consider. Have a conversations with her tonight about what R means. That it means she has work to do. That you both need to get into MC. That you will require a commitment before biting this off.
Our MC was awesome. She pointed out that the stress of a move, and of buying a house...and selling a house can play havoc on a solid MR, let alone one that was strained. Both my W and I took her advice and went into with a good attitude. That we were going to work together on the stresses, and not let the stresses tear us apart. Find a good MC to navigate these waters!
Yeah, I'm reading through them now... there is definitely a lot of solid advice there.
I know that we'll have to have a very serious discussion about our R. In no uncertain terms, I plan to address each of the things I know I need to keep doing, start doing, etc., to make sure her needs are met, and I also plan on laying out what I need from her as well. One of those things for me is either MC, a MC retreat, or at the very least, a workbook of some sort... something to get us turned back towards each other. I'm hoping for MC, but I also understand she may feel hesitant. We'll see what happens.
For now, I'm not saying that I 100% trust this. She's been all over the board before during this, and I don't have a reason to believe for sure this time is different. That said, I'm not trying to be so cautious that I blow it if she is genuine.
Hi Crouton. I don't have much to add, but I've been following your story and am happy to hear things seem to be going well.
Thanks, Terrapin... I'm not sure how well I trust what's happening (I mean, we were still doing an in house separation as of last night), so we'll see what happens.
Well, that has got to be one of the deepest, most connected, healing conversations we've ever had.
We've both agreed to take things slow as far as our interaction and affection for a bit, and I'm typing this from the guest room... She's not quite ready to start sleeping in the same bed again.
We're moving forward on the new house, assuming our offer is accepted. We discussed some common short and long term goals, and agreed on plans of action for them. We also discussed how we got here, how to avoid it going forward, and what our mindset was during a lot of this (well, this was mainly her... I've been pretty open about mine).
She's really serious about this, guys. She's logically listed every reason to make our MR work, and emotionally she said her Aunt made a comment which made my W realize that she does indeed still love me. She said she was essentially going in the direction of completely rebuilding her life and realized that if she's going to do that, why not rebuild it into exactly what she wants, including me v2.0 (new and improved).
We also discussed both of us GAL going forward to avoid being codependent on each other, and to help us not feel guilty about spending time with others instead of each other.
I'm still in total shock...
Crouton all of this is great. But I do suggest proceeding with caution.
What Steve said. She can change her mind again, and I'm not saying she will. But have no expectations. Stay focused on small progress.
My WW told me this twice last month, and she's back at the OM's house.
I'm really rooting for you though and praying for the best for your sitch.
For sure, guys. Like I said, we're definitely going to take things very slow. The exception being the house, obviously. Honestly, I really don't care about that. I'll be fine no matter what. I know that sounds a little bit like throwing caution to the wind, but something I realized when telling her she could leave the other day is that anything can be rebuilt, no matter how bad circumstances get. Obviously, you want them not to get bad, but it's not the end of the world if they do.
Really, we're going to have to learn to trust one another again. She's got to trust this new behavior in me is real, and I've got to trust she's committed. The only way that those things happen is with time, work and patience. I'm not going to be the farm on this, but yesterday two things happened which make me really think we're headed in the right direction, at least enough for me to give her the opportunity to show me she's committed. The first is that it was the first time in 3 months that she actually gave me a definitive yes or no about wanting our MR. The second is that it was the first time in 3 months that she brought up our MR and dove deep into the nitty gritty unprompted. Really, the first 45 minutes were her going through everything while I listened and validated. When I finally started to speak, she listened and validated, too. We both thanked the other for doing so at the end.
Does any of this mean that I'm running full speed ahead? No, I already got burned a couple of weeks ago doing that when it seemed like she had come out of the fog, and I told her as much last night. She said she understood, and felt the same way, but on a much broader scale since I had previously made temporary changes to my behavior when she would express being unhappy in our MR. The point is that we're both in the same place, but taking it slow to feel things out.
She did express a bit of surprise at one point. I divulged a little info from my IC sessions, one thing being that my C was a little surprised that I knew more about the Gottman Method of MC than he does. I brought it up in the context of what I have been learning these last 3 months about having a healthy relationship. At first, she didn't say much about it, but her eyebrows definitely raised way, way up when I told her about his comment. After a few minutes, she finally said that it makes sense that I'd learn so much in a short period of time. She knows that once my mind locks on to something, I learn all I can about it, almost to the point of obsession. I'm a very, very, very details oriented person (one thing that also works against me, especially trying to analyze her behavior these last 3 months). In fact, I'll even bet you guys can probably see that based on my writing here on the board (just go look at my first post if you need a reminder).
Anyway, caution is definitely warranted right now, but I think I'll have to find a healthy balance of optimism to go with it. Otherwise, I could smother the spark that's seemingly ignited right now, and that's not good either. Actually, that's a pretty good metaphor for piecing/reconstruction, at least how I see it... It's very much like building a fire. DBing is like using a flint and steel to start a fire. If you don't do it properly, you get no spark and no ember in your tinder (and sometimes, the tinder is too wet to begin with). If you do get that ember to smoldering, dumping a ton of fuel onto it will smother it. You have to gently ignite it into a flame. There's no guarantee the flame won't go out because you didn't feed and nurture it properly, or that you have enough dry fuel to begin with. But, with time, patience, and care, if you have enough dry fuel, you can build it into a fire that's nice and toasty.
but something I realized when telling her she could leave the other day is that anything can be rebuilt, no matter how bad circumstances get. Obviously, you want them not to get bad, but it's not the end of the world if they do.
This is awesome commentary. It reminds me of the end of the film The Money Pit. (If you haven't seen it, Tom Hanks and Shelley Long buy a house that needs to be completely refurbed. The refurb almost breaks them financially, and definitely destroys their relationship.) At the end the head project manager makes the point that it wasn't an easy remodel, but the foundation was solid. And as long as the foundation is solid the rest can be rebuilt.
Obviously he was talking as much about their R than he was the house.
Also, I am living proof, while we are still fairly new to our new house and anything is still possible, that it can be successful. My W and I are closer now than we have been in 19 1/2 years of marriage. So you can make it work. Like I said, keep your R above the buying/selling/moving fray.
Well, things have been crazy the last couple of weeks.
We made it all the way to the inspection of the new house. W was on a business trip in Philly the day it happened. The next day, she backs out.
Later that night, she calls me at 11:00 letting me know she was back from dinner, and was going to her room to crash (we had been up until 1:30 a.m. that morning, so I know she was tired). At almost 2:00 a.m., my phone rings. It's her calling. Apparently, she butt dialed me. As I'm trying to get her attention, I hear a TV in the background, and then her saying something about it taking all week to set something up. I then hear a man speaking to her (as in, not on the TV). Fuming, I say her name louder, a which point the phone hangs up. I call back and immediately ask WTH is going on, and who's in her room with her. She proceeds to tell me it is her boss, and that he's not going to the meeting she had set up for him in the morning. I ask her if she's having an affair, to which she responds that she doesn't know what to say, until she finally says she doesn't want to have the conversation right then. I told her we either have it right then, or I would file for divorce and full custody in the morning, as well as let her HR rep know what's going on. She yells at me that she doesn't owe me anything and hangs up.
I called the hotel, and spoke to a lady working the front desk. After getting some info from her about the room (actually, two rooms rented in W's name), I called W back. She proceeds to tell me that her boss called her and woke her up, had her meet him in the lobby, and the TV I was hearing was in the lobby. He wasn't going to the meeting because he was sick as a dog, and had been the whole trip. She offers to send me a copy of the email he sent to the person they were meeting with, as well as a receipt for some Nyquil she bought him. She swears up and down that nothing was going on.
I called the hotel back the next day and verified that there was indeed a TV in the lobby. I also spoke to the same lady from the night before. She confirmed that there was no one in the lobby right before I called, and in fact her and her security guard were eating dinner when I called, and were sitting in front of the TV W said I heard.
W gets home that night at 11:30 (late flight), and is immediately ill towards me. When I ask what's wrong she says I threatened to take her kid and her livelihood. I proceeded to ask her to explain why she was lying. She admits to it, admits it was wrong, and that she only did it because I would have totally flown off the handle. She then proceeds to let me look through her phone at the email that was sent, as well as through her text messages. I found some pretty inappropriate ones between her and her boss. Him referencing his "big D" and her saying he looked hot in the security line at the airport... stuff like that.
We had at it until 2:30 in the morning. I can't even remember all the details, but somehow ended up in a good place at the end. We slept in the master bedroom together, snuggled up. The next day, she stayed home from work. We talked, and talked, and talked. By the end of it, things were good. I confronted her some more about what I'd seen, and she explained why she did what she did, and again said that there was nothing going on.
As of now, I mostly believe her, but I'm still looking for evidence to be sure. I know that doesn't seem logical, but I've never seen my W cry the way she did when I confronted her after she got home. Also, I know she was on her period when she left, and I've seen the blood stains in her underwear where she was throwing them away when she got back. That doesn't mean nothing happened, as there are other things you can do sexually, but it's part of the reason I'm inclined to believe her. I also know how she is about getting sleep, and I don't see us being up so late the night before, and then her being up at 2:00 a.m the following night. Again, that might seem thin, but her words and actions these last few days make me inclined to believe her.
Currently, she's actually seeking my affection, we're flirting, we've had sex every day except yesterday (even this morning), and she's applying for other jobs like crazy. Some she's shown me, some I've been snooping after the other day and seen the emails about. I know I shouldn't be snooping, but after that incident, I think it's justified. We're making plans to move close to her aunt, and she's making plans to go back to school part time. She actually gave me a big hug and kiss yesterday morning before leaving to go to work and told me that she was going to miss me that day.
IMO, I think if there was an A, it's over. I can't prove it happened beyond a shadow of a doubt, but definitely still have my suspicions. Like I've said before, I can forgive an A since I understand the part I played in pushing her towards it, but she is responsible for her actions, and it will be a while before my trust is rebuilt, whether she admits to one/I catch her, or she doesn't.
I've also seen texts to other people where she was talking about how she felt like things between us were really good, that we've hit a new level, and she just hopes that they last.
I guess time will tell....
Crouton!!!!!
I know you've looked at my sitch. I don't know if it was helpful. This is literally the first post I've made that wasn't about ME. I want to help you not be me.
What I'm going to say may be entirely wrong but here it is. You are exactly where I was at the end of May. You're going through what I've learned is called "hysterical bonding." Some people call it "false reconciliation." Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just telling you what I went through. It was the best few weeks of my life and I thought we had it made.
My sitch is slightly worse than yours. I'm envious, but that doesn't help. About 2 weeks into our "trial" (separate houses) separation, around the beginning of July, I got really accusatory toward W about whether her A had resumed. I had convinced myself that that was the reason she wanted the S.
I made it become true. She lost her mind, told me "You can't control me!" and within a week she was back with him. Just for the one time, but that was the beginning of the end.
Please, if only to make me happy, do EVERYTHING you can to just let it be. The thought of W with someone else horrifies me, but it's not NEARLY as bad as the thought that she will forever be with anyone except me. Don't be the one to make your fear a reality.
Please, drop the snooping. You're only hurting yourself. Ask me if I'll ever forget the picture in my mind of her car parked next to his at the motel. Ask me if I wish "Share location" was never an option on our phones. Ask me where I'd be right now if I had just swallowed my pride and just let it be. You can't stop her from doing what she wants to do, but you can definitely make it worth her while by pushing. Do whatever it takes -- phone a friend, stick some thumbtacks in a rubber band and put it around your wrist and squeeze really hard when you just want to scream. But don't show her that it bothers you. At least, if your sitch is anything like mine, and if you're anything like me, you may well regret it.
If I had read DR and had been on these forums at the end of June, I might still be exactly where I am. But I wouldn't be blaming myself quite so much. You're here and it's not too late. Muster up every little bit of strength you have in you and remind yourself that SHE is more important than HIM.
Focus on her. If she has/had an A, you can't change it. You'll get over that, believe me. It'll be a lot harder getting over losing her.
She offers to send me a copy of the email he sent to the person they were meeting with, as well as a receipt for some Nyquil she bought him. She swears up and down that nothing was going on.
She then proceeds to let me look through her phone at the email that was sent, as well as through her text messages. I found some pretty inappropriate ones between her and her boss. Him referencing his "big D" and her saying he looked hot in the security line at the airport... stuff like that.
I cant be the first to say that this makes absolutely no sense. No person in a management position
needs their subordinate to get them NyQuil at 2 AM. I cant understand any professional relationship where there is a need to be together in a lobby of a hotel or in a hotel room at that type of hour. Whether she is lying or not, there are some incredibly clear boundary issues. Add that to the texts which are clearly inappropriate and I cant understand how any of this is "OK" with you.
We had at it until 2:30 in the morning. I can't even remember all the details, but somehow ended up in a good place at the end. We slept in the master bedroom together, snuggled up. The next day, she stayed home from work. We talked, and talked, and talked. By the end of it, things were good. I confronted her some more about what I'd seen, and she explained why she did what she did, and again said that there was nothing going on.
It SOUNDS to me like she got caught and is trying to "throw you off the scent." If her boss was with her at 2 AM, and there wasnt nothing going on, why lie about it?.If MY boss woke me up at that hour, I'd be PISSED and be complaining to my partner about the ridiculousness of needing to buy someone NyQuil at that time.
I can forgive an A since I understand the part I played in pushing her towards it, but she is responsible for her actions, and it will be a while before my trust is rebuilt, whether she admits to one/I catch her, or she doesn't.
What are YOUR boundaries? You say "she is responsible for her actions", but what does that mean, exactly, to you? How is she taking responsibility?
It SOUNDS to me like she got caught and is trying to "throw you off the scent."
THIS
Hi crouton. Just remember "believe nothing that they say..."
In your first post you told us she stayed in a hotel instead of her grandmas...You know, It´s a similar MO...
I´m sorry to tell you this man. I´m a WH, I used to have those behaviors...I´m sorry man. That´s a red light for me...
Just get some boundaries, as Amoafwl says. Get your respect back.
Well, update time...
Things are going fantastic! We're moving to Southern California on 12/26, W quit her job and is now working in a complete remote position for another company (actually the company she went to in Philly). Over the last 3 months, I've done some snooping and not seen any evidence of an A, and in particular almost no contact with her now former boss. What little there was was all very innocuous. It bugs me that she had it in her archived messages, but that could also be a sign that she's either trying to protect me from accidentally seeing it, or that she did have an A and is putting it behind her. Her actions, OTOH, have been super consistent the last three months... she can't seem to get enough of me, physically and emotionally.
There are still days I struggle mentally with everything that has happened. I actually had to take one of the "I'm stressing out too bad and need immediate relief" pills a couple of times, though it's been less than 5 times over the last 3 months. The new job will require some travel, and it's closely linked with her old job (though, from what she told me, her old boss doesn't want her working on their account because it could be seen as unethical), so I have a slight bit of nervousness about that.
That being said, she's told me and many other people in my presence that things are better now than they ever have been. I'm certainly not one to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Wow, I'm glad to hear that. Are you guys in MC regularly?
What pills are you taking?
Nope, no counseling.
As for the meds, I'm on Zoloft daily and they also prescribed Hydroxyzine for those freak out moments. It's actually an antihistamine, but apparently works well for treating anxiety, too. Oddly enough, it's also what the vet prescribed our dog, at the same dosage, when he had an ear infection...
