Help...Confused Newbie Pt6! - DivorceBusting.com

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Maika...in reply to your previous post...yeah I know it's not all my fault. In fact the end of our MR/possible D is ENTIRELY W's decision. I mean I can't stop being divorced if she simply quits...as you say and we all know it takes two.

For her to just quit...best I can imagine there must be someone else or W is mental. No sane person just quits a marriage ESP with children. But h**l maybe the world is a much crazier sad place than I pretend to believe.

Again a prior post from long ago sums up where I'm at:

Before you tell me that he wouldn't have done anything to change, you just mentioned that he's acting like "casanova and will do anything to save the marriage". Fear of loss will inspire anyone to change. The real issue is communication and HONESTY, you weren't honest with your husband about your needs and didn't really want to give him the a chance at helping fulfill those needs - it's not because he didn't want to or couldn't. You couldn't be honest with him and more importantly yourself about you wanted and you feel now that you are entitled to affairs because of this.

Men are not mind readers and neither are women because if women were, they could read men's minds and basically find out that men are clueless when it comes to this.

THAT is my sitch. I could not flippin' read her mind, but for D**N sure if I had known what truly she was needing I would have moved heaven and earth to get it for her. To not tell me and her just walk and not want to even give me a single chance...hateful.

Dude I'm hanging in there, but D**N I mean I loved her...would have done anything to please her, but...We got comfortable, had a young child and focused on her. It's totally unfair BUT where I find myself is the truth. There's a song lyric that says "I guess it's cuz the truth is the hardest thing I've ever faced, because you can't change the truth in the slightest way...cuz I've tried". That is me now...there is absolutely nothing I can do for my sitch. All I can do is take the hit, learn from it and see if I even want to try again.

B - I totally know what you're going through. I mean that. Like you, I was more than willing to pull up my sleeves and put in the work, but she wasn't. That loss of control was mind bending. I would've done what was needed to improve and rebuild our marriage. And it would've been something stronger and more beautiful. Never was even given a chance.

And yeh, you're right about communication and honesty. I know I failed in that regard as well with my W and I wanted to figure it out. But when the other person is unwilling, what can you do?

I absolutely felt like a failure and also a piece of trash that could be just set aside like that. Like a decade of us being together and having two kids in the process and having gone through challenges and joy didn't mean anything. For me it was like - shouldn't all of that count for something to get a second chance? You know the answer to that.

The mind-reading $hit is just appalling. I really resent that like I should've just known. If her needs and concerns weren't communicated to me, how the hell is anyone supposed to know. Personally, I think it's a cop out and a cowardly excuse to rationalize their behavior and deciding to step outside the MR.

So as you said - you gotta take the hit and learn from it and move on. I know I had my faults, but I didn't deserve this. And my kids didn't deserve it either. It's all unfair, but now I know that self-reliance comes first and trust with others will come second.

Thank you Maika for your reply. Yes, not getting that ONE chance is the most painful part of my sitch. I know that I have grown/learned a great deal, W says she has as well, but instead of W being willing for us to create some stronger and better than what we had before, she simply says "No thanks".

Communication/honesty well I feel like if I had anything that seriously bothered me I would have told her and felt comfortable to do so, BUT I'm a very laid back, go with the flow type. W is much more passionate, has anxiety and is very plan/detail oriented. Reality is that clearly she was unhappy, but beyond saying unhappy she could/would not bluntly/blatantly tell me what it was that she needed. And as we've discussed, if she could not, it's not like I could read her mind and determine what she needed.

And yes I know the answer to that. For us 5+ years, a precious D...for her to just not even try...I can't understand that. A marriage is always going to be hard work, I will remain until D fully committed to W, but she seems quite clear and content to just walk away.

Yes I feel the same way. For sure I had my faults, I can see so much that both of us could have done to improve our MR. The change occurred with the birth of our D. Children really impact the dynamic of the MR. But the thing is, this is completely common! The internet is littered with tons of stories exactly as ours. No, I didn't deserve this and for sure my D did not. Our marriage does not deserve this! I honestly am jealous of those LBHs who have sitchs in which the W is at least willing to try. It is an utterly helpless/hopeless/emotionally abusive feeling to have a W who simply quits/gives up and walks away.

Someday, somehow I will recover from this terrible period of my life. Perhaps with the benefit of time and hindsight I will be able to ascertain why I had to suffer incredibly throughout this year. There MUST be more happiness ahead in my future, but currently I'm in a dark and terrible place.

ballast, the thing I keep thinking as I read people sitches is that we never know the true extent to our WWs' activities. Look at how they will deny things even in the face of evidence! Obviously if they deny things that voraciously, then they aren't going to volunteer things we have no clue about.

So the LBS has to be okay knowing that they only know part of what really happened in their WAS's EA or PA. If they can't live with that then they need to move on. That struck me as I read your previous post.

Yeah Steve very true. For me, besides W leaving and unhappy and not wanting to save our R, I know nothing else. Gut and guess tells me there's someone else.

I would say the most painful part of my feelings is not a possible EA/PA, but rather myself and the woman I loved took a vow, made a commitment to each other, forsaking all others, no matter what life may bring to each other. And she quit, walked, disregarded that vow/commitment. Trust me I GET that happens ALL.THE.TIME. Just did not think that it would happen to me a 2nd time especially with a woman who I REALLY thought loved me and was committed to me. That is seems like women just are so ready to walk at the first signs of no butterflies or the realization that "Hey this M stuff is going to be hard and not always fun" really depresses me.

Yep, it happens all the time. I went on a date Friday with a woman who left her husband 5 years ago. They tried MC but in the end she knew it wasn't going to work and she couldn't explain why (she initiated the D and they had small kids at the time). Something happened after they had kids. She said she has dated guys (1 for a year), has not introduced anyone to their children, they still live close by to each other and are best friends. For whatever reason though it appears she still has no interest in being with him.

Maybe she married him for the financial security and knew he would be a good, stable man to have children with but after the children were born and of a certain age she no longer needed him and moved on to what she thinks are greener pastures.

TBH I don't think there is any way an LBS could ever predict or know something like this would ever occur. You can get into the whole Alpha Male/Beta Male discussion but I know some Alpha males that have been on the short end of the stick as well. Beta males that have been married for 30 plus years and real shitty husbands that are still married who have no business being married.

That's why I just keep reminding myself that this is more about them and what they are going through.

Last time I went to talk with my IC she pretty much agreed with me that long term, even short term marriages with the current generation are likely a thing of the past. Women simply DO NOT need men anymore, getting a divorce is easy and social media provides constant sources of easy, potential greener grass. It is much easier for women to live in the arrangement as you explain with the woman you went on a date with.

And I completely agree with you on an LBS being able to predict/know this would ever occur. That scares the bejesus out of me when I think of my future. Ladies just bottle it up, reach a point of no return and then poof that's it, gone. And the husband has ZERO chance at that point. I'm sure Alpha/Beta matters not, that type of activity hits the male population equally I'd imagine.

I worry very much that I'm coming off very down on women, marriage, etc. That is not my intent at all although it has been my experience. I truly do love women, being married/committed to one woman with a family, happiness, etc. I just really worry for the future of all of us based on what I constantly read about here and the new sitchs saying the same thing just keep coming and coming. It's very sad all of the hurt that I see SO SO many wives, husbands and children going through.

I echo what J said. I know some beta males who are still in the marriages and I would call their relationships as illusions. Both are sticking it out for convenience sake and there is no real meaningful relationship. For some people, that works.

And yeh, this is so so so much about them than the LBS.

Lest I seem one sided in this...Former GF from way back in HS. Sweet girl, dedicated mother of 5!, husband bailed on her just shy of 25 years, out running around now dating all over like he's in his 20's. Man had it what many of us crave and yet he walked away from it. Now no one knows what actually went on in that MR but...I am very sorry for ALL genders whom endure pain like this no matter the sitch. I pray God could/would somehow cause all of us to place renewed appreciation/respect and value on the institution of marriage. I worry for us all if we reach a point where men/women meet, have children but then mostly live separately and apart. Maybe I'm naive or irrational, but what kind of message does that send to little ones like my D when they get to be my age.

The institution of MR is on the decline but I will not take anything for granted any more.
There are no guarantees in this world and if I get married again I will constantly be keeping watch.
I won't be so naive the next time around.

I pray God could/would somehow cause all of us to place renewed appreciation/respect and value on the institution of marriage. I worry for us all if we reach a point where men/women meet, have children but then mostly live separately and apart. Maybe I'm naive or irrational, but what kind of message does that send to little ones like my D when they get to be my age.
Hey B, I feel the same way. Marriages are disposable now. the minute conflict arises- time to pack it in and move on. The thing that bothers me also is that Divorce is a big business. The only people who win in Divorce are lawyers. Look how many are available. This is why we are doomed to go to he77 in a hand basket. I still firmly believe that we must set a precedent and show OUR children to stand for what is right. To stand for permanent unification of families. We all become stronger when the family unit stays in tact. Stay strong- Blessings!

Hey ballast,

You seem to be firmly in an "anger" cycle of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance). I just point that out because it is good to be aware of what's driving how you're feeling. These stages are non-linear and you can bounce back and forth between them many times. It is healthy and necessary so by all means embrace it. Nothing wrong with being angry.

Originally Posted By: ballast

Fear of loss will inspire anyone to change. The real issue is communication and HONESTY, you weren't honest with your husband about your needs and didn't really want to give him the a chance at helping fulfill those needs - it's not because he didn't want to or couldn't. You couldn't be honest with him and more importantly yourself about you wanted and you feel now that you are entitled to affairs because of this.

I don't know what this is from, but I see you resenting your wife for not being honest with you about how she was feeling before she dropped the bomb.

I just want you to know that its not that easy. If you have an issue or complaint with your spouse, you can voice that complaint in a number of ways. When they hear a complaint, they can either fully embrace it and resolve it, partially embrace it and resolve it, or not embrace it or resolve it at all.

Often in marriage your spouse will complain about something and you'll misunderstand the severity. You might think it's a "2" in terms of importance but they may feel it's an "8" and don't do a good job of articulating that, or maybe your filter prevents you from agreeing that its a 8 versus a 2. In any case, this happens every day, all the time.

Once the wheels fall off the bus, the LBS often looks back on this and says "if only W had told me it as an 8 versus a 2, I would have taken action on that!" In reality, they only bear half the responsibility for that, but even if you had responded to it and addressed it, chances are something else would have risen up to take its place and you'd still be in the same scenario.

Some complaints are just completely irrational and can't be responded to -- i.e. "you should make a billion dollars a year so I can buy what I want" is likely something that no one would be able to respond to and resolve. Same thing with "you should have a higher sex drive". How does anyone take action on that? All they can do is fake it unless there's a medical issue.

So let's put marital complaints into three categories:

1) Complaints your spouse can (and should) resolve

2) Complaints that aren't valid or reasonable, or are more about you than about them. Those really shouldn't be resolved by them.

3) Complaints that your spouse is not capable of resolving

Of these three categories of complaints, I believe its really the second and third that lead to relationships falling apart, but number one gets the majority of the blame -- its a red herring.

If you get frustrated because you don't think your spouse is smart enough, motivated enough, has a high enough sex drive, makes enough money etc. those are complaints that you KNOW your spouse simply lacks the capacity to address.

If you have that kind of complaint, do you voice it? What would be the point? It would just come across as hurtful and they're not going to be able to fix it.

Couple that with the fact that the person knew these things about you when they got together with you, and they probably feel guilty about asking you to change anything because they knew what they were getting in to.

The point is, the issues that lead to the downfall of a relationship often aren't as easy as "you should have told me". That's a surface issue and a red herring.

The challenge for you is to embrace that you may never know exactly what happened with W. She may never know what happened either, and you need to accept that on face value. Some things can't be explained.

You're right that this can create tremendous anxiety because you can't guarantee that it won't happen again.

So what can you do? First, figure out how to be okay not being in a relationship. If you do that, you don't *need* the relationship, you're there because you want to be. Secondly, figure out how to "bring it" and be a partner only a fool would leave. If you do that, and you know you're bringing it, then if they leave you it is their loss and you know that, and don't have any regrets.

You can get there, and you'll be fine.

Acc

acc, great post.

Another thing is the cumulative effect of several 2s. Your W voices a complaint and you both read it properly as a 2. So you don't take action. Time goes by and she tries another complaint on another 2. 4 2s in, you now haven't taken action on 4 2s, which with compounding interest add up to a 9! Danger!

I can look back at my sitch and realize how several 1s and 2s added up to huge problems. Could she have been more assertive about her feelings? Of course. But then I could have been more assertive about addressing even things I felt were small.

This goes along with your statement: "The point is, the issues that lead to the downfall of a relationship often aren't as easy as "you should have told me". That's a surface issue and a red herring."

And it is also probably not true either. We all say it, but once we are in comfort land most of us can't be bothered with complaints. We have an attitude of "if you loved me you wouldn't be complaining". The wake up call is sometimes the realization that maybe they don't love us.

Thanks Steve!

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Another thing is the cumulative effect of several 2s. Your W voices a complaint and you both read it properly as a 2. So you don't take action. Time goes by and she tries another complaint on another 2. 4 2s in, you now haven't taken action on 4 2s, which with compounding interest add up to a 9! Danger!

If it is really a 2 it shouldn't stack up like that. Obviously we're simplifying a very complicated dynamic. It comes down to whether or not each person's needs are met.

If you're generally satisfied in your relationship and you voice a "2" and the other person doesn't respond, you'll probably blow it off and forget about it.

If you're generally dissatisfied with the relationship and you voice a "2" and the other person doesn't respond, you're going to pile that resentment on top of the latent resentment you're already carrying.

You are entirely correct that if you keep stacking up those 1's and 2's, eventually you'll hit the straw that broke the camel's back and you'll get a bomb day.

Really though, those string of 2's were just stoking a fire that was caused by something else.

"Having your needs met" is also a tricky business. Just like complaints, there are things your spouse *should* do for you, and there are things you *should* be able to do for yourself.

If you take something you should be able to do for yourself, like have healthy self-esteem, and assign your partner responsibility for that, it causes things to start to break down.

i.e. "I need you to tell me you love me and buy me a gift every day so I feel good about myself" may be an unspoken expectation of a low self-esteem spouse.

If the partner fails to deliver, they'll get increasingly resentful and blame the fact that they don't feel good about themselves on their spouse for not meeting their needs.

If an impartial judge was involved, they might be able to right away point out that those expectations are unreasonable, and really the person needs to do the work to feel good about themselves without a daily "I love you" and a gift.

Sadly such judges are in short supply and generally unwelcome. We can do what we can to provide for our spouses' needs, but we need to stop short of becoming emotional caretakers, or codependent crutches in order to maintain healthy boundaries.

Unfortunately this dynamic tends to play out unspoken, and with low self-awareness, which is why we find ourselves here, and why marriage is so difficult!

The majority of the battle is getting emotionally healthy ourselves, and that is firmly within our control.

Acc

Acc...as always I appreciate your comments and thoughts on my sitch. When you say I'm in the anger cycle of grief I've thought long and hard about that and whether you were right or not. What came to mind immediately was "that's not the right adjective for me", but then again neither are anything of the other stages necessarily right either. I think disillusioned, frustrated and occasionally sad along with amazed is a more accurate mix of where I'm at.

As for my W and her being honest with me before she left, at least at this time from working with the IC, I think I've come to see that W could never actually have told me what she needed. I don't think she has the ability to be vulnerable and really express what she was feeling. Of course then I feel complicit as well in that perhaps she was in her way trying to tell me, but it wasn't in the way that I was able to understand her. Disappointed in both of us that if we were at an impasse in being able to really communicate with each other that we didn't seek help to address that, although her complete loathing and disdain for professional help as a waste of money would have likely prevented us going anyway.

W has few likes and many dislikes, is passionate and sees things only in black and white. I'm a mostly positive guy, more go with the flow and allow for multiple shades of gray. We are opposites, but as happens many times we were able to balance/compliment each other. She is always right, never apologizes and never displays affection such as even a hug to family members. Next week she will be off on another week long trip with one of her GFs. This will be the 3rd consecutive month of her having done so and she already has another one planned for next month. To anyone who hears this, that sounds not normal. Best I can tell it's her constant need to escape reality. Women even without small children are amazed she can so frequently leave our D with me and go off as she does.

Honestly I kinda don't care to think anymore. Every one of my friends/family when they hear about her trips, hating being a mom and the imaginary woman I'm "seeing" they are like "consider this a blessing that you are getting away from her" and in truth they are correct. The fight inside me currently is perhaps more about "what did I see in this woman" more so than what's left to fight for AND good Lord if I could screw up picking this one, what's the chance I don't screw up again? W was NOT like this prior to D's arrival and IC has told me that there was no way I could have foreseen the changes in my W that came about as a result of D. Here again though as an LBH considering the prospect of another go in the future, if I could not have foreseen this one, again what's the chance it happens again?

I go on, I loved her and still want to, but as they say not my circus, not my monkeys.

Meh...feeling like a ping pong ball these days. At least I have D with me and that is so good for the soul. We have the BEST time together. D asks for "both of us" (mommy/daddy)...

Ok ACC I guess you were right after all. W is soon off on her trip, happy to have dropped me like so much trash. I am angry to have been discarded without any feeling from her of letting me go. One day I will put this all behind me.

ballast, hang in there. Emotional ups and downs, uncertainty about the future, trying to reconcile who she was with who she's become, we've all been there.

I would advise you to take your focus off of her, and keep it squarely on you. This is where the ups and downs come from. Those that struggle the most with the roller-coaster are those that stay to focused on the WAS and what they are doing, saying, not doing, not saying, etc.

Detachment requires GAL. How are your GAL activities going? What did you do this week in regards to GAL?

Steve...thank you for your words of support and encouragement! Yes as much as I have experienced changes in mood from her, clearly I'm doing the same within myself. I feel as if I'm in a constant struggle to keep depression from consuming me. I definitely "bounce around" when it comes to emotions.

I'm sure her taking off on a trip has been the primary reason for my heightened focus on her. When W is not traveling, my anxiety is basically non-existent. My mind translates that she is off having this fantastic, happy time while I'm left behind. Trips were something that we both looked forward to with shared excitement and so now it's a trigger for showing how apart we are now. Toying with the idea of taking a trip myself, but the idea of going alone seems very strange to me. I think what I need to remind myself is that she is always going to present herself as super happy to me, when in fact I have no idea how/what she really feels AND given how she is doing these every month which everyone I know says is not normal, they could be more a reflection of her trying to run away from responsibility in her than anything else. Anyway I don't know where she's headed and I haven't asked and don't plan to.

GAL wise so this week while W is away I have my D which means outside of work I always keep busy with her out doing fun things together. Since she's not 4 yet, obviously these are not adult activities, BUT they ARE the most rewarding!

Next week I'll be in the gym as normal, I read, have started to watch movies, pursue my photo hobby and am working on learning a new programming language...oh and I'm starting to enjoy going out once or twice for dinner. That's during the week, after work type stuff. I find myself fine when alone during those times and not lonely so I take that as a good thing. Weekend wise next week I'm hoping to meet up with an old work friend for drinks, dinner and to hang out.

Getting to a point of apathy regarding W will be blessed upon me one day. I just have to keep having faith I'll get there.

Hey b, what I found worked for me was to set up some sort of routine with some open time to try or do new things. I find if I can keep my mind and body active it has less chance to wonder what W is up to. Practice self compassion where you focus on all aspects of your health- Spiritually, Mentally, Intellectually and Physically. Last piece - I think you said you were a believer- Strengthen your walk with God. Put your trust in God. With God ALL things are possible. When things look troubled I simply remember Romans 8:31 "If God is for us, who can be against us?"
- Blessings!

Thank you Wfl for your comments. Work actually allows me too much time to think on my sitch AND frankly coming to this site many times ramps up my anxiety even when I take comfort in the words and shared experiences of those here.

I have not intentionally thought to work on myself in the way you describe but I am doing so.

W is on a trip and seemingly happy as can be while I the left behind will go see my L for a D that I do not want. Our places should be reversed. I know that God is with me and will never forsake me but right now I struggle mightily. Perhaps I am mistaken in my stinky thinking on how W is doing anyway.

One day I will clear through this depression and life will be good again. It seems like a terrible long road from now though. I truly feel all hope is lost and the thought of ever wanting to start over I simply CAN NOT see that after the decision W has made.

Originally Posted by ballast

W has few likes and many dislikes, is passionate and sees things only in black and white...She is always right, never apologizes and never displays affection such as even a hug to family members.

Originally Posted by ballast

W is...seemingly happy as can be

Is the description in the first quote consistent with someone who is "happy as can be?"

You said that W was not like this prior to having your daughter. Prior to having your daughter what was she like? What changed and what did not?

Acc

Met with IC today. I'm struggling. IC told me in all of her years of counseling couples she had never had a couple in which the two of them had not once spoken on the phone or in person regarding their separation/R.

As I left IC said to me "I think your W's best shot at being happy in an R was with you". On the one hand W projected all of her anger/resentment onto me so I embody that and yet now I was W's best chance at a happy marriage?

I'm sorry I'm here looking for support. I'm trying my best to stop thinking of W and detach from her, but yet she is off on a trip and I'm just spinning my tires so to speak. IC said my W desperately needs the trips as that is the only way she can shake free of any and all responsibility and run away from her life. Sorry folks it's like I married the most emotionally locked up woman whom I LOVE, I'm the "cancer" that she has extracted from her life as the IC puts it, but the real cancer continues within her as she is unhappy with herself oh AND I'm the best chance she has at being happy in an MR. So I'm her cancer and she's losing her "savior" at the same time.

I need to get my head sorted out. I'm like 4 months after we split and I am better, but God when will I finally and truly clear this woman from my head!??! To love her as I do, have her just walk away, not talk to me at all...IC says its clear she has not emotionally detached from me...I'm sorry to be rambling...just want this to end...

ACC...no that is NOT consistent with someone happy as can be.

Most of what I described of W was consistent pre and post D arrival, BUT she/we had no responsibility. We could come home, have dinner if we wanted or go out and could take off and travel whenever, wherever. We made great money, lived in a modest condo...we had total flexibility and beyond work no responsibility. Once W was pregnant that whole world came to a stop, no going out, no travel, weight gain, body image, pregnancy was tough physically. Fun, carefree was replaced with body image issues, responsibility, no fun (we did travel more as time went post-D). Basically W lost being the carefree women who could do whatever she/we wanted.

Journaling a bit...W is still off on a vacation while I'm having a great long time of having our D. Getting ready to head out in fact for some more fun with her and one of her aunts.

The strangeness of my continuing to live the life of a responsible parent, happy father while W is off doing who knows what with who knows who. As I've said many times I have no idea of an OM/EA/PA but W just has to be WW. I can't wrap my head around her believing what she is doing is normal, BUT from what I know of WW mindset it seems par for the course.

Last couple of days I've been thinking about my last posts, how one sided against the W they sound. I've been spending alot of time thinking of what I did/didn't do in the MR. Now perhaps that's because since W won't really open up, I'm maybe trying to get closure by taking all the blame, BUT I am trying to be at least honest on what I perceive as my parts in her unhappiness might have been. I was reading the 5 love languages. I would say I'm mostly Words of Affirmation/Physical Touch. I'm guessing that W might be Acts of Service and Quality Time. I got to feeling like I totally failed her. My acts of service were always on my timeline and quality time...again after our D went down at night, I very rarely went up to be with her, BUT I thought I was giving her time to herself. Then I got spinning on when did I last kiss/hug her. I stopped myself quickly on that though as I always wanted to kiss her each morning before work, but she constantly seemed to be bothered by my doing so, hugging...honestly can't recall. Thing is I could beat myself up, but W NEVER tried to kiss me or hug me nor did she ever try to come and spend quality time with me. This exercise taught me that yes I could have done things better, I would love to do so now with the benefit of hindsight but I guess that ship has sailed. Thing is it takes TWO to make this MR work and W never sought to kiss me, hug me or spend quality time with me. For all of the failures I feel in myself, W never did any of those things towards me either.

Why did that happen? Hate to say it but birth of our D. We simply placed our MR on the back burner and did not communicate with each other exactly what each of us needed. I feel VERY VERY sad to say that. I especially beat myself up because I always loved her...why did I not keep it up to the degree that I needed to do in order for us to make our marriage work? I would have done ANYTHING for our marriage, family, her happiness! Again I know...I couldn't have done it all by myself. Sorry if this is a ramble...time to head out with D.

Prayers to all of you!

Hey b, we have all contributed to the downfall of our M. Some more than others. Good thing here is that you have come to a realization of what those are and now can actively work on being better should the opportunity arise. With any relationship after the honeymoon phase things become less intense and we often fall into habitual routine. Often times we take each other for granted. I am guilty of this also. The purpose of this self reflection is to find the kinks in the armor. Repair them - then polish it up turning that weakness into strength ready for battle. No need to beat yourself up over this but show some self compassion by understanding it then positively moving forward. I hope this helps. Blessings on your journey!

Ballast,

It's great that you are enjoying your vacation. As much as possible you should concentrate on that, and on your D. Those are indelible memories that you are making. Cherish them.

In terms of making mistakes in the MR, LoneWolf is spot on. None of us are perfect. It is good to reflect on what you could do better in any future relationship with WW or anyone else. That sort of honest reflection is the only path to growth. It is easier for most people to simply pass off the blame (like our spouses) to the other party. But how do you then learn how not to repeat the same mistakes? I became highly codependent and lost my sense of self, and ceased to be the person my W fell in love with. Right now I am trying to figure out the steps to avoid that in the future. The 5 love languages is a good book to read as well.

That said, you cannot beat yourself up for those mistakes. We are all human and therefore imperfect. Moreover, we are not the ones who ended the relationship rather than communicating and making honest attempts to rectify the problems. Self-compassion is a hugely important part of self-esteem. Don't hold yourself to a standard of perfection, you wouldn't hold anyone else to that standard, certainly not someone you love. Treat yourself with the same compassionate love that you would someone dear to your heart.

Good to hear from you again.

Wlf and Davide thank you for your comments and support. Self compassion is definitely something I'm struggling with. I know that I'm a good man and never intentionally did anything to harm my MR or my W. The most difficult part for me is that my W will not communicate nor even want to try and save our relationship. I mean if you "played the whole game" and it fails then at least you tried everything. For W to "walk off the field" in the middle of the 2nd quarter and say she's done...very painful.

Today is the last day for W's trip. I've prayed to God nightly to let me sleep throughout. If I wake up 2am my mind panic attacks me on is she safe, is she with someone, all that stuff. It is very surreal to be home with D, putting her to sleep, doing all of the wonderful father duties while her mother is who knows where, drinking at a bar with other men hitting on her? That behavior is NOT normal. How does it seem that all of my other friends on FB have happy families with wives who want to be mothers, yet my W takes off every month for a week to get away from all responsibility? It's telling to me that instead of a picture of D or W with D, W's profile pic is her laying out at a pool bar. It seems so MLC like...I just don't get it.

The last day of having my D is always SO bittersweet. Throughout the day I constantly tell her I love her, kiss her, admire her. Life is so precious and feeling like I'll miss half of her life in the future...there is no great pain/mental torment I can think of. For those of you who have done this for much longer than myself...PLEASE tell me this gets easier! Have a fun filled last day planned with her. You are all in my prayers. I pray God brings comfort and a positive week to each of you!

Splitting time with kids gets easier in the sense that you accept the routine. I dont think I will fully be ok with losing half of my time with them. But I make my time with them glorious and when they are away, I do self care and make sure I am working to be the best person I can be for them and every other relationship in my life. It is grossly unfair but you can do something about it - love the time with them and dont waste a second.

Originally Posted by ballast

It is very surreal to be home with D, putting her to sleep, doing all of the wonderful father duties while her mother is who knows where, drinking at a bar with other men hitting on her? That behavior is NOT normal.

OK picture yourself as being divorced and single again. This woman who cruises bars getting drunk and sleezing around with strange men, does that sound like someone you would be interested in an R with? I think this is perhaps one of the hardest concepts for people here to wrap their minds around- your old W is gone and this is your W now. Is it even someone you want to be married to or have anything to do with beyond being co-parents? Something to contemplate.

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How does it seem that all of my other friends on FB have happy families

I promise you, they don't. People like to paint pretty pictures of their crap lives on FB to make others jealous of them. It's the strangest thing, people will bitch and complain to you in person about their SO but then on FB they paint a very rosy picture. That's social media for you.

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For those of you who have done this for much longer than myself...PLEASE tell me this gets easier!

Absolutely. You really will get to the point where you just won't care where your W is and what she is doing and who she is with because she will cease to be a factor in your life. You will be too busy being awesome to worry about her. And if she ends up being too stupid and/ or stubborn to change her mind about you then you will have another SO in your life that'll make you wonder why you thought you needed W back so bad.

So, this person is not your W. It's like an alien took over her body and has hijacked it for a while. Don't try to reason or communicate with the alien. You are from different planets and do not speak the same language. And you're right, her behavior does seem very MLC. You have to keep living your best life, and let her spiral out of control. You can only control you.

As far as comparing and FB and all that, get the hell off social media. 1) it's bad for our brains even when life isn't a mess and has been shown to lead to depression and anxiety, and 2) you will eat yourself alive with comparisons when you ARE feeling a mess. I got off FB for a while when this all started and it was one of the best things I could do. Unless you're using it as a way to connect with others so you can GAL, get off of it.

Stander as always your comments always make me think and view my sitch from different perspectives that I don't normally see. W sleazing around I think is a bit extreme as when she is not on a trip I don't "believe" she is being that way and even when W takes trips, no way to know what she is really doing. It seems that W is trying to roll back the clock in her life at the very least and for sure get away from all responsibility.

May thank you for replying to my sitch! There are many things that make my W seem like she is MLC'ing but I have no reason to doubt she takes wonderful care of our D when she has her and W is from her emails full speed ahead on D filing. From both you and Stander, she is definitely not the woman I married and yes definitely seems like an alien has hijacked her.

Just put my D down for the night. Tomorrow after daycare W will be back and get her. I could not love anyone/anything more than I do my D! She is the absolute light of my life! When I said does it get any easier, I was really referring to exchanging custody of a child instead of getting over a W/H. I will take the great advice of Maika earlier and when I do not have D with me, I'll work hard on myself to keep growing as a better father, son, brother and friend. It is INSANE to me how W will not even so much as consider trying to save our marriage for our D's sake. To just destroy the family of a 3yo without exhausting all attempts to save the MR...but in cases of abuse...I simply can't accept that.

So this morning I'm feeling like our marriage failing was all my fault.

W has expressed to me how resentment/anger had built up inside her and I feel like that was on me to fix/address all those things that had built up inside of her although it sounds like it was a long list. To be honest I don't understand resentment all that well. I mean the way I did some things or did not do other things I know bothered her, but I guess I never knew to the degree that they did. Thing is I don't feel like I ever had anything about her that I resented or if I did I was somehow able to process them through without losing my feelings of love and respect for her.

I just feel like there is SO MUCH I failed at. W has said I didn't listen, said she told me over and over, said she was frustrated that we didn't seem to be on the same wavelength. Now my IC has said a long time ago that W took all of her resentment/anger/etc and projected it on to me. I loved my W and would have done anything to make her happy. I feel like I was just deaf or didn't understand what really bothered her. As I've been through before I don't believe she was vulnerable to really sharing with me her feelings by saying "This thing that you do really hurt me". I wonder why if W felt we weren't hearing each other, then why didn't we seek outside help to figure that out.

Of course then the other thing is...as I'm told her believe nothing that she says and 50% of what she does. Could all of this be W just painting our sitch in absolute worst case narratives? Maybe I truly do deserved to be D'd a 2nd time. But if she did not handle/process her resentment effectively with me, I mean no one is perfect so won't this just recur for her if she moves on to someone else? If I'm this terrible/oblivious to this type of stuff in relationships...really perhaps it's better if I stop trying to find a true love.

Really would love comments on this topic. I feel like such a complete mess and failure. It's like W had a million and one complaints about me, some I could have addressed, but others I couldn't. Only got 2 hours sleep last night. Feeling like giving W the D she wants would be an act of compassion on my part for all of the failures/unhappiness I've supposedly caused her.

Originally Posted by ballast

Could all of this be W just painting our sitch in absolute worst case narratives?

Absolutely. WWs are notorious at putting all the blame for the failed marriage on the LBH.

Look at it this way, no matter how bad the marriage was, what is worse. What she is accusing you of supposedly doing, or going out and sleeping with someone else? See the dichotomy? "You were a bad husband so I jumped in the sack with someone else!" Its laughable.

So yes, WWs try to spin everything to be your fault. It was your fault she couldn't keep her legs closed. It was your fault that she found another man attractive and acted on her impulses. It was your fault that After committing to someone for life, for better or for worse, she decided that worse gave her an excuse to break that commitment.

ballast, we all struggle with the feelings of it being our fault. Even if the WAS doesn't put all the blame on us, we do. It is a trap though. We like to take blame because then we have the potential to fix it. The thought of it being our fault is better than the thought it being out of our control. Most of us like to be in control, and we'll even take the blame if that means we keep control. ballast, your actions may have contributed to your sitch, HOWEVER, if she was going to do this then she probably would have found another reason eventually. (The big one that most fall back to is that "we should never have gotten married" or "I am not sure I ever really loved you".)

In my sitch my W used my behavior as an excuse for an EA in 2005. Then again at the end of last year. Admittedly, I was a bad H. But the fact that this is revisited tells me that she has a predisposition for this once a MR "settles in". No one knows the future. I could be exemplary for the next 10 years and still have her step out of the marriage. Who knows? This is a potential I need to face up to and decide how to proceed from this point forward.

This is what you need to face. Maybe it is a type you are drawn to? Maybe it is bad luck on your part? Maybe some of it was in your control. But the point that you can't get past is: anything short of extreme mental and emotional and verbal abuse, and of course any form of physical abuse, there is never an excuse to step outside of a marital commitment that was taken for life.

Steve...as always buddy thank you for your reply! All of what you say I understand but as has always been the case I simply DO NOT know if W actually has had an EA/PA ever. I mean my gut says probably, but frustratingly I have never definitely been able to find out. All of her words seem to suggest that is the case as well, but again no proof.

Originally Posted by ballast

Steve...as always buddy thank you for your reply! All of what you say I understand but as has always been the case I simply DO NOT know if W actually has had an EA/PA ever. I mean my gut says probably, but frustratingly I have never definitely been able to find out. All of her words seem to suggest that is the case as well, but again no proof.

I hate to tell you, but usually your gut about those things is right. You know the woman better than anyone else. So if you suspect it more than likely there is something there to suspect.

Ballast,

Quit blaming yourself, improve yourself.

Your W is also doing some revisionist history. People's current moods affect how they view the past, and events change to suit their current feelings.

Your W is full of it right now, don't listen to her BS and don't take any grief from her.

In other words, stop going down cheeseless tunnels.

Yeah Steve I hear ya on that...but what if my gut is simply wrong? Just don't know.

Ovrrnbw...even in my thoughts on resentment and what my role if any was in that and even though I was up almost all night...I was actually feeling detached from thinking of W. I guess perhaps I've underestimated the degree/amount of BS/randomness that might come from her via email/text.

It's a very strange place to be...impossible to believe anything especially when it is said so literally and matter of factly. Definitely need to just continue to focus on myself and D...anything else is just unknown/uncertain regarding W.

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I just feel like there is SO MUCH I failed at.

I know how you feel B. I truly do. But here's the thing - WW rewrite marriage history to rationalize and justify their actions. They exaggerate issues as if they are mountains, but they are actually hills that could've been summited if they were addressed in a timely manner. Okay, so you didn't listen and didn't do this and that. Now is your opportunity to turn that around for yourself.

The other thing about blaming yourself is this. AS had explained it really well in my threads when I was going through the same thing as you. We talk about the WW 'fog' here quite a bit. Some find it offensive, but I generally use it to describe their state of mind as if something has overtaken it temporarily and they are not being themselves.

The thing about this 'fog' is that both the WW and LBS are in it after BD, but in the exact opposite directions. WW externalizes all accountability for her actions and projects everything on to the LBS. The LBS internalizes everything and projects all the faults on to themselves. They have the WW on a pedestal and see the marriage through colored glasses. When the LBS takes time, space, does NC/dark, and GAL, the shine off the marriage comes off and the fog they are in starts to dissipate and they can see the marriage for what it actually was. They realize they were also unhappy for x reasons and that the WW was not a suitable partner for them as well. The LBS fog doesn't just magically lift - you have to put in work and trust the process. You have to focus on yourself.

The WW fog is not something you can directly affect. She has to go through it and come out on her own timeline. She has to feel some loss and her fantasy has to get shattered.

So, what to do about it for the LBS? You should acknowledge how you're feeling right now. But don't wallow in self-pity. Acknowledge you may not be seeing things the way they really were. That you're looking through the lens of pain and hurt and loss of control. That's not going to make it disappear, but if you recognize and name it, then you will be able to engage in positive self-talk to get past it.

But in this stage, GAL, NC/Dark is the name of the game. Trust me, that's the only thing that allowed me to get past this. So, just know that you're not operating in reality right now. Your mind is in survival mode and you want to get back that control desperately.

Take the gift of time and space. I know it doesn't feel like a gift right now, but it really is. The timeline for this is long. The space is crucial so that you can get your head straight. If you're like me, you are great at beating yourself up. Start practicing self-compassion as well. It takes two to make a marriage work and fail. She is also accountable.

When I felt like this I made three lists

1) this was a list of reasons why I didnt want or need W back. Some were petty and liveable ( she was untidy- didnt do her share of the house work) and some were game changers (W does not love me and I deserve to be loved- she could just walk out of our M) . I got up to fifty points very quickly (now beyond 80). This helped me see that she wasnt as perfect as I actually thought and she has got faults (quite a lot).

2) this was a list of things that I contributed-to the decay of our M. All the points I came up with are now things for me to improve upon for me and to make me a better person for future R either with W (unlikely) or somebody else. I found that these points also could improve a lot to help build better stronger friendships too.

3) this was a list of positive things I did in the M and the good that I contributed. (Sometimes you need to blow your own trumpet). I realised that I was not the monster she had made me feel like and was able to see that non of my actions or inactions justified her acting this way or leaving and espaecially not for another man.

W is certainly not perfect even before becoming WW
I saw my flaws so that I can work on them for myself-to make me a better me.
I am not a bad person and actually have very good qualities and traits.

This was just something that helped me.

RP - I love that!

I made similar lists too but didnt do points. Im gonna go do that today. Doing such a list was super helpful in seeing things more objectively

forgive me for trying to reply in a measured way. what I have been told is that W was resentful/anger while with me, but now without me is happy. In reflecting on our MR, there were definitely several ways in which I could have done better, been more attentive, acted more quickly on issues that bothered her. Did she tell me in a way I could understand, maybe/maybe not...was she willing to consult others to help us communicate our issues more effectively in order to move through her feelings of resent/anger, no.

In reply to Maika, I was happy in the marriage. I will say I was not completely happy, but I thought that throughout a marriage there would be natural ebbs and flows in feeling happy or not so I didn't ponder on it too much. Do I feel she was not a suitable partner for me, no I don't. I have the hardest time not believing that I ticked her off through not meeting her expectations, she tried to get her unhappiness through my thick head, I didn't listen and she gave up thinking I would never change. What is interesting to me is that for me personally I never got remotely close to feeling any kind of resentment towards her over the years we were together. I'm sure there were some things occasionally, but nothing at all that would ever rise to the level of my desire to vacate my vows and end our MR.

I'm sorry all...many times when I try to write how I'm feeling, I ramble and my words I feel are never good enough to convey what I'm trying to express. I marvel at folks like Maika, Steve, Stander, ACC, Sandi, etc who's comments are always so professional, excellent and flow so smoothly.

I feel so thankful to all of you who reply to me...I feel terrible that at times I feel so tougne tied in my attempts at reply. I loved her, I failed her, she couldn't take anymore and walked. Need to take some time and try to be kind to myself. To love someone so much, be SO dedicated to not failing a 2nd time and hear of her long list of supposed things I could not provide her AND her complete unwillingness to seek help for us...honestly that pain will last much longer than the BD.

Originally Posted by Rawpain

When I felt like this I made three lists

1) this was a list of reasons why I didnt want or need W back. Some were petty and liveable ( she was untidy- didnt do her share of the house work) and some were game changers (W does not love me and I deserve to be loved- she could just walk out of our M) . I got up to fifty points very quickly (now beyond 80). This helped me see that she wasnt as perfect as I actually thought and she has got faults (quite a lot).

2) this was a list of things that I contributed-to the decay of our M. All the points I came up with are now things for me to improve upon for me and to make me a better person for future R either with W (unlikely) or somebody else. I found that these points also could improve a lot to help build better stronger friendships too.

3) this was a list of positive things I did in the M and the good that I contributed. (Sometimes you need to blow your own trumpet). I realised that I was not the monster she had made me feel like and was able to see that non of my actions or inactions justified her acting this way or leaving and espaecially not for another man.

W is certainly not perfect even before becoming WW
I saw my flaws so that I can work on them for myself-to make me a better me.
I am not a bad person and actually have very good qualities and traits.

This was just something that helped me.

Really good Idea.
Homework for Me!
Ill post my results on my thread, thanks RP

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I will say I was not completely happy, but I thought that throughout a marriage there would be natural ebbs and flows in feeling happy or not so I didn't ponder on it too much. Do I feel she was not a suitable partner for me, no I don't. I have the hardest time not believing that I ticked her off through not meeting her expectations, she tried to get her unhappiness through my thick head, I didn't listen and she gave up thinking I would never change. What is interesting to me is that for me personally I never got remotely close to feeling any kind of resentment towards her over the years we were together.

Ok! I am going to challenge you on this because I don't buy it. I want you to honestly self-reflect, and even do the list that RP suggested. You say there are ebbs and flows - of course, but did you just let things slide that you didn't like? I am sure she did things you didn't appreciate, and she didn't meet your needs in some ways. I think you're being dismissive about your own personal needs and what you actually would've liked to see from her in the relationship. I can see your heart all over your message and I know you're hurting and that you're not able to objectively see what your marriage was and how she was in the marriage and contributed to its downfall.

Now about the listening thing - did she point blank tell you during the marriage you weren't listening to her? Or is this something she said after BD? Did she talk about her needs in circles?

Maybe you didn't have resentment, but explore the ebbs and flows more directly and see what you find. I don't want you to respond to this like right now. Go take a break from here, reflect and then come back in a day.

Originally Posted by ballast

forgive me for trying to reply in a measured way. what I have been told is that W was resentful/anger while with me, but now without me is happy. In reflecting on our MR, there were definitely several ways in which I could have done better, been more attentive, acted more quickly on issues that bothered her. Did she tell me in a way I could understand, maybe/maybe not...was she willing to consult others to help us communicate our issues more effectively in order to move through her feelings of resent/anger, no.

In reply to Maika, I was happy in the marriage. I will say I was not completely happy, but I thought that throughout a marriage there would be natural ebbs and flows in feeling happy or not so I didn't ponder on it too much. Do I feel she was not a suitable partner for me, no I don't. I have the hardest time not believing that I ticked her off through not meeting her expectations, she tried to get her unhappiness through my thick head, I didn't listen and she gave up thinking I would never change. What is interesting to me is that for me personally I never got remotely close to feeling any kind of resentment towards her over the years we were together. I'm sure there were some things occasionally, but nothing at all that would ever rise to the level of my desire to vacate my vows and end our MR.

I'm sorry all...many times when I try to write how I'm feeling, I ramble and my words I feel are never good enough to convey what I'm trying to express. I marvel at folks like Maika, Steve, Stander, ACC, Sandi, etc who's comments are always so professional, excellent and flow so smoothly.

I feel so thankful to all of you who reply to me...I feel terrible that at times I feel so tougne tied in my attempts at reply. I loved her, I failed her, she couldn't take anymore and walked. Need to take some time and try to be kind to myself. To love someone so much, be SO dedicated to not failing a 2nd time and hear of her long list of supposed things I could not provide her AND her complete unwillingness to seek help for us...honestly that pain will last much longer than the BD.

"what I have been told is that W was resentful/anger while with me, but now without me is happy."

Remember, believe NOTHING she says. I am sure most of us have felt resentful and angry in our MR at times. But that doesn't mean it was that way in totality. Further, if she was miserable without you YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THAT! She would never project that to you if she could help it, and certainly wouldn't say it.

ballast, you are too hard on yourself. Your comments and posts are fine. There are many times I go back and read my posts and think "wow, I could have worded that or conveyed that in a much clearer, more succinct way". None of us are perfect.

Hang in there brother, it will get better.

B - As the LBS I think it is very easy for us to assume all the responsibility in the MR for what went wrong. I will say though that unless there was some sort of abuse, etc. that is simply just not the case. Own what you did wrong but please don't own any of what your W contributed. Your W may indicate that she tried but IMO unless you went to MC and she made it clear to you there were problems she didn't try because you had no idea there was anything wrong and you both did not try together.

I never in a million years thought my EW would have left me. 2 years ago I was her rock, she couldn't imagine her life without me and the kids, I was a great husband, provider, lover, etc. and now we are D'd. I will never understand but I do accept it.

Also realize that you could have been the perfect husband and this very well still could have happened to you. Beating yourself up and constantly analyzing what went wrong is an exhausting task. Like M suggested look at your MR holistically and without the love goggles on and I am sure you will realize things that you didn't like about your MR either. After my emotions subsided and I was able to get clarity it became apparent to me that there were many things that I didn't like but I tolerated.

My W, your W, M's W, S's W and all the other W's are not perfect spouses. We were not either

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Your W may indicate that she tried but IMO unless you went to MC and she made it clear to you there were problems she didn't try because you had no idea there was anything wrong and you both did not try together.

A million times 'yes' to this!!! trying includes both people and anything else is complete bs.

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I never in a million years thought my EW would have left me. 2 years ago I was her rock, she couldn't imagine her life without me and the kids, I was a great husband, provider, lover, etc. and now we are D'd. I will never understand but I do accept it.

yes to this as well minus the D part for me. that's coming soon.

Maika, so I did some self reflection last night along with trying to get more sleep than I had the previous night. I'm not sure that what I came up with was resentment, more likely didn't like/appreciate. W was grumpy alot, perhaps due to the resentment/anger she had towards me. W was not flexible in her opinions. W did not like my mother, perhaps because she felt her a threat, although I would have always sided with my W and I thought she knew that. W wouldn't seek help for things she struggled with, also I don't think she appreciated the blessings that she had in her life. W only once at home post-baby can I recall her coming and kissing me, there was no hugging nor did she post-baby initiate any cuddling/sex. If I tried to, I was declined. When there was a task I was attempting to do around the house, if she became impatient or thought I could not do it, she would step in and take over instead of allowing me to continue. And I was constantly compared to the male members of her family. They were handy around the house whereas I was not. I think W felt she could not rely on me for stuff around the house, although her family members would say that's silly as I just had skills in different areas than them that were equally valuable. Bottom line I did not feel in her eyes I measured up to them even though I was learning from them skills for future use.

Listening...so I was fully attentive when she would talk to me. cell phone/tablet down, direct eye contact. W would say I didn't hear her OR we just weren't speaking the same language. W talked much about work and I was engaged in hearing her, asking her questions, etc. Many day to day topics were repeated BUT I think the key thing would have been if she could have just said to me "B, this issue is really important to me" I would have made it a priority as I would have known it was a priority to her. You can't talk about 100+ things as happens in the day to day of life and make all of them a priority. I just need to know "hey B, no crap this bugs the crap out of me and I need it taken care of ASAP".

Steve, yes even as I've been spinning in self-pity and blaming myself, I have continued to remind myself believe NOTHING. Also yes for whatever anger/resentment W may harbor towards me, she WAS happy at times. She was not miserable all the time I don't believe. And yes, for sure no way right now W would tell me anything other than she is happy as can be. The other rule of Never Give Up I've repeated to myself many times as well these last few days.

Joseph/Maika, there was no abuse, addiction, cheating, etc. I loved her, was loyal, dependable, provided her emotional support...I was a good, loyal, honorable, but imperfect man who always placed the needs of his W and family first. I can't say that she did not convey to me some things that bothered her, but as I say before I could not delineate the truly important ones from the lesser mundane ones. Since we separated we have had not a single phone call nor communication face to face regarding the issues that caused us to split. While I have learned some things from her they have all been via chat/email. She felt we were roommates and to be clear I don't disagree to an extent, but as a couple with a small child and both of us working I felt it more of a circumstance of where we were in our lives at that time as opposed to a permanent reflection of our relationship for the rest of our lives. If you Google for that you will find the internet is littered with tons of couples with young children expressing the same sentiment. Also when we were on vacations, we were MUCH better. Since separation W refused any kind of professional counseling/assistance and it has only been myself who has wanted to try to resolve/address our issues. Pre-separation we never had a communication about the need/desire for us to seek outside help either.

I think I was a great father, great provider, dependable/dedicated/loving husband who was imperfect. I was lazy at times, a procrastitnator, but if at ANY time W wanted/needed something done or to go here or there, I was ALWAYS agreeable to doing so. Post-baby I was not a great lover, but it had nothing to do with a loss of attraction for W. W did not initiate, was struggling with body image and seemed un-open to my advances. Again though on vacation, we were much better.

I guess the last thing to say is getting divorced once, I was able to more readily accept it as a life-mulligan. I saw the loss of the first as necessary for the beauty of the second that I felt beyond blessed to find. That I am now facing the possible loss of the second when specifically I wanted to be so dedicated to it's success AND I have such a beautiful D who's life will be forever impacted by it's failure...I am VERY hard on myself. To lose one marriage is one thing...to lose a second with an innocent child involved is quite another. I have had friends say "third time is the charm" but given each of my prior MRs wherein my W just basically decided "nope, don't want to be married anymore" the thought of EVER having another MR even though I would very much want to enjoy a lifetime love just seems too impossible and I worry that the rug will get pulled from under me again.

Thank you all very much for your continued interest and support that you provide me.

B - I know it is very difficult but there may not have been anything different you could have done. Maybe there were signs but maybe not. $hit happens all the time to good people you just have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep moving forward. Attractive people get D'd, celebrities get D'd, the word D does not discriminate. I have just accepted that it is very much an individual thing and if in my EW heart she did not want to make it work and try then there was nothing I could have done.

Truthfully I just think that some people are not satisfied with just living. Some people are always chasing, not ready to just live the life of being married and raising children. Sure you can have date nights, maybe take a couples trip once a year or whenever but if that is your norm and your with someone who is no longer satisfied by that then what is next? You get married, you buy your first home, you have kids, you make some home improvements, you take some trips, maybe you buy a second home, you get involved with your kids and their activities, maybe you take some more trips, you get some hobbies, you have kids practices and school activities, etc. etc. etc. That is life......I just think for some people that routine gets boring over time so they start looking at what is next in their life. They start to wonder if that is all there is in life? So you could have done things perfectly but if your spouse thinks there is something else out there that is better, different, that shakes up the norm, that maybe brings them that excitement again, it gives them the feeling that there is more to life than just living or the feeling that they are no longer bored or that they still have life left in them to live.

I could be wrong but I think some people are just not satisfied, might never be satisfied, and it is all relatively to their position in life. I think that is why IMO D does not discriminate...money, trips, etc. might make life easier or give the perception of more fulfillment but to those people that have it eventually that becomes the norm as well and it just gets taken for granted.

Which to me further drives home the point of finding happiness within and I think in most of our situations the spouse that is leaving does not have it or is trying to find it.

Just please stop beating yourself up......

Ballast,

I think we are living through very similar situations and emotions and our timelines are very close. Right now I am living through a period of beating myself up a good bit. I see what an emotional leach I was, and I can understand why that would be unattractive and repulsive to anyone. I think it is important to recognize those deficiencies, because otherwise how are we going to correct them? The trick is in recognizing these problems and addressing them without self-flagellating excessively. If you are like me it is way too easy to fall into wallowing in depression or self-pity.

While going through that process it is hard to recognize that W is going through her own issues, and has her own problems. Her unhappiness may be partially related to the negative relationship, but most likely it has deeper roots and she needs to go through her own process of self-evaluation and self-growth. Anyone who walks out on a relationship without making an honest attempt to work through the problems clearly has issues of her own. That isn't a normal or healthy response. Joseph is so right - happiness has to come from within, both for us and for the WAW. She is out there looking for happiness through a new single life - that's a losing strategy. New friends, new activities, new clothes, new relationships, none of that is going to fill the emptiness in her heart, or in ours.

Hang in there. You are worthy.

Joseph, yes I continue to work through accepting that no matter what there may have been nothing I could do in my sitch. W may simply be done and want out. As you say Sh*t happens to good people all the time. If my W does not want the MR, it is what it is. On a side note my middle sister who was telling me she was WW, well last night I got great news. She had spoken with my BIL about being unhappy/her struggles, asked him to work with her by going to IC/MC and he agreed! He did not get angry, validated her feelings...wonderful news! Now they have a long road for sure, BUT they together want to try and save their MR. At least there is real tangible hope for them. I prayed thanks to God for my sister choosing the right path, my BIL for being receptive to IC/MC and most of all that my nephews and neice might still have their family saved and maintained. At the same time, however, I couldn't help ask of God...is my young D not worthy of the same? Why can my W not have the same revelation? I know it was mostly a rhetorical ask, but I couldn't help myself to ask if them, why not my W and I.

As for the rest of your comments, as I have been told many times by many people, a D in my sitch if it comes to that was entirely W's decision. And I've also been told that this entire event is likely not even about me. As you state there are likely within my W core issues within herself that she has not settled or come to terms with. It is tragic beyond words for the two of us to have married, had a beautiful D and then had this happen, but it has.

Davide, thank you buddy! You have been a constant support within my sitch and I very much appreciate you! Actually in your post you say exactly and much better what I was just trying to say to Joseph above. As you said:

"While going through that process it is hard to recognize that W is going through her own issues, and has her own problems. Her unhappiness may be partially related to the negative relationship, but most likely it has deeper roots and she needs to go through her own process of self-evaluation and self-growth. Anyone who walks out on a relationship without making an honest attempt to work through the problems clearly has issues of her own. That isn't a normal or healthy response."

Detachment for both of us is required first from our W's decision and then even a second level detachment must occur regarding what you describe above...separating within ourselves the perceived failures that we brought to the MR from the more deep rooted issues within our W that led to their BD and D decisions.

ballast and Davide, part of the journey through your sitch, while DBing, is that you fully accept your responsibility in contributing to the problems in your MR, and 180 on those. The reason for that is to become better, stronger, and ready for the next R in your life. Whether that is MR 2.0 with your W or whether that is a brand new R with someone else.

The problem is to not allow it to turn into self-pity, wallowing and being depressed about it. Beating yourself up over it does no good! Recognizing your mistakes, and resolving to learn and grow from them IS the key. And start right away. Don't dwell on the mistakes, recognize and take action.

And do it for yourself! Don't do it to try to convince your W to stay. Lasting change isn't to try and manipulate others or to achieve some specific outcome. You make the changes so that you are better moving forward! This is why we constantly talk about being the best you that you can be. Not for any other reason than to be the best you for yourself. (Others will take note, but that isn't the goal.)

Steve...yep I've been fully accepting of my part in the MR, unfortunately, I've I'm sure gone too far in blaming myself. For me with my W gone, many of the things I could 180 on, while I recognize how I could have done them differently, I can't execute on them. And then the counterpoint to this all is that, if W did not explain to me the sources of her unhappiness with me and/or W simply did not want to be married anymore, no degree of self reflection on my part may have made a single bit of difference.

As you say best we can do is self-reflect, do the best we can with the information we have to improve ourselves and go forward hopefully as a better, more learned partner in our next R. It is just a very challenging proposition when the one person who can really provide to us those areas that contributed to their unhappiness in being with us in an MR are not talking.

ballast, you are giving her too much power. YOU know you better than anyone else. You don't need her to recognize your weaknesses and work on improving in those areas. Maybe it is easier to hear it from your spouse, but that doesn't mean you should be dependent on that.

Self-discovery is about turning inward not outward. It is about looking at yourself honestly, and asking questions like:

"What did I do that contributed to my W leaving?"
"What is it about me that either causes me to have many or few friends?"
"How do other people react to me? Is it positive or negative? What is it about me that causes these reactions?"

There are many, many more. And there are follow-up questions too. "What in my past contributes to these behaviors?" "What can I do to make sure I change these things about me?"

In the end, if it becomes too difficult to sort through, get a good IC and work through all of that. The IC will help you look inwardly, not outwardly. And then explore what it is you discover about yourself and ways to change it.

You are going to be better for all of this ballast, if you resolve to be. So make the resolution now to become awesome!

Steve so I'm definitely invested in introspection of myself. Absence validation of what I perceive to be my faults/failures/etc it feels much more like throwing darts. As I say me laying around watching TV instead of spending time with her, being a procrastinator, etc...all valid things I can change. BUT what if, just flat out one day some OM showed up, swept her off her feet and she was gone/done. Now again all the things I think I did wrong, can improve I do wish to correct for the future, but man look at this board...it's littered with WW/WHs who just took off for EA/PAs. LBH/LBW could have been perfect and yet still their spouse took off.

I'm a good guy, many friends, positively viewed by many, but what if my W just simply said "I don't want to be married/do this anymore" and took off to OM's arms. Should I be introspecting myself to death when simply put it could have had nothing to do with and all to do with her?

You are right on the money that I have to go through the entire process of self-evaluation for ME using MY awareness of my strengths/weaknesses. My only contention with what you say is in sitchs where the W just simply bails out, how does the left behind determine a true weakness/character flaw vs the weakness/flaw actually being in the one who took off?

At this point my W is getting deeper into the specifics of D, although I don't even know for sure based on what she says if she has even retained an L. I will say this talk and some of the unreasonableness or simply factually wrong information that she has provided has really pushed my detachment to new levels.

Originally Posted by ballast

You are right on the money that I have to go through the entire process of self-evaluation for ME using MY awareness of my strengths/weaknesses. My only contention with what you say is in sitchs where the W just simply bails out, how does the left behind determine a true weakness/character flaw vs the weakness/flaw actually being in the one who took off?

ballast, so your question is why do the self-examination if your W just simply left without any fault of yours?

First, that would put you in approximately .01% of all cases.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that in your case this is true. How would you ever determine that WITHOUT doing the self-examination. Maybe at the end of the self-discovery you realize "I am awesome and she was stupid to leave me!" Then that would be your answer. I just don't know that you can determine that your W left you for no fault of your own without doing the work of examining self.

Steve, no definitely not that. For sure I had faults. I'm simply and only saying what if I say it was faults 1-5 whereas W believes "nope it was actually 6-10". We always say no telling what the WW is thinking/feeling and not to try to figure them out. So hypothetically without confirmation from the aggrieved on what we believe our faults were, then we likely may never definitively know.

Yeah i mean your last paragraph is basically what I'm getting at...although for sure none of us are perfect nor fully awesome or without fault. Without the affirmation of the WW what I mean is saying maybe it was just 1-2 things that drove them bonkers...absent that validation many of us could deep end into like 15 things we think we screwed up. The deeper we make our supposed pit of failures, the more dramatically and deeper into self-pity, etc we can fall.

I'm definitely doing the self reflection for myself, but it can be exhausting and absent "knowing" what if I'm barking up the entirely wrong trees fault wise is all.

Very much appreciate your continued discussion on this with me!

ballast, my pleasure! And your point "I'm definitely doing the self reflection for myself, but it can be exhausting and absent "knowing" what if I'm barking up the entirely wrong trees fault wise is all." is a good one. And that is where an IC can be invaluable. WWs would be terrible at this because they'd give you a laundry list, some valid and a lot made up!

You know one thing I can't get over, understand is that now as we are more into discussing D issues, I am constantly being "poked/jabbed" as if I'm the bad guy by W. It really is something to experience it. A friend of mine made a very interesting point to me when he said "once you are gone and done with her...where is she going to go with all of that anger/resentment/frustration she has?"

The change from your closest confidante to someone who despises you so quickly and so much of what they say about you patently and simply not true...really amazing.

Quote

"once you are gone and done with her...where is she going to go with all of that anger/resentment/frustration she has?"

that is why NC/Dark is so key. She cannot project it onto you and you are just simply not around to be the cause of her anger resentment and frustration. Now, she has to deal with it without you. And that is the opportunity for them to do the internal work, but they don't generally do it, while the LBS is doing that internal work.

It was truly the best thing I could do for myself - get out of her firing line. The LBS cannot do anything about the anger, resentment stuff. The WS has to deal with it themselves and once they are finished blaming the LBS for everything and those feelings are still there, who to blame now? They have to go on their path and you need to get out of the way for your own sanity and minimizing stress levels.

definitely was a point that I had not thought about until my friend said that. IC does not believe W will do the work either. it is sobering to hear a professional tell you that the one you loved so much likely will not choose nor be able to do the type of introspection that each of us as LBS are almost obligated to do.

hate the random flashbacks throughout the workday of our happy times together...very hard to accept the happiness of the past with the barrenness/sadness of the present. keep working to try and pop myself out of those types of triggers.

Journaling a bit...

Had a nice weekend with D as always. At least when I have my D with me 2/3rd's of my life is complete. Continue to do a ton of self-reflection and an "action plan" of ways that I feel I could be a better partner in a future relationship. It's important to build the list for myself and the future. If I examine the list against the past it's too easy to assume all fault for the failure of my MR and that leads to a spiral. As far as W...I find myself less thinking on the specifics of our MR and more on the just HOW a spouse can simply walk away from a MR without giving it every chance. I realize ultimately that no matter what I think, those are the cards that have been dealt me. I just can't rationalize W's complete reluctance to talk (no phone calls, meet ups, can't look me in the eye) to any other reason than there being an OM.

I have progressed in the almost 5 months since BD. I have met some other ladies who give me hope for the future if I ever decide to try a relationship again, I know time has detached me somewhat from W and so has the talk of D process, but I'm aware I'm still very much a work in progress with that. Just trying to focus on me and my D and making a new life for us given the new reality. It's interesting to me how W has gotten angrier and less rational as the time apart has gone by. I would have expected the opposite given how she is getting what she wants. It will be nice to be done with all of her drama beyond co-parenting. It's amazing how much W's actions have helped push me on through detaching from her, but it's true.

Praying for all of you and your sitches.

-B

So W showed up in my dreams last night. Amazingly since separation as much as I think on her and us while awake, rarely has she shown in my sleep. In my dream W was the one I feel in love with, nothing more than a snippet of she and I as we were before and just after our MR began.

Got down on my knees and prayed. Told God I missed her, I loved her and that I was sorry for whatever it was about me or that I did that turned her into this person that I no longer recognize. Didn't ask God to bring her back though. Don't understand any of this...but I'm just trying to continue to be at peace with that reality and go on.

Morning B,
I just posted that I have had dreams about my W also . In 2 of them we we much in together in love. I too do not know what this means. I too continue to pray for God blessing thru this difficult time. Wishing you peace brother!

Wlf...as I say it's funny how for me with all the time my sitch occupies my waking hours, how little of her exists in my dreams. I guess I should also say these days my waking hours dwell on the specifics of divorce and not about our former MR or her current thoughts. in my dream we were together and seemingly happy, nothing more.

As for meaning, well I don't even try to think on that. It's as pointless to me at this time as trying to figure W's feelings is. I pray for her, me, my D...for whatever way may come to each of us, but that's as far as I go. As I say my goal these days is simply being able to accept and move on through whatever occurs in life that I don't understand. If I'm honest inside of me as my parents and other family members age, I'm filled with anxiety over what the next 10 years will bring to my life in terms of loss of loved ones. At times I wonder if somehow this "loss" I'm experiencing now is in some way God's preparation for me of a future pain yet to face. It seems a terrible lesson for me to go through..especially as this would/will be my 2nd, but part of me does wonder. The thought of losing a loved one always can keep me filled with anxiety, to possibly now have to face that reality without my W...like I say perhaps my pain right now is to prepare me for handling greater pain in the future. That must sound kinda crazy, but when I reflect on my sitch that's just a pathway down which my mind takes me.

It could be self defense it could just be practical detachment, either way I think it�s the right path. I feel for your D, my older one is the same age, so full of innocence and so unaware of what is going on. They deserve the best and it�s so painful to watch this unfold, keep your strength and give your D all the love you can find in you. - arshi

My W is in my dreams most nights since BD. Often it is in a loving way and it usually leaves me sad when I wake. Sometimes she's there is a negative way or neutral way and again, it usually leaves me sad when I wake.

I just accept it and know that it's my subconscious doing whatever it's going to do. You're lucky that it seems to be a rare occurrence for you. Your post sounds like you are really detaching given what you describe your thought process to be right now. Just keep loving your D and yourself and however this ultimately turns out for you, you're going to be a better man at the end of it.

thank you arsh/hongaku for your replies! Yes Arsh all my strength and love to my D! It is the small things that amaze me. I can be playing with her and then the lighting in the house will make me reflect back to that time in the year last year when W was still here and pictures of D I took at that time...and then I catch myself and snack back into the present. Our minds are both our blessing and our curse, how we control our mind is essential to our recovery.

Hongaku well I think you overly praise me for my detachment. All I can say is I hit my knees and prayed after the dream. Thankfully at least it was for God's grace, strength and blessing to make it through whatever may come. That I didn't pray for my W to come back I guess I can see as a level of progress in my detachment. As someone said I'm still in love with the ghost of who my W used to be, but not the person whom my W has presently become. Just gonna keep on loving my beautiful D like the best Daddy ever and keep moving on...

Originally Posted by ballast

I was sorry for whatever it was about me or that I did that turned her into this person that I no longer recognize.

You gotta remember that this is not all on you, bud. It's good that you own up to your part of things, but she made a conscious choice to do what she's doing. Don't be too hard on yourself...

Agree with MTB. I know I spent so much time focusing on things I did wrong and even things I had blamed myself for that were not my fault. I think it would be helpful if you spend some time writing out a list of things that you did well in your marriage, things that you know you bring by way of value to a relationship, some goals you can look towards accomplishing, and just reasons why you are an awesome person. I think self confidence is really the name of the game when it comes to DB. Certainly for the LBH, the ww has such power in the way they are able to decimate the self-confidence of the LBH and convince them that they are to blame for the downfall of the entire marriage. it sounds to me like you have fallen victim to the most effective tool in the ww toolbox, gaslighting. we all need to accept our responsibility for our contributions to the downfall of our MR, but we must be careful not to accept blame for things that were not our fault. do something nice for yourself man, and get an extra workout in. Those endorphins are magical

mtb...yep for sure. wasn't taking all the blame for it at all. simply taking ownership of and acceptance for my part in the MR. it is important for me to be cognizant to the reality that perhaps I did not fufill my vows to the degree that W needed. just think it's important as frequently looking into myself that I try and understand best I can my W's point of view and feelings.

OK, honestly don't think my self-confidence, esteem has taken much of a hit...at least I don't "feel" that they have. I have heard some crazy things from my W about what I did/didn't do to be sure. As I said to mtb I for sure try to see W's point of view as much as I can. If W moves on to another man, sure that will hurt, but that will also be the nail in the coffin so to speak. Again her choices. I know I'm a good man if imperfect, know I have areas to improve myself in, but if her decisions take her away from me, what more can I do but continue forward? Could I be on here a hot mess tomorrow, yep, but also again maybe not...each day that passes I'm one day further down the road to whatever lies ahead in my life. that's all I keep in my sights these days. waves of life might rock me left and right...I'll just do my best to stay seated in the center of the boat.

coming up on 5 months separated...simply today's date compared to the day she left...so much time apart and how quickly it seems to have gone by...memories of our life together come in and out of my mind at the most random of times. my D and I are great and in reality I'm already living my post-D life, if it comes to her filing D would just be the legal action of my currently lived existence. when I have D with me, at least 2/3rds of my life feels complete...I want that last 1/3rd but perhaps it's not God's plan so I must continue coming to terms with that.

friends have been saying maybe perhaps there is not OM. maybe she just lost feelings and took off. it's possible I guess, feel like it would hurt worse if there was not an OM though as that would make me worse about the status of our MR. to not have OM, leave straight away and not be open to saving/working/building a new MR, that's a bigger swing to the confidence in how I was as a partner. but who knows...it's all mindless ramblings on the why/how of W.

looking over the board hard to believe but I feel like an old timer now. even if not for resolution of my sitch, I would be so happy if over time this board had less and less activity and new members. the contrast between the pain expressed and lived on these boards relative to the many wonderful members who offer hope/help/comfort, this is the most terrible sad and wonderful of places the internet has. as always I want to thank any and all of you who have given me support/comfort over my time here. presently in my sitch the only like new event will be W filing for D. before coming here I never considered my R with W AFTER D. to me D was the end of the line for life. don't know what the future will hold for me. just have to keep moving on along with my D. funny couple of days ago I was getting D up from bed at my house and as I carried her she said to me "I love sleeping in my bed"...through all of my other wants for my life to include her mommy, at this time that one sentence was completely all I need.

my prayers for all of you...

-B

Remember, never give up hope! As long as their life in your bodies, even after D, there is always hope.

And there is almost always an OM. Either real or imagined. So don't sweat that. Just keep DBing.

How is your GAL coming along?

yep Steve I do hold on to never giving up hope, although with the passage of time and W's actions, I find myself more willing to give myself up to the future and the unknown. as I say for me at least the W's actions/selfishness/etc have been major contributors to my acceptance and moving along. as many vets have pointed out "would you really want to be with that person now?" definitely not.

and yes I mean my gut tells me there is as W's actions would just seem even that more crazy were there not to be. one night stand, ongoing, meh who knows.

GAL wise...now that I have D for a week at a time I spend all of that being fully on best Daddy possible. On the other weeks I'm in the gym each morning, work, go out for dinner, trying to read some books I've wanted to (although I end up falling asleep much too soon!) and then I spend weekends with some of my family and close friends doing whatever or nothing at all. It's not perhaps the most glamorous or adventurous, but I'm in great shape, value the time with those who love me and I've been sleeping great throughout. Still considering some trips by myself and with football season not too far around the corner looking forward to making some games and tailgating.

hi all...part of me thinks this might be my last post, even though I see in my last post just above I say I'm never giving up. I guess with almost zero contact with W now I just don't see how hope is possible. the specifics of my day to day life post-W both with and without D aren't bad really, but I do miss her and the love I had for the woman she used to be.

I don't and perhaps never will understand the real reason why W left, why she can't see me/talk to me and why W could not agree to seek help with me to address our issues. W truly just walked away. Is she WW? Perhaps that is why she is unable to do the things I just listed. W has never said sorry, asked how I was, nothing...

I'm sorry I just needed a place to vent this morning. I have read some other sitches where the LBS have had their WW's come back and/or at least make progress in that direction. If I felt there was something terrible in my sitch that I had done, I could understand my W being as she is. Not at all saying I did not have my faults, but nothing insurmountable that we couldn't have worked through.

I'm sad folks. Helpless situation. No reason to doubt W will D and seemingly no chance she will change her mind nor nothing I could say or do. It is very hard when you feel you've disappointed the one you love the most and they walk away. I will always be ready to work on us, but W left and has given me exactly nothing in terms of hope since almost 5 months ago. If/as you go to church today pray for those of us like me.

-b

Ballast,

Hang in there. This is a normal part of the grieving process. You need to let yourself experience these feelings. Just don't let yourself wallow in them too long. I am right with you in this process. I am also feeling hopeless regarding any possible R. I don't speak with my W, or even communicate via text or email more than every couple of weeks.

Personally, I think it is okay to be hopeless about the sitch, just not hopeless about yourself. You need to focus on working on YOU, not the MR, not her. The farther I dive into the depths of this process the more work I see that I need on my end. I certainly don't want to assume anything about you, but I bet you would discover work you could do on yourself to improve as a human being (forget being a man, father, husband).

Trust the process.

I completely second what Davide said.

Just to give you perspective, you've been in this for 5 months. That's a very short period of time. You're looking at a much longer timeline for any results - whether a move to recon, or even making lasting changes within yourself. I am 14 months past BD and I have just truly reached a place of equilibrium. And even by many accounts here, this is faster than expected. The more complicated your sitch, the longer the process will be to emotionally and mentally deal with it.

Hope is a funny thing. It is very hard to live with it and move forward. Only when you redirect that hope to saving yourself, can it actually help you propel forward.

We all have enormous potential for growth. look up post-traumatic growth - i believe there is even a TED talk about it. Even though I have done a lot of thinking lately and come to some really insightful realizations, I still didn't have a process to move forward. I saw an interview with Mastin Kipp and went and picked up his book the same day - Claim your Power. He basically articulates the insights I came to through my thinking, but takes it a step forward. His book gives you a structured process to ask the right questions and start reframing and redirecting your thinking. I would highly suggest you look it up and see if it's something that would help you. I am a week into it and it's already very helpful.

I would say - don't hang in there. Get outside your box.

I can tell you this for a fact - I don't have any hope for recon now, and even if she came back and wanted to patch things up, I wouldn't take her 'as is'. She's going to have to put a ton of work into it for me to even consider it.

But I am so incredibly hopeful for my future. I have changed and it shows on the inside and outside, and I am so proud of where I've come so far and what's in store for me. I am crushing it at work now and really excited towards what we're building together as a team in the next year or two. My relationship with the kids has never been better - another amazing parenting book is 'the conscious parent' by Shefali Tsabary. Changed my life. I am pursuing what brings me great joy and satisfaction, and stuff that feeds my spirit.

The overall message is this - on the other side of the tunnel lies a vast world full of contentment, joy, and positive vibes. Crawl and grind your way through it if you have to. I certainly did and I have never been this happy and positive in two decades. I know it's hard to wrap your head around it, and I would've laughed it off and dismissed this even six months ago. But, now that I am a few steps beyond the tunnel and I couldn't be more ecstatic.

I put in the work and really internalized that no one was going to rescue me and help me. I was waiting for a savior for a long time and they didn't come. And that's when I realized I was my savior and that empowerment was intoxicating.

Let that hope blossom in your heart for YOU! That flower will be even more colorful than you ever imagined. You got this!

Hey B- I went to church today and said a prayer for you and your family. I want to let you know that I too have felt like throwing in the towel. I want to quit when I am feeling emotionally depleted and exhausted but for some reason I feel that I could not live with myself if I did. Along with my focus to be the best that I can- I put my faith in God. That he will provide me with all that I need and more. In today's reading it showed what he did with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. All we have to do is to be obedient, patient and ask with contrite heart. I do not know where my sitch is going- what i do know is that God will be here to guide me thru it. I just want to show you my support brother. Blessings!

davide/maika/wlf...I want to thank each one of you for your words of encouragement. Davide I know we've been on a shared path for some time now. Maika as always the depth of your reflection...I can't reply in a justifiable way although I will look into some of those videos/books you suggested.

My D goes back to be with W starting tomorrow which is why I'm up and can't sleep. I HATE that our D does not have her family all the time and D I know personally feels it even though she's not quite 4. Does W remotely even care? To just let all that we had go with no attempt to save it...if we D we will not be friends, I do not know if I will ever be able to forgive her...not that she would likely care anyway.

Wlf...reading your post brought tears to my eyes. To know that someone else in this world who I don't truly know went to church and prayed for me and my family..truly thank you and God bless you! Soon after reading your post, I got down and prayed for all of the many wonderful spouses on here suffering and for their children who face the same future as my D. I know in this modern world where divorce is so common place and oh "the kids will be fine" mentality, DA!MNIT children having their mother and their father together matters!! The thought of my D not having another Christmas morning with both of us or a shared vacation...seriously Wlf you praying for me and my family meant the world to me! In all the pain that people can inflict on one another, you show me that there is still hope for good in people.

dropped D off at daycare this morning...tears streaming down my face as I left her. Women don't like men who aren't strong...I'm sorry, I simply can't be strong when giving up half of my chlid's life. If women can't respect/understand that, then I'll live alone the rest of my life.

I believe that I've found more evidence to support there being OM. W not wanting to do anything about trying to work things out, the only possible reason is OM. It's cliche to say as all of us LBS say it, but I must let her go. Need to work on my mind and keep myself from going down memory lane. I am way too weak emotionally to think back into the past. I somehow need to compartmentalize and only allow my mind to think in the present and perhaps peek into the future.

I'm broken on half time with my D. Totally destroyed on that aspect. As for being with W, just haunted by the ghost of who she was. And I failed her, if I had been more of what she needed, even though I didn't know what that was she wouldn't have been tempted/vulnerable to walking away. I have myself to blame for this. I'm sorry all I'm just to work and can barely type this out. Again if women need a strong man, I give up. I'm way too emotional on things like this to be worth a lady taking a shot with me in the future. Bless you all for your support. It means so much to me.

ballast, this is normal for a LBS, especially a LBH to think. You could have been a perfect H and this still could have happened. You have no way of knowing that for sure. Own your part in the failure of the MR. DO NOT OWN HER PART. Short of physical abuse, and few other extremely rare behaviors, there is never an excuse for stepping outside of the bonds of the MR. So no YOU are not to blame for her actions.

B....I lost half of my time with both my daughters but it�s not as bad as I thought it was going to be. I told myself early on it was like I traveled for work and was only home on the weekends, i thought about people in the military who were away from the their families for months, I thought about kids who had their parents die or maybe their parent wanted nothing to do with them and just walked away. It [censored] no lie, it will get better but know that it could be some much worse.

Morning b- Thinking about ya , praying for ya. I am honored to have touched you by simply praying for your family. Listen, there are times that get us so down -where we just want to end it. Or we feel it is just a bad nightmare that should end soon. Unfortunately this is our new reality - something we must face head on. Please do not take all the blame- own what is yours. Failure to communicate needs to you from your W fall on her. Man - I know this su@ks but we need to try to make the best of it. Cling to God - place your troubles at the foot the cross. And be the best you can be - Blessings!

thank you steve, joseph and wlf...

steve...of course you are completely right...my emotions this morning caused me to pity party and go down a tunnel. her leaving especially if OM is involved...there is plenty of our MR for her to own.

joseph...you are right of course as well...the anxiety of dropping D off is the worst part for me. during the time that she is with W I do get along quite well going to the gym, reading, going out, etc...it's the transfer that kills the most. and you are definitely correct that other families/children have it way worse than myself and my D. honestly after experiencing this new reality in my life, I marvel at how military families handle the long term separations. I need to be much more mindful of the blessings I continue to have in my life rather than being envious of those that I no longer have...the loss of time though...any parent who loves their children can appreciate what I'm feelin.

Wlf...you did sir. it's a very touching thing to have someone you don't know praying for you and your family. all that you say I realize...acceptance of the new reality for sure I struggle with...detaching from my W I think I've been doing quite well with..."detaching" from my D in terms of custody...that is the most painful. just have to keep moving forward one day at a time and hope for God's grace, strength and comfort to get me through...

Hey B - not gonna lie, but the most difficult aspect of all of this for me has been having my time with the kids cut in half. I think I can move past whatever W has done, but this is the one piece that I am not sure I will be able to ever get past.

Even though I know that I probably won't ever get past it, I knew that I had to figure out how to cope with this. What J said is totally a positive way of having a healthy coping mechanism.

I also promised myself that I would not waste my time when the kids were not with me. I would do everything in that time to make sure I was growing and making positive changes to become the person I desired to become, and have massive successful outcomes as a parent. And when the kids are with me, I would make sure my time with them was filled with love, joy, and strengthening our relationship. My kids absolutely adore the time they have with me and we have become so much closer now. I have totally improved as a parent and my kids love being around me and we do amazing things together.

So, instead of looking at this as a half empty situation, look at it like how you can squeeze everything out of every second they are with you. Write down a list of what you want your kids to remember about you when you leave this world and then follow through on that.

I am investing in myself every day and I double down on that when they are away from me. Do that and you'll hold your head up high.

Listen, the pain is real and there will always be that ache. But when you maximize 150% of life when they are with you and go the same when they are not, you will be unstoppable. People say it gets easier over time. My take is that it doesn't get easier over time, you just invest in positive coping mechanisms so that you don't fall apart. That investment increases your resilience and will also do the same for your kids - you can show them that they can grow from this situation as well. Be that rock for them. Shower them with love and affection. Listen to them. Laugh and have fun with them. Read to them. Play silly games with them. Give them space to be independent and accept them for who they are. Support them through the hard times and let them figure out solutions to challenges with you being there as support. If you do all of that, you've already won the parenting game compared to most people.

I don't let my ache drag me down. I use my ache to muscle up and grow.

maika...thank you for your reply. yes when D is with me I don't waste a second of that time. nothing in this world matters more to me and she and I stay busy the whole time. I guess that is why the transfer is so painful. for the time we're together as much of my previous life as possible is whole again. its like if W wants to leave, fine, but all of us pay dearly for her decision. and of course I know that's life...

the one area where I need to invest in is maintaining that same level of not wasting time when D is not with me, although at least I don't feel lonely and generally enjoy my time alone...I do know that there are ways that I could more fully maximize that time than I'm doing now. perhaps as I'm only just shy of 5 months into my sitch, allowing myself time to relax, handle stress, get sleep is enough for now...as my process goes so too will my ability to take on more in my alone time.

i've come to realize that all I need to do at this point is let W go, figure out my housing situation for myself and D and get through the D if it comes to that. W has done much to destroy our family and my feelings for her so letting go especially with her having no interest in me is getting easier daily. acceptance is a process and I just have to keep working at it.

Nothing wrong with taking the time to relax, manage stress and get sleep. In the beginning when the kids are not around, you need that. I don't want you to take what I said as you have to be active all the time. I spend my time reading, meditating, listening to podcasts, making new food etc. But I also get good sleep and take care of my stress. I wanted to improve my parenting skills and so I spent a lot of time on that when kids weren't around to understand my behaviors and then see how it went when they came back.

Anyways, it took me a good 7-8 months after BD to get to a place where I felt I wasn't wasting my time when the kids weren't around. It's a process. Be compassionate towards yourself and if sleep and netflix n chill is what you need, then do that for now.

Acceptance takes time. You can pretend to accept things in the beginning to help your healing, but it takes a little while. Again, don't beat yourself up. Take care of physical and mental health and give yourself a break. You're going through some hard $hit. You can't do all what you want to do right away.

maika, yep I get it on not needing to be crazy active all the time and I too definitely want to improve my parenting skills so some of my free time is planning out, thinking about the upcoming time I have with D and what we'll be doing and also sometimes how I might handle better scenarios that came up between us when we were together previously like tantrums, NO!, young children stuff like that.

and yeah...taking care of myself when D is not around, trying to be easy on myself especially when I get to feeling like I was the only one that caused my W to leave...still at a point of self care and preservation for sure.

time...many times I wish I could just fast forward a year...for now on any given day I can swirl from sadness, anger, acceptance, despair, pity, apathy...one day at a time is best I can do and try to get through whatever comes my way internally and externally.

Originally Posted by ballast

maika, yep I get it on not needing to be crazy active all the time and I too definitely want to improve my parenting skills so some of my free time is planning out, thinking about the upcoming time I have with D and what we'll be doing and also sometimes how I might handle better scenarios that came up between us when we were together previously like tantrums, NO!, young children stuff like that.

and yeah...taking care of myself when D is not around, trying to be easy on myself especially when I get to feeling like I was the only one that caused my W to leave...still at a point of self care and preservation for sure.

time...many times I wish I could just fast forward a year...for now on any given day I can swirl from sadness, anger, acceptance, despair, pity, apathy...one day at a time is best I can do and try to get through whatever comes my way internally and externally.

I forget, are you in IC? IC is so important to sort out these roller-coaster emotions. The people I see struggle the most are not in IC. We often here the "I can't afford it" excuse. In reality, you can't afford NOT to do IC.

steve so the MC that I've been going to since W left and that W has never gone to with me is also an IC...in other words MC is a subset of her specialties...so yes I've been working with someone basically since just after BD.

Ballast , any quality woman worth her mettle with strong values would want a man who is vulnerable to emotions and has strong bond with his children. With all the craziness WH has put me thru if I didn�t feel he genuinely loves the kids I would have cut him loose by now. Wear your emotions and your bond with D3 proudly. I see so many similarities with our sitches, with a 3 year old you cannot have the D talk but at the same time she will understand mommy and daddy are not together anymore. I hurt every time I think of her confusion. As I always say, thank god I have children, can�t imagine going thru this without their love. Give D3 extra hugs when you see her - arshi

thank you arsh I really appreciate that! it's hard to resolve for me the contrast between the strong man I read on here women wanting with the vulnerable/emotional man I am when I have to give D up to W...it's who/how I am though so...

i've read it's hard for WW's to let go of their LBH when they are such a fantastic father, of course my W hasn't/doesn't see me with D so hard to say that matters in my sitch. for sure I do wear my bond with my D with pride for all the world to see! given all the other pain I'm enduring, D is the light for me!

and yes, D knows for sure that Mommy and Daddy are not together and the worst pain of all is when D says she wants us all back together at "her house". as I've said before and perhaps a big reason for my continued struggle is that it's one thing for me and W to go our separate ways, but the feeling of D losing her family...

I will definitely give her all the hugs and kisses D can handle! You keep doing the same with your little ones!

There are two books on parenting that I absolutely endorse from personal experience - Conscious parenting by Dr. Shefali Tsabary. She has some amazing talks you can find on youtube. The name of the second one escapes me right now but I'll look it up when I am home. Both books completely changed my parenting for the better and reinforced things I was already trying to do.

Also, this is my take - men generally think vulnerability is a weakness. I believe it is a huge strength. The fact that you are vulnerable about your D and drop offs is not something to be ashamed of. You are a loving parent and it shows. I have all the strength and masculinity in the world, but I also don't shy from my vulnerability. This actually makes me even more strong and powerful because I am authentic, and authenticity is the most amazing thing. Be strong by knowing you values, your boundaries, and who you are. Vulnerability is the icing on that cake.

Being able to show emotion is the sign of a strong man. I wish I was better at it.

The other parenting book that changed me is by Ross W. Greene. It is called - Raising Human Beings: Creating a Collaborative Partnership with your Child.

Between Dr. Shefali and Ross W. Greene, you're covered in the parenting arena. And I speak to this from my personal experience. I have implemented different strategies from both books and also reflected on my own personal development as a parent and how I behave and why I did that. It's unlocked so many insights for me that has advanced not on my parenting game, but my life game as well in other relationships.

Maika...thank you for the parenting references, I'll definitely check them out! it's interesting how you talk about vulnerability being a strength. my IC has stressed to me that one of the greatest causes she feels for our MR failing is that W was not able to be vulnerable, to express her needs/fears emotionally/clearly and be open to me. the whole concept was/is completely new to me before IC...she said where W does not have the ability/willingness I clearly do, but heck until she told me I had no idea I did nor what that even meant. while I think I'm very self-aware, within a relationship I've either not been cognizant of things I didn't know much about the effects of self-esteem, vulnerability, etc or I simply didn't factor them in.

Steve...thank you for your comment as well. as I say when thinking of being a strong man's man the kind I hear women want, being emotional about my D or even my sitch makes me feel like I'll be unable to be the strong man a woman wants as to become that would require me to not stay true to myself. the other ironic part is while I am able to express my emotions regarding my D/sitch, within my MR I know my W believed me passive, void of emotion. the truth is that was not the case, I'm just a very even tempered man, it takes alot to get me angry and most annoyances of daily life I simply let them roll off of me. again talking with my IC, she believes my W has severe anxiety...things like an unexpected bill, traffic, the news, upcoming events stress her greatly to the point it impaired her sleep and likely our interaction...whereas for me pretty much nothing bothered me and I'd fall asleep instantly. I can see how that contrast in our personalities likely caused resentment in my W even though she also at times believed I was her counter-balance. while I would always try to emphasize with how she was feeling/help her to resolve the issues causing the anxiety, unless/until I was able to feel the same way as her, I don't believe W thought what I did was ever enough.

I miss her today. I miss her every day. I know we say all sitches aren't unique, but I am curious. in the time we've been apart, we've not once spoken verbally about our sitch. our only communication has been by text/email. maybe 3 times I've gone pursuit, we've texted, she had no interest and I dropped it. IC has said in her exp, men usually don't want to do MC, she has had women come in who simply got angry and fought, but it was very rare for her where the woman did not want to go. IC also told me that in all of her years counseling my MR is the first where a couple has never spoken verbally. Stander has told me in the past that his eW was much like this, but I was reading last night his story and saw that he and his eW did in fact try to recon, but apparently he was past the point of wanting it. this line of thought is not really "I want her to want to recon", but rather at a higher level...in most of the sitches I read even where the WW has a known OM, there at least seems to be at least some kind of verbal communication/meetup between the WW and the LBH especially if there are kids. in my sitch I have no proof of OM/EA/PA, all I can guess is that W's complete lack of talk is because she does have OM. thing is if she does, so what...I mean there's tons of those sitchs on here where there is still verbal communication face to face. like in our sitch...how much worse could it be such that she completely can't even talk to me? I can guess guilt/shame/whatever, but like Sandi once said men can't understand rational women, so likely we aren't even close to understanding a WW...LOL so with that said I don't even pretend to think even my guessing is close. the whole thing just seems weird. IC believes that W needs IC for several issues, maybe that explains it. as I have no experience I take her opinion, but it's hard for me to believe. anyway just curious folks thoughts.

Sending you strenght and patience ballast. Focus on you and your D. It is hard but you must transform all that negative energy into a positive one. Then give all of that to your D. You know, this is a long game. Time will come when you�ll decide if you want to go on playing it.

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W was not able to be vulnerable, to express her needs/fears emotionally/clearly and be open to me.

Okay! So, that's a good insight, however I don't want you take the full blame for that. My W expressed something similar and I looked back and saw that every time she was vulnerable with me, I didn't dismiss her, but tried to problem solve instead of validate. So think back to how you acted when W was vulnerable with you and see what your pattern was.

Also, she has to shoulder some of the blame. Did she actually try and take more risk in trying to reach you? Does she have anxiety and conflict avoidance traits? Most of the time they want to blame the LBS for not being open, but in fact they have not actually been open and directly tried. They beat around the bush and hoping that we'll see between the lines. I don't tolerate such behavior any more. I ask people to be direct with me if I think they're beating around the bush.

At least you have some good insight here to do a 180 on it for your own growth. But don't take all the blame for it. She has to own up to her own behavior and take accountability.

I believe Brene Brown has some amazing stuff on vulnerability and its power. Once I opened up, I realized how amazing and relieving it was to be vulnerable and more authentic with people. It's like a cloud lifted off me. When you do this, you stop living for other people and live for yourself and stop giving a $hit what other people think of you - in a good way, not turning into an a$$hole.

B....it took my ex about 6 months before she started to lower her guard and be more friendly with me. I am almost 1.5 years in and it is true that if she wants to recon it will happen when it is no longer on your radar. She will feel you pulling away and she will realize you are no faking it. She will know that you truely don�t care. I can see now how what everyone has been saying is so true. You also can not accept all the blame.

neffer...appreciate your support. definitely focusing on my D with a ton of positive energy. in truth I'm not in a negative energy spot these days, but confused? yep definitely. just been living the reality of what my post-divorce life would look like. not terrible really, feel like it would be great if W came back around, but if not, it's ok/livable and for now that's enough. I've read/heard it's a long game..at about 5 months seems like it's already been a long game, but I know that's not true. just keeping on moving my life forward with D.

maika...so thinking about it I probably didn't validate her feelings, but rather tried to fix. probably was not the thing she needed from what I gather from other ladies comments, but as I didn't know that...prior to BD I mean I hadn't explored/tried to learn about any of this stuff. there were times where she talked, I listened, complete focus on her, but to her either it went in and out of me or it just didn't translate from her to me. thing is it was never an intentional thing I did and if we were on different pages, we could have consulted someone/anyone to help us address that, but that was never brought up. I can assure you had it been brought up, I would have been right there. I feel like we never discussed specifics, but rather generics. for what was truly important to her I needed something like "H this is very important to me <I expect X>, <I need X>, <I hate X>". as you say I can't read her mind although perhaps that was what she expected. but here again...let's say she said do X by this date and I didn't, there has to be some give and take, forgiveness/acceptance. I don't know if W could allow that. for me honestly I can't recall ever setting due by date or a demand. as I've said I'm very much a roll with it type. I can't say anything about W's ownership of her part. I know she has expressed letting go appearance wise, but that to me is superficial relative to the how she acted in the MR which is way more important. maybe she has, maybe not I just don't know.

joseph...thank you for your comments. as I say I'm at a point of just living/trying to get comfortable with what my possible post-D life will look like. "checking out the place" really it is not all that bad, although it is for now still somewhat reluctantly accepted. whether she knows it or not, I'm not faking my comfort with it these days. feels weird still wearing my ring, no interest in dating/other women at all, but living like I'm D'd. absent W in my life it has proven much easier for myself to take way more blame than I should, but I guess as I move further down the line and recon seems unlikely...I'll be HIGHLY surprised if she comes around...like I am Santa Claus himself if she does. I am keeping the road home smooth though and will continue to stand for my M until it's taken from me. I realize we had problems, I realize I had my faults/contributed to them, I still desire to do anything I can to make a great new MR with her, I believe we had alot of good in our MR...but much is unknown and many choices for both of us lie ahead. guess we'll see what life has in store.

Every marriage has problems, the only difference between them and you is that both parties wanted to work through the issues. Beta male, Alpha male, Type A, Type B I mean it all sounds great but it takes all kinds and at the end of the day we are who we are. Sure we can make small tweaks to ourselves, get yourselves in shape, eat healthier etc. but I don't believe we can change the core of who we are as people. Be more balanced......yes

The failure of your MR is more about her than you....more about her in not wanting to work on it and breaking up your family. I too could have done things differently but that doesn't mean that I would have been still together with my XW. Maybe if I was more of an Alpha male or hardcore Type A I would have walked away from her. See what I mean??

I am a great father, good provider, and a good husband that provided safety and stability for my family. If your W or my XW wants something different, the butterflies, the chase, the limerance, that feeling of excitement it is pretty hard to do after being with someone for a long period of time.

People get D'd all the time that make millions of dollars, and live dream lives. It is what it is and if one person wants out game over.

Hey Ballast, you're on page 11 so time for a new thread!

Originally Posted by ballast

I miss her today. I miss her every day. I know we say all sitches aren't unique, but I am curious. in the time we've been apart, we've not once spoken verbally about our sitch. our only communication has been by text/email. maybe 3 times I've gone pursuit, we've texted, she had no interest and I dropped it. IC has said in her exp, men usually don't want to do MC, she has had women come in who simply got angry and fought, but it was very rare for her where the woman did not want to go. IC also told me that in all of her years counseling my MR is the first where a couple has never spoken verbally. Stander has told me in the past that his eW was much like this, but I was reading last night his story and saw that he and his eW did in fact try to recon, but apparently he was past the point of wanting it.

I think you might be referring to the Retrouvaille thing. We were separated, I think she had already drawn up the D papers (but not filed) and then suddenly out of the blue she emailed me asking if I would be willing to go to Retro. By then I had started seeing another woman although it was pretty casual, like just going out on a date with her here and there. I only mention it because I think it impacted my "investment" in this recon attempt, if it even was one. XW had shown zero interest in reconciling before that, and in fact had told me many times there was no chance of it. So it was very unexpected that she wanted to do this. Anyway we went and it was a very emotional experience. We shared more thoughts and feelings than we had in probably the previous 10 years. I wish I could say it made us fall back in love and we went on to live happily ever after, but obviously that's not what happened (although that is what happens for some couples). After Retro they encourage you to meet every day to continue the exercises that they gave us (it's supposed to be a life-long thing that you never stop doing). There were also followup meetings with the rest of the group. Well with the two of us living apart and both working full time and such, it was very difficult to make the time to do the followups. We did for a while, but I don't think either of us were really trying, we were just going through the motions of the exercises. At some point I just flat-out said to her I didn't think it was changing anything and did she want to bother continuing and she said no.

It was all very confusing and even looking back now I'm still confused. Did XW want to recon? Or did she just do it to check off her list of "things I tried to save the M but that just proved it really was over"? Was I the reason it failed, or was she, or was it both of us? Not that it matters now, but it was just a strange time.

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in my sitch I have no proof of OM/EA/PA, all I can guess is that W's complete lack of talk is because she does have OM. thing is if she does, so what...I mean there's tons of those sitchs on here where there is still verbal communication face to face. like in our sitch...how much worse could it be such that she completely can't even talk to me? I can guess guilt/shame/whatever, but like Sandi once said men can't understand rational women, so likely we aren't even close to understanding a WW...LOL so with that said I don't even pretend to think even my guessing is close. the whole thing just seems weird. IC believes that W needs IC for several issues, maybe that explains it. as I have no experience I take her opinion, but it's hard for me to believe. anyway just curious folks thoughts.

Well, as you said my XW was also one who never talked about the M, why she wanted to end it, what went wrong, etc. So I can relate to your feelings of confusion. I don't have any answers to you, all I can say is after asking myself "why" ten thousand times I finally understood I was never going to get an answer to that and eventually I just quit asking. It may sound silly but you do get to the point of telling yourself "it is what it is", you just accept it and move along.

Please start a new thread. You have reached the 100 posting/reply limit for this thread. Thanks!

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