Hi everyone. I've been reading this forum, and I'm seeing a lot of situations somewhat similar to mine...but I need some advice.
A couple of months ago, my W wanted to talk to me after I got home from work. She said she was moving out. She couldn't handle my depression. The next week she had an apartment. Within two weeks, she had already slept with a coworker. Fast forward to now, it's been at least 3 guys (she confirmed), but the number is likely higher.
It has been absolute hell trying to navigate this. Especially since we have an almost 4 year old son.
But here's where I need advice...
I just finished reading DR, but she found out that I've been reading it (she came over to get a few things and saw the book). Yesterday, she said "you've been sending mixed signals. I'm glad to see you're doing better, but I hope you aren't trying to save this...I hope you've actually come to terms with this being over."
I stayed cool about it. But she's determined to go out and have her fun. Most of the time, our son stays with a sitter while she's at work or out with her friends. I keep him every other weekend and sometimes during the week. I know that she has been going out having her fun, and it honestly kills me because for the last 3 years I've stayed home with our son while she works AND I've never stopped her from hanging out with her friends...except now it's more than just a drink after work.
But since she knows about the book, even though she doesn't know what's in it...how do I keep going forward? It feels like she's just determined to make sure I have no hope.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hide what your doing on the LRT and DB book. She's hiding all kinds of stuff from you. Get strong, get counseling, find who you really are. You're not a depressed person at heart. Go to the gym every day, hang out with friends, make new friends, GAL. Read these forums.
Hi everyone. I've been reading this forum, and I'm seeing a lot of situations somewhat similar to mine...but I need some advice.
A couple of months ago, my W wanted to talk to me after I got home from work. She said she was moving out. She couldn't handle my depression. The next week she had an apartment. Within two weeks, she had already slept with a coworker. Fast forward to now, it's been at least 3 guys (she confirmed), but the number is likely higher.
It has been absolute hell trying to navigate this. Especially since we have an almost 4 year old son.
But here's where I need advice...
I just finished reading DR, but she found out that I've been reading it (she came over to get a few things and saw the book). Yesterday, she said "you've been sending mixed signals. I'm glad to see you're doing better, but I hope you aren't trying to save this...I hope you've actually come to terms with this being over."
I stayed cool about it. But she's determined to go out and have her fun. Most of the time, our son stays with a sitter while she's at work or out with her friends. I keep him every other weekend and sometimes during the week. I know that she has been going out having her fun, and it honestly kills me because for the last 3 years I've stayed home with our son while she works AND I've never stopped her from hanging out with her friends...except now it's more than just a drink after work.
But since she knows about the book, even though she doesn't know what's in it...how do I keep going forward? It feels like she's just determined to make sure I have no hope.
1st: BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS, and only half of what she does. Do not put any stock into her "its over I hope you aren't trying to save it". They all say this. They all make the proclamation that it is over.
2nd: Start reading as much as you can from sandi2. She is a former Wayward Wife. Your W is more than just a WAW, she is a WW. Unlike some WW, your W's nice girl side has to convince herself it is over with you in order to do what she wants to do. And what she wants to do is sleep with other guys. That is just a fact. If that is a bridge too far for you (physical affairs are deal breakers for many people) then file for D. If you want to wait her out and try to save your MR, do it regardless of what she says.
So, read all of the links Cadet sent. Pay attention to sandi's rules. Also, consider using LRT, I think it fits in your sitch. Detach and differentiate. This is a hugely important step. 180 (change any bad behavior's that contributed to your sitch). And start GAL. This is also hugely important. WWs love it when their H's sit home and wait for them to come back, even if they say the opposite.
Finally, be the best you that you can be. She will take note of it even if she doesn't admit.
None of this guarantees anything, but doing what DB says, following advice from sandi, and detaching, 180ing and GAL will be your best chance if R is your goal.
Thank you. I finished reading DR yesterday. I have been reading the articles and posts on here for the last couple of weeks, and in some ways, they seem to be working.
One thing that's making GAL more difficult is that we have a 3 year old S. He's staying with me during the day while she's at work. She actually moved him and herself out a couple of months ago, then immediately began fooling around, bringing OM's around him, etc. While I don't mind helping with our S, it's hard to hear him talk about things that go on at the "new house". Most of my friends are married, have families, or have moved away. Plus being left with massive amounts of bills, having viable ways to GAL is often in short supply.
I think I'm just looking for motivation to keep up the 180, being upbeat, etc. It hits hard when she's says things like that.
A couple of months ago, my W wanted to talk to me after I got home from work. She said she was moving out. She couldn't handle my depression. The next week she had an apartment. Within two weeks, she had already slept with a coworker. Fast forward to now, it's been at least 3 guys (she confirmed), but the number is likely higher.
So in the span of a couple of months she dumped you, moved out and started a sexfest. And this is all because you are depressed? Sorry, I'm not buying her line of BS. You may be depressed but she is rebellious and wayward. First I've got to ask you, why do you want to save this M? You get depressed and not only does she abandon you but she barely waits for the moving truck to depart her new place to start some sexual escapades. Is it because you are you missing your old W? Because she is probably gone and has been replaced by this "girls gone wild" person. She will pursue this lifestyle for many months, maybe a year or more. At some point she'll burn out and she may come back groveling for recon. In the meantime you've got to leave her to it and work on you.
I just finished reading DR, but she found out that I've been reading it (she came over to get a few things and saw the book). Yesterday, she said "you've been sending mixed signals. I'm glad to see you're doing better, but I hope you aren't trying to save this...I hope you've actually come to terms with this being over."
Whenever she asks what you're reading, or makes statements like this, just say "I understand, I am just working on myself right now and this book was recommended by a friend, it's interesting and helping me through this." As far as you tell her, you are working on YOU, not the M.
But she's determined to go out and have her fun. Most of the time, our son stays with a sitter while she's at work or out with her friends. I keep him every other weekend and sometimes during the week. I know that she has been going out having her fun, and it honestly kills me because for the last 3 years I've stayed home with our son while she works AND I've never stopped her from hanging out with her friends...except now it's more than just a drink after work.
OK well you've been very, very beta it sounds like. Beta is OK in a healthy relationship (when balanced with alpha) but it's not what attracts women to men. You've got to get your alpha game back. Get out, GAL. Work out, spruce up your wardrobe, whiten your teeth, get a tan, hang out with MEN. Get your cajones back! I guarantee you once you do she will start looking over her shoulder wondering what she's missing, but you probably won't care by the time she does.
One thing that's making GAL more difficult is that we have a 3 year old S. He's staying with me during the day while she's at work. She actually moved him and herself out a couple of months ago, then immediately began fooling around, bringing OM's around him, etc. While I don't mind helping with our S, it's hard to hear him talk about things that go on at the "new house". Most of my friends are married, have families, or have moved away. Plus being left with massive amounts of bills, having viable ways to GAL is often in short supply.
What do you think GAL is? Going to bars? It is ANYTHING that gets you out of the house! Heck it can even be IN the house. Here are some examples:
- Go to the park
- Join a gym
- Join Meetup (it's free and there are tons of activities)
- Do some volunteer work
- Learn to fly an R/C plane
- Build a model
- Work on a car or motorcycle
- Learn to paint
- Take a clay sculpting class
- Go to a local festival
- Go to car shows
- Run
- Hike
- Go to the zoo
- Rock climb
- Swim
- Ski
- Visit a museum
That is just scratching the surface. The idea is to get you thinking about something other than your W and your M. Bonus points for GAL activities that help you meet new people.
You have a son, well nearly all of us have kids, jobs, commitments but we all found ways to GAL despite that. You'll even see a lot of items on the above list can be done with your son. This is a classic case of "quit making excuses and just do it".
This is all good advice, and I am definitely working on it as much as I can find the time.
As for GAL, the biggest thing I've done...I started my band back up. When we met, I was playing in a hard rock band. After our son was born, that went on the back burner. But in the last two weeks, it's back on. We've got a lot of work to do, but that at least keeps me busy (and gives me a catharsis).
First I've got to ask you, why do you want to save this M? You get depressed and not only does she abandon you but she barely waits for the moving truck to depart her new place to start some sexual escapades. Is it because you are you missing your old W? Because she is probably gone and has been replaced by this "girls gone wild" person.
I want to save this marriage because it's not fair to our son for him to have to deal with long term consequences of her making poor choices. Also...I meant my vows 100%. And despite all of this...yes, I still deeply care about her.
Where I'm running into problems disconnecting is our son. He spends more time with babysitters than he does with her. So I step in and let him stay with me so he can have some kind of stability.
The divorce is pending. I realize that I don't have to help her at all (in fact, it might be better if I didn't), however my son deserves better than that, and if she won't be stable, then I feel that I must.
She's had her own depression issues since he was born (probably much longer, but she was good at hiding them), and so that in combination with mine "wore her down".
Granted, she did state she wasn't happy and she wanted me to get help a couple years ago...and I did...sort of. I started seeing a doctor, got diagnosed, and started taking meds that really made it even harder to function.
Eventually, she said she was done.
I'm definitely working out. I'm definitely working on myself.
And there are little signs that she's been softening.
But it's not enough for me to feel like it's going to work...yet. I'm willing to give it time, and I'm going to work on being the most bad455 me that I can be...for me.
I just really, really hope it works.
As for GAL, the biggest thing I've done...I started my band back up. When we met, I was playing in a hard rock band. After our son was born, that went on the back burner. But in the last two weeks, it's back on. We've got a lot of work to do, but that at least keeps me busy (and gives me a catharsis)
.
Great, that's an awesome GAL start!
I want to save this marriage because it's not fair to our son for him to have to deal with long term consequences of her making poor choices.
Well that sounds like a reason to pursue divorce, not marriage. Only divorce will remove you and your S from her poor choices (because you have NO CONTROL over her, she will continue to make her bad choices whether you are married or not). I am not suggesting you pursue D, I'm just asking "why do you want to save your marriage" because it's important for you to understand your motivations.
She's had her own depression issues since he was born (probably much longer, but she was good at hiding them), and so that in combination with mine "wore her down".
Again, I'm not buying it. If she told you that and then moved out and was still being responsible with your son and avoiding dating for a while then I would believe it, but when a woman moves out and immediately has sex with multiple partners and quits taking care of her kid then there is something wrong with her.
I'll admit, it's kind of strange. But that's really pretty much how it all went down.
My concern isn't that she's a bad mom. It's that she doesn't have the backbone to really, really fight through hard things. Last night she was having trouble with him at bedtime (he lives with her). She wanted to bring him to me, drop him off, and leave so I could deal with it.
We had a huge argument about it. I have ADHD. Our son also has very many of the symptoms, and recently a doctor said he's got it as well. One of the symptoms is difficulty getting to sleep.
So I basically put my foot down and told her that her excuse for leaving me was my depression (a major side effect of ADHD) and she's basically doing the same thing to him.
After I finished telling her what I thought...her tone changed.
She brought me breakfast this morning.
I'm skeptical. But any softening is better than none as long as I don't mess this all up.
I'm keeping my son all weekend. That always makes me anxious because she has a lot of free time when she's not working. BUT...I'm doing everything I can to just not think about it. So...we'll see.
Just an update, I'm going with her tomorrow to take our son to the doctor. It's going to be a long day.
She's supposedly getting a new car tomorrow, too. I'm not sure if her mom is helping her out or some OM. Either way, I'm not really sure what the right stance for all of this is.
Part of me wants to counter-file for at-fault rather than go through the no-fault petition she's already filed, since she's been involved with at least 3 OM in the past 2.5 months.
There's way too much anxiety in my life. Heh.
I'm still trying to stick to the DB plan, but it's really hard sometimes.
There's a part of me that feels like I should stop helping her completely...but the only way I'm really helping her now is watching our son every other weekend. Who knows what she's doing when I have him. It's just too stressful to think about.
I'm considering going almost completely NC actually. One of the things that are making me think is this quote from one of Sandi2's posts:
The LBH should stop being her errand boy, babysitter, cook and housekeeper, etc., trying to "help" lighten her burden, thinking he is doing 180's that are working. Hey, those actions may be 180's from his norm, but they are not the type of 180's that are effective with a wayward! This is another major difference in a WAW and wayward wife. Those acts of kindness, let's say, might be appreciated by a WAW who is not involved in wayward activity or has a wayward heart. Not so, with a wayward! I hope to get that message across about effective 180's from the betrayed H.
Lately, I've been keeping our son every other weekend (unless we have to shuffle it around for some reason).
He's with me now. Next weekend, she's taking him out of town for the weekend. The next weekend (mine), her dad is going to take him (he set that up himself), but then the following weekend she wants to switch it back so that I have him again.
Her mother helped her get her new apartment, and likely a new car this week.
They keep enabling her to have this life...without thinking about whether it's right for our son or not.
I'm really debating telling her that I will ONLY keep him while she works on the weekends...no other time.
I hate doing that. I love my son. But something needs to change, and I'm not okay with enabling her to keep her multiple OM and randos having access.
This is the hardest decision I've had to make, and I would appreciate any advice I can get. Probably going to have this talk with her tonight.
Blackmac, bad move. You should have your son as much and as often as you possibly can. Plus her having won't stop het from seeing OM. She'll find someone to watch him or het with OM with him. Don't use your son to try to control het like that.
That's what I needed to hear Steve85. Thank you.
Hi Blakmac, I just caught up on your thread and sorry to see your WW acting like a GGW.
Just by the looks of that particular piece of advice you read from one of my posts, sounds like I was speaking to a H who might have been still living under the same roof as his WW. I give similar advice whenever the WW moves out. She will take advantage and ask her H to help with installing something, fixing anything & everything from her car to repairing something in her apartment. She thinks nothing of asking for his physical help......and/or more. For instance, she may be having a particularly low day and call him. She wants him to lift her spirits by telling her what a terrific person she is and how things will get better in her new life without him.
Whenever she has physically separated and she is wanting you to do things to help her (similar to the examples in the previous paragraph), you can tell her you are not available or she'll have to look for services in the yellow pages........or just say "no". However, let me stress something here. Choosing to not keep your son whenever it would be "your weekend", or any other time you thought she might be involved with some of her GGW activity......only hurts you....not her.. It is not your job to punish her. It is not your job to control what she does. In fact, you couldn't control her if she lived with you. Trying to force her to keep her child when she is not working, is clearly a control issue in you. I understand, b/c I used to have some control issues myself. In the end, the person who loses is you, b/c it won't change her. She is not going to live the way you want. You miss out time with your son, and he grows up not having enough time with his father. So, you can be unavailable for her in the other ways, but you need to be available for your child, as much as possible.
If there was anything I wish I could teach, it would be "how to let it go". When you learn how to let go of these things you can't control......it will free you. You aren't responsible for your WW. You can't force her to love you, or to live like a respectable woman. If you won't keep your son, she'll get someone else. I suggest you start working to let it go. Don't let go of your son, but let go of all this stuff she is doing in her life. Let go of things you can't control. Focus on what you
do control.......and what you can change.
I hate doing that. I love my son. But something needs to change, and I'm not okay with enabling her to keep her multiple OM and randos having access.
Keeping your son is not "enabling" her to have multiple OM. Who is more important, your W or your child? Who is helpless here? Who is your responsibility? It's your child. You can't use him to control your W's behavior or activities. Another thing you can't control is who she decides to introduce to your son. That is very, very tough on the LBS. Unless you can prove the child was not safe, or harmed in some way........I don't think you can prevent her allowing others to come around him. However, you can do a check to see if any of her OM (if you know the name) are a registered child molester.
I am so sorry for the pain it causes you.
Sandi2, thank you so much for your response.
I am working on letting go. I've come a long way, mostly because the hits just keep coming.
On top of that, I have ADHD, so emotional reactions tend to be far more intense. It can be unbearable at times. I just try to think of all of the possible ways I can navigate a situation, then I talk myself out of most of them. It's crazy. I also tend to throw ideas out not knowing how they sound outside of my head, which is why I'm really thankful to have found this forum.
I'm still working on keeping myself in check. It's taking a lot more effort than I thought it would, honestly. Especially knowing our son is being affected by all of this.
Thank you all.
Progress report...I have no idea how this is going.
I got laid off from my job today. She found out and texted me to see if I was ok, and asked me to stop by her work and see her.
So I did.
I dressed up, was positive and upbeat...and her conclusion is that I'm doing the things she needed me to do for years...and I'm clearly better off without her.
I'm actually better off without the medications that were keeping me messed up inside.
She's not seeing that part of the equation. That's the hard part. I believe she's still trying to justify leaving, which from what I understand is just part of the script.
It's hard to tell exactly what's going on. I'm hoping that there are positive changes coming...but I really don't know. It's really difficult to navigate this.
Does anyone have any experience with that? Should I stay the course? Give up?
I don't want to give up. I'm making myself better. I'm doing the things I need to do to make sure I'm okay.
I can't tell if it's a speed bump or a brick wall.
Status report part two...
She came over for a while and brought our son. We talked about the job thing some more, the issues I have...and then I asked one of the questions from DR...what would be the first sign that we have a shot? What would be something that needs to change?
And. I. Got. An. Answer!!!
She said that we don't have a love problem...we both love each other...but the thing she would have to see is that when we are angry, we still respect each other. We don't lash out and try to tear each other down.
We both admitted that yes, things are broken, but the fact that I got an honest answer in the first place is just...amazing!
She needs to feel respected, even if I'm angry at her. And she also said she needs to feel that way towards me.
Only one of those factors are in my control...how I handle my anger towards her.
Now I have a path.
I'm actually better off without the medications that were keeping me messed up inside
Is this medication for the ADHD? I hope you will consult with the doctor before you just stop taking any medication. If that one keeps you messed up, maybe a different one would help you feel more normal.
She's not seeing that part of the equation. That's the hard part. I believe she's still trying to justify leaving, which from what I understand is just part of the script.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling you told her about ending the meds, hoping it would sway her to reconsider the M.
Does anyone have any experience with that? Should I stay the course? Give up?
Based on the fact she didn't think your meds played a part in the breakdown of your MR?
You have to do what is best for your health and happiness.....whether or not it gets your W back.
She said that we don't have a love problem...we both love each other...but the thing she would have to see is that when we are angry, we still respect each other. We don't lash out and try to tear each other down.
We both admitted that yes, things are broken, but the fact that I got an honest answer in the first place is just...amazing!
She needs to feel respected, even if I'm angry at her. And she also said she needs to feel that way towards me.
Only one of those factors are in my control...how I handle my anger towards her.
How you handle your anger towards her probably played a big part of the breakdown in the MR. It is not the only issue that currently exsits. You failed to mention her Girl Gone Wild behavior. I am concerned how you take on the project of finding the right formula to use in pleasing or persuading your WW to give you another chance. Like many guys, all you can focus on is just getting her back again.
If you have anger issues, then take anger management. Take a course in how to fight fairly, or keeping respectable communication. It's going to be difficult to show a lot of respect for her when she is not demonstrating very respectable standards in her life. I'm just saying that it's not just your side of the street that needs cleaning. However, I do agree that this part is up to you.
Make your decisions based on what you want and what is best for you and son. Don't fall into the trap of trying to convince her you are good enough for her to consider reconciling. Only consistent actions and time can do that job.
Status report part two...
She came over for a while and brought our son. We talked about the job thing some more, the issues I have...and then I asked one of the questions from DR...what would be the first sign that we have a shot? What would be something that needs to change?
And. I. Got. An. Answer!!!
She said that we don't have a love problem...we both love each other...but the thing she would have to see is that when we are angry, we still respect each other. We don't lash out and try to tear each other down.
We both admitted that yes, things are broken, but the fact that I got an honest answer in the first place is just...amazing!
She needs to feel respected, even if I'm angry at her. And she also said she needs to feel that way towards me.
Only one of those factors are in my control...how I handle my anger towards her.
Now I have a path.
Based on her answer I'd get into MC immediately. If she won't go then go without her. It seems that anger management is the key to turning your MR around. MC or IC can help you with that.
Is this medication for the ADHD?
Yes. The main reason that I stopped the medication was because of the nearly non-stop panic attacks that I was having. Being off of the medication has been a really great thing as far as reducing them. I have an appointment on the 29th. If I can make it to the appointment (money has been a major issue lately), then I'm going to talk to the doctor about perhaps a lower dosage to help with focus, but not a top-end dose.
If you have anger issues, then take anger management. Take a course in how to fight fairly, or keeping respectable communication. It's going to be difficult to show a lot of respect for her when she is not demonstrating very respectable standards in her life. I'm just saying that it's not just your side of the street that needs cleaning. However, I do agree that this part is up to you.
Well said. I don't really have anger issues, at least none that I can see. When I do argue back, I tend to leave out the sugary coating and just deliver facts. One of the problems is that it feels like either way, sugar coated or not, she feels that if I'm disagreeing that I'm actually arguing. I'm learning to just listen, disagree, but not necessarily try to "win" the argument. That seems to be helping except in some rare instances.
Based on her answer I'd get into MC immediately. If she won't go then go without her.
I've had one counseling appointment so far that I've been to. I set up a followup, but didn't have the money to go to it. I found another therapist, and followed their instructions for setting up a session, but I didn't get a call back to set one up...even after I tried to call them again.
Part of the problem that I'm currently running into is that it takes money to set up appointments. I still have insurance for a couple of weeks...but nothing left after bills to cover the copays. Essentially, she paid off everything in her name before she moved out, and I'm having to swing everything in my name...whether it's a bill that we both have used or not. Considering that, I've had to stop paying a lot of bills just to cover expenses like debts, and start prioritizing rent, car note, utilities, and internet (I could cut this out, but it really wouldn't make that big of a dent...plus I'm going to need it to find a new job. I know there are free options, but my laptop doesn't work if it's not plugged in...it's a crazy situation).
Right now, it just feels like literally everything is stacked against me. I feel like I'm doing what I can, but I keep discouraging myself.
I really want my S to have a functioning, together family. Neither my W nor I ever had that. And I'm willing to do whatever it takes...it's just being able to do those things that is proving to be difficult.
I really wish that there were free MC options. I would jump on that opportunity.
Also...I have a really hard time putting together whole thoughts sometimes (it's the ADHD thing). I'm a lot better answering specific questions than I am trying to write out thoughts and fill in blanks...sorry.
I really appreciate the feedback Sandi2 and Steve85. I want to work through this so much...any advice yall have on navigating this mess is greatly appreciated.
She stopped by again today for a little while. I got to hang out with my son for a bit, then they had to leave. I helped her carry some of her stuff down to the car, got him loaded up, and then...she gave be a big hug. Then she squeezed tighter.
I really hope this stuff is working. It seems that it could be doing something good.
I know I'm going to be a better person either way this turns out.
But she seems at least a bit more willing to see me now.
Yes that is a good sign, but remember, it she will rebel against these new feelings at some point. WAWs don't change to go back on their D proclamation easily. She will be conflicted inside and lash out at you likely. Just stay the course. You are the lighthouse, standing firmly in place no matter whether the seas are calm or stormy!
She stopped by just now for a second to pick up a couple of things for a trip out of town. She was nice, I was nice, and for the few minutes she was here, I was doing fine.
She smiled a big, awkward smile. She just said she was happy that I'm doing good.
She left. Then I went back upstairs and just lost it. I'm still losing it.
It's really difficult to keep up the energy needed to be okay around her. And when she leaves, I just feel empty.
How do yall keep this up? This is exhausting. I believe it's worth it, but the back and forth between being a self-directed grown adult man and being an empty shell of a human is really, really exhausting.
DBing is hard. No question. And you did the right thing by not showing your emotions until she was gone.
The answer your question is you keep it up as long as you want to. It is always in your power to stop at anytime. No one can force you to DB, and it won't work unless you want to keep doing it. One of sandi's rules is to never give up. And the proof is in the pudding that if you DB long enough, unless your MR was a sham to begin with, eventually your WAS will come around. But most people through DBing end up not caring to save their MR any longer and initiate the D themselves.
Whether you keep trying or not is completely in your power to control.
I am going to keep trying.
It's easy for me to get really down, up, down, up, and back down. It's part of the ADHD thing. And it really, really [censored].
She's already initiated the D, but she hasn't really been talking about it lately. I think it confuses me that she's happy to see what she thinks is me doing well. I can't tell if it's reinforcing her beliefs or mine...and it's just...confusing.
I'm going to keep going with this. I know that there's been small amounts of progress, but I also know that so far it hasn't really appeared to make a huge impact. But changes that are worth making are the ones that take time and effort.
I'm just tired. But I'm going to try to keep pushing forward. My son and I (and even she) deserve a happy family. I just hope that one day we can get back to being that.
Small changes have the biggest impact.
Trying to stay positive.
So yesterday I went out of town overnight to see some friends. She called me (knowing I was out of town) like five times to ask a random question. She asked if I was having fun...
It's almost like she's trying to figure out what kind of GAL I've got going on. Heh.
It's kind of funny. And kind of...I dunno...should I be happy that she's starting to wonder about my "independence"?
It's almost like she's trying to figure out what kind of GAL I've got going on
Yep, I garantee it.
It's kind of funny. And kind of...I dunno...should I be happy that she's starting to wonder about my "independence"?
If you are smart, you won't give her the answers she wants. Stop responding. You are too busy having fun.......remember.
I definitely didn't. Heh. All she knew was I was out of town seeing friends. When she asked "are you having fun?" my answer was "well, I would be, but I'm on the phone...".
I feel like that was harsh, and I really wasn't trying to be rude to her, but I think she got it. She went "...oh...".
It was mildly humorous, but I do kinda feel bad about saying that. I'm not usually one to say stuff like that to her.
But then...considering everything...it kinda felt good. Heh.
Don't worry about it, and for goodness sake....don't apologize for it.
I need to get better about that "apologizing" thing. I tend to be overly apologetic.
Of course, I don't think it's bad to apologize when I do something I feel is wrong. But I definitely need to apologize less.
I tend to worry about hurting feelings. Even if I shouldn't care.
I found out that lately she's been taking our son to the sitter and asking the sitter (who is my neighbor) if I'm "handling everything okay". Of course the sitter tells her that "given the circumstances, it seems that he is".
I don't know if that's good or bad, honestly. She seems to be more concerned about me lately, but I can't tell if she just wants me to be okay or if she's REALLY concerned about my well-being.
She's out of town for a couple more days. I really don't know what to make of everything. It seems like it's starting to change for the positive...but I can't tell for sure. I know it takes time.
In the meantime, I'm trying to have fun on a negative budget. Heh. BUT...at least I've made a few new friends, and overall I've been happier a bit lately. Not completely, of course. I still have my breakdowns.
The other day, before she left town, she stopped by a second time...after I had broken down. She asked if I was okay. I had been fine earlier that morning, I just told her I was having a rough day. I tried not to go into detail.
She hugged me and said she has those days, too.
I don't know. I'm going to keep the positivity going as much as I can. She just kinda caught me at a bad time. Heh.
Sandi,
I read your first posts. And some of your recent ones along with your rules. It seems you have come a long long way. Im wondering if you could chime in on my situation if or when you have time.
A week ago I was ready to give up after a year separation. I have tried so hard and everything just made it worse. I have had physical symptoms from emotional stress months ago. But I was giving and convincing etc. Now I am focusing on giving to myself and my daughter.
I do love my W and am very attracted to her, we had great sexual chemistry. Im also a good looking guy and successful. Other woman think Im crazy to still be trying. But I feel how I feel and I cant stand the thought of seeing my 3 year old daughter only half the time.
I am trying to get the respect and attraction back from my WOW. I have been too nice and too giving. She doesnt work and is trying to get out of a bad living situation she has a toxic relationship with her mom where she lives now and they cant communicate well.
I told her I would get her a rental property and help her since she needs money and I make solid income. We have both had other partners and it got serious at times but have both stopped and are working on ourselves. Not sure if she is telling me the truth Im trying not to care. I have cut communication down 95 percent by text. IF or when you have the time if you could read over my posts I'd really appreciate it. I am very analytical and smart and have done what I think should work instead of what actually does. Im also impatient and trying to work on that.
Thanks again for everyones time who is more experienced here. Ive been with my W since I was 24 and now 33. So Im still learning A LOT about relationships, emotional intelligence, marriage. I would do almost anything to get my W back to the woman she was in the M but she is like a different person almost all the time. Trying to focus on GOL and 180s reading and learning being a dad and running business.
Thanks again!
Why in Gods name are you willing to pay for your Ws new place? She left you, dude. You arent good enough to be her husband, but youre good enough to pay her bills?... Dont let yourself be used. She walks out on you and you still front the bills? She has no respect for you. Good enough to ask money from, but not good enough to try the make the marriage work. Do not fall for this BS, man. You are better than that...
The above post was directed to Did. Sorry for any confusion. Shouldve used the quote feature...
I agree with mtb, you should not be paying for her apartment. I understand you love her and you want what's best for her and that she has a toxic relationship with her Mom. However. The relationship she has with her mother is not your concern. She is an adult woman who is choosing to move away from her M and there are consequences that come with that decision. It is not your job to save her from those consequences, in fact, it's quite the opposite. She needs to feel those consequences so that she can get a full understanding of what her decisions entail. Stop paying. And if you can't do that out of respect for yourself, do it out of love for her. She needs to make it or fail all on her own because this is her choice. You're a good person and if you go back on your agreement to pay for her place, she's going to make you feel like a bad person. Because you DID tell her you would, perhaps you can tell her you're willing to do it for 90 days so she can get a job and get on her feet. And I would only suggest doing this simply because you already agreed, not because I think you owe her ANYthing. What do you think of giving her 90 days?
Of course, I don't think it's bad to apologize when I do something I feel is wrong. But I definitely need to apologize less.
An apology, for some men with NGS, is their go-to tool to fix whatever may be wrong with the W at that moment. If she's upset, he thinks he must have unknowly done something to upset her. Even if she won't tell him, he sees apologizing as a way of making her feel better. It becomes a pattern in their relationship. All she has to do is give him the cold shoulder, and he'll start apologizing.
The W will use this method to manipulate him, and it keeps him in a submissive position. He's trying to get in the good graces of his W, and she's holding him at arms length. This is unattractive and she'll lose her desire for him, as this becomes a big part of the dynamics in the MR.
I found out that lately she's been taking our son to the sitter and asking the sitter (who is my neighbor) if I'm "handling everything okay". Of course the sitter tells her that "given the circumstances, it seems that he is".
I don't know if that's good or bad, honestly. She seems to be more concerned about me lately, but I can't tell if she just wants me to be okay or if she's REALLY concerned about my well-being.
Are you saying you want her to think you are falling apart? Do you see it drawing her back? If she came back out of concern for your well-being, she would not be attracted to you as a man. She needs to admire you and see you strong & independent, instead of co-dependent and crippled.
The other day, before she left town, she stopped by a second time...after I had broken down. She asked if I was okay. I had been fine earlier that morning, I just told her I was having a rough day. I tried not to go into detail.
You absolutely must not break down in front of her, or the neighbor, or any of her friends. Do your crying in private.
A man should never want his W to return to him out of concern, pity, guilt, or shame.
In the meantime, I'm trying to have fun on a negative budget. Heh. BUT...at least I've made a few new friends, and overall I've been happier a bit lately.
That's great! At least you are putting forth the effort. Based on reports from other LBS, when they GAL for real, they started feeling much better about themselves as individuals. I think it progress in your personal life.
Are you saying you want her to think you are falling apart? Do you see it drawing her back? If she came back out of concern for your well-being, she would not be attracted to you as a man. She needs to admire you and see you strong & independent, instead of co-dependent and crippled.
Absolutely not. But I'm concerned that if other people are giving her information rather than getting it straight from me, it could skew the progress that I've been trying to make.
You absolutely must not break down in front of her, or the neighbor, or any of her friends. Do your crying in private.
I didn't, I had broken down between her visits that day. One thing that makes it harder is that with ADHD, there are issues with emotional regulation. The emotions work kinda the same, but can hit way, way harder than most people. There's not a lot of "control" that can be had over it, but I have been doing better with this, and as soon as I can get back in to see the doctor, I'm going to try to get it addressed.
A man should never want his W to return to him out of concern, pity, guilt, or shame.
I don't. I want her to want to be with me, love me, and respect me as a person. I want her to CHOOSE to be with me.
Yesterday, I noticed something that I've noticed before, but tended to write off...when she's tired, she's grumpy.
She picked our son up, and I tried to mention something about ADHD that I thought would help her with him, but she got really stand-offish and sarcastic about it.
Basically, our son's psychologist said he's got ADHD. So do I, so I can recognize his symptoms. So do my older two kids, my brother, and so I do a LOT of research on it. She decided that she didn't want to hear it, so she chose to (at least in the conversation) believe that he's got autism...which he pretty much has none of the symptoms for (except those that overlap ADHD).
Basically, just to shut me up.
I'm starting to think (which my doctor pointed out when she went for me to get diagnosed), that she has it, too.
Of course, I hope she's thinking about it and taking it seriously. It doesn't give her a pass...but it DOES make me understand the behavior more if that's the case.
I dunno. She maintains to her friends that she never wants to come back. But I think she's going to have a LOT of thinking to do. And I'm starting to think that she's going to end up being diagnosed with ADHD at some point...and if so, then that may shift things even more...whether for the positive or negative, I don't know.
Fingers crossed.
Yesterday, I noticed something that I've noticed before, but tended to write off...when she's tired, she's grumpy.
No trying to be snarky here, but, isn't that 99.9% of people?!
Well, yeah. It is. Heh.
Grumpy wasn't the right way to describe it...more like she has a hair trigger and opens the venom floodgates.
Grumpiness is one thing. Extreme anger and lashing out is a different thing.
So, just talked to her. She was not in a great mood...and my emotions kind of got the better of me.
She mentioned that our son is with her 95% of the time, to which I responded that it wasn't true because he's always at sitters when she's either working or (doing other things that have made me bitter, to which she was offended that I'm bitter about her sex life...).
I told her I didn't care what she was doing, because it doesn't really matter.
Our son has a psychologist appointment Monday. She does not want me present (even though they recommend that we both be present). Why? Because she doesn't feel comfortable talking to me.
I told her I could drive myself to the appointment so we didn't have to ride in the same car. She said she still didn't want me there, and asked if I thought I was being respectful of her by saying I could show up anyway...I said "it's disrespectful to ask me not to attend my son's doctor's appointment".
Anyway, we tried to calm it down. Or at least, I did. She maintained that we "can't talk right now" and she indicated that in the future...maybe we could.
So I asked if she would be open to a counseling session together.
She said "I am not open to it at this time. I have too much going on between now and when school starts. But maybe when it slows down, maybe."
At least that's not a "no".
She still hasn't mentioned the divorce.
It almost seems to me that she's doing her own version of "taking a break" from the relationship. And yes. I'm very, very bitter about her sex life. I do try to keep my mouth shut, and stay positive, but sometimes it's really difficult.
What I'm wondering is this...is it possible that as a WW she is just "taking a break" but doing it the hard (for me) way? Does it sound like she's maaaaaybe considering trying to R at some point?
I didn't ask her to R. I only mentioned MC to get to where we could talk without as much risk of fighting.
At least she seems to be willing to consider it, but not when I'm ready...but when she's ready.
"What I'm wondering is this...is it possible that as a WW she is just "taking a break" but doing it the hard (for me) way? Does it sound like she's maaaaaybe considering trying to R at some point?"
NO! And stop framing everything she says and does in terms of a potential R in the future, it will drive you to the brink of insanity.
First, go to the to appointment Monday. It is for your SON not for her. If she is uncomfortable she can leave. DO not let her dictate your role of being a father to her.
blackmac, you have to act as if she is already gone. Let her go. Everything you posted above is all pressure and pursuit. SHe doesn't want you at your S's psychology appointment but you think she was open to counseling with you?!?! Come on man. You are blowing this. You need to back off.
"At least she seems to be willing to consider it, but not when I'm ready...but when she's ready."
HUH?!? Believe NOTHING, NADA, ZIP that she says. Believe only half, if even that, of what she does!
WWs will lie, cheat, deny, make things up, and do whatever they need to in order to justify their actions, appease their LBHs, and try to make themselves feel better about what they are doing. Their feelings change from minute to minute. They will contradict themselves and reverse course in a moments notice.
You are still way tooooooo attached. Detach. What are you doing to GAL? I see nothing in your update around GAL. You are making your worst fear (D) come true.
On D, quit over analyzing her lack of moving forward or discussing D. WWs are NOTORIOUSLY lazy about D. They will wait their LBHs out until he gets tired of waiting and putting up with her crap, and then he goes and files for D himself. So yeah, she isn't mentioning it or moving forward because she wants you to do it for her.
Sorry for the 2x4s, but reread your last update in terms of the DBing links Cadet provides to all new posters and to MWD's DB/DR books. You are so afar from the DBing field it isn't even funny. You need to grow a pair and start acting like an alpha or you will be crying all the way to divorce court.
First, go to the to appointment Monday. It is for your SON not for her. If she is uncomfortable she can leave. DO not let her dictate your role of being a father to her.
Well, the appointment is 1.5 hours away, and she kinda left me financially screwed, and then I got laid off from work. So the options are 1) carpool (specifically what she doesn't want to do) or 2) take separate cars (which still puts her sitting in the office with me).
You are still way tooooooo attached. Detach. What are you doing to GAL? I see nothing in your update around GAL. You are making your worst fear (D) come true.
Yeah. I know. I have been trying. Honestly, the more I try to detach, the more I feel like I'm abandoning her...and I know that's not the actuality. Band hasn't had time to practice, and I don't have money to actually DO much of anything at all right now. I've made some new friends, and to be honest, I feel like hanging out with certain people (in particular, female friends) doesn't really stand up to the ethics test (me being angry about her and her dudes).
On D, quit over analyzing her lack of moving forward or discussing D. WWs are NOTORIOUSLY lazy about D. They will wait their LBHs out until he gets tired of waiting and putting up with her crap, and then he goes and files for D himself. So yeah, she isn't mentioning it or moving forward because she wants you to do it for her.
That actually makes sense. I wondered if either she was being honest about it or if she was stalling until I've "moved on". I can't really tell which one is going on. I'm assuming the latter.
Sorry for the 2x4s, but reread your last update in terms of the DBing links Cadet provides to all new posters and to MWD's DB/DR books. You are so afar from the DBing field it isn't even funny. You need to grow a pair and start acting like an alpha or you will be crying all the way to divorce court.
First, I appreciate the blunt honesty. I truly do.
Second, as someone with issues with working memory, emotional dysregulation, and time management, I'm literally using all of my energy JUST to keep from breaking down in tears.
That doesn't make me less "alpha". I have emotions, and I have a medical reason that they are more extreme.
I have been trying to steer things in more positive directions. To a point, they seem to have been working. Lately, less so. So now, I've got to get back on track.
Yes, I'm hoping for R. Yes, I want to be okay either way. Yes, I'm doing as much as I can to GAL. And yes, I need to get back on medication for my ADHD (all the stuff I mentioned are symptoms). But until I CAN do that, I have to wade through some seriously hard to swallow BS. I am still working out. I'm still trying to take care of myself. And yeah. It all still hurts.
So do you have any specifics of something I can use to help get this on track with all of this other stuff going on?
I guess I'm confused.
I'm supposed to be polite, respectful, and positive, and simultaneously give no @#$^& about what she's doing?
It enrages me. She literally threw away our M so that she could go nuts and she's out randomly hooking up with guys FREQUENTLY.
Meanwhile, I'm alone, broke, and hurt ON TOP OF having a disorder that LITERALLY amplifies emotions.
And when I put my foot down about anything, she runs harder for the D. But if I don't, and I let her walk all over me, she wants ME to give up on her
Where's the balance? That's what I need help finding.
Blacmac,
Are you working with an IC? It really sounds like you could use that sort of help. This is an extremely tough situation and it is clear how emotional you are, even through the filter of the internet.
Read the detachment thread. Print it out. Highlight what applies to you. It is the most important thing you can do for yourself right now.
Hang in there. This [censored]. We all know because we are living it or have lived it in the past. You can do it.
You are trying to make sense of the senseless. You are trying to find logic in the illogical. You are trying find order in disorder. WWs can't even explain their actions. When I discovered my wife sending messages on a dating site to men 15-20 years her junior, and confronted her asking her why, her answer was in exasperation: "I don't know what I am doing!"
If you were to sit her down and get a straight answer that is likely what she would tell you: "I have no idea what I am doing!" She is running on feelings nothing more.
As to this question: "So do you have any specifics of something I can use to help get this on track with all of this other stuff going on?"
Look we all have our unique circumstances. The answer is that you just have to do it. You will always find reasons that it is too difficult, or excuses as to why you can't or won't try. Those are just that: excuses. So cut the excuses and get out there and stay busy. It doesn't cost anything to go on a walk or a run. It doesn't cost much to go visit friends or have friends over. And forget female friends right now, you need to surround yourself with male friends. Join a men's group if there are those in your area. Start going to church. Do all those things you have been meaning to but have put off because you were "too busy" (when you really weren't).
Dig down deep and figure it out, you are an intelligent person, I can tell from your writing, Use that intellect. Get out there and find another job. Be the best blackmac you can be not to try to R with a cheating wayward wife, but because it will be the best thing you can do for you and your son.
Are you working with an IC? It really sounds like you could use that sort of help. This is an extremely tough situation and it is clear how emotional you are, even through the filter of the internet.
I had one session. Bottom line is that I just can't afford it. Once I can, I plan to start up again.
Be the best blackmac you can be not to try to R with a cheating wayward wife, but because it will be the best thing you can do for you and your son.
Thank you. I needed that reminder.
Sorry, everyone, I'm just not really in a good place right now.
I think sometimes I just need a place to vent. Okay...a lot. Heh.
Yes, you're right, I'm trying to make order out of chaos. That's how my mind works anyway. Heh. And yes...I'm digging through darkness looking for hope, because this is the worst thing I think I've ever been through (my first divorce was emotional, but not like this).
This weekend, I was supposed to keep my son. Her dad wanted to keep him, so she agreed to that...then contacted me to see if it was okay. There's no right response to that...either I'm a bad guy for keeping my own son, or I'm a bad guy for being okay with it.
Last weekend, they went to the beach. This weekend, he's going to her dad's out of town. Next weekend, he's supposed to be with me (even though it would be her weekend...unless she switches it around). The weekend after that? Father's day. He'll be with her mom out of town...except Sunday morning (she comes to town anyway and takes him to church)...so MAYBE after noon I'll get to spend a couple of hours with my son.
There's not a final decree...that's still a way off. So this whole "moms/dads weekend" isn't even really a thing (except I DO love spending time with him) but she expects me to pretty much stick with whatever pattern she wants.
Monday through Friday, he's at a sitter while she works. Then every weekend, he's with either me, her mom, or her dad. And she has the audacity to say he's with her 95% of the time?
Sorry. I'm venting. This is really hard to navigate for anyone, especially someone with my medical issues.
The bottom line is that I pretty much don't even have a support system here. It's only mutual friends who are truly neutral, or people that live hours away. So I hold on to a LOT of emotional stuff. I do plan to go to IC, but it's just going to take time for me to be able to do that.
Fun fact: I've ALMOST hit my deductible...but since I got laid off, that's pretty much done. Heh.
I appreciate all of the support, I truly do. Even if I sound like I'm arguing...I'm just trying to work all of this stuff out in my head.
Steve85, I think you're right...I'm not sure she really knows why. I think she has an assortment of reasons that she pulls out of her hat based on who she's talking to...because she has the story she told me, the one she told her mom, the one she told our mutual friends, and the one she tells her own friends. They're all different.
What [censored] is that I'm the one that has to suffer for her decisions. It's exhausting, to say the least.
There's not a final decree...that's still a way off. So this whole "moms/dads weekend" isn't even really a thing (except I DO love spending time with him) but she expects me to pretty much stick with whatever pattern she wants.
Same here man, even though we just got a temporary court ordered schedule WW was trying to get me to pickup on days she has work.
They will always want a little more. Give an inch they take a mile.
The expectation of subservience is ludicrous.
Well if she didn't want a court ordered child schedule perhaps she should have kept her legs closed, eh?
blackmac: "This weekend is my weekend with S. If your dad wants him why not take him the following which is your weekend?"
My opinion is, ANY time you can be with your kid, take it. Who cares if it's Mom's day, Dad's day or fricken President's day. If your wife notices you'll always get the kid(s) when SHE wants you to....guess who else will eventually notice? Your kid. And they will know they can depend on you NO MATTER WHAT and that is worth anything.
blackmac: "This weekend is my weekend with S. If your dad wants him why not take him the following which is your weekend?"
Her dad. Not mine. On her weekends, he stays with either her dad or her mom. She told him yes BEFORE she told me about it.
My opinion is, ANY time you can be with your kid, take it. Who cares if it's Mom's day, Dad's day or fricken President's day. If your wife notices you'll always get the kid(s) when SHE wants you to....guess who else will eventually notice? Your kid. And they will know they can depend on you NO MATTER WHAT and that is worth anything.
I do. I take him pretty much whenever she needs me to. She literally has him at sitters most of the time. And you're right...he seems to notice that. He responds well to me, he minds quite well, and he even talks about things that are bothering him with me. I doubt he does that with her.
I'm concerned about what she's going to tell his doctor Monday. Conveniently, I won't be there, so she could literally tell the doctor anything at all.
Well if she didn't want a court ordered child schedule perhaps she should have kept her legs closed, eh?
From what she says (and I'm honestly not sure I believe it, but I opt to), she didn't do that till she moved out. But then it was pretty quick before she did. She filed after a month or so. She's basically trying to call all of the shots here.
Our son has a psychologist appointment Monday. She does not want me present (even though they recommend that we both be present). Why? Because she doesn't feel comfortable talking to me.
Do not let that appointment happen without you. It's only 4:00 est, have her call today and reschedule for when you can be there.
Do not let that appointment happen without you. It's only 4:00 est, have her call today and reschedule for when you can be there.
She won't do it. I could be there if we carpool. If I take my car alone, I can't afford gas to get there (it's 1.5 hr away).
I may try find a way to go to it anyway. If I can't, I'll call the office and explain why I am unable to be there (which she won't like at all...heh).
She said "I am not open to it at this time. I have too much going on between now and when school starts. But maybe when it slows down, maybe."
At least that's not a "no".
Same as a "no" in her language.
I agree with Helena about the psychologist appointment Mon. You make a point to be there, and let the doc know that you're there. Do not let her roughshod this! It doesn't matter
what she wants. It matters that they recommended you both be there. If you don't go, it will likely show up on some child services report or custody claim later that dad was not concerned enough to go see what the doctor had to say about his child.
What I'm wondering is this...is it possible that as a WW she is just "taking a break" but doing it the hard (for me) way? Does it sound like she's maaaaaybe considering trying to R at some point?
I don't think you've listened to a thing I have told you since the day you joined the board. But I am going to try once more. Let me make this plain.........
no! No, she's not taking a freakin break! No, she's not considering trying to R at some point! Wake up, already!
Quote:
Do not let that appointment happen without you. It's only 4:00 est, have her call today and reschedule for when you can be there.
She won't do it. I could be there if we carpool. If I take my car alone, I can't afford gas to get there (it's 1.5 hr away).
I may try find a way to go to it anyway. If I can't, I'll call the office and explain why I am unable to be there (which she won't like at all...heh).
It's not about what the office thinks-it's about being present for any and every thing that affects your child. You said yourself that you not being there means she could essentially tell the dr anything she wants....that is really bad and if you have doubts about her doing that, you *cannot* let that happen.
Who cares if she doesn't want you there, feels uncomfortable around you, doesn't like you anymore, none of that matters where your child is concerned. Be there or get it cancelled, pleeeaase.
It enrages me. She literally threw away our M so that she could go nuts and she's out randomly hooking up with guys FREQUENTLY.
This is someone you want to stay with? Listen to the advice being given to you right here on this site. It is better than going to and IC, which you should be going to now anyway.
Stop all pursuit now, get a life now. Find something you are passionate about and do it now. This is your life.
The sooner you embrace this sitch the sooner you will heal.
The balance will be when she sees you moving forward without her!
blackmac: "This weekend is my weekend with S. If your dad wants him why not take him the following which is your weekend?"
Her dad. Not mine. On her weekends, he stays with either her dad or her mom. She told him yes BEFORE she told me about it.
You misunderstand, I was telling you exactly what to say to her. Thus the quotes.
Also, who cares that she already said yes? It wasn't like she signed a document. Telling her dad no after talking to you is her problem, not yours.
Guys, I AM listening. I just forget easily. Very easily.
So, I called the doctor to confirm that they wanted us both there. They said YES, BECAUSE we're separated, they definitely want both of us there.
So when I told her I WAS going to the appointment, she completely went nuts.
She called her mom to pick up our S, so I told her "That's not going to happen. I'm picking him up, and that's final."
She went into total anger meltdown mode.
Look, please don't think I'm not listening. I AM absolutely listening and taking to heart everything here. My working memory is absolutely effed. I am literally trying as hard as I can to follow the advice here. And I LOVE that yall are here trying to help. I promise you all, I'm not ignoring the advice. But I'm making a lot of mistakes. BUT I AM TRYING.
We all make mistakes! Good job on your latest interaction with W. Her going nuts is no different than your S3 throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants. You basically are dealing with two kids right now.
Don't sweat mistakes, just resolve to do better moving forward. We've all been there. I made every mistake imaginable in the first 7-9 weeks after BD.
Yeah. Sounds like you handled that last situation well. Her rage is exactly that, HER rage. It is not yours, so dont own it. Let her have that while you sit back and take care of your S.
Great job!
Thanks. I felt really bad about it though. I didn't break down the whole time, even though she said some seriously hurtful stuff while she was freaking out.
Honestly...I don't know HOW I'm going to make it to the appointment...that takes money. I may figure something out for that, but I dunno.
I'm calling the doctor again Monday to make sure she didn't reschedule the appointment (yes, she would do that). She said that she was going to call them and tell them that she wasn't comfortable with me being there, and she threatened a protective order (literally, the only thing she has for that is that I got upset once and hit MY car, so I don't think she could even get one...except her friend is a cop, so I don't know). I'm not too worried about that.
She said "you say you want to get me back, well THIS isn't how you do it!" and also "I regret having a child with you!".
I know it's just rage. But it [censored] to hear stuff like that. A lot.
Honestly, it feels like I get further with her when I'm NOT standing my ground. It's really, really confusing.
I have no idea what's going on anymore.
first of all it probably feels like you're getting further when you don't stand your ground because she is happier getting what she wants and being able to do what she wants. That is enabling. I wouldn't do that if I were you. as far as the protective order thing goes read through my situation and see where punching a car can get you. Since that already happened and nothing came of it I think you are all set. Don't sweat the hurtful things she has said it's just a defense mechanism to compartmentalize her guilt and crappy emotions for the mean things she's done
^^^^^THIS
OK nailed it. DBing is counter-intuitive. As I said before, her going nuts proves it is working. Women do not get angry when they don't care. After BD I could tell my wife I was banging a different girl a night, and she wouldn't have cared. Hatred is much closer to love than apathy is.
That is way, way counter-intuitive. Heh.
I think that I get confused because it DOES feel pretty unnatural.
One thing that worries me about all of this (and I'm sure I'm probably looking at this wrong) is that my W tends to react VERY strongly when she's angry about something. She has knee-jerk reactions when she's angry. It's honestly kind of unsettling, and I think that's part of why I feel so crappy when she gets angry, because then she'll go off and do something to try to force my hand.
She mentioned yesterday that she felt like I had backed her into a corner...I told her "you chose to leave, you set up the corners yourself". She's getting angry that she can't simply make me go away (of course not...we have a child together) and make me comply with what she wants.
I basically stood my ground about our S appointment. I said "they want us both there, and whether or not you're comfortable with it doesn't matter. I'm not comfortable with this whole situation. But it's about him, not us. Plus...I'm his father, and I have rights, whether you like it or not."
I'm pretty sure she said all kinds of things to her friends about me, and I know they're all talking about how much I suck. I kinda wish they wouldn't, but it doesn't ultimately matter, and I know that. But I do feel like I'm not just fighting against her...but against her army of supportive, stupid, shallow friends.
I think that I get confused because it DOES feel pretty unnatural.
One reason I harp on cramming DB information to newbies is b/c they cannot rely upon their feelings as a guide. You have certain principles, standards, values, morals, integrity, spiritual/religious beliefs......right? Those are instilled for a reason. They are the guide you use in living your life. However, there are some issues that arise that may seem foreign to you b/c you are not experienced or educated about them. The smart thing to do is seek help from others who are experienced and educated.......and get all the information that's available. It's even smarter to base your decisions on the information you learn, combined with your personal values, etc. You cram, just like you did during your school years and knew you would be tested on what had been covered. Would you take a test where you depended on your
feelings to tell you the right answers? I hope not, b/c you would flunk the course subject. And yet, that's what you are doing whenever you say it feels unnatural. It may feel that way b/c you had preconceived ideas of what a man should do to save his M. So, whenever you hear something different to those ideas......it feels unnatural.
Everyone faces things they don't understand, don't like, don't agree with, struggle to accept, etc. You can't stand in the middle of the crisis crying and saying this is not what you want. We get it. It is unfair and it is not what anyone wants, but it is happening anyway. You can be smart and learn the available information......or you can reject it b/c it doesn't feel natural.
I am an emotional person, so I'm not blaming anyone for the feelings they experience. What I am trying to tell you here is that you must stop using a certain feeling as your measuring stick that tells you that you are doing right/wrong actions that will save your M. You have made everything about what your WW wants. Every decision has been based on her wants. If she wants you in the house so many days a month, that's what you do. If she wants you out, that's what you do, too. You were not going to attend the meeting with your child's psychologist b/c your WW did not want you there. You are resembling a puppet on a string, which is not attractive to any W.
It is time you start making decisions for yourself, based on what you are learning.......and stop being led around by your WW's wants. If you don't know what is right or wrong, or which decision to make.......seek help from those who are experienced in that particular area......but stop listening to your WW. She is not going to make wise decisions, and especially not with the M's best interest at heart. I'm sorry, but that's just how it stands, currently. She is going to make decisions based on whatever she wants in the moment.
Sometimes, I make this statement to LBH's, "Stop trying to save your M". I say it b/c men put all their attention and emotions into persuading the W to not get a D. The fear of getting a D builds up until they are paralyzed and can't think. So, my suggestion is to let go. Drop it. Stop trying to save the M, b/c you are making things worse for yourself. Focus on just you and your children. Leave her alone and let her butt with her own head. The more you show your desperation, the less attractive she sees you. Stop telling her you want her, or that you want the M and don't want a D. She knows it, and to continue telling her makes her feel disgusted with you. Don't invite her to go with you back to your other home/state. Don't invite her or arrange for your older children to spend time with her. She fired you as her H, and that means she loses certain benefits.........starting with not spending time with her stepchildren. You can expect her to make very hurtful statements, and jab you everytime something doesn't suit her. Put on your armor. It will get worse, b/c you have acted like her little boy and have let her call the shots for so long.
In this coming week, I hope you will read my threads on the mindset of the WW, if you haven't previously read them. It may enlighten you as to how your W has turned into someone you no longer recognize.
blackmac, now that you have sandi's attention, you are in excellent hands. If you have any chance of R then you will pay heed to sandi's advice!
Thank you, Sandi. I have read your threads, and honestly...they're brilliant.
I actually stopped telling her that I want her back, didn't want D, etc. a while back. I haven't really backed down on that. I think I'm just getting confused telling what's working and what's not. Probably because (in a perfect world) nice=good screaming=bad.
The previous time I put my foot down with her, she got a LOT more chill, even a little flirty.
It felt good. Then she started opening up.
Then her meltdown yesterday happened.
Funny thing...her family mentioned to me that W believed for years that she has ADHD...which I have, and our S has. But she's denied it, hasn't ever gotten treatment for it...and now accuses me of not having my life together, and doesn't want me in the room with the doctor that's going to help our S with it...I'm thinking she's afraid that the dr is going to point out that she has it, too, and then her entire dialog against me is going to be flipped on it's head.
I think she'd do or say just about anything to keep her mind thinking that I'm wrong.
So...that's a big thing coming up that she's going to have to deal with.
Honestly, this could be interesting. Heh.
She's got a lot of heavy reality to deal with, and it's coming very, very quickly.
I'm not going to be surprised if she tries to reschedule the dr visit and doesn't tell me about it.
So what are your future plans? Have you planned a life without your spouse? I didn't and it almost destroyed me. Do you want her back and is she worth the pain you are going through? When you are an LBS we put ur WAS on a pedestal.I did. And I regret it today. I thought nothing of myself after she filed for a divorce. In my head my life was over.
I came here to save my marriage. It didn't work out for me. And I'm glad it didnt. I did not realize how unhappy I was with my wife of 26 years. Don't get me wrong I miss my family. I miss holidays traditions and everything else. I miss seeing my daughter every morning for breakfast and dinner.
I tell you a bit of my story because I know what your are going through. I know the pain and confusion. And most of all the Fear...I survived and so will you....
Future plans? Work. Get out of debt. Get the band playing shows again. Start another band or two. Record an album. Go back to college.
I do have plans, but honestly, I've always had those plans. Even with her here.
It's a lot of pain, absolutely. But yes. I definitely want her back, and to me it's worth all of the pain in the world. Although I'd love to be able to NOT have to hurt. Heh. But I realize that anything worth having is worth fighting for, and when you have to fight, you'll get hurt...even if you win.
I'm wanting her to choose to be with me. I'm not begging her to come back.
But I can hope.
I am a believer that marriage it's forever. That's why I came here that's why I found this place. I looked for a place to save my marriage. She didn't want any part of it. I. Haven't seen her or had any communication with her in over 6 years. Just let go. Give her what she wants... her freedom.
And what do you have to offer for her to come back to the marriage?
She knows that I have been 100% dedicated to her, loved her, and cared for her since the beginning. I want to be a good husband to her...I don't hold on to her mistakes (well, until this happened), she knows that if she came back she would still have my love and respect...although my trust would have to be earned back. I'm not a pushover.
I have always gone out of my way to make sure that she could have her own life, her own friends, and her own free time.
I also believed that marriage was for life, and I meant it when I said my vows to her. And she would still have all of that.
Except she would be getting back a person who is more aware of my role in what went wrong, and who would take steps to avoid getting to that point again. I would be more engaged with the family altogether...both her and our S. I know what he's up against with his ADHD diagnosis, so I would be a dedicated leader in helping him grow to have the best life he could. And the same for her.
If she came back, I would work to correct our issues to the best of my ability. And yes...I would do what I could to put this all in the past. And if she comes back, and she actually does earn my trust back...then she will have my trust again completely. Even if it bugs me from time to time, because I know that it'll always be somewhere in my head, but I wouldn't use it as a weapon to try to control her...it would just be a speed bump at that point.
Right now, that speed bump is a brick wall.
I'm a very forgiving person. And I know that right now, I don't have to be. But I can be, and I'm willing to forgive and move on.
I don't think a lot of people would be.
I'm not spineless. I have been. But that's over. The guy she met that night at karaoke...well, I'm still here. And I'm still waiting, hoping that she'll change her heart.
But I'm not her doormat, and all I expect is honesty and effort to prove that she's worth my time...because to me, she absolutely deserves to be treated with love. And she had that, and she can absolutely have it again if she wants it.
Our son deserves a strong family. I'm all in for that. I'm all in for helping him with or without her. But I would love her company on the journey.
She is the only person that I've ever been in any kind of R with that made me feel free to be myself. And I miss that feeling.
I'm older, tired often, my emotions run very strongly...but I'm also caring, forgiving, loyal, and willing to work to make her feel comfortable enough to be happy with me.
It's totally up to her. We're all human. We all make mistakes. Some of those are pretty epic. But we all need to feel loved and respected. And that's what she'll get from me.
Blak,
If you going to give all that to your W, what are you going to give yourself?
We give these grand gesters to get our S back, me included, and we forget to care for ourselves. When in reality, if we water ourselves, nurtured ourselves, we bloom into an awesome flower with the sweetest honey and attract the most beautiful bees. Your W might be one of those bees, but until you water and nurture yourself you will only push away people. Become attractive! Smile and laugh and enjoy life. That's what YOU deserve.
To me hope is so important. And I think you're in a healthy spot in that regard.
Where many other posters go awry in their DBing efforts is tying DBing to a lack of hope. In other words if I have hope I'm going to pursue, pressure and chase. Then they get discouraged because all that does is push their WAS further away.
Then there's the other extreme of a lack of hope so I'm going to initiate divorce myself.
The trick to DBing is to stay even through the hope and hopelessness. You will cycle between the two but not letting it dictate your actions is the key.
Those that DB well stay consistent through out. The remain patient even over years if they have to. We have a poster here whose XW is showing signs of wanting to R even after they've been divorced for 4 years.
So those that keep their emotions under control are the ones that have a chance. Those that let their emotions control them are the ones that spiral into a divorce that is final.
Our society has a clear lack of control of self these days. You don't have to look very far to see examples of a lack of self control. We aren't animals. We don't act on pure instinct. We can control ourselves as free moral agents.
If you going to give all that to your W, what are you going to give yourself?
I'm going to stick to my goals, take care of myself, and not let myself get back into the dark place I was in before with my moods.
The trick to DBing is to stay even through the hope and hopelessness. You will cycle between the two but not letting it dictate your actions is the key.
I think that's where I've been, alternating between hope/no hope. I'm still working on finding balance there and staying centered so I can stay on track with this.
I was on my way to my S psychology appt this morning. I had made it about 35 miles and I got a text from my W saying that she had a meeting at 1 today, so she canceled the appt.
I called the dr, she rescheduled it. I told her I would see them Wednesday then (at the rescheduled appt).
She called them back and canceled it and didn't reschedule.
She said "You have the right, as his father, to take him by yourself and set up your own appointment for him. Let me know if you set up an appointment so I can have him ready whenever it is."
I knew she would pull something like this. She also doesn't seem to care that his psychologist requested that BOTH of us be there for his appointments.
I'm curious to see what she tries to do next. She didn't say what the meeting was for, but I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to do something like get a protective order just to keep me out of the appointments. She's definitely threatened to do that.
I'm really confused as to why she thinks this is a good idea...she's literally putting her own wants before her S needs. And it's pretty infuriating.
Honestly...I think she's angry that she isn't getting her way with me anymore. What she doesn't seem to understand is that when she walked out and filed D, she lost all rights to tell me what to do. And if the doctor requests that I am at his appointments, then I'm going to do everything in my power to be at them, whether she likes it or not.
I feel like I'm dealing with a child throwing a tantrum.
Yes, that is exactly it, dealing with a child throwing a tantrum.
I'd schedule the appointment and take him yourself. Make sure to document all of this so that if it comes up in divorce court you are covered. Your W is trying to control you and the situation. Take the bull by the horns and get him in to see the psychologist. If she doesn't come, against the doctor's orders, the so be it. That will look really bad for her.
My only advice for how you could have handled differently is to just have showed up at the Wednesday appointment without saying anything. By saying "see you wednesday" you kind of rubbed her face into your checking up. But that is a small stumble because she might have caught on before that anyway.
Make an appointment, arrange to get your S to it. He is #1 priority at this point. Your W is playing games with your S's mental well-being.
I'd schedule the appointment and take him yourself.
I just set up his appointment for Thursday and notified her so that he'll be ready for the appointment.
I also had the doctor's office add my contact information to his chart, because she didn't.
Now we wait and see what happens.
Get ready, she might have another explosion. She probably NEVER imagined you'd take the initiative to do this.
Good job. Keep detaching.......
Someone sent me screenshots of all of her Facebook posts that are still on her timeline since she left.
There are a few about dissociation, wishing she could help someone but knowing they need to help themselves...
This is really getting more confusing as it goes.
I'm wondering if she didn't want me at the appointment because she was going to try to address some of her own issues, but wasn't comfortable talking about them around me because she'd be afraid that I'd use them against her...?
I'm staying the course. I'm still going to take our S to his appointment.
I just wish that she would open up a little more, because if she was having more serious mental health issues, I would tend to be a bit more understanding.
Ugh. Now I feel like I'm doing the right thing...but at what cost?
I'm supposed to be polite, respectful, and positive, and simultaneously give no @#$^& about what she's doing?
It is quite confusing, but... imagine that you talk to a stranger (like me) when you actually talk to her. If I tell you that I have problems, will you give me unsolicited advice? Will you ask me why I need a babysitter, and where I am going tonight?
This is the hard part about detaching. You have to respect her decision to split, enough to treat her politely as if she is a remote acquaintance.
On the other hand, you can enforce the same to her. "Where are you? Atlantic City Who is with you? Friends. What are you doing there? Stuff." That way, she will understand what it means for her to detach from you.
In an earlier post you said:
I'm keeping my son all weekend. That always makes me anxious because she has a lot of free time when she's not working. BUT...I'm doing everything I can to just not think about it.
It is a torture. I know. However, you need (mainly for your son's sake and for your own sake) to focus to being his father above everything else. If she chooses to go out with guys when you are with him, that is her problem. Your main problem should be how not to affect your son in this situation.
Focus on your son, and focus on getting a job. Getting a good job was a game changer for me.
I think she'd do or say just about anything to keep her mind thinking that I'm wrong.
Absolutely. That is why do not take it personally, and definitely do not get worked up by what she says.
Please work on interrupting thoughts that start as the above. They do not lead to anything good.
Now I feel like I'm doing the right thing...but at what cost?
You are trying to do what is best for your son. that that is great. Not sure what costs you are talking about, but they seem imaginary to me. I think you need more time to detach.
The cost I'm referring to is the marriage.
I'm going on as if it's over. Because right now, it is.
Honestly, I'm worried about her well-being right now. And I know that's her battle to fight. I'm wondering if she was going to talk to the psychologist about her problems, and wasn't ready to talk to me, and wondering if I messed that all up. Because she really DOES need to do that.
I'm definitely second-guessing myself. I'm not trying to derail her healing at all, I'm only trying to step up and handle this in the best way that I can. I keep thinking that I'm doing something wrong, even when I know I'm doing what I need to. I absolutely have some issues with how I view myself. I am trying to be more positive, but this is all very, very draining and I keep losing focus.
DB is absolutely the most difficult thing I've ever done. I just wish that I could see results faster...and I know I have to be patient. Ugh. Being patient is difficult. lol
Okay, so there's definitely something to this GAL thing.
No, I haven't seen results really with the W. But I have noticed that getting out and exercising is making a definite difference. I'm down just over 31 lbs, feeling physically pretty good, and I've noticed that some other ladies are taking notice...not interested, but it definitely is a confidence boost. I'd like to think my W would raise eyebrows in a positive way, but I haven't run into her yet, and I'm not really in a big hurry to.
I guess that's how it works...feel better, raise your confidence levels...then they start seeing what they're missing out on...
Anyway, I know it's not specific to the situation at hand, but I wanted to share because without yall's advice, I would probably still be sitting around crying my head off, eating too much, and not doing anything at all.
Thanks for the advice and motivation! You guys and gals are awesome. I'll keep you all posted.
I don't know that there's enough posts about what GAL feels like, but then, I haven't really looked that hard for them...but I'm more motivated than ever this morning. So...truly...thank you all.
bm, keep up the good work!
I have often wondered what would happen if my W discovered I had read DR or see my postings here. My name is not my real name but I think there is enough detail in the posts that she would know it was me.
And I cannot help but think.... it wouldn't matter.
If our changes are to be believed they have to be long term. You cannot really fake that.
So even though she saw you had the book and may have even looked it up...and even though she said I hope you don't think we get back together... I think if she notices legitimate and authentic changes that that alone is enough.
I think that a WW wouldn't really be trying to look for "how to save a marriage" websites. At least, mine isn't.
I doubt most would.
Which means this is an advantage for us.
Great job! So glad to see you focusing on what is best for S regardless of what W thinks. Also great that you're exercising and feeling better about yourself in general. Keep it up!
She's got a lot of heavy reality to deal with, and it's coming very, very quickly.
Actually, that's a good thing........if you won't try to rescue her. It's called tough love b/c it hurts to see our loved one go through unpleasant times........but if it is the result of their own doing, they have to endure the consequences. If they are rescued every time, they won't learn and won't change.
You don't have to convince us that you are good person. Being a good man is not the same as having NGS. Learn about NGS and know the difference in doing things b/c they are based on your values and principles.....from doing it out of fear of retaliation or rejection, etc. I also encourage you to google male dominance in MR. It's not what some people think when they see those two little words. BTW, I am not saying you have an issue with either, but reading it should enlighten you.... if you
do have a problem.
But I'm not her doormat, and all I expect is honesty and effort to prove that she's worth my time...because to me, she absolutely deserves to be treated with love. And she had that, and she can absolutely have it again if she wants it.
I'm really glad to hear you say you aren't spineless and not her doormat. I just want you to understand that this is not going to be neatly wrapped and tied up that easily. It's going to take much, much longer than you ever dreamed. It's going to get worse. You will want to give up. In order to keep going in a positive direction, you need to seriously consider making changes.
Before you can save your M, you've got to save yourself. Look at this time as boot camp. It's demanding, but if you'll follow the instructions, you will be able to handle almost anything that comes at you. Are you up for the challenge?
You may need to retrain your thoughts and attitude. Instead of focusing on everything your W says & does, or seeing yourself as defeated, focus only on what is best for you or your son at the time.........don't make it all about her. You will need to practice letting go of your need to control your W. Let go of trying to control her life......her decisions, her thoughts, her needs, etc.
Stop thinking of her as your W. See her as a woman you don't know, don't share history, and you aren't trying to share a future. Currently, your main focus points are (1) being a good father; (2) protecting your welfare, emotions & self esteem; (3) getting/building a life that does not depend, include, or connect with your W.
She is the only person that I've ever been in any kind of R with that made me feel free to be myself. And I miss that feeling.
Can you be free to be yourself......
apart from her? I think it is very important to be able to be yourself with or without that relationship in your life. Naturally, you had rather have it, b/c you love her......love being a family.....and you miss it terribly. ((hugs)). The men I have seen come through this hell successfully, are those who learn how to be happy with themselves (independent of another person), and who let go of their W. That's not to say they give up all hope of ever reconciling......but they stop focusing on the W and fretting over the sitch.
I'm wondering if she didn't want me at the appointment because she was going to try to address some of her own issues, but wasn't comfortable talking about them around me because she'd be afraid that I'd use them against her...?
It usually has very little to do with what the H imagines. It's best if you don't dwell on all the possibilities, b/c it is wasted energy. Just know that you did the right thing by making the appointment yourself. If she decides to really fight you on this, then expect to find the child asleep or not dressed and ready for the appointment, or they may be gone when you arrive. Does the child need to be there? I thought this was a doctor's consultation with the parents.
Now I feel like I'm doing the right thing...but at what cost?
This appointment with your child's doctor is not about your W. If she can't be rational and put her anger aside long enough to do what's right for him........then why would you even question?
Honestly, I'm worried about her well-being right now. And I know that's her battle to fight. I'm wondering if she was going to talk to the psychologist about her problems, and wasn't ready to talk to me, and wondering if I messed that all up. Because she really DOES need to do that.
If this meeting is regarding the child, I'm sure the psychologist will keep the focus on him.....and not your W. But what if she
did talk about her problems? So what! She is not going to open up to you. And even if she did, it would not fix things. She can talk to anyone & everyone...,..and there is nothing you can do about it. You
know it, on an intellectual level, but you don't want to accept it emotionally. This is part that letting go I was talking about. Just let that stuff go.
She has fired you, b/c she doesn't want you for a H. Therefore, her well-being is none of your business. I know you still love her and you are very concerned about her. I'm just trying to tell you that you have to retrain the way you see her and how you think about this sitch. DBing is learning how to detach. I will try to copy & paste a short description, if I can.
DB is absolutely the most difficult thing I've ever done. I just wish that I could see results faster...and I know I have to be patient. Ugh
It depends upon what you see as "results". Just b/c she is not doing what you identify as results, doesn't mean things are not working together behind the scenes. She is on a different time table from you. It is going to take a long time before you see the type of things you identify as positive results. Unless you change how you think and cope with things connected to her, you are going to wear out. Do you know the name of your biggest enemy? It's called Blakmac.
((hugs))
Continued from my previous post, this is a description of DB detaching:
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
Before you can save your M, you've got to save yourself. Look at this time as boot camp. It's demanding, but if you'll follow the instructions, you will be able to handle almost anything that comes at you. Are you up for the challenge?
I am up to the challenge. For sure.
Can you be free to be yourself......apart from her?
I was before, and I can be. In fact, I'm pretty much the same person I was before. The difference is that in all of my other R's before her, I couldn't completely be myself. They would be annoyed by my personality. Which explains why they didn't really work out. Heh.
If she decides to really fight you on this, then expect to find the child asleep or not dressed and ready for the appointment, or they may be gone when you arrive. Does the child need to be there? I thought this was a doctor's consultation with the parents.
He will be ready to go and at the sitter's house most likely before I wake up in the morning. It is his appointment, but they requested that both parents be present at his sessions.
---
Thank you, Sandi. You're awesome.
I was before, and I can be.
Now that's the kind of answer I like!
The difference is that in all of my other R's before her, I couldn't completely be myself. They would be annoyed by my personality. Which explains why they didn't really work out. Heh.
Well, who wants to stay in a R where you can't be free to be your authentic self? Have you evaluated these times you were in those R's to see if you had not fully revealed your personality in the early stages of getting to know each other? Some of us tend to show our best side when we are trying to win someone's heart. Later, when the full personality is revealed, the other person wonders what happened to the one they really liked.
Anyway, you have enough experience to know not to get into a R with anyone (friends, etc) where you don't feel free to be your true self. I'm just curious.......what exactly annoyed them about your personality?
He will be ready to go and at the sitter's house most likely before I wake up in the morning. It is his appointment, but they requested that both parents be present at his sessions.
Gotcha!
I have often wondered what would happen if my W discovered I had read DR or see my postings here. My name is not my real name but I think there is enough detail in the posts that she would know it was me.
And I cannot help but think.... it wouldn't matter.
If our changes are to be believed they have to be long term. You cannot really fake that.
So even though she saw you had the book and may have even looked it up...and even though she said I hope you don't think we get back together... I think if she notices legitimate and authentic changes that that alone is enough.
I really like this. At the end of the day, you're doing what you choose to do. And what's best. She'll make her decision. You just focus on what you can control.
So made it to the appointment today. It went well, although they wondered why she wasn't there. So I told them. They asked how the separation was going, I said it was kind of a mess. They also asked if S was noticing, I told them he had been asking questions about things, and was obviously upset about it.
I met W at her work so she could pick up our S. She was all decked out in purple lipstick. She wouldn't even look at me, and I had to catch her as she was walking off to tell her the date of his next appointment (which I went ahead and set up). She didn't even ask how the appointment with, she was too busy being cool around her co-workers.
Meanwhile, I've lost 44 lbs. So that's going well.
Like, seriously, she's still mad at me about this. Ugh. It's freaking annoying.
Oh well. Her loss.
Let her be mad, that's her stomping her feet. Stay strong. I can't believe she doesn't care enough to ask about her own kid.
She cares about him, but she doesn't want to talk to me, so she's not going to try to.
That's okay. She can explain that to his psychologist on the next visit. Heh.
I've probably read it somewhere, but I've forgotten it, so I'm just going to ask...
Is it normal for the WW during all of the tantrum throwing to actually insist that they not be held accountable for their actions?
Because I remember a bit back, W was saying that I was guilt tripping her and trying to make her feel like a bad mom...fast forward to now...heh.
Back after the first OM, she actually posted on FB something about me not wanting to keep our S because of a "mistake she made". I was having a pretty difficult emotional time, and I had told her I just needed to make sure I was okay (I had set up my own sitter to watch our S because I definitely needed to calm down and pull myself together). The funny thing about her "mistake" was that it was a random hook up with a co-worker, and she didn't really seem to see it as anything other than a "drunken mistake". Once...maybe. But then after MULTIPLE dudes, it's clearly not a mistake...it's a choice.
Ugh. Either way, yes, I'm wondering if this is just the kind of mental crap she's got to wade through before she figures out that she's messing up? Like, she doesn't want anyone else calling her out so she can figure it out herself...or she just doesn't want consequences from anyone other than herself (I'm sure it's this...just looking for someone to confirm that this is normal).
Yes WWs try to avoid consequences and accountability at all costs!! Remember, you will not find a more selfish creature on the planet than a WW. They epitomize "me first" attitude and action. That is what all the bluster about the appointment was. Think about it, she was willing to just forego the well-being of her S in order to avoid whatever it was she wanted to avoid. ME FIRST! She randomly hooks up with a coworker and then blames you for not dealing with it. ME FIRST! She is willing to destroy her family, and having a long-lasting impact (NEVER believe anyone that tells you otherwise too) on her S so that she can get some strange. ME FIRST!
WWs care about no one but themselves. They don't care how their actions affect other people. They don't care how it looks to others. And they certainly do not give a wink about the LBH!!
At the height of my wife's waywardness she even told me she didn't care who I told about our sitch. Obviously, deep down she did because I do not think she would consider R if others knew about our issues and what caused them. But at the time I truly believe she BELIEVED she didn't care. SCRAMBLED EGGS FOR BRAINS!
Thanks, Steve. That was what I was thinking about the whole thing. Sometimes I just need some reassurance that I'm not crazy. Heh.
She definitely got upset that I had spoken with some of her family about the ordeal. They learned some stuff (which I didn't think they would share, honestly) about her that she NEVER wanted them to know. Whoops. I wouldn't have ever just divulged the info, but I'm also quite honest with people, so when they ask...
I get the feeling that she IS struggling with everything, she KNOWS what kind of trouble she's making, but as long as her friends are there to be supportive (in the YOLO sense), then she's just going to be able to avoid consequences (in her own mind) for as long as she needs.
I'm learning though. And I'm just sitting back and watching everything run its course. Eventually I know it'll all come down around her. But I do wish that it would hurry up. lol.
Every day I'm feeling more and more detached from her. And I know that's good. But part of me really, really hates it. I know this isn't the girl I married. I still very much love that girl. This isn't her.
Thanks again. Just a sanity check to make sure I'm still thinking right.