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Took my lunch hour today to try to sort through things in my head. I am fluctuating between going home and telling her I want D, to getting back up on the horse and trying again. I just don't see how much longer I can continue this. She is still not fully vested in this MR, and as AS pointed out R cannot truly occur until she is.
She is cake eating and living it up. In the meantime I have to wonder what she is doing and who she is doing it with. Admittedly I am in a much better place here than just a month ago. Today I haven't really thought about any of that, and when I have apathy has set in. Any emotion towards it is more sadness that she allowed us to get to the point where I can't trust her anymore.
In my non-MR relationships if you violate my trust you get kicked to the curb. I don't tolerate it in my friendships and in my family relationships. So why should I tolerate it in my MR? Should I? If that is a standard I have for myself and others, why should I not hold to that standard with my W?
I am starting to wonder if she'll ever find it in herself to fully commit to the MR. Which makes me wonder if she ever really was at all. I know she wanted a kid/kids. And that may have been why we ended up together late in our 20s and eventually having our daughter.
She had a messed up childhood, and then her mom made a terrible decision that led to the collapse of their once close relationship. My W may not ever be able to get past any of that. And she doesn't like to discuss any of it with anyone, including me and therapists.
So maybe I should just move on, and forget about it. I think my initial reaction to BD was more a fear of rejection than really being opposed to D. I have thought about D many times over the course of the last 19 years. So maybe that is my answer?
Amoafwl, thanks for the response in my last thread.
However, I thought the DBing way was to back off and let her have room to "be herself". Obviously if she was fully committed to making the MR, which she appears to be moving towards, then I would have to set the boundary of cutting off contact with this idiot. You are right, I think she likes the attention. He 8 years her junior and attention from younger men was what she was craving as she was approaching 50. It may her feel younger and wanted. Now I think she just sees him as a friend, but I will not be comfortable with that if we move into full R.
On the house, I really meant that pulling the plug would make me look like a jerk, not that it can't be done. Right now, when she isn't on the singing app, she is on Zillow house hunting. Maybe I am afraid of removing that and having her fill that time with other activities? Might be some truth to that. But truth be told I have wanted a new house for several years, with more land. And financially we are ready to do that.
But yes, you are right, she is not fully committed yet. Though as I said she told the MC that she was leaning much more towards staying in the MR than D. Of course, my behavior this morning probably didn't help in that regard.
Just reread sandi's rules. I will be going whole hog in with these again starting tonight. Wish me luck. If you pray please remember me in your prayers. (No need to "think" about me, that does nothing.)
Also, for the first time in a longtime I am not looking forward to going home. Dreading it even.
Steve, we all have setbacks and make mistakes while going through this. I just keep reminding myself that I can't change the past, but I can learn from it. You didn't lose everything you've worked for in one morning, but you can learn from it and do better. Good luck!
Man...
You sure are giving her a lot of power over your life buddy...
Steve...in my opinion you need to decide what your boundaries are and what your willing to enforce.
I would just take a deep breathe, calm yourself and don't go blitzkrieg when you get home making emotional decisions.
Two days ago your making long posts about piecing, your W moving over to the middle of the bed and your success story of what got you to this point and how you were detached. Now your going b@lls to the wall to do what?
Calm ,steady, non-emotional...what are you willing to accept and not accept? What are your personal boundaries?
Don't make the situation worse.
However, I thought the DBing way was to back off and let her have room to "be herself". Obviously if she was fully committed to making the MR, which she appears to be moving towards, then I would have to set the boundary of cutting off contact with this idiot.
I would advise to reread the boundary thread(s). It isnt about a boundary of controlling her behavior...its about what you will allow in a relationship with you. If it were me, I wouldnt be OK with my partner continuing to converse with someone across those lines. Not to say that she couldnt, but that I would not continue that relationship.
You are right, I think she likes the attention. He 8 years her junior and attention from younger men was what she was craving as she was approaching 50. It may her feel younger and wanted. Now I think she just sees him as a friend, but I will not be comfortable with that if we move into full R.
On the house, I really meant that pulling the plug would make me look like a jerk, not that it can't be done.
So her actions dont have any consequences? Why would you go forward with this huge investment KNOWING that your marriage is on shaky ground? Would you go into business with someone on premises like that?
But yes, you are right, she is not fully committed yet. Though as I said she told the MC that she was leaning much more towards staying in the MR than D. Of course, my behavior this morning probably didn't help in that regard.
That makes sense...anything to get you to bend and twirl at her whim. She isnt committed, but rather just leaning on it...depending on how you behave? Maybe shell stick around if it suits her....like getting a new house!
Why is it such a given that you will stay in this M? What does she have to do that you would back away? Because shes still communicating with someone that has sent explicit photos with and you still want to move forward with buying a house with her...Where is your boundary? What will you accept in a wife?
Also, what are you doing for GAL this week?
So last night I went home, and reemployed Sandi's rules. I was upbeat, friendly, but did not start conversation. As before with sandi's rules, she detected it right away and asked if I was still upset. I said "No, not at all." I validated her when she spoke, I did everything according to sandi's rules.
Getting away from those rules is what hurt me to begin with, so I will now make sure I am visiting the list often to make sure I am sticking to them.
Thanks for responses and advice. I will be more cautious not to get my expectations up in the future.
One clarification, on the house hunting. My wife's credit is screwed up, so the house will only be in my name. I can afford it, so it isn't a big deal even if she decides to leave at some point.
We looked at one yesterday that I would be wanting to buy even if she were already gone!
Slow down and think this through. I can't come up with any scenario where it makes sense to buy a new house with this woman at this time, even if she's not on the deed and even if you can afford it on your own. Not being on the deed doesn't necessarily mean she can't claim half of the equity value on her way out the door. And could you still afford it if she took half of everything else that you own (think half the furniture, half your cash savings, (possibly) half your retirement, and on and on; what if you have to pay child support and alimony for some number of years? Would the house be a good one for you if you are in it all by yourself at least half the time, or would it be a lonely place until your D14 came for her visitation?
I think you're hoping that her apparent interest in buying a house indicates she wants to reconcile and go the distance in your marriage. It does not mean that, unfortunately.
I guess it isn't specifically stated in Sandi's Rules that you shouldn't buy a new house with a wayward spouse, but I kind of think maybe she thought that was so obvious it wouldn't need to be said.
I was a big pursuit guy, too, so don't think I'm judging you. Just hoping you see the light before having to go down a bunch more painful, cheese-less tunnels (like I did).
Hold off on any major purchases...
W and I bought a new house (a dream house and perfect for the kids; also our first home together). She blew it all up in six months after buying the house. Had to sell the house and it shattered everything. It was devastating for me that she did this.
Heed JRuss's words. This is a bad bad idea.
The house is a log cabin on a big plot of land. With a pond and river on it. So yes, I could be happy here. I am a hunter and love being in the outdoors, so actually this house would be perfect if she up and left. Luckily I am in a financial position that I can afford it even if she takes half of everything.
Yes I am hoping we move into full blown R, and the MR is restored. But if not, at least I will be able to go out on my own property and get into the woods to unwind.
Slow down and think this through. I can't come up with any scenario where it makes sense to buy a new house with this woman at this time, even if she's not on the deed and even if you can afford it on your own. Not being on the deed doesn't necessarily mean she can't claim half of the equity value on her way out the door. And could you still afford it if she took half of everything else that you own (think half the furniture, half your cash savings, (possibly) half your retirement, and on and on; what if you have to pay child support and alimony for some number of years? Would the house be a good one for you if you are in it all by yourself at least half the time, or would it be a lonely place until your D14 came for her visitation?
Lots of good thoughts here ^^^^
Since it's a marital asset, she will be entitled to half, whether she's on the deed or not.
All that being said, if you will be able to afford it (AFTER ALIMONY AND CHILD SUPPORT), and you want it for YOU, then go for it.
sandi 's rules are amazing
So after over 24 hours of adhering to sandi's rules I was in our master bedroom reading for about a hour and a half.
My wife came I and playfully asked me why I wasn't with her in the family room. I told her it was dark in there for reading but that I was about to stop reading and I'd come back out there. She then came over and have me a smooch. Still not an oddly passionate kiss, but still nice.
It is amazing how when you pull back emotionally then they'll come towards you.
Sandi, in my first thread you said " but I read a non-religious book written about women's infidelity." The author's initials weren't ML were they?
Hey everyone. Is it normal to start seriously questioning of I want to save my marriage. The last few days I've started thinking maybe I want a divorce. It's odd because for the last three months I've wanted nothing more than to save my marriage.
Steve, I don't know the answer to that. My husband has done many bad things but I worked to save the marriage up until he temporarily stopped sending financial support in January, at which point I called a lawyer and then called him to ask if he wants a divorce. Before that we had never discussed divorce. He said yes, he wants a divorce, then I regretted ever saying that word because I didn't want one. Currently I feel like I *should* want a divorce but I still don't, not that I think the marriage will be fixed, but because going through the process still seems so overwhelming.
I don't know. It seems you're entering a new phase in the DB process. Advice from those who are further along would be more valuable than mine, but I still believe it's worth trying to save a marriage unless your spouse exhibits totally wreckless, abusive, serial-cheating behavior.
S - Yes it is normal, you will cycle but I don't think you are ready to get a D. You are still too focused on your W and what she is doing and what crumbs she is throwing your way. It's ok you are very early on and it is normal.
How long you stay in limbo is your personal choice but at some point in time you have to start to value yourself more than the desire to recon your MR. It appears that your W is still chatting with OM or as she would put it his "bestie" does that violate and of your personal boundaries? I am not saying it should or shouldn't but just know that if you chose to continue as is, it is going to be a very long, painful process because you are essentially hoping she will come around and pick you.
If your W knows that you know she is continuing to talk to OM and you just accept it and don't do anything about it I am not sure you are going to earn her respect. As you know women need to respect before they can love.
As LH told me things need to get worse before they get better. I would just suggest you start to think about what you are willing to accept or not accept and what your personal boundaries are. I know it is scary we have all been there as we lose control of everything that was important to us.
Just think about how you would respond from a position of strength vs just waiting around for her to dictate every move.
You seem like a good man Steve......hang in there!
Thanks Nicole. Its a weird feeling. It didn't come on suddenly, but it did sneak up on me. I had inklings of that feeling but it really came oon strong in the lastv few days.
Joseph, thanks. Its weird. Maybe it appears I'm focused on her from my posting but I've hit a point of ambivalence. Its approaching apathy. I really don't care what shes doing anymore.
I am at the point where I don't want to be married to someone that I'm worried about. And that realization has really freed me from even caring what's she's doing.
I don't even think about snooping on her phone or PC anymore. It just doesn't feel like it matters anymore.
I agree I don't think I'm ready yet. But I wouldn't care if she pushed for it either.
If your ok just letting her do whatever she wants then you really, really have to let her go emotionally. Based on your posting about the other morning and your reaction I don't think you are there yet. Just my observation.
I snooped when my W first moved out and then I stopped. As time went on I no longer felt the urge however I knew I wasn't detached because their were times when she would say something to me and it impacted me emotionally and I felt that sensation in my stomach.
As time goes on you your path will become more clear. I was lucky in many respects that my W moved out 3 weeks after BD so I didn't have to see her or talk to her every day which helped me move forward. As you grow stronger and become more confident what you are willing to accept and not accept will change. It might be hard to see now but it will. Once you get to that point you will have some choices to make.
I don't think your W is going to push for it, just my opinion. In my opinion what happens next will be determined by you, your boundaries, what your willing to accept and how long you will accept it for. I think your W is perfectly happy with the situation and how it is.
I also found it interesting at your MC session that you spoke about what you needed change and there was nothing at all about your W's behavior and the work she needed to do. We only know what you post though so maybe you just left that out
When the LBS is able to take the rose-tinted glasses off and look back at the MR with objectivity, they realize that their partners failed them spectacularly as well and that the fate of the MR is not the sole fault of the LBS.
This can bring up a lot of emotions, and one of them being not wanting to be with that person and wanting a D. As others have said, this is part of the cycle of emotions as soon as the LBS starts finding the ground underneath their feet.
Don't make any rash decisions at this point. You need to give yourself months before you are truly able to take emotion out of the decision.
However, at the point where you are right now, use what you're feeling and translate that into dropping the rope, focusing on your wellbeing, GAL, and not thinking about her. Detachment is layered and you will peel off the layers over time, but it requires consistent work on yourself. Just focus on that.
You will reach clarity about what you want to do about standing for your MR or divorce in time. Don't rush it. You have time - lots of it and exercise patience.
Thanks. Good perspectives here. Part of me wants to file and then buy that house myself. But you're right, it's an emotional desire.
I also found it interesting at your MC session that you spoke about what you needed change and there was nothing at all about your W's behavior and the work she needed to do. We only know what you post though so maybe you just left that out
Well there have been MC sessions that focused on her and what she needed to do. I'm fact it was after such a session that she uninstalled the singing app and game appps admitting that she couldn't "handle"them. Meaning that when guys when flirt with her she would reciprocate.
She did reinstall the singing app after a few days with a promise to herself to avoid that social aspect of the app. I haven't cared enough to see if she's messaging inappropriately on it since. Like I said that desire to snoop just isn't there anymore. I'm I completely detached? No. But I'm much closer than I was a month ago. As you said, multilayered.
Very good weekend with the W. Things are continuing to show improvement and her behavior continues to be so much better than it was 2 months ago. Multiple times this weekend she handed me her phone unlocked so I could look through pictures she was showing to me, and other things she wanted me to see (a list of houses). 2 months ago no way would she have done this. She's also much more active at church again than she was 2 months ago.
I did bring up the passionate kissing things. I know I shouldn't have, but its been weighing on my mind we were laying in bed snuggled up, and I said "Are we ever going to be able to kiss passionately again?" And she said "I hope so". It hurt to hear her acknowledge that we still aren't there yet, but at the same time it was good to hear because it shows we still have a way to go. This helps keep me from getting too grounded and lax.
Looked at 4 more houses. Found an awesome house on a lake. This one would be much more of a stretch financially (mainly due to the taxes), but it was an incredible house. I still want the log house on the acreage but there are some things that need to be considered (distance to my daughter's school and to our church).
Other than that we had a good time with the running around we did as a family. D's behavior has been better too mainly because she got herself grounded and was working to try to get to friend's birthday party that she really wanted to attend on Saturday night. She didn't get to because she is grounded, but it was nice to see her putting in an effort.
I think my head is spinning from how fast you seem to go back and forth. A few days ago, you were writing epic posts on your successes. Then Friday you were contemplating your apathy and desire for divorce. And now here you are feeling great again.
I wonder how you can try to slow down and just kinda 'be' for a little while. These swings are going to exhaust you.
I think my head is spinning from how fast you seem to go back and forth. A few days ago, you were writing epic posts on your successes. Then Friday you were contemplating your apathy and desire for divorce. And now here you are feeling great again.
I wonder how you can try to slow down and just kinda 'be' for a little while. These swings are going to exhaust you.
Agree 100%. I do think she can sense the change in my attachment though and that causes her to want to bring me back in tight. Whether that is for real or just to manipulate and control only time will tell. What I can tell you is that I'm 75% of the time fine with whatever happens, 15-20% of the time ready to push things forward including towards D of need be. And only 5-10% of the time worried thatI might lose her. And that last % continues to fall over time.
As for GAL, i continue to hang out with friends. I'm working out but work often interferes with that. And I'm busy a lot. Some includes her (church events, D14 events, house viewings), some do not (shooting range, hanging with friends, working out, after work activities). But I rarely have down time. And I'm really in a good place emotionally the majority of the time.
One thing I've also done the last 5 days is haven't been calling or texting her first. I let her reach out first. Amazingly when I do that, the frequency of her initiated contact is goes up dramatically.
Steve, WTH are you doing?
Looking at Lake Homes, really?
Putting out the fire with gasoline?
Slow down buddy, pull back. Dec 23 2017 wasn't that long ago.
Hey, I'm a real estate guy and I can tell you that this will complicate and real progress. We all want it to feel better but it has to have proper reconciliation or you will be back here in a few years. Trust me on this one.
Steve:
Slow down!!! Slow way the F#$K down!!!!
Do not make any decisions on analysis on how things are going for at least 2 weeks - try that for size.
Just be and GAL and do your thing. Let her go and be.
You are all over the map and trying to major life decisions re: Home purchase.
Give yourself at least six-eight months from BD and the reassess things. She has to be absolutely committed to the MR and none of this meek or halfway s#%t will matter.
Has she done a complete 180 and her actions, words, and attitude line up together? And is that happening consistently? Has she shown true humility and remorse?
Until the answers to those questions are unquestionably yes, just stop and get some grounding.
I've seen you give advice to a lot of people here, but are you taking any of that yourself? Slow it down.
One other thing, she is tracking me like a hawk on Life 360 suddenly! LOL We have it mainly to track our D, but I'll get home from some where and say "oh I swung by such-and-such to pick this item up" and she'll say "Yeah I saw you were over by there."
Prior to BD and for 2 months ever she never looked up where I as at.
RR17, thanks for the perspective. However, my sitch is such that a new place will be bought and paid for by me and me only, and only in my name. I won't buy a place that I wouldn't want to live in by myself post D.
Has she done a complete 180 and her actions, words, and attitude line up together? And is that happening consistently? Has she shown true humility and remorse?
Thanks for the advice. Let me answer your questions:
Has she done a complete 180 and her actions, words, and attitude line up together?
Yes. But then again I'm weeks into not snooping and spying so she could just be acting and talking a good game. At this point I don't care. If she is still engaging in online EA activity there is nothing I can do about it. She is saying she no longer wants a D, and she is actively working on the MR (MCing, doing the reading and participating in the exercises).
And is that happening consistently?
Yes. The last 4-6 weeks she's been extremely consistent. Could still just be manipulative, but again I am not snooping or spying so at face-value it looks as if she has 180'd and is committed to it.
Has she shown true humility and remorse? Yes she is showing humility. Especially in the use of her devices and giving me access to them. She has completely 180'd on that. Again, maybe she has gone stealth and has gotten better at hiding things. Nothing I can do about that. Remorse? Not so much. I've stated before that the two things that still bother me is she's never expressed sorrow for her actions, and she still can't passionately kiss me. But that is where I like the advice to slow down. If 3 1/2 months ago you'd have told me we'd be where we are now, if you told me 2 months ago we'd be where we are now, I would never have believed it. If it takes longer for her to be remorseful and longer before we can have the same level intimacy we had years ago, so be it.
RR17, thanks for the perspective. However, my sitch is such that a new place will be bought and paid for by me and me only, and only in my name. I won't buy a place that I wouldn't want to live in by myself post D.
Fine and dandy, but unless I misunderstand, you are looking together, no?
Don't you think this has some bearing on her words and actions?
As long as this pole and carrot are dangled out there you won't get an honest idea of what you are dealing with.
Listen to Maika. Head your own advice and listen to others.
I remember fooling myself into thinking my sitch is not like these others. I want this over quick and I can do this.
Time is not the penalty of an uncommitted or unskilled DBer. It is just part of the equation.
Good change doesn't come fast and fast change isn't any good.
I meant my financial situation. She doesn't work, and I make good money. I didn't mean my sitch with a WW was different. Though I think I caught it earlier than most LBHs.
I am sorry Steve, but it's just not been long enough for a proper turn around and consistent commitment. What are you guys doing in MC?
What are your non-negotiables for the MR to work? Have you put that out in MC?
As RR also said, you have time on your side. Jumping in too fast just kicks the next BD down the road.
Are you in some way trying to buy this new house to keep her around longer? To show that you can provide a lifestyle and so she will change her mind and stay? Maybe you're not overtly doing it with those reasons, but at a subtle level, is this house purchase about her? Think on it.
I don't buy your yes answers to my questions because I have not seen a single sitch turn around that fast. And yours is not exceptional.
Proceed with caution and skepticism. Cannot say enough - you have time. Slow it down.
I do think she can sense the change in my attachment though
Is there a change? To me, it sounds like your mood and opinion and feeling is kind of based on her actions and how she is treating you. So where is the change in your detachment level?
What I can tell you is that I'm 75% of the time fine with whatever happens, 15-20% of the time ready to push things forward including towards D of need be. And only 5-10% of the time worried thatI might lose her.
Man, would I not want to make a huge financial commitment with my relationship in this state.
As for GAL, i continue to hang out with friends. I'm working out but work often interferes with that. And I'm busy a lot. Some includes her (church events, D14 events, house viewings), some do not (shooting range, hanging with friends, working out, after work activities). But I rarely have down time. And I'm really in a good place emotionally the majority of the time.
What new things are you doing? I seem to recall a lot of that was things that you 'used to do' that you are maybe ramping back up. Im interested in what kinds of new developments you are doing.
I do believe even if you put the house solely in your name, since it is acquired during marriage, it becomes a marital asset. I really do hope you have talked to a lawyer about this.
Amoafwl is right. You aren't detached. Your mood and stance changes with the things she does.
I think we all have the same advice. Just be for a little while.
Thanks everyone. Appreciate the perspectives and concern. I'll be alright no matter what. So even if it all blows up, I'm good with it! I really am in a much better emotional state than I used to be, last Thursday morning not withstanding. Again, those moments are by far the exception, not the rule anymore.
I sleep like a rock, my appetite is back to where it was. I rarely even think about the MR when out with my friends, or away from her. Even firing on all cylinders at work again!
So yes, 3 1/2 months is fast in DBing circles, but things are so much better. I am still 180ing. I am still GAL. I am still striving to be the spouse only a fool would leave.
Is this real? Time will tell. I am not all back in (as my "I am thinking about Ding her anyway" moment suggested)!
One day at a time.
Steve, I hope it all works out for you, but seriously, you need to reread your own threads and slow down.
Steve we are all seeing the same things - why are you not seeing it? This is an easy call. Sadly you think you are smarter than the average DBer. I can see it in the advice you try to give others.
Please SLOW DOWN. This is not at all the time for any major decisions. Any T fresh out of training will confirm that.
As for any purchase, let alone a home, unless you are in some rare US state with rare laws, it won't matter at all who's name is on the lease or deed. If you are M you and your W get half the assets and half of any debt. There is no real way around that.
Yeah, I'm really not any smarter than anyone else.
Steve, I can only say after having gone through the process of building a house with my husband and then having him decide to separate that the house brings a lot of sadness and pain. I never even got to live there. I guess you have to ask who would live there if you and your wife don't end up together, and how it would help or hurt your reconciliation if you do? Will it create more pressure or the feeling of being 'locked in' to your new place? Perhaps if you need to buy now as an investment because the real estate market in your area is heating up or interest rates are soon expected to go up then that's a different story. I hope you'll find the clarity you need to make the right decision for you and your wife!
Yeah, I'm really not any smarter than anyone else.
I think people are mostly just saying to be careful. Sure, you may be able to afford a house on your salary, but remember a few things.
1) If you do D, you will have to be able to buy out her equity in the house after splitting the marital funds.So if you buy a 300K house and put 20% down, youd have to give her another 30K out of your pocket to keep it (regardless of whose name is on the deed).
2) In addition to that lump sum payment, you will likely have child and spousal support. For what it's worth, I split custody of 2 kids 50-50, but I make about 2-3x my XW's salary. In my state, that meant I am paying over $1K/month. Depending on the variance in your earnings, you could be up in that range.
Im absolutely not a lawyer and the rules could be different in your state. All I think we're saying is that it is a really big decision even if you would want the house later. I didnt realize my marriage was in such trouble when I bought a new house, but sure enough, my ex left within 6 months of moving in. I guess she was hoping a new house would initiate change, but alas, it didnt.
Thanks Amoafwl. Yes I could afford to buy her out so that isn't an issue. Further, unless her attitude has changed (and since we are in the beginnings of what feels like R we haven't discussed it in a long time) then she wanted my daughter to live with me after D. My guess was so she could live, as sandi likes to say, a GGW lifestyle.
Regardless, I make enough that I could pay support and for the house. I wouldn't be able to fly to the Bahamas anytime I wanted but we all have to make sacrifices.
Today is our 19th wedding anniversary. As my wife moved to lay with her head on my chest after hitting snooze she said "Happy Anniversary."
We are going out tonight for dinner. 19 is the bronze anniversary. I have a bronze gift ordered but it hasn't arrived yet. I am bummed about that.
I really do appreciate everyone's responses, even the 2x4. I do read everyone and consider the advice that is given. So don't hold back!
Ha, ha, Steve85
May is our 19’Th wedding anniversary. We are five months into our physical separation. I miss our head on the chest nights.
I pray that the night is blessed.
I think the message here is to protect your heart.
PS: I would take the home idea off the table.
We had a great time at dinner tonight. Really enjoyed ourselves. Weird because 2 months ago I wouldn't have thought this was possible. Afterwards l said: "Happy Anniversary. and thanks for putting up with me for 19 years." She said: "Your welcome. Happy Anniversary and thanks for putting up with all my crap." She then sighed a heavy, regretful sigh.
I think that's the best you could hope for at this point.
Don't read into it or heighten expectations.
Just be glad it
1) didn't go bad and
2) ended on a decent note.
Seriously, that's a positive - now let it go and move forward as if it did not happen. because this is simply laying a foundational step that you can later build on.
Know what I mean?
25, yes I'm still trying to temper my enthusiasm to positives. And not get down if/when negativity arises. She's been trying not to be negative. In fact, she's even started showing regret about some things that have occurred since BD.
Still waiting/looking for that one moment/ event where she shows remorse for everything, but she's an advoider by nature so that will be difficult in coming.
Steve, things actually sound like they are going quite well. I hate to beat a dead horse but as the others have said, take a deep breath and settle in for the long haul. BD seemingly comes out of nowhere for most of us, but for our WAS it was the final, desperate culmination of a long period of misery and crushed hopes and dreams for something better. Reconciling from that likewise is not a quick process, it takes a lot of time and hard work. Sometimes it'll seem pretty bleak but that's part of it.
Michele says in one of her books to "celebrate the 5%" (I hope I have that percentage right, but the idea is the same regardless). What does that mean? Your WAS may be angry, bitter and a general pain in the butt 95% of the time. But 5% of the time she may be awesome. So you celebrate the 5%, tell her what a great job she's doing and how much you appreciate it. Reinforce the positives and play down the negatives.
My GF and I have been together 3 years and she almost BD'd me because little did I know that what I thought was constructive criticism on my part to her seemed like constant complaining about her. In my pre-DB days I would have argued with her that I was just trying to be helpful, but thanks to DBing I now understand that her PERCEPTION is all that matters to her, not my INTENT. So I have to change her perception. I started by listening and validating every single thing she said. And I changed my approach accordingly. Since then I've celebrated the positives and just shrugged off the negatives, and she is telling me she feels much more loved because of it. And now she asks me how she can do better, so in the end we both get what we want but with none of the negative energy of criticism.
Also what is Steve doing for Steve? How's your GAL going? That should never end, recon or not
Thanks AS. I hear what you are saying about BD being a longtime coming. That was true in my case too, though my W was NOT ready to drop the bomb on me. I forced it when I found the beginnings of an online EA. I've mentioned a few times that my sitch feels a little different because I initiated BD, not her. Though she was still the one to drop the bomb ("I don't want to be married anymore.")
As far as me, I am still engagingin GAL. I think I reconnected with an old friend recently, and he and I continue to hang out and do guy things. We are going to the shooting range tomorrow night. I continue to workout though it has been a little tough to be consistent with the schedule I am keeping with work, church, GAL, and then my responsibilities with my daughter.
Thanks for the reminder on the 5%. Over the last almost 4 months now, my wife's percentage has grown to over 90%. She really has turned the corner since late in February. Though I am still keeping a healthy skepticism about it in case it is all a ploy and she is still just waiting for Plan A to come around. But in general, based on our MC sessions, the work she is putting in, and our interactions being 95% positive I think we are at least headed toward R at the moment.
No real news to report. Last night her and I both did some housework, something she seems to be reengaging in after really not being very interested in keeping a house. She did a lot of laundry, I did some sweeping and vacuuming. She gathered garbage and I took the bags out to the road. All in all it was a fun productive evening. We joked and flirted throughout the night.
I should note that she has gained some weight back, something I couldn't give two cares about. But she keeps mentioning it and isn't happy about it. I am being supportive in a complimentary way. "Don't worry about it, you look great." "Stop being so hard on yourself, you aren't fat." Etc. Always after she makes a derogatory comment about herself.
We continue to do the exercises that the MC suggested. We pray together every night. We kiss, but they are pecks. And we continue to snuggle in bed before going to sleep and after waking up in the morning. The MC mentioned in our last session that she is going to have us read another book. I am interested to see what that is (we'll find out on Tuesday).
MC last night. C really concentrated on me and trying to get to the root of my deeply embedded "my way is right and anyone that doesn't differently is wrong" thinking.
I am being supportive in a complimentary way. "Don't worry about it, you look great." "Stop being so hard on yourself, you aren't fat." Etc. Always after she makes a derogatory comment about herself.
Not saying that you should agree with her when she says those things. But this second quote sounded extremely invalidating to me. How is this portraying 'more of the same'?
A quick diversion for a cautionary tale!
The Story of Socks
Yes socks. Not a cat names Socks. Just the cloth items you put over your feet.
My wife is notoriously hard on socks. She can get a dozen pairs and have them worn out in just a few months. She also hates to shop so she'll either wear the worn socks, or start sneaking into my drawer and wearing mine.
Early in our marriage, I would harp on her about wearing my socks. I am an above average sized human male. She is about an average sized human female. Her heal would fall about to the middle of the sole of my socks, causing a hump in my socks after she'd warn them a while that would then bunch up in my shoe.
Further, she is also notoriously hard on socks (did I already mention that?!) and she would start wearing out my socks in a few months as well.
I would harp on her to either go buy socks, something she deplored doing. And to stop wearing my socks! I logically explained to her that her wearing my socks caused the problems I mentioned above.
Now, being an ignorant alpha male, and knowing very little about psyche of women, I had no idea how much this harping on socks deeply wounded my wife. It made her feel like she was less important to her than my socks! It also made her feel less connected to me since if I couldn't share my socks with her, then how could I share even bigger, more important things with her?
My epiphany came after BD. Shortly after BD she was at a state where she had very few wearable socks. Having realized the dynamic in the paragraph above this one, especially the part about my being an ignorant alpha male, I gladly offered to let her wear my socks! I cannot overstate the impact this had on her.
Her initial reaction was "No, you hate when I wear your socks. You know, I make a heal hump in the middle of them, and wear them out too quickly." I insisted that instead of her wearing holey socks, or going without, that she wear mine. In the meantime, I went onto Amazon and ordered her enough socks to last her a whole year! (Which was about 3 dozen pairs!)
The moral of this story is that sometimes something as simple as socks can make all the difference in a marriage. If I had realized how much more connected, taken care of, and honored she felt by my willingness to let her wear my socks in a pinch, and too buy her what she needed without being asked, I would have done it a longtime ago.
So I encourage those of you that are bad situations in your marriage and posting (or just reading) this board to find out what the "socks" in your marriage is, and to find a way to make your spouse feel honored, taken care of, and therefore, more connected to you using those "socks". And for Pete's sake, do not let something as simple as socks ruin your marriage!
Sorry for typos! I really wish we had a edit function!
Suffering socatash! Seriously though it is a challenge for all of us to find the equivalent item
Suffering socatash! Seriously though it is a challenge for all of us to find the equivalent item
True, but more than likely if you have any "socks" in your MR it will be fairly obvious.
Maybe in your sitch it is your MiL? Could you be more accommodating it when comes to her living with you and your family?
Believe me it's a constant challenge as it's been 10 years now but all in all we just about get along as she is extremely demanding but I will always bend over backwards for her as it's thee right thing to do
Whew. Close call!
I am WFH today, wife came in to talk to me about butter. Our favorite brand (Kerrygold) apparently changed their packaging and it was confusing her (they made the chunks thinner but longer and wider). I forgot I had the board up on my screen.
She leaned over and I said "What are you doing?" She said, playfully: "Just looking!" I couldn't do too much or risk being suspicous. She said: "Dazed and Confused? Okay I got to go!" (She hates that movie.)
LOL
Whew, that was close.
Our favorite brand (Kerrygold) apparently changed their packaging and it was confusing her (they made the chunks thinner but longer and wider).
Steve85,
KerryGold used to have the half pound brick and the half pound tub. Within the past couple of years, they added the quarter pound sticks (two per pack). You can still get the half pound brick.
Our favorite brand (Kerrygold) apparently changed their packaging and it was confusing her (they made the chunks thinner but longer and wider).
Steve85,
KerryGold used to have the half pound brick and the half pound tub. Within the past couple of years, they added the quarter pound sticks (two per pack). You can still get the half pound brick.
Yep these are the 1/2 lb bricks, but the new ones aren't as thick, they are longer and wider. Same weight though. SHe didn't notice that they were thinner, just that they were wider and longer.
Steve85,
Confusion over butter bricks and sticks led to the demise of my marriage. And, one time, I accidentally got frozen yogurt instead of regular ice cream. That was the final straw.
When my W moved out she told me I needed to change my socks more often......so Steve the moral of my story is socks.....SMH
Oh and in the same breathe she told me I was the best sex she had ever had.......really SMH.
I should note that she has gained some weight back, something I couldn't give two cares about. But she keeps mentioning it and isn't happy about it. I am being supportive in a complimentary way. "Don't worry about it, you look great." "Stop being so hard on yourself, you aren't fat." Etc. Always after she makes a derogatory comment about herself.
Validation fail! You think you are doing the right thing but you are not, as Amoafwl said you are invalidating her feelings. Here is what is important- SHE FEELS BAD ABOUT HOW SHE LOOKS. What is her FEELING in that statement? BAD. And your response is that she is wrong. Her feelings are WRONG. I am emphasizing this to get the point across. Validation is all about understanding what she is feeling and offering her SUPPORT for those feelings. She said she feels fat? Ask her how that makes her feel. She says she feels sad that she can't lose weight, you say "I'm sorry you're feeling sad, is there anything I can do to help?" Validation is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining/ etc. It is simply acknowledging feelings.
I am not saying not to compliment her, you should be all means. But when she is expressing feelings/ emotions, don't ever tell her "it's nothing" or "don't worry about it" or "stop being hard on yourself" because none of those are supporting/ validating statements.
I think we talked about Retrouvaille a while back? Did you check into it? That program will supercharge your validation skills.
I should note that she has gained some weight back, something I couldn't give two cares about. But she keeps mentioning it and isn't happy about it. I am being supportive in a complimentary way. "Don't worry about it, you look great." "Stop being so hard on yourself, you aren't fat." Etc. Always after she makes a derogatory comment about herself.
Validation fail! You think you are doing the right thing but you are not, as Amoafwl said you are invalidating her feelings. Here is what is important- SHE FEELS BAD ABOUT HOW SHE LOOKS. What is her FEELING in that statement? BAD. And your response is that she is wrong. Her feelings are WRONG. I am emphasizing this to get the point across. Validation is all about understanding what she is feeling and offering her SUPPORT for those feelings. She said she feels fat? Ask her how that makes her feel. She says she feels sad that she can't lose weight, you say "I'm sorry you're feeling sad, is there anything I can do to help?" Validation is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining/ etc. It is simply acknowledging feelings.
I am not saying not to compliment her, you should be all means. But when she is expressing feelings/ emotions, don't ever tell her "it's nothing" or "don't worry about it" or "stop being hard on yourself" because none of those are supporting/ validating statements.
I think we talked about Retrouvaille a while back? Did you check into it? That program will supercharge your validation skills.
Thanks I will work on this. And check into Retrouvaille again. I did look it up a while back. I guess I feel that when it comes to weight (and she certainly is NOT fat) it is always a tough line to toe with women. Is she calling herself fat so that I will rush in and defend how she looks? Or is he really expressing how she feels? When it comes to that topic it is all so tricky.
I have done a fairly good job of validating her feelings in other areas, but when she gets onto weight validating feels to me like agreeing.
There is a Retrouvaille weekend coming up near me. I will bring it up at our MC session on Tuesday. See if she's willing.
Just a quick update. A few weeks ago I started this habit where I get ready for work (get my shower, etc), then I get back in bed an have her lay her head on my chest while I run my fingers through her hair (she loves having her hair played with) and stroke her face, and rub her back and arms.
I've never been able to really tell if she likes it or not. I do it because I like to do it, but though she's never objected, she's never initiated it on her own either.
This morning I got ready, then slid back into bed and pulled her over to me. I did all that I mentioned above, and then at the appropriate time I said, "well you should probably should make sure our daughter is up". She slowly got out of bed and went down the hall.
I got up to look out our front window to check on the pump I put out last night. We got a ton of rain over the weekend and have a lake on our property in front of the house. She came back in the room a half minute later and said "why did you go away?!". I chuckled, and went to slide back into bed. She hopped back in bed and snuggled right back up to me.
I see that as a huge step. We still have some issues to work through, like her still not being able to passionately kiss me, and she still struggles with showing affection like she used to (rubbing my back, taking my hand, etc). But the above shows the continued improvement I am seeing as I continue to work to make my changes since BD permanent. I think almost 4 months in she is starting to trust they are real.
Steve, those sound like great signs of improvement. It's commendable you've been able to sustain the changes you've been making and are able to finally see some results.
So I stumbled. I've mentioned to other posters here that when you start to get your mojo back, be on guard because you can spiral at any moment. Well I did.
I opened the singing app, and went to my wife's profile. The app works like this: 1 user can "open" a collaboration (which is a duet) where they only sing a part of the song, and then collaborators can "join" the song and sing the other part. So even though you are "singing" together, there is no real interaction between the singers.
But then you can go back and make comments on the songs others have completed with you. And they can respond.
Well I noticed yesterday she had joined a collaboration with OM1. She has done this a few times since they were no longer in contact elsewhere. Usually his comments were very formal. Things like "Thanks for joining me. You sound great." With emojis like hands applauding, things like that. Her responses were equally formal. "You're welcome." etc.
Well on this collaboration his comment was a bit more personal. Something along the lines of "Hey stranger! Thanks for joining, always good to hear your voice. How are you doing?" Her response was "You're welcome. I'm ok. Hope you are too." He came back with "Oh good, I'm really glad. Good to hear from you."
That got me a little concerned. I know how EAs work and I know it can take one little reach out to get things started again. This was yesterday and I resisted the temptation to bring it up.
However, I noticed that there was another guy that she collaborates with quite a bit. And I started seeing their comments were a little chummy. Things that sounded like inside jokes. Nothing overt, but given her history, red flags none the less. This was today I saw a couple of comments that again were really innocent, but got me wondering if "more" could be going on. Remember, this is the way she met OM1, potential OM2, so my hackles can get up fairly easily.
So I called her. Asking her about the second guy, not OM1. She didn't get defensive, though I think she was a little disappointed. She was clear that there was nothing going on, that they rarely private messaged, and that the bulk of their interactions are public in the collaboration comments. I told her the red flag for me is that he has her tagged on his profile, and the other 5 are all attractive women that he has tagged. She has admitted that multiple people told her how this online karaoke thing was a huge pick up site for mostly guys (of course) trolling for women. But that potential OM2 had said he had multiple women contact him telling him what they wanted to do to him. (I take this with a grain of salt since this guy is a major tool and I have no doubt would make this up to make himself sound like a stud.)
On then went on to OM1's comments. She insisted that he had not reached out beyond the comments. Obviously they hadn't been in touch before since he called her "stranger" in his initial comment (unless I am being played, but it seems genuine since they had no idea I would even see it).
She then said she was going to go get things done around the house and with our insurance claim (which she has let languish for two months now and may have lost the chance at getting her $5k in stolen camera equipment replaced). And that there was laundry that needed to be done and other housework (she's done very little housework in the weeks since BD, I've been doing the bulk of it, which I guess was even the case before BD).
I'm an idiot. I should have come here and aired what I found and had you all talk me off the ledge before going to her. I feel so bad about myself now. I feel so rotten and like a failure. Here I am telling other people how they should handle their sitches and I can't even handle mine!
Cautionary tale folks, your emotions can spiral even when you think you are over that.
Oh and she has since taken screen shots of her and the second guy's PMs on the app, and texted them too me. She said she felt bad because she made it sound like they hadn't PM'd. All of the PMs were innocent. Talking about his daughter singing on the app, and stuff like that.
ok, bring the 2x4s.
Steve, this is a minor slip, and she seems to be handling it well. Dont sweat it.you have been my staunchest supporter on here, and I know you have what it takes to do it!.
Messages like these definitively make me really sit and think about how I will be when I am finally back in touch with my WW once the TRO goes away. I've learned so much great info here, i just wish i had found all you guys back in Oct when it would have really mattered! That being said, I cant help but dwell on whether or not i will be able to keep strong when her and I finally interact or if I'm going to fold like a manila folder. If she decides to turn on the charm after all this cold absence i may be weak.
Before i go on for ages here Steve, i guess my point is that i have seen your ability to keep your cool in your sitch as a point of motivation and inspiration. Dont let these minor interactions mess up your resolve.
You know what needs to be done, and not done.
You got this man.
Be the rock in the tide, let the waves wash around you. Endure.
Strength to you Brother.
Steve, this is a minor slip, and she seems to be handling it well. Dont sweat it.you have been my staunchest supporter on here, and I know you have what it takes to do it!.
Messages like these definitively make me really sit and think about how I will be when I am finally back in touch with my WW once the TRO goes away. I've learned so much great info here, i just wish i had found all you guys back in Oct when it would have really mattered! That being said, I cant help but dwell on whether or not i will be able to keep strong when her and I finally interact or if I'm going to fold like a manila folder. If she decides to turn on the charm after all this cold absence i may be weak.
Before i go on for ages here Steve, i guess my point is that i have seen your ability to keep your cool in your sitch as a point of motivation and inspiration. Dont let these minor interactions mess up your resolve.
You know what needs to be done, and not done.
You got this man.
Be the rock in the tide, let the waves wash around you. Endure.
Strength to you Brother.
OK thanks brother! I appreciate the encouragement. I will do better from this point on. Not sure what possessed me to check her singing app profile, I had done very well not doing that for several weeks. So I will get back on the horse!
Trust me bud i get it. I need to be super careful with the whole RO factor and i still stupidly sent my WW a friend request on snapchat the other day.
There are days i am literally starving for any iota of attention from her, forget attention, just communication.
Other days i am resolved and doing great.
We have another court case in two weeks and this may be the first time i actually see her in person since the end of Jan.
Im legitimately scared.
Steve, just read all your threads. You have shown so much endurance. in fact i like your signature too, its goal oriented and far from being in limbo. As you asked on one of your posts, I am remembering you in my prayers today. Hope we all find the strength and light at the end of the treacherous tunnel.
Thank you arshi! I will keep you and your family in my prayers as well.
Small update: So it seems that not too much damage was done. She was very upbeat last night when I arrived home. We had an appointment to attend and then went to dinner. We were are old selves talking about any and everything. I apologized for my probing and she insisted that she understood and had done this to herself. It gives me a lot of hope that she is not expecting complete trust so soon.
She continues to flirt with me which I take as a good sign. She admits to not having spent any time on the MC homework even though we were supposed to start a new book. I bought it on Amazon and shared with her and started reading it myself. I can only control me!
The whole thing is still kind of weird to me. W is sending naked pictures of herself to other people, flirting with multiple OMS, talking about moving out and being on her own, etc etc. And now, it seems like all of a sudden everything is....ok, I guess?
Im not suggesting that she has necessarily gone underground with her flirting or wayward behavior. From the sounds of it, it likely has subsided. I just dont really see an active change from her side. She still is playing on the apps all day, youre still doing the brunt of the housework, youre still engaged in buying a new house...
Maybe everything is great, I dont really know. You say that you "caught it early" and maybe thats all it was. But it feels somehow....fishy?...to me. Like shes getting everything she wants now, but once she doesnt, then youre going to be back in the same place again in a few months or years. Usually, when there have been changes in sitches around here, they are marked by significant events or discussions. Usually they are marked by the WS really making their intents clear. In this case, it seems like everyone just....dropped everything and swept it away like it didnt happen.
Maybe Im missing something or maybe I just have a more skeptical world view. Im just having a really hard time making sense of how you can go from being ready to divorce then back to everything good in the span of a couple days. Im not sure what the right attitude or action is for you. Id say if things are "working" then keep doing them. Im just worried that it feels like everything was covered over but not really resolved and that stuff will continue to resurface time and again until there are clear changes from her side.
The whole thing is still kind of weird to me. W is sending naked pictures of herself to other people, flirting with multiple OMS, talking about moving out and being on her own, etc etc. And now, it seems like all of a sudden everything is....ok, I guess?
Im not suggesting that she has necessarily gone underground with her flirting or wayward behavior. From the sounds of it, it likely has subsided. I just dont really see an active change from her side. She still is playing on the apps all day, youre still doing the brunt of the housework, youre still engaged in buying a new house...
Maybe everything is great, I dont really know. You say that you "caught it early" and maybe thats all it was. But it feels somehow....fishy?...to me. Like shes getting everything she wants now, but once she doesnt, then youre going to be back in the same place again in a few months or years. Usually, when there have been changes in sitches around here, they are marked by significant events or discussions. Usually they are marked by the WS really making their intents clear. In this case, it seems like everyone just....dropped everything and swept it away like it didnt happen.
Maybe Im missing something or maybe I just have a more skeptical world view. Im just having a really hard time making sense of how you can go from being ready to divorce then back to everything good in the span of a couple days. Im not sure what the right attitude or action is for you. Id say if things are "working" then keep doing them. Im just worried that it feels like everything was covered over but not really resolved and that stuff will continue to resurface time and again until there are clear changes from her side.
Amoafwl, everything here is fair comment. And I don't have a lot of answers for you. I, too, was little surprised how she seemed to turn around fairly quickly. And I think a good bit of skepticism is good.
Here are somethings I can tell you:
1) I started letting go on day 3 after BD. It appeared to have a profound effect on how she was approaching things. She started to hedge her decision immediately. As if she wasn't sure why suddenly I seemed okay with everything. However, even in the letting go, she was seeing that I had 180'd on a lot of the things I had been doing wrong. She also made no effort after mid-January to move forward with her initial plan to get a job, get an apartment, and get a D.
2) We got into MC about 3 weeks after BD. And while I do believe initially she agreed and started going to be able to say later "we tried", the MC was fairly good and breaking down that barrier and getting my wife engaged. My wife did the homework and reading most of the weeks, and the MC was able to fully engage her in the sessions including a very intense session where my wife and her emotional scars were the focus of the session.
3) We had fairly big incident that I documented here where I asked to see her phone, unlocked, and even got her to install and log into some apps that she was uninstalling after usage so I wouldn't see them. This was shortly after the discovery of her dating profile on a dating site that I confronted her about, and she was still using that app to send messages to guys, all were way younger and had no interest in her. All of this came to her realizing that she had some issues to deal with. She cancelled the dating site memberships (she had 2), uninstalled the online games that she had been using to message people, and even uninstalled the karaoke app. She went through a pretty severe depression for 2 days after that. She did eventually reinstall the singing app with the promise that she would control the messaging capabilities better. This was coupled with me telling her I had spoken to a lawyer, and that I was ready to sit our daughter down and discuss her plan, a step she didn't seem ready to do.
4) In mid-Feb,shortly after #3 above, we went on a marriage retreat. This was faith-based and it seem to really sink into her that she had committed to me for life in front of God, and had a responsibility to herself, me, our daughter, and most importantly, to God to make the marriage work. As I said, this was coupled by an incident at lunch on the Saturday of the weekend where she was clearly rebelling against all of it. It was last act of defiance she has outwardly shown, and she followed it up by becoming more affectionate and seemed to come back to the MR afterward. Including telling me after our next counseling session that she wanted to stay in the marriage (first time she had expressed that since bomb day).
5) Several marathon sex sessions. And while many were skeptical of these at the time, I think it really showed her that she didn't have to go outside of the marriage to satisfy her carnal desires. That as our MR improved, as her attraction to me continued to comeback, as the positive changes I was making were seeming to be permanent, that she could enjoy sex within the bounds of the MR, instead of needing to go out of like she was yearning to do. This was followed by, a couple of weeks ago, her admitting that her insatiable sexual desire that she had been struggling with going way back before BD (and without me "there" to satisfy it due to the state of our MR), having abated back to a more normal level, though still higher than it had been in most of the years of our marriage. (Note we have been having sex at about the rate of once a week. Prior to BD we averaged once every 4 months, and had long periods (a couple spanning years) of no sex.
6) After 9 months of saying she had no interest in another house and had given up on the house search, suddenly she reinstalled Zillow and began house hunting again. (The background on that was that we had been searching for about 3 years until May of last year, for another house but she gave up when her, my daughter, and I could never seem to agree on a house.) Remember, at bomb day she had been looking for her own apartment, so this was a profound change.
So all of these cumulatively seemed to add up. Along with my continued differentiation/detachment (though I wasn't always successful at it), get a life, and as I slowly back off pressure/pursuit these things seemed to get her to come around to wanting to stay in the MR. Something she said to me and said to the MC in one of our sessions.
Now to your point, there are still some reflags.
1) Her casual contact with OM1 and potential OM2 on the singing app. She has told me I could give her a list of people to not have contact with on the app but 1) I would have to take her word for it. 2) I am afraid of the old "I want what is forbidden" instinct to kick in and 3) I have no desire to be with someone that I can't trust and that doesn't have enough judgement to know what is acceptable and what is not.
2) The fact that she still can't kiss me passionately, even during sex. I brought this up to the MC. The MC cautioned patience in this area, that after years of a broken relationship it would take time for full intimacy to return between. But that she feels we are on the right path and eventually that will return if we continue to put in the work to heal the MR.
3) She has shown the ability to go stealth in the past. And though she seems to be open to transparency now, I do have to question whether or not she has gone even more stealth with her messaging. Though it feels so differently than it did before BD, and for the 2 months after BD, maybe she has just gotten better at it? I mean she doesn't sit in parking lots for long periods of time anymore. I work from home on Fridays, and during Jan and most of Feb, she'd make an excuse to run to the store. I suspected she was sitting in her car on one of the app during this time since it would take her so long. However, recently, including this morning, she drops our daughter off for school and is back home in 10 minutes. So I am seeing really big differences in her when she was in full waywardness mode.
What you said that I like the most is that if this isn't handled properly we could end up here again in months or even years. And that is a big big fear of mine. This is why I need to make sure my 180s are permanent, and that we work through MC together to come to an understanding of the reasons for our issues, and how to fix them long-term. The MC has stated that full transparency will have to come at some point, but that we were too early in the process for me to demand that right now (this was in early Feb.). I think knowing each others unlock PINs and password will be something that will eventually need to occur.
Thanks for your insights Amoafwl. Understand that I am hopeful, but still on guard. But we seem to be in a place where we have both made progress. Time will tell if it is real or not.
Also, the fact that I'm still here and still posting is proof that I'm not convinced.
So things continue to deteriorate with my daughter.
We got a call on Friday that my daughter had been disruptive in class during independent study. We took her phone, laptop, PS4 away. She had a tablet she had won that we forgot about and was able to stay in contact with her friends. She just got off being grounded for two weeks for talking back an disrespect.
Well today I got notified she'd logged into her Google account from another device. Logged into her account and found some messages that were concerning.
Called my W, she got onto my daughter's snapchat. Pretty much a spew of terrible language on my daughter's part. On top of it she hates my guts. Ever since I started to plug back into the family, she has rebelled against it. She has said multiple times she wants me to go back to the way I was (distant, uninvolved, etc).
I don't know how to fix this. My wife is being great. Just got off the phone with her. I think I am going to have to go home early and deal with it. Also she has been very against getting a new house and a move. Could it be her way of trying to sabotage that?
This is worse than what happened with my W. I don't know what to do to fix this.
W and I are taking a "wait-and-see" approach to this right now. I know this is not a parenting site but any input, especially from a Christian perspective, would be appreciated.
Note: D has no idea of the problems W and I had and the end of last year, earlier this year. All she knows is that starting in late Dec. I started to engage more with the family and 180'd on my isolation that had occurred over the course of the previous 4 years. She has stated she doesn't like the change and wants everything to "go back to the way it was". Not really sure why that is except maybe she is used to having my W all to herself?
P.S. This feels worse than my marital problems ever felt.
Steve, its really hard when they go from Daddy's little girl to this teenage alien hellspawn. I suspect there is a lot going on in her life and she's having trouble sorting things out. She's probably striving for independence, testing the limits of your authority, confused by the changes you've made, concerned for the security of her parents marriage and how it will effect her (this is probably a big one), as well as dealing with changes within her body. Some of this is just normal teenage angst, and pushing limits enroute to adulthood.
Individually, these are big issues, and combined with a troubled marriage, can be overwhelming. You say she has no idea of the problems in your marriage, but I doubt that. She's probably picked up on more than you think. She's watching her world crumble and has no way to cope.
I've had issues with my D16. Not quite the same, but similar.
I'm at a loss as well. I don't have any answers, but I'm doing what I can to make her feel safe, loved, give her attention, making sure I spend time with her, giving her what guidance I can, and punishing inappropriate behavior when necessary. We also have her seeing her school counselor once a week, which seems to help a lot. She was resistant to that at first, but now seems fairly eager to go.
I suggest just doing what you can to be a good parent. If she's had a measure of independence, I suspect she will resist you exerting greater control, but she will get used to it. Be consistent.
There was a book I read that helped.... "How to talk so your teens will listen, and how to listen so your teen will talk" or something like that. Parts of it were not terribly useful, but there is some good advice in there.
Jim Thank you! I literally had tears in my eyes reading your response, good to know others have dealt with it. I will pick up that book and read it.
I know this is not a parenting site
I came here so many times with parenting questions that related to my divorce. Asking people who have been through it is a good thing, not something to worry about.
D has no idea of the problems W and I had and the end of last year, earlier this year.
It's possible this is true, but kids are far more observant than you think, and you have a young teenage girl. They pay attention to EVERYTHING, it's a necessary skill for them socially. It's VERY likely that she knows a LOT more than you or your wife think she does.
All she knows is that starting in late Dec. I started to engage more with the family and 180'd on my isolation that had occurred over the course of the previous 4 years. She has stated she doesn't like the change and wants everything to "go back to the way it was". Not really sure why that is except maybe she is used to having my W all to herself?
Think about it this way: teenagers live in a sea of change. Their bodies are changing. Their friendships are changing. School is different, their interests are different, BOYS are different. That's a HELL of a lot to deal with. Now HOME is changing, too. Mom and dad are having problems, and that's SCARY to a kid (even if you're an adult, watching your parents have martial problems has a huge impact). Now dad is acting different. VERY different. Why?
Maybe she's angry that you weren't acting like this all along and her behavior is showing it. Maybe she's afraid it won't be consistent, and she's testing to see if you'll withdraw if she misbehaves. Maybe she really is jealous that "she doesn't have your W all to herself" anymore. She might not even know the answer.
"Wait and see" probably isn't the best approach. You're in counseling, right? So ask your C for some advice. Maybe your daughter could benefit from some counseling herself. Maybe she needs a safe space, too.
Steve, I agree with Jim that your daughter is going through a transitional period, and around her age is usually the time they push back against their father and bond more with their mother. My two daughters are grown now but I went through it with both of them and it was difficult, confusing and stressful. A book that I found helpful was "Yes, Your Teen Is Crazy!" It goes into the physiological changes that teens go through and how it can lead to erratic, unpredictable, totally out-of-character behavior. The good news is that it usually is just a phase and if dealt with properly will actually improve your relationship.
As a side note, I can't stress enough that "dealing with it properly" is critical. I have a good friend that had a daughter that thought he hung the moon, and he in return would do anything for her. She went through this rebellious stage and he completely shut her out of his life. She is grown now, happily married and has a child. They never did fully repair their relationship. You've got to be firm with her but you have also got to be LOVING. She will fight your love every step of the way while inside being grateful that you never gave up on her.
Thank you EastTN, good advice. We will bring it up in our next counseling session.
AS, thanks, I will check out that book. I played PS4 with her last night (playing video games for me is liking watching paint dry, but it was about her, not me) and she seemed to respond very well to it.
She came home early from school today, some type of stomach virus or food poisoning as apparently she threw up at school. I was hoping to continue are game tonight, we'll see how she is feeling.
How is she feeling?
What game are you playing with her?
She is feeling better. The game I played is Disney Infinity. We like teaming up on the adventures in the game. I had to stop at the grocery store so I picked her up some grape juice (her request) and a bouquet of tiger lillies to try to cheer her up. I am trying. It absolutely crushes me that she is telling her friends that she hates her dad.
Quick update, W and I were up most of the night reading through my daughter's text and social media messages. W is very concerned that sometime within the last 3 year our daughter was molested in some way, even if just by inappropriate touching.
It is a long story as to when and how we suspect this could have occurred, but suffice it to say that we need to get to the bottom of this. We will be bringing it up to our MC on Tuesday to see if she has any suggestions and referrals for a good teen crisis faith-based counselor. We also have some reason to suspect she might be cutting.
Since I struggled with that as a teen, to see allusions to this on her phones (memes, etc) is disturbing. Plus she has all of the other markers (long-sleeves even in warm weather), etc.
If you are a person of faith, please, please, please keep us in your prayers.
Quick update, W and I were up most of the night reading through my daughter's text and social media messages. W is very concerned that sometime within the last 3 year our daughter was molested in some way, even if just by inappropriate touching.
. We also have some reason to suspect she might be cutting.
Since I struggled with that as a teen, to see allusions to this on her phones (memes, etc) is disturbing. Plus she has all of the other markers (long-sleeves even in warm weather), etc.
Steve, I can imagine how hard it is to deal with a teen age daughter while DBing, how are you both planning to handle this with your D? Be it as your MR is today, when it comes to kids being parents comes above everything else. I hope you are able to support and help your daughter as a single unit. You and your D are in my prayers tonight.
Steve, I hope things are getting better with your daughter. This can't be easy on her, and you either. You're in my thoughts and prayers...
Steve
You have responded to many of my posts and I appreciate it.
As I read through your recent sitch and all the good advice I think about my teen daughters.
I'm praying for you and that some clarity and relief might find you.
Thanks everyone. Took my daughter to work with me yesterday for Take Your Child To Work day. She enjoyed it (even though she is still grounded from her phone), and we had a great time, and it seemed like our old relationship was back. Last night when I kissed her on the forehead and hugged her goodnight, I said ILY, she said "love you too". Which she hadn't been typically saying.
Obviously dealing with a teenager is similar to dealing with a WAS/WS, it is a roller-coaster ride. Her messages to her friends showed a lot of anger at me for being withdrawn and distant for years. I may have said but one of her direct quotes was "I was excited for him to get home and he acted like he didn't exist, now he wants to have a relationship with me, well its too late!"
W did have a discussion with her 2 days ago and explained that I can't change the past, but I can change from this point forward. She said it seemed to have an effect, at least she said my D looked to be thinking about what she said. We'll see.
We are going to have a sit down with her tomorrow morning, and calmly discuss what we found and discuss moving forward. And discuss getting her into counseling so she can deal with some of this.
Thank you all for thinking about me and praying for us.
Steve - you are in my thoughts. I am also dealing with a teenager through this as well. I have gotten him some counseling to help him with the issues he is going through regarding our S and just teenage life in general.
Please keep us posted.
Please don't chat with D about this. Let her have her privacy.
Remember the lighthouse strategy?
The picnic by the lighthouse is what you need right now.
You are doing great on it ok. Be patient let her develop her thoughts and feelings with dad.
This is where loving detachment works wonders and setting boundaries for you and D.
Children want to love their parents want boundaries.
It's ok. She is allowed her feelings and if she wants someone to talk to then there is IC.
And family therapy too.
You have the gift of time.
Relax it's going great.
V
I understand this is cutting etc and possible molestation and what I am saying is controversial. Before anyone leaps on my post I am not saying ignore it.
Just build with D and let it unfold without drama. Consult first before you have an intervention as this can backfire on you.
V
Multiple teachers now reaching out to us that her class work has dropped precipitously in quality this semester. She got good grades last semester.
One teacher even told us that her group of friends, normally very high achievers, have all taken similar turns for the worse in their grades as well. Plus she is expecting her iPhone back tomorrow.
So V, I appreciate your advice but this is all coming to a head very quickly. We are going to have a meeting with her teachers next week, all of whom are concerned for her grades. She has a goal of getting into a particular university and with this latest the hopes of that are fading quickly.
Oh, and Wednesday my wife took her to the store to get her some new clothing she needed. My wife initiated a conversation about if she'd ever been touched inappropriately. D laughed and so "no, why would you think that? Trust me if anyone did that to me I would have either told you and dad, or I'd be in jail!"
My wife then asked her if she was depressed. My D said "Why would I be, our life is perfect? Look at it compared to my friends."
So apparently she has no clue as to the recent problems in the MR. Either that or she is holding it all very close to the vest.
Steve, just caught up with your thread. Please know I'm keeping you and your D in my prayers.
Steve, I'm sorry to hear of the challenges your daughter is facing. It's fortunate you and your wife are together to work through this as a family with your daughter. I hope your daughter can receive the help she needs to get back to a healthy and happy lifestyle. I have all these concerns about my daughter when she gets older. It's a difficult stage!
Steve, are things better at home? How is your D?
arsh, thanks for asking. Things are better, but we are going to sit her down to talk to her tonight.
She studied for her math test both Saturday and yesterday, first time in weeks she proactively, on her own, studied for anything school related. So that is a good sign.
However, she is about to have a lot of her freedoms curtailed. She isn't going to like it. But she knows the threat of pulling her out of school to home-school or do an online high school is real, so I think she will get on board with the lack of freedoms to stay in her school with her friends.
A couple of her friends haven't been very good influences so we still will keep that option on the table for next year.