This is unfortunately a continuation of several old threads that had to be pulled to protect myself. I had reason to believe spouse had info on this and was likely en-route if not already on this forum. Apologies to everyone, in time I will ask for those threads to be restored but in meantime I will be posting what I can from those so the information isn't lost.
Thank you to cadet, sandi2, LH19, kml, AnotherStander, Gordie, AndrewP, Maximus, Vanilla, Vapo, joejoe1, Jim1234, Ginger1, Joseph9, Holding, Kaizen, Tread, pinn, Kaizen, Maika, and many others.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
_________________________
Me-63, D31,S30
I still challenge you to really examine what it is you are fighting against by pushing for a trial separation in advance of a divorce.
The way I understand it, she will be living alone and seeing OM. My guess is that she isn’t going to think any more fondly of you just because you are labeling the time apart as a trial separation.
So what EXACTLY are you fighting against?
You call Divorce a finality. Is it, in your mind? Does it have to be?
Sitch recap:
W wants out and OM (they believe they are perfect for each other) both leaving Spouse to be together).
W move out soon
many dead ends on DB prior to finding MWD and still some continue R/A talk occasionally.
I still have problem with Defending self (esp. when W lies or twists facts).
Working hard on learning Validating: still working on doing it right and consistently.
GAL'ing: but had some derails listening to W
Not planning to cancel GAL anymore unless it's for Children
R not likely; she's mad about mountain of past issues mostly (ignoring, verbal, div. labor, being emotionally unavail.) and AP/OM provides ALOT of comfort and joy which she cannot get enough of AND refuses to stop A even though recognizes it's wrong on so many levels.
A is clandestine until both have S and possibly D and until they no longer work together on daily basis (never disclosed R to Employer which is a company policy if you work together with someone).
Very few people know, but shortly this begins going public right before W moves out.
S/D begin at that time.
W deathly afraid of A becoming public. Wants No disclosure of anything I did or she did to Parents/Family/Anyone (She never told about any of my past behaviors now wants that same courtesy for her 1 "tiny" mistake.
I agree completely with Friends
Children Older S16 should be told something... she want's nothing other than D and we love them and want them to be happy and it's not about them at all.
Parents: Her Parents vs My Parents. W wants same/same no disclosure of anything. Afraid if Parents knew it'd get out and it'd have the same effect as if I told everyone... It would destroy her.
Know nothing positive comes from A going Public making R harder
Made many personal changes (virtually all bad behaviors on my end gone since shortly after BD). Remaining issue: balance, GALing consistently, Putting Kids first (W was first since BD), and stopping Pressure (R/M talk etc.)
that said we have weeks where we can go with just co-existing side by side being extra polite etc.
Know she needs to leave but don't want family kids to be damaged by this... know there's no way to prevent it. trying to make peace with that.
That's it in a nutshell.
Oh forgot to add:
Improved self and continue to do so for me alot (weight, fitness, eating, drinking, style, personal grooming, etc.)
Working to be better me in any R strongly.
Nuggets of wisdom from pulled posts:
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Wisdom:
Right now the harder your try to hold onto to her the more she is going to try to get away.
What should you do? Continue to make changes and become the man you want to be for yourself. Learn from your mistakes. Read books on relationships, self help, parenting. Reconnect with family, old friends, take up a hobby, exercise.
This is a marathon and not a sprint.
Be the best dad that you can be and keep your focus on yourself and your children.
I promise you that it does get better and you will survive and thrive if you are willing to put the work in.
Good job on being busy/GALing. She's asking you questions because A) since she cheated on you she automatically thinks you could be cheating on her and B) because she really just wants you to be sitting waiting for her as Plan B in case it doesn't work out with OM. DON'T do anything she could blame you for later (like actually dating) but DO go out with friends and try new things, and don't feel you have to give her a detailed explanation every time you do. (It's good for her to feel a pang of jealousy).
Resign yourself to the likelihood that she will move out after the holidays - she has a lot invested in this OM and he already dumped his wife for her, so he's going to be pressuring her to follow through. But that doesn't mean game over - she's already noticing your positive changes. Keep being a great dad, a little mysterious, and congrats on the weight loss (the affair diet is brutal but it works! I swear I'm gonna study it some day). Avoid pursuing but it's ok to try to speak her love languages in sneaky ways (If you haven't read Chapman's book on the Five Love Languages, it's highly recommended and a quick read).
For instance, if her love language is words of affirmation, it's ok to say things like "that's a nice blouse" or "that color looks good on you". Nothing too personal.
If her love language is quality time, even though she doesn't want to spend time with you, just stop whatever you're doing when she speaks to you and listen intently. (Quality time was one of my ex's love languages, and I used to be busily mulitasking when he'd come home and want to talk to me. Once I started DBing I'd stop and just listen. We're divorced now but had DB reconciled successfully for several years before the divorce.)
If her love language is gifts, make sure the KIDS buy her something really thoughtful for Xmas.
If it's acts of service - sounds like you're already doing that by picking up the slack at home.
If it's physical touch - that one's harder since she doesn't really want you to touch her. Still, there might be an opportunity for a playful bump as you pass her in the kitchen or some such. (NOTE - ONLY if this is her love language.)
...
talking to her at all about the relationship or about why she shouldn't leave is a losing game at this point. Owning your own faults in the marriage and apologizing for them is good, and it sounds like you've done that. The one small "truth dart" you might shoot her way, when the opportunity arises (i.e. NOT when you're angry or in a fight) is this one:
"If he'll cheat WITH you, he'll cheat ON you".
She'll be mad you said it, but I promise you, she'll think about it. She's trading in a loyal (if previously difficult) husband for a cheater with low morals. Some part of her will be wondering if she's making a mistake.
Also - remember, OM is pressuring her at the moment. You should be the opposite: kind, understanding, "I love you and think you're making a mistake but if you feel you have to do this I won't stand in your way".
Keep working on being the best version of you that you can be. Either she'll eventually realize what she's missing, or you'll recover from this marriage in a much better place to move forward and have a happy life with or without her.
Postpone S/D if it coincides with special annual events (Birthday, Xmas, etc.) so children don't associate that with S/D going forward.
Nuggets:
Well, just try and understand that right now she is DONE and she has NO ATTRACTION to you AT ALL. She doesn't like you and may even hate you. Everything you do to try and get her back repulses her. She is thinking "why couldn't he do this when I asked him to, instead of waiting until now when it's too late??" There's a lot of anger and resentment there. Nothing you do is going to help, but there's a lot you can do that will hurt your sitch. ESPECIALLY pursuing. Believe me we hear that a lot- "I have to pursue her because I distanced during the M" but no, that is not a 180 that she welcomes right now. Her feelings will change over time, but she's going to feel this way for as long as you keep pursuing. If you can pull back, stop the pursuit, leave her alone and work on yourself then eventually she may see you in a better light.
...
"I love you and think you're making a mistake but if you feel you have to do this I won't stand in your way".
Yeah it's called opening the cage door. Right now she feels trapped by you and feels the only way out is separation and divorce. If you let her know you're not going to interfere (and you quit all the pursuit behavior) it'll take the pressure off of her and she may not feel it's so urgent after all.
nuggets:
Maybe a story will help that someone here shared with me. When you were married, you were in the same car. In your case, it sounds like she was the driver and you were a grumpy passenger. At b d, she threw you out of her car and said I want to drive with OM. You keep chasing after her car and ignoring OM in the passenger seat asking if you can sit in the passenger’s seat and she says no. You need to get in your own car. Learn how to drive by yourself. You may see each other while you are both out driving and you can ignore her or wave hello as appropriate. But under no circumstances do not stop and get out of your car and try to get in her car.
There's DB'ing and then there is protecting yourself financially in S and D. They are separate. By all means fully protect yourself.
nuggets:
share this exchange from the movie Swingers, which is very accurate:
Quote:
And what if I don't want to give up on
her?
ROB
You don't call.
MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I
wanted to give up on her.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
So I don't call either way.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
So what's the difference?
ROB
The only difference between giving up and
not giving up is if you take her back
when she wants to come back. See, you
can't do anything to make her want to
come back. You can only do things to
make her not want to come back.
MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget
about her or pretend to forget about her.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
Well that [censored].
ROB
It [censored].
MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision.
So I could, like, let's say, forget about
her and when she comes back make like I
just pretended to forget about her.
ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.
MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?
ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care,
not call - whatever, and then,
eventually, you really won't care.
MIKE
Unless she comes back first.
ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they
don't come back until you really don't
care anymore.
MIKE
There's the rub.
ROB
There's the rub.
The correct answer to that question is:
"No, I don't want the divorce, but I won't stand in your way if it's what you truly want. "
There’s the rub 😉
Typical WAS, doesn't want to face the fallout and repercussions of what she's done! My suggestion is not to sugarcoat it like you were in on this lovely little decision. Sure it's fine to ask for love and support, but mutual thing? No. Your job is to keep THE WAY HOME paved and smooth, not the way AWAY. Don't go filling in potholes for her.
I realize you think you have detached, but you are confused about some of it. To lovingly detach means that you don't act like a son of a b'tch. It does not mean that you try to touch her, snuggle up against her, try to sneak a little hug, or whatever. To lovingly detach is all about your attitude. You don't act cold, mad, hateful, give the silent treatment, etc. You don't do things or act in a way to punish her. But don't jump to the other end of the spectrum and think you can act all chummy and buddy-buddy with her. Staying balanced seems to be difficult for LBH's.
...
Detaching is stepping away, but it's mostly an attitude. Detaching has to be in your thought pattern. If it isn't, then you have to train yourself. Stop focusing on your WW, and focus on you and your kids. From what I've read, everything has been about her, and you trying to win her back. The cases I have seen successful came when the H let go of his WW. I mean, really let her go. Can you do it? Btw, detaching does not mean you have to stop loving her.
Success seems to come when the couple have time apart. Living together under the same roof while she's sleeping with another man is not working. If you physically separated today, she would still keep the A going. It doesn't happen overnight. It takes time for her to realize her fantasy is not her reality. Her and the OM will have their time, but for how long is anyone's guess. Maybe she will get her eyes open, and maybe not. But in the meantime, you are making a new life for yourself. When you let her go and you are happy about your new life, it has more affect on her than any of these things you've tried to do to bust the D.
No it doesn't HAVE to be the end... I suppose I could continue to act as if I was married... keep ring on finger... not date anyone... continue to focus on myself and kids...
As to couple month S b4 D... many reasons but the most salient one is that I really think we both need to get our feet under ourselves (I know I do and will... esp with new job in new year, navigating new territory with kids, and improving communication between us).
a second one is that once the floodgates are opened... she might find out that this guy is a lot like me anxious, etc... but I know this is a fantasy in my head... I really don't believe based on how angry she is and bound and determined she is to do this (she's been planning for months prior to BD...) that this will accomplish mush on this secondary thought..
There are several other considerations... but those are the more important ones from a DB perspective...
Next time try validation- "do I say things that give you the impression I think that about you? How does that make you feel? I
am sorry you feel that way, I will try and work on that."
...
Don't intervene like that unless she asks you. Read Sandi's post and try to understand, your W does not like you right now, she may even hate you and find you repulsive. She doesn't want your help. One of the most hurtful things I found out after BD was I snooped and saw a note my XW had written to a friend that her "biggest fear" was getting sick and me having to take care of her. She said that she hated the very thought of it. I mean what a blow to the stomach that the woman that loved you so much not too long ago now can't stand the sight of you, but this is your reality now just as it is/ was for most of us here. It will eventually change, but not anytime soon. So quit trying to help her unless she specifically asks.
Following that - she wants to be divorced, so start moving towards that sort of life. The key thing to focus on is that you are going to need to be in survival mode for the next while. Think about what sort of future you envision as a single dad and work towards this. A key thing though - and this will be tough - is that you need to be the "sane parent". The one that the kids can count on. It sounds like your W is "allowing" you to pick up a lot of the parenting load. Document document document. It may be important when talking about custody. Expect her to be neglectful as she moves in to her new "happily ever yadda yadda". If you want examples, check out Gordie's thread. He's doing an amazing job of being the sane parent there.
Finally - I'd like you to take a good honest look at four things.
Firstly yourself. Do you like the "man in the mirror"? You're stuck with him so he'd better be someone you like.
Secondly your wife. Take off those rose coloured glasses. Mine were pretty firmly attached I know. Consider objectively who she is and importantly who she "was". For many people in this mess a lot of what comes out are things that were buried for years that were part of their family of origin such as my own STBX's selfishness.
Thirdly your role as a father. You're going to have to do 50% of the parenting on your own for a while. Are you up to it?
Finally your marriage. You've pointed out a number of places where you perhaps were not the best partner your wife could have had. Whether that was responsible for her dashing off with OM or not is immaterial now. That horse has left the barn. Being super-husband and wonder-dad isn't going to fix that and make her reconsider. But for any new relationship, including a possible one with your current wife, how do you see that working? If you dig through the archives you will read that after a marriage is so broken that one of the partners needs to leave that any new relationship has to be treated as just that and not a continuation of the old one.
I hope that helps.
Stay strong. Stay true to yourself.
Detaching is stepping away, but it's mostly an attitude. Detaching has to be in your thought pattern. If it isn't, then you have to train yourself. Stop focusing on your WW, and focus on you and your kids. From what I've read, everything has been about her, and you trying to win her back. The cases I have seen successful came when the H let go of his WW. I mean, really let her go. Can you do it? Btw, detaching does not mean you have to stop loving her.
Originally Posted By: Mercury
but don't know what to expect...
other than a lot of alone time every other week...
Why do you have to be alone? Take some time to 'date yourself'...to figure out who you are and what you want out of life. Join some groups, learn some new hobbies, read some books, etc. LIVE YOUR LIFE! If youre doing it right, youll be so tired when you get home, it wont even matter that she isnt there.
GAL & Detaching as has been said is a frame of mind, an attitude. It is not doing the dishes, salsa dancing, having a few beers, etc. It is the reason behind these actions.
The opposite is loving someone. It is not buying flowers, chocolates, pda but the feeling behind those actions. The driving force.
Everything you do is centred around what she may or may not think or act. Your wife is going to leave you physically. She has done so emotionally. She is having sex repeatedly with another man and probably even like in the movies. The hot sweaty type. Yet I still get the feeling this has not really sunk in what it all means.
How much further away does she have to go for you understand the reality of your situation and where you really fit in her life?
How can you still trust anything she says regarding feelings, finances, etc. All agreements whether written or emotional have small print. The problem is we tend to overlook them until problems start. Right now you should start reading it and covering your back otherwise I can see you in a few months time complaining what she did, how she lied to you, how you never thought, bla bla bla.
You also keep on about how bad you were and how it was the cause of the breakdown. You told her, apologized so now shelve it.
Driving her away was maybe your doing but into someone else's bed was of her own 2 feet. That's on her. And just to be clear, I would not hide from anyone the reality. Dont turn it into a drama but dot the I's. She's leaving you for someone else. Don't try and get sympathy just project that you are passed it, accepted it and dealing with the consequences this change will bring.
Your posts are also splattered with insignificant battles or not even that, skirmishes where she said A and you said B bla bla. Dont waste time on them. Dont second guest her reasons, actions or respond to her provocations. I also found that sometimes I p1ssed my W more when I walked away instead of retaliating.
In short you really have to focus more on yourself, your wishes, the reality and building yourself up into a stronger mental state than being reactive to everything she says or does. Pick and choose your battles if you need to. Keep her off her guard by being unpredictable so that at least you can have some peace and not have her affect you everytime she has a depressive attack, feels angry or unsure and needs to attack someone. If she is planning to leave you for Mr. B then let him deal with her issues. After all he is now the person in her heart, not you.
Oh and for crying out loud stop with those hugs and hands on the shoulder. If you were doing correct DB you would know why.
Emotionally you cannot compete with Mr. B, he is where you once were so he needs to be out before you can try to get back in. Your tactics are wrong and you have to dig in for a trench warfare like relationship before things will get better.
No it doesn't HAVE to be the end... I suppose I could continue to act as if I was married... keep ring on finger... not date anyone... continue to focus on myself and kids...
This is about you. What do you want?
What does the ring mean to you? What does divorce mean to you?
Im just curious why you are placing such an emphasis on adding in a separation step or why you are so scared of divorce happening quickly.
the most salient one is that I really think we both need to get our feet under ourselves
a second one is that she might find out that this guy is a lot like me anxious, etc...
Im asking about YOU.
Why do YOU want to have a separation?
In my reading of what you are writing, you basically just want that legal string tying her to you as long as possible.
Hve you ever thought that maybe that string tying you to her is what is keeping her from considering R and is driving her away? She is fighting so hard to lose the string, that it doesnt matter what you do as long as it's still there? That pressure you are continuously applying is only making her want to run faster.
Imagine walking along and something grabs your leg. What do you do? Try to shake it off! Imagine if it clings harder and tighter...the natural response is to SHAKE HARDER. To me, you pushing for a trial separation is just that - clinging tighter.
Well as for the parents they are going to ask questions... however stating that you both want the divorce will relieve some of the pressure off of her during this talk. Doesnt mean you cant comeback and state your position to the parents at a later time.
As for the kids the only we statement i think you have a problem with is the divorce, because you cant disagree that you didnt have problems, you dont both love the kids, and it isnt their fault.
As for helping her move out, put your feelings and previous relationship aside, and help her in a way that you comfortable with. i.e. what would you do for a friend that was a girl, that you were not trying to get into their pants. Dont help her setup her new place, let her do that. She will like the freedom and will give her a taste of how it will be without you there. I would also do no contact after that. let her come to you, show her that you dont need her and will be fine without her. You have kids so there will be contact but keep it to the kids or whatever she brings up only. Make her wonder whats going through your head instead of the other way around.
As for the alone time, use it to improve yourself, for you not her. You have to put you on a pedestal now. do whats in the best interests for you, to become healthy mentally again. And it wont be easy, if it was nobody would be here.
would say at this point make sure your protect yourself and forget about reconciliation. Make sure you get as much time as you can with your kids and fight for as much time as you can in the divorce proceedings. They will be the ones that will need you to be there for them. During this multi yr affair, she had what she wanted her AP and you. You need to remove one and the only one you can control is yourself so remove yourself. If she comes back great, if she doesnt then you are better off. No matter what you will have to let her affair play out, because she wont leave until it does.
It is scary to invest so much time in a relationship to only be placed back on the market unwillingly. You have to learn from it and realize you are better than how you are being treated and move on.
How you act now will determine how your kids will act in the future if they are placed in the same situation. How would you want your child to act if their future spouse had been cheating on them for yrs...
What do you want? Who are you?
All of your posts are focused on WW. Nothing will happen until you detach.
What does that mean?
Imagine you are on a water-ski following a speed boat. You are going wherever that speed boat goes. Deep water, towards the rocks, fast or slow. Wherever that boat goes you follow. At the moment that boat is driven by a crazy woman, your WW. And you are following analysing every move and adjusting your balance and technique to influence.
You can't track like this. Truly healing growth and attraction won't work until you detach and move into observer mode.
You have every right to analyse as you do, act as you are and fight for your M in every way you can. Rather than run around, stand and observe. It's called standing for a reason, not called running around or chasing or appeasing or pursuing.
Pursuing just means that your skis also have power.
Simply don't, you can't pursue a WW back, or talk her back or be inconsistent. Consistency isn't behaving one way this month and another next. It's month upon month of standing and detaching.
Just at this time your WW is calling the shots, as part of detaching get legal advice, your kids need you more than ever as the consistent solid force in their lives.
Do not leave your home the MBR. Stay put. You are not the wayward.
My thoughts
V
What do you want? Who are you?
All of your posts are focused on WW. Nothing will happen until you detach.
What does that mean?
Imagine you are on a water-ski following a speed boat. You are going wherever that speed boat goes. Deep water, towards the rocks, fast or slow. Wherever that boat goes you follow. At the moment that boat is driven by a crazy woman, your WW. And you are following analysing every move and adjusting your balance and technique to influence.
You can't track like this. Truly healing growth and attraction won't work until you detach and move into observer mode.
You have every right to analyse as you do, act as you are and fight for your M in every way you can. Rather than run around, stand and observe. It's called standing for a reason, not called running around or chasing or appeasing or pursuing.
Pursuing just means that your skis also have power.
Simply don't, you can't pursue a WW back, or talk her back or be inconsistent. Consistency isn't behaving one way this month and another next. It's month upon month of standing and detaching.
Just at this time your WW is calling the shots, as part of detaching get legal advice, your kids need you more than ever as the consistent solid force in their lives.
Do not leave your home the MBR. Stay put. You are not the wayward.
My thoughts
V
_______________
Standing is looking after you first and your children. It is not following her every action. It is stillness, a pool of calmy.
It is standing firm, making your decisions and standing by them, like the lighthouse in a storm keeps its beaconot lit.
It is saying " this is what I am going to do and doing it" irrespective of the reaction.
It is strong.
It is consistent.
It is living your life dealing with your stuff without interfering in hers.
It is setting boundaries you can enforce and enforcing them.
It is getting off that water ski.
It is putting you and your children first, last and in the middle.
It is being open and telling the truth, dealing with your feelings and hurts. It is telling those who love you and are concerned, who can give you support that your WW is having an affair with this particular OM and you are hurt. It is telling her that if asked you won't lie. I am of the view there is no value in outing an R, but there is no value in lying or hiding either.
It is not appeasing WW and protecting your children from her mad unpleasant and awful behaviour. I have no sympathy for waywards at all, not one jot of any human milk of kindness. Your children are living with this madness and it's time to stand and be the rock.
Children are the most important thing in your sitch, your precious children need you standing and solid.
V
_________________________
Me 63 xH 61: T 5 M 1.5: BD x3, S 6-14: D 5-16 then lunacy, next hearing 3-18
Age is just a number
[/quote]
2 facts:
1. Your M is over.
2. See fact No. 1.
Will you ever be reunited with your W in a romantic relationship? Frankly the odds are against it. By a lot. That is the truth you might not want to hear. The main success of DBing is not restoring your marriage. The main success is restoring you and your sanity. Can you really not see that you changing your ways all of a sudden can seem like such an act to your W?
And another 2x4. You really can't put all the fault of the divorce on her. You really were a problem before she pulled the trigger.
Why do you have to agree to a divorce? I am not sure what state you live in but some states have it so that both parties have to agree to a divorce for it to go through or wait for a certain period and then file for a onesided divorce. That's what I wold do. I'd say, I do not want a divorce, but if you want one it is your divorce, I will not stand in your way, but agree to it I will not.
With regards to the parents and THE TALK with them, under do duress would I state that the divorce was a mutual thing. You spilling the beans on the affair will not help one bit and besides that, the truth will come out sooner or later anyhow. And even if the parents knew of the affair, would it make a difference? Nope.
Again. SHE IS GONE. No amount of begging, pleading and asking will change that. It will just make you look like a pathetic little worm. Even if she has any feelings left for you, they are buried under many many layers of other stuff. You aren't even a blimp on her radar.
Do get a lawyer's advice. Do not let her railroad you. She will try guilt tripping you.
Do not text her any more, except important stuff (kids, home burning,...). Do not call her, except important stuff. Do not try to catch up on 15 years of neglected housewives, neglected chores, neglected relationship. You are still trying to find that illusive silver bullet. There is no silver bullet.
I didn't say to act like a male pendulum, but you need to be a man. Given the timeline I am sad to say that the next couple of months will be the worst for you (yes, much worse than you are feeling now), but after that it does slowly get better.
You will make mistakes. No biggie, you will have to learn to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go forward.
You have been given the gift of time. What gift you ask? The gift of improving yourself to become the best you you can be. Personally if someone offered to restore my marriage and I would have to forget my changes and improvements, I would flatly refuse without even a second thought.
You might find my writings harsh, I am not apologizing. I am giving you facts and not sugarcoating anything. You will realize at one point that you need a kick in the pants every now and then.
Stay strong Mercury, your children need an awesome dad.
More Nuggets:
You've got to walk a fine line here, you want to give your W time and space but at the same time you don't want to seem cold, indifferent or unloving. The key is to LOVINGLY detach.
you have responses to this on your last thread. I am going to give you a blueprint in how to lovingly detach. Please read it carefully b/c it will help you understand that detaching is not all about physically pulling away, as it is more about your attitude and the way you think and make decisions.
*****************************************************
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'm glad you didnt take the bait and play the game your W is playing. Don't turn your kids against their mom. All you have to do is be honest with your kids with what your are doing. Take them with you sometimes. Make some of your GAL about them too. Its a good time to grow your bond stronger with your kids.
You W is starting to see you pull away. She is only going to get madder and more manipulative. She is going to try and use every trick in the book and when she see you are not reacting to her tricks she will play the victim card not only to you, but also to friends and family. Be prepared.
She will not be herself. I would go on that [GAL]. She is getting curious. Keep it going. Dont let up. Next shes going to say something like, "it seems to me you dont want to be married no more". She will reference divorce to see if it scares you back under her spell. Dont fall for it. You tell her, "you are for the Marriage and now your are starting to enjoy your life again. It has been an amazing few days." Then walk off. Don't let her trap you in a drawn out conversation.
You are ok. We have all been where you are except Sandi. She was WW before, so her advice is directly from the perspective of a WW.
We have all been hit upside the head with 2x4 by Sandi.
Learn as you go. You are going to make mistakes. You are going to question some of the advice, then you will question yourself. Most of us have made the exact same mistakes as you. We are giving you advice, so you don't do what we did wrong.
I was running around like a chicken when I got hit with BD. I was looking for that magic answer as well. There is none. There is only time, patience, and Hard work.
You wont be able to talk, write an email, text message or buy hundreds of presents to get out of this mess.
Gaining respect for yourself is a end goal. Making yourself better by identifying, self reflecting and then fixing those areas that destroyed your marriage is a goal. Making yourself a person only a fool would leave is a goal. Becoming independent of your W is a goal.
Those are 4 goals that will make your healthier and stronger. Realize I never mentioned getting your W back. She has to want to come back on her own. But, not until you have reached all those goals, will she want to come back, not until you have reached all those goals, you Will be in a place to except her back. Realized, I said you EXCEPT her back.
Those 4 goals are you worrying about you and no one else. Let go of any expectations you are holding for your M and your W.
Hermes, dude, you should've consulted me before choosing a name. Hermes sounds like a really bad disease. As in, "I've got a bad case of incurable hermes so the doctor prescribed thorazine and damnitall."
Marriage Breakthrough Video Seminar
vs
Keeping Love Alive
MBVS seems hard to find and not avail on DB site
KLA looks good...
I already have Last Resort Technique videos (90 mins) and have found some good things there in addition to DR/DB books...
Thoughts on whether KLA is worth the extra $$?
Pretty much all of us did all the wrong things before finding DB. You are not a failure at all, we all stumble around until we find our footing, that's a normal part of the process!
I've been DB'ing for over 5 years, it's a continuous learning process that everyone should embrace and continue even if their M ends (as mine did). It's a journey rather than a destination
S can be a good thing for DB'ing. Often the WAS feels the pressure lifted once S happens. Another thing that happens is the time and space sometimes helps the WAS realize the LBS is not the source of all their problems like they've been thinking. That can lead to soul-searching and growth on their part. It doesn't happen right away, but over time it can radically change the WAS's perspective.
The problem with DB is that there are stages and believe me, if you think its hard now , truth is you are still falling. Even if she leaves the OM and comes back to you and you do take her in which I think you will without a fight, you have a long way to go before getting to the stage called piecing which is hell. And in piecing you can still blow it plus the pressure is now back on you.
Right now the pressure is on the OM to not mess it up. If I were you I would take this time to work on myself.
Something else to consider, if you do finally work on yourself and be the 2.0 you may come across an unexpected surprise. You may find that the person you would die for now no longer makes you tingle in the fizzy bits. You may find that you attract a different kind of woman and are attracted to a different kind of woman. You may find that the new woman offers you much more than your EXW did.
Lives are affected when a family is torn apart. Your children's lives will be affected, and they deserve to know the truth. Don't play along with your WW and lie to the kids about it being a mutual decision. They deserve to know that daddy did not want to break up the family.
There was a DB member here awhile back that gave his personal experience of how he had always blamed his father for divorcing his mother. It was during the time he was posting on the board about his own M problems, that his father finally told him the truth about his mother's infidelity. All those years he had refused to have a R with his father, b/c he had not been told what really happened......and was left to believe whatever his mother told him. With his father choosing not to expose the truth, he lost the relationship with his young son. That story was an eye opener for me.
You and your W should face the kids together to give them the news, or she will not be honest with them. I am not in favor of lying to kids. At the same time, I don't suggest dishing out the dirty details. Age appropriate must be considered when revealing the news to D.
I would not say, "Your mother and I have decided"........ as if you are taking equal responsibility for the decision to divorce instead of her doing the right thing and end her affair. Some older teenage kids may be old enough to be told that their mother has met someone else and she wants out of the M. Each LBS has to use wisdom about how to approach this subject. Some kids are not old enough to hear that about their mother, especially when having "the D talk". All talks must be age appropriate information. Hearing the news to D, is devasting enough for them. Futher information about the reason to D, may need to be in increments, especially for young children. The only thing you've really agreed upon was to grant her a divorce. However, don't be surprised when your W resists telling them the truth, b/c most WW's want to be seen as "justified" to their children and everyone else.
It's not your job to destroy, or save, the relationship between your kids and their mother. It is your job to be honest with them. You are not trying to get them to take sides. Older teenagers will not appreciate being told some generic explanation for why their parents are splitting up the family. I feel some things between a man and his W should remain private. However, when it comes to why they got a divorce, older kids deserve to know the truth behind the D (at least, the basics). A lot of people grow up without knowing the true reason behind their parents divorce.
The parents deserve to know the truth behind the D. It's not your job to convince her parents, but if the D goes through......you could inform them. Your WW is going to give her own version anyway, so it really does not serve you well......other than knowing they were given the truth. Again, no dirty details, just keep it short and basic. It's up to them to deal with the relationship with their daughter.
I decided one day I was going to bring nothing but positivity in my home. I didn't care what her mood was, I wasn't going to let her mood affect minds.(this was hard as hell, and still is). I continued to stay positive, I smiled and laugh and only fed the good wolf. I also gave her space and GALed. But every time I was around her, I never let her see me in a down mood. I worked hard to not react to any of her snippy remarks and stayed above the petty arguments.
(This is for you) Sandi, is great at explaining this, you will never get your W back unless she respects you. My wife have told me multiple times now, she loss all respect for me. And would of never allowed herself to be with OM if she had respect for me. She also informed me that the only way she start to think about working on the M was because she saw me respecting her and she now wants(wants to respect me). (Respect is more important than love. Without respect, love cannot flourish) (I learned to respect myself and take pride in myself). I also, didnt ever bring up OM, I didn't give him, space or power in my head or home. I only focused on me. I also didn't tolerate her talking to him in our home. I made myself the only option to her for me, in my home. If she wanted to be with him she had to leave, (she didnt have to legally, but I made it known, I wanted her gone).
I also made D and option. I ran every scenario in my head. I was scared to follow through on getting a D, but I knew if it had to be done, then so be it. I would muster up the strength and take action. I decided I want let no one disrespect me. (This is a hard decision as well). But once I got this place, I felt more confident and I EVer better. This is my experience.
Is keeping Love Alive by Liam. If it is, he has some good advice. But I had a bad experience with his phone session. He told me to D my W and move on. Hope that helps. I'm glad I didn't listen to him.
Know I've talked about this b4 and thank you for all the advice... this is still evolving.
Note: previous advice ranged the gamut between tell P @ A.. tell older kids like S16 @mom leaving me for someone else (no other details though about specifics).
to telling P about it... saying more generic, Because of things that have happened on both our sides, this is something she wants and I do not, but it takes two for marriage to work, so we are getting a divorce.
Know that there's only a TINY change of R at any point in future... and if/when we get there I'll likely be in such a different place that A) she won't tell me even if she wants it and B) Even if she wants us to consider, I may well have moved on to a place where I don't want any more pain from prior relationship in my life ever again. (I know we have problems and that We have a lot of conflict... willing to work through it now... not so sure 6 months 1 year 2 years down the road). But for now I'm concerned with not destroying road back to me irreparably...
Recap: WW wants vanilla statements like:
we are getting divorced.
We are private people... and as such this is a private matter. Please respect our privacy
for both Family and kids.
She has good points: We've not asked for approval in past, shared difficult details with them, etc., this would burden them and what good would telling them do?
My Side: I'm ok with letting my P know all of my sins and part in this, as well as her role in this (and I promise to be balanced and fair...
She is deathly afraid that A will get out... I was saying we can tell your P whatever you want. I won't lie, so if they ask about Infidelity or what caused this at best I'd remain silent... she admitted she would lie to them about A as this would hurt them and it's not the reason she's leaving. She's admitted she's strong enough and prepared to do this even though she knows the damage it will cause whether or not the A is there. She also recently admitted that she knows exactly what A could cost her and all the "sin" etc. and says she's sorry that it hurts me and asked for me to someday forgive... (which seems unbelievable to me right now [forgiving her] as A is not going anywhere and she's not sorry she did it). She also admits that she did this in the wrong order (A then D)... and wishes it hadn't happened that way.
Know I could probably use this in some way... but also know that this is A) wrong B) would be something I regretted forever C) ultimately not get her back and would make things worse btw us.
with my P: asked to go tell them alone and told her I planned to give them a fair accurate accounting and not throw her under the bus... she asked about A... I said yes that's part of it... She accused me of blackmail etc. as my Mother isn't particularly adept at keeping secrets (I had thought that through and planned to let her know that If she told others about it... It would irreparably harm my and her grandchildren's relationship with her)... W says that she would tell everyone and she'd be ruined just as if I did it to her... then went on to say she knew I was lying when I told her several months back that I had no intention of telling the world @ it. and how no one would care about any of the things I did to her when they found out @ affair... because that is the most "important" thing in most people's eyes...
I thought it through and said she may have some merit in her thoughts around what we tell my P and how that could be punative, and that I'm still thinking about it... (Still not going with her whitewashed V. of reality...)
Was at: we've had a lot of problems for some time. Because of those problems W has decided to leave. Which she says makes her out to be the bad guy. with kids and family and invites questions that we'd need to "discuss in advance how to answer"
Latest Evolution in my thinking:
Watched MWD video on what to tell the kids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ImZwhQKVzovery interesting take if you haven't watched it yet.
Essentially she says in addition to what normal advice is for kids... it's important not to lie to them about "united front" in divorce if this Isn't the case.
Instead say something like:
Your mom and I have been fighting a lot, we've been disagreeing on many, many, different things including what should happen to the future of our marriage. This is no different, we really do disagree about this, but since it takes 2 people to work at a marriage and to make it work, we are going to separate/Divorce.
AND HERE FILL IN CONVENTIONAL Advice
Love you not your fault… Let them know what will/will not change.
MWD acknowledges that this is tricky because you need to not start blame/counter blame explanations.
MWD also says that this is important b/c we've always preached about perseverance and working through difficult things in life (hard work/dedication) and now lying to them that marriage is too tough so we're both throwing in towel (which just saying we're getting Divorced is IMHO a version of) WILL cause problems down the road with kids
If they don't already sense difference in how we feel about D... they will in time... and then know that we lied...feel misguided and betrayed... and this is a REALLY bad example to set for the Children...
But not sure how to then avoid who did what to whom in front of kids... as they will want to know which one of us wanted in and which wanted out... I'm ok Mom's the one that had decided to move out. (But with the understanding UP FRONT that NEITHER of us throws the other one Under the bus with kids now or in future... (know this leaves A off the table as well).
With P. still working through this one...
still thinking about more balanced... Because of things that have happened on both our sides, this is something she wants and I do not, but it takes two for marriage to work, so we are getting a divorce.
(Note: she's also now mad that I now say that I'm not "solely" responsible for breakdown of M (i.e. prior to A)... I still believe I have a larger share in this as she did try going down cheeseless tunnels for many years as M slid further and further until Depression set in and it got ALOT worse leading up to A and then BD (A started well b4 BD but I didn't find out until several months post BD). She takes this as more of the same behavior from past (where I externalized blame for things).
Thoughts b4 sharing with WW? (I know I will still get blowback and at some point I'm sticking with a certain version of reality regardless...
P.S. I do know I can always go back and say things later (post D)... But if I do, I feel like I need to be fair/balanced... Not just she left for another man... but also my contribution towards Marital breakdown at a really high level. If/When this happens... mentioning OM name at that time OK? or crossing a line?
Any advice on this one:
Know I have to work on Balance... and am re reading MWD books and listening to LRT Video at least 1x/week now to re-inforce what I need to do and how to do it in a kind/loving way that takes pressure off...
My issue is how to deal with the feelings that I have...
Intense Loss, Regret, Loneliness, Emotional Pain, etc. that each step we take closer to actual D brings...
these come in waves... most recently when she sent the Script she wants to use to tell family/kids... (this led to severe loss of ground through A and M talk... but did finally fill in some of the gaps as we've NEVER discussed the anger she has about things, nor how she feels about leaving/D... though the damage done by this pushed her to sleep in spare BR... from which she hasn't returned (which isn't a bad thing as I don't miss her as much when I don't have her in front of me in a look but don't touch capacity at bedtime and I've gotten several solid nights of sleep vs. waking up at 4 or 5 in morning and not being able to sleep anymore)... so I'm considering asking her to stay down there permanently (Note: she still comes upstairs to get ready/clothes).
I am resolute in remaining faithful (as regardless of her lack of morals/care for wedding vows) I believe in my heart it would be wrong for me to do the same until at least after D...
But it's getting harder each day/week as (among other things) my Primary Love Language is Physical Touch and I have 0 of that coming from her... and there is no one else... I know how to "take care of myself" physically... but that leaves a complete hole emotionally that grows by the day.
GAL helps with that... but when I GAL so hard that I don't think of it.. I end up staying away almost 24x7 on the weekends which isn't healthy... Even when going out with friends... I look around and see couples EVERYWHERE... and that just makes the hurt worse...
I know after D I also likely won't be in a good place to start a new Relationship... but am worried by then I'll be ready to jump at the first Female that shows interest in me as the Emotional hole will be so deep and wide by that point that anything will feel good...
Another thing I struggle with...
I've gotten some really great advice from sandi2 about how becoming a "Super Husband" won't work with WW.
and know Beta Male behavior is trying to cuddle with her, saying I'm sorry for saying things like "our marriage/vows obviously mean nothing to you" when I have nothing to be sorry about... this is basically a true statement given A.
I am working on improvements for me regardless so don't care that WW is suspicious or disregarding, we're telling family/kids just after holidays and she's leaving come Feb.
I need some more help with this as I've messed up things like Loving Detachment in past (SOB detachment vs. loving detachment; was too cold at first while detaching.. getting much better though).
How to be an Alpha Male without being a j@rk or A$$...
Know from things I've read an Alpha would have kicked her out of BR and told her to go sleep elsewhere...
(She's now sleeping downstairs as a result of more R/A talks that I stupidly initiated last weekend... and am redoubling efforts to not do again... (long story short.. she presented her vision of story we're going to tell parents/kids... needless to say I didn't agree and she went ballistic this is discussed in other threads. as a result of this I backslid and had one more round of R/A talk with her (as we'd never really talked about affair... she all but refused, and R talk... I got a lot of "closure" on the exact things she's still not forgiven me for... and how she'd leave EVEN IF there was no Affair... see other threads).
Can someone help me understand exactly how this works?
I know I have to respect myself... set boundaries for Myself, be balanced, lovingly detach etc...
and I know that GALing and doing my own thing play into this... (I feel much better when I do GAL multiple times/week.)
Also know to avoid Beta behavior (following her around, asking how she is, waiting on her hand and foot... but that it is OK to among other things, offer to make the same thing for her to eat if I'm doing it for myself.
I also know that this isn't about a "magic bullet" that suddenly she'll think, wow he deserves respect... I need to get me some of that (dumping OM).
I get that she's gone and I'm working hard to make this my new cemented reality.
I still need to figure this out for myself so that IF/WHEN I ever get into another relationship... the minute I discover A/I I never tolerate this again, not for a second (no idea if things would have gone differently if, when I discovered A this Summer, I just told her to leave and I didn't want to see her again unless the A stopped and then it might be a possibility. (but no way to go back in time... if I could I'd go even further back to kick my younger self's a$$ for being such an A$$). BUT I think I might have moved ahead much faster and in more productive ways if I hadn't been so beaten down (depression, etc.) leading into the BD.
Help/Thoughts/Advice?
Hermes, dude, you should've consulted me before choosing a name. Hermes sounds like a really bad disease. As in, "I've got a bad case of incurable hermes so the doctor prescribed thorazine and damnitall."
LOL I know.. It's just one that I knew STBX would never associate with me and seemed fitting in the Greek Pantheon of Gods to my sitch... (I'm weird that way.. I like Stop correcting "symmetry")
Is keeping Love Alive by Liam. If it is, he has some good advice. But I had a bad experience with his phone session. He told me to D my W and move on. Hope that helps. I'm glad I didn't listen to him.
Nope it's a MWD 6 disc audio program that can be used alone or with your partner.
Kaizen,
the ring is a symbol of the marriage and commitment to it (she still wears hers some days...some she doesn't...not trying to read too much into it... likely it's her way of easing into the D vs having different thoughts about it.
D means the end to me... the end of our commitment/vows/promises and the beginning of complete and total separation (save for anything about kids...). It means the death of my love for her... I will need to find a way to kill this off in me or I won't be able to move on... and she was and still is the woman that almost from the day I met her I wanted to spend the rest of my life with....but then life got in the way... and we each didn't know how to deal with it... (albeit my issues were more damaging to relationship than hers... but she had a role to play as well).
I'd like S to give me some breathing room to adjust to new job, new normal maybe continue to improve communications btw us b4 we start adversarial process of mediation which I really think is likely to get ugly quickly as we will have different agendas in it.
This is a lot like me asking her not to do D over Holidays for kids and to give me time to start really working on myself with Counselor (as I had a really crappy one from July - Sept; but have since found a very good one and that has helped a lot). I am in a better place personally now than I was in Sept... but things continue to deteriorate btw us...
She's pulling away more and more each week (almost like she has a 12 step detachment program she's putting into place; esp given some of the "broken record" sayings she pulls out when she starts to care or shows she's upset at my GAL... (really think IC or Friends are helping her along... or maybe even OM)).
Any thoughts on this...
I had promised her I wouldn't do this as I've already hurt her enough and I know this would hurt her (and by proxy my chances as this would likely drive them closer together given that OM/WW had a firm plan on how they were doing things and OM has shown his commitment by already leaving at this point).
Know she'd get upset as she'd see this as me lying to her... but I never thought telling OM W could possibly have any positive effect on my sitch... until I saw a couple posts in Sandi2's 37 rules forum where another user gave his modifications for this with A... and suggested it was actually a necessary positive thing...
Thougths?
and again, he is is looking for the magic bullet.......
H....Married Man's Sex Primer deals with a lot of Alpha/Beta behavior. You may want to check it out. It's a good read.
I will say this though...you have got to let her go. Stop the analyzing your MR is dead, there is nothing you can do to save it at this time and anything you try to do will push her away farther. she wants nothing from you.
Let her stay downstairs, let her move out. Or you could tell her that you have been doing some thinking and you have realized that you no longer want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. You don't want to be with someone who is in an active A. That is not what you want in your life and you deserve better. That you think it is best if she took that apartment ASAP and we can talk about finances and the kids when the time comes.
You want to set her free? Let her know. It may help you start to get some respect back and is certainly Alpha behavior.
My W told me she wanted to leave and I told her to make it happen.
Just my opinion H.
How to be an Alpha Male without being a j@rk or A$$...
H,
You can't can't go from super beta to alpha male overnight. Again there are no quick fixes here. I have been working on myself for over three years and still am a work in process.
Right now you should start to think about your vision of what life after D will look like for you. What will make H happy in the future?
Start with the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnagie
BTW an Alpha Male isn't a jerk or an a$$. He is confident, centered and a leader and has a purpose in life. He treats his lady like a queen and expects to be treated like a king in return.
Baby steps H Baby steps.
Hermes,
You are trying to figure your whole Sitch in one day. It won't happen. You are going to have to slow down. You are trying to fix everything at once. You need to find something that will call you. You are in for a long ride. Work on yourself first.
You need to really stop worrying about your W. She isnt coming back anytime soon. It took many years to get your M to the point its in now and it will take time to get you W to see you in a different light.
A pastor once told me that my W has these pictures in her mind of me and they stuck up on her wall. I have to retake those pictures in her mind. Give her new pictures of you. With that be said, those pictures will only come when you let go and calm down and work on DBing. Theres no magic answer. Only hard work.
There are different point of views on here, you have to decide which one works best for your Sitch. You are going to have to try things and evaluate. That's why there's is no magic pill. Each WW is different and have their reasons for wanting out. You have to ID those reasons and 180 those behaviors. Dont them for her bit yourself. Usually the problems she ID's is something you would need to work on anyway so, doing 180s for yourself ends up giving your W new pictures of you in her rollerdex.
Hermes!!!!!
Slow it down!! Slow everything down.
This thread and the previous ones felt like a giant vortex where you were given stellar advice but you just kept running and running. You say you're acknowledging the great advice but then you keep posting about stuff that people have already give you great feedback on.
I know this is crazy hard. Your mind is going a million miles a second. You are trying to make sure every and any interaction with W is good and you're analyzing every single thing.
Just take a breath man! Just take a deep breath!
You have already quoted so much good advice given to you on the previous threads in this one. Just take some time to let it sink in.
Joseph just gave you one of the most important and undeniable facts about your sitch: your MR is DEAD!!! Dig that grave and put it in there and put a buncha flowers on top as the last vestige of hope that you will hide away in the corner of your heart in a small lock box.
Now, get back to DB basics.
I know everything is chaos and you are looking at every thing here to get a glimmer of some technique or some action that will do something to spark your W out of her state of mind.
Best thing you can do right now is understand the 37 guidelines and start implementing them.
Also, GAL GAL GAL!!! Where is the GAL? That is supremely important in the detachment process and taking all the focus off your W, and putting it back on you. Everything now is about YOU and kids, period.
I know how it feels to have your mind firing on all cylinders, but please take a step back and just breathe. Don't act on impulse or emotion. Right now, better do nothing than something.
and again, he is is looking for the magic bullet.......
Ouch... and a somewhat fair assessment...
knew it was a fantasy at best...
and didn't thank you for telling me not to send that text the other day... I didn't.
I am also working on LRT to cut my losses...
She moved to Basement of own free will 2 nights back... she said very little last night... I was actually scarce on words didn't greet her when she got home, or ask about day or her after work activities. Only spoke when spoken to other than to say good night.
One thing that she did say last night is she doesn't know if/when she'll move back into bedroom... I said at the time I didn't push you out or force you to go down there (which in retrospect looked weak). She said she slept better... I actually did as well got first 2 good nights sleep in several months...
Think if/when it comes up again that I'm going to tell her I'd like her to stay down there.
Thinking of asking her to also take clothes and toiletries down there as well.
H,
She’s not coming back to the bedroom.
H,
I dont think shes coming back to the bedroom anytime soon. A lot of space and freedom down there. If she ask about coming to the bedroom, don't tell her what to do. You should something like. IMO you should something like:
"I have been enjoying all the space and freedom in the bedroom since ive been in there by myself. I would only want you to come back if we are working on the M."
See what I did there. I didn't say "since you been out the bedroom". I made that statement about you and not her.
Second, in that statement you are not telling her to come or not come, you are giving her and option. She can stay in the basement and continue what she is doing or start to work on the M and come back to the marital bedroom. (Don't try to explain none of this to your, just the statements above will do).
Its yours now. Make it your domain, and she has to earn her way back in. She left.
Hermes,
I'm not sure if I caught the thread that was deleted or fully understand your situation, but I tried to read through as much as I can of this thread. It seems what you're experiencing is still the early stage of this process where everything seems unreal and doesn't make sense. It's so hard to be in a state of chaos, not knowing where life is headed, watching your marriage unravel and trying to act one way when you feel another way. It's just so hard. I feel sure this is the worst feeling anyone could ever feel short of dying slowly from a terminal illness, the actual death of a close loved one, or some kind of environmental catastrophe. I guess you have to submit yourself to the unknown and trust that you'll find the resources and support to navigate your way through this in a way that gives the best shot at a positive outcome. I hope this is the worst and it gets better from here!
Hermes- Before I talk about your post, I want to agree with everyone that is telling you to slow down. This wont be resolved today. Or tomorrow. Now is a time for learning and growth. Honestly, Im worried that you are so busy talking that you arent taking the time and thought to actually read, digest and understand what people are saying to you. You posted all of these 'nuggets', but are you actually internalizing them?
the ring is a symbol of the marriage and commitment to it (she still wears hers some days...some she doesn't...not trying to read too much into it... likely it's her way of easing into the D vs having different thoughts about it.
Your focus should be on YOU. She isnt wearing her ring some days and yet you hail it as a symbol of 'commitment'. So what should that be telling you?
Either way, Im a LOT more interested in what YOU are doing than speculation on why she is doing what she is doing.
D means the end to me... the end of our commitment/vows/promises and the beginning of complete and total separation (save for anything about kids...). It means the death of my love for her... I will need to find a way to kill this off in me or I won't be able to move on...
Do you not see how confused you are. You say "D is the end", but then you say that you "need to kill off [your feelings]". That says to me that divorce doesnt really mean anything. If you have to do something more, then how can just the act of being divorced be the death knell?
Also, she has already ended her commitment. So what does being divorced change there?
I'd like S to give me some breathing room to adjust to new job, new normal maybe continue to improve communications btw us b4 we start adversarial process of mediation which I really think is likely to get ugly quickly as we will have different agendas in it.
This is a lot like me asking her not to do D over Holidays for kids and to give me time to start really working on myself with Counselor. I am in a better place personally now than I was in Sept... but things continue to deteriorate btw us...
So you want to be in a better place personally before going through the D process? Thats understandable. Im glad that you are focusing more on why YOU would like a separation.
Unfortunately, it isnt going to come across well. Youre going to go up to her and say "Id like to pause a little bit before filing for divorce because Im not emotionally ready for it" or something to that effect? I dont see that going over well. It feels like anoher case of putting your needs over hers.
She's pulling away more and more each week
So you think a separation will change that...?
I want to give you an analogy that might help you. Pretend te two of you are going on a walk, but she is three steps ahead of you. Thats your relationship right now - you pursuing her and her distancing herself from you. Imagine if you stop pursuing - she is going to just keep on walking. So from your perspective, it's right - shes getting farther and farther away. But what if, at some point, she turns around. What do you want her to see you doing? What will draw her back in?
Right now, these are the steps people are trying to get you to take:
1) Stop pursuing her
2) Make yourself so enticing that she wants to investigate
Look - you have no control as to whether she will ever turn around. And if she doesnt, then it doesnt matter what you do, your M will be over. BUT, if you follow those two steps above, you will find yourself in a good situation anyway as you made yourself into a person that only a fool would leave.
H,
She’s not coming back to the bedroom.
She was back in the bedroom last night.
Problem is I, i again didn’t sleep well.
2 nets she spent downstairs I slept awesome
Last night woke up about 5 am couldn’t get back to sleep.
Think I may have made things worse...
I said this am to her that I think I’d like her to move back to basement.
She said you seem really angry...
I said no. I’m just done.
She said you asked me to stay to feb box of job and $$ and I agreed. If I had known you were kicking me out, I’d have left in Jan.
Later she asked if their was something she had done.
I said, the two nights you slept downstairs I slept awesome.
Last night with you in the bed I slept like s@@t..
I said maybe it was a fluke I don’t know.
She apologized for not taking my laundry down with hers again. As I took mine down minutes after hers but didn’t say anything. I said it’s fine, don’t care about that.
Later she asked if this also meant she needed to move all of her stuff downstairs as well. Toiletries clothes. I said I hadn’t thought about that. She said it would be inconvenient.
I feel really conflicted about this.
I think she’s painting me badly to kids as I GAL. She mentioned again about all the Nights that I’ve put out on calendar. And S16 asked where I was going last night and I told him church then out with guy from church. He asked what we talked about and I told him. He then said, I don’t think you should go out so late, mom really doesn’t like it.
I tried to tell him that this was an adult matter, and that mom also goes out she dhust does it right from work... so she’s home by 9 or so. I take cRe of you guys so I go out later typically.
I feel like I am actively pushing her away. And giving her further justification for leaving, not that she needs it, she is already out the door.
Part of me feels like DB is now harder as she’ll now be downstairs.
Know I’m weak for second guessing this, and not sure I have resolve to carry through.
Still resolved to no more R/A/M talk.
I’m being scarce on words. But polite when asked.
Spoke to church about sons of omission. Talk with parents, she wants to not say anything. And if infidelity comes up, lie. I won’t lie... but now realize that not saying anything is also a sin. As one person put it, the truth will set you free.
Do parents have a right to know what happened or why she’s leaving? Know there’s probably no right answer... know DB coach would say let her say whatever she wants. Know several of you have advised that I can always go back later and tell them.
I want to be fair and honest. I did a lot of stuff that led us here, she also did stuff.
Actually, it sounds like you finally did the RIGHT thing.
Please don't backtrack, because it will negate everything you did.
Hermès,
You have a right to privacy and a right to your story. Who you tell and how much you tell is up to you including your parents. You are not your w’s spokesman. She can tell her own story and you have no control over what she says, including lies. Feel free to correct the lies if people ask you directly about them later.
H,
You handled yourself pretty well. Like Ginger said please don't backtrack now.
Your'e still doing a lot of mind reading. "For example you are interpreting her being mad because of your GAL as jealousy when it is most likely just keeping he from OM".
Remember that time and space is the only thing that is going to change this outcome.
H...I agree with G, good on you. As hard as it was telling her to go back down stairs it is the right move. Don't forget she has been cheating on you for 2.5 years. Don't backslide and if she approaches you about moving out don't stand in her way.
You have to be willing to lose your W before you will ever have a chance of getting her back.
H....Married Man's Sex Primer deals with a lot of Alpha/Beta behavior. You may want to check it out. It's a good read.
I just picked it up thanks will read it shortly.
I will say this though...you have got to let her go. Stop the analyzing your MR is dead, there is nothing you can do to save it at this time and anything you try to do will push her away farther. she wants nothing from you.
Let her stay downstairs, let her move out. Or you could tell her that you have been doing some thinking and you have realized that you no longer want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. You don't want to be with someone who is in an active A. That is not what you want in your life and you deserve better. That you think it is best if she took that apartment ASAP and we can talk about finances and the kids when the time comes.
You want to set her free? Let her know. It may help you start to get some respect back and is certainly Alpha behavior.
Really hard to accept the new reality of dead MR... (I mean it's not new... it had been on a slow path to this for a while prior to BD as neither of us was trying anymore (me with Depression and recovery, her with OM and neglect of R that she didn't find satisfying).
But feels more real each day as we are 20 days out from officially starting the Destruction of MR with telling parents, kids, and I'm assuming friends (we've both told selected friends... she's got a suspicious number of HappyHours on her calendar and I can only assume she's meeting all her and our joint friends to start telling them that we're getting a divorce and how sad it is... not telling them she's leaving and happy as a clam for the R with OM).
I am sticking to my GAL activities from now on... just need to be careful as it feels like she's throwing me under bus with kids... (saying "I don't know where you dad is or who he is with... or even when he's coming home)... and I worry that her telling me to go out as much as I need to even if it's every night... (which I do not do just 2-3 nts. She stays away from home until 7-8 or after each work night because she's got Happy Hours, Workouts, etc.).
Truth is I don't want to be with someone who's in Active A, doesn't want to be with me. I do deserve better than this... and I know there are women out there who would really appreciate a guy like me (decent looking, takes care of himself, dresses nice, working on himself, with high morals and integrity).
Just not sure I want to say this directly to her as she's becoming more erratic the closer we get to World BD. Although, I'm slowly becoming emotionally stronger (bit by bit), to start walking away from the crazy vs. trying to defend/argue/engage...
LH,
Thanks for the book recommendation and the words of support. Really appreciate both.
H,
If she ask about coming to the bedroom, don't tell her what to do. You should something like. IMO you should something like:
"I have been enjoying all the space and freedom in the bedroom since ive been in there by myself. I would only want you to come back if we are working on the M."
See what I did there. I didn't say "since you been out the bedroom". I made that statement about you and not her.
Second, in that statement you are not telling her to come or not come, you are giving her and option. She can stay in the basement and continue what she is doing or start to work on the M and come back to the marital bedroom. (Don't try to explain none of this to your, just the statements above will do).
Its yours now. Make it your domain, and she has to earn her way back in. She left.
I like what you are saying... was hoping she'd still be in basement and was a bit disappointed to find her in our bed again last night waiting up for me to get home...
Think I made the right choice in asking her to go back downstairs.
Still on the fence with her taking all her possessions down there AND all toiletries (there is a shower down there but it's pretty crappy and feels a bit punitive).
Any thoughts as to whether its worth saying to her tonight. It's hard to sleep with you knowing you don't want anything to do with me. I would only feel comfortable with you coming back up to our bed if you were willing to work on MR.
Guessing at best it'd have 0 effect and worst cause her to start an argument about how I somehow manipulated her into waiting to leave until Jan 30th and then did this to her to try and get her to reconsider (PRESSURE). when this all happened rather organically.
NicoleR,
Thank you again for your kind words.
This does very much feel like death of a loved one... (I've gone through that before...) and in some ways so much worse as she's still right in front of me...and I'll have to deal with occasionally running into her for the rest of my life outside of kids...
I really feel like after D I want nothing to do with her as long as OM is in picture. Brief exchanges with kids or logistical conversations (which is all she's interested in at any rate).
Truth is I don't want to be with someone who's in Active A, doesn't want to be with me. I do deserve better than this... and I know there are women out there who would really appreciate a guy like me (decent looking, takes care of himself, dresses nice, working on himself, with high morals and integrity).
H,
This is the golden ticket. When you truly get to a place where you believe this it's a game changer. Now it's time to do the work to get you there. That's alpha behavior.
I really feel like after D I want nothing to do with her as long as OM is in picture. Brief exchanges with kids or logistical conversations (which is all she's interested in at any rate).
What is it about being DIVORCED that you think will automatically make you feel this way?
What is preventing you from acting this way now?
H....just know that asking her to sleep downstairs is Alpha. Not caring what she doing or who she is talking to is also Alpha. Going NC and not bringing up your R or MR is also Alpha. Acting like you don't give a f&ck is also Alpha. Give yourself come credit you are starting to display some of the characteristics.
FWIW....I cried my eyes out for the first month and went days without eating. I found this paragraph on this site when I was really struggling and spent hours a day researching. I saved it so I can refer to it when I am struggling. Hopefully it will help.
The people on this site who try the hardest are the ones who have the least success. The harder they try the more they get rejected. Those who let go the fastest, heal the quickest and also are the ones who maximize their chances of getting the wayward back. It is only when you let go that you have your best chance.
I know in my head that this is the way forward... my heart is another matter... I'm slowly coming around... but it's incredibly painful to realize she's already gone, even though she's right in front of me every day, and NOTHING I can do will change that.
Ginger1,
Thank you for the vote and support...
I'm getting more resolved on this point.
still have several more hours to keep building resolve...
Any thought on mentioning that if/when she wants to work on MR I'd consider her moving back in? or is it too little too late for this.
Any thought on mentioning that if/when she wants to work on MR I'd consider her moving back in? or is it too little too late for this.
It's too late for that!
Are you now trying to bribe her into staying?
Any thought on mentioning that if/when she wants to work on MR I'd consider her moving back in? or is it too little too late for this.
H....that is not Alpha. No more discussions.
I get that I have a right to both privacy and what I tell my parents...
I just need to figure out what is
A) appropriate to share (nothing doesn't seem right, nor does every detail... thinking broad brush strokes (we both contributed to this situation (not sure if we talk about me not being nice to her, not working with her on budget, and her not forcing issue of budget, giving in to spending... and her finding other man she wants to be with). She is leaving, I wish it was different but I can't stop or dissuade her as she feels justified and there is another man waiting for her on the other side? or just more vanilla.
B) won't destroy dramatically increase any possible road back in future. (kind of worried that any disclosure to either family might make any possible future much more difficult... but know this is a needle in a haystack anyway so not sure I should really care outside of the fact that she might get more mean during mediation/D).
C) how to handle what she's telling her parents... and what to do if I'm right there and she lies to them in front of me (assuming we go with the We're Getting a Divorce, And NO QUESTIONS if you love us... spiel.
D) I know best case scenario if I tell my parents about A or any details... they WILL 90% talk to her parents about it.
E) what we tell kids WILL be different (not going along with just D and no QUESTIONS because we're private people... that seems cold and rude to them...)
F) what to tell friends... I'm planning on saying that she decided she didn't want to be married to me anymore and left. (Know she probably wants to keep it to were D. It's sad... need your support.).
H,
Remember that time and space is the only thing that is going to change this outcome.
Remember to breathe... Think I need to take some time this PM to meditate it's been a while...
Meditate on Time and Space...
Thank you!
You have to be willing to lose your W before you will ever have a chance of getting her back.
Thank you for the validation and reminding me of this fact... keep it coming
Truth is I don't want to be with someone who's in Active A, doesn't want to be with me. I do deserve better than this... and I know there are women out there who would really appreciate a guy like me (decent looking, takes care of himself, dresses nice, working on himself, with high morals and integrity).
H,
This is the golden ticket. When you truly get to a place where you believe this it's a game changer. Now it's time to do the work to get you there. That's alpha behavior.
Working on it... I've printed this up and plan to read it each morning and evening...
I really feel like after D I want nothing to do with her as long as OM is in picture. Brief exchanges with kids or logistical conversations (which is all she's interested in at any rate).
What is it about being DIVORCED that you think will automatically make you feel this way?
What is preventing you from acting this way now?
I've been holding onto hope that she might still come around before D is final... know it's not likely... but once it's final, I figured no reason to keep on hoping, just needed to move on with my life completely and as part of that stop communicating with her about anything non logistical with kids.
I also figured that in order to give myself the best shot at DB I needed to keep contact pleasant with her...
I guess the fact that I was trying to DB and act "As If..." the affair doesn't matter concentrating instead on her...
Which as I say this, sounds pretty thin...
I have been taking her "warming up to me" behavior (really kind words, always thanking me, doing a few nice things) as positive signs based on my actions (making sure I always recognize her for anything positive she does as I'm convinced one of her primary love languages is Words of Affirmation) (especially as she told me the reason she worked so damn hard vs spending time with me is that she's actually really good at her job and continues to get a lot of praise for what she does)...
Know she's here through first part of Feb (before everything is in place to help her move) before kids start shuttling between us and only see each of us 50% of time.
Other than LRT and keeping her in Basement to sleep along with continuing to GAL, work on self and focus on kids...
anything else I'm missing?
H.....I saved this one as well.
Most women suddenly get VERY attracted to a man who walks away with his head held high knowing and realizing that he is a "great catch" and that he not only DESERVES a woman who is mad about him, but will GET one..
Your own lack of self confidence in what she really is giving up is what is holding back reconciliation. LET HER GO.. YOUR CHOICE.. YOU be the letting go leader..
MAKE her chase you... You have NEVER given her the chance to see how she really feels about you.. Give her that freedom and give her that chance. Hold the line. . Show her a man who chooses NOT to be with a woman who isn't attracted to him. They both deserve better.
H....just know that asking her to sleep downstairs is Alpha. Not caring what she doing or who she is talking to is also Alpha. Going NC and not bringing up your R or MR is also Alpha. Acting like you don't give a f&ck is also Alpha. Give yourself come credit you are starting to display some of the characteristics.
FWIW....I cried my eyes out for the first month and went days without eating. I found this paragraph on this site when I was really struggling and spent hours a day researching. I saved it so I can refer to it when I am struggling. Hopefully it will help.
The people on this site who try the hardest are the ones who have the least success. The harder they try the more they get rejected. Those who let go the fastest, heal the quickest and also are the ones who maximize their chances of getting the wayward back. It is only when you let go that you have your best chance.
Thank you for sharing this with me...
I've put it in my goals area to refer to each day.
LH19/Joseph9,
That's what I figured... thanks for validating.
H.....I saved this one as well.
Most women suddenly get VERY attracted to a man who walks away with his head held high knowing and realizing that he is a "great catch" and that he not only DESERVES a woman who is mad about him, but will GET one..
Your own lack of self confidence in what she really is giving up is what is holding back reconciliation. LET HER GO.. YOUR CHOICE.. YOU be the letting go leader..
MAKE her chase you... You have NEVER given her the chance to see how she really feels about you.. Give her that freedom and give her that chance. Hold the line. . Show her a man who chooses NOT to be with a woman who isn't attracted to him. They both deserve better.
I like this ALOT...
I was thinking of telling her if/when it comes up as to why I've changed (I told her I was done earlier today)
I've decided I deserve better. I deserve a woman who wants to be with me and not someone who wants another man. I'm smart, witty, reasonably good looking, kind, faithful, and working on myself to be the best me I can be. I know there are a number of women out there who are really looking for a guy like me.
I get that you don't like my changes or the fact that I like to cook, clean, take care of the woman I'm with and my children... that's on you.
I'm certain the next woman in my life will at some point be sending you a nice thank you card for setting me free for us to find each other.
H,
Riiiiiiight exactly, you tell her that and she is probably gonna say “ you’re right what was I thinking”?
Come on H, actions not words. You have to let her go.
So... how exactly does this come across then with actions not words...
I get it's a marathon not a sprint... and making her sleep downstairs is a good start.
I'm smart, witty, reasonably good looking, kind, faithful, and working on myself to be the best me I can be.
Do you believe this? Do you need her validation? Do you need her to give you a gold star of approval?
Great point.
I don’t need sh@t from her.
I know this about myself.
Just need to keep reinforcing it.
Thanks for pointing that out.
H,
Good job. Now, what are your GALs? You are starting to pull away, if you are serious she will feel it, she will respond be ready and don't forget to respond with love. Don't be a jerk or mean.
Keep up the great.
You do deserve better. But don't get revengeful. Only thing you need to say is you deserve better. You don't another woman in that equation. Now you need to demand better for yourself. Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy. A really good book and it will open your eyes to A lot of characteristics that need to be fixed. The NGS is something most LBS have.
I've been holding onto hope that she might still come around before D is final...
No, it's not likely. But is it really that different if she 'comes around' a month after D? A year after D? a week before D?
My point is that the divorce is just a reporting of your relationship status to the government. Being divorced doesnt dictate how you feel about her or your family.
YOU do.
but once it's final, I figured no reason to keep on hoping,
In her mind, the divorce is already final.
She is sleeping with another man. She is emotionally attached to another man. What thread of marriage are you desperately holding on to?
Hope is good. And im not saying to run out and divorce her.
Im telling you to step back and look at your situation with a beginner's mind. If youve already lost everything, what more is there to lose?
just needed to move on with my life completely and as part of that stop communicating with her about anything non logistical with kids.
The saying here is that you need to move FORWARD with your life. Not move on to another relationship.
Yes, you need to cut back on your communications with W. But your focus needs to be on you and rebuilding your life how HERMES wants it to be.
I guess the fact that I was trying to DB and act "As If..." the affair doesn't matter concentrating instead on her...
Youre right. The affair doesnt matter.
But you need to concentrate on YOU.
Not her.
I have been taking her "warming up to me" behavior as positive signs based on my actions
Maybe.
Or she has a lot of happy feelings because her R with OM is going well. Or shes happy to be moving towards D.
Who knows.
Other than LRT and keeping her in Basement to sleep along with continuing to GAL, work on self and focus on kids...
anything else I'm missing?
Hermes - Have you read DR?
If so, what are your goals? Not just about marriage. But what do you want to accomplish? What are you doing to get there? It's probably the MOST important chapter in the book, but almost everyone I see runs straight to the chapter on 'what to do' --> LRT, etc.
Those things above are loose concepts that dont show any clear plan to me.
How can you get somewhere without a map? Thats the goal setting!
H.....I saved this one as well.
Most women suddenly get VERY attracted to a man who walks away with his head held high knowing and realizing that he is a "great catch" and that he not only DESERVES a woman who is mad about him, but will GET one..
Your own lack of self confidence in what she really is giving up is what is holding back reconciliation. LET HER GO.. YOUR CHOICE.. YOU be the letting go leader..
MAKE her chase you... You have NEVER given her the chance to see how she really feels about you.. Give her that freedom and give her that chance. Hold the line. . Show her a man who chooses NOT to be with a woman who isn't attracted to him. They both deserve better.
I like this ALOT...
I was thinking of telling her if/when it comes up as to why I've changed (I told her I was done earlier today)
I've decided I deserve better. I deserve a woman who wants to be with me and not someone who wants another man. I'm smart, witty, reasonably good looking, kind, faithful, and working on myself to be the best me I can be. I know there are a number of women out there who are really looking for a guy like me.
I get that you don't like my changes or the fact that I like to cook, clean, take care of the woman I'm with and my children... that's on you.
I'm certain the next woman in my life will at some point be sending you a nice thank you card for setting me free for us to find each other.
You need to stop with all the explantions and words. Just BE that man, don't tell her about it. You keep making up this conversations you would have in certain scenarios. Thinking the right words will flip her around. it doesn't happen that way.
And as far as giving her conditions on coming back in the bedroom? Don't. Just tell her she is out. When she is ready to ask back, then you decide if you actually want her there.
So... how exactly does this come across then with actions not words...
You start moving on a making a great fuching life for yourself. You exercise daily, eat right, take classes, learn to ride a motorcycle etc....
You become so awesome that your W says "what the h$ll am I doing with this old bald guy? I want H back!"
Then you know what there is a really good chance you don't want her back because you found someone better. Also, if you do take her back she is going to have work her a$$ off and earn it.
Baby steps H but it starts today!
H,
Good job. Now, what are your GALs? You are starting to pull away, if you are serious she will feel it, she will respond be ready and don't forget to respond with love. Don't be a jerk or mean.
[\quote]
I'm going [Out] tonight and Saturday Nt... no plans tonight yet... might go to Meditation meetup, then hang out at a microbrewery and read some self help books eat some wings.
Sat, I plan to do a hike in morning and in afternoon/evening meet a friend to do some outdoor photography then have some beer and maybe take in a local band with another friend.
All she knows is I'm going OUT on calendar.
She kept telling me she "doesn't need/want to know where I'm going or what I'm doing, etc. et." broken record every time I'm going out (think she's trying to force herself to not care/detach and pretty sure this mantra is coming from her counselor as is the tell the parents ABSOLUTELY nothing and we're private people with script for parents and kids.
Trying really hard to not be mean/cold/or a jerk as I messed that up a bit early on... being too cold and a bit of a jerk.
[quote=joejoe1]
You do deserve better. But don't get revengeful. Only thing you need to say is you deserve better. You don't another woman in that equation. Now you need to demand better for yourself. Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy. A really good book and it will open your eyes to A lot of characteristics that need to be fixed. The NGS is something most LBS have.
will look into the No More Mr. Nice Guy... I had heard mixed things about the author of the book... but several folks seem to like this book.
I agree I don't need/want another woman in my life anytime soon... That said, I do miss physical companionship and emotional attachment. and even though I don't think I was a very nice guy in the past to her... I have become a very nice guy to her since the BD... which probably didn't help my case any.
H,
Great Job on GALs. What kind of beer to you like? Wings and beer are my favorite meal. Well use to be. The W and I are vegans. It hasn't been that hard. Not as hard as I thought.
Is the hike, moderate or hard?
question for Cadet if anyone knows how to reach him...
I asked her to move out of BR... everyone here says that I did the right thing (she didn't bring it up last night just got ready for bed took her pillow downstairs and I didn't see her until 7:15AM when I was shaving and she came in to take shower).
cadet says to another person who's not in the Bedroom that:
MOVE back in the bedroom.
Make her move out if she does not want you there
Moving out of the house and bedroom is a MAJOR mistake that is made in these situations.
I get this is a different sitch as the LBS moved out and he says make her move out if she doesn't want me there... in my sitch... WW never asked, nor told me to leave BR...
I asked her to go back to basement to sleep as I needed to get some sleep.
That said, didn't sleep particularly well last night alone... but also didn't have to worry about guarding myself against bumping up against her or touching her prompting a reaction from her "could I have a little space" as she wants nothing to do with me...
Am assuming I still did the right thing based on all the feedback I got... but wondering what Cadet meant by
Moving out of the house and bedroom is a MAJOR mistake that is made in these situations.
Is this just for the LBS? or in general? (and I get that WW is diff. than other sitch.
That advice is for the LBS. There are obviously extenuating circumstances where the LBS moving out is a better idea.
[quote=Hermes]Am assuming I still did the right thing based on all the feedback I got... but wondering what Cadet meant by
[quote=Cadet]
Moving out of the house and bedroom is a MAJOR mistake that is made in these situations.[quote]
H,
You did the right thing she is sleeping with another man. If you went to the basement that would be the wrong thing.
I've been holding onto hope that she might still come around before D is final...
No, it's not likely. But is it really that different if she 'comes around' a month after D? A year after D? a week before D?
My point is that the divorce is just a reporting of your relationship status to the government. Being divorced doesnt dictate how you feel about her or your family.
YOU do.
I understand I control my reactions to it... I could have told her to leave as soon as I found out about A and told everyone, gone to OM W and told her etc.
I'm just not sure how much longer is healthy once D is final...
I don't want to be JUST her friend. I don't want to ever hear about how things are going GREAT for her or how much she likes OM or god forbid that they are moving in together down the road or worse...
Even the thought of these things as I write them make my heart ache. Maybe I'll feel differently later... but right now and since she told me she was done... Its a future I want no part of with her should it come to pass... I feel I'd be happier just letting her go completely and finally, never sharing any details of either of our lives again, save for minimal contact for kids sake.
but once it's final, I figured no reason to keep on hoping,
In her mind, the divorce is already final.
She is sleeping with another man. She is emotionally attached to another man. What thread of marriage are you desperately holding on to?
Hope is good. And im not saying to run out and divorce her.
Im telling you to step back and look at your situation with a beginner's mind. If youve already lost everything, what more is there to lose?
All I have is hope at this point... You are right... One thing another Marriage saving person told me early on is that "If your marriage is good that's all that really matters, and if it's not nothing else matters in life" She's gone... like sand slipping through my fingers as we speak... She applied for APT but hasn't signed lease yet... figure it's only a formality then she's locked into 1 yr lease... know much worse is to come... and I'm likely to break down completely when we tell her parents, my parents, and our kids.
Other than LRT and keeping her in Basement to sleep along with continuing to GAL, work on self and focus on kids...
anything else I'm missing?
Hermes - Have you read DR?
If so, what are your goals? Not just about marriage. But what do you want to accomplish? What are you doing to get there? It's probably the MOST important chapter in the book, but almost everyone I see runs straight to the chapter on 'what to do' --> LRT, etc.
Those things above are loose concepts that dont show any clear plan to me.
How can you get somewhere without a map? Thats the goal setting!
Ive read both DR/DB and some of the infidelity book and also have the change your life and everyone in it... have re-read parts of both... and continue to go back to them... but you are right... I didn't give goal setting much emphasis.
Guess I've been so focused on trying to save the marriage that in retrospect was likely DOA when BD, that I thought my goal WAS saving the marriage... setting small goals like she will recognize and thank me for things that I do for her... etc. which she now does (didn't do it for first 3 months)...
Guess none of these goals really matters now...
I know I need to find what makes ME happy again... and part of that is GAL going out with friends (which I'm doing more regularly), exercising (which I do religiously several times a week), losing weight (70+lbs and counting), get in touch with things that make me happy (hiking, meeting new people, dancing, listening to live music [this one is hard b/c we did so much of this together as a couple; doing it now without her tends to bring her absence to the forefront again], Reading, doing things with kids (again hard without her b/c we used to do all of these things mostly together with them.. and it feels like we're preparing them for D without them knowing it... although it's 2.5 wks from the big reveal to the world at this point so what's the difference).
Getting a new job and settling into it... Trying to figure out how to protect myself from the D and what she's likely to pull (I'm optimistic that she really ISN'T looking to screw me... but I am almost 100% certain we have vastly different definitions of what this looks like).
It's also looking at the damage caused by my past behavior. re-evaluating it and working to ensure it never happens again (understanding the damage, the pain, and healthier ways of interacting etc.) Just really hard to interact when there's no one else to do this with.
Beyond this, I don't have any clue... not even sure where to start...
[quote=Ginger1
You need to stop with all the explantions and words. Just BE that man, don't tell her about it. You keep making up this conversations you would have in certain scenarios. Thinking the right words will flip her around. it doesn't happen that way.
And as far as giving her conditions on coming back in the bedroom? Don't. Just tell her she is out. When she is ready to ask back, then you decide if you actually want her there.
[/quote]
Thank you for again trying to keep me on the right path here... focus on what I need to do vs. might do, could do.
It will be interesting to see if she does ask to come back into the BR or just shows up there again at some point... As long as she's in A, and wants nothing to do with me, I'm don't think it makes any sense for us to share a bed... just causes me to want her (especially as its been months of no physical touch) and isn't good for me... can't sleep.
Note: she's also having a hard time sleeping... many nights wakes up at 4 5 5:30 am and can't get back to sleep...
H,
Great Job on GALs. What kind of beer to you like? Wings and beer are my favorite meal. Well use to be. The W and I are vegans. It hasn't been that hard. Not as hard as I thought.
Is the hike, moderate or hard?
Thanks for the support GAL is becoming pretty easy for me.
I like pretty much all beer... but have a thing for craft and unusual (I also make my own). Have been vegetarian several times in life... vegan is more difficult but kudos for sticking with it... still a lot of tasty options out there (Tempeh, Tofu, Seitan Steak, etc.).
Most of the hikes are moderate pace not many big terrain changes right around where I live... but the all day ones tend to provide more variety... (just don't happen at this time of the year).
H,
Have you changed your look. Are you wearing clothes that fit. Have you gotten new smell good.
Stop worrying about what your W is thinking and what she is doing. You have to let go. If you want her back let her go. Stop trying to hold on to her. Pick your head up, stop looking down on yourself. You made your mistakes, you acknowledge them. Now it's time to work on becoming H2.0. Stop worrying about if she sees your changes. You caused damage. We all have. Now you are working and fixing that damage. Great job. You are on this forum. Stop looking back at your mistakes and look at where you have come and where you are going.
Worrying is taking a thought and replaying it over and over in your head. You have these buffering thoughts in your mind. Let them go (stop buffering). I know it's hard. Worrying stops you from interacting the way to your truly need to. Worrying stunts your growth. If you believe in GOD. I'm a christian, then there's a saying that goes, if you asked GOD to do something for you, and you are up at night worrying, then GOD can go to sleep(which he doesn't), because you are trying to do his JOB for him.
Start smiling at your W, start laughing around her. Do these things over, and over, and over, and over, and over. Sooner or later she will smile and laugh back. If you have to do it a 100 times or 1000 times, do it. It's not about the smiling and laughing, it's about the consistency. At first it will feel fake, but as time goes on it will become natural. Be positive with your W. Don't resent or be mad at her. Positive begets positive. If she yells at you, you smile back. If she tells you something you don't like, you smile back.
You respect yourself and she will respect you back. When she notice, that her mood can't affect yours, she will know that there's a new H. H2.0.
Let her leave. YOU WANT A WIFE THAT WANTS TO LIVE WITH YOU. Give her a chance to feel what it's like to live without you. In that time, you get buff, you find new friends, you find new hobbies, you move on with your life, not looking back for her at all.
You are the prize not her. Pick your head, I can see it hanging down as I read. Look in the mirror and smile, and get some clothes that fit that new body, 70 pounds, man that's awesome. Get some new smell good. When you dress good and smell good, you feel good. Let your W see and smell the new you. Smile and say hi and by to your W. Detach lovingly. Here's the thing and AS is the best at this. If you truly love your W, you don't want to hurt her, you just want her to respect you.
Loving someone is hard and it takes work. But what I find that's harder than loving someone else is loving yourself. Are your loving yourself right now. You have to love yourself before someone else can love you.
See the premise. Respect yourself and others will respect you. Love yourself and others will love you. Be positive in yourself and others will be positive around you. All roads leads back to self. So fixing ourselves is the true journey not saving our M. And by doing all these things, we make ourselves more attractive, we leave our S space to find themselves and see us as not really being the problem. We also give them space so we can heal, and not create anymore damages, this makes the road paved back to us smooth.
Keep your head up. Onward and Forward.
Update on last night:
Fed kids, took them to activities, WW picked them up after (she was working then working out b4 like most nights).
Made dinner for her/I. she came home seemed annoyed that I already fed kids... think she thought we all ate and she was on her own (which I feel would have been mean so didn't do).
We ate in silence reading paper... she made a few comments as did I.
Later we all worked to decorate the Christmas tree... WW and I handing ornaments to kids to put on. Me taking a few Pics... I commented on many of them remembering where we got them (she did hers mostly in silence but commented on a couple from her childhood that were special to her... one of which we'd never put up b/c it was missing a ribbon to hang it with... so I went and found one said it deserves to be on tree).
After this, tree was a bit crooked... so S16 and I worked on it... she reminded me with, a snarky voice, of a comment I made to her last year when she did it all on her own with kids about the same thing... and I remembered how I acted about fixing it (not great; wish I could blame it all on Depression... but know I chose to act that way).
A short while later I went into office where she was and very calmly told her, "I am so sorry for the tree last year, and about so many other things from the past. If I could go back and change the past, and do things differently, I would do it In a heartbeat. For that matter if I had that ability I'd go back even further and kick my younger self in the ass for how he was behaving... but I can't change what's happened. I can only change the future and that's what I'm working on, becoming the best me I can be because I never want to be that way again in any relationship I'm likely to have in the future.
She started to tear up... I walked calmly out of the office.
later, She asked a few logistical questions and gave some suggestions on what I could do with D12 on my night with her this weekend.
I acknowledged and thanked her for suggestions.
later she came upstairs after I had already laid down got her pillow and went downstairs.
This am she was polite but reserved just like I was. As she left said, have a good day... I said same to her...
as I'm GAL tonight and now S16 needs a ride early in evening... she asked if I could do it as she stays at work until workout then comes home after... so would be imposition for her...
I thought about telling her I couldn't, but as I didn't have anything planned, it felt rude... sent email to her/S16 saying I'd pickup.
She's texted me several times about logistical things... I responded...
Guessing this is OK? as long as I'm not the one initiating?
We'll see how this progresses... 4th day of No R/A talk, 3rd of LRT being reserved.
Trying to keep Balance in forefront of mind at all times.
Have you changed your look. Are you wearing clothes that fit. Have you gotten new smell good.
new wardrobe... dressing much more "adult and professional" working hard to remain clean cut at all times... Found a cologne I liked and put it on daily... (she's commented several times I'm putting it on to thick...so cut back some... AND she's commented on it calling it me wearing "perfume" I'm guessing to cut me down... but I just smile and go about my business).
Stop looking back at your mistakes and look at where you have come and where you are going.
Worrying is taking a thought and replaying it over and over in your head. You have these buffering thoughts in your mind. Let them go (stop buffering). I know it's hard. Worrying stops you from interacting the way to your truly need to. Worrying stunts your growth. If you believe in GOD. I'm a christian, then there's a saying that goes, if you asked GOD to do something for you, and you are up at night worrying, then GOD can go to sleep(which he doesn't), because you are trying to do his JOB for him.
I am in fact joining the church as we speak... have been Christian all my life... just not a joiner.
I like that quote
Start smiling at your W, start laughing around her. Do these things over, and over, and over, and over, and over. Sooner or later she will smile and laugh back. If you have to do it a 100 times or 1000 times, do it. It's not about the smiling and laughing, it's about the consistency. At first it will feel fake, but as time goes on it will become natural. Be positive with your W. Don't resent or be mad at her. Positive begets positive. If she yells at you, you smile back. If she tells you something you don't like, you smile back.
You have a great point there... I had vacillated all over the map... euphoric one day... upset the next... Working on Balance... lately I've been somewhat Melancholy...
That said, A simple smile towards her whenever I see her... and finding things to laugh about with/around her... THAT I can do! great suggestion. and one that I've gotten from many including MWD (always be upbeat around her no matter what...)
You respect yourself and she will respect you back. When she notice, that her mood can't affect yours, she will know that there's a new H. H2.0.
Let her leave. YOU WANT A WIFE THAT WANTS TO LIVE WITH YOU. Give her a chance to feel what it's like to live without you. In that time, you get buff, you find new friends, you find new hobbies, you move on with your life, not looking back for her at all.
You are the prize not her. Pick your head, I can see it hanging down as I read. Look in the mirror and smile... Smile and say hi and by to your W. Detach lovingly. Here's the thing and AS is the best at this. If you truly love your W, you don't want to hurt her, you just want her to respect you.
Loving someone is hard and it takes work. But what I find that's harder than loving someone else is loving yourself. Are your loving yourself right now. You have to love yourself before someone else can love you.
See the premise. Respect yourself and others will respect you. Love yourself and others will love you. Be positive in yourself and others will be positive around you. All roads leads back to self. So fixing ourselves is the true journey not saving our M. And by doing all these things, we make ourselves more attractive, we leave our S space to find themselves and see us as not really being the problem. We also give them space so we can heal, and not create anymore damages, this makes the road paved back to us smooth.
Keep your head up. Onward and Forward.
WOW this is powerful stuff... You are right... my head was hanging pretty low recently (much more so since her Communications proposal came out).
Working on self esteem, smiling at her (I actually am fairly positive now (used to be extreme pessimist) and even all of this junk in my life hasn't made me become pessimistic again... still smile, want to do nice things for others, am working on my kids to help them be better people (kinder, explaining to them concepts I'm learning in church as I join about the religion; trying to connect more with them).
Thank you for sharing this with me
A short while later I went into office where she was and very calmly told her, "I am so sorry for the tree last year, and
about so many other things from the past. If I could go back and change the past, and do things differently, I would do it In a heartbeat. For that matter if I had that ability I'd go back even further and kick my younger self in the ass for how he was behaving... but I can't change what's happened. I can only change the future and that's what I'm working on, becoming the best me I can be because I never want to be that way again in any relationship I'm likely to have in the future.
H man you have to stop this. Why are you apologizing for? You both did the things in the MR to get you to this point. Is she apologizing to you for having an A, how sorry she is, wishes she could take it back, etc?
She's texted me several times about logistical things... I responded...
Guessing this is OK? as long as I'm not the one initiating?
You can respond if she asks you a question. No need to respond if it is just informational. You should not initiate conversations unless they are kid or finance related.
H man you have to stop this. Why are you apologizing for? You both did the things in the MR to get you to this point. Is she apologizing to you for having an A, how sorry she is, wishes she could take it back, etc?
I hear what you are saying... and she's told me she's sorry that A hurts me...
I'm thinking of this more in terms of helping her to heal... I did ALOT of crap to her over the years... regardless of outcome now... and the fact that what she's doing is all on her... I still want to help her heal if I can for the past.
Hermes, you've been getting some awesome advice so do read and re-read it to keep on track. The only thing I would like to add is slooooooow down! You seem very concerned that every little thing you do may make or break your recon chances and you keep coming back here to describe every little interaction to see if you "did the right thing". The reason we call this a marathon is because it takes a long, long time to resolve. BD may have seemed sudden to you but to your W it was the culmination of months or years of what she felt was neglect in the M. She thought about it a long time before BD'ing. Now that she has BD'd, she feels like she shouldn't and can't go back. Right now no matter what you do she is done with you. She doesn't like you, she may even hate you. Why? Because it's her way of justifying BD and D. The key to getting her back is changing yourself and letting her see those changes over a long period of time. No one thing you do is going to make or break your recon chances, rather it's the aggregate of what you do over the coming months or maybe even years (yes it can take that long). So change for YOU, not for her. And be very patient.
Also please read Sandi's rules at least once a day.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072A lot of people misinterpret DB'ing and especially detachment as them needing to be cold, indifferent and uncaring towards their WAS. That is not detachment, not at all. Most WAS's felt the LBS was like that for a long time anyway, so in fact that would be "more of the same" behavior. DB'ing is something of an art form- it's standing firm, being strong and establishing boundaries but doing it in a loving, respectful manner. I think that's where Sandi's rules really shine, it helps to understand how you go about doing that.
I'm thinking of this more in terms of helping her to heal... I did ALOT of crap to her over the years... regardless of outcome now... and the fact that what she's doing is all on her... I still want to help her heal if I can for the past.
Quit thinking in those terms. She doesn't want anything from you right now, ESPECIALLY help with anything. Your job is to remove yourself from her life as much as possible. Give her time and space. Do not help her with anything unless she specifically asks, and there are some here that feel you shouldn't help even if she does ask (the thinking being that if an OM is involved then you're just being used, which I don't disagree with).
Cosign exactly what AnotherStander says. If OM is in the picture, then let his a** step up. The time to jump through hoops has come and gone. Focus on yourself, because that is the only thing she is doing.
Hermes, you've been getting some awesome advice so do read and re-read it to keep on track.
I'm going back over it and pulling out the nuggets not only for this forum but for myself... re-reading them...
The only thing I would like to add is slooooooow down! You seem very concerned that every little thing you do may make or break your recon chances and you keep coming back here to describe every little interaction to see if you "did the right thing". The reason we call this a marathon is because it takes a long, long time to resolve. BD may have seemed sudden to you but to your W it was the culmination of months or years of what she felt was neglect in the M. She thought about it a long time before BD'ing. Now that she has BD'd, she feels like she shouldn't and can't go back. Right now no matter what you do she is done with you. She doesn't like you, she may even hate you. Why? Because it's her way of justifying BD and D. The key to getting her back is changing yourself and letting her see those changes over a long period of time. No one thing you do is going to make or break your recon chances, rather it's the aggregate of what you do over the coming months or maybe even years (yes it can take that long). So change for YOU, not for her. And be very patient.
Also please read Sandi's rules at least once a day.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072I know I have to force myself to slow down... it's just becoming EXTRA real now that her in home is almost over and everyone knowing... she's pulled away almost completely... sleeping with OM at least 1x/week maybe more... always online with him (seems like A is escalating the closer she gets to leaving... but maybe that's all in my mind). I also know I have to stop "caring" about this... but she still is firmly in my heart which is why this hurts so badly and hard to distance myself from.
I know, and believe also, that I can't talk my way out of something I've behaved myself into, and as well that this took years to get to the breaking point (I did so MANY things wrong)...
I just really don't think/believe/feel, that she will ever look back once she's left and D is final. I GAL, but short of removing myself from her presence (i.e. GAL every day which isn't fair to or possible with kids). The pain grows by the day as we get closer… Feb she moves out.
She tries to Hide her actions as best possible I think on some level she really is trying to be "kind" to me… (I know from talking with DB Coach and from reading other's stories... that things could be MUCH MUCH worse than they are... but knowing that doesn't make me feel BETTER about my sitch).
I know in my head that she's been gone for a long time and that the marriage for her doesn't exist anymore regardless of what the church/state says (that's likely the only way she can justify and continue what she's doing with OM... and with what's coming...)
Even though I've been agonizing over what to tell Parents and kids... I know there's nothing I say that will make it better... only things I can say that will make it much worse at this point and likely make the D MUCH harder [making her furious with me disclosing A for example right now (i.e. telling them the truth about everything including what I did over years, and her role in things back then and more recently)...)]
I know the advice in DB book is that it takes 1 month for every year of marriage... 20 in my case...
I don't tend to think of D and heartache of it when I GAL... but that only happens a couple of times a week; I am enjoying the respite that church brings, and I know I must work hard to get closer with D13 as she's pretty angry with me most days right now and I suspect when we tell them likely to get even angrier).
More than anything I want for us to be a family and R... knowing full well that is a fantasy…
A lot of people misinterpret DB'ing and especially detachment as them needing to be cold, indifferent and uncaring towards their WAS. That is not detachment, not at all. Most WAS's felt the LBS was like that for a long time anyway, so in fact that would be "more of the same" behavior. DB'ing is something of an art form- it's standing firm, being strong and establishing boundaries but doing it in a loving, respectful manner. I think that's where Sandi's rules really shine, it helps to understand how you go about doing that.
Thank you for this… I'm working hard to detach in loving ways (when I said I'd like for her to sleep in spare room again I did it as lovingly as I could at the time… I had a hard time sleeping with you.
I'm now working on being quiet, not starting conversations but responding warmly and generously when she does... It's hard because there is a lot I'd like to share with her... AND it's even harder as she NEVER shares anything about her day/week what's going on (e.g. yesterday she made some food... took it to work for some reason... no idea why or what it was about). But know this is part of her process of getting rid of me... Only sharing her day with OM each day... Only talking to me about logistical things (did I look for work, how did that go, etc. any interviews, etc. and kid related things, MAYBE one or two other tidbits... funny joke, etc... i.e. things she'd share with a friend...).
I'm thinking of this more in terms of helping her to heal... I did ALOT of crap to her over the years... regardless of outcome now... and the fact that what she's doing is all on her... I still want to help her heal if I can for the past.
Quit thinking in those terms. She doesn't want anything from you right now, ESPECIALLY help with anything. Your job is to remove yourself from her life as much as possible. Give her time and space. Do not help her with anything unless she specifically asks, and there are some here that feel you shouldn't help even if she does ask (the thinking being that if an OM is involved then you're just being used, which I don't disagree with).
She does specifically ask from time to time... I try to be helpful as refusing would play into the old pattern and even though I get what others are saying about not lifting a finger to help her. I use the lens... would I do this for my sister? if I would then I do it for her.
How do you deal with having WW in house when D is now announced to world including kids (after XMas) when she's not moving out for another month...
She now sleeps downstairs.
I just go "OUT" on calendar now as she's not telling me squat (Happy Hour) is generally all I know unless it's something I'd otherwise know about then it's details..
H,
Can you be more specific?
Working on these:
My goals used to be:
1. have a week without R/M/A talk..
2. Always be polite to her
3. Always speak softly to her (no raised voice)
4. Never us harsh words with her (to herself or others about her)
5. Join Church, attend regularly
6. GAL (at least 2x/week if not more)
7. Focus more on kids (this still needs ALOT of work)
8. Secure a Job
9. be reserved in my conversations w her (don't start, but if she does respond kindly and warmly).
10. Balance (If I am feeling out of whack or starting to... take a time out go for a walk, but do this kindly if in middle of discussion).
11. Keep working on how to communicate more effectively and better (as this was the biggest breakdown we had and still do have to a lesser extent)
12. Keep reading self-help books to improve self... take notes.
13. Go back over notes from past on DB forum and notes from Self help...
14. Re-read DB/DR as needed to remind me of goals.
and signs of improvement
1. She will start a conversation with me. (She does but only logistical typically)
2. She will smile at me from time to time (She has really occasionally)
3. She will be polite and kind to me (She has become more polite thanking me in return.)
4. She will let me know she's sorry for A (She's sorry it hurts me...)
5. She will watch a TV show with me (She did for a short while, now it's only if S15 wants to watch and I watch as a group).
6. ? still working on these...?
_________________________
Well...
We're telling Family and kids just after Xmas...
BUT her lease starts in Feb.
It's just ALOT harder now that she's to the point of taking action... Before I guess I somehow put it out of my mind... Now with A accelerating (Really think they are going to make a go of it together... given how hard they BOTH are working at it and have been... they both seem to be in Love with each other after multiple years)
It's getting harder for me to deal with this the closer the end gets... especially with her in front of me daily... Not acting mean... but acting cold and detached toward me mostly... and knowing she's actively working to keep her hatred of me going to justify and push her towards the finish line...
Let her take action and move out. Make sure when you tell people (outside of your kids) that you don't follow her script. You don't need to shield her from other adults.
I want you to reframe her taking action from a negative to a positive. I know it's not easy, but here's why.
Right now, YOU are the cause of all her problems. She perceives you to be the villain and everything that is bad for her is because of you.
YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT! At least right now.
When she leaves, she's going to come to the realization that her problems didn't suddenly just 'poof' vanish now that you're not around and in her face. They in fact followed her to the new place. So now she will have to confront the problems because she cannot pin them on you any more.
This is crucial because she has not yet taken into account how she has let the MR down and what her shortcomings are. She has blamed you full steam. But one person (outside of abuse) is never responsible for the failure of the MR. Heck it's not even 50-50 split sometimes, with more failures on the WW/WAS side of the street.
So, don't fear her leaving and that this will be the end of things. This is her journey and she has to figure out herself. If she doesn't, do you really want that type of woman as your partner? Right now your answer is most likely yes, but because you're seeing your MR through rose-tinted glasses.
Trust me, once those glasses come off, you will realize how much your W was lacking in the MR and if there is ever a helluva chance to recon, you will not accept her back as is. I am telling you this from experience.
If my W ever came back for recon, I have a list of non-negotiable things that will need to happen. If she balks at any of it, I am free to walk. I am already moving forward, so I can just continue.
Trust me that your strength will come. Let her go and focus on yourself. You have listed some great things as your goals. Now develop timelines and put yourself fully into them. Her moving out is going to be a huge relief to you. Just let a few weeks pass by and you'll see. My blood pressure went down into the normal range after my W moved out. I was able to verify it with hard data lol.
Take a deep breath and stay cool. Be polite and gracious, but not a doormat and hold your boundaries firm.
You got this!!!!
H,
You have to accept the realization that your W is leaving in February and there is nothing you can do to make it better and if your not careful you can and will make it worse. All your focus should be on you and your kids future.
The possibility of reconciliation is years down the road.
Let her take action and move out. Make sure when you tell people (outside of your kids) that you don't follow her script. You don't need to shield her from other adults.
I plan to tell people that she left the relationship... not sure that I will ever tell people that she left for among other things another man she's been seeing behind my back for years....
I want you to reframe her taking action from a negative to a positive. I know it's not easy, but here's why.
Right now, YOU are the cause of all her problems. She perceives you to be the villain and everything that is bad for her is because of you.
YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT! At least right now.
When she leaves, she's going to come to the realization that her problems didn't suddenly just 'poof' vanish now that you're not around and in her face. They in fact followed her to the new place. So now she will have to confront the problems because she cannot pin them on you any more.
This is crucial because she has not yet taken into account how she has let the MR down and what her shortcomings are. She has blamed you full steam. But one person (outside of abuse) is never responsible for the failure of the MR. Heck it's not even 50-50 split sometimes, with more failures on the WW/WAS side of the street.
So, don't fear her leaving and that this will be the end of things. This is her journey and she has to figure out herself. If she doesn't, do you really want that type of woman as your partner? Right now your answer is most likely yes, but because you're seeing your MR through rose-tinted glasses.
Trust me, once those glasses come off, you will realize how much your W was lacking in the MR and if there is ever a helluva chance to recon, you will not accept her back as is. I am telling you this from experience.
If my W ever came back for recon, I have a list of non-negotiable things that will need to happen. If she balks at any of it, I am free to walk. I am already moving forward, so I can just continue.
I know I'm looking through selective lenses right now... and I did a heluva lot to her in term of bad behavior (mostly inaction and words) but I also realize that the A is all on her from point a until now when she refuses to end it and even today I'm sure (like every Friday for god knows how long) left work early spent the WHOLE afternoon with him... came home late to pickup things to go out... and after her event went BACK to his place which is where she is likely at now...
Just makes me sad that the woman of my dreams has become someone I can't even recognize let alone want to be with (I had to ask her to leave the BR after she left for a couple days because she was upset... because I realized I sleep much better without her there given how I cannot touch her only look at her from afar...
Don't want my feelings to veer into hate... but it's getting harder by the day...
Not sure I even want to talk to her anymore given how she lies either overtly or by omitting the truth to fit her situation (just say I went out with a "friend" or was having fun sorry forgot about the time...
Trust me that your strength will come. Let her go and focus on yourself. You have listed some great things as your goals. Now develop timelines and put yourself fully into them. Her moving out is going to be a huge relief to you. Just let a few weeks pass by and you'll see. My blood pressure went down into the normal range after my W moved out. I was able to verify it with hard data lol.
No idea why I'm dreaing the "Big Reveal" to everyone family/kids/friends... perhaps as this makes it feel irreversible at that point (the dynamo will have such inertia that even IF she had second thoughts, with everyone expecting her to follow through AND OM who's already f'ed his marriage to be with her undoubtedly pressuring her along with Anti-Marriage IC that she has telling her she "DESERVES" to put herself first... be happy F' the cost or damage it causes... Running away is the ANSWER!
[Sorry venting a bit]
Take a deep breath and stay cool. Be polite and gracious, but not a doormat and hold your boundaries firm. You got this!!!!
I'm trying HARD to be the rock that can weather the storm... not say anything I'll regret REGARDLESS of the fact that she is coming more Unglued by the day.
Maybe because I'm unemployed I have TOO much time on my hands... but at the same time... This has given me the ability to really dig in and start working on me... along with a bit of obsessing about relationship... which has not been great...
So... Today...
Past week or so I've been using LRT...
Tried to keep contact brief... worked hard not to be first person to initiate conversation.
Not following her around, I'm working hard to be very reserved. and we've had 0 M/R/A talks since Sunday (other than her thanking me for sharing a list of what I wish I could do differently from the past (that I told her specifically was NOT aimed at changing her mind... that I knew her mind was made up... AND I told her I didn't expect nor want a response to this... (both at beginning and end of letter).
Yesterday I'm sure she spent time with OM all afternoon again (as I didn't see her before D13 and I went out to Dinner) and then didn't see her at all until almost midnight (no contact all day). (she did have an event to go to for a while but it's never taken that long before... but I digress).
This AM... She went out... I made some xmas treats.
She got back and unfortunately saw me praying... wasn't my intention (she snuck into house and crept up stairs so I didn't hear her). She seemed surprised but didn't say anything.
She got ready, I went in to get ready... we exchanged small talk... She made a few comments... I replied back in a way that I thought was kind (saying thank you and letting her know she could have some of the xmas cookies I made).
She asked about something with D13... I replied back with what I knew about it... and even made an additional comment or two.
Friend called... so I excused myself from room to talk... after that while I was getting ready. She came in and told me about each of the errands she was going to run this AM. I said OK... she said AM I going out? I said, I'll probably run errands later. She asked if I was still going out tonight. I said yes. Probably leaving at 3pm or 3:30pm.
She asked if we could talk tomorrow while kids are out... (About D messaging again; didn't go well last week as I wanted to tell my parents both our parts in this but agreed she could tell hers whatever she wants but I would not lie... [see earlier posts]). I said OK.
Then she asked if she did something wrong... (She's asked this several times over the past week)... I wanted to say other than sleeping with another man that you are leaving me for..... But knew this wouldn't help so I said instead, no nothing... very calmly... (I ended up smiling just a tiny bit... It's a nervous tick... that [censored])... she caught this and started to jump on me for thinking this is funny... I replied very calmly about it being a nervous tic...(she knows this and has seen it before in me)... She then told me that this doesn't have to be this way... me acting so coldly towards her... if she's done something to upset me, I should let her know... and she's trying really hard to be nice etc. I again said calmly ok. and I'm sorry you feel this way... she walked away.
No idea if the LRT is having any effect... she's certainly not warming up to me... seems to enjoy the freedom to become more active in A quicker.
Working on remaining calm... not reacting to her. Not defending myself. non-confrontational. (Trying to not be passive aggressive... but I think she may think that me getting quiet is this... as In the past I would have done this when I was mad at her... (which is why she may be working to pull me out by asking what she did wrong).
Trying to decide if it's worth it to say...
I don't agree to "We're getting a Divorce"
You are getting a Divorce, I am being Divorced.
I would like for you/us to say "You: I am divorcing H. I also want us to not say "we're private people, please respect our privacy... blah blah."
With kids I am DEFINITELY not ok with saying we're getting a divorce... I'd like for us to be honest with them... Your mom and I have been fighting a lot, we've been disagreeing on many, many, different things including what should happen to the future of our marriage. This is no different, we really do disagree about this, but since it takes 2 people to work at a marriage and to make it work, we are going to separate/divorce.
We've ALWAYS told them to persevere and double down when you have difficulties in life.. and this doesn't put either of us in a position to lie to kids about things... which they will figure out fairly quickly and then feel misguided and betrayed by this.
I also Vehemently disagree with the we're private people BS speech to kids... they are our CHILDREN... not passing acquaintances or friends.
We both agree not to entertain blame/counterblame with kids... just state the fact as is and if/when they ask, let them know we both love them, it's not either of their faults, and tha we are committed to being there for them going forward. Only saying something generic like, there were many things both of us did that led to this point in time; getting into specifics and blame is not helpful right now.
I'm balancing this with what DB coach advised me... to just agree with her and go along with it... (statements aren't "lies" we are getting a divorce (I just see it as her divorcing me and me being divorced)...
Any additional thoughts on my actions?
Am I being cold to her? I didn't think I was/had been... but I'm not being all smiles and greeting her anymore... (I try to just smile and be upbeat but not exuberant around her... which is getting more difficult with time).
I have avoided being in rooms with her... (Not running out when she comes in... but gradually finding myself somewhere else).
Also know it's likely to get bad again tomorrow when we discuss telling family kids...
Feels like I'm missing something from MWD's advice on LRT if/when spouse says what's going on? why are you so cold?
Q: did I just f up???
We returned from errand
Talked to her bro on phone. When she got off I was about ready to leave. She started crying a little after phone call (probably about brother who’s not doing well) but she didn’t say anything to me. I Said I was going out for about 1 hour. She kept crying a little bit said nothing... I almost went back and said what’s going on? What’s wrong? But stopped myself.
Feels like I f’ed up...
Any thoughts on if this the right thing to do?
Wondering if this was cold or if this was LRT, she didn’t say anything to me... but I also didn’t approach her. Was cleaning in kitchen while she was on phone... after this I said very calmly going out for 1 hour...
H,
You could have said “would you like to talk about” then listened and validated.
Do not stress or worry about it because it wouldn’t change anything.
H,
You could have said “would you like to talk about” then listened and validated.
Do not stress or worry about it because it wouldn’t change anything.
I know it won't change anything... thinking of this more in terms of making sure that I am "lovingly detaching" while LRT vs. cold or mean or being a b@$t*d. Need to figure this out so in future I can do better regardless of relationship w WW.
Another wrinkle:
This PM went out to run errands... came home, WW asked if we could talk... Spoke about logistical things... I was polite but reserved.
Then she asked about plans for x-mas (also logistical) but tied into BD on Family and kids re: D.
Made a snide comment @ how we won't speak again until tomorrow... I let it go didn't respond.
She also, made comment about how we could wait until tomorrow to do this... if I didn't want to talk now.
I gave my opinion (I think if we tell her P just after X-mas we should stay there that night and maybe just call my P vs visit... they are very old and get easily upset... worried that us showing up (which they would love and look forward to if I said we were coming) only to tell them several hours after arriving the D is imminent; or worse, having a nice time with them on arrival then waiting until next morning just before leaving to tell them, might not be good for them... but suppose there isn't a good way to do this.
She also said she's trying to work with me and do this the right way...
I said I am as well...
She said, It doesn't feel like it.
I didn't say anything.
Dreading conversation tomorrow...
Know this again won't change anything... and know that reaction from LRT can be negative... and I'm committed this time to keeping this going... but have to make sure I'm at least giving it my best effort in not being cold but reserved...
worried my responses to her (In retrospect I Haven't been smiling and happy with her when we communicate... but these conversations (I would just say I've been normal or a bit 'meh as in indifferent))
Thoughts on these interactions... or on messaging. (know some say I should say whatever I want, or tell her P and mine w/o details... but also balancing this with being kind and factoring in D process and how pissing her off now might impact that process given that we're headed full steam there).
One more that I'm feeling pretty certain on and want some outside thoughts on:
She's said she hopes I can forgive her for what she's done to me someday (just like I said this to her prior to her saying this to me).
Know telling her won't make any difference...
But I'm really starting to firm up my thoughts on this:
I can forgive her for the A, but I don't know if I will ever be able to forgive her for leaving me for another man (when D is over).
Regardless of what she says @ the A not having "ANYTHING" to do with her decision(and I know she has good reason from past to WAW...) The fact that she's giddy about the OM and appears "Head Over Heels" in Love with him (for at least 7 months and likely ALOT longer given how long they've been at this). She is in effect leaving me to be with OM at this point in time (guessing that's one of the prime reasons she's DEATHLY afraid of A getting out to Family/Friends/etc.; it would make the OM MUCH harder to be with if her Fam ended up rejecting him..[not that this is my motivation for them to know... I'm more about them knowing b/c I did ALOT of crap in the past, much of which they are aware of... but I want them to know that when push came to shove and she told me she wanted to leave... I took a hard look at self; did a 180 on vast majority of behaviors and still working on self as it's right thing to do for me (and if we're together for her), but that the sad reality is there is OM waiting in wings for her and she has decided she wants to be with OM). I saw enough from discovery of A to know this 4 certain. (She might have ended up leaving anyway, but with OM it was 110% guaranteed once she decided she'd like to leave to be with OM).
I feel I owe them an explanation (not of in the weeds but broad brushstrokes on this unlike me being laid off or her having Health Scare a while back... no need to tell them @ these as they are not certain... this is certain and directly affects them).
Or is this just Pride getting in way of DB?
H,
To simplify it for you think about a neighbor. If you saw a neighbor crying what would you do?
Lh19,
Yeah I f’ed up again... not that it’d change anything... just sad I’m not learning quicker.... I’m generally considered pretty smart... sigh
I feel for your sitch, you're obviously under a lot of stress and pain. Why is the W involved in telling your parents? You can tell them whatever you want. I would tell your inlaws the truth too. The kids are more challenging. Have you read MWD's advice on telling children? I would tell them what you wrote above. You cannot give any details, but your children are old enough that once divorced they will figure out what's going on.
Hang in there.