Here is my old thread, got asked to begin a new one...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...t=11&page=1I'm sure I will pick up where I left off at some point and begin sharing updates on my sitch again. Just a brief review for now. My signature sums up the quick details. To summarize thus far: like many of you, I share a similar story... WW, young child, separated, WW in an A, two BD's,got tired of the lies, trying my best each day to balance and be the best in me. I found out in early July WW had not ended the A (as I was led to think), I joined this site, I read the DR/DB books, I began to DIM, I realized that WW lying about the A was one of my boundaries, I realized my WW is very symptomatic of MLC, I did a 2nd BD,took 3 days after 2nd BD and WW called me crying/apologizing, I finally wrote down my goals (after prompting from a number of you), I am getting pulse checks regularly, Here I am.
I called this thread the "Fight for Self" for two reasons: 1. So many of you have supported me in my efforts and generally offered accolades for my GAL's (not always for my techniques on the 180, which I understand the 2x4's are swung with loving kindness). 2. From all of my reading and introspection, I have come to believe that all of this work we do here - at it's core - is truly a fight for the self. This is our journey. We may support one another here, may get support from others, may report to an IC, etc, but what it comes down to is that everything about MWD's message and almost any readings you will find, is that this is the hardest issue we will ever face and that it is a choice we make for ourselves. However, if we choose the fight for self and really fight, we will find that no matter what happens, we will come out better, stronger, and with more to offer this world and others than we ever realized was possible. IMO, you newbies (I am still new, but something changed in my confused messy head) would do well to understand that sooner than later.
Allow me to be clear, and my S w/ my WW aside, I am in a better place for myself, right now. This does not mean I am in a good place, nor does it mean I won't backslide, get angry again, etc., etc. No, it means what it says, I am in a significantly better place. If it helps anyone, some of what I did to get here was instinctual and some of it was through education. Here are what I think the most helpful points of my journey thus far have been (all part of GAL and healing - some of this is a repeat to what you may know):
What I had to Accept:
- I cannot control my WW's actions, only my own
- My WW is not my W, my WW is confused, selfish, and hurting right now - this is not dissimilar to drug addict behavior or adolescence. Accepting this is not accepting WW's actions, but accepting that I now understand what is happening.
- My WW is in a PA or was or whatever. This involves someone else having sx w/ her. Adults have sx and this is not my problem, my primary problem was the lies. It took some time to realize that. I had to accept it was on me to stop envisioning things beyond my control.
- I to acknowledge the part I played in neglecting my M. I was a contributor, but not the cause.
- I had to change my strategy because to old ones were not getting me anywhere.
- Emotions go through stages, mine & hers. These stages are natural.
- I had to envision a different future which may not include my W as my W.
- I had to accept that it was not just WW who needed space, I did too. This is something I can control.
What I did to begin healing:
- Accept the above
- I had to get educated about everything I could stand regarding my sitch, self-improvement, MLC, A's, modern marriage, you name it. Get educated.
- Not only establish my boundaries, but enforce them once I did.
- Acknowledge what was needed to be worked on inside myself.
- Stop worrying what my WW was doing and focus on myself
- Not just think of goals/strategies/indicators, but actually write them down along with an action plan and then work the plan
- Make a definitive distinction that if I go down this road it is for me and for me alone.
- Make a decision that I will do my very best to not become angry at things beyond my control, the past or the present.
- I had to forgive myself for past actions, recent or otherwise.
- I had to begin the path to forgive my WW, even when this felt like the most difficult thing in the world. I refuse to go through life angry at what happened and the only way to avoid that is through forgiveness.
- I had to seek professional IC for my own matters.
- I had to become the person I always wanted to be and somehow quit trying to be. I had to regain a vision of myself, regain a personal mission, and I had to do this all for me.
- I made a decision to view my sitch as a gift, not one that was welcome, but one that was needed. The gift being, I could have chosen violence, I could have chosen passivity, I could have chosen to remain as I was; instead, I have chosen to improve the self, and this has made all the difference in the world.
- I had to GAL.
How I GAL:
- I sought a support group, I landed here and am happy about that.
- I focus upon being a better father to my S4 and truly accepting/enjoying the time I have with him.
- I exercise 6 days a week and use different approaches. I am still at the point where doing this exhausts my body so that it does not matter where my mind is,i.e create a reason to sleep.
- I eat better and learn about that.
- I attend IC meetings 3x a month.
- I try to be present at work (yeah, this slips sometimes) and do the best I can each day.
- I began writing semi-professionally again.
- I do volunteer work.
- I took up a new hobby that is positive (learning how to rock climb).
- I keep a journal
- I play my instruments (guitar/bass)
- I dress better and take care of my appearance (you'd be surprised how much you let yourself go during the M)
- I walk my dog
- I challenge myself to meet new people, project a positive attitude, and to welcome conversations as opposed to avoiding them.
So the above are what I have done/am doing. Not sure if it helps, not sure if it is 100% copacetic with the program, but it works for me. I am sure I left some things out - I was trying to empty my head as best I could. Maybe reading this could help a newbie or someone who has been here for a bit. Maybe it was just cathartic for me to write (as most of what I write here is). Anyway, thanks for the support thus far and...I'm still in the fight - and the fight is for me to be a better me.
Some questions I found valuable during this time period:
What would happen if you accepted yourself for all your flaws, all your talents, as you are?
Who do you need to forgive in your life?
Do you understand that the quality of your life is in direct relation to the depth and authenticity of you forgiveness?
Does a path towards healing begin by forgiving yourself?
What is it I am not willing to let go of and how is this hurting me and those around me?
Can I accept that forgiveness is not about letting the other person win, but it is about my own personal freedom?
What attachments do I have and are they the things that are part of what I really want?
What action am I taking, not tomorrow, but today, what are my actions for achieving what I really want?
What is my gift, I.e. What are my talents?
If I am not living a life which allows me to share my gifts, what is stopping me from being my gift?
If someone took away all of my possessions, what would I be left with? Would I look towards my relationships, my health, and my talents or would I be mired in self-pity, depression, and negative thought?
Why am I always trying to get somewhere? Somewhere at my job, somewhere in a relationship, somewhere I can be happy - do I stop and realize I may already have found where I am trying to get.
Have I realized that if I truly believe all will be well for me in the end that I can have peace?
Have I realized that if I am not well that this is not the end?
So I am no yogi, I am not religious, I do not meditate. And, I am not well yet, but I do realize I am not at the end. Anyway, I still have much work to do, but I found most of these to be very valuable questions that I found searching around places looking for anything to hang on to. I am not sure they will assist in making the WW or WH come home, but they may help you achieve that goal of improving you.
Oops, forgot my trading for a moment - those are not questions I created. Not trying to take credit. However, I did not document sources, just wrote them down, so......
Today has been a tough one. Don't know why, just where I am at mentally – pouring rain outside might contribute – really screws up my attention. Have to remind myself of things about me and the positive changes I have made for me and my better R with S (had him last night and it was really great).
I have noticed the reasons I believe I am dealing with an MLC.
MLC stressors/behaviors:
- history of PA/EA abuse growing up
- moved across country (to be w/ me) and did not make good friends here
- just turned 40
- has complained about loosing looks, feeling unattractive
- has changed jobs 3 x since 2014 (same profession)
- is two years shy of age when mother died
- in past year had 2 BF's die suddenly in past 2 years and found out father was very ill (he did recover recently)and felt helpless being so far away
- began an A w/ a co-worker 9 years younger and claimed she did so because he could be controlled
- stated (a vast number of times) that she uses A to make her feel bad an reinforce to herself she is a horrible person
- has continually expressed that she does not feel accomplished in life
- has admitted to sabotaging her life and relationships without knowing why or feeling in control of her actions
- binges between food, alcohol, and exercise
- spends money excessively knowing that she does not have it
- has complained that changes happened so fast she felt lost and without direction
- has admitted to being unwilling to face past issues and/or try to resolve them at this time
- has asked me to date others so that it would lessen her guilt
- has admitted a fear of becoming her mother if she keeps trying to remain in a committed family life
- has admitted to having nightmares about the fact that S4 was two months premature and barely made it through (S4 is fine now and perfectly healthy - has been for years
- has admitted to having nightmares about all of the pain and hurt she has brought to me and still cannot stop her actions
- has alienated her immediate family and some friends, with whom she used to be very close, from all of the above
So, all of the above fit into the MLC paradigm from what I have read. Here is what I have not heard which is on the usual list of MLC items
- Never heard ILBNILWY
- Never claimed A was about anything more than what I wrote above
- Has not abandoned or ignored S4 since the S, in fact I would say WW has improved her game as a mother
- has never introduced AP to friends, family, or S4 (which is a very distinct boundary for me that I have made clear)
- Brought up D during the initial S month, but not since
- has never verbally chastised me, belittled me, or made any attempt to blame anything she is doing on me (did acknowledge the damage we did to each other and my role in the breakdown of the M once I identified and apologized for my part, but she has not made this a focus when we used to discuss the M)
Other than that, pretty much is - still a WW, still S, still not ending the A (I only asked once and that was 1st BD), still showing addiction and adolescent behavior, still pulse checking, still trying to eat cake but realizing that does not get very far these days, etc. I am hoping to offer a fuller description of myself and deepen my understanding of not only my sitch, but of myself with this new thread.
As someone told me here not long ago, I do not have to worry about getting through tomorrow, I have to get through today.
MLC stressors/behaviors:
- history of PA/EA abuse growing up
Can you explain this one? Are you saying as a child she was the victim of a physical or emotional sexual abuse?
Ride on,
WOW - nice catch, it did not occur to me how easily toses abbreviations could be mixed up here since we use them differently. So yes physical abuse and emotional abuse as a child; she was and I was as well in a very similar manner, was one of our early connections when we first met as teenagers.
Thanks for that list. My W is also scarred from some events in her childhood. Along w/ many of the other factors you list. So it makes me think MLC might be a strong component of what's going on w/ her. MLC + wayward. I think someone could be both...?
Thanks for that list. My W is also scarred from some events in her childhood. Along w/ many of the other factors you list. So it makes me think MLC might be a strong component of what's going on w/ her. MLC + wayward. I think someone could be both...?
Man, I wish I could answer that. I am not sure, but I do think one begets the other and I think the MLC is in the lead. I should have included: - narcissistic low self-esteem, impulsive to my list. These are also indicators I have seen, but I guess I could do that all day. Anyway, if you suspect the odds lie in the MLC direction there appears to be some real shtty news, it takes a lot longer for someone to process this than just a "my marriage is horrible and this guy makes me feel alive" type of affair. The WW must come out of it on their own - not that that part is different, but from what I have read the MLC is a true mental crisis (please do you own research, I am no doctor). It is a battle for the self and moves in stages, not unlike our responses to the situation and our own battle for the self.
I am feeling better at this point in the day, which is a good thing. I had a busy day at work and that was most helpful. S is with WW tonight and that is fine, he wanted to see her pretty badly and I am actually happy for both of them that they love one another and enjoy their time.
So here is what I had to accept as my part in the M. It was important to me to acknowledge so that I could forgive myself (lack of forgiveness = resentment MWD pg. 231 in DB, I have already stated I am unwilling to live that way - see above posts). And even before I read MWD or came here, I did apologize for all of these to my WW at some point (once after reading MWD): I did some at the first BD, some about 2 months into S, and some of it when I did the 2nd bomb drop. I did so each time in a way that left my dignity intact. I said it without tears, begging, or with motives to "win" WW back. I told her just the the things I was sorry for and not how I am changing or have changed, which I know she must see for herself ( a pretty important distinction if you take this path at some point)I said it because I meant it and most importantly it was a piece I truly felt I needed to do so that I could heal - for me, I am not sure I could have forgiven myself and begun moving forward without. Lastly, my approach was deliberate and may not be for everyone, but if there is one thing I have learned so far - if you do not try find your own health and happiness in all this you really are lost in my opinion. And please reflect on the question in an above post - Can I accept that forgiveness is not about letting the other person win, but it is about my own personal freedom?
The things I was sorry for (all not my direct fault, but I have a choice now and have fixed or am working on them):
- First and foremost, I was a drug addict (Rx Oxy) and I hid my drugs from W for almost two years. I did not ever mean to become addicted, but I did, I knew it, and I kept going. I also abused alcohol when the drugs were unavailable. - clean from the Oxy for a little over 6 months now. Still have social drinks, but set limit at 3 and have held to that, honestly appeal is wearing off and am loosing desire for going even that far.
- I am painfully introverted. This is not my fault, but because I could not make the world make sense to me, I criticized the world, which made most of my daily observations quite negative - this I knew and made no effort to challenge or change and that was my fault. I challenge myself to remain positive and speak with strangers about anything daily now.
- I have had a life long struggle to learn and pay attention which resulted in very quick aggression because I was often confused. Throw in the introversion and it is a recipe for R disaster. I always thought I was naturally angry, but after 4 months with an IC and a GP was told I have type 2 Inattentive ADHD. Suddenly many things in my life made sense when I began reading about it. Having ADHD and being in denial of it made me 60% more likely to end up with a spouse walking out on me. Factor in the statistics that I am in a 2nd M and so is my WW - we were (are?) facing a major challenge. It is not my fault I have a learning disability which I did not know was one, but now I have a choice and I go to an IC 2-3 x a month and am temporarily on stabilizing medication. (Imagine 60 radios in your head all at different volumes and on different stations - the medication turns 59 of them off).
- I deliberately ignored my WW (at the time my W) when she would ask me to listen, help her with something, or speak to her. I had my own agenda and wanted to proceed with that. Acknowledged, I fked that part up.
- I never asked her opinion on big decisions, just insisted my opinion was the right one. No argument, I did that, I know I did it.
- I quit being romantic, spontaneous, and fun. From what I read, this happens to men and women in M's, but throw in a drug addiction that makes you enter a coma a few times a day - yup, did it.
- After the S began and I knew WW was in an A, I thought what was good for the goose...yeah, I started sleeping with someone and it was a mess and I did not feel better for it like I hoped I would. This is the only one I did not apologize for to my WW. I started to and she did not want to hear it so I stopped. Instead I apologized to the woman I slept with, even though I was openly honest from the start that she had no future with me. Whatever helps you sleep at night right? No, I was wrong, i messed this part up. Flawed character or pain - little excuse either way.
- I ignored my S. I did. Not to the point that he starved or I beat him or anything. I was just lethargic and showed little interest. As could be imagined, this one still haunts me. I do not try to make up for it, nor excuse it, I am just a better person than I was and I believe S feels it, I know I do. S is my favorite thing in this life and I promise (to myself) that I will never loose track of that again.
What did WW and I do to each other - only two major things...
1. we lied and hid things from each other which caused a downward spiral of deception and secrets.
2. we forgot how or deliberately did not communicate with each other. as we withdrew further into ourselves, the partnership required to be in an M, to be in an R, and to be in L went down with it.
As I said before, I will return to the daily of my sitch at some point with my thread. There are many questions I still have at a daily level that I need advice/help with. But I feel compelled to be open to all of the non-existential items I have offered above. Maybe its too much information, or maybe you don't have time to read it all. I hope my story has something for those take all of it or some of it. Regardless, it makes me feel better to air all this out. Best we don't go so deep with family or friends - they will always take one side or the other - here it is unbiased support, and that is the best part.
Here are some facts I found on A's - MLC or not.
- a majority of couples survive the A rather than going on to D.
- a majority of couples who do survive an A state that their M is "stronger and more committed" as a result.
- women having A's have been increasing since the 1970's and are coming closer to men in their statistical likelihood.
- Infidelity is always a choice
- Monogamy is not a universal concept accepted by all cultures and even more unique in the animal kingdom.
- The effect of an A can be negative, neutral, or positive to all parties involved.
- Jealousy is both biological and socially constructed.
- Most individuals who begin an A will not be able to take the AP relationship beyond the initial first phase of a relationship.
- Over 50% of A last less than 1 year, over 40% last less than 2 years, and the remaining 10% last less than one year or greater than 2.
- If an M is without honest communication that is ongoing the likelihood of an A increases.
- Over 1/3 or 1 in every 2.7 couples will experience an affair. The number is high enough to qualify A's as normal events in one's life.
- No couple can fully understand an A by solely looking at their R. The contributors extend into the biological, psychological, and sociological.
- Narcissistic individuals are more prone to engaging in an A.
- People who begin A's tend to rationalize their behavior and will either ignore, deny, or appear to not care about the negative consequences.
- Research shows that the wayward spouse is capable of loving the LBS while maintaining a romantic attachment to someone else.
- Most A's begun by women take place in the first few years of M if they feel dissatisfaction with themselves, their lives, and the M.
- Polls show that 90% of M couples disapprove of affairs, yet over 1/3 of them will still participate in one.
- Having children increases the likelihood of an A.
So again, these came from different places. Don't have to agree or disagree. Just putting the information out there for consumption.
Thanks for the information CT, very interesting!
This info is sad, depressing, interesting, and shows hope all at the same time. There is hope, but only with hard HARD work will there be any realization of that.
One other stat I'd like to see: How many people who say The only way I'd divorce you is if you committed adultery actually end up doing it. It's one thing to say it, it's another to be involved in it. Especially with a child.
My W fits into so many of these. Especially this: Most A's begun by women take place in the first few years of M if they feel dissatisfaction with themselves, their lives, and the M.
Moreso the first two, but the last one too....
- Most individuals who begin an A will not be able to take the AP relationship beyond the initial first phase of a relationship.
Not sure what "AP" means in this context.
Does this mean that someone who has an affair is unlikely to nurture that affair into a lasting relationship?
Thanks for the list.
This info is sad, depressing, interesting, and shows hope all at the same time. There is hope, but only with hard HARD work will there be any realization of that.
One other stat I'd like to see: How many people who say The only way I'd divorce you is if you committed adultery actually end up doing it. It's one thing to say it, it's another to be involved in it. Especially with a child.
RSG - Those stats are indeed all of those. And for the most part, I saw all of them consistently, perhaps worded differently, but pretty consistent. There is hope my friend.
I'm not sure how many say that and actually do. I know I quit discussing my sitch w/ guy friends because all I heard was "leave the B, you deserve better". But I have a kid, I have history, we have the same values (mostly, mine did not include walking out), I know she is hurting and confused, and I know what I can take in this world. I never said I would leave my W if she had an A, I never thought it. She was always insecure about me and WW told me early in the M that if I ever cheated she would be very angry, but could forgive it. I pretty much felt and still feel the same way. I say "pretty much" because I can handle the sex part (don't like it, but survivable) I was never mentally prepared for the depth of the lies and selfishness that go along with it, to me that was the real betrayal.
Not sure what "AP" means in this context.
Does this mean that someone who has an affair is unlikely to nurture that affair into a lasting relationship?
Thanks for the list.
ForGump - AP = affair partner. Yes, that is exactly what it means. Truth is, most A's are begun on a lie of some sort. WW certainly lied to LBS, but most likely to their AP as well. The WW also lies to mutual friends, their kids, their parents, their siblings, their friends (not all of them), their employers. A level of cover always exists. Also, the A is typically a fantasy that gets caught in the first stage of attraction - emotional need/sexual desire/romantic events. Everyone loves the feeling of new love, but that never lasts, ever. Once real life creeps in, the WW and her A partner see that they are not compatible with real life - car repair, splitting bills, time management, etc. Plus, whatever problems your WW has personally, odds are she hid these flaws from the A partner...and they will come out. So, that is what I read as the reason that WW's A is unlikely to succeed, that is not to say it's impossible.
The other big reason I read was that when the MLC hits the depression stage, the WW begins to realize all that has been risked, ruined, and lost. She will realize that her old H loved her despite all of her flaws, that she risked her kids, that she is (most likely) in some state of financial ruin, and generally most things in her life are all screwed because of her behavior.
Did that answer it? I hope its all true FWIW. I am very much still in the same state of mess that all here are, I am just a real obsessive person about the need for arming myself with information.
First, just catching up on this more recent thread CT. I've got to say, it's a great break from our specific situations. Really puts some perspective on things for all of us I think.
I know I quit discussing my sitch w/ guy friends because all I heard was "leave the B, you deserve better". But I have a kid, I have history, we have the same values (mostly, mine did not include walking out), I know she is hurting and confused, and I know what I can take in this world.
W and I are supposed to tell D about S in 2 weeks when we get back from the beach. I'm viewing that as my jumping off point to tell select friends and family. I'm very worried about the feedback I get from everyone too bc I know it'll be biased towards my feelings.
I'm extremely concerned that we all get bad and biased advice daily from those who honestly care for us. Seems like a natural reaction for them to want our pain to stop. There was a good thread on this, but I can't seem to remember which one.
I honestly think that taking a step out of our situations, even just for 5-10 minutes a day to rationally evaluate what's going on is helpful. Easier said than done, but your thread here seems to be a great touchpoint for that.
Appreciate you CT!
When the MLC hits the depression stage, the WW begins to realize....
Can I take a blue pill and just have reality fast forward to that point in time...?
Hate that we have to drag our kids through this.
I quit discussing my sitch w/ guy friends because all I heard was "leave the B, you deserve better". But I have a kid, I have history, we have the same values (mostly, mine did not include walking out), I know she is hurting and confused, and I know what I can take in this world.
Reminds me of the line from the Thin Red Line where Private Witt says,
"I can take anything you dish out. I am twice the man you are." Your strength is inspiring.
Yeah, I realized early on what worthless echo chambers well-meaning friends can be. They have NO FKNG IDEA how it feels to get crushed by situations like ours, to contemplate what it is and will do to your kids who did not ask for any of this.
For the same reason, I think all the family and friends in my W's life are essentially worthless echo chambers. It's rare for someone to have some wisdom and values, and the balls to stand up for them, when your close friend is doing something idiotic and reckless.
I'm extremely concerned that we all get bad and biased advice daily from those who honestly care for us. Seems like a natural reaction for them to want our pain to stop. There was a good thread on this, but I can't seem to remember which one.
First off, thanks for appreciating. Second, the quote I clipped from you is true. MWD states this in the 1st chapter of DR. I am not flag waiver here for MWD as her writing does not seem to go to the depths those of us here are in (the purgatory of post LRT life/pre WW may or may not be ever coming back so WTF do I do life). Anyway, I did not tell any family about WW's A. I did tell them we were S. I did tell them my mistakes. The reason I did not expose A - 1. maybe her and I put things back together & 2. better or worse, my WW is the mother of my S, and as long as she upholds her job as being a great mother to my S I will not tolerate her honor being smeared in my presence. If I smear it one day, I have earned that right, but no one else earned it as they do not share an S w/ her...my S has to grow up with her and he has to learn from her. I did tell about 5 friends who were just my friends (no mutual or couples friends) and that still did not help. The ones I spoke with did uphold my request to not speak ill of WW, but to listen to the story, until they didn't. I then I had to check them and then I stopped confiding. Now I only speak with one platonic female and one brother level male. You need one or two confidants, choose wisely. Your friends do care for you - that makes them biased - their advice may not match your action plan. And dudes being dudes, they will draw your anger out like a tick does blood.
Your strength is inspiring.
Yeah, I realized early on what worthless echo chambers well-meaning friends can be. They have NO FKNG IDEA how it feels to get crushed by situations like ours, to contemplate what it is and will do to your kids who did not ask for any of this.
Thanks my friend - I have never had another human being level me like my WW has. And despite the fking demons from Hell which rose up to try and take me, here I stand. But I promise that I am not as strong as I intend to be. This is all catharsis and part of healing and part of my GAL. If what I am writing helps others, I tip my hat really low in their direction as a sign of acknowledgement and am proud I could be of service, but my thread is called "Fight for Self" and that fight remains. In a moment of extreme honesty, during the depths of the worst part of my days I am fking dying inside. But WW does not get that b/c I will not offer it. But.... I digress off track
. Your statement about being crushed Forgump is so sublime and true that I wish I could yell it from the roof tops. People talk big game, until the big game comes and they piss their pants.
So I would really like to write about my sitch, but not entirely just yet. I will say, WW have only exchanged about 15 words today, she made 1st contact, I ended it quickly, this is the least we have communicated in years, and only a small part of me feels tugged, at least at this point in my day. Moving on...
Not sure to whom I stated I would put examples of my goals up for today. I must point out that while the MWD books said you should write them down I did not. It was not until in my old thread ForGump called me out specifically about what my goals were that I actually wrote them down (moving the ball forward FG - thank you for calling the play), but anyway I said I would do it, I said I would do it today, honoring my word, so here goes:
Vision - to become a person who can be functionally happy and satisfied independently of any attachments or relationships to things or people in his life.
Mission - to continue to enhance, improve, and advance myself beyond old methods of coping and develop new skill sets which allow diverse approaches towards individual fulfillment and prove success on a daily level.
Goals: (I am not giving all of these in full detail, but you should get the point, also, these goals being specific to me, they may not seem that great - I am posting these as an honest example of what I am doing to help me through this SS of life right now in hopes it assists others. Please do not ask me about specifics, I will not answer - you do yours).
For me:
1. Continue IC to improve understanding R of self in context to R w/ WW, R w/ abusive parent, R w/ S, R w/ anger, and R w/ drug addiction.
2. To apprentice at rock climbing gym to the point of performing a live site climb of an intermediate level rock face.
3. To finish graduate degree in spring 2017 in a way which acknowledges time management, a thing I failed at in the past.
4. To continue management of ADHD and work toward reducing chemical solution and increasing environmental solution.
5. To continue preparing daily activities with my S which are fun, cooperative, and educational on the days that I have him.
6. To live deliberately and get through each day decisively, one day at a time.
For potential R w/ WW:
1. Continue w/ proven 180 & LRT techniques, evaluating them, and changing as necessary.
2. Keep respect & dignity intact by upholding my own boundaries.
3. Listen to her, validate, do not begin arguments, follow the 37, put my hand on my own balls and know they are mine and not in a mason jar on her nightstand - this does not mean be a dk or a-hole.
4. Do not push her away, but let her know I am self-focused and have my own life.
Mileposts for R:
1. I get through more than 2 days without feeling crushed.
2. I must speak the language of action from myself, I must read the language of action from her.
3. She must end the A to begin full recovery of my attention.
4. She must acknowledge her pain and what she is going to do about it.
5. I must stay on this course of action until situation changes or I feel I am not longer able to continue. Plan will be adjusted as necessary.
So no joke, I wrote all of that down. There is more I did not get into, mainly an action plan, but like I said - you do what you like, I said I would reveal this as an example for someone, so here it is. I do not read it on the reg, it may end up a footnote in my own personal history, I am not sure. But, it does help to identify what I want. Will say, notice a clear distinction - the vision is what you want to be in the future, the mission is what you are about, the goals are how you achive the mission and get to the vision, the action hich i did not list is about how you accomplish those goals.
Lets pretend for one minute that the person you truly love most in this world has not been shting on your face for the past few weeks/months/years - doing this exercise is still valuable for your well-being. I offered a model with examples, fill in your own answers, you do not have to write, but at least think about it. Take it a step further and look into it. A marriage is a business partnership as much as it is anything else. Do you want your business to succeed? Do you want your business to be the random "Big Eddie's Sports Cards" on the corner of bumfkegypt and nowhere St. Are you satisfied with a small business. Or do you want it to be like Nike? And, further,...is the business a partnership or a sole proprietor? Get some. Still in the fight.You fight for yourself, victory is assured. Or preferably as my S4 says, "we both win Daddy". Yeah, that little dude loving me, I never loose again.
3. Listen to her, validate, do not begin arguments, follow the 37, put my hand on my own balls and know they are mine and not in a mason jar on her nightstand - this does not mean be a dk or a-hole.
4. Do not push her away, but let her know I am self-focused and have my own life.
Mileposts for R:
1. I get through more than 2 days without feeling crushed.
I chuckled when I read the mason jar sentence. Glad W didn't ask what I was chuckling about.
"Do not push her away ..." I find that hard to do. I feel like the more I go dim, the more it feels like I'm pushing her away.
"Get through ..." -- that was good to read. That others find it hard to just have one or two decent days in a row.
The hard things for me is that I'm still very physically drawn to my W. And we're still under the same roof. So just seeing her, smelling her as she walks near me ... just a split second of that can dismantle the strength I feel like I've gathered over a couple of days.
My sitch update...I think I covered my weekend in the last few posts of my old thread. WW did some things on Monday which left me in a place, I don't know, left me somewhere.
Monday I got emails from her where I was attached in responses. My mother has been recovering from an injury and sends updates to all family at once (mother does know WW and I are S). WW responded to my mother and called her mom (she has called her that since we were teenagers)and also said she loved her. WW also replied to her grandmother who had written me to thank me for some flowers I gave her for her garden last fall - in that WW gushed about how nice it was to have those flowers to remember me by and generally what a great guy I am, also told grandmother she wants me, WW, and our S to make a visit to see her this fall.
Tuesday morning WW asked me for some pictures to send to family and I obliged by just send a few pictures of S and one that had me in it. WW replied all caps about how cute I was and S was in the photos. I did not reply. Later in the day, WW responded to an email from S's teacher, in it WW refered to me as her husband. I did not reply. Tuesday night she called me to tell me she would not be taking a new job she was supposed to begin in a few days, her current employer countered. I was hoping she would take job as she works w/ dude she is in the A with. I went into listening mode and said nothing beyond the validation stuff. WW told me that when the head exec of her company was countering he told her about how she moves through her career with little commitment, patience, and make decisions in haste always running to what looks like the next best thing. The WW said that he told her "...and not to offend, but you do this on a personal level too. I know about your family and how you have separated from your H. What are you running from? You need to sit tight and hold onto things sometime while you learn and you might realize you are right where you need to be." I was still listening, but was surprised to hear WW tell me that part, she could have left it out and I would be none the wiser. Anyway, when it was all said and done I validated -"must have been very hard for you, but you sound positive about this and pleased with your decision".
Yesterday, morning phone call which I answered. I was in 180 mode - short, polite, listen, validate. Got the "is everything ok?" again. I said everything is great - someone knocked on my office door and I used that to get off the phone. Normally I would have been right to expect she contact me again during the day in one form or another, but she did not. I held ground and have not contacted, as I do not make first contact.
Am I being pulse checked? are these legit moves on WW's part to show some effort? I am sticking to my guns as none of this is real progress in a big way, but is it progress?
Am I being pulse checked? are these legit moves on WW's part to show some effort? I am sticking to my guns as none of this is real progress in a big way, but is it progress?
I would say you asked and answered your own questions here.
Remember action is king here, words are just words and we don't believe any of those if you recall.
Do jot this down as potential progress as MWD would teach us, but there is much more needed before you would want to confidently latch on as forward momentum.
Hang in there, the journey is still very much in the beginning stages. Stay in your lane as you did here and you will be alright.
Thanks SH_ I guess I did. Stay in lane, long journey, jot this down. Ahhhh, hell. Need the clarity from time to time.
WW sent emails this morning. Barrage of them around the 10am mark. One was about school thing for S4 (this was the first one and only one I replied to), next was a reply to family I was linked into - but gave me a question about looking at a calendar for visiting trip, next some random one about discounts on beds (she knows my mattress has a broken spring, but its a Queen and I sleep on the other side and it has been broken for a while now), then came her reply to the one about the school item, and about 1 minute ago I got one where WW about me having S4 tonight where WW was clearly trying to be playful w/ me. Bleeeearggggg!
Picture me sitting calmly with a smile (This is your brain) now picture me hitting myself in the back of my head with the business end of a claw hammer (This is your brain on WW).
Picture me sitting calmly with a smile (This is your brain) now picture me hitting myself in the back of my head with the business end of a claw hammer (This is your brain on WW).
This caught me as funny in a disturbed kind of way. Lol
Google F*ck that an honest meditation
It will provide you with a less painful type of smile that does not include any end of a claw hammer.
Picture me sitting calmly with a smile (This is your brain) now picture me hitting myself in the back of my head with the business end of a claw hammer (This is your brain on WW).
This caught me as funny in a disturbed kind of way. Lol
Google F*ck that an honest meditation
It will provide you with a less painful type of smile that does not include any end of a claw hammer.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Holy Sht that was funny! Seriously, thanks, totally needed that.
PS I was speak metaphorically - this is a place where what I said could be mistaken as serious, I have a dark sense of humor - the video you suggested fit well.
Right on CT & SH ... FCK THAT
Sounds like W is emotionally/mentally thrashing about but if she's for real then she'd drop the A. Then you know she's arrived somewhere.
Stay positive (I struggle with that -- that's the part I find hard while going dim, staying genuinely positive w/o seeming cheesy/fake positive)
Sounds like W is emotionally/mentally thrashing about but if she's for real then she'd drop the A. Then you know she's arrived somewhere.
I could not agree more.
Haha that was awesome!! F*ck that. Lol needed a good laugh today!!!
Emails have continued throughout the day. Until about an hour ago I had still only answered the one. I decided to do a small bit of fishing and gave just a bit more personality in responses to one of the later ones. This is not backsliding - I did this on purpose, just to see what would happen. WW brightened up as I expected and she continued pursuit. I gave no answers beyond single sentences, but that was more than I have done in weeks, where answers have been more like "ok" "will do" or "yes". I'm done fishing now, I saw what I was curious about, will return to the standard I just illustrated. Have IC tonight and S4. My IC specializes in child behavior so I do the occasional session w/ my S4. I want IC to see him and makes sure that more damage is not occurring than what is to be expected or what I can see on my own.
Man I hope she is starting to think about what a mistake she's made, and what she's losing by continuing the A .....
Man I hope she is starting to think about what a mistake she's made, and what she's losing by continuing the A .....
I don't feel like I can afford to think that way right now. I may have seen some small steps recently, but keeping myself real demands that I acknowledge this could have been some BS too. Yeah, it does feel a bit better trying to turn around and become the one in the distance, but until that A is done, my focus has to be on me. And my son of course.
However, you said "I hope" so please keep hoping for me ForGump - I will not turn that down.
PS, I listened to that Vedder song you quoted in your thread, I had not heard that one. Holy S! was that fking sad, I couldn't do it.
I keep hoping for everyone who comes to this forum. Kind of weird, this forum, where all the wretched souls gather, exchange electrons, and hope to move on from this purgatory.
The Vedder song has two positive lines:
> I'm beginning to see
> What's left of me is gonna have to be free to survive
I'm working on being free, I'm working on surviving....
I went to my IC tonight, took my S4. IC worked w/ him for about 5 minutes on listening skills then gave him an assignment to play quietly with lego type blocks in the corner while IC & I spoke.
I had not seen IC in a few weeks. So IC had not known my story until the few days before the 2nd BD, so I caught her up. I printed and let her read the very loving email my WW wrote me a few days before I dropped 2nd bomb. I printed the email I wrote WW dropping the 2nd bomb(I ended up telling WW the contents of it on the phone, not via the email). And lastly, I let IC read my WW's response to my dropping of the 2nd bomb. IC read them all in a row - took about 10 minutes. Then it got real pretty quick.
By end of emails, IC had a watery eye, no sht, and then she recovered pretty quick - like I saw something I shouldn't have. IC said something like "honesty like this just doesn't happen, you are very brave [CT118].[name of WW] loves you but is really hurting inside, and doesn't know what to do. Keep your space, and keep giving her space". I'm sure I am not quoting word for word, but I am pretty close. I thanked her, didn't know what else to say. I thought it was pretty cool that her advice was damn near identical to what SH_ and ForGump offered me earlier today - great work guys and it did not cost me some dollars to hear what you had to say.
Then we discussed S4 and played some board games with him. Her specialty is child behavior, there must be a point to the board games, maybe following rules/instructions? So what did S build w/ the blocks... he built a fking house and used three of the people figures to put a mom/dad/child in the house. Yeah, I know, tissue time in crazy town. I asked S4 what he built and he said it was a place for people to be together, so he may not have truly known what he did, but it was obviously a house and there was obviously a family in it. I didn't cry or even feel like it, nor was I angry, but my heart throbbed a massive pump when I saw it. I will not be sharing any of the above w/ WW or anyone else - perhaps here just because this place is anonymous. Some stories are just for ourselves and what S4 did, I doubt I will ever forget it. That boy, my son, he is the champion over me.
Our children are without a doubt the champions in all of this. Their pure love and innocence are without measure. They are the beacons that can give us the strength and hope needed to push on. Without a doubt both of my daughters were the source of my strength and now they are where all my focus goes when I have any moments where the walls may feel to be closing in.
Be sure to hug that little son of yours tonight and as often as you can. Hugs from our children are a great source of strength, as well as they benefit in return knowing the love and security a father can provide.
As you say, these are the stories that you will never forget.
Have a peaceful evening CT. You deserve a peaceful rest tonight.
CT, you might be the first guy who made me cry since I've become an adult, except for when my Dad died. And over the Internet too. Just fcking heart breaking to think about it. What you're going through, just feels like what I'm about to go through with my kids. I swear, to me, this whole thing feels like the choice parents make where they throw themselves in front of a train to save their child. I would do just fcking anything to save my kids from what pain and confusion they are about to go through.
This whole thing just feels like some absurd play. My own Truman Show. And I want someone to turn it off.
Hey CT - I was wondering if in your MLC research you found my homework post from the MLC board?
It has a lot of good info in it that is not included in my first post here, including the MLC resource thread.
Taking a deep breath and a sip of water....thanks everyone for the support. My night w/ S4 was lovely and the brief time this morning too. He will be with S4 tonight and Saturday night.
Cadet - I read and re-read most if not all (hard to know here because I'm not sure one could truly read "all") of the links you posts on MLC and certainly what you put in the homework. That said, I also did some extensive research into external sources of various levels of academic credibility (from journals to people's personal experiences). Basically, my ability to focus is compromised due to my ADHD - one of my mitigation techniques is that I have to write down things I really want to know and remember. So what I posted here came from my notes on the subject. Your posts were very helpful, immense even, and if anyone here begins to suspect an MLC is what they are dealing with, I would fully encourage them to explore the MLC post(s) you and other put up in that section. It really and truly is NOT the same as a spouse just hitting the road because the M was malfunctioning or because they wanted to bump w/ someone else.
And, I truly thank you for drawing those threads to proper attention. Seriously, well done sir [tipping my hat in your direction].
I wanted to avoid my sitch today in many ways. Then this happened...a text from WW at almost 6am about signing S4 up for a field trip, which was today, and I had already dropped him off. Texted back - "I called the facility and gave verbal permission".
Two hours later WW send a you tube link. I click it and it is a song by The Five Stairsteps called O OH Child. I had never heard of it. Here are the lyrics:
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child
Things'll get brighter
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child
Things'll get brighter
Some day, yeah
We'll get it together and we'll get it all done
Some day
When your head is much lighter
Some day, yeah
We'll walk in the rays of a beautiful sun
Some day
When the world is much brighter
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna be easier
Ooh-oo child
Things'll get be brighter
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna be easier
Ooh-oo child
Things'll get be brighter
Some day, yeah
We'll get it together and we'll get it all done
Some day
When your head is much lighter
Some day, yeah
We'll walk in the rays of a beautiful sun
Some day
When the world is much brighter
Some day, yeah
We'll get it together and we'll get it all done
Some day
When your head is much lighter
Some day, yeah
We'll walk in the rays of a beautiful sun
Some day
When the world is much brighter
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child
Things'll get brighter
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child
Things'll get brighter
Right now, right now
Was not sure how to read this. Did not respond for 1.5 hours when I finally just sent back "Thank you". No idea what the Hll is going on - step forward/step back. If this is truly an MLC, this is the "rollercoaster" people speak of. I do know what is going on for me, and that starts in 1 minute w/ my GAL - lunch hour gym routine.
Ooh-oo child
Things are gonna get easier
Sounds to me like it represents hope she feels for your child. Not necessarily for you or your R. (Sorry).
Don't let it funk w/ your head. Repeat the well-worn mantra of this forum: "Ignore 100% of what she's saying."
... IC had not known my story until the few days before the 2nd BD, so I caught her up. I printed and let her read the very loving email my WW wrote me a few days before I dropped 2nd bomb. I printed the email I wrote WW dropping the 2nd bomb ...
CT1118 --
Sorry to get stuck on details but ... the above text you posted was confusing to me. Are there some typos in there?
Your W dropped the 2nd bomb, right? Not you?
The email you mention ... was in response to
your W dropping the bomb, right?
If you did drop bombs on your wife, what were they?
I click it and it is a song by The Five Stairsteps called O OH Child.
I was 16 when this song peaked at number 8 on the charts.
Basically a one hit wonder for this group.
Yes it brings back some high school memories for me!
CT1118 --
Sorry to get stuck on details but ... the above text you posted was confusing to me. Are there some typos in there?
Your W dropped the 2nd bomb, right? Not you?
The email you mention ... was in response to your W dropping the bomb, right?
If you did drop bombs on your wife, what were they?
ForGump - no, no typos, I try to keep it short sometimes, but may not always be best for communicating understanding. All below is scattered through my old threads, but happy to update in brief w/ a timeline:
1. 1st BD I consider when I told W (who became WW only hours later)that I knew about and had proof of her A and knew who OM was. This was end of Feb. 2016.
2. WW had told me she would end A to work on herself while we were S, told many lies to make me believe this. I tried to believe WW thinking I had to trust her at some point.
3. First weekend of July while on a family trip WW's behavior got very urgent and strange. Triggered my Spidey-sense in a way I had not felt since the month before 1BD. Tried to resist urges, but had not found this place yet and had no support network...ended up going onto OM's social media pages (WW had blocked me and has high security, but his dumb ass had not and has no security, and neither of them knew I have multiple social media logins for professional reasons - you block names, not people). I saw OM post some general thing and WW had commented that they would do dinner and her comment was about 10 minutes after I dropped her off that day. That night S4 and I were getting supper and I live close to WW, saw OM truck in her parking area.
4. Felt like I was in deja vu all over again. Found this place - immediately began seeking answers as to whether or not I should tell WW I knew she was lying. Had no education.
5. Spent time here and elsewhere educating/training myself. Seemed a better alternative than jail given how desperately I wanted to slowly break the bones inside OM's body.
6. Struggled for a couple weeks on what to do, ultimately began 180's read DR/DB book, posted & read here. Ultimately it was a response from Roist & Sandi which answered my question - generally, if I felt I had to tell WW about the lies and the A continuing, know if would be my choice for me and be prepared for consequences (they both encouraged the other direction with my choice, but made it clear it was a choice).
7. Meanwhile, I was seeing affect from my 180's. After a few days of 180, WW wrote me an email that was very loving, but no apology or acceptance of actions. Reading that combined with a comment WW made about my positive changes (why didn't you do this when we were together") flipped my switch.
8. This was 2nd BD - me telling her, yes again. Spent a few days thinking of how I would present. Wrote an email to say I was tired of lying, I know WW is lying, WW is free to make own choices, I will no longer be assisting beyond S4 matter, etc. It was much less curt than that. WW called literally right as I was going to hit send. I ended up explaining everything over the phone. The bombs were: me accepting what I had done in the M very briefly with a single apology to a 4 sentence paragraph, me stating that WW is free to figure life out on here own and I cannot stand the constant affection w/ no effort to move back towards an R, me stating I knew about ongoing A and could not be subjected to constant lies, me stating S4 is asking questions I cannot answer, me out.
9. Hours later, email comes in from WW accepting responsibility, explaining how WW does not know or understand what is happening to her, mentions other things, apologizes, loves me, does not deserve me, etc. (these are the three emails I refer to above)
10. I remain doing what I was doing before, but going more dim. And I felt a hell of a lot better.
11. 3 days later - late night phone call from WW crying, apologizing.
12. Here I am, journey continues.
Did that answer it? I hope its all true FWIW. I am very much still in the same state of mess that all here are, I am just a real obsessive person about the need for arming myself with information.
CT118 - I'm glad you directed me over to your thread. I'm impressed - you are even more of a planner / thinker / researcher than I am and you document it well. Like with any research it has to be taken in context but it made me feel good to read it.
Thanks my friend - I have never had another human being level me like my WW has. And despite the fking demons from Hell which rose up to try and take me, here I stand.
This reminds me of the night that WW said she was leaving and we actually talked more or less. One thing I said that appeared to have an impact on her and definitely is how I felt was me saying "I have stood in the FIRES for you. And they BURNED!
Yesterday part of my own obsessive research was to ask the internet (which rarely tells me the truth) about the OM perspective. The question I believe was "why will my girlfriend not leave her husband". A bunch of interesting reading popped out which largely agreed with your research that when a WW drags her feet leaving that the odds are large that she never will end up with OM. Mind you, the phrasing of my query biased the results but it made me feel good to stand in the fire for a while longer.
It also sounds like you are being very effective in your DBing - even though you are standing in the fire right next to the rest of us. There was a YouTube video that recently made the rounds on social media of a speech to a graduating class of US Marines. In it was the story of them standing in the mud and being yelled at but because they were in the mud "together" it was bearable. I'm glad to share my mud with you and all the others here even though I wish I was home and dry.
Thanks a lot - perhaps you can get a part-time gig with MWD later co-writing the "LBH for Dummies" or more accurately a "LBH Guide For Obsessive Men Who Do Too Much Research" book
Hahahahaahahaa! Thanks Andrew P. Seriously, I'm glad I have thread that people can joke on.
So as promised and then I'm out to walk my dog. Asked earlier:
"I almost wish that there was an "idiot's guide to WW" that would outline the steps that a WW goes through along with the steps that the LBH has (grief, denial etc) complete with a couple of 2X4s for him to whack himself with every time that he thinks "no - this is different". AndrewP from another thread
I'll give what I found. I think best to outline stages first, but feel certain these have already be written somewhere else in the MLC forum. Anyway - conglomeration of most common things I read, not my interpretaion, not from single source...and don't stop going elsewhere for your own information. PS, majority of my info based on men w/ MLC spouse, but its all kinda universal. Many different monikers for the stages, but again, I am using the ones that seemed to pop up the most.
Stages of MLC:
1. Denial: They deny many things like age, attractiveness, self value, the un/happiness at work, death of someone, their accomplishments, the value of their spouse/M, unresolved childhood issues, addiction, - list goes on. Basically what negative things do people not want to accept about themselves gets denied. One thing that does seem to be realized is one's own mortality and the fact that many years are behind them - then that gets denied via the need to move on/up/out/start exercising/buy unaffordable crap, - fill it in people, list went on.
2. Anger: Angry at what they have been handed in life. None of it is good enough. None of it to their expectations. They feel trapped, suffocated, can't breath, etc. Begin to think if they could run-away, escape, do something exciting and make changes they could be happy. Often feel need to be alone to do this. This is stage where A begins on some level. They look for outside sources to blame and self-justification for hurtful actions begins.
3. Replay: A's in full swing, MLC feels entitled regardless of who they hurt - it's "time for me" to have fun/be free/live life (basically fill in whatever self aggrandizing bullshit you want here and that's what the MLC is using for an explanation). They do not understand what is going on. May not be able to explain their own behavior. May not know why they are running or want to go, but it is what they feel so they act. Usually stage where A is discovered by or disclosed to spouse.
Replay can be a long stage and happen again, ex. WW/WH dumps 1st OM/OW and gets another. Or WW/WH sleep around w/ many partners. I read in a few places, replay can continue for years w/ some people. Hope not for anyone reading this.
4. Depression: Party time effects wearing down and reality glimpses. MLC realizes or starts to that they have not faced their real issues and they feel like failures. Guilt compounds, negative thought overtakes, self-esteem gets lower. Start to realize all of the people left burning in their wake.
5. Withdrawal: Coming face to face with issues. Will either seek help and seek to reconnect but could easily rebel and go back to replay or tell LBS to end marriage and reject any deserve of love. Called the covert stage as it could resemble earlier stages and/or MLC could go backwards and refuse to face issues. Where LBS will be challenged most, should stand and gently encourage.
6. Acceptance: Fully account for their actions, finally face fears, apologies happen, must accept what they did and what happened, will struggle with temptation to go back to other stages. Maybe family/friends/Spouse/Kids is still there, maybe not.
Ok, start with that. Seriously though, consider this a survey, dig into science or psych locations if you want deeper. I can do my best to explain if asked, I welcome additions/corrections. But please don't base your future off this alone I am no expert. Also, there is a TON of overlap items between an MLC and other reasons that may be real and ultimately why we may be here.
Remember Occam's Razor (or don't if this is your 1st hearing of it): when down to a few choices, the simplest answer is usually the most accurate answer. More assumptions make things more complex, make chances of that being correct more unlikely.
Remember Occam's Razor (or don't if this is your 1st hearing of it): when down to a few choices, the simplest answer is usually the most accurate answer. More assumptions make things more complex, make chances of that being correct more unlikely.
I've heard the phrase Occam's Razor but never really knew what it meant. People like me that tend to over-analyze things do often bypass the simplest answer which has caused me to be hit by more than one 2X4 here.
My mind-reading tells me that WW is in stage 4, others would tell me that she's in stage 3 and the reality is that I have no real answer.
I often wish that W was lurking here and reading all of this as well. At one point I actually told her about this site but she was in a deep fog at that point and it was probably all just "blah blah blah" to her. I made the mistake early on of bombarding her with research and things to read. Fortunately I realized within 12 hours that it was a truly stupid thing to do and stopped.
Thanks so much for posting this summary / guideline. We do all need to remember though that none of this is cast in stone and the script doesn't always get followed and we can't count on "anything". But still a scrap of hope that doesn't come from W is a scrap that I didn't have before. One of the greatest things about a community like this is knowing that you aren't alone standing in the mud.
OK, walked dog and went to grocery store. Not really great GAL, but I take what I can get. So next part of the question - what does WW go through, i.e. what does a WW experience during an MLC? Ok, again, some overlap w/ men in MLC, but I did to try very hard to get this information as specific to a woman in an MLC and there does not seem to be much in the world. For that matter, if you look up affairs, most of that stuff seems to be geared at men cheating. So fellas, we do own the mean statistical value on these.
OK, what should we understand about what a WW experiences during an MLC? (regardless of stages I'm thinking?) :
- MLC is engulfed in negativity, anger, confusion, and does not think clearly. They hear only blame for themselves and have only blame for others in return.
- MLC has a dependent personality. Will force LBS into a caregiver role and will become angrier at LBS at themselves and LBS as the LBS grows stronger.
- Not able in anyway to show emotional support for LBS or what they experience.
- Practice attention seeking behavior, possibly because as a child or in teens they receive no/limited attention from someone who needed to provide it; positive or negative attention toward the MLC will be received better than no attention.
- Very selfish and very self-centered about "finding themselves"
- Not able to trust people, including LBS or themselves. Looking for a partner who can reflect back heroism.
- Life is full of lies, deception, betrayal, and manipulation. Life becomes harder and harder to maintain w/ the superficial world MLC has created. They cannot handle the stress. They avoid taking responsibility until the point they are ready for repent & remorse.
- Very low self-esteem; it is much easier to lie to themselves and everyone they know than it is to confront their problems.
- Many have an EA which becomes a PA at some point. The A will distract them from life events such as: pain of childhood, abandonment or abuse, loss of close family or friends, aging, loss of looks, loss of health, job dissatisfaction, stress, parenting maters, finances (keep listing your own here). MLC will not realize how they are causing pain to themselves, others, or how they are over-complicating their life. They are self-absorbed and only care about obtaining their own happiness using only the methods they believe will deliver happiness.
- The OM will know nothing of the WW's flaws or personal history. The OM will be lied to about the truth of the WW's M and who the LBS was/is as a person. These lies will fit the WW's newly revised personal history. Thus, the A is nothing more than a fantasy for both WW and OM, built on falsities. The OM may also be a flawed person, but is often chosen b/c the WW is able to outshine them in looks, success, and power. The MLC WW wants someone they can control and/or take care of and OM will be along for the ride. OM is usually of weak character and integrity. MLC WW does not want someone who is superior to LBS, they want superiority over OM so the MLC ego will remain unchallenged and undamaged. It will most likely collapse as the WW MLC realizes their OM is not suited for long term companionship. At this point WW MLC will do one of three things: some will go home to M & family, some will become and stay miserable/depressed, and some will repeat the process thinking results will be different w/ next OM and/or partner.
- Over 50% of WW stated that their OM's were less attractive than their LBS, but 90% said motivation for A was driven by fact that OM listens to them and makes them feel more appreciated than their LBS. (I think this could cross into and/or away from the MLC condition. It does not seem homogeneous to just WW MLC's).
- WW MLC is a control freak. Often complain about loss of control or being controlled by LBS during the M. Yet, MLC feels no control over their own behavior while in an MLC. They determine that if they can control others and their environment they will be whole again. Thus will request a need for space, a space of their own, or a desire to be alone. How do they try to maintain or gain control? leaving home, ignoring family/friends/others, having an A, being mean, being nice, changing jobs, etc. It is only when the WW MLC realizes that they have no control over others behavior that a break through can occur. LBS should set boundaries in a "firm and loving way" to illustrate they cannot be controlled.
- MLC is a form of depression. Depression is anger turned inward and anger is a large part of an MLC's journey. Anger is a path of least resistance. Anger comes from pain and disappointment. The more an LBS can remember this, the more sympathetic they can become toward their WW with MLC.
- WW MLC is indifferent and only focuses upon self. They only want fun & freedom - the irony is that they become dependent upon two men - the OM & the LBS - which is not freedom. The WW in MLC will not notice the pain or the lies they deliver to both partners during their crisis.
- Have a low self worth. Focus only on external experiences to ignore internal problems. MLC is an existential crisis. It is all about the person in it.
- WW MLC is emotionally driven which leads to poor decision making.
- MLC is poor with money. Might use it to impress OM or to buy things/services to "feel" better. Spending is another form of distraction.
- Can be very abusive to LBS and will deny the truth of what they are doing to LBS. Will want them to "move on" only to alleviate their own guilt.
- M or FM MLC can experience sexual dysfunction during crisis alone or w/ OM/OW. Men will have erection or performance issues, women may have irregular menstrual cycles or symptoms of perimenopause.
- WW LBS will may become possessive and jealous is they suspect LBS has moved onto another woman.
- Self-pity can come from childhood issues. Shows up in idea that they do not deserve love and this is a symptom of past abuse. Expressed as "why don't you date others" why don't you move on" "why don't you hate me" etc.
- MLC will be very sensitive to criticism in all forms from all realms of life - boss/LBS/OM/friends/family. This attacks low self-esteem and MLC will attempt to distance from criticism.
- Can attempt to create conflict w/ LBS in an effort justify their own horrible behavior.
- WW MLC will try to manipulate LBS into seeing things as they do by trying to alter perceptions, patterns, and values.
- MLC will withdrawal or abandon which imitates behavior learned in childhood. It is easier to run from reality than to face challenge of accomplishing dreams.
- An MLC will go through changes that may or may not be distinct.
- Going through an MLC is equated psychologically to going through a second childhood.
- Statistically, most WW MLC's will find their way back to what they once felt was important in life.
- eighty percent of marriages survive an MLC. If the WW/WH is not in an MLC that may only be revealed in time.
- In an MLC, the LBS is only a contributor and is not the cause for the WW/WH which is a distinct difference for other reasons spouses abadon M's.
Alright, that took some effort for me to input. My planned GAL's were abolished tonight by some bad weather earlier and friend's schedules, so I didn't mind using this instead. I do hope it helps. I would suggest, the above are not necessarily facts as they are scientific and statistical observations. The human condition is a fascinating and strange experience.
- MLC has a dependent personality. Will force LBS into a caregiver role and will become angrier at LBS at themselves and LBS as the LBS grows stronger.
- Not able in anyway to show emotional support for LBS or what they experience.
Hell, read this twice, still left errors.
So to clarify top one - ...MLC will become angrier at the LBS and themselves as the LBS becomes stronger. IMHO, this relates to the control issues.
Bottom one - MLC is not able to show emotional support for the LBS or what the LBS is experiencing.
Ask if you find more, I will do my best
- Self-pity can come from childhood issues. Shows up in idea that they do not deserve love and this is a symptom of past abuse. Expressed as "why don't you date others" why don't you move on" "why don't you hate me" etc.
CT - I'm glad that you at least had some time away with your puppy from the intense focus that this forum can put on people like us. A lot of the song you were singing here I could come in with the harmony. I know that my W was sexually abused as a child even though we never discussed it. All of the "you deserve better" etc were phrases that I heard pre-BD.
Thank you yet again for your analysis and research. I've been noticing as well that you've been very supportive with a lot of detail on other people's threads but I also know that you are a relatively new member of our sad little community. I hope you can find some focus for yourself away from staring at the minutia and supporting others. We're here for you too buddy.
OK, I want to answer the full question tonight, at least as best as I can. Tired. Hmmm...I say tired like sleep is actually going to happen. Been 5 months, still wake up w/ bad dreams and only get about 5 hours. OK, I'm scaring the new DB'rs.
Last part of the initial question I do believe. Finsih quote of Andrewp - "the steps that the LBH has (grief, denial etc) complete with a couple of 2X4s for him to whack himself with every time that he thinks 'no - this is different'".
First off - great point w/ your jest AndrewP: and this is my take...nothing anyone here is going through is different. I have read that in a number of threads that state, I'm paraphrasing..."this is different..". Shocking evidence exists: MLC's are normal. D is normal. Having an A is normal. Falling out of love is normal. Realizing your spouse is not for you is normal. Whatever you got, it is most likely statistically normal. If your WW/WH became a serial killer, touche', you got me. Otherwise normal. What is beautiful about normal? Normal has company and normal has explanations.
What I found/notated for stages of the spouse of an MLC:
Disclaimer - To be honest, trying to find commonality in this area was very difficult. It was even more difficult to find information specific to men who are dealing with women in an MLC which specifically includes an A. So, that said, unlike things above this post, below is a mix of information influenced by my interpretation of what I read b/c I did not find some really good evidence which possessed uniformity. I have caveats above, but especially here.
1. Shock/Denial: I found these almost always as first and second in the data. Shock was always 1 and denial 2. I don't buy it. I had denial first in the fact that something felt "off", yet I still believed WW (W at time - sure business trip have fun baby!), but I promise all of you when I saw WW's texts and emails to OM following my continuous undeniable suspicion, there was only shock - denial was cleared up real quick based on what I saw. Not sure how shock could possibly come first. So, I combined the two for the first stage. If I may be so bold - you deny what you do not wish to believe, you are in shock when you see its true. Yes, initial shock may lead you to deny truth,etc - same thing, one category.
2. Anger/Grief/Pity: I think this one depends on who you are at your core. I found different answers. Some get angry immediately - marriage is over or f you, and some are just mad about the lies/neglect, etc, spouse out move on or S. Some beg and plead "baby don't leave me!", Some are in the "why me, I'm a good guy, I did the best I could". So I am not sure which is correct. For me, I showed anger, hell, I think anger ran my show for most of the time. - but I had grief alone and I never recall feeling pity. But, I found it listed as a stage in a few places so I listed here. Put them all together b/c I could not find a reasonable way to order as if they were germane to all people and especially not with a chronological order.
3. Bargaining/Depression/Insight: Again, found different names. All seem to have a place. Maybe you bargain with God/family/WW/WH - I will change, I promise, if you just I will...you get it, so some do that. Some check out - sadness, loss - who will love me? I don't want to die alone. I will never have a family, etc. Insight - this is my fault, what I did wrong was, i get it I was bad you are right to leave. Various combinations existed and I was not sure one more correct in the other. Seemed to me like these followed what I grouped in #2 rather naturally.
4. Acceptance/Vision: Again, this last part was mixed up. I used the words I found most, but I think better would be "Fight or Flight". So acceptance was you are done, s/he left move on. Vision was s/he may still want you - hang for a bit and see what goes on. To me, this would be the stage where you have gotten your whits back and you make a choice to either stand out and fight or you decide none of this stuff is worth it.
5. I think this is where you either work through it or you or don't work through it - be that recovery or reconciliation.
The majority of the medical explanations (which I thought lacked some of the humanity of the reasons I listed above) went like this. Also, they seemed to be black/white you either had one or the other or you transitioned in the same stage:
1. Trust vs. Doubt
2. Hope vs. Shame (embarrassment)
3. Empowerment vs.Guilt
4. Action vs. Inaction
5. New Self vs. Sick Self
6. Intimacy vs. Isolation
7. Purpose vs. Passivity
8. Integrity vs. Despair
So, I hope you see, this part was very muddy. I have read here where people think loosing a spouse equates to bereavement like a death or elsewhere when machismo rules the day and you just say "done" and that's it. I cannot agree with either extreme. Death is final, MLC. A's, and D's are not. Likewise, bravado is final in an egotistical way - if you are a person who believes in saving ego before all else, bravado/machismo will be the 2nd stage you hit and it will be final.
Again, and especially for this part. Dig deeper if you need to. Ask me about if you want. I am going to grab my 5 hours or whatever sleep is for me tonight. Will have a very rare cigarette treat first (I began indulging again after 6 years when S began - need to add into goals to stop, so bad). Hope all this is helpful at best, a time killer at worst.
PS did not add what is most assuredly last part to AndrewP's request - the 2x4's an LBS can "whack" themselves with. Sorry brother - have to be tomorrow. Mission assigned, will complete. Still in the fight, the fight for self. And me writing helps me more for me than it helps any of you who read what I write - believe that.
PS did not add what is most assuredly last part to AndrewP's request - the 2x4's an LBS can "whack" themselves with. Sorry brother - have to be tomorrow. Mission assigned, will complete. Still in the fight, the fight for self. And me writing helps me more for me than it helps any of you who read what I write - believe that.
I'm off to bed myself after far too long hovering over the forums. Good Night my Brother.
Last part of question: How should LBS handle WW MLC. Just as with the other stuff: mix of sources, just what I found on the subject when researching for my own understanding, could apply to a WH MLC as well - but I have been honest that I searched for everything coming from the position that I am LBS to WW MLC, and I would suggest the 180's and GAL are still your best defense/response. But this is all information to consider I guess. FWIW, I personally found the information below the most helpful of all the information I discovered in my research.
How to respond to a WW having an MLC:
- Recognize and accept: you cannot change her feelings, you cannot save her, you cannot control her, you only control yourself.
- This is not personal. Things like this simply happen. There was nothing LBS could have done to prevent MLC in their spouse.
- Acknowledge and accept your role in what made the M bad, improve those things, but this does not excuse the A.
- Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
- One decision at a time, one day at a time. Be deliberate about everything you do.
- Make requests in a thoughtful and loving way.
- Do not treat her like a normal woman. She is not a normal woman, she is in chaos. If your wife came from a troubled childhood it was not an "if" they have a midlife crisis question, it is a "when" question.
- Make goals/plans/and strategies for yourself.
- Give her space. Enjoy your space.
- She is angry at her childhood and how it has followed/affected her entire life.
- Everything you see, hear, and observe are symptoms - including the A - of her midlife crisis. Do not focus on the symptoms.
- Don't label the problem for your spouse, don't give hints that they have a problem, don't point out harmful behaviors, none of this will help. Your WW MLC is on their own journey and must decide what path they follow.
- A mid-life crisis takes time: good news is that at time of BD in the M, the MLC is usually half way over.
- Learn to forgive her. This is not for WW's sake, but for your own freedom.
- Let go of visions you have always had: let go of what you think marriage is supposed to look like, let go of what true love means, let go of how you think relationships should function.
- Take charge of your own health and happiness. This is a choice you can make which starts by changing your attitude.
- Improve your personal appearance: hair, clothes, shoes, hygiene, body definition. This is for you, but WW will notice.
- Do not allow yourself to be manipulated by WW MLC. Do not show her you're angry and hurt. Show confidence in who you are and your decisions. Do not lose your cool and protect your personal business. Your WW MLC will try to take advantage of you, above is a defense.
- Become what your WW MLC cannot have. Keep conversations light and short. You will appear mysterious and interesting over time as WW MLC notices. WW MLC will be frustrated, confused, and intrigued by this behavior.
- Stop being the boring man you were in the M. Find new hobbies. Feel free, independent, popular, likable, enjoyable, friendly, encouraging, and conversational with everyone else in your life.
- Do not challenge WW MLC on anything she says no matter how crazy unless it directly affects your dignity, crosses boundaries, or will be negative to your children. In those cases be direct, succinct, and firm.
- Get a grip on yourself. You have a whole lot to lose if you act out of desperation. (personal interjection here - this one could be read with implications that what you lose is your WW. While true, I also believe the statement refers to your own health/sanity/dignity/happiness. Something to think about)
- The WW MLC can come out of this a better person. You can too.
- Let your partner know subtly that they are beautiful, desirable, incredible.
- Prioritize your children, prioritize yourself.
- Become the greatest father you can become. This does not mean doing everything you child(ren) want to do. AN MLC can sometimes remove the motherly instinct from a woman, this is "how" they can appear to "abandon" the kids. You will need to become more attentive to children's needs, more in touch with their emotions, be more ready to make up for the loss of their mother's time, security, and attention.
- Stop energy draining activities like: TV, video games, porn, drugs/alcohol, constant checking phone/email for WW contact, and spying on WW.
- Do not forget nothing you did justifies her A. You did do things to make her weak and prone to it, but you did not cause it. One day when WW comes out of MLC she will accept responsibility for the A, whether you are still there or not.
- Never say "I don't care", "i no longer care", or anything like this. These statements do not protect your well-being. Do not say them for the fact that you DO care, you care about yourself.
- Do not leave your own house. Do not leave your bedroom. If WW MLC leaves the house, make that her choice. If she wants her own bedroom, put new locks on the door and give her all the keys so she knows that is her space only. This is no longer your W, this is a stranger sharing your home. Stay calm about this.
- Maintain and grow the positive changes you have made for yourself.
- This is YOUR choice. You are in control of you. If you choose to keep the marriage you will need patience, faith, detachment, a focus upon yourself, to know what you want from life, a support system, education from reading everything you can, prayer (if you pray), and boundaries to keep your self respect and your dignity.
- Be open to and excited for your own journey.
I want to be VERY VERY clear with this last post of this type for now. These are not the answers to everyone's specific problems. This is information. As MWD says in her DB/DR books, what works for some may not work for others. While I find a lot of value in the information I have shared over the past few posts, some of it does not apply to me, some of it I don't think is right for me, and some of it seems unrealistic to me. What I have hopefully achieved is to offer some options and further education for you at this time. I encourage, if not downright insist that you go beyond these posts, if you think items pertain to you, and do your own research. Otherwise, these are my notes, I admit I did not annotate their sources (other than bookmarks in a folder on my laptop), and you risk the filter of my own bias while I took the notes. I did my very best to present this information in a way that limited my own opinions or to be direct about them being my opinions where I did put them in. I hope they inform and help you in your journey.
My best to everyone.
CT
I love your last post. So many ways we can label our WW's. The message still stands that we focus on improving ourselves.
CT,
This was an EXCELLENT synopsis on the do's and don'ts of DBing. I suspect my WH is also going through a MLC and reminding myself to not take it personally has been my biggest challenge. I find when I step back from an emotionally charged situation and let a few days pass it helps immensely when addressing WH. This technique was a large part of my 180 as I would previously be pushy and demanding results and answers NOW!
- One decision at a time, one day at a time. Be deliberate about everything you do.
- If your wife came from a troubled childhood it was not an "if" they have a midlife crisis question, it is a "when" question.
- Let your partner know subtly that they are beautiful, desirable, incredible.
Being deliberate ... that's a great reminder for me. Gotta work on that. Also this: "Never pass up a chance to STFU."
Also good to hear about what troubled childhood did to your W.
The one about letting the partner know subtly ... that's a
really tough one. Not sure how to do it. Don't want to be perceiving as pursuing.
-
- Let your partner know subtly that they are beautiful, desirable, incredible.
The one about letting the partner know subtly ... that's a
really tough one. Not sure how to do it. Don't want to be perceiving as pursuing.
First off, very glad individuals here have found the information I share helpful.
ForGump - I agree that one is a challenge and as I said in my last post I am not sure how realistic all of these are. How does one remain dim, but also pull off support and making the other feel heard? How do you pull away with pursuance, but not so far that you are gone? I guess this depends on the individual sitch, how far out you both are, and what your objectives are. I believe the validation practices, e.g. Wonka's stuff, are the best approach for achieving while still 180.
An example of something I have done with that statement you quoted is to embed a comment about a small detail of her in the middle of validation.
Me responding to WW one day as she complained about her job/boss:
"Sorry you are feeling all of this stress at work. It sounds like a very challenging situation. Your skin looks good by the way so at least the stress has not affected your body. I hope you are able to figure this out and work through it."
I placed that in a very short conversation while dropping off S4. I listened to WW for the time I was there and that was all I said other than my nodding while she spoke, good-bye [I have to get going now, enjoy S4 tonight], and things I told my son before going. WW responded to the statement with body language - a smile and she touched her hair at the same time with a slow hand stroke after I said it. Both of those are common body language responses females give when they like the way/what a man has said to them. Also, I was not flirting, I did not smile when I said it, and I did as if it were an observation and nothing more. It was not me pursuing, it was me adding some mystery. My example sent two opposite messages to WW - "I don't need you" and "You are a person of qualities" These two things would not occur simultaneously in a normal R, but none of us are in a normal R. It is confusing, but helps with being the person your WW cannot have.
Not sure if that helps. Its what I did a few weeks ago and I would not be sure I would do that today and I if I do, it would be very few and far between. WW needs to continue w/ her journey and I w/ mine at this point. She seems to have shown small steps towards pursuing me and/or trying to pulse check. So I keep w/ everyone's advice here and will stick to my guns until change of a significant level is noticed.
WW came by early today to drop off S4. WW asked yesterday if an hour earlier would be ok as she has been having a tough time getting S4 to listen/behave. I agreed, but not b/c of her trouble. I agreed b/c I am taking S4 to beach today and WW is usually not good at getting S4 here early which can slow my roll w/the S4. So as soon S4 finishes cereal and Wild Kratts we are out, beach is only 15 minutes away anyhow.
An example of some of the above things I have posted about MLC or WW's...I got the total chaos kid this morning. WW was not mean or rude to me, but her attitude was so shtty it took everything I could to not kick her out. She was here less than ten minutes but I heard a nothing but complaining, stress, S4 won't listen, she can't sleep, tired all the time, friends calling late at night........blah. I recognized immediately and held to the 37 rules - Brief, polite, good attitude, look my best, cheerful, etc; through in a couple validations "past few days seems to have been a real challenge for you right now, but if I heard you correctly you are going to the gym to get some stress out. That sounds positive". S4 was in the bathroom pooping and WW wanted to wait for him to say goodbye.
In front of WW I stood at the door of S4 and said "You and daddy need to leave so please get this done son. Would like any help?". I wanted to indicate to WW I was ready to go. S4 said no, cleaned up, came out and said goodbye to WW who then left. Ugghh. I held the line, but the whole experience just reminded me - this is a long ride, the chaos kid will show back up even when you are thinking/hoping a corner has turned, and showed me how far I have come in improving my own attitude. I just don't want to hear all that negativity.
Cartoons done. Thanks for hearing me vent. Off to beach and play w/ my son in the waves.
Nice one CT. 'The Chaos Kid'. Is this your WW when she is a disorganised mess?
Great work CT you are a pro at this.
I am not looking forward to a similar interaction with W later this morning.
Enjoy the beach with your boy
- If your wife came from a troubled childhood it was not an "if" they have a midlife crisis question, it is a "when" question.
- She is angry at her childhood and how it has followed/affected her entire life.
Hmmm - definitely true for my W. I never put much weight on it's impact on her though. She has a lot of anger towards her father especially and feels that she was short-changed about a lot of things. Add on to that some suspected sexual abuse at the hands of an uncle that the family blatantly ignored and this may well have been a time-bomb that was going to blow no matter what.
I had always hoped that our own loving, stable home would be her anchor and safe harbour and allow her to get over it.
This is yet again a day that I really wish that W was here and could read this sort of stuff too. On the other hand she angrily denied that she was troubled and needed help at least when she was fully in the fog.
Nice one CT. 'The Chaos Kid'. Is this your WW when she is a disorganised mess?
Surfer - Yeah, wish I invented the term Chaos Kid but I found in a number of different psychology and counseling site, fits well though doesn't it. And yes, when WW is stressed for any reason it turns into either short temper, self-centered complaining, and long lists of "I need this/that I haven't gotten this/that I never this/that". It's chaotic and sounds just like a kid, so I really love the moniker.
albac - thanks, beach was great. S4 is not a great swimmer, but he has fun. Had to go when surf got a bit too rough for him.
AndrewP - my WW spent most of her pre to middle teen years in Canada. Do you think it's Canada's fault? Just joking - she actually did though and still loves the place (a small town in Ontario). Read more on how child abuse affects adult lives; so much out there.
Sitch update from this morning. Was driving myself & S4 to beach and WW called. I got an Apology. What I did not expect, it was not a self-centered one. WW said "I did not mean to come into your place and behave that way. You were obviously happy about the beach and being very nice and I was acting like an A-hole". WW said "Im really sorry" as her opener - I said thank you - then she had some contents like the above which I listened to w/out comment - then she said "I'm really sorry" again, to which I said "Thank you very much, we are almost at the beach and I need to focus on parking" WW seemed to want to talk more and I said talk to you later. In all fairness, she was actually very sincere about it.
I should note that yesterday, during most of the morning and into late afternoon I had this feeling of really not wanting to see my WW. I recognized that it made me uncomfortable and that I have felt it before. It made me uncomfortable because when I acknowledged it, it did not go away and if felt natural, like a new resting state. I am not sure if that's good or not. I mean its better than the out of character insecurity about myself which I felt for a couple months, but it sure didn't feel like hope either. Not sure how to interpret this one.
Anyway, S4 and I nailed beach parking - nothing between our 4x4 and the ocean but sand. Came home, ate lunch/rest time, now off to pool. I got a kids movie for tonight. Making this day our bitch.
CT - what a great day you have had. I bet you will be cuddling up with your boy watching that DVD grinning from ear to ear. So will he. I love that feeling.
The Chaos Kid thing is interesting, my W seems to go into meltdown too when stressed mainly. Also gets very disorganised and has chaos all around.
The apologies are good. My W would rather cut off her face with a blunt piece of ham than apolologise. I'd take apologies as good.
Good that she seems to be wanting to talk more. Remember those times when it was just bile and spew always.....something is going right in comparison I imagine particularly if she is lingering more and talking nicely - my W has been doing a little more of this too.
I sometimes don't want to hear from W. Normally if she has managed to 'needle' me or if I am just not up for any drama or victim storeys. It comes and goes I find. I wouldn't read too much into it - probably part of giving less of a sh!t - AKA detaching.
"My W would rather cut off her face with a blunt piece of ham than apolologise. I'd take apologies as good."
Surfer - I laughed way out loud. Pretty funny description. Also,
"I sometimes don't want to hear from W. Normally if she has managed to 'needle' me or if I am just not up for any drama or victim storeys. It comes and goes I find. I wouldn't read too much into it - probably part of giving less of a sh!t - AKA detaching."
Thanks, that was really supportive.
Hi CT118,
I was blown away by your post on how a LBS handle a S w/MLC. Many of points you make I can see that with my W. She came from a D from her family, they struggled financially and was bitter to her parents. She just turned 40 and now has this obsession w/her looks, she dresses more in the sense to accentuate her femininity (nothing risqué). I believe she is now drawn to attention as she grasping at turning this age. The only thing I may not agree in my own sitch, is that at BD her potential MLC is not half over, but rather just starting.
In my own sitch, I admittedly have made bad choices in how I treated her, but in certain ways I sense that she points at my past behavior to justify her future actions.
This is really good information, I am going to cut and paste to read over and over.
Thanks.
I want to tell everyone here about how I feel regarding one specifically similar comment I have read in numerous threads within the DB online Community.
So the comment I feel like I have seen many times here is that this is somehow a "sad" place. I don't feel that way and I haven't felt that way. When I first logged into this community, it took about 5 minutes of thread reading before I knew I had to sign up and start talking. Inside me, I felt like "finally, people who understand!" Yes, we all came here for personal reasons and some of us arrived here at different stages. By the time I got here, most of my sadness was behind me and I was dealing with anger and a whole lot of confusion. I got it mostly down to the confusion now and I can even begin to fell that getting weaker as my detachment grows (sure remnants of other emotions exist). But that's me. You have to know this is all about normal stages one goes through and those stages overlap.
What I see DB community as is a place of caring, a place of support, and a place of strength; hell even laughter at times if you read back through some of the posts on this thread - and if you get to laugh here, it was most certainly well earned. There is sadness here, but it is not a sad place. Faith is not a tangible thing, it must be believed to be real, and everyone here has faith that those they read about, those they talk to, and those they understand, will one day become stronger individuals. I cannot control how others choose to see it, but I hope by sharing a different viewpoint it can offer a spin on the notion that this place is sad. Now that said, I fully reserve the right to come here later tonight, tomorrow, or anytime in the future and tell you I have been crying all night with my head in my lap; know you will understand and know you will help keep me strong.
For me it's a paradox. I wish this place (this forum) did not exist. I wish it was not a part of my life. Yet given where my life is, I'm glad it's here.
I'm glad it is here as well because we all kind of know what we are all going through although I wish it were for happy reasons.
Heard and understood. Would suggest it is all about the attitude though. We will never be free of hurt, pain, and confusion in this world. These are components of the human condition. But we can live our lives choosing to embrace joy, effort, and the self. This is who we all are right now in our lives, this is part of our journey. I may not enjoy the reasons which ultimately brought me here, but I assure you, I have become stronger, better, and refined because of those reasons.
My first wife did not last long. She was a manipulative alcoholic who stole money from me and somehow hid a split personality for me. She was older than me and managed to dupe me into marrying her - young and stupid right. Anyway, what being married to such a complete failure of a human being did for me was to make me realize I had to focus on what I could control and what would be positive in my life. For me that was my career and my career took off. Having the issues I had at the time, I may have not been stimulated to take such aggressive actions had I not been living with such a person. I have always credited her with provoking that side of my personality. When I left her, she too went on to become a better person, getting through school (albeit on the money she stole from me) and becoming a nurse. I like to think that is helpful in some way to society at least. In desperation there can be courage, in a fight fear can be just as good as bravery.
You may not see it now, but I hope you will. Nobody is excited about the wool socks at Christmas until the snow falls.
Morning began by taking S4 to school. He's been having issues w/ fighting and selfishness; not sure that is far off from a 4 year old only child who parents aren't S. Did my best to ask him to be a good boy and tell him not to fight before I left.
Began driving to IC and WW called at 745 or so. I should have not answered, she had not made a very early call in a while, but I did. "How was S4 last night?". I realized immediately it was a pulse check and I had just backslid - one thing when I intentionally accept a call for an actual reason and I have a plan, but that was not there on this one; I just answered out of a habit I thought I was putting behind me. I did pretty good at getting of the line as quick as I could though. As long as I recognize my slip I suppose.
Good day at IC. I brought up the way I felt Saturday, about not wanting to see or hear from WW. I brought up what an a-hole WW acted like on Sunday and how I realized I did not have to hear that anymore. Told her about how I felt like I had hit a point where I have been living for me, improving me, and that felt pretty good. Told IC that it was strange to think about my WW and feel nothing or the opposite, to feel rejection of her in me. IC said this is what the detachment process does to some people and that feelings would come and go. It was not falling out of love, just a protection measure.
We spoke about a job offer I got, would take me out of state for 10K more money and with a much more reputable agency. Attractive. "I am not leaving my son and I am not going to pull him from his mother". I told her I trust my future self to know what to do in the future with such opportunities and that I currently trust my present self that I did the right thing with this one. Job was in the rust-belt anyway, and after 17 years on the southern coast, and despite where I grew up, I really hate the cold now.
Got to work a couple hours late as I always do on IC days, WW had blown up the email. Only replied to one which had S4's teacher linked. Ignored the others. Call came in at my lunch hour while I was at gym, rejected it. Text comes in about not answering emails. I hit my programed text reply everyone gets while I'm at gym..."I am in a meeting an cannot take your call. I will call you back as soon as I am able to." Did return call. Towards end of day WW calls again, I reject again, same message. One more time an hour later and this time I pick up. "Hey, how are you, did you see my emails?" ME - "I did see you emailed, but I am very busy". She asked me something about the way earlier teacher/school email - to be fair it was a legit question, but not that urgent. I answered it. There was nothing to validate in what she was saying, so I just stuck w/ rules 15-19. Got the "are you ok?" -yes, I am, I am great - "are you sure? - yes, great day, lots of work, been busy, need to get back to it, have a great day. Still feels strange right, doing that? Especially after I picked up a call this morning like it was habit. IC said, feelings come and go.
Put S4 to bed 2 hours ago. While sitting him on the sink and coaching him through how to brush his own teeth, he told me he loved me, but he just liked mommy better. I asked him "is that because when you are with daddy, there are rules to follow?" He just nodded. Put him to bed and I told him it was ok for him to like his mommy better, that he should not feel bad about that. Then I told him "I really love you son and I always look forward to my time with you. I hope you have a good time with mommy the next few days and I will think of you." He hugged me, kiss on the lips and gave an "I love you too daddy". I don;t feel any less because he is 4 and wants his mama.
Concludes my day in DB town. Will read a few more things here and check out.
Graduate school fall semester starts again in two weeks. Will consume a whole lot of my time. Sounds good. One year left till degree.
I admire your DBing skills CT.
In my head I like to think I can do the same but normally when the occasion arises I go weak. It will take one and I am getting better so that will have to do for now.
It sounds like you and your S have a great bond and spending time with him keeps you strong. Keep fighting she isn't contacting you for no reason she is getting scared YOU are slipping away from her.
Keep it up
I admire your DBing skills CT.
In my head I like to think I can do the same but normally when the occasion arises I go weak. It will take one and I am getting better so that will have to do for now.
It sounds like you and your S have a great bond and spending time with him keeps you strong. Keep fighting she isn't contacting you for no reason she is getting scared YOU are slipping away from her.
Keep it up
Thanks man. I really need to her that. I really do feel strong inside me towards WW and how I work it. She is still in the A though, so I ain't that good.
Actually, me writing that last sentence instantaneously stirred up some serious fking anger in me, so I will just log out and go to bed now. Instant. Have not felt this in a while.
Thanks albac, I mean it - much appreciated support man.
CT1118, I know things are hard for you and you're still struggling at times, but you're a beacon to many of us in this forum. In my book, the real zen masters are not the ones perched on top of the mountain but those that are continually climbing, slipping, falling, yet climbing again.
Your W sounds really confused, and I bet she won't admit it or even realize it but she sees that you are a lighthouse while she floats in dark waters.
I hope you keep posting where you're at.
You said this over in Natus's thread, but I'm replying here so as to not hijack Natus's thread.
So what I meant was that my actions w/ my WW today are my choice - not hers. Right now I choose to attempt DB process w/ WW b/c I believe what her and I could have in the future is worth it. I also understand that this choice I am making is allowing me time to improve myself in ways I never realized I would get to, but always wanted to. Ways that got me off chemical abuse, ways that helped me address a learning disability I never knew I had, ways that are helping me mature as a man and as a father.
When I first got here I asked cadet directly if at 8 months since the A began and 6 months since S, was I too late in coming here to be helped. Cadet responded, "I think it is too late when they put you in a box and pile dirt on you. Until then you have a chance." Those are profound words and I believe them. But they are not to be mistaken - its all our choice to live in every moment and learn.
I have moments where I lose the feelings/considerations for my WW, but I am aware that pieces of me will always be in love with the girl I knew as a teenager, the young woman I dated and lost in her 20's, the woman in her 30's whom I married and had a beautiful son with. Hell man, even the woman in her 40's who flipped sht and left me. If I feel a switch inside me that says I need affection and to be loved, even if that means the arms of another woman, I will make that a conscious choice and I will know when it happens inside me, but rest assured I will make that for me and not b/c I for lack for feeling or consideration about my WW; I'm not sure that I will ever be w/out those two things. My choice will be because I found myself, I am healthy, I know what I want in life, and my decisions came from there, inside me and not because I was distracted, because I was awake. If that is what I choose that is; it is only but one possible future.
This gives me a lot of fodder to think about. I like and respect the idea of being in tune with your feelings about WW and making a conscious choice to see other women.
CT1118, I know things are hard for you and you're still struggling at times, but you're a beacon to many of us in this forum. In my book, the real zen masters are not the ones perched on top of the mountain but those that are continually climbing, slipping, falling, yet climbing again.
Your W sounds really confused, and I bet she won't admit it or even realize it but she sees that you are a lighthouse while she floats in dark waters.
I hope you keep posting where you're at.
Thanks ForGump. I really needed to hear that. The only thing I got so far is that WW sent me an email 4 hours ago having to do w/S4's school; I have not replied, but this time its not b/c I am DB'ing, I just don't give a sht right now.
Feeling pretty baseline at the moment, not up and happy, but not sad or upset. Just running through the work day.
CT
I have little to add that other than the "Soap Opera Continues" (we all have this, just depends which episode is on). All seems okay for you really. Your episode is clearly about "He's hardened and she's now not so confident she's got it right" - a cleverly titled episode, "I Will Make Him Chase Me". Guess you are doing something right as she feels she needs to do something to get a reaction - looks like big time temp checking. Particularly the school emails.
Why did you think you made a mistake when she called you the other day. Was it because you didn't exit the conversation quickly or because you didn't pick up?
Final point - and the most important. Don't worry what your son says about liking mummy more. Everyone is a mummy's boy at 4. He will change between 6 and 8. My S is starting to. Play football with him, do Dad stuff, swimming, built and make things, have play fights, make swords and do battle etc.
My W tells me off "it's okay for you trying to be Mr Fun, they need a normal life". I think they are really saying, Dad at least you do something fun, rather than FB chat, talking, texting, playing games on your iPad......
Keep doing what you are doing. You are reading like a success story to me, one way or the other chap!!! Happy Dad Happy Son, soon you will be all "Wars Fought, Tigers Tamed" no doubt. Ha ha. Take care.
Surfer - Thanks mate.
"Why did you think you made a mistake when she called you the other day. Was it because you didn't exit the conversation quickly or because you didn't pick up?" Answer: I did pick up and I didn't have it in me to speak with her at the time. Not a huge mistake, but I should not speak with her if I don't feel up to it.
I'm not worried about son wanting mommy more. I have structure, and what 4 year old wants that. "Play football with him..." I am first generation American, my mother is from Germany. Your slang makes me think you are not American, so I hope you saying football is meaning soccer to me. And yeah, have been since he was old enough to try and walk. Fussball was my mother's religion and she preached it too me all my life.
"Keep doing what you are doing. You are reading like a success story to me, one way or the other chap!!!" I hope you are correct sir, update on next post.
I finally did answer WW's school post. It was about a date of availability for a parent meeting. I just responded with my availability. WW called 15 minutes later, my cell was on my desk and I was out of office.
I got dressed for gym and ran from office to gym. Phone beeps indicating email, I am in a position of response for work, so I check. It was WW asking me to call her. I did and she answers. Hey, what's up?" WW "nothing, just wanted to see how you were doing"
Held my line, "I'm doing great, been very busy at work due to the increased work load. Not a bad thing, just been very busy"
Then WW goes into it - "I just feel like things have been very business like between us lately. I know we are in an awkward situation, but I want to know you are ok"
Me: "Yeah, well, like I said, very busy, but I feel really good about myself. Hope you are well yourself"
WW: "I'm not sure, like I said, this is awkward, and I just don't see why we can't...[at this moment I thought if she ends her statement with "be friends" I am going to flip the fk out, she didn't, it was just a pause]...I just don't want us to become strangers to each other. I think maybe now is not the time. Maybe we can make sometime time to talk when we are together?"
Me: "Yeah, I think that sounds right."
WW:"Ok, well, I hope you have a good rest of the day."
Me: "You too, bye".
So, that was it. What do you all think? And let me add, I have mentioned before how I have to go by WW's house to get S4 to school (yes I have to, its on a road to nowhere) and OM's truck was in her driveway this morning. Today, I feel like complete apathy. I am not to sure what to say to WW other than repeating the things I said three weeks ago "don't want to be your buddy, know you are w/OM and that means you don't get me as your H, you wanted space and so do I" etc...
The apathy is confusing me (big surprised right? an LBS is confused). I mean, I feel sometimes about as turned down and disconnected as I can be without choosing to let the last bits of usable feeling float downstream. But apathy is also mixing me up on when to turn up the personality a little bit. When I first started dimming the lights and behaving like I am now, I felt like I was faking my shortness and brief comments to act like I didn't want to speak with her. Confusion is now I don't feel like I am faking it, my behavior is real.
I just wanted to pop in here and let you know you really inspire me with this DBing stuff. As someone who just started this journey I find reading your posts quite helpful when I'm feeling like I've handled a certain situation poorly. And I think someone else said it does sound like one way or another you're on the right path.
"I just don't see why we can't... I just don't want us to become strangers to each other."
Been wondering about this myself. I will definitely be a co-parent w/ my STBX. But how much of a friend can I be? I don't think she has much expectation to be a friend. But if it should come up ... my feeling right now is we won't be anything more than co-parents. And that means we
will be strangers in every way except in parenting.
p.s. CT1118 -- could you check out LonelyW's latest post about going on a date? Would like to hear your reaction/thoughts.
My W hasn't had that moment yet. The last thing either of us has said in any relation to "us" is her saying "I think I'm just going to take a break from men for a while" on my birthday a month ago in the middle of an argument. Kinda pissed me off, but I'm over that.
I hit apathy sometimes too. I sense it might be a "friends" talk and she was scared your answer would be F no again. The "business like" comment reminds me of a text conversation W and I had a couple days ago, where she said I was difficult to deal with.
I think I'm in a similar spot mentally. Faked things for a while, but now I'm feeling less and less....
Listen guys, almost all WW's want their H to be their gay friend. You have a choice of filling the same position that anyone else in the universe can fill.......and be just her friend. Or, you can fill the position that is uniquely designed for only one person......and be her H. However, as long as she's wayward, being her friend doesn't work. Notice that I said if she's a WAYWARD wife.
One reason it doesn't work is b/c your definition and her definition of "friends" is totally different. You would see it from the standpoint of eventually winning her back into the MR. However, she would use you for everything she could find......I'm talking about abusing the so called friendship. And the first time you felt tired of being taken advantage of and tried to back away from whatever she's wanting (babysitting, a shoulder to cry on about hard her life is, hang out if nothing else better, a Mr. Fix-it for free, or a zillion other ways she'll take advantage)......and she'll throw it back in your face so quick you'll get seasick, "I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO BE FRIENDS!" Oh, she'll make you pay.
What she really wants is for you to be sitting on ready every time her little head thinks of something you can do for her. That is the WW's definition of YOU being her friend. Oh, and it never works the other way around.
You can act friend-"ly", like you would be toward a nosey neighbor you don't particularly like. You know the type. When you see them outside, you just wave, smile, and keep on walking.
So when can a man be his WW's friend? When she repents, respects him, and they are reconciling. Think of the three R's. Repent, Respect, Reconcile.
CT/FG/RSG. All in similar boats.
I do wonder, why is this up for debate? You (we all) will either be closer to or further apart from your spouses in due course (you might dance back and forth - you have before so why not again?). Fact is, you are going to be on a journey with your W until they put dirt on that box (as per Cadets(?) comment) like it or not. Hows that for a cheery thought! Get me the noose, the stool and the goosefat!
I am taking one thing from this. Giving less of a sh!t is working for you CT. For defo. But she it temp. checking you big time. Keep the temp. cool. Not cold, cool. You are doing an amazing job. It's not just about how you are doing though - it's about how she is doing. She is taking the bait. Me, FG, RSG all have a different sitch. and part is driven by the W responding differently and our acting differently. For example, I feel my wife is DBing me with no contact etc at present. Might never change -in fact if it doesn't change forget the noose....
This is perhaps the quote that did it "you don't get me as your H, you wanted space and so do I".
Been thinking, perhaps the way to deal with it is to truly accept, and not want a life without the W? Not sure how much pushing for it is a good idea but.....perhaps that is it. I mean if you were really out there picking the ideal mate, given the history - really? This particular brand. If you were advising your child who was picking their spouse (not meaning to be rude about anyones W BTW) - I mean really. So yes being very cool right now seems perfect.
It all looks so clear in your Stiches as I read them. Yet mine confuses me. My DB Coach says do the nice things (i.e. should I pick them up from the airport etc - sounds like eating the entire cake shop not just a slice to me), yet on here I see a more distant approach. There's a fine line between lovingly detaching and being cold.
I might just go "in Character" so I 'know' how to act - I am thinking Arthur Fonzarelli!
Sandi,
No punches pulled. Perfect.
My nosey neighbour knows I think (he/she) is a total prat. They know that because I really struggle to hide my emotions - rubbish at Poker. How does that work, it sounds like CT is doing a great job of being himself and coming across as happy - without looking like he is thinking "get off my doorstep [neighbour] you don't belong here and you are trouble!".
Also, I gather from DB Coach that its all about lovingly detaching, yet still doing the things they appreciate etc. You seem to differ a bit on this. Can you clarify please - as my DB coach keeps telling me not to try mind read and predict what she is thinking? At present my WW has is definitely very dark on me.
Confused on these two points.
Thank you.
I just wanted to pop in here and let you know you really inspire me with this DBing stuff. As someone who just started this journey I find reading your posts quite helpful when I'm feeling like I've handled a certain situation poorly. And I think someone else said it does sound like one way or another you're on the right path.
Thanks maybs - I really appreciate that. Chime in anytime.
But how much of a friend can I be?
ForGump - I am fairly certain I stole my answer to that question from someone's thread (I think RSG's). If she wanted to be my friend at a later date it would be a friendship that needs to be built. So for me, building myself right now. You like Pearl Jam too - "I'm a lucky man To count on both hands The ones I love" I have enough friends right now.
RSG - tried to QQ you and it was only pasting script language, so the old fashioned way:
"The last thing either of us has said in any relation to "us" is her saying "I think I'm just going to take a break from men for a while" on my birthday a month ago in the middle of an argument. Kinda pissed me off, but I'm over that."
I heard that EXACT SAME STATEMENT on father's day. Pissed me off at the time, over that too, actually forgot about until I read your post. About 50% certain at this point you and I might be married to the same woman who is leading a double life.
Listen guys, almost all WW's want their H to be their gay friend.
You can act friend-"ly", like you would be toward a nosey neighbor you don't particularly like. You know the type. When you see them outside, you just wave, smile, and keep on walking.
Sandi - sublimely put as always and thank you. I admit to flawed behavior before I got here, but I was also lied to and made to believe we could work things out: WW told me we could work on things yet she was happy to not be with men for the time being, WW sent me semi-nude texts of herself and quite a few of them, WW came over a number of times and cleaned my apartment, WW would cook and deliver me food. My response was not as gay friendship, it was as a dude being lied to and acting accordingly - normally a woman sending me almost naked pictures and cooking me food has been a very positive sign in my life. I fell for it. Did not know what I did not know. Got here after finding out I was being lied to, read your stuff, felt your hammer. Did a great many of the things you said to do,certainly have adopted your viewpoints as well as prophesied them among the tribe even if I don't use them all very well. I credit your work w/ highest regard and appreciate you speaking up.
I see WW more as the annoying co-worker than the nosey neighbor. I can ignore my neighbors, I have to do business w/ my co-workers, but point received.
This is perhaps the quote that did it "you don't get me as your H, you wanted space and so do I".
Been thinking, perhaps the way to deal with it is to truly accept, and not want a life without the W? Not sure how much pushing for it is a good idea but.....perhaps that is it.
Thanks Surfer - WW already rolled the dice choosing to risk a life w/out me on her end. I do not see the DB/180/LRT as much risk for me, given the situation. I see it as my choice to use this tactic(s) until I choose otherwise. That does not mean hope will ever go away until the dirt is tossed on my box, but I do realize apathy is a shovel to bury myself with; apathy is a risk. I never saw this coming, although looking back at some of my old posts I can read where I started to feel it. Hoping I can choose to come out of it, because I have never felt so little about her in all my years of knowing her, i.e. why I am confused.
If you go read my thread, just had a big moment.
Yeah, I did say that about a friendship. Destroying my and my son's family, cheating on us and showing no remorse, abandoning your child for 6mos, all the rationalizations....it'll take a while for me to want to be around you and be interested if a D is final. Not to mention the idea of you actively "out there."
"I'm taking a break from men" is such a ridiculous statement. Ugh! These broads just need to be shaken until their brains get back to normal lol.
I can see the gay friend crap sometimes, but I answer it with indifference and that I'm doing fine without you. I will NOT be your buddy while you put yourself out there. You can go to HE77 with that stuff! HA. I'm demanding more respect everyday. I was a doormat for too damn long and am finding myself again. I'm a strong, good, honorable man and will not let anyone in my life who treats me like dirt.
Sandi is gold. I read some of her stuff again last night and today. It really helps me when I'm struggling to keep on, and feel like I'm being a jerk. I haven't shown anger in a LONG time. Instead, I've been polite and that's about it.....because that's all the situation calls for at this time.
RSG, just read your three things on your thread. You sir have pulled me out of a head strong jam more times than you will ever know.
Feeling more detached today than the indifference which sat on me for four days. Got back thinking about how dangerous apathy is. There is no love in apathy. True I was not feeling it, but I know its in me, even if a bit blurry right now.
Had to re-think. A WW moves back and forth due to the intense sense of guilt swinging into self-justification. It has nothing to do with me and everything to do with WW. WW has said she still loves me more times than I can count, but just as Sandi points out that a WW's idea of friends is different, so is their idea of love - because a WW does not know how to love. My W knew how, but my W is gone right now. Everything my WW does right now is about her anger over her past and how she has carried an anger so long and so deep into her life.
The hard part has been identifying what is in me, which made me what to reach out, to respond, to hold onto. To begin to repair those things and trigger new growth of the self within. I can do nothing for my WW... I can only do for myself. This journey for me is about wellness and healing. It is easy to be LBS and believe that the WW is the one with all of the healing to do in order to be right again. True, the WW has a lot of healing to do. But I have had to go through plenty myself.
A year and a half ago I tore three of my ribs out of the cartilage on my back. I have never felt pain so horrible in all of my life and my tolerance is pretty high for pain. I screamed uncontrollably for almost 30 minutes - was not a choice. When I was finally able to get to a doctor, he said the intense pain would subside in a week or two, the occasional pain would last for a month, and that the overall injury would be about six months to heal, even then re-injury was possible in life. Then he said something I will never forget. "Be careful, you will feel better before you are better".
I think that's the world I am in now.
I do wonder, why is this up for debate?
The DB coaches encourage being their friend. As I have said before, they don't separate those who are wayward. I won't say that I was the first one on the board to say not to be friends with the wayward wife, b/c I don't actually know for a fact. I don't remember seeing anything opposing the idea of being buddies, unless it was Puppy (I can't remember). He had well knowledge of the WW mindset and what she is capable of doing. Anyway, there were very few back then that even used the term "wayward". I resented that word, terribly, b/c it stomped on my WW feelings too much. But I got over it.
I see H's who get the no-buddy system down pat, but then when he reconciles....or is in the process of working on the reconciliation, he doesn't seem to realize that that is when he can begin building the friendship with her. You see, I am
not against H's & W's being best friends. I am against a H trying to be her BFF when she is
wayward. He cannot nice her back from waywardness. She disrespects him!
I don't understand why men don't see that you can't be friends with people that resent and disrespect you! You have to have the WW's respect before you can be her friend.....or she will eat you alive.
You (we all) will either be closer to or further apart from your spouses in due course (you might dance back and forth - you have before so why not again?).
This is why timing is so important. The H has to use tough love with a WW. He cannot be some soft marshmallow who doesn't have the guts to stand up for himself. He has to take charge of his life and stop acting as if he is her employee. He has to be a leader over his own family and home. If she has been something resembling Hitler, then she isn't going to meekly hand over her power. She will give him trouble every way she can. He has to stand firm and not back down to fear, her bullying, her anger, or whatever. He has to firmly establish his role in the family, the home, and his M. He cannot afford to compromise his standards and beliefs just to keep her from divorcing him. She can respect it or she can leave. And he must not be
afraid of her leaving. At least, don't show her he's afraid of her leaving him!
Now maybe to you that is a picture of getting further apart from your spouse, but to me it is what needs to take place IN ORDER to get closer. Don't you see? She has to learn to
respect you, first, before you can get closer. You cannot get around it. Women are wired to where they have to feel respect for their H before they can desire him as a lover. Now, you tell me......is that so complicated? Just b/c that's not the way guys are.....you should still be able to understand the formula for her.
I am taking one thing from this. Giving less of a sh!t is working for you CT.
Sure, it works! B/c it helps the H to detach and let go. So what if she gets mad and throws a fit? Who cares? She uses her anger to control! Women who throw fits and bully, do it to control. If you guys have not learned that by now, please jot it down. When she sees she cannot bully her H to get her way, then she'll try a different way to get it. (But that's another lesson).
FG, RSG all have a different sitch. and part is driven by the W responding differently and our acting differently. For example, I feel my wife is DBing me with no contact etc at present.
All W's may not respond exactly alike, but if they are wayward, their goal is the same. Want to know what it is? To be free of everything she deems made her unhappy, and to go out there and find the life/man that fulfills her needs. Her selfishness will override any nice-guy attempts to convince her to give the M another chance. Selfish desires trump everyone and everything. So, however she may respond to him, he'd better be tough enough to handle her.
Been thinking, perhaps the way to deal with it is to truly accept, and not want a life without the W? Not sure how much pushing for it is a good idea but.....perhaps that is it. I mean if you were really out there picking the ideal mate, given the history - really? This particular brand. If you were advising your child who was picking their spouse (not meaning to be rude about anyones W BTW) - I mean really. So yes being very cool right now seems perfect.
You make a good point. It is so sad to see how most H's will spend all their emotional and physical strength trying to make things work with his WW, and when he is completely exhausted and cannot mentally get through another day of the b.s.........he finally gives up and lets it go. Then, he does what he should have done in the first place.....but he wouldn't follow our advice and he went with his emotions. Now, she starts seeing him with different eyes b/c he doesn't want her any longer. Talk about a couple whose timing is out of sync!
It all looks so clear in your Stiches as I read them. Yet mine confuses me. My DB Coach says do the nice things (i.e. should I pick them up from the airport etc - sounds like eating the entire cake shop not just a slice to me), yet on here I see a more distant approach. There's a fine line between lovingly detaching and being cold.
And this makes me want to pull my hair out. (Again, to my knowledge, the coaches do not separate the wayward wives from the others). And why do you see a thin line between lovingly detaching and being cold? Have you ever had any experience with discipling children? Maybe not. If you have, then you can understand (especially with teenagers) how you must be firm with boundaries, house rules, respect, and dealing with them as they rebel against everything you stand for. It calls for tough love, but the parent doesn't have to give them a cold shoulder and not talk to them. You have to communicate very plainly what will not be tolerated. And if they choose to do anyway, you enforce a consequence for their action/behavior. You do it b/c you love them more than life itself. But you have to be the one in charge. To me, that is similar to the H and his WW. It may hurt like heck to stand up to her and not give in to whatever.....but b/c you love her, you can do it as long as she is acting like a rebellious teenager. This, to me, is lovingly detaching. You have to detach from what your emotions may want.....in order to be the
lighthouse that guides her back.
Also, I gather from DB Coach that its all about lovingly detaching, yet still doing the things they appreciate etc. You seem to differ a bit on this. Can you clarify please - as my DB coach keeps telling me not to try mind read and predict what she is thinking? At present my WW has is definitely very dark on me.
Have I explained where you understand why the coaches give you different advice from what I say? I respectfully disagree in their advice, if it's a wayward wife. I do not agree with grouping waywards together with some poor woman who left the M b/c the H was beating her and the kids. Makes no sense at all, to me. If he was an abuser (for example), then I would definitely agree that he needs to get therapy and fix himself, then he should try to build a friendship and do nice things for her. That just makes good sense. The heavy lifting is on his end. But if the W is wayward and showing all this hateful disrespect and rebelling against everything in the MR........
then the heavy lifting is on her end. However, it won't come about until she comes out of that WW mindset.
I am taking one thing from this. Giving less of a sh!t is working for you CT.
Sure, it works! B/c it helps the H to detach and let go. So what if she gets mad and throws a fit? Who cares? She uses her anger to control! Women who throw fits and bully, do it to control. If you guys have not learned that by now, please jot it down. When she sees she cannot bully her H to get her way, then she'll try a different way to get it. (But that's another lesson).
It surely does help me detach, and nothing could feel more unnatural, but I am doing it anyway. And my WW only briefly tried to use bully tactics. But WW's will try a different way as you state - they try no contact of their own, but what my WW mostly used was affection. I think the bullying would have made me wake up a whole lot faster when I was believing the lies before I got here.
All W's may not respond exactly alike, but if they are wayward, their goal is the same. Want to know what it is? To be free of everything she deems made her unhappy, and to go out there and find the life/man that fulfills her needs. Her selfishness will override any nice-guy attempts to convince her to give the M another chance. Selfish desires trump everyone and everything. So, however she may respond to him, he'd better be tough enough to handle her.
That's right, its about what the man needs to earn, not what he deserves. A WW will never give self-respect unless the man gives it to himself first. I am an LBS any longer, I am my own independent man. Would very much like to be W's H again, but both those people are on ice right now, time will tell if they thaw.
Sandi, I am handing you a trophy right now. Not b/c I agree or disagree, but for your efforts to facilitate understanding.
Hmmmmm...NC of any kind today. This may be the longest I have not spoken w/ this woman in 6 years. I am surprised she has not attempted anything yet. Not mind reading but do have to wonder if she is thinking I am bluffing or if she gets it. Doesn't make a bit of difference though, I am feeling fine.
This is pure gold!!
I'm starting to gain back the respect. I was a doormat for around 5-6mos out of fear, but have stopped allowing disrespectful things to be said to me. Also, I think I've taken it a step further by calling out stuff that would have been ok while married but cross the line right now.
Dealing with the She Hitler (LOL!!!) was difficult, but her angry controlling ways are coming down and my head of household ways are increasing. Not back where they were, but closer everyday. I don't understand the way she thinks, but from my reading here I'm starting to learn. And I see what works. CBT and Cnut have been so right. She's starting to be nice, so I need to double down!!
My wife is a strong woman. She's 5'10 and likes to lift weights. I'm 5'7 and thin. She bullied me during her worst times as she has a VERY salty mouth, and it was very hurtful. She will try to bully more before she ever breaks down, but I have no intention of doing anything other than standing up to her.
She def thinks that leaving the M and family is what will make her happy. She had a little breakdown around July 4th, and I'm starting to think this had to do with the A dying. She was crying daily, depressed, talked about how much she had been drinking, etc etc. 5 days later on my birthday she said "I'm going to take a break from men for a while." And she has shown with actions that I am no longer being compared to someone who was butt kissing 24/7, someone who she could look good next to (ie much more accomplished) and easy to control.
I'm so glad to have you here!! I'm finally learning what tough love is, and the board is REALLY helping me implement! Not perfect daily, but no matter how small the step forward is, it's still forward.
Again, thanks Sandi!
Well, I'm about to hit bed and today was in fact a full NC day. Will think about tomorrow when it gets here. Strange feeling, but I do hear Sandi yelling the WW has to feel as if she is losing something important, otherwise you are hand feeding her cake. I didn't do any GAL tonight really except read here, but I did earlier today.
I wanted to offer my GAL activities here. I read a few posts today/tonight where people said they fell off or slipped out. You need to remember - Get a Life. The GAL is for you to do activities on your own or with friends/family. Not just to take your mind off things, but to reinvent, refocus, and know what you want from life.
My daily stuff M-F:
1. Gym (core exercise, pull-up, pushup, running) you can make the time, trust me.
2. Try to dress like I am in charge of everything, but dress appropriately. Clean shave (a real tough one at first, hate shaving). Clean appearance.
3. Actually do my job, at one point I had to GAL from my GAl, which was spending way too much time here while at work.
4. If I have my son, we do the pool, watch some cartoons, and I always eat dinner with him - didn't used to, would waste time on the net while he ate.
5. Graduate school starts up again in two weeks. I do not recommend this GAL. Being in grad school at my age w/ a young child, and a full time leadership job has been a torturous experience and one that led me to ignore my M when I was in it. But, my own man now, got my own place, and a new attitude. Two semesters left and I am done.
6. If I have to shop or run errands I do it during the week - I do not want my weekends wasted on shopping
7. I ride my skateboard and listen to music at the ocean. Not if I have S4 though. Its a great way relax from the day.
Weekends:
1. Friday night I try my best to meet friends and possibly new people. I began hanging out with co-workers which I had never done. When the S started I realized all my old friends were too nosey, too opinionated, and I did not want to hear it. I made new friends. It's cool being around people who do not know my story and I do not have to share, so I don't.
2. Saturday I still exercise, but its really fun things - hiking, tree climbing (the real thing, I was a tree climber for 10 years - yes, ropes/chainsaws/potential for death, all of that), walking through the city.
3. Sunday is my all day w/ S4 - parks, beach, pool. Sometimes Chucky Cheese, its a noisy disease pool but he loves it.
I also play music and I challenged myself to a new hobby. I landed at a rock wall gym. Never saw it coming, but came across a flyer one day and thought why not.
It really does not matter what you do as long as you stick with it. If you want changes to be noticed, not just by WW but by you, then you have to stick with something. You have to make it a habit. So what are you going to tomorrow that will change your life for the better?
Woke up today and the absent feeling was back. Loving detachment feels different. My gambit of emotions seems to be rotating for the past 1 or 2 weeks between: apathy, loving detachment, anger. I should point out that I do feel positive and pleased with my self and my life right now, so that's not on the table. What are these emotions meaning to me...
1. Apathy: The apathy seems to run the day for now. Another way of putting it, as Surfer succinctly stated, is that I am not giving a sht. This is the most confusing emotion for. Apathy is lack of feeling, care, or concern. This is not how I would prefer to feel, but this is what is going on inside. It has been three weeks since I did the 2nd BD about her continued A and told her the constant lies were destructive. I made her lies a central focus as one of my boundaries and I even gave her a solution plan - simply do not say anything to me about what you do in your free time, just don't talk about it. Well, she did and she has continued lying and she did in email so its not like a conversation where I could walk away or cut it off. The fact that I have lost all ability to trust her (yes, I know believe nothing) has contributed greatly to this feeling.
2. Loving detachment: I do believe this is the goal for us. You are still in love w/ WW, but recognize that for your own self to feel better you have to back away, give space, have limited contact, and create a life for yourself independent from the WW. This is for your own health/well being and it has a tough love effect upon the WW - if it does not have that effect on her, than at least the WW has space to live w/ her own choices and move forward w/out your influence. I used to feel this one heavier, I do still feel it over the course of a day, but it is subtle mostly. This feeling is where hope and love still exist.
3. Anger: Coconut did a great job w/ honesty about anger on his post. I have not written much about my own, but truth is some days for sustained periods of time this one dominates. Not self anger. I feel a lot of aggressive anger for the OM. I am a dominant male by personality and my physical stature supports this, so I at least recognize the trespass on my ego drives this one and it does not help knowing that he is physically weaker, never met him, but imagine mentally weaker too. Don't freak out please, I am not going to attack him, that would have occurred many months ago if it was going to. While I have been able to accept that my WW's actions are not personal and that the WW is not who my W was/is (the W is who I love). I have also begun to be able to forgive my WW as part of my own healing, yet there is certainly anger towards her, which unlike the OM, is not a physical anger, more like a disappointment. Angry that she continues in the A, angry that she invited him into our lives, angry that when she asks me to see other women she is doing so out of pity and guilt, angry that she believes she is, as she put it, "I know you think me seeing him means I am not alone, but it is not true, I am very much by myself" (see, the WW is not rational - that statement by itself is a contradiction of terms).
So, that's my ride these days. Had to get it out there. Hope it relates to/explains to / or helps others. FWIW, the above does feel better than whoa is me or why did this happen. Detaching does work, but I realize it is a stage and like other stages comes with its own mini-stages if you will.
The hard part has been identifying what is in me, which made me what to reach out, to respond, to hold onto. To begin to repair those things and trigger new growth of the self within. I can do nothing for my WW... I can only do for myself. This journey for me is about wellness and healing. It is easy to be LBS and believe that the WW is the one with all of the healing to do in order to be right again. True, the WW has a lot of healing to do. But I have had to go through plenty myself.
I feel like you just looked into my soul or something. This is very profound for me and is something I've been really struggling with and working on over the past few weeks. I know my WW does have some healing to do but it would be too easy to blame it all in her. In not blind to my mistakes and my shortcomings and have been working hard to repair those things within me and grow. I know I still have a long ways to go but I am really starting to see the changes within myself and working on me has helped with my "need" to reach out and respond and try to hold on. I am finally getting to the point where I feel comfortable letting go.
I feel like this is what I needed to see this morning.
maybs,
I am so glad that you took comfort in that. It takes a certain amount of courage to get to that point.
I do believe the goal is to live a life without compromise. Some may come here and read what we all say and mistake it for waiting, but re-inventing one's self and releasing their partner to entertain their own journey while you refine yours is simply the fight all humans must face at some point - the fight for our own identity. I am not there yet, but I do hope realize that regardless if my WW ends her A, comes back from up from her MLC, or just realizes she created a world of ash for herself, that i have established a life for myself where her involvement in it is unrelated to my own joy and happiness.
I can see how it would seem like "waiting" to some.
Do I want my W to come home and work on MR... sure, obviously in my ideal world that would happen.
Do I need that to happen to feel happy and fulfilled? no.
I think I started out here with the intention of "waiting it out" but sometime in the last month I've realized it's about a lot more than that. Like you said it's about re-inventing and refining your life to make it what you want it to be, regardless of what your WW does.
Luckily, I'm a pretty quick learner and pick up on things pretty fast so while my sitch is still new (and of course everyone has bad days) I've been able to set myself on a different, much more effective and positive, course in a relatively quick amount of time. But I had help and support from friends and IC to get me on that track as quickly as I was able to.
I'm not perfect at GAL or 180-ing or sticking to everything else but I can see that it is making a difference, now whether that difference is something positive or negative for the MR, I don't know and it doesn't matter. I've made positive changes to my life and to find myself and that's what matters.
2. Loving detachment: I do believe this is the goal for us. You are still in love w/ WW, but recognize that for your own self to feel better you have to back away, give space, have limited contact, and create a life for yourself independent from the WW. This is for your own health/well being and it has a tough love effect upon the WW - if it does not have that effect on her, than at least the WW has space to live w/ her own choices and move forward w/out your influence. I used to feel this one heavier, I do still feel it over the course of a day, but it is subtle mostly. This feeling is where hope and love still exist.
I'm starting to see this and understand it more and more. I guess yesterday I was kind of testing to see just what I'm up against. I love my W. Crazy hair, inked up and confused. I know I still do. It's why I feel bad about doing and saying certain things, even though I know I have to do them in order to put my feelings back at a healthy level, work on ME and see where I really want to go.
Anger is another, but I'm working this out at therapy and have generally started to let it die down naturally. Yes, I would still like to take Trailer Trash and reenact scenes from Fargo. But I laugh now more than anything. I have anger towards W as well, but like you said it's disappointment.
You do have some good textbook like definitions, and being academically inclined these really help me.
I do believe the goal is to live a life without compromise.
Another thing I think about is ... 20 years from now when my kids ask me what happened, I want to be able to hold up my head and say I did everything within my power to do what is RIGHT for you guys, for your Mom and for me. I have made mistakes and will make mistakes, but I want there to have been integrity and self-respect in the way I handled myself. It's a struggle.
2. Loving detachment: I do believe this is the goal for us. You are still in love w/ WW, but recognize that for your own self to feel better you have to back away, give space, have limited contact, and create a life for yourself independent from the WW. This is for your own health/well being and it has a tough love effect upon the WW - if it does not have that effect on her, than at least the WW has space to live w/ her own choices and move forward w/out your influence. I used to feel this one heavier, I do still feel it over the course of a day, but it is subtle mostly. This feeling is where hope and love still exist.
I'm starting to see this and understand it more and more. I guess yesterday I was kind of testing to see just what I'm up against. I love my W. Crazy hair, inked up and confused. I know I still do. It's why I feel bad about doing and saying certain things, even though I know I have to do them in order to put my feelings back at a healthy level, work on ME and see where I really want to go.
Anger is another, but I'm working this out at therapy and have generally started to let it die down naturally. Yes, I would still like to take Trailer Trash and reenact scenes from Fargo. But I laugh now more than anything. I have anger towards W as well, but like you said it's disappointment.
You do have some good textbook like definitions, and being academically inclined these really help me.
You said you did a pulse check to WW last night RSG and I read how it went. Possible it was also a self-check to see where you are at? I re-read your post this morning. I had a reason today contact WW - she owes me money, and I wanted to make sure she paid correct amount into our joint checking (left open solely to transfer funds for joint debt). I was curious about the NC yesterday and did not wish to open up all Goddfellas with "where's my f'ing money". A three sentence email, polite, and short, nothing about the money - boom! Flood gates of stuff about S4 and how difficult he has (been w/ WW 2 nights). Response was validating, again 3 sentences and include zero offerings of what to do. Two minutes later, sent an itemized list of what WW owes me and why. But, I make no mistake to hide the fact: I wanted to see how I would feel about getting an email from her, and how she would respond to my out of the blue politeness (this was my 1st contact of the day in many months, I would have thought she would be surprised - nope, it was a total "me,me,me show"). Not surprised.
At least though my apathy has regressed for this part of my day and I am in the detachment feeling. So I can freely admit, I love the W trapped inside the WW. But I have let go, I am free and she is free. Told her that 3 weeks ago, still standing by it. Gonna take time.
Trailer Trash - funny! My WW is also w/ a redneck POS. One reason I know it won't last. She can't take that sht to meet her fancy a*s friends or her family.
Turning the vulnerability of solitude into strength.
Thanks RSG. Good to know I help you for how many times your story helped me.
I do believe the goal is to live a life without compromise.
Another thing I think about is ... 20 years from now when my kids ask me what happened, I want to be able to hold up my head and say I did everything within my power to do what is RIGHT for you guys, for your Mom and for me. I have made mistakes and will make mistakes, but I want there to have been integrity and self-respect in the way I handled myself. It's a struggle.
That is right sir! Me too.
I think someone could be both [MLC & wayward]...?
Man, I wish I could answer that. I am not sure, but I do think one begets the other and I think the MLC is in the lead. I should have included: - narcissistic low self-esteem, impulsive to my list.
Narcissistic low self-esteem: ✓ check!
Impulsive: ✓ check!
All this is somewhat of an academic exercise, but the way my brain is wired, it still gives me some peace to understand just what the hell is going on with my W.
I think my W is having an MLC of a very peri-menopausal variety. She hit a certain age, and is going into a kamikaze dive for male attention. She needs her brain to plunge into a vat of dopamine from a new infatuation, and OD on it.
Or, I'm simply a sexual mismatch for her, and she endured years of a bad marriage because she impulsively jumped into the marriage.
Man, I wish I could answer that. I am not sure, but I do think one begets the other and I think the MLC is in the lead.
Forgot to ask: you say MLC can beget WW, but not the other way around (which makes sense). So in some cases WW can occur w/o MLC. In that case, what drives the WW? If not MLC, what might a WW be motivated by?
The hammer of Sandi reigns it's heavy fantastic blow yet again! Legendary. Thank you.
True, yeah that could have been a check on myself. Can I handle the barrage that's bound to come? Every time I read about lovingly detaching it makes more sense. I guess you could call last night a shot across the bow. She shot back about as expected lol.
Sometimes we just have to see where things stand (with ourselves, them and "us") w/o letting THEM know that's what we're doing. Think you did a good job about the contact. Unless they start getting crazy, I think we're always going to love the person inside. Time is our weapon, even if sometimes it feels really difficult.
Yeah. Trailer trash. Now that I'm just accepting rather than freaking out, like I was, I know why she was saying stuff like "I don't want other people involved in our lives" when I told a mutual friend good luck in your new job. She didn't want anyone, other than her trashy new friends, to know. My b@lls are bigger than this guy's face, it just screams busboy at Denny's lol. I'm thinking that, like yours, it was a way to have someone treat them like perfection, to control and feel accomplished next to.
The really hard part about that is realizing the way you contributed to it. I think I know many reasons, but if we were to ever go into MC together I think I'd learn about more I never even realized.