Previous Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2671153Been a pretty good week so far of DB, tempted to snoop on Tuesday when W was home but resisted the urge, although I think she may have seen me watching her leave last night. Been distant communicating only when she reaches out and often delayed.
I believe I'm at a turning point - maybe not quite an awakening but a realization that I need to change, GAL, and modify my behavior around my W. I've also had a deepening in my Faith in the last week - growing closer to God. I came across a great quote (for those of you religious here):
"Patiently wait for the Lord to act on your behalf. Spend this time apart from your spouse to grow closer to the Lord through daily prayer and Scripture reading"
This morning was been particularly rough as I woke up really missing her in the bed beside me. Perhaps it's because I have family coming tonight and know she wont be around. I opened myself up to prayer and found it helpful but tears have been flowing this morning.
Goals for the weekend - have fun with my family visiting, pleasant interactions with W when we cross paths, no snooping and more time spent in prayer.
_________________________
Me: 39 W: 45
T: 12, M: 10
1 D: 9
Suspect A 6/15
ILBINILWY 8/15, and 3/3/16
EA/PA Discovered (ex-Boss) 3/23/16
EA/confronted admitted 3/25/16
W Moved out 3/30/16
Hey Pac it is tough very tough. It has been almost 5 years for me and at times I still struggle to understand. Yes finding God is a good thing. GAL yourself silly but also learn to enjoy your alone time. Learning to be ok alone will help you heal from this crazy experience. And I'm sorry you are here. But know that you will make it and will be happy again. Give it time and be good to you.
I cried to work and home every day; 87 miles commute each way for many months. This will pass ok...
Be strong and confident when you see her. Look good and happy. Think of a future without her. See what that looks like. Take care
Lots of anger last night and this morning... W original asked to switch Wed for Thursday with D as she had a "work event". I was ok with it as Wed worked better for me anyways this week.
I got suspicious of what she might be up to last night when she said she was at an event and couldn't call to say goodnight to D at her usual time. I didn't snoop but did recall her asking me about one of my favorite bands a few weeks back and that they had a concert coming up. So I went online to check and sure enough the concert was last night and I now believe she may have been there with OM. Feeling anger she would choose to be there with him over me.
I know we say that they have hurt us as much as they can by choosing to leave and having the A, but these little events just dig deeper and deeper into the pain.
PacLove: Good job at recognizing the turning point. The hard part is we want to see what is around the corner and we can't. Don't snoop and don't try and get info out of her.
The common theory is to act like you don't care and see if she offers anything up.
Try and keep it on your terms.
Thx. Yeah I'm tempted to ask her tonight how the concert was or have the band playing on the stereo when she comes home but I don't see any good coming out of that.
For the Catholic's out there check out today's Gospel reading.
How are others on here dealing with their Anger - yesterday I was filled with sadness, today anger is raging... I feel I just want to lash out at my W (yes I know don't - it will only make things worse) but I need to do something to unleash it.
I already worked out today that helped for a bit, I'm eating but I just can't stop thinking about how much she's hurting me right now. I'm boiling inside.
Read, meditate go for a run just stop stewing in your emotions they will only get you in trouble
Yes, what wsb said.
You have to actively engage your mind into something positive.
Acknowledge the emotions, but pass them through. Your mind can only stay focused on one thing at a time. Decide what that is.
Anger has its place. But raging anger does not benefit. Vanilla has a good thread on different types of anger. Check her thread and ask her about it.
White anger is good. She can better explain, but meanwhile hang in there, switch to a PMA, and have a good evening my friend.
PacLove,
I have been feeling that way as well, angry, sad.. I want to scream and cry at my H and let it out. Anger is tough to check and have slipt a couple times. I do best to check it when H is around and not so much when alone,
When you mentioned your W and plans, that they dig deep in the pain. I know what you mean. You may be feeling ok and then --Bam-- the plans are a constant reminder where they are not. My H tells me has plans w/ work ppl and knowing colleague he has feelings for involved is tough. It is taking his time and energy away and painful. As mentioned this is a good place to vent and get support.
Paclove
SH asked me to check in on you as he values your support very much. I wanted to read your threads first as I prefer not to welly it.
I can see you are struggling with anger.
There is a process called the Kubler Ross Grief curve, please can you Google it. That's the info bit.
One of the stages through loss and grief is anger, and I for one am very pleased when I read anger as a feature for a poster as it is the end of denial and bargaining. It marks real shift. Shift is different from change. Change is reversible, shift is a position that once you know you can never unknow. It also tells me shift is possible, many posters have stucknees for many years, it leaves them to repeat. Anger says I am substantially a healthy individual in a bad sitch, it bodes well. It is very good news and an indicator the DB process is working for you. You put in the work and anger is the reward of shift. And it is a reward even if it does not seem so.
That point of shift happens suddenly, it's vast movement. And it sometimes never happensfor posters, they resist it and lose the pivot point, the point at which the rocket to the moon boosts out of the atmosphere. It is the fuel.
The event which triggers shift is spell break. Knowing WW is at the concert was one such event, in an instant a light bulb, shift. Knowing that her children come below her selfish A need and OM is shift. It isn't the A that caused it, it is that knowledge that she truly is that selfish and lost. There is nothing you can do about it but observe it and get on with your life and being a great dad.
You, a dad put your kids first, that will mean your anger is as much for them as it is for you.
Anger is good, it is one of the prime emotions. You can't and shouldn't stop or apologise for the feelings. If you want to understand this, I recommend an amazing children's Disney film Inside Out. Go watch it. Make it something you do and then watch with your children, there is much to be learned in it, much metaphor and analogy.
You can love and be angry, you can be sad and be angry, you can have disgust and be angry, you can even be happy and be angry. Any of these emotions in combination.
Having the emotion and acting in accordance with your core values despite feeling anger is where emotional maturity lies.
So you have anger? Watch that anger and observe it.
Where in your body does it come from, what colour is it, it's consistency, does it move, block your throat, make your head pound? You can observe and monitor it. You can know.
There are many types of anger, a little like Red paint can be tinged with other colours. Add black and you have maroon, brooding anger. Add blue and you have regret anger. Add white and you have directed anger, strong directed determination of palest of pale pink. Add green and you have brown anger of envy, and finally add yellow and you have the orange of disgust anger. (These are typical for most, know your own). Anger can be tar like, stuck. It can move quickly round your body, like a wasp. It can blind you and raise your blood pressure. It can be cold and make you unattached from your actions (very dangerous).
You know that unattached is different to detached don't you? One is don't know, don't care and the other (detached) is observer as in that's interesting. I am asking you to move to detachment, get to mindfulness observer mode with your anger and know it's type and what is does for you. Oh yes you can detach from any emotion, you can be mindful observing and have the emotion. That's mature.
So pure Red anger may lead you to actions or words you reget, some things can never be unsaid. Whitest anger will motivate you with love to determination and positive action.
The amazing Zues and I had a very long discussion about anger, Zues is a poster who uses his anger to motivate him, to achieve. He is a master of observation, he detaches from his anger to become a winner, uses the emotion to fuel success and focus. I love Zues attitude to life (it's a secret so he must not know!). I recommend his threads to you. Anger can be powerful for change, justice and just sheer guts. It can be every day sort of grit too.
My anger isn't very strong as an emotion, it's not blocked though, my main emotion is sadness. I wished I had the gift of anger, it's precious so use it. This part of Kubler Ross is motivating. Please use it. So your plan for your anger? Let's see that if you want more shift.
These are my thoughts, I would like to see you describe this anger and what you will do with it. If you would like we can help you hone this gift.
V
Thanks V will take me a while to digest all the info.
Had pleasant interactions with W last night until she brought up her living accommodations. She wants to give notice to the tenants in our rental property so she can move in. She was seeking my approval.
I told her I did not agree with his and if she wants to give them notice it's her choice and that she has a home she can come by home to.
I also said that if she moves in there she'll have to figure out how to afford it on her own. If she does this it definitely puts some permanence to the separation. She originally said 3 months and when I asked her about that last night she said she thought we agreed until the end of the year at least and how she enjoys not fighting with me because we are apart.
I didn't sleep well at all last night and it killed my plans to go out for a ride this morning as I was too tired.
Another weekend past and another where both of us spent time together - positive or not, I don't know. Was W's weekend with D, she really wanted to go to an event on Saturday (as did I) so we made it a family day. W didn't originally want to go but she actually had a great time.
Today I had an opportunity to validate my W (over txt) as she was complaining about work. Was doing great I think until I related it to a personal experience I had a while back - I think that stopped the conversation short as I turned on to me... but I was merely trying to empathize with how she felt.
I had a great GAL day spending time with family yesterday on a big park - good or bad though unfortunately this allows lots of time to contemplate and reflect back on life.
Something strange I've noticed is over the last week I've found myself thinking a lot about one of my exes, perhaps its because I'm relating to the same feeling of loss I experienced back then after a long-term relationship having no control over the situation. The only difference is back then I brought up the idea of time apart to which she immediately latched on to and ran with it.
So I'm going to rant here for a minute... I can't help but think that the current Media promotes promiscuous lifestyles and likely had a direct impact on many of our M's. Many of the most popular TV dramas out there have "Affairs" as part of there plotlines, then there are a few more recent shows that are centered directly around Affairs and Promiscuous lifestyles.
My W has watched them all! And I can't help but think this has pushed her over the edge or at least given her some ideas or validated her decisions.
Ummm yes, I would agree. Did your W have a fave?
Not sure if mentioning TV shows violates any forum rules (if so, sorry and feel free to delete) but long standing have been Greys Anatomy and Scandal. Earlier this year she binged watched "The Affair", "Secret Diaries of a Call Girl" and "Mistresses".
Mine liked satisfaction which we watched together.
We only watched scandal together and I think Mistresses once or twice, she really didn't want me watching them with her despite me showing some interest. She mostly watched them on her tablet.
Satisfaction looks juicy, glad she hasn't found that one yet, probably cause it's not available in streaming.
W has been a bit chatty yesterday and today via IM... struggle with not responding (feel like I'm being cold and standoffish if I don't) is this a bad thing?
I usually wait a bit but the impatience gets to me and usually cave within the hour. some of it has been regarding D, some of it is just casual chit-chat about work or news. She always initiates.
I would agree, 100%, people also look for thing that feed and back up there dicision
Hey Blu,
Not sure I understand your response?
Hey Blu,
Not sure I understand your response?
Never mind realise you were respond to my rant on TV and not my question about IM.
Had a great day today, really productive at work for the first time in a while. I think I'm starting to realize W's actions don't impact me.
Her long weekend plans were spoiled and now she's trying to insert herself and make plans with D - but it's my weekend. I think I'm just going to be "unavailable" when she tries (I do have lots of activities planned this weekend). It's tough though as she talks to D about it, so it makes me look like the bad guy now when I say no... I feel a heated discussion coming on at some point. Maybe I'll just txt her and tell her that it's not ok to try and make plans with D on my weekend.
Staying strong, start with a new IC tomorrow - looking forward to talking to someone about my progress moods, and feelings.
Set your boundary but do so in a calm but strong manner. There is no reason for it to be heated. W can overheat if she wants to but you stay cool calm and collected.
Best wishes
PacLove:
My quick thoughts. If the message is regarding your kids, or $, or something you feel important - then respond promptly so you know you are doing your best. Anything else, don't bother with it. She may be trying to engage you and then go cold, she may want to keep you on a string, etc.
Also, save what you have to say (unless it's urgent) to when she initiates. That keeps you clear of being the pursuer etc.
Food for thought.
bigybiz,
Thanks - yeah I'm trying to hold off on those things as much as possible. Today she moved some money into the shared account but didn't totally cover her share so I see that discussion coming.
We have an event at D's school tonight and she said she's going to be there (originally she wasn't). I'm concerned she may try and bring up the weekend plans - or maybe even ask if she can stay at the house as her weekend away plans fell through and she may not have a place to stay, will see how it goes.
I need to stay firm this weekend - this is the time to show her what life is like separated which is what she asked for.
PacLove:
I grieve for you as you face the loss of your W in separation. Be prepared for static when you tell her that she can't stay at the house. Perhaps have a response ready e.g. a friend is coming over, I'm painting, etc.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks - shes actually been very reasonable for the most part through this whole experience (with the exception of the A/Lies) , hasn't really fought with me at all and has been more than fair - has more retreated than anything else. You can totally see the guilt weighing on her and as a result she gives in a lot.
I calculated the custody arrangement the other day and realize I've got my daughter more than 70% of the time and her less than 30% - and a lot of the time she has her, I've been there too.
She's also sharing all the household expenses with me, even paying for things one would normally not expect a WAW to pay for (House cleaners, nanny on my nights, lawn care etc)
All this makes it very difficult to be firm and not give into the small requests she has every now and then, for example last Saturday she let me join her to an event with D, so if she wanted to be nasty she could use that as leverage this weekend to join us. I don't know that she will... if she does I'll just remind her that it was her choice to leave, not mine.
Giving into these requests won't help her realize what she's really giving up in the end, so as much as it may hurt now it's hopefully for the better to show her what separation/D could be like.
So W was pleasant tonight at School closing, she didn't mention spending the night and off-course I didn't bring it up.
She has been trying to insert herself into the weekend plans, asked what we were doing and volunteered her plans to me for the weekend. I said we were busy and her response "I guess I won't see D tomorrow then?" to which I responded that it was my weekend with D. She off-course brought up last weekend and how she let me join her and D, trying to site it as a double standard. I responded by saying it was her decision to have space, not mine so I didn't see it that way.
Long weekend and not over yet, so I'm sure there will be more drama as the weekend unfolds... to be continued!
I do sense she's in an overall good mood and missing us a bit though... she was cheery when she called.
Spent the weekend mostly with D and family. W didn't manage to insert her into any plans and stopped trying after I reminded her on Friday that it's my weekend with D and she was then one that asked for space.
Saturday night I violated rule #36 as my Family visiting really wanted to go out - I now know whey this rule exists. Temptation is too great, I didn't do anything I would regret but on one side it's nice to know that there are women out there that still find me attractive. It is very easy to slip though after a few drinks so be careful! I think it's safe to say I won't be hitting the bars/clubs anytime soon again.
I found out through a friend this weekend about some of the issues that are really bothering my W about our R, nothing really new and it sounded like some smoke-screening to justify her leaving me and not get into details of the A (which she didn't admit to the friend). Anyways food for though in terms of what I need to work on.
I felt a little sad this morning, didn't really think much of her at all on the weekend, but she's always on my mind. She reached out twice over the weekend, once when she was shopping asking me if I needed anything and then again to suggest dinner together before my family leaves. I agreed to the latter as it was an opportunity to spend with my D on her night with her.
Harmful or not, I'll take very chance I can to spend additional time with D and try and show my good side and changes to W.
Pac, sounds like you did well this weekend, congratulations, is one small step at a time.
I have to agree with your comment about it being nice to know that there are women out there that still find you attractive. I find myself thinking about it more than I would like to, I know it would just be a temporary ego salve.
I wonder how many LBS become WS themselves, the thought of getting attention, intimacy and maybe a little revenge has got to be to strong for some LBS's. Personally I wouldn't want to add all the additional complications, but I would guess there are lots that do.
I would venture to say that family dinner wouldn't be highly recommended, but sometimes you just gotta do what you want. I wouldn't recommend making "family time" very often with your WW, even to spend extra time with your D, it just allows your WW to continue cake eating. And Quality time with your D is more important than quantity of time.
yeah I always get conflicted with these requests from her - in all honestly she has shown none of the "cold/fighting/argumentativeness" that many on here complain about, if anything she's been nice, accommodating and trying to be peaceful through all this so I feel like the a-hole every-time I push back or turn her away.
Well I humored her for dinner, had a nice time actually. I do think these little moments allow her insight into what she's missing as my family and I were talking about all the fine we had. towards the end she started talking to D about going to Europe somewhere down the road to which I jumped in that I'm planning to go with D next year. I think this irked her a little as she wants to be a part of a trip like that... so be it, she's making her own choices right now.
After D was asleep she started talking to me about her Job and complaining, I used this opportunity to validate her a little...
For the first time in a while, I didn't have any "strong" feelings towards her when I was looking at her, sure I still love her but attraction wasn't there like it usually is. Is this a sign of "Detaching"?
She ended up crashing with D again last night, her $'s are running short she's been spending quite a bit and I think that's going to hit her hard pretty soon.
OM I think is either out of town or things are fizzling as she hasn't been there since the ~18th or 19th (no I'm not tracking, but I can tell by a change in her behavior) - I haven't looked at the mileage on her car since the 20th... not easy!
Interesting discovery today - I was reviewing my Kindle list in Amazon and my W recently bought two books around "Polyamory"... this has been a topic she's brought up in the past, but at the time I was seeing it as an excuse to justify the A.
Now that we are separated I would have thought this idea would have been given up, but it appears like she may still be wanting it?
It could definitely explain her behavior (about trying to maintain the R/M)
So as pondered my discovery last night I think I'm realizing that my W must really be "in love" with OM otherwise why would she be researching ways to keep it going.
Anyways I kown thinking about it is not good DB'ing but it wasn't like I went looking for this, I accidentally came across it when I was buying a hook yesterday.
The little research I did on Polyamory says that no relationship that started out as an affair can ever end up in a Polyamory relationship as all trust is lost and Polyamory requires absolute trust. Hopefully she'll realise that too and decide that the monogamous relationship is really what God has planned for us.
Ramping up my prayers.
Remember you can't let her ever think you will be available for plan B. That is how you break through the fog. Ignore and don't respond to texts not related to your D. If she calls, if you bother to answer, just brush her off as if you're too busy.
The little research I did on Polyamory says that no relationship that started out as an affair can ever end up in a Polyamory relationship as all trust is lost and Polyamory requires absolute trust. Hopefully she'll realise that too and decide that the monogamous relationship is really what God has planned for us.
PacLove,
Some of the stuff that I read on this forum frightens me.
Do you really think your wife cares whether or not a polyamory relationship that started as an affair won't be lasting? She'll just find someone else.
I'm struggling with how to say this nicely, but if you see the fact that a polyamory relationship can't be the end result of an affair as a positive sign for your MR, then you must be whiffing some of your wife's affair fog.
TBH I don't know what she's thinking right now, she's often brought up that she doesn't need Marriage to be happy - but also doesn't want a D.
Going out of town for the weekend, didn't originally tell my W but she found out via the friends I'm visiting and now she insists on driving me to the airport tonight (I said I would take Uber) but she's planning to be at the house when I leave.
These acts of kindness really confuse me.
PacLove,
I'm sorry I was a bit crass; the WWs do know how to keep you off balance. I don't know what she's thinking either, but it sure seems like she wants both of you. In other words, she wants her cake and eat it too.
no need to apologize, yes I definitely see she's wants the best of both worlds, but she also has decided to move out, realizing she can't have that right now... She's not getting a "lot" from me or from the household benefits right now, and I'm trying me best to maintain those boundaries.
PacLove,
I'm sorry she's moving out; I know that's hard, but you're right, you have to maintain the boundaries.
Well, I do know of a relationship that kind of started out as an affair and is still going strong 5 or 6 years later. The marriage was open in the swinging sense, and one of the spouses fell in love with someone they knew socially. The marriage became polyamorous at that point.
So, not quite an affair, but I think it kind of felt like it to the other spouse initially.
Obviously, if one spouse wants a poly relationship, and the other wants a monogamous relationship, that's a problem. But just because she's thinking about it doesn't mean that will be her final decision.
Thanks Rose888, yea while I've contemplated the idea in the past (only cause she brought it up) I'm not sure as though I could - my faith is strong and I don't believe this is what God wants for our M.
W is in a dark place right now - her watching shows like Mistresses only glamorizes those feelings... There is the lure of excitement sure, but none of this leads to any good as we can see on this forum.
Whatever happens, I would never be able to accept OM as she's been lieing and betraying me about him.
Be careful, she may be just making sure you're still hanging on to the rope for plan B. At all costs don't be available for plan B!
Doesn't plan B = R though? I agree no one wants to be plan B, we all want to be our OS first choice but let's be honest. We aren't currently their first choice so we are DB'ing either to move on or in hope that OS will return, if the latter aren't we essentially being their plan B in the end even if we aren't acting like it through the DB process?
Bad DB'ing today... or not...
W did something to piss me off and I guess I got a little angry with her on the phone. (she said I was yelling at her, but I don't think I raised my voice).
We had some overlap time at home tonight as she was feeding D and putting her to bed, I just tried to distance myself but she could tell I was bitter and I was acting bitter (although trying not too)
I keep praying and God keeps showing himself though that M is meant to be and need to have patience. In Church today the message was focused on why bad things happen to good people, then in the mail today I got the latest issue of a popular news magazine with an article on "Marriage" and why it's important to make them work.
More frustrated than anything with the current sich.
Journaling...
Waking up this morning and all I can think about is ending the M. OM is back in town and pretty sure she left to go there last night.... the though of her with him eats away at me, I know this is why we need to move on and GAL but it's so difficult to do!
Found myself researching Divorce procedures within my state this morning, for those of you that did file, what ultimately tipped you to that?
It's been 3 months for me and I can't keep living in this limbo state, feel like I need to make a move of some sort.
Pac,
I understand this is hard emotionally. Let the emotions flow through you. You need to let go of them and focus on one thing at a time. You will get through this. 3 months is not a long time compared to some of the good DB'rs that have lasted over a year or more. Be patient and give it time if you really want to have you M work.
JK,
Thanks yes I know 3 months is not a long time... it's amazing how much the emotions affect you though.
On Catholic Radio this morning they were referencing yet another recent article on Marriage in a popular news magazine on why we marry the "wrong people", interesting read.
Reading through posts here it seems that there's a mixture of people that filed within a few months of BD and then those that haven't/will not file... I struggle as I'm indecisive right now, every time she does something that hurts me I lean more and more towards making a move to force us out of this limbo state.
A good friend of mine is encouraging me to approach W about an upcoming Retrouvaille weekend in our area. I've been wanting to see if my W would be open to this but fear she'd push it off.
Thoughts on asking her? Would this be seen as desperate from a DB perspective?
My thoughts were to just let her know it's in August and see if she would be open to attending to see if our M is salvageable. I wouldn't pressure her, would leave it up to her to decide.
It's starting to sync in now with D that the separation may not be so "temporary" as W has been telling her. She hasn't been sleeping well and Sunday night got emotional with me.
Last night as we were heading out we were talking about her upcoming birthday in the summer and she said that all she wants for her birthday is for M & D to get back together... breaks my heart, I hope she shares this with W too...
Has anyone checked out the latest LRT Videos from MWD? I've been getting emails on them and am tempted to give them a try...
Assuming the link is ok since it's a MWD site:
https://divorcebustingtraining.mykajabi.com/store/Q5UUUmn4
I've never even seen that video series before... Considering I just received my D papers yesterday... This would be helpful, but something has me a little skeptical of the link. Are these really MWD Training Vids or some kind of rebranding from someone else? what's mykajabi<dot>com?
It seems to be legit as there is also a recent post from the DB Facebook page with a 50% coupon for the videos.
Well, I have one phone counseling session left, and she said we'd be going over the LRT in detail during our next session (Monday or Tuesday). I'll probably wait until after that session to see if I think I need more info. Have you purchased any of the phone coaching? I would assume the cover these items in detail for your last hour.
Not sure if this is a violation of TOS, but can someone link me the facebook landing page for that 50% off coupon? I'm one of those weirdo people who refuses to join facebook.
I did 3 sessions of Phone Coaching - spent some time working on goals and looking introspectively at where I can improve. I think it'd be different then the video series... Was hoping maybe someone on here purchased it and could highlight it.
On another topic - anyone got any good responses to the question "Where's W" when out at social events etc? Close friends I've been letting on that we are separated, but I'm talking about the neighbors, school parents etc... got a couple events coming up this weekend (end of year pool party and the school festival) and I don't really want to be telling the whole world we aren't together.
I've never even seen that video series before... Considering I just received my D papers yesterday... This would be helpful, but something has me a little skeptical of the link. Are these really MWD Training Vids or some kind of rebranding from someone else? what's mykajabi<dot>com?
You just made me spit out my coffee, thanks. LOL
Looks like it's a 3rd party hosting site that MWD is using to post her training videos ;-)
On another topic - anyone got any good responses to the question "Where's W" when out at social events etc?
I used the excuse that was partly true, partly elaborated, but "her family is going through a hard time and she's been visiting with them a lot recently". I've also used her side job as an excuse in several occasions "she's picked up a lot of extra classes at the studio" or "she's trying to build/grow her side business so spending a lot of nights and weekends at the studio". Things like that...
It never feels comfortable to flat out LIE about what's going on. but honestly, its none of their business unless you want it to be. A simple, "she's with her mom" or "she's at work" or whatever is a simple, valid excuse, and anyone with a brain shouldn't really attempt to get much more out of you than that.
I did 3 sessions of Phone Coaching
On your last session, did your coach go over the LRT in detail?
I did 3 sessions of Phone Coaching
On your last session, did your coach go over the LRT in detail?
Not really, what I recall are:
A review of the previous 2 sessions
Canned Response to what she says if she brings up S or D
Suggestion to write an apology letter (which has been met with mixed reviews on here) - I wrote one but still have not given it to W
And goals to work on
[quote=PacLove]
It never feels comfortable to flat out LIE about what's going on. but honestly, its none of their business unless you want it to be. A simple, "she's with her mom" or "she's at work" or whatever is a simple, valid excuse, and anyone with a brain shouldn't really attempt to get much more out of you than that.
Thanks - yeah all her family is halfway across the globe, so that won't fly. And a few of my friends work at the same company as her, so that may not work either especially on the weekends... I'll try and come up with something creative, maybe she's with friends or something...
Not really, what I recall are:
A review of the previous 2 sessions
Canned Response to what she says if she brings up S or D
Suggestion to write an apology letter (which has been met with mixed reviews on here) - I wrote one but still have not given it to W
And goals to work on
Yeah, I think we started off at much different phases of our situation when dealing with coaches. I had already written my reconciliation/apology letter, and given it to her (it was basically ignored).
I have some time off the next few days, so I'm considering purchasing the MWD videos you posted... what's a $100 bucks for helping out the rest of my life, right?
Thanks - yeah all her family is halfway across the globe, so that won't fly. And a few of my friends work at the same company as her, so that may not work either especially on the weekends... I'll try and come up with something creative, maybe she's with friends or something...
I will give you some advice about "lies" in general, keep it simple. you can use creativity to come up with something simple, but you don't want your free flowing artistic vibes splatting crazy lies everywhere. Remembedr, the less detail you give in your response, the less interested they'll be with remembering what you said, or asking follow up questions.
I think I learned that watching spy movies or something.
Yeah I wrote to the same template but have been waiting 6 weeks for the review. Tempted to just give it to her as is now.
Visiting with friends is half truth as long as I don't go in to details. After all she's probably with OM who is a friend to her.
I actually spoke to "Reb" on the phone. He's literally a one man shop, and a retired pastor. Told me on the phone he receives hundreds of emails about letters and proofreading a day and said he just can't keep up with the workload.
PacLove, as long as you understand the message he's putting out there... Make it about her, her feelings, her hurt, her betrayal (by you) and how those things made her feel. Your fine. He didn't proof mine but I made damn sure it was spot on. Do not explain, do not justify, do not talk about how great things were/could be in only xyz changes. Only state the true message that you have "seen the light" and this has allowed you to understand your wrongdoings and how theyve hurt her so badly, you don't even need to say why you know, just that you now know.
Hope that helps.
This apology/reconciliation letter, should be the ultimate page and a half (ish) validation statement. In mine, I never even put the words (I'm sorry) in all the letter. If you write it properly, there's no need to, she'll get the meaning. You can always save the "I'm sorry" and the "will you please forgive me" conversations for face to face. Or perhaps follow up letter / card.
This apology/reconciliation letter, should be the ultimate page and a half (ish) validation statement. In mine, I never even put the words (I'm sorry) in all the letter. If you write it properly, there's no need to, she'll get the meaning. You can always save the "I'm sorry" and the "will you please forgive me" conversations for face to face. Or perhaps follow up letter / card.
This apology/reconciliation letter, should be the ultimate page and a half (ish) validation statement. In mine, I never even put the words (I'm sorry) in all the letter. If you write it properly, there's no need to, she'll get the meaning. You can always save the "I'm sorry" and the "will you please forgive me" conversations for face to face. Or perhaps follow up letter / card.
Yeah I didn't make it about me at all - other than what I've done wrong but reflected on how she must feel about the situation. It's the 5 paragraphs, a little over a page.
He did a quick review and said overall it looks good but would get back to me with specific feedback, that was on 4/27... maybe I'll try and call.
I've had a good friend of mine review it since and he provided some good feedback. Thanks for the tips, I'll re-read it.
I'm still surprised no one else has chimed in on this... No one has watched the LRT videos posted in this link?
Had a really great late night dinner last night with a close friend, won't go into details but he really pumped me up to be patient and continue down my path of prayer and optimism. He know's W pretty well too and believes this is just a phase she's going through.
Anyways, got home last night and W starts talking to me about logistical stuff... then as she's about to walk out the door to her place she drops the "I made a big mistake at work" the other day... I did my best to validate her but don't believe I did a very good job. She often complains about her work or the issues she has - so DB'ers what are some responses you've used to your W's when they complain about their job? Looking for ideas/help here on how to better validate and connect with her when she opens the door.
Thanks,
PL
Anyways, got home last night and W starts talking to me about logistical stuff...
Logistical stuff? Are you sure you're married to a woman? JK!
so DB'ers what are some responses you've used to your W's when they complain about their job? Looking for ideas/help here on how to better validate and connect with her when she opens the door.
PL
If you haven't done so yet, go to youtube and search "its not about the nail". It provide a rediculously great view on what's going on in this situation. (Laugh Later).
If she's complaining about her boss or coworkers, it's easy to jump on the train and complain with her, but try something like
"they always put you in these situations, it must be so difficult to deal with that kind of [disrespect/pressure/etc] on a regular basis at work."
or
"I can't believe your boss did that again/to you. How does he expect you to handle everything when you've already go so much going on?"
Stay away from "If it were me..." statements. She doesn't care how you would handle the situation. Stay away from (obviously), "you just need to XYZ (suck it up, do your best, etc). She doesn't want to hear solutions or answers.
Stick to her and her feelings on the topic. "That must be so hard", "to deal with that daily must be so exhausting". etc.
hope that helps.
Thanks betterm - good advice!
I asked D9 this morning what she's most looking forward to this summer (her last day of school was yesterday) and she responded her trip to X with W cause she's never been there before. I shared that I can see why as I've never been there either. That was a rat-hole as she asked why don't I come and I had to tell her that it's her trip with Mommy and that I'm not welcome... (A better Dad probably would have responded that it's her special time with M but I guess some bitterness still exists)
She then starts talking about the 10 commandments with me and how I need to honor thy mother (her M) smart cookie ;-) (meanwhile I'm thinking of the 6th commandment and how W has violated it...) She said she'd talk to Mommy about me coming to X with them but I honestly am not interested right now.
She is such a treasure, we had a great talk on her way to summer camp today, mostly about how things are going in school and how she feels about this one kid who's been sort of bothering her. As I dropped her off I realized how grown a little girl she is becoming and how she can help me get through this in being a friend and a D by me just listening to her and validating her.
Hello PacLove, How's your weekend? Just checking in as I haven't seen you on the forums. It sounds like your daughter is a real treat to have around. Keep a strong focus on your relationship with her; I don't have kids myself, but I know the connection between Father/Daughter can be very powerful and rewarding. It could be that boost you need to kick things into high gear.
Thanks betterm.
Weekend was pretty packed with end of school festivities and stuff... got asked a bunch where W was, even had one friend push me a little too much (one of my biking buddies who wanted to ride with me yesterday), that was not fun.
The highlight (or lowlight) of the weekend though was when W calls to speak to D on Friday night, we end up chatting for a few minutes while I'm trying to find D and she tells me shes out for dinner with new friends in X (X is where he lives some 40 miles away)... not sure why she'd volunteer this up, anyways story seems to check out as she has a new FB friend, but off course my mind races with rage as I'm trying to not want to know what she's up to...
Further more she ends up using one of the Credit cards I still get alerts on, and sure enough there's charges in his town Friday night and Saturday day on it. I guess I can stop monitoring that CC for my sanity, but still not sure how to handle the former.
I think she just slipped up, but maybe she's trying to make me angry to force me to make a move? Trying to say it's over? I really can't read her right now. She's been totally pleasant on the phone and in all our interactions - I've been the one drawing the line. I know the say no R talk, but I'm so tempted to sit her down and ask her what is on her mind and what is she thinking right now... just ask her to lay it out for me for my own sanity.
BTW finally got feedback on the letter... going to pen it out and leave it for her Tuesday when she's coming by the house next.
Also had a bit of a breakdown tonight when D was video chatting with D... I caught a glimpse of her and she looked so good... I'm really missing W this weekend... lots of anger and lonely feelings.
God i needed that just as much. I was drowning in my anger just now. Glad i read that.
Hi guys, I have also written a letter using the same website as mentioned. I showed it to my counseler and he mentioned that I don't say I'm sorry or asking for forgiveness. The reason I didn't is because I also say in the letter that I'm not trying to change her mind, just maybe help her heart heal. It is all about her as you guys have done cause I've realized now when I have written matters before they were more about me.
I haven't decided if I'm going to send it yet, I find W still very random and not sure if I have been getting some temp checks this weekend. She wants to have a phone call (about the kids) but she rarely keeps on topic. She wanted to do it last night but I was out watching the football. Had an email from her last night that had somewhat aggressive tone the first half, then talked about the kids, and threw in something about herself in the middle. She still seem to be a mess and all over the place.
I have seen her briefly but I don't feel she looks good, a couple of other friends have commented that they don't feel she looks good either. In some ways, it helps with the detaching as I don't feel missing feeling at the moment.
All the best of you send the letter and hopefully works in your favour.
Hi guys, I have also written a letter using the same website as mentioned. I showed it to my counseler and he mentioned that I don't say I'm sorry or asking for forgiveness. The reason I didn't is because I also say in the letter that I'm not trying to change her mind, just maybe help her heart heal. It is all about her as you guys have done cause I've realized now when I have written matters before they were more about me.
Yeah I originally had tweaked it at the end asking for her forgiveness but it didn't pass the review (got pulled out) that would be something that I want and she may not be willing to give right now... tough call, I still might be tempted to put it back in there.
tough call, I still might be tempted to put it back in there.
No. Don't ask for forgiveness at the end. All you are doing is taking responsibility for your part of the problems in the MR, and showing her that you understand her hurt, how you played a part in that hurt,that your working on bettering yourself, and that you'll be a safe person to come to if she wants to talk in the future.
You can ask for forgiveness later in a face to face. But remember, forgiveness is not nnecessarily something thats JUST for you. It's for her too, it plays a huge role in the healing process for the "hurt" party. Sure, it'll be nice to know that your apology was heard, and accepted, for you, but if she doesn't forgive, it'll be something that she drags around with her for the rest of her life... A problem my W is dealing with now from holding grudges and not forgiving her past troubles.
Apology, Acceptance of that apology, and forgiveness are all separate things that come at different times.
tough call, I still might be tempted to put it back in there.
No. Don't ask for forgiveness at the end. All you are doing is taking responsibility for your part of the problems in the MR, and showing her that you understand her hurt, how you played a part in that hurt,that your working on bettering yourself, and that you'll be a safe person to come to if she wants to talk in the future.
Thanks for the reassurance... now to try to exercise my best penmanship - I'm a terrible writer was originally going to just print it out but will see if I can make it neat and legible.
I plan to follow up the the letter with an invite to Retrouvaille later in the week but am not optimistic she'll be open to it.
I don't understand. When you first came here, you talked about how you pursued her and how it needed to stop. So why are you writing her a letter and planning to follow up with asking her to go with you to Retrouvaille?
The letter if I give it I don't see as pursuing, it simply stated where I've failed and what I'm doing to change.
Retrouvaille I agree could be seen as pursuing, I asked about that a few posts ago but didn't really get any feedback on it. It's only held in my area though 2x/year so I don't want to miss the opportunity if she's open to it. I was simply going to let her know now there's a weekend going and if she'd be interested. I may hold off on this and see how she responds to the letter if at all.
I spoke to my IC and some close friends who know W well about this and their thoughts were that either of them couldn't hurt the situation any more than it is and if she responds favorably could help.
BTW, an interesting perspective from a former wayward who I talked with was that he wasn't sure his W would take them back and be capable of forgiveness and was one of his barriers to initially returning.
He encouraged me to let my W know that I would be open to her coming home and check in with her every now and then to show her the door is open, otherwise the risk of them moving completely on is a possibility. Off course this is from a WAH and not a WAW, not sure if this is that different though.
PacLove: If Sandi2 says the letter and the conference are pursing - you may want to consider listening.
PacLove: If Sandi2 says the letter and the conference are pursing - you may want to consider listening.
I don't disagree, but I also don't think there's one size fits all to every situation. Each of our W's are different and our R's are different as are the problems that lead to the WAW....
I've been religiously following the 37 rules now for the better part of 2 months - with the exception of maybe the snooping, that's only been the last month, and that did more harm to me than W as she probably had no idea.
I want to follow the DB process but I feel she's getting more distant then ever and that worries me, although through so many stories I read online here they do say it gets worse before it gets better.
So what makes a turnaround a success? The ones I've read about from many different sources, seem to be the ones where we GAL but still leave a glimmer of light and door open for the S to return, but not being a doormat.
I put my foot down on that this weekend, apparently W was trying to plan a Father's day thing with D, (W never mentioned it to me) but I relayed to D that I wasn't interested in doing anything with W unless she's willing to recommit. D is pretty bummed as it's W's weekend, D wants to spend Sunday with me, but that will likely only happen if I'm open to W spending it with us as well.
I entirely agree that there is not a one size fits all. This whole thing is a process and we have to find what works for each of us and what "fits". I think Sandi2's advice has been fab. I wish she was my DB coach.
I do agree with the pursing though. We know from our own experience and every romance movie we have seen - playing hard to get works. I would agree that even asking your W to attend a conference could be seen as a sign of desperation - and we know that is a turn off.
I really struggle with the pursuing - even to this day, I want to invite her over, etc.
So you may not want to tip your hand - keep the conference for next year.
So this upcoming weekend is really bugging me. How is it fair that I need to give up father's day or a weekend without D just because of W's decisions. D wants to spend it with me, I want to spend the time with D, and W is supposedly (per D) ok with hanging out this weekend too but I know family time is discouraged from a DB perspective and I totally see why after my birthday weekend as it only causes more hurt. But again why do I have to give up time with my D for decisions my W is making?
Sandi is the pro around here, but I see nothing wrong with writing a letter, as long as it's CLEAR that you are only stating the things previously mentioned about the letter (accepting responsibility for your part). that's all the letter is, and it's almost an identical format that the "LRT Letter" is, which is recommended by DB coaches. (same story, different number of paragraphs).
HOWEVER, asking her out on a date is DEFINITELY PURSUANT BEHAVIOR! I'll have to agree with the rest, that this is a bad idea. If you think you know your sitch so much more than all us strangers do though, and you're 100% certain it provides a positive result... (tell me, what's a positive result? to get a date? ... errrr). anyways,
I'm not here to argue. My thoughts are: letter of accepting responsibility and NOTHING MORE = good idea... Asking on a date = bad idea. my 2 cents.
HOWEVER, asking her out on a date is DEFINITELY PURSUANT BEHAVIOR! I'll have to agree with the rest, that this is a bad idea.
Just to be clear I was not and do not intend to propose any dates with W at this point.
The only thing I was contemplating was letting her know about the upcoming Retrouvaille weekend in August. We attended a similar style weekend a few years ago and had a positive experience so she's familiar with the concept.
As for now I'll plan on the letter and see where that goes.
Hi Paclove,
Yes, it is going to sound like there is an echo around here.
Mentioning the Retrouvaille weekend is pursuing. Even though you have attended something similar a few years ago, it is still pursuing.
Are you sure your letter is a true LRT letter? I would suggest having a DB Coach take a listen and go from there.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
PacLove -Write the letter - just don't give it to her. Getting all your thoughts in one place is a smart approach. Maybe in weeks, months or days you can give it to her. Chances are in weeks, months, days you will be feeling different. Write the letter - but hold on to it.
Thanks the letter was written back in April. Have been sitting on it since and tweaking it over time.
Ok you all have convinced me to hold off on mentioning Retrouvaille, I'll wait for her to show signs she wants to work on M before bringing it up.
Still thinking about the weekend... I've got options too keep myself busy but what I really want is to spend time with D on Sunday, we have a long tradition of doing special things on Father's day (1-1), this will be the first year we break that tradition.
Came across a biblical passage yesterday that I thought relevant to many of us on here:
"The Lord will fight for you, and you have only to keep still.” Exodus 14:14
The only thing I was contemplating was letting her know about the upcoming Retrouvaille weekend in August.
I had purchased tickets for a band that my W and I both love, and had talking about seeing for SO LONG... together. When she started browsing through all our bank accounts, she noticed the almost $400 charges to ticketmaster and asked what they were. I blew it off and said "nothing." (at the time, all I wanted to do was tell her how I was planning a wonderful weekend away in a nearby city for us to spend together - as if it would've changed anything)... Instead, a few days later after she kept bugging me for what it was. I printed the tickets, left them on the counter and told her she can take a friend, or sell them herself, because I'd already made plans to be out of town with my brother instead(I hadn't, but I didn't want any pushback).
As for now I'll plan on the letter and see where that goes.
This is great. I'm assuming you did the "worksheet" supplied by Reb, on 'how I hurt my W'? it was like 50 questions or so. I will say, that worksheet did a number on me at the time. I felt so ashamed of myself as I was working through the topics... It's a great exercise to learn about yourself, and your H/W, and provides a great outline for things you need to work on for your future.
The only thing I was contemplating was letting her know about the upcoming Retrouvaille weekend in August.
I had purchased tickets for a band that my W and I both love, and had talking about seeing for SO LONG... together. When she started browsing through all our bank accounts, she noticed the almost $400 charges to ticketmaster and asked what they were. I blew it off and said "nothing." (at the time, all I wanted to do was tell her how I was planning a wonderful weekend away in a nearby city for us to spend together - as if it would've changed anything)... Instead, a few days later after she kept bugging me for what it was. I printed the tickets, left them on the counter and told her she can take a friend, or sell them herself, because I'd already made plans to be out of town with my brother instead(I hadn't, but I didn't want any pushback).
As for now I'll plan on the letter and see where that goes.
This is great. I'm assuming you did the "worksheet" supplied by Reb, on 'how I hurt my W'? it was like 50 questions or so. I will say, that worksheet did a number on me at the time. I felt so ashamed of myself as I was working through the topics... It's a great exercise to learn about yourself, and your H/W, and provides a great outline for things you need to work on for your future.
Yeah I did the worksheet and got it proofed by Reb.
Funny you mention a concert, we have tickets for a show coming up in Sept which we are supposed to go with another couple... I'll definitely be bowing out of that if things don't change by then.
I made a lot of stupid purchases in our 8 months of trying (August through March...) many of which I regret. I can't even bear myself to tell you what I did for her birthday... and I got the BD 5 days later.
Letter was left on counter this morning and gone when I got home. W didn't mention it all - she was pleasant when I got home, left shortly after. She had a new "look", more and more I'm thinking this is a MLC....
Letter was left on counter this morning and gone when I got home. W didn't mention it all - she was pleasant when I got home, left shortly after. She had a new "look", more and more I'm thinking this is a MLC....
Good, now you gave her the letter... What now? Nothing! I hope. Don't expect any reactions from her, don't expect things to change. etc. I know you've read the material offered on that site, so you know not to expect anything. Her "new look", might not be what you think... don't mind read. But you know these things. I hope you're good, and hope your letter is received well and softens her hardened heart a little bit, as he would say.
Good, now you gave her the letter... What now? Nothing! I hope. Don't expect any reactions from her, don't expect things to change. etc. I know you've read the material offered on that site, so you know not to expect anything. Her "new look", might not be what you think... don't mind read. But you know these things. I hope you're good, and hope your letter is received well and softens her hardened heart a little bit, as he would say.
Yup I know not to expect anything, although before DB/BD she usually responded to my letters with a thanks, or that's sweet but again no expectations.
The new look I wouldn't normally care about but it was a bit "rebellious looking" so got me thinking. I know don't mind read... but everything that's gone on in the past year it's hard not to go there.
She did ask me what my plans were for the weekend as it's her weekend with D. I was originally going to be away but have some fun local activities planned here so I told her I'd be around.
She did agree to me having dinner with D on Sunday night, not sure whether that's just the 2 of us or the 3 of us, guess we'll see. I didn't want to clarify tonight as it would only result in an argument.
I wouldn't read too much into the new look either, my W has done none of these things despite being wayward. From accounts from friends, W doesn't go out much, they don't feel she looks very well. She hasn't changed her look at all, I don't even think she has got a haircut in the past 6 months. I know how stress effects my W, and I see her as someone very stressed, it looks from the outside like it's affecting her anyway.
I have heard that she can't get up early when she has the kids to get them to school/daycare and then go straight to work. Friend told me that she always goes back to her place to get ready for work after dropping kids off.
Since Sunday morning I communicated about a dozen words to her in 2 texts, I received back about 2-300 words in texts and emails.... I know why they say mind reading is just a waste of time and energy cause if I know my 'old' W, this was almost a feeling of loneliness from her. It is how she was with me at the beginning, rambling on about her day and the things she had done.