When the goal is positivity - 02/05/16 03:09 PM
New post.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/05/16 03:59 PM
Thank you all for your support.
last thread ended with me coming to terms with this endless cycle of emotionally charged negativity, that quite literally consumes me. In the past, I would call and pick fights with husband. I no longer do that. But internally I get myself to a pretty big degree of rage that certainly does not help me.
JellyB suggested that it comes from fruturation from the lack of communication with husband which is certainly on point.
Trying to figure out where to go from here.
Thank you again. I am so greatful and amazed at the wisdom and expertise and kindness of these boards.
last thread ended with me coming to terms with this endless cycle of emotionally charged negativity, that quite literally consumes me. In the past, I would call and pick fights with husband. I no longer do that. But internally I get myself to a pretty big degree of rage that certainly does not help me.
JellyB suggested that it comes from fruturation from the lack of communication with husband which is certainly on point.
Trying to figure out where to go from here.
Thank you again. I am so greatful and amazed at the wisdom and expertise and kindness of these boards.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/05/16 04:28 PM
Painter,
I missed your post until now just rereading. OMG. We have so many similarities! I Felt so frusturated with my husband's attitude and way of communicating, I would diagnose him as being on spectrum ( I know I am not supposed to do that). Even his mother would get frusturated and tell me how patient I was (not trying to come across as an angel cause I have some flaws as well)
Once in order to give me advise, MIL told me "sometimes you just have to let them be a..holes". (Zues Is this what you meant when you said no such thing as perfect relationships"
)
He would also get annoyed when I would ask to review budget. Things logically didn't make sense to me and he too deflected. That drives me crazy. For professions that are supposed to be based on logic, I don't understand his lack of logic. I like things quantified and when he can't quantify he deflects and I end up totally Frusturated.
I missed your post until now just rereading. OMG. We have so many similarities! I Felt so frusturated with my husband's attitude and way of communicating, I would diagnose him as being on spectrum ( I know I am not supposed to do that). Even his mother would get frusturated and tell me how patient I was (not trying to come across as an angel cause I have some flaws as well)
Once in order to give me advise, MIL told me "sometimes you just have to let them be a..holes". (Zues Is this what you meant when you said no such thing as perfect relationships"
) He would also get annoyed when I would ask to review budget. Things logically didn't make sense to me and he too deflected. That drives me crazy. For professions that are supposed to be based on logic, I don't understand his lack of logic. I like things quantified and when he can't quantify he deflects and I end up totally Frusturated.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/05/16 05:36 PM
Julie
Just to let you know I keep up with your thread, and although I don't post, I read up.
I know you sense us silent beings lurking.
V
Just to let you know I keep up with your thread, and although I don't post, I read up.
I know you sense us silent beings lurking.
V
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/05/16 09:29 PM
Julie, I just wanted to let you know that I experienced a few waves of rage today and I thought of you!
I also realized that rage feels a lot better than depression or rejection. Could be a method of self protection.
So, the goal is positivity. Can you be more specific? I would love to get on board with this.
I am thinking for myself to start with my language. I say (to myself) "I HATE H" about a thousand times a day. I will replace that with "these feelings are temporary." I can work my way up to actual positive thoughts. I also give his picture the finger every time I walk past it. I will stop doing that.
I also realized that rage feels a lot better than depression or rejection. Could be a method of self protection.
So, the goal is positivity. Can you be more specific? I would love to get on board with this.
I am thinking for myself to start with my language. I say (to myself) "I HATE H" about a thousand times a day. I will replace that with "these feelings are temporary." I can work my way up to actual positive thoughts. I also give his picture the finger every time I walk past it. I will stop doing that.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/05/16 09:40 PM
In order to keep things improving with H, I have tried to really detach from any behavior I find hurtful or frustrating. I know that I have a tendency to think that H's behavior be about me, when most of the time it isn't personal at all.
What seems to work for me (at least on a good day) is to walk away from the behavior mentally and physically - detach and quickly focus on something I need to get done.
What seems to work for me (at least on a good day) is to walk away from the behavior mentally and physically - detach and quickly focus on something I need to get done.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/06/16 06:38 AM
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/06/16 09:30 AM
I have just seen an interesting video on YouTube about being angry. Very enlightening for me. Basically the guy asked to accept the anger and apparently once we have accepted it we can see some solutions. I'll have to try that.
Can't believe how much reading I do to deal with my issue of being abandonned :-)
Can't believe how much reading I do to deal with my issue of being abandonned :-)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/06/16 09:34 AM
Originally Posted By: JulieH
Painter,
I missed your post until now just rereading. OMG. We have so many similarities! I Felt so frusturated with my husband's attitude and way of communicating, I would diagnose him as being on spectrum ( I know I am not supposed to do that). Even his mother would get frusturated and tell me how patient I was (not trying to come across as an angel cause I have some flaws as well)
Once in order to give me advise, MIL told me "sometimes you just have to let them be a..holes". (Zues Is this what you meant when you said no such thing as perfect relationships" )
He would also get annoyed when I would ask to review budget. Things logically didn't make sense to me and he too deflected. That drives me crazy. For professions that are supposed to be based on logic, I don't understand his lack of logic. I like things quantified and when he can't quantify he deflects and I end up totally Frusturated.
I missed your post until now just rereading. OMG. We have so many similarities! I Felt so frusturated with my husband's attitude and way of communicating, I would diagnose him as being on spectrum ( I know I am not supposed to do that). Even his mother would get frusturated and tell me how patient I was (not trying to come across as an angel cause I have some flaws as well)
Once in order to give me advise, MIL told me "sometimes you just have to let them be a..holes". (Zues Is this what you meant when you said no such thing as perfect relationships"
) He would also get annoyed when I would ask to review budget. Things logically didn't make sense to me and he too deflected. That drives me crazy. For professions that are supposed to be based on logic, I don't understand his lack of logic. I like things quantified and when he can't quantify he deflects and I end up totally Frusturated.
No one is perfect, yet everyone is perfect. Take a dog. I am a dog guy. Dogs are as close to perfect as you get. There is really nothing bad about a dog. If they aren't toilet trained they will go to the bathroom in the kitchen...is that bad? Or is it that we expect something from them they don't understand that isn't inherently important to them? And once they learn it makes us happy when they go to the bathroom outside, all they want to do is do it right. There is a book called "there are no bad dogs". It says there are bored dogs, neglected dogs, misunderstood dogs, poorly trained dogs...but there are no BAD dogs. Dogs live for nothing more that to show us love. Yes, they might chew something up that was important to us, but that just means we have a complicated world and we value things they don't, and we don't get mad at them for that, we get mad at ourselves for expecting something beyond them being a dog. Any dog owner loves their dog, they don't walk around all day pissed off that their dog isn't good enough or upset at how our dogs communicate.
Husbands are no different. Men really want nothing more than to make their partners happy. Happy wife, happy life. Unhappy wife, unhappy life. Men are fed on admiration and appreciation, and they feel that expressed by physical acceptance. A man wants nothing more in his life than for his wife to tell her girlfriends she's got a catch. And nothing stabs him through the heart worse, NOTHING...than if she talks bad about him. When a man's wife criticizes him he gets hurt. When it continues, he gets defeated. If no matter what he does he is getting torn apart he gets very, very wounded. Then finally he gets resentful because he asks himself this question: "Why, if my boss respects me, my employees respect me, my children respect me, my family respects me, my sports team respects me, why if everyone else in my life thinks I'm a good guy, why does this woman only see me through $hit tinted glasses and think there's something wrong with me?" You say that all of your friends and family see you as being patient and calm...I'd bet all of his friends and family see him as being a good guy that has value. My point is at some point he gives up, and either walks away physically, or emotionally withdraws because he doesn't want to be emotionally beaten anymore.
Then when he does this is used as more evidence that he is a bad guy?
I'd really suggest you talk to IC/DB Coach about this. I have worked through a lot of anger, and have a ways to go yet. But there's got to be some ways to make progress. For example, you could challenge yourself to follow every angry comment about H with a reflection on why you find the need to attack him there, why you're so sensitive in that spot, etc. And you could then follow it up with 5 things you like about him or specific things he has done in the past that are good, things that when you first were together made you feel like he was a good guy.
This is just an example of an exercise, but if you get in the habit of owning your anger rather than blaming it on him for being human, and forcing yourself to refocus on positives...maybe that would be a good experiment.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/06/16 10:48 AM
Might take me a couple months Zues, but I feel like I do need to get to that point: "My point is at some point he gives up, and either walks away physically, or emotionally withdraws because he doesn't want to be emotionally beaten anymore." I know I have to be patient and it will take forever, but I do see that in my future.
Julie have you tried that thought blocking stuff? My IC gave me a lot of cool pointers about it to redirect negative thoughts / anger. Works for me some of the time.
Julie have you tried that thought blocking stuff? My IC gave me a lot of cool pointers about it to redirect negative thoughts / anger. Works for me some of the time.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 04:59 AM
My dog savaged my legs
He had rabies
V
He had rabies
V
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 12:29 PM
Didn't want to just not write anything. I will be mulling all the posts over.
Friday, pipe from under ground in boys room had leak so some flooding. Of course mold in wall that has to be addressed Asap. At same time son and I came down with nasty virus. I. COuld barely make it to kitchen to get water, he still has tons of energy.
Will respond when I can think better. Thanks all.
Friday, pipe from under ground in boys room had leak so some flooding. Of course mold in wall that has to be addressed Asap. At same time son and I came down with nasty virus. I. COuld barely make it to kitchen to get water, he still has tons of energy.
Will respond when I can think better. Thanks all.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 01:12 PM
Thanks Julie. Sorry to hear you're not feeling well. Hang in.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 02:40 PM
Wishing you a speedy recovery Julie. Your absence is always noticed. It's never the same when you aren't around. I love your intellect and self reflection, honesty and authenticity. Be well soon. Jellyxxx
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 02:41 PM
Julie, I hope you are feeling better. I am still angry. I notice lately that even when H does something positive, like call me, I am angry with him. (In my defense he really makes it easy.) But I am seeing that my anger could potentially be a stumbling block in our reconciliation.
Feel better.
Feel better.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 07:23 PM
Hi, I'm really not feeling good, but running now on emotional energy and frusturation. My heart is racing.
Basically I had texted asking husband if he could help out this week with kids because I'm sick. He called me back and said he couldnt. And said he was going away for work trip Thursday and coming back Sunday. This was very suspicious to me, as its Valentine's Day weekend. He said he didn't even know it's Valentine's Day, that he just knows it's superbowl and that we had no plans on v day because we are separated.
Of course I brought Valentine's Day up, because I am not great at divorce busting and it sounds VERY SUSPICIOUS. He insisted its business. Never before has he ever travelled on weekends till he left so yes I am suspicious. He insists no other woman. I asked him about emotional affair. He said he wants no emotional connection with any woman. He said he didn't ask me about my mysterious weekend,that my car was there and that he won't ask about it.
(I just read txhubbys post about wanting space and being in denial. I would never think husband matched as a cheater, but no one else ever did. it would explain so much )
And then I said he's sending me mixed signals. And he started yelling about how I have nerve asking him about reconciliation when I took him to court. And just started yelling about how I have all these new coats and hes getting raped, and asking me what I need the money for. He started yelling at me for taking him to court. And was mad because he overpaid by 200 and had every right to not pay me full amount in next check, since I wanted everything done legally.
I told him he did not pay for 4 months and what he was buying kids came no where close to court mandated child support and why does he think he should be only man to not have to pay court mandated child support.
He kept insisting that I kicked him out that he didn't leave. That everyone he talks to thinks he is crazy for even considering reconciliation. I told him of course, they are only hearing his side of the story, he said he doesn't listen to other people like I did when I took him to court and that he know other people were telling me to take him to court. He was mad that I brougt my father to the court house with me and he knew I would do that so he brougt his mom. That I pushed him out and that I am verbally abusive. That throughout the entire relationship he did all the compromisimg.
I told him when I took him to court it was after he had told me he did not want reconciliation. He told me I was pushing for an answer like I am now. I told him that just as angry as he is about the money, I am angry about having to lose kids every other weekend. He said things were horrible for him or he wouldn't have made decision that would make it so he loses time with kids and money
He said that by the law he is entitled to more time with them and was upset that I wouldn't compromise with him in court room regarding prorating things like child cAre and other such expenses (I have not yet asked for a cent of that but will need to for camp ).
He was all over the place. Really angry. That he's not saying he wants divorce and he's not saying he wants reconciliation. Telling me he needs to talk to me in person about that and we need to go over advantages and disadvantages of each. (This part is reasonable to me). That If we go through with divorce he doesn't want surprises. He wants us to come up with agreement and then bring it to attorneys. He wants to avoid litigation because we have nothing, but his lawyer is prepared to fight back and that litigation will just make things nastier between us which is bad for kids. That if we work on weekends we have to make compromises (me working more to survive the area that we live in)
He is saying that I have made no actions regarding reconciliation...referring to working extra. I told him it sounds like he is saying have to go to work full time as an ultimatum. He says if I wanted reconciliation i wound not have taken him to court?????? I told him when I took him to court he had told me he wanted no reconciliation and at that point I was completely done. He was the one to bring up reconciliation with me.
Basically he was just super angry with me and yelling and frusturated. I was mostly quiet. I wasn't feeling well. I just listened and he yelled.
He even said how I thought counseling wasn't helpful but he did cause he was able communicate his feeling (he just yelled at me the whole time) he finished by saying that basically our conversation made him feel less confident that we can reconcile.
I just want to give up. At this point, I don't want to lose kids every other weekend and probably more and that is why I am hanging on. I am suspicious of cheating.
I am in decent position right now if it does come to litigation. Although I Think he is trying to build the "verbal abuse pushed me /kicked me out " BS probably to make a case. Either that, or he is in a weird denial.
I am fearful that with reconciliation course he is just trying to get me back to work full time so he doesn't have to worry about prorating legal feels or alimony. Then once I do he can file. (I actually talked to friends in business to get extra hours and my available times didn't work for them. In a way I am greatful) would love advise on this.
Basically I had texted asking husband if he could help out this week with kids because I'm sick. He called me back and said he couldnt. And said he was going away for work trip Thursday and coming back Sunday. This was very suspicious to me, as its Valentine's Day weekend. He said he didn't even know it's Valentine's Day, that he just knows it's superbowl and that we had no plans on v day because we are separated.
Of course I brought Valentine's Day up, because I am not great at divorce busting and it sounds VERY SUSPICIOUS. He insisted its business. Never before has he ever travelled on weekends till he left so yes I am suspicious. He insists no other woman. I asked him about emotional affair. He said he wants no emotional connection with any woman. He said he didn't ask me about my mysterious weekend,that my car was there and that he won't ask about it.
(I just read txhubbys post about wanting space and being in denial. I would never think husband matched as a cheater, but no one else ever did. it would explain so much )
And then I said he's sending me mixed signals. And he started yelling about how I have nerve asking him about reconciliation when I took him to court. And just started yelling about how I have all these new coats and hes getting raped, and asking me what I need the money for. He started yelling at me for taking him to court. And was mad because he overpaid by 200 and had every right to not pay me full amount in next check, since I wanted everything done legally.
I told him he did not pay for 4 months and what he was buying kids came no where close to court mandated child support and why does he think he should be only man to not have to pay court mandated child support.
He kept insisting that I kicked him out that he didn't leave. That everyone he talks to thinks he is crazy for even considering reconciliation. I told him of course, they are only hearing his side of the story, he said he doesn't listen to other people like I did when I took him to court and that he know other people were telling me to take him to court. He was mad that I brougt my father to the court house with me and he knew I would do that so he brougt his mom. That I pushed him out and that I am verbally abusive. That throughout the entire relationship he did all the compromisimg.
I told him when I took him to court it was after he had told me he did not want reconciliation. He told me I was pushing for an answer like I am now. I told him that just as angry as he is about the money, I am angry about having to lose kids every other weekend. He said things were horrible for him or he wouldn't have made decision that would make it so he loses time with kids and money
He said that by the law he is entitled to more time with them and was upset that I wouldn't compromise with him in court room regarding prorating things like child cAre and other such expenses (I have not yet asked for a cent of that but will need to for camp ).
He was all over the place. Really angry. That he's not saying he wants divorce and he's not saying he wants reconciliation. Telling me he needs to talk to me in person about that and we need to go over advantages and disadvantages of each. (This part is reasonable to me). That If we go through with divorce he doesn't want surprises. He wants us to come up with agreement and then bring it to attorneys. He wants to avoid litigation because we have nothing, but his lawyer is prepared to fight back and that litigation will just make things nastier between us which is bad for kids. That if we work on weekends we have to make compromises (me working more to survive the area that we live in)
He is saying that I have made no actions regarding reconciliation...referring to working extra. I told him it sounds like he is saying have to go to work full time as an ultimatum. He says if I wanted reconciliation i wound not have taken him to court?????? I told him when I took him to court he had told me he wanted no reconciliation and at that point I was completely done. He was the one to bring up reconciliation with me.
Basically he was just super angry with me and yelling and frusturated. I was mostly quiet. I wasn't feeling well. I just listened and he yelled.
He even said how I thought counseling wasn't helpful but he did cause he was able communicate his feeling (he just yelled at me the whole time) he finished by saying that basically our conversation made him feel less confident that we can reconcile.
I just want to give up. At this point, I don't want to lose kids every other weekend and probably more and that is why I am hanging on. I am suspicious of cheating.
I am in decent position right now if it does come to litigation. Although I Think he is trying to build the "verbal abuse pushed me /kicked me out " BS probably to make a case. Either that, or he is in a weird denial.
I am fearful that with reconciliation course he is just trying to get me back to work full time so he doesn't have to worry about prorating legal feels or alimony. Then once I do he can file. (I actually talked to friends in business to get extra hours and my available times didn't work for them. In a way I am greatful) would love advise on this.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 07:39 PM
So basically he wants to either negotiate a reconciliation which will most likely entail me returning to work more hours or figure out how to proceed with divorce. At least that is how I took it. Will find out more when we talk in person in a few weeks.
I would tell him, I would never proceed with divorce without attorney,
i took a bit of control back and said him lhaving to pay child support and both of us losing time with kids is the Downfall of a divorce. He agreed with that.
I said that he has a lot of anger he needs to get over. (I did not mention my anger)
I would tell him, I would never proceed with divorce without attorney,
i took a bit of control back and said him lhaving to pay child support and both of us losing time with kids is the Downfall of a divorce. He agreed with that.
I said that he has a lot of anger he needs to get over. (I did not mention my anger)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 08:37 PM
You know what???
Husband started taking the strong offense against me, after I had questioned his business trip on Valentine's day weekend. He is coming home on Sunday. He said his company aquired another company so they are sending him away. He is not coming home till Sunday because he does not want to take red eye and there is a function.
And we all know why a strong offense is important right???
I am so tempted to confront right now, but I cannot because he is visiting family.
An affair is my boundary. I don't know what else this could be. I want to call and say
" I find it highly suspicious that you are going away on Valentine's day. I find it even more suspicious that when I brought this up you took an offensive position and started attacking me about taking you to court back in December. The only reason I can see you bringing this up to me again was to deflect from Valentine's Day weekend. I suspect that you are just trying to pretend to reconcile so you can get me to return to work full time. I am getting a lawyer".
Husband started taking the strong offense against me, after I had questioned his business trip on Valentine's day weekend. He is coming home on Sunday. He said his company aquired another company so they are sending him away. He is not coming home till Sunday because he does not want to take red eye and there is a function.
And we all know why a strong offense is important right???
I am so tempted to confront right now, but I cannot because he is visiting family.
An affair is my boundary. I don't know what else this could be. I want to call and say
" I find it highly suspicious that you are going away on Valentine's day. I find it even more suspicious that when I brought this up you took an offensive position and started attacking me about taking you to court back in December. The only reason I can see you bringing this up to me again was to deflect from Valentine's Day weekend. I suspect that you are just trying to pretend to reconcile so you can get me to return to work full time. I am getting a lawyer".
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 08:38 PM
I just want to know the truth. I don't want to be in limbo.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 08:40 PM
There is no way he'd be having this conversation if the idea of R wasn't in the picture. Did it sound like he enjoys this? He is in limbo too. The only reason he's dealing with it is because he hopes it improves. But if it doesn't I'm sure at some point he'll file, just like at some point he separated.
In your last posts I hear you talking about how he yelled. I haven't seen you write anything that shows that you really appreciate what he's saying. When someone says the same things, multiple times, in escalating tones...that's a sign they don't feel they're being heard. And it doesn't look like he is, because you continue to type your side of it and why you don't feel he's being reasonable or fair.
Then you go back to the giving up thing. Giving up won't lessen the pain from the loss of your marriage and it comes from the same place that he did when he walked, one of the things you are most upset with him for doing.
I know you have tried to understand his point of view. If you do intend to stand by your M I think you need to step up your validation game. It's not about psycho canned responses. It's about being able to articulate 'his side' as well as he can.
I remember I had an argument with XW once when we were recently separated. It was my ONLY argument post BD. Funny, this was during my high alert faze where I tape recorded a few of our interactions so I had it on my cell phone. I was mad at myself for failing to validate, so later I listened to it again. I wrote out her point of view and underlying concerns. Funny thing- once I wasn't in the heat of the moment I recognized great validity in everything she was saying, even if some of the details differed. It was eye opening. I later emailed her back saying "Finances, legal system, children...could it get any more intimidating? We weren't the best at communication during our R, now's a heck of a time to try to improve. Anyway, it couldn't have felt I heard anything you had to say, so let me tell you what I think your main points were." Then I bulleted them ALL out. I concluded by saying "While we may need to compromise here and there, I find that I agree with you 100% in all of your underlying concerns, and we'll keep them in the center of any decisions we make for our family."
I'm quoting something I posted earlier. Keep working JH. You will get there if you stay the course.
In your last posts I hear you talking about how he yelled. I haven't seen you write anything that shows that you really appreciate what he's saying. When someone says the same things, multiple times, in escalating tones...that's a sign they don't feel they're being heard. And it doesn't look like he is, because you continue to type your side of it and why you don't feel he's being reasonable or fair.
Then you go back to the giving up thing. Giving up won't lessen the pain from the loss of your marriage and it comes from the same place that he did when he walked, one of the things you are most upset with him for doing.
I know you have tried to understand his point of view. If you do intend to stand by your M I think you need to step up your validation game. It's not about psycho canned responses. It's about being able to articulate 'his side' as well as he can.
I remember I had an argument with XW once when we were recently separated. It was my ONLY argument post BD. Funny, this was during my high alert faze where I tape recorded a few of our interactions so I had it on my cell phone. I was mad at myself for failing to validate, so later I listened to it again. I wrote out her point of view and underlying concerns. Funny thing- once I wasn't in the heat of the moment I recognized great validity in everything she was saying, even if some of the details differed. It was eye opening. I later emailed her back saying "Finances, legal system, children...could it get any more intimidating? We weren't the best at communication during our R, now's a heck of a time to try to improve. Anyway, it couldn't have felt I heard anything you had to say, so let me tell you what I think your main points were." Then I bulleted them ALL out. I concluded by saying "While we may need to compromise here and there, I find that I agree with you 100% in all of your underlying concerns, and we'll keep them in the center of any decisions we make for our family."
I'm quoting something I posted earlier. Keep working JH. You will get there if you stay the course.
Quote:
I think you need to do both. Validate and boundary set/truth dart. They don't have to conflict.
The thing is, validation is all about acknowledging the other person's point of view. That is it. The challenge for LBS's is we really don't. But we expect them to understand and agree with ours. Seek not to be understood, but to understand. Someone has to step up and lead the way. And what I've learned is that when people feel understood and acknowledged, they feel so grateful and appreciative of that they want to reciprocate.
Take an exchange I had last week between me and my manager. Now, he is a great manager, and I am a great employee.
The background needed: I am a star employee that hit my goals in 2015 in year 1 on the team
The topic: Me being given a verbal warning for missing January goals
My manager and I had a scheduled 1:1. He spent most of the time working with me on my game plan, helping where he could, probing me and challenging my plans in certain areas, getting involved in a few spots to assist, and giving me feedback on what my plan was. This was all done in a respectful way. Then at the end he brought up the verbal warning.
He did it almost apologetically. He started by telling me he understood how things had played out. He acknowledged that I had gone through a lot in Nov/Dec with custody battles and divorce, and that he knew that impacted me. He also understood that the entire market was challenged during seasonality, and that being in a longer sales cycle that operates on pipeline, these factors created a storm in which poor results were hard to avoid.
Before he could even get to the part where he held me accountable for my actions, I objected. I told him that we all have personal lives, but that I was a professional, and I make no excuses for my management of my assignment. I told him that while business slowed down, I didn't do my part to anticipate the decrease in business and take enough proactive measures to offset the dip. I said I appreciated his consideration, but that I have a responsibility to my customers, my team, my company, and our shareholders, and I hold myself fully responsible for an unacceptable performance.
Funny, when you have a healthy debate both people end up saying what they think the other person should have said.
Suppose my boss had led by telling me that I had a responsibility to my team and company, that I should've been more proactive, that I am fully responsible for my performance...how do you think that would've flown? Most employees would've responded defensively (even though he's right) and even though I would've agreed, I would've left thinking he was a dick. Instead I am more appreciative of his leadership than ever and don't want to let him down.
So, flight...there's an example of how to validate and set boundaries. My boss has to deliver the verbal warning, he can't keep me on the team indefinitely if I don't perform, he can't allow me to spew excuses and keep missing targets...but the best way to get that is to validate all of the things that contributed to me being in that spot.
Same way, when a WAS is talking about why they left, or why they cheated...while that isn't appropriate behavior, if we go right to attacking and condemning the behavior and trying to show them why they're wrong and we're right, nothing good comes out of it. Their defenses flare up, and we only help them dig in their heels. But if we can validate all of the reasons WHY they felt they had to leave, while still maintaining our boundaries and beliefs...THAT is the balance we should look for.
As to when to do which, when to truth dart, when to validate, etc...that is more complicated. But I'll tell you this- truth darting should be done sparingly...and I don't think it should be done at all until there has been a foundation of serious validating. You have to establish in their minds that you know their mind, you know their feelings, and you care...then maybe they'll give some respect to what you say, even if they don't like it initially.
So truth darting has to follow validation. And in order to validate you have to see past your side of the debate. That's very, very hard for us LBS's when we're in so much pain. But it is critical and why I harp so hard on this topic.
The thing is, validation is all about acknowledging the other person's point of view. That is it. The challenge for LBS's is we really don't. But we expect them to understand and agree with ours. Seek not to be understood, but to understand. Someone has to step up and lead the way. And what I've learned is that when people feel understood and acknowledged, they feel so grateful and appreciative of that they want to reciprocate.
Take an exchange I had last week between me and my manager. Now, he is a great manager, and I am a great employee.
The background needed: I am a star employee that hit my goals in 2015 in year 1 on the team
The topic: Me being given a verbal warning for missing January goals
My manager and I had a scheduled 1:1. He spent most of the time working with me on my game plan, helping where he could, probing me and challenging my plans in certain areas, getting involved in a few spots to assist, and giving me feedback on what my plan was. This was all done in a respectful way. Then at the end he brought up the verbal warning.
He did it almost apologetically. He started by telling me he understood how things had played out. He acknowledged that I had gone through a lot in Nov/Dec with custody battles and divorce, and that he knew that impacted me. He also understood that the entire market was challenged during seasonality, and that being in a longer sales cycle that operates on pipeline, these factors created a storm in which poor results were hard to avoid.
Before he could even get to the part where he held me accountable for my actions, I objected. I told him that we all have personal lives, but that I was a professional, and I make no excuses for my management of my assignment. I told him that while business slowed down, I didn't do my part to anticipate the decrease in business and take enough proactive measures to offset the dip. I said I appreciated his consideration, but that I have a responsibility to my customers, my team, my company, and our shareholders, and I hold myself fully responsible for an unacceptable performance.
Funny, when you have a healthy debate both people end up saying what they think the other person should have said.
Suppose my boss had led by telling me that I had a responsibility to my team and company, that I should've been more proactive, that I am fully responsible for my performance...how do you think that would've flown? Most employees would've responded defensively (even though he's right) and even though I would've agreed, I would've left thinking he was a dick. Instead I am more appreciative of his leadership than ever and don't want to let him down.
So, flight...there's an example of how to validate and set boundaries. My boss has to deliver the verbal warning, he can't keep me on the team indefinitely if I don't perform, he can't allow me to spew excuses and keep missing targets...but the best way to get that is to validate all of the things that contributed to me being in that spot.
Same way, when a WAS is talking about why they left, or why they cheated...while that isn't appropriate behavior, if we go right to attacking and condemning the behavior and trying to show them why they're wrong and we're right, nothing good comes out of it. Their defenses flare up, and we only help them dig in their heels. But if we can validate all of the reasons WHY they felt they had to leave, while still maintaining our boundaries and beliefs...THAT is the balance we should look for.
As to when to do which, when to truth dart, when to validate, etc...that is more complicated. But I'll tell you this- truth darting should be done sparingly...and I don't think it should be done at all until there has been a foundation of serious validating. You have to establish in their minds that you know their mind, you know their feelings, and you care...then maybe they'll give some respect to what you say, even if they don't like it initially.
So truth darting has to follow validation. And in order to validate you have to see past your side of the debate. That's very, very hard for us LBS's when we're in so much pain. But it is critical and why I harp so hard on this topic.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 08:46 PM
Julie,
This sounds like a very challenging exchange, but I don't think is necessarily all bad. In fact I kinda think the opposite.
Reconciliation is still on the table, for both of you by the sounds of it.
It is also interesting to me to see that your communication styles are so similar and you are both bringing alot of anger to the table.
I think to you both share a similar naivety about the counselling and reconciliation process being about negotiation of terms and conditions. I think you find that is more likely a mediation process.
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
If you can get some momentum happening out of this conversation that would be great.
I will be interested in Zues' comments. He has a much better handle on your sitch than I do. But those are my reflections Julie for what they are worth.
My good thoughts and love are with you Julie.
Jellyxxx
This sounds like a very challenging exchange, but I don't think is necessarily all bad. In fact I kinda think the opposite.
Reconciliation is still on the table, for both of you by the sounds of it.
It is also interesting to me to see that your communication styles are so similar and you are both bringing alot of anger to the table.
I think to you both share a similar naivety about the counselling and reconciliation process being about negotiation of terms and conditions. I think you find that is more likely a mediation process.
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
If you can get some momentum happening out of this conversation that would be great.
I will be interested in Zues' comments. He has a much better handle on your sitch than I do. But those are my reflections Julie for what they are worth.
My good thoughts and love are with you Julie.
Jellyxxx
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 08:46 PM
Julie, I have had the exact same fear with H - that he's pushing me to work full-time so he can dump me without having to pay as much alimony. I brought it up in counseling and he acted shocked. But he's a good actor...
I just watched a really good TED talk. Since we're not supposed to post links, look for Dan Gilbert talking about the Surprising Science of Happiness. It explains to me why the person who breaks out of a M, acts miserable.
I just watched a really good TED talk. Since we're not supposed to post links, look for Dan Gilbert talking about the Surprising Science of Happiness. It explains to me why the person who breaks out of a M, acts miserable.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 08:52 PM
Zues,
I have admitted to him multiple times that I should have told him before taking him to court. I did agree with that. He said that I could have said to him "give me the 17% or I will take you to court" and he would have given in. I admitted that would have worked better. But at the time I felt unable to confront him.
I should have said something like I understand how hard it was for you e categorized with all those deadbeats in court when you love the kids so much and do provide and I'm sorry it came to that. I had actually textEd him something like that a while ago at your suggestion.
Zues, do you think going on business trip Valentine's Day weekend is suspicious?
I have admitted to him multiple times that I should have told him before taking him to court. I did agree with that. He said that I could have said to him "give me the 17% or I will take you to court" and he would have given in. I admitted that would have worked better. But at the time I felt unable to confront him.
I should have said something like I understand how hard it was for you e categorized with all those deadbeats in court when you love the kids so much and do provide and I'm sorry it came to that. I had actually textEd him something like that a while ago at your suggestion.
Zues, do you think going on business trip Valentine's Day weekend is suspicious?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 09:09 PM
Painter, I will look that up now. What did you end up doing regarding work?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 09:20 PM
I am always suspicious of a walk away spouse...but I also live my life based on the information I have. There were 3 months I didn't know XW was wayward. I operated with the knowledge that she MIGHT be, but I behaved based on what I actually knew. I'll never regret doing that. Look, if he is in an affair and you find out it will cut your heart out regardless of how you find out. I'm more worried about what happens if he isn't but your fears destroy a family. So winding back to your question, I am not in the least bit worried about his trip. I doubt he's in an affair, and even if he is it shouldn't change your behavior.
As for being heard...I think you are agreeing with what he says, but missing the underlying need. When he says "I hate that you took me to court" or "if we're going to do everything by the law then...", while he is citing those specific instances, where is this anger and pain coming from?
I hear him saying "The legal system makes me feel very vulnerable and powerless. This system is set up to make decisions that will impact my life in so many ways, from parenting time, to finances...things that will impact my relationship with my kids, and whether I have any free time or I have to work a 2nd job...and the people making these decisions have formulas and social workers that don't care at all about what I want or need, or what I think is fair. I really hope we can avoid going down this road. Hopefully this means R, but if not, is there any way we can avoid inflicting this system on each other, and instead try to work things out nicely?"
And then I see you wielding the court systems around at him like it's a loaded gun, talking about getting a L right now, then explaining again and again why you had to do it and it's all his fault because if he didn't walk and/or did his part you wouldn't have to do this.
Validation fail.
The correct response would be: "H, I understand what you're saying. The idea of either of our futures laying in the hands of a soulless third party is truly frightening. And being the historically bread winner, I can see how violating it could feel to have someone bang a gavel and give you an unachievable mandate that would destroy the quality of your life, and then hanging jail time over your head if you don't keep up. I can imagine it would feel a bit like you're being enslaved, forced to work in the mines, and if you don't like it, too bad. Oh, and you don't get to see your kids anymore...Those are horrible things, and they do happen to a lot of men, and that is really distasteful. Tell you what. I want you to know I care about you. And whatever happens between us, I always will. Obviously if there is a permanent separation arrangements will have to be made, but I can promise you this...I promise that I am 100% committed to working those arrangements out together...so we EACH have a voice. I promise not to take any further action without warning and discussion, and without spending time to reflect on what you're telling me and understanding your priorities. I am open to involving a counselor again to help us with this if needed, I'd rather involve a counselor that helps preserve a good co-parenting relationship than a lawyer that destroys one. I am committed to doing everything in my power to make sure any outcome would leave you in a spot to where you have a good quality of life, with some free time, and some discretionary income to enjoy it. Finally I am also open to seeing if we can't, through improving our ability to hear and honor each other's voice, see if that relationship can one day extend beyond just co-parenting."
Is there anything I wrote you couldn't say?
See, when he talks about $200, he isn't talking about $200...he's talking about feeling powerless and violated and threatened and scared. Instead of explaining why 4 months this or 17% that...can't you just honor his underlying needs? If you do that, he'll calm down...and he'll be more able to understand your underlying needs, which is you want to know you can feed your kids. Then you calm each other down, come to some MUTUAL agreements...then start talking through IC about other contention areas, rinse/repeat with the same formula, cry a bit because you better understand how you hurt him and why he acted the way he did, he does the same, then you go to Retrouville, fall back in love, get through some tough piecing ups and downs, and in a year's time you're enjoying your first romantic getaway post R, and are in the marriage you always wanted.
Questions?
As for being heard...I think you are agreeing with what he says, but missing the underlying need. When he says "I hate that you took me to court" or "if we're going to do everything by the law then...", while he is citing those specific instances, where is this anger and pain coming from?
I hear him saying "The legal system makes me feel very vulnerable and powerless. This system is set up to make decisions that will impact my life in so many ways, from parenting time, to finances...things that will impact my relationship with my kids, and whether I have any free time or I have to work a 2nd job...and the people making these decisions have formulas and social workers that don't care at all about what I want or need, or what I think is fair. I really hope we can avoid going down this road. Hopefully this means R, but if not, is there any way we can avoid inflicting this system on each other, and instead try to work things out nicely?"
And then I see you wielding the court systems around at him like it's a loaded gun, talking about getting a L right now, then explaining again and again why you had to do it and it's all his fault because if he didn't walk and/or did his part you wouldn't have to do this.
Validation fail.
The correct response would be: "H, I understand what you're saying. The idea of either of our futures laying in the hands of a soulless third party is truly frightening. And being the historically bread winner, I can see how violating it could feel to have someone bang a gavel and give you an unachievable mandate that would destroy the quality of your life, and then hanging jail time over your head if you don't keep up. I can imagine it would feel a bit like you're being enslaved, forced to work in the mines, and if you don't like it, too bad. Oh, and you don't get to see your kids anymore...Those are horrible things, and they do happen to a lot of men, and that is really distasteful. Tell you what. I want you to know I care about you. And whatever happens between us, I always will. Obviously if there is a permanent separation arrangements will have to be made, but I can promise you this...I promise that I am 100% committed to working those arrangements out together...so we EACH have a voice. I promise not to take any further action without warning and discussion, and without spending time to reflect on what you're telling me and understanding your priorities. I am open to involving a counselor again to help us with this if needed, I'd rather involve a counselor that helps preserve a good co-parenting relationship than a lawyer that destroys one. I am committed to doing everything in my power to make sure any outcome would leave you in a spot to where you have a good quality of life, with some free time, and some discretionary income to enjoy it. Finally I am also open to seeing if we can't, through improving our ability to hear and honor each other's voice, see if that relationship can one day extend beyond just co-parenting."
Is there anything I wrote you couldn't say?
See, when he talks about $200, he isn't talking about $200...he's talking about feeling powerless and violated and threatened and scared. Instead of explaining why 4 months this or 17% that...can't you just honor his underlying needs? If you do that, he'll calm down...and he'll be more able to understand your underlying needs, which is you want to know you can feed your kids. Then you calm each other down, come to some MUTUAL agreements...then start talking through IC about other contention areas, rinse/repeat with the same formula, cry a bit because you better understand how you hurt him and why he acted the way he did, he does the same, then you go to Retrouville, fall back in love, get through some tough piecing ups and downs, and in a year's time you're enjoying your first romantic getaway post R, and are in the marriage you always wanted.
Questions?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 09:24 PM
Jellyb, we are horrible at communicating with each other. And we both interpret things so differently. Husband actually said he wanted to record or put things in writing because of that.
I agree with you though. I don't want reconciliation to be about negotiations and terms. That's kind of a doomed way to go about this. Reconcilation should not be about having demands met.
It should be about connecting and validating.
Our marriage counselor tried to get us to do "dialogues" it never worked when we were emotionally charged because we just resorted to our old ways.
I agree with you though. I don't want reconciliation to be about negotiations and terms. That's kind of a doomed way to go about this. Reconcilation should not be about having demands met.
It should be about connecting and validating.
Our marriage counselor tried to get us to do "dialogues" it never worked when we were emotionally charged because we just resorted to our old ways.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 09:27 PM
Your H does the same thing my H does - puts the cart before the horse and turns the blame around. *HE* could have supported his children voluntarily... Why should it be on you to give him an ultimatum, threatening legal action? Is he saying he has to be threatened to do the right thing? Sounds like he's venting his anger over being forced to do something he didn't want to do, and making it your fault that he financially deserted his family.
Now, on your side - if you want him to take the kids when you're sick, you're going to have to encourage him having them when you're well... You may enjoy your time alone more than you think.
When it comes to work - so far, I got a part-time job that gives me a small, but steady income. I also have a couple of other part-time income sources, but they are less predictable. Unfortunately, I have health issues that will make it harder for me to handle full-time employment, at least for now.
Now, on your side - if you want him to take the kids when you're sick, you're going to have to encourage him having them when you're well... You may enjoy your time alone more than you think.
When it comes to work - so far, I got a part-time job that gives me a small, but steady income. I also have a couple of other part-time income sources, but they are less predictable. Unfortunately, I have health issues that will make it harder for me to handle full-time employment, at least for now.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 09:41 PM
Julie, in the worst case scenario, are you in a good legal position to take care of yourself and your kids?
I sense a fear in you that H is trying to put you at a disadvantage finacially. That is a very valid fear. If you have your cards right, and keep them close to your heart, would you feel less fearful? Should that be the case, then you could do what you need to do to keep that fear at bay, so that you can work on the R with fewer reservations.
It will be good to have that in place before you investigate your doubts about the A. Because, even if you feel mentally prepared, a confirmation of your doubts will send you into a tailspin. And if your fears are true, have you thought about what you are going to do? You say that an A is a dealbreaker for you, but would you be so sure about your feelings once you start the D process rolling?
Just food for thought.
I sense a fear in you that H is trying to put you at a disadvantage finacially. That is a very valid fear. If you have your cards right, and keep them close to your heart, would you feel less fearful? Should that be the case, then you could do what you need to do to keep that fear at bay, so that you can work on the R with fewer reservations.
It will be good to have that in place before you investigate your doubts about the A. Because, even if you feel mentally prepared, a confirmation of your doubts will send you into a tailspin. And if your fears are true, have you thought about what you are going to do? You say that an A is a dealbreaker for you, but would you be so sure about your feelings once you start the D process rolling?
Just food for thought.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 10:19 PM
painter
Husband feels that he did provide for kids. He wanted me to give him itemized lists of what they needed. For example, shoes, car seat, clothes etc. he feels that there is no way that the kids actually need the court mandated percentage because we live with my parents and this makes him very angry.
My parents are very angry because they allowed us to move here for 1 year to save money. After the year he left and now they are forced to support us. They were not prepared to have their lifestyle permanently altered and now they cannot downsize.
(In the area I live in husbands child support payment would not even cover an illegal basement apartment in a decent school district)
Husband feels that he did provide for kids. He wanted me to give him itemized lists of what they needed. For example, shoes, car seat, clothes etc. he feels that there is no way that the kids actually need the court mandated percentage because we live with my parents and this makes him very angry.
My parents are very angry because they allowed us to move here for 1 year to save money. After the year he left and now they are forced to support us. They were not prepared to have their lifestyle permanently altered and now they cannot downsize.
(In the area I live in husbands child support payment would not even cover an illegal basement apartment in a decent school district)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 10:30 PM
Grlonfr,
For me, an affair is a dealbreaker. If there was an affair, Divorce would not be hard as for all purposes, we are already divorced just without the freedom to date others. If there was an affair, I am dysfunctional enough to move on and hate him for the rest of my life.
Yes, the cards for me have been lined up right but I struggle because thinking of the cards prevents me from doing what I want to do.
For me, an affair is a dealbreaker. If there was an affair, Divorce would not be hard as for all purposes, we are already divorced just without the freedom to date others. If there was an affair, I am dysfunctional enough to move on and hate him for the rest of my life.
Yes, the cards for me have been lined up right but I struggle because thinking of the cards prevents me from doing what I want to do.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/07/16 11:03 PM
Zues
"There is no way he'd be having this conversation if the idea of R wasn't there"
My husband actually said that a few talks ago.
When you said that courts make my husband feel vulnerable and powerless you are absolutely right. Because he expresses it with anger it is hard for me to see that. In the area that we live in, there is no way either of us will financially have a decent quality of life with divorce. We couldn't even do it together.
Husband is well aware of this and has to feel hopeless about our marriage for him to get to this point. I understand this but disagree. I resent that husband gave up but you are right. I will promise not to take action without discussion and warning and reflection.
Zues, why do you doubt that husband is in affair? Most say the signs are there. (Although my closest friend does say anyone else, yes with your husband I'm really not sure. She doesn't know about upcoming trip though)
"There is no way he'd be having this conversation if the idea of R wasn't there"
My husband actually said that a few talks ago.
When you said that courts make my husband feel vulnerable and powerless you are absolutely right. Because he expresses it with anger it is hard for me to see that. In the area that we live in, there is no way either of us will financially have a decent quality of life with divorce. We couldn't even do it together.
Husband is well aware of this and has to feel hopeless about our marriage for him to get to this point. I understand this but disagree. I resent that husband gave up but you are right. I will promise not to take action without discussion and warning and reflection.
Zues, why do you doubt that husband is in affair? Most say the signs are there. (Although my closest friend does say anyone else, yes with your husband I'm really not sure. She doesn't know about upcoming trip though)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 06:45 AM
Originally Posted By: JulieH
painter
Husband feels that he did provide for kids. He wanted me to give him itemized lists of what they needed. For example, shoes, car seat, clothes etc. he feels that there is no way that the kids actually need the court mandated percentage because we live with my parents and this makes him very angry.
My parents are very angry because they allowed us to move here for 1 year to save money. After the year he left and now they are forced to support us. They were not prepared to have their lifestyle permanently altered and now they cannot downsize.
(In the area I live in husbands child support payment would not even cover an illegal basement apartment in a decent school district)
Husband feels that he did provide for kids. He wanted me to give him itemized lists of what they needed. For example, shoes, car seat, clothes etc. he feels that there is no way that the kids actually need the court mandated percentage because we live with my parents and this makes him very angry.
My parents are very angry because they allowed us to move here for 1 year to save money. After the year he left and now they are forced to support us. They were not prepared to have their lifestyle permanently altered and now they cannot downsize.
(In the area I live in husbands child support payment would not even cover an illegal basement apartment in a decent school district)
His idea of you giving him a list is controlling and unreasonable. Should you give him a list of the food they need?
Your parents do not have a support obligation for his and your children, but he has. It is ignorant of him to think that they should support his children. He needs a reality check, and I guess you gave him one. It's a similar reality check I had to give my H, who thought I had no rights and should move out with my personal belongings and no support.
What happened with the savings?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:10 AM
Originally Posted By: JulieH
Grlonfr,
For me, an affair is a dealbreaker. If there was an affair, Divorce would not be hard as for all purposes, we are already divorced just without the freedom to date others. If there was an affair, I am dysfunctional enough to move on and hate him for the rest of my life.
Yes, the cards for me have been lined up right but I struggle because thinking of the cards prevents me from doing what I want to do.
For me, an affair is a dealbreaker. If there was an affair, Divorce would not be hard as for all purposes, we are already divorced just without the freedom to date others. If there was an affair, I am dysfunctional enough to move on and hate him for the rest of my life.
Yes, the cards for me have been lined up right but I struggle because thinking of the cards prevents me from doing what I want to do.
Julie, I love you for saying this, about the affair. I feel the same way if my H has a PA, although that doesn't seem to be the way for most DB'ers. I just know my limits and a PA would be it. But on the other hand, there is the very unsettling feeling that, for me at least, I may never know and I have to make my decisions based on that. I am choosing to believe him and I just know that if/when the fact of a PA comes to light I will walk away and everyone on here will be shaking their heads at my naivety.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:11 AM
This:
I will promise not to take action without discussion and warning and reflection.
Is a faint echo of what I wrote. It misses the point. It is making a statement, but it isn't recognizing and validating the underlying needs. You don't reference that part of it at all, the part I said was paramount, all you do is disagree and explain you can't do that because a nitpick with a part of the statement about quality of life. You're really fighting this one.
If quality of life will suffer, rewrite what I said in a way that you can agree with. Maybe something like "we can work together to minimize impact on our quality of life". But it involves recognizing what he is saying, showing him that by repeating it back to him in your own words, then honoring what he's saying by using collaborative language ('we', 'our').
I have also talked about using things you're angry at him about as a way to find your own wounds so you can slowly start healing. For example, the way you talk about him having an affair, and how angry you'd be...you seem pretty quick to accept this as 'the way you are' without digging in to see what is off. Oh, sure, everyone would be upset and angry about an affair, but NOT everyone would react the way you are (and the fixation on it). So this is a chance for you to try to explore where this is hurting you more than it hurts others, why you're sensitive there, work with IC to heal there, then whallah, find out that you can actually hear your H when you're not in burning pain all the time, and maybe you can be pleasant to live with too. Or you can just bury it and say "there's no issue here" and blame it on H for doing things that make you angry.
It's very ironic that I'm feeling completely unheard and dismissed when I'm writing pages about how to meet his need to heard. I feel like I'm literally telling you the words that you can say to save your M and you're dismissing the bulk of it, finding areas to nit pick, and refocusing on imaginary problems. The reason I doubt H is in an affair is because how he is telling you he feels matches almost perfectly only on a larger scale. I am over 18 months post BD and 2 months post D and have NO desire to date another woman for similar reasons to what your H said. Not all men cheat, after endless fighting and bickering I could see him valuing peace and quiet more than a fling.
Quote:
I will promise not to take action without discussion and warning and reflection.
Is a faint echo of what I wrote. It misses the point. It is making a statement, but it isn't recognizing and validating the underlying needs. You don't reference that part of it at all, the part I said was paramount, all you do is disagree and explain you can't do that because a nitpick with a part of the statement about quality of life. You're really fighting this one.
If quality of life will suffer, rewrite what I said in a way that you can agree with. Maybe something like "we can work together to minimize impact on our quality of life". But it involves recognizing what he is saying, showing him that by repeating it back to him in your own words, then honoring what he's saying by using collaborative language ('we', 'our').
I have also talked about using things you're angry at him about as a way to find your own wounds so you can slowly start healing. For example, the way you talk about him having an affair, and how angry you'd be...you seem pretty quick to accept this as 'the way you are' without digging in to see what is off. Oh, sure, everyone would be upset and angry about an affair, but NOT everyone would react the way you are (and the fixation on it). So this is a chance for you to try to explore where this is hurting you more than it hurts others, why you're sensitive there, work with IC to heal there, then whallah, find out that you can actually hear your H when you're not in burning pain all the time, and maybe you can be pleasant to live with too. Or you can just bury it and say "there's no issue here" and blame it on H for doing things that make you angry.
It's very ironic that I'm feeling completely unheard and dismissed when I'm writing pages about how to meet his need to heard. I feel like I'm literally telling you the words that you can say to save your M and you're dismissing the bulk of it, finding areas to nit pick, and refocusing on imaginary problems. The reason I doubt H is in an affair is because how he is telling you he feels matches almost perfectly only on a larger scale. I am over 18 months post BD and 2 months post D and have NO desire to date another woman for similar reasons to what your H said. Not all men cheat, after endless fighting and bickering I could see him valuing peace and quiet more than a fling.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:21 AM
To everyone else- If Julie's H were here we'd work with him. Yes, there are things he could do differently. No, he is not on top of his game. But the language y'all are talking is the language of war.
Labeling him as controlling.
Blaming him for the situation being escalated.
Getting worked up about the possibility that he is in an affair.
Are you all different usernames for Julie? This is like a lynch mob. Guys, Julie has a problem with not hearing her H and burying her wounds and allowing that to keep her very angry. Your comments being supportive and empathetic are not helping her save her marriage if you're reassuring her she is right and H is a jerk.
JellyB posted something that has been drowned out. Here's what she said again:
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
Sorry guys, I guess I'm starting to raise my voice. Time for Zues to go back to work on Zues. If what I've said still doesn't get through I'll remind myself this isn't my circus.
Labeling him as controlling.
Blaming him for the situation being escalated.
Getting worked up about the possibility that he is in an affair.
Are you all different usernames for Julie? This is like a lynch mob. Guys, Julie has a problem with not hearing her H and burying her wounds and allowing that to keep her very angry. Your comments being supportive and empathetic are not helping her save her marriage if you're reassuring her she is right and H is a jerk.
JellyB posted something that has been drowned out. Here's what she said again:
Quote:
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
Sorry guys, I guess I'm starting to raise my voice. Time for Zues to go back to work on Zues. If what I've said still doesn't get through I'll remind myself this isn't my circus.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:28 AM
Painter,
I agree with you when it comes to my family and support. That is where a lot of my anger is from. Because logically I an right and he is saying something is white when it is so black that everyone else sees it except for him. It frustrates me to no ends and makes me question his character and our ability to ever see eye to eye. I go over it a lot partially because I am questioning myself. Am I justified to this anger? Is there something I am overlooking that is making me be unfair to husband? Am I wrong? Am I getting played. Big time? I do try to see how does he present it so that I look like the unfair money grubber?
He kept his savings. I saved nothing because I was part time. He claims to have nothing in his bank accounts. This is the big question and why marriage counselor suggested he had gambling problem. It makes no sense unless he is hiding it. Also he took money out of IRA which I don't understand either. It cost him money to do so.
I had asked him to take the money he saved and put it in account for kids which neither of us could touch. Of course he declined. He said that for all these years I was able to save because he spent the majority of money. (Not true at all once I went to part time) he said he is not transparent with his budget because I was not with mine. (Also not true. In past he had all my passwords to accounts and i kept nothing from him financially) I have no problem showing him my budget. At court he listed that his car plus our insurance and gas costs him 1500 per month. Court didn't even bother to look at our expenses.
I agree with you when it comes to my family and support. That is where a lot of my anger is from. Because logically I an right and he is saying something is white when it is so black that everyone else sees it except for him. It frustrates me to no ends and makes me question his character and our ability to ever see eye to eye. I go over it a lot partially because I am questioning myself. Am I justified to this anger? Is there something I am overlooking that is making me be unfair to husband? Am I wrong? Am I getting played. Big time? I do try to see how does he present it so that I look like the unfair money grubber?
He kept his savings. I saved nothing because I was part time. He claims to have nothing in his bank accounts. This is the big question and why marriage counselor suggested he had gambling problem. It makes no sense unless he is hiding it. Also he took money out of IRA which I don't understand either. It cost him money to do so.
I had asked him to take the money he saved and put it in account for kids which neither of us could touch. Of course he declined. He said that for all these years I was able to save because he spent the majority of money. (Not true at all once I went to part time) he said he is not transparent with his budget because I was not with mine. (Also not true. In past he had all my passwords to accounts and i kept nothing from him financially) I have no problem showing him my budget. At court he listed that his car plus our insurance and gas costs him 1500 per month. Court didn't even bother to look at our expenses.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:59 AM
Zues, I am very afraid financially. I am afraid to make promises I can't keep when it comes to legal process. I have to look out in the best interests of the children for the rest of their lives. I am at conflict with what will protect me legally and what might work with husband. It would take a huge amount of trust for me to negotiate any type of settlement with husband. I would have to feel that he was looking at the kids best interests and I don't feel like his actions show that. I am very afraid of being taken advantage of because my family was.
There is another part of me that truly truly hopes more then anything that I have vilified him just as he has vilified me, and I believe that what you are saying is to stop villifying him, act with trust and compromise and he will live up to that trust. I did take not of your advice e and Wil reread before I meet with him and discuss any type of legal process. What you are saying is pretty on board with coach advise and ultimately what is necessary for reconciliation. I get it and do appreciate it.
I am starting to hear that he is confused. During our conversation, he said to me that I am highly emotional. That he too can change his mind and speak out of emotions, which is why he told me he wanted to move on and then said he didnt mean that. Deep down I don't think he wants this. I don't either. We just don't know how to separate out our hurt and resentment. We also have trouble commmunicating. Also when he talks to me he often talks with anger and harsh tones, yelling and it puts me on defensive. When I stop to filter out words there might be positive signs but I often get side tracked by the yelling. I get supercritical as well and will focus on negative.
I get caught up between being right and winning the battle vs winning peace.
There is another part of me that truly truly hopes more then anything that I have vilified him just as he has vilified me, and I believe that what you are saying is to stop villifying him, act with trust and compromise and he will live up to that trust. I did take not of your advice e and Wil reread before I meet with him and discuss any type of legal process. What you are saying is pretty on board with coach advise and ultimately what is necessary for reconciliation. I get it and do appreciate it.
I am starting to hear that he is confused. During our conversation, he said to me that I am highly emotional. That he too can change his mind and speak out of emotions, which is why he told me he wanted to move on and then said he didnt mean that. Deep down I don't think he wants this. I don't either. We just don't know how to separate out our hurt and resentment. We also have trouble commmunicating. Also when he talks to me he often talks with anger and harsh tones, yelling and it puts me on defensive. When I stop to filter out words there might be positive signs but I often get side tracked by the yelling. I get supercritical as well and will focus on negative.
I get caught up between being right and winning the battle vs winning peace.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 08:01 AM
Note of your advice (instead of not)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: JellyB
Julie,
This sounds like a very challenging exchange, but I don't think is necessarily all bad. In fact I kinda think the opposite.
Reconciliation is still on the table, for both of you by the sounds of it.
It is also interesting to me to see that your communication styles are so similar and you are both bringing alot of anger to the table.
I think to you both share a similar naivety about the counselling and reconciliation process being about negotiation of terms and conditions. I think you find that is more likely a mediation process.
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
If you can get some momentum happening out of this conversation that would be great.
I will be interested in Zues' comments. He has a much better handle on your sitch than I do. But those are my reflections Julie for what they are worth.
My good thoughts and love are with you Julie.
Jellyxxx
This sounds like a very challenging exchange, but I don't think is necessarily all bad. In fact I kinda think the opposite.
Reconciliation is still on the table, for both of you by the sounds of it.
It is also interesting to me to see that your communication styles are so similar and you are both bringing alot of anger to the table.
I think to you both share a similar naivety about the counselling and reconciliation process being about negotiation of terms and conditions. I think you find that is more likely a mediation process.
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
If you can get some momentum happening out of this conversation that would be great.
I will be interested in Zues' comments. He has a much better handle on your sitch than I do. But those are my reflections Julie for what they are worth.
My good thoughts and love are with you Julie.
Jellyxxx
I am rereading all of the posts right now and Thank you. When I read "it is interesting to see your communication styles are so similar" I stopped and laughed. You are right!! I am just as dysfunctional with communicating as he is.
When I listened to him and hearing the things he is angry about with me, I kept thinking to myself the anger you feel for me is just way too out of proportion. You keep hanging on to this anger and it is not helping. I am not a horrible villain, just someone who made decisions impulsively and said things to you because I was hurt. You need to let this go. all you are doing is rehashing and coming up with things to be angry at. Etc
I realized it is very similar to me with my anger torwards him.
we keep repeating the same horrible ways of dealing with things over and over. This is no different then when we were together. Just a different topic.
I am getting better at keeping my mouth shut. What I needed to do was let him get off phone or remove myself from phone conversation "this is getting too emotional lets talk when we cool down so no ones feeling get hurt". I never remember to do that in the heat of things.
I never remember to validate in the heat of things either.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:18 PM
Quote:
When I listened to him and hearing the things he is angry about with me, I kept thinking to myself the anger you feel for me is just way too out of proportion. You keep hanging on to this anger and it is not helping. I am not a horrible villain, just someone who made decisions impulsively and said things to you because I was hurt. You need to let this go. all you are doing is rehashing and coming up with things to be angry at. Etc
I realized it is very similar to me with my anger torwards him.
I realized it is very similar to me with my anger torwards him.
Awesome insight Julie. Good job.
Quote:
I never remember to validate in the heat of things either.
I don't think validation is a technique you should try to remember. I think it is the natural outcome of understanding your partner. If you can 'forget', this just means you haven't really understood his point of view. Because if you did, you wouldn't lose sight of it.
There was a story I never forgot about the dad with 3 kids riding home on a bus one day. The dad was quietly looking out the window. The kids were running up and down the aisles, running into other passengers, causing a ruckus. The dad did nothing to stop them and was just not attentive. As the kids grew more wild, the passengers on the bus started exchanging glances at each other, rolling their eyes, shaking their heads. Finally, one passenger decided he needed to address it. He tried to be polite but it was clear he was irritated. He walked up to the dad and said "excuse me, but if you haven't noticed your children have been behaving a bit inappropriately and it's bothering some of the passengers. Would you mind talking to them about it?" The dad turned slowly and said in a monotone voice, "I'm so sorry, I hadn't noticed. It's been a hard day. We are on our way back from their mother's funeral and I guess none of us really know how to handle it."
I read that over 10 years ago and it stuck with me. I believe it was from the 7 habits of highly effective people, but the point was about paradigm shift. How we see things a certain way, and how that can shift entirely. Once it shifts, it doesn't just shift back.
So once you truly hear what your H is saying, you won't need to remember to validate, any more than the passenger on the bus would need to try to remember to be patient with the dad the remainder of the trip home.
I'm not trying to beat this to death, but rather than trying to remember to act like you're hearing him, keep working on doing what you did above and actually get to know who he is inside and why he is doing what he is doing.
Proud of you J.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
To everyone else- If Julie's H were here we'd work with him. Yes, there are things he could do differently. No, he is not on top of his game. But the language y'all are talking is the language of war.
Labeling him as controlling.
Blaming him for the situation being escalated.
Getting worked up about the possibility that he is in an affair.
Labeling him as controlling.
Blaming him for the situation being escalated.
Getting worked up about the possibility that he is in an affair.
Just want to ask you to reread what I actually wrote. I did not label him as controlling - I said one notion he has, is controlling and unreasonable. It is obvious that children's needs do not consist of a list of specific big ticket items that only need to be purchased a few times. It is their daily needs that need to be met, and her H is acting very irresponsibly towards his family.
He may have feelings towards Julie and towards the idea of a family that make him act that way, but the kids are not to suffer for a grown man's feelings and notions. Sorry, not very sympathetic to his behavior in that respect.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 08:16 PM
Julie, your sitch is very similar to mine, and your H to my xh.
The finances were always an issue btw us. His mother instilled in him a fear that I was the money grabber. Our D negotiations went through without having to go to court but it was to my disadvantage because by then I was a really broken person and I didn't want to fight any more. So that was why I asked you the question that I did.
Our communication style is very combative as well. It still is and he asks me why we are still fighting months after the D. ( Duh, he spews and I cry but that to him is combative)
However, when I compare your H to my xh, I see signs that your H is not as angry as my xh. He is angry but he doesnt spew. Amidst his anger and his need for self- protection, there seems to be this wish to work things out. And Julie, you came to this board much earlier than I did and you seem like you're figuring things out.
It is not easy to separate the terms and conditions of a D from your efforts to reconcile. For the sake of reconciliation, you will have to.
I can tell you that it was my inability to do so that was a big hindrance in my reconciliation, among other things. He wasn't a saint though and he took advantage of me. But it was my inability to compartmentalise and to let go of the anger that disadvantaged me. Because I was so angry and hurt, I had a few missteps and couldn't see the whole situation clearly.
Julie, at a certain point in time, you need to let go of the fear and anger, or at least compartmemtalise them, so that you can do the best for yourself and kids.
The hurt will always be there. But you have a fighting chance now, and to up your odds, you need to put it away, at least temporarily. Letting go of the hurt doesnt mean that your H is right and is no longer a douche. It's just a break for yourself to stop feeling on edge so much.
The finances were always an issue btw us. His mother instilled in him a fear that I was the money grabber. Our D negotiations went through without having to go to court but it was to my disadvantage because by then I was a really broken person and I didn't want to fight any more. So that was why I asked you the question that I did.
Our communication style is very combative as well. It still is and he asks me why we are still fighting months after the D. ( Duh, he spews and I cry but that to him is combative)
However, when I compare your H to my xh, I see signs that your H is not as angry as my xh. He is angry but he doesnt spew. Amidst his anger and his need for self- protection, there seems to be this wish to work things out. And Julie, you came to this board much earlier than I did and you seem like you're figuring things out.
It is not easy to separate the terms and conditions of a D from your efforts to reconcile. For the sake of reconciliation, you will have to.
I can tell you that it was my inability to do so that was a big hindrance in my reconciliation, among other things. He wasn't a saint though and he took advantage of me. But it was my inability to compartmentalise and to let go of the anger that disadvantaged me. Because I was so angry and hurt, I had a few missteps and couldn't see the whole situation clearly.
Julie, at a certain point in time, you need to let go of the fear and anger, or at least compartmemtalise them, so that you can do the best for yourself and kids.
The hurt will always be there. But you have a fighting chance now, and to up your odds, you need to put it away, at least temporarily. Letting go of the hurt doesnt mean that your H is right and is no longer a douche. It's just a break for yourself to stop feeling on edge so much.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/08/16 09:32 PM
You're right Painter. He has a responsibility to provide for his children, and if he isn't willing to, she can't allow them to suffer because she is afraid of hurting his feelings. Strong boundaries and bold action are needed.
My main point is that it doesn't have to be either doormat or combative. It can be collaborative.
This gives me pause. I'm not sure that taking unilateral legal action, threatening to do so, or dropping ultimatums is a constructive response. If Julie does this, even if she's right to protect her children's needs, she's wrong in how she handles the approach.
Her and her husband are not as far apart as they seem. They both want to be able to provide for themselves, they both want each other to be ok, and they both want the children to be taken care of. Those are the main priorities, and they are mutual. Why not start from there and build on it?
Sure, each of them have different ideas on what that looks like, they each have different fears about how those differences might impact them. All the more reason to deescalate, move slowly, and try to establish communication in which those similarities are recognized, the fears are voiced, validated by both parties, and they work together to find solutions that are ok to both of them. I'm guessing they can't do it alone, so a counselor or mediator is a great idea. I agree this is hard stuff, but this is also a great chance to show that she can manage through this maturely.
I am divorced, and I know firsthand how scary it can be. There was also at one point a severe distrust for XW, she did some things that were deceptive and extremely low trust. I get the conflict between "I want this to work" and "If it doesn't I don't want to be the one that gets screwed". In the end I truly believe there are ways to protect yourself without being confrontational or adversarial.
For me, I got a lawyer, an IC, and a DB coach. I took no action that didn't involve the approval of all three. As a result I never lost any sleep over whether I was too firm or too weak. I followed the lead of experts that had seen this thousands of times. And I made it clear that my priorities were R if possible, good co-parenting relationship if not, all while ensuring that BOTH me and XW would be ok and have a good relationship with our children. As it turns out we didn't R, but we do co-parent alright, and we are both going to be ok. I had many opportunities that I could've escalated things, but I'm glad I didn't.
The last thought of my ramble has to do with recovering from an affair. I was thinking about this earlier. The betrayed party feels tremendously insecure and needy, and as a result can overwhelm the affair-haver with constant questions and demands for reassurance. They FEEL needy, and they WANT reassurance. They think that because the affair that caused their feelings was such an injury to them, their sole job should be to not leave, and their partner should be responsible for proving an endless amount of reassurance whenever they want it. That is not the case. It's not enough for the betrayed to stay. They have to stay AND manage their neediness for reassurance. They can express those needs at appropriate times, and it's fair for the betrayer to know those needs exist and make it a priority. But just because they betrayed doesn't mean it's all on them to make the recovery work.
I bring this up because just because one party is wrong and generates hurt in the other party, doesn't mean they are free of responsibility for working through that hurt and responding maturely. Julie is here, WAH is not. Trust me...if he were here, I'd have a thing or two to tell him about what he's putting Julie through!
Thanks for talking about it Painter. One thing is for sure. She should never let fear interfere with her taking bold action to preserve herself or her family.
My main point is that it doesn't have to be either doormat or combative. It can be collaborative.
Quote:
Your H does the same thing my H does - puts the cart before the horse and turns the blame around. *HE* could have supported his children voluntarily... Why should it be on you to give him an ultimatum, threatening legal action? Is he saying he has to be threatened to do the right thing? Sounds like he's venting his anger over being forced to do something he didn't want to do, and making it your fault that he financially deserted his family.
This gives me pause. I'm not sure that taking unilateral legal action, threatening to do so, or dropping ultimatums is a constructive response. If Julie does this, even if she's right to protect her children's needs, she's wrong in how she handles the approach.
Her and her husband are not as far apart as they seem. They both want to be able to provide for themselves, they both want each other to be ok, and they both want the children to be taken care of. Those are the main priorities, and they are mutual. Why not start from there and build on it?
Sure, each of them have different ideas on what that looks like, they each have different fears about how those differences might impact them. All the more reason to deescalate, move slowly, and try to establish communication in which those similarities are recognized, the fears are voiced, validated by both parties, and they work together to find solutions that are ok to both of them. I'm guessing they can't do it alone, so a counselor or mediator is a great idea. I agree this is hard stuff, but this is also a great chance to show that she can manage through this maturely.
I am divorced, and I know firsthand how scary it can be. There was also at one point a severe distrust for XW, she did some things that were deceptive and extremely low trust. I get the conflict between "I want this to work" and "If it doesn't I don't want to be the one that gets screwed". In the end I truly believe there are ways to protect yourself without being confrontational or adversarial.
For me, I got a lawyer, an IC, and a DB coach. I took no action that didn't involve the approval of all three. As a result I never lost any sleep over whether I was too firm or too weak. I followed the lead of experts that had seen this thousands of times. And I made it clear that my priorities were R if possible, good co-parenting relationship if not, all while ensuring that BOTH me and XW would be ok and have a good relationship with our children. As it turns out we didn't R, but we do co-parent alright, and we are both going to be ok. I had many opportunities that I could've escalated things, but I'm glad I didn't.
The last thought of my ramble has to do with recovering from an affair. I was thinking about this earlier. The betrayed party feels tremendously insecure and needy, and as a result can overwhelm the affair-haver with constant questions and demands for reassurance. They FEEL needy, and they WANT reassurance. They think that because the affair that caused their feelings was such an injury to them, their sole job should be to not leave, and their partner should be responsible for proving an endless amount of reassurance whenever they want it. That is not the case. It's not enough for the betrayed to stay. They have to stay AND manage their neediness for reassurance. They can express those needs at appropriate times, and it's fair for the betrayer to know those needs exist and make it a priority. But just because they betrayed doesn't mean it's all on them to make the recovery work.
I bring this up because just because one party is wrong and generates hurt in the other party, doesn't mean they are free of responsibility for working through that hurt and responding maturely. Julie is here, WAH is not. Trust me...if he were here, I'd have a thing or two to tell him about what he's putting Julie through!
Thanks for talking about it Painter. One thing is for sure. She should never let fear interfere with her taking bold action to preserve herself or her family.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 06:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Quote:
Your H does the same thing my H does - puts the cart before the horse and turns the blame around. *HE* could have supported his children voluntarily... Why should it be on you to give him an ultimatum, threatening legal action? Is he saying he has to be threatened to do the right thing? Sounds like he's venting his anger over being forced to do something he didn't want to do, and making it your fault that he financially deserted his family.
This gives me pause. I'm not sure that taking unilateral legal action, threatening to do so, or dropping ultimatums is a constructive response. If Julie does this, even if she's right to protect her children's needs, she's wrong in how she handles the approach.
There's a lot of info in this thread about the interaction between Julie and her H, so just wanted to clarify that my statements above were in response to her posting this:
"I have admitted to him multiple times that I should have told him before taking him to court. I did agree with that. He said that I could have said to him "give me the 17% or I will take you to court" and he would have given in. I admitted that would have worked better. But at the time I felt unable to confront him."
So I think we agree?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 07:46 AM
Oh, I see what you're saying. Funny, when I read that I laughed. When her WAH said 'why didn't you give me this ultimatum' I almost commented on it. Had she actually dropped an ultimatum like this it would've gotten very ugly, as this clearly hits his exposed nerves of powerlessness. Just goes to show believe none of what they say.
But now I get what you mean. She shouldn't have to say anything for him to provide for his family. That is true. Just like it is true that things don't always work they way they should, and we should do our best to handle that.
Thanks for explaining P.
But now I get what you mean. She shouldn't have to say anything for him to provide for his family. That is true. Just like it is true that things don't always work they way they should, and we should do our best to handle that.
Thanks for explaining P.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:14 AM
Hi
Injust skimmed through the posts so have to read more thoroughly. Yes giving him an ultimatum would have been ridiculous. I had approached him with child support twice and it led to huge fights. I needed to be more clear with it though. Coach had helped me write a letter asking for it. But I never sent it. At that point I felt it was delayed too long, he told me reconciliation was not possible and I just wanted to move forward with it so I took him to court just so I couldn't delay it anymore.
He doesn't see it as him neglecting kids financial needs. He feels that he paid for camp, shoes, some clothes, and would have given me money spent on them with receipts. He feels that the money court mandates is more then I need to cover their expenses.
This is kind of true, but only because we live with my parents. If I had my own place, CS would not be enough. The major issue is that my parents should not have to be the ones supporting us. (I have been giving them rent, but I am sure they are not going to keep it. It will probably be given to my kids at some point) husband cannot separate this in his mind.
It is weird. I think it's because his mother has always enabled everyone so he expects that type of unconditional support from grandparents. I notice that with comments he has made "let your parents babysit them for once" or getting angry when my parents would not make themselves 100% convenient to his needs.
He was also angry because he paid for a car seat to put in my parents car. They lent their car to my brother for one day because my brother needed a car seat to take baby to doctor. It just so happened that day my car wouldn't start. Husband was furious that the spare car wasn't around. This logic makes no sense to me. (I wonder if it's an only child way of thinking but i get angry because he is angry)
This is why I am constantly writing about our arguments and things he gets mad at and my anger and frusturation. I can't justify or find logic in how he is thinking or his demands. I really try to see his point. I try to explain my point. I see white he sees black.
Injust skimmed through the posts so have to read more thoroughly. Yes giving him an ultimatum would have been ridiculous. I had approached him with child support twice and it led to huge fights. I needed to be more clear with it though. Coach had helped me write a letter asking for it. But I never sent it. At that point I felt it was delayed too long, he told me reconciliation was not possible and I just wanted to move forward with it so I took him to court just so I couldn't delay it anymore.
He doesn't see it as him neglecting kids financial needs. He feels that he paid for camp, shoes, some clothes, and would have given me money spent on them with receipts. He feels that the money court mandates is more then I need to cover their expenses.
This is kind of true, but only because we live with my parents. If I had my own place, CS would not be enough. The major issue is that my parents should not have to be the ones supporting us. (I have been giving them rent, but I am sure they are not going to keep it. It will probably be given to my kids at some point) husband cannot separate this in his mind.
It is weird. I think it's because his mother has always enabled everyone so he expects that type of unconditional support from grandparents. I notice that with comments he has made "let your parents babysit them for once" or getting angry when my parents would not make themselves 100% convenient to his needs.
He was also angry because he paid for a car seat to put in my parents car. They lent their car to my brother for one day because my brother needed a car seat to take baby to doctor. It just so happened that day my car wouldn't start. Husband was furious that the spare car wasn't around. This logic makes no sense to me. (I wonder if it's an only child way of thinking but i get angry because he is angry)
This is why I am constantly writing about our arguments and things he gets mad at and my anger and frusturation. I can't justify or find logic in how he is thinking or his demands. I really try to see his point. I try to explain my point. I see white he sees black.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:18 AM
When you debate about money and H says you don't need as much because you live at your parents...does he believe you should live with your parents for the next 15 years?
I am asking that literally. What is his vision for the future? Does he understand that you will move out at some point? Or does he think that's a permanent solution?
I am asking that literally. What is his vision for the future? Does he understand that you will move out at some point? Or does he think that's a permanent solution?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 10:40 AM
He wants me to return to work full time and feels that with that added income I could afford my own apartment. This can be done. But we would be not able to afford an area with a good school district. It would also require additional expense of child care. (He assumes grandparents will babysit free while I work) I Would see the kids a lot less because my job requires some evening hours.
In counseling, he would tell me I should switch jobs and even professions. (I went to school a long time to do what I do. I have a license and a skill set and i enjoy it) because he felt salary was not high enough. My salary is decent, but not for the area we live in. Any other state not in the surrounding area I would be fine. I have absolutely no other skill set, so his demands were unreasonable and frusturating,
my income full time combined with child support would leave me with less then his income full time and my part time income combined. When we had that combination the argument was that we could not afford to live and save, which is why we moved in with my parents for a year.
I am in all honesty, very confused by his budget and I have been for a long time. He has not been transparent with me. I know he earns a decent salary. I know that he has no real debt. I don't know why he has nothing saved. I don't understand why he says we cannot afford a place unless I return to work full time. It does not make sense numerically.
In counseling, he would tell me I should switch jobs and even professions. (I went to school a long time to do what I do. I have a license and a skill set and i enjoy it) because he felt salary was not high enough. My salary is decent, but not for the area we live in. Any other state not in the surrounding area I would be fine. I have absolutely no other skill set, so his demands were unreasonable and frusturating,
my income full time combined with child support would leave me with less then his income full time and my part time income combined. When we had that combination the argument was that we could not afford to live and save, which is why we moved in with my parents for a year.
I am in all honesty, very confused by his budget and I have been for a long time. He has not been transparent with me. I know he earns a decent salary. I know that he has no real debt. I don't know why he has nothing saved. I don't understand why he says we cannot afford a place unless I return to work full time. It does not make sense numerically.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 10:50 AM
When he brought all this up it was actually at a time where my return to work full time made absolute no sense logistically before kids went to school full time.
Now, I can pick up extra hours if available and have been doing it. But am not willing to leave my job where I have great benefits despite being only part time. Needing to keep this job makes it hard to pick up hours else where because it interferes with when kids are not at school..
Now, I can pick up extra hours if available and have been doing it. But am not willing to leave my job where I have great benefits despite being only part time. Needing to keep this job makes it hard to pick up hours else where because it interferes with when kids are not at school..
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 06:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Grlonfr
It is not easy to separate the terms and conditions of a D from your efforts to reconcile. For the sake of reconciliation, you will have to.
i know. The two are such extremes, I don't understand this at all! From what I understand he wants to explore both? It's interesting. When I explained the situation to husband as "just like you don't like the financial aspect of this, I don't like the physical loss of the kids. But that's the downside of divorce. This is the outcome and losses. You lose money I lose kids.m It kind of broke him out of the spewing. He said he didn't like losing time with kids either
I can tell you that it was my inability to do so that was a big hindrance in my reconciliation, among other things. He wasn't a saint though and he took advantage of me. But it was my inability to compartmentalise and to let go of the anger that disadvantaged me. Because I was so angry and hurt, I had a few missteps and couldn't see the whole situation clearly.
i am not familiar with your situation. What happened? Did courts not treat you fairly? Did you agree to things that you wish you did not? I have been very cautious regarding what I say to husband. I have no knowledge of affair though and could totally understand how that emotional aspect would make anyone have missteps. Even without knowledge of affair I run these little soliloquies in my mind that would do justice to a Disney villainess.
Julie, at a certain point in time, you need to let go of the fear and anger, or at least compartmemtalise them, so that you can do the best for yourself and kids.
Thank you
This has Definatly been my plight.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
, as this clearly hits his exposed nerves of powerlessness.
How is he the one without power when he is the one that left? He has the power to choose whether he wants reconciliation or to move on. I am the one without the power.
Any insight as to Why does he keep saying I kicked him out?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 07:34 PM
Julie, just checking in on your thread and following with interest. I have no insight. Just support and best wishes.
Sorry for the interruption......please continue.....
Sorry for the interruption......please continue.....
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: JulieH
Originally Posted By: Zues126
, as this clearly hits his exposed nerves of powerlessness.
How is he the one without power when he is the one that left? He has the power to choose whether he wants reconciliation or to move on. I am the one without the power.
Any insight as to Why does he keep saying I kicked him out?
the only thing i can think of is how i think back to some things W would say to me about how she can't make me happy. This is when she was telling me how she wanted to be done and i was still begging and pleading.
it is their way to change things to where they are not making this decision but forced to. it makes them feel ok with it.
another example is the day before she moved out and I discovered the amounts i should give her in support are different than what we thought. I told her I can't give more than I am supposed to and she said she planned on that money and needs to, I said i know it is hard but i didn't want this and to is her decision , so she immediately said you're right but there are plenty of reasons, just like this. Meaning how i wouldn't just give in to her.
they need to validate themselves however they can
I think you should stand up to that and make it a boundary he can not say to you anymore
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 07:58 PM
Otw... It is another incident of its black to me and he says white. He could be in denial, he could be gaslighting, he could be saying it cause a lawyer told him to.
Stupid question I guess.
How would I stand up to that and make it a boundary?
Fo...thanks always for your support, humor and honesty (even when it's brutal and doesn't put one in the best light...cause I love knowing I am not the only one out there)
Stupid question I guess.
How would I stand up to that and make it a boundary?
Fo...thanks always for your support, humor and honesty (even when it's brutal and doesn't put one in the best light...cause I love knowing I am not the only one out there)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:02 PM
i am not sure the situation on how he left. I can go back and look into. but how did he end up leaving?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:28 PM
Hi Julie. I know this thread exists We're just having such a good dialogue over on Jim's that I hadn't made it here yet. I'm going to get caught up when I get a chance. You have very thoughtful and insightful questions. Really curious to see how you're doing.
We're just having such a good dialogue over on Jim's that I hadn't made it here yet. I'm going to get caught up when I get a chance. You have very thoughtful and insightful questions. Really curious to see how you're doing.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:29 PM
We had not been getting along for a while. He was asking for space and I was pursuing and pushing for relationship talks. I made a inappropriate and passive agressive comment to him that definatly hit a sensitive spot about how he was not spending time with kids. It made him furious. That night he told me he needed to leave. I said fine. He was all happy and really nice about things and then 20 min later I begged him not to leave and showed him all these articles about why physical separation was the worst thing to do.
A few weeks later he left. He had initially told me the goal was reconciliation. I did pursue in beginning and did things that made it worse.
A few weeks later he left. He had initially told me the goal was reconciliation. I did pursue in beginning and did things that made it worse.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:30 PM
He was also looking for reasons to leave and get angry at and he really was neglecting his family prior.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:40 PM
ok, so knowing you did not actually ask him to leave that makes this boundary fairly easy.
You need to state the next time that he says this something along the lines of " i need to make something clear, i never asked or forced you to leave. I understand you may have felt you had no choice, and i know that must have been difficult, but I did not make you leave or ask you to. Please do not represent that to me or others.
I know a boundary has a consequence, but I am not sure what consequence you connect to that.
I could be off, but i have seen it come a few times on your thread so I know it bothers you
You need to state the next time that he says this something along the lines of " i need to make something clear, i never asked or forced you to leave. I understand you may have felt you had no choice, and i know that must have been difficult, but I did not make you leave or ask you to. Please do not represent that to me or others.
I know a boundary has a consequence, but I am not sure what consequence you connect to that.
I could be off, but i have seen it come a few times on your thread so I know it bothers you
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:45 PM
Hey Julie. Proud of you for soldiering on.
In a lot of ways you are both powerless. Neither of you are in control of everything here. Neither can control each other. Neither can wave a wand and make the relationship work the way either of you want. Neither can separate and avoid some of the hard consequences of D.
I think H feels powerless because he can't change you and get you to be the partner he feels he needs (right or wrong), he is at the mercy of the courts as to his future life, ultimately he is faced with either being in a marriage where he feels unfulfilled and undermined, or he is single again only without the freedom and youth he once had and instead with chains around him forcing him to work hard for the rest of his life for a family he feels evicted from.
Why does he feel he was kicked out? I don't think he means physically Julie. I think he means he was edged out of the family and felt unwanted and rejected. I'm just speculating now, but I'd imagine that it was you and the children, and he felt left out and neglected, and finally just felt he didn't have a place with you anymore, that he was supposed to be the head of the house, and instead he was dead weight good for nothing more than to power the finances. Another reason he is sensitive about the child support, he interprets this as proof this is all he is good for is a paycheck.
I think professional help is required here. I know that my XW was truly out of touch with the reality of how things would work out post D. I am GLAD we used lawyers and mediators, because if it was between me and her I would've been the bad guy, but since she had experienced representation counseling her people other than me finally started talking some sense into her. At the same time, she had valid points and there were areas that I needed to flex. Bottom line, when both people have representation, or there is a counselor making sure both parties have a voice, people feel heard, and they feel more safe as they learn their options.
What professionals do you have helping the two of you through this? Can you get help?
Remember J, no matter what happens, your kids will eat. My promise. If the day comes I need to ship you some ramen noodles let me know. We're a family on DB for sure.
In a lot of ways you are both powerless. Neither of you are in control of everything here. Neither can control each other. Neither can wave a wand and make the relationship work the way either of you want. Neither can separate and avoid some of the hard consequences of D.
I think H feels powerless because he can't change you and get you to be the partner he feels he needs (right or wrong), he is at the mercy of the courts as to his future life, ultimately he is faced with either being in a marriage where he feels unfulfilled and undermined, or he is single again only without the freedom and youth he once had and instead with chains around him forcing him to work hard for the rest of his life for a family he feels evicted from.
Why does he feel he was kicked out? I don't think he means physically Julie. I think he means he was edged out of the family and felt unwanted and rejected. I'm just speculating now, but I'd imagine that it was you and the children, and he felt left out and neglected, and finally just felt he didn't have a place with you anymore, that he was supposed to be the head of the house, and instead he was dead weight good for nothing more than to power the finances. Another reason he is sensitive about the child support, he interprets this as proof this is all he is good for is a paycheck.
I think professional help is required here. I know that my XW was truly out of touch with the reality of how things would work out post D. I am GLAD we used lawyers and mediators, because if it was between me and her I would've been the bad guy, but since she had experienced representation counseling her people other than me finally started talking some sense into her. At the same time, she had valid points and there were areas that I needed to flex. Bottom line, when both people have representation, or there is a counselor making sure both parties have a voice, people feel heard, and they feel more safe as they learn their options.
What professionals do you have helping the two of you through this? Can you get help?
Remember J, no matter what happens, your kids will eat. My promise. If the day comes I need to ship you some ramen noodles let me know. We're a family on DB for sure.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 08:55 PM
zeus
great view of why he may think she made him leave.
I know my w thinks i made this happen.
My only issue is we are responsible for taking action for ourselves. Ad if we think our only action is to quit and run, well that isn't right in my eyes on relationships.
great view of why he may think she made him leave.
I know my w thinks i made this happen.
My only issue is we are responsible for taking action for ourselves. Ad if we think our only action is to quit and run, well that isn't right in my eyes on relationships.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 09:25 PM
Otw...that is a brilliant response. It is accurate and is worded respectfully Thank you.
Zues... We do not have professional help. I had asked husband about counseling in beginning and he declined. This would probably not be the case now. He would be open to at least family counseling for kids, and MC counseling if we agree to pursue R.
I had talked with attorney and was advised to enter litigation and not to mediate because he felt My situation had been set up to put me at disadvantage. He also said he felt like I would be walked over in mediation..or something like that. he did say if there was any chance of reconciliation to get MC because there would be no chance once this went through the courts. That it will get ugly. He felt like the case was very easy. (I don't believe he is an attorney that really needs my business either) where I live legal fees are prorated. So husband I am sure does not want to go this route. Husband would be concerned over my current salary for this reason as well.
I am hoping he wants reconciliation. That is my desire and it's very known.
Zues... We do not have professional help. I had asked husband about counseling in beginning and he declined. This would probably not be the case now. He would be open to at least family counseling for kids, and MC counseling if we agree to pursue R.
I had talked with attorney and was advised to enter litigation and not to mediate because he felt My situation had been set up to put me at disadvantage. He also said he felt like I would be walked over in mediation..or something like that. he did say if there was any chance of reconciliation to get MC because there would be no chance once this went through the courts. That it will get ugly. He felt like the case was very easy. (I don't believe he is an attorney that really needs my business either) where I live legal fees are prorated. So husband I am sure does not want to go this route. Husband would be concerned over my current salary for this reason as well.
I am hoping he wants reconciliation. That is my desire and it's very known.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 09:34 PM
Quote:
I had talked with attorney and was advised to enter litigation and not to mediate because he felt My situation had been set up to put me at disadvantage. He also said he felt like I would be walked over in mediation..or something like that. he did say if there was any chance of reconciliation to get MC because there would be no chance once this went through the courts. That it will get ugly.
This just sounds gross. This isn't my experience at ALL.
There are many factors in a divorce. Thinking the situation has been staged is just paranoid and adversarial. Oh, I'm sure H has those thoughts, just as you have thoughts about not wanting to do anything to damage your situation in a way that will hurt your case. But that's a far cry from 'set up'.
Mediation is designed to make sure both people have a voice. I know it was the first time I felt heard while XW was bulldozing me and completely delusional. I am confused as to why the mediator wouldn't be able to help. I agree about avoiding court, but I know that when I was done with my first mediation session XW texted me saying thanks, and how relieved she was we were able to work so well together.
Anyway JH, doesn't matter. I'd talk to your DB coach and see what they thought the best way to enlist more help was, and how to voice that to H. To me that's the top priority.
PS- one communication style that worked well for me and XW post BD was EMAIL. It worked for so many reasons. We both had equal voice time, and tone. We both got to read and reread what the other person was saying in a non-escalated situation. We both got to script our responses. It avoided emotional reactions. All in all, it was the best we'd ever communicated. It is really tragic that it didn't get discovered until after BD. Have you thought about trying to talk it out through email? You could literally post emails here and get advice, or run them by DB coach. This was HUGE for me! Just wanted to share.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 09:37 PM
Originally Posted By: otw
ok, so knowing you did not actually ask him to leave that makes this boundary fairly easy.
You need to state the next time that he says this something along the lines of " i need to make something clear, i never asked or forced you to leave. I understand you may have felt you had no choice, and i know that must have been difficult, but I did not make you leave or ask you to. Please do not represent that to me or others.
I know a boundary has a consequence, but I am not sure what consequence you connect to that.
I could be off, but i have seen it come a few times on your thread so I know it bothers you
You need to state the next time that he says this something along the lines of " i need to make something clear, i never asked or forced you to leave. I understand you may have felt you had no choice, and i know that must have been difficult, but I did not make you leave or ask you to. Please do not represent that to me or others.
I know a boundary has a consequence, but I am not sure what consequence you connect to that.
I could be off, but i have seen it come a few times on your thread so I know it bothers you
I just have one question- why does this matter? Is this a battle we need to pick? Does this bring you closer to R or help the children? Or is being right more important?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/09/16 10:05 PM
Julie,
I am not a good Dber because I've never had to DB. Rather simple really. I never had a chance with Mr Ex. All my DBing has been towards myself and that seems like a crazy notion but all the same true. I guess my approach to being here is that I am good at waving the flag, I am good support. I add a piece here or there when I see someone struggling. But I don't have the courage or bravery it takes to really help someone through this. I don't have the courage to call someone out on their stuff. Stuff I can see getting in the way. I am coward Julie. I have been with you.
So I am soooooo happy that you have Zues. And now you have found Swiggy.
You have all the bases covered now to DB the sh*t out of this sitch.
I feel like Squiggy will now support you through the more therapuetic steps of this journey with H. I am glad. My gut tells me you are ready.
You are incredibly responsive to men with high emotional intelligence and firm logical arguments Julie. that has been apparent for a long time. You are incredibly open to what they provide you. It seems to me that the way they engage you makes you so open to seeing things differently. It's a quality you are literally begging your H to have everytime you interact with him.
I wonder what it is about H and being in relationship to him that stops your from being so open. Sure there is the intimate nature of the relationship and we always struggle for asking for what we need from someone we are emotionally invested in. But there is something else here for what my opinion is worth.
What is the Zues and Squiggy do that opens you up, that makes you open to being critiqued, that allows you to express yourself with little to no anger. That allows you to communicate from a place I feel, rather than I think. Is it because they lead and you are happy to follow or is it something else they do that makes you feel safe.
You have referenced logical thinking and robust discussion as being innately something you need. Is this what they provide you.
To note: I think H has the ability to meet this need. And I don't think he is having an affair either. I hope to be proven right.
Julie, I don't have the eloquancy or intellectual nouse to describe what either of these two gorgeous men Zues and Squiggy can. But listen to what they have to say. I have not missed a post on your threads in the last couple of months. There is nothing that either Zues or now Squiggy have said to you in the last 24-48 hours that I haven't been thinking and feeling about your sitch.
You are getting so close to where you need to be. And frankly I know it scares the bejeezes out of you.
There is also something I do know, you being emotionally vulnerable is going to change everything.
As I always say just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't care or not supporting you. I just think other's are giving you everything you need.
So much love for you Julie.
Jellyxxx
I am not a good Dber because I've never had to DB. Rather simple really. I never had a chance with Mr Ex. All my DBing has been towards myself and that seems like a crazy notion but all the same true. I guess my approach to being here is that I am good at waving the flag, I am good support. I add a piece here or there when I see someone struggling. But I don't have the courage or bravery it takes to really help someone through this. I don't have the courage to call someone out on their stuff. Stuff I can see getting in the way. I am coward Julie. I have been with you.
So I am soooooo happy that you have Zues. And now you have found Swiggy.
You have all the bases covered now to DB the sh*t out of this sitch.
I feel like Squiggy will now support you through the more therapuetic steps of this journey with H. I am glad. My gut tells me you are ready.
You are incredibly responsive to men with high emotional intelligence and firm logical arguments Julie. that has been apparent for a long time. You are incredibly open to what they provide you. It seems to me that the way they engage you makes you so open to seeing things differently. It's a quality you are literally begging your H to have everytime you interact with him.
I wonder what it is about H and being in relationship to him that stops your from being so open. Sure there is the intimate nature of the relationship and we always struggle for asking for what we need from someone we are emotionally invested in. But there is something else here for what my opinion is worth.
What is the Zues and Squiggy do that opens you up, that makes you open to being critiqued, that allows you to express yourself with little to no anger. That allows you to communicate from a place I feel, rather than I think. Is it because they lead and you are happy to follow or is it something else they do that makes you feel safe.
You have referenced logical thinking and robust discussion as being innately something you need. Is this what they provide you.
To note: I think H has the ability to meet this need. And I don't think he is having an affair either. I hope to be proven right.
Julie, I don't have the eloquancy or intellectual nouse to describe what either of these two gorgeous men Zues and Squiggy can. But listen to what they have to say. I have not missed a post on your threads in the last couple of months. There is nothing that either Zues or now Squiggy have said to you in the last 24-48 hours that I haven't been thinking and feeling about your sitch.
You are getting so close to where you need to be. And frankly I know it scares the bejeezes out of you.
There is also something I do know, you being emotionally vulnerable is going to change everything.
As I always say just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't care or not supporting you. I just think other's are giving you everything you need.
So much love for you Julie.
Jellyxxx
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 12:02 AM
JellyB
I absolutely love your insight. You actually offer much logical thinking and robust conversation.
LOL. Yes. I am comfortable with logical men because I grew up surrounded by boys! Boys that are very logical and emotionally intelligent and philisophical and best of all FUNNY. I feel like I can trust and grasp the honesty and directness of men who have no ulterior motives. ( My female friends are more like men in female bodies). They don't sugar coat and are not concerned with being liked. I actually appreciate that. IRL I would be very comfortable with the Larry David Esque type of conversation. Where you are called out and openly admit to some pretty morally corrupt thoughts and behaviors. I would trust it because it's honest.
I think I grasp on to what zues says because he is basically the only person that really stood up for my husband (and other husbands as well). When I tell my story i come across as this sweet, innocent single mom who was left by her husband and it is easy to side with me. Husband did do a lot of crappy things. Perhaps zues offers me an opinion that is easy for me to accept because deep down its what I want to hear.... That husband is not a bad guy. He is not an abuser or cheater. We don't have to divorce.
I do wish my husband was able to communicate with me better. He is a "mans man" and does not like to socially engage much. He likes to work on things. He is a logical thinker, but for some reason struggles to communicate. I had no problems telling him my needs (probably did this too much) he cannot explain what he is thinking or tell me how he feels but then seems angry when I question and don't know. I want him to just be direct with me.
I know I come across as compulsive but you don't know how much it relieves me to hear that you do not think my husband is having an affair.
I absolutely love your insight. You actually offer much logical thinking and robust conversation.
LOL. Yes. I am comfortable with logical men because I grew up surrounded by boys! Boys that are very logical and emotionally intelligent and philisophical and best of all FUNNY. I feel like I can trust and grasp the honesty and directness of men who have no ulterior motives. ( My female friends are more like men in female bodies). They don't sugar coat and are not concerned with being liked. I actually appreciate that. IRL I would be very comfortable with the Larry David Esque type of conversation. Where you are called out and openly admit to some pretty morally corrupt thoughts and behaviors. I would trust it because it's honest.
I think I grasp on to what zues says because he is basically the only person that really stood up for my husband (and other husbands as well). When I tell my story i come across as this sweet, innocent single mom who was left by her husband and it is easy to side with me. Husband did do a lot of crappy things. Perhaps zues offers me an opinion that is easy for me to accept because deep down its what I want to hear.... That husband is not a bad guy. He is not an abuser or cheater. We don't have to divorce.
I do wish my husband was able to communicate with me better. He is a "mans man" and does not like to socially engage much. He likes to work on things. He is a logical thinker, but for some reason struggles to communicate. I had no problems telling him my needs (probably did this too much) he cannot explain what he is thinking or tell me how he feels but then seems angry when I question and don't know. I want him to just be direct with me.
I know I come across as compulsive but you don't know how much it relieves me to hear that you do not think my husband is having an affair.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 07:17 AM
[quote=Zues126I think H feels powerless because he can't change you and get you to be the partner he feels he needs (right or wrong), he is at the mercy of the courts as to his future life, ultimately he is faced with either being in a marriage where he feels unfulfilled and undermined, or he is single again only without the freedom and youth he once had and instead with chains around him forcing him to work hard for the rest of his life for a family he feels evicted from.
[/quote]
This is very insightful. What a horrible,trapped feeling to have. I think that must be what my H is feeling right now...how he views his choices. And, right now, he is choosing the latter because it seems to "give him the better chance at happiness down the line" (his actual words). Can we convince them through our actions otherwise?
[/quote]
This is very insightful. What a horrible,trapped feeling to have. I think that must be what my H is feeling right now...how he views his choices. And, right now, he is choosing the latter because it seems to "give him the better chance at happiness down the line" (his actual words). Can we convince them through our actions otherwise?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 07:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Originally Posted By: otw
ok, so knowing you did not actually ask him to leave that makes this boundary fairly easy.
You need to state the next time that he says this something along the lines of " i need to make something clear, i never asked or forced you to leave. I understand you may have felt you had no choice, and i know that must have been difficult, but I did not make you leave or ask you to. Please do not represent that to me or others.
I know a boundary has a consequence, but I am not sure what consequence you connect to that.
I could be off, but i have seen it come a few times on your thread so I know it bothers you
You need to state the next time that he says this something along the lines of " i need to make something clear, i never asked or forced you to leave. I understand you may have felt you had no choice, and i know that must have been difficult, but I did not make you leave or ask you to. Please do not represent that to me or others.
I know a boundary has a consequence, but I am not sure what consequence you connect to that.
I could be off, but i have seen it come a few times on your thread so I know it bothers you
I just have one question- why does this matter? Is this a battle we need to pick? Does this bring you closer to R or help the children? Or is being right more important?
I would say the reason for this is not to get the relationship back. I do not think this will neither bring back or push further away. What it will do is set that she will not accept being made a villain and it is a truth dart about him making decisions on his own.
again, I dont have all the answers as I do not believe any of us do, but i see this as a hot button that keeps coming up for Julie and hopefully once addressing it she can move on from it.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 07:51 AM
Originally Posted By: JellyB
But I don't have the courage or bravery it takes to really help someone through this. I don't have the courage to call someone out on their stuff. Stuff I can see getting in the way. I am coward Julie. I have been with you.
Maybe the only difference is that us guys don't know how to keep our mouths shut when we should and want to fix everything... (Deep, I know!)
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 07:56 AM
Julie, have you sought different legal advice? This is one of the things that I regretted not doing. Find a lawyer that is fair but will not hesitate to fight for your interest. Mine didn't really.
Financially, going the mediation route was a major failure for me and by the time we got there, I was so exhausted by the ex's lies and manipulation that I just gave in. I didnt hold him accountable for his promises.
In hindsight, I should have compartmentalised the R from the D. Settle the D issues first. Once I can be assured that kid and I would be financially provided for in a fair manner, I could then R without the fear that the ex was using R to get out of his financial obligations. It's near my bedtime now and I hope I am making sense.
This is what 25yearsmlc posted in one of her recent posts. She herself is a L but still she made sure that she got sound legal advice from another L to get fair and unbiased advice. Once she knew that she and her children would be fine whether or not she D, she would be fine. FYI, she is one of the successes here.
With the ex, while we were trying to R, there was the suspicion both ways that we were trying to take advantage of each other. When I tried to talk to the ex about the D terms, we always ended up quarrelling and hating each other. He saw me as only interested in the financial aspect and didn't understand my fear of not having a house for kid and myself.
Like your H, the xh Has always been very well-provided and until he married me, had never had to worry about jobs and finances. His parents provided for everything. My working/not working has always been a big issue for him and his mother. He couldn't cope with having a family because he's never had responsibilities. Apparently, I ruined happily ever after for him. I should stop before I get called out for making him out to be a monster. But nowadays I really do feel that way. :p
I feel for you cuz Our Hs are very similar.
So maybe like what Zues has suggested, get good experts who will think for you. Especially a good L. And then you should concentrate on your R, leaving any dirty work to your L. Is it possible to agree not to talk about D terms with your H?
Get your bases covered and you would stop feeling so vulnerable. Then work your a$$ off at R.
Rooting for you.
Financially, going the mediation route was a major failure for me and by the time we got there, I was so exhausted by the ex's lies and manipulation that I just gave in. I didnt hold him accountable for his promises.
In hindsight, I should have compartmentalised the R from the D. Settle the D issues first. Once I can be assured that kid and I would be financially provided for in a fair manner, I could then R without the fear that the ex was using R to get out of his financial obligations. It's near my bedtime now and I hope I am making sense.
This is what 25yearsmlc posted in one of her recent posts. She herself is a L but still she made sure that she got sound legal advice from another L to get fair and unbiased advice. Once she knew that she and her children would be fine whether or not she D, she would be fine. FYI, she is one of the successes here.
With the ex, while we were trying to R, there was the suspicion both ways that we were trying to take advantage of each other. When I tried to talk to the ex about the D terms, we always ended up quarrelling and hating each other. He saw me as only interested in the financial aspect and didn't understand my fear of not having a house for kid and myself.
Like your H, the xh Has always been very well-provided and until he married me, had never had to worry about jobs and finances. His parents provided for everything. My working/not working has always been a big issue for him and his mother. He couldn't cope with having a family because he's never had responsibilities. Apparently, I ruined happily ever after for him. I should stop before I get called out for making him out to be a monster. But nowadays I really do feel that way. :p
I feel for you cuz Our Hs are very similar.
So maybe like what Zues has suggested, get good experts who will think for you. Especially a good L. And then you should concentrate on your R, leaving any dirty work to your L. Is it possible to agree not to talk about D terms with your H?
Get your bases covered and you would stop feeling so vulnerable. Then work your a$$ off at R.
Rooting for you.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 07:28 PM
Originally Posted By: JellyB
Julie,
I am not a good Dber because I've never had to DB. Rather simple really. I never had a chance with Mr Ex. All my DBing has been towards myself and that seems like a crazy notion but all the same true. I guess my approach to being here is that I am good at waving the flag, I am good support. I add a piece here or there when I see someone struggling. But I don't have the courage or bravery it takes to really help someone through this. I don't have the courage to call someone out on their stuff. Stuff I can see getting in the way. I am coward Julie. I have been with you.
I am so sorry for the pain and hardship you had to endure at the end of your relationship with Mr. Ex I am so greatful you came to this site to heal. Your story touched me so much, and I always think Of the beauty and grace and generosity you showed Mr Ex's daughter. Unlike me, you seem to have set the example of what one should aspire to become like spiritually. You do not need these boards or this way of healing for the same reasons I do. But I think and I hope they have and continue to help you. I think perhaps we have to experience pain and suffering in life because it is the only way we grow and truly learn to empathize with others. When I first came on here, a poster (possibly Zelda?) told me that most people on here have a very minimal to nil chance at successfully busting their divorce. That the real purpose of these boards was to heal ourselves. You have a way of saying things that is kind, eloquent, insightful. Your responses are not only well thought out but of so much depth. I believe it was ancaire, who so brilliantly said the statements you write are to be saved and reread multiple times. I couldn't agree more. There is so much depth to what you say. I am greatful. (That being said, I would be open to 2 x 4s because I know they are meant from a good place)
So I am soooooo happy that you have Zues. And now you have found Swiggy.
You have all the bases covered now to DB the sh*t out of this sitch.
I feel like Squiggy will now support you through the more therapuetic steps of this journey with H. I am glad. My gut tells me you are ready.
You are incredibly responsive to men with high emotional intelligence and firm logical arguments Julie. that has been apparent for a long time. You are incredibly open to what they provide you. It seems to me that the way they engage you makes you so open to seeing things differently. It's a quality you are literally begging your H to have everytime you interact with him.
I wonder what it is about H and being in relationship to him that stops your from being so open. Sure there is the intimate nature of the relationship and we always struggle for asking for what we need from someone we are emotionally invested in. But there is something else here for what my opinion is worth.
What is the Zues and Squiggy do that opens you up, that makes you open to being critiqued, that allows you to express yourself with little to no anger. That allows you to communicate from a place I feel, rather than I think. Is it because they lead and you are happy to follow or is it something else they do that makes you feel safe.
You have referenced logical thinking and robust discussion as being innately something you need. Is this what they provide you.
. I am uncomfortable with my previous response, which was not very well thought out or respectful to the many, many brilliant and direct female posters who have helped me and who I wish I could just meet and befriend IRL!
Yes it is true, because I grew up with mostly boys and ( a tomboy mom )I get more intimidated with females So talking to and approaching men is easier for me. But I dont think that's what it's about. I am pretty open to criticism from any gender if it's respectfully discussed or at the very least done with good intention. My husband could not do this with me and I could not do this with him. Maybe because when I interact with my husband there are emotions involved. It is not objective and detached, like on these boards or with my friends. In our case, because there has been so much anger and resentment there is no logic to husbands anger and complaints and stone walling and actions. I feel like I'm on uneven playing ground. At least in my mind I am. I guess I am seeking someone to answer and interpret for him as well?
To note: I think H has the ability to meet this need. And I don't think he is having an affair either. I hope to be proven right.
Julie, I don't have the eloquancy or intellectual nouse to describe what either of these two gorgeous men Zues and Squiggy can. But listen to what they have to say. I have not missed a post on your threads in the last couple of months. There is nothing that either Zues or now Squiggy have said to you in the last 24-48 hours that I haven't been thinking and feeling about your sitch.
You are getting so close to where you need to be. And frankly I know it scares the bejeezes out of you.
yes. I feel so overwhelmed. My vitals are up. I am not sleeping well. My life can go in so many directions at this point and I am not even sure which direction I want it to go in. I see all these little webs of possibilities and positives and negatives of each decision and what ifs and I am just depressed and anxious.
There is also something I do know, you being emotionally vulnerable is going to change everything.
As I always say just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't care or not supporting you. I just think other's are giving you everything you need.
So much love for you Julie.
Jellyxxx
I am not a good Dber because I've never had to DB. Rather simple really. I never had a chance with Mr Ex. All my DBing has been towards myself and that seems like a crazy notion but all the same true. I guess my approach to being here is that I am good at waving the flag, I am good support. I add a piece here or there when I see someone struggling. But I don't have the courage or bravery it takes to really help someone through this. I don't have the courage to call someone out on their stuff. Stuff I can see getting in the way. I am coward Julie. I have been with you.
I am so sorry for the pain and hardship you had to endure at the end of your relationship with Mr. Ex I am so greatful you came to this site to heal. Your story touched me so much, and I always think Of the beauty and grace and generosity you showed Mr Ex's daughter. Unlike me, you seem to have set the example of what one should aspire to become like spiritually. You do not need these boards or this way of healing for the same reasons I do. But I think and I hope they have and continue to help you. I think perhaps we have to experience pain and suffering in life because it is the only way we grow and truly learn to empathize with others. When I first came on here, a poster (possibly Zelda?) told me that most people on here have a very minimal to nil chance at successfully busting their divorce. That the real purpose of these boards was to heal ourselves. You have a way of saying things that is kind, eloquent, insightful. Your responses are not only well thought out but of so much depth. I believe it was ancaire, who so brilliantly said the statements you write are to be saved and reread multiple times. I couldn't agree more. There is so much depth to what you say. I am greatful. (That being said, I would be open to 2 x 4s because I know they are meant from a good place)
So I am soooooo happy that you have Zues. And now you have found Swiggy.
You have all the bases covered now to DB the sh*t out of this sitch.
I feel like Squiggy will now support you through the more therapuetic steps of this journey with H. I am glad. My gut tells me you are ready.
You are incredibly responsive to men with high emotional intelligence and firm logical arguments Julie. that has been apparent for a long time. You are incredibly open to what they provide you. It seems to me that the way they engage you makes you so open to seeing things differently. It's a quality you are literally begging your H to have everytime you interact with him.
I wonder what it is about H and being in relationship to him that stops your from being so open. Sure there is the intimate nature of the relationship and we always struggle for asking for what we need from someone we are emotionally invested in. But there is something else here for what my opinion is worth.
What is the Zues and Squiggy do that opens you up, that makes you open to being critiqued, that allows you to express yourself with little to no anger. That allows you to communicate from a place I feel, rather than I think. Is it because they lead and you are happy to follow or is it something else they do that makes you feel safe.
You have referenced logical thinking and robust discussion as being innately something you need. Is this what they provide you.
. I am uncomfortable with my previous response, which was not very well thought out or respectful to the many, many brilliant and direct female posters who have helped me and who I wish I could just meet and befriend IRL!
Yes it is true, because I grew up with mostly boys and ( a tomboy mom )I get more intimidated with females So talking to and approaching men is easier for me. But I dont think that's what it's about. I am pretty open to criticism from any gender if it's respectfully discussed or at the very least done with good intention. My husband could not do this with me and I could not do this with him. Maybe because when I interact with my husband there are emotions involved. It is not objective and detached, like on these boards or with my friends. In our case, because there has been so much anger and resentment there is no logic to husbands anger and complaints and stone walling and actions. I feel like I'm on uneven playing ground. At least in my mind I am. I guess I am seeking someone to answer and interpret for him as well?
To note: I think H has the ability to meet this need. And I don't think he is having an affair either. I hope to be proven right.
Julie, I don't have the eloquancy or intellectual nouse to describe what either of these two gorgeous men Zues and Squiggy can. But listen to what they have to say. I have not missed a post on your threads in the last couple of months. There is nothing that either Zues or now Squiggy have said to you in the last 24-48 hours that I haven't been thinking and feeling about your sitch.
You are getting so close to where you need to be. And frankly I know it scares the bejeezes out of you.
yes. I feel so overwhelmed. My vitals are up. I am not sleeping well. My life can go in so many directions at this point and I am not even sure which direction I want it to go in. I see all these little webs of possibilities and positives and negatives of each decision and what ifs and I am just depressed and anxious.
There is also something I do know, you being emotionally vulnerable is going to change everything.
As I always say just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't care or not supporting you. I just think other's are giving you everything you need.
So much love for you Julie.
Jellyxxx
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 07:55 PM
Grlonfr
Thank you for sharing. What's great about each of us willing to tell our experiences is that others can learn from our mistakes and regrets.
I understand better what you mean about separating out thoughts of reconciliation from working in your own best interests. In the beginning of my situation, husband had told me he hadn't decided on whether he wanted to work for reconciliation. I held off on requesting CS because I was afraid it would affect our chances. Once he told me no reconciliation i filed. I accepted and was mentally moving on. Then he told me yes possible reconciliation. Now limbo again.
Right now husband has to make decision of whether he wants to move forward torwards divorce or move forward torwards reconciliation. If he says divorce, I am not going to engage the possibility of R. Mentally, I can't live like that. It would just extend this limbo period I so detest. I would move forward in any way I had to. My decisions will be made to best meet the needs of the kids. I will not make decisions based on the possibility that my decision and goodwill might make him change his mind about me. With him, it won't work....
In fact, I don't really see the sense in discussing the terms of a divorce settlement unless that is what he wants to do. It makes no sense to me. So I don't know why he even mentioned it.
Now if he says reconciliation is where he wants to move to it is a bit more complicated cause it's essentially still a limbo period. Like you, i will worry that His goal is to set me up in a position that he can gain a better legal advantage in. This mutual suspicion will hinder reconciliation. How could it not? but I have to wait and see what is said.
Thank you for sharing. What's great about each of us willing to tell our experiences is that others can learn from our mistakes and regrets.
I understand better what you mean about separating out thoughts of reconciliation from working in your own best interests. In the beginning of my situation, husband had told me he hadn't decided on whether he wanted to work for reconciliation. I held off on requesting CS because I was afraid it would affect our chances. Once he told me no reconciliation i filed. I accepted and was mentally moving on. Then he told me yes possible reconciliation. Now limbo again.
Right now husband has to make decision of whether he wants to move forward torwards divorce or move forward torwards reconciliation. If he says divorce, I am not going to engage the possibility of R. Mentally, I can't live like that. It would just extend this limbo period I so detest. I would move forward in any way I had to. My decisions will be made to best meet the needs of the kids. I will not make decisions based on the possibility that my decision and goodwill might make him change his mind about me. With him, it won't work....
In fact, I don't really see the sense in discussing the terms of a divorce settlement unless that is what he wants to do. It makes no sense to me. So I don't know why he even mentioned it.
Now if he says reconciliation is where he wants to move to it is a bit more complicated cause it's essentially still a limbo period. Like you, i will worry that His goal is to set me up in a position that he can gain a better legal advantage in. This mutual suspicion will hinder reconciliation. How could it not? but I have to wait and see what is said.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/10/16 08:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Julie
Just to let you know I keep up with your thread, and although I don't post, I read up.
I know you sense us silent beings lurking.
V
Just to let you know I keep up with your thread, and although I don't post, I read up.
I know you sense us silent beings lurking.
V
Vanilla, thank you always. you helped me so much! I like to lurk on your FOO thread. Great stuff. Quite brilliant actually.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 03:50 PM
Julie, when you say that H has to make a decision, do you mean that you are asking him for this decision? I am reaching a point where I can't remain in limbo. Not today, not next week, but within a few months I believe I need to get out of limbo. Just wondering what this looks like for you. If you ask, is it an ultimatum? If you ask and he says R, but then continues to act the same way as he is now, then what?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 06:47 PM
Hi Fo
Basically I called my husband out on him giving me mixed messages regarding recomciliation. Why? Because I am horrible at divorce busting and have no patience and because my personality does not handle limbo very well.
So we agreed to have discussion in person exploring the pros and cons of each and mapping out a plan. (I would not be willing to map out a plan regarding divorce unless I spoke with attorney. He is obviously afraid of what type of demands I make and understandably wants no surprises).
I am hoping he has a decision as to what he wants to do. I am not going to give ultimatum, but decison can't be endless either. It's not fair to me. I will tell him i am willing to work on reconciliation and I hope he is too, but if he is unable to do so, I will be able to survive.
So the way I will prepare. ( be prepared for my future posts agonizing over this )
1. Pros/ cons of divorce
2. Reconciliation...major question for me is do you make demands? Is it fair for him to demand that I get 2nd job? Jellyb mad brilliant point that reconciliation is typically more about connecting, communicating, and validating. This makes sense to me. The demands sound like a way to control. I find them to be a narrow line between boundaries.
What would reconciliation entail? Date night once a week? Does that become a demand?
3. Find list of counselors
4. I will try not to voice any of my complaints. I have to remember I can't get through to him anyhow. I will just complain here.
5. I will do more listening then anything. ask questions to clarify
6. He mentioned recording and putting things in writing so there is no confusion, and we can go back and listen.
Any other suggestions?
Basically I called my husband out on him giving me mixed messages regarding recomciliation. Why? Because I am horrible at divorce busting and have no patience and because my personality does not handle limbo very well.
So we agreed to have discussion in person exploring the pros and cons of each and mapping out a plan. (I would not be willing to map out a plan regarding divorce unless I spoke with attorney. He is obviously afraid of what type of demands I make and understandably wants no surprises).
I am hoping he has a decision as to what he wants to do. I am not going to give ultimatum, but decison can't be endless either. It's not fair to me. I will tell him i am willing to work on reconciliation and I hope he is too, but if he is unable to do so, I will be able to survive.
So the way I will prepare. ( be prepared for my future posts agonizing over this )
1. Pros/ cons of divorce
2. Reconciliation...major question for me is do you make demands? Is it fair for him to demand that I get 2nd job? Jellyb mad brilliant point that reconciliation is typically more about connecting, communicating, and validating. This makes sense to me. The demands sound like a way to control. I find them to be a narrow line between boundaries.
What would reconciliation entail? Date night once a week? Does that become a demand?
3. Find list of counselors
4. I will try not to voice any of my complaints. I have to remember I can't get through to him anyhow. I will just complain here.
5. I will do more listening then anything. ask questions to clarify
6. He mentioned recording and putting things in writing so there is no confusion, and we can go back and listen.
Any other suggestions?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 06:55 PM
In the mean time, I am taking online defensive driving course as he is one paying car insurance. He yelled about this the other day, especially since I am the reason the rates are up. He didn't tell me to take this course, but it is the right thing for me to do.
I know it's not the same as landing a second job but I hope he sees the effort.
It's actually easy to take course and write on these forums
I know it's not the same as landing a second job but I hope he sees the effort.
It's actually easy to take course and write on these forums
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 07:11 PM
Julie, I am watching this with a lot of interest.
I would not make demands. Maybe ask "what would a reconciled marriage look like" to each of you? And work slowly towards reaching those goals. See how that is a more positive statement than "what are our demands?"
Date night. I would not make this a "demand". If H is open to this conversation, I would say "I would like to spend quality time together on a regular basis. What kinds of activities do you think would be enjoyable for us to do without the kids?" And brainstorm together. So its more of a mutual collaboration rather than "I need a date night once a week." Together you might come up with a weekly date night, but it won't be a "demand."
I am really curious to see how this works for you. I think if you can keep things positive and collaborative, this could be a positive thing. Another thing I would suggest is that if you do have this conversation with H, that you don't tackle ALL of your expectations and issues at once. Maybe take it one step at a time.
I would not make demands. Maybe ask "what would a reconciled marriage look like" to each of you? And work slowly towards reaching those goals. See how that is a more positive statement than "what are our demands?"
Date night. I would not make this a "demand". If H is open to this conversation, I would say "I would like to spend quality time together on a regular basis. What kinds of activities do you think would be enjoyable for us to do without the kids?" And brainstorm together. So its more of a mutual collaboration rather than "I need a date night once a week." Together you might come up with a weekly date night, but it won't be a "demand."
I am really curious to see how this works for you. I think if you can keep things positive and collaborative, this could be a positive thing. Another thing I would suggest is that if you do have this conversation with H, that you don't tackle ALL of your expectations and issues at once. Maybe take it one step at a time.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 07:24 PM
Fo
Yes. Great advise. I agree with everything you have said.
I wish I was able to word things like you do. I will reread your post before I go. Those are great suggestions and I will be using them.
Do you have any ideas how to handle it when he says he wants me to take on second job?
This meeting isn't until next weekend. I am worried that he is going to say he never agreed to it or something like that. Ok let me not think like that.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 07:36 PM
Julie the reconcilation process is like figuring out the meaning of life.
You may actually miss the point of it because you were focussed on the destination and not the journey.
Reconcilation is process of coming together. Like life it requires an open attitude and heart and curious and enquiring mind, an ability to be in the now and to take the good and leave the bad. Be prepared to be surprised the other person may not have the same thoughts, feelings and beliefs they once had. A beginners mind is required.
FO has given you some great advice. Collaboration with no agenda on a certain outcome.
I guarantee you Julie if you push for answers from H he will give them to you and likely they will catch in your throat.
If explore conversations and curiosities you might well be surprised. I feel that your H is more open than you think.
PS; Read back over your posts and watch how H responds to your emotional tone and energy. You might find a pattern. And more "I feel - It feels good when, it doesn't feel good when, I would like to feel, I don't want to feel " from you. He seems to like it when you are bit more in your heart than your head. Just an observation. I could be wrong!! Other Fo's statements are awesome and impressive!
Jellyxxx
You may actually miss the point of it because you were focussed on the destination and not the journey.
Reconcilation is process of coming together. Like life it requires an open attitude and heart and curious and enquiring mind, an ability to be in the now and to take the good and leave the bad. Be prepared to be surprised the other person may not have the same thoughts, feelings and beliefs they once had. A beginners mind is required.
FO has given you some great advice. Collaboration with no agenda on a certain outcome.
I guarantee you Julie if you push for answers from H he will give them to you and likely they will catch in your throat.
If explore conversations and curiosities you might well be surprised. I feel that your H is more open than you think.
PS; Read back over your posts and watch how H responds to your emotional tone and energy. You might find a pattern. And more "I feel - It feels good when, it doesn't feel good when, I would like to feel, I don't want to feel " from you. He seems to like it when you are bit more in your heart than your head. Just an observation. I could be wrong!! Other Fo's statements are awesome and impressive!
Jellyxxx
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 07:37 PM
I think you could take some things off the table until you see a counselor. Especially if it is a high-conflict issue, you could say, 'Hey, this is something we have discussed and argued about before, how about we put this in front of the counselor and get help to work through it - both to actually solve it and as an exercise in learning how to communicate better?'
It looks like financials are a hot button issue for both of you. How about meeting with a financial planner/adviser? (I would recommend a CPA or similar, someone who doesn't want to sell you a product.) That way you would ensure that there's no yelling or emotion involved, but rational thought. Also, you would both be looking at unbiased numbers.
I think it is validating if you say to your H, 'I really want to resolve these issues because I understand how important they are to you, and they are to me, too, but I think we need help to figure it out and find a compromise.' However, it also puts the ball back in his court a little when it comes to what he thinks is important.
My IC (formerly our MC until H wouldn't go anymore) just talked about men's and women's communication styles - it's definitely not odd that we need help.
It looks like financials are a hot button issue for both of you. How about meeting with a financial planner/adviser? (I would recommend a CPA or similar, someone who doesn't want to sell you a product.) That way you would ensure that there's no yelling or emotion involved, but rational thought. Also, you would both be looking at unbiased numbers.
I think it is validating if you say to your H, 'I really want to resolve these issues because I understand how important they are to you, and they are to me, too, but I think we need help to figure it out and find a compromise.' However, it also puts the ball back in his court a little when it comes to what he thinks is important.
My IC (formerly our MC until H wouldn't go anymore) just talked about men's and women's communication styles - it's definitely not odd that we need help.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 08:05 PM
Julie, about the job. You can't just agree to take on a second job. You might find a second job that works out great for you, you might not. You can't be coerced into finding a job. But you can be open to working with H towards common financial goals. I like Painter's advice of talking with a financial planner. Validate that you are aware that finances are an issue. Validate that you are open to exploring this idea further. But do not commit to anything.
I waited a whole year after BD to start my part-time job. For my own reasons, the timing was not right before now. (d in the hospital for 3 months, I wanted the summer with my kids, didn't see many part time jobs available, etc.) While I was interviewing for this position I received a call for an interview for a full-time position. H was excited about that and I told him I would talk to them but ultimately I would not accept a position that didn't allow me the flexibility to meet the needs of my children and my own needs at this point in time. I said I would be open to a more demanding schedule in the future, possibly the fall of 2016, possibly later. I could tell he didn't agree with me, but I am not negotiating on that. (this is the man who didn't understand why I didn't pursue a job that required 25% travel, while we have 3 children, AND he is away for 6 months. What does he think I would do with the kids??)
I believe I stated my intentions/goals in a confident and non emotional, non confrontational manner. He backed down. I am not saying your H will back down, just what worked for me. (also the recruiter for the other position fell off the face of the earth, so its not like it was a valid option.) I also started reading a book on financial planning and H seems to appreciate that. I do care about our finances, and I thought that was a small way to demonstrate that.
I think if your H is reassured that you care about the family finances and you are open to exploring ways to reach your financial goals, including possibly working more, that can go a long way towards validating his concerns. JMO.
I waited a whole year after BD to start my part-time job. For my own reasons, the timing was not right before now. (d in the hospital for 3 months, I wanted the summer with my kids, didn't see many part time jobs available, etc.) While I was interviewing for this position I received a call for an interview for a full-time position. H was excited about that and I told him I would talk to them but ultimately I would not accept a position that didn't allow me the flexibility to meet the needs of my children and my own needs at this point in time. I said I would be open to a more demanding schedule in the future, possibly the fall of 2016, possibly later. I could tell he didn't agree with me, but I am not negotiating on that. (this is the man who didn't understand why I didn't pursue a job that required 25% travel, while we have 3 children, AND he is away for 6 months. What does he think I would do with the kids??)
I believe I stated my intentions/goals in a confident and non emotional, non confrontational manner. He backed down. I am not saying your H will back down, just what worked for me. (also the recruiter for the other position fell off the face of the earth, so its not like it was a valid option.) I also started reading a book on financial planning and H seems to appreciate that. I do care about our finances, and I thought that was a small way to demonstrate that.
I think if your H is reassured that you care about the family finances and you are open to exploring ways to reach your financial goals, including possibly working more, that can go a long way towards validating his concerns. JMO.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 09:09 PM
Originally Posted By: JellyB
Julie the reconcilation process is like figuring out the meaning of life.
You may actually miss the point of it because you were focussed on the destination and not the journey.
Reconcilation is process of coming together. Like life it requires an open attitude and heart and curious and enquiring mind, an ability to be in the now and to take the good and leave the bad. Be prepared to be surprised the other person may not have the same thoughts, feelings and beliefs they once had. A beginners mind is required.
yes. For me the challenge will be taking the good and disregarding the bad. I expect that level of intimacy and good feelings and for husband to have that love and respect he once did for me and i have to remember we are strangers now. That doesn't exist anymore. Everything has to be rebuilt (if that's even the option anymore). at least first time around we had physical attraction to help. I guess this time around we are doing it for kids and sadly in his case finances. Is that what you mean?
FO has given you some great advice. Collaboration with no agenda on a certain outcome.
I guarantee you Julie if you push for answers from H he will give them to you and likely they will catch in your throat.
yes. I know I am pushy. To me this is way to long to go on like this though. I'm gonna try to let him do most of the talking.
If explore conversations and curiosities you might well be surprised. I feel that your H is more open than you think.
i was looking forward to conversing with husband and laughing. Especially about my trip which had a lot of funny parts and was out of ordinary. Now I am guarded and a bit afraid. When I saw him a month ago I made a comment on a new coat I was wearing. It was one of those down below the knees super warm parkas that I found for under 100 bucks. I thought it was a great deal because I am always cold. A few days ago when he was yelling, he complained about me with new coats and him paying child support. How can we work on friendship with this type of tension? Can you imagine how angry he would be about money spent on a trip? Especially since I was mad at him for spending money on a trip when he wasn't paying me child support?
Sometimes I feel like I am being forced to look into a mirror at my own horrible actions and responses to him. Truth is, I would have complained about him spending money on trip even prior to him BD. So it probably prevented him from sharing fun times and opening up to me. I was controlling
PS; Read back over your posts and watch how H responds to your emotional tone and energy. You might find a pattern. And more "I feel - It feels good when, it doesn't feel good when, I would like to feel, I don't want to feel " from you. He seems to like it when you are bit more in your heart than your head. Just an observation. I could be wrong!! Other Fo's statements are awesome and impressive!
yes. When I act jealous no good (business trip on Valentine's day) . When I confessed how much I didn't like giving up kids every other weekend it led to nice validating conversation.
Jellyxxx
You may actually miss the point of it because you were focussed on the destination and not the journey.
Reconcilation is process of coming together. Like life it requires an open attitude and heart and curious and enquiring mind, an ability to be in the now and to take the good and leave the bad. Be prepared to be surprised the other person may not have the same thoughts, feelings and beliefs they once had. A beginners mind is required.
yes. For me the challenge will be taking the good and disregarding the bad. I expect that level of intimacy and good feelings and for husband to have that love and respect he once did for me and i have to remember we are strangers now. That doesn't exist anymore. Everything has to be rebuilt (if that's even the option anymore). at least first time around we had physical attraction to help. I guess this time around we are doing it for kids and sadly in his case finances. Is that what you mean?
FO has given you some great advice. Collaboration with no agenda on a certain outcome.
I guarantee you Julie if you push for answers from H he will give them to you and likely they will catch in your throat.
yes. I know I am pushy. To me this is way to long to go on like this though. I'm gonna try to let him do most of the talking.
If explore conversations and curiosities you might well be surprised. I feel that your H is more open than you think.
i was looking forward to conversing with husband and laughing. Especially about my trip which had a lot of funny parts and was out of ordinary. Now I am guarded and a bit afraid. When I saw him a month ago I made a comment on a new coat I was wearing. It was one of those down below the knees super warm parkas that I found for under 100 bucks. I thought it was a great deal because I am always cold. A few days ago when he was yelling, he complained about me with new coats and him paying child support. How can we work on friendship with this type of tension? Can you imagine how angry he would be about money spent on a trip? Especially since I was mad at him for spending money on a trip when he wasn't paying me child support?
Sometimes I feel like I am being forced to look into a mirror at my own horrible actions and responses to him. Truth is, I would have complained about him spending money on trip even prior to him BD. So it probably prevented him from sharing fun times and opening up to me. I was controlling
PS; Read back over your posts and watch how H responds to your emotional tone and energy. You might find a pattern. And more "I feel - It feels good when, it doesn't feel good when, I would like to feel, I don't want to feel " from you. He seems to like it when you are bit more in your heart than your head. Just an observation. I could be wrong!! Other Fo's statements are awesome and impressive!
yes. When I act jealous no good (business trip on Valentine's day) . When I confessed how much I didn't like giving up kids every other weekend it led to nice validating conversation.
Jellyxxx
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 09:19 PM
i have to admit, i am kind of lost in this.
How are you going to give an ultimatum regarding either working on marriage or get a divorce? If the SO has not shown real interest in reconciling then and if you truly don't eat to get divorced then why do this???
Because you feel you are in limbo? if i am pulling info correctly this happened in July, correct?
Why are we assuming that the SO timeframe is on our timeframe? Because we are tired of dealing with it? Ok, but why not just go about living our lives the way we want just like they are?
I am hoping it is not to get a response and then maybe back fire in your face.
I feel just as much can be accomplished without this path.
Live your life!
please let me know if i am way off here
How are you going to give an ultimatum regarding either working on marriage or get a divorce? If the SO has not shown real interest in reconciling then and if you truly don't eat to get divorced then why do this???
Because you feel you are in limbo? if i am pulling info correctly this happened in July, correct?
Why are we assuming that the SO timeframe is on our timeframe? Because we are tired of dealing with it? Ok, but why not just go about living our lives the way we want just like they are?
I am hoping it is not to get a response and then maybe back fire in your face.
I feel just as much can be accomplished without this path.
Live your life!
please let me know if i am way off here
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 09:31 PM
Painter and Fo
You guys are right. We should not try to tackle any type of volatile issues at this point.
In the past 2nd job was brought up with marriage counselor as was meeting with a financial advisor. It was settled as an issue we both agreed we disagreed on.
It obviously was more then that.
I am going to commit to memory the phrases you guys are suggesting to validate. Very helpful.
You guys are right. We should not try to tackle any type of volatile issues at this point.
In the past 2nd job was brought up with marriage counselor as was meeting with a financial advisor. It was settled as an issue we both agreed we disagreed on.
It obviously was more then that.
I am going to commit to memory the phrases you guys are suggesting to validate. Very helpful.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 09:47 PM
Originally Posted By: otw
i have to admit, i am kind of lost in this.
How are you going to give an ultimatum regarding either working on marriage or get a divorce? If the SO has not shown real interest in reconciling then and if you truly don't eat to get divorced then why do this???
Because you feel you are in limbo? if i am pulling info correctly this happened in July, correct?
Why are we assuming that the SO timeframe is on our timeframe? Because we are tired of dealing with it? Ok, but why not just go about living our lives the way we want just like they are?
I am hoping it is not to get a response and then maybe back fire in your face.
I feel just as much can be accomplished without this path.
Live your life!
please let me know if i am way off here
How are you going to give an ultimatum regarding either working on marriage or get a divorce? If the SO has not shown real interest in reconciling then and if you truly don't eat to get divorced then why do this???
Because you feel you are in limbo? if i am pulling info correctly this happened in July, correct?
Why are we assuming that the SO timeframe is on our timeframe? Because we are tired of dealing with it? Ok, but why not just go about living our lives the way we want just like they are?
I am hoping it is not to get a response and then maybe back fire in your face.
I feel just as much can be accomplished without this path.
Live your life!
please let me know if i am way off here
OTW:
First husband left with stated goal of reconciliation. I pursued did everything wrong. In early fall, I asked husband if he wanted reconciliation still. He said he could not reconcile. At that point while devastated, I moved on. I also filed for child support (something I had asked for twice and led to fights and then wanted to avoid fights by asking again). He received petition and asked to have talk with me. It was during this talk that he said he wanted for us to work on reconciliation. I asked him if it was do to financials and he denied. At court we had argument regarding financial during argument we were talking about what we needed to do to afford to live together. After court husband was furious with me regarding filing and did not bring up reconciliation. I let it go. He started asking to go places with me and kids. I asked about plans regarding reconcilaition and he became furious and started yelling about how I took him to court, I told him I took him to court after he told me he didn't want to reconcile, he told me he said that cause he was pushed and it was based on emotions and he could change his mind just like I always did. He said he didn't want to give me answer based on emotion and would have face to face meeting with me where we could discuss divorce vs reconciliation. That's upcoming.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/11/16 10:08 PM
I still don't see the purpose of forcing an answer. Stop pushing it in my opinion. He can say whatever he wants. It is up to you to judge the actions.
You were not wrong for doing what you had to do. Let him be mad. But until he works through what he needs to why force something? Even if he shows up saying I think I want to reconcile don't belie until you see action
Just my opinion.
You were not wrong for doing what you had to do. Let him be mad. But until he works through what he needs to why force something? Even if he shows up saying I think I want to reconcile don't belie until you see action
Just my opinion.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/14/16 10:30 AM
Otw
I get what your saying. I really do.
I am also not in a good place dealing with limbo and someone giving me mixed symbols. I have to think about my state, because my state affects the kids. I will mentally be better knowing which direction I am going in, regardless of the direction.
I am not going to be rude or demaning in tone, but at this point what's done is done. He has agreed to discuss this.
I get what your saying. I really do.
I am also not in a good place dealing with limbo and someone giving me mixed symbols. I have to think about my state, because my state affects the kids. I will mentally be better knowing which direction I am going in, regardless of the direction.
I am not going to be rude or demaning in tone, but at this point what's done is done. He has agreed to discuss this.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/14/16 11:40 AM
Julie, I wanted to say that I am feeling the same way. I don't want to be in limbo anymore. I will not force things today or next week, but I have decided that I will not stay in limbo indefinitely. I think I can wait until this summer. But being in limbo is not good for me emotionally or physically, it is taking a toll on me and this is my life too. By summer it will be 1.5 years for me and I think that is enough.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/14/16 12:54 PM
Fo, that last "conversation" we had in which husband just yelled at me because of my new coats and for taking him to court, and for bringing my dad to court with me (he brought mommy, I have no idea why he is mad at this) and for me being verbally abusive made me have flashbacks of marriage counseling a year ago.
It's frustrating having someone yell at me for things that are irrational. It reminds me of my abusive boyfriend in colege that would yell at me for having affair with my female roommate or having crush on my brother. Because it is so irrational I don't know how to defend myself.
I don't have much faith. Based on our last conversation, he thought I was out of my mind for bringing up reconciliation. I am thinking he is delaying and stringing me along because of finances. He probably only brought up reconciliation before court date so I would not ask for alimony. He's probably just pretending to want reconciliation so he can get me back to work full time as ultimatum.
I am starting to wonder how much of this is false hope. He does not want me back bad enough, so I will not be treated well.
He is talking about reconciliation and how we would handle divorce so I am not confident. At the very best I will be subjected to walking on egg shells again.
It's frustrating having someone yell at me for things that are irrational. It reminds me of my abusive boyfriend in colege that would yell at me for having affair with my female roommate or having crush on my brother. Because it is so irrational I don't know how to defend myself.
I don't have much faith. Based on our last conversation, he thought I was out of my mind for bringing up reconciliation. I am thinking he is delaying and stringing me along because of finances. He probably only brought up reconciliation before court date so I would not ask for alimony. He's probably just pretending to want reconciliation so he can get me back to work full time as ultimatum.
I am starting to wonder how much of this is false hope. He does not want me back bad enough, so I will not be treated well.
He is talking about reconciliation and how we would handle divorce so I am not confident. At the very best I will be subjected to walking on egg shells again.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/14/16 01:27 PM
I know how negative I sound. This has been a rough week. I'm hormonal, I'm still sick, kids were sick, we have been stuck In doors, and weather is too cold to go anywhere. Kids are off again next week and I'm out of places to keep them occupied all day! Going stir crazy.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/14/16 06:28 PM
More rambling
Yeah, definatly hormonal right now. I know husband cannot text or contact me cause it's Valentine's day. I am presently feeling a really deep sadness. I want to call him, but of course I Will not. I do miss the good times. I miss the average times. I ask myself, was I that horrible of a spouse for it to come to this? He obviously feels like I was. Was I unique to other women? Why is it so hard for him to just move on, start a new slate (like he had suggested that day after he received my petition)
I was so angry earlier. I'm not as accustomed to this feeling.
Yeah, definatly hormonal right now. I know husband cannot text or contact me cause it's Valentine's day. I am presently feeling a really deep sadness. I want to call him, but of course I Will not. I do miss the good times. I miss the average times. I ask myself, was I that horrible of a spouse for it to come to this? He obviously feels like I was. Was I unique to other women? Why is it so hard for him to just move on, start a new slate (like he had suggested that day after he received my petition)
I was so angry earlier. I'm not as accustomed to this feeling.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/14/16 06:37 PM
Sorry you are feeling down, Julie.
I ask myself the same questions - am I so horrible that WAW had to escape from me?
My only advice is to ride the feelings out. I'm trying to do that now as well.
Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day for you.
I ask myself the same questions - am I so horrible that WAW had to escape from me?
My only advice is to ride the feelings out. I'm trying to do that now as well.
Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day for you.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/16/16 08:19 PM
Thanks Thornton
I am very emotionally uncomfortable. I almost feel like I did early in my situation. I have strong urge to call and confront and get any type of communication with husband. I actually called yesterday when I was feeling anger and mistrust about his trip but luckily he didn't pick up and by the time he texted I was sleeping.
Talked to close friend who is pretty good at analyzing people. She feels husband is depressed. Said she really doesn't think there is affair. She thinks he is depressed and wouldn't be capable of putting in the energy necessary to maintain an affair. She said anyone else yes, but doesn't sense it from husband. This made me feel better. She did say he has been miserable for long time, as was I and thinks I should not go back with him. She does not like how he handled things with child support and kids. She said she never thought we were very compatible...we were always bickering and had different interests. My mother said she never understood how we got together either. that he was night and I was day. I am sure husband is thinking this too.
we texted today, brief how r u feeling texts. he did not respond to me and it really bothers me. That lack of courtesy and respect. It really hurts. I have feeling this weekend he is going to say to move forward with divorce.
There is no and I mean no indication that he would say else wise. If there was, there would be calls, some type of concern, something and there is none. I have no control, no say in this situation. He must love this. He said he was living in misery though.
This has been going on for too long now.
I am very emotionally uncomfortable. I almost feel like I did early in my situation. I have strong urge to call and confront and get any type of communication with husband. I actually called yesterday when I was feeling anger and mistrust about his trip but luckily he didn't pick up and by the time he texted I was sleeping.
Talked to close friend who is pretty good at analyzing people. She feels husband is depressed. Said she really doesn't think there is affair. She thinks he is depressed and wouldn't be capable of putting in the energy necessary to maintain an affair. She said anyone else yes, but doesn't sense it from husband. This made me feel better. She did say he has been miserable for long time, as was I and thinks I should not go back with him. She does not like how he handled things with child support and kids. She said she never thought we were very compatible...we were always bickering and had different interests. My mother said she never understood how we got together either. that he was night and I was day. I am sure husband is thinking this too.
we texted today, brief how r u feeling texts. he did not respond to me and it really bothers me. That lack of courtesy and respect. It really hurts. I have feeling this weekend he is going to say to move forward with divorce.
There is no and I mean no indication that he would say else wise. If there was, there would be calls, some type of concern, something and there is none. I have no control, no say in this situation. He must love this. He said he was living in misery though.
This has been going on for too long now.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/16/16 08:31 PM
What is the difference between divorce and limbo?
I've always felt that if there is a difference, you're not doing it right. If you're being tortured right now it is YOUR doing, not H's. What is stopping you from letting go of expectations, detaching, GALing, and finding happiness in the life you have now?
Granted, long term you will need financial clarity, a place on your own, etc. But you will get that in due course. And your happiness can't be contingent upon where you live. Why must the rest of the world change for you to let go and enjoy what you've been given?
I've always felt that if there is a difference, you're not doing it right. If you're being tortured right now it is YOUR doing, not H's. What is stopping you from letting go of expectations, detaching, GALing, and finding happiness in the life you have now?
Granted, long term you will need financial clarity, a place on your own, etc. But you will get that in due course. And your happiness can't be contingent upon where you live. Why must the rest of the world change for you to let go and enjoy what you've been given?
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/17/16 03:47 AM
Julie, I just want to say I understand what you're going through. I really do. The only reason why I didnt post about these experiences is that I came to this board after I was D. In fact, I can post your sitch into my thread almost word for word and change just a few details.
I recognise my ex in your H. I recognise my fears and emotions in you. But you are so much wiser and calmer than me. And you have the help of this board. And you're still working on your M. You have a chance of winning this.
Both times we tried to R, it was H that decided to R. But even then, he was vacillating. I am terrible in limbo and I pushed and pushed for an answer. I was also wary that he was making use of me to drop the restraining order. We were suspicious of each other for financial reasons too.
Your H is like my ex. They are suspicious and they don't want to be pressured. So really, dont push.
I understand your fear. Get professional help to allay your fears and don't talk to your H about topics that will trigger the both of you.
If you feel like you need to vent, it's good to do like what you're doing now and vent here.
((Julie))
I recognise my ex in your H. I recognise my fears and emotions in you. But you are so much wiser and calmer than me. And you have the help of this board. And you're still working on your M. You have a chance of winning this.
Both times we tried to R, it was H that decided to R. But even then, he was vacillating. I am terrible in limbo and I pushed and pushed for an answer. I was also wary that he was making use of me to drop the restraining order. We were suspicious of each other for financial reasons too.
Your H is like my ex. They are suspicious and they don't want to be pressured. So really, dont push.
I understand your fear. Get professional help to allay your fears and don't talk to your H about topics that will trigger the both of you.
If you feel like you need to vent, it's good to do like what you're doing now and vent here.
((Julie))
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/17/16 04:22 AM
Hi, stopping by to give you a hug and tell you you are great! There's a lot of love here for you
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/18/16 07:30 AM
Ok, I'm gonna vent
I am currently not doing limbo correctly. Him going on business trip on Valentine's day weekend really makes me suspicious. It really unsettled me. He was not around on Monday, so he might have lied about what day he came back. It also means that he hasn't seen kids in over 2 weeks and did not make them priority which sickens me. How do you voluntarily go 2 weeks without seeing kids? Is he even human? To me that's sick!!!
I saw him yesterday when I dropped kids off and he was in good mood. Made small talk. His mother has aged horribly within past several months. She is having trouble looking at me, so I wonder what she knows.
I read all these newcomer posts and realize how can I be the only person on these boards whose husband did not cheat or is not involved in affair? This bothers me so much. It is my boundary and the not knowing is awful because if I knew it would release me from limbo and I could move on. I am worried that he has just been stringing me along for financial reasons. I am crying all the time. I have no appetite and am back down to post Husband leaving weight. I am consumed with thought that husband was/is cheating.
Plus I think of his behaviors and how totally controlling and irrational they are... It's all about getting me to work more. I read somewhere that stonewalling someone is a perverted way of maintaining power and control.
He complained that I do not ever compromise with him. He is upset that I will not meet him half way when he picks up kids so he doesn't have to drive as far. I did not want this, why the hell would I help him???????
I am still sick and there has been no GAL or exercise and no good signs from husband so my moral is very low.
I am currently not doing limbo correctly. Him going on business trip on Valentine's day weekend really makes me suspicious. It really unsettled me. He was not around on Monday, so he might have lied about what day he came back. It also means that he hasn't seen kids in over 2 weeks and did not make them priority which sickens me. How do you voluntarily go 2 weeks without seeing kids? Is he even human? To me that's sick!!!
I saw him yesterday when I dropped kids off and he was in good mood. Made small talk. His mother has aged horribly within past several months. She is having trouble looking at me, so I wonder what she knows.
I read all these newcomer posts and realize how can I be the only person on these boards whose husband did not cheat or is not involved in affair? This bothers me so much. It is my boundary and the not knowing is awful because if I knew it would release me from limbo and I could move on. I am worried that he has just been stringing me along for financial reasons. I am crying all the time. I have no appetite and am back down to post Husband leaving weight. I am consumed with thought that husband was/is cheating.
Plus I think of his behaviors and how totally controlling and irrational they are... It's all about getting me to work more. I read somewhere that stonewalling someone is a perverted way of maintaining power and control.
He complained that I do not ever compromise with him. He is upset that I will not meet him half way when he picks up kids so he doesn't have to drive as far. I did not want this, why the hell would I help him???????
I am still sick and there has been no GAL or exercise and no good signs from husband so my moral is very low.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/18/16 07:35 AM
i am not sure my W had any affair or even still has someone.
I try to tell myself there has to be so if or when it happens then i will not melt down, or hopefully not care.
I try to be real to myself, but i also still hope for the best.
I try to tell myself there has to be so if or when it happens then i will not melt down, or hopefully not care.
I try to be real to myself, but i also still hope for the best.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/18/16 07:36 AM
Sorry you are having a rough time Julie. My H is also putting himself before the kids (whole story on my thread). A word of caution - I thought confirming my husband's affair would get me out of limbo too. It didn't. I still have hope w can reconcile. And it just makes me feel stupid and pathetic that I would cross that boundary I thought was a deal breaker too. The worst part is that he doesn't want to reconcile because he's in love with her. I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure you really want to know.....I thought I did but now my teenage sons know and it's a mess (they saw a text on their dad's phone). My advice is keep db'ing and GALing. Just my two cents.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/18/16 08:25 AM
Affair is Definatly deal breaker for me. It is ultimate betrayal and husband knows my feelings on this. It has always been spelled out since I was so traumatized by my relationship before him in which bf was serial cheater. My best friend told me, affair makes it easy for me. Black and white. I move forward without looking back.
Right now I am having trouble moving forward because husband had told me he wanted to wipe slate clean and move forward torwards reconciliation. That we owed it to kids and each other to try. then he never addressed it...complete silence and lack of communication. Then I bring it up and he gets angry, but says the fact that he has not filed shows he is open to it and that based on all the horrible stuff I did (take him to court, not compromise or give in to his demands. Of working full time ) he has every right to not work on reconciliation.
Will be starting new thread soon...new everything. So hope to be recognized.
Right now I am having trouble moving forward because husband had told me he wanted to wipe slate clean and move forward torwards reconciliation. That we owed it to kids and each other to try. then he never addressed it...complete silence and lack of communication. Then I bring it up and he gets angry, but says the fact that he has not filed shows he is open to it and that based on all the horrible stuff I did (take him to court, not compromise or give in to his demands. Of working full time ) he has every right to not work on reconciliation.
Will be starting new thread soon...new everything. So hope to be recognized.
Re: When the goal is positivity - 02/18/16 08:32 AM
Julie,
I am very hopeful that there is no affair in your situation. I think it is positive that he mentioned reconciliation. Sounds like you just have to be patient and continue to db until he's ready to talk about it? I only wish my WAH would be willing to try reconciliation. It is worth waiting for and db'ing if you think he is still interested in reconciling eventually. He probably needs to see that you are serious because you made him feel threatened by the steps you felt you had to take to protect yourself and your kids. Completely rational thing to do but he still took it as an attack. I am new here and making tons of mistakes, but I think just GAL'ing and continuing to DB until he says more is the route I would take. I know it is easier said than done because being in limbo stinks. But, it may be worth the wait. Keep us posted....
I am very hopeful that there is no affair in your situation. I think it is positive that he mentioned reconciliation. Sounds like you just have to be patient and continue to db until he's ready to talk about it? I only wish my WAH would be willing to try reconciliation. It is worth waiting for and db'ing if you think he is still interested in reconciling eventually. He probably needs to see that you are serious because you made him feel threatened by the steps you felt you had to take to protect yourself and your kids. Completely rational thing to do but he still took it as an attack. I am new here and making tons of mistakes, but I think just GAL'ing and continuing to DB until he says more is the route I would take. I know it is easier said than done because being in limbo stinks. But, it may be worth the wait. Keep us posted....