3rd thread
2nd Here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2632711&page=1New thread, with some crazy news.
The family event to the hockey game came and went, and WW was in the mood to talk on Sunday. She had mentioned on Saturday night that something was changing her thought process.
The conversation wasn't elegant, and the clouds didn't part with sunshine flowing down. I didn't have the exact words to say what I wanted, but I have learned to validate. I have learned to listen better, and I have learned to pull what my WW is expressing out of her - she still struggles to talk about her feelings.
What I got was this: she's really scared. And that filing the D was the most scared she's been in her life. That she thinks it's a mistake, but that everyone was/is telling her to move on and dump me. After about 20 minutes of talking, eating lunch next to each other, my wife had to go to a meeting with a neighbor about Advocare - taking a 24 day cleanse, working out 5x a week, and losing a lot of weight right now. Side note - she's stuggled with self-image for our entire marriage, so this change in her is profound.
I head upstairs with her to find a tape measure - she's getting some measurements for the meeting. Something happened while we talked - she kept on looking at me, not with angry eyes, but eyes that said 'help me'.
I then grabbed her, and gave her a passionate kiss... the first kiss I've given her in 4 months or so.
We made out for 10 minutes, in the bathroom, with the door closed - no kids, no dog, just us.
She cried. I cried. And she told me she wants me - that she's choosing us. That she needs to see what has changed for us - that I've changed, and wants to see where things go. That she's calling the laywer on Monday and calling off the D.
WW's are a crazy bunch. Am I to believe her? That was the issue for me.
We talked once the kids were in bed, but talking at night is always bad - she was exhausted. I continued to validate, but she was open to a few suggestions - get some counseling on her own, get her thyroid levels checked (she says she's overdue for bloodwork). Her mind was on the people that she listened to, that told her to move on. They'd ask why she has her ring back on, why she's talking with me now. I told her that they really don't matter - that WE matter. She'll have to have the difficult discussion with OM. She wants to give me access to her phone.
I told her we're taking it slow. We're going to make a second marriage, and that we're going to be different - we've both changed. She has my committment. She says she 'wants to give it a shot', but the difference is that she is committed as well. There will be some tears, some difficult conversations, and that the hurt we have doesn't go away in days, or weeks. But that it will fade, as long as we forgive each other. Daily forgiveness.
She said that she choose ME.
I feel like I won the lottery. Scratch that, this is better.
trumpet, I'm so happy for you man. I'd say call it a small victory. At least you know you've broken through. Take it slow, protect your neck and see where it goes. You've been such a great source of advice and whatnot for me here the last week or so, I'm proud to see some meaningful progress in your life and marriage. I wish the best for you two!
Yay for hope buddy. I'm happy for you as well. I wish I had your outlook at this time. I feel mine has taken a turn for the worse. I put the boundaries there, and it's for my protection, but I just feel cold. Not really any contact except to talk about my kid. I find I care less about what she's doing, or what she wants, which is healthier, but still painful.
Chris - thanks for the encouragement.
The endorphine rush is pretty nice, but there is apprehension in everything now - that will be a part of me for a long time.
I still consider her a WW. The OM is very good with words, and her heart is still pulling in two directions.
JGUY linked to the lighthouse story in the last post in the second thread. I think she saw the lighthouse in the last couple weeks, but refused to acknowledge it was there. She's realizing the light is stronger than before, she's got to learn to trust it.
I have to keep focused on keeping the light bright. That means continue to divorce bust. And continue my journey.
My achilles has stopped hurting when I get up the morning. Time to work on getting back into the running. I have a 5k in March that I want to run!
Here is my very quick suggestion.
Do not do this on your own.
You need counseling and a lot of support,
the biggest mistake you can make is taking her back to easily without any boundaries set in place.
There can be NO CONTACT with the OM.
As long as he is in the picture she just gave you a
bunch of words that you can not believe, to reel you
back in and insure that that she still has back up plans.
The axiom believe none of what they say and half of what they do still applies.
Actions not words.
Awesome, Dude!
This was exactly what I wanted to see this morning!
Cadet,
I hear you.
I told her what needed to happen last night - NC, access to her phone, counseling for her, and then counseling for us.
She still insinuates that the problem was between US, and not the OM. So, she still has lots of self-discovery on her part.
I sense a lot of shame, insecurity, and inadequacy.
Like my addiction, her shame needs to turn into regret. Shame meant that I was broken, and that something was always wrong with me. Regret means my actions were wrong, but I'm still a person, who isn't broken forever. Regret can be dealt with, and we both said 'I'm sorry' to each other, with integrity and sincerity.
Mowgli,
Thought about you this weekend - how you were able to turn things around. How your wife felt a bit ashamed of how deep she went down the rabbit hole, and how the OM wasn't anything worth pursuing.
I've detached enough to be able to take this MUCH slower than what I wanted to first. There are now things that I WANT to do, by myself. I still have my bed in the basement, which is where I want to be right now. I'm still going to counseling.
What a ride. I'll update things in a day or two and let you all in on what my WW does/says.
She still insinuates that the problem was between US, and not the OM. So, she still has lots of self-discovery on her part.
She's right to an extent... If there wasn't problems in the R, or if she didn't feel there were problems in the R, then she wouldn't have felt justified in her choice to have an A in the first place, right?
OM is a symptom of the problem, not THE problem. That being said, that symptom can longer be a part of this process if the M is to get healthy.
my W struggled with that right away, too. She asked for a little bit of time because she wanted to find the words to tell him. I know some would give that time, but I chose to stand my ground on it. This has come up a few times since, where W has felt pressured when A questions have come up. "I've done everything on your timeline" is what she says. Fair enough; I asked for it to end right then and there and she did, our C doesn't want us discussing the A outside of sessions anyways.
just be aware of the boundaries you are setting and stick to them. This will be part of that foundation you're building for a new R.
I agree with Cadet, BTW
G
That's great news to hear Trumpet. It gives me some hope for my sitch. Also good to hear you say you plan to take it slow. Excellent idea.
My high from the weekend is wearing off every hour I'm at work.
Is there a little trust there for WW? Yes.
Trust, but verify? Yes Yes.
I think she's scared that I'm going to walk away from it all now. And she HAS to have that fear. I put it there. I have to think and act as if I'm ready to be done.
I told her last nice I'm choosing her, and choosing to keep the relationship going. She has to make that choice every day. Mowgli, I remember you saying the same thing when you reconciled.
I sent her an email this morning saying that I was happy she made a choice to stay and build something new with me. That's the first email I've sent her in a week, and probably one of 3 in the last 2 weeks. She said she's scared, but wants to see where we can take the marriage now.
I'll continue to give her space, but insist on NC, and access to her phone.
She called for counseling over the weekend.
Well, a new rabbit hole just opened up - let's see what's down this one...
Encouraging words for sure. Each day of NC between me and WW feels like more distance grows, which is probably a good thing. But at the same time I think she may feel I've pushed her away. I guess time will tell.
It will take time... Remember that and don't rush!
validate and don't keep track. Don't let her use your past problems against you unless they continue to be issues. Same with you; You can't hold this over her head.
If she's ready to work, she has to show you that. That is where the trust will come from.
Remember, this is a NEW M, not the old one. Stay firm on your personal boundaries and keep doing the things that got you here because they are part of who you are and who you want yourself to become.
It's good to keep her a little at arms length for right now, I think. Let her pursue you for a while. She needs to prove, and you need to see proof that this isn't just words talking.
Just remember, there's things she needs to see from you as well, so when you start feeling loved, you need to be able to make her feel loved, too.
My counseling session was very good.
I hadn't seen her in a while - going to the addictions counselor, and he was helping the M sitch.
The female counselor really liked what I had discovered in the last couple weeks, about myself and my wife.
She stressed, like you Mowgli, to remain humble, and realize to keep working hard on my side of the street. Never convict the wife - if she is truly sorry, she will show it, and want to work on the relationship. From what I can see, she's convicting herself just fine. When I show compassion, from a place of strength, and she shows it in kind, the trust will grow. She might not be able to right away, and need more proof that trumpet is a changed, and consistent trumpet.
Mowgli, you have been awesome to blog with. I want to thank you so much for putting your time into me. It is sooo appreciated.
If things continue to improve, I'm going to have to call Divorce Busting, and thank MWD for her help. It really was, out of all the advise I got, the way to make rescue my marriage.
Trumpet,
YOU were worth putting time into. Look at where you are and how far you've come!
Feeling a bit deflated today.
Wife is talkative with me, but not about the R... which is fine, however...
She still has not called the divorce lawyer and pulled the filing. She said she's not going to serve, but hasn't made the call.
Also, she still hasn't talked to OM. While she hasn't contacted him in a couple days, she's hesitating to call/email/text him and tell him it's over.
She told me again this morning that I could have access to her phone, but I don't want to snoop if I don't have to - I want her to make the effort, to have the action of reconciliation.
She's happy to have me back as a happy roommate. I'm not happy with that.
Should I keep my appointment with the divorce lawyer? Should I pay the retainer? I don't want to.
I know we need to go slow. Should I be happy with her talking to me and not much action from her?
She reminded me it's been two days. I just expressed some frustration. Can I ask for action? How much is too much?
Have you ever read pursuit and distance?
You may now be in this dance.
STOP
Cadet,
Found the thread. I'll re-read it now.
Thanks for the help.
Cadet,
After taking a look on Pursuit and Distance, and finding a characteristic chart on Emotional Pursuit/Distance, I'm more in the Pursuer category, while my wife is more of a distancer.
About two-thirds is pursuit for me, and two-thirds distancer for my wife.
One of the counselors, the female I saw on Monday, and who saw us originally, said that our roles did seem 'flipped' from what she normally sees. I think she might have been thinking along these lines. I'm not emotionally distant - I'm actually much more able to talk about my emotions. It's really difficult for my wife. It's better to bottle and tell no one what she thinks. She wants me to make the choices when we go out - hates making choices. In fact, she refuses to go to Subway, because there are too many choices. Won't grocery shop with me, and wants me to do all the big shopping - too many choices, to much to analyze.
My first thought after my frustration this morning, and now after reading this, is to go right back to DB'ing in full. Get back to no pursuit, and get back to having no expectations on the R.
How do we stop the cycle? How do I get my wife to realize her part without just coming out and telling her? I realize I've been the 'fixer' for years, and through all of this, she has to fix her side of the street.
How do we stop the cycle?
Stop pursuing.
Let her pursue YOU
And don't TELL her anything let your actions speak for your words
After taking a look on Pursuit and Distance, and finding a characteristic chart on Emotional Pursuit/Distance, I'm more in the Pursuer category, while my wife is more of a distancer.
...
How do we stop the cycle? How do I get my wife to realize her part without just coming out and telling her? I realize I've been the 'fixer' for years, and through all of this, she has to fix her side of the street.
I am in exactly the same place, Trumpet. Looking for answers to exactly the same questions. See my
post from yesterday for my extended thoughts on this.
Given what I know now, if I was dating my W and we weren't married and didn't have children, I would have no hesitation in breaking up and moving on. It is just so clear to me now that I need someone who can come to the table and make a genuine effort to tend to the R. When I'm the only one tending to it, there is no R. It is just me relating to myself.
Of course, being in a M with children is different. Letting the old M burn to the ground is really hard. Creating the space for your W to realize on her own what she is missing requires not pursuing anymore. Pursuing is such a hard habit to break! But this habit of pursuing is exactly what needs to burn down and is the part that we are responsible for. I can see that now, and it sounds like you can too.
I think you pursue IF and ONLY IF she has taken the first step to recovery which is NO CONTACT with OM.
In your situation both you AND definitely your wife feel your porn problems are pretty much equal to adultery. In such situations in particular, I think a betrayed husband needs to pursue even more and even harder. See how she reacted when you grabbed her into your arms and kissed her passionately. She melted.
This isn't YOU competing with or against OM. OM was a surrogate or poor substitute for what you wife always wanted and wished for from you. If you swoop your wife off her feet she's not gonna care one bit about OM (after withdrawal).
I'm not a fan of saying you want to recover your marriage and then taking trips by yourself (when both you and your struggling wayward are struggling). Take the road trip together. Get some marriage material on CD (something other than WMD so you don't lead her back her to your support group)....and listen to the material in the car. Pause and discuss. The longer the trip the better - as your wife is going through withdrawal and needs all the support and accountability she can get as she white knuckles her way through wondering what OM is doing, thinking and saying.
No Contact is the primary objective. There is just so much pressure and anxiety for your wife to try to continue the relationship as friends or have risky "closure contact" that this is a very difficult objective to achieve. IF she has closure contact you want her to tell you about it immediately. IF OM calls or seeks her out in public she needs to know what is expected of her (don't say anything because it's easier to explain than trying to recall a conversation that you simply won't believe and call you immediately).
You should be instructing her that a "no contact" letter is mandatory as an outward verifiable indication (ACTION) that she is genuinely "choosing you".
If she refuses - then you back off - stop pursuing - let her pursue you (she'll ask why you are backing off and you'll simply come back to "recovery can't begin until 'no contact' so though you still appreciate her delaying, her "choosing you" really isn't believable until she ends it with him OFFICIALLY. A no contact letter and letting you help her be accountable is the first step. Other than that it's just words.
Trust none of what she says, and only have of what she does.
Those words I need to continue to remember.
I do want action - to see action. Am I impatient? Probably, and I need to just take one step forward - little steps.
However, I need reassurance that what she's saying just isn't lip service.
I can stop pursuit - and like before, she's likely to think something is up, that I don't want to be a part of the relationship. But I DO - it's just that we have to change this pursuit/distancer relationship, and my wife has to realize things are very different now - a couple comments last night and this morning all point to my wife wanting to go back to the old, without having to put work into it.
Relationships should be easy to her. She kept telling me in college, when we were friends, that all her boyfriends got boring after 3 months, so she'd dump them. Literally had a dozen serious boyfriends before I came along. Did each one pursue her, and then stopped once they had a relationship? Did she love the infatuation stage of love, but then tired of the work?
I'm beginning to realize that all those relationships were a pre-curser to what I'm dealing with now. My wife needs to find the skills necessary to build a lasting relationship. So do I, of course, but after almost 3 months, and now thousands of dollars later in counseling, I see things pretty clear, and my wife just notices when I stop pursuing, and when I start pursuing, is back to distancing herself.
The kisses were nice the other night - but it's like she said "Hey, I gave you something, now chase me, and maybe, just maybe, you'll get more." I've done this dance, and she's never delivered. The affection is on her timetable, and when she feels like it. There is no giving of herself, she's closed and protected, in case the hurt comes back, and then she can say "See, I told you, he's a jerk/abuser/inconsiderate, so my original fears are realized, I'll pull away to protect myself, and wall my feelings off so I don't get hurt."
I know I need to focus on myself - This self-actualization might take her a while. Do I live without what I need in the relationship for that long?
I'm committed to my marriage and my wife, and I have forgiven her. Again, every day I need to forgive her. But I ran back to the woman I love, just to realize she doesn't have the skills needed to emotionally keep me in the game.
Asking her to find those emotions, those skills, isn't going to be taken very well. I can't fix my wife - never could, although I tried. She's always nagged to try to fix me. A counselor would make headway, a trusted friend could help, but right now, all her trusted friends were the ones to tell her to dump me and move on.
How to bring a WW to see what the truth is. I'm not asking her to feel and see the away I view our relationship - she's got her own set of eyes. How to get her to grow. How to tell her what I need, but her not seeing it as a cut on her, but me wanting more of her.
I hear some of you telling me to work on GAL'ing more. Just trying to find a balance between GAL'ing while trying to repair the marriage with a wife who, to me, is half-trying.
Trumpet,
First, congratulations on getting to this point. Second, I want to say that I am no expert but I have READ A TON on here for the past 2 years; I hope to achieve your levels of success in the future as my situation may be turning around as we speak (similar timeframes). I hope the other Vets can chime in on here as well as I am not familiar with your entire situation and as I read your post, I see a lot of RED flags out here and I’d love to just say, SLOW DOWN!!!! And please don’t take anything personally; I have nothing but respect for anyone here trying to save their marriage.
“I do want action - to see action. Am I impatient? Probably, and I need to just take one step forward - little steps.
However, I need reassurance that what she's saying just isn't lip service.”
I’ve heard it over and over again. You didn’t get to this point over night, you cant expect it to get better overnight, let alone a weekend. Patience. Slow down. Get you confidence back. Your wife has chosen to be with you and try and make this work. Learn to believe in yourself. And you need reassurance??? Honestly, getting to this point in DBing, I would have hope you understood that reassurance is neediness and is in no way ATTRACTIVE to your wife. Back off and let her pursue you…I don’t want to see it go the other way because of too much pressure from your end.
“I can stop pursuit - and like before, she's likely to think something is up, that I don't want to be a part of the relationship. But I DO - it's just that we have to change this pursuit/distancer relationship, and my wife has to realize things are very different now - a couple comments last night and this morning all point to my wife wanting to go back to the old, without having to put work into it.”
Trust me; you are still here after everything. She KNOWS you want to be part of this relationship. You have taken actions. Stop speaking and assuming her thoughts; continue to let your actions speak for you and continue working on yourself.
“I'm beginning to realize that all those relationships were a pre-curser to what I'm dealing with now. My wife needs to find the skills necessary to build a lasting relationship. So do I, of course, but after almost 3 months, and now thousands of dollars later in counseling, I see things pretty clear, and my wife just notices when I stop pursuing, and when I start pursuing, is back to distancing herself.”
As I listen to you write this, I cringe. “My wife needs to….” Give her time. How long did it take you to get to this level of understanding of relationships? It took 15 plus years before you realized you needed work and improvement on your end. Be PATIENT.
“The kisses were nice the other night - but it's like she said "Hey, I gave you something, now chase me, and maybe, just maybe, you'll get more." I've done this dance, and she's never delivered. The affection is on her timetable, and when she feels like it. There is no giving of herself, she's closed and protected, in case the hurt comes back, and then she can say "See, I told you, he's a jerk/abuser/inconsiderate, so my original fears are realized, I'll pull away to “protect myself, and wall my feelings off so I don't get hurt."
Isn’t DBing more of what works and less of what doesn’t? You’ve done this dance before and she continues to never deliver. So what can you do differently this time? “The affection is on her timetable..” I’m still uncertain about your level of understanding of what a WW goes through. You are fresh out of an affair and you seem to have expectations of “normalcy” based on your writing. Its not going to happen that fast and you have to trust the process of allowing her time to grieve her relationship with the OM. She will go through those “what if” moments and it will hurt you to know that she is experiencing them, but you have to understand that its part of the healing process and part of the cycle in order to get to full reconciliation. Be the bigger person here and stop making it all about you and your needs right now. Keep yourself occupied so that you don’t look for her to fill all of your needs; right now, she will not even come close and you are going to set yourself up for failure because you are mentally creating expectations in your mind already and those expectations are clearly not being met…
“I know I need to focus on myself - This self-actualization might take her a while. Do I live without what I need in the relationship for that long?”
Again, I cringe reading this. I believe you know the answer to this already. You wouldn’t be here typing if you weren’t willing to live in the relationship for that long without what it is you need. Marriage is the ultimate selflessness commitment. Get in that mindset and stop being “selfish”. How long was your wife in this relationship without her getting what she needed??? The Waywardness choices are on her without a doubt, but you have to change your mindset…
“I'm committed to my marriage and my wife, and I have forgiven her. Again, every day I need to forgive her. But I ran back to the woman I love, just to realize she doesn't have the skills needed to emotionally keep me in the game.”
After reading this; I am convinced that you still have a long way to go and are nowhere close to where you believe you are in relationships, validation, empathy, compassion, and understanding. Do you understand the meaning of forgiveness and what it actually consists of? If so, whats the need to forgive her every day? That’s exactly the opposite of forgiveness because that means every day, you wake up and hold her actions against her and then have to forgive her again. That is the opposite of what needs to happen for a fully restored M.
“Asking her to find those emotions, those skills, isn't going to be taken very well. I can't fix my wife - never could, although I tried. She's always nagged to try to fix me. A counselor would make headway, a trusted friend could help, but right now, all her trusted friends were the ones to tell her to dump me and move on.”
Everything you wrote right there would be considering pursuing. I believe the consensus from everyone here is to stop the pursuing, even at the stage you are at.
“How to bring a WW to see what the truth is. I'm not asking her to feel and see the away I view our relationship - she's got her own set of eyes. How to get her to grow. How to tell her what I need, but her not seeing it as a cut on her, but me wanting more of her.”
YOUR ENTIRE MINDSET HERE IS WRONG. How do I get her to do this? How do I get her to do that? All WRONG. You are not crossing the line into controlling her and nothing positive will come with that mindset. What did it take for you to be honest with yourself, self-reflect, and then take action to make you a better man? Self-realization is the only thing that will get her there for the changes to stick. It was the same with you, and it will be the same with her. Understand that and learn to let go of the outcome for right now.
“I hear some of you telling me to work on GAL'ing more. Just trying to find a balance between GAL'ing while trying to repair the marriage with a wife who, to me, is half-trying.”
I can’t help to say this again, but you have a lot to learn still. Your perception is that your wife is half trying. How accurate is that? You are assuming that she is half trying because she’s not doing what you are doing. Don’t you understand that she is not where you are at mentally and emotionally? I thought you knew that she has emotionally divorced you years before she chose her Waywardness…Don’t make saving your M your entire world. You will smother her and yourself. Understand this is a slow process and be patient with her; no pressure for her. You have everything you need right now. She chose you and wanted to work on the marriage; enjoy that moment and be grateful for that.
I’d also advise you to real ALL of Sandi2’s threads on the WW (6 threads). You will have a better understanding of what you are dealing with. This will take 2 plus years to get back on track…patience is your new best friend. The more you push because you aren’t getting your needs met, the more you pressure her into not being enough and reinforce her decision of Waywardness. Back off, GAL, and enjoy the moments with her and your family. Stop worrying about the outside negative influences. Be supportive of her and continue to learn more about empathy and validation. I’m proud of where you are at and hopefully, I will be there soon.
npmyst,
Thanks for the 2 X 4, brother.
My frustrations are telling, huh?
I enjoyed being detached. Without expectation of my wife doing anything for me. Absolutely none. I was my world, and only my kids were the other ones I needed to make sure were OK. Would I talk with her? NO, didn't need it.
Well, now she says she does want to work at the relationship. With that, comes some level of cooperation. Effort. From the reading I've done, it's a lot of big see-saw action in this first month or two. Our desires turn into expectations. When my wife was full-on wayward, I learned that she was a different woman than I married. The spew I heard still rings in my ears, but I boxed that for now.
I let myself back into wanting more from my wife, since she stated she wanted to start the work to reconcile. My wanting more really hinged on 3 things in the last 48 hours: NC, in letter or if she called (I was ok with whatever), calling the lawyer to stop the D, and getting some counseling.
My desire for this was for it to happen quickly. Waiting 2 days, not telling me you've done those things really puts a wet blanket on my hopes.
I did do something stupid, and called her at work. Wasn't a great conversation, but she did admit she's done those three things, but 'none of them called me back'. My level of trust is at an all-time low. I expected some communication on the issue, so that I could feel like the reconciliation could go forward, just telling me she made the calls would have been nice.
I feel like I came out of my cave, in hopes spring has come, and it did for a day or so, and now I've got to get back into my cave and keep working on myself with no drive to meet my wife halfway in anything. I can truly detach, but tried to help the sitch.
Will reconcilation look like me still GAL'ing, and my wife doing all the work? That's what many have alluded to here.
Georgia Bulldog, your advice to pursue is contrary to the other advice I've gotten. I see that you know my sitch pretty well, and that my addiction puts us both in the betrayer category. I'm just trying to integrate what you're saying into npmyst's views, as well as Zues's, Sandi's, and others.
The more I thought that the light at the end of the tunnel was my wife wanting to stop the D and work on us, the more I see it as just a fencepost that I passed on the road of my life.
I'm so so so frustrated.
Should I keep my appt. with the attorney? I'm going to have to pass him some money, since my hour on the phone with him was my 'freebie'. $2,500 retainer. My wife sees it as a huge threat, which I can understand. But shouldn't I protect myself? The divorce was filed, but not served.
So confused. Sitting on my hands [censored].
Why not retain after you're served?
Don't have any expectations until she gives you reasons for them. they will only end up hurting you if things go south.
You have to be able to SEE action, not just hear it. Access to her phone is great, that's action. calling a MC for both of you is action.
If you're serious about not going back to the old M, make sure you're maintaining your boundaries;
This is when she'll start to test them to see how serious you are.
Remember, too, that she's sitting on the fencepost. She has 60 day until the paperwork expires. My guess is she's counting down those days just like you are...That's not "I'm willing to work on this" that, to me says "I'm willing to give this some time to see."
Mowgli,
Thanks.
I'll cancel the appt. with the lawyer.
Yes, expectations. The reason I'm in the situation. The reason most of us are, right? We don't give our spouses what they want, what they desire, which in a relationship become unspoken expectations. When we get hurt, we get angry, and take it out on our spouse. They in turn return the anger. The cycle starts. For my wife and I, we were great at taking our hurt and turning it into sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness.
I will need to be mentally and emotionally strong enough to break this relationship at any time. Both times I have been given hope, I get sucked into the marriage vortex.
I'm going to have to really lower the bar on my expectations. Maybe just being able to say 'hello', 'have a great day', and 'goodnight' to my wife. I was much happier when I had distance between her and I.
So then keep the distance for now until you're getting your R needs met, or you're seeing that she's attempting to meet those needs.
To quote Friar Laurence from Romeo and Juliet: Wisely and slow. They stumble that run fast.
Well, she did break it off with OM yesterday.
The first time she did it, she was ornery and upset.
She got home last night, sent me a text she was going to bed, and the kids were mine to deal with.
She's still ornery this morning, and did tell me she talked with OM. Broke it off.
I trust the anger inside her - that seems to say she's hurting, which is what I expected on Monday. It's weird that anger and bitterness is what I come to expect, but it shows she's hurting from the loss.
I didn't like the phone conversation yesterday, but my wife saying she was going to break it off, and then her actually doing it, that I know was going to be tough. I pushed a little, but if she sincerely wants to start us up, she's got to start to let OM go.
I let her spew a little this morning while I made lunches for the kids. Made my lunch, she made hers, and I told her to have a great day.
No expectations of any calls or conversations. No expectations from me putting pressure on her. She'll have to work through the loss.
I'm hanging my hat on the feelings and emotions we felt together on Sunday. It was the really old, 1st 6 months of marriage 'us' - the great us. Passion and wanting to be with each other. I say 'we', but I really mean 'I'. From what I could tell, my wife felt the same way. Trusting what I saw then. Trusting the hurt I see now.
No expectations. Time to get back on the treadmill - my achilles hasn't hurt in 3 days, so I think it's safe to start walking. Really want to run a shamrock 5k in 2 months.
Does anyone have some rules to live by when trying to reconcile/piece? We should come up with a 37 rules by Sandi for piecing.
Patience, and taking it slow would be on the top of the list.
Does anyone have some rules to live by when trying to reconcile/piece? We should come up with a 37 rules by Sandi for piecing..
This!! I need this right now, too!
I think you're doing well. I'm happy for you. We can all give you advice but nobody here, or anywhere, knows you and your specific situation better than you, and WW, do. If something works for you then do that.
Sometimes we BS's over-180 the thing. We detach but forget that the reason we were here in the first place was to SAVE the marriage. The WS comes out of their fog and reaches out to us to work on the R and we're too detached. Nope, not interested. That doesn't help anything. The point of doing the DB'ing is to B the D. To get the walkaway or wayward spouse to come back to the table, choose the marriage, and want to work to save the marriage. In other words, that's when the DB'ing has worked and now you go into marriage building mode. That's a different website. ;-)
You're doing great and you got the desired results from DB'ing. Don't over-DB or you'll damage these fledgling new developments. This much be nurtured. Take is slow but with a committed desire from both of you to stay together, work together, heal, and move forward.
Everything that is happening right now is perfectly normal for a breakup like that.
Sit back and watch.
You can't fix her or anything else.
Lets see if it sticks and keep your boundaries in place.
You don't want to become OM #2 by rescuing or fixing.
Patience, and taking it slow would be on the top of the list.
This should be the main goal of EVERYONE and EVERY situation here. I don't think this can be stressed enough. Lord knows there were many times I thought I understood the meaning of "patience" yet to be smacked with reality over and over again...
npmyst,
I am a fixer, I think I am right, and therefore, work at my speed!
Life, and relationships, work as a dance. I keep wanting to do the jig, my wants to just listen to the music right now.
She'll hopefully get on the dancefloor soon. I have to learn that it's ok to dance by myself.
Thinking of making a standing offer to go out for a coffee with her soon. No date, no planning, just a standing offer. A few minutes away from the kids, so she can talk about her day with me. If I was in her shoes, that might be a good first step.
I'm going to wait until I see some of the pain fade. Maybe I'll let her know on Friday or this weekend.
SOOOO wishing the 'edit' button was back in effect.
My WIFE wants to just listen to music.
Most of you probably made the mental fix. Thanks!
Boundary: NC
Boundary: Access to her email/phone
THEN we can start to reconcile. Going to take time. Going to give her time.
She gave me access to her phone yesterday if I want it. I told her I didn't need to see it. Didn't look.
Yesterday I found she had moved pictures of OM to her email account from work.
I called her and called her out on that yesterday - she says it's part of her 'process of letting go'... and hung up on me.
Last night, didn't want to talk with me. Angry again this morning. She did say 'have a nice day' when I told her to have a nice day.
Just double-checked this morning, and she changed her password on her yahoo email... ugh.
I did make the call, and she says she's sick of me 'spying on her'... I explained that was something I needed to have happen, we talked on Sunday about it, and if she put herself into my shoes what would it look like?
"It would look like I'm trying to hide something."
Bingo.
I truly don't want to have to enforce my boundary... but do I just stop snooping? She's trying to break up 'easy', which happens often from all the postings around here.
I told her she sounds upset at me, and that it's ok.
Struggling with my wife who said on Sunday I can have full access, and she's even willing to leave the house now, to where she's changing her passwords to cover her tracks.
We can't start to heal if this stuff is still going on. My telling her that I'm hurt my her actions just makes her get more angry at me.
I told her a rock-solid marriage is built upon trust and honesty. It's also built upon communication that is clear - this is something we both desperately need to work on, but I don't want to put too much on her plate. Just trust and honesty. Start clean... we have baggage, and if I was in a new relationship, the trust would start higher - it just would.
Struggling to explain to my wife why I need NC without sounding demanding. Should I just stop asking for transparancy, and let her do her 'thing', even if the EA starts up again?
Sooo struggling with this today.
You are 100% right in that you cannot begin to reconcile until OM is out of the picture completely. The fact that she is hiding stuff and changing passwords tells me that unfortunately she is not ready to let go of OM. I've been through this dance before and what you describe about your W is spot on with how my W acted at first. If she was serious about giving the M another try she should be more that happy to give you complete access to everything and not get defensive when you question her. At this point you should not be concerned with sounding demanding in regards to NC on her part IMO.
She will do what she chooses to do, you have no control over that unfortunately.
Indigo1,
Thank you for posting - it's nice to hear from another person who did the 'dance'.
She's saying a lot of things I hear other spouses say - 'You're not hurting like me! You don't know what this is like for me! Am I going to be spied upon for the rest of my life? I've said I'm sorry already - why do we have to keep doing this? I feel like I'm constantly under your prying eyes!'... and on, and on.
She's free to do whatever she wants - I can't stop her.
If she wants the marriage to begin again, no contact, and transparency was on the top my of list of things that had to happen, as well as counseling for her, and marriage counseling for us.
She has the appointment on Friday. From everthing that has happened in the last week, I don't have high expectations. I just hope she doesn't blow up at the therapist and leave. She did set it up.
A friend of mine said to just let it lie, and give her space, which means don't spy at all. If she wants to make the M work, she'll give access. She's a smart cookie, and she knows how to delete and move things around. I'm not trying to 'catch' her, but with no trust there, we have to build it some way, shape, or form.
I probably need to be ready for her to turn the divorce clock back on. This is tough.
You are probably in the most critical or fragile stage of all.
She says she 'wants to give it a shot', but the difference is that she is committed as well.
Doesn't it have to be one of the other?
She still insinuates that the problem was between US, and not the OM. So, she still has lots of self-discovery on her part.
I understand the point of view about the problem existing before the OM, however, if she's trying to find a loophole to continue contacting OM as a "friend", stop it in its tracks.
She wants me to make the choices when we go out - hates making choices. In fact, she refuses to go to Subway, because there are too many choices. Won't grocery shop with me, and wants me to do all the big shopping - too many choices, to much to analyze.
The concern related to your M is that your WW may not feel she can make a choice between you and OM......and thus, try to hang on to both of you (keeping OM a secret, of course).
I realize I've been the 'fixer' for years, and through all of this, she has to fix her side of the street.
As long as you continue to be the fixer in the R, she won't feel the need to do it herself. If you tell her this is her mess and she has to clean it up.....then she is more likely to start doing the work.
Trumpet, I am just catching up on your sitch right now.
Spying is not going to help, if she is still in touch with OM your behavior will just make her take it further undercover. Fake emails, a second phone, you really can never know. I think changed behavior sustained over time will be your only way to know.
I think you are at a critical turning point here, I am eager to hear how this works out. I wish I could advise you but I will leave that to the vets who know what they are talking about.
Fo,
Thanks for catching up. Yes, very critical juncture.
Just don't want to screw it up. Patience is flashing in my brain constantly.
Maybe patience is letting the OM die a slow death? Or maybe she goes back to him? I just hate dipping my toe in the water, and the wife does, and then she pulls it. How many times do we do the dance? Do I stop doing the dance until she's hip deep in water, and then put a toe in the water?
At first, I wanted to jump in, did jump in, and asked her to join me. That didn't work. I dried off, and then she did dip her toe in the water, but when I wasn't looking, pulled it out and put her socks back on.
Patience, little trumpet. Patience.
So how Will you respond to this, Trumpet?
She said you can have access, then changes her password? pretty strong action there I would say.
Never Forget Rule #1
You can't reconcile until W goes NC with OM. Even then you have to give it time.
She says she needs time, but how much time are you willing to give?
She's fence sitting again which it sounds like she's pretty good at.
So what's your plan from here on out?
Do you push the issue to get a reaction or do you continue to GAL and do your thing?
Nice truth dart about asking her what she would think, BTW
here's the big thing to remember:
if she wants to continue to contact OM, there is nothing, NOTHING you can do about it. You can only decide how you will respond to it.
Here's what I would do:
don't have that conversation with her. She'll tell you when its over with him.
detach. YOU will not put up with her continuing to play you that way.
keep up the GAL.
detaching and GALing was working for you; do what works.
As long as she fights transparency and claims you are snooping or spying on her, she's not ready. If she has nothing to hide, she should not have any problem with her H having access to her messages. To me, it's that simple, and until you have her 100% cooperation in the transparency.....she has another person in the M.
When a person is transparent, you aren't spying, right?
Mowgli,
Thanks.
GAL'ing will be back for me. It never left, but I had been doing a few things to try to show the wife I was committed to reconciliation. I will interact with her a bit more than a full detachment - to show I'm in the relationship, but I'm not going to hang out with her. That was something I was considering - 'hey, let's watch some TV, let's go for a walk, let's go for a coffee'... but I think those things are on hold until I get proof, and consistent proof, that it's over.
good! and if she asks "what's up?" you need to be completely honest. You are protecting yourself here and I don't think there's anything wrong with telling her that you can't be fully committed to this if she isn't, either.
She asked for time, why shouldn't you need time as well? The paperwork is still in limbo; it's not like she retracted it or something.
It's not snooping or spying on her .... it's holding her accountable.
If she doesn't want to be held accountable for her promises and assurances to you - then you're just left presuming she's still having her affair and you have no reason to snoop or spy because you know what you know.
As far as this her moving pictures around and acting like she needs to detach from OM slowly ---- that's kind of like an alcoholic saying he/she needs to just finish out the liquor in the liquor cabinet or hang out in a few bars drinking soda because they miss the camaraderie of the bar before they actually quit drinking.
I feel some of this all comes down to proper "framing". You aren't "pursuing" her when you check up on her and hold her accountable. Instead you are ATTEMPTING to team up with her and solve/work on a JOINT issue. The joint issue is - both of you aren't in love with each other but we have children together and we took forever vows so "WE" need to see if "WE" can make this work before throwing in the towel. As you told her AND the kids the other day ---- "it looks like we are divorcing". I'm not your keeper. The cage door is wide open. Go be with OM and continue making the biggest mistake of your life OR end it with OM once and for all (which you fully understand is a difficult thing to do), and commit to working with you (TOGETHER) to rebuild/build a marriage of extraordinary care.
The reframe the boundaries as a joint boundary around your seedling of a marriage recovery. No contact with OM is the foundation but you can frame that too as the three foundational pillars of initial recovery - honesty/truth/accountability.*
****edit to add - Stumbling through "no contact" is common. It's a mistake for her to have closure contact at all but they sometimes just can't help themselves - it's more important that she shares her stumbles with you - in a timely manner - before you even look for it or find it. You TRY to indicate that when the urge comes upon her to call you instead or some other way to avoid the trigger response but no matter what you won't hate her if she simply tells you immediately and works with you to tie up the "no contact" loose ends even better. Remember too - OM could break "no contact" himself - so she needs to strategize WITH YOU HER ACCOUNTABILITY PARTNER how to handle that appropriately as well.
There is an opportunity here to lead by example. There are websites that you can register with that will monitor your web/internet activity and send your wife an email if you search or visit XXX porn website and material. You could sign up at one of those website to let her hold you accountable. Maybe instead you just put a key logger on your devices and have her set up a passcode you don't know. The power of accountability is NOT that your wife is going to be watching you 24/7. The power is people behave better when they know the are being (or could be) watched and/or their behavior is being recorded.
Accountability is one of the most beneficial (for self and society) roles of marriage. As society bifurcates more and more, there remains less persons for us, as individuals to be accountable to. It used to be you were accountable to your spouse, parents, grandparents and entire extended family as well as your neighbors, church, village and clan. Now people are so disconnected they can do pretty much whatever they want and no one in their extended network ever has to know or find out about it unless they just happen to stumble upon it. I heard some pretty weird and very private stories from families cleaning out the homes after a tragic sudden death of their single 20'-30' something children. It's probably one of the biggest reasons married people outlive single people - someone is holding you accountable for your behavior to some degree.
Mowgli,
Thanks.
GAL'ing will be back for me. It never left, but I had been doing a few things to try to show the wife I was committed to reconciliation. I will interact with her a bit more than a full detachment - to show I'm in the relationship, but I'm not going to hang out with her. That was something I was considering - 'hey, let's watch some TV, let's go for a walk, let's go for a coffee'... but I think those things are on hold until I get proof, and consistent proof, that it's over.
So it doesn't seem like pursuing and because you aren't absolutely sure of "no contact" yet....instead of being completely detached you might get the opportunity or feel like deploying a little trick I like to suggest in these situations.
Instead of asking her out on a date or anything you simply address it like this:
"The last few months have been super stressful for me and I'm sure you as well. I just need a night out. I need to escape this and just go and have some fun. Before all this heavy stuff we used to have fun together and I'd like to do that. No relationship talk or discussions about marriage - just a night out. Whatdaya say I get a sitter saturday night and we go downtown???"
Then - follow through. She's in withdrawal so she'll be running late and unable to get ready, feed the kids and arrange a sitter so you just handle all that stuff up front for her without comment. Then you take her out and anytime she tries to talk relationship or be heavy you LISTEN for a bit (don't pass up an opportunity to plant some seeds) but then stop her and indicate this night is break night from marital strife for both of you.
Waywards LOVE to escape reality. Most jump at the chance to go out and escape thinking about their life and predicament. Then, once out, if you back off they can't help themselves pursuing relationship conversations anyway. She'll be more attracted to the husband that wants to have fun and be like he was years ago when they first met than a mopey husband who's all pressuring her to commit and talking so serious all the time.
Added bonus - it'll be a few hours she won't be thinking about, texting, emailing or otherwise obsessing about OM. IF they are continuing the affair in some manner - OM won't like you taking his girlfriend out on the town and he can be the one getting all nervous, obsessive and jealous about your relationship with your wife.
It's a difficult balancing act to undertake. Not pursuing but yet somehow always around. No contact is just so essential that you can't just leave your wife adrift in the fog by herself to find her way home - but you also can't drag her out of the fog kicking and screaming. You have to be like a magician, distracting with one hand while the other one is pulling a pulling a tow line you hooked up to her boat under the water line. So remain as present as you can in her life without pursuing. The more time you can do this ALONE and without the children around the better. Her idle time is her riskiest time.
Georgia,
Awesome words of wisdom!
I use Covenant Eyes on my phone and PC... have since discovering the affair and quitting porn cold turkey. Day 76 for me - yay!
She knows this. She's getting reports. This did have an impact when she's willing and wanting to talk with me. Her interest in me was different - asking questions about me and abstaining from all sexual contact, including masturbation. My addiction is something I take seriously, but in the questions she asked, I could tell I moved up the respect ladder with her - and it got her thinking about intimacy with me. I repulsed her, as she always thought about me and porn.
She has her own issues with self-image, and very low libido. I'm working through my struggles, and praying that if God wants me to live in a sexless marriage, that I accept it, and continue to reconcile. It might just be that way - my wife sees no issue with zero intimacy. Yes, the Bible says this, that, all the marriage websites say to just do it, but to her, it's icky and gross, and she might not ever get over it. I have to accept that.
She has her own issues with self-image, and very low libido. I'm working through my struggles, and praying that if God wants me to live in a sexless marriage, that I accept it, and continue to reconcile. It might just be that way - my wife sees no issue with zero intimacy. Yes, the Bible says this, that, all the marriage websites say to just do it, but to her, it's icky and gross, and she might not ever get over it. I have to accept that.
I don't believe one word of that and I don't think you should either. The bible talks about mutual submission to one another. Withholding sex because she feels its icky is not acceptable in my eyes when its your job as a spouse to put your spouses needs before yours....i.e. Mutual Submission to one another.
I wouldn't accept it and you shouldn't either. I'm not saying she should turn into a sex addict, but she should respect you as a man and respect your needs.
God does not want you to live in a sexless marriage.
1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won't be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Could be her "icky and gross" comments are her excuses for her low self esteem. These issues will take time to resolve but of course she will want to resolve them in order to be helped.
npmyst,
In theory, yes, but to her, my needs have never been a priority.
Yes, I'd love to tell her that. It will come up in counseling, if we get there. But after lots of prayer, I realize that's my cross to bear to keep my vow, my word. Is her disregarding my emotional and physical needs a sin in my book? Yes. Did I disregard her needs for 15 years? Yes.
Her mom and dad have a 'wonderful' relationship, accord to my wife.
Her mom has been walking with a cane since she was 50. Never exercised. Did gastric bypass years ago, gained it all back. Worked part-time her whole life. Was emotionally abused as a kid by an alcoholic father. Lots of issues, including huge amounts of sarcasm and resentment.
My wife's father puts up with it all. Worked 2 jobs his whole life. Fixes a 150 year old queen-ann victorian house. Gets up 3 times a night to heat the house with a wood-burning stove. Drives her everywhere. He cooks, he cleans, he washes dishes, fixes the house, maintains the cars and house, works a full-time job after he retired. He does most of the laundry. He has always driven his mother and mother-in-law everywhere. His sister in law has never gotten her driving license - he drives her everywhere as well.
Do you know what she does? Spends money, watches tv, chats with my wife on facebook, and does a little charity work on the side. She does do some of the grociery shopping.
My wife sees this as the perfect relationship. The husband doing almost everything - the wife, doing what she wants. This is the desire for my wife - the perfect marriage, accord to her. That desire turned into expectations when we got married, and we had fireworks in our house in the first 3 months because of it. All her expectations not getting met meant she now has huge amounts of resentment towards me. I have told her she has unrealistic expectations... her comments point to 'So, I have high expectations? Shouldn't I? Shouldn't you be held to a high standard?'
Mutual submission isn't in my wife's vocabulary. It's sad, and if I want to have a fulfilling marriage, my wife would have to come around to thinking that she's 50% of the work behind getting us back to whole. I can't tell her that, and I know I have work to do on my side of the street.
So, I believe in marriage, and I believe keeping my vow. I also believe that I need to find happiness in my life, as I don't think my wife has the capability of providing it. But in a marriage, do you really want to rely on your spouse to provide all your happiness?
Maybe I'm a bit jaded and wallowing in a bit of pity today, but once I have a wife who's willing to work on us, then some of this can come out - in front of a counselor.
Submission sex isn't satisfactory to either party which ends up leading to resentment on both parties. He ends up wanting more enthusiastic better sex and she wants him to be happy she "submitted" and gave him sex at all (then later she tells OM that she felt raped).
IMO, sex either has to be a mutually enjoyable experience (or, at least, enjoyable for her) or it's just not worth it.
Sometimes the wives that don't like the icky'ness of it just need their husbands to wear a condom so there isn't any "mess" afterwards. They can just roll over and go to sleep while YOU go to the bathroom to "clean up" and flush the condom.
I apologize if I'm oversimplifying this complex issue. I've never really experienced this problem. But I can say the sex is much better in a recovered marriage when both of us are equally invested in meeting each others needs the way the other spouse likes those needs met.
She has her own issues with self-image, and very low libido. I'm working through my struggles, and praying that if God wants me to live in a sexless marriage, that I accept it, and continue to reconcile. It might just be that way - my wife sees no issue with zero intimacy. Yes, the Bible says this, that, all the marriage websites say to just do it, but to her, it's icky and gross, and she might not ever get over it. I have to accept that.
Unless there is a medical explanation for her "low libido", I would tend to think it's her excuse she has given you for a long time. I wasn't interested in having sex with my H, either. I blamed it on low libido, too. Funny thing, when I started my A, I discovered there was nothing wrong with my libido. I didn't want sex with my H b/c I wasn't emotionally connected or intimately connected and had did not feel attracted to him. It was as if my wiring had been clipped. OM comes along, and wham!
25yrsmlc said something that stuck with me. I had read men saying about the same thing and just thought that was how men felt, but she came along and said she would not consider staying in a sexless M. I have read others that said it is a form of abuse, for your S to tell you that they would simply not be having sex with you in the future. It's something to think about, Trumpet.
Are you really ready to face a future without any sex? And let me add this, too. I also learned that doctors can give a woman something to help her libido......if that truly is a problem for her. Like I said, a lot of women feel that way based on other issues in the MR.
Don't be too quick to think it's God plan or that you just have to accept this b/c your WW thinks sex is icky. She doesn't. She thinks it is icky with
you b/c the attraction is gone.
Update time.
Wife has made some effort to be friendly to me. I took the day off, and worked around the house, read a couple books, worked out.
Before we headed off to D14 and S12's band concert, I made supper. She seemed wanting to talk, so we chatted a bit. I mentioned about D7's flu shot tomorrow, and wife mentioned she might cancel, since it's so late in the year. I said I'd still be willing to take her, between some other appointments.
The last phrase did me in. She wanted to know about all my other appointments on my day off. I just said I was going a couple places. She continued to hound me for a few more minutes saying it wasn't fair that I wouldn't tell her where I was going.
The discussion boiled down to she's not OK with me having 'things' to do, and her not having full access to all my emails and phone records, if I keep on insisting she has to give up all her privacy. It's just not fair, and she won't do it. She feels like a 2 year old, and says she still hasn't retracted the divorce filing. She feels like I should have instantaneous trust and faith in her. That having her EA as a Facebook friend, and his number still in her phone (she said yes, she still had it in her phone) was something I'd have to deal with.
I asked her to swap roles for a bit, and would it be fair? She ended the conversation, and almost left the house before the concert. I told her to wait a minute, that the kids would want us to go as a family. We did.
I apologized for being a little passive agressive with my 'other appointments' comment. When we got home, I did spell out, minus a complete NC letter, what she had to do. NC, unfriend facebook, delete his phone number, you can't have that temptation there.
She's still acting as if I'm grounding her. I'm really trying to come at this from two angles - a solid boundary, but also since I have an addiction, explaining that I did a lot of damage to us, and these requirement will need to be done so that both of us can begin the huge work of building a new marriage. That I'm sorry I caused all the pain with my addiction.
She said she's getting tired of my apologies. She's apologized once before she went back to contacting OM, and apologized again on Sunday. I'm not asking for an apology back - not looking for it. I'm just showing her that I understand the pain I caused her. I guess I'll stop with any further apologies, as this is causing friction with us.
She says it's very hard to respect me. That to just give her lots of space. It's tough - giving her space, but not seeing any progress on OM front, and the D filing still open.
I keep thinking that my addiction took about 60 days to get clear of the urges. Would 60 days or so be enough time for WW to clear enough of the fog to start couples counseling? Should she need more space?
Her wanting to be all chummy with me, but no heavy lifting so far makes my brain sizzle a bit. I keep on thinking she's cake eating. Maybe it's not, but that's my gut.
Funny thing - D14 heard us talking in the kitchen, and heard my wife swear at me. I don't ever swear in return anymore. D14 got mad at her mom, and told her so. WW then said a couple biting words to D14, and left the room. D14 came over a few minutes later and gave me a hug and a kiss, and said she was siding for me on that little arguement. I told her no one is right or wrong on this one, but we're trying to work through a few things. It was just funny that D14 said something to mom - that's the second time in the last 3 months she has. No coaching, no nothing - showing that she understands the dynamics probably better than I do at times. I don't like that she sees it, but she is very happy we're trying to R.
That having her EA as a Facebook friend, and his number still in her phone (she said yes, she still had it in her phone) was something I'd have to deal with.
I think she is still trying to figure out a way to hide this information from you.
If she is acting like a teenager that is not a good sign.
Keep your boundaries in place.
Where did the talk of the no-contact letter come in to the conversation?
Did she come to you with remorse and regret, apologetic for the affair, at rock bottom, looking to do anything and everything she could to save the marriage?
Or are you trying to steer her down this road by showing her what you want from her?
No one should ever 'not agree' to a no-contact letter...because it shouldn't be suggested until you know they will say yes. Anything earlier than that is pursuit and controlling behavior. As is the constant apologizing. It is laced with expectation, either of her forgiveness, or her apologizing back, or of her to follow your lead now that you are a wise spiritual leader in the household in your own mind.
Again, not sure if she's done or said some things that led you to talking about NC letters and going out as a family, but from what I'm seeing she is not recommitting to the M, and anything she's said to that effect is manipulation from an addict to avoid consequences.
Where did the talk of the no-contact letter come in to the conversation?
Did she come to you with remorse and regret, apologetic for the affair, at rock bottom, looking to do anything and everything she could to save the marriage?
Or are you trying to steer her down this road by showing her what you want from her?
No one should ever 'not agree' to a no-contact letter...because it shouldn't be suggested until you know they will say yes. Anything earlier than that is pursuit and controlling behavior. As is the constant apologizing. It is laced with expectation, either of her forgiveness, or her apologizing back, or of her to follow your lead now that you are a wise spiritual leader in the household in your own mind.
Again, not sure if she's done or said some things that led you to talking about NC letters and going out as a family, but from what I'm seeing she is not recommitting to the M, and anything she's said to that effect is manipulation from an addict to avoid consequences.
I believe this is important to answer, Trumpet.
She won't write the letter. Sees no need.
I've asked. Heck, I told her she needs to, if we want to work on the marriage.
She said yes on Sunday, and she meant it. Was it a moment of weakness for her? I consider it a moment out of the fog.
From all I've read from Sandi, she is back in the fog. She'll be there a while. Her telling me she was going to call the lawyer and call everything off, call the OM and end it, and call for a counselor was met by me with happiness. That turned into concern when I didn't see it happen.
I hate having to have the R talk, but it needed to be done. She's got to be accountable for what she said on Sunday. We hashed things out last night, but she still hasn't over-the-top willingly wanted to do anything.
For this, I think I've been played a bit.
She wants the conversation, the texts from me, the phone calls, since she's not talking to OM, but really, she just keeps trying me on for size.
I have told her 3 times this week that in order for US to reconcile, these things have to happen. She greets those requests with disrespect, including eye rolls, huffing, and trying to end the conversations with 'bye trumpet' or 'we're done talking'. 'You're treating me like a 2 year old!'.
This tells me her heart is still with OM, and we still need space. How much conversation do I do with her, when she's still struggling?
She started wearing her ring on Sunday. Hasn't taken it off. I continue to say hello in the morning, and talk with her when she gets home, esp. in front of the kids.
My expectations just don't meet up with reality. I'm focused on gaining patience and waiting it out, I just get concerned when my wife says she wants to begin to heal, and does a couple of things, but then doesn't want to talk about the relationship ('I'm tired of talking about it'), and doesn't do the things I've asked.
I did explicitly state she needs to delete OM from her phone and email, all pictures, so there is no temptation last night.
She won't write the letter - she's already heard from our pastor a month ago, on the first go-around, that the letter wasn't something worth doing. So, she can always bring up that.
Trumpet, look around here. You are in a better place than most. It sounds to me as if your wife is questioning, and that is a good thing.
Patience is key for you now. Do not push anything. Continue doing what brought you here.
I have a good feeling that she will break out of the fog.
I disagree. I don't think asking for a "no contact letter" is pursuing or controlling. It's just a smart way for Trumpet's wife to put her money where her mouth is (when she said "I choose you").
With a wayward wife is this kind of situation (where the betrayed husband already made it apparent they weren't going to kick her to the curb where she'd have to fight to get back in the home/family/marriage) there is seldom - "she came to me remorseful and regretful and apologetic for the affair, at rock bottom and looking to do anything and everything she can to save the marriage".
Your wife has no idea how to end her EA. She knows she has too but at the same time doesn't want to give it up entirely. She's negotiating with herself, with you and with OM about how she can juggle both. Her reaction to the suggestion and requirement of a "no contact letter" is telling....so asking wasn't a waste of time or effort. It told YOU where you are in this process.
Begging for a "No Contact" letter would be over the top. Asking and then getting mad/angry/upset when she behaves like the typical wishy washy wayward would also be over the top. But neither of you have done this before so just naturally knowing what to do or when to ask certain questions isn't going to work and then you end up in recovery situations where "no contact" is presumed - no one is accountable to anyone and since the 3rd party is still involved - the recovery fails.
The gesture of a "no contact" letter is the first step to actual "no contact". I puts OM on notice that he's been pushed aside and de-prioritized by the wayward wife. It lets him know that when push comes to shove - the ww is going to choose her family over him so he might as well move on (even if she comes begging back for him). I have seen numerous incidents where the OM just lashes out at the WW revealing that he was just playing her for sex anyway and didn't truly ever care about her or revealing that he has several other married and unmarried women to continue to keep him happy so good luck with your husband. Not that you write the "no contact" letter hoping OM will react like that but you never know....OM's like to play macho-man and act all PUA Alpha dog that would never pursue a woman that rejects them.
It's also very often "rock bottom" itself for the wayward. Sending that letter is an admission that they were wrong - that the affair was wrong - and that they really do need to live up to their words (written in black and white on that paper). It's an admission that OM was a mistake and that they actually do love their spouse which is so contrary to what they've been saying to themselves for so long.
You don't have to hide step one from your wife waiting for her to come to the conclusion herself. You are way to far into this situation to be playing that game. Pursue - distance is a strategy of attraction but it's not an overriding life principle. Truth and honesty ARE (especially when you have sins of your own). Be aware of pursue-distance stuff but don't let it dictate common sense.
On that note - other than not telling her about your thread here on DB, any attorney advice or what your friends and family are really saying about her - don't lie to her. She has a right to ask where you are going - just as she has a right to ask what's in your computer history or what's in your briefcase. Besides - telling her what a full and interesting day you have going on IS attractive. Casually invite her along perhaps without any reaction if she says no.
Truth/Honesty/History - the foundation of recovery.
With 3 kids at home, and the job I work, I don't have a ton of free time to kill. I work on Saturdays, and have some time on Sundays and Fridays. Lately, Sundays have been taken up with schlepping kids to activities and getting a few things done around the house. Fridays, my day off, I'm often going to appointments and catching up on laundry.
I do like to head out for a coffee now - spend some alone time reading the books I've been ordering. Need to re-read a few chapters in no more mr nice guy, and divorce remedy. love and respect is half-done.
The wife seems to throw a hissy when I do go out - making mention that I might be seeing someone, or asking 20 questions. She doesn't go out - she's a homebody, and just facebook surfs at night in bed. If I don't tell her where I'm going, she lets me know that I'm not being truthful, and if I want her to be up front and honest, I need to as well.
Should I just tell her exactly where I'm going? I'd love to invite her for coffee, but right now, today, is not a day I really want to spend much time with her. That never used to happen, so there is changes in me that are sticking - for now.
Oh, and I have a calf strain with achilles tendonitis. Need new shoes with more support - my feet are as flat as the Kansas plains. Going for physical therapy as well. The doc said I should cross out doing a shamrock run, aim for summer. Well, I still have my lose 40 by my 40th, so I have 2 months to kill off 15 lbs. Will be joining a gym to get elliptical training instead of running. Fun times!
GB, I agree that a remorseful WW is unlikely, and if she asks I can see the value in clearly stating your boundaries.
My only concern is how high the expectations of the LBH are. If a WW mentions something about working on the marriage it can often be a temperature check to make sure they still have the LBH on the hook and can cake eat and avoid consequences.
In DR Michelle talks about being very cautious to show too much eagerness in this spot, and talks about moving slowly, not giving up your detachment or LRT. I think if WW asks about working on the M it's ok to answer slowly, like it's an idea being considered, and then state those boundaries. And then it should be presented almost like it's no big deal either way, if she's not interested then no sweat, keep moving on, you're the one that brought it up.
If, on the other hand, LBH immediately lists the NC letter and other boundaries, then shows emotional attachment to that outcome, pressures her, persuades her, and brings it up again and again...all he's doing is having attachment and expectations, and interfering with her journey.
Zues,
I agree.
I'm excited to see my WW turn a corner. Too excited.
It's tough NOT to be excited... it's working, it's working!...
I'm not detaching myself from my marriage right now, but I'm not working on any relationship talk. I'm still pithy with answers to questions from my wife - and while I'm excited to see a turn back to the marriage, I also see a wife who just is confused, and someone who will need lots of time. Time to figure out if she really wants to be a part of this relationship.
I think Georgia Bulldog said it in a post above, or someone else did, but I see wanting to be with my wife now as a conscious choice, rather than an expectation. Do I still believe I took a vow in front of God, my friends, and my family? Yes. However, I have to think every day that she or I could leave, and be ok mentally and emotionally from that choice. I used to never think about - We just 'were'...
Side note - I'm going to get some physical therapy on the achilles, which has now been diagnosed as a calf strain as well - my flat feet coming back to haunt me. Will need to get new shoes, and start walking, but no running. Looks like the Shamrock shuffle 5k is out of the question - will need to look for something later in the year.
On my way to schedule a PT session, met a woman scheduler. Noticed no ring, but some small child pics at her station. Somehow, I made mention I had started to lose weight, pushed my speed/miles too much, and my 40 year old body isn't like is was. She laughed, and said why the weight loss? I mentioned a divorce will do that to a guy.
She's separated from her husband - 18 months. We had a couple moments together, I could see her tearing up as we bonded over similar stories, and she said she's never talked to some stranger at work about it, but I seemed willing to listen. Her husband cheated, and is now living with his parents, no job, no future.
She laughed, and then asked me out for a drink. I was flattered, but told her I'd take a raincheck, and talk to her next week when I come back.
No interest in jumping on that train, but it was the highlight of my day, maybe the week.
So, WW got a IC session in yesterday, and sent me an invite at work to put her next session on the calendar. I'm happy for her.
It took a little bit of active thinking, but I didn't ask anything about her session. If she wants to talk about it, great - if not, it's her circus, her monkeys, right?
I still think she's NC with OM, but I'm not asking.
The less I ask, the less I converse with her, the more I keep thinking that I'm creating a space within me that can exist in life without her.
When you're not happy with yourself, you need others to find that happiness. If I can exist in my space, love my kids, and see the positives in my life and in the world, why do I need a wife that thinks she can crap all over me to get herself to feel better? I just don't need that. I exist on my own. I live my life for God, and Jesus is the love I desire now. I want to be more like Him.
I'm getting wiser in the ways of detachment. The next level of detachment is to show happiness in my life, regardless of how my wife acts. Happy or sad, disappointed with me, or wanting to spend every waking minute with me (ha! that's a pipe dream right now). Her resentment and disrespect for me runs SOOOO deep. I can't help her to drop those bags. She's got a life's worth of resentment in baggage, trailing her.
Correct. It all stems to appreciating what we have.
If what we have in our lives isn't enough to fulfill us, there is nothing 'out there' that will. Whether that is a restored marriage, a wife that has more sex, a newer car, or whatever. Every day we make the choice to be appreciative and content, or to be entitled and resentful. Every day.
Which is worse? Wife walking away from the marriage? Or us walking away from being appreciative and thankful to God?
I wouldn't worry about showing your happiness. I tend to not want to overdo things, so I tend to keep it to myself. But I do share my joy with my children.
Keep going.
Keep up the good work Trumpet!
Tho our sitch are different in ways I think we are at the same spot personally. With you being a bit ahead maybe. Focusing on self happiness regardless of W actions and attitude is such a release from the old frustration and attitude of yourself.
I texted wife at work today.
All my text stated is if she had any ideas for supper, and when S12's indoor soccer game was.
Her texts devolved into hounding me where I'm going, who I'm seeing, and just some nastiness on her part. So far, I just explained I'm going to the game, and will be home after work.
She keeps repeating that I sound like a counselor, that I talk differently to her than I used to, and that she can't stand me right now. That it sounds like I'm talking down to her, like a child. That I keep throwing Bible verses at her.
I'm trying to talk directly to her, and I'm not throwing ANY Bible verses at her. at all. No prayer with her, no nothing. I did do the kid's Catechism with them last night - I have to, she will not do anything when it comes to church right now. She used to play saxophone with the music team, once a month, but was told to hold off and 'think about things' right now. Her filing for divorce has consequences, and she's angry at church, and me right now.
She's still going to attend on Sunday, just at a different time.
I asked her what she wants, and she said to stop talking to her like a child, and that she really doesn't know right now. Doesn't know about us anymore. She blamed me for forcing her to go to counseling. 'I don't have a problem, you seem to have the problem, and you're trying to fix me!'. She's mad that I told her about NC, that she needs to be an open book.
I think the texts to know exactly what I was doing was a way to control the situation. She's confused, and trying to control the sitation, so she's trying to control me.
She's SOOO in the fog.
This past Sunday is looking like a very distant memory. She's just not ready to work on things. "I'm not the problem, YOU'RE the problem!"...
Ugh. I need to go and pray somewhere.
She continues to want to talk in code - lots of anger and hurt, and wants to get it out with passive-aggressiveness. This is her native language - she's always learned from her mother on how to get her way with snide comments, in a way to deflect the hurt.
When I no longer engage in that code, she's getting really upset.
Anyone know how I should proceed? Should we see a counselor together? I'm just tired of her having a thought and feeling in her head, but it not coming out honestly, but in sarcasm and double-talk.
I think you create some space and move forward with your life, detaching in a major way.
She throws R out there. You jump and offer some idea how that could be possible. She throws it back in your face, and now is spewing and treating you disrespectfully.
I'd shrug, go dark, and move forward.
Your posts are an awful lot about her again. Who cares. She's a WW unwilling to let go of her addition and anger. If you care for her the best gift you can give is the opportunity to walk her own journey. As long as you're attached to her behavior she'll behave worse trying to control you. Once you've detached and she realizes you aren't playing anymore, she'll have to decide what she wants to be when she grows up.
I looked at it like a game. WW would try to do things to get a reaction. I took the batteries out of the game. She could try whatever she wanted, the game was dead. I was moved on.
She may still be playing, and might for years. Yours might as well. Who knows. It's not about her anymore. What are you up to today?
Sold a car - yay! Staying late - thus the post.
Picking up a few pizzas, back to the homestead, and then to son's indoor soccer game. I'm sure we'll go as a fam, so I'll be working on being confident, calm, and quiet.
I feel like I'm in the movie Groundhog Day, just it's a weekly thing, not a daily reoccurance.
I do feel better when she's not around. I do miss her, and the good times we had. I just don't want to be around her when she's so unhappy. Going to get some exercise in tonight and tomorrow as well - too cold to do anything outside.
Zues, you're in MN, right? Thought I read that back a few weeks on a post. If so, what's the temp supposed to be tomorrow?
Yeah, MN here. It is cold. Not negative yet, but single digits. I forgot to get something in the grocery store, I thought about going back in but the 30 foot walk to the front door was more than I wanted to go through. The wind was biting. You know how it is. Just 20 seconds out side is like an experience.
If I didn't have three kids I would move the heck out of this state. It blows me away people live in climates like this.
Then again, we don't have insects, earthquakes, etc. As long as you play pool and stay inside it's all good.
Nice job on the car deal. Always feels good. Some of my favorite memories was when I was in the special finance department and my partner and I had like a 5 car day, and we'd be filling out the spreadsheet and tracking our commissions. I think our best Saturday was 3K each. Subprime really took a hit around 07-08 during the meltdown, Americredit and Cap1 started turning down credit below 600 and charging 2K acquisition fees on those they approved...the gap between subprime and near prime dried up, and it all came crashing down. Anyway, glad you're rocking and rolling. If your market is like ours if you can survive Jan/Feb you'll be rolling in March!
She wants the conversation, the texts from me, the phone calls, since she's not talking to OM, but really, she just keeps trying me on for size.
And, she can have those things from you.......if she will do her part and write the letter, call the lawyer, and agree to transparency. Otherwise, she will crumble to the pull of the A. She has not reached that point of being willing to do whatever is necessary to save the M. I think it is more YOU that is pushing her, trying to get her there.......and she's digging in her heels.
She said yes on Sunday, and she meant it. Was it a moment of weakness for her? I consider it a moment out of the fog.
Maybe, or she was just trying to get you off her back about it. She either agrees or she doesn't. You can't hammer her till she gives in about it, b/c I doubt it would be authentic.
Why another R talk? What will it accomplish? Nothing is going to work as long as she's holding on to the OM.
I have told her 3 times this week that in order for US to reconcile, these things have to happen. She greets those requests with disrespect, including eye rolls, huffing, and trying to end the conversations with 'bye trumpet' or 'we're done talking'. 'You're treating me like a 2 year old!'.
Not a good sign.
Here is how I see this, and it's just my opinion. I don't think it is a matter of
patience that is needed here. As usual, the WW is daring the H to see if he will bend over and let her ram this up his a$$. The more R talks, the more pressure he applies, the more "reminders" he gives..........the more she realizes she has him by the b@lls and he won't do anything.
It boils down to this..............either sh't or get off the pot. Just sitting there is not accomplishing anything.
Sandi,
I agree.
We can be friendly, neighborly... sometimes, she slips back into the old wife, smiling, small talking with me. We even sat on the couch together for a bit today.
How much do I interact and show her I'm not cold as ice trumpet? That's my sitch right now.
She's still not going to write a letter. She did finally mention last night, after her taking out some anger on me, that not contacting him, no calls, no texts, is really hard, and she's still hasn't contacted him in a week. Can I check? Nope... she says she values her privacy, and I can't. I have to just trust her... gah!
She comes back to my addiction as well. Saying it's a convient excuse that I have, since I have a name for my addiction, and I'm using it as an excuse. I camly let her know that yes, I'm broken, and knowing that I needed help, I'm currently in counseling, and it's nice to have support. She's in the camp that there is nothing wrong with her, and me 'making' her go to a counselor (she set it up, and put another session on the calendar). I told her last night that if she doesn't want to go, it's not a problem - just don't go. I told her it's up to her if she wants to work on the R. If she does, the NC, letter, IC, and then MC would need to happen.
Subborn WW. GAH!
My question would be, "What do you have that you would not want your H to see"? That is the issue. To tell you the truth, I like my privacy, too. Even though I have nothing to hide, I just like the freedom of saying something without someone reading over my shoulder. However, this will not be something that continues till the end of time. It is to help give her strength to do the right thing.......which we are more inclined to do when being watched.
She is VERY resentful of your porn addiction, and I can understand why. You will have to be careful or you will sound a little self-righteous to her. You may think that's crazy, but you talk as though you have already beat it. You talk as though you have come through the addiction. She, however, is not convinced of it. And, as long as she can reference back to your porn........she feels what she's done in comparison, is not so bad. IOW, she feels the kettle is calling the pot black. It just doesn't fly with her.
I really think you are pressuring her way too much. There is a difference in insisting and in pressuring. Right now, she may feel she is doing all that she can do not to contact the OM, and that you are not helping matters. I remember very well how tough it was for me, and I had the information from the board, so imagine how it hard it would be if a person was not informed.
Would she be willing to read just the diffinition of PEAs on the Internet? It explains the feelings of an A being liken unto real love and the addictive power. IDK, you have pushed so hard that she may rebell about anything at this point. She doesn't want MC, so what will she do?
I see two things here. 1) Her unwillingness to do whatever you (the betrayed) feel is necessary to save the M. I think she sees herself as being the other betrayed person in this M, in relationship to your porn use. 2) You are trying to push her, very hard, into something that has to come willingly from her. Otherwise, it isn't successful, and will only build more resentful.
I think between the Pastor's comments and your pushing, she is fighting the whole process. You need to decide what you will do if an agreement of transparency doesn't come. I don't think she's going to agree to it. I am not saying it won't work, I am saying I think it will be unlikely.....given the addictive pull of the A. She may end things with this OM, but get into another A.....b/c she'll need a fix. It is too easy to pretend she is being faithful, while continuing aome type of an A.
Everyone who has an addiction needs a way to cope, don't you think? They need support and encouragement, and a plan what to do on the days the temptation seems unbearingly difficult to overcome. She needs the same thing.
They (above) may be right OR she may be acting like a typical wayward wife in the first week of withdrawal.
My wife was hesitant to write a no contact letter too....mostly because OM broke it off with her and told her to leave him alone after exposure.
First few weeks are difficult as their sneaky little affair routine is disrupted and all the rationalizations and justifications for having the affair in the first place remain. They mourn the loss of OM and they are overwhelmed with the idea that they are stuck trying to make it work with you.
I like the ideas you expressed about being detached from the upset and anger. Not needing to preach and teach to her anymore. However, if she truly is going "no contact" the more support you can give her with just your detached presence, the better in my opinion. Don't be up her butt chasing her around for conversation because you know it'll just be hateful talk and she's not ready to really listen yet. Just be there - around - in the same house.
My bet is that absent a "no contact" letter - there will end up being "closure contact". The withdrawal is more than she bargained for and it's telling her subconscious that - "wow - you liked him more than you thought". She's likely to fail but maybe not. No contact is more important than a "no contact" letter - but absent the letter white knuckle cold turkey "no contact" is just a game of chicken the wayward usually fails.
One of the best ways to support "no contact" is to take a trip together far far away. Gives the wayward a distraction to think about before and during the trip to help them through the initial tough weeks.
Sandi,
Thank you - I think you pieced together what I've been feeling and what my wife has been feeling the last few days. I'm not looking to talk about the R. I was being overly cold to her, and I think over the last day and a half we have settled in a bit, where I'm more natural, but more selective in my words to her. We spent the day together, watching some football, eating lunch, and taking family to S12's futsal game.
I've given her some compliments today - her hair looked great, and her complexion has been better than it's been in years - she's been working out hard, and lost 15 lbs. already. On a strict diet - this is the first time in 15 years she's going gung-ho on her weight and health. I was witholding some of that, and it felt natural to give her those - she deserves it. the new trumpet knows that he needs to compliment her more often than he did. I need to show her I care.
I was the guy that used to say I had 'unconditional love' for her, but that was just fooey, since I had the addiction. Love is an action in my life more than it ever has.
Geogia Bulldog said something that stuck with me - since we both have an addiction, I might need to be a bit more complimentary to her, since from the looks of it she isn't contacting OM. I'm going to lay off the NC letter for now, and show her I care a bit more than I was. I need to at least show her I'm a kind, caring trumpet, rather than the cold trumpet I was when she was actively talking to OM.
At least, from one day of it, it's paid off. I'm still letting her be during the workdays. And still reading books. We'll see if the resentment/anger goes down with a little effort on my part. Trying something different - like MWD stresses in DR.
Update time.
Sunday was good - Monday, not so good. She's struggling with the withdrawls of the OM.
I asked her last night, per the suggestion of our pastor, this question "What can I do to put you first?". His reasoning is that we both need to focus on putting our needs in the back seat, and our partner's needs in the front seat, like Christ.
Well, that went over like a lead balloon. She got upset from what I could tell, and left the room. At least she knows I want to put her needs above my own, even with the EA so close in the rear-view mirror.
I'm doing well mentally and emotionally. Physically, I need to get back on the workout regime. My achilles/calf strain is an excuse. I'll be signing up for Planet Fitness and $10/mo soon. I can at least wake up early and ride a bike or elliptical vs. running for now. Might even stop by tonight.
Meeting up with my old roommate from college and a good friend. We had grown apart in the last 5 years. Lots to catch up on. He's a good listener.
One positive note - my wife sent me a note telling me she changed her email password. She said it wasn't really appropriate - the password included the word Divorce, so maybe that's a good sign?
I told her she could make it anything she wants - it doesn't bother me. I did make mention that accountability vs. her privacy is a fine line right now, and that it's worthy of discussion in the future.
Made it to a men's bible study this morning at 6:30AM.
Got another couple marriage books in the mail. Got plenty of things to read right now. Divorce, and marriage bomb drops make you humble, and realize you can't fix things, and you need help yourself. I'm finding a TON of things within myself, and how to communicate well with my spouse, with every book I read.
Well, that went over like a lead balloon. She got upset from what I could tell, and left the room. At least she knows I want to put her needs above my own, even with the EA so close in the rear-view mirror.
She's not ready for that kind of stuff yet. I understand what you want to do, but speaking as experiencing it myself........it is emotional pressure. It's like this guy who is following her around & wanting to do something......anything....."just tell me something I can do to make you feel better"..........and it's too smothering for her.
You don't have to be cold and act like a horse's rear. Neither is she ready for you to be gushing over her and appearing "too helpful"......if that makes sense. Give her some time. Let her mourn the ending of the A.
I do believe that staying occupied helps. Do activities that are fun. Keep it in groups, if possible........like the family, other couples, friends, etc. Attend things together. Go somewhere new. See shows and watch funny movies. But don't push having talks with her. Don't push for intimacy, however, if she was sleeping in a separate room......as part of the R agreement, she should at least be sleeping in the same bed with you.
GB is right in how hopeless the WW feels in the beginning of withdrawals. She probably saw this OM as her last shot at happiness, and now she has to resign herself to living a life with you. (Sorry,^^^ that's expressing the WW's feelings). It is difficult for her to believe she'll have those "in love" feelings again.
Sandi,
Thank you again. I didn't think stating that question would help - my gut was it was going to make her angry, but I did it on the suggestion of the pastor. The reaction was what I thought it would be. The only positive is that she know's I'm focused on the marriage, and that selfless love is how a great marriage works. She's heard that before at marriage retreats, she's just in denial mode - her heart is still in OM's camp, and she's struggling.
Pastor's going to be reaching out to her, just as another person to talk to. Her friends are really pushing for her to continue filing. She has a couple friends that told her she was wise to slow down, but some of her best friends from college aren't practicing Christians, and some are already divorced - they're grinding their anger axe by giving bad advice to my wife.
I have to let go of the fear that if I don't do something, I fail. Just moving forward like I have been is the way to go - with a focus on my happiness, which will in turn show others around me I'm the lighthouse in the storm. If I am TRULY happy, I won't be able to hide it. And she will want to know that person - since it wasn't me for the last couple years.
81 days porn free. It truly is a daily choice - but it's a lot easier after the first 45-50 days or so. I struggle a bit some days, but struggling is better than giving in.
Stay strong Trumpet.
Im sorry to hear of the bad advice your w is receiving. Misery loves company.
I laughed when you wrote TRULY in bold. That's what we all want to show, but more than anything, we all pretty much fake it.
True happiness will happen over time.
Be well.
I soooo want to trust her. It's been tough.
I haven't seen her phone, but she's still NC with OM.
She's wearing her ring.
She's being nice to me - made coffee for me this morning.
I ask how her workouts in the morning are going. I do compliment her on how her weight loss/strength training is going.
She was happy to see me reconnect with my college roommate. Didn't ask any questions about what we talked about.
On the surface, it seems like a positive direction.
There is just a gut negative reaction to all of this - that I'm being set up. For those who have had any reconciliation with their spouse, is this normal? That 46/47 days from now, I'll get served the papers, and her being nice right now is just a front to hide the OM?
Every day I move forward, and every day I realize I'm the focus, not the R. That I can fake the pleasantries, and be nice to her, but I'm on constant vigil to not give into wanting to be with her, asking more questions, laughing, being like old times. I have to work on ME, my relationships with my kids, and most importantly, my relationship with God. I am the most happy when I feel centered, when I'm not thinking about her, and when I can focus on my own well-being. That the trust I had in her is just gone. The gut reaction that even the nice things she does are to really just cover up the EA that might still be happening.
She's going to MKE today for a work meeting. First thing I thought was that she was going to meet up with OM. Of course I said nothing. Just told her safe travels as I left this morning to attend my first session of a hidden addictions group.
This addictions men's group has me really excited. I'm more of an open guy, so sharing is fine with me. The more I talk about my addiction, the more I feel like I've got a handle on the struggle, and can keep the handle in my hands. My relationship with Christ is an order of magnitude better than it's ever been, and with that, I don't feel the need to have my wife validate my existence anymore. In that regard, there are moments that I actually look forward to being divorced from my wife, where I'm not feeling so put down by her.
It's also scary to think that while I might be working to make myself stronger and ready to make a healthy marriage work for probably the first time in my life, that maybe, just maybe, that through my self-discovery that I really don't want my wife in my life. That the longing for the relationship is just so that I don't feel rejected, as a divorce is the ultimate put-down.
I don't see much of my wife working on things. She's neck-deep in the EA fog to notice. Respect still isn't readily apparent, as so much as what the kinds of respect I'd want in a marriage.
Not being around her means I'm not getting disrespected, so therefore I'm in a better mood.
I have a timeline in my mind, but it scares me. The filing of the D means she has 60 days. That puts it around March 5th. I had given things until my birthday, March 13th or so, to start to see the Titanic turn around, or at least show some course change, to avoid ME filing for divorce. I don't want to divorce, I know God hates divorce, and I'm on a divorce busting website. What scares me is that these thoughts cross my mind - would I be willing to file the D if there is no remorse, no work from the W on herself, and on the marriage? I don't deserve to be 'happy' - I'm not a believer that God put me on this earth to just find my happy place and stay there - He has work for me to do, and life is tough. Do I take being in limbo until then, which was my first thought? Or do I give her 6 months?
Is that me being selfish?
Ugh. Opinions are welcome.
Trumpet,
You're not alone. No papers are filed, but I've been put on notice that if things don't seem better after a certain amount of time she will "stop trying." From my end it's hard to see her efforts, but whatever...
I'll try to reply with more thought provoking insights in a little bit, but I wanted to leave a quick note before I get pulled away.
Stay strong and keep doing the work - it WILL pay out, I swear
she know's I'm focused on the marriage, and that selfless love is how a great marriage works. She's heard that before at marriage retreats, she's just in denial mode
I'm going to be very blunt here. I don't think it is denial, Trumpet. Yes, she's still in the OM's camp, and as long as she is, she's not really "wanting" all the stuff that make great marriages work. I think that may be what a lot of guys don't get through their heads. The WW does not
want it. Even while she's going through withdrawal from the A/OM, she does not desire a MR with you, b/c that would require feelings that she doesn't have yet.
I am not just trying to find fault with your Pastor. I think he is like a lot of counselors who give advice as though the WW is 100% back into wanting the MR. Just b/c she's there with you in body, doesn't mean she is there emotionally or in spirit. There is a difference between doing something based on a decision and doing something out of feelings. I may not be the best at describing how the Pastor's suggestion appealed to her feelings, but it put pressure on her. She did not see it being helpful, but saw you trying too hard. It took a long, long time before I could say I felt the desire to work on having a good marriage. I would say that I was willing "to be willing" but I wasn't to the last part yet. IOW, I wasn't leaving him, and was just there.....that was all I could muster at that moment, and for a long time afterwards. If he had placed as much pressure on me as you have your W, I would have probably left, IDK.
Pastor's going to be reaching out to her, just as another person to talk to. Her friends are really pushing for her to continue filing. She has a couple friends that told her she was wise to slow down, but some of her best friends from college aren't practicing Christians, and some are already divorced - they're grinding their anger axe by giving bad advice to my wife.
It's a confusing time for her, although she says she has ended the A, her emotions and addiction are screaming bloody murder.
Interesting exchange tonight.
I got home a few minutes before W and D14 got back from a lesson. I had meat in the crockpot, so I served supper. The initial exchange was very good... this morning was very good. She even made me a cup of coffee.
Knowing that she might be in bed/sleeping after I take S12 to his dance lesson, I quick told W that with my addictions group that is now meeting, that there is some confidential materials downstairs, and to please stay out of them. She looked at me and said 'ok' very quickly. Mind you, the kids are eating, and this was only a 15 second conversation, but I just wanted her to know how important it was. She followed up after my second sentence with a desparaging remark, in a way that seemed to hurt me.
Here's where I probably went wrong - I confronted her on the remark. It was a bit disrespectful. My W right now does disrespectful very well. I trailed my W upstairs to just mention that I was hurt by the comments... couldn't leave well enough alone. In the end, she shut the bathroom door, told me to go away, and took son to dance lesson, after I wanted to take him. I did pick him up, but it seems like any conversation that might be more than kids, surface level-type stuff is met with anger and disrespect.
A few more things were said, but no yelling, no shouting, no cursing/swearing. Just me with some hurt feelings, and my wife seemingly mad at me, not wanting to talk with me.
Sandi's words that she posted today ring true tonight - that my wife still really doesn't want a R with me. A friendship, yes - for the kids. But the fog that she is in keeps telling her to find every small issue, blow it up, so that it can be yet another nail in the coffin.
In the end, she isn't putting effort into the relationship. She's putting effort into being friendly. I'm afraid that I can't put up with just friendly forever - I want my wife back! But how long is it going to take? I know, I know, no one has that answer.
I'm going to flush tonight, and just start again tomorrow with a nice greeting and go from there.
I don't think you handled it terribly. No worse than not saying anything and being walked on.
Maybe instead of telling her you feel hurt and looking at her with expectation of her caring and apologizing or changing her behavior...needy, controlling...maybe instead just state you boundary and terminate the conversation, in a way that suggests you don't really give a crap is she continues to disrespect you, but you won't be there to put up with it...
Trumpet,
I am no expert here, but I think that you need to lower/kill your expectations for now. The roller coaster you are currently on (everyone here is on one) is attached to your expectations for reconciliation.
Of course you want your W back. We all want back the girls we married.
I don't know how long it will take for your W to fully clear from the fog, but I know it probably won't be any time soon.
And the fog clearing is no guarantee that your M will reconcile.
I know you want to save your M badly. Go back and do what has worked.
When you courted your wife did you chase her around having conversations about your feelings and talk of sacrificial love?
She's not ready to be your wife...yet. She's got to get through withdrawal right now. "No contact" is your only concern right now.
Other than that - just be present and try to be fun. Bonus if you can get her out for a good night out. Foggy recently wayward wives love distraction and escape. They like to act like high school girls and focus on the superficial. You want to pull your wife out of that mindset ---- which sometimes involves going into the fogginess of superficiality to lead them out.
How would high school Trumpet have pursued a girl? Do that without the pathetic falling all over yourself begging to get any sex attitude.
If that fails...just sit there and listen to her.
Free, Sandi, and others:
The worst what I feared did come true - I found evidence that my wife was back to talking with OM. She has again professed her love to him, and says we have no future. She has been back to talking with him for the last 3 days. Her snap at me tonight was something very out-of-the-blue since we've had good interactions for a few days, so I did snoop. The Divorce is back on, and she says she'll be serving me papers. "15 years of you not loving me [censored] - I deserve better." She told me repeatedly that I don't love her (how did she get in my head?), and that the only way for her to be happy is with me gone. Lots of spew, lots of anger, and doesn't really care what those who care for her think. She will do what she wants.
I have some decisions to make on Thursday. Do I let this sit for a couple days, and see if she truly does serve me? If so, my path is set. Do I leave the marital home? I asked her to leave tonight if she is continuing in the EA - she will not leave under any circumstances. She wants 'her' bed (was ours), her house (it's ours), her car, you get the idea.
She deserves to be happy, our marriage was dead when it started, yadda, yadda, yadda... the same crap we all hear.
Leave the house? I tend to go back to - why should I? It does make it difficult with both of us here, esp. when she now plans to be open in the affair. I have to teach our D14 and S12 on Saturday PM - and it's on the 7th Commandment - adultery. Ugh. Difficult spot to be in, but my wife refuses to teach her kids any catechism material. She even recognized she'll probably have to leave HER church - she put the guilt on me for that one as well.
Should I file on her? I lean to 'no', as she already started the paperwork, so having her actually serve me would be fine - at lease I'm not in super-limbo land, like I've called it.
Very tough night. Searching for answers that aren't there. I'll get some sleep and see what the morning brings.
So sorry to hear that Trumpet. Was hoping and still hoping things work out the way you would like them to work out. Hopefully, this is just a small snag and things rebound.
This has pretty much been going on since 2013. I think as long as she diggs in her heels and says she's not leaving......she's sure you will settle down and life goes on as it has previously. It seems to me it's time to do something different. Could you move out and take the kids with you? Could you leave her with the house, the car,.......and the payments? Find you and the kids another temporary place, and give her no spousal support, at least until you talk to the lawyer? Have you talked to the lawyer to see your options? Did you ever separate your finances and protect your savings, retirement, CC, etc.? I don't give a lot of legal advice b/c I don't have a lot of experience with it, and b/c it may vary from state to state/country. It doesn't mean you have to file if you get legal advice.
This comes as no surprise, and answers why she continued to refuse any sort of transparency.
In case you get another shot at R in the future, tuck this in your brain. Do NOT approach a WW who has just disrespected you in front of your children by telling her you are hurt! To a WW, it makes a man sound very weak to tell her she hurt him. She doesn't respect hurt feelings. She doesn't care. The only thing she will respect is seeing you stand firmly. Where were the boundaries? Where were your actions to enforce the boundary?
This woman has suffered no loss! She intends to keep her cushy lifestyle and her kids. Meet with your lawyer to see what his legal advice is.
I am numb and dumbfounded.
Would moving out be a sign of weakness?
We have no money, essentially. I have been getting us out of debt for the last 2 years.
She borrowed $2,000 to file the D from her parents.
I've gotten good advice from a lawyer. The D is filed, no reason to counter file.
She sees her action, but refuses to acknowledge the hurt and pain. She keeps hearing her friends say they'll be fine. There is no way to convince a wayward. My thoughts go to how I can snap her out of it. It will have to be BIG. She feels the damage is too much, that she's too hurt, and can't forgive me for the pornography that she says destroyed our family. Feeling personally responsible for this right now, which is probably wrong, as its her actions that put us in this exact spot.
You may not be able to get a place for you and the kids, IDK. I don't see it as weakness, myself. I see it as a man who is fed up with her affairs and is taking his kids and getting out of that house, if she intends to stay there. However, everyone does not see it this way, and believes the man should stay, regardless.
Do you want to hang around there while she openly conducts her affair......? Isn't that like rubbing it in your face? This is what I meant about talking to the lawyer about your options. I didn't mean filing for the divorce, but about you leaving the house, protecting your finances, etc. I don't know the legal ramifications, so check with him first.
Sandi,
She would probably call the cops if I took the kids - amber alert type stuff. The kids wouldn't want to leave the house.
I could take a few days off and stay at my parent's house - they are in FL right now.
There was only one day that she said she'd comply to the NC - the day we hugged and kissed, and she said we were worth putting back together. It lasted a couple days.
Reconciliation in our case would take months, and my heart leapt out of my chest every time we made progress. At the same time, her heart was still with OM, and any little issue or stress at work put him front and center in her mind. She got her escape, her fix, by talking with him. I see now that we had breaks in the fog, but it's never left her.
D14 and S12 heard us last night. I explained what happened. They're not happy with mom. I told them to love her, love the sinner, but hate the sin.
No crying in front of them this week. No crying in front of wife. Anger last night. Told her I was disappointed in her.
Her words often beg a question, or force me into talking about divorce, that I want a divorce. Wouldn't it be easier to file D, trumpet? You know you want to! I'm an awful wife! You don't deserve me! I'm unhappy and deserve to be loved. You NEVER loved me. You mis-treated me for 15 years, and now it's my turn to feel love! Your spying means you'll never trust me! I have found someone that finally loves me! It might not work out with OM, but I know being married to you is wrong! You deserve to be as happy as I am with OM texting me every day!
Kids - I'd hate to leave them - I'm sure it would look like I'm abandoning them if I found a place. That would really hurt me.
Lawyer told me to stay put.
Going to pray and get some consoling from one of our pastors today, will go pray for a while.
Trumpet,
I'm going to tell you something and take it as you will:
Without knowing all the specifics of your addiction, I'm going to tell you that I believe that your W is using it as an excuse to do what she's doing.
This is something I've personally seen from my W and in other WWs on the board here. They find things to "cling" to in order to justify their actions.
For my W it was household responsibilities, for others, it's something else. Before I knew about the A I was so, so confused. Actually, anyone who knew the sitch was because people don't have those kinds of issues over chores.
I wore so much guilt. I felt like it was my doing. I've realized now that I literally had no place in my Ws decision to step out. Did I contribute to a M that wasn't sufficient? In ways, yes. But an A is a choice, an individual choice.
Your W is using this as a platform to try to hold you responsible. DO NOT LET HER IN YOUR KITCHEN!!!!!
There are millions upon millions of men that use porn on a daily or weekly basis. I don't know the extent of your use, but in MY mind and a good majority of others, including many, many women, porn use < cheating.
In a sex-starved M, porn can even be a way to take pressure off of a LD spouse.
If you want to believe that they are, in fact, on the same level, and we can consider the porn the OW, then congratulations! you've just gone 85+ days NC!!! that's something to be celebrated!! Good for you man!! Your W couldn't make it, what? a week with NC?
I know you want this to work out. I want this for you, too. But please don't let her walk you like this, man. The A is disrespecting enough and now she's going to carry on openly with it? You don't need to confront her, you need to go "dark." You need to carry on like this isn't salvageable and then readjust when she's done work to prove that it is.
Sandi called it: She has to hit "rock bottom." She may need the D to happen so she can see the other side of the fence. That is the reality and that is the reality you need to prepare yourself for.
Go dark, drop the rope, and go into protection mode. Time to get selfish for you and your kids.
Mowgli,
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I have put a lot of slack in that rope in the past, I can do it again. It's like riding a horse! Gotta get back in the saddle.
I didn't talk to her this morning when I made the kid's lunches.
For someone who 'never helped the wife around the house' I do my own laundry, fix most of the suppers, make the kid's lunches, pay the bills, take care of the vehicles, do all the yardwork, vacuum, rug doctor the carpets every 3-6 months, do the kid's Catechism every week, do half the running the kids to and fro, clean the kitchen, do half the cleaning of the bathroom, load/unload the dishwasher at least half the time, fix the computers, do homework with the kids, do all the bills, keep a budget, and even dust once in a while! Coming from a family where my dad did hardly anything, I've been 'trained' in the last 15 years to do my fair share, and probably then some.
This s$%ks. It hurts again. A lot.
On the money, Mowgli. Your comment about WW finding things to cling to rings true. In their selfishness, they will find ANY reason to blame you for their actions.
Stay strong Trumpet.
Mowgli,
My life was a sex-starved marriage. The porn did contribute to my wife not wanting to have sex with me, but she's always had a low libido. She is a worrier/high fret, so things really had to be 'perfect' for her to be in the mood. Any mistake on my part and I would be told 'not tonight'. Any advances would be met more resistance - of course, the more I asked, the more she declined, to the point in the last 4/5 years that I wasn't allowed to kiss or hug her unless I asked. Her joke, and it was close to accurate, is that we had to have sex enough to have 3 kids, and she's a fertile mertyle.
Wife has huge issues with body image. Quite a few surgeries in her life, hip issues, knee issues. Lots of pain - before being diagnosed with Grave's disease, she got the dead-end diagnosis of fibromyalgia. Lots of pain every day, popping pain pills. Takes valium. Takes a sleeping pill. As of March/April last year, lost her thyroid, now on synthetics, and her levels are way off - still off from the surgery, and she doesn't see this as a big deal... when I've brought it up, she gets mad, which is to be expected.
Of course the porn, my weight gain, and being a typical 'pig-man sloth beast' around her didn't put me up the desirability scale. I've changed that - personal hygiene is great, absolutely no farting/burping, being very careful in the bathroom, cologne for the last 3 months, button down shirts when I'm home, absolutely no swearing, new haircut.
I think I'm turning into a man that only a fool would leave. She doesn't know my doubts about reconciliation, that what I feel for her has changed in the last 3 months. Could it be back to what it was when I married her? Sure. She'll have to want to make the effort.
Just like Sandi and others have said, I looked for every ray of sunshine, and thought the entire day was unicorns and rainbows. Glimmers of what could have been.
I have to drop the rope on the marriage now. That makes me sad, and like a failure.
I called a second lawyer today.
Found out this week that quite a few people know what's going on at church. The word spread. I feel bad, but don't have shame in the situation. I'm open about the addiction, if they ask. People who I trust just don't understand the way of a wayward.
I understand the way of a wayward all too well. Crazier than a bag of wet cats. Like a freight train going full speed with no conductor. Right is left and up is down. Gravity doesn't exist.
It's like living at the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory.
83 Days clean and sober.
My original goal was to go 90 days. I don't know why I couldn't go double or triple that. Secure in my struggle, working on it daily.
Signed up for Planet Fitness last night. Have another place to go to burn off steam, so I don't have to stay in the house anymore.
Thinking of maybe picking up a beginner guitar. I have a student one, but probably need a full-size to learn on.
Hey trumpet, I'm still following your sitch. I feel for you... the ups and downs must be so difficult. I agree with Mowgli that your W is using your past addiction as a way to shift blame and not take responsibility for the real reason why he is making her choices. She is invested in believing the story that "you don't love her" because she wants to believe that's the reason for her choices. If she was to admit the real reasons for her choices to herself, it would be very hard for her to face, and so although it may be unconscious, she is choosing to lie to herself because she is too afraid to face the truth about herself.
I believe that all of us sooner or later encounter issues like this in our lives, where we unconsciously create situations that present the opportunity to choose the painful path of truth, or continue to hide from ourselves and spin stories to defend ourselves from the shame of facing it and doing the real work of transforming ourselves into better people. I don't think it's only wayward spouses who go through this. IMO, all of us do, and waywardness is just one of the more severe ways in which this can play out in a person's life.
Is it possible for you to step back and focus on this bigger picture while having compassion for your W? Only she can choose the painful path of truth, and only when she's ready to (this is the rock bottom). There is a part of her that knows this deep down, and although it's up to her whether she listens to that part of her or not, you can radiate compassion for her, for how hard it must be for her to face herself and find her way out of the fog. Probably much harder than it was for you to face yourself about your own addiction. If/when she finds her way out of the fog, you can make it such that you are an ally with the part of herself that would lead her out. To make it out of that fog, she would need to have tremendous compassion for herself that she could be in such denial. Can you cultivate a space in yourself that can hold that compassion for her? Can you communicate that compassion to her without words, through your gentle actions, through your eyes, body language? Through withdrawing out of respect that she's not ready, and that she is free to choose when she is ready?
For me, it has been very hard to detach while also keeping my heart open, but it is through striving for this type of compassion that has helped me to do so. I have a strong urge to communicate it in words, and I'm finding it hard to do it solely through actions. What makes it even harder is that I can't ignore my own needs. I need to tend to my anger about being betrayed on this scale, and I need to develop boundaries. So, the challenge is to hold a space to honor myself while also holding a space to have compassion for my W. Not easy, but focusing on this noble intention has brought more stability to my journey recently.
Wishing you the best!
Thanks JGuy.
Yes, when I detach, I'm a bit cold. The more I did it, the better I was able to open up a bit.
When there's hope, I re-engaged into the relationship, and realized I wasn't an innocent betrayed spouse - I had done more than the average bear in my marriage. So, the first month after BD was really tough - my addiction is under control, and my physical need for sex is on the shelf now. It just has to be.
I'm more of a talker than the average male. I have a pretty good handle on my emotions, what they are, what am I feeling? Counseling will do that to you as well.
If my WW does have the desire to R, it will have to be something she will work on herself for a while. I didn't think I had an addiction. It might take her being divorced, losing me, and splitting the kids to realize she had her own side of the road to clean up. Everyone has something to tend to - when we think we're perfect, and don't need fixing, that is the beginning of the end for us. Life will always shatter that image.
Trumpet, do not beat yourself up right now. Breathe brother, breathe.
You contributed to the problems in your marriage, BUT YOU ARE NOT AT FAULT IF YOU GET DIVORCED. That is completely on her. Her choice, not yours.
As far as religion goes, my W was heavily involved in the church and was a regular lector at mass for years. Fast forward to a few months ago. We are at mass with the kids. The sermon is about how God hates divorce.
After the mass, I said "interesting sermon today".
She responded with "I didn't like the message. It's wrong".
WW's will pick and choose what works for them only. In their eyes, even God doesn't know what he's talking about if it doesn't suit their needs.
Don't panic now. Your goals are still the same as when you came here.
Just be your best. It's all you can do.
Go easy.
Can you communicate that compassion to her without words, through your gentle actions, through your eyes, body language? Through withdrawing out of respect that she's not ready, and that she is free to choose when she is ready?
I wished it worked that way with waywards, but for the most part, she will not see it as
compassion until after she starts coming out of the fog and has learned from consequences and losses. Until then, she only sees her H's gentle actions as
weakness in him. It's not necessarily b/c he's not compassionate enough or that he's bad. It's usually her issues that are the hinderance. Her mindset is out of whack. This is not the woman she use to be.
There have been numerous LBH's on the board who were very tender hearted, kind, patient, loving in every way, who never wanted to do anything but make their W happy. It seems anyone would respond to compassion, wouldn't they? Most WW's that I have read about are too cold hearted, self-centered, rebellious, and other heart problems...to even want their H's compassion and/or gentle action. One exception, however, is when they are having a pity-party. Then they think he should open his arms and agree with her sob story.
I don't mean to imply that the LBH has to be mean, hateful, or cold to his WW. He doesn't. I am just saying that whenever he shows her actions that she interprets as being soft, she often does not appreciate it. In the husband-wife dynamics, she will take advantage of his gentle ways, if he does not show an inner strength that can withstand her all the bad things that waywards have been known to do.
I also believe that if a woman believes the man is waiting around while she decides which will be her choice, he is going to lose her. I mean, it sounds sweet, but in reality that's just not how a wayward thinks. She's going to look at the guy she thinks she's going to lose, not the one who is waiting and hoping she'll pick him.
Sandi - thank you!
I'm going to have to go very dim now with her. I will not stoop to her level and get angry. I will not treat her with disrespect. That's always difficult when they spew.
I need to get back to what I did before - successful detachment, and do an even better job of showing my inner peace in all of this c%&pstorm.
The less I say, the faster this thing will go - either to D, or to R. I have to prepare for either, and let God do his work. My WW has a huge guilt conscience. Hope it's working overtime right now.
Also, new thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2645584#Post2645584