onward - 13 - DivorceBusting.com

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I want to thank everyone here for your support and great advice. Also thank you for your patience with me.

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hold on!! - 12

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I never thought I would be here this long and I don't know if there is much story to tell anymore, but will keep on with it.

Thanks
u-turn

U

Please know the story is U.

I love Stevie Nicks style, she is my body type and when I scrub up my icon emerges. Well just a little bit.....

Do let us know how S is doing. I included him in my prayers last night.

V

Hi U,

I have been playing DJ with your music selections the last couple of nights. As for Lady V. I will think of you on the 21st of November when I Stevie Nicks and I'll give her little wink and nod pretending it's you all scrubbed up!

I like the trumpet thing, have you considered getting into? Maybe you can be the dad that plays in a cool dad! Or just the dad that embarrass their kids by reliving their youth. I say let your trumpet trill baby!

I'm sure the transition of he kids being out of the home for extended periods makes the house seem empty. I am guessing you work when the kids are not home??? The Thanksgiving arrangements sound difficult. I am not the right person to ask about this, given I have only experienced these difficulties as a social worker and as a step parent for a short time.

My gut response is similar to yours, that separate is best, or a minimization of what you did in the past. I am a great believer in the power of ritual and tradition being a healing intervention for children/young people managing change. This includes creating new rituals and new traditions. Something the captures their heart and minds. Old and new for a time probably.

I really don't know U, maybe you need ease D15 into this change for holidays. Maybe Thanksgiving D15 gets her way, and you give her heaps of preparation and anticipated new ritual and tradition for Christmas. I would let her determine how Christmas goes, but be really sure to ensure she understands that mum and dad do Christmas separately now, how to you want to make it happen D15? The other thing too, you have two young men, who may also want a say.

Holiday Season...Not my favourite time of year.

I get your sense about the competition thing. I have seen and heard it before. I guess you are in the position a lot of woman are in when they separate. The women have been providing most of the caregiving for their children for so long, now the fathers are required to step up in away that they never have. Makes a lot of mother's feel insecure don't you worry.

Your rational brain knows that there is no competition and that your relationship with your kids is yours, untouched. Its your heart that is playing tricks on you. This is just an evolution of your children's relationship with you. Just like when they didn't need to you tie their shoelaces anymore, or when you willingly let them go to the mall on their own without supervision. Your kids love and adore you and you know you have a pretty solid foundation to call on to get you and your lovely children through this. Given their ages, they also need to take some responsibility for themselves and their relationship with each of their parents.

Have faith U, you have brought you beautiful children this far and they are intact!

I want to see the Indiana Dunes. It sounds like an awesome experience.

As for your warmish weather 4c and 15c during the day, that is Auckland's winter weather temp wise, but it rains heaps in Auckland over winter so it is cold and wet. And yes it does snow in NZ, just not in the upper north island. Although three years ago Auckland got a tiny bit of snow for about 30mins. Aucklanders were We have some of the best skiing country in the world. Check out Mt Ruapehu in the North Island or Queenstown in the South Island . If you ever came down this way I would definitely take you to Queenstown.

So I checked out the Avett Brothers, interesting vibe. I couldn't figure out if I liked them. I'm electronica or house music more than folk, but I love a good singer songwriter. Im going to give them a bit more of listen over the weekend.

So here is a list of the real sound of kiwi music:
Trinity Roots - Home Land Sea - whole album rocks and for me reminds me a summer days , NZ beaches and chilling out to good music with a great friends and good food on the barbie (BBQ)

Fat Freddy's Drop - Any of their albums will give you the vibe.

Check out the Black Seeds, that have connections to Flight of Concords

Six60- they are huge in Germany. They have a more pop vibe.

Holly Smith - Long Player- I had it on repeat for six months. Her voice is divine. Bathe in River was another song written by an Iconic NZ singer song writer Don McGlashen - check out Anchor me - one of my fav songs by him.

You may appreciate Nathan Haines. Kiwi guy who made good in the UK and Europe. Playing his sax and producing music. Squire for Hire was his breakthrough album.

I have more but this is likely enough to keep you going for a couple of weeks. LOL Something to do in your down time.

Well best I go to bed 10.30pm Tuesday NZ .

Take you hear from you soon

JellyB XXX

It was actually Wednesday night 10.30pm. I am having a b*tch of week emotionally, but attempting to ignore it best I can. LOL

Hi U;
Good to see you're finding your way.

Hey U, JellyB and V,

would you be interested in sharing some of your tunes in the DB songbook thread?
No obligation, of course.

RAI

Thanks for posting on my thread U. I will respond over there as I don't want to fill your thread up with my stuff. Just wanted to say that I always feel like we can completely pick our conversation up, exactly where we left it. Sometimes it feels like a private conversation with you.

I find it hard with other people's threads they move so quickly and I am still formulating my thoughts and ideas and then go to post and they have moved a million miles from where I had been. It is the introvert in me not managing to the pressure to perform at every one else's speed and of course me being over particular about the finer detail of wanting to say things in just the right way. It is hard to feel invested in people and then feeling completely unable to positively contribute because I can't keep up.

Anyway thank you for always popping by my thread when you visit here. It means a lot.

I'm looking forward to an update.

Much love

JellyB XXX

Kia Kaha

Hi Vanilla,
I pictured you to be a little stevie nicks-ish from your descriptions of yourself through your time here

Thank you for your prayers V - I think they are helping. S18 is doing pretty well - most of his symptoms have dissipated. He still has bouts with the facial paralysis thing (this scares me, though he keeps a great sense of humor about the whole thing.)

Now it's a wait and see thing until he gets tested again. Seems like it has been caught early enough though.

Thank you - I hope you are doing alright and are also busy writing your story - I am.

Hi Jelly,
Your music selections have been keeping my ears busy. I love hearing music that I haven't heard before - and I have heard none of this. I have to say that these would not have been my normal go to selections, but the more I listen, the more I have gotten into it. Do like the summer beach vibe that shows up - I have listened to Jack Johnson a lot (which may be a little too mellow for me these days)

Holly Smith - wow!! there's the talent. I could listen to her for hours.

I am still diving into all of this - thank you for sharing!

I sometimes go back in time and listen to some of my high school favorites for fun:
-Rush - love the technical precision
-Yes - was trippy when trippy wasn't cool.
-Queen (saw them on your original music post)

today I have chosen to share with you --- Arcade Fire - wake up. I like a lot of their music, but this one makes me happy when it plays - not sure why, but has some uplifting lyrics.

and just for kicks -

sometimes when I'm feeling a little angsty (or when I'm biking), I listen to some heavier music (see - not just folk music here

)
Going out on a limb here, but how about Tool - Aenema (warning! not suitable for all audiences) - the refrain of "learn to swim" goes through my head when the water keep rising - as it often seems to.

and just to delete that image

a song that will always remind me of the best times I had with W - Norah Jones - come away with me (I don't have all negative feelings for her).

Oh and the dunes - it's one of those things I guess, I have gone there all of my life and it is nice, not super impressive to me - but I think it is just part of my normal. It's like when I see pictures of NZ and just imagine what it would be like to actually see that heaven someday - you might just think it is normal - all perspective. I would love to show you around though.

-----------------

on to me I guess - not that I have too much to say. So I still go to an IC every week - I feel like I should stop as I don't think I really get much out of it, but I still go and and tell my weekly story (I feel like she helped me from jumping off a ledge though). But I start every week by saying, I don't really have much to talk about this week - an hour later, I haven't shut up yet, and usually tear up at some point every week. She usually ends by saying that I have had another eventful week and am showing great signs of moving forward - hmm.

Since my last post, I am on a weekly cycle with the kids now - with a wednesday switch. It seems to be working ok so far - I do miss them a lot when they are not here, but I get to see them at school and S18 stops in to see me at home every day and I see D15 at her swim meets too.

Last weekend, was my weekend with them, but D15 stayed at a friend's house where I dropped her off - though she ended going to her mom's and staying there for the night with her friends, I felt a little betrayed by this. D15 wanted to stay there with her friends because mom has shiny new things and dad's house is a little busted.

I would like to say to D15 (but wouldn't) that while her mom is busy buying shiny new things for you and her house, I am still recovering from years of mismanaged money, past due taxes, unpaid bills and squandered money on her affair, hourly hotels and her new dream life. And though it seems like I am not paying for things that make you happy, believe me, every penny of mine is going to things that you do not see or care about - the house (which we were minutes away from losing), medical bills, school fees, cell phone, tv, internet, food........

I know this seems like I am griping, but where better than here. But suddenly, my house is an embarrassment to her, when it hasn't been before and especially for two years while her mom was running around.

S18 is a little bitter about his mom now trying to play super mom (his words) when she didn't want anything to do with them for all of that time. I validated - told him that I understood his feelings.

Now, I am spending my week without them, it's a little lonely - just me and the dog. Though I did get out to visit some people today and checked on my parents (shoveled snow).

STBXW is having issues with the kids and is trying to get me on-board to help fix it. She does not like the lack of attention that they are giving her. She wants to have a family meeting to discuss this tomorrow. I agreed that we can talk about this, I do think the kids can step a little to help out - though it is our fault that they have grown accustomed to not helping out. But I can't make them like her or like me.

I have declined an invitation to have thanksgiving with my in-laws. I have also declined an invitation to have thanksgiving at STBXW's house with the kids. I will celebrate thanksgiving with the kids on Friday at my parents. W asked me again if I wanted to come (she has asked me 3 times).

I feel like, we have been officially physically separated for only about 5 weeks, and I don't think it is a good idea for me to be hanging out at her house, when I am still so bitter about things. It seems too much like I would be the holiday husband and we can be a big happy family two or three days a year.

Is this a mistake??

I have begun boxing up her things that she left behind. The things that were in sight anyway. All of the shoes that were still sitting out, all of the papers, clothes and jewelry stacked on her dresser. It's all boxed and moved to the basement, out of my sight. The papers revealed more financial messes that need to be dealt with (no shortage of surprises), and so many reminders of the past two years.

I let myself get into this mess. I trusted that things were being handled as she said they were. I didn't believe that she would do this - any of this. But it is my fault that I am here and in this mess. I was dumb. I will never allow myself to get into this kind of mess again. I will never allow someone to treat me like this again.

Sorry for this messy post
peace
u-turn

Quick cheeky post, while you are still online....Jack Johnson...regular visitor to NZ to surf, honorary Kiwi. And Ben Harper!!! Im getting the Tool vibe too... Still reading the rest of your post. LOL

No apologies needed for the post. Mine have been all over the place this week! I'm a bit angsty and anxious at the moment. But all will be well.

I'm a firm advocate of the IC U, I think there is a lot to be said about the better out than in. My sense is that you have contained a lot of your emotion through the last two years, there have not been a lot of safe places to tell your truth of the situation. If nothing else a considered dumping ground is appropriate. I wouldn't like to see you becoming all filled up with toxic waste related to your sitch. It sounds like a health condition waiting for diagnosis if you keep it all in. And yes dear friend we are all hear too, as a place to rid yourself of what is not helpful and throw a little love and adoration your way too!! ;-).

Ah the cheek of the female teenager, taking advantage where they can. I'm not sure how you play that one. I know I would be playing it straight down the line with...."and when did the plans change? and who ran that by me? ". W has a responsibility to say "no sweetheart, if you aren't staying at your friends, you need to go to dad's". But I guess that conversation exists in some idealistic parenting world I have related to me being a social worker. It is a tricky one, as the playing of mum and dad off against each other this age, can leave holes open for at risk behaviour. This time she told you she was at mum's, what about the time she tells you and wife that she is hanging at the other parents place and in fact she is out and about. Personally I would be nipping this one in the bud. Just my opinion and worth little. Hello other parents of teenagers managing this sitch!!!

I'm glad you went with your gut around the Thanksgiving sitch. I feel that things have gotten to the point where you call the shots for you. And for your own sake, keeping yourself in a safe place regarding feelings of bitterness is really super important.

Your words about being "dumb" and this being a "mess" you created, they ring in my ears. The lack of kindness and forgiveness to yourself. Well I know this kind of self abuse. So you f**ked up U. Everyone here did. Don't get stuck in this U, it is really tempting, I know I have set up camp there many times in my life. My experience tells me though that the sooner you forgive yourself the sooner you move forward. You have done amazing things keeping everything going. One day there will come a time to tell the truth of what you did and didn't do. Right now is the priority to forgive yourself for being a bonafide perfectly imperfect human!

In the meantime, you can play Mr DJ in my life,

Norah Jones was my on repeated CD from Jan -June 2004 - I listened to over and over again with I did a social work contract to Pitcairn Island.

Holly Smith is amazing and I have had a girl crush on her since I heard that album. She is super sexy hot!

So I am now off to spend the rest of my Sunday evening listening to your other recommendations.

Catch you on the other side U.

PS: Can't believe I am missing the Chicago Snow!! NZ is waiting for your bro!

Much Love

JellyBXXX

Lovely U, I hope the holidays have worked out just as you wanted. Thinking of you.

JellyB XXX

Music Sunday U, times up. I need another.

Acarde Fire, didn't recognise the name until I Youtubed them , and then it all came flooding.

I had a manic morning on Friday. Bouncing off the walls, wired as. So took the morning to do data entry and chilled to some Jazzy stuff on Pandora. Nina Simone's Feeling good. Made me think of you and need to drop it in our conversation. Rediscovered Adele singing Make you Feel My Love. Might put that on RAI's playlist and Smile. I was watching love actually the other day. Both SIdes Now Joni Mitchell. WOW gets to the heart. Cry everytime I hear it.

Those are my music highlights for the week.

Stop by and say hello for our Sunday Meetup U.

Catch you on the other side of Sunday

Lots of love

JellyBxxx

Thanks for checking in with me Jelly. I wish I could get myself to post more here - I really look forward to reading your words (it's really one of my highlights).

The holiday here was a bit of a drag (I kind of expected that though). It was tough not being with the kids. I did get to celebrate with them when they switched to my house.

I decided it was time to box everything of hers up (not just the visible things). I didn't get very far, but I feel like I'm making a little progress. She has not been to the house in at least three weeks now and I have not talked to her in that time either (just a couple text messages about the kids and schedules).

They really do seem to like it here with me and have many gripes about mom's. (they may be telling the same type of story at her house though). D15 stayed home all weekend and had friends over a couple nights (that is a good sign - maybe things are getting back to normal with her).

S18 always likes it here, and does not look forward to the next switch. He is not afraid to speak his mind with me or his mom. W texted me a couple of times about the troubles she is having with him. I offered no help, but said it is difficult sometimes.

I say S21 this weekend for a couple hours - he is considering asking his gf to marry him and asked me for some advice (he is asking everyone though). I really feel that the women in his life (not counting his gf) are not the best roll models for him (gf's mom had/is having an affair too). I don't know if I am qualified to give advice either.

STBXW had some kind of surgery last week and didn't tell anyone until the day before. She texted me to see if I could watch the kids for a night (and extend their stay with her later in the week). I said I would. D15 was pretty upset and feels that her mom is keeping secrets from her (hmmm- doesn't surprise me).

Financials are still a wreck and getting worse again. W is not sharing in kids bills. Had a nice conversation with the IRS and they are about to come down on me/us (pretty scary actually). I need to fix this and spent a big chunk of last week digging through W's old files (piles) looking for past documents without much luck. This will be an ongoing task for me as the IRS has given me a 30 day deadline to submit 6 years of past taxes.

I am dreading the upcoming holidays. I won't have much/any money for christmas presents, W took all of the christmas decorations that the kids probably would like to see. I have to figure out something new - the old everything is gone. The kids seem very understanding about all of this. but it is so unfair to them.

I will send some music your way tomorrow - guess I should sleep - alarm will go off in a couple hours.

big hug
u-turn

Oh U,

I know it's not appropriate but I'm going to say it anyway, that all sounds like a sh*tty place to be. I am so so sorry! You and V have kinda had the same kind of year, just one thing after the other. I am thinking that there are so many people here who are Indiana Jonesing it or MacGyvering it to get themselves and their families through. Using duct tape and a sh*t load of DBing to get there. You dear friend are one.

You know I think sometimes about the qualities I am looking for in the man who next comes into my life, and I see so many of them in you and the other men here. I only ever wanted someone who would see me through the hard times. The guy that stuck and saw that as a masculine quality. Who saw following through on commitment as a way of displaying his honor and integrity, and love of me. All I ever wanted from my Mr Ex and Mr M was for them to want to work on things, on us on our future. Us against the world kinda thing. Oh a lot of fun and good sex (Blush)

When I see what you do for your STBX and your kids. It breaks my heart that there is a certain element about your STBX taking you for granted. It makes me angry because U, I hate to say because I think the word deserve is about measuring one's moral goodness and leads to a sense of self-rightousness, but really U, you deserve better. You deserve better, and if not better at least a break.

I don't know what you are thinking about as far as IRS and STBX not paying for the kids , but it sounds like a wee visit to L is required, to give STBX a rev up. I don't know your circumstances, but why are you holding all the responsibility for this?

As for Christmas U, I think your kids will understand. While your fatherly ways and pride are there, thinking that you have to make sure it's all perfect. Your kids are at an age and stage where they can contribute to making this holiday as Chrismassy as it can be. Co-opt them into helping, sharing ideas, let them know some of the constraints. Share the load U. You can't keep doing this all by yourself. Reach out to your family U. I know you don't find it easy, but man you need a break.

What you and your family need is a Christmas in NZ. No snow, sunshine, it will completely spin your head doing Christmas in the Southern Hemisphere. I haven't spoke to a Northern Hemisphere person, who hasn't said it doesn't feel like Christmas without snow and cold. Well it didn't feel like Christmas to me when I lived in the UK because I wasn't too hot, sun shining, with a trip to the beach and BBQ

One day U, you and your kids are going to come down this way and we are gonna have a ball!

I'm useless in this instance U! But I am here and a friend. I miss you terribly when you don't post. I would rather you come and shoot the breeze talking music, cycling and coffee than you not come at all.

I look forward to my Sundays at the moment, because I know I will leave you a little something on your thread. I used to hate Sundays, they were always a little sad. Not so much at the moment.

Arohanui, Kia Kaha my friend.

JellyBXXX

Well-I'd have to agree with you on being in a sh*tty place, but I will persevere - what choice do I have - right?

are you sure you don't know me?? - the whole MacGyver and Indiana Jones thing - hilarious and so me. It is how I feel and have felt for a long time - (also a NEED to be a hero to my kids and others).

The next part taps into my big insecurities - so I'll throw it out here - why not. I do feel like I have the qualities that you talk about (and those things seemed to no longer matter to the one that flew the coop) - but my fears are that this is all because of the last part (lots of fun & good sex). I question myself about these things - and while I'm at it - is this why she left? (and I don't mean left the house, I mean left our marriage) [[big question - and I'll be blunt - I was one to want lots of sex, always had to be the one to initiate it, and was pushed away the majority of the time - sometimes for several months at a time - I felt rejected very often and my resentment appeared often too. It was getting better (much better) toward the end - as we got older and more relaxed with each other, when she got into it, she really got into it. But then she leaves to "get on her back" with someone she had only recently met - which turned into countless meetings and on and on (that I know about). So the fun and sex part actually makes me nervous, meaning - IS THAT WHY SHE LEFT?

I don't know if I will ever know. (and don't really know why I'm bringing this up as there really is no answer to this - or at least only one person can answer that).

I do know that I am in danger of being taken advantage of. I sense that. For some reason there is part of me (and the part that's acting right now) that just wants to push through - if I'm not going to get any help, screw it - I still need all of this to happen, so I will chip away at the mountain. If some day she offers to help, I guess I would expect it - but I will not beg. (am I protecting her yet? - I don't know - maybe)(am I trying to prove myself as an independent man that can handle anything? - maybe)(am I just running around trying to put out forest fires with an eyedropper full of water? - probably)

-Thank you so much for your kind words though - they certainly help.

Christmas in the south sounds so good - if only. I certainly don't need the snow - and would love to put a face with all of this kindness that you send me.

----

so how about this for tonight's musical selection. (I play music in my classes - and reach far to try to move the kids a little) Today - as they were all a little groggy after the long holiday weekend so I went with all ska - all day. Can't be sad and tired with some cool ska.

I carried this through the evening and into the night (kids even liked it).

other selections:
a line from a Bruce Springsteen song made me listen to him this weekend - usually from the darker albums. But this time Atlantic City and the line "I've got debts no honest man can pay" (a little dramatic, but hey - why not

) made me think that I should do a favor for someone that can help get me out of this mess -- psshhhh.

I love songs that tell stories - ever listen to Tom Waits? (love his style) - I can get lost in his stories.

And to calm way down - Wynton Marsalis, Sonny Rollins, charles mingus.

I also love (sometimes tolerate) listening to the kids music of the day - we all share what we've discovered.
(by the way - Nina Simone, Joni Mitchell - that's awesome stuff - thanks for reminding me of that

how about joan armatrading?)

Well - enough for now - I'll try some more tomorrow.

Arohanui -

Hey U,

Im still here at work. Side tracked by posting responses to lovely people who took the time to post on my thread. It's 7.50pm here on Tuesday evening.

I am glad you posted because I have been thinking about you all day. I have felt a little off about not offering more to you, but also not giving you more of little nudge or poke with a stick. Your comments on my thread. well we need to get into this stuff about feelings and you feeling good about U.

Because U, you rock.

U I want to ask you to post more. I get the challenge of posting. I really do, me out of anyone. But I am worried about you sitting with so much on your own. I don't like it. I'm not the best one to be nudging you along. V came back to boards today and I hope she pops in and quite honestly U, I hope she asks you for the first chapter of the Story of U. Hope you got it , otherwise who knows what V will do Ummmmmm you might be in trouble Lol.

I say all of this with love. I really do consider you a friend.

Look I'm going to respond to your post when I get home. Well maybe after some dinner cause I am really hungry.

So stick around U, I aint anywhere near finished with you.

Jellyb XXX

Lovely U,

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts of it. I was triggered yesterday by talking about the tension in my relationships related to sex. So I daringly approached Mr M this afternoon to ask him about our sex life. So Mr M tells me, best sex of his life. Tells me he read somewhere recently that couples who have sex once to twice per week, enjoyed a better sex life and relationship outside the bedroom than those who were having it less and those who were having it more. In my head I am thinking is he saying that me wanting it more than twice a week was detrimental to our relationship. So I ask, he says no just that I needed to be able to respect a partner who wasn't willing to have sex more often than they wanted to. In my head i'm like WTF. I was never felt I was disrespectful. If he means being resentful about it, then that's another story. I told him that I took away from our sex life, shame about asking for too much sex, and he told me that it was a silly way to think about it that way. You are who you are. Well what were the takeaways from that conversation.

Absolutely nothing. I am coming to the realisation (after 8 years of not being with him) that he projected onto me his stuff about sex. He shut down conversations about sex when I attempted to find a middle ground. I don't have to feel ashamed, or broken or inadequate because of his inability to discuss it openly and honor of me and my feelings.

I don't know what any of the above means to your sitch and your feelings U. I can't imagine how hard it is to feel in complete darkness about why STBX was willing to have sex with someone other than you. What my humble opinion is about Mr M. He used sex as means to control the relationship. Emotionally I had it all over him, he was more committed than he had ever been, he felt pressure to spend time with me , sex was the one thing he could control when he was feeling out of control in every other aspect of our relationship. It was never about how often I wanted sex. It was about him being able to determine how and when he wanted to give it.

What do you think?

So life right now seems to be based around preparing for the kids to come to my hose and preparing for them to leave. Tonight I prepare for them to leave tomorrow for a week - sad. D15 has a bit of the flu and S18 has no interest in leaving - but life will go on.

---

back to this - I do think STBX absolutely controlled the frequency of sex throughout our marriage - it was almost always on her terms but initiated by me. The frequency was less (much less) than I preferred. So what does that mean, a lot of rejection with a couple great nights in a month. We never talked about it though. Sometimes the rejection would cause resentment and stewing from me which would in turn upset her and we would spend a day in silence. This cycle happened for as long as I can remember.

Was this her control of this part of our relationship - when she felt that the whole world was centered around me ? - I don't know what her feelings were. Did she feel like I was trying to take control of this part of our relationship? I don't know that either.

The great nights were great though - right up until the beginning of the end.

I hope to get this right next time. I hope I will be able to understand what it takes to have balance. I hope to be able to talk about this - about everything.

I have a lot of hopes for next time. I do feel like I have learned a lot.

I don't know how to get to a next time, but I am starting to think about how I would like it to look.

I'm not exactly sure how to start writing this new story of me - I better start figuring it out though - I surely don't feel like I'm moving forward much at this point. There's not much storyworthy yet - just a lot of me whining about things here. But it will come.

thanks for the nudge - I am going to try and talk each night here.

Hi U

You said something on my thread recently. Something like talking about feelings was something that you are challenged by and that wife was likely the same.

My experience of you lovely U, is that you are more than capable of feeling your feelings, I just wonder if you give yourself permission, if STBX ever gave you permission to really express them. I do wonder how shut down your STBX was. Not knowing her I just wonder if she is like Mr M, engages with people and life at that top layer and avoids anything that makes them feel too much or accountable to someone else. Please don't mistake that comment to mean that they don't feel. Mr M is the most emotional man I know, likely overwhelmed by them at times. My theory anyway.

When I spoke to Mr M yesterday I was reminded by his need to superficially glided across the top of anything slightly related to feelings. How do you resolve issues when one partner constantly stonewalls? I know it is likely but I don't want to be with someone who is unwilling to talk about sex and my needs. I am sure you feel the same.

My sense of you Mr U-turn, is that like me you are easily put off by someone else's sense of entitlement to have it their way. They stand their ground slightly longer and harder than we do. So we shut down and get on. Maybe it is time to do things differently.

I would love to hear about what you have learned about yourself about what you want next in your life. Sure you have practical struggles and we are open to hearing them, but maybe this forum can be place of U getting back to what makes U happy.

I wonder U if you could use this place to start talking about how you feel about things. You're a passionate guy, under that quiet exterior. The way you talk about your work, design and music. My sense is you have an artistic/lover temperament. Show us what you have U.

Potentially taking this leap, you may have the opportunity to reunite with STBX, maybe its a new love. Or maybe it is merely about U being happy just being U.

JellyB XXX

Thanks for being open to my wee nudge. An element of the selfish in it for me. I enjoy your company

I gotta go I am late for dinner with a friend and her gorgeous baby girl. Wednesday 5.11pm NZ

Poke (playful elbow in your ribs)

Hey there Jelly - I'm back. Kids left last night and I was feeling exhausted and stressed and sad. I sat down and fell asleep (something that happens for me every now and then)

I really do think you hit on something - maybe that's it, maybe I haven't allowed myself to express my feelings and certainly wasn't encouraged to do so by STBX. I don't know if I can even try to figure her out - she is a completely different person since BD compared to how we lived before that. I have to reach back to remember the good of everything - the last two years have certainly tainted my memories.

I do know that I never want to be in a relationship that isn't focused on communication again - and that was both of our problem. I know we lacked that and I believe if anything that was our main problem. Now - what made her go off the deep end, I can only speculate and I suppose it is done and doesn't matter, but I still try to figure that out.

Communication has been a889kijmajor problem in many facets of my life. In my relationship, I have not shared my feelings, not spoke about what I want and not been clear of what I find acceptable and necessary in a marriage. In business, I have been known to not communicate with clients, when even slightly bad news needs to be told, I put it off, which compounds the problem and compounds the bad news. this cycle continues.

I am aware of these things and am forcing myself to fix this.

and yes - that is pretty accurate. In the same regard as communicating, I do not argue either. Shut down and get on - that's about right.

I think about what I have learned and what mistakes I made that I can do better next time. I usually can see quite clearly what mistakes I have made and that usually obscures the positives - Even though that is not how I live my life with everyone else. I am a very positive person when it comes to other people. I can pick the smallest glimmer of light in any situation, make that the focus and build on it. I just can't seem to do that with myself.

and guess what - I can beat myself up about beating myself up. how about that

I have learned here - and maybe never heard it before. Be kind to yourself. This is what I need by me for me.

I have to run - but will finish this later.

Thanks for being here with me.
u-turn

U it is good that you have become aware of what needs changing. Look up the conflict avoider. It may help u move forward.

U,

I was glad to see you post. In my minds eye I think about how much parenting and caring you do while your children are present and then when they are away from you, that you are this man who quietly beavers away trying to get your family ahead, or at least get yourself ahead of the game. I am not surprised to hear that you fell asleep with exhaustion.

I have been pondering your comments about your communication and conflict style. It is very similar to mine. I guess where we are in a our relationships with our significant others, we can only but keep learning and practicing in the moments to become better communicators.

I do however keep coming back to how I feel about myself and that I stop myself from fulling experience myself, others and the world around me by not engaging in communication and connection. I wonder why.

I wondered what you see yourself doing differently in your next relationship, be that with your STBX or some other re communication.

What are you doing now in business. Has it changed things?

I have been recognising that I am really fearful about taking the next step in my life. I think I have claimed too much space in my Breathing room and it has become uncomfortable.

Are you fearful about what is next?

Do you know what to do next? I know there are practical things that both of us need to do to move forward, but what past them that brings meaning and excitement to life? I have some ideas, but they a freaking me out a bit. lol.

I wish that some other gorgeous DB men would pop by and provide you some far better companionship, guidance, and advice than mine - which is too navel gazing, touchy feeling malarky.

For the interim however U, you are completely stuck with me

JellyB XXX

Hi U-turn, I think communicating our needs within a relationship is something many of us have struggled with. I know it has been a big factor in our sitch. I tend to suppress rather than speak out and my H has told me he has done the same. Problem is it means the 'real' you doesn't get 'seen' and intimacy in the R erodes over time.

Have you seen Brene Brown's TED talks or read Daring Greatly? Also, you may want to consider reading (or revisiting) NMMNG perhaps?

I think you're doing so well U-Turn. Things still aren't easy, but you are processing and moving forward my friend.

Take care xx

Dearest U

I felt it was time to return the compliment you paid on my thread.

How did you get on with the IRS issue, did you find an accountant or plead for more time? Can you get historic docs from IRS?

Just want to explore the issues of emotion and explain how I see it, identifying emotions is step one towards expressing them.

It sounds corny but have you seen the Disney children's film Inside Out? It's amazing for identifying the five key emotions and looking at the role each plays and how essential they are. The film has five but some models say six feelings. Those are Anger, Sadness, Happiness (Joy), Disgust, Fear, some models include Surprise and others Love. I love this film, gives me a warm glow in my mid section and I smile lots.

If you can see the film it is really strong, with its long and short term memory model, and different islands. I am assuming since your kids are older you might not have seen it.

Many think love is a choice.

These emotions are prime, yet others split emotions and feelings although I interchange the terms. What is clear U is that these are involuntary. You have every right to express them and own them. They are yours to experience, you can accept them and go with it. These are primary and the body can only hold one at a time. Emotional Intelligence is key and knowing these emotions and changing body state to manage them is something that can be learned.

At any age!

I understand that you are saying it's hard to express how you feel, I think I start with knowing the feeling and feeling it, then I am largely there.

I sense that U may be mixing beliefs and thoughts with feelings. On top of this are wants and needs. This is my understanding.

Feelings are primary body limbic sensations, (that which some called lizard brain reactions).

Beliefs are changeable and continuing and drive behaviour.

I think you know this and the tough part is knowing how these are experienced in your body, each of us different. Some experience anger as a burning in the stomach and blocking of the ears, others as a rush of heat, others feel cold and stiffen. It's good to know how you feel each emotion. Once this is understood then it's easier to express how you feel.

Then next step that I learned was to be very straightforward about my emotion, I feel angry about xxxxxxx. When yyyy happens I am sad.

Following this it's a question of expressing the want or need, I feel angry when xxxxxxx happens and I want yyyy to happen. So for instance I feel sad that we don't ML and I need to discuss our choices.

I am happy when you treat the kids well and I want you to do x or y with S or D.

It is the same for boundaries I think so.

Let's keep it simple and uncomplicated.

So U of these primary emotions how do you experience them?

Where in your body? What colour? Shape? Hot or cold?

Which emotion follows?

Is there a pattern?

How intense are the emotions?

What behaviours follow?

How would you describe each?

As always U there is no need to respond, you can say no thanks V, I will be ok with that.

I just want to be practical.

Hugs

V

Thanks Rick - I have been reading about conflict avoiders and it seems that is me - in relationships, in business. I do see how this lack of verbal communication and dealing with conflict in a passive aggressive way did not resolve anything - it made everything worse.

I think we both were major conflict avoiders throughout our marriage. Even when she was aggressive in her words and actions, she was usually reacting to me. My lack of communication and follow-through. (Even near the end, the death threats seem to be a response by her to my silent actions - and maybe that all was passive aggressive - I don't really know)

This is something that I am digging into and KNOW I need to do better - this change is hard for me - I think I have always been this way, Since I was a kid. I do fear that if I can not change this, I will not achieve the things that I want.

Thank you for stopping by!

Hi Jelly,
I have been criticized not just by STBX, but by other people about my lack of communication.

I was actually given a letter from a client a couple years ago (he was a business analyst that I designed a home for) he loved my work, wouldn't change a thing, but was brutally honest about my communication and how if I didn't improve this, my business will fail. I took it to heart, and changed a little.

Though it seems like a cop-out blame game, I quickly went back into my old ways after BD. I was paralyzed and couldn't seem to get anything right. Not only did I not get my work done, I didn't communicate to the clients about it. It seems I started every single e-mail that I wrote "I apologize for the delay". This all just kept piling up - I was fired from a couple commissions.

I may have permanently ruined my relationship with one of my closest friends that I was collaborating with on a project. I treated her like sh!t and hopefully some day she will forgive me. This is almost as devastating to me as losing my W.

I KNOW I NEED TO CHANGE THIS FOR ME TO MOVE FORWARD AND SUCCEED. I wish I could say that I have changed completely. I am working on it every day.

I do think it is time to take some chances - and I see that with you too. I have usually considered myself a person that could achieve anything (and I think people believe this about me to). But it's time for me to put this into new actions.

I am fearful about this all - I am scared because I don't have someone beside me. I know that should not matter and doesn't really change anything, but with all of the major changes in my life, I had someone by my side. someone to just be there for the good and bad.

I used to take chances and push my limits, but I don't feel like I was brave, because I had a team. Now it's just me and if I fail, it's just me.

I do think about the kids with every action that I make. I need them to feel safe and comfortable. I want them to be proud of me. If they knew that we don't have this or that because dad failed - how would I get through that?

I would love to focus on some things that I would just like to do, but cannot right now. There just are not enough hours in the day and any minute I spend on those things, takes away from the things that have to be done. It is overwhelming, but hopefully this will not last forever.

Please don't think that I don't value every word you write me. I think it is exactly what I need. In my adult life, I have usually gravitated toward female friendships (maybe that's a problem), but I don't have many male close friends. not malarkey

Hi Sotto - thank you for stopping by.
I completely agree with that - I do feel that was the real downfall in our R. I think I can finally see that - it really wasn't the A or her waywardness, those were only the end of the game. Our poor communication was chipping away at us for a very long time and even though there were very good times, the bad times were never resolved and just built up.

I don't even know how long I was just playing along, always suppressing. Maybe always. I don't think I was afraid of arguing, or making her mad. I think I thought my opinion did not matter or I was just wrong - so it wasn't even worth stating my point of view.

I have seen Brene Browns talks - but I watch them over when I see them mentioned on the forum. I think she has it right. I started reading NMMNG a while back - but stopped because it wasn't sitting well with me. Maybe it's time to try again.

Thank you again!!

Hi Vanilla - I hope you are doing well.
I am not going to get through this whole response, but wanted to let you know that I am putting a lot of thought toward this and will answer you.

(I didn't get very far answering your last round of questions about writing the next book in my series. I am still mulling that one over, but still feel like I am between books yet - maybe a comic book to hold us over until I get a clearer view. I have an idea about who the lead character is though)

I received historic docs the other day from the IRS but they only contained my information and not STBXW. I sent her an e-mail last night updating her about the payment I made for the state tax and the payment I made for federal tax. I also let her know that I was informed about our unfiled taxes for the last 5 years and that I am getting this back on track but need her to contact the IRS for her information.

I am contacting an accountant that was referred to me by a friend on Monday to see if I can afford to get help with this.
--
I didn't see Inside out, but it is one that I really want to see. (I loved watching all of the Disney movies with the kids)

I am wondering - do you think you are always feeling something? I mean, if there are these 5 or 6 feelings, are there mostly down times between these feelings?

I do think that I mix up feelings and beliefs and may allow thoughts and beliefs to change or squash feelings. I still find myself trying to stop feeling and emotion. Especially the sad feelings I get when I talk to people about myself.

I was at my parents house this weekend just stopping by to say hi.
The conversation turned toward christmas and I felt myself pulling back and welling up. My problem is with the kids. I don't have anything that would remind them of christmas from the past, I don't have any money for gifts....all of this makes me very sad and makes me question what I have done. (I know this is sadness).

My parents offered to help me, but then there's my pride. I may take them up on the help (if some money from the business doesn't come in this week - very slow paying clients).

I am going to continue with this tomorrow - have to get up in a couple hours.

Thank you V

Hey U,

There is so much in this post, my heading is spinning a bit, but I like it.

There is an energy in the text that I haven't read in your posts in a long time.

I feel like you are seeing yourself as you are. A gusty determined artistic man, with a drive to succeed. You are seeing your rough edges, the ways you are sabotaging and you sound ready to take a leap.

It is interesting to me that you don't fear taking risks on yourself, but instead it is the potential lack of having a cheerleader and someone to the experience with. I have never had someone have my back completely.

Everything I have ever pushed myself (and I mean pushed) has been on my own. I don't think I would recognise support and cheerleading and care, if it hit me in the face.

My feeling U, is if you can take this leap, knowing that you have your own back, whatever risks and chances you are talking about. I feel like it will be the making of you. I wonder if their is some potential freedom and independency here for you, doing exactly what U wants to do and how he wants to do it.

As for the communication it feels like this is a worthy conversation to be having. I don't know if you read PP (Pigpen's thread) but recently he has spoken about is STBX W calling him on his intimacy.

I am learning U, that to have true intimacy with another, part of it is being able to fully express yourself, the good the bad and ugly. It is what creates connection, love and attraction. Is it hard, my god yes, freaks the living daylights out of me. Intimacy for me is a request to be fully understood and accepted. When it doesn't happen it breaks my heart. I think you can only reach out to someone so many times and feel rejected because they haven't understood.

Sorry U a bit of hijack with my stuff. I guess what I am trying so badly to articulate, is that poor communication is stopping connection, deep loving connection.

I am not sure how it relates to business, but my sense is, potentially you sabotage your success by not communicating. You obviously have some sense of being good at what you do. What happens for you in this one area of your business life? Business coaching???

Don't be too hard on yourself about losing some of your business edge after BD. Zues has been talking about this on his Black and White thread.

The closest friend thing, makes me feel sad. Is it retrievable? Have you really communicated what was happening for you through that time? I am sorry for this I really am.

I do appreciate where your focus is U. You need to build a buffer of success and financial security for your children, before you can think about person pleasures and gratifications. Lets keeping talking music, and coffee and art and design as we chat, so at least some of your artistic soul can be fed a little.

I listened to some Winston Marsalis on sunday afternoon. Get your trumpet or guitar out please, start practising. I want to hear you play when I visit.

I have been listening a lot of Etta James. Driving me mad how crazy good she is.

I am so pleased to see you posting, it does my heart good.

PS tell me what you mean about me taking some chances. What should I be doing?

PPS Watch Inside Out U. One of the last scenes of Inside Out, will likely give permission to let your parents help you give your children the christmas you want. Let people love and support you lovely U!!

Much Love

JellyBXXX

Hi Vanilla - I hope you are doing well.

I am doing much better thank you.

I am not going to get through this whole response, but wanted to let you know that I am putting a lot of thought toward this and will answer you.

There is plenty of time

(I didn't get very far answering your last round of questions about writing the next book in my series. I am still mulling that one over, but still feel like I am between books yet - maybe a comic book to hold us over until I get a clearer view. I have an idea about who the lead character is though)

In your own time. Sometimes posters take several threads before they answer, and that means there is work going on in the subconscious. When the answer comes it's usually fully formed. Odd when that happens but it's very exciting to read.

I received historic docs the other day from the IRS but they only contained my information and not STBXW. I sent her an e-mail last night updating her about the payment I made for the state tax and the payment I made for federal tax. I also let her know that I was informed about our unfiled taxes for the last 5 years and that I am getting this back on track but need her to contact the IRS for her information.

I am contacting an accountant that was referred to me by a friend on Monday to see if I can afford to get help with this.

This may save you interest and penalties in time.
---------------

I didn't see Inside out, but it is one that I really want to see. (I loved watching all of the Disney movies with the kids)

Can I recommend that you do See it, as soon as you can. Many things will make sense to you and fall in place, as well as being an enjoyable way of learning. I love simple models and this film is just so delicious to watch.

I am wondering - do you think you are always feeling something? I mean, if there are these 5 or 6 feelings, are there mostly down times between these feelings?

The body always has a state. At all times, which means that yes there is always a feeling in play. The body state is a combination of nerve state and hormones. Some states are emotions plus physiology, there is the state of sleep, meditation (concentration) and that of pain for instance where the emotional awareness is overtaken by other physiology.

Otherwise yes there is a constant stream of emotions, most of the time our subconscious manages them and they have little impact on our conscious mind. They just happen underneath awareness, at other times like your Christmas feelings they are high enough to unsettle us. Anxiety, which is basically fear overtakes me a great deal these days, but even PTSD and panic attacks are transitory and cause little long term harm. The body is designed for this!

I think of this working like an old fashioned audio mixer with those little bars when the sliders go up and down. Sometimes the emotions (feelings) are strong and other times weak. More bars on the digital indicator, combinations give us different levels. So there is a slider for fear, a slider for joy, etc. At any time these are at a level constantly moving.

There are many analysis of this and absolutely no correct one. I do like the console concept, it appears in Inside Out too.

There are several beliefs in the way I think of feelings. (This is my analysis and is my working tool, but there are many others)

1. Emotions won't hurt they are a state and can pass
2. When emotions are turned up too high then flooding occurs which can cause destructive behaviour. Time to turn on the mute button.
3. Physiology controls state and emotions
4. Emotions and feelings are involuntary
5. Emotions and feelings should not be invalidated by self or others
6. We can change state through our physiology, meditation, prayer, drugs, taking exercise, eating and by replacement
7. Emotions and feelings need not drive behaviour
8. We can heal from the physiology up, switch off genes, by extreme self care, we can stabilise
9. Managing our systems is a hard not a soft skill and can be learned

I do think that I mix up feelings and beliefs and may allow thoughts and beliefs to change or squash feelings.

Beliefs won't and can't change or squash feelings. My understanding is that what happens is that by belief we trigger a new state. Rest assured, the great feelings you have are still experienced. The body can't be in two states at the same time.

So by believing that sadness is acceptable, we feel it, acknowledge it, express and release. Otherwise it keeps coming back until we do. A little like the alarm clock on snooze mode.

I still find myself trying to stop feeling and emotion.

We can experience all of our feelings, they all have a role in our lives. Our feelings tell us things about ourselves. We need them all.

Especially the sad feelings I get when I talk to people about myself.

Sadness is particularly important for humanity and empathy, for knowing change is needed. For releasing grief and loss. In fact sadness might just be one of the keys to healing.

I was at my parents house this weekend just stopping by to say hi.

The conversation turned toward christmas and I felt myself pulling back and welling up.

This is important it tells you something. And you can say this. " I feel very sad when I think of Christmas and this Christmas is going to be particularly difficult for me.

My problem is with the kids. I don't have anything that would remind them of christmas from the past,

You have memories to share, I recollection the that what is important to me about Christmas is the traditions. Making decorations, setting tables, trimming the tree, carols, watching the Queens speech on the tV. Eating too much. There are very few presents I remember at all but the other stuff is very vivid for me.

You are not responsible for your kids memories, but for providing an environment in which memories are created and that is little to do with gifts other than the gift of U.

I don't have any money for gifts....all of this makes me very sad and makes me question what I have done. (I know this is sadness).

You have the gift of U. Absolutely you have, sometimes the most precious things you have are the gift of self. How about a home made gift voucher for each child? For the things they love to do, things involving dad, the cinema, going camping, cooking a favourite meal. My best grandad gave hug vouchers to be cashed in at any time, he also gave chips vouchers (for chips (chunky potatoes with skins) with gravy any night at grandma and grandpas).

My parents offered to help me, but then there's my pride. I may take them up on the help (if some money from the business doesn't come in this week - very slow paying clients).

This is an area I am exploring at the moment U and we can have some very interesting discussions on it. WH US and I have a thread on fins. I get this one, it's an issue I am working on too.

I am going to continue with this tomorrow - have to get up in a couple hours.

I look forward to it. U I would like to tell you that this area of communication is about knowledge and hard skills. Once you have the tools in your kit then the problem is manageable, so onice this particular boil is lanced then it will heal easily. There are lots more sophisticated works and help in terms of books and learning. We, you, I and many wonderful posters like Jelly and Sotto are all addicts get to your knowledge. Once you know and can recognise feelings then the toolkit is started. Communications will flow, I Internet guarantee it. We will also chat about the Commsame issue with your clients, a structure can be found for that. It is about routine and ritual.

Thank you V

----------------------------

I can see we are both going to grow a great deal by exploring this, so thank you.

V

Predictive auto text!

We, you, I and many wonderful posters like Jelly and Sotto are all addicts get to your knowledge

Should read

We, you, I and many posters like Jelly and Sotto are all working to increase your knowledge in this area. You are no longer alone.

I am not implying get we are all addicts! Apologies all concerned careless of me.

V

If you get help i trully believe that you can change the conflict/avoidance issue. I believe that ur life would improve. Yes not easy. Avoiding change is how u deal with things. But how is that working for you?

Where are you U? JellyB xxx

Hey U, missing your face around here. You ok? JellyBXXX

Post me a song U, just so I know you are ok...anything. Last song I listened to Latch Disclosure ft Sam Smith, on repeat, crazy loud. Danced around me bedroom singing it at the top of my lungs. JellyB XXX

Hello, U! I was just dropping in to check on you, and discovered the fantastic insights offered by Jelly and V. The fact that I learn so much by simply reading other's threads is the number one reason I am all over the place on this board! There is always something to be gleaned just by stopping in and visiting others.

I hope all is well with you. I was thinking about all Christmases past and what my children have said about them. Interestingly, they have no specific recollection of gifts - but they can recall years when we did something differently, how we decorated the tree, what we cooked, games we played, etc. Just do your best to make the day fun for them...I promise, the giggles and laughs are what will stick with them.

When my kids were younger, I used to make a treasure hunt for them out of one gift. I'd start with a clue on the tree, and they'd have to follow clues all over the house, until they found their gift. When my littlest ones couldn't read yet, I would just draw pictures (like an oven) so they could play, too. My kids loved the treasure hunt Christmas. It made the opening of gifts go on so much longer! If you can only get one gift, something like that could really be a lot of fun.

Sending you best wishes!

Hey everyone - I do so much appreciate your help, though it may seem like by my lack of response, that I am ignoring you. That is not the case - I have found myself trying to write responses and continue this, but shuffle away and hide here. I assure you that I am trying not to do this in the rest of my life, but I am also feeling very defeated with every turn I make. Sounds dramatic, I know, and I am not just trying to get a reaction here, just being honest.

I will get back to responding to everyone individually but thank you Jelly, V, Rick and Ancaire (welcome).

It's been a couple weeks and not easy weeks. I'll give some highlights.

Picked a fight (stated my opinion) via text with STBX about my opinion of her locking the kids out of her house when she's not there and told her that I would never do that and I have nothing to hide from them. Also told her that in my opinion the kids should be able to talk to their grandparents about whatever they want. If they feel safe and comfortable with them, they should be able to get support from them - STBX definitely does not feel this way and secrets should be kept. I stopped fighting about it realizing that I cannot change her opinion and should have kept mine to myself. But I have told the kids that they should talk to them if they want - and this is different than what their mom told them and creates confusion.

L contacted me and the divorce papers are ready and can be signed. I have to arrange a time that we can go in and sign them. Another thing that I have to do.

Financial situation is still a little dire right now, but I will pull through this one chip at a time. I'm getting an idea of much is owed. Kind of funny - when the kids are here I make sure we eat well, but when they are gone I find myself eating like a poor college student. Reheating reheated leftovers, ramen, and even counting calories to make sure I'm eating enough. I am trying to stretch money as far as possible, without concerning the kids (they don't know any of this) I am trying to make sure they feel that everything is normal and good.

I went to my parents late last week and they knew thing were rough and offered to help me. I told them that I didn't have any money for christmas for the kids. This makes me feel so much like a failure (45 years old and having to borrow money from mom and dad). This is not what I wanted to do, but I accepted their loan. It sure will help with things - instead of an early dinner on sunday which I usually make something great (it was my week without the kids) I took them to go cut a christmas tree. we brought it home and quickly put some old lights that I found on it. WW sent back a box of unwanted ornaments with the kids so we decorated with them. (I do think that the kids still feel that their mom treats me like sh!t, but that is just me speculating - I really don't know that). We did joke about what we had - they seemed to have fun with it and had a good time with each other.

I have cancelled my IC appointment for two weeks in a row now, mainly because of money. She worried about me and actually called me (she guessed this is why I cancelled). She said that she could work with me on this and didn't want me to stop coming. I am going back tomorrow.

dreams - for some reason they have payed me a visit again. Almost every night dreams about W (not good), ridicule, and suicide. These have been around for about a week now. I can get up in the morning and say - these are dreams, not reality, and do not matter - but it takes me a couple hours to really get to a calm place. Usually after I have been at school for an hour or so. My friend that I work with - who knows more about me than just about anyone else, said he was concerned about me and said - "you are not ok" though I usually argue differently.

- by the way, I have begun watching inside out (in 5 minute increments), I am going to sit and watch the whole thing - I am accepting that this as reality and is exactly what is going on in my head.

I went to church this sunday for the first time in over 15 years. It was an interesting experience for me - not all good. I am not against religion in any way, but have a different viewpoint about why people should do the right thing. The sermon was a lot about strength to look past faults and forgiveness.

These things both made me think of how I am F-ing up my kids lives and I cry every day about this.

I also went to a christmas party for a short time on Sunday. I didn't know anyone there aside from the host, but it was alright - way, way out of my element. I am both glad that I went and relieved it is over. It was at a former clients house (that I designed and built) so I had things to talk about.

Jelly - it's the fourth weekly all-ska-monday. Yes - this has become a real thing for me - it's fun and it helps me not think too much. So I am going with everyone's version of pressure drop. toots and the maytals - (reggae - I know), the clash, the specials, will even throw keith richards in there.....come-on.

How about Amy Winehouse - mostly awesome, but just talking about the ska tie in today - (she did some work with the specials too) - monkey man.

have to run, but will continue this later

Big hugs to everyone here!!

Yay! U. You so had me worried and rightly so from what you have written.

I am hating the fact that I am not a multi-millionaire with my own jet so I can fly around the world a see my DB friends and provide them with the biggest of Christmas hugs and love - I am actually be quite the life of the party at times.

You would be my first stop U. There is more to say about your above post, but I just want to send you some love. I love to wrap my arms around you in a big hug and tell you everything will be alright.

I will be around for most of the day, so please post again.

Tuesday morning 08.15am NZ time. Oh I guess you will be sleeping. Lol

Lots of love ((((U)))))

JellyB xxx

U

I am eating out my freezer, don't have the heat on, washing my clothes in my bath water once a week to save cash. I shower at my gym. I use refillable bottles of water in the gym.

Buying second hand boots, visiting �1 shops for essentials I am running out of. I buy older veg on discount and juice them.

My shower has been out of action and I can't afford to have it fixed. The tenants dishwasher broke I gave them mine.

I sold my wedding dress to buy Xmas presents, cards and stamps to post. I scrimp I save. I make my own essential oil washing liquid. I am using the scraps in the bags, the freebie samples. No Xmas tree this year.

I am working about 80 hours a week and it isn't enough. I am falling behind.

I came to my Brighton flat because the toilet cistern is overflowing and I fixed it myself. Waste of my time really but saved cash.

So I get it. I will not go under Mahhty.

Thinking of you.

I love Anc idea on the treasure hunt. Have you thought of making tree decorations? Glitter, glue, and paper are usually available from scrap schemes.

V

Hi U,

Just wanted to stop by and say Merry Christmas to you. I hope the day is joyful as it can be. I have thought about you a lot over the last week. I wish Santa could have brought us together in a way to really share some yule tide fun. But really being with a friend like you over this time would have been incredibly nice.

You are never far from my thoughts U. Much love to you and your children. Next year Christmas at mine!

Lots of love

JellyB xxx

Hi V - I hope that it didn't sound like I was complaining too much, or that I offended you by talking about my financial problems - truly I am grateful for what I have and know that my complaints are only based on where I would like to be, but stuck in the mud a little right now. I feel bad that I complained when - I am not starving, I have amazing kids, a warm house, some great friends and family and need nothing else.

Christmas was more like diet christmas or christmas-lite as far as decorations and presents went, but the real feelings and the meanings resurfaced once I put away my own expectations for how things should be and stayed in the moment, making fun times and making fun/memorable times RIGHT NOW as there may not be another opportunity for a while or ever.

and Ancaire, thank you so much for checking in here. I love your ideas of fun memorable times. I agree that the gifts that I remember as a kid were actually the goofy ones the most. I think the hard part of this is allowing the kids to get used to the change of what we were and how we did things compared to what we are and how we do things now. We did our best.

I think my own expectations exceeded theirs.

Hi Jelly - thank you for the Christmas wishes. I hope you had a great one too - I wish santa could have sent me to NZ - kind of just want out of here and meeting you would be a perfect present.

Christmas was survivable - very lonely for the most part, but I survived and the kids are with me now for a couple days. STBX is pushing the schedule with the kids more than I would like, and I am not getting as much time with them over the break. on Christmas day they were only "allowed" to be with me for an hour which turned into a whirlwind of overwhelming activity (one hour visit in from d15, S18, S21 - GF and 4 visiting dogs to go along with my dog and new cat (d15's pet). Chaos and then empty again - I didn't mind the chaos, I just wish they could have stayed longer for everything to calm down a bit. But they had to go to back to their mother's and then Grandparents.

The way the holidays were set up this time the kids were with her on my time so I lost a couple of days with them (not that I'm keeping score - or maybe I am).

Not a word from or to STBX aside from me sending her a message today that I wanted the kids to stay with me for dinner tonight instead of our normal sunday night dinner at other parent's house. I have not seen them much and was our first opportunity for a nice sit-down dinner. I do feel a little guilty for changing the schedule, but I felt short-changed.

They will be leaving me before new year's eve too and I suspect that I am going to have a hard time with this. See - NYD is always a big celebration for our former family. It'll be my last anniversary with STBX - not that I am with her - and though I feel fully detached from her, I suppose that it will cross my mind and no kids to help diffuse those thoughts. I will likely go watch some football somewhere that day - bah.

Again I really wish to get out of here - but cannot right now. I am going to take the kids on a quick road trip in February to visit some x-family in Florida (kind of funny to think that it is my x-family but not the kid's x-family). SIL invited me and kids down and I think I will take her up on it. My BIL & SIL with their kids are something that I do not want to lose.

I have been thinking and I have hinted to the kids that I am going to disappear for a while next summer. I am planning a road/camping trip and am going to head west (may take the kids for part of the trip - or all of it if they want). Just a plan right now but I just really want to disappear.

teardrop - massive attack

Peace & Love
Chicago-10:30pm

u-turn

Great choice!

Manic Street Preachers motorcycle emptiness.

Monday 28th 5.56pm

U,

I am sorry that the schedule for contact with your children is not working out. I know I am likely preaching a bit, but it has long been my impression that STBX takes advantage of your willing and compromising nature.

If STBX had Christmas, why are you not having NY Eve or Day? Surely there is room for compromise. Do you have some worry about putting your wants and wishes out there with STXW?

To be frank I think feeling short changed is probably a reasonable response to losing time with your kids. However if you are not asking for what you want more often then you are leaving yourself open to not feeling good. Please don't do that to yourself.

The trips sound good, something to look forward to and creating memories for you children.

I wish you were having an easier road U. All I can do is encourage you to come by and post more. You really don't have to carry this alone. I do wonder if this is pattern of behaviour, where you isolate and shut down in times of stress and crisis, and merely survive.

U it is so unnecessary to face this all alone. I have thought for sometime now that letting other's love, help and support you seems like such a hard thing for you to accept or ask for. Is this my assumption or something that might true? Is this something that didn't work for you in your relationships/work?

I hope you pop back soon U

Much Love

JellyB XXX

U

Rest assured I am ok!

Haven't dumpster dived yet although I think of it

Please U listen to Jellyb, have your full involvement with your kids. It is so important.

These times are precious you only get them once.

V

Snow Patrol - chasing cars

Hey there Jelly - I've always loved chasing cars - used to be a you and me against the world song in my opinion - at least that's what I think of. I liked it now too when it's me and me against the world - and I don't mean that to sound like poor me, just a different way of looking at things. Thanks - great selection.

Manic Street Preachers motorcycle emptiness - I have never heard of them before, I need a couple listens to this though. Isn't it cool that there is way more that we don't know than what we are actually familiar with? Kind of a good way to look at life right now.

by the way - I must be either easy to figure out or you have woman's intuition is your super power.

I actually do have a fear of asking for things from STBX or stating my wants. I still think that it will seem like weakness or she is doing me a favor if she gives into something that I want. I do not want her to do me any favors. I do feel that she takes advantage of the and did so last week.

Though I am going to ask to keep the kids on part of Thursday instead of switching on Wednesday. I would like to make a great new year's eve dinner before they go (even if it is earlier in the day). I think that I will be satisfied by this - the kids said that they would like that too.

and

Yes - not asking for help and actually discouraging those that try to help me has been a pattern in most parts of life. business - yes. I have tried to become the expert at everything - but sometimes I have found that not getting other viewpoints or solutions has left me stagnant.

maybe that's true in my friendships too. I think that friends found me helpful - I am always the first to help others and give all of myself for them, but a bit too removed and solitary to allow others into my life and my troubles.

I don't think I was that way with my wife - I think we leaned on each other and helped each other (we would ask each other for help), but maybe I am just not seeing it. Some of her complaints about me after BD was about our life being all about me and my career. I don't completely agree with that as I made some MAJOR sacrifices in my life and career for our family and the quality time that I could provide.

though - come to think of it,

it was another complaint that I was giving too much to everyone and not enough to her. She felt that she was the only person in the world that I could say no to. Maybe that was true.

But that's beyond the question that you asked - but it made me think.

new song that I really like - Bahamas-all the time - maybe this is what I need to play in my head all the time.

Thanks for being here Jelly
u-turn

V-dumpster diving - yeah I haven't been there yet either - but reminds me of a nightly youthful events at the local doughnut shop that got rid of their extras every night - friends and I ate well as kids

Sharing the kids like this is such a strange thing for me - as it must be for the kids too. It seems like I prepare for the kids coming over like I would if I had guests coming over for a visit. I clean and get everything in tip-top shape, try to fill the fridge and cupboards. but it takes a night to feel like they are my kids and this is their house. Then the night before they leave, it is the same. Preparing for them to leave - getting their laundry done and helping them pack.

It must suck for them, but such is life I guess.

Thanks for checking in V

Originally Posted By: u-turn

Lovely U,

Yes Chasing Cars, well if you put great lyrics and melody like that and partner it up with Greys Anatomy and a tragic love storyline, it was bound to leave a romantic girl like me swooning and using it as the soundtrack to her own tragic lovestory meltdown. Lol Anyway it is a fav and love the angsty melody.

I have to thank you lovely U. A few weeks ago while reading your post I realised that you and I have this terrible habit of never asking for help and putting ourselves last. I realised I am just absolutely terrible at looking after and caring and loving myself. It was there in your words and my sad attempt at supporting to you, I found myself looking directly into the mirror.

The exchange has been life changing (if that can happen in a few weeks). I decided that my self-torture and self imposed exile from the human race was a choice and not a universal determination. That my feelings of separateness from other's was a construct I have been using for various reasons, fear mostly - fear of being seen, fear of being hurt, fear of being rejected for who I really am.

I have posted more on these boards in the last three weeks, than I have done since I joined the site in March 2015. I have experienced more shift these last few weeks than I have done in this whole year.

I have you to thank. We are very similar you and I U. I say this hestiantly, but I am going to say it, it's a brash statement to say that you know someone who you have never met. But I do know the places you hide so love won't find you. I know the places you hide so you affirm that you are not entitled to ask for what you want.

I dont have any super-powers I just know what you deny yourself thinking that you are not worthy.

You are worthy of asking your STBXW to have your children and to ask her to be open to compromise while you co-parent together. That is not a favour U, that is a reasonable and rightful expectation and request to have of the mother of your children.

If for now your cannot advocate for yourself in this area, then advocate on behalf of your children, until to feel comfortable to ask for yourself.

I have so much to say to you lovely U, but this is not the place and indeed my desire to both hug you (because I feel your hurt) and slap you (because you are denying yourself so much happiness), are entirely inappropriate. (note I am not an advocate for violence or slapping - well slapping is entirely appropriate in some contexts wink, wink)

What I am about to say is indeed - my stuff projecting on to you, but also I think I desire to see some shift for you too. Let us support you U, take a leap of faith on an anonymous group of people, sane and insane, kind, hurting, generous people. Share some of U with us. Show up just for the support and love, so you can feel it. You are worthy U. I know it feels scary, but it could be well worth it.

The other thing I have been thinking, you have a group of people who joined the boards at the same time you did, who are in Surviving the Big D, who understand more than anyone the trials and tribulations of dealing with this next bit. Seek their advice and support. The comradrie in that board is strong and the people are kind and generous. The board feels positive and alive, but real and human.

V has asked you for your new chapter. Maybe it is time to start it there.

I am sorry if I have been harsh and too bold. But I really do care for you, and I want my friend to have joy and peace in abundance.

If I have over-stepped my mark, feel free to ignore. I would never be a offended.

As always U

Kia Kaha and Arohanui

JellyBXXX

Somebody that I used to know - Goyte

New Years Eve 4.58pm NZ time

Happy New Year U. Hope you dinner with your lovely children was everything you hoped for.

Much love

JellyBxxx

I see asking for that which you need especially with the children as real strength not weakness.

As long as you have your boundary and are clear and fair, that is true manliness and uber uber attractive.

Time for a new year resolution on it?

Happy New Year

V

thanks everyone for the new year wishes. it means so much to have you here - more than you can even imagine.

I had a good week with the kids although shorter than I would like - and they said it felt like they just got here. I guess it's a good thing that they feel like time goes by quickly when they are here. They must not dread it.

I had a great dinner with them before they left on NYE - I think they enjoyed it - it was different than I had ever made before for them.

When they left, I definetly fealt deflated and angry. I had bit of a rage and broke some things. I fealt stupid (good thing no one saw it), but I justified it - I have the right to feel angry.

New Years day - a day for reflection - and I have much to reflect about.

I had thoughts of burning this f-ing haunted house down and walking away from it all - just disapearing. But - I know that's not who I am. I have responsibilities. I am not this failed relationship, I am not this villian that I have been painted as, I am not as weak as she believes,

So rather than burn it down, I decided to change it. Seems minor, but it's major to me. I moved all of the furniture out of the kids rooms and am re-painting them, switching them, creating new spaces for them. I am reminded daily of my former life and that needs to change. I don't know if the kids want this, but it is a new life for them too. They will be surprised at least.

I have been accused of not knowing how to relax. On a day and weekend that I could have sat in front of the tv watching football, that would not suite me right now.

--

Jelly & V. I have a feeling that power STBXW will try to bowl me over when it comes to the kids and make me feel like I'm a bully when I want things. I cannot let this happen. I cannot lose my time with them - it's the only thing that I have to value right now.

V-thank you!! I understand this. I am writing my goals so I can see them and work toward them. Not just think them and let them occupy a seldom used part of my brain.

Funny thing - 22nd aniversary, not expecting or wanting any kind of message from WW as she ignored it last year when we were still living together - it was a tough day on a very long list of tough days. But she did text me mid day "do you want to contribute to d15's dress? - you don't have to - just asking." It's a dress for a winter formal dance that they picked out and bought on lay away.

I ignored it until this morning and said "yes. I will" This is for my daughter, and though I have payed her school bills off so she could go to the dance, this is something that D15 cannot see. So I will help pay for the dress.

Jelly - Intriguing slap - makes me think.....

Thank you so much for your honesty and boldness - that is not out of place and I appreciate it - definitely no apologies necessary - I feel like I probably could use some screaming at as well - I cannot be offended.
and thank you right back for being here for me. I really feel like I provide no value around here and only take, but thank you for saying that I helped at all.

I too need to stop the self torture this year - that's a goal (ever so slight and obvious) but I need to move forward and find it very hard to break the cycle the kids coming and going sure doesn't help with this.

I have begun lurking over in the surviving the big D forum - I hear some old familiar voices over there and may move there - please find me there if I do. I may be the farthest thing from a newcomer and I do get punched in the gut when I read the same newcomer story over and over, knowing that my story would not be a success story in their minds and have nothing to add to there stories except maybe what not to do or to really let go as quickly as possible, like imedietly and not try to linger and hang on and try to fix things for months and months, because looking back at that time and wasted effort is just that - wasted and gone.

never going back again - fleetwood mac

Hey - somebody that I used to know - that song never really hit me as anything except some people moving through relationships like warn out shoes. not really putting much value in them - just give me my stuff back and I'll write a song about it. I feel much differently about it now.

Peace & Love to you
u-turn

I can understand how hard it can be to see all the newcomers and think your not a success. Success is not always measured the same. D or R, success or failure could be either way and all the real newcomer wants is some type of reassurance they will get their S back, which is the wrong way to view things. A healthy does of the reality of all our situations isnt a bad thing.

I just get overwhelmed to see the floods of new names that appear and replace the sitches that I was trying to keep up with. Then once I get adjusted to the new set of names and find a few to follow they drop off some and a new flood replaces it. Knowing the pain they're all experiencing is heartbreaking and it never seems to stop. It also pulls me back to my own feelings around BD.

I see many that stick around end up moving to the other sections of the forums and I can see why.

Think it's great you changed the house to suit what you needed. That was one reason I decided to move out. I didn't have anything financially invested into our townhouse as it was a rental and I knew those memories would keeping bringing up the same old emotions. Make it your own, it has nothing to do with that relationship anymore.

Lovely to see your post U

thanks everyone for the new year wishes. it means so much to have you here - more than you can even imagine.

I had a good week with the kids although shorter than I would like - and they said it felt like they just got here. I guess it's a good thing that they feel like time goes by quickly when they are here. They must not dread it.

Why would your lovely children dread spending time with their love dad

I had a great dinner with them before they left on NYE - I think they enjoyed it - it was different than I had ever made before for them.

What did you do?

When they left, I definetly fealt deflated and angry. I had bit of a rage and broke some things. I fealt stupid (good thing no one saw it), but I justified it - I have the right to feel angry.

Yay some emotion other than sadness! And describing feelings. You're never stupid for feeling this sh*tty stuff U. I am a great proponent of better out than in. It is a good thing that it is coming to the surface, you have held it in far to long. It needs to come out. Suggestion though, break stuff that doesn't matter. Great way to get rid of it all, the stuff don't want and won't go with the remodeling.

New Years day - a day for reflection - and I have much to reflect about.

I had thoughts of burning this f-ing haunted house down and walking away from it all - just disapearing. But - I know that's not who I am. I have responsibilities. I am not this failed relationship, I am not this villian that I have been painted as, I am not as weak as she believes,

So rather than burn it down, I decided to change it. Seems minor, but it's major to me. I moved all of the furniture out of the kids rooms and am re-painting them, switching them, creating new spaces for them. I am reminded daily of my former life and that needs to change. I don't know if the kids want this, but it is a new life for them too. They will be surprised at least.

I have been accused of not knowing how to relax. On a day and weekend that I could have sat in front of the tv watching football, that would not suite me right now.

This type of change is good U. Environment matters. I really struggled living in the homes of my partners, they never felt like mine. I never felt able to put my stamp, my mark on something that they had worked and paid for. I always wanted either something new or something shared. I won't be making that mistake the next time around.

This is a beautiful distraction and hard graft is good for the soul. Enjoy creating something new for you and children U.

I know now is not the time given your financial constraints. But have you ever considered designing something to build and live in for yourself.

Not sure if you are following Mutatio or 2lt2lt but both are tech teachers - I think and are into art and design. You should crack onto their threads. 2lt2lt joked about starting up a welding thread.

--

Jelly & V. I have a feeling that power STBXW will try to bowl me over when it comes to the kids and make me feel like I'm a bully when I want things. I cannot let this happen. I cannot lose my time with them - it's the only thing that I have to value right now.

Well I guess that given this valuable to you, you will be setting some boundaries with STBXW re your contact with the children.Having something you love possibly threatened is a great motivation for acting when it's not your natural position

V-thank you!! I understand this. I am writing my goals so I can see them and work toward them. Not just think them and let them occupy a seldom used part of my brain.

I'm going to try and gather some courage and put mine on my next thread. You want to join me?

Funny thing - 22nd aniversary, not expecting or wanting any kind of message from WW as she ignored it last year when we were still living together - it was a tough day on a very long list of tough days. But she did text me mid day "do you want to contribute to d15's dress? - you don't have to - just asking." It's a dress for a winter formal dance that they picked out and bought on lay away.

You're a good man U. I hope you feel you can make the same request of STBXW when it comes to it

I ignored it until this morning and said "yes. I will" This is for my daughter, and though I have payed her school bills off so she could go to the dance, this is something that D15 cannot see. So I will help pay for the dress.

Jelly - Intriguing slap - makes me think.....

Thank you so much for your honesty and boldness - that is not out of place and I appreciate it - definitely no apologies necessary - I feel like I probably could use some screaming at as well - I cannot be offended.
and thank you right back for being here for me. I really feel like I provide no value around here and only take, but thank you for saying that I helped at all.

I too need to stop the self torture this year - that's a goal (ever so slight and obvious) but I need to move forward and find it very hard to break the cycle the kids coming and going sure doesn't help with this.

GAL will be important in 2016 - we both need to get onto this one. Not a natural thing for either us. I except you to call me on it.

I have begun lurking over in the surviving the big D forum - I hear some old familiar voices over there and may move there - please find me there if I do. I may be the farthest thing from a newcomer and I do get punched in the gut when I read the same newcomer story over and over, knowing that my story would not be a success story in their minds and have nothing to add to there stories except maybe what not to do or to really let go as quickly as possible, like imedietly and not try to linger and hang on and try to fix things for months and months, because looking back at that time and wasted effort is just that - wasted and gone.

Think Fogg summed this up beautifully and I will definitely follow you over to STBD forum. I believe it is a good decision.

I hope to see you back soon U, covered in paint and the sweat of the hard work you are doing. Come and have a beersies ( kiwi for having a beer) with me.

Talk soon

Love JellyBxxx

Hi Jelly and Fogg, I wanted to thank you for commenting and giving me support here and will get back to you on your comments.

I have run into a little snag - or at least something that I was never expecting.

Out of the blue today STBXW sends me a text message:

"I am truly sorry for the pain I caused you and us. I don't blame you for hating my guts...I am a terrible person for what I did to you and will spend the rest of my time here on earth paying for it."

and an hour later:

"why did I need to say it? I don't know...but it is how I feel. I don't deserve your kindness and I appreciate your willingness to co-parent."

I have been dark with her. Very little communication in the last two months. Though...she stopped by over the weekend with D15 who she was having a big problem with. I was able to calmly talk to d15 and WW to help them resolve it. I told d15 of my expectations when she is at my house and her mom agreed.

W thanked me for allowing them to come over and for my help with this. I felt really proud of myself for my parenting and being able to do so with W standing there. I have a feeling she was impressed.

She knows I am changing the house around, she knows that I don't come to her for anything, but she has asked me for things.

W is has thanked me for helping pay for d15s formal dress, even though I had nothing to do with determining the budget on such a luxury. I will help when I can. There are also extra school bills now that will have to be handled for s18 - I am handling those.

Those text messages may be just to sooth me and trying to say something in response to those things that I have done or am doing for her and the kids - or maybe it is actual remorse.. I really don't know.

But I also really don't know how to respond to this. I have ignored it so far, but that doesn't seem like I should just keep ignoring it.

She's not asking for anything, but I am usually not the type to just let a statement like that be ignored without a reply. Though, I feel like I have moved or am moving to a calm spot and this is not what I expected and maybe not even wanted at this point. I mean, I do appreciate her thoughts toward this, I don't disagree with most of what she said (though I really don't feel that I hate her), but I also don't know if I want to start a conversation about this and potentially move myself away from my calm spot.

I know I don't ask for much around here, but if there are any thoughts, I would love to hear them.

Thank you!!
u-turn

Note it, make a neutral comment like Thank you.

Move on.

Does this make you reassess the kid issue?

V

Hey U I'm with V on this one, neutral and staying in your calm spot. You're a great dad U. I am pleased to see you giving yourself a high 5. Also nice to see you post about this.

Jellyb xxx

Thanks V & Jelly for swooping in!!

Yes I think I will respond neutrally - I don't want to really get into a conversation about this at this point in time.

Likely:

You really didn't need to say any of that, but thank you. Also - I don't hate you.

no more than that. Anything else and something could drag on.

I went to my IC tonight and mentioned all of this, she agreed to keep it simple, but asked if by the way she worded the text if I was worried she was depressed or would hurt herself. I had thought that too. She said that I could mention that she could talk to someone about this and that the IC has helped me.

I don't think that I will do this though.
----

V-From this weekend and this message, I think she must value me as a parent, I know the kids value me as a parent. Unfortunately, they saw the imbalance of time over the holidays and S18 sees the imbalance of who pays for what. I think that I need to hide that better - I don't involve him in a way to make him side with me or change his opinion of his mom, but more to show that most bills are not for fun things (more necessities and daily things). He is going to be on his own too soon and I want to teach him about these things.

Having W & d15 over for me to help solve a problem made me think that I am doing ok in everyone's eyes (including my own) and makes me think that the time the kids are with me is valuable to them (and me) so - yes, I will be enforcing a balance.

Thanks again - I'll be back later to update from before. I have some questions to answer

u-turn

U
Yes time to reevaluate on the children.

The pink elephant ok!

I don't hate you.....

Try

I am disappointed you feel that way and I think I understand.

Validate

V

You ok?

V

Wonderwall Oasis:

Today is gonna be the day
That they're gonna throw it back to you
By now you should've somehow
Realized what you gotta do
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, about you now

Back beat, the word was on the street
That the fire in your heart is out
I'm sure you've heard it all before
But you never really had a doubt
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do about you now

And all the roads we have to walk are winding
And all the lights that lead us there are blinding
There are many things that I
Would like to say to you but I don't know how

Because maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me
And after all, you're my wonderwall

Today was gonna be the day
But they'll never throw it back to you
By now you should've somehow
Realized what you're not to do
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, about you now

And all the roads that lead you there are winding
And all the lights that light the way are blinding
There are many things that I
Would like to say to you but I don't know how

I said maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me
And after all, you're my wonderwall

I said maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me
And after all, you're my wonderwall

I said maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me
You're gonna be the one that saves me
You're gonna be the one that saves me

Noel Gallagher Oasis

I believe I am ok - I don't know for sure though.

I am concerned that I am not cut out for the change that I forced onto myself. That text message from the other day has spun me around a little. I ended up responding to her as I wrote and said that I didn't hate her. I do realize that this was not written with validation in mind, just my feelings. V - I wish I had written something like you did above.

I still feel like re-visiting this and sending her another message - one that validates her feelings more. I don't think that this would help anything. I still care that she is sad - and I know this is her doing, but I feel myself turning back to the old fix-it me. I need to check this.

I ran into STBX at a swim meet yesterday and I let just the sight of her change me. I did say hi to her when I walked by to the concession stand, but that was it, I grabbed some food and headed back up to the stands. I ran into her again after the meet and talked to her a very little about some logistical things and she left without saying anything. she seemed very sad. this saddened me for a while.

The kids went to their mother's for dinner tonight, when they got home s18 talked to me about how d15 is treating her mother. Not giving her much attention, not talking to her, being mean and having an attitude with their mom. S18 told me he felt bad for his mom and she had tears in her eyes when she was dealing with d15 and when they left. STBXW told d15 that she needs to go to a therapist.

This saddens me. S18 said that he would like me to help. I told him that there wasn't very much that I can do for their relation ship with their mom. Also, that D15 may have a lot of different feelings about this whole situation than he does. There may be a lot of feelings that she has that he doesn't. It is not my place to get in the middle of their relationship any more. and I apologized to him. He said that he understood, but I think he wished that would step in again.

I feel ok, but when I have any interaction with her, it changes me. I get sad and re-visit a lot of old feeling. So I avoid any contact with her. But when I dig deep into what I really am feeling, I think that there's some little corner of my mind that still wants it all back again. I wanted to tell S18 that tonight when he was talking to me , but I didn't. I didn't want to give him any false hope that I was going to try and get back together with her.

----

Jelly - I owe you some answers from a week ago.
I splurged on dinner for nye and grilled some steak and boiled some crab legs. The kids really enjoyed it - so did I. I haven't made a dinner like that in a very long time (happier times).

Painting turned out really well. I worked really hard to get it all together by the time the kids came back on Wednesday night - I made it in time. They were so surprised and seem to really like everything. I have to wait on the second phase of this because I can't afford any new bedding or decorative items at this point, but in time. I really like doing house projects like this - doing this forced me to focus only on this for several days - I felt as if my troubles and sadness were erased for this time - perhaps diluted with paint fumes. I offer my painting services to the db community

I would love a break and to come have some beersies.

I have not ever lived in anything that I designed, but have thought much about what I'd want - I always say maybe someday to that.

Good song selection tonight. Might need a wonderwall. someone to save me from myself - is it you

?

I am very excited that my dear friend that I let down after bd is coming into town this week and asked if I wanted to get a coffee. I was so worried that she wouldn't talk to me any more and this relationship was another that I destroyed. This is the best news I could get abd I hope this works for us this week. This friendship is like gold to me.

peace&love
u-turn

I read your post U. I am really so very happy about your friend, it gives me great comfort that someone you really care about is coming back into your life. it makes me really happy. I am sorry I don't have it in my to give you anything else at the moment, but my friendship and love. JellyBxxx

Tuesday morning 09.30am NZ time

Playing Mr DJ setting the scene for the morning of work, first 5 on the playlist:

1. Sam Smith Latch Acoustic (Live at the Apollo Theater)... (saving you...maybe ;))

2. Calvin Harris & Disciples How deep is you love.

3. Florence and the machine Dog days are over

4. Macklemmore & Ryan Lewis Cant Hold Us

5. Naughty Boy La La La ft Sam Smith

JellyBXXX

Great friendships just have hiccups, they do.

Apologise, don't explain or rationalise, it reduces the apology.

Ask to be forgiven immediately you meet as in "there is something I need to ask your forgiveness for......", accept forgiveness with grace.

Say thank you, I knew you would understand, your friendship is very important to me.

Then BAU.

As for W feel the pain, don't suppress, observe it. It's just feelings they will pass. Sadness is one very important feeling.

D is angry, it's good that she is angry and showing it. Whilst not interfering then the alternative is some good quality dad and D time may be called for. Is there a joint activity you could do with D? Just you and D?

Just validate Ds feelings if she tells you her story, she is entitled to them.

My thoughts U.

V

Lovely U,

You can't leave me and V hanging about your catch up with female friend/former colleague. You mentioned on my thread that you had caught up with some friends who had made you feel more like yourself. Come on baby tell us all, enquiring minds want to know.

It's been a Amy Winehouse kinda day for me. So I am thinking her tribute to the Beatles "All my lovin". Bang for buck!

Jellybxxx

U

Catching up a bit on your sitch, the apologetic TM out of left field was quite a curve from your w eh? Thing is you moved a bit from where she had out you along with the reality of the situation may actually be setting in for her. My w did the same last year around this time and it caught me off guard as well, however i was in a place a text is a text, I did not see that as an apology not as a means to make things right so it did not change much for me other than the knowledge she actually peeked out of fantasyville for a second and somewhat acknowledged her behavior..... True remorse, not so much, even now... She has apologized but more in a "I said I was sorry" way.
My advice, stay the course, I see a lot of self reflection in your posts and that's where true growth lives, it gets better regardless of what they do, it's our journey and the way was navigate it will define who we become
As always ... A brother in the trench here with you I wish you a far better 2016, can't be as bad as the previous right?

I am all agog.......

V

Hey everyone, it's been a while again and not much new to report here - I just seem to be in a regular day to day now, which isn't a terrible place to be, but not very dynamic.

V-I used your precious advice when I went to meet my friend. She graciously accepted my apology and we talked for hours.

I updated her on my story, which she was shocked by. I think she though W & I would have worked things out, I gave her all the bloody details as I stopped telling her my stories in January of 2015. She was shocked by this, and I think pleasantly surprised by my actions and movement.

She surprised me also that she had a six week old baby too. How life moves when you aren't watching. I felt a little bad for missing all of the excitement (though she does live in Rio currently (Olympics) and I wouldn't have seen much anyway). She invited me to go out on Friday and then again on Saturday, which I did both. On Saturday I went out to dinner with her entire family and some additional friends too. It was such a good time. She headed back to South America today and I wont see her for a very long time. I hope we can keep some kind of communication.

On Saturday I also saw another friend and her family that I hadn't seen for 10 years. I used to work with her too and she introduced me to her kids as her friend, mentor and had so many compliments about who I used to be I almost choked up. I remember that guy too. I have to find him again, wake him up and see where he can fit into my life.

Since last weekend, there has not been too much action. Busy with work, busy with kids (they are with me now), busy with finances, but I am not panicky about any of it currently.

I attempted to talk about cutting back or stopping my IC sessions, but she easily convinced me that it may be best to keep coming. I do not want to backtrack, so as forward movement goes, I will not make the change.

I will be taking a trip in mid march to visit my (former?) brother & sister-in-law in FL. I have been talking with her almost weekly now, and that's comforting for me too. She doesn't want me to disappear, and says she would love for me to come down with the kids. I have not talked to her much about our situation, it has mostly been catching up about the kids and generally fun stuff. She does know that we are divorcing and that WW went off the deep end, but I have not told any details. I'm sure some will come out while on vacation (I have not taken a vacation in 2 years - and the last one I took was horrible, (It was when I discovered OM and confronted W about their A

).

I think this one will be good. Just D15, S18 and me.

Cali - Thanks for stopping in.
That apology, yeah, it was out of the blue and just a one time event. I was actually worried that I didn't respond enough, but then as there was no follow up by her, I knew that a simple thanks was enough.

I am plodding forward (at a snails pace)

Funny thing about 2016 - you are probably the 5th person to say that "hey - it won't be too hard to have a better year than last" or something of the sort. I think that is true.

Thanks brother - I hope for a good year for you too.

Ah Jelly - thanks for sticking with me and my erratic timing.

Getting out last weekend to visit with my old dear friends was great for me. It was certainly out of my normal pattern, but I wasn't completely uncomfortable either. I wasn't meeting any new people (besides all of their new kids who I haven't met before - but I love being with kids. I felt like the bad-influence-uncle that was having who can crunch the chips the loudest competitions at the restaurant). With all of that company, I didn't really want the evening to end. I sound a bit pathetic, but I haven't really been around people socially for a very very long time.

---

Yes - Amy Winehouse, you can never go wrong there.

So being stuck indoor a lot, I listen to a lot of music - I get board and reach back to some things from my past. a bit melancholy tonight for some reason:

Damien Rice, just about everything, but how about - 9 crimes

Aaron Copland - "the promise of living" (c'mon give it a try)

Brandi Carlile - the story

and then

Bruce Springsteen was in town this week - so how about - badlands

oh - want fun ...... how about everclear - santa monica

Lots of love
u-turn

How is dad and D R going?

Sounds like you had a really thought provoking weekend with great repair.

Hugs

V

Hi U,

Just catching up on things. Sorry I have not been too present. I think we have a lot in common- we are both less frequent posters. But this especially resonated with me:

Quote:

I actually do have a fear of asking for things from STBX or stating my wants. I still think that it will seem like weakness or she is doing me a favor if she gives into something that I want. I do not want her to do me any favors. I do feel that she takes advantage of the and did so last week.

the dynamic between me and STBX seems very, almost eerily, similar to the dynamic between you and your STBX. You just happen to be a bit further along and your kids are a bit older.

I am always wondering whose sitch is closest to mine. You are definitely not alone here.

Now for the real reason I am writing. I love the game you are playing with JellyB suggesting songs to each other. For some reason it made me think of a song that I love and can't believe that I didn't post it sooner. It's an old one but I think you will like it.

The Grapes of Wrath - All the things I wasn't

RAI

U OK?

V

Hi V.
I am doing alright, I think. I feel like I am just plugging along and being as safe as possible with everything.

My relationship with D15 seems strong to me. When she is with me, we have a great time. She also accepts no as an answer from me when warranted without too much fight. (pretty normal teen stuff).

I hope my trip with them in March will bring us closer. That is how I envision it. Creating new memories of the places that we used to go as a family. I will be visiting W's brother and SIL.

D15 had a choir performance today and both STBXW and I were there separately. She offered me a seat next to her, but it was full of coats, so I sat down behind her. Before they started, I leaned forward and I told her one of my sarcastic witty one-liners about delay. WW laughed out loud. She used to love my sense of humor and I showed her that I still have it.

I helped her carry some of the coats she was holding for the girls, gave them to the girls and we both left without a word toward each other.

I always prepare myself to run into OM & OMW at events at this high school. (It was in their town today). I usually mentally prepare responses to all kinds of scenarios but didn't see them today. Politely introduce myself to her as someone who has some great stories to share and to look me up if she'd like to hear them. Sometimes I feel like I have their fate in my hands and have the ability to destroy their family at any moment. This has been a burden on my mind for almost two years now.

All that aside, I feel as if I am still moving forward, but have so far to go. I still have times of sadness and loneliness when the kids are not with me. I keep myself busy all the time. I have a couple new commissions that will keep the bills payed for the quarter, I have volunteered to run a couple student competition groups at school, S18 and I are designing and building some cool furniture for some past clients of mine (S18 is fabricating and welding the steel for this) and I am teaching D15 to drive.

Sometimes I feel bad for W because she is missing out on our awesomeness.

Thanks for checking in Lady V - good luck with your deadlines

u-turn

Your WW is losing out on her family, for nothing but fresh air.

I think this kind of OM has dalliances real and imagined a plenty, and his W is a put up and shut up. Any other kind would reign him in, he has it really cushy. I doubt he would change for a new version, that might clip his wings!!! Or something!

I doubt OMW would hear you even if you used a megaphone, unlikely so I sense you could put that fear to rest.

Rest easy dear U. No apple carts to upset.

V

Hey U-turn

I hope you don't mind if I stop by your place. It feels like we haven't really connected in a long time. I guess we are both drifting away from this place.

Life is moving on, wounds of loss and grief are healing and closing and scarring up nicely.

In saying that there is a huge lump of grief in my throat today.

I'm not sure what it is but it's there and it's overwhelming and there is no reason for it.

Sometimes I get so overwhelmed reading people's pain and troubles and seeing them fight so desperately to have a control and influence over their situation, that in all gods honest truth they have absolutely none. And they fight this fact.

Will the pain of this ever stop U. Not my pain. I am fully at ease with mine. But the people here their pain.

I am at loss to post on people's threads at the moment because it seems to me that to let go of the pain seems to them to let go of the love they have of their beloved. To let go of pain means giving up hope that they will have their lives back. And future, a family. Who wants to pop that bubble, but saying you know what walk away and live your life and it all might come back.

I want to say this is all just a moment in time. It ends all so quickly. Why are we all so scared of just being, afraid of having that conversation where we are vulnerable and openhearted.

Does the fear of the loss of the other, superseed the loss of the self in not fully honoring one's own truth, to provide oneself with release from the pain.

I am learning that expectation and over attachment to another person brings nothing but pain. But true love and connection without expectation and over attachment is divine.

I don't know U, some days I feel like the smallest child in the smallest boat on the biggest ocean, under the most expansive sky. I bob up and down in my little boat, wondering why. It makes me so sad at times. And yet I am in complete awe that we have this strange, odd experience that is life.

U, I didn't know who else to share this with. It is likely too much.

I hope your children are adoring you and I you finding some joy and love in other places too.

If you ever find I'm not around. I am easy enough to find on DB FB. Follow the Hobbit.

So much love for you. You have become a friend and I am happy for that.

Jellyxxx

Oh dear JB - mind?! why on earth would I mind? I always love to hear from you - and today this especially made me feel as if I have a friend. We surely are traveling down some of the same overgrown paths on opposite sides of the world.

I am finding myself drifting away here. I guess that is the process that I see anyway. I started here several months after bd completely broken-hearted and obsessed with fixing everything. For such a long time I felt that my ww was different from others and this will pass when she realizes what a mistake she has made. Every - single - day - I waited for this thinking - today's the day she will walk through the door crying and say that she is sorry. I was always trying to control the situation and fix it. It could never have been done. I didn't listen just as most newcomers don't. I clearly made my situation worse by trying. I clearly made myself worse by trying (nearly to the point of being x-u-turn). I was so scared of losing this woman, this family. I was so ashamed of being beaten by OM. I was no longer a man. I could not face this.

When I read the newcomer's stories, I remember and sometimes re-feel those terrible feelings. Sometimes it just opens up those old wounds and I want that to be just ancient history to me.

I felt no peace - none, until she left. and then slowly I have been becoming me, though that guy was always there, just hiding away. When the sh!t really hit the fan it was like I my brain was scrambled and I was locked away - barely functioning. I thought at the time it was happening, I wasn't that bad, but looking back from where I am now, I scoff at that guy, what the fnck was I thinking?

I really do feel like I am healing now and there was no healing until I let go. There was no figuring myself out while living in that situation. In-house separation was the worst thing for me, for us, for the kids. There was barely any movement and the only movement that happened was cyclical.

Now I can evaluate what is broken and what is salvageable. I can attempt to re-build myself and continue being a great father.

I understand that the level of attachment that I had was not healthy for our relationship (i think) but I sure do miss doing this for someone else. I miss having a muse. I miss being loved and sad to say, I miss putting someone else's wants and needs above my own.

I worry about how I have changed. I used to be so trusting, I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt. Now, I am doubtful of peoples intentions so often. I don't want to be this way - though maybe this was a developmental exercise in street-smarts. (ex. S21's gf has waved giant red flags of wayward behavior that I can see - do I warn him? or am I just jaded?)

hey, I spotted you over in fb land - I was going to tap you on the shoulder there, but my page is very old and un-used (even my profile pic is still of w&I - yeesh). I haven't used it since bd, but maybe it's safe for me again???

Sorry for this ramble - and thank you so much for coaxing me out of my cave and sharing some time with me - I am up for it.
BIG hugs and lots of love to you JB.
u-turn

Glad to read that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I loved reading your post U. There is a lightness there in your writing I don't think I have felt before. The reconnection to yourself is coming through loud and clear. I like it. Thanks for posting back. I forget that I need to reach out sometimes when I feel on the periphery of things. I don't need to be there. Tap my shoulder whenever, or not. Jelly xxx

The Blowers Daughter Damien Rice.

XXXX

Originally Posted By: JellyB

Absolutely

V

Hey U,

I doubt you will see this because you have not posted in months, but I want you to know that your last post gave me hope. In-house separation is terrible, but I am inspired by the fact the you found yourself once you were freed.

I hope you are doing well wherever your journey has taken you.

Best wishes,

RAI