http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2577944&page=11Not much to say just yet but here's a new thread. Thanks to my DB family for sharing a heck of a year.
Zues, I have absolutely nothing productive to say except glad I'm amusing you today. I will keep everything else to myself.
It has been a heck of a year. For you, for me, for many of us. It's good we can look back and recognize it as one year in a lifetime. And I wonder what next year will bring. I wish good things for all of us.
And Zues, how was your weekend?
I had a great weekend.
First off, I am getting fired up about my fitness goal. I've worked out 3 days in a row, and just as importantly am watching my consumption. It's hard at first but I know once my body adjusts to eating a little less it will get easier. I weigh in at just under 190 which is as heavy as I've ever been. I don't look grossly overweight, but I do look a little soft. I'm like 5'7-8" so my ideal weight is in the 150s, but I feel and look good in the 170-175 range and when I was at 160-165 a few years ago I was close to ripped...so I'd be satisfied at 165 or below.
I was at around 175 10 months ago and crept up, what tipped it was I had to get my suit pants let up at the tailor 2 inches. I only had 2 pairs adjusted and I vowed to the tailor I'd be back on 9-1. I think in 5 weeks I can lose 10-15 pounds if I get angry. So that's what I'm trying to do. It feels better already. I know that there's a huge difference between adjusting your lifestyle permanently and going on a crash program, but for now I just want to get in better shape first. I'll deal with maintenance later. And while I'm a long ways from being on the dating market, when I am I intend to be looking good. I guess I just see myself in my mind as a trim and fit person, and this just has to go.
So the weekend...I woke up, read, posted on DB, played some chess online and watched some chess, then got a massage. It feels great after a good workout! Then I got together with a friend and played online poker and just had a good time hanging out.
Today I half relaxed and half worked. More chess online and more posting and reading, but then dishes, sweeping/mopping, laundry, and a couple of hours of work.
Maybe that doesn't sound fun, but it absolutely is to me. I'm working on all of my goals, and still having time to do some self care and having some fun.
Work is going well...I had my best month so far in my sales job (month 9). I'm anxious as heck that it will turn around. I KNOW I will do well because it's like a game and I'm in the top fraction of a percentage in both sales and games, it's just how I'm wired...but I also know I get there because I put tremendous pressure on myself.
So working on crushing it at work, losing weight, and keeping my place up. I'll see the kids Tuesday, then I have them this weekend. Looking forward to it, but I've enjoyed having my own time this weekend as well. For me having a meal in my bedroom while watching youtube videos of 1994 pool championship matches is about as good as it gets. Of course there are all of you too!
Thanks for checking in, and have a great week!
Glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks Sunny. Nothing life or death, but tonight I need to share.
So I went to my D8's open house today (summer school/camp). I was the first parent their, and for a moment I wasn't sure if she'd be embarrassed or something. I'm sure that will happen, but not yet. She saw me and just LIT UP, ran to me, hugged me, and excitedly told the class I was her dad. Then she started introducing me to her friends, and I ended up playing games with her and some of her buddies, then seeing what she'd been working on. The only word to describe it was MAGIC, and honestly that falls pretty flat. I am nearly overwhelmed with how much I love my daughter. To think, a couple of years ago I was so depressed I couldn't connect with them...I felt like I was behind a glass wall watching from a distance...I'm SO appreciative I could course correct while I still have time. The day ended with her almost crying I couldn't go home with her, but I have them this weekend.
That leads me to my next point. I know I still have a lot of rage inside of me. It's subtle, because it's MUCH lower than it used to be, and my coping mechanisms have gotten stronger, so I can overlook it...but it's their. I listened to a TED talk today by a woman that was 3 times divorced talking about what she learned and I found myself FURIOUS! She admitted she regretted leaving her first two husbands, but then talked about the growth and what she's learned, etc. It was the one on "The person you should marry" talking about how you had to marry yourself, care for yourself, etc. It was all fine, but I was pissed at this idea that we can cause SO MUCH DESTRUCTION and then just be 'reborn' and talk about how much we've learned and put inspirational messages up on youtube. At some point I am disgusted that our culture celebrates these stories like they're successes when what I see is a woman that destroyed multiple families. I'm glad she's learned from it, but the fact that we act like divorce is just a developmental step in our lives PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm also angry about sex. No, not the current drought I'm in. I'm pissed that I feel the way I feel, and that I feel the gap between me and women will be unbridgeable. I resent my desires, and feel like I was cursed to be a man. The way I feel today I can't visualize being open about my feelings with a woman and being accepted and satisfied, so all I can visualize is gritting my teeth through years of being misunderstood until I die. And I feel like there is so much out there about how relationships should be, how women should be, how men should be, how sex should be, blah blah blah, that I just can't imagine a woman not writing me off in a few years, diagnosing me somehow, leaving me, and then years later having a breakthrough in which they have 'grown from the experience'.
So yeah, they overlap. And I know that anger is a sign that I need to grow more. It is a little discouraging. Part of it is accepting the reality that M will never be as fulfilling as I'd always NEEDED it to be. My last post to 4mykids applies to me too...at times I still feel like I need a woman's love in my life, and for her to show that to me physically.
But only at times. And more and more I feel I don't. More and more I feel very appreciative, grateful, and fulfilled with my life. I guess I'm just trying to keep working on myself, and when I caught that anger trigger in that video I wanted to talk about it.
Sorry if I'm disorganized, maybe I bury it so deep it's hard to articulate.
Take a look at this ted talk instead
https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_r...ved?language=enThat really made me think no wonder I feel so freaking crushed.
Zues, you continue to baffle me about the sex thing. I remember it was a big issue between you and W, and I believe porn was involved also, no? But that's in the past. What makes you think you can't have a relationship that makes both you and a woman sexually satisfied going forward? Resent your desires? Where is that coming from? Desire is a gift granted to humans.
You seem to think you are abnormal. Maybe you do have a higher drive than most. But that's just something you are going to have to pay attention to as you explore new relationships. If you can't be happy until you find a women whose drive matches you own, then don't settle. But there's no need to be pissed off about it Zues. They do exist.
If I have missed the mark here, please do explain. Or tell me to take a hike. Either way
BTW, anger seems to be pretty normal and not something to worry about unless it's interfering with your life or sticks around too long. And I'm pretty sure you aren't the type who would allow that. So, embrace the anger, thank it for showing up, sit with it, and learn the lesson it has to offer. Then it will have served its purpose and it can move on.
Sunny, your post today made me smile, it was the day after your first post and showed that you must have thought of me and my sitch even when you weren't staring at your computer. Thank you for that.
I agree that anger can be ok and necessary. Again, it is only when it overpowers your life that it isn't healthy. That can happen directly, but if you deny it it can leak out and take over in ways you don't even know. The latter is more historic with me, so acknowledging it is a good first step.
I will think more about how to explain my frustration...I have been vague because this is a DB forum, not my IC, and certainly not something I want to get too graphic about...but I think I can find better words that don't involve anything that shouldn't be on a public forum. I'll reflect on that, and I appreciate the help. Reading your posts and those of others has been reassuring.
dmbfan, I watched that link. It did make me angry as well. I agree with almost everything she says...except her underlying premise which seemed to be that cheating was inevitable and we need to learn to learn from it. She compares it to cancer, not a good event, but something that has triggered people to grow and develop into better people.
One big difference is I don't inflict cancer on my spouse. It is a choice. And while she can explain it, and while it may not be a deal breaker in my M...I don't appreciate how she made it casual. Her point that it is common or that is has happened for millenia doesn't make it ok. And I think that sending the message that it can be a catalyst for growth is a big step towards endorsing it.
Look- social stigma was a huge reason people didn't get divorced as often. People say economics which is true...but social acceptance is a BIG deal. Now that D is considered part of our life's growth process by many, people are almost proud that they were 'strong enough' to leave a bad M and 'grow from it'. If the social stigma around cheating erodes and people think we're just out 'learning about what we need in our lives' I think it will increase as well, as will pain, D rates, and broken families, and broken hearts and dreams.
Bottom line, D is not cool, neither is cheating. I'll learn and grow from ALL of life's experiences, but that doesn't mean I won't avoid those that think these behaviors are acceptable and cast my vote saying "NO" to all that.
PS- the cheating wasn't the biggest betrayal. For me BD was the biggest betrayal. Monogamy was one clause of the wedding vows. BD was basically lighting the entire agreement on fire. I am still mind blown that anyone could ever do that. After a year the shock has worn off and I understand other people think that's a path that's reasonable...but I never will. Hopefully someone will feel the same way about it and potentially appreciate that attitude.
Sunny, I'll get back to you, and thank you all.
Hi Zeus,
I find your anger really interesting on this.
Let me start by saying I agree with you entirely about the attitude to D. I was appalled at the rallying around my XWs friends and family did congratulating her fur being so strong to walk out, to break up our family and jump into bed with OM1.
As weddings have got more expensive, marriages have been cheapened.
My XW and her three best friends have 5 failed marriages between them - the longest being 3 years the shortest being 2 weeks (really).
So I'm apalled by it but my anger is because this idea of disposable marriages has hurt me and my kids.
But I'm interested to know more about your anger and what you think is driving it? For example I watched that link dmbfan posted and to me its very in line with DB and the speaker is critical of affairs even if she says that positives can come from it. Anger certainly wasn't my reaction so I thought I'd ask you why you feel it was yours?
In retrospect I wasn't really angry about the video, and as I said I agreed with much of what she had to say. A lot of it was simply discussing the driving needs people have that prompt them to desire more than they have in their R, discussion about how easy it is these days in a digital age to have different betrayals, and was overall just informational.
What I disagree with was her clinical attitude. The concept that people have always cheated and always will, so we must learn from it and grow from it. This suggests that it is an inevitable part of life and frames it in a very positive way. As I mentioned before, I feel this narrative is a further step towards social acceptance which I strongly oppose.
The fact is that we've done a lot of things for millenia. Humans have fought wars, stolen from each other, murdered each other, raped each other, enslaved each other...and people that are victims of those wrong doings have grown from those experiences as well at times. Look at Victor Frankl's "Man Search For Meaning", he learned a lot in a concentration camp. But to take that a step further and say that these acts are part of human nature, unavoidable and unpreventable, so we should relax about it and harness the positives and learn from them?
No. The correct answer is that these actions are NOT OK. Under any circumstance. Regardless of how gracefully the betrayed party grows from the experience. And the correct answer is that while we'll never achieve the goal of eliminating these behaviors from our species, we can work together to minimize them by spreading the word that they are NOT acceptable, for any reason, regardless of the outcome. And that each of us gets to cast their vote by our personal behavior...whether we remain faithful, whether we challenge our friends when we hear of them walking down that path, whether we pass this message...or whether we cheat, rationalize, minimize, and validate these choices.
You know my vote.
***Long post*** OK. I will write up why I think I bring a lot to a relationship, why I fear it would never be enough, and why I am frustrated with my desires and imperfections. First of all, remember that it’s very hard to find words for these things. I wrote this out in 20 minutes in one draft, if I contradict myself later (or even in this rant) understand it was a stream of consciousness, it’s not so easy to define one’s self.
I am sorry if this comes across as conceited. Remember…the underlying feelings can all be summed up with “I’m incredibly awesome in so many ways, but ultimately broken and not worth the bother”. Like a luxury German import which looks awesome and would be the dream car, but the electrical system doesn’t work and service costs would be prohibitive, so we’ll take the Chevy. I realize that when I wrote why a woman wouldn’t want me I was still defensive and trying to explain myself, but it’s hard to write about this stuff people, so please be patient. OK, jumping in now, maybe I’ll write a recap at the bottom.
Why I’m an awesome catch:
I believe life is too precious not to share love, and I have a lot of love to give. I am extremely sensitive to others feelings and my own, yet as strong as anyone I’ve met. Tolerant of other’s faults because I know I have my own. Loyal to the death, and would never leave, cheat, or betray. I believe in being with one woman only in my life, and while I have had two women in my life now, I intended to be lifelong partners with each of them and would’ve been had they not left. I am willing to compromise and flex in what I get out of my life to make the life my partner wants possible as well. To put my partner ahead of all else except for God, even my children, as I believe marriage comes first and that is the best example and foundation from which to lead a family. I have a great sense of humor and am extremely passionate. People tell me I am inspirational. I am intelligent and gifted, and am a leader and a champion at what I take on. I have an unparalleled work ethic and strive to give my best at all I do every day. As a result I earn a good income and will always be able to provide for my family, including my partner. I am lavish with my affection, from words of love, to back rubs, to cuddling, to romantic gestures and outings. I am a world class competitor, and if my partner enjoys rooting for her man she will get to see me take on and achieve many unbelievable accomplishments. I am a good family man, I bring out great things in my children, inspire them to new heights, draw out their sense of adventure, and give them grounded attitudes and outlooks to deal with the challenges life brings. I don’t smoke, drink, do drugs, gamble, and I have steered away from porn. I go to church on Sundays and talk about those lessons with my kids. I am old fashioned in that I like time without the interruptions of texting and phone calls, and avoid social media, so my company will be devoted. I would be happy learning about my partner, who she is, how she feels, what she wants, likes and needs, and doing my best to learn how to provide it to her every day I draw breath, all while celebrating the joy of being together. Yet I would also understand that marriage has seasons, and that there will be times when we grow different directions, and then I would stand by and grow with the times, let go of what is gone, and learn to love the new relationship that we can develop. I have the faith to trust God to reward our compassion and love for each other with what we need, even if it doesn’t always look like what we want. All I know for sure is that she would always be in my heart and mind as I moved through my life, trying to live in a way worthy of the one that I was blessed to have as a companion, and showing her my appreciation the best I could.
Why a healthy woman wouldn’t want me:
I can get angry. While I never hit or shout insults, and rarely lose my temper, I do blow up once or twice a year. I get very intense and my fury is scary. A healthy woman would think this is abuse and not want to put up with me.
My sexual desires are raging. It’s like my body thinks I am here to impregnate every female on the planet, and reminds me of that perpetually throughout the day until I am overwhelmed by lust. Don’t mistake desire with want. That’s not what I want. What I want is a woman that can try to grasp the depths of my desires and appreciate that I would deny acting on any of them because I only want to be satisfied by the one I love, if in turn she’d show me her love by fanning those flames when it was just her and me, being willing to give herself to me completely and longing to satisfy me. She would want to learn my fantasies and playfully partake in many of them over the years to keep our sex lives vibrant and fulfilling. I’d of course love to reciprocate! And she would understand this is a core need of mine, to be met consistently through the years even when she didn’t always desire it herself, or when life was busy, or I wasn’t living up to all of her expectations. A healthy woman would be appalled by my desires, view those needs as perversions, show disinterest in my desires and unilaterally define how our sex life would look, dismiss the notion that sex is a need or that she should ever feel obligated to give herself to me unless she wanted to, because it is her body and her rights, sex should be when both partners want it, and she doesn’t have those feelings right now, particularly for some guy with disgusting fantasies and creepy hungers.
I have a personality disorder. I am not normal. My passion, intensity, drive towards perfection, longing for meaningful connection, all great…but obviously something is different. I am introverted, completely disinterested in the things that many people do such as watching sports, drinking beers after work at a happy hour, etc. I have racing thoughts, expansive thinking, am extremely sensitive and feel things very strongly, can be tiring to be around because I am so intense, am very longwinded at times, and have extreme views on many things. A healthy woman would find this exhausting and exasperating, and would just want a ‘normal’ person that isn’t so over the top about everything. She would have a line-up of diagnosis for my mental conditions and decide that she doesn’t need those problems in her life.
All in all, she’d simply decide that I was way more trouble than I was worth, that she doesn’t need to deal with my intensity, anger, extremes, desires, that I’m hard to live with, that her kids will always come first and I’ll never be more than a 3rd wheel which can be punted if I can’t fit the box she thinks I should stay in.
Conclusion: So today I saw a beautiful woman at the store I was in. I was breathtaken for a few moments. She wasn’t beautiful like “TV model”, just sincere and natural. But she struck me as a person that had things going for her. Circumstances dictated that we had a short interaction. I found myself thinking about whether she’d be interested in someone like me. Immediately I rejected the idea. I just couldn’t picture her wanting to put up with my BS, or live in an ‘old fashioned’ relationship in which she stayed loyal to a man with so many problems and demands, not when today it’s about being free and unencumbered to find your own happiness. So I wrote her off as out of my league, along with pretty much everyone else, because I’ll probably either stay single for the count or find some woman that has more baggage than I do and that would maybe put up with me. (Note- I wouldn’t be ready to date for a long time anyway, this was just me thinking about it)
The funny thing is that finding woman that had baggage didn’t work for me. STBX pretty much rejected me in every which way I described above and more. It occurs to me that a healthy woman actually has a BETTER chance of being prepared to collaborate and find ways to make a healthy relationship. While a broken CD woman might need an M more, she’d be less likely to make one work. So healthy must be what I’m looking for. And as I typed this out I realize I do have a lot to offer, and my problems don’t look so insurmountable.
But feelings are a mother. So this is where I am at.
The good news is I’ve got the gift of time, and the gift of some experience. I’ll keep taking steps and see where my path takes me.
Zues, where did you develop your opinions of what a "healthy woman" would want? For instance, a "healthy" woman would find listening to you exhausting. Where did you get that idea? It seems to me you have a very narrow definition of a healthy woman. Nothing you said about yourself disturbs me in the least. But how you view women kind of does..... Help me out here, Zues.
Thanks for the reply sunny. You're the one that challenged me to go further down this road. I'm glad I did. It's all mixed up.
I am pretty tired, writing this took a lot out of me. I guess I have just always assumed that a woman wouldn't want to put up with this. I use 'healthy' to mean a woman that doesn't have serious lifestyle issues that would cause her to devalue herself and willingly accept a mess of a partner. For example drugs abuser, perpetually unemployed, basically someone that needed someone because anyone that had the power to choose to stay or go wouldn't stay with me. I have felt threatened by the women's movement and the shift to equality not because I don't believe in it, but because it feels like there's no reason a woman would want to be with me if she didn't have to.
The rejections in all the things I described above is how STBX reacted to me. I always thought she was healthy during our R, I thought she was the good one and I was the messed up one. I'm not going to do a complete role reversal on that, but I realize that she wasn't the person I made her out to be...I'll just leave it at that. So now I don't know anymore.
I'm confused when you say how I view women kind of disturbs you. I guess I'm not sure what you were referring to. You mention my 'narrow view' of healthy women I guess. Remember, I wasn't saying by definition a healthy woman feels all those things. I just meant healthy to mean somewhat in control of her life. All of those feelings/judgments/reactions were just what I projected on to her, how I'm afraid she'll react to finding out who I am. Does that make sense?
Writing this on paper it doesn't look as bad as how it feels to me. I guess that's the way it goes. But it's good to talk about it.
I don't know if that makes more sense. Feel free to ask follow ups. Thanks for your patience.
I'm confused when you say how I view women kind of disturbs you. I guess I'm not sure what you were referring to. You mention my 'narrow view' of healthy women I guess .
Yes. Let me give you an example. My H and used to go out socially with a couple I'll call Ed and Carla. Ed likes to tell stories about himself and after having known him a while I had heard those stories several times. On about the third telling my eyes glazed over and I preferred to amuse myself by watching H squirm while I ran my hand up his thigh under the table. Carla, however, hung on his every word. She must have heard those stories dozens of times and seem just as enraptured the 24th as the 1st. So.....I thought you were saying that Carla was not healthy because she would listen to Ed. Or that maybe I was unhealthy because I'd rather sneak off to the bathroom. That both of us couldn't meet the definition. It just seemed that you had a preconceived notion of healthy and it seemed pretty specific. But.....after your post this morning I see it in a different way.
I'll check back in later.
Thanks Sunny. It's hard, I've been wrestling with these cycles, doubts, and feelings for years...so it's tough to sum it up in a few paragraphs. I appreciate you being able to talk it through and not jump to conclusions. I wrote a little more, some of it I've said before. Just need to keep working on it. Warning- this next rant is not well organized!
***RANT BEGIN***
I guess the overall pattern is the underlying sense that something's wrong with me. That no one normal would accept me. Then if I look to someone else to prove that wrong it doesn't work. That's a little of the dynamic in my failed M. I would feel insufficient, and feel something was wrong with me. My desires probably were just the representation of those feelings, and so I resented them, if only I didn't have those feelings I could be the person I was supposed to be! Then I'd try hard to be the best person I could be, and I'd grow frustrated that it was never good enough (even though it was my own voice rejecting myself).
Then I'd get angry, and be upset that I should be judged critically. I'd defend myself and my desires and say things like "this is just how I am", or "this is just how I'm wired". The problem is that I'd expect my W to 'approve' of me to make up for my lack of approval in myself, and the way she could prove she accepted me was to satsify my sexual desires. Since I didn't feel ok myself she never could, and this in turn led her to feel insufficient, incapable of being good enough to make me happy (yes, we were both very CD), and she would punish me by withdrawing because it was never enough for me. Then I'd be frustrated that I was being misunderstood, judged, or rejected for my needs. It was times like this I'd use porn, both as a release, and as a validation that "somewhere someone else must feel like I do or they wouldn't make stuff like this". But then I'd see my dysfunctional M and hated it, and would go back to thinking there was something wrong with me and if only I didn't have that type of desire things would be better.
Hundreds of times a day I'd be turned on in some way or shape, and each time I'd resent the trap I was in. I never really understood that it was me being critical of myself that was at the center. And if I did suspect that, I tried to deny it because I didn't know how I could change it, easier to try to solve a sex life problem.
Add in one more confession- I am so hard on myself, so critical, so demanding...I push harder than anyone I've met...but unfortunately I occasionally allow that to spill onto those I'm closest with. Never coworkers, rarely kids or friends, but I did let this pour onto my W at times. I'd treat her the way I'd treat myself, which was with disdain because it wasn't good enough. I see now that this is a poison in an M and regret ever hurting her. I always saw it as a positive, because this was the energy I channeled to become great. I wanted a great M, and somehow thought if only she pushed herself harder and got herself together and put some effort into being a better wife and person we could have a better M, but now I see that we are all different people, and it's not up to me to approve or disapprove of her life, it's up to me to love my partner and appreciate who they are.
***RANT OVER***
So I realize there is no woman that can satisfy me sexually if that means she needs to perpetually prove to me she is ok with my sexual desires and with me altogether. Only I can do that, and if I expect her to it's an impossible task that she is destined to fail at, and one that I'd no doubt be critical about, and could point at her for...'if only she'd be more sexually satisfying'...It's clear that my fears of being rejected by woman ARE based in reality, if by rejection I mean their inability to make me whole when I don't feel I am.
I am working hard on this. In my head I get it all. And I know that the hardest part of this is that I won't get to a point when I feel completely whole...as long as I think that's possible I feel like more of a failure, which is taking me backwards. But when I remind myself we're all broken humans, and that it's not about becoming perfect, it's about being ok with being flawed and not expecting anyone else to fix my lack of self-approval. So little by little I'm getting to the point where I'm screwed up a bit, but learning that's ok.
How I get to the point I can have a good R without these same patterns playing out, I don't know. I am trying to work on it by being a better dad, not being critical of my kids for being who they are, etc. I continue to avoid pornography because that can't help but give strength to my insecurities and contaminate my natural desires. And more and more I accept the person who I am. I feel proud of myself for what I'm doing. I guess I just don't know if I'll pass the test of being able to be in a good M someday. I am glad I have more time.
Hi Zues, I can't remember if I have posted this to you before, but have you read any stuff by Brene Brown. She is insightful on the whole area of shame, and I wonder if you might find her books & TED talks helpful? I found them useful.
In terms of high drive, if we plotted humans on a spectrum of sexual drive, they would be all along - a continuum. I don't think there is any right and wrong in that - it just is. I think the important thing is honestly sharing with someone your innermost desires and respecting that they also have needs and preferences - and finding happiness and satisfaction within all of that. It's a complex picture, and as I have now learned....relationships aren't easy!!
I don't think the drive is problematic at all - I think it's all about what you do with it...
JMHO xx
And as I typed this out I realize I do have a lot to offer, and my problems don’t look so insurmountable.
Oh, I agree!
Thank you Toots, Sandi. The compassion on this board has been a powerful support for me. Toots, I'll check out the Ted Talks for sure. I've been working out almost every day and have been gobbling up these talks. Brene is on deck.
To keep things balanced with some casual updates, I will share some happy times with my kids.
The first is very funny because it is such a great representation of my personality, it is so "me", I have to share. With my daughter I have been playing "guess who", the guessing game where you use the process of elimination to identify which character card your opponent has. If you don't know the game this won't make sense. Anyway, it's a pretty luck based guessing game...OR IS IT?!? I found ways to add a few layers. First, when I saw my daughter had eliminated all options but one I knew she'd win on her next turn, so I took a guess and risked the game even though I wasn't sure who her character was, I was down to 3 but I figured a 1/3 chance was better than none. I got it right and won. My D asked why I guessed, I explained it, she got it. So then she did the same thing to me a few games later. Later we began leaving cards up that we knew were eliminated to throw our opponent off of how close we were to the finish line...it would look like I was down to 4, but then I'd guess on the next turn because I was really down to 1 but hadn't flipped them down yet.
Then I kicked it up a notch- when I could tell she had an insurmountable lead I started knocking down all types of choices until I only had one left, even though I had no clue who her character was. Basically I bluffed her, bet the game that by getting down to one card I would force her to take a wild guess and hopefully lose, since I'd never win the traditional way. After she lost I showed her what I did and she thought it was funny. Now we have these super meta-game battles of guess who wherein we're bluffing each other, sometimes to the point that when I try to get her to risk the game on a guess I go to 'level 2', knock down all but 3 cards, but make it look like I was really down to 1 and trying to disguise that by leaving 3 standing, to try to provoke an out of turn guess...
The point is my love of games, competition, strategy, etc...it took a very boring game and made it very interesting, and my little girl has mastered all of the strategies and is learning what it means to take competition to another level. I pity the 3rd grader that tries playing guess who with her next year!
As for my son...he's had a tough time. I won't go into it more than that for now, other than to say he talked about killing himself last week. He IS getting counseling help, but I don't delegate that to ANYONE. So I spent some 1:1 time with him and he opened up, cried, told me how much he hates that his old life has been destroyed, and just held me for a while sobbing.
So today I got him a special notebook and pen, and told him that it was my job to make sure he had some tools to help him as he became a man. Of course I try to teach him lessons, but I wanted to have him start writing down a theme with some notes that would remind him of what we talked about. I wanted to start with some affirmation on why I was doing this. I explained lesson one- no one's perfect, we all have problems...being strong doesn't mean not having problems, it means learning to manage the problems we have.
We had a good conversation, he took some notes, and we found a secret hiding spot for his notebook. I will spend 15-20 minutes with him each visit and keep working with him, I have a few things I want to share with him, but will do it little by little, and make sure to do plenty of review, and get him talking about his interpretations and applications.
I have a good feel for who he is, what he's dealing with, and where he's struggling. I hope what I am going to work with him on helps. If nothing else it will show that I hear his pain, love him, and am in his corner.
So, some fun and games, some nitty gritty. But I love my kids and am excited to spend time with them. Heading to an art exhibit a friend invited my family to, then to the movies. Have fun and know that I love you my DB family!
And as I typed this out I realize I do have a lot to offer, and my problems don’t look so insurmountable.
Oh, I agree!
This.
Hi Zeus,
Your posts made for interesting reading and I can understand where you are coming from with a lot of it.
What struck me (and I may be way off) is that its almost like its your competitive side is influencing your expectations - like having someone desire you in the same way you desire them is the prize and that anything short of that means in someway you've lost and which translates as not being enough as you are.
Just using your guess who example, your reaction to losing was to work out a new strategy to improve your odds of winning. I'm curious how do you get on with games that are pure chance and where there is no opponent to game?
from there its about how do you change your narrative, I'm not saying you have to change who you are but more appreciate what is good (a bit like learning some different love languages)
Hopefully i've not said anything you feel is out of turn but it was the theme that stood out for me when i read your posts
Not at all Jim. You are right on with some of this.
I'll start by saying that I am way outside the norm on the bell curve. Neither good nor bad, but it definitely is. If I walked into a room with 1,000 people and we took on a new endeavor, be it a game, a challenge, anything...I'd probably be the best. It would be easy to assume that I am bragging, that I'm very competitive to make up for an insecurity. I promise you it's not that one dimensional. As for bragging, Jim, I also promise you that if I didn't think it would be an insult to God having given me these gifts I would opt to have chosen to be someone else. There is nothing easy about the hand I've been dealt.
Upon meeting me strangers describe me as inspirational and intense. I have been told to write books or become a motivational speaker countless times. I have absolutely dominated at the things I have taken on which is why I was drawn to sales...and in 15 years of sales the people that represented the toughest competition I've ever had have unanimously agreed I was the best they've ever seen.
So why am I saying all of this? I'm agreeing that it makes for problems. The fire that burns within me is white hot, hot enough that when I have a flaw in my game I will exert will to iron it out until it has been eliminated and perfected.
Is it easy to live with someone like that? Absolutely not.
I tried Jim. I tried throughout my M to not hold my W to my standards. My standards are impossible to achieve, and while to me that was ok because the point wasn't to achieve them but to die trying and become the best I could be...I know that for others that's not how they want to live.
But I know I fell short. I know STBX felt like I was disdainful of her, impatient, frustrated, angry, or exasperated. Not all the time, but definitely at times.
Why would I treat her this way? You're right in that I felt we were here to make a good partnership. I put a lot into what I do and felt frustrated that she didn't seem to care. The best I can describe it is I felt I was playing on a team, I was trying my hardest to win, my partner was goofing around and giving 50%. That triggered a lot of intense emotions in me.
Believe it or not I tried hard to just live and let live. I realized that I was rather eccentric, and I actually APPRECIATED that my STBX was closer to 'normal' on the spectrum. But I definitely know her complaint was that it was too exhausting to be with me, that she never felt good enough, that she just wanted to be with someone where she could be herself and have fun. I have posted before that my desire for a perfect M ruined the chances for a decent M. The only thing I can say in my defense is that I NEVER would have walked away from STBX. That I believed that given time we would work through these things. I guess I truly don't believe in giving up, and that an M is priceless and irreplaceable.
This is hard for me Jim, and one of the reasons I have struggled with my sense of self worth. I mean, there's a fine line between genius and insanity, and I have walked it. People love to watch professional athletes on TV, they love reading about Thomas Eddison's determination, or other inspirational figures, and we often use them as examples. But who the heck would want to live with me? This is what I wonder when I feel worthless.
But then I think about how some woman root their man on, support their man, think that he's something special...not just for his accomplishments, but in addition to them. I do think that STBX had a lot of insecurities on her own, serious anxiety issues, and that we BOTH formed a poor dynamic that was codependant and ineffective.
I HAVE domesticated myself tremendously. I am now able to play games of chance and laugh when my kids win. I don't obsessively practice pool. Not every book I read is an inspirational biography or sports psychology. I am learning to live more than I used to. And while I can't in one post explain where this fire came from, I will tell you that I've been learning a lot about it, growing, healing, and learning to accept myself as is more and more. All while still enjoying my gifts and expressing them in the world.
So I've come a long way. And while I understand that I'm not easy to be with, I am starting to believe that maybe I'm not cursed to be different. Maybe as I continue to grow and mellow a bit, accept the differences between me and my partner, and- as you said- be more appreciative of the good of the relationship as it is...I think I can do my part to be a decent partner.
Hello Zues,
I wanted to stop by and say 'Hello!' Yes, you have come a long way. Keep up the great work, move forward and never look back.
Way to go!
Bob
Hello Zues,
I wanted to stop by and say 'Hello!' Yes, you have come a long way. Keep up the great work, move forward and never look back.
Way to go!
Bob
Thank you Bob. Great to have you on this forum, you were only gone for a few days but it felt like longer. You bring so much!
((Zues)) I am hearing the pain in your words. I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better today.
After sharing your feelings, I will honestly say that I don't believe you should seek reconciliation at this time. Sometimes just too much damage has occurred. I believe people are often pushed to do what someone dictates as "the right thing". Well, it sounds as if you were doing the right thing and still received terrible treatment. Perhaps you struggle even now about doing what is perceived to be right. It is for nobody to decide what Zues should except you. I blame nobody for not wanting to step back into a relationship with a person who did what your W has done to you.
I think you agree, and that what you're saying is that you'd need proof they had DRAMATICALLY changed into a different person that regretted those decisions, a person that had been so impacted and had grown so far they might as well be a stranger to your old partner, but a stranger with kids and history you share. And that you are CAUTIONING LBH's for accepting any less.
Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. However, how dramatically they change can certainly vary from person to person. Your W would be one who would need a total make over inside and out, and it would need to be authentic. I have not read many accounts where that actually occurs. Doesn't mean it's impossible. I think there has to be a driving force behind anyone's dramatic change. We tell LBH'S to change for themselves, not to just get her back. Same thing applies to the WW. Anyone can put on a good front for a while. Eventually the real person will show.
I think it would probably take a few years for her to change as much as she would need, in order to be the W you deserve to have. I'm no professional, so it's JMO. I do believe with complete repentance comes healing and opportunity to live a better life. That is her choice, and it's
your choice if she lives with you, or not.
Oh btw, whenever I say the woman has to respect a man in order to be in love with him, it doesn't mean he is a bum or necessarily did something wrong in the M. Some women lose respect for themselves and everyone. In such a case, you would have to ask yourself if
she was worth it.
Sandi, wanted to reply on my own thread for this one. For the first time since BD I feel like the door to R has been closed.
I'm not trying to control the future. If STBX goes through years of transformation and I am still single, who knows what is possible. But I am no longer hoping she turns around on this one. And if she were to ask if I'd be open to working through things I'd be perfectly content to tell her no without the need to explain further. If she really wanted to know I'd let her know- as a gift to her- that I am not interested in a relationship with someone that has such disrespect for me, herself, her commitment, or to her M.
This is a big breakthrough for me. It seemed like for 6 months I was hoping for R, then I was open to it. Now I realize that I am worth enough not to accept anything less than a solid M. As I've said before, not only will a better M be better, it will hold up better to the temptations of the world as well.
For the first time I am feeling like I can be a good H. Feedback from you, Sunny, Toots, Gan, Py, and so many other posters has given me the courage to fight back against my self doubts. They are still there, but they don't get to control my life. Yes, I have continued work to do. Yes, I won't be an easy person to partner with all the time as I am pretty extreme. But the more I read my old posts and reflect on my old M, the more I realize I've come a long ways and I'm confident that I won't behave the same in my next M.
Because I'll definitely own the fact that I treated my W very poorly and was far too demanding. I've just learned that me being flawed doesn't mean I deserve to be mistreated, or that I can't do better than to cling to someone that doesn't value me and is unable to provide a good partnership built in character, commitment, for better for worse, through sickness and health, til death do us part.
That doesn't mean I'm guaranteed to have a better M in the future, or that my next partner doesn't leave, or do the same things, or that we don't have an equally broken M. I will fall short in many ways as a broken human, and I can't control her. But I'll do my best, and it will be better...and I'll also do my best to find a partner that shares these beliefs, and that is willing to grow and change through tough times rather than walk.
Thank you guys. I wouldn't go back in time a year for anything. And I can't wait to see how much more change is possible in another year or five. When you're doing the work time truly is a gift.
I also think I lowered my standards to combat my high standards.
Like I said, my standards are incredibly high...I didn't want to 'inflict' them on other people, or my W, because I knew I was so demanding...so in some ways it's like I put up with everything because I didn't want to be the guy that was so entitled I felt like I deserved better.
I wanted a better M. I wanted a more engaged partner. I wanted a better sex life. I wanted someone that respected and prioritized me. I wanted someone that put me first, valued my opinions, and recognized how amazing I am. That supported me. That allowed me to lead my family.
But it's like the critical voice inside of me was so loud, I kept drowning it out. I said "no, that's just you being demanding, being a perfectionist". I thought that the way I'd 'win' against my own drive was to just put up with anything and everything. I didn't want to bulldoze my W. As a result, I didn't gain from the positive contributions that voice had to offer.
Vanilla just posted a great thread about taking the good from that voice, I'll have to reread that...the 7 step process. Point is that while I don't want to be critical or demanding, I can still have standards, and I am learning that the trick is to listen to and control that voice, not to do the opposite!
Zeus, just want you to know I'm here and have read all your posts. I have started replies a couple of times and let them go for various reasons. But I like the track you are on, you do seem to be going through another shift recently. A shift to a place of peace and power and self acceptance. It's a nice place to be Zues. Welcome.
Zues
I do read your thread and many of your posts.
There are a few thoughts I have but mainly Zeus (deliberate) it is ok to be Zues. There is absolutely no reason why Zues can not be who he is.
We are flawed as humans we are all, every single one of us flawed, but we are also as good as we can be when we tap into our higher power.
You are more than your sin, and there are seven of them, yours was carnal and consuming. OK, I get it, you sinned for a long time, you had a black heart, my gosh perhaps in your own eyes the worst ever. And you paused, you reviewed, you evaluated and you atoned.
So are you committing yourself to hell forever, condemned to burn? That isn't humility or your higher power. How self indulgent to believe that your higher power thinks you worthy of such righteous humiliation and flagellation. How dare you when there is so much to be done! How can you condemn Zues, in what way does that relieve you of your responsibility for love.
No one will love me when they kow me? Excuse me. Well I contradict you, there are many here including V who love you for who you are, right here, right now. How dare you not love yourself. How dare you write yourself off. My sweetheart sexual predilications aren't the only thing defining you, they may absorb you, keep you wanting to be an addict and you manage that. That is all we ask, in the same way Joe or PP manage their addictions, we accept that they do.
You may always seek to manage that aspect, just as I manage my diabetes, others manage their draw to alcohol. But should that draw, that addiction always define you, are you not who you are because of it? Is it not a part, shall I call it "siren" that part?
I am far from saying the past is ok, have you atoned it, if not what is it you need to do?
Zues, flawed of name, that is being human, and is your challenge not your protection. It's going to be ok.
V
Zues, buddy!! You sound good, strong and positive! Man we have come a long ways! Good for you! I feel the same as you do. I am not interested in reconciliation. I, like you and everyone else has flaws. We all do. We can now work on some of these. We can learn from the mistakes we made. I did not think it was a gift before, but we have been given the gift of time. I am grateful for it. Someone someday is going to be lucky to have guys like us! We deserve it!! Keep up the positive changes!
Sunny, Vanilla, Joe...thank you all. I've been mulling over what you told me and just marinating for a bit.
I do want to share the article I just got emailed from MWD. If you haven't read it I really recommend it. It speaks to how to be more selective and proactive at the onset of a relationship to ensure a better marriage:
From Michele at the Divorce Busting® Center
The Divorce Busting® Center
The Truth About Lasting Marriage
8/5/15
Hi,
If you want to make sure marriage lasts- an who doesn't?- there is one thing you need to ask a prospective mate. but what is that?
Does knowing one's fiancée's values, goals and aspirations increase the odds a couple will live happily ever after?" That's what reporters often want to know when interviewing me about the questions people should ask before tying the knot.
As someone who for several decades has specialized in working with couples teetering on the brink of divorce, I must admit I have a few opinions about this.
First of all, I'm convinced that far too many couples tie the knot when they are still in the infatuation stage of their relationship, a time when hormones run amok and lust looms large.
They don't do their homework up front; they fail to really get to know how their partners feel about the inevitable life-altering decisions.
It amazes me how much faith people have that healthy, happy marriages just happen. They don't.
So, on one hand, I'm glad people are giving some thought to interviewing their prospective mates about their life's goals, ambitions and aspirations. It may go a long way to weed out blatant mismatches.
(Although the cynical side of me wonders whether incompatible responses to important questions would bring wedding plans to a screeching halt or simply become debris that gets swept under the carpet to be dealt with post nup.)
Nonetheless, approaching marriage consciously and intentionally is always a good thing.
However, I'm equally convinced that knowing your prospective mate's thoughts about a variety of relationship issues does not provide future "love insurance". Here's why.
The late John Lennon once said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making plans."
No matter how much a couple agrees on whether they want children and if so, how many, how they'll handle finances and household chores, how they'll decide on religious issues or matters of sexuality, and so on and so on, the truth is, how people feel often changes over time.
For example, I recently worked with a young Mormon couple who totally agreed prior to marriage that they would be an active part of the LDS church.
The wife had converted because she was committed to the idea from the outset. However, as time passed, there was much about the religion with which she didn't feel comfortable.
Because she had agreed to convert, she felt guilty about her discomfort and failed to share it with her husband. Over time, her feelings of resentment grew and when she felt she could no longer stand the pressure, she filed for divorce.
Plus, regardless of how crystal clear you might be about your goals and direction for your marriage, life often has a funny way of throwing you curves. Then what?
I have worked with many couples over the years who have agreed in advance that they want children. They even agreed on the number of children they desired as well as the date they wanted to become pregnant.
However, eventually these couples learned sad news they hadn't even considered- they were unable to conceive. Months and years of frustration, hurt, disappointment and mutual blaming frequently took a toll on their marriages.
Tragically, many ended up divorced. They talked about having kids; they simply failed to talk about what happens if nature doesn't cooperate.
Similarly, I work with couples day in and day out who are very passionate during the early stages of their marriage. They even discuss the importance of maintaining passion and physical affection in their relationship over time.
But alas, kids happen. Busy jobs happen. Resentment happens. Bickering takes the place of watching movies together in the evening. Sex stops happening.
All of a sudden, the plans to keep sex juicy now seem like nothing more than a faded memory. And they're both too tired to do anything about it. Who knew?
So, is marriage nothing more than a crapshoot?
Does it pay to know anything about your mate-to-be at all?
Good question.
Here's the good news. Marriage isn't a crap shoot at all. In fact, we now know a great deal about what it takes to make marriages last and help people grow old together happily.
Sure, you should ask the big questions up front and steer clear of people whose basic values and goals clash with yours. That's Relationship 101.
But don't let those little check marks next to your compatible responses give you a false sense of security. Go the extra mile. Here's what you really need to know about your partner given the uncertainty of life's meandering path.
Regardless of your level of compatibility, conflict in marriage is inevitable. One of the most important things you need to know is whether your partner can stand the heat.
Will s/he be willing to get help when the going gets tough?
Is s/he willing to take a marriage education class to learn the necessary skills to get and keep your marriage on track or back on track?
Would s/he be willing to go to a qualified marriage counselor or speak to your pastor or rabbi?
And if you're going to talk, talk about the taboo, x-rated subjects.
Discuss infidelity, infertility, aging parents, job layoffs, unexpected illnesses or deaths. Talk about the hard stuff.
Does your partner know that over two thirds of what couples argue about in marriage is unresolvable?
Does s/he know the predictable transitional stages that ALL marriages go through regardless of how much couples love each other?
Does your mate know that while marriage is still one of the greatest institutions on earth, it's not for the faint of heart? In fact, it's damn hard work.
And since it only takes one person to end a marriage, you might want to ask your partner, "Under what circumstances would you feel that our marriage would be over?"
I know this question isn't pretty or romantic, far from it, but since most divorces are unilateral decisions, it might help to know what might prompt your spouse to call it quits.
It could be a deal breaker.
So, here's the bottom line from the Divorce Buster. Don't place too much weight on those compatibility quizzes.
Be more impressed with your partner's level of commitment.
With the right attitude and adequate set of relationship skills, even the quirkiest of personality differences or opposing life goals can be worked through.
Know your prospective partner's willingness to stay the course even when love isn't easy.
Warmly,
Michele
Still sorting through some things, but wanted to share two quotes from a fiction book I was rereading.
The first quote honors the depth of the loss we've incurred. People that talk about how their M was bad and they wouldn't want to return to it because WAS did this or that, they are missing the point. It's not about having a "TedTalk" worthy M. It's about sticking it out even regardless.
"No, not love. I'm talking about the cycle of life. I'm talking about finding some alien creature and deciding to marry her and stay with her forever, no matter whether you even like each other or not a few years down the road. And why will you do this? So you can make babies together, and try to keep them alive and teach them so that someday they'll have babies, and keep the whole thing going. And you'll never draw a secure breath until they have grandchildren, a double handful of them, because then you know that your line won't die out, your influence will continue. Selfish, isn't it? Only it isn't selfish, it's what life is for. It's the only thing that brings happiness, ever, to anyone. All the other things- victories, achievements, honors, causes- they bring you only momentary flashes of pleasure. But binding yourself to another person and the children you make together, that's life."
The second quote touched on something that woke me up to how seductive affairs and entitlement are, our desires.
"She remembered the story from her childhood, about Adam and Even in the garden, and the talking snake. Even as a little girl she had said- to the consternation of her family- What kind of idiot was Eve, to believe a snake? But now she understood, for she had heard the voice of the snake, and watched as a wise and powerful man had fallen under it's spell:
Eat the fruit and you can have all the desires of your heart. It's not evil, it's noble and good. You'll be praised for it...and it's delicious."
Hi Zues, I'm Mutatio. I've lurked 6 months and now are here. You have been my hero for the 6 months, so wise. I'd love your advice on my situation if you ever are suffering from insomnia.
It seem to me that the only way we can grow in respect to our demons is self loving and compassion. Your discussion may be at a higher level than this and I am sorry if I have missed the target. I am not the sharpest pencil in the cup.
Loved the Adam and Eve quote, it has struct a cord with me. Thank for all sharing your thought these last months, it has helped me and your one reason I am here and not lurking. You make a difference in my life. Wow, this sounds sappy
Thank you Mutatio. I've read your sitch. I'll post when inspiration hits me. For now just know that I'm following you.
You know, I read something from photoka about doing what's right for children over husbands. I'm not sure what she really meant by that, but what it reminded me was something I've said to challenge people that justify D. People build cases on why they walk out on marriages citing that "they aren't happy, they haven't been their true selves, they are repressed, this isn't the life they want to live", etc, and their friends all give them their blessing to get a D.
My challenge is this: Replace the word "spouse" with "handicapped 10 year old". What if the spouse wanted to put their 10 year old son up for adoption because they felt repressed, felt that they were losing themselves, etc...people would be APPALLED! So WHY THE *($&% IS A SPOUSE ANY LESS IMPORTANT? DON'T THEY BECOME FAMILY WHEN YOU JOIN AND HAVE CHILDREN WITH YOU? Save me the stuff about how kids can't take care of themselves, I think it's garbage. Kids would live in a foster care too, it's their emotional wellbeing that would be shattered, just like the thousands on this board and the tens of millions across our nation. D is wrong.
And one other thing...all this LBS stuff about how we wouldn't want our old M back...tonight I'm feeling that's more garbage. Read my quote above about what happiness really is. It's about service. It's about sticking it out.
This country was founded on personal freedom and the right to pursue happiness...but over the last 50 years we've taken that WAY to far. We put personal freedom and individual happiness over everything. The entitlement is shocking to me. The idea that we deserve to be happy and that comes from pursuing our desires...BS.
Happiness comes from being the person God wants you to be. The spouse. The father. The mother. The employee. The member of the congregation. Etc. Sorry if it's not titillating. Guess what? The things that are exciting and bring rushes of pleasure don't bring happiness. And while a bad M may not bring romance, hot sex, and emotional bonding all the time it can still bring a sense of purpose, deep connection, and a unity that is deeper than just an exciting date night.
Despite this rant I am mostly at peace with the fact that the majority of the world doesn't feel this way. I'm not going to deny that. I'm not going to get upset about that. I'm not going to crusade to change that.
But I AM going to raise my kids and tell them my beliefs. I AM going to follow this path myself, and do what I can to influence those close to me. And I am going to do what I can to make this a requisite of anyone that wants to be close to me in the future.
Mic drop.
Great article. Another one of those things you want to post on FB both to help your friends, but (and yes I still entertain this fantasy) also to fire a big fat truth dart at your H or W.
I never thought there would be any circumstance other than sustained abuse or addiction that would lead my W to unilaterally seek to end our M. I know I would never have done it short of that. The problem is, I'd bet real money she would have said nothing. Even those values can change in time. Still, that they can change doesn't mean that where they are right now will be where they remain, but I really do wish I could go back and ask that question (h*ll I wish I could ask that questions about what do you think you would have answered if I had asked back then?).
Thanks for the article Zeus.
Happiness comes from being the person God wants you to be. The spouse. The father. The mother. The employee. The member of the congregation. Etc. Sorry if it's not titillating. Guess what? The things that are exciting and bring rushes of pleasure don't bring happiness. And while a bad M may not bring romance, hot sex, and emotional bonding all the time it can still bring a sense of purpose, deep connection, and a unity that is deeper than just an exciting date night.
Amen Zues!! Very well said!!!
That leads me to my next point. I know I still have a lot of rage inside of me. It's subtle, because it's MUCH lower than it used to be, and my coping mechanisms have gotten stronger, so I can overlook it...but it's their. I listened to a TED talk today by a woman that was 3 times divorced talking about what she learned and I found myself FURIOUS! She admitted she regretted leaving her first two husbands, but then talked about the growth and what she's learned, etc. It was the one on "The person you should marry" talking about how you had to marry yourself, care for yourself, etc. It was all fine, but I was pissed at this idea that we can cause SO MUCH DESTRUCTION and then just be 'reborn' and talk about how much we've learned and put inspirational messages up on youtube. At some point I am disgusted that our culture celebrates these stories like they're successes when what I see is a woman that destroyed multiple families. I'm glad she's learned from it, but the fact that we act like divorce is just a developmental step in our lives PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm also angry about sex. No, not the current drought I'm in. I'm pissed that I feel the way I feel, and that I feel the gap between me and women will be unbridgeable. I resent my desires, and feel like I was cursed to be a man. The way I feel today I can't visualize being open about my feelings with a woman and being accepted and satisfied, so all I can visualize is gritting my teeth through years of being misunderstood until I die. And I feel like there is so much out there about how relationships should be, how women should be, how men should be, how sex should be, blah blah blah, that I just can't imagine a woman not writing me off in a few years, diagnosing me somehow, leaving me, and then years later having a breakthrough in which they have 'grown from the experience'.
Zeus, I was catching up on your latest thread, and wanted to respond to this post. First, one of the greatest fears men have is that we will be found inadequate. When our W's complain we read that as inadequacy and our shame is triggered. You (and I for that matter) are getting one hell of a dose of that right now. This is male hell. There is actually an evolutionary explanation for why we respond this way, and then we are further socialized to this basic core belief that we try to defend.
Being left is one of the biggest failures a man can have in terms of triggering this sense of inadequacy. So you need to recognize that this is a normal feeling you are having. You are wired through biology and socialization to feel this way. The best thing you can do is recognize this.
You are doing a lot to learn how to be a wonderful H to someone. You are committed to keep doing the hard work to do this. You are standing up with courage to face your weaknesses, problems, bad habits, and you are dealing with them. That is a very, very wonderful attribute, and not all that common. Most men would engage in compensatory soothing behavior (pursuing conquests, purchasing status objects that show our worthiness, substance abuse), and some sadly succumb to suicide and self-destructive behavior that might as well be suicide. Do you see how that sets you apart and makes you excellent H material?
I'm going to recommend a book (I really have to start a book review thread at some point, because I keep doing this - I'm a college professor as well as counseling grad student - so it's an occupational hazard): Patricia Love & Steven Stosny,
How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It. My DB coach recommended it highly (& MWD has a blurb on the back cover praising it). DB Coach is a seasoned marriage counselor & therapist, as well as coach. It may be one of the handful of relationship books I've read that I'd say are must reads for both men and women. It overdraws generalizations, but besides that, it is excellent and well informed IMHO. The reason I recommend it is they really address this well-known problem of male shame of inadequacy & how to address it in a way that turns it into an asset as well as something to be wary of and find healthy compensatory habits to mitigate.
So, PMA: these fears are unfounded. You are adequate. You just need to find a partner who will work with you so that you can apply the skills and the new resolve to recognize that Ms are hard work and that you will do the hard work. That may be a reconciliation or it may be someone new. We all have the urge for emotional and physical closeness. You aren't abnormal in this and it isn't a defect. If you look on my just closed thread you'll see a bunch of us joking about our unmet needs. I've seen enough of you to know you are going to do just fine in the R department at some point. Focus on your pain now, care for yourself, and don't worry about that fuzzy future.
You're right on asitis...for me the biggest loss in this D was my sense of purpose. Every day everything I did was for my partner. Every obstacle- what motivated me to keep going was to take care of her. That was how I defined myself- the man who toiled to show his love for STBX.
She, incidentally, defined herself as the mother of our children, and made them her focus. I felt neglected because I gave to her and she only gave to them. I'm sure some would say we should only give to God, and give to each other because that's what HE wants.
Without her I feel I've been adrift. My life is fine. I don't love her, like her, or miss her. What I miss is having someone to give my life to. Maybe that's not healthy. Maybe it's ok. But that's how I feel.
This morning I am incredibly anxious. Like the panic and terror that can overwhelm you right after BD when the reality sets in. It's so horrible sometimes that even after a year I have moments when I wake up and wonder 'where did my life go?!?' Maybe I had too much caffeine and my mind is racing.
So I meditated for a while. I'm still anxious...but I can accept that voice is just one of my emotions, and doesn't define me. I will make my choices today based on who I want to be.
I am heading over now to meet with one of my old friends (a friend of my dad's I stayed with for a while, he's pushing 80 now, but at this point he's a friend of mine as well). We play chess once in a while at the coffee shop. It's been a few months, so time to get together again. He is a good man and I am grateful for his company.
Peace to all of you today.
Most of us have this urge to seek completion in another. The irony is that you can't healthily until you have first found completion in yourself. It's sort of like famous psychologist quote about it was only after he fully accepted himself as he was, was he then able to change. So it is a very normal urge, and it is good that you are aware that you have it, as so many people jump into relationships with this urge unrecognized & it makes all sorts of mischief beyond the usual relationship struggles.
Meditation isn't a quick fix, do it in response to a stress. It really only works well as a regular practice. Better to put in 5 minutes a day. It may be rough, as you will find your mind wanting to race, but that is a good thing to see, as well as the opportunity to train yourself to come back to a focus like the breath. Every time your mind races off, you build that capacity to catch it & bring it back. Then, when you are having a morning like this, sitting is much more effective at bringing down the anxiety. It does some good even if you aren't sitting regularly, but it is this cumulative, ever day training and creating some little bit of emotional space that really is where you see the difference. And that can take months and months before you really settle down in a way that you go - OH, so this is what my life can be like I never knew.
Another trick for when your mind is racing is to do something that requires a lot of focus and attention. A big part of what is leading to the anxiety and fuelling it so that you can't settle down is the story lines you feed it. If you have to do something you can really focus on, those story lines have to be dropped for a while. The fuel for the fire is removed, and the flames die down a bit.
Have fun w/ the friend, go with the decaf.
Won with white, drew with black. With white I played a nice grad prix system in response to his sicilian and built steady pressure on the king side. I didn't force the attack, but I just gradually build the position until there were too many threats and the tactical opportunities were overwhelming. It took a little courage as I sacrificed some material on the queenside, but by equalizing I would've lost my initiative. I had faith and I help up. With the black pieces I was on my heels the entire game but locked up the position and achieved a fortress to force a draw. Good times. I like playing online, but over the board is so much better.
OK- back to the topic at hand. I hear what you're saying about the 'needing someone else to complete you' stuff. I don't quite feel that way, more so that I am mourning the loss of purpose that was in my life. And if I do long for another relationship I'm ok with that to a degree. I'm past the point of needing anyone to fix me or rescue me, but I'm not the Buddha either.
I both agree and disagree with the idea of being complete on your own first. It makes sense to a point...but the part that I challenge is this implication that we are to go on some spiritual and personal growth path in which we end up as some balanced, centered, enlightened spouses, and then we can attain some type of relationship utopia. The fact is that I have, and always will have, many problems. And so does everyone, including the millions that have relatively good marriages (meaning ups and DOWNS but that stay together and find purpose and satisfaction from the partnership). So while I'm all about avoiding the paths the lead straight to destruction, I am not too hung up on achieving any pinnacle of being a DB/Therapist/Priest/TedTalksSpeaker/Socially approved new age guy. Whoever wants to be with me will have to accept that I'm just another suffering fool. The fact is no matter what I do there will be times when the R will seem stifling, restrictive, and frustrating. I'll just make sure to hold out for someone that convinces me that they understand the road ahead and that they're in it for the beauty of the struggle, not for their personal happiness.
Sounds like a good plan.
I know the pull and the feeling incomplete wo/ my best friend, lover, and partner of so long. Sometimes the moon is full & the pull of the tide is strong, but often now it's more like I'm closer to new moon tides.
hey Z, long time no see
I am not consistently at the point of feeling
perfectly content to tell her no without the need to explain further.
And
If she really wanted to know I'd let her know- as a gift to her- that I am not interested in a relationship with someone that has such disrespect for me, herself, her commitment, or to her M.
this is what I think sometimes, but others I am not so ....gracious, and those things are honestly not for her benefit of hearing, but my benefit of saying.
It's funny WE worry about our next R. I'm not about to make any moves, but it seems that potential candidates are popping up everywhere. I have to remind myself almost that when I was young, and no doubt you too, these potential candidates were even more, much more, abundant. Then I have to confess to myself that it actually wasn't easy then to strike up a R, and in all likelihood will be even harder now. Let alone logistically maintaining a R at this age and accompanied by much baggage.
It strikes me that you are almost thinking that when you are ready and have made a selection you'll just pick her off the shelf and complete your purchase. I know you are not this shallow, but I think the reality of our situation is that firstly striking up a new R is not that easy, it will evolve at a pain stakingly slow pace relative to "I'm ready, GO, sex every waking moment, issues". Is this how ANY of your Rs have played out?
Secondly, it is highly likely that we will have more than one R between now and our next possible M. I absolutely hate to think about this. Being back here again. Possibly we will meet some lovely ladies, fall in love, and 2 years down the track break up for some reason or other. And then start again.
The sex drive issue - it is possibly the opposite for me. I have had such a pathetic sex life for the past 12 years that my sex drive is very curbed. So am I going to be hung out to dry? Or will I change in this respect too.
Z - i am going to post something on my thread that I actually wrote here, but it is also an update of my own situation.
In response to your last post - why are there 2 stages here? self growth and then R. why can't they happen concurrently. once you are in a R the self growth stops? The beauty of grey my friend.
-Py
I agree with growth and a future R overlapping. Growth doesn't get shut off. In fact, in some ways it is impossible to really grow until you are in your next R. (OK, that could be taken as a double entendre but now I'm leaving it in there).
As for saying these things to STBX for my benefit, I don't feel the need. I've said them to her in my imagination 10,000 times over the first 8 months post BD, after a while I lost interest in that fictional exchange. Now I am still passionate about the subject and find myself speaking my mind when the topic comes up, but I think that's simply because I've learned my feelings on this and have studied my material as to the reasons why.
This all said is there still a part of me that would like to scream this at STBX for my benefit and not hers? I'm sure there is. In the past that would've bothered me and I would've taken it that I needed to 'grow' further still. Now I just don't care. I'm ok with the fact I'll have some emotions on this, and what I've discovered is ***accepting a little resentment or bitterness about my STBX's behavior and letting it go and moving on is MUCH healthier to me than becoming so obsessed with trying to force personal growth until I don't have these feelings at all any more, as that keeps me hung up on STBX more of the time***. So basically I'm just like "meh, maybe I do feel like adding a little sting to my comments in a fictional conversation, who cares? It won't ever happen, and if it does I wouldn't do it anyway because I would rather be eat by a goat and $h1t off a cliff than to open myself up to her emotionally ever again".
As for my relationships, yes, I've had two Rs in my life and they both went that way. I was terrified of rejection and breakups so I did what I thought would make me 'safe'. I didn't pursue other women, I waited until they approached me. I was open to women 'beneath' me in the sense of 'social standing'. I believed that relationships weren't about romantic tinglies or if we felt it was a perfect fit, I believed they were about staying together forever and that (like in an arranged marriage) it was more about what you did than who you were with.
Really I haven't come too far from that outlook. I may be open to approaching other women, and I will try to be a little more selective instead of literally marrying the first woman that asked me out. HOWEVER- I really find distaste at the idea of doing a lot of dating, trying to find some great fit and 'what you're looking for', blah blah blah.
I still feel primarily that people are looking for happiness outside themselves and are trying to find it in this companion that is perfect for them. Me, I look at it like I'm buying a car. I don't need anything flash, I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm not expecting my car to make me happy. I just want to get to and from work. I'd like my car to look nice, be a fun drive, have a cool AC, never break down, etc. But I know that eventually it will wear down, it will break down from time to time, and no matter what the thrill will be gone and it will be about maintenance and practicality.
I'm TOTALLY FINE with that. I don't want a great R. When the time comes I just want someone that isn't going to feel entitled to inner happiness from her R and try to upgrade to a different guy on me in 5-10 years. But maybe that's all that's left out there. I'm still a bit jaded and think 99% of people, even on this forum, are still hung up on finding the 'right partner' (just listen to how happy they are they are finally out of their bad M!). Maybe I'm just a bit insane, isn't that how it was defined to feel differently than the rest of your culture?
I will try to develop a good R because it would be nice, and because I know that's what my next partner will need to stay. Personally I think it's all a joke. Just STFU, serve god and your partner, let happiness comes when it comes, and quit chasing the damn dragon of external stimulation and instead just appreciate what you have. Well, that's how I'll roll. Time to go ghost ride the whip...;)
PS- all this talk about not needing a flash marriage doesn't mean I would minimize the desires of my partner. I'd long to do what I could to understand and serve my partner, as long as they knew I couldn't be their everything and wouldn't leave me because of that reality.
As for my relationships, yes, I've had two Rs in my life and they both went that way.
I was terrified of rejection and breakups so I did what I thought would make me 'safe'.
I didn't pursue other women, I waited until they approached me.
I was open to women 'beneath' me in the sense of 'social standing'.
I believed that relationships weren't about romantic tinglies or if we felt it was a perfect fit, I believed they were about staying together forever and that (like in an arranged marriage) it was more about what you did than who you were with.
Were your parents divorced?
What do you need to VALUE yourself?
What do you need to change to figure out that YOU are a "catch?"
I see the above as "nice guy" traits and codependent.
And I write this as one who is trying to reform those traits myself.
nice one Cadet. I'll have to think about this myself.
Z - i agree with your post in part, but I am not to keen on the arranged M sorta stuff. I know what you are saying, I've even commented on the same here, but this is different than just settling for 2nd best....
HOWEVER, I am totally in your boat re: marrying the 1st girl to come along thing. I had 3 Rs before W. 1 serious. There have been several false starts. As I got older though, before I met my W there was nothing really put on the table for years. A large part of this was so that I could retreat quickly and quietly.
I thought I knew what I wanted. "I('d) been searching for a heart of gold." I found it, I fell in love with her straight away, almost on purpose it would seem on reflection, there were warning signs a few years in - but I consciously squashed them, M'ed her - and now look at me.
IDK WTF happened to me. When I was younger, pre maybe 32 -----ahhhhh - pre BD 1 perhaps, until then I was so much better. I was happy, I denied externals, and then I gave everything to my W. WTF - I lost myself completely, and now I've lost her too, and ironically it is basically because I lost myself.
PS- I love FL too. Alligators and SunnyB. If I didn't have family here I'd be halfway through Georgia by now...
Everyone deserves a vacation, Zues.
That's it, I'm starting an "alligator fund"...
Good weekend. I've got my kids eating incrementally healthier, and we are eating every meal at the kitchen table. Taught my son how to shave, and helped him so he didn't cut off his lips. Finished the book we've been reading together ("Blubber", which is about school bullies, I thought it was a good topic as my son starts middle school in a few weeks). Yesterday we went to the zoo. Did a lot of walking, got to see some sights, and went on a few rides they had there as well. It was a really good time.
This morning in church the message was so awesome I had to share. It is part of their series, "God didn't say that" which talks about how frequently the Bible is misquoted or misinterpreted. Today's misunderstood phrase was "Everything happens for a reason".
The pasture said people derive from that saying that everything is "God's will". That he's all powerful, so somehow he's doing something good all the time, and that when bad things happen that we just can't see the good. The pasture said that isn't entirely true.
He said there are times that God has a hand in bad things, for two reasons. One is he has something better in mind for us, another is that he is trying to make us into stronger people to accomplish a greater good.
But the pasture went on to say that sometimes bad things happen for bad reasons. Those reasons are sometimes the natural consequences when we turn away from God's path, and sometimes we're just caught in the crossfire of other people's sins as well. When we turn against God he allows us to suffer the terror of pursuing our own will.
He reminded us that Jesus endured all forms of suffering, from betrayal by a friend, to crucifixion. By continuing to have faith and follow God he allowed himself to be used for a greater good. If we follow God we can allow good to come from many of the bad things that happen. It just won't always happen the way we want, or on the timelines we want.
So today I'm remembering to let go of my timelines, expectations, and my own personal desires. I've made some horrible mistakes in my life and am responsible for the consequences of turning away from God and trying to pursue my own will in the past. I can't cry out to God for the destruction of my family when I didn't serve him well during my M. What I really want is to get back to doing what's expected of me he best I can.
I've got my kids eating incrementally healthier, and we are eating every meal at the kitchen table. .
Yay! I'm big on the value of the kitchen table. The first time I visited H's parents, I was horrified they didn't have a dining table, kitchen table, or even any stools at the kitchen counter. They ate on the couch in front of the tv. It's a wonder I M him.
But the pastor went on to say that sometimes bad things happen for bad reasons. Those reasons are sometimes the natural consequences when we turn away from God's path, and sometimes we're just caught in the crossfire of other people's sins as well.
Yep...
I can't cry out to God for the destruction of my family when I didn't serve him well during my M.
Yes you can. God already knows all about it and he still loves you and wants to comfort you. You don't have to be perfect to receive that.
The Everglades are a short distance from me. At least once a year my kids and I go out there to look at the birds and the alligators. They don't do much...#alligatorsforever
You're right Sunny. God's compassion is the greatest gift.
Dropped the kids off tonight. It's always the hardest part of the week. It's funny, we watched a movie today, "Ladyhawke". I was a big Matthew Broderick fan as a kid so saw this movie, thought I'd see it with the kids.
For those who haven't seen it, it's about a couple that was in true love but were cursed by a jealous third party. The man turns into a wolf at night, the lady turns into a hawk during the day. They are constant companions but can never be together. Only occasionally can they see each other for just a few moments as the sun rises, but before they can touch the lady turns into a hawk again and the man is left heartbroken.
I say it's funny because I felt that way dropping off my kids. It's like I have just these few moments with them, then POOF, they're gone.
Hopefully my L gets stuff going and this can change soon. I'm sure 6/14 nights would feel monumentally different than 4/14.
Lastly, I've realized what I am really craving in my future R. A VOICE. I am pretty flexible. But I want a voice. In my last R it seemed like NEITHER of us were very good at validating each other. We were never much of a team. I know I felt completely bulldozed, dismissed, diminished, and disrespected, and it wouldn't surprise me if she felt the same way. What I'd really like is to be able to work as a team where I felt my existence was validated, that my wants/needs/emotions/desires/thoughts were listened to and taking into account, just as hers would be. Not dismissed out of hand because they were "wrong" for not lining up with hers.
Sometimes I feel if I could achieve that almost anything would be possible. I guess I'll work on doing my half of that in the relationships I am currently in, and we'll let the future take care of itself.
[quote=Zues126]
The Everglades are a short distance from me. At least once a year my kids and I go out there to look at the birds and the alligators. They don't do much...#alligatorsforever
Short distance. Everglades. Noted.
I'm closing in. I've got a blown up map of Florida with 17 bobby pins sticking in it based on other things you've mentioned, tied together with yarn and obscure comments scribbled on post it notes. Keep the clues coming...
I'm closing in. I've got a blown up map of Florida with 17 bobby pins sticking in it based on other things you've mentioned, tied together with yarn and obscure comments scribbled on post it notes. Keep the clues coming...
You are hilarious. You already know I'm in Miami, so that narrows it down to approximately 2.6 million people. You know I'm not Latin, so that narrows it down to 910,000 people. Less than a million people to sort through. Closing in, indeed.
I watched a show over the weekend where couples, in an effort to save their marriages, "swapped" partners for two weeks. Risky, in my opinion, but they thought it would work for them, make them appreciate their partners more. Anyway...there was one woman I particularly identified with, her H was rather dominant and she walked on eggshells all the time. Hello, me! In the swap, she found her VOICE, learned to speak out with the fake spouse, and hopefully she can go learn to speak her mind to her own husband, too. I know I need that in my next R. I don't think it would have saved this one, quite frankly, but I can't say for sure. I know at the time I thought I was saving my M by not speaking out, but I didn't realize the damage I was doing to myself. Lesson learned for both of us, Zues.
I still feel primarily that people are looking for happiness outside themselves and are trying to find it in this companion that is perfect for them. Me, I look at it like I'm buying a car. I don't need anything flash, I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm not expecting my car to make me happy. I just want to get to and from work. I'd like my car to look nice, be a fun drive, have a cool AC, never break down, etc. But I know that eventually it will wear down, it will break down from time to time, and no matter what the thrill will be gone and it will be about maintenance and practicality.
I'm TOTALLY FINE with that. I don't want a great R. When the time comes I just want someone that isn't going to feel entitled to inner happiness from her R and try to upgrade to a different guy on me in 5-10 years. But maybe that's all that's left out there. I'm still a bit jaded and think 99% of people, even on this forum, are still hung up on finding the 'right partner' (just listen to how happy they are they are finally out of their bad M!). Maybe I'm just a bit insane, isn't that how it was defined to feel differently than the rest of your culture?
I will try to develop a good R because it would be nice, and because I know that's what my next partner will need to stay. Personally I think it's all a joke. Just STFU, serve god and your partner, let happiness comes when it comes, and quit chasing the damn dragon of external stimulation and instead just appreciate what you have. Well, that's how I'll roll. Time to go ghost ride the whip...;)
I am going to confess I cringed a little when I read this. R's aren't like buying a car. R's don't become just about maintenance and practicality. And your main concern is what you can do to get them to stay and not upgrade in 5-10 years.
That's a view of someone who is totally not ready for an R yet. Or probably even being close. Yes, I completely agree that happiness needs to be found inwardly. Someone cannot make you happy if you aren't already. But I do believe someone can make you HAPPIER if you are already good with yourself.
But I would hope you want a great R one day. I'm not talking fairytale, but yes, everyone should have a great R. What is great to them. And right now what seems to be great to you is someone who isn't going to up and leave and doesn't look to you to be happy.
I can almost guarantee your outlook on R's and a partner is going to change. After a bad M or an A, we become jaded a while. I had crap, and now I want what I know is attainable. Which is more than just someone to be there and to stay there.
Interesting. I reread what I wrote. It was definitely a rant. But the point I was trying to make and that came across to me when I reread it was that people are overwhelmingly too hung up on getting the M they think they want and deserve. Expectation and entitlement.
I believe that by being a bit less selfish benefits in a number of ways. It allows us to be appreciative for what we have instead of being resentful for what we don't have. It keeps us together instead of looking for something better. And by being together and appreciative, it gives the best chances of making the M as good as possible. Not rainbows and sunshine, but a working partnership. That's what I want.
I've seen people who's M breakdown because of selfishness and entitlement decide to "find themselves" post D, and they sometimes reach the conclusion that they should've held out for more, demanded more, etc. This makes sense for some, but if selfishness played a role in the breakdown of the M then that doesn't apply to everyone. I posted yesterday that I do want more of a voice in my next R, but that I'm not too cemented on what I want that R to look like because I want to be open to my partner's voice as well.
But yes, that is a long ways off. I am not D yet, still feel jaded at times, and just in general am not ready to consider that type of thing. I do know, though, that one demand I'll make of my next partner is that they don't have a long list of rigid demands. That's the type of thinking that to me is a red flag.
I'm not saying not to have standards...it's all about balance. If I said I have a list of 100 things I require from my spouse and if any of them aren't there I'm filing D and finding someone else, that would be a problem for people too. I'm just saying the balance in general seems to be tipped too far.
It's all good.
Sunny...the post you just made on your thread about who you'd want with you...it reminded me of something that ties in with what I've been ranting about.
It's "Do you love me" from the Fiddler on the Roof.
Anyone that hasn't seen this song- please do. It illustrates to me what a M is all about.
What I have learned from my failed marriage and the work that I've done in the past 7 years is that finding someone who's values are in-line with yours is pretty crucial. My ex was a not a good guy. Our values were very different but I sadly enough ignored that for many reasons. Our priorities were very different. He never looked deep within and probably never will. He may be scared to find what's there. And will always seek his happiness in others and if he isn't happy it isn't something he believes he needs to fix. He looks externally rather than internally.
You are right about balance. Ii know some marriages breakdown because they feel entitled to things being a certain way and when they aren't they say "buh-bye" ( like mine did). But I will tell you, I do have expectations of my next partner. That they put in the work,compromise and never say " well, this is just the way it's going to be". When things aren't all that great. I do expect work towards a partnership. And those expectations are ok to have. Not someone to be a certain way, but to be their best selves.
that narrows it down to 910,000 people. Less than a million people to sort through.
Hey, Zues, I'm feeling rather punchy this evening, so let me help you out a bit more. Females are 51% of the Miami population, so that takes you down to 464,100 people. Helpful?
I watched and appreciated your Fiddler on the Roof song. I do agree that's what a long term M is all about. But I want more. I want someone I don't have to ask. And someone that it's not a revelation when they figure out they do actually love me.
that narrows it down to 910,000 people. Less than a million people to sort through.
Hey, Zues, I'm feeling rather punchy this evening, so let me help you out a bit more. Females are 51% of the Miami population, so that takes you down to 464,100 people. Helpful?
The game is afoot...
that narrows it down to 910,000 people. Less than a million people to sort through.
Hey, Zues, I'm feeling rather punchy this evening, so let me help you out a bit more. Females are 51% of the Miami population, so that takes you down to 464,100 people. Helpful?
The game is afoot...
Zeus,
I gather that you are not mathematically gifted here. Put on some brain power.
The clues are all in Sunny's sig.....
-Eliminate all females who are not in the 50-52 age range
-Eliminate all females in the 50-52 range who are childless
The number is down to probably 35,326 people.
You're getting warmer.
I watched and appreciated your Fiddler on the Roof song. I do agree that's what a long term M is all about. But I want more. I want someone I don't have to ask. And someone that it's not a revelation when they figure out they do actually love me.
You know, it's strange. I must have a hard time with shades of grey.
In my M I wasn't a good H. I had high expectations, was demanding, and as a result made STBX feel insufficient and unloved for who she was. I was frustrated that she didn't seem to care about what was important to me and grew resentful, which in turn led to poor behavior.
When I joined this forum I learned about how destructive expectations are. I learned that we find our own happiness, and that we can't control others. I found out that the phrase "if you loved me you'd..." was almost always going down the wrong path. Most importantly, I discovered that by focusing on what I wanted instead of appreciating what I had resentment fostered, and I missed out on the opportunity to have a decent M in my pursuit of an outstanding M.
This is why I've really been trying to let go. Would I like a great M? Absolutely. Am I willing to work hard? Absolutely! Ginger, I am a super high achiever, like breaking the bell curve at what I do. M is so important to me I wanted a great M, one that navigated through all of the problems that caused so many others to break down. But I've seen that my intensity and insatiable desire to make the M better actually made it worse. So I've been trying to accept the reality, which is that every M has problems, and none of them are as great as the ideals we long for, particularly if we look for the M to combat the human condition which is at times filled with isolation and suffering.
Because of this the idea that we must seek the perfect partner is very confusing to me. On the one had it makes sense, you can't change your partner so get someone that is rowing the same direction on some fundamental key values and at least you'll be in the right vicinity. And I get that the best protection against D is having a great M, as it is more likely to withstand against temptation and resignation. On the other hand, for me it is really an acknowledgement that I have to be accepting of what my partner turns out to be. My partner will grow and change over the years, and I have to be willing to accept the reality of whatever that turns out to be to a large extent and run with it.
It's not easy. I bring so much to what I do that being partnered is a challenge. If I'm on a team odds are it's my teammates holding me back. I broke some records at my job in July, then broke them again in August, so I'm destroying it...but most of my challenges come from holding my support staff accountable and getting results in a world where most employees are disengaged or incompetent. But I realize that not many people are like me, and I transcend that to get the results I'm looking for. For those reasons I am trying really hard to understand that it's very likely that regardless of whether I interviewed 1,000 women I will never find someone that cares as much as I do, that wants to put in what I want to put in, etc. I am putting most of my energy into accepting what feels like mediocrity, so I don't go down the path of feeling perpetually exasperated like I did in my M.
Again, I feel like I've been going around in circles on this for a year in my head. I guess that's what I need to do for a while longer until I can find the middle road.
that narrows it down to 910,000 people. Less than a million people to sort through.
Hey, Zues, I'm feeling rather punchy this evening, so let me help you out a bit more. Females are 51% of the Miami population, so that takes you down to 464,100 people. Helpful?
The game is afoot...
Zeus,
I gather that you are not mathematically gifted here. Put on some brain power.
The clues are all in Sunny's sig.....
-Eliminate all females who are not in the 50-52 age range
-Eliminate all females in the 50-52 range who are childless
The number is down to probably 35,326 people.
You're getting warmer.
Careful Wonka, don't wake up my competitive side. I can calculate in my head better than anyone this side of rainman and could probably out perform most computers make before March of 2013.
I'm breathing deep, breathing deep.
(you're talking to the person that wasn't allowed to play games during my time in the halfway house because I needed to learn how to conduct myself outside of competition)
PS- ok, thanks for the help
Just think how low that number would be if you included the birth date
(can be found quickly looking through old threads
)
Zeus,
I would like to touch on the running theme of competitiveness in some of your posts.
In viewing your posts over the past several months, it is apparent to us that you are a competitive pool player and work in the sales field (if I'm wrong, please let me know). These vocations get your competitive juices flowing and it's what makes you tick.
On the other hand, I am wondering if the competitive spirit has inadvertently flowed into the marriage that had some unintended consequences. Let's be crystal clear here: I am not laying the blame at your feet for the demise of your M. Instead, what I am trying to achieve here, is to point out some patterns that you may unknowingly emanate that adversely impacts your spouse.
The unspoken message from the competitiveness is that if one isn't 100% at a certain level of "performance"--whether making sales calls or engaging in the family home---then they're deemed "less than" fill in the blank. I wonder how that mindset, approach, and patterning has effected the marital relationship.
Given that you've stated here and elsewhere some of "expectations" of what you want in your next spouse, aren't you setting her up for failure. It just seems to me that you are basing those "expectations" on your filter with fresh wounds from your W's decision to leave the marriage.
What I fear for you is that your fresh and deep wounds are coloring your worldview thus blocking you from being open to new ideas, new approaches, new way of thinking, and new way of relating that is more organic.
-What would you differently if you were to get engaged again to a different woman?
-Are you able to catch yourself telepathically communicating to the new woman of your unspoken expectations of what constitutes a marriage?
-Have you be able to examine where and how your competitiveness may have some negative downsides when it comes to intimate relationships?
Hey Wonka. Thanks for the post.
Yes, I'm a top pool player, and a sales juggernaut. It's how I was wired. It has it's advantageous, such as I know I'll invariably become the best at whatever I set my mind to, and that brings financial and other rewards. But yes, it's been a curse too, because I'm definitely a bit crazy. Words like "expansive" and "intense" describe me. My IC told me I was "a bit crazy". I told him that I'm not delusional, that I didn't imagine winning all of those tournaments, or getting promoted 4 times in 4 years. He agreed, but said I also didn't imagine my wife leaving me and my personal life falling apart. Touche.
It's very funny you talk about me setting my future spouse up for failure. Others have been talking to me about the dangers of relaxing my standards, settling, or accepting a less that totally fulfilling M. I HOPE YOU GUYS SEE HOW CONFUSED I AM!
Wonka, to be clear, I really don't look down at anyone that hasn't achieved at the level I have. We are all different animals. Some are dogs, some are cats, I happen to be a Tyrannosaurus. We all have a part to play in the dance. And I totally respect others for who they are and what they do.
You nailed it though when you said my "intimate relationships" may have suffered. See, when people get TOO close to me I start identifying with them. Sometimes I catch myself applying my own personal standards to them. THAT'S not OK. The only times I've ever been frustrated with my best friend was when I started treating him how I treat myself. The only time I've been angry with my children is when I talk to them in the voice I talk to myself with. It's not angry...it's not scary...it's intense like 10,000 suns...the unwillingness to accept any outcome but victory, that any obstacle in between me and the win is in as much danger as someone between a mother bear and her cubs...And, during my M, I know I allowed my W to feel my full intensity at times.
I know I've grown in this area. I've been more aware of it. This is best monitored by how I am with my children. I am more in the moment. I honor who they are as people. I recognize they are at different points in their lives with their own views, and I accept that they have their own story which is just as legitimate as mine. So I know I've come a long ways.
As for my 'next R', sometimes I feel that's impossible. Sometimes I feel it's unfair. I see great sports heroes, business tycoons, and politicians who's wives are there, proud of them, supporting them. I learn about these individuals and some of them are way more over the top than I am in terms of how they conduct themselves in their family and yet their women stay by their side and root them on. I am definitely very hurt STBX didn't do this. Both the leaving, and the dismissal of the part of me that made me who I am. And most of the time I can't imagine the 'new woman', because all I can imagine are women that would punt me to the curb because I'm infringing on their pursuit of their personal happiness. Yes, I'm damn intense. Yes, I'm a bit crazy. But I will be faithful to the grave, provide lavishly, I'm sensitive as heck, and of all the things I am driven to do- becoming a good husband who's wife feels the love I have for her in my heart is the goal that means the most to me. But for some reason I feel doomed, that somehow this is the one goal that's beyond my ability because I'm just not normal.
So this is where I go in circles. Maintain my standards, or settle? Continue to try to grow and manage my extreme personality, or accept myself for who I am right now? I guess the answer is "all of the above".
Really, I know I am not ready for another R. I AM skewed. I can't imagine a woman enduring me, and I am so tired of being dismissed as I was in my M that I can't even imagine asking for what I want anymore because I just feel so defeated. But if I were in a new relationship I would definitely try to find a way to both honor my partner for who they were (the way I am with my children) and learn to speak my voice with confidence but not unilateral authority. (In my M I went back and forth, I was so afraid of bulldozing STBX that I would bite my tongue for years, not speak my voice, but then get frustrated that she wouldn't hear me until I'd end up shouting...YES- I've read NMMNG!!!)
Very confused, and pretty defeated by thinking about it, which is ok because I'm still M and right now I just need to be there for my kids and make sure that I close so many deals in September that they assign me a team of personal assistants...
I hear what you're saying Zeus..you have a lot of determination and want to do everything with diligence and just want a woman who loves you the way you are or the way you will be..I know you will find that woman whether it be your W or someone else..I understand what people are saying about setting up a future woman for failure but I know I'm kind of different and old school but I practically begged my H to tell me what he wanted,how he wanted it and I even begged him to step up and be the man of the house and take charge and he wouldn't do it so I believe there is someone for everyone and even if you stay the way you are the right woman will appreciate and love you for it..i hope I'm making sense I'm about to fall asleep lol
Zues, I don't think there's any harm in pondering future Rs, we all do it, but I sometimes think you plan on walking out of divorce court and meeting your next wife at the coffee shop next to the courthouse. Have you considered that you might have to date a lot of frogs before that princess shows up? Are you going to be able to handle that?
I have a very specific goal in mind for my first real bf after the D. He's going to be younger than me by a good 10 years, have a lot of free time, and I'm not going to M him.
Speaking of D.....what's happening with yours? You don't talk about the legal process much. I'm finding it really stressful, and we aren't even really started yet.
Zues, I don't think there's any harm in pondering future Rs, we all do it, but I sometimes think you plan on walking out of divorce court and meeting your next wife at the coffee shop next to the courthouse. Have you considered that you might have to date a lot of frogs before that princess shows up? Are you going to be able to handle that?
I'm not sure if you mean that you think I'm going to date too soon or whether you are just saying it won't happen that quickly.
I am not going to date anytime soon. I do think I've thought a lot about this. I think the reason why is because outside of an R I feel perfectly normal. My kids are good, my job is awesome, I love my friends, I have interesting passions, and even some time to read and play some chess now and then. The only part of my world that I've ever had trouble with is my M, so I am spending a lot of time thinking about what went wrong, what I'd do differently, etc. It's like I'm trying to grow and the measuring stick is whether I could pull off being a good husband, not so much that I want that immediately.
As for kissing a lot of frogs, please realize I've had a different experience. I've only dated two women. One I was with for 5 years until she left. The other I was M to for 10 years.
No, the idea of dating a lot of frogs doesn't sound appealing. I'm only interested in a long term committed relationship. If that's not out there then I'll just rock it solo. As far as whether I should be more selective and give myself more opportunities, that's not easy for me. I can be more selective, and in fact am trying to figure out what that might look like. Maybe I could have more interactions if I did some online dating or something. But not interested in a bunch of 2-12 month relationships that don't pan out. I'll probably approach it with an element of 'let's cut the crap and see if we have potential to go anywhere'. Not saying I can't go on a date or two, but I'm not killing time.
I have a very specific goal in mind for my first real bf after the D. He's going to be younger than me by a good 10 years, have a lot of free time, and I'm not going to M him.
Funny. Yeah, we're a little different here. But I'm glad you know what you want!
Speaking of D.....what's happening with yours? You don't talk about the legal process much. I'm finding it really stressful, and we aren't even really started yet.
It's absurd. I haven't talked about it because it's so f'd up that I'd rather not think about it. It is appalling to the point of being absolutely nauseating. But that's what happens when your life is wrung through a few lawyers, mediators, and courts. Remember what I said about working on a team and having everyone else drive me insane? That's what's going on.
Things are happening so slowly it's like watching a glacier move. I'm furious with my L and probably one email away from firing her, calling off mediation, and going to court. I can't wait any longer for several reasons.
One is that I'm only seeing my children 4/14 nights. It's been a year. I dropped my kids off this morning. I can't stomach not seeing them for nearly an entire week again. It's garbage and I want this changed. We've been talking about it, but it's been too long, and meanwhile they are growing up.
Another is my income. In July and August I earned about 200% of what I was making a year ago. My income is on the rise SUBSTANTIALLY. And while I want to support my children, I don't want to be obligated to pay 200% of what I would if we could settle this case today because we drag this out. We're talking a lot of money. I want to help provide for my children out of love, not at gun point from a vindictive ex and soulless court system.
Finally, STBX is playing possum. The same way I'm concerned about rising income, she is trying to be as helpless as possible right now. She's clearly afraid that any money she starts making will 'cost her', and the more helpless she can look the more she can hit me for. So she hasn't gone back to work yet even though she said she would start work a YEAR ago. She's living on credit lines that I'm still exposed on to an extent. Etc. I know the minute the settlement is inked she's got plans to burst into action and make as much as possible.
Point is if we want what's best for the family we should have this done, so both her and I have incentives to contribute as much as possible, instead of being afraid of how it could impact our settlement.
Meanwhile nothing is happening. I hate nagging, but I am out of patience. I asked my L for an update and told her she could get back to me Monday/Tuesday. No reply (AGAIN). So I just emailed her a couple of point blank questions and ended by saying "I need assurance this is moving or I can't stay on this road". A couple of weeks ago I told her "the only reason I am not asking for status updates daily is that it makes me nauseous to think about this and my quality of life is better if I simply look away and trust that at some point something has to happen".
Sunny, if I'm starting to lean on her it's only because I've been too patient too long. This has taken FOREVER. But maybe that's just because of my intensity. No matter who I work with everyone else will always feel like they are moving at a snails pace because to me it's just line it up and knock it down. Focus. Urgency. Execution. Magic...but the rest of the world doesn't seem to work that way.
So that's why I don't talk about my D. Every time I think about it I get sick. I guess this will have to get resolved eventually, and if it costs me thousands of dollars a month more because my income rises then screw it, I'll just become the number one in the nation at what I do and make so much I can leak off a few hundred grand and still get where I'm going. They can't catch me I'm the (%*( gingerbread man.
OK, I'm calmed down now. But yeah, D is pretty disgusting.
Hey Zues - I just read your D status update and I don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it. I can tell you are really frustrated with the process. This is just a tid bit of info but during our last mediation my L brought up determining a date of asset valuation, i.e. the date of D filing. On this date the status of assets or income, bank account total, etc is what everything is based on. So if you go by filing date then it doesn't matter that you are making 200% more now, it would be based on what you had on that date, make sense? Something to maybe ask your L about? If she ever gets back to you.
Hey Zeus,
It has been forever since I have read up on your thread. To self absorbed in my own sitch.
Dating - I can't even imagine this right now. 1) Too much work to do on me first 2) it makes me nauseous thinking about being with someone that is not my H. Even if we were D, it would still feel like cheating until I worked through this R/M. The whole thing with an A and divorce is so beyond my scope of understanding. I don't understand how the WAS can have A and decide to D at same time. I mean I get the A is a numbing agent. Still, not a time to be making a serious decision.
Divorce Process - I am just starting this, but I will say the D laws are ridiculous and still need major overhauling. I think As would take a dip if they actually mattered in a D. Really there seems to be zero ramification (unless you have children) if someone decides to get into A...at least in my state. Actually, I stand to be penalized before my H as it relates to A and D. I asked my L what woukd happen if my H gets fired because of A. I would have to pay maintence. WTF?!
So far I really like my L, but we have only just started this process. Makes me feel I am in good hands and seems to care.have a LONG way to go though.
So glad to hear that you are doing so well at work. It is nice to have some positives to keep you going.
Hope you are well.
I'm not sure if you mean that you think I'm going to date too soon or whether you are just saying it won't happen that quickly.
As for kissing a lot of frogs, please realize I've had a different experience. I've only dated two women. One I was with for 5 years until she left. The other I was M to for 10 years.
I meant that it won't happen that quickly. I know you've had an unusual experience and that's exactly why I brought it up. It just doesn't happen that way for most people. Maybe you'll just get really lucky and Ms Soul Mate will show up immediately, but.....what I'm concerned about, hon (I'm Southern, I'm allowed), is that you won't have the patience to date and learn from a few frogs. You can think through and write down exactly what you want in a woman, but they rarely come packaged as neatly as that. I want to see you head over heels with some live woman who almost meets your expectation, but maybe not quite. Then what are you going to do?
I have a very specific goal in mind for my first real bf after the D. He's going to be younger than me by a good 10 years, have a lot of free time, and I'm not going to M him.
Funny. Yeah, we're a little different here. But I'm glad you know what you want!
Largely fantasy on my behalf, but a good one. I'm not backing off it just yet. I have been very frustrated and anxious this week, and, well......this seems very appealing right now. I'm sure at some point my brain will kick back in.
Thanks for the update on the legal D. Sorry its not going well.
Two weeks ago, STBX was talking about the possibility of structuring the D finances so that I didn't have to go back to work. Now that a L has hold of it, I'm not making full employment potential of my education and experience and I should be bringing in a lot more $$ that the jobs I'm currently applying for. This process [censored].
Hey Zeus,
It has been forever since I have read up on your thread. To self absorbed in my own sitch.
Dating - I can't even imagine this right now. 1) Too much work to do on me first 2) it makes me nauseous thinking about being with someone that is not my H. Even if we were D, it would still feel like cheating until I worked through this R/M. The whole thing with an A and divorce is so beyond my scope of understanding. I don't understand how the WAS can have A and decide to D at same time. I mean I get the A is a numbing agent. Still, not a time to be making a serious decision.
Divorce Process - I am just starting this, but I will say the D laws are ridiculous and still need major overhauling. I think As would take a dip if they actually mattered in a D. Really there seems to be zero ramification (unless you have children) if someone decides to get into A...at least in my state. Actually, I stand to be penalized before my H as it relates to A and D. I asked my L what woukd happen if my H gets fired because of A. I would have to pay maintence. WTF?!
So far I really like my L, but we have only just started this process. Makes me feel I am in good hands and seems to care.have a LONG way to go though.
So glad to hear that you are doing so well at work. It is nice to have some positives to keep you going.
Hope you are well.
Hey BT, thanks for posting. I've been holding off on posting on your thread because I thought you were mad at me. I guess I need to go back to how to not mind read 101! Sorry!
I agree with everything you said 100%. I posted this on Elly's thread, my IC told me it would be 3-5 years before I have really moved on. Most people are just rebounding in one way or another. I agree, I am not ready to give anyone my heart for a long time. How could I? I feel it would be unfair to them for me to not be fully recovered.
Furthermore, I think the talk about a "future R" is some form of denial for some, like if we DB now we'll R, and if not we'll find some future R that will make up for the fact that this M died. Nope. It won't. That's what people tell themselves that INITIATE D's, I'm not going to pretend.
And yes, D laws are disgusting. The fact that there is even D law is disgusting. I guess they serve a purpose, but I am 100% on board with everything you've said. I wish there were MUCH more strenuous consequences for initiating a D, both legally, socially, etc. I can't change many things in the world so I will accept what I have to, but I can cast my vote and I can tell you I will be very vocal about my opinions should anyone in my circle talk about leaving a M. Did you know that people who's close friends go through a divorce are 75% more likely to get a divorce? Something like that (heard it yesterday). Point is I'm going to be very selective about who I let close to me in the future.
I'll keep posting on your sitch, I've been following and am very proud of you. Only one comment- it's not equally your fault and his you're D. It's equally your fault that the M stunk towards the end. It's 100% his fault for the D. Doesn't help to focus on that and I appreciate you going back to you, but I will tip my hat to your commitment to the M and the way you've handled it. It's been a brutal road for you too and you're doing great, particularly since you're only a few months in.
I'm not sure if you mean that you think I'm going to date too soon or whether you are just saying it won't happen that quickly.
As for kissing a lot of frogs, please realize I've had a different experience. I've only dated two women. One I was with for 5 years until she left. The other I was M to for 10 years.
I meant that it won't happen that quickly. I know you've had an unusual experience and that's exactly why I brought it up. It just doesn't happen that way for most people. Maybe you'll just get really lucky and Ms Soul Mate will show up immediately, but.....what I'm concerned about, hon (I'm Southern, I'm allowed), is that you won't have the patience to date and learn from a few frogs. You can think through and write down exactly what you want in a woman, but they rarely come packaged as neatly as that. I want to see you head over heels with some live woman who almost meets your expectation, but maybe not quite. Then what are you going to do?
I have a very specific goal in mind for my first real bf after the D. He's going to be younger than me by a good 10 years, have a lot of free time, and I'm not going to M him.
Funny. Yeah, we're a little different here. But I'm glad you know what you want!
Largely fantasy on my behalf, but a good one. I'm not backing off it just yet. I have been very frustrated and anxious this week, and, well......this seems very appealing right now. I'm sure at some point my brain will kick back in.
Thanks for the update on the legal D. Sorry its not going well.
Two weeks ago, STBX was talking about the possibility of structuring the D finances so that I didn't have to go back to work. Now that a L has hold of it, I'm not making full employment potential of my education and experience and I should be bringing in a lot more $$ that the jobs I'm currently applying for. This process [censored].
Don't worry Sunny, I am incapable of ever falling head over heels for a woman again. It would be easier for a grassy field to fall in love with a riding lawn mower
Seriously, yes, the D process stinks. It's a weird universe with different laws of physics, and what you think, feel, and care about ceases to matter. The same apathy with which a warehouse employee throws boxes into the back of a u-haul, that's the way lives are torn apart through the court process. Collaborative L, cooperative H, fine and dandy...but my IC says it's all a joke, and that 100% of people say that's how it will go, but 90% of the time it's a free fall by the end and everything just gets ripped apart and people just slam stuff until it's over and the two parties resent each other for years or forever.
But let's just keep upping that divorce rate, have WAS's post more inspirational pictures on facebook about how they are growing in so many ways, and showing our kids that if your partner doesn't complete you then it's time to find someone that does.
I think my next R will be with an alligator.
Hey Zues - I just read your D status update and I don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it. I can tell you are really frustrated with the process. This is just a tid bit of info but during our last mediation my L brought up determining a date of asset valuation, i.e. the date of D filing. On this date the status of assets or income, bank account total, etc is what everything is based on. So if you go by filing date then it doesn't matter that you are making 200% more now, it would be based on what you had on that date, make sense? Something to maybe ask your L about? If she ever gets back to you.
This would be awesome. I just emailed my L and asked. Our date was 6/30...established in mediation. So if mediation fails then maybe that would be thrown out.
Again- my L knows this is my number 2 priority behind parenting time. I feel I shouldn't have to ask this question, she should be telling me! Face in palm.
I am not going to date anytime soon. I do think I've thought a lot about this. I think the reason why is because outside of an R I feel perfectly normal. My kids are good, my job is awesome, I love my friends, I have interesting passions, and even some time to read and play some chess now and then. The only part of my world that I've ever had trouble with is my M, so I am spending a lot of time thinking about what went wrong, what I'd do differently, etc. It's like I'm trying to grow and the measuring stick is whether I could pull off being a good husband, not so much that I want that immediately.
As for kissing a lot of frogs, please realize I've had a different experience. I've only dated two women. One I was with for 5 years until she left. The other I was M to for 10 years.
No, the idea of dating a lot of frogs doesn't sound appealing. I'm only interested in a long term committed relationship. If that's not out there then I'll just rock it solo.
Not that you should be worrying about this right now, but nothing wrong with going out with people as friends and seeing where it goes. Don't think of it as dating, but rather as friending. Hey, there is a movie I want to see and I'd like someone to see it with and talk about it after. Thought of you. Interested? Go have fun. Not sexual. Not a relationship, unless it turns into that. Just GAL.
Anyway, I understand the wanting a committed R. I truly do. But w/ kids, I know that finding that person is going to be a challenge. In the meantime, I still want a life outside of that with friends. Maybe my socialization, but I just never have felt comfortable asking my male acquaintances, "hey, you wanna catch
Straight Outta Compton this weekend w/ me?"
A lot of people just want someone to go do things with rather than sitting at home. It doesn't have to be a date with all those implications. In a lot of European countries (I'm thinking esp. of the Scandinavian countries that I have friends from), you see a lot more true male-female friendships (go have a beer, catch a movie) even among married people. We tend to get hung up on having it all be part of an R if it is male-female. Not everyone, but that seems to be just more common. You can't ask someone to go do something without it being a date. A lot of fun and just human connection gets missed out on if that's the case IMHO.
Now, I happen to be w/ Sunny on this one. I have no intention of marrying the next person I date. You don't know if that intention will turn into reality or you will get a surprise, but then you don't know if the intention of getting into a long-term committed R will turn out that way either. I would have never have M my W if I had not started out thinking of it as a friendship with someone who turned out to have an interest in me as more than friends. I did too, I just didn't recognize it at first (we worked together & I really enjoyed her friendship and didn't want to mess that up to even allow myself to think of more - although I always noticed that she had a really nice a$$).
I can imagine dating already. I even have run into some women (fortunately or not who are obscenely too young for me, at least that's how I see it) who I am very attracted to both as friends and sexually. I just can't imagine dating being anything other than an uncomfortable mess right now.
So, we give it time, and we deal with what is in front of us right now. That's more than enough to deal with. So for now, I'll just handle the sexual attraction, but I'm still going to consider going out as friends so that I can go to the symphony or a movie and know they share that interest.
Can't sleep. Woke up in a lot of mental anguish. It doesn't feel mental though. It feels physical. Like a tumor in the middle of my stomach. Just need to get some of this out of my system.
First off, let me explain. I'm not like all of you. I'm just not. I'm not better, I'm not worse, but I am god d-mn sure different. I have the same parts, I can blend in during social situations, and I can function at high levels. But I'm practically an alien. I have fire in my belly that burns like the sun. I am extremely sensitive. And I have this belief that what we do with our time here is really important, and because of that I feel an incredible sense of pressure to do the best I can, and to do it right. I have a near impossible time accepting a sloppy life that is pissed away. I am not easy to live with as I am different, but I can provide loyalty, commitment, sensitivity, security, and the status of being my top priority in my life. Maybe that's good enough for someone. Maybe not.
I don't have women friends. It doesn't work for me. I only have room for one woman in my life. I don't want to 'kiss a bunch of frogs'. I don't think of woman as some type of merchandise in a catalog in which I'm going to try a lot on and see which style I like. I think it's all a big joke. Right now I have the perception that 99.9% of the people out there are living unintentionally, breaking vows and degrading the purity of a loving and committed relationship.
I want nothing to do with any of it. I'm not trying to convince any of you this is the correct way to live or be, I am not on your threads advising this. But this is absolutely who I am, and this isn't going to change. I might be single for the rest of my life, and I'd prefer that than being around someone that doesn't feel the same as me on this one. Because to me the idea of trying to find the 'right' partner is about as silly as if you were planning on sailing across the Atlantic Ocean and waiting for a 'sunny day' to set sail. The voyage will take months, the weather will change and get stormy, the ship will be tossed and turned, so if a few clouds at the onset scare you off don't even bother going. What matters is not what the initial forecast looks like, but that you have a crew that knows what lies ahead and is committed to make it across or die trying. I have that commitment. Most people are half a$$. That's it. Like my L that still hasn't gotten back to me. This is the world we live in.
I am extremely introverted. No one sees this because I am on center stage a lot, running through tournaments, winning awards at work. I was the 'man on campus' in my management role, the entire department came to me for guidance, and I had many bonds formed. I currently work with a few hundred people and have no problem moving through the masses and shaking hands and kissing babies. But my inner self...this is reserved for me and one other person. It is the most precious part of me, something I don't share with everyone. And I'm only willing to share it with someone that understands how precious it is.
These forums have opened my eyes to the reality of how people treat each other. I see posters that registered in 2004 that have been BD'd multiple times, who's spouse cheats on them repeatedly. I am not going to put up with that. It's absolutely not ok. You know by now I'm all for standing for M, but there is a big line crossed with adultery that defiles the M. It is so destructive that it cannot be tolerated. I'm not suggesting that everyone should automatically file D and never look back. But I cannot live a life where I am betrayed repeatedly. Either I find ONE partner who wants ONE partner in return, who is committed, who values the M as much as I...or I will play solo, raise my kids, set records at work, and have fun with my few close male friends that I love and respect.
I do have plenty of my own growth to do, on my own. I am still angry about this betrayal. I am angry that STBX would make this decision. I am angry that society endorses these attitudes. I am angry that I don't get to live full time with my children, and that STBX is so warped she can't see past superficial problems and understand I was her gift from God. But while I believe these are truly horrible tragedies, it would be equally horrible for me to not be able to let go of my anger. So that is what my journey is about. Reducing my sensitivity, easing my pain, so in turn I can relax my anger...without degrading my beliefs and standards that drive me and make me who I am.
Zues, there are so many conversations I'd love to have with you because I can't adequately address them in a post. So I'll just say, for now anyway, that I feel your intensity and pain. And I hope you get some relief from that this weekend. I hope you have some lovely plans.
Thanks Sunny. I feel better having that out on virtual paper. I appreciate you guys reading these long posts. Check in with you later!
Zues, I've read back over your post a couple more times, and I can't help but feel you've entirely missed my point about "kissing frogs". And I am apparently incapable of explaining it adequately in writing. So be it. That's not even the important point. The immediate thing to deal with is your anger. It's fine to be angry, it's destructive to live with it every day and let it eat you from the inside out. Clearly, you know this. I just want to wish you luck in your journey.
I get it, Zeus. I carry a lot of the same anger and dread of meeting the next partner that'll run through my life shallow and destroying everything I thought we worked for.
Maybe you weren't God's gift to her, in the end, or in her mind. But, I think that whether you believe in marriage as sacred in a religious sense, or profound in the promise (aside from religion) - as long as the person that you made that promise to is willing to do anything in their power to work on the relationship, it's absolute chit to shrug and walk away.
I think we're all with you on the frustration that society seems to say more and more that M is just as easy as any other R to break up from when it's not 'working' for someone anymore.
How does that sayings go? Nothing will work unless you do.
I know that in time we'll all get a little less bitter, but it's not a bad thing to be honest about it and to truly feel it, not try to sweep it away or pretend it's not there.
Can you say you have a goal where your anger is concerned? When will you know it is destructive and no longer helpful to you? In the future someday, how do you hope to be able to regard this stage of your life, when it isn't raw?
Zues, I've read back over your post a couple more times, and I can't help but feel you've entirely missed my point about "kissing frogs". And I am apparently incapable of explaining it adequately in writing. So be it. That's not even the important point. The immediate thing to deal with is your anger. It's fine to be angry, it's destructive to live with it every day and let it eat you from the inside out. Clearly, you know this. I just want to wish you luck in your journey.
Sorry Sunny, I know it's frustrating to be misunderstood and have your words twisted. I'm apologizing because I know I'm so wound up about this I'm sure I'm misinterpreting this and going off the deep end. I'll settle down and reread what you're posting. Thanks for being patient.
Zelda, as for my plan of dealing with my anger, it basically has two parts.
Things I'm angry about that I can control: This I can deal with. Anger can be a healthy motivator for me, it's what drives me to pull my crap together, get things done, and being the person I want to be. All of that can be a good thing. That said, of course I don't want to make it sound like I want to be walking around constantly irate. That isn't the case. I think for the most part I can be pretty centered emotionally, and just fire up the burners when I catch myself going off track. In the past I was abusive towards myself, the last few years I'm trying to do the 'steering' without the 'beating' and I've been doing much better. So I guess I could replace the word 'anger' with the word 'passion'. It's a process that I am continuing to be aware of.
Things I'm angry about that I can't control: I am using this as a compass to show me where I need to grow. There is not much good in my mind that comes from being angry about things outside of myself. STBX, society, or the migration patterns of the birds overhead. Instead of sweeping this under the rug though I am validating my emotions, but equally trying to understand what it is about the world being the way it is that triggers me. It doesn't take much detective work to realize that my anger is triggered from fear and insecurity. For example, taking personal offense to society's lax view on commitment could indicate that I'm not secure with who I am by myself, that I feel I need someone else to be ok, and that without the aid of societal pressure on my partner they won't stay by my side...and that touches on my own insecurities which is already a sensitive spot as I push myself so ruthlessly and already struggle with feelings of disdain for myself at times. To conclude I know it is easier to be angry at the world than to deal with my own problems, so when I find myself being angry at the outside world I know it is time to take a look in the mirror and start dealing with my way of thinking.
This is just a rough plan obviously because I'm actually supposed to be working, just wanted to reply and let you all know I appreciate the help. You have all been very supportive while still challenging me to keep on the right path. What's really awesome is that as you get to know me over the months it has been even more beneficial, as you can recognize patterns and I feel genuine compassion from the feedback. Thank you all and peace to you.
Sorry Sunny, I know it's frustrating to be misunderstood and have your words twisted. I'm apologizing because I know I'm so wound up about this I'm sure I'm misinterpreting this and going off the deep end. I'll settle down and reread what you're posting. Thanks for being patient
That's really sweet, Zues, thanks for saying it. But it's totally not necessary. I'd much rather you have a fun relaxing start to your weekend than read my old posts.
Any plans?
Not much going on this weekend. My next weekend without children I'm playing a pool tournament. This weekend is pretty meh.
My plans are to get a few things done around my apartment, cook a little breakfast in bed and watch some chess matches online, clean my kitchen, then I'm going to go shoot some pool for a bit. I haven't played in a month, which is a universe different. My entire life I played hours a day so this is as close to quitting the game as I've ever come. But these days I'm pouring all of my competitive juices into work. Anyway, after I'm done playing pool I might catch a movie with a buddy and grab a bite out. Then read and hang out Sunday, finally getting ready for a good start to September.
Pretty laid back, but that's perfect. Trust me, my intensity is about 30% of what it used to be. Having weekends that are somewhat laid back is a lot of growth for me. I'm no longer running a million miles an hour and keeping my mind busy all of the time to drown out negative feelings. Now I'm ok just enjoying what's in front of me, even if that's just chilling on DB forums and reading a good book.
Speaking of books (yes, I am that guy that introduces a topic I want to talk about and then acts like we were speaking about it already) I am having a BLAST reading to my children. I have already picked out the next book I'm going to read to them, and it's the FIRST real adult length novel. Ender's Game. It's a very easy read, and very engaging, and I think my kids will love it even if I have to go slowly at times and explain a few things. I can't WAIT to get started. In fact, I took next Friday off of work and STBX agreed I could pick them up and have them the extra day, so that gives me time to get them into it! I can't wait until next Friday when we get started!!!
OK, I'd say have a great weekend but clearly I'm going to be trolling all night, so instead I'll say talk to you soon.
Sounds like a great weekend Zues, enjoy the (censored) out of the time you have to yourself. One of the hardest parts for those of us that are a bit type-A is to learn to simply enjoy time.
Enjoy it. Do whatever makes you happy. Read, relax, recharge, review your work goals, have fun.
Sounds like your kids are equally as fired up to have you read to them, and THAT is awesome.
Stay strong my friend, don't be hard on yourself or feel the need to accomplish anything this weekend, it's a beautiful one.
Thanks for stopping by my thread earlier too. I appreciate your thoughts.
Big hug,
PP
cook a little breakfast in bed.....
Um....that sounds dangerous! Low key weekends are needed sometimes to refuel. Enjoy the weekend with your kids!!
cook a little breakfast in bed.....
Um....that sounds dangerous! !
That sounds great..
cook a little breakfast in bed.....
Um....that sounds dangerous! !
That sounds great..
I was rather disappointed that no one showed up with any breakfast this morning.
Hey Zeus. I knew someone who described himself very much as you do. I know you say you are not like " all of us". But all of us aren't like all of us too. Each individual is set apart from the rest of the world in our own ways. There is a million people who are in the world who are the same, and then you.
Intensity can be very useful in our life. But we must strike a balance with it. And as much as we shouldn't care about what others think, we should be mindful of how that affects those who we love. I know you only want someone to accept you as you are, which is exactly where anyone's standards should be. But I am wondering if your intensity and your view of the way things should be done and how life should be liived might have affected your W? Sometimes all that pressure we put on ourselves is absorbed by the people who love us and care for us the most. Could this possibly happened in your M?
You mentioned something about how you don't believe life shouldn't be "pissed" away? What exactly does that mean for you? Of course we want to make our one life have the most meaning and impact. We forget to live in the moment and understand there is true meaning in everything we do, even in the mistakes we make.
I personally live humble life. I was never the "best" at anything. But I make my impact in different ways. And I am also very very hard on myself at times. While I always try to be my best, I do watch out about what the cost of achieving my goals is. I may not be explaining it right. It I hope you see what I'm saying.
Just be wary of feeling like you are in this totally different realm of the masses. Every individual is different in their own ways, and also very much the same. When we start to feel like everyone else is the same and we are a completely different being, we isolate ourselves without even knowing it. And that can get lonely and kind of scary.
Enjoy your breakfast in bed and your laid back day.
And I can't edit, I hate that. The last line in the first paragraph is supposed to read " there aren't a million people in the world who are the same and then you"
Hey Ginger, I got what you meant. I'll start by answering your questions. Not pissing away my life means I give my all every day. I wake up with a big tank of fuel filled by my excitement to be here, enthusiasm to do what I love, and passion to use my gifts and strive to overcome challenges and strive towards goals. I would say I have childlike enthusiasm, and a very high energy level. Then, like a good workout, I enjoy feeling spent at the end of the day, knowing I gave my all. I feel satisfied knowing I spent everything I had, then I reward myself with some time to recuperate.
This isn't absolutely every day, I try to build some time in for R&R. This doesn't mean I am not in the present. This doesn't mean I'm not capable of smelling the roses, enjoying the conversations with someone at a convenience store, or pausing for a moment to watch a dog running around a yard and having fun. I am actually very still often times.
I don't pretend to be humble but don't feel conceited either. What I mean is that most people that are like me think they walk on holier ground than others. Many people that have achieved the success I have think they are better, that other people are in a lower class, etc. I've never thought that or felt that. I don't feel conceited because to me being #1 at whatever I do by a wide margin doesn't make me special- just different. I don't do this to validate myself, or bolster my self worth, or try to gain admiration. I just don't like doing a bad job, and when I do what I consider a good job I guess it looks different than when other people do it.
But not only does that not make me better, for a long time I've felt it's made me defective. I struggled in my M, I was a poor father for years, and clearly I have had issues with balance in the past. I feel I've overcome those issues (at least compared to where I used to be), but I know I'll evolve more over the next 10-20-30 years as well. I've learned a lot about the cost of different goals, which is why I'm on this forum instead of winning a world championship somewhere. I let that stuff go and am pursuing things that mean more to me.
Wonka asked me the same question about the impact on my W, here is what I replied: You nailed it though when you said my "intimate relationships" may have suffered. See, when people get TOO close to me I start identifying with them. Sometimes I catch myself applying my own personal standards to them. THAT'S not OK. The only times I've ever been frustrated with my best friend was when I started treating him how I treat myself. The only time I've been angry with my children is when I talk to them in the voice I talk to myself with. It's not angry...it's not scary...it's intense like 10,000 suns...the unwillingness to accept any outcome but victory, that any obstacle in between me and the win is in as much danger as someone between a mother bear and her cubs...And, during my M, I know I allowed my W to feel my full intensity at times.
I know I've grown in this area. I've been more aware of it. This is best monitored by how I am with my children. I am more in the moment. I honor who they are as people. I recognize they are at different points in their lives with their own views, and I accept that they have their own story which is just as legitimate as mine. So I know I've come a long ways.
In rereading your post I basically see some cautions about being out of balance, the impact on others around me, having a bloated sense of importance that can stunt growth, and having an attitude that I'm over here and everyone else is over there as those differences aren't always very important compared to the humanity we all share. All legitimate. I can see why anyone would be put off by me.
I don't mean to dismiss what you're saying because I think it's all spot on. I just feel I've been working on these things and have made great strides in these areas compared to where I was at the age of 18, 25, 30, and even in this last year. But I also used to have so much disdain for myself that I was perpetually suicidal and driven to a level 100 times past insanity. So for me maybe the biggest growth is to accept my imperfections. And the hardest balance for me is to see where I can continue to improve without feeling like the person I am is broken. I am still wrestling with this and I know it makes me defensive. You can rest assured that your words- even if you spoke carefully, and even if I seem combative- have registered and I will continue to live with them. Thanks for being gracious about it.
There were other ways I hurt my M with my intensity.
Basically for years it was a lot about running from the demons of inadequacy. I tended to stick to things that were black and white. Pool. Sales. Math. Very clear cut. Right or wrong. This 'protected' me from doubt. I also shut away my emotions and ran from them, using focus and driving to distract myself. Finally I looked for constant assurance from STBX that I was 'good enough', because I didn't feel good enough.
The biggest part of my journey is accepting that I screwed up in some ways, and that we all are, and that it's ok. This means I can try things that I'm not good at, make mistakes, and still be where I am and not look for others to fix me.
Hi Zues...
I believe that those of us who have suffered the demons of self loathing, perfectionism and thoughts of self harm, but also the alternative extreme of happy obsession, and intense love, our black and white or all or nothing thinking, is challenging for others to understand. The vulnerability we feel in the world is significant, we are exposed. We are constantly exposed like a raw nerve on a burn victim, some days the mere air upon skin is beyond pain.
There are times Zues when reading your posts I am so attuned to the pain and brilliance you experience of yourself and life. I see and feel the struggle at times you experience. I want to reach out so often to challenge you to let go and love and live, in an easier way. But I don't because I know some days that task seems near impossible.
Today I have felt my separateness from others and how they see and experience the world with so much greater ease then myself. Today has been a trial. Finding balance in a black and white world is challenging.
If I have over identified your internal sitch to my own, my apologies. I remain as always in admiration of the integrity with which you have moved through your sitch. I am also so happy to see others here on the board, who with such,wisdom, kindness and intellect, challenge you to be your best version of yourself,
such blessings
XxxJellyb
I believe that those of us who have suffered the demons of self loathing, perfectionism and thoughts of self harm, but also the alternative extreme of happy obsession, and intense love, our black and white or all or nothing thinking, is challenging for others to understand. The vulnerability we feel in the world is significant, we are exposed. We are constantly exposed like a raw nerve on a burn victim, some days the mere air upon skin is beyond pain.
Agreed Jelly. You know, in this thread there's been discussion about what we want from a partner. One of the reasons I've had such minimal standards (i.e. someone that won't leave me) and that I've been so outraged by the lack of commitment in the world is that I have a deep abiding belief that there's something wrong with me and no one would ever want anything to do with me.
Now, people can scoff...but this isn't just me. Imagine a woman that was 600 lbs and had a hairy chin. She might feel defeated by the idea of love. She wouldn't dare ask a man out because she'd feel like it's not just one man that has rejected her, society has rejected her, and she just doesn't fit the mold of someone deserving of love. She would potentially just dream of any partner, and be sadly resigned to the idea that women like her just weren't good enough. And you know what? People might challenge that, but it's also true that most men WOULD run from her, and judge her, and want nothing to do with her. This isn't a fairy tale world we live in. We preach equality and openmindedness and inner beauty in first grade, but most people don't live it.
I feel the same as this hypothetical woman. I just got back from some shopping, there were a number of attractive women there. Every time a woman made eye contact with me I quickly looked away, as if I was apologetic for daring to meet their eyes. I feel undeserving of anyone.
Again, these forums can sit here and challenge this. Logically I don't agree with my feelings. I know I bring a lot, but a pep talk or 'quality list' doesn't change how I feel. I've felt this way my entire life and I doubt it will ever change.
What has changed is I don't care as much about it. I have accepted this. It is what it is. Everyone has a place in this world, not everyone can be the alpha male. Again, it's interesting that in so many areas of my life I am the man on campus. My low self worth is limited ONLY to women, outside of this I believe I am the incredible hulk. For some reason I just don't think it matters. Like the lyrics from John Lennon:
My mother was of the sky
My father was of the earth
I am of the universe
and you know what it's worth
I'm lonely...gonna die...
Doesn't matter that I'm a child of God's, or what I do.
So rather than fight it, I'm just accepting it.
And the funny thing is I don't think this means I can't have a good M someday. I think it's possible that a woman would see beyond "hm, he doesn't seem to think he's a catch, I guess that means I could do better for myself" and instead build a M on who I am and what I bring, I think it can work out.
I really disagree with the idea that there is one way to be, and that we all must grow and get there to find our happiness. I will continue to be a flawed individual, with insecurities that I may never conquer, thank you very much.
But to your last point Jelly, by accepting this about myself I have actually been much happier, and the pain has subsided. The raw nerves aren't there much anymore. I am feeling healthier and happier, and more stable. Not depressed at all. In fact, this is probably the happiest I've ever been. So for all those that would like to see me continue to grow, relaxing my perfectionism and self loathing and accepting my flaws (instead of trying to be this perfect person) has been the biggest change I've made in my life. I was scared for a while because I felt that was my identity, that if I lost my perfectionism I'd be 'ordinary', lose my talents and passion, and lose myself. But not to worry...I was so intense that even when I have reduced my intensity level by 95% I am still at the top of that bell curve. Feel free to think I'm joking
So thank you JB. It's really all good.
Ah you forget Zues I was the 600lb woman (actually I was over 300lbs) no hairy chin though! And you have summed up my experience beautifully!
And Zues some days you sound less comfortable with yourself than others. Some days reading your posts its like reading a battle, one you are having with yourself.
It is interesting to read, as I now understand people's perceptions of me as I experience my depression. I have come to hate and love my sweet sadness. When I speak of my life in terms of the depression, and how it is overtaken and undermined my life choices and happiness at times. People feel that I have been in a constant state of sadness and overwhelm and that is just not the case. I am often better than people think and I am more resilent and resourceful than I give the impression to others (and to myself at times). I do hear what you are saying Zues.
JellyB XXX
Jelly, I didn't forget. I went to 600 lbs with a wart for a reason...my first R was with a woman that was 300lbs and it didn't bother me a bit. I had to go further to find a figure that seemed more extreme for this reason, and even then I'm not saying *I* would reject that person, only that she would (rightly) feel SOCIETY had.
In fact, she left me for reasons just discussed on your thread...she felt she wasn't enough for me. Since this is 2/2 relationships is it on me, that I'm 'making women feeling this way'? Anymore I don't think so. I think I need a woman that is ok with me being open and honest about who I am without feeling threatened by it (or that is willing to spend her life pretending to be fine with it without me knowing of her pain). And for those women who would feel threatened, I have to believe there's a guy that either really has diminished desire (or that would act like it for the rest of his life in the name of M).
Wow, I feel I'm opening myself up for a lot of being blasted...but then again maybe that's just me being me, afraid that if I drop the mask I'll once again be condemned. But I'm done. This is who I am. If everyone in the world rejects me I will continue to read stories to my children, crush it at work, and play some good pool now and then
Love you all.
PS- edited to add, to me a woman that would accept me and my heart and partner with me to navigate through life- I would embrace her, regardless of her looks...much rather than a fashion model that was put off by the fact that she couldn't change how my brain shouts at me all day...
Then again my friend 'wears a mask' and is relatively happily married...maybe I should bite the bullet and do that in the name of accepting reality and not being unrealistic about what M can bring...as I mentioned I'm 0/2 and obviously this I feel flawed about it, and obviously I have reason to as women don't care for it...maybe this is what it means to be a good husband and no one ever told me that white lies were the oil that made the M machine work.
There is no one woman, no matter how desirable, that would satisfy the desire in my heart.
If women believe my desire is insulting or critical to them and feel rejected and diminished, we're not going to be a good couple.
Again- my dream would be to find a partner that doesn't take my desires and needs as hurtful, but instead accepts me, appreciates that I don't act on them, and makes them part of the marital priorities along with her desires and needs. I long to have that kind of truth and intimacy, and mutual effectiveness.
Zues, I brought this over from JB's thread so as not to hijack, but I have a couple questions for you.....
I get the impression here that no woman, regardless of her desire, is enough for you, but you are willing to put up with that. Is that because you have never met a woman with equal desire, and possibly think they don't exist, or is it just that you are never going to be satisfied with one woman, period.
I personally can't imagine a better scenario than a man who wants me, for me, and if that's intense, so much the better. A physical relationship as a expression of being wanted is a powerful thing. I do have a problem with a man who wants sex, period, but doesn't particularly want ME, but is willing to be faithful to me just to be a good guy.
I spent the last few years of my M rather frustrated, the last few month before BD very frustrated, I just didn't know why. A high drive would be on my list of an ideal partner, but not if I think that it's not about me. Am I way out of bounds here? Does that get filed with rainbows and unicorns?
It depends on what you mean by being satisfied.
I don't know that there will be a woman that quenches my desire so I no longer have lust in my heart all day long.
However I wouldn't be settling for a woman 'just to have sex with someone'. I would be longing for a woman that could understand and accept that about me.
In other words, a woman that understands she can't fulfill my every desire, but accepts that, even celebrates that part of me, recognizes how important it is to me, and tries to fulfill what she could...that WOULD fulfill my every desire.
I don't know that there will be a woman that quenches my desire so I no longer have lust in my heart all day long.
I don't see that as a real goal anyway. I want my man to have been thinking about me all day, ready for some fun when we both get home. But there's a big difference between that and coming home to a guy who sees me as convenient.
Thanks for being transparent, Zues. I suppose truth is, it doesn't matter. I'm not sure either of us are really going to get what we are after here.
Well, hold on Sunny...maybe I didn't explain myself well. (also, not sure what you meant by not getting what we're after, I'm enjoying the conversation...maybe that's my fear of rejection speaking :)).
When I was M...every time I saw another attractive woman, I felt desire...but it made me long for my W. Every time I saw a commercial that used a sexy model...I wanted to be with my W.
She was the one I wanted to understand me. She was the one that I wanted to fulfill my needs with. And she is absolutely the one I thought of all day.
Again, we can all feel differently, just wanted to try to clarify because it is a little nuanced.
Sorry, I didn't mean to shut down the conversation. I just sometimes feel like this is not a topic a nice Southern girl is supposed to be talking about.
When I was M...every time I saw another attractive woman, I felt desire...but it made me long for my W. Every time I saw a commercial that used a sexy model...I wanted to be with my W.
She was the one I wanted to understand me. She was the one that I wanted to fulfill my needs with. And she is absolutely the one I thought of all day.
You explained this perfectly. And see it as the way a M is supposed to work. I can't imagine any woman being offended by that.
What I meant by not getting what I am after is...well, my STBX thought our sex life was great, but I want something different next time around. And I'm not sure it's available. I think I'm probably being rather unrealistic.
Got it. I appreciate you validating that what I've said is reasonable, but do agree there is a time and a place for this type of discussion as well. I think this is about as far down this road we should go in a DB forum. Like you I have some things I desire different, and I'm not sure it's available. Especially since Alligators don't even live up here.
The whole topic came up as more of an example of that very question- unicorns and rainbows and unrealistic, or are we settling if we accept anything less. As I've said, not an easy thing to understand, especially since feelings and longings seem so TRUE.
I'm very sorry, I started this. I should know better, I'm not 22. Glad you started a new thread, time for this one to drift to a back page. #alligatorsforever