Ok. So we officially have established that I am the worst DBer ever. Keep throwing the advice guys because you are all right and I am handling this as badly as I can.
I think we have a clearer picture of my sitch: She lost all love for me due to the depression and lost all trust for me and that has been replaced by hate because of my EA last year. It doesn't matter why I did it. It doesn't matter that my depression was an illness. It's pretty obvious that she doesn't have anything on the side and I don't even want to talk about that any more.
This is so difficult for me guys. My mental makeup makes me my own worst enemy.
So now that we know that I've been barking up the wrong tree and that the biggest uphill battle is trust what do I do?
I've seen: Stop snooping. Stop Temp Check. Fight anxiety. DB my butt off for 90 days and reassess.
Does my approach change with her still harboring so much anger about what I did last year?
And I don't mind you guys piling on....I deserve it. I suck at this. My kids keep asking when I'm coming home. I've been out of the house for over 6 months. Got the rug pulled out from under me when I was supposed to be home 3 months ago.
Wife doesn't see ANY of what she contributed to all of this (which in truth is a lot).
Lay it on me guys. You guys are my rock right now.
3rd thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2568283#Post25682832nd thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2565571#Post2565571First thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2561056#Post2561056
I'm not a vet BE, they'll probably chime in with better advice.
Here's some advice from a relative rookie that's been doing a lot of reading on here:
Stop focusing on your past, and your W and start focusing on yourself. That's it. Everything other than you focusing on you is just noise. It won't help. Focusing on you will help.
Focusing on you is entirely independent of why or why not she's upset with you, how justified she may feel, or you may feel she should be, or how much she's contributed.
It's a hard shift to make, but make it. Start focusing on yourself and how you can be the best version of BEClem day in and day out.
When she sees consistent action on your part she may begin to trust you again. So show here consistent improvement. Every darn day.
I'd stop beating yourself up too. It won't help. If it would, we'd all have an easy route back to our spouses. You're going through an extremely tough situation and doing the best that you can.
I'm not a vet BE, they'll probably chime in with better advice.
Here's some advice from a relative rookie that's been doing a lot of reading on here:
Stop focusing on your past, and your W and start focusing on yourself. That's it. Everything other than you focusing on you is just noise. It won't help. Focusing on you will help.
Focusing on you is entirely independent of why or why not she's upset with you, how justified she may feel, or you may feel she should be, or how much she's contributed.
It's a hard shift to make, but make it. Start focusing on yourself and how you can be the best version of BEClem day in and day out.
When she sees consistent action on your part she may begin to trust you again. So show here consistent improvement. Every darn day.
Thanks Pig.
You're welcome, we're all in this together.
What's one thing you can do today or tomorrow to make YOU feel a little bit better about yourself?
Talk to my children. I can't see them on Friday's because of my work schedule.
Great BE! Do you have any hobbies? Goals that are outside of your M switch?
(my apologies if they're listed in a past thread)
Yes and I feel no interest in any of them. I'm a musician and a golfer. Not to pat my own back but I'm very good at both. Haven't touched music or a golf club in months.
I've tried but I just have no interest.
All I want to do is go home. I'm miserable.
All I do is work. Spend time with my kids (which I love) and spend all my free time on this forum and think about how I can get her back.
That is the truth. It is all I think about.
All I do is work. Spend time with my kids (which I love) and spend all my free time on this forum and think about how I can get her back.
That is the truth. It is all I think about.
I really think this is your problem. You have to start doing things for YOU. Your W fell in love with the musician, the golfer, the person you WERE. She's clearly NOT in love with the person you are now.
It's not selfish to start thinking about yourself. It's HEALTHY. You need to take up some hobbies - whether it's music, golf, knitting, or underwater basket weaving. SOMETHING. You need to detach from your W and get a life outside of her and your family.
This was the analogy that really struck me when I first got here - if you have something hanging on to your leg, you are going to shake your leg to get it off. What if the thing clings harder? You SHAKE harder. That's what's happening with you! Your wife tried to shake you, but you are clinging harder. So now she's SHAKING harder. Either way, this will end with you free of her leg - but if you do this right and follow the process, she may decide to pick you up later.
Stop planning on how to get her back. She is going to come back because she wants to come back. You can't prod her... beg her... plead with her... Well, you could but it would be pointless and counterproductive.
Work on you. Work on your mental image of yourself. Work to be the man you want to be. Be the best Dad you can. Be the man that only a fool would want to leave.
Quit beating yourself up. That's our job, dammit!
Yea BE, start DOING something. You just named two.
Do them, even if you do them thinking about how awful your situation is. It will help.
I've cried multiple times in the surf looking like a complete idiot. Then I'd catch a wave and forget about my W for .00008 of a second. Then the next time it was 1 second. Then it was a minute. Then it was 4 minutes.
That's 4 minutes longer than before I paddled out and I'll take it.
Hey BEC.
You must realize that what you are going through is what we have all gone through. In the beginning of DB'ing we all acted much the same. The term backslide is universal because we all universally do it.
You have been here a month. Many of us have been here for at least 6 months. DB takes time to learn and you are trying to rush through.
So we start again. Because each time you fall back you find your way to the DB path a little wiser, a little stronger. There is no other way around the learning curve.
DB'ing is about you. Your efforts in DB have been about her.
Let's go back to the principles.
GAL
Detach
180
Rethink based on your 1 month of DB experience, backslides and all, what the above 3 are.
For GAL, what one thing can you do that is "creative".
Detach. Let's reframe this. Let go of her BEC. What do you need to let her go?
180. One app that I recommend is called Headspace. It's meditation. I challenge you to do it for 10 days straight.
The above are suggestions. Do you journal BEC? You may want to consider it. The forum is your active resource here BEC.
And lay off the self judgement and let go of yourself.
You guys are the best. Man this place is a haven.
I'm going to try and sleep. Tomorrow is a new day and an opportunity for a fresh start. I have trouble looking ahead and saying "Sh*t, I can't do this for 3 months or 6 months or a year or whatever". But I think I can start fresh tomorrow and literally take it one day at a time.
If I can reach little one day goals they will start to add up.
Tomorrow is work. Don't contact W. FaceTime kids. Work second job. Sleep. Those are tomorrows goals.
I'll check in tomorrow guys. Thanks again.
This is so difficult for me guys. My mental makeup makes me my own worst enemy.
YES
I love everyone's advice to focus on your self.
Also did you ever think that maybe your wife is depressed?
And use your knowledge of what you did to see that she may be doing the same thing?
I see it quite clearly.
Absolutely with the day by day thing. Thinking ahead in months probably doesn't help. But thinking of tomorrow and the weekend is perfect. And next week will take care of itself when it arrives. No need to think that far ahead yet.....you can do this.....:-)
BE:
I know exactly how your wife feels. My H had an EA and a physical affair. Trust?? It will be awhile for your wife to trust you again. Trust is not given, it is earned. My H's EA happened 5 years ago and his PA happened 4 years ago. Do I trust him today? NO, because he hasn't earned it. Does he suffer from depression? Yes. But did he do anything about that? No.
My D ask us each week, when can Daddy move back home? I just reply, honey we are working on it. But I want to say, Mommy is working on because I don't see anything he has done.
Get the appropriate help for your depression, seek IC and just focus on yourself. Be transparent with her.
This is so difficult for me guys. My mental makeup makes me my own worst enemy.
YES
I love everyone's advice to focus on your self.
Also did you ever think that maybe your wife is depressed?
And use your knowledge of what you did to see that she may be doing the same thing?
I see it quite clearly.
Cadet what do you see clearly? That she is depressed and having knowledge of what I did and how I acted during my depression to see that she may be doing the same thing: shutting herself off from me etc.....
BE:
I know exactly how your wife feels. My H had an EA and a physical affair. Trust?? It will be awhile for your wife to trust you again. Trust is not given, it is earned. My H's EA happened 5 years ago and his PA happened 4 years ago. Do I trust him today? NO, because he hasn't earned it. Does he suffer from depression? Yes. But did he do anything about that? No.
My D ask us each week, when can Daddy move back home? I just reply, honey we are working on it. But I want to say, Mommy is working on because I don't see anything he has done.
Get the appropriate help for your depression, seek IC and just focus on yourself. Be transparent with her.
Hope. I'm not a dishonest man. I know what I did was wrong but it was so short lived and I stopped it on my own accord before it ever went "all the way". It literally lasted a week or two with only two meet ups. There was some physical contact but no sex.
This is no excuse but I'm stating facts: I had been trying to reconcile and be closer to my W for more than a year leading up to what I did. I wanted HER. She hadn't had intercourse with me for over 2 years at that point. We would occasionally do "other things" (I'll leave that G rated) but it would be "obligatory" on her part. She would hit me if I tried to touch her during those times. Yell at me....etc.
I'm a good man. I was an excellent husband for a long time and am ready to be one again. Her current reality is not the full truth but I understand that it is her reality and nothing I say can change that.
Hope. I love her. I want her to realize that I am not who she thinks I am.
I want to be transparent with her. I just don't know how I do this. It's frustrating because there was so much she did in her treatment of me throughout our entire relationship that so many people close to our situation have seen.
I'm not the sole "bad guy" here but that is the "reality" I have to work in.
I just don't know how the heck to be successful. I'd really like your continued input and advice because you are on the other side of the coin. Please share with me if you were my W, what would you be looking for? What would be the most effective things I can do.
I'm not faking this: it's genuine.
Absolutely with the day by day thing. Thinking ahead in months probably doesn't help. But thinking of tomorrow and the weekend is perfect. And next week will take care of itself when it arrives. No need to think that far ahead yet.....you can do this.....:-)
Thank you Toots. I have to take it one day at a time. That's the only way I can mentally do this.
Any advice from ladies out there who have been on the other end would be greatly appreciated. I'm not dishonest. I know what I did but there was so much more that led up to that. So many circumstances that both of us contributed to.
I need to regain her trust. That has to be step one for me. I swear that I'm being genuine. My depression is under control. I take meds. I'm not in a mental fog.
J
BE:
I know exactly how your wife feels. My H had an EA and a physical affair. Trust?? It will be awhile for your wife to trust you again. Trust is not given, it is earned. My H's EA happened 5 years ago and his PA happened 4 years ago. Do I trust him today? NO, because he hasn't earned it. Does he suffer from depression? Yes. But did he do anything about that? No.
My D ask us each week, when can Daddy move back home? I just reply, honey we are working on it. But I want to say, Mommy is working on because I don't see anything he has done.
Get the appropriate help for your depression, seek IC and just focus on yourself. Be transparent with her.
Hope. I love her. I want her to realize that I am not who she thinks I am.
Then stop BEING who she thinks you are. She doesn't want to be told that you're not that guy. She wants to SEE that you're not that guy. And she wants to see it CONSISTENTLY. You can't not be that guy for a week, say "look, I'm changed" and expect her to buy it.
I love everyone's advice to focus on your self.
Also did you ever think that maybe your wife is depressed?
And use your knowledge of what you did to see that she may be doing the same thing?
I see it quite clearly.
Cadet what do you see clearly?
That she is depressed and having knowledge of what I did and how I acted during my depression to see that she may be doing the same thing: shutting herself off from me etc..... YES
I love everyone's advice to focus on your self.
Also did you ever think that maybe your wife is depressed?
And use your knowledge of what you did to see that she may be doing the same thing?
I see it quite clearly.
Cadet what do you see clearly?
That she is depressed and having knowledge of what I did and how I acted during my depression to see that she may be doing the same thing: shutting herself off from me etc..... YES
Ok. So you are seeing quite clearly that she is experiencing depression.
You've been give excellent advice by all. Dbing isn't about winning your wife back. It's a tool that will help YOU. It's used every day in the world around you and yes, it can help you become a better person if you don't rush the process.
Keep the focus on YOU and your children. The more you focus on your wife, the less time you have to focus on you and those things that you need to do to help you regain your strength and appeal. This is YOUR time to work on those hobbies and projects that you've left sitting in the dark corner.
Trust is earned, not a given. The snooping was another deal breaker w/her and until you stop doing that and watching her every move, she's going to consider you a shady man. She knows you love her...that's a given, so you don't need to tell her that all of the time. What you do need to do is show her that you can live your life with or without her in it. Show her that you can carry on and do things w/your children with or without her participating. Take the kids out for ice cream or a hike. Start doing some fun things w/them now that summer is almost here. Get back to doing the things that you use to love to do. I understand you don't feel like doing them...but it's one step at a time here and even if you take a hike, that's a start.
Newbies come here and live on the forum. That's not getting a life. There comes a time when you need to carve out some "me" time and get w/it in the real world. Set aside some time for here and take the rest of the time to start going out into the real world. You need to around other humans some to alleviate that anxiety. Too much alone time isn't good for anyone.
Actions speak louder than words. Start living your life for YOU. When you become a more relaxed, confident and contented man, you will become more attractive to your wife. One thing you do need to remember, DBing is for YOU. It doesn't work quickly and it does take time for you or anyone else to master detachment and GAL. What has happened in your family will not be repaired in a week, a month or possible 6 months. It took a while to get where it is today, therefore it is going to take a while to repair it, if you follow the 37 steps that Sandi has out there as well as try not rush the process.
Keep the focus on YOU.
P.S. We all make mistakes and have backslides...but if you learn from them, you will be ahead of the game the next time you are tempted to try them again.
Ok. So you are seeing quite clearly that she is experiencing depression.
Whether she is or isn't actually is not important,
you can not control that part of her.
YOU can only YOU.
Job just gave you great advice as has everyone else here.
If it helps you to focus on yourself to think she is depressed then use it, if not then don't.
Does that make sense?
If she is experiencing depression, that is for her to figure out. If you are thinking of telling her this...don't! She will not appreciate you trying to diagnose her problems. Like a drug addict or alcoholic, she will need to hit bottom and order to rise and that means, she will need to so bad that she will eventually seek professional help.
You have to remember that you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. You have absolutely no control over how she feels or what she does w/her life right now. You have to let her go and experience whatever she thinks she needs to do to heal herself. The only person you have control over is yourself and that's why we emphasize "keeping the focus on you".
So, my question to you today is: What are your plans for the holiday weekend? A hike, a drive, spending time w/your children? Maybe taking them out to McD's for dinner or pizza? It's time to start taking them out and away from the home so that she begins to question why she's not being invited. Why? How can she miss you if you are there? She can't. When something isn't work, try something new, i.e., start taking the kids out of the home for activities.
Had an ok day so far today. All the advice is spot on. I think that I have to accept that what she believes is her reality. That she is telling me the "truth" as she sees it.
I think trying to analyze it or trying to figure out if she is lying or what's going on is counterproductive. I've seen enough from her to finally realize that what she is telling me about everything is really how it is from her perspective.
That being said. I know that I am not a liar. I know I'm a good man. I'm a good father. I love my wife dearly and would give her the best years if she chooses to participate.
But that choice must be hers. I need to love her from a distance. Treat her kindly and with respect. Work on detaching and stop being co dependent. Continue to be the best man, father and husband I am capable of being and let her decide in her way and on her timeframe.
I'm having a hard time accepting all of this but there is no other way.
I need to make my behavior consistent for me. If she follows, that is on her.
Bad moment that I think I handled well. Called to FaceTime with kids. No answer. Wife texted me said that kids were at her aunts house. Her aunt got a new washer and dryer so my wife was transporting her aunts old washer and dryer to our house which she referred to as "my" house.
She told me that in the interest of open communication that her guy friend
was with her. This is the one I've been suspicious about but she swears it's just a friendship.
I called her. She was short with me. But I told her that I appreciated her letting me know that he was with her. That for me it is a dead issue. I believe her and trust her and have no concerns about him. That my only concerns are about us.
Then I spoke to my kids.
Afterward I got off the phone I called my mother (parents have been huge support structure for me) and cried my eyes out.
Friend or no friend.....this bothers me ALOT
The only good thing that I guess came out of this is that she openly communicated with me of her own free will that he was with her. And it gave me an opportunity to thank her for the open communication and to reinforce that I believe and trust her and that it is a non issue.
Do I trust her for real? I don't know guys. I just don't know.
But I didn't freak out. At least not that she saw.
Ok. I'll try again with an example:
Using words to show you trust your wife: calling her to say "I trust you"
Using actions to show you trust your wife: doing nothing and not bringing it up.
Here's the thing...IT DOESNT MATTER IN EITHER CASE IF YOU DO TRUST HER.
She will (and did) take choice A poorly.
She probably doesn't notice if you follow choice B - but do that choice regularly and she SEES that you trust her.
So I guess I was able to somewhat implement a hard lesson I've learned so far. I've pressed her about this friend 4 or 5 times. I got caught snooping. She has told me time and time again that there is nothing going on. And when she confronted me about going through her stuff yesterday she even said "As each day passes my feelings of giving you a chance become less and less. Even though I have told you time and again that there is no one else" etc....
So going down that tunnel is a loss for me. So at least tonight when she told me he was with her I didn't freak.....yes I did call her....but I chose my words carefully.
I want her to trust me again. I want to believe that everything she is telling me...about why she wants a divorce.....about not having any outside relationships.....about her loss of love for me and loss of trust for me due to my depression and my EA.....I want to believe that all of this is the truth.
I think it's the only way I can mentally approach it and have a chance of being successful.
Ok. I'll try again with an example:
Using words to show you trust your wife: calling her to say "I trust you"
Using actions to show you trust your wife: doing nothing and not bringing it up.
Here's the thing...IT DOESNT MATTER IN EITHER CASE IF YOU DO TRUST HER.
She will (and did) take choice A poorly.
She probably doesn't notice if you follow choice B - but do that choice regularly and she SEES that you trust her.
Got it Matt. So the better choice would have been when she texted me and told what she was doing, that he was with her, and that she'd have the kids call me when she got back to her aunts house, I should have just responded via text "ok". And left it at that.
That would have been the better choice?
I'm learning here guys. Today was better than the last time when I flipped. Next time I need to handle it perfectly....and everytime going forward.
I honestly think it's all in my head.
One thing that makes this all very difficult for me is that outside observers who are close to the situation and have observed our R from the beginning think she is manipulating me.
There are many who are of the opinion that she is mentally unstable and basically beat the mental crap out of me for 8 years until I finally snapped and went in the tank with depression.
So I'm having trouble processing fact from perception.
I want her to trust me again. I want to believe that everything she is telling me...about why she wants a divorce.....about not having any outside relationships.....about her loss of love for me and loss of trust for me due to my depression and my EA.....I want to believe that all of this is the truth.
I think it's the only way I can mentally approach it and have a chance of being successful.
Honestly, you can believe whatever you want. For me, I know that am committed to my M, regardless of whether my W is in an A right now, so it's easier for me to believe that now and possibly be surprised positively later. If you need to believe TE other way to get through the day, fine.
But as I said above, what you believe your W to be doing right now only matters if there are things you can't forgive. Since you can't control her and can't control her actions, you MUST control how you present yourself to her. To show her that you've changed, you MUST do it with your actions.
YOU CANNOT TELL HER YOU HAVE CHANGED.
YOU HAVE TO CHANGE FOR YOURSELF AND WAIT FOR HER TO NOTICE IT.
Ok. I'll try again with an example:
Using words to show you trust your wife: calling her to say "I trust you"
Using actions to show you trust your wife: doing nothing and not bringing it up.
Here's the thing...IT DOESNT MATTER IN EITHER CASE IF YOU DO TRUST HER.
She will (and did) take choice A poorly.
She probably doesn't notice if you follow choice B - but do that choice regularly and she SEES that you trust her.
Got it Matt. So the better choice would have been when she texted me and told what she was doing, that he was with her, and that she'd have the kids call me when she got back to her aunts house, I should have just responded via text "ok". And left it at that.
That would have been the better choice?
I'm learning here guys. Today was better than the last time when I flipped. Next time I need to handle it perfectly....and everytime going forward.
I honestly think it's all in my head.
I'm not sure that text needed a reply.
Look, I'm still learning here too. I've only been at this a month, and my wife is probably in an affair and is heading full steam into a divorce.
But you know what? IM doing ok. I was crushed...crushed at BD. I moped for a month. Now, I've made some changes and am continuing to make more. For ME. And every day, I feel better, more confident, stronger, and I know I'm becoming the man I should have always been. I've reached the point now where I WANT my W to come back, but I don't NEED her to come back. I've proven to myself that I can live without her, and live HAPPILY.
That's why I keep writing to you. Because I want to share what I've learned and how it's helped me. I've only been doing this a month, and I've learned so much about myself and who I want to become. And that's what I want for you. And everyone here.
You cannot move forward with yourself until you start to let go. You have to give her the space to live her life so you can live your life. And if you and I do that, I know there's a good chance our wives will return. But. Even if they don't, we can be better, happier, stronger men, fathers, and husbands in the future for whoever we choose.
Matt you are a good man. May I ask if your daughters are with you? Or we're you asked to leave the home like me? My kids are similar in age to yours: S6 and D2.
By the way: I made a good choice on my way home from work. My house (which she now refers to as hers even though it is my sisters home that we rent from her and I am the sole income earner and pay for everything) is in the same neighborhood as my parents house where I am staying.
I almost drive by my house. But I did not.
BEC -
right now, my wife and I are taking turns in our house as it doesn't make sense to uproot them until she has a place for herself (maybe 1 month from now). So I have my girls Thurs/Fri/Sat nights and every other Sunday night. The other nights I sleep at my parent's or a friend's.
There is no chance that I would let her take them more than 50% as a regular schedule.
BEC the title of this thread needs to change.
Seriously.
BEC the title of this thread needs to change.
Seriously.
I guess you're telling me to stop beating myself up.
BEC -
right now, my wife and I are taking turns in our house as it doesn't make sense to uproot them until she has a place for herself (maybe 1 month from now). So I have my girls Thurs/Fri/Sat nights and every other Sunday night. The other nights I sleep at my parent's or a friend's.
There is no chance that I would let her take them more than 50% as a regular schedule.
That's better than me: I got duped into leaving. I never wanted to.
I just had a long talk with my folks. Their good people and usually hold their tongues and stay neutral.
They really believe that I've been in an abusive R for 13 years. That she beat the mental snot out of me, I snapped, I changed, now she's manipulating me and using it as an excuse to get out.
I don't know what to believe.
I thought that same thing for a long time. Even prior to my depression.
But I have literally mentally withered away to where now I doubt myself. Treating this like it is all my fault.
That's what I mean about: is she just mentally unhinged? I've had plenty of experience with depression anxiety PTSD but I'm not crazy. And I would never treat anyone this way.
I'm not perfect by any means. But it makes me wonder.
Right now I have one single very short term goal. Make it through the night without calling or texting or going to my house to spy. It's all I'm thinking about but I'm resisting.
Knit. Paint. Mow the lawn. Play a game. Read a book. Balance your checkbook. Learn a magic trick.
Anything. Except. Contacting. Your. Wife.
Understand that you can not change her mind. Focus on the things you can control like how you react and conduct yourself during this sitch.
Your energy needs to be directed towards yourself and your girls. Personally I found reading this forum and self help book very helpful in wrapping my mind around it all. Read Sandi2's thread on wayward wives and see if it applies to your sitch.
"Grant me serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference"
Keep your head up - it does get easier.
I'm going to hang out on the forum. Could use the talks. Does anyone have any thoughts about what my folks said. I've often wondered for a very long time if my W is an emotionally abusive person. Given her background of child sex abuse and her very negative relationship with her father (he is not the one who abused her) I have often wondered this.
I believed it 100% up until the point when I knew I was going to lose her. That's when the sitch got turned totally upside down and I became the villain.
Guys, I have NOT always been the way I am now. But my W has pretty much always been the way she is now. Cold, distant, manipulating, doesn't openly share feelings etc....sex has ALWAYS been an issue. We didn't have sex at all on our honeymoon. We were 23 yrs old for God's sake. Everything always on her terms. When she wanted things. How she wanted things done. Be it sex. How and how often the house needed to be cleaned.
When I went through my clinical depression she used to yell at me and call me a "lazy piece of sh*t".
I mean I could write a rundown of not only the last few years....I could go all the way back to the beginning.
So if I'm going to hang out on the board for a while I want to brainstorm some of the advice that I need to be implementing.
My anxiety is a problem. I think it was Ten who said I need to do a 180 on allowing it to control my actions.
Someone else suggested I take it one day at a time to now overwhelm myself thinking about how long this may take.
Everyone has said that I need to stop talking to her about us period. End of story.
No snooping. No asking about her friend. Act as if I believe her even if I don't. Because if she's telling the truth and I press I am destroying my chances. If she's lying and I press it pushes her toward him.
Related to above: Show trust in order to regain trust.
Consistency. Stop talking and just act. Get my head straight and focus on getting myself in order and not doing it to win her back (this is a concept I am really struggling to grasp)
What else?
Hey BEC
I wanted to say hi and to give yiu some support. This whole mess is the pits and is one of the hardest things I have experienced. I get the feeling it is for you too.
It sounds like she had the upper hand emotionally and was not a nice person and manipulated you. This is very common on the boards. You are certainly not alone.
Hang in there and remember this process is for you not her- ok? You are the prize. Please remember that.
I am rooting for you regardless of how your sitch turns out.
Hang tough friend
Apparently I have a lot of time tonight. Kids are in bed and I guess I felt like lying around tonight.
So, let's accept the premise that this process is going to take months if not years. It will take incredible devotion to your W and your family, because the WAW wants nothing to do with the LBS. So instead of talking about all of your W's problems, try focusing on why you want to stay married.
Remember....this process is not about fixing HER. There is nothing you can do to CONTROL, CHANGE, or FIX her. This process is about healing and improving YOU. Any energy spent on trying to change her is just wasted. So I'd recommend thinking about how your actions and behaviors shaped who she has become. And 180 the ones you don't like.
At the end of the day you need to focus on you being in a better place. You are in charge of your happiness, that's not her job and you cant expect anyone to love you if you do not love yourself.
Have you been working on 180's? Detach - it's not easy but take one day at a time and get a hobby or hit the gym. Do something nice for yourself.
Apparently I have a lot of time tonight. Kids are in bed and I guess I felt like lying around tonight.
So, let's accept the premise that this process is going to take months if not years. It will take incredible devotion to your W and your family, because the WAW wants nothing to do with the LBS. So instead of talking about all of your W's problems, try focusing on why you want to stay married.
Remember....this process is not about fixing HER. There is nothing you can do to CONTROL, CHANGE, or FIX her. This process is about healing and improving YOU. Any energy spent on trying to change her is just wasted. So I'd recommend thinking about how your actions and behaviors shaped who she has become. And 180 the ones you don't like.
Well. If I focus on myself alone and just ignore her part I would say that there are a couple main things that I did that shaped her current reality.
1. The depression and anxiety problems: I became a different person. Distant. Never spent free time with kids or her. Basically everything you know about depression: that was me.
2. I cheated. Bottom line. I had an EA with another woman last year because I was seeing no movement from my W. It was short lived and I ended it on my own choice because I knew it was wrong. I did kiss this other woman. Met up with her twice. No sex. W found out and was devastated.
These are the main reasons I have heard from her. I had my head up my butt for 5 years (that is the depression and anxiety problems) and became someone she never imagined I would become.
I am a liar and broke her heart and there is no recovering from that (that is the EA part).
She feels that she and the kids deserve better. She hates me.
As far as why I want to stay married: My children deserve better. I believe that my W and I could move past our issues and could "divorce our marriage" and build a new and healthy relationship for the future.
I love my W. In spite of everything we have been through. Even in spite of the absolutely awful way she is treating me right now. I love her. I know that I can be the husband I once was and I already am the father she wanted me to be. I'm really really good with my kids. And the proof is in the pudding. They love me. They're always asking when I'm coming back home. I AM a good father. She just doesn't take the time to be around me at all to allow herself an opportunity to see it.
I know in my heart of hearts that our problems are fixable. I feel badly for my W right now because she has this skewed version of me that she believes. Why put the effort into a D with all of the damage it will cause, trade one set of problems for another, rather than take the time and effort to heal and move forward?
I would take your list and consider specifically what things you have done or traits that you have had that you think need to change. Then think of the action based 180s you want to take.
For example:
- you didn't spend free time with kids --> try to take kids out for one meal a week just you and them. Attend special events that they may have at school/activities. Take kids to a special outing once a month (zoo/park/chuck e cheese/etc)
Make the 180s about YOU. Not about your interactions with your W. You have to do them to make you the best you that you can be. For. YOU.
We all make mistakes. Its how we respond to those mistakes that define us.
What are you doing to change things?
Listen to what everyone is telling you. You cant change the past but you can shape the future.
Don't be a victim - get to work on you.
I've been spending all of my free time with my kids. And really focusing on being a present and great dad. And I am succeeding in that.
I do help my wife out around our house when she isn't there and I am. That is a behavior that I always did before things starting going south. I think she appreciates it on some level. She certainly hasn't told me to stop.
I'm working my butt off at work and ensuring that they are financially secure....this isn't a 180. I've always done this.
I'm in a holding pattern right now. She is saying that she is thinking about giving us a second chance. That she is considering talking to me and spending time with me as part of her decision making process.
I think that my 180s are being effective to a certain degree. But I keep messing up when it comes to pressuring and pursuing. I think I'm in desperation mode because our sep was only supposed to be a three month temp sep. Those first 3 months I didn't pursue her. I left her completely alone. Just dropped off money and spent time with the kids when I was off.
She didn't end up missing me. She ended up being happier without me. So now here I am at 6 months and I'm freaking out.
But her whole mindset is based upon this skewed image of me.
I'm not going to argue with your 180s. Spending time with your kids? Working hard? Helping at home? These are all good things (though I wouldn't do TOO much cleaning and such - you don't want to be the maid....you want to be the husband).
But what 180s are you doing with regards to the problems you listed above?
What kinds of action-based things are you doing to work on your anxiety, your depression, your lack of trust for your W, your W's lack of trust for you?
Its been 6 months but from what I can tell, you haven't changed the things about you that led to your marriage falling apart.
For me, one thing was that my W told me she was upset because I could never celebrate/appreciate accomplishments. I was already working on the NEXT thing, so we never took the opportunity to appreciate what was just accomplished. So, I'm working to pick out special events like my daughter's bday, her impending kindergarten graduation, my upcoming promotion, etc and I want to do something nice for these kinds of things instead of just blowing by them.
I'd recommend you really look at the root causes of the things above and change your fundamental approach to those situations.
So far as I understand my contributions is that I wasn't (in her eyes) making her and the kids a priority. She doesn't care that I was going through a personal hell with depression and anxiety. She views it as I "checked out".
So I'm working on getting my behaviors back to how I was before all of that.
As far as the trust issue: I am the one who cheated. My W seems to be being forthright with me about her friend. The next 180 I am working on is making him a dead issue. Stop snooping. Stop asking. Ignore it. If she tells me she's with him....act as if I'm perfectly fine with it.
I have to show her trust and respect if I want it in return.
What other suggestions.
I'm terrified of going dark because that is being unavailable.
I don't know what other behaviors I can start changing. I know alot of people have told me to get back into my hobbies like golf and music. But when I was depressed, I immersed myself in those things to the detriment of my family.
So I feel like if I start focusing on those things again it's a loss for me.
Can you guys see the picture I'm painting. I can focus on me all day long....but will it ever get me anywhere with her.
She has the emotional upper hand. I've been manipulated. I know my role. I've admitted it. I've apologized. I'm working to correct it.
I left her alone and didn't pursue for 4 months....she "moved on"
Now if I pursue it's "too little too late"
I can't win.
There is nothing you can do to control her or the outcome.
As long as you define "win" by getting her to do what you want you're right, you can't win.
I'm not going to argue with your 180s. Spending time with your kids? Working hard? Helping at home? These are all good things (though I wouldn't do TOO much cleaning and such - you don't want to be the maid....you want to be the husband).
But what 180s are you doing with regards to the problems you listed above?
What kinds of action-based things are you doing to work on your anxiety, your depression, your lack of trust for your W, your W's lack of trust for you?
Its been 6 months but from what I can tell, you haven't changed the things about you that led to your marriage falling apart.
For me, one thing was that my W told me she was upset because I could never celebrate/appreciate accomplishments. I was already working on the NEXT thing, so we never took the opportunity to appreciate what was just accomplished. So, I'm working to pick out special events like my daughter's bday, her impending kindergarten graduation, my upcoming promotion, etc and I want to do something nice for these kinds of things instead of just blowing by them.
I'd recommend you really look at the root causes of the things above and change your fundamental approach to those situations.
So you're peeling the orange on the root causes: Depression, anxiety and trust.
Well, as far as depression and anxiety. I've been working with a nurse practitioner for a few years now. Take mild doses of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds.
The trust issue: I'm trying to be transparent and keep open lines of communication with my wife. I have to stop snooping. Have to take her at her word about her friend. I have no idea what action based 180s I can do from a behavioral standpoint to start chipping away at these root causes.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
To quote my wife from yesterday as she was yelling at me "You are a f'in liar and you are the worst kind of liar because you believe your own B.S."
And my son heard her say this.
Guys....I am not who she thinks I am. I just am not.
BEC.
You are in a non stop cycle right now. It's an endless thought loop and you are obsessing.
Can you try and go to sleep?
Well. Good night BEC. I don't know if you are searching through these forums for an answer or just staring at the screen.
I wish you the best and hope we can start fresh in the morning.
To quote my wife from yesterday as she was yelling at me "You are a f'in liar and you are the worst kind of liar because you believe your own B.S."
This is abusive on her part.
Walk away, depression is not a crime.
Has she always been this abusive?
To quote my wife from yesterday as she was yelling at me "You are a f'in liar and you are the worst kind of liar because you believe your own B.S."
This is abusive on her part.
Walk away, depression is not a crime.
Has she always been this abusive?
This is not something new.
Hey BEC. How are you this morning?
To quote my wife from yesterday as she was yelling at me "You are a f'in liar and you are the worst kind of liar because you believe your own B.S."
This is abusive on her part.
Walk away, depression is not a crime.
Has she always been this abusive?
Cadet. When you say "walk away" what are you saying? I can write a background sitch that explains everything from the beginning of my R. If you go back a bit in the thread you can see what my parents think is happening / has happened.
Hey BEC,
Good morning, told ya I'd be back! Here are some quotes I've highlighted.
You have changed and become self reflective:
These are the main reasons I have heard from her. I had my head up my butt for 5 years (that is the depression and anxiety problems) and became someone she never imagined I would become.
I know in my heart of hearts that our problems are fixable. I feel badly for my W right now because she has this skewed version of me that she believes.
I've been spending all of my free time with my kids. And really focusing on being a present and great dad. And I am succeeding in that.
I do help my wife out around our house when she isn't there and I am. That is a behavior that I always did before things starting going south. I think she appreciates it on some level. She certainly hasn't told me to stop.
I'm working my butt off at work and ensuring that they are financially secure....this isn't a 180. I've always done this.
Well, as far as depression and anxiety. I've been working with a nurse practitioner for a few years now. Take mild doses of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds.
Now, you are worried about going dark. You have been away for 3 months and gave here space. This hasn't improved the situation in your eyes. You want your W to see that you have changed and that your M is fixable. If she could only see that, D would damage you kids and is not an answer to any of this.
Let's park the abuse your W had done. Something that we can address asap.
You are in a rough spot. I know I've been there, still there sometimes. It's horrible. I see your pain and you need an answer because you believe that time is against you.
But you need to clear your head first. With clarity you can start seeing what is going on and more importantly, what options you truly have before you. I'll be back later to check up and hope you either get more sleep or some more support.
Cadet is saying to walk away when she's spewing at you. If she's doing it over the phone, say "I will be happy to have a conversation w/you when you can speak to me in a respectful manner". If she's spewing via text, do not respond. You are not her whipping boy. Walk away, do not engage when she's like that.
I have an update that I'll post shortly guys.
Ok. So here is the update. I spoke with her this morning.
I will paraphrase.
Her side of the conversation: I told you I would think about things and you keep pestering me. I don't love you, I don't like you. I'm sad that our relationship ended up like this. I have PTSD from living with you.
My side of the conversation: I left you completely alone for 4 months. We agreed upon a 3 month temporary separation and after three months you told me you were not ready for me to come home yet. So I didn't. At the end of month 4 we got together to have a conversation about how we were going to start reconciling. You said some things during that conversation that upset me, I reacted, and you immediately said you were done. So I admit that I am now freaking out. You pulled the rug out from under me. I DID LEAVE YOU ALONE. Completely for 4 months. We've done everything your way and you haven't kept any of your promises or met me in the middle on anything. How else am I supposed to react to all of this.
I asked her where she got the $3,500 for a lawyer. She said her parents. I told her if it's over than how does she think this all shakes out. What am I supposed to do? She said I could get a one bedroom apartment and she would continue living in the house.
I told her what made her think that that would be what would happen...she said because I don't live there.
I asked her if she had spoken to a lawyer. She said yes. I asked her if she had spoken to them about how long D proceedings take and how the post divorce living arrangements would work. She said they hadn't discussed that. She thinks that the D would be quick and that she would get to simply just keep living in my sister's house that I pay for.
I told her that that is not the way it would work. She asked if I spoke to a lawyer. I said that yes I did after I had found the paperwork she was filling out and the checkbook. I told her that in no way shape or form do I want things to get to that point. But I did tell her that I have been informed that I have every right to return to the home whenever I choose. That it is not "her" home simply because she believes it to be. And that D proceedings will take about a year.
We switched gears and I told her that that is not where I want to go with this. That I'm not handling this well because I did leave her alone for 4 months and she backed out on her promise of giving reconciliation a chance. How else am I supposed to react.
I asked her if we could please finally compromise on something. She has made it clear that I am pestering her. So I asked her this: All I am looking for is for you to follow through on your compromise that you made all the way back in November. I am sorry I am pestering you but you pulled the rug out from under me and I am not handling this well. If I back off completely. Truly back off for two months and give you real space to think, will you give us a chance at reconciliation as you originally had agreed to? And then if reconciliation does not work, we can split amicably.
She said she would "think about it".
So I told her that starting right now I am going to keep my end of the deal. That between now and the end of July it will be nothing but kids and finances and I will give her the time to think.
I know this was probably a bad move but she has completely steamrolled me:
She broke her promise from November about a temporary 3 months followed by reconciliation.
She thinks that she can just file for divorce, that it will be a quick little proceeding and that she will just continue to get to live in my sister's house that I pay for and her little bubble world of being a stay at home mom and me just paying for everything will continue.
She's claiming I'm pestering her but I shot that down because I did not bother her an inch for 4 months. All I gave her was space and she utilized that to unilaterally decide that she would not compromise with me one inch.
So that is where I'm at. I told her that I will upheld my end of what I said and she will not hear from me at all except for kids and finances for two months. And I'm going to stick to that no if's and's or but's.
She gave me no guarantee of giving reconciliation a chance at the end of two months. The best I got was "I'll think about it".
I'll wait now for you guys to beat me up. I had to stand up for myself guys.
And from what I can gather from her: She really believes me to be the bad guy. 100%. Saying that she has PTSD from dealing with me the last few years. That she feels like a prisoner with me pestering her and such.
But what about her treatment of me? This may be her reality but it is not the full truth.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that you had another conversation w/her. Did you call her? If you did, you are most certainly a glutton for punishment.
BEClem, I know that this is very difficult for you, but what is it that you aren't getting when we advise you not to have relationship conversations with her and more importantly questioning her about lawyers, divorce and where she got the money for a lawyer? She has told you not once, but many times that you are pressuring her.
Bottom line, stop talking to her about anything other finances, children and emergencies. You say that you are going to leave her alone, give her space and yet, here you are again, having conversations w/her.
You have to understand...she doesn't give one fig about you right now. She is in her own little world, enjoying her freedom and doing what she wants and when she wants to. You are not her problem right now. As for promises, oh my goodness, they will promise you the moon or say things that you want to hear, but at the end of the day, they don't keep those promises. They are said to get you off their backs and leave them alone.
So, you've heard what she has to say (again). She's heard what you had to say and quite frankly, it went in one ear and out the other. In her eyes, you are a very needy, whiny man who doesn't want to hear what she's saying and you know what she's been saying all along? Give me space and time and do not pressure me. I need to make some decisions and I can't focus on them w/you constantly talking to me about what you want.
BEClem, if you continue to pressure her, talk to her about the relationship, she will surely file and guess what? Right now, she's more determined than ever to seriously move forward on it, if you continue down the path you've been going.
I know it's difficult for you, but you need to stop it and put the focus back on to you. Would you honestly want someone bugging you all of the time about stuff? I don't think so. What has happened in your situation didn't happen over night and it's going to take a long time for this to shake out.
FOCUS ON YOU! NO MORE RELATIONSHIP CONVERSATIONS WITH HER!!!
I'm just sorry to hear that you're struggling BE. We all get it. You're doing your best, now you just have to do your best in a different manner.
Job is right though, you're not going to argue, cajole, agree with, disagree with, or convince your W in any fashion to turn things around. Just the opposite. Just because she "promised" one thing but feels otherwise and you've pointed this out isn't going to change her mind either. There's nothing you can do or say to her to make her turn around. No veiled threat about her lifestyle, no bringing up the past. Nada. Nothing.
Maybe you should start a new thread titled, "BEClem has two months to make himself awesome" and start doing all the things that people have recommended to you and journalling those. You agreed to two more months off with your W, use them wisely.
Next time she sees you she should be looking at a stronger, more confident man because you've taken all of this upset, anger, and sadness, and channelled it into your work on yourself.
And from what I can gather from her: She really believes me to be the bad guy. 100%. Saying that she has PTSD from dealing with me the last few years. That she feels like a prisoner with me pestering her and such.
But what about her treatment of me? This may be her reality but it is not the full truth.
What about her treatment of you? How does focusing on that help you move forward in a positive manner? She has her perspective, you have yours.
You can't change hers no matter how warped you may feel that it is. That's literally impossible.
BUT, you can put that to the side and go full force on your own self improvement...if you're willing to let go of this story for two months and dive in.
We've all had to swallow the same pill BE, and it's terrible. But swallow it we must.
IMO, any time a thought is followed by "but" it negates any statement the preceded it...
I am going to be blunt.
You need to back off. You need to leave her alone.
When she told that her friend was with her, why did you call her? What was your thought process behind that? Not responding or reacting in any way would have benefited the sitch far more.
Where does it matter where the money for the L came from? As long as it didn't come out of any joint monies, what do you care?
From what I am reading, you constantly seem to create these confrontations w/ your W. What you are doing is not a 180. It is barely a 15 from my perspective.
IMO, any time a thought is followed by "but" it negates any statement the preceded it...
I am going to be blunt.
You need to back off. You need to leave her alone.
When she told that her friend was with her, why did you call her? What was your thought process behind that? Not responding or reacting in any way would have benefited the sitch far more.
Where does it matter where the money for the L came from? As long as it didn't come out of any joint monies, what do you care?
From what I am reading, you constantly seem to create these confrontations w/ your W. What you are doing is not a 180. It is barely a 15 from my perspective.
The money matters because I am the only one who works and she hadn't paid any money for rent to my sister since December: What would you suspect happened? She says she got the money from her father.
Would you not have known if she liberated $3,500 from the joint accounts? If there was no money missing then your demands for an accounting is borderline snooping.
Look, my XW came up with the money ($2,500 retainer)for her L. I never asked where it came from. I knew it didn't come from the joint accounts.
Not prying was one of my 180s. Not confronting her was, too.
That rent issue? That is between her and your sister. Yeah, I know... "BUT I am paying for the house..." So? The rental money is not your issue unless your name is on the lease. I will agree that it could be a crappy topic of conversation at family get togethers, though.
It is my name on the lease...and the jobs I work are cash based jobs.
I'm not arguing with you but it is not what you assume it to be.
It's a dead issue. But given that I get payed in primarily cash and she has a separate account and she is the one who has always handled the bill payments than it could have easily been done without my noticing it.
And as I said....it is my name on the lease.