Just remember before you do or say anything, ask yourself if it is bringing you CLOSER TO or FARTHER FROM your goal.
Well if you look back at my last thread I made a big mistake tonight. It brought me further.
I saw. That's why I posted what I did.
This isn't all about logic. It's about working towards a goal, even if what you need to do doesn't make sense.
BEC,
1) Beating on yourself when you have judged yourself for making a mistake will not do anything for you.
2) My DB coach warned me about the PA when my STBX swore up and down there was no affair. I knew better. I prepared myself. I was not in denial. I read after the affair. I did it all. When I heard the news, I was devastated. The point is, your "logical" mind and your "emotional" mind are one in the same.
3) Understand that your anxiety is a part of you. Denying it, repressing it, see point #2. I learned that we need to change our relationship with our anxiety not deny it.
Ten. I am sorry to hear that you had to be exposed to that. There are some dynamics about my W that lead me to believe that there really is no A.
My wife is a child sexual abuse survivor. Intimacy and sex are just not something she is comfortable with.
Going all the way back to when we were 21 yrs old and first starting dating. Madly in love. and through the first 8 or 9 years of our marriage when we were happy: sex was always an issue for her.
I've seen her have panic attacks during sex. I've seen her go through spells where we would have no intimacy for weeks on end.
I've heard her tell me time and time again that she doesn't even like sex.
The dynamic I'm dealing with is not exactly "typical".
Honestly, I would eat my left arm if there was anything beyond a friendship with this guy.
I, and many other family members and friends close to the situation who have known my W for 15 years and are familiar with both her childhood trauma and how it has impacted her behaviors within the context of our entire marriage (not just the part I'm responsible for which is the depression) believe that she doesn't want to be with anyone. She just wants to be in her bubble world with only her and our two children.
And that is basically what she said to me tonight: "I don't want him. I don't want to be with anyone". She projects it to me claiming that it is because I messed her up. Now I am fully accountable for my role the last few years and that is what I am working on. Anyone who follows my sitch knows that I am self aware of my role and not blame shifting.
But, my W displays, and has always displayed from the time we started dating 15 years ago, the typical behaviors associated with adults who are survivors of childhood sexual abuse.
Trust me: there is nothing physical going on. I have lived with this woman for a decade and a half and am very familiar with the emotional and psychological effects that occur in adult relationships for survivors.
I don't believe her when she says she doesn't want to be with anyone because I'm being naive. I believe her because my wife is a childhood sex abuse survivor and sex and intimacy are not the same as they are for those of us fortunate enough to not have experienced such a horrible trauma.
I hope that all makes sense. And I will be quite frank and forthright: Anyone who may attempt to tell me I'm being naive I will politely disagree in advance. Unless you have had a long term romantic relationship with a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, you cannot fully grasp just how uncomfortable and undesirable sex is for them.
So basically, I'm going to s^&tcan these thoughts I'm having because they are illogical based on what I know to be fact about my W.
When she says she doesn't want to be with anyone and probably won't want to be ever again.....she means it. Those exact words are what woke me up tonight to drop this whole friend thing.
I'm destroying my progress by focusing on something that isn't even happening.
I'm also realizing that her trauma is tied in directly to why she feels such a strong hate toward me currently. Just as the person who had abused her as a child betrayed her trust. I, through my depression and distance and through the brief EA I had (after 2 plus years of no sex: see above for explanation on that)also betrayed her trust.
For someone who struggles tremendously with issues of trust, be it emotionally or physically, it is going to be a major uphill battle for me to get her to trust me again.
She puts up walls to protect herself under the very best of circumstances. Always has. Well these are the worst of circumstances.
Again, I'm not blameshifting. But, I thought it might be time to disclose that information about my W because I do believe it to be pertinent to not only how we got to this point but also to how to I successfully DB.
And that is basically what she said to me tonight: "I don't want him. I don't want to be with anyone". She projects it to me claiming that it is because I messed her up. Now I am fully accountable for my role the last few years and that is what I am working on. Anyone who follows my sitch knows that I am self aware of my role and not blame shifting.
Hello BEClem,
You are defintely not in a "typical" situation. Sure, all of our situations are unique in some way, but with the abuse your W dealt with when she was young, it makes things even tougher. I know you are not one to "blame shift."
I understand the projecting. My IC is convinced that my W, who left 6 months ago to live with her Mom (who physically and verbally abused her and her sisters when they were little--how ironic) is projecting her MS and related health issues on to me. Blaming the "caretaker" so to speak. I, too, have owned up to my part in our troubles--both to her and on this forum. And to this day, my W hasn't admitted to any wrong-doing on her part. I am the big bad wolf because I was "smothering" her. Looking back, I was too concerned about her driving, etc., but it truly was out of concern for her safety. But her perception is her reality.
I hope it helps you to hear my story so that you know you are not alone. My W also says she doesn't want to be with anyone.
Please hang in there and stand tall. We will help you thru this!
Bob
Thank you Bob. It is comforting to hear from others with "unique" and untypical dynamics in their situation.
You and I are def dealing with the same thing: Being blamed for everything with our W's not yet possessing the ability to see their own roles.
You and I are also both acknowledging our roles and using that self awareness to make the changes that we need to make. And neither of us is demonizing our W's.
You're W's MS and my W's childhood trauma are certainly unique situations. Maybe there are others out there who have similar types of circumstances.
We're all in this together.
I'm also realizing that her trauma is tied in directly to why she feels such a strong hate toward me currently. Just as the person who had abused her as a child betrayed her trust. I, through my depression and distance and through the brief EA I had (after 2 plus years of no sex: see above for explanation on that)also betrayed her trust.
For someone who struggles tremendously with issues of trust, be it emotionally or physically, it is going to be a major uphill battle for me to get her to trust me again.
She puts up walls to protect herself under the very best of circumstances. Always has. Well these are the worst of circumstances.
Again, I'm not blameshifting. But, I thought it might be time to disclose that information about my W because I do believe it to be pertinent to not only how we got to this point but also to how to I successfully DB.
BEC, I was just reading through some of your posts. I can see myself a few months ago in some of your posts. One thing I did notice is you seem to put alot of blame on yourself. I think it is good to look at our roll in the problems in our marriage and work to fix ourselves. That is alot of what DB is about. But you suffering from depression is not your fault. It is a disease. That has nothing to do with her trust of you. It seems you are taking all the blame.
I did not find the whole story about who "HE" is. But if you 2 are separated and she is having another M over, that would make me start to rethink my approach on DBing. Read through Sandi' s thread on the difference between a WW and a WAW. Just my 2 cents! Hang tough!
She's not wayward. Trust me. If you read about her history of sexual abuse and her issues with intimacy and sex: she means it when she says she doesn't want to be with anyone.
And you're right: I know I'm not 100% to blame. I was a great husband (not perfect) for almost 9 years.
I put up with more BS from my W than you could possibly imagine. She has never fully faced or dealt with her childhood trauma. I tried like hell in the early years of our marriage to address this with her many many times. Tried to get her help: therapy. Counseling. Nothing stuck.
Ive educated myself a lot through the years about the topic because I love her and wanted to help. The coping mechanisms that childhood sex abuse victims develop become very detrimental for adult relationships.
Trust issues, didassociative disorders, disinterest, avoidance and even fear of sex. Some symptoms even mimic those of a narcissist: controlling, cold, verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, manipulative. It also can mimic like living with a manic depressive: a few weeks of the sweet person who is the real person followed by extended periods of time of a cold and controlling individual who is just flat out mean.
I was put through the ringer for a long time. There are many people close to the situation who have said "she beat the s&$t out of you for years and you snapped. And now she is holding that against you".
I'm not justifying my behaviors but depression is a disease as is my panic disorder. Not once during that time did she ever reach out to me in a living and compassionate way. Never attended any sessions with me. Never contacted my nurse practitioner to see how I was progressing. Never educated herself on what I was experiencing.
I once gave her the analogy of "if I had cancer would you have deemed me an unavailable father and husband?" She said "I see the analogy you are making but it is a stretch".
Additionally, the EA that I had, which literally lasted a week and I met with her twice, happened after my w had not had sex with me for 2.5 years. 2.5 years!!!!! And believe me, it wasn't from a lack of me expressing interest or showing affection.
When she found out about it, not once did she say that her behaviors may have contributed to it. My actions are my own and I'm accountable for them. What I did was wrong. But I will tell you this. If it hadn't been for the fact that my wife was witholding sexual intimacy from me for a period of time that was extremely excessive I never never never in a million years would have done what I did. And I didn't even "do the deed". I stopped it before it went to far.
She made me tell my parents what I did. And do you know what they said? "Is she really surprised? She hasn't slept with you in over 2 years."
And the last 6 months. Her treatment of me is despicable.
I am venting right now. None of this means I am not aware of my part. I am fully accountable and am working on correcting it. But she has zero accountability.
I can count on one hand, in 15 years, the number of times my wife has said "I'm sorry" to me. For anything.
Again, I'm not blame shifting: but what I am writing here is the truth.
But I have no idea how to handle this. I left her completely alone the first four months of the sep. Maybe talked about us once a month. Than she turned that around on me and used it as an example of me not being there. Now I'm trying to be proactive and suddenly she's done. It's over. I'm smothering her. Etc....
I can't win. No matter what I've done. Our entire marriage. I can't win.
She has no concept of compromise. No concept of making sacrifices to meet the needs of your partner. And this current situation is no different.
I honestly do not know what to do because I'm telling you guys. I love her. But she has some serious serious issues and always has.
Part of me right now want to just say F it. Pack up my stuff and go home. Tell her the truth. The full truth. Not just about me. But about her as well. And then just tell her do whatever you want. I'm done trying.
That was really long and I'm sorry guys. But that is a very accurate backstory about her part that I have not been sharing or focusing on at all.
As someone who survived childhood sexual abuse and sexual assault later as an adult, I would urge you to stop defining your wife by what happened to her. She is so much more than what happened to her. Yes, she has baggage. Yes it's been an issue within your marriage. But she is not, and should not be defined by that. Have you ever thought that maybe her actions as an adult stem from more than her childhood abuse? I imagine not, because you're too busy defining her. For her.
Prime example: myself. I'm a hardass, emotionally unavailable, cold, sarcastic, demanding, controlling, etc. a lot of the things you describe in your life. And I can tell you for a fact that being sexually abused didn't make me into the person I am today. It contributed to it, yes, but it does not define me. Sometimes I'm a bitch because, well, I'm a bitch. Try to separate your wife from her past.
And honestly? I know you're venting and you're angry etc etc. But you, yourself are making yourself as much as a victim as you are your wife. Blaming your wife for your EA because you hadn't been intimate with her for 2.5 years - and your upset because she didn't see your blaming of her? What did you want her to do? Fall all over herself and say, "H, I'm a childhood victim of sexual assault and my coping mechanisms have been detrimental to our marriage and why should I be surprised because I haven't had sex with you in 2.5 years?"
Yeah no.
Here's the thing. I could be your wife. I have been your wife. There have been dry spells in my marriage and throughout our relatiosnhip for various different reasons. I would probably have the same reaction your W did if my H had an EA. because in my mind, we may not be having sex, but that doesn't mean to go out and get your needs met emotionally and physically.
I'm going to cut it to you straight. You need to work on yourself and your resentment and your habit of defining your wife by her past and your anger. Because until you get to a place where you can stop being blindingly angry about your W's lack of support for you, and other issues, this thing is going to blow up. More than it already has. You honestly don't have anything encouraging or nice to say about your wife. So my honest question is this: if you feel so poorly about her and believe she won't change (know you haven't said that - but that's how it's reading), is that enough for you? Or will you have to move on?
Your W can only fix herself. And maybe she will, and maybe she won't. You are the same way. I would encourage you to google the term wound mates - I see some of that dynamic in your relationship.
The last thing I will say is this: people are going to disappoint you. People are going to do things differently than you think they should. I understand the frustration, believe me I do. I went through it with my H and his parents. H went through it with me. I go through it with other people in my life. But I would encourage you to remember that just because someone doesn't react the way that YOU think they should, doesn't mean they aren't doing the best they can. Or what they feel is right for the situation. There is no right or wrong viewpoint when it comes to life.
I'm sorry tonight has been tough. I hope you find peace in the upcoming days and can figure out the path forward.
She's not wayward. Trust me.
Here is the thing.
It does not matter what the label is, she is in crisis, and she needs to fix herself,
you did not cause her childhood wounds and YOU can not FIX them.
Yes you were not perfect.
You are not to blame for causing HER crisis.
So pick yourself up dust yourself off and be the best you can be.
Be a great DAD.
Your children are half you, and your wife, two broken people, lead them forward and show them how to have a great life!
OK?
Cadet,
Are you a success story? A coach? Just wondering since you are a moderator
I think I am a success.
It may be measured differently than what you expect,
I am on the other side ànd I love and am loved.
My kids are successful.
What more can a guy want?
Click on my name and read my start, you will know I was in the same place as you.
As someone who survived childhood sexual abuse and sexual assault later as an adult, I would urge you to stop defining your wife by what happened to her. She is so much more than what happened to her. Yes, she has baggage. Yes it's been an issue within your marriage. But she is not, and should not be defined by that. Have you ever thought that maybe her actions as an adult stem from more than her childhood abuse? I imagine not, because you're too busy defining her. For her.
Prime example: myself. I'm a hardass, emotionally unavailable, cold, sarcastic, demanding, controlling, etc. a lot of the things you describe in your life. And I can tell you for a fact that being sexually abused didn't make me into the person I am today. It contributed to it, yes, but it does not define me. Sometimes I'm a bitch because, well, I'm a bitch. Try to separate your wife from her past.
And honestly? I know you're venting and you're angry etc etc. But you, yourself are making yourself as much as a victim as you are your wife. Blaming your wife for your EA because you hadn't been intimate with her for 2.5 years - and your upset because she didn't see your blaming of her? What did you want her to do? Fall all over herself and say, "H, I'm a childhood victim of sexual assault and my coping mechanisms have been detrimental to our marriage and why should I be surprised because I haven't had sex with you in 2.5 years?"
Yeah no.
Here's the thing. I could be your wife. I have been your wife. There have been dry spells in my marriage and throughout our relatiosnhip for various different reasons. I would probably have the same reaction your W did if my H had an EA. because in my mind, we may not be having sex, but that doesn't mean to go out and get your needs met emotionally and physically.
I'm going to cut it to you straight. You need to work on yourself and your resentment and your habit of defining your wife by her past and your anger. Because until you get to a place where you can stop being blindingly angry about your W's lack of support for you, and other issues, this thing is going to blow up. More than it already has. You honestly don't have anything encouraging or nice to say about your wife. So my honest question is this: if you feel so poorly about her and believe she won't change (know you haven't said that - but that's how it's reading), is that enough for you? Or will you have to move on?
Your W can only fix herself. And maybe she will, and maybe she won't. You are the same way. I would encourage you to google the term wound mates - I see some of that dynamic in your relationship.
The last thing I will say is this: people are going to disappoint you. People are going to do things differently than you think they should. I understand the frustration, believe me I do. I went through it with my H and his parents. H went through it with me. I go through it with other people in my life. But I would encourage you to remember that just because someone doesn't react the way that YOU think they should, doesn't mean they aren't doing the best they can. Or what they feel is right for the situation. There is no right or wrong viewpoint when it comes to life.
I'm sorry tonight has been tough. I hope you find peace in the upcoming days and can figure out the path forward.
Calibri. You are right. I do have a lot of resentment still at how I was treated by her. Please believe me when I say that I do not blame my wife for my EA. I made that choice and that is on me.
I am trying to grow and to move past my anger. But it's frustrating that she is blaming me fully for us being where we are. If I am working toward not defining her, I wish she could do the same toward me.
Because doesn't the reverse hold true? Should she be defining me by my depression? Or by a single mistake I made (EA)?
The only reason I vented last night was because someone had pointed out to me that I shouldn't be blaming myself 100% for this. So I felt that in response, I should disclose the history of my wife's role in all of this.
You're probably correct that not all of her actions throughout the years stem from her trauma. But some of them certainly do.
But the truth is that she didn't treat me very well for a long time before I sort of fell apart. Should she not be accountable for her role just as I am struggling to focus on and be accountable for mine?
I appreciate your insight. Thank you.
I guess my comments on this would be that you seem to be holding on to (and trying to control?) the outcome of her also being accountable for part of what happened.
But, how and if she comes to own her part in this is not something you can control. The only bits you can look at are your own. And I think it is important to be clear and honest with yourself about what you do and don't own. There may be things you don't own and that is fine. But that does not mean that she will own them.
It's coming back to the fact that the only person you can control and work on is yourself. She will do what she will and in her own time and way.
By holding on to the fact that she 'should' own certain things, you may be holding yourself back from helpful introspection and progress.
But the truth is that she didn't treat me very well for a long time before I sort of fell apart. Should she not be accountable for her role just as I am struggling to focus on and be accountable for mine?
Yes - If you two are to ever have a NEW marriage/relationship.
What TOOTS said above is also true,
right now it is not in your CONTROL.
You have been fired as a husband,
she can not fire you as her children's father.
You can not let her do that!
It is quite attractive and a boundary!
You working on your half is showing her the way forward.
She may follow you or she may not.
You win either way!
What do you mean Cadet by "it is quite attractive and a boundary"?
There's part of me that thinks she wants to see me get back to the real me and stop backsliding.
But I'll go a week or so and make some progress and then make a mistake like I did yesterday and it destroys everything.
Ironically, now I finally am relieved and truly see that there is no OM situation.
But now I'm terrified that she is going to file.
What do you mean Cadet by "it is quite attractive and a boundary"?
Women look for qualities in a man that they find attractive.
Men look for qualities in a woman that they find attractive.
Don't you?
What attracted you to your wife in the first place?
Was she pretty?
Did she spend time with you?
Do your laundry?
Give you gifts?
Etc....
It is a boundary because it is a line in the sand that says
no matter what you do I am going to be there for MY children.
You then need to walk that walk and prove it!
Not just talk but with actions!
Does that make it any clearer?
I sent her a text this morning. She does not want to speak with me at all. She is so pissed.
I asked her to please not file and to give me time. That I'm working diligently on my issues and realize that I need to allow her to process things in her own way without me pressuring her.
I told her that I realize that every time I stumble I destroy the progress I make with her. This is something she agreed to in conversation last night.
I just asked her to please not file and to continue to give me more time to stop stumbling and continue working toward getting back to the real me.
Now I need to shut up and act.
She made it clear that she has no desire to speak with me unless it concerns scheduling time with the kids.
I'm basically back to square one and it is all my fault. I feel like such an idiot.
Again, I'm not a vet here - only been around about a month.
But the way I see it, you CANT act out of fear that she is going to file or actually proceed with the divorce. These are just legal steps that don't ACTUALLY impact your relationship with her or your relationship with YOURSELF. You CANNOT control what she does, so you HAVE to worry about you can control - yourself.
Sending desperate texts is not going to change her mind. Words are not going to change her mind. ACTIONS are going to change her mind. You set goals just yesterday. Did you reach them?
No. I blew it before the day was through. I'm scared Matt. I'm really scared.
Here I am. Tough Marine Vet. Fear no one and nothing. But this: I am afraid of.
And everyone is right. I am struggling tremendously to let go of control.
What do you mean Cadet by "it is quite attractive and a boundary"?
Women look for qualities in a man that they find attractive.
Men look for qualities in a woman that they find attractive.
Don't you?
What attracted you to your wife in the first place?
Was she pretty?
Did she spend time with you?
Do your laundry?
Give you gifts?
Etc....
It is a boundary because it is a line in the sand that says
no matter what you do I am going to be there for MY children.
You then need to walk that walk and prove it!
Not just talk but with actions!
Does that make it any clearer?
Yes it does.
Hey. I was there. Terrified.
But you know what? I'm only thirty two years old. My life may only be 1/3 over. I can't let whatever happens with my W ruin potentially the next SIXTY years of my life. So I accept my responsibility. I will learn from it. And I will apply it to whatever comes at me in the future. This won't KILL me. This won't BEAT me. This will make me a BETTER me.
Of course it's sad. It's sad for me, for my daughters, for my family, for my friends. But it is not the END of any of it.
No. I blew it before the day was through. I'm scared Matt. I'm really scared.
Here I am. Tough Marine Vet. Fear no one and nothing. But this: I am afraid of.
And everyone is right. I am struggling tremendously to let go of control.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!
Ok guys. Chime in. Everyone knows of my setbacks and especially my latest one.
Here is what I have noticed what has worked and what has been detrimental to my progress this last month or so:
What's worked:
The 180s of spending a lot of quality time with my children and being the best father I am capable of being.
Being helpful around my house when I am there without telling my W and having no expectations of praise or recognition.
Not engaging in any other type of talk except for pleasant small talk or discussions surrounding the children.
Leaving my W alone when it comes to pursuit: be it seeking reassurances or questions about her new found social life
What hasn't worked:
Begging.
Pursuing.
Seeking reassurance.
Asking any questions about what she is up to.
Snooping.
I think I need to not go dark but go dim for a few weeks and reassess. Continue the 180s that have been working. But let go of control. Don't contact her at all unless it is about children time. If she texts me don't answer right away unless it is an emergency. If she texts me about something other than the childrenand isn't an emergency don't even answer her back. Start going out with friends once a week instead of playing babysitter for her when she wants to go out.
Space space space
Thoughts?
Ok guys. Chime in. Everyone knows of my setbacks and especially my latest one.
Here is what I have noticed what has worked and what has been detrimental to my progress this last month or so:
What's worked:
The 180s of spending a lot of quality time with my children and being the best father I am capable of being.
Being helpful around my house when I am there without telling my W and having no expectations of praise or recognition.
Not engaging in any other type of talk except for pleasant small talk or discussions surrounding the children.
Leaving my W alone when it comes to pursuit: be it seeking reassurances or questions about her new found social life
What hasn't worked:
Begging.
Pursuing.
Seeking reassurance.
Asking any questions about what she is up to.
Snooping.
I think I need to not go dark but go dim for a few weeks and reassess. Continue the 180s that have been working. But let go of control. Don't contact her at all unless it is about children time. If she texts me don't answer right away unless it is an emergency. If she texts me about something other than the childrenand isn't an emergency don't even answer her back. Start going out with friends once a week instead of playing babysitter for her when she wants to go out.
Space space space
Thoughts?
Sounds like the DB recipe to me!
You can DO IT!
My only other option is to just go home and say you win. Do whatever you want.
Which probably isn't very solution oriented.
She wants space. She wants no interaction. She wants to see action and not hear words.
Ok guys. Chime in. Everyone knows of my setbacks and especially my latest one.
Here is what I have noticed what has worked and what has been detrimental to my progress this last month or so:
What's worked:
The 180s of spending a lot of quality time with my children and being the best father I am capable of being.
Being helpful around my house when I am there without telling my W and having no expectations of praise or recognition.
Not engaging in any other type of talk except for pleasant small talk or discussions surrounding the children.
Leaving my W alone when it comes to pursuit: be it seeking reassurances or questions about her new found social life
What hasn't worked:
Begging.
Pursuing.
Seeking reassurance.
Asking any questions about what she is up to.
Snooping.
I think I need to not go dark but go dim for a few weeks and reassess. Continue the 180s that have been working. But let go of control. Don't contact her at all unless it is about children time. If she texts me don't answer right away unless it is an emergency. If she texts me about something other than the childrenand isn't an emergency don't even answer her back. Start going out with friends once a week instead of playing babysitter for her when she wants to go out.
Space space space
Thoughts?
Sounds like the DB recipe to me!
You can DO IT!
Then it's time to get to work.
Hi B,
So have you taken a look at what the source of your fear is?
By this I mean, is it a fear of your being rejected?
Is it that you are afraid that you failed in your marriage?
Could it be that you are afraid any future relationship will not be as good as your current marriage?
Or perhaps a fear of the unknown?
Are you able to define what your fear is, and where it is coming from?
It's hard to say. I'm fearful of never knowing if we could have worked things out and been happier than ever.
I'm scared for my children and how it would effect them.
I'm scared if regrets.
It's a lot of things.
It's also very scary and hurtful to see someone you love and have so much history with be so cold and cruel. And I mean cruel.
Successful FaceTime with kids. Didn't speak to or acknowledge W at all.
Went to my house while they were out and took care of lawn because it needed to be mowed.
Heading to work.
Check in tonight
Crying right now
Crying right now
Fine. Do it alone where nobody can see it.
Called my mother instead of her
Thank you Bob. It is comforting to hear from others with "unique" and untypical dynamics in their situation.
You and I are def dealing with the same thing: Being blamed for everything with our W's not yet possessing the ability to see their own roles.
Hey BEC,
You are most welcome! I'm glad that you found my post comforting. Let's pray that someday they will see their own roles which could, in turn, lead to reconiliation. But since it is out of your control and mine, just keep working on being the "best BEC" you can me.
Your end statement is so true. Yes, we are.
Try to think positive thoughts and do something you like to do. Even if don't feel up to it. It really seems to be helping me.
We'll get thru this together!
Bob
Just out if curiosity and I know that some of you have chimed in with answers already.
Is there anyone out there who thinks it would be a good idea for me to just go home?
Not saying I think it's a good idea and not saying I'm going to do it.
Take the option that scares you the most.
Well [censored]: packing up and just going home scares me the most.
Just out if curiosity and I know that some of you have chimed in with answers already.
Is there anyone out there who thinks it would be a good idea for me to just go home?
Not saying I think it's a good idea and not saying I'm going to do it.
Others have advised against it.
Take the option that scares you the most.
Just wondering why you would suggest to take the option that scares me most. Can you elaborate on that Ten?
180 is about doing the opposite of what you normally do.
You tell me you that in the past you were depressed and you abandoned her. So, has moving away gotten you any closer? Has moving away just seem a natural option for you?
You know what her reaction will be when you announce that you are moving back. You know that this could drive her away in an accelerated fashion.
My advice to you is that if you choose to go that route, you make sure that you are prepared to work through your own issues. No point in going back and being the same man.
I'm going to be honest with you BEC. You keep asking if you should go back or not. So, let's work through a plan on returning home and get some feedback from the forum.
Just want to be clear: I didn't leave by choice. She asked me to leave for "temporary" 3 month sep.
I never wanted to leave my home.
I'm not sure where I would even begin to develop a plan. And yes, I fear that if I go home she will take the kids and leave.
The reason I clarified Ten was because it seemed, from your post, that you might be under the impression that I literally abandoned my family and left my home by choice.
That's not what happened. The abandonment my w expresses is referring to emotional abandonment and unavailability. For example, when I was really struggling with crippling daily panic attacks I would fight through them while at work but when I came home I would quite often take naps to calm myself down and relieve the symptoms. This obviously caused me to not be able to spend time with her and the children.
As far as me physically leaving my house: not my idea. I made it very clear that I did not want to have a sep.
So leaving was unnatural. Still being at my parents house is unnatural.
But is respecting her need for space the more important and more effective option?
Obviously the sep (her idea) didn't work because it turned from a 3 month to 6 months (again her idea) and ended with her saying: I'm done.
And I'm here scratching my head saying: didn't we agree that after 3 months I'd come home and we'd continue MC and improving?
Sorry man, sounds pretty rough. Maybe the big picture is bigger than you thought and the only way that your M will work out is if the S turned from 3 to 6 months.
Still brutal to deal with. Keep your chin up as best you can.
So you are saying that the abandonment was a result of the anxiety you felt as you would come home and try and take care of yourself during this time.
Okay.
So, let's say that you write out a message indicating you are moving back. What would that message sound like?
Yes Ten. That is exactly what it was. So when my W says she felt like I abandoned her and the kids it was because with depression and anxiety I was having so much trouble being fully present. It wasn't intentional. But it did happen so I do understand why she feels the way she does. And it occurred over a period of a couple years.
But yes, I was trying to take care of myself. There were so many days where I literally could not function because the anxiety effected me so much physically. I would experience queesy stomach, shortness of breath, dizziness, pins and needles, a sense of paranoia. It's scary stuff.
So I would sleep when I got home from work alot to try and alleviate the symptoms.
As far as a message about moving back. I would have no idea how to approach it or where to begin.
The truth of why I want to go home is this: I love my W and my children beyond words. I understand the pain I caused my W and realize that she fell out of love with me and sees no other way out other than divorce because for so long, I became a different person and allowed depression and anxiety to overwhelm me. And even though I started to feel better the last few years, I never realized how much pain I had caused her and hadn't made the proper efforts to see that even though my physical symptoms had subsided, I still continued to remain withdrawn. I felt resentment toward her because I felt she didn't put forth the effort to be there for me and help me through it. And when I started getting better I didn't see her making efforts to reconnect to me so I just continued to withdraw.
But I realize now that it was me who needed to be making the effort to reconnect. I should have understood her pain instead of feeling resentment toward her. I should have been doing what I am doing now two years ago: Looking hard at myself and making a full effort to get myself back to the person I was prior to the depression and anxiety.
I should have started focusing on being the best father I could be. Being a loving husband to my W in the sense of getting back to being fully involved. Spending time with her and the kids. Helping her out with domestic responsibilities.
For so long I blamed her for the problems in our R. I blamed her for not being there for me in my time of need. So even though I got help and the depression went away and I was able, through medication, to manage my panic attacks, I sat around and waited for her to change.
Now that I realize that I am going to lose her forever it has shaken me out of that mindset and made me realize that I have to be the change that I wish to see in our R.
But I've said all of these things to her a million times over the last month or two. For her it is "too little too late". She hates me. Says it shouldn't have taken me realizing that I was going to lose her and the kids to wake up and make the effort.
Am I fully back to the guy I was before all this happened. No, not yet. Am I working my butt off everyday to truly change my behaviors back to what they were prior to this in order to become the person I was for the first 30 years of my life: Absolutely.
But I am stumbling along the way. I'm making mistakes. But I need time. Little by little I am getting there. But I am terrified that it truly is too little too late: Not for my R with my children, but for my R with my W.
I simply want a second chance. A real second chance to win her heart back by showing her that me efforts to get back to my real self are genuine, and they WILL last.
But like I said, TEN, she's heard all of this already. She doesn't care (or at least that's what she says). She says she thinks its great that my R with the kids is so greatly improved but it doesn't matter as far as she is concerned. For her there is no her and I anymore.
So even though I desperately want to go home, I also want to make the choice that will be most effective in bringing me closer to my W.
Right now, she doesn't even want to speak to me. Unless it's about scheduling for seeing the kids she told me to leave her alone and she is not interested in anything I have to say.
I think the self reflection that you have done is amazing. It's clear to me that you have picked yourself up and getting back on track.
You want a second chance to win her back and show her your changes are real and permanent. Okay. She however sounds like she hasn't changed. She still wants NC. She doesn't want you around.
You changed, she hasn't changed her mind.
Now you move back in.
There is also the issue of the brief EA I had last year. At that point in time, we had begun marriage counseling for a few months.
But of course I was still in the wrong mindset. Looking at her to blame and not looking at me.
So I wasn't seeing any effort from her. We weren't being intimate even though I wanted to. Hadn't had sex in over 2 years.
I made the mistake of reconnecting with an ex GF. I am not defending it. It was my fault and I am fully accountable for it. It was brief. Only lasted about 2 weeks and I only met up with her twice. We did kiss. But it did not go beyond that. No sex. I stopped it on my own accord after the second meeting with her because I just couldn't do it.
But my W found out and, rightfully so, was devastated.
So that is another major reason. The depression and anxiety combined with that: She has told me that I broke her heart, betrayed her trust and that there is no recovering from that.
I just wasn't sure if you had looked back far enough in my sich to have been familiar with that part.
But the depression and such seems to be the main reason.
And I really appreciate your compliment on my self reflection. My efforts are real TEN. I'm still stumbling, and yes I realize that there are things my W contributed to our problems as well. But, I am literally only focused 100% on my part. Almost to a fault where some days I cry and do blame myself fully for everything.
I'm going to tell you. I'm a good person. I'm 35 years old now and the last 5 years or so have been very rough. I mean there were alot of other things that factored into our M falling apart. Job loss, financial struggles, underemployment, us having to live with my parents for a year and a half, birth of both our children. Alot of "outside stress factors" that slowly chipped away at both of us.
But up until I was 30, and for the first 8 or 9 years of my R with her, things were pretty darn good. Not perfect. But I never in a million years would have imagined us being where we are now.
I am def focused 100% on me getting back to who I really am. I'm not there yet TEN, but I'm chipping away at it little by little.
But you are correct about my W. She blames me 100% for all of this. I'm not sure if that's how she really feels or if she believes that it is so hopeless and can never be repaired that she is just saying that and acting this way to just push me away and get me out of her life.
But you are right, I am changing. She's not even in the ballpark yet as far as it concerns her and I. She's "moved on".
Having said all of that, you really think I should just move back in?
I'm telling you right now that it will be a s*^tstorm on her end. I have no idea how she will react or what she will do but I don't believe it would be positive.
Anyone else want to chime in on the discussion TEN and I are having?
Cadet and Hopefull: I know you guys have promoted space. I'm doing my dimming plan that you gave the thumbs up to Cadet.
Only reason I'm inquiring about going home is I'm not really sure if she is WAW or is leaning toward WW with this "friend".
I really can't tell. There are signs she is being honest. There's also some shady signs as well
Wouldn't my DB approach, according to Sandi, have to switch to tough love if she is wayward?
I just can't tell. For the moment I think it has to be the dimming plan for a few weeks and reassess.
What should I be looking for to tell if she is becoming WW or if she's telling the truth?
If she's being honest: than I have to stick with lots and lots of space and actions.
If not: than going home I would imagine would be an effective DB method for a WW.
A successful day of DBing. Day 2 of going dim down. Only contact was in regards to kids / finances.
Spent 2 hours at my house with the kids after work this evening. She didn't leave. Kept my interactions with her pleasant and brief and focused 100% on the rugrats.
Exuded confidence and happiness.
What kind of DB would you be doing if you moved back home?
I don't know isn't good enough BEC.
Yeah I know it isn't good enough Ten. What are your thoughts. Any suggestions?
You said that if you went home, your W would go nuclear. But you are going home in the event she is with OM. I just can't figure out the connection with you going home in order to DB against her R with OM.
When there is a case of OM, DB'ing involves detachment. Even moreso if she is a WW.
This is compounded by the fact that you don't even know what you will do if you went home.
I would at least create a solid plan of action and clear up your confusion before going back home. You could do real damage barging in there without a plan to manage yourself. You need a real goal too.
Most LBS's who have to live at home with a WAW in an A fog is a soul destroying experience. I know this first hand! I don't recommend it!
So, having said that. You go home on the assumption she is actively in an A. Sandi's advice about a WW, you would have to implement. When you read it, what are your thoughts on it?
Thanks Ten. That's why I'm having this open discussion because there is absolutely no way I can do it without a plan.
Plus: I really don't know if her friend is an OM or just a friend.
For the moment, I'm not acting on this whole going home thing. Going to do my dimming for a few weeks and reassess.
But I'd like to keep the discussion open.
My parents are in the process of losing their home and are being forced to downsize to a smaller place in the near future.
Going home might not be optional at some point. So I need to start planning for it in advance.
For now: it stays dim and space space space
What I'm still trying to get from this is, what do you hope to accomplish by going home? You are not admitting something to yourself.
By going home, do you feel that you will have more control over the situation?
I thought sandis advice was rock solid. The connection I was drawing between if this friend is more than just that, going home would be a show of being firmer rather than softer: which was how I interpreted sand is differences between WAW and WW.
Just brainstorming.
Well let's continue to brainstorm.
Please elaborate, what do you mean by firmer? Firmer as in showing that if there is an OM you will not accept that?
That's a good question. I'm not sure what it would accomplish. Which is why there is no way I can do it right now because like you said: I would need a plan.
I guess I'm mostly looking for opinions and viewpoints from others: what is my most effective course of action concerning this specific matter.
I have to do some self assessment and figure out what I may not be admitting to myself. Maybe it is that I would feel like I was taking more control back of the situation. I'm not sure which is the clear indication that I can't act on it at this point.
Well let's continue to brainstorm.
Please elaborate, what do you mean by firmer? Firmer as in showing that if there is an OM you will not accept that?
Yes
Ok. Fair enough. But I can only tell you what I did.
I was so confused on what to do, someone on the forum commented that I wanted someone to chew my food for me. I was lost. But in the end, I did what I wanted to do irregardless and it failed miserably. I am a hard headed man and only doing it my way and failing could I have learned.
But after my "fall", I gained clarity. I realized what I had to do. I'm not suggesting you go and blow up the situation just so you can test your theory but I can tell you that right now, in the face of paralyzing confusion, you have to address YOU.
Only getting stronger can you see the clarity of what you need to do. Otherwise, you can learn by experience like me.
Most LBS's who have to live at home with a WAW in an A fog is a soul destroying experience.
This is somewhat true. I'm not suggesting going back or staying away, just understand what the possible outcomes of each will bring. She very well will go nuclear and make things very uncomfortable for you. You just have to decide for yourself if that's something you can handle in a healthy way. Its something you have to live with either way.
I dunno Fogg. My heart goes out to BEC because I remember that confusion. It was horrible. Nothing made sense. No one made any sense. So I acted on my impulse (NG doormat) and it failed miserably.
I've done the same thing. Tried to stand up and not be that doormat and it blew up in my face. I've done the same with boundaries also, tried to do one and just screwed it up because I didn't know what I was doing. You get in that mindset of them respecting you and you standing up for yourself if you do XX. Well, you do it wrong and it only makes things worse for you. Reason I think you have to really consider what may happen. It is very confusing.
Thank you guys. You're input is so appreciated. I'm gaining more clarity and control over myself each day.
I'm def not at the point yet where I have enough to do this.
Plus there is that huge unknown for me: I really cannot tell what the deal with the friend is.
There is enough pointing in either direction. I am trying to view it as objectively as I can. I think I can honestly say that it's not because I want to believe her and am being naive.
But there is alot that points toward she is telling the truth. But I still have some suspicions. So I'm torn.
For now I know it is clear that I need to continue with the dimming approach I'm taking. Respecting NC with the exception of kids / finances.
I even pulled my very first GAL today. Before my backslide last week her and I were possibly going to go out together on Wednesday. Then the backslide happened so obviously us going out was not going to happen.
She usually goes bowling on Wednesday nights but last Wednesday was the last night of the season. I had been going over there at like 4 in the afternoon the last 6 months and she would leave and not come home until 930 or 10. Our kids are young and are in bed by 8.
So the GAL I pulled was when I was communicating with her about the schedule for seeing the kids the next few days I made sure to tell her that on Wednesday I would see them until about 745....because I had plans with some friends so I would not be staying at the house after the kids went to sleep.
I'm going to go out and do something Wednesday night.
And it shows her that....if you don't want to spend time with me than I'm going to go out and do something with friends instead....and I'm not going to be your babysitter anymore. My time with the kids is for me and them....while they are awake.
BEC, even if there was OM involved, you'd still have to detach and go dim. I doubt anyone would recommend you move back into home if an OM was confirmed unless you were trying to assert your rights as a father for D proceedings.
25years Post check out the above from a very veteran poster.
BEC, even if there was OM involved, you'd still have to detach and go dim. I doubt anyone would recommend you move back into home if an OM was confirmed unless you were trying to assert your rights as a father for D proceedings.
I think it is becoming clearer and clearer to me through this conversation what the better choice is for right now.
Stay away.
25years Post check out the above from a very veteran poster.
This was a great read
Thanks Ten.
Good luck BEC. I'm cheering for you all the way.
Good luck BEC. I'm cheering for you all the way.
Thanks Ten. I'm cheering for all of us. Because this really really [censored] LOL
Ok. So today is day 3 of going dim. After my setback on Friday, before I started this new approach, I had expressed to her how much I loved her and asked her to please give me time. That I was aware of the pain I caused her and was working diligently on myself. I asked her to please not define me by the last few years and to try and remember the true me. I asked her to please continue to think about giving us a second chance and that I would respect her need for space.
That was 3 days ago. She knows how I feel. She knows I'm asking her not to file and that I am fully aware of my role in all of this and that I'm working my tail off on me. She had expressed to me that pretty much every time I was making any progress with her that I did something to set it back. That if I wanted to change than change and stop making mistakes. So my approach was: his is how I feel and it's time for me to stop making mistakes. Just give me more time.
After that is when I immediately implemented going dim to the 180s that have been working for me. My plan is to do this for 30 days and reasses. The dimming aspect is that I am shutting my mouth and letting my actions speak for me.
Only contact initiation has been for kids scheduling and finances. I'm also pulling away from her by the following:
If she texts me about anything other than kids (unless an emergency) don't even respond. If it's about kids but not time sensitive, wait an hour or so to answer back.
Let her know I'm GAL: did this by communicating to her during kid scheduling that I had plans Wednesday night so would be leaving at a certain time from being with the kids. I kept it vague.
Still keeping all my interactions positive but brief. She didn't leave the house yesterday for the 2 hours I was there with the kids. I exuded happiness and confidence and was polite and all smiles. She even sat in the same room and read a book while I played with our S.
When it came time for me to leave, I pleasantly, with a smile, said goodnight and left.
This morning when she texted me at 730 to ask if dropping off my D with me at 930 was ok, I waited an hour before answering her back.
Was pleasant when she dropped her off.
She's exuding anger. So we'll see how all this goes. I'm trying to see if I combine my successful 180s with pulling back and respecting her space but at the same time start to detach and make myself slightly unavailable if she will actually hold off on taking any filing action and actually observe my actions.
So far, it kind of seems to be bothering her that I wasn't immediately available to answer her texts right away this morning. Hoping that her attitude of it bothering her is the start of my attempt to flip the tables a bit: stop chasing her and give her what she's asking for but at the same time let my positive actions and changes continue to show.
The idea being that if I continue showing positive change and keep my mouth shut and stop having setbacks, and pull away a bit, maybe she'll slowly start to push toward me instead of running.
So far so good but obviously it's only day 3.
You mention about letting her know you are GAL. As far as I can tell, the purpose of GAL is for YOU. It isn't to prove to HER that you have other things to do. It's to prove to YOU that you CAN live a functional, happy life without HER. So I don't understand why "flaunting" these kinds of things to her is a part of your goals/structure.
I'd also recommend to expand the GAL type stuff you are doing - take kids for ice cream by yourself, take them swimming, start a project of some kind, etc. ideally you'll meet new friends and develop your own social circles, but starting with your kids isn't a bad place either.
Only reason I mentioned it was because before my setback we were possibly going to go out together Wednesday night. But after the setback she made it clear that wasn't happening. It wasn't meant to rub it in her face it was just letting her know that I'm going to go out anyway. Maybe not the best approach but I'm still learning.
BEC. Those were an awesome 3 days.
Keep going!
Slight slip yesterday. Got baited into a slight R talk but recovered. Good day today.
Went to my house to hang with the kids from 4-8. Wife left during this timeframe.
Stayed upbeat and pleasant around her.
She came home around 745 and I put my son to bed around 815. When I went downstairs to leave I reminded myself: “Brief and positive”.
She was sitting on the couch in the living room and I just popped in and said in a very polite way: “Ok. Same bat time same bat channel tomorrow?”
She didn’t even look up at me and in a very cold manner just said “Yup”. I didn’t let it rattle me. I just said, again in an upbeat manner “Ok. Goodnight. See you tomorrow afternoon” and I turned around to walk out.
As I was walking away she said “Oh wait”. So I stopped and turned around and she told me that my son has off from school on Monday and asked if I would want him and our daughter to have a sleepover at my parents house with me. Of course she looked at me and made eye contact when she was asking for this.
I didn’t quite know how to handle it so again in a polite and brief way I just said “We’ll see. But either way, if he is off on Monday I’d certainly like to spend the whole day with both of them on Monday”. (Monday is my day off).
So her response to me saying that if not I wanted to spend the whole day with them on Monday was to respond to me in the meanest tone possible and said “We’ll see”.
I didn’t take the bait. I simply staid brief and positive and with a smile on my face said “Ok. Goodnight. See you tomorrow at 4.” Turned around and left.
How did I handle myself? I honestly am not interested in the kids staying over and yes it is because I’m tired of being her babysitter. I spend a ton of time with my children because I love them, am a good father and want to. But I'm tired of being bullied by her and supporting her new social life of which she wants no part of me being.
What should I do concerning this. I’m sure she’s going to ask again. Do I say yes? If not, what do I say?
I’d just like to know the most effective manner in which to handle this whole sleepover deal.
Thanks everyone.
I'm being pretty consistent these last several days in going dim but continuing my 180s of being the best version of myself as man, father and even husband.
I just am tired of being treated like total crap by her when I know fullwell that we are not where we are 100% because of me.
I've grown so much these last few months, as all of us here in the land of misfit toys do. And once you do a true self assessment and are able to focus on your role in the demise of the relationship and actively start to correct those behaviors and simultaneously forgive your spouse for their behaviors, it becomes tiresome being their punching bag.
But I guess that is part of what we DBers do. I remember reading somewhere on here that so much of DBing is self reflection and self improvement. And after a period of time, when your changes become permanent and consistent you have successfully removed all the reasons your spouse wanted a D to begin with. So at that point in time their complaints are not longer relevant which (hopefully) forces them to realize that any anger or resentment they are still holding onto is on them. Not us.
God, I'm just tired of being a punching bag. I would never treat her the way she is treating me. EVER.
First off your actions and responses have been DB gold material. Congrats BEC. What a change you have made in yourself. Pat yourself on the back man.
It's not being a punching bag. Men keep their cool in the face of adversity and that's what you have done. If you don't believe me, consider your behavior if you acted the opposite.
I'm a fiery and emotional guy by nature and one of the biggest changes I can see in myself is my ability to hold my temper in check.
I literally have not raised my voice or been combative with her in I don't know how long.
I'm so thankful to all of you here on this forum. You have been my rock and I wish I could meet each and every one of you to give you all a big hug.
So what are everyone's thoughts on this whole sleepover thing. Like I said, it has nothing to do with me not wanting to spend time with my kids. I spend alot of time with them.
I'm just tired of doing every single thing her way. I have been steamrolled and basically lied to these last 6 months. She completely backed out of her promise we agreed to 6 months ago. I was supposed to go home on February 9th so we could begin to reconcile after a 3 month cooling period.
Yet here I am and it became "I'm done. You put me through hell. F You. I couldn't care less about you....etc" The anger is tremendous in her.
That's another question I have. Is the anger she is showing any sign of 180s starting to have an impact upon her? I guess what I mean is I am slowly becoming everything she wanted me to be again. And when she is cruel to me, I take it in stride and don't lose my cool.
I just wonder if there are any stages or signs the WAS shows as they are processing what they are witnessing. Is anger a good sign? A bad sign? Nothing at all?
First off your actions and responses have been DB gold material. Congrats BEC. What a change you have made in yourself. Pat yourself on the back man.
It's not being a punching bag. Men keep their cool in the face of adversity and that's what you have done. If you don't believe me, consider your behavior if you acted the opposite.
Ten. Thanks man. I was really proud of how I handled today. I didn't even have to fight the urge to snap back. It was just natural. I was truly calm. Of course when I got back to my parents house I was a little upset. But not in an anger way. It was just hurtful. But she never saw any of that.
Well. Pretty good day today. Minor slip up but not with any consequences.
I calmly and briefly asked my W if she had filed. She did not get upset with me and told me that no she did not. I thanked her for not getting upset about me asking and for us not making a big issue of it.
Other than that, positive and upbeat. Even that "conversation" was literally brief and to the point. No emotions. Just a question. An answer. And a thanks for letting me know and not getting upset.
One thing I'm having alot of trouble with is thoughts of this male friend of hers. I've been very forthright here on the boards about the role I played in the demise of our marriage. And have fully disclosed about the very brief EA that I had with an ex last May. It lasted only about a week or so. I met up with her twice. I did kiss her, but there was nothing physical beyond that. But I stopped it after the second meeting because I knew what I was doing was wrong and didn't want it to progress any further. My W found out and was, rightfully, devastated.
This betrayal of trust, along with my depression, are her main reasons she is where she is at today.
She swears that this friend of hers is nothing more. There is a part of me that believes her and thinks that maybe the worst case scenario is that he is a good guy that she could possibly be seeing greener pastures with. She's even said things like "Do you think if I was doing anything that I would ever have him around the kids?" I've asked her about this guy like 4 times and she has stayed consistent. It is also a topic that I absolutely cannot approach again because it is a cheeseless tunnel and it would probably be the last straw for her. She even blew up on me once and screamed at me that "I'm not the one who did those things. You were. I don't want to be with anyone and probably never will want to be with anyone ever again because of how much you f'ed me up".
But there is just something in my gut that thinks she is lying.
My honest self assessment is this: Even if she is lying and there is some kind of EA or PA going on: If I am successful at DBing and my wife chooses to want to try and reconcile, I would forgive her for it (if it is true) because I want her to forgive me for what I did. It would be hypocritical for me not to.
I just want us to be together. To be happy like I know we can.
But I'm having alot of trouble dealing with this added wrench and I'm conflicted if I should believe her or not.
She could be telling the truth. She could be lying. She could be making it seem like there is something going on because she seems like she is at a point where she is so angry with me she wants to punish me.
I'm never going to bring it up again because when she told me the "I'll probably never want to be with anyone ever again" I truly believed her in that moment. And I made a promise that I would trust her and never mention it again.
What to do? What to do?
Honestly, I've been going through something similar, and the way I see it, there is NOTHING to be gained by thinking about it.
The way I see it, you have a choice to make now: "can I forgive my W if she is having a PA with this guy?" If the answer is "yes" then just assume that your W is sleeping with him now.
You need to take this journey for you now and she will take her journey. If she decides she wants to reconcile later, then you look through all of the carnage in your respective wakes and decide how you want to deal with it. But you can't live your life watching her every move to see if she's possibly sleeping with this guy because it will stop you from being able to move forward with the important parts of the process.
Honestly, I've been going through something similar, and the way I see it, there is NOTHING to be gained by thinking about it.
The way I see it, you have a choice to make now: "can I forgive my W if she is having a PA with this guy?" If the answer is "yes" then just assume that your W is sleeping with him now.
You need to take this journey for you now and she will take her journey. If she decides she wants to reconcile later, then you look through all of the carnage in your respective wakes and decide how you want to deal with it. But you can't live your life watching her every move to see if she's possibly sleeping with this guy because it will stop you from being able to move forward with the important parts of the process.
My answer would be "yes". I would forgive her. Not sure I like the idea of assuming that she is sleeping with him in order to be able to move forward. But I get and understand your point.
I'd like to stop snooping, because I am, and I'd like to be able to take the mindset of: just trust her, continue to focus on solutions, grow and improve, be the better option and if we reconcile and it turns out she way lying than I will forgive her.
Either way, I have to mentally get past this in order to keep moving in a positive direction.
I'm making some headway. The fact that I know she has not filed is huge. It's been exactly one month since she dropped that final bomb in that counseling session and has said she can't do this and is done. It's been 10 days since, yes through snooping, I discovered the "divorce survival" worksheet and the checkbook with a $3,500 deposit intended for "lawyer".
But I'm staying consistent. Sure I've had some slipups. But she knows how much I care for her. How much I acknowledge my role and the pain I caused. And my 180s of being the best man, father and husband I can be are genuine and consistent.
She could have filed for divorce at any time she wanted to in the last month. But she hasn't. That has to stand for something right?
Another thing that has to be a point in a somewhat positive direction is that when she told me that she hasn't filed I did say that I assumed that meant she was still thinking about things. She said that she had told me she would think about it (giving us a chance) and that yes, that is what she was still doing.
Forgot to mention that. Again it was very brief and just to the point. Non-emotional.
So that has to be a good thing I would imagine.
I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. Giving her space. Treating her with respect and distant love. Been going to my house everyday after work an spending 4-8 with my kids. Having great interactions with them. She's been leaving during that timeframe but I see her in the front end and on the back end. So she's having brief positive interactions with me. She's seeing brief snippets of how I am as a father. I'm working my tail off and continuing to fully support my family financially. I help her out around the house while I'm there and she isn't.
These are all of the things I used to do and are my key 180s: being a man who is a loving, attentive and helpful husband and father.
Her not having filed for a month now and her continuing to give time and thought has got to mean something positive.
I guess my point was that if you think you can forgive her in the future for a PA, then it doesn't really matter RIGHT NOW if she is actually having a PA or not. All you will do is drive yourself crazy looking for it and thinking about it, and there are so many better ways to expend that energy. Take the focus off what she may or may not be doing and instead put it on you and the things under your control.
Also, I wouldn't pay too much attention to whether she filed or not. I worry that by bringing it up over and over, it will come across as trying to control the situation and her. Even if she files, there's a long time to go until the actual divorce. And ultimately, the divorce is just a piece of paper - there's no rule that says you can't turn right around and get married again.
Good points Matt. I understand your advice. Keep the focus on my changes and just let her alone on any "us" talk. I'm getting better and better at it everyday.
BECLem-reading up on your sitch and i have a similar sitch. Im not sure if W is in a EA or not, but i have come to the conclusion that whether or not she is in one shouldnt matter to me and how i am going to change. it really hard not to think about it though. I think about it everytime i see W texting or receiving a text from someone, but i try to tell myself that it has nothing to do with you. this is so hard and i am hoping we can all become better people in the end and hopefully everything else will work itself out.
Nick
Guys I think I've been barking up the wrong tree. Wife blew up on me today. Called me a liar and shady.
She doesn't trust me at all. She knows I've been snooping (which I need to stop immediately). Brought up my EA from last year.
I think she's telling the truth: it's me that needs to regain her trust.
Please help me with ways I can regain her trust. She hates me.
Not sure exactly how to help.
What exactly happened today...?
What has prompted her to call you a liar and shady? Did you snoop when you were at the house? If you snooped on FB, there is a way for her to see who is checking her page (so I have been advised). Here's the thing, is what she's saying Memorex or the real deal?
If you've not lied or done anything shady, then I suspect she's angry about something and is projecting what she is planning to do or has done in the past. You can't take on her load of issues. You can only own your half of issues.
As for hating you, that's right now...however, when she needs something from you, she'll get her act together and change her tune w/her behavior. She'll either get over it or burst a blood vessel. Let her stand there and stomp her feet like a 2 yr old wanting attention...it's not your problem to fix for her.
How can you regain her trust...quit the snooping and continue as you have been. Keep consistent w/your dbing techniques and do not allow what she says to knock you off your path. Try not to react to the things she's spewing. Sometimes it is done to catch you off guard and have you come back at her. The easiest thing to say is "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then either hang up the phone, end the text message or walk away.
Stay the course. Actions speak louder than words.
P.S. You need to start a new thread! Thought I'd tell you before Cadet comes a calling. LOL!
We had some talks throughout the day just clarifying where we are at. That I want a chance. That she is going to think about it. That there's no one else and it's a dead issue.
When I got to my house at 4 to be with kids I approached her just to make sure we were on the same page. As the conversation progressed I had told her that I didn't want to do anything to push her away through this process.
She lost her temper and told me to stop going through her things (which I have been doing). She basically blew up. Yelling at me. Telling me that I'm a liar. That I'm shady. That as each day goes by the chances of her giving us another chance become less and less. That I'm the one who betrayed her "51 weeks ago".
Guys, I'm drowning here. And fast. The reason I think I've been barking up the wrong tree is because I've been so focused on the wrong thing.
She doesn't trust me.
Well, I honestly can't blame her for not trusting you if you've been going through her things. I certainly wouldn't have liked that either. Leave her things alone! You can't earn her trust doing such things. She deserves her privacy as much as you do. Whack! Whack! That's my ruler hitting the blackboard to draw your attention to a behavior you need to change.
I want you to read and re-read what I'm about to post...stop having discussions w/her about the relationship and where it's at right now and if you are on the same page. The more you do this, the more you are pressuring her and she will file just to get you off her back. You are justifying to her why she needs to divorce you each and every time you talk to her about the relationship, as well as snooping. Don't give her any more justifications to think about divorcing you.
Get back to the db basics. You want to come across as a strong, independent and confident man. From what you posted, to her, you are looking like a needy and whiny man who will go to any lengths to spy on her. Learn to respect her privacy and give her the space and time she needs.
Again, cease the conversations about the relationship, where you are at right now in the relationship and on the same page. Stop giving her justifications for what she's doing or for wanting a divorce.
To earn her trust, you'll need to cease the spying and leave her things alone when you at the house. Again, actions speak louder than words. NO MORE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP!
Not to pile on, but consistency is KING here. You can't DB for 5 days at a time. This process will take months. You can't totally change things every 3-5 days or it totally undermines the progress you've made.
Read the 37 rules.
Read them again.
Read them again.
Read them again.
How many have you broken today?
DBing has to become a way of life for you. The changes you make are for you and not to win your wife back. Those changes must become a permanent part of your life.
To help you, put a rubber band on your wrist. When you get the urge to do something such as snooping or having discussions about the relationship, snap that band and let that sting bring you back to reality...that reality is staying the course, i.e., dbing!
What has prompted her to call you a liar and shady? Did you snoop when you were at the house? If you snooped on FB, there is a way for her to see who is checking her page (so I have been advised). Here's the thing, is what she's saying Memorex or the real deal?
If you've not lied or done anything shady, then I suspect she's angry about something and is projecting what she is planning to do or has done in the past. You can't take on her load of issues. You can only own your half of issues.
As for hating you, that's right now...however, when she needs something from you, she'll get her act together and change her tune w/her behavior. She'll either get over it or burst a blood vessel. Let her stand there and stomp her feet like a 2 yr old wanting attention...it's not your problem to fix for her.
How can you regain her trust...quit the snooping and continue as you have been. Keep consistent w/your dbing techniques and do not allow what she says to knock you off your path. Try not to react to the things she's spewing. Sometimes it is done to catch you off guard and have you come back at her. The easiest thing to say is "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then either hang up the phone, end the text message or walk away.
Stay the course. Actions speak louder than words.
P.S. You need to start a new thread! Thought I'd tell you before Cadet comes a calling. LOL!
Thanks Job. Yes she caught me snooping. And yes, as I've disclosed on this board from the get go I was unfaithful a year ago in a brief EA. I'll start a new thread.
She told me I needed to stop being an a-hole
BEC. Been contemplating your thread for a couple of days now.
Maybe your 180 is about your relationship with anxiety.
BEC
Its like touching a hot skillet huh? You know its hot .. you know its gonna hurt .. but you do it anyways.
You are to much into her head ... to much about her .. the things you are doing she does not buy ... its a trick to get her back into a miserable marriage and with your nonstop pressure and temp checking 'to see if you are on the same page' its not making you attractive .. you are appearing needy and weak and as a guy ... yeah .. stop that.
I wonder if your approaching her, asking constantly is more about your own insecurities ... and dude .. I get that .. its a real ego deflater to 1 have your W leave you .. and 2 constantly thinking if this 'friend' is OM or a friend ... my guess, maybe he is friend zoned, but they way you keep sabotaging yourself he might start appearing to be someone she can rely on ... and that's how it starts .... so your fear is actually fueling this OM truck that is motoring down the road.
"51 weeks"
Back in May13 I sent a TM to my W that was meant for a friend ... was nothing really but W was certain it was an EA, I dropped all contact ... like you ... paid my price .. but W never got over it, like we have learned here sometimes we need anger to fuel us past certain points ... well my W used that anger to fuel into a A with OM, tit for tat ... I brought a knife and she had a nuke, They call them exit affairs ... the WAW figures the A is the only way out and jumps at it. You are at a critical spot if your W has not yet gone EA/PA .... because if and when she does ... get ready for a much longer ride than you have ever wanted.
So take the advice ... and Stop the temp check ... I would not even talk about any R related matters for 90 days. DB your tail off and then see where you are.