I have a close friend who has lived a plane ride away for the last few years in a premium holiday location. He called tonight to tell me to take leave in a few weeks because he is flying me up there for a few days. We talked about it a few weeks ago, and I never got back to him with dates as I had promised.
*Way back then*, and a particularly bad day, was the first time I had spoken to him since BD. Today I was positively cheerful when we spoke. It even made me feel guilty for his offer to fly me up there which was based on his perception of last time we spoke that I was a total mess.
The truth is I still am. I had to vent earlier on Huddy’s thread because of the realisation that whilst my M was in a bad way, the OM that medicated my W away from her family is a heartless predator. My W confided in a “friend”, exposing her vulnerability. So her “friend” introduced her to her temporary VISA holding nephew from the Ukraine, and suggested she show him around. There are more details which illuminate his deceitful seduction of my W, but it is not really important. If I am still posting in a few years I will reveal the inevitable outcome.
Despite this hiccup, overall it was a great day.
I got the tentative go ahead from the bank to buy my W out of the family home. There are potential bugs in this whole deal, but on the whole I think it is done. I am going to keep my house as the sole owner
. She is pushing hard to sell. This sits much better with.
I went on my daily pilgrimage to the ocean, wild, windy, cold. On the way I couldn’t stop talking to my W in my head. Which isn’t unusual. I got angry at myself. “Just stop this.” Lately the conversation is a rehearsal of what I will say to her when she tries to open up to me.
This is what I mean about “letting go” of the outcome. There is no reason to believe she ever will open up to me, so why do I waste my time thinking about what I might say to her. In general I want to tell her that it is not that simple. While she has been running around with OM, I have grown. I know what my problems are and I am working on them. I also understand better what it is that I truly want in a R. And THAT simply didn't exist in ours. I have NOT been simply waiting around for her.
I don’t want what we had. I am willing to discuss and work on these things together but I don’t believe she is genuinely ready for that. She is still medicating. Yardy YArda.
Then I think at least make this real Py. How will I act/react tomorrow night when I drop the girls off after my midweek visit. I want to be happy, light hearted. I haven’t even contemplated digging about the OM, the R, etc. for at least a month. This is a huge step in itself. I acknowledge how far I have come. How would I react if she asked “why I am so happy. You seem to be OK with this situation now.” This came up in another thread (Heart14?) somewhere. More useless rehearsal.
I get to the beach. Sit on the sand. And I am just smiling as I see the rainbow across the sky to the East. To the West there is a lone guy walking along the beach and I smile again. Then it hits me. The truth. All I have to tell her If she asks is the truth.
“I kinda like being single.”
There are so many things I can do now, that I never could before. There are so many things that are not dragging me down that were in the M. Sure, they are my problems as well that I have work on. But I am. For the first time in my life I feel like I am growing. I am in control and there is a future me, not just a future circumstance that I happen to be in.
One example is that I needed her to need me. I needed her approval. I needed her to want me. I took this way to far, to unhealthy levels, but as a desire to have in a R - this is not too much to ask.
Your partner should make you feel special and wanted. Maybe she genuinely didn't feel that way and so it was time to move on. Maybe she did and if I had’ve reacted more constructively, maturely, then we could have resolved our problems then. We didn’t. She didn’t. I didn’t. And this is where we are.
I forgive you. I will regress and be sad and angry and hate you. But for the first time I feel OK with it in my heart that I am not betraying myself at all to feel this way and say it out loud. I forgive you. And you know what else. I love you. And at least for this moment that doesn't tear me apart to feel that way. It is comforting.
Link to all threads
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=36973
I forgive you. I will regress and be sad and angry and hate you. But for the first time I feel OK with it in my heart that I am not betraying myself at all to feel this way and say it out loud. I forgive you. And you know what else. I love you. And at least for this moment that doesn't tear me apart to feel that way. It is comforting.
^^^That my friend is some powerful words.
Its an even better feeling NDY. I feel quiet inside. For the first time. My head and heart are not racing with anxiety. It is ~2.30AM here, but I dont want to sleep and lose this. I feel confident that it will come back again more often.
Thanks to everyone here without whom none of this would have been possible. It is truly heartwarming that such goodwill exists in the world. A bunch of strangers online that I feel to be my best friends and confidants.
Its an even better feeling NDY. I feel quiet inside. For the first time. My head and heart are not racing with anxiety. It is ~2.30AM here, but I dont want to sleep and lose this. I feel confident that it will come back again more often.
Thanks to everyone here without whom none of this would have been possible. It is truly heartwarming that such goodwill exists in the world. A bunch of strangers online that I feel to be my best friends and confidants.
I feel good for you man. I'm glad you feel this way. Very powerful stuff. Keeping up the momentum is the secrete. I feel more of an inner calm. A sense that everything will be just fine. I don't need her. I don't despair at her antics any more. It simply doesn't bother me.
I also agree that the human village is a truly wonderful thing. How you can confide in and be friends with someone you have never met, and most likely never will but we all wish each other the best and give each other a virtual hug whether the news is good or bad. Have a nice night mate and keep up the PMA.
That was a great read Pyrite. I feel like I'm starting to reach a similar place myself.
I can wholeheartedly recommend it
I think it was just a magic day where things came together for me. I know from experience that I will backslide, but honestly I can't see myself going back to where I was and staying there for any protracted length of time.
thanks for stopping by.
Way to go buddy! Mr Ukraine will lose interest when he gets his visa. Then what? Will W come back? Who knows, but it'll be on your terms. That's got to give you a sense of satisfaction, right?
Have a good one pal. Check in tomorrow.
Thanks Huddy.
I wouldn't say I don't care, but it isn't my focus. She might. It is hard to see her softening from the position she spits at me now that she HAD to get out of our "toxic marriage"(Rewriting history). But who knows.
I think a lot of this is stemming from my "resolution" with the house. I feel that I have some certainty in the future. Its not the future I was (am/will be) running around in pain, admonishing what was taken away from me, BUT it is my real *future*. And I can live with it. I can see myself in the house, with the girls.
One of the "bugs" in this deal is still the re-location issue I have talked about before. I may have to live for a few years in the negotiated re-location area. But I don't see this being a long term thing. When the girls are a bit older, the reality is that the re-location area is on my way to work almost. When they get to high school, well anything could happen by then.
*future* - apart from the above I feel a renewed appreciation for Cadets linked lighthouse story.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619No doubt because it is the actual house now.
Even so, she might want to comeback. She might not. I might be available/interested. I might not. I at least won't be in the spot that I am now.
Apart from bitching about our Ss, logistics, venting, stories etc, I/we/all of us talk about what is wrong with us, what we have to "fix". In the *future* where ^^^ is going to happen, I will be that person. Cadet is right my S has "GIVEN ME THIS GIFT OF TIME", to achieve all of those things and renew my appreciation of life. And in this *future* any of those ^^^ outcomes will be OK.
Now we just have to get there
Pyrite, how wonderful to hear about your inner calm. I think this is the most important part of letting go, open to reconciliation but not waiting. Knowing we are going to be ok for now and the future.
It would be unrealistic for us to be out of our 'mess' completely.
For you to see that the old M and your old interaction with your W is not where you want to be is very Cathartic and stabilising.
I am beginning to drop my rose tinted glasses and see the negative dynamics H and I had. However, I am not I the place yet where I am truly detached.
we will be OK Smothy. I'm sure of it
I'm glad to hear you sounding much more relaxed than the other day. if you start to wind yourself up again please remember to take it easy on yourself and press the reset button.
Way to go Pyrite. Good to see you're at a good place right now.
25 posted on Huddy's thread..
Do the 180s and do NOT monitor for results til at least 90 days have passed. If there are signs of her changing anything before then, you'll see much more by NOT staring at her waiting...
I can't be sure if 25 will get to this, being in such demand and all, so I will just rant.
Its probably not 90 days since I did a genuine 180. To be honest I don't think I have even yet accomplished the 180 I need to do to have any effect at all. I stopped pursuing nearly 4 months ago. I stopped any R-ish talk ~3 months ago. I haven't responded angrily at her in ~2 months.
In terms of 180s she can see - this is it. In that time, she has only moved further away. She has upped her EA to a full blown PA, she is pushing to sell the house etc. Another 90 days will see he on the other side of town, in her own house - possibly living with OM. How can I possibly be confident in 180s having any affect?
The "math" is "consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
The problem is she is not looking for change to believe in. She has found change in new relationship with OM.
Elsewhere was a quote I can't find right now, basically about 180s being for you. This is fair enough. Basically what I am resigned to now anyway. But it still hurts.
I imagine I am in for a long wait to see ANY changes. Basically OM has to disappear first. Even then she may indeed feel her new life is better anyway. I know I can't predict the future so it is useless trying. Nonetheless the closest scenario I can see to ever bringing my family back together is that she bottoms out following departure of OM. I do know her, and I imagine that she won't consider R with me an option that is available to her. I am not saying that it is absolutely certain either. I have always believed that we owe it to the "family" to at least try.
So - As I have posted before I still have a very good relationship with MIL. If anything she will be around in a few years time to present this option to W. She has been there for me over the last few months, but recently I dont know if I should be "going dark" with there as well OR it would actually be a potentially good thing for her to know that I am open to reconciliation, even if it is in x years time. In reality I could even be re-married and have more kids by then. It's also NOT like i am leaking stuff to the W. Her mother is too afraid to mention the marriage. She gets yelled at if she does.
So what do people think? Where do I draw the line? I have to keep it from her that I am not opposed to reconciliation, even now after OM. W would interpret it wrong way. So who else do I intentionally keep it from. So far I haven't advertised it. With mutual friends I have just avoided saying much at all really.
Hi Pyrite
That's a difficult one, just starting the process, as you know. At the minute, I don't want W - she's treating me so badly. What I want is W back as she was. Will she come back? I don't know. How long do you wait? What are we expecting to see; what are the signs? Just too many unknowns for us LBH's to ponder, so, that's where the rules come in, I suppose.
We can't change them, we can't control them. We have to do what's right for us.
I'm having a bit of a down afternoon. I know that W holds the 'kid card' right now, and I seem to be losing that battle. I've worked out my income and expenses and I'll really struggle to see them if W carries out her plan. I can't tell W as, in her current state, she won't care.
Sandi - thoughts for us Py and me?
I we can get Sandi2 to chip in that would be amazing as Py and I's sitch's are very very similar.
The three amigos need help!
SANDI - WHERE ARE YOU! THE GUYS NEED YOU!
That's a difficult one, just starting the process, as you know. At the minute, I don't want W - she's treating me so badly. What I want is W back as she was. Will she come back? I don't know. How long do you wait? What are we expecting to see; what are the signs? Just too many unknowns for us LBH's to ponder, so, that's where the rules come in, I suppose.
We can't change them, we can't control them. We have to do what's right for us.
I'm having a bit of a down afternoon. I know that W holds the 'kid card' right now, and I seem to be losing that battle. I've worked out my income and expenses and I'll really struggle to see them if W carries out her plan. I can't tell W as, in her current state, she won't care.
Sandi - thoughts for us Py and me?
hey Huddy & NDY,
I'm no vet but I think it is great to see you NOT wanting her back Huddy. It sounds to me like progress. We go to and fro on this as time passes and we "grow"/detach. Be careful (I suspect you know anyway) about wanting her back the way she *was*. I know what you mean - but you are likely to be back in 6 months if that were the case. You want the improved version I suspect.
There is a section in DR about "the signs". But these are probably more appropriate to at least you being under the same roof. In my case these signs are not visible.
I have been scared about the kids issue this whole time. After talking to legal aid though I am more confident that although I would be clawing my way back in court, a judge would have to agree that it I was unfit to be allowed my rights. These including that my consent is required to move the kids to another school, major decisions etc. HOWEVER, this is still no certainty. The judge can make any order that h/she sees as being in the interests of the kids and workable. h/she doesn't really care about stepping on anyones toes.
Down afternoons. Plenty of them my friend. Enjoy your evening. Little things can change the day in a second.
Sorry, should revise Pyrite. Sure, don't mean exactly what she was. That was old M with old W. Now need new M with improved H and W!
In terms of 180s she can see - this is it. In that time, she has only moved further away. She has upped her EA to a full blown PA, she is pushing to sell the house etc. Another 90 days will see he on the other side of town, in her own house - possibly living with OM. How can I possibly be confident in 180s having any affect?
The "math" is "consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
I am not 25 or Sandi however I will take a stab at this.
#1 - Have you read up on affairs and affair busting?
One of the methods is that the affair needs to run its full course, with NO needs being met by anyone else.
Somehow in my observations those engaging in crazy affairs dont get their needs met by their affair partner either.
At that point they may start looking elsewhere or possibly back to their original partner.
This is not something that happens overnight or in a month or two.
So on to point
#2 - what is sufficient time as mentioned by 25?
I can say it is not a few months,
I would say 2 years minimum, but it could be way longer.
Their are no guarantees here.
Each person has free will, and there may be other issues
that are much more deep rooted that can take way longer to resolve.
If it is MLC then the person must literally "grow up".
How long does it take for your children to "grow up" ?
Can you give them a pill or a magic button?
Same thing can happen in MLC.
Depends on their childhood wounding and whether they want to face it or continue to run away.
This is why we think the best advice is to focus on self!
Hope that helps.
Thanks Cadet- it surely does help and I greatly value your advice.
2 years minimum - well that squarely places us in the self-focus zone doesn't it.
I have read about affair busting - but apart from what you quoted it sensate seem to offer anything else. It is crazy affair but OM has a vested interest in maintaining relationship with a "citizen" for 2-3 years.
Do you have an opinion on what I asked about MIL in that same post?
Thanks Cadet
2 years minimum - well that squarely places us in the self-focus zone doesn't it.
Thanks Cadet
^^ This. I'm a year into this from her perspective (her PA is only 15 days short of a year, not sure how long the EA went on before she moved up a gear). So where will I be in another year? I really don't know, but it won't be here.
Do you have an opinion on what I asked about MIL in that same post?
In your specific case, no, since you know it much better than I do.
In general blood is almost always thicker than water,
I have seen it go both ways, in my own case my in laws are the source of the problems IMHO, I always had a good relationship with them, for 25 years, then when I was no longer needed(by wife) they no longer needed me either.
I have seen other long term marriages where their is still a good relationship with the in-laws, although the couple is divorced.
So I guess I would say keep an open mind, and do what works.
it really emphasises "marathon not a sprint". I admire your tenacity NDY.
it really emphasises "marathon not a sprint". I admire your tenacity NDY.
Thank you.
Thanks for your input. If anything my R with inlaws is better now than ever. Months ago, before I came here I sent them a letter saying basically this same thing "blood is thicker than water", at some point our relationship will have to dissappear as you turn to support your daughter. But to my amazement - so far this hasn't happened. Probably because she won't let them in. She doesn't want to admit to the A. Hence moving to the other side town is a big drawcard for W.
so - my hope months ago was that just like Sandi's WW thread(s), she knows it is wrong and this would turn her around. but that doesn't seem to be happening and she is eager to facilitate the R with OM by selling the house.
I was going to stall on selling, but now I am thinking it is better for ME to buy her out and send her on her merry way.
I am thinking it is better for ME to buy her out and send her on her merry way.
YES!
If you can!
so - my hope months ago was that just like Sandi's WW thread(s), she knows it is wrong and this would turn her around. but that doesn't seem to be happening and she is eager to facilitate the R with OM by selling the house.
I was going to stall on selling, but now I am thinking it is better for ME to buy her out and send her on her merry way.
Hi Py
This of course is your choice. I've been to that table several times now, and each time we go round in circles. But, once I stepped of the roller coaster, and with a few choice posts on this very board I decided that I will only make decisions based on logic and not emotions. I'm only glad that nothing has happened long enough for me to get on an even keel or I would really have regretted some of the choices i 'could' have made.
does that mean you chose NOT to buy her out? why was that?
does that mean you chose NOT to buy her out? why was that?
Not quite. I can't afford our house on my own but she can if I accept a reduced share of the equity. The law here is very specific where a) no one party is allowed to profit from the D and b) the equity (in the case of a buy out) is the net value of the property and NOT what you think it will sell for. She was hoping I would accept the current 'selling' average for properties of our type in our area. Problem is that I work in that field and have access to incredible amounts of data so I completely disagree that I should take a reduced cut for both those reasons. However not so long ago I would have done just that.
thanks for the reply - i hope we have that law re:valuation in place here. if true it will work in my favour. i.e. Agents quotes are always excessive compared to say bank valuation. And generally what the house "might" sell for. Depending on the economic sitch, the banks are usually conservative. So I can always pull the law out on her. Ironic that I want to pay the W the reduced cut where as thats exactly what you dont want.
I really want to do this. There are still some hiccups to work out but I would love to be the sole owner of our family house while W runs off into the sunset with Mr. Ukraine to the other side of town from all our friends and family.
thanks for the reply - i hope we have that law re:valuation in place here. if true it will work in my favour. i.e. Agents quotes are always excessive compared to say bank valuation. And generally what the house "might" sell for. Depending on the economic sitch, the banks are usually conservative. So I can always pull the law out on her. Ironic that I want to pay the W the reduced cut where as thats exactly what you dont want.
I really want to do this. There are still some hiccups to work out but I would love to be the sole owner of our family house while W runs off into the sunset with Mr. Ukraine to the other side of town from all our friends and family.
No problem py, good luck with it and let us know how it goes.
Just had a thought py. Here you need a home report. It's an official document that you need to sell your house. It contains details of needed repairs etc but it also includes the marketing value and this is the net value . Just in case it's similar where you are.
i'm not moving quickly on this at all. re-location of girls creche/kinder/school has to be "set" before I will even talk about selling house. I have made this clear to W several times and expect I will have to again.
Thanks Vanilla. I certainly agree with your assessment of abstinence not really being recovery. I was thinking more of say an alcoholic presenting his excessive drinking to his Dr. The Dr would say first up - kill the drinking.
Of course stopping the interaction with the compulsion , in this case porn is the first step to recovery. If low self esteem is the trigger then address it. Your W Pyrite has no power to make you feel 'special' that is your power alone, and you can make you feel special. There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
OK so this is the thing. low self-esteem is there. even if it wasn't
Low self esteem, can I just discuss that please. There really isn't such a thing in its totality. We can have low self confidence in many areas and fail to hold ourselves in regard for those areas. For example I feel very confident in my ability to cook all types of food. Food is part of my world. At the moment my confidence is low in my business. So essentially this is a fluctuating issue for me as I suspect for all of us. We can borrow our confidence and self respect from one area and apply it to another. my body confidence is low because of my extra weight and this may impinge on my ability to have new R. So in all of us we have areas of lowness and areas of highness. I am going to visit your thread and ask you to explore this a little with me. If that is ok? There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
but when you don't get this and you already have low self-esteem..... train wreck.
Do you mean don't get it in terms of not knowing? I do hope so. Why? Because no one gives this to you to get, it is something you build for yourself with your own thoughts and emotions. Besides who says having low self esteem is a train wreck? It can and should be temporary (like having measles) not permanent (like blindness. I would loe you to think of this as a temporary drought period and a place and time in which you can develop the resources to have a full internal locus of control. I remember this discussion with Jim in November last year and we challenged him to come up with 100 things he liked about himself that day. I think this challenge would be appropriate for you. So - yes I agree that I have to fix my self-esteem, so that i feel special on my own, but this doesn't change basic requirement ^^ of a relationship.
I do not agree at all with this otherwise those without a primary relationship would not function at all. Self esteem isn't a faulty piece of equipment to 'fix', it is more of a self loving condition which fills you and makes you able to give to others. Giving without expectation and that will enable you to feel like the fundamentals of who you are are fine as they are. You can accept yourself as you are made and then everything else is a plus. A work in progress issue. Am I getting this wrong here?
Your view is different to mine not 'wrong' but I would submit that it isn't very useful by way of belief to you. If you can change your belief and see the 100 things then the other 5 things are in perspective. Some things are self affirming whilst others need work, and that on balance you see yourself as capable and able to function.BTW - just for the record I have/had problems with compulsive behaviour but porn isn't really one of them. I can understand it though, and could cross over very easily.
Actually the compulsion does not matter very much, it is the existence of that nature and some are unlucky enough to have a predisposition to compulsive behaviour. That makes life more challenging and ultimately more rewarding. Apologies for the hijack Zues we can travel to Ps thread to continue. This is challenging because of validation and acceptance, plus I myself don't have this predisposition but I have experience now of others with it. It needs managing.
V
So Pyrite
Here is my challenge. List 100 things you like about yourself today!
V
but when you don't get this and you already have low self-esteem..... train wreck.
Do you mean don't get it in terms of not knowing? I do hope so. Why? Because no one gives this to you to get, it is something you build for yourself with your own thoughts and emotions.
I really have to sleep but I am confused by this. 5am here.
I was meaning that in my M it got to a point where I didn't feel "wanted" by my W. Not that it matters in this particular context, but at a later point she confirmed that.
I should clarify - she didn't confirm that she didn't want me per se. My W was a neurotic mother which made the time we had "together" even further strained, or who we are kidding - completely absent.
At 7-8 months, W stopped going to sleep after babies last feed (breastfed) and stayed up for a bit. night after night I would wait in bed for her, but she never came . She always had intimacy issues but this time was even harder - its all in my thread - but I am happy to give you any detail. It happened a few times, but I distinctly remember the one time that broke my heart.
I called her to the bedroom and I said to her "It is hurtful that you dont come to bed with me but I think it is a bigger problem that you dont want to come to bed". She admitted that she would rather be on FB, organising photos or whatever. I know now how she felt, that I was just an extra source of pressure, demanding her time.
this is a shame because I was not demanding. I did ALL the cooking and cleaning and banking and everything. it wasn't like i was pressuring her into sex every night, we only ever had sex once a month or so. but this is how she felt. pressured. unfortunately because I wasn't reassured by her, i put more pressure on her for reassurance. and ultimately killed my M.
So Pyrite
Here is my challenge. List 100 things you like about yourself today!
V
Hello Pyrite,
V has given you quite a challenge! Wow....100 things, V? Would 99 do? LOL
I'll have to think about that myself.
Pyrite, here's a simple, little prayer I came across:
"Dear God, what happened to my marriage? Place Your healing touch on my gaping wounds. Save me, Lord. Amen."
We're here for you buddy.
Bob
Thanks Bob,
you're always there with kind wishes for every body else. I hope you are getting the support you need as well. I'm sorry I haven't got around to updating myself on your sitch for too long.
-Py
does that mean you chose NOT to buy her out? why was that?
Not quite. I can't afford our house on my own but she can if I accept a reduced share of the equity. The law here is very specific where a) no one party is allowed to profit from the D and b) the equity (in the case of a buy out) is the net value of the property and NOT what you think it will sell for. She was hoping I would accept the current 'selling' average for properties of our type in our area. Problem is that I work in that field and have access to incredible amounts of data so I completely disagree that I should take a reduced cut for both those reasons. However not so long ago I would have done just that.
Although, English Law, I am watching this closely as I want to buy my H out of the house. I do not want OW to be in the house we have painstakingly remodelled for the last 15 years.
No way Smoothy. You don't want that b**** anywhere near, even if you're not there anymore.
morning mate,
fogged over. she was a soft target and easy maintenance (as in maintaining the lie). she doesn't think and doesn't want to think two steps ahead, even one. i'm over it. IF she came knockin' I would consider it. I can only see me really taking it on for the sake of my family.
Zeus posted about the process his DB coach quoted him. 1. BD, M over 2. Friends 3. ..........
OK every sitch maybe different. But I can't even see friends. Sure I can let go of the anger and forgive her (one day), but I can't see me actively wanting to be friends with this person. The foremost quality that I was attracted to 12 years ago was her pure, beautiful, heart. Well now it is in my face that she would not only hurt a fly, but destroy her family, tear me down etc. In terms of friends, I have friends with whom I can have much more stimulating conversation, they dont lie to me, stab me in the back.
So looks like I am gonna be one of those guys. I hope when we settle the property I can settle into this role and build towards a better future. One day at a time. Focus and appreciate the now. Dont waste time dwelling on the past and predicting the future. Especially HER future. This is what I should write on a rubber band and snap on my neck everytime I stray.
thanks guys
Hi Py
Friends? After she's had an affair. There is a whole lot of rebuilding to go on before that happens.
Have a great evening.
Hey,
I decided to come back over here to rant.
I feel like I am in a holding pattern. The rest of my life hasn't started yet. We are still in this post-BD hazy, shared family house week-in, week-out thing. It makes things seem really rushed as well. Not to mention that I can't sleep soundly in my own bed knowhingthat W and OM have most likely been ****ing in here. I usually sleep with d4 (king size single- best investment i ever made).
Hi Pyrite
Yeah, I got all our family double beds (ours is a king+, even though I'm not in it). I think you have to draw a boundary about the beds. That's SO DISRESPECTFUL.
Does OM have a W or SO?
((((Pyrite))))
Let it out then let it go! X
Hey,
I decided to come back over here to rant.
I feel like I am in a holding pattern. The rest of my life hasn't started yet. We are still in this post-BD hazy, shared family house week-in, week-out thing. It makes things seem really rushed as well. Not to mention that I can't sleep soundly in my own bed knowhingthat W and OM have most likely been ****ing in here. I usually sleep with d4 (king size single- best investment i ever made).
That my friend is harsh. I don't think I could sleep in the same bed if I'm honest.
Huddy, I can't enforce any boundaries. She absolutely refuses to NOT include OM in her life and the girls however she wants. Everyone has pointed out to her that this is wrong on so many levels - since day 1. But she just digs her heels in.
He apparently has GF in Ukraine. This was used by W as early proof that no R exists b/n them. WTF? You have a family right here W. He has a 2year R with 22 year old girl thousands of mile away.
Thanks all. I feel better just saying it out loud (even virtual like).
Her midweek visit with kids. Get to see her tonight when she drops them off. Hooray.
It hurts that she has no respect me for me a husband, but she has no respect for me as a human being - which HAS made me feel worthless. She used to be so respectful of everyone, all the time, to the extreme (which was unhealthy). Now she has kicked back 1000% and I get to wear it all. just make me feel that little bit more special than what I did after being cheated on, lied to and rejected. Thanks W.
Friday to Sunday is always good. Sunday afternoon d4 starts getting sad because back with her Mum Monday. She has made more comments again this week implying that she realises Mum has replaced me but with Dad we spend time together wit just us, because Dad doesn't have a friend
.
I have to say that even though I sort of had just as much to do with my kids before, I have freedom now to parent the way I want. I do have more time with little one and especially one-one time in the mornings which I never had before because of scheduling.
anyway, thanks again guys, just for listening.
I used to manage a sales team. Sales is just brutal, and sometimes sales people would blow of steam to each other about the adversity they were facing. It was a slippery slope. On the one hand you want them to be able to lean on each other and support each other. On the other you don't want to enable a victim mentality.
I talked to my crew about this, and said I was ok with "venting", but not "negativity". Someone on my team asked me the difference. So there I am, faced with explaining the difference between venting and negativity. Before you read on, think about this for a moment.
What I came up with is as follows:
Venting is when the adversity you face exceeds your ability to cope. You boil over into the red zone and have to blow off some steam. Yet you take accountability for your loss of self control, and essentially say "OK universe, I shouldn't be boiling over left and right, I can tell by my negative emotions that I need to change the way I am looking at things here. I will do what I need to do to release some excess and get my stress back to manageable levels, but then I need to reflect and grow so next time I am in that situation I handle it better".
Negativity is when you boil over, but then blame the universe for giving you more than you could handle, and essentially saying "This isn't fair, did you see how much adversity I was given? How am I not going to boil over when that happens. No one can blame me for feeling this way because that really stinks."
I'm not feeling very eloquent tonight, so one more try- essentially negativity is considering boiling over inevitable in the circumstances and waiting for the universe to change to not deal you those cards again. Venting is getting support for a temporary stumble while recognizing that only you can change and trying to grow from the pain to be more capable in the future.
Let me know if this is making any sense.
Interesting Zues, I would say negativity doesn't necessarily mean you get to the boiling point, but it's always poor me, complain, complain, excuse, complain etc. I think negativity is an ongoing attitude without making any effort to change.
Venting on the other hand is boiling over, getting over it, moving on and making the needed changes (if applicable). I say if applicable because sometimes venting is about something that isn't in our control (our H/W) but we need to boil over to let go.
Sorry for the hi-jack, I saw negativity and sparked my interest because I have been accused over the past years of being negative...
makes sense. back to the lines again though.
in the overall situation, the M is over. Life as it was is over, and a new life lies ahead. There are +ves and I need to NOT focus on the -ves. That doesn't detract from the -ves and mean they aren't so bad, it isn't just the way I am looking at them. There is no +ve way of stripping cum stained sheets off your mariatal bed without being insanely chirpy (Oh at least W is having a good time).
So yes, I am being -ve. The only way I can deal with it more productively is too pull back and focus on what I have, and maybe even what I have gained. Minimising the -ves hasn't worked, hating my W has been even less effective. I lost my W a longtime ago. Apart from losing my M the annoying **** now is not coming from my W, and is not really even being directed AT me. So I am trying to ignore it. I could be even more -ve and say that there is nothing I want to learn from it. It is not humility that can be learned, or any other +ve attrbute, it is "how to be a door mat".
The only +ve attribute may be patience.
^^^ I mean it is not my W - it is some WW monster thingee
So yes, I am being -ve. The only way I can deal with it more productively is too pull back and focus on what I have, and maybe even what I have gained. Minimising the -ves hasn't worked, hating my W has been even less effective. I lost my W a longtime ago. Apart from losing my M the annoying **** now is not coming from my W, and is not really even being directed AT me. So I am trying to ignore it. I could be even more -ve and say that there is nothing I want to learn from it. It is not humility that can be learned, or any other +ve attrbute, it is "how to be a door mat".
My DB coach told me of a woman yesterday that was going through a terrible treatment for a disease, and was in the hospital in a lot of pain for weeks on end. She was visited by her priest, and at one point he asked her "how would you like me to pray for you?" She very wisely replied "Pray that I don't allow my suffering to go to waste."
Coach told me that we all suffer, and that praying for an end of suffering would be pointless, and the best we can hope to do is gain from our experience. I can tell you're trying to do just that. Clearly it is a terrible storm, so I hope you are open to any and all good things that come from it.
I am trying Zeus - it hurts - but I am trying to let it pass without holding onto it. I can feel that it would be worse and I will forever be gritting my teeth if I do. Thanks for your support.
(((Pyrite )))1 I know where you are. Every little thing our spouse does hurts us. So hard to let it go and not attach any thoughts from their behaviour. We overanalysing everything to look for the crumbs and change of heart.
my take on negativity, letting our emotions bring us to a downward spiral. Hard to move forward.
Venting, getting out and letting go of our emotions and allow us to move forward.. Very simplistic, I know.
thanks for the hug Smothy. I need a real one. i'm not that bad. the afternoon picked up. will see her in a few hours. i'm hoping for a NC change over. i couldn't be bothered putting on ANY front. Well, that isn't exactly true. I am feeling like I just don't care anymore.
Whatever the main grief is/was, she is (unintentionally or not) rubbing my nose in it with her behaviour. You just don't treat people like this. WW brain or not, she doesn't deserve the position of being able to hurt me like this. I am getting used to this position and feel better. But I know when I see her, all might fly out the window again.
(((Smothy)))
Hi Pyrite
Worthless? No way! Your kids love you, they want to be with you, to them you are priceless.
Sounds like you're having a bit of a downer at the minute. Hang in there. Just keep thinking about how special you are and the kids will appreciate that. If they're getting sad about seeing W with OM, at some point it will kick in.
Where I acome from, if you're the best we say 'top banana'. That's you.
thanks mate - going home now to face the music
Dude, I've just caught up on your thread. I read it on the train but couldn't face posting until I had access to a real computer.
It hurts that she has no respect me for me a husband, but she has no respect for me as a human being - which HAS made me feel worthless.
You are not worthless. You are a fantastic dad, always will be. Take strength from the fact that your kids love you and depend on you for their well being. One of you needs to be the leader here and it ain't your WW.
There is no +ve way of stripping cum stained sheets off your mariatal bed without being insanely chirpy (Oh at least W is having a good time).
This made me sick to my stomach. Mate, I know it's too late to stop the kids meeting the OM. I also know it's too late to put up a boundary with the OM being at your house, but THIS? No way. I'd put my foot down about this one right away. You tell her that when it's your turn to be in the house you want the sheets clean. If not, she'll find them on the BBQ the next time she turns up. I would not stand for this at all. It's worse than disrespectful, it's down right insulting.
Look, your WW is a paper tigress. Take your b*lls back and stand up to her. Who gives a fig if you upset her right now.
Pyrite, thank you for my hug, I too would love a real hug.
it would be hard for your W to gain your respect if you are stripping the sheets after her. Respect is prerequisite to love I once heard someone say.
I agree with NDY. Reading that made me feel highly anxious and nauseous.
Stay strong, you have helped me and others on this board, that in itself is priceless and worthy. (((Pyrite)))
Hi mate
That is truly a shocking way to behave towards you. I'd put them sheets in a bag and burn them. Keep your own set of sheets and only put them on when you need them
We all think our sitch is worse than everyone else, but that is truly horrific.
thanks guys. this happened several weeks back now. I didn't even mention because I thought I was just being pathetic and then i just got used to it. my threshold went way up at BD
The 2nd round of custody mediation, i mentioned there were a few tense moments. This was one of them. She started whining about how selling the house should be the first priority to discuss because it was so depressing for her to go back their week after week to find stuff like I had taken down our wedding photos.
In disbelief I said you've got to be kidding me. You're depressed. You've got everything you screamed for, now I am the one that has to find "the sheets" after your BF has stayed the night. She just yelled that he has never stayed the night - well back then anyway.
another great story about those particular sheets. several years ago my mate was getting married and told me he wanted black satin sheets like one of E-GFs had. So i bought them, but the week before the wedding his fiancé told me how much she hated satin sheets. Anyway, I kept them and bought something else. They became our "sexy" sheets. They hadn't come out of the cupboard for years.
i threw her sheets in her corner and took everything I used with me at the end of the week I took all of my clothes out, and some of the girls. I bought some big cargo bins, bought more clothes for the girls and now every week is like packing the car to go camping in a BYO everything holiday unit. Even take my own food. Every week I just throw any **** on the floor into her corner. Clean the house and then pick up kids from creche. every other week i stay at my Mums.
I am longing for my own place.
anyway, tonight was fine. she acts like nothing ever happened now. she's happy. i couldn't be bothered with putting on any front anymore. she told me about the school she visited to check out as if that was some major achievement and proof of her dedication. i went 3 weeks ago but didn't bother telling her. i wasn't stressed or angry or rude. I just don't have any time for her.
i have been in such pain. I expect people here understand. the physical pain where you can taste the colour of your brain as it squeezed in anguish. then the headache afterwards where you can feel the bruising and the internal bleeding. Your stomach in nots and your body aching like you are feverish. You can't even breath and gasp for breath in a panic.
Well it isn't all that bad anymore but I get "flashbacks" to being like this. The pain is much less now and it does subside quicker. I remind myself of how bad it "was", and even though this time feels like the end of the world - it is nothing compared to the first month. And, there is nothing new she can do to me that will ever be as bad.
So to repeat myself again - she has played her worst card and I am still here. What's more is that I am getting better. I accept now that my M is over. I don't want that M back anyway. I felt unloved for 4 years. I became suicidal at my lowest for **** sake. The person in front of me now that is my W, I don't want her either.
But I dont know why that should mean I am not going to come through this a better person. This has been something which I have struggled with. I can see and I have seen people grow bitter and twisted from this. Thats not going to happen to me. I know that it won't and it IS as simple as - because I don't want it to. That doesn't mean that I have to keep wanting the M back. I don't. That doesn't mean I have to force myself to like my W as she is - I certainly dont.
I do want what is best for my girls. IF W turns up on my doorstep in 3 years time, then all i am expecting is to treat her like any other prospective buyer.
thank-you beautiful people for listening and caring
Good for you Pyrite!
Yeah, that first month is brutal. Don't let her ground you down.
Hey Py
I'm kind of over it all as well. I can't see what else she has left in her arsenal that she can hit me with that will hurt. Then again, she has been quite creative in that department so I never fully let my guard down. But I don't hurt anymore and it shows.
I don't think she is comfortable yet in her situation. Just the other week she was spewing all over the place. It's calmed down now but like everything else here no expectations.
BTW, on a side note. I've been to your lovely city. Stayed in Brighton. Had more that a few Tooheys New in the Brighton Hotel bar.
thats NSW beer - Toohey's
. Brighton is nice. expensive nowadays. close to where i work actually - beachside
never been to the UK. Likely to in the next year or so for work - but we'll see.
yeah W seems comfortable this week - but that could change. could hit a rocky patch in her new R. who knows. who cares anymore. as i was saying to Tulo, clinging to a version of the future doesn't help one to detach. you must be getting weary after a year in the same house!!
You want 2.0 W now. 1.0 version is now well out of date! Hope Mr Ukraine has his visa turned down.
Things is, do we actually get version 2.0 of our spouses. Do we take them back a better versions of themselves but still no where near version 2.0?
I want my H, the loving, caring person he was before he gave me all this! Does that ever happen.
Is the M better because we work harder never to go back to this pain we have all felt. It is not good, quite introspective and morose these last few days.
Things is, do we actually get version 2.0 of our spouses. Do we take them back a better versions of themselves but still no where near version 2.0?
Well, if they want to R then they have to accept they have a LOT of work to do. No pain no gain. We can't just simply let them back into our lives after acting so despicably can we? How could we ever trust them again? No, anything short of 2.0 and your heading for a whole load of pain yet again.
Thinking of that today on the train. So much pain, the amount of work would take some time to put it all back together. It's like an IKEA flatpack - all the pieces are there, we just haven't got the alun key!
Thinking of that today on the train. So much pain, the amount of work would take some time to put it all back together. It's like an IKEA flatpack - all the pieces are there, we just haven't got the alun key!
Actually, we do have the alun key, we just need to work out which size and when to use it. Once you're finished you either have a lovely bedside cabinet or firewood.
Looking more like MDF at the moment!
Looking more like MDF at the moment!
yea, but MDF still burns.
Looking more like MDF at the moment!
yea, but MDF still burns.
it gives off toxic fumes when it burns doesn't it ?
Looking more like MDF at the moment!
yea, but MDF still burns.
it gives off toxic fumes when it burns doesn't it ?
BINGO.
Time to get that agent for our book gents!
Time to get that agent for our book gents!
Mate, I was going to simply download all my emails for the last year and change the names.
I even had a working title. "My very online divorce".
Kinda rolls off the tongue, don't you think?
I imagine the same story tweaked for different markets. The horror story version, the thriller, the comedy
At the end though, you'd want to put away, never to read again.
Things is, do we actually get version 2.0 of our spouses. Do we take them back a better versions of themselves but still no where near version 2.0?
I want my H, the loving, caring person he was before he gave me all this! Does that ever happen.
Is the M better because we work harder never to go back to this pain we have all felt. It is not good, quite introspective and morose these last few days.
IDK Smothy. At BD, before I clicked that OM made this sitch add up, I was arguing that ultimately we would both learn from this, and then carry that forward into our next R." Lets learn this together" I said "and bring it into ours. In 20 years we can look back on this as the period which made our M great".
She insisted D was the only way. She owed nothing to me or the M.
I saw a new IC today. It went OK, but 1st session is basically me re-telling. I forget how vicious she was until I have to recount it to someone else and they visibly cringe at some of the things W said to me, and her behaviour.
I remember it like a horror movie. During the highlights I was panting, couldn't catch my breath. There are a handful of moments in my life that remain distinct. Most have dimmed. There was one moment which I dont think will EVER dim. She made me repeat it, to be sure I understood what she was saying. This was horrible in itself. "W didn't want a 2nd baby with me. She just wanted a sibling for the 1st." I still can't process this. It makes me feel horrible. I feel sick for my little girl as well. I just can't excuse adding this to her script.
She was so sweet. I just can't believe how she turned so bitter and venemous. And if it is the unexaggerated truth, this was years ago. WTF has been going on for years?
Anyway. I am not really down about it as it may appear. Just story telling. Actually had a great day. The kids drove me nuts at bedtime, but you get that sometimes. Oh and d4 had an accident on me, again! We were dancing and she was having too much fun to take a break.
I remember it like a horror movie. During the highlights I was panting, couldn't catch my breath. There are a handful of moments in my life that remain distinct. Most have dimmed. There was one moment which I dont think will EVER dim. She made me repeat it, to be sure I understood what she was saying. This was horrible in itself. "W didn't want a 2nd baby with me. She just wanted a sibling for the 1st." I still can't process this. It makes me feel horrible. I feel sick for my little girl as well. I just can't excuse adding this to her script.
This, this is very odd. My W and I for years had said we didn't want another kid. Mostly it was her saying it. But on the night of BD we were at a party. S9 was there (it was a Halloween party do child friendly) and S9 had said that he would like a brother/sister but that won't happen now. WW turns around and says to him 'Never say never'.
That night at home once S9 was asleep she BD'ed. I never really thought about that until now.
That's all very odd. So, in both cases, W has seemed to be planning this for a long time. Apart from turning my stomach, where does this put them on the WW scale?
We could do with Sandi2 here, because I thought a WW/WAW kind of decided just before BD. Having said that, we can't trust them, can we?
That's all very odd. So, in both cases, W has seemed to be planning this for a long time. Apart from turning my stomach, where does this put them on the WW scale?
We could do with Sandi2 here, because I thought a WW/WAW kind of decided just before BD. Having said that, we can't trust them, can we?
I don't think it's quite that sudden. I think they have the OM in the background simmering away nicely while they decide what to do about the M. They are conflicted for a long time before they build up the courage to BD. Once they do though the decent is rapid. Very very rapid.
Note, the behavior up to BD gets increasingly erratic as well. Mostly to the H but also in general.
yeah - the behaviour unto BD - i didn't really "collect" all the behaviour. But it all adds up now.
I really dont know what her intention was telling me that. I know she was hesitant in having another child, but she really did want a sibling for the first. I blissfully believe that the was just trying to hurt me as much as she could.
BD was not 100% over. She left it in a way that she wasn't the one closing the door but hurt me as much as she could hoping I would just say "**** off - thats it - 100% over". but i didn't. i was like Rocky
just kept taking it on the chin.
Good practice for now it was. I reckon will serve me well for the rest of my life. I'm superhero impervious to pain now
I remember it like a horror movie. During the highlights I was panting, couldn't catch my breath. There are a handful of moments in my life that remain distinct. Most have dimmed. There was one moment which I dont think will EVER dim. She made me repeat it, to be sure I understood what she was saying. This was horrible in itself. "W didn't want a 2nd baby with me. She just wanted a sibling for the 1st." I still can't process this. It makes me feel horrible. I feel sick for my little girl as well. I just can't excuse adding this to her script.
This, this is very odd. My W and I for years had said we didn't want another kid. Mostly it was her saying it. But on the night of BD we were at a party. S9 was there (it was a Halloween party do child friendly) and S9 had said that he would like a brother/sister but that won't happen now. WW turns around and says to him 'Never say never'.
That night at home once S9 was asleep she BD'ed. I never really thought about that until now.
so???? is your W saying she might have more kids with OM? how very odd to say to your son, even knowing the meaning in your own head.
yeah - the behaviour unto BD - i didn't really "collect" all the behaviour. But it all adds up now.
I really dont know what her intention was telling me that. I know she was hesitant in having another child, but she really did want a sibling for the first. I blissfully believe that the was just trying to hurt me as much as she could.
BD was not 100% over. She left it in a way that she wasn't the one closing the door but hurt me as much as she could hoping I would just say "**** off - thats it - 100% over". but i didn't. i was like Rocky
just kept taking it on the chin.
Good practice for now it was. I reckon will serve me well for the rest of my life. I'm superhero impervious to pain now
After months of suspicion on my part and her treating me like sh*t, which got worse every day and me like a withering little wimp standing in the background taking it all thinking not only was I going mad for suspecting her but also blaming myself for her anger I got it right between the eyes.
Then, after weeks of trying to sort it with her (yea, it was before DR and DB) she happily announced that she was sleeping with him. So there was the 100% right there.
Oh, and don't forget it was all my fault. And like a mug I did blame myself.
My W went cold for a few weeks last year, then for the three weeks before BD. I just thought this was hormones.
i am still amazed by how people can behave this way. treat anyone like this, let alone the person that they at least once loved.
i have decided to see a L.
Sorry Pyrite, I though you already was involved with an L.
oh yeah - just read about Huddy's Monday - reminded me - my mate is flying me to his place for the week (June). Sub-tropical, beachside, beautiful midweek quiet
. i can't wait. NO f****n W either.
nah - everything has been mediated so far. W has had me on the backfoot because I have been afraid of losing my 50% custody. But from my talk with legal aid I get the impression she'd be pushing it uphill to get that ruled on by a judge. So that benighted case - dare I challenge her that WE are not re-locating.
i am still amazed by how people can behave this way. treat anyone like this, let alone the person that they at least once loved.
I had a thought about this. Pre BD my wife would never have treated anyone so badly, not even her worst enemy. But me? Man oh man did she get the knifes out. I often wonder if the level of cruelty is in direct proportion to the level of hurt the WAS is feeling?
accentuate the +ve
makes total sense man. There have been numerous times that I feel like I can sense how much she is hurting/conflicted/guilty inside. Unfortunately - she still did it.
accentuate the +ve
makes total sense man. There have been numerous times that I feel like I can sense how much she is hurting/conflicted/guilty inside. Unfortunately - she still did it.
^^ and that's the crux of the matter.
It's hard to accentuate the positive, when you feel you have been kicked in the teeth!
My H had an EA/OW simmering in the background for nearly 4 years. Who's was the bigger fool. I found a new place, was moving out etc until he begged me to stay, now I feel the bigger fool, as the Ow is the same one he had an EA with.
I don't want to be so bitter! :-(
Gosh, this anger and bitterness is really coming out of me.
So sorry for this spew! :-)
Sandi2 tells us that the WW/WAS is feeling hurt as well. But it is difficult to feel any sympathy for them when they are continually kicking you in the nuts.
So, we do get bitter and angry and resentful and that is when detachment really starts. You'll wobble (Friday appears to be my wobble day!) but get back on the horse and you'll be OK.
Gosh, this anger and bitterness is really coming out of me.
So sorry for this spew! :-)
Spew away, Py doesn't mind.
Just remember that she's just as human as you are.
She goes to her IC and tells stories of ways you hurt her that make her IC cringe.
She retells of the times she was in anguish and wanted to turn to her spouse and was rejected night after night.
She retells how she tried to express her pain, that she was dying inside, that she couldn't live like this, and she was ignored.
She retells different scenarios when your lack of empathy, your need to be right at all costs, to frame things through your point of view while diminishing hers made her feel worthless for years.
And she retells the grieving she went through that the love of her life wouldn't love her back because that's how she felt, and how she feels betrayed by you that she was forced to pick between eternal abuse and the destruction of her family.
DON'T scorekeep. You don't want to go there. Everyone is right in their own eyes. Trust me, if you could see things through her eyes you might not see her as a crazy and vindictive superficial whimsical addict. You might see her as a mature and committed woman who's commitment caused her to endure more pain that most people would have put up with, so who was in fact wounded more deeply by the man who swore to love her than she could've imagined.
There's a lot of ways to rewrite history. What feels true to you is your point of view. Seeing beyond your point of view is growth. Let go of the scorecard and the labeling, just get past it. You are both flawed humans that have hurt each other and failed in a M. That's it. Focus on your half and try to get better, not on what your W does after she was squirming in so much pain she couldn't go on.
Not easy. I can still do this if I'm not careful. Just trying to keep it real.
Gosh, this anger and bitterness is really coming out of me.
So sorry for this spew! :-)
Spew away, Py doesn't mind.
what - that was it - that was just a hiccup - spew away Smothy.
I absolutely agree with what Zeus was saying, but keep in mind that you are not going to move from one to the other overnight or even once and for all. If you start from "I dont want to be bitter" then this is excellent. Just try to not lose that.
Keep in mind having the compassion that Zeus described and be happy with this generally growing, NOT always growing, but per month say.
Respect the process, grieving that is. This IS bigger than you or I. It has taken over everyone on this board and millions more. It is part of being human that we experience this. It is hard not to, and as you know - do as I say NOT as i do, but DONT constantly evaluate your progress. I have quoted before that happiness is not a destination, it is in the journey. Well maybe so is sadness, and everything that makes up grief.
This journey will last how long???? The point is it won't last forever. There will be another journey, and where that leads you depends largely on how much you learn on this journey - not necessarily where you get to.