So I am not the type of person to join online forums, but if there is a time I should its perhaps now!
My H of 14 years (T for 18 years) told me 3 weeks ago he has lost the passion for me and this marriage. He has tried for so long to "rekindle the passionate feelings that need to be in a relationship" (ouch!). I've known for quite sometime we've had problems with our SL and we've never admitted it until last year when I told him I was unhappy. He begged for another chance. I gave it to him and for our M. Forward nine months later, I had truly thought we were committed to working together on our issues but obviously not.
He has sworn there is no OW, has not been on dating sites or made any emotional connection with OW. I guess I have to believe him. For the first week, we slept in separate bedrooms, I couldn't handle it - he still wanted to do family dinner with our two daughters, do our laundry - "support me" plus he was giving me mixed messages saying things like perhaps the other person could join into our separate holidays with the girls!!??
So I am attempting to detach but finding it hard. I haven't read any of the DB or DR books as yet, any suggestion which should I read first? I am worried that my behaviour being angry/distant/cold and wanting to discuss our R will push him further away....
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).
Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thanks Cadet
Trying to find the DR book where I am at the moment. Slowly reading through these posts. Does anyone know good coping strategies for anger? I nearly blew my stack off when H started to "roster" the weekend with the Ds. I walked away saying I couldn't do it.
But it then resurfaced when H asked me to do something for him - we ended up having an argument..
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks for the advice Cadet.
I've actually changed the password to my Mac, so he can't access. Just ordered the books on Amazon and its being delivered to my parent's house.
Ok back again. Advice need. My WAS just cc'd me to an email he sent to the real estate agent basically showing me he is actively looking at an alternative place to stay. Do I validate his action and say how this must be difficult for him and thank him (he doesn't want to move out because he won't cope????) Or do I ignore it? ?
Is it wrong to talk about the M with my WAS and analyse how we got here? Perhaps I am over analysing everything. I asked my H was our marriage so bad, despite the lack of sex and intimacy (we engaged but intermittently and usually my initiation)? Were there good points, I asked? He replied, sex and intimacy is a huge part of the M - I didn't respond because yes, its a factor but can be reignited once you reconnect right? H has mentioned he has been stressed so much about this issue for quite a long time - so here I am thinking is his uptightness, stressy self all because of this? and perhaps if things were better he would have been a different person? So what does that say about me???
I am trying not to wallow in self-pity and beat myself up, but its a hard day today..
Hang in there. It can be so very hard.
You have to stick with it, you have to take care of yourself.
Thanks for your encouragement Winhamn.
I had a debrief with family and friends and they put it all into perspective. Thank god for good support when needed...
When does the ache in the stomach disappear? And I am so trying not to despise my H. The day didn't start so well, as I told him I met someone who worked at the school he teaches. I didn't inform this person that we had separated - not a close friend, not their business. I told H that this person recalled a conversation she had with H about me, and this person said that I was my H "princess". I told H I wanted to throw a book at her to shut her up because it was all bleeding lies. Like another member here in this forum I've actually said I hated him for destroying this family. H didn't engage in a conversation with me.
I just want the ache and anger to disappear....
Ok just found after some snooping that my WAS is on anti-depressant. Can a WAS get depressed after instigating a separation? I mean shouldn't he feel relieved after telling me he's been so stressed with this M?
I want to support him through this but I also want to protect myself from the emotional pain of interacting with him. He doesn't have any close friends here and all his family is in the UK. Any advice?
On another note - had a great GAL weekend with my girls and friends. Also joined a yoga class, so here's hoping things are better this week.
Can a WAS get depressed after instigating a separation?
NO he was depressed for a long time prior to this.
YOU did not see it.
YOU did not break him and can not FIX him.
Thanks Cadet. I know I cannot fix him. He can only do it himself. Am I wrong not to have seen this? I feel so horrible and the 'if only' question comes to mind. So our M is collateral damage to his depression?
Am I wrong not to have seen this?
Nope - you just join a long line of people that are here before you and after you.
I feel so horrible and the 'if only' question comes to mind.
So our M is collateral damage to his depression?
Yes the marriage is collateral damage.
Now that we have established that,
it is time to start to DB.
Can depression also make them cool and nasty towards you? I just accidently eavesdrop on his conversation to his mum, and he mentioned that I've hardly been around going out and that its quite "pathetic". He sounded so vindictive about me
Can depression also make them cool and nasty towards you?
The depression puts him in a lot of internal PAIN,
so he will try to ESCAPE and AVOID that pain.
He will run away and blame others.
Don't take any of this personally.
That is why we recommend you DETACH
Thanks Cadet. I am in the process of detaching. Though he lives downstairs, communication has been mainly through text and email and face to face when we see the separation counsellor and the counsellor for the kids.
So WAS got home from work today and he looked like a mess. He asked where our Ds were and I told him they were with my mum. OK he said he'll pick them up. But all he did was sit in his car with the engine running for 2 minutes and walked inside his unit. I think he was having another anxiety attack. My suspicion was confirmed when I went up to his door to check on him. He came out with shortness of breath. I asked if he was ok? He said he was fine. I offered to have the girls so that he could settle himself. I think he was relieved.
So I've decided to talk to my MIL tonight, to discuss my concerns. I've tried to detach (sometimes successful) but its hard particularly with kids. Also I do not want anything to happen to him particularly if he has the girls.
Anyone have advice on how to detach fully with kids?
Emot1234
Hang in there. I know that it is so hard right now. Just only in the past few weeks have I started to feel better about myself. I know that I can make it with out H. Not my preference, but I can do it and will if I have to.
I think we have a long road ahead of us. Hang in there. Detaching really does help. By this I am referring to feelings, not necessarily contact from H. To hard to do living together.
So I spoke to my MIL to discuss my concerns. It was an emotional talk for both of us. At least she now knows how stressed my H has been since last year and I have done all that is needed.
On other news, my H noticed I wasn't home when he got home, he asked my cousin where I was, my cousin replied I was working late, will be back by 7pm, but actually I was doing a GAL activity - yoga! He then said to me "I know I'm not your timekeeper but can you tell me if you are home late so he can tell the girls, as apparently my youngest D kept asking him where I was today? Err wasn't he told I'd I was working late and will be home by 7pm?
Confused as much..
I am finding it hard to converse with my H like a friend. Last night he opened up a bit. He told me that his school said because of what has happened and he had lots of hours owing he should take today off. He then said on Monday he had a bad time at school. I didn't ask questions, I didn't ask him to elaborate what had happened. Should I have??
I am not sure what vets will say, but when my H initiates convo we have primarily been having lots of talks about work, what we have going on, some slightly deeper non R topics, etc.
I have just tried to be as supportive and validating with what H tells me he has going on and ask clarifying questions. One of my H's issues though was in the last year I was not fulling engaged when he was speaking to me. Too distracted with IPAD, FB, etc. I have done 180 and am completely 100% present in convos. I try to not focus on me and my stuff so much, but do share if he asks Qs. I think it helps in having my H remember how supportive I have always been during schooling and throughout entire marriage. I also think is first step in rebuilding friendship.
I am far from an expert, but that has been my approach. Has lead to 2-3 hour conversations. Vets?
Have you found a copy of the books yet? Why do you keep believing you have to detach? Do you understand what that means in terms of DB?
BW05 Ok thanks. I know I put my guard up when I talk to H. I just dont want to get hurt. Can you say have a nice day when you leave or is that pursing? I
MrBond - the books are on the way. Ordered from Amazon the DR books should arrive here on 14 May and DB on 28 May. Guess I am going a bit "blind" with the techniques I need to do.
The thing is. I know my H understands how supportive I am. When he went through his work crisis last year, I was there for him 100%. It is usually him that is on the IPAD while we sit down. I guess sometimes when he does talk, I do not elaborate him to talk further..
My DB coach told me to treat H just like I would treat a friend and nothing more. So I guess if you were talking to a friend would you tell them have a nice day?
Again, this advice was based on my situation. My H does not want to move out. I guess we are not technically seperated in that regard. I feel like mine wants to maintain some sort of connection to help figure things out?? Mine is just in major confusion mode right now.
Are you thinking about getting a DB coach? I feel like it is helping me.
Nice that your H remembers that. Mine has said nothing about the support I provide on an emotional level.
Yes perhaps I should get a DB coach. I know he wants to be friends and to me thats hard at the moment since we had a very touchy relationship- holding hands etc.
My H did not want to move out either. It was me who asked him to go downstairs to the unit so I could protect myself from the pain. It was so difficult with him in a separate bedroom and not with me. I know he hates it downstairs but it has helped me with the emotional pain.
When does the ache in the stomach disappear?
It's part of flight/fight syndrome and a bit of your own situational depression. The only thing that takes it away is time and emotional detachment.
Oh, ok. Yeah that is where we are a bit different. My H is the exact opposite of touchy. I can barely get a hug these days. So he doesn't want to be with you, but he wants to be in the MBR and touchy?
Regarding the ache in stomach...mine went away last week when I started to emotionally detached and started to feel some anger about what he is doing. While holding on to anger is not great, it has helped emotional detach. I just have to balance it with empathy and compassion so that is what shows when we interact.
Thanks Sherman 33. I know it will take time. I have been in the fight mode two weeks ago. Soooo angry. I have calmed down since then. I asked H today if he wasn't doing anything did he want to catch up for coffee? He said yes. Not sure what we will talk about but maybe I should validate that I heard he had a rough time at work on Monday and perhaps say I understand how difficult it is for him living downstairs but thankful he is there. Is that ok???
BW05
When he told me he wanted to separate he asked if he could stay in the MBR. He said he could sleep on the floor. He didn't it was the worst night of my life. He has refrain from holding hands or giving me a hug. He told me he had lost the right to do that. In the first few weeks it was me who would initiate the holding hands, I gave him a kiss, a hug. I realised doing these actions made it difficult for me to emotionally detach, so I have stopped. He told me he would gladly hold my hand if it made it "easier".
So sorry to hear that. It sounds so painful. I guess in the end this will make us even stronger women.
I tried initiating hugs as well and my H was not comfortable with it, so my DB coach said knock it off.
Try to stay as happy and positive as possible.
Also I am not going to remind him about making another appointment with the separation counselor. He can make the next call on that. Its just moving too fast. ..
So I had coffee with my H. It didn't start well. He started to talk about how the different options with regard to settlement. I explained that for both of us we should try and just let all the emotion subside before we leap into settlement.
He didn't seem to hear what I was saying because he then said another option was for him to buy me out. I said is this what you've decided? He said no he was throwing in the mix. He said he hasn't decided what to do. I made a comment on how he made the decision on our marriage. He commented I had an angry\pissed off look which stops him conversing. I told him I am trying to change that. I changed the topic. Asked about his work and how it made him feel. I then asked if he was off to see the doctor again. He said his and told me his doctor told him he should get out before it gets too toxic. I didn't say anything. Earlier in our conversation I validated how difficult it is for him to be downstairs but I've appreciated him being there. I then said last time we spoke he mentioned to the doctor how he was feeling. I asked if the doctor has given him some strategies. He didn't reply. I told him I was here to support him through whatever he is feeling but I can't help him if he is not truthful to himself. I told him I knew he is depressed. He quickly got up stating that his parking runs out. The last thing I said was I am here to listen when you what to talk. I gave him a hug, he was quite cool saying ok thanks for the coffee etc. I didn't have any expectation when I gave the hug but disappointed he was so cool. I even squeezed his hand after he told me his experience at work on Monday. I have refrained from hugging etc. he was open to it the first week or so but is now uncomfortable. Perhaps my behavior has led to his coolness.
Oh and one more thing that I failed to mention when I had coffee with my H was during the whole hour conversation he could not look me in the eye. There were fleeting seconds of eye contact, but the majority of our hour catch up his eyes wondered elsewhere. Is this because he feels guilty or is it due to his depression?
Can any Vets answer my question above?
Emot1234, I wish I was more of a vet to help advise. I think they would say there is no use in trying to decider your H demeanor right now and you should just focus on you. You need to detach from your H's actions to that you are not as affected when they interaction does not go so great. This is something finally sunk in last week.
Sounds the the conversation was more serious than light hearted and you H seems like he has lots of anger right now. My H was like that for the first few weeks, but has softened a bit. I think my H's anger was coming from a place of hurt, pain and fear.
You said in your intro there has been issues in you SL. Are you the LDS or the HDS? I have come to learn that this us big reason for my H's pain.
Hi EMO1234,
Just wanted to check in and see how things are going. I find the more Zi post the more people tend to post on my topic. Hope you are hanging in there.
BW05
EMO, BW is right. You need to really go to detachville here. There were many comments that came across judgmental, controlling, and pursuing.
Asking about the R is temperature checking and forces him to give you the most negative answer.
Telling him what you believe you should be done will come across as controlling to him right now.
Telling him you know he is depressed implies that you aren't taking his feelings very seriously because he just needs some pills and some coping strategies to be all better again.
Telling him you are trying to change, or trying to listen ISN'T change because you are trying to get him to see a positive side in you. Actions, not words will tell the story.
Initiating a hug is pursuing.
And when you zoom out you will realize that his opening statement was that he was trying to find a way to reach a settlement, and for the rest of the conversation you steered into subjects that completely invalidated his decision as you kept coming back to ways he could fix himself.
I get it. We've all been there. It's just that trying to control the way this plays out will only cause him to fight for independence more, just as pursuing leads to pulling away, and telling him you're changing is proving you're not because he feels you are trying to manipulate him still.
So I'd recommend that you read Sandi's 37 rules many times a day.
Then give yourself some space from him, emotionally, physically.
Work on taking care of yourself right now, and let him run him.
This is really hard to do, but it is the only way to ease your pain, and as long as you are hurting this much you will be exerting pressure on him to behave in ways that doesn't hurt you so much. If you can find some peace regardless of what he does then you can give him the freedom he needs to sort through this. And yes, there are obviously strong feelings of compassion, guilt, and even love inside of him. But you can't squeeze it out of him. Love not given freely isn't love. You need to let him walk his own path right now.
PS- this conversation isn't going to determine if you can save your R one way or another. What you do from here is much more important. He hasn't moved out, you aren't D...don't let despair or anger overpower you right now. Rise above!
I would also recommend you read up on the effects of a sex starved marriage to men. Gan and I had a good discussion of this on her thread.
It sounds like this was one of the core issues for him in the M, yet I haven't seen you refer back to it. It doesn't seem like understanding this part of your H is the priority to you it is to him.
The reason I suggest this is because if you understand what he went through a bit more it might lead to compassion, which will help trump the anger you are dealing with. Also, it may lead to a change in how you view him which he may pick up.
It's not 100% on you to fix the M, nor is it your job to fix your H. But there is no better time to become the best person you can be. One day at a time, you can do this.
It's not 100% on you to fix the M, nor is it your job to fix your H. But there is no better time to become the best person you can be. One day at a time, you can do this.
Hello EMO,
Everything Zues wrote in his last two posts are pure gold! I hope you follow his advice. He has helped me tremendously.
His last line, sums it all up perfectly.
I agree with him - you CAN do this.
I wish you well.
Bob
Thank you for your support Zues126,Bob723 and BW05. I KNOW I have to detach totally physically and emotionally and yes I am aware what I am doing is controlling and the things have regressed since I had the coffee talk with my H last week. So here is an update, its a long one..
On Friday, I snooped on his ipad and found that he has been on porn sites, basically the on the morning before we met up for coffee, which might explain his behaviour - no eye contact, coldness. It was a total betrayal because he had promised me not to go on these sites when we were together particularly on the ipad our young Ds uses. That afternoon, he wanted to discuss moving out as he got a place, I validated how difficult it was for him living downstairs but I appreciated him being around for the girls. H mentioned that him staying will not change anything regarding our R. It was at this moment I viewed him differently. I told him I didn't want a reconciliation, that I know I will have no regrets on how I tried to save this marriage, that I hoped he will have no regrets 3 years down track. H didn't reply.
I then fessed up that I knew he was on anti-depressant and I said I should have been told particularly for our Ds. H laughed it off saying it was ridiculous for us to tell what meds we are on. I told him it was important because its a MH issue and its effects. He then told me his doc NEVER told him he was depressed and that the doc told him to take the pills because of how low he felt. I didn't respond because he was still in denial.
I then asked if he had been on porn sites. He said yes, that there was a period when he didnt access them and then when things got worse with us, he accessed it. I told him, he promised when we were man and wife you would stop. I asked how young were the girls he watched - he replied less than 40 years (basically 18 years old) I told him that I was going to put a filter on the internet and on his ipad. He complied with my request.
That night I asked for his help on the keywords he used to google search the sites (very vindictive of me). We argued because he could not give me specifics. I asked if he was addicted and he said NO, that he said he doesn't have a NEED to go there, it might be a habit (?). I requested for all the domain sites he has accessed and keywords used. He asked am I doing this to make him feel bad, I replied no but needed to get him to see his actions.
On Sunday night we argued again about our R, what brought us here etc. I know I shouldn't have but its all the resentment coming up and the lack of communication from him on how he is feeling. The most crucial thing he blurted out was that he was an "old, lonely and drepressed man" I said, I am glad he acknowledged he his depressed. It was a significant moment for us, I told him my gratitude list on him being a H to me. He couldn't say his to me directly and sent it by txt while I was there! So this is what he texted:
"Thank you for.. putting up with me, for being the most encouraging/loyal wife possible, the most amazing mother to our beautiful Ds, being sooo supportive particularly during the more recent stressful times on work, for being so loving and cute...Theres more (?)"
I haven't responded to his text but blew any chance with my behaviour this morning. I asked if he had the domain sites and keywords. He asked that I don't discuss what is written on the page has it will give him immense stress talking about it before work. Anyhow I saw he used the search term TEEN, I told him it was inappropriate because of his occupation. We had an argument while he was in the car saying TEEN what he was looking at was 18/19 years old. He asked I hope that I don't regret what I am doing to him. I replied no, because there is no reconciliation right? He didn't reply.
As a newbie, I know my actions are wrong but the thing is in our relationship, I've felt I've compromised and supported him alot. I feel like I need to be heard by him. I've had time to look at our marriage, and yes our SL was an issue, there are annoying traits on both sides but I've always spoken up how I felt about our relationship and its frustrating that he can't or refuses to do so. Can I move on without H? I've realised I probably can.
So can any vets out there advise me on how to repair a situation before it gets worse?
PS. I guess I don't want to make the same mistakes again should I move into a new relationship.
Becoming a better person is my aim and I desperately want to be that person. I've ordered self-help books plus DB and DR books to get me going. I've also started to GAL - doing yoga and putting my name down to volunteer for an NGO.
So you're going to put a fork into a 18 year marriage and then read a book on how to be a better wife?
Zues126
No I don't want to put a fork into an 18 year marrigage, the reading is about separation and how it can used for self growth. I guess I am tired of being the one to "fight" for this marriage plus H keeps reiterating about no to reconciliation, even though I've told him I too am not willing to go there...
Zues126
Can you provide the link on the discussion on the sex starved marriage you mentioned?
I do wish you the best. I'm not sure I'll have much to offer because our journeys are quite different.
If anything, maybe you should read my thread. You sound much like my STBX that ended our M with three children. She felt her spirit had been wounded and lost, she couldn't ever be the woman I wanted her to be, that I would never allow her to become the woman she wanted to be, and overall that her only shot at happiness was a path of divorce, healing, and a shot for a fresh start with someone that was a better fit. I too was depressed during the last few years of our M. I too was using porn daily, and our sex life was the biggest issue for me that lead to us not speaking for a sum of 3 years out of the last 5.
The funny part is that after I was out of that destructive marriage I was free to choose my own road. The pain intensified but the depression lessened. I realized the problems that my porn had caused and couldn't continue to do what had caused so much pain to my W in the past. I have been on these forums for an hour or so daily for the past 10 months and have gotten stronger as a father, and as a man. And I am confident that I can bring a lot to my next M. You might see a lot of your H in my early posts, and see what is possible in my later posts.
Meanwhile STBX, the one that wanted to go on her healing journey...well, it didn't work out the way she wanted.
You're you, and your H is your H. I understand that. I think the point I want to make is that on these forums we consider a M with children SACRED. We consider commitment to be unnegotiable. And we consider making lifelong decisions that bring destruction on a family based on emotions from pent up resentment, frustration, fear, or desire for greener grass to be the lure of the serpent offering the apple. Feelings like "I'll never have feelings for him again", or "He'll never understand me", or "I can't live my life like this", "It's better to be single and me than this shell I've allowed myself to become because of him", or "He's just got A/B/C personality issues and I can't fix him, I don't want that in my life"...that along with other men, other freedoms, etc...that is the lure.
I'm not suggesting you don't make changes. I think the idea of DB is to "detach", so you can stop the destructive cycle between the two of you, have some time to figure out who you are and what you want in your lives, work through those negative emotions so you're not being controlled by them...and then when you find a place where you are at peace, strong, compassionate, and maybe wiser...at that point looking back over to see if you can reconfigure a M with the man you pledged to that will allow loving feelings to regrow even stronger, deeper rooted, ready to fulfill you both, and ready to weather the ages. There is no rule that says you have to cast off your M to go on this journey, quite the contrary, DB is all for it.
I've had other women tell me not to post on their threads again. One of them has for the last six months shown no signs of moving through her anger and resentment, but is proclaiming her "freedom". So if your mind is made up and you don't wish to hear this type of talk, I get it. People want people that will support their decisions, and it is definitely yours to make. You obviously don't need my blessing to pick your road.
So I'll just say should you choose to try to take your personal growth journey within the commitment of your M let me know and I'll offer all the support I can. If not, I'll reiterate I wish you the best and I understand we're all different people and there's room for all of us on there forums. You have my prayers EMO.
If the link below works find the post at 05/02/15 09:06 AM. Gan copied a post of mine into a quote (the second quote), then replied. We had some great follow up conversation.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2554034&page=6Sexual differences destroy many families. I don't think that has to be the case. No matter how poorly your husband has behaved, I have done worse. Yet my behavior wasn't really me as I am now, or at my best. Some people think this means we were a 'bad fit'. I'll share another view below from another post and copy it below. Cliffnotes- your H may magically become a different person if your interactions change...
(originally posted for Pyrite
HI PY!)
I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.
There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.
In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.
Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.
You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.
***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***
I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"
So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.
BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.
-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.
-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.
CONCLUSION-
So, the funny part about all of this is that SHE FEELS THE SAME WAY. She thinks you didn't play the cards she needed to feel happy. She excuses all of her poor behavior as the "natural" reaction to being treated so poorly from you. She thinks what you did is far worse. This extends all the way to the "cheating". In her mind she would've never cheated had you not emotionally abused her for years, and it was only because of your actions that she was forced to take refuge in someone else to preserve herself. Then she remembered what a 10 felt like and decided that you were just an Ahole that played 1s-3s, and she can't have that in her life, and she found someone that plays 10s, so see ya later.
Now you're not playing the game anymore. There's no more interaction. SO YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING DISAPPOINTED OR RESENTFUL. You start to find it easier to act like a fine and upstanding citizen. This further proves to you that it must've been her driving you crazy. WRONG. It's easier to conduct yourself well on your own. You're not better! If you were in a relationship again tomorrow you'd be back on the downward spiral again, and you'd be dropping 2's and A's on people in a controlling way until they left you as well. Why? Because you haven't learned another way yet!
For you to judge her on the cards she was playing and excuse your cards because they were the only possible reaction is not going to get you anywhere.
Step one is acknowledging the truths above, taking ownership for your behavior REGARDLESS of the context, and deciding what type of man you want to be. Step two is forgiving her for the cards she's played because now you see how she's done nothing you haven't also done. Step three is learning how to take responsibility for your own happiness so you don't resent your future partner for not being able to chemically maintain euphoria in your life. And step four is learning coping mechanisms so that you are able to maintain responses between 5-10 even when you feel hurt, threatened, or rejected.
When you reach that point where you can be truly ok without a woman's love to make you feel ok, then you can be free to choose to respond lovingly much more often. Oh, and that cheater that just dumped you? Maybe if you had the strength before to treat her differently she would've responded differently. That's the whole DB/DR idea- control your half of the dance and you'd be surprised at what you see in exchange. Of course, it will never be all 10s, that's why you have to grow a bit first. And if you do, people will take notice and you'll be ready for a truly successful M. Who knows...maybe she'll even notice...maybe she'll learn these things on her own after her fling dies down...you can't control that, but if YOU can't learn it how can you expect her to? I say lead by example and act with the character you wish she was utilizing. Maybe if you become the spiritual leader and walk this path she'll notice, and maybe follow suit. If not, you'll know you did your best to save the M, and more importantly you'll need an M to make you happy LESS, and be prepared to have a happy M MORE.
Zues126
I agree with every sentiment you've written. M is SACRED particularly when children are involved. I believe M is about two individuals coming together with a common understanding and love - over the years this common understanding is lost due to resentment building up, a busy life, stresses and lack of communication. I do not want to lose hope that this M is over but it is difficult when you have a H who seems to think I can read his mind and not hear any real emotions from him (or perhaps my emotions are preventing to hear it).
I have basically told him he can still come back after 12 months but I am also fine if he decides not to. I am hoping he does come back, but I do not want to go over the anguish of everything falling apart again in 12 months time so I need to look after myself.
I have started to GAL for myself and with the girls. I have started to do things around the house that I would have seen as his "role", like fixing a light bulb, planting trees in the garden. He on the other hand has chosen not to socialise, is withdrawn and basically stays indoors (this I know I cannot fix so I leave him be.)
I understand that my behaviour has also contributed to the failure of this R. I am passive aggressive, dislike confrontation, have a jealous nature ( particularly the last few years), have some self esteem issues - like my attractiveness/appearance.
I will apologise to him about my behaviour this morning and I do hope I can change my actions to be positive rather than have negative outcomes.
Thanks again Zues126, your posts have been insightful.
Zues126
I was the HDS and my H was the LDS. Initially he was the HDS when we first meet but this changed after we had kids. He controlled when we would engage. Over the years this has become an issue and I tried to engage but feel rejected every time it failed.
I also agree that sexual difference does not have to destroy families, I also see it as an opportunity for growth in a R if both are committed to address the issue. My H says the lack of desire and passion is no longer there and cannot be brought back. I disagree. I have tried to discuss other options - sex therapist for both of us etc but this has fallen on deaf ears and I've realised will not change his mind.
So I've decided not to bring up our SL anymore or try to "persuade" him that it can be fixed...
So I've re-read Sandi's rules and have basically broken rules number 1,3,6,10 & 35. Have cut and paste the rules so I can read every day.
So tonight, I had a volunteering information night with an NGO, had arranged with my mother to drop our Ds to hockey pick them up and feed them dinner. My H texted to say he would rather be the first point of call if I needed help with the Ds. After my meeting, I realised he had called several times. As soon as I got home I apologised stating that my phone was on silent. He asked why was it on silent and asked why I can't tell him where I was. I kept it short and replied I had a meeting with an organisation.
We spoke about the search terms he gave me for the router, that it need to be more specific. He replied he can't remember the words he put down. He then stated he would "prove" to me that he would not access porn sites anymore and that he would speak to his counsellor about it. I replied that he didn't need to prove anything to me. He then stated how he felt monitored with me snooping around and that perhaps if I showed some trust in him with what he said it would be a positive start. I replied ok, I will. He then asked, with my need to discuss more about the R what did I want? I smiled and basically said I will talk to him later, when I put the filter app on his ipad.
He texted me a few minutes ago, asking if I was coming down as he was going to sleep soon. I replied sorry no, will come over tomorrow night. He then rang me, asking why I wasn't coming down and basically he was starting to feel anxious ( i am assuming about the R conversation) I made an excuse that one of our Ds wanted me to be in bed with her and I really needed to sleep early with work tomorrow. I've basically chosen not to speak about our R until he is ready too. Asking me what I need to know clearly indicates he is not fully ready to have a talk.
Good job reading the 37 rules, and working on some GAL activities. Also, glad DB/DR are on the way. Remember to keep them to yourself.
I would highly recommend a DB coach. I wish I could offer some hard facts like "A DB Coach will increase your rate of growth by 600%", but I can't. I'll just say I think people trying to think their way out of this on their own would be like someone trying to give themselves a heart transplant. You (and all of us) are so hopelessly trapped in your point of view that even the big changes you think you're making are all within the confines of your context.
Control, control, control. That's the nature of your M. I see it from both sides in so many ways. Him trying to control you by manipulating you with depression, threatening abandonment, withholding affection, or by making promises. You putting filters on his search engines, postponing talks, or escalating discussions of separating.
Realize that when one person tries to control the other it is often from their darkest and weakest emotions...fear, resentment, insufficiency...control doesn't work, and the person who is trying to control is actually BEING controlled by their emotions. Even telling H "I don't care what you think anymore" is controlling, it is designed to spur him into desperation to change the way you want him to, because if you didn't care you wouldn't make that comment. My examples can be debated but the fact is I know lost my M because by trying to control my STBX into loving me the way I wanted, I drove her to leave the M.
You can't change him. You really can't make him quit porn, any more than someone can make their spouse quit alcohol, gambling, etc. Emotional blackmail or ultimatums just lead to more bad feelings, and there is NO DOUBT in my mind that he will fail. He probably loves you deeply, but he will feel hopeless, like he can't do it, you'll never forgive him, it's a lost cause, and he'll never have his needs met by you anyway...and at those low moments he'll figure since he's so despairing he might as well feel some comfort. If he is going to quit porn it will be because he realizes how it's negatively impacted himself, you, and your relationship. You can't make him see that. It is a hard journey, and you are missing that. You don't have to enable or permit disrespect or lies...but judgment, threats, punishment...that is more control and co-dependency. If your friend's husband was a good man wrestling with an addiction and she was talking about walking away, ultimatums, etc, maybe it would be easier to see.
Nor can you accept a lifelong partnership with a man that withholds affection, uses porn in a way that feels like a betrayal, and uses his emotional hooks to try to control your behavior at every turn.
DB/DR preaches "It takes one to tango". The whole idea is that you can change you, and in turn change the M. So if I could offer anything beyond support it would be to do the following:
1. Slow down and be humble. You seem to really want to DO SOMETHING to make this better right now. That urge comes from pain, from impatience, from fear, from resentment. Not good emotions. Think about your yoga, how restless your mind becomes when you first try to let go of thoughts. You're going to need to let go of a lot, and I would recommend not making major decisions, ultimatums, or power plays while you're this emotionally charged. And be HUMBLE. You can tell yourself "I'm done caring, this is my new attitude/point of view, I'm over it", etc, and think you are now enlightened and everything you do is from a transcendent state. But the reality is that's our mind tricking us into thinking we are in control. We don't get to simply 'decide' that we are now free of feelings from an 18 year bond. It takes time. Have the humility to admit you are deeply interwoven with him, fragile, and being influenced by a lot of emotions you need to sort through. This takes time, so slow down.
2. Get a DB coach. Heart transplant.
3. Read DB/DR. Most of us start with DR. Sections on finding your own happiness, takes one to tango, dealing with a depressed spouse.
4. If you want to read my thread, you might get a pretty good roadmap of where your H is, how your behavior has impacted him, etc. I can tell you in my M I needed one thing more than anything- my wife's understanding and acceptance of my sexual desire. That was ultimately what brought us down. When I look at women who lost their marriages I always want to ask "Did your man feel like he could share his sexual fantasies with you? Did you validate those desires and try to honor and satisfy his needs" I doubt the answer is ever yes, I can't imagine a husband walking away from an M like that, and I can't imagine an H staying in an M where he felt misunderstood and diminished for years. It's THAT important. I won't say you've made him like this (porn addict, "low drive" spouse which is actually controlling because obviously he has needs more powerful than you understand) because he is responsible for his actions...but you are definitely responsible for yours.
So I think it's a good time to be humble, slow down, get some help, and work on understanding. Let go of the need to dictate how progress will be made. You got yourself into this mess. Let go and trust in God to show you the way out if you can ease up on the reins.
You can do this EMO.
Thanks Zues126
My H and I got us into this sitch. Just a query, did you in your M open up about your sexual fantasies with your STBX? Why couldn't you? This is the point I want to make to my H. I too had desires, just like him but we were both too caught up on the rejection, the angst, the stressed it caused.
He opened up the door on talking about our R last night. Should I take it? The thing is its always me who talks and he doesn't contribute. I am reluctant to persue this conversation until he initiates it. Any advice from vets out there?
Yes, I opened up to her about my fantasies. I told her I didn't want to act them all out, that wasn't what I wanted...I just wanted to be able to share with her the desire in my heart. During the times I felt she understood my desires and then was close with me I felt more fulfilled and loved than anything I've experienced. Unfortunately those times weren't enough, and I felt like a dangerous attack dog that had once been a loving pet turned vicious by abuse and starvation.
I am deeply remorseful for how I behaved during my M. I grew resentful at her. I was impatient. I withdrew affection. And at times I pressured her and manipulated her to give in to me so I wouldn't get angry. The sorry thing was I needed her so much that even then I felt loved and fulfilled, when she was feeling broken and abused. I was like a man in the desert drinking water, it felt so nourishing I couldn't conceptualize the way I got it was wrong. When I couldn't force her I turned to porn more and more...'I'm not worth enough love to survive? Fine, obviously I can't trust you with my heart and soul so I won't ask anymore and I'll take care of myself.' Those were the periods when we didn't speak. I couldn't dare open up to her, and she wanted nothing to do with me.
The topic is much more complex than that, I've learned a lot about where my needs came from, the dynamic between the two of us, etc. I just didn't want to write you a book. The point I wanted to make is that I know myself to be a good man and I did some monstrous things. I honestly don't blame my STBX for writing me off. I can see why she would think I'm just a "controlling abusive insensitive sex addict". There is some truth there, but it's possible she threw the baby out with the bath water and that's not all there is too me.
I wonder how many of these "diagnosis" we assume are permanent, that could actually be overcome with compassion, managing our own behavior to change the dynamic, and patience...I hope you can find out with your H EMO. I think that's what "for better or worse" really means. Not turning away when he's down and casting him off as defective, proclaiming yourself as a victim to a world that will celebrate the healing and liberation of a strong independent woman from another weak minded and abusive man.
As for your question, I would move slowly. Your thoughts and emotions have been all over the map, so I would hesitate to have a conversation where you make bold statements. BE HUMBLE. BE STILL. STFU. RELAX. Time is on your side EMO. Impatience and emotional reactions are the enemy. Chill. If he wants to talk, listen, validate, and keep your mouth CLOSED. Let it assimilate. Digest it. Take small bites. If he gives 100% intensity, give 60% back. Tell him you appreciate him opening up and that you're trying to be open to what he's saying. Then come here and talk about your thoughts, feelings, and sort through them where it's safe, where it won't have life long consequences.
PS- Get a DB Coach!
Oh- one more thing. Thanks for being cordial. I am surprised we're still speaking given how painful this conversation is. Thanks for understanding I mean well.
So basically I haven't replied to any H's texts and calls today - is that wrong? First text was about money, second was if he could give our Ds dinner. So the first text I could have replied - was at work, second and other calls he made I couldn't because I was in yoga class! H comment was if I could reply to the girls text about playing on the laptop why couldn't I reply to his? H further commented he knows what I am like with texts since we've been together for 18 years. H also asked if the communication between us was going to change. He has been feeling low being downstairs and not seeing the Ds this week (my turn). H feels that our communication has regressed over the last week (true since I found about the porn!) and then said that if I didn't seem so angry/peeved off he was going to ask me to join him and the kids to a country show this weekend. I kept my mouth shut for most of the time, I didn't bite on what to me were some negative comments.
I know I am portraying a cold/peeved off persona at the moment - can any vets tell me how to break this mould and seem positively happy in front of him and how do I respond to his question about our communication?
Lastly I said to H, thank you for the opportunity for wanting to talk about our R but I have chosen not too talk about it for a variety of reasons - was that ok?
Validating and staying positive and happy in front of him, is so hard!
Oh and one more thing, I told H wasn't going to put a filter app on his ipad. He mentioned about trust last night, that if I trusted him more it would be a good start. I told him I trust his word. His comment to me - "no, I encourage you to do it because I want to prove to you I am not visiting those sites", he then mentioned he spoke to his counsellor about it, I refrained from asking did he tell him everything! H then commented don't do this if you are going to wonder if I am on it - I sighed and said no I won't because it's not my conscious.
Text from H tonight:
"W, I respect you enough to know that you wouldn't intentionally let the Ds overhear you discussing elements of me that you are not happy about but please consider our eldest D bat ear and that she picks up our phones from time to time and could accidentally read messages. Thank you for your time earlier. H"
The fact is I have been very careful not to mention anything bad about H infront of the kids. He is a great father, so where has this come from and how to respond?
Question Zues mentioned about being humble and admit that my H and I are interwoven by an 18 year bond. I get that, but would a WAS see this differently? The fact that he doesn't want reconciliation mean that he has let go off that bond so easily?
On another note my MIL will be here next week...
Any vets got some wisdom on the above? Realised just now yesterday was a month since BD...
Have you had a chance to read the books yet?
Noooo I am still waiting they are arriving next week. I am living in a regional part of Oz, so service is slow. So looking forward to reading the books, I do feel like I am missing the mark here...
Can any Vets answer my question above?
I'm no vet, but i dont think anyone can absolutely answer your question. it could be either of your suggested answers, a combination or many others.
that said I suspect guilt, internal conflict. again that said - neither my W nor I can look each other in the eye and she is the WAW here. flaunting OM in my face. So I am neither guilty nor conflicted. Well arguably guilty of ..... in the M, but you kno what I mean.
Detaching with kids - well this is a hard one. Any of the guides you readout detachment from a R - the 1st step is NC. I stumbled on this for a while as although we live apart, we still HAVE to communicate re: the kids. I guess all you can do is set boundaries here. For us this is email only. Although that falls apart occasionally. Definitely when we have scheduled mid-week visit by other parent and kids are dropped off again.
MrBond asked you why you think you need to detach. I dont know what he is driving towards but I'm sure he has more to add. As a non vet I suspect you do need to detach at least to protect yourself and be able to continue with this situation more objectively. Trust me, if you love him detaching will not make you not love him. Detaching from this situation will make it all clearer to you, not less.
best of luck
-Py
MrBond asked you why you think you need to detach.
I dont know what he is driving towards but I'm sure he has more to add.
As a non vet I suspect you do need to detach at least to protect yourself and be able to continue with this situation more objectively.
Trust me, if you love him detaching will not make you not love him.
Detaching from this situation will make it all clearer to you, not less.
You ever notice that you can clearly see what others should do but cant see anything in your own situation.
That is because you are DETACHED from those sichs.
Text from H tonight:
"W, I respect you enough to know that you wouldn't intentionally let the Ds overhear you discussing elements of me that you are not happy about but please consider our eldest D bat ear and that she picks up our phones from time to time and could accidentally read messages. Thank you for your time earlier. H"
The fact is I have been very careful not to mention anything bad about H infront of the kids. He is a great father, so where has this come from and how to respond?
EMO, I've been a bit short of time today. I hope all is well and will check in when I can. But if I can still help on this, just let it be water of a duck's back and say something like:
"Thanks for having the courage to address this with me head on. You're absolutely right that it would be destructive for everyone involved if any of the children were hurt by this unneccesarily. You have my word I'll make sure the kids see me treat you only with the respect you deserve, and I appreciate the fact that you've done the same for me all along..."
Wow. I like it.
You ever notice that you can clearly see what others should do but cant see anything in your own situation.
That is because you are DETACHED from those sichs.
Hello EMO,
I think Cadet has the quote of the year!
This is why, and it took me quite a while to "get it," you need to detach and GAL.
Will it be easy? Probably not. What in life is easy that is really worth something?
Hang in there EMO. I've been thinking about you...you can do this.
Bob
hi Cadet - sorry I am confused again. I agree that it is easier to view other's situates more clearly because I am detached from them - but is your post meant to mean that I am being preachy OR something about MrBond's intention. Maybe you are just highlighting how detachment gives you the objectivity to be able to better "solve" a problem.
Maybe you are just highlighting how detachment gives you the objectivity to be able to better "solve" a problem.
Yes, trying to tell you the most important thing you can DO.
The DR book has arrived early! Will start reading tonight.
Just then H mentioned our communication - he wants to know if this will change because it stress him too much - sounds like this is one of my goals to put up. Basically I am 'cold', matter of fact when I speak to him. I know I need to become softer with my tone and perhaps have more 'niceties' when I speak.
BW told me to treat him as a friend - I understand that but everytime I open my mouth to talk, it comes out cold, uncaring.
H said he can't stand how our interaction will affect our Ds, if it continues then he believes moving out will be better for his mental health and for the girls.
I am in two minds, yes it would be easier if he moves out but I've noticed on other threads that it is better if you the WAS stays in the same roof so that they can see the change in you?
I am confused, do you think you can control whether he stays or goes?
No I can't control whether he stays or goes and I have told him it is his choice to leave or stay, I've said that to him
I think reading between the lines is he wants to stay but needs me to be more "friendly" to him.
I am confused too, as if he is feeling so stressed about our interactions wouldn't you just say I think its best I leave?
Py
Yes detaching with kids is hard. I am finding it difficult to not talk cold/uncaring to him infront of he kids. Texting is sooo much easier but my sitch is different from yours, as he is still living under the same roof....
Zues
Thanks for the words, I am actually going to use it! I suck at validating particularly since all this negative feeling is in me at the moment but willing to learn as I go through DR. I just need to follow through with my actions...
Yes detaching with kids is hard. I am finding it difficult to not talk cold/uncaring to him infront of he kids. Texting is sooo much easier but my sitch is different from yours, as he is still living under the same roof....
Your husband is depressed and I am guessing for years and years you helped him to get out of his depression.
Your marriage existed and all of a sudden he could no longer get out of his depression based on your words anymore.
So your husband blamed you for HIS depression.
Yes maybe you could speak nicer to him, or show him a little more sympathy or compassion.
I do not believe that would pull him out of his depression.
That is on him.
I think if you can not speak nicely to him it might be better to say nothing at all.
Do you know what his love languages are?
Right this minute I would read the DR book.
We can work on other changes later.
Follow Cadet's lead.
For the text about being nicer vs moving out, how about:
"You're right, I can see that I haven't kept my behavior in check lately. Where you live is your choice but either way I will make it a priority to treat you with the respect you deserve."
Thank you for your support Cadet and Zues. Reading DR now..
I do believe my H has been depressed for a while. H made a comment a few weeks ago that he wished we'd set up a cafe business we talked about before we moved back here in Oz. I know he hates my hometown and we were only to stay 3 months or so but have now stayed 10 years here. There have been many benefits staying here - family support, well paid jobs etc, but I should have realised he wasn't happy, considering he hasn't built a network of friends outside of my group of friends...
Ahh blew it again, I shouldn't have let H actions bother me, its the cycle mentioned in DR, his action causes me to react badly, my action causes him to react etc
I couldn't sleep last night and I was snooping through H friends in FB. When we were together he told all my friends he didn't like FB so he deactivated his account. He reactivated his FB account after his BD and has befriended everyone including my relatives etc.
I could only see our mutual friends and so I made an alias FB account and requested him to be my friend on this alias FB. So what did I find, that he is following two girls aged late teen/early twenties.
I was furious, went downstairs we had a row over it - him accusing me of snooping even though I said I wouldn't, me accusing him of trying to find a younger girl. Me saying he should move out, H saying he will after his mother visit, me threatening of tell his mum. The argument was bad, we didn't understand each other point of views.
I finally blurted out that I felt discarded after 18 years of being together, the fact that he is following two young girls on FB after he has thrown away 18 years of a R is a kick in the gut. I told him the issue with our SL wasn't his burden to hold alone, I apologised for putting too much pressure on him to fix it and that it was fixable if we just had opened up about our sexual desires (yes I know persuing..)
So broken every rule on DR but today is a new day and I woke up to find this email from H "I'm truly sorry for causing you even more pain and suffering with my stupid/insensitive choices." H has also deactivated his FB account...
So now I should finish the DR and try to fix this M
EMO- you're in a spot most of us on here would be thrilled for. You are living with your spouse who obviously still has feelings for you and has expressed some openness at being willing to fix the M. There are dozens of newcomers on these forums that are walking through hell to try to reach that point and have another chance at their M.
Yet instead of being appreciative of the opportunity you have, you are furious it isn't already fixed.
How can you criticize your H's behavior when yours is no healthier? If you want him to pull himself together and act like a mature adult, don't you kind of have to walk the walk yourself?
You may be separated soon and divorcing not much further down the road, and for the rest of your life you will wonder if it could've worked had you done things differently.
I think you are in a spot to save your M, AND change the dynamic to make it very fulfilling. But it won't happen by itself, and what you do now truly may make or break the situation. I'm not sure how many more attacks and ultimatums your R can withstand, but there is a breaking point. Ask any of us on these forums.
What I'd recommend you do right now is disconnect your behavior from your H. That's not to say detach, although that is critical. But detachment takes time, because it has to do with feelings. I'm talking BEHAVIOR. I don't care if you're detached or not, I'm saying STOP this type of negative interaction.
If you can't be warm and friendly in person, reduce contact and tell him why. "H- you're right, our interactions of late have been low quality and I have had a hard time treating you the way you deserve. We're both dealing with a lot and it's easy for us to fall into negative patterns which only opens the same wounds. I'd like to minimize our interactions for now and stick to email and text only, whether that's for a few days or a few weeks I'm not sure. But this will give us the time we need to do some thinking, give us the opportunity to hear each other without reacting, and hopefully allow us to be more positive in our communication. Regardless of what type of R we have going forward we'll need to form some new habits and break out of the old grooves. On that note feel free to email or text with what's on your mind, and I assure you I will be ready to hear what you have to say. Thank you H."
I don't know, I'm no vet and this is just an idea. But it might be a good idea to do some damage control in that way. Email can work wonders to free you from the reacting thing.
So to say it simply, commit to yourself NOT to engage with him when you're emotional, and maybe try reduced contact with some email exchanges to get healthier communication going. Before you email him back feel free to post here. Otherwise try meditating, praying, reading sandi's rules, and finding a balanced place where you are not being controlled by negative emotions. If you can do this for a short time it will get easier.
By the way, what I didn't say in the post above is I do understand how overwhelming the pain you're in is right now. I'm sorry I didn't already offer you my goodwill. I was more focused on hoping you save your M which is critical, but I never said it was easy. Hang in there!
^^ Trying to talk to H when emotions are running crazy wont help you at all. You really need to find a way to avoid reacting to your emotions/feelings. They get us in trouble. You seen now what its done, learn from it and keep moving forward.
Theres no easy or quick fix to these types of things, so you will need to have patience.
Zues - I KNOW my behaviour is unacceptable to me. I hate being run by my emotions, as I am a pretty relaxed kind of person. I’ve hated feeling the surge of anger, mixed with pain and grief and yes I know what I have done has or probably made my M in a more critical stage…
So emailed my reply to H stating how sorry I am of my behaviour and that he deserves trust and respect as he as been sincere with my feelings. Also told him communication is by text or email (thanks Zues) and brought up the issue that its his choice to move.
I have my two Ds tomorrow, extremely tired at the moment, need to do a job application plus start on an assignment on the course I'm doing.
Also did some retail therapy today to take my mind off things. H asked if I had lost weight when I briefly caught up with the Ds in the mall. My mind said "well with all this stress what would you expect!" but my mouth just softly said "yes".
EMO- you're in a spot most of us on here would be thrilled for. You are living with your spouse who obviously still has feelings for you and has expressed some openness at being willing to fix the M. There are dozens of newcomers on these forums that are walking through hell to try to reach that point and have another chance at their M.
Yet instead of being appreciative of the opportunity you have, you are furious it isn't already fixed.
Zues - I am confused if H does want to save this M. There has been numerous times where he has said there is no reconciliation. I know I should expect baby steps but I guess it is hard at the moment..
Great job EMO! Every successful interaction is a big win. Very proud of you!!!
Meanwhile, take a look at the last couple of pages of my current thread. You might find it interesting.
Tell you what EMO, I'm a guy that was much like your H. What I'm about to say is counter to every DB principle, but there are probably some magic words that would get him to come crawling back to you and trying to do everything he could to live up to your standards.
Look at him as a dog that was so hungry he ate food off the counter. No, dogs shouldn't eat off your counter. But when he's starving it's not fair to yell at him. Now, after reading my thread you will see what he is starving for is not all your fault. He's all twisted up. But he feels like you'll never approve of him, accept him, understand him, forgive him, or satisfy him. And every time you blast him for his behavior (be it porn, eyeballing young women, etc) he feels that you're attacking him personally, because his behavior is tied to his needs, and he feels like you're saying there's something wrong with the needs he has.
Before I go further I'm not suggesting you email him the following...only that I would expect him to be putty in your hands if you did. I tell you this because I want you to be accountable for how much you, as a woman, can influence the dynamic.
"H, I'm sorry our M has gone so far off track. It's caused us both a lot of pain. Though this current breakdown has been very difficult, it has opened my eyes to some things that should have been addressed a long time ago. First of all, I have come to understand how much you mean to me. You have always been loyal, responsible, and dedicated, even when your own needs weren't being met and you were suffering because of it. When I talk to my girlfriends I've always told them how lucky I am to have a guy like you, but I never really showed you how I felt in the right ways.
It's true that porn has been a divisive issue, but I don't think it has to spell the end of our M. I have come to understand much more about what is so compelling about porn, and why it is so hard to let go. What I've learned is that it can be used to meet not just physical needs such as release, but emotional needs such as being understood and approved of. It's a safe spot where you can be open and explore your sexuality with a guarantee not to be rejected, but instead to be fulfilled. Given the lack of understanding and fulfillment in our M I can see I contributed to an environment that made this lure seemingly irresistible.
H, I'm not prepared to be in an M with long term daily porn use. That said, I understand you would need much, much more from our M to be able to trust that you could be satisfied and be able to make (or keep) a promise around that subject. I don't want to set you up for failure, your my H, I love you, and I would love to support you while you take steps to grow stronger. If that means we go to M counseling, a retreat, etc, I'm willing to hold your hand and walk by your side.
And I'm willing to be open to hearing what you'd need from me to be fulfilled in our M. And that's an invitation. If this sounds appealing to you, feel free to stop up to the bedroom and let me show you how understanding I can be of what a man needs. Maybe we should take advantage of the marital vows that say "from this day forward". And what better way to start that than with a second honeymoon?
"
EMO- as some vets, I don't know anymore, this is so different from DBing that I'm not sure it's a good idea. All I know is that if my W had written this letter to me I would've walked on fire for her. It gives him hope that you can see him in a positive light. It is validating of who he is and what he needs. And while it states a boundary, it offers a promise of a loving, supporting, and devoted W. One that is willing to be his temptress. Finally, the invite is powerful because you're promising not to reject him which, combined with the words you wrote which are all about approval/appreciation/validation which are powerful aphrodisiacs to a man, so he can trust coming to you with his love and not fearing rejection. You two could ML passionately, hold each other, make each other feel understood...then it would just require LOTS of aftermath with some joint counseling, etc. But I would be surprised if he didn't keep walking a positive trail if you kept rereading this letter to yourself and acting it out with him.
Vets, feel free to contradict. I am speaking as a carbon copy of her last H and not as a DB member. Please advise.
Thanks Zues
I am unsure if he is a daily user, perhaps he is and not admitting. I think it is too soon to send such an email after last night row plus I think an email like that would stress him out. He told me last night that he can't talk about our sitch because its too stressful for him. So I have to back off and see if he opens up ( part of me hopes so but the other part of me says its just too hard for him)
He replied to my email with a "thank you W", at least he replied.
Your suggestion is very different to DB rules and the difference between my H and yourself is that you've acknowledged your actions to your sitch, my H has not figured out WHY that passion disappeared - was it porn (who knows he had to speak to his counsellor to get an understanding), perhaps its because his depressed or perhaps its the anxiety/stress of everything including our SL.
The thing is I can see where I went wrong:
I put too much pressure on him to solve the issue
I should have been more proactive
I should have opened up more about my desires (rather than wait for him..)
I should have not been judgmental on him when I first discovered porn and yeah I should have been more appreciative of him in general..
Agreed with not sending it...hopefully you'll reread it a few times so you have some healing words in your heart for when they may be appropriate.
I like your likst. I would add "understanding his desires and validating them" as an addition for the TOP of the list. I'm not defending porn as a behavior, but there is a reason that it is one of the biggest industries in the world. There is a reason that sex is one of the biggest marriage breakers. If you read my exchange with gan from her last thread you'll know I said I feel it's importance was underestimated by a factor of 10 or 100. I told this to BW once- I'd encourage you to go to the 'sex starved marriage' section of these forums and spend a little time DAILY reading from men that have posted there.
With all of this said you're doing a great job today making positive interactions, being low key, and focusing on yourself. Don't worry, there will be opportunities for you to speak your own voice as well. Be patient and keep trucking EMO!
Good point about understanding his desires and validating them
So first day over with no face to face contact with H. I will admit it was hard. H went out for a couple of hours yesterday. Had the Ds most of the time, when H got back he spent most of it inside his room until Ds went back to him in the evening. No effort from H to engage. Patience they say is a virtue...
Patience is a virtue and one od the hardest aspects of DBing! Definitely something I struggle with. Glad you survived first day of NC.
BW - I am struggling with it too and trying to find it again, I have loads of patience to give but its blocked by my fear of how this sitch may eventuate. Hoping the next 5 days will be easier, my MIL will arrive from the UK on the weekend, perhaps an opportunity to engage..
how are you going BTW?
EMO, I've been thinking of you often. I wish we could all take a portion of your pain and help you through.
I feel like you're very anxious. Sometimes what helps is to do some work. Would you like a homework assignment? You don't have to, but here are some things I would be happy to see you share if you feel like it:
What are the things you have in your life right now you're most grateful for?
What are the things that make you EMO, that you like about yourself?
Post if you'd like, and take care!
I am hanging in there. Have my good days and my bad days. Still dealing with an H that is still very likely in A, but at same time seems to being trying to make effort to try and reconnect with me. So cake-eating?! H looks me in the eye and says there is nothing going on, but my gut and little clues tell me otherwise. Tend to trust my gut. Hard to look at the person you love and not even recognize who they are now.
That being said, working on mentally letting go of H so that I take myself out of the back and forth cycle of cake eating. Have been doing great with GAL and fitness the past couple of weeks. Plus, working on learning about communicating my feelings more so that I don't hold things in and then explode!
BW - So sorry about your sitch and yes its very hard to look at the person you love and not recognise who they are. Glad to hear you are doing keeping up with GAL and fitness. One thing I am finding difficult is maintaining a "cheerful and positive" front particularly if I see my H.
Zues - at the moment I am very grateful for my family especially my mum and cousin who live with me and my network of very close girlfriends, they have given me immense support and encouragement that things will get better (with or without H). I am also grateful for my two beautiful Ds, who are my ray of sunshine and innocent parties to this sitch.
Hmm things I like about me? Well I used to be a happy-go lucky kinda person – carefree and adventurous; I love dancing (forgot I liked this until I this weekend when I went a bit crazy inside the house, my youngest D laughed and said mummy you need to stop eating sugar!). I am considerate, patience and a loyal companion/friend. That's all I can think for now...
Emailing my H about arranging time with Ds this weekend while his mum is here. I am inviting his mum to join myself and the girls on an outing on Saturday night - is that too rude? or should I include H too - (I think its too soon since my last emotional row)
Can any vets give advice?
I am considering telling my MIL about my bad behaviour when she is here the snooping and monitoring of H during the last 3 weeks. This is sort of a 180 for me because I portrary this passive, quiet, reserved individual who seems to hold no grudges..
Noticed today when I went downstairs to give the Ds their dessert, H deliberately left the lounge room and went into his bedroom. Guess he is still mad with my behaviour ( and so he should be...)
Can any of the vets tell me how you know if your WAS has an EA?
H is good friends with a married lady who is active in the school community. He taught both her kids and my youngest is good friends with her youngest son. She even looked after my youngest D when she attended the same preschool as her son.
They are both on the school council, she owns a play gym which he takes the kids to most time on Friday. He even initiated that the kids play hockey because her boys played there.
H went to talk to her after he asked for separation. I got really jealous and made a snide remark "oH you spoke to OW". H defended her saying she has done a lot to help us out and that she has actually got him to look at how I would feel and has defended my feelings. Its probably one friend he does have.
H has said there is no attraction physically/emotionally going on - I do not think there is a PA but EA perhaps? I know her she knows me (but not well enough)and she is very nice and friendly, and has even said if I needed support with the kids she could help out.
Should I talk to her upfront? Part of me wants to but I think H would be furious with not trusting his words..
Agreed to not loop her in. It would appear very controlling, suspicious, desperate, and maybe even a bit crazy in his eyes.
There are pros and cons of trying to uncover an EA/PA. Right now I would vote against any kind of snooping. Your main priority needs to be detaching and keeping your eyes on your own behavior. I totally understand why so many of your posts revolve around your H, but if you want to make progress you have to let him go on his journey separate from yours.
One question in DR/DB is what would you do with your life if your H just wasn't around anymore? I think it's a good one to answer. Might give you some ideas of what you can be doing for yourself.
Hope you're making it through EMO.
Can any of the vets tell me how you know if your WAS has an EA?
H is good friends with a married lady who is active in the school community. He taught both her kids and my youngest is good friends with her youngest son. She even looked after my youngest D when she attended the same preschool as her son.
They are both on the school council, she owns a play gym which he takes the kids to most time on Friday. He even initiated that the kids play hockey because her boys played there.
H went to talk to her after he asked for separation. I got really jealous and made a snide remark "oH you spoke to OW". H defended her saying she has done a lot to help us out and that she has actually got him to look at how I would feel and has defended my feelings. Its probably one friend he does have.
H has said there is no attraction physically/emotionally going on - I do not think there is a PA but EA perhaps? I know her she knows me (but not well enough)and she is very nice and friendly, and has even said if I needed support with the kids she could help out.
Should I talk to her upfront? Part of me wants to but I think H would be furious with not trusting his words..
I haven't read the beginning of this thread yet - going back to start from the beginning, but just posting about this last issue:
I'm not a vet here, but this sounds classic to me. It's how H started his relationship with me (we were just friends and he told me he was separated at the time), and how he started his affair with OW.
Defending her is also typical. He has confided in her about your relationship and that is inappropriate. If he wants to talk to someone, suggest IC or MC.
I think all you can do is tell H that you are HIGHLY uncomfortable with this woman being involved in your marriage problems, and that it is a very typical and dangerous situation. Ask him how he would feel if you had done the same thing with a man. All you can do, is express how you feel and hope he respects your wishes.
I started talking to a male friend about our difficulties when it got really rough between H and myself. I cut off contact with him after a while because it got uncomfortable because it was inappropriate. I was not the least bit attracted to this guy, but I know he was attracted to me.
A separation should be a time for the two of you to focus on your marriage and what you can do to repair it. If there is another person involved, a 'friend' of the opposite sex, it will make it extremely difficult to repair the M. If you can get him to go to MC, the counselor will hopefully back you up on this.
I told my H that is he was involved with OW on any level, there would be no reconciliation or attempt to work on the M. Also, if he wanted to separate at any point to 'shop around', like he has said a few times, there will be no way back - that's a one-way street to divorce. I have been very clear on that with him.
He claims that he could be with OW while I was away because we were separated (he decided without telling me), but that's actually
illegal in our state, unless you have a legal agreement specifying that it's agreed on. This is not the only state where you're 100% married until divorced.
I think it's okay to show a WAS what they are risking. I've set some very clear boundaries in place for H, in a calm and matter-of-fact way, but he knows I mean it. I think that has pulled him back down on the ground and made him realize what he stands to lose.
Painter, I respect you and your point of view. I happen to feel differently and am only posting so EMO has a range of options to choose from.
EMO, I feel you've been extremely controlling during your M, and you two are in a very tightly woven and destructive dance. I feel you need to separate from each other right now.
You are not here to define what a separation looks like. You don't get to decide that. You don't get to control him. Ultimatums about an affair are just more control. They don't work, and just drive him further away. I understand that Painter suggested more of a boundary than an ultimatum, but I don't perceive it this way.
Telling him you are uncomfortable with this R, that it's inappropriate...again, more control over his behavior. Asking how he'd like it- he'll defend, minimize. All of this just seems like a recipe to start another fight and stay focused on him.
By the way, I'm not disagreeing that the R is inappropriate for a HEALTHY M that has two committed individuals...but right now what he does is none of your concern. Let him go on his path, you take care of you.
OK, now you have two points of view. You can decide which one seems like the right path for your highest and best spiritual self to follow.
Zues- thanks will not engage with her. Spoke to my counsellor about it and said that he probably hasn't realised there is an emotional connection.
Painter - even though we are in the process of separation my H said to no reconciliation. I agree separation should be about what we can do to focus on this marriage but H has different ideas, he wants the D after 12 months though he has not said that to me directly.
I don't think he even sees how inappropriate it is to talk to a female friend about our relationship. GF to GF yes but MF to GF not so sure.
Anyhow I've got requested her mobile number from him and he gave it to me without hesitation. So my plan is to continue to be polite and friendly with her.
Zues, respect and appreciate your views, but actually I perceive to him to be controlling during our M. Maybe we were are both trying to control certain aspects of our M, trying to tell each other what we want but not listening..
I was just making that assumption because of the many controlling actions you've taken since the start of this thread. I don't believe they come out of nowhere one day. And I also believe that many co-dependent relationships are formed where both parties try to control each other in different ways. So though it wasn't your intent or how you perceive yourself, I'd imagine it was his perception and a factor in your M.
But I will tell you I'm not a vet, nor a mind reader. If you are satisfied that controlling doesn't apply to you during the M then you can leave anything I write that doesn't help your journey. Hey- I'm not controlling, so it's fine with me if you aren't either
Yes from an external point of view I can see how my recent behaviour and the start of this thread is seen as controlling and negative.
I do believe we have a codependent relationship. Both of us trying to conform to each other's wishes or change. Late last year I was soo annoyed with him for posting pictures of him and our Ds on my FB account - (why? because I felt I needed an identity outside of our M)
I've realised that is what I need to do now. To get an identity - like you said Zues what would I like to be without H. I have a fair mind of the person I would like to be - I've started the process, being more involved in community is my first goal along with getting a job!
Zues, your posts are extremely insightful and you give great advice!
I completely respect your input about my post.
I think it's extremely challenging to salvage or revive a marriage if anyone else is involved, and I think what's being described, sounds like the typical start of an EA - been there, done that.
I'm not saying to throw in the towel or that all is lost, but the hill is much, much steeper if there is an outsider involved.
It's correct what you say that I presented this to my H as my boundaries, not ultimatums, and not all at once. They came out in conversations as we progressed to reconciliation. It was of course completely his choice if he wanted to reconcile, separate, or go for any other option, and I said that in those same conversations.
But it was necessary for me to draw the boundaries that felt important to me, and I actually think they ultimately made H have more respect for me, as well as snap out of the fog and get more realistic about what he was heading towards. I think my clear lines may have worked as a reality check.
This poster is in a somewhat different situation and a different phase, so different things may work for her. I don't think we should give up our boundaries, though, and I think it's very possible to express one's boundaries without trying to control what the other person does.
For me, it has also allowed me to let go of a lot of small stuff - I don't have to think about what I'm okay with or not as things happen, I can let it go because I know what my big issues are and where I draw the line. Does that make sense?
EMO, I understand about wanting a decision NOW, to end the pain, get a grip on life, know which direction you're going in, wrap things up. Patience in the middle of confusion and pain is almost inhumane to expect. If you can hang in there, you may find a way, though.
Expect to blow it. All we can do is apologize, pick up the pieces and try again. The first time you pick up a guitar, you're not going to make beautiful music.
I've come to the conclusion that this very painful situation is actually an opportunity for me to improve myself and get rid of some bad habits, and possibly for H and myself to revive our M. I have no idea if we'll make it yet. Some days I feel confident, other days I'm very pessimistic. It's become the new normal... Meanwhile, I practice my new self.
I write in a journal as well as on the board. It's more contemplative than writing on a message board, so it has a little different purpose but helps me put thoughts away until counseling or until I have calmed down.
Are you seeing a counselor?
Also I wondered, why did you ask him for her number?
Painter - thanks for your support and I am hanging in there. Such a difficult situation to be in. To answer your question, I asked for her mobile number because our eldest D works at her business every Sunday plus I usually give away my youngest D clothes to her youngest D. So valid reasons. I am no way now going to become "her best friend" I do not know her well enough.
The last time I spoke to her I mentioned to her that I hope H is happy with the choice he made. H then texted me to say "please don't tell people I am happy because I am not". I clarified my statement stating that "What I said to the OW, I didn't say you were happy, I meant to say I hope you are resolved with your choice..." I haven't engaged with her since then and I plan not to. It is up to H on how he choices to interact with OW.
Yes seeing a Counselor and she has been brilliant - telling me to move on with my life, baby steps because the pain is so unbearable.
Zues, your posts are extremely insightful and you give great advice!
I completely respect your input about my post.
I think it's extremely challenging to salvage or revive a marriage if anyone else is involved, and I think what's being described, sounds like the typical start of an EA - been there, done that.
I'm not saying to throw in the towel or that all is lost, but the hill is much, much steeper if there is an outsider involved.
It's correct what you say that I presented this to my H as my boundaries, not ultimatums, and not all at once. They came out in conversations as we progressed to reconciliation. It was of course completely his choice if he wanted to reconcile, separate, or go for any other option, and I said that in those same conversations.
But it was necessary for me to draw the boundaries that felt important to me, and I actually think they ultimately made H have more respect for me, as well as snap out of the fog and get more realistic about what he was heading towards. I think my clear lines may have worked as a reality check.
This poster is in a somewhat different situation and a different phase, so different things may work for her. I don't think we should give up our boundaries, though, and I think it's very possible to express one's boundaries without trying to control what the other person does.
Thanks Painter, it's mutual. I agree a spouse in an EA/PA can't work on an M, and that if you are aware of that you should protect yourself. Sometimes you can communicate boundaries. Other times you just demonstrate them with action. But the question here wasn't what to do with a revealed EA/PA, it was whether to start snooping or checking up on H to try to get intel. That's where I felt EMO should chill and see how things played out. And by focusing on herself and detaching she can kind of be as prepared as possible to handle any contingency cool, calm, and collected. And true to her best self.
For me, it has also allowed me to let go of a lot of small stuff - I don't have to think about what I'm okay with or not as things happen, I can let it go because I know what my big issues are and where I draw the line. Does that make sense?...
...I understand about wanting a decision NOW, to end the pain, get a grip on life, know which direction you're going in, wrap things up. Patience in the middle of confusion and pain is almost inhumane to expect. If you can hang in there, you may find a way, though.
The only part I find a little odd is how the quotes from your last two posts contrast. I just posted on Smothy's thread to Py. He was repeatedly deciding what may or may not be possible in the future. I told him he was in an emotionally agitated state of mind and reminded him about counting to 10...in DB land that is 10 months and then some! My point is that I hesitate to make declarative statements about the conditions in which I will terminate a lifelong marriage. The second part is all about recognizing the tendency to want to map out all of the answers, but the first part is all about doing just that so you don't have to think about it again (little exaggerated).
My opinion- you DON'T have to think about it again and again. Just detach. Don't worry about it. If the day comes WAS comes back, then see how you feel THEN, see what transpired, the context it was in, do some soul searching...maybe even let some time pass, get to know WAS, go to some counceling, see if you feel it was circumstantial and situational temporary insanity, or if it's character flaws, can it be worked through, can you make some sacrifices, etc. I think it can be a tough decision, but we're talking about an M, I don't like just closing a door because the flow chart you made in month 1 after BD said so! Granted, a PA is a [url=serioushttp://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2569381#Post2569381][url=serioushttp://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2569381#Post2569381][url=serioushttp://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2569381#Post2569381]serioushttp://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2569381#Post2569381[/url][/url][/url] thing...but even still, these are just my thoughts.
So I think the key is to detach, and exactly as you said, be patient, and be ok not having all of the answers. At least that's the road I've followed.
PS- start a new thread EMO!
New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2569381#Post2569381