My first thread is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545933&page=11Right now:
I have made the decision to spend the weekend with the children and do not think about if it helps W or not. I love my kids and they love me. Once I stopped being stubborn and stopped caring about her "interpretation", it was a no-brainer.
Your replies to my desperate and weird posts really helped me to get back on track. Applying the basic principles and building the right mindset and not get caught up with "strategy A vs strategy B".
Everything I read, that really gives me the aha-moment, is about detachment. NMMNG and Models are the most read ones right now.
Physical detachment is a more or less simple concept for me, but the emotional detachment is another story. Due to the fact that I am A) not used to recognize my emotions and B) usually deal with them in the way of getting approval from others or just pushing them away, I really struggle at this point.
Do you have any hands-on advice for starting and moving on with emotional detachment?
What do you like to do that makes you happy?
What do you like to do that makes you happy?
That is a tough question. As a codependent person, I was living for the approval of others. My game was, to make the other people happy and than they would feed me with love. So I have difficulties to answer this one. Although, when I think about it:
I love watching my bee hive.
I love to walk the streets at night.
I love to sit in the garden with a nice cup of tea.
I love to chat with my kids.
Most of the time I love my job.
I love to take long showers.
I love to take the dog out for a walk on a rainy day.
I love to sit in a café, watching people.
I love dancing, when no one is around.
I love to watch a good horror movie.
I love baking for others.
I love reading books about psychology and sociology.
I love to listen to good singer- songwriters.
I love to watch stand-up comedy.
Well, there is actually plenty of stuff. I am amazed. Usually I do not ask myself what I enjoy.
The first day with the kids was great. I am glad, that I am here right now. We have had a BBQ yesterday, D14 and I enjoyed a movie, I play with the dog, have coffee, make music, we are chatting and having fun.
Yesterday W offered me to sleep in the children room. My first reaction was: "sounds ok, it does not matter where I sleep". In the end I chose the MBR. Because I am not a child and I want to sleep in MY bed and not in a children room. Oh, how I have missed this mattress. For the first time in weeks I have slept like a baby. Never underestimate a good mattress.
Can you move back in permanently?
Stay in the MBR now that you are there?
That is what I would suggest as the #1 priority!
Can you move back in permanently?
Stay in the MBR now that you are there?
That is what I would suggest as the #1 priority!
When she asked me to leave the house asap, I accepted, because I was desperate and would have done everything to make her happy. That was about 7 weeks ago. We have signed the contract for the rented house both. So legally I could move back whenever I want to. But that would cause REAL trouble. Than the s**t would really hit the fan.
She would think that I pursue her and she would feel pressured by me being in the house. She is redecorating stuff, painting the wardrobe and so on. In her future plans, I am no longer part of this household. I will not make things worse, although it is not a manly thing to let your spouse tell you where you have to live.
No. I pay for the children. Not for the rent.
No. I pay for the children. Not for the rent.
Do you have a custody agreement or arrangement for the kids?
Also when you moved out did you split the household "stuff" or is there anything still remaining besides the bed that you want?
Cause I dont know your laws but here it could be seen as abandonment and forfiture of it.
We do not have any "official" agreement yet. i just moved out to clean the air. We did not split anything. I still have some of my stuff here. Do you mean, that I would loose the right of living here?
She would keep everything from furnitures to TV. I would just pck my few own belongings.
OK, I was just concerned you might lose some of your legal rights.
Most importantly to your kids!
They may be old enough that it does not matter.
In Germany it is standard, that after the D, both parents have full child custody. If you wanted something else you would need to have good reasons (abuse, violence...).
The 2nd day with children has been great too. Yesterday: cooking together, watching TV. D14 is a singer songwriter herself, so we are talking about song-writing, guitars and different guitar tunings from time to time.
I have worked on two things regarding DB on this weekend.
1) In DR you can read the advice to bring up a mental stop sign, whenever you think about your spouse. I have swapped the sign with an annoying buzzer sound. I am a more auditive person.
2) Since I am a nice guy/co-dependent, I came up with some statements, that I am going to read to myself a few times a day. I would really appreciate your thoughts on them. If the grammar or the words should be wrong, just let me know.
- Today I strive for standing up for myself, like a healthy man, without defensiveness, excuses or explanations
- Today I strive for setting healthy boundaries, to protect my self respect, my honour and my dignity
- Today I strive for loving myself as I am, honouring myself and taking care of my needs and my well-being
- Today I strive for making my own hopes, visions and dreams a priority above the hopes, visions and dreams of others
- Today I strive for honest and loving communication with others
- Today I strive for consciously enjoying the good moments of the day and open myself up for the love and approval of others
- Today I strive for accepting, that I have the right to say “Yes”, “No” and “Maybe”
- Today I strive for asking others for their help, if I need them
- Today I strive for making little steps to overcome fear, when it raises its head
- Today I strive for acknowledging my emotions and deal with them in an adult way
- Today I strive for accepting adults as adults, responsible for their own lives. I will not control them, manipulate them or use them to make me feel better
- Today I strive for accepting live as it is and to deal with reality as it is
- Today I strive for choosing risk taking over fear and practice to detach my decision making from the outcome
And one more question:
I have noticed lately that many (me included), have great ideas and thoughts about how to deal with the sitch. But when it comes to the point, to APPLY those great thoughts, we struggle. So to the vets: what might be the reason for this and how can one overcome this problem? Is it about discipline or the right mindset or is it just normal and we can not do anything about it? I do not want to be the guy that makes big promises about "going to the gym", but ends up eating chocolate and ice cream instead. How can I avoid this trap?
Hi Koalada,
I'm not a vet at all. Congrats on recognising you're an auditive person and having a buzzer as your thought stopper.
Regarding your mindset, it is just that - YOUR MINDSET! You get to determine what that will be. Is it hard to change? Hell yes! Can you do it? Hell yes! Make plans and follow through on them. Set a reminder on your phone, mark it in your diary/on a calender - do whatever you need to do to make sure you get up and do it.
For me, I've been using Meetup to arrange things. I look and look at events that are on and think 'ohhh I might go to that'. It's only when I actively reply yes to an event that it becomes real that I'm going. In other words - TAKE ACTION!
Hi Koa,
Your actions need to be attainable. Instead of going to the gym, consider just get out of the house. Get out and drive. You have to get out and do something everyday but it can be small that leads to bigger things.
Hi Koa,
Your actions need to be attainable. Instead of going to the gym, consider just get out of the house. Get out and drive. You have to get out and do something everyday but it can be small that leads to bigger things.
So emotional detachment needs to be practiced on a regular basis in order to become a habit?
Hi Koa,
Your actions need to be attainable. Instead of going to the gym, consider just get out of the house. Get out and drive. You have to get out and do something everyday but it can be small that leads to bigger things.
So emotional detachment needs to be practiced on a regular basis in order to become a habit?
YES!
I have had a great weekend with the kids. Thanks to all of you for helping me to get the focus back on the children. Otherwise I would have missed a wonderful time with people that I love. S10 did not want to let me go. Right under her nose: "don't leave daddy, stay with us"
W is still exhausted and looks worried. She lost even more weight. She said it's not a health issue, she would take care of her nutrition. Why is she not happy? She got rid of me, has a new love in her head and can start a new life. She should have bright eyes and a big smile on her face. What kind of "falling in love" is this?
This day was a good day. Work was good, riding the bicycle was fun, and I have spent time with S10. We have played soccer and had an ice cream. And I have won something at a raffle.
The only negative part about it was:
When I went to the bedroom, to use my computer, I discovered, that W had removed my mattress and the slatted frame from the twin bed. Now she has a twin bed with a huge gap. Before I said anything wrong, I just left. I might read to much into it, but maybe it helps her to detach from M?
Well who knows? I am still not a mind reader and 95% of this day was great. On Thursday I go to the movies with S10. I am looking forward to this.
Hey koalada, are you coming over to NMMNG?
I have left the (old) house and at the place I am living right now is a weak internet connection. It would not work. Sorry for this mate.
I have been to the (old) house for the video chat, but needed to leave. I know it sounds like a weak excuse. I really want to be part of this NMMNG group, but the only way to handle my emotions was to leave. I was a bit upset about this "bed-gate". I have slept the last weeks in a shi***y bed, in a messed up house with mice and fleas. But I have noticed, that I have calmed down faster than before.
Again a good day. It is sunny, I have had a long conversation with D14, some nice tea and coffee and wrote a song for D14. She is in the midst of puberty and needs some encouragement. She loves the song.
W and I had a short phone conversation about D14. I was friendly, I have let her finish her sentences (one of my 180's..I was quiet annoying from time to time) and ended the conversation, when there was nothing more to say.
Dear friends, I would love to get some advice on my situation.
I have been to the movies with S10. I have picked him up at home and brought him back. I said "Hello" to D14 and S16 and left. Since that moment I feel sad and empty. They continue their family life without me. I know it is self pity, but I was close to tears.
I am pondering on the idea of moving back into the house. Why do I have to leave, if she is the one with the problem? If she can't stay in my presence, she can leave the house. Why am I the one who looses the everyday contact with the children and lives in a sh***thole?
I might sound like a jerk, but this feels unjust to me. Am I a lame duck, because I have left the house and did not insist on her leaving? If I move back, would she be reminded of the husband she hates? Would it make things worse?
Maybe I would would have a tiny victory, but would loose the battle.
I would move back in - is it a house that you share the mortgage with? If so, it's 50% yours and get back in there. I would maintain a separate living quarters but get back in there.
She had the affair right? You move back in and make her leave! I would also reclaim the maritial bed. Again, she had the affair.
In theory HeavyD is right. NMMNG koalada.
Speaking of NMMNG, one of the guys also has a terrible internet connection so we turned off the video. You could try that.
The house is rented. We have both signed the contract.
Pretty standard advice here is for the LBS not to leave the marital home. If the WAS wants out of the marriage, they should leave.
A few minutes ago I had a phone conversation with D14. She said that she is sad about the fact, that something as "normal" as shopping together, becomes something special. She is afraid, that there might be a time, when I only be there once a week.
I encouraged her to talk about her emotions, whenever she needs it. I have told her, that she has the right to say, when she feels bad or suffers. She would have not to deal with her emotions on her own, that we as parents are responsible to listen to her, when she is sad about something. She had the idea, that she should not bother us with her emotions.
In theory HeavyD is right. NMMNG koalada.
Speaking of NMMNG, one of the guys also has a terrible internet connection so we turned off the video. You could try that.
Why "in theory"?
P.s. And I will try it without the video.
It seems, that 2 of my posts got lost.
#1 The house is rented. We have both singed the contract.
#2 I have had my first counselling session this morning. We have started with my family background and it was good to look back at my roots from the position of an adult. My counsellor told me, that I should focus on myself and work on the foundations of my personality. We have not spoken about the M very much.
In theory just because you've already gone and it would be more difficult. Not impossible though if you're both signatories to the rental agreement.
I look forward to the next NMMNG session on Monday (not Sunday) then.
I have slept a night over my decision. I will move back into the house.
I have thought about my co-dependency issue and moving out of the house was a continuation of my "martyr"-behaviour (I suffer and do everything to make my W happy, so other people might discover how wonderful and loving I am). It might be the easier way to be physically detached, but I would never forgive myself being a wimp in this situation and avoid the confrontation. This is not about W, it is about getting out of MY patterns, getting my dignity back.
If W starts nagging and yelling, than I have to stand it. This might all end in D, but at least I will keep my dignity and stop this never-ending cycle of pleasing the world with my behaviour. I have to do what is acceptable for me, I am no longer a child that needs the permission of others. Will it cause trouble? Yes! So be it.
I will let you know, how she reacted.
W immediately phoned me.
"You can not do this."
"We have to talk about it before and make a plan and go to a mediator."
"Think about the negative effects on the children."
"you are trying to put pressure on me."
"How can I leave the M, if you don't let me?"
So I have moved back and W is pretty angry about it.
*She tried to make me feel guilty "have you got an idea, how painful it is for the children?",
*tried to impose conditions on me"when you move back, I want you to sign a separation agreement and go with me to mediation"),
*tried the dominant approach "you will not move in!"
My first impulse was, to give up and say anything to get out of the conflict. But I stayed polite, but firm and now I am back home. My mattress, my slatted frames.
What are your experiences with mediation or separation agreements? Can they become a disadvantage for my situation? And regarding the "living together", what should I be aware off? Any traps, any danger zones?
My plan is to GAL and spent time with the kids and I am looking for a full-time position in order to double my income.
Good for you!
She can move out if that is what she wants!
Keep your Spew jacket on.
Keep your Spew jacket on.
I have never heard this word. What is a spew jacket?
Keep your Spew jacket on.
I have never heard this word. What is a spew jacket?
Like a metal flak jacket,
worn to protect yourself from incoming attacks.
This one protects you from anything she says
it causes the words to bounce off you and
crumble to the ground without inflicting any damage to you
or your mind.
I will definitely need one.
Has anyone an idea, why I am sometimes afraid of my w if she becomes angry? Many many men I know, can not stand their angry spouses. Is this normal for a man? And what are the females on this board thinking about it? Have you ever noticed you H or XH being afraid of your anger? And do women really favour men that can make a firm stand in the heat of an argument?
Koa,
My H definitely claimed to have a problem with my anger, directness, confrontational style. I believe some of this was valid in the sense I was hurling anger at him pre BD.
But in the beginning...idk. I was always calm, rational, quite assertive and he would escalate and blame me for having anger 'seeping' out of me.
I believe - since you asked - people pleasers have a hard time accepting when others aren't pleased with their actions. Some men have trouble standing up for themselves by saying yes, no, or letting it be ok that someone is upset. I believe this is insecurity to be so afraid of another's emotions. Unless your W anger is abusive to you? Shaming, belittling, name calling?
Personally, if there is something I'm upset about, I would like a partner to be able to listen, validate. Offer his thoughts in return for same. How can people be intimate if they are not honest and able o work tgrough real feelings?
Congratulations koalada!
RAI
Koa,
Unless your W anger is abusive to you? Shaming, belittling, name calling?
No name calling or shaming. I think she tries to be fair. But she can become loud and pushing if she really wants something and does not get it. In our M one of her problems has been, that she has lost every respect for me. She thought of me as a wimp and I guess she was right about it. I avoided conflicts with the landlord, with other parents that have treated our child unfair, with our neighbours...you name it. She needed a man that stood up for her and the family, that took the responsibility for making more money. And that man wasn't me.
The 2nd day with children has been great too. Yesterday: cooking together, watching TV. D14 is a singer songwriter herself, so we are talking about song-writing, guitars and different guitar tunings from time to time.
I have worked on two things regarding DB on this weekend.
1) In DR you can read the advice to bring up a mental stop sign, whenever you think about your spouse. I have swapped the sign with an annoying buzzer sound. I am a more auditive person.
2) Since I am a nice guy/co-dependent, I came up with some statements, that I am going to read to myself a few times a day. I would really appreciate your thoughts on them. If the grammar or the words should be wrong, just let me know.
- Today I strive for will stand up for myself, like a healthy man, without defensiveness, excuses or explanations
- Today I strive for will set healthy boundaries, to protect my self respect, my honour and my dignity
- Today I strive for will love myself as I am, honouring myself and taking care of my needs and my well-being
- Today I strive for make my own hopes, visions and dreams a priority above the hopes, visions and dreams of others
- Today I strive for will be honest and loving in my communication with others (remember this is ONLY about what YOU can do, and NOT about how others behave or see it).
- Today I strive for will consciously enjoy the good moments of the day and open myself up for the love and approval of others
- Today I strive will exercise choice for accepting, that I have the right to say “Yes”, “No” and “Maybe”
- Today I strive for will ask others for their help, if I need them
- Today I strive for will take steps to making little steps to overcome fear, when it raises its head
- Today I strive for will acknowledge my emotions and deal with them in an adult way
- Today I strive for will accept adults as adults, responsible for their own lives. I will not control them, manipulate them or use them to make me feel better
- Today I strive for accept life as it is and to deal with reality as it is
- Today I strive for [color:#CC0000]will choose risk taking over fear and detach myself from the outcome
I think you can see my point ^^ above, yes? Don't "strive for" so much as just DO IT.
It'll come much faster if you hold yourself to an adult standard b/c that's who you are. (No offense meant).
Make sense?
I will definitely need one.
Has anyone an idea, why I am sometimes afraid of my w if she becomes angry? Many many men I know, can not stand their angry spouses. Is this normal for a man? And what are the females on this board thinking about it? Have you ever noticed you H or XH being afraid of your anger? And do women really favour men that can make a firm stand in the heat of an argument?
You are afraid because you have not detached from your W. You have become dependent on her and so you are at the whim of her emotions.
It's okay to be afraid. No one thinks any less of you for it. But you need to detach yourself from her and start your NG recovery.
You are afraid because you have not detached from your W. You have become dependent on her and so you are at the whim of her emotions.
It's okay to be afraid. No one thinks any less of you for it. But you need to detach yourself from her and start your NG recovery.
Wow, this an eye opener for me. It fits perfectly into the things I have been pondering on the last weeks:
#1 "We are defined by our fears".
#2 "Stop helping people to oppress you"
I always have been waiting for the moment, when I would not feel the fear. You are right. I guess it would be some kind of a mental disease not to be afraid of dangerous stuff.
Wow, I will work with this in the following days.
Thank you
Today W was friendly, but distant. Most of the times she tried to avoid my presence, sometimes she came to me and started a polite conversation (weather, the garden, the meat for the bbq). She seems to be quiet depressed about the situation. Her posture is the posture of a burdened person. No energy.
Emotional detachment takes more energy in this situation and I have to take care, that I spend my time with good nutrition and plenty of sleep, exercise and quality time with the kids. And I have to continue with my changes GAL!!, work on my self-worth, take responsibilities for the family and get a better paid job. That seems to be important. If I fall back into my old patterns, she would give up on me for good.
So keep your fingers crossed for me. It helps me to know, that somewhere out there are people who know about my journey. Thank you for your ideas, the encouragement. I really appreciate that.
I was afraid of my WAW's anger before and after BD.
It came from me feeling deep down like I was insufficient and inadequate, undeserving of love. During the M I used her love to combat those feelings and make me feel ok. Then when she got angry it hurt a bunch because I felt like she was in line with my worst fears and agreeing that I was a failure, that I wasn't deserving of love. Coming from the person who I loved this was both profoundly hurtful and a betrayal, or so it felt.
I still have trouble dealing with criticism, rejection, and anger. That's why these boards are tough at time. 2x4s, other people reacting violently to your thoughts at times. I really get put off by anger and resentment, it's very uncomfortable for me. I can accept disagreement, but for it to be accompanied by hostility is upsetting to me.
Part of my growth is working towards working on a team with all of my emotions, including anger, so I don't spend my life trying to avoid emotions, but rather accept them and rise above them. To do that I have to face a lot of uncomfortable situations, but it's well worth it. BECAUSE- if you NEED your WAW's approval to feel ok about yourself it will be hard to detach. Only with self healing and self care can you be ok on your own, and then detach from her opinions and behaviors.
I'm reading Daring Greatly by Brene Brown at the moment, and your comments of feeling insufficient, inadequate and undeserving of love resonated. Underdog recommended Brene Brown's TED talks on vulnerability and shame (thanks Underdog if you are reading this) and they are powerful.
I've just been reading about perfectionism as a mask for shame...unless I keep my 'perfect' mask in place, I may be found wanting...and so on..
Just mentioning in case her stuff is of interest. She has written 5 or 6 books...
T x
Thanks Toots. Very much in line with NMMNG as well.
I'm feeling more and more comfortable with who I am. Still struggling with how a future partner will be able to accept me.
When I play pool sometimes I can't even picture making the shot I need to shoot. If I can't make it in my head there's no way I'll make it in real life. Funny how you know you can't win even before you shoot the shot.
Same with M. Right now I can't picture a woman staying with me. It seems inevitable she will feel like she's settling, she's giving up her identity, she can't be happy as long as she's with me, and that she'd rather be free to have happiness in her future than to be stuck with me. All I can picture is her resentment and spew, her disrespect and contempt.
Clearly I still have a ways to go. But the biggest two things I'm looking for in my next woman would be commitment, and someone that can be accountable and manage through their resentment.
So for any women that feel they don't have much to offer, if you stood by your M through a bad marriage and you're not walking around with poisonous amounts of resentment towards your ex...you are quite the catch in my book. Not that you get there overnight...nothing wrong with going through the stages of grieving, as long as you just visit anger and don't live there forever.
The last 2 days I have started with my next 180 "make necessary decisions and behave as a father and head of the family".
Usually I would have negotiateed with W about who will talk to neighbours, who makes the phone call and so on. I would have been insecure and unreliable. This time I just took charge of the tasks and I guess she has noticed.
D14 is in deep emotional trouble. She is afraid of school, spends way to much time on the internet and had her "coming out" (with 14!?). She is all messed up inside. She is seeing a therapist since a few weeks and tomorrow there will be a parent-therapist meeting. She has always behaved older as she is, this is nothing new to us. But this time we are thinking about a stricter approach to take her out of this "I am an adult and the life of an adult is exhausting and I can not deal with it"-thinking. I have told W to wait for the meeting tomorrow and to make a decision in the next days, without procrastination. We will let her know, that there will be more boundaries and parents she can rely on, although she might not like it.
The last years, this family and M has been like a ship with a depressed and weak captain. It was difficult to rely on me and so W became desperate and saw the ship floating around without any clear direction. This needs to change and I am working on it.
Wow, that was awkward. We have just been to the meeting with the therapist of D14. She also asked about the marriage situation. At this point W discovered, that I am not going to move out asap. Her face went through different expressions: sadness, disappointment, anger and resignation. We have not spoken about it afterwards. But I guess she is shocked. Have you got any idea, how I could deal with this situation?
I have clarity over the fact, that I do not want the D at this moment. And I know, that I do not want to help her with the D. But it felt sad, that she has obviously totally different ideas about the future.
But I want to remain cool in this situation. So how should I communicate with her? No R talk? What about small talk? When we speak it is usually a bit awkward, because of the elephant in the room. What would you prefer? Silence or small talk? It is hard to sit beside her in the car, without talking to much.
I really need some thoughts from you about this.
So how should I communicate with her?
No R talk?
What about small talk?
When we speak it is usually a bit awkward, because of the elephant in the room.
What would you prefer?
Silence or small talk?
It is hard to sit beside her in the car, without talking to much.
I really need some thoughts from you about this.
Does she talk to you?
How do you know that she is upset?
Personally I think you speak with actions and not words.
There are NO words that are going to FIX her or make her
feel better.
If she wants to move out then that is her choice.
Does she talk to you?Yes. She tries polite conversations. She is not nagging or anything. Just normal stuff.
How do you know that she is upset?That is me mind-reading. Funnily enough I just gave someone else the advice not to pretend to be a mind-reader. There you have me...
Personally I think you speak with actions and not words.
There are NO words that are going to FIX her or make her
feel better.
If she wants to move out then that is her choice. [/quote]
So I just continue my 180, GAL and detachment, the 37 rules and do not interpret anything at all? Stay true to my goals and let her d if she wants to? Well, as I have said...to give advice is one thing. To use it on your own life is quiet another pair of shoes.
Yes. She tries polite conversations. She is not nagging or anything. Just normal stuff.
I personally would mirror this kind of talk.
Don't go completely dark until she has filed for divorce or is actively involved with someone else.
Let her initiate the conversations and then speak with as few words as possible(more with your actions) but mirror her.
Unless she is acting in some way that is not agreeable, then just walk away to another room.
I stick to my 180's. It is not always easy, but I am working on it. I have stopped procrastination and giving vague answers. I am behaving more like a captain, without pursuing W or ignoring her boundaries. And validation, validation and validation. I am working on the point "detachment", because this is one of my greatest problems.
No separation agreement, "clear-rules"-talk nor any threats nor ultimatum from W. yet. She is still polite-distant and none of us talks about their emotions or anything related to M.
I will focus on my changes and work on them.
Today W started a talk about the M. She told me again, that she wants the D. I told her politely, that this is not in my interests. This family and the 20 yrs together are important to me and that I am not at a point, where I would throw all this away. She said, that it would be a "good example" for the kids, to show them, that you can always start something new and you don not have to stay in a "terrible" situation. The kids would suffer, because of the atmosphere at home...but I know, that they do not.
Then she said, that she does not love me...and I told her, that love can develop out of respect and shared life experiences. Then she said it would not be the only point. She would be "afraid" of living together with me, because I would be unpredictable. When I asked her about a specific situation, she could not name one, but said, that she would not have to justify herself. And this is odd. If she had specific points, she would have mentioned them, to reinforce her decision. Btw., she values me as a person...but bla bla bla.
She will probably consult a lawyer, to get an idea, what to do next.
This conversation made me sad and confused.
Any ideas from your side?
My guts tell me, that an OM is somewhere and that she is looking for reasons to justify the D. Should I think about this sitch more or should I be less conversational the next time? Tough love? Any concrete ideas for upcoming conversations? Should I care about my guts? That I think she is not honest to me and just wants me to help her to end this M without a lot of trouble?
Am I too dumb to understand her POV? If she is not honest to me, I have no desire to talk to her again.
Has anyone an idea? My main question is: How to communicate, when W is always polite and friendly, but still clear with her approach? Is the rule still valid: Don't belive anything she says and only 50% of what you hear."? She seems to be so final with her decision.
Has anyone an idea?
My main question is: How to communicate, when W is always polite and friendly, but still clear with her approach? Is the rule still valid: Don't belive anything she says and only 50% of what you hear."?
She seems to be so final with her decision.
The quote is dont believe anything she says and 50% of what she does!
Another words believe her ACTIONS over her WORDS.
Yes I would say that to almost anyone.
I believe peoples Actions over their words and even more so when they are divorcing you and lying most all the time.
Maybe she is lying about being so nice.
Yes their decisions are final....until they change their mind.
They are working on emotion and their emotions can change.
Hi Koalada, it's common for people to be final with their decision. And of course the more we push, the more they feel the need to defend, and the more final it gets.
I would just keep your eyes and ears open in terms of possible OM, because the DB approach does change if there's an OP on the scene.
Certainly the rule is valid, but it's - don't believe anything she says and only 50% of what she does...
In terms of communication, I would respond briefly and pleasantly, but have your own plans and don't linger with her. And don't initiate R talks. If she has said she wants to D, you are in LRT I would say. Maybe go back and have a look at that content in the books...
W. is close to a nervous breakdown. She blames it on my presence in the house and she feels helpless, because I would make things more difficult as they had to be.
Tomorrow she is going to see a psychiatrist because of her emotional conditions.
She has been in a bad emotional state, before I have moved back. She has always been exhausted and depressed, nearly every time I have seen her. So it can not be only my presence, but she says so.
Her financial problems are also growing. She even had to ask me for extra money and I know that has not been easy for her.
Do you think it would be e necessary move for me to leave the house again? So that she does not get a nervous breakdown? I really do not want to push her over the cliff.
"Do you think it would be e necessary move for me to leave the house again? So that she does not get a nervous breakdown? I really do not want to push her over the cliff."
None of that is your fault. In fact, you actually gave her money. She is just looking at you as an excuse because she can't deal with the reality that it's really her that's the problem.
My guts tell me, that an OM is somewhere and that she is looking for reasons to justify the D. Should I think about this sitch more or should I be less conversational the next time?
You know Not to do the mind reading, but now you are asking us to interpret and mind read, for you. That's not helpful. You have mentioned in numerous places that you were not reliable in the marriage, that you could not make decisions on your own and were codependent, and that you were not the "captain of the ship" and the ship went in no direction.
Now, you seem to have decided that "there must be an OM somewhere".
uh, Maybe, but here are 2 comments.
1) It is very rare for a married woman with children, to leave a marriages - unless there are serious issues within the marriage; And
In your case you have already admitted that there were some big issues inside the marriage;
2) So why would you now spend your energy on what you do NOT know, when you can spend your energy on changing yourself?
There will be a few people here who insist you should snoop. DBing does NOT support that, but I won't say there is zero validity to it.
I just think you have a lot of work you can do that would put the focus on yourself, where it can do some real good, and you are all you can change.
IF you believe that an affair would absolutely end your marriage, then there Might be a reason to snoop but
if you are prepared to make the change anyhow, and an affair is not an absolute deal breaker,
why not keep the focus on where it will have the most/only effect; Yourself??
Sometimes there are LBSers who really start to dig deep and look within, and they begin the road toward overhauling the way they have been interacting, they start to become the people they were meant to become,
when suddenly they decide or discover that an affair is likely -- and then suddenly,
they decide they were great spouses! They have nothing to work on.
Gee, now It's ALL about the OM/OW and then, the growth and self improvement just comes to a screeching halt.
That's a tragedy. I realize it is easier to blame others for the problems that belong on our own shoulders; God knows it's a lot easier. But it's not likely to lead to a reconciliation and it prevents deep inward searches and growth. Those are some of the goals of DBing.
Put the focus back on you. Stop the mind reading, be polite and follow the "rules" (not so much rules as guidelines. If a few don't apply to your situation, then don't apply them. Use your common sense and then stick to the ones that you know help)
Tough love? Any concrete ideas for upcoming conversations?
Not sure what you mean by "tough love". You said you won't move out. So don't. No need for more WORDS. You said earlier that you talk too much.
Maybe that's true so maybe a noticeable change for your wife to see, would be for you to say Less, and Do more (or react Less).
Do you get that?
Should I care about my guts?
By this,^^ do you mean should you A:) Mind read; and then: B) Act based on your assumptions?
In my opinion, NO to both.
That I think she is not honest to me and just wants me to help her to end this M without a lot of trouble?
No, again for two reasons. You are confusing your FEARS with knowledge and they are not the same.
Second, even if your unproved fears are reality, that she "just wants" you to "help her end this marriage without a lot of trouble"
What would you do about that? Stomp and yell? Cry and plead? Bully her?
What effective difference would any of that make? Behave, always, with dignity and you will have far fewer regrets. Keep working on yourself and
Protect your legal interests and act with the calm confidence of a man who is doing what he beleves is right and who knows that sometimes, that knowledge is enough.
That others do NOT have to agree with him for him to stay the course. Be a man who does not take polls to guide his inner choices.
Am I too dumb to understand her POV? If she is not honest to me, I have no desire to talk to her again.
You may never know if she is being honest with you. But know this.
Her feelings may be confusing TO HER. And they will change, so what she says one day may be what she feels at that moment in time
but change the next day/week/month. And there will be times she is not sure, so she may say something only partly true OR she may want to protect your heart
or hurt you, and say something she knows that is not true in that moment.
But, don't we all have those moments? It's not like she's perjuring herself in court and swearing that the marriage was "always a lie".
You need to learn that we ALL have ambiguity in our lives (it's inherent in life) and in our marriages b/c our spouses can change, or die,l
and tomorrow is promised to no one. The key here is to learn to live with that ambiguity and maybe learn to embrace it.
When we operate in Fear, we are Not operating in Faith.
Ha! 25! There you are! I was just talking about you, how I learned to stay in my sandbox
I posted on another thread that the biggest threat to the LBS's growth is the WAS's behavior...because the WAS DOES act poorly enough that the LBS can justify get distracted from the only task at hand. THEMSELVES.
Marriage is dead forever. Can't control her behavior or her coming back. The circle you can and should focus on is right around YOU. Not to try to cling to controlling her. Just for you. No matter what she does. Eyes on you. Like climbing, don't look down! Hands on the rock. Task at hand. It's not easy, but nothing worth having is, and your growth and peace of mind is worth it.
Well, I am ashamed right now, because you are totally right and spot on.
I have read, that many problems start with the denial of responsibility, that leads to delusion (creating an alternative reality), and that leads to blame shifting. So here we are.
I became self righteous during the last days and lost track of my path. There are plenty of changes I have to do and already started with some. I am applying for full time jobs, take more responsibility for making decisions, try to follow your advice, go to IC for my problems. I do not say this to impress any one, but to remind myself of the fact, that there are plenty of things I have to deal with and CAN deal with.
But the nervous breakdown thing is very challenging for me, because I know how that feels and I do not want to cause stuff like that in anyone.
I will print out your replies and read them again in the upcoming days. Thank you!! I am so glad, that you folks exist. This help means a lot to me.
Today W asked again for my support to end this M. She said, that I could not ask her to stay in a relationship, she does not want to stay in. I have told her, that I respect her POV, but that she can not ask me, to help her to tear this family in two parts. I have to do, what I think is right and serves and protects the family. My opinion is as valid as hers.
I was clear and polite. She said, she was already working on a way to get two households, without me being part of the process. She would organize everything, but expects me not to put any stones in her way.
I do not want to take the responsibility for her decisions.
Btw. She wants to borrow my new car (a used one) for her study weekends. I am not sure what to do about this. She is talking about "our car". There would be an advantage to a shared car. In Germany you have to live separated for one year, before you can make a divorce final. As long as we are using the same stuff, eating out of one fridge and share stuff and responsibilities for the household, the separation year does not start.
Koalada,
I have not visited your thread in a while. I feel like I am missing something. Perhaps you or some of the other folks who are familiar with your sitch can shed light or bring me up to speed.
Is your W begging you for a D? How is it not in your best interests to D? Is it consistent with detaching and DB principles to refuse your Ws request for a D? Why do you want to be married to someone who is so hellbent on D? Are you not controlling your W by refusing to cooperate on the D? How does it help your R to keep her in the M against her will?
Will someone tell me whether I am way off base?
RAI
RAI
You raise a valid point but DBing is sort of about walking fine lines.
We don't want to "assist" in doing things we don't believe in BUT sure, there may come a point that its' a fruitless endeavor or worse, against our own interests.
And stubbornness is NOT the same as "standing" but the two can easily be confused.
I think there's a balance to be found somewhere
in between enabling/helping a decision to be implemented, which we do Not believe in -
and stubbornly insisting that a reality is false...
I am SO impressed with how you handled that conversation.
I agree with 25 about the fine line. There's a line between clinging and standing as well. For example, if your spouse is in an open A you have to put up good boundaries.
In my sitch I was the first to hire a L, I filed a legal separation 4-5 months in, and I spurred the D into action in month 9. This was about boundaries.
For every action, there was a reaction. Not to control or punish. But for me to adjust to the new reality. At some point I couldn't be there for 100% financial support. That was a boundary when she asked me to move out...I had to take care of myself because she wasn't looking out for me. When I found out there was OM I withdrew my friendship, I was not going to be emotionally supportive while she was having an affair. When she started acting deceptive in our D process I limited contact to L only or priority kid issues. Again, not emotional, and really not about her at all, just about me handling my sitch the way I felt a strong man should. And I had advice from a DB coach and IC each step of the way for guidance.
At this moment I believe it *MAY* make sense to file a legal separation. This is not a "ploy" to make her think you're moving on. But the danger with the idea of letting her take all the initiative is that you leave yourself open to being taken advantage of. And while $ isn't important in the greater context of M, being taken advantage of doesn't help your cause...it shows that you're needy, not worthy of respect, and actually can ENABLE her by protecting her from the consequences of her actions. You aren't here to punish, but you're not here to enable. She's made her decision. You have to respond the way you must respond.
So I'm not advising you to file separation, but I would advise you reconsider the mindset of hitting the brakes the whole way. The more you resist the more she will need to hit the gas. Push/pull dynamic.
I also think a year is a long time. I wouldn't worry about slowing that down. Besides...I hate to say it, but WAW don't care if they're legally D or not. She will do what she wants to do whether or not she is still legally M. If the legal M meant enough to keep her from dating, etc, she wouldn't be walking away in the first place.
Just a few thoughts. Again, really, really good steps. Keep posting and stay STRONG.
Dear friends,
I am always thankful for your replies, because it helps me to keep me on track in those difficult times. So I explain my sitch and maybe I am going into wrong directions?
I have no problems with the idea, to be divorced from W. If there were no kids involved, I would wave goodbye and start a new life. She is no longer the W I have been married to for nearly 20yrs. And I have been honest with her about that. I have told her, that I am not in love with her right now. And she said she can understand that.
Right now it is about this family. If she feels the need to tear this family into two pieces, than she should take ALL the responsibility for this move. I want to be able to tell my kids in the future, that I did not support the end of the family as they knew it.
Am I stubborn? I am thinking about your assumption, but it does not feel this way for me. I just do not want her to be able to say: "Your Dad agreed on the divorce. That is the way adults deal with it." I am convinced, that it is wrong to end this family without trying everything. I do not want to give her any support for an idea, that is against my conviction.
Another point is: She does not share anything about her life. She asks a lot of questions, is looking for informations from me "where have you applied?", "When could the new job start?", "Where are you going?" and so on. But she does not share anything about her life. Nothing. Just vague stuff. So I have no idea what she is thinking or doing right now. I do not trust her.
Well, those are my thoughts. Let me know, what you think about it. Maybe I am heading for the wrong direction.
Today she had an appointment with a psychiatrist. She told me that she prescribed an AD. She hopes to become more stable. She knows that I take an AD myself and she asked me about possible side effects.
I told her about my experience and encouraged her to make it through the possible side effects during the first weeks.
Dear friends,
I am always thankful for your replies, because it helps me to keep me on track in those difficult times. So I explain my sitch and maybe I am going into wrong directions?
I have no problems with the idea, to be divorced from W. If there were no kids involved, I would wave goodbye and start a new life. She is no longer the W I have been married to for nearly 20yrs. And I have been honest with her about that. I have told her, that I am not in love with her right now. And she said she can understand that.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person to say, you are saying way too much to her.
Those comments about how you are "not in love" with her, are said for what purpose?
What is the GOAL of those remarks? If you cannot clearly define the goal AND how your comments advance your position toward that goal, then stop making those remarks.
Right now it is about this family. If she feels the need to tear this family into two pieces, than she should take ALL the responsibility for this move.
First off, she does not believe SHE is "tearing the into two" pieces. You think that.
She clearly has been in a lot of pain and did not make this decision lightly or quickly, regardless of how it seems to you.
Secondly, Only a few days ago, you agreed that you played a significant role in how you two got here. You said you'd keep the focus on your own path and growth towards self improvement.
So you are revising things again, (just as she may be doing when she says it was "all or mostly all bad".)
And you are again into "assigning blame", which is not helpful. I must stress the importance of something my DB Coach told me, which was to "Lose the scorecard, because keeping score does Not ever help marriages"...ever.
I want to be able to tell my kids in the future, that I did not support the end of the family as they knew it.
You think they don't know that already? And to what end would your words be? Again you are trying to be declared "right", and to make your wife wrong.
My point here is not to make you wrong but to show you that your efforts are misdirected and fruitless. There is no such thing as being "the winner" in this. So stop assigning blame. Assigning blame does not help anyone and If anything, it just slows or prevents your growth and YOUR own happiness.
Am I stubborn? I am thinking about your assumption, but it does not feel this way for me. I just do not want her to be able to say: "Your Dad agreed on the divorce. That is the way adults deal with it."
1) hard to believe she'd say that; and 2) that they would believe it;
and 3) that it makes any difference what you say now.
My question for you is, what is your plan to prevent it? You have NO control over what she tells them.
You DO control how they see YOUR behavior, however. So why not focus on that?
I am convinced, that it is wrong to end this family without trying everything. I do not want to give her any support for an idea, that is against my conviction.
Yes, we know that and you know that and she knows that. What's the point of belaboring this? You need to see a lawyer to know your rights and figure out a game plan for the LEGAL side of this.
And you need to keep your own path of self improvement going.
We know this isn't easy. It's darn difficult. But in a lot of ways, it's also not that complicated.
Back to YOU...
Another point is: She does not share anything about her life.
So you can share less of yours. You cannot control what she says or discloses. Just what you share and disclose.
Again I say, BACK TO YOU...
-- Nothing. Just vague stuff. So I have no idea what she is thinking or doing right now. I do not trust her.
No one said to trust her. But what is it you must "know"? Why so much focus on HER and HER Plans and thoughts?? Sense a pattern? You keep steering off of your own path and onto hers. Get out of her sandbox.
Stay in your sandbox and do YOUR work.
She says she wants a divorce. That's pretty much the only thing you need to know from her, along with the legal information that only seeing a lawyer for yourself, can provide.
Well, those are my thoughts. Let me know, what you think about it. Maybe I am heading for the wrong direction.
Hello koalada,
I am so sorry to hear about all the trouble you are dealing with. It is gut-wrenching, I know. In my honest opinion, it seemed like you were moving in the right direction, but it seems like now you're taking a step or two back. We all stumble, boy I know I sure do!
Please read 25's comments, questions to you and advice in the last post. 25 is right on.
I wish you well. You CAN get through this.
Bob
25yearsmic, I thank you for being honest with me.
I do not want to give her the impression, that I am not interested in her stuff. If I am too short with words, she might think, that I am cold or rude or bitchy.
Yes, you are right! I have lost the path again. In moments like this, I get the impression, that I am just not able to make it. I had some good days and I have thought, that she became a bit warmer and BANG she tells me again ILYBINILWY. I pick up myself and try to be unimpressed, work on my stuff and I get the impression, that she is less distant and BANG, she tells me, she is still planning the D. I am hopeless right now.
Part of our marriage problems was, that I was emotionally distant for a long time. If I am distant right now, she might think that I am back into old patterns. "Yeah, I know this look on his face. He is not interested in that what moves me."
She feels bad. She has told me about her doubts regarding her ability to ever work again. She told me, that she thinks she is gullible. Today she told me, that she has been desperate for hours, that she would be overwhelmed by life. (This has been the first time in month, that she has spoken that open about her emotions, without talking about R). I feel selfish, if I do not take care of her emotional situation, if I do not support and encourage her.
I am really confused and messed up. So I go back to the book and your posts and start again. Yes, I still try to please her and to impress her and to manipulate her. Most of the stuff I do is for her and not for me. So back to start.
Today I have been to IC. She said, that it is important for me to become stable as a person, to find the stuff inside, that is independent of others. I have some homework assignement to do during the next weeks. It sounds selfish, but she said, that right now it is just about the things that I can do for myself. Treat myself good, get to know myself better, find out what I want and don't want, what I expect from life.
We have also spoken about some dynamics in the marriage, that have caused problems. And she said, that I should stop blameshifting. It would be fruitless. But she did not gave much room to the marriage-talk. Most of the time it has been about detachment.
It has been a great day.
W. still planning the separation. She tries to figure out a way to get out of the contract with the landlord. I've noticed that she's grabbed our lease, scanned it and sent it somewhere.
Again she is polite but distant. She is asking a lot of questions regarding my applications. But she shares nothing about her thoughts.
"what was inside your mail today? "," what happens with application for X?"
I will try to accept the idea that this marriage is finished and let go. Take care of the kids and myself. But this is a painful thought for me.
Should I start working with her on the details of the separation? I still think it is wrong to divorce yet, but w seems to be so committed that I actually see no way, that this story will get a happy ending. In about four weeks is our 20th anniversary.
Keep fighting. Don't give up until she's gone. Don't tell her you don't love her. You can feel that somewhere deep down it's in her to love back, something is stopping the process right now.
I understand that you are feeling terrible right now. Me same. I want the earth to stop and let me get off, just for a breather. Keep with it pal!
I have started to read all the posts from the beginning and one question is important for me.
Yes, she bought new underwear at some point, yes she has lost weight, yes, she has told me that she fell in love with someone she has never met (and there would have been no contact since than).
During the everyday life I can see no proof for an affair. S10 sleeps often in her room, she does not do a lot of texting during the day or has "mysterious" appointments or meetings and so on.
I know, that I have been a crappy husband for years, so I could understand if she would want to leave.
Is she a WAW because she might have been just fed up with the M or is she WW because she once (I do not know about this EA still going on) fell in love?
Hey K,
First,
please realize that we know this isn't easy and it can get confusing, until if & when you have a fairly clear (but always flexible) Game Plan.
At this point, you still lack one. I HIGHLY recommend you hire a DB coach, for clarity if nothing else.
Okay now, a few things I noticed herein...
25yearsmic, I thank you for being honest with me.
I do not want to give her the impression, that I am not interested in her stuff. If I am too short with words, she might think, that I am cold or rude or bitchy.
This is mostly about HER PERCEPTION of you, which is about her and Not you. Let's get back to You...b/c once again, you are all you control.
Simply be authentically interested to the point you can safely be interested in the mother of your children WITHOUT attaching any expectations therefrom
I said ^^ "simply be...", not b/c it's easy - but b'c it's Not always that complex.
In this post are some examples of you NOT being detached from her or the outcome of interactions with her, which is key to Detachment.
(SO is GAL and I need to hear a whole lot more about your GAL, btw, and a lot less about her perceptions or words or feelings OR your perceptions of those...)
Yes, you are right! I have lost the path again. In moments like this,
I get the impression, that I am just not able to make it.
Been there^^, done that. I told my sisters there was a "90% chance h & I would be divorced" by the summer's end. My feelings changed. So will yours and so will your w's. Nothing Is written in stone.
I had some good days and I have thought, that she became a bit warmer and BANG she tells me again ILYBINILWY.
Do Not monitor for results so often or so soon! (And Do Not take the temperature of the R, even if you are only doing so internally--Not helpful to you)
Your patience level must increase 10 fold...literally. Just be the best YOU that you can be, and let the cards fall where they will.
STOP looking over your shoulder to see if she noticed OR if she might be "warmer" or looking at you differently. OR wanting to throw in the towel b/c last week she made eye contact and this week she said she is angry at you...
get off the roller coaster.
Aside from the reality that she's probably on to you doing all that monitoring (and it's SO much more noticeable than you realize),
and aside from how needy it looks,
it also makes ANY changes you are demonstrating, Look Fake
(as if they are "tactics" just to get her back) so that IF you two reconcile,
you will of course revert to your old ways - b/c your "changes" are Not real or permanent.
Do you get what I'm saying? In other words, you're hurting your cause with all this monitoring and getting so frutrqtied with HER reactions to changes you are supposedly making -
b/c
IF YOUR CHANGES WERE AUTHENTIC,
(& YOU DID THEM TO IMPROVE YOURSELF & TO PLEASE YOURSELF) -
YOU WOULD NOT NOTICE OR CARE WHAT HER REACTION WAS.... never mind whether she is "warmer" or
SAYS ILYBINILWY
b/c you're not supposed to listen to ANYTHING she says and only half of what she does.
I know you have heard all these^^ "mantras" before.
Start applying them to yourself.
I pick up myself and try to be unimpressed, work on my stuff and I get the impression, that she is less distant and BANG, she tells me, she is still planning the D. I am hopeless right now.
Part of our marriage problems was, that I was emotionally distant for a long time.
If I am distant right now, she might think that I am back into old patterns. "Yeah, I know this look on his face. He is not interested in that what moves me."
I understand. So you have to handle being detached differently.
The "rules" are merely guidelines that are meant as GUIDES. When Sandi wrote them she mentions that some won't apply and no one needs all of them.
If your issue was not being connected with her at a deep level (not listening to her) and lacking empathy or she felt that you lacked it there are things you can do and should do regardless of the marriage.
ALL people want to feel heard and validated. So LISTEN to her.
Re-cap what she tells you so you know you got it right. "W, let me see if I got this right, you're saying the children hate the basketball coach BUT They love the team -- so they only want to play on the team he's NOT coaching, correct? I don't know how that affects driving them to practice, etc. How do YOU feel about that?"
(That ^^one is fairly easy yet you'd be surprised how many people do NOT re-cap b/c they think their time is so important that they cannot verify what their spouse said, let alone show they care about it.)
When she speaks to you, LOOK at her and don't be distracted
By example, ---IF your wife were to look you in the eye and tell you that she is "in love" with you, you would probably be very moved.
What if she told you she is "in love" with you, while she's looking at her watch??
See the difference? Same words very different meanings. LISTEN ACTIVELY
ALSO AND THIS IS KEY
IF she revises an event and makes it all your fault, if that is AT ALL accurate
(like if you really did drop the ball & cause some of her pain)
THEN YOU SAY
"W, I remember that & I'm sorry I hurt you. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." Say this sincerely.
IF SHE revises an incident way out of proportion or you truly really do NOT recall it at all
do Not argue with you (you won't win, you'll just confirm her reasons for leaving)
you say
"Wow I sure don't recall it that way, BUT I'm sorry you were hurt. If I could do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently.""
This ^^ response does Not escalate; it does NOT lead to another argument and in fact it usually diffuses a situation (so use it that way)
it's honest, AND it shows that you would like to change some things - which is a change in itself. It's Not the time for you to say "and YOU have to change too"...you say nothing about HER; just you.
And it's not a doormat answer either. I'd memorize it if I were you.
FTR, there was an event I simply had NO recall of and I kind of thought h was going nuts.
In fact I was so mad that I almost called him a liar to his face, but right before I did, as I muttered about it, my d9 heard me.
She piped in that SHE recalled the event, and had details that finally jogged my memory (maybe I blocked it out??)
but man, our recall of a lot of these incidents is NOT that great - so we cannot always assume our WAS is nuts.
Just saying...
She feels bad. She has told me about her doubts regarding her ability to ever work again. She told me, that she thinks she is gullible. Today she told me, that she has been desperate for hours, that she would be overwhelmed by life. (This has been the f
irst time in month, that she has spoken that open about her emotions, without talking about R).
This^^ is valuable Data!! Keep gathering it like you are a spy getting "intel" on a recon mission.
I wish you'd hire a DB coach (what are you exactly waiting for, just so I know)? They'd tell you how important it is to listen for clues.
Mine was a Godsend!
She saId when h was sharing about himself or his work or anything NOT related to our marriage
that I should "Listen like a Lover" and validate and actively listen,
and Do Not judge, do not advise or 'Fix" (men in particular do this a lot, and often the woman wants to be HEARD and NOT repaired).
When a man makes a suggestion to a woman about a painful problem, SOMETIMES it comes off as if the man thinks he's fixed it now, so why is she STILL talking about it?
"Why is she whining now? I TOLD HER she could quit the job"...(never mind that they need the money or she loves the people or the job or loves the prestige, )
when a man makes a 2 sentence suggestion to an emotional problem his woman has,
to most women, it does NOT feel as if he is showing he cares.
The priority is her airing her feelings to someone who is listening and cares. 9/10 of the time she'll solve it herself after being heard.
So LISTEN to her and do not fix it - and do not make it about you.
Make sense?
Obviously if she asks you for something, that is different. If it involves the kids or her safety, do it without hemming and hawing.
Otherwise just run it by here and we can give feedback if you want.
I feel selfish, if I do not take care of her emotional situation, if I do not support and encourage her.
I am really confused and messed up. So I go back to the book and your posts and start again.
Yes, I still try to please her and to impress her and to manipulate her. Most of the stuff I do is for her and not for me.
Read those 2 highlighted sentences and think about them.
I try to please her...to impress her...to MANIPULATE HER...
for her and not for me...
[u][/u]
Koala, it's really all about you wanting to manipulate the outcome of this,
and while that is true of most DBers, to an extent
your mistake is the constant deflection from simply wanting to be the best man you can and ought to be
for the sake of self actualization (meaning, for the sake of being your best)
without regard to the path your wife is on.
Period.
Paradoxically that detachment from the results,
i.e. the leaving it in God's hands, (or the universe's or whatever you call it)
happens to be the most likely way of re-attracting your spouse back to you.
When I truly GAL & finally could Detach
I did not care nearly as much about what my h was doing or thinking or feeling
b/c my life was about ME and my children, being content (and I was more content and continue to be)
and so, when he had his awakening and wanted back into the family, I was hesitant.
So Stop challenging her choices and she might stop defending them so much; she might even begin to look at them.
But your task is Not about her or what she does.
Can you tell us what YOU wish to work on in your life starting NOW?
Time to Get back on your path.
First,
please realize that we know this isn't easy and it can get confusing, until if & when you have a fairly clear (but always flexible) Game Plan.
At this point, you still lack one. I HIGHLY recommend you hire a DB coach, for clarity if nothing else.
I do not have a real plan. I am on a tight budget and just can not afford the DB coach. I'd love to, but it is just not possible.
I do not want to give her the impression, that I am not interested in her stuff. If I am too short with words, she might think, that I am cold or rude or bitchy.
This is mostly about HER PERCEPTION of you, which is about her and Not you.
I said ^^ "simply be...", not b/c it's easy - but b'c it's Not always that complex.
In this post are some examples of you NOT being detached from her or the outcome of interactions with her, which is key to Detachment.
[color:#009900]On one hand I should be aware of "important informations" and on the other hand I should not bother about her moods. How can I know what is important and what not? I am confused about that. I never know what she is doing next. I always expect some weird "move". How can I become peaceful and confident, while there could happen anything?
(SO is GAL and I need to hear a whole lot more about your GAL, btw, and a lot less about her perceptions or words or feelings OR your perceptions of those...)
My GAL so far:
Counselling
Once a week I go to the movies
Started songwriting again
Started playing guitar again
Reading selfhelp books
Sit in Cafes, while reading
Try to get more contact to old friends and relatives
New haircut
Wear nice clothes and bought new after-shave
Beekeeping – course (honey harvest soon)
My 180's
Do not interupt her
Do not finish her sentences
Make decisions
Don't do the whole job of the divorce (just move out, sign any paper she gives me, give her as much money as I can). That would have been me, following my old patterns.
Be firm as a father
Apply for a fulltime position
Do not accept disrespect (man up)
Do Not monitor for results so often or so soon! (And Do Not take the temperature of the R, even if you are only doing so internally--Not helpful to you)
Your patience level must increase 10 fold...literally. Just be the best YOU that you can be, and let the cards fall where they will.
STOP looking over your shoulder to see if she noticed OR if she might be "warmer" or looking at you differently. OR wanting to throw in the towel b/c last week she made eye contact and this week she said she is angry at you...
get off the roller coaster.
Regarding detachment: I have difficulties to imagine detachment "in action". I have the impression, that I am running out of time. Do I really need to let this marriage go, in order to (probably) save it?
So far part I.
Aside from the reality that she's probably on to you doing all that monitoring (and it's SO much more noticeable than you realize),
and aside from how needy it looks,
it also makes ANY changes you are demonstrating, Look Fake
(as if they are "tactics" just to get her back) so that IF you two reconcile,
you will of course revert to your old ways - b/c your "changes" are Not real or permanent.
Do you get what I'm saying? In other words, you're hurting your cause with all this monitoring and getting so frutrqtied with HER reactions to changes you are supposedly making -
b/c
IF YOUR CHANGES WERE AUTHENTIC,
(& YOU DID THEM TO IMPROVE YOURSELF & TO PLEASE YOURSELF) -
YOU WOULD NOT NOTICE OR CARE WHAT HER REACTION WAS.... never mind whether she is "warmer" or
SAYS ILYBINILWY
b/c you're not supposed to listen to ANYTHING she says and only half of what she does.
I know you have heard all these^^ "mantras" before.
Start applying them to yourself.
I am conflicted with looking for "sign posts" and "let her do whatever she wants to do" AND change my own life for myself. It feels like emotional plate spinning.
MWD is talking about "sign posts", that I have to look for. Btw. I have goals. I have just forgot them.
*I want to celebrate our 21st anniversarry as couple.
*Me and W are talking about "saving the M"
*We start a therapy with the goal of becoming strong as a couple.
*W puts the D-plans on hold
The sign posts I am looking for:
*She would look out for opportunities to spend time with me.
*She would talk about herself without talking about R
*She would call or send a text, just to say Hello
*She would question her decision
*She would ask about my life without searching for traces, that help her case.
*She would mention differences, that she might have noticed.
*She would not avoid me.
All those signals were more clear, when I have lived apart from her. From time to time I still see those small changes, but her mood changes everyday.
What do you think about the goals and the sign posts?
And should I ignore everything else she says and does?
Can you understand my confusion?
I understand. So you have to handle being detached differently.
The "rules" are merely guidelines that are meant as GUIDES. When Sandi wrote them she mentions that some won't apply and no one needs all of them.
If your issue was not being connected with her at a deep level (not listening to her) and lacking empathy or she felt that you lacked it there are things you can do and should do regardless of the marriage.
ALL people want to feel heard and validated. So LISTEN to her.
Re-cap what she tells you so you know you got it right. "W, let me see if I got this right, you're saying the children hate the basketball coach BUT They love the team -- so they only want to play on the team he's NOT coaching, correct? I don't know how that affects driving them to practice, etc. How do YOU feel about that?"
(That ^^one is fairly easy yet you'd be surprised how many people do NOT re-cap b/c they think their time is so important that they cannot verify what their spouse said, let alone show they care about it.)
When she speaks to you, LOOK at her and don't be distracted
By example, ---IF your wife were to look you in the eye and tell you that she is "in love" with you, you would probably be very moved.
What if she told you she is "in love" with you, while she's looking at her watch??
See the difference? Same words very different meanings. LISTEN ACTIVELY
ALSO AND THIS IS KEY
IF she revises an event and makes it all your fault, if that is AT ALL accurate
(like if you really did drop the ball & cause some of her pain)
THEN YOU SAY
"W, I remember that & I'm sorry I hurt you. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." Say this sincerely.
IF SHE revises an incident way out of proportion or you truly really do NOT recall it at all
do Not argue with you (you won't win, you'll just confirm her reasons for leaving)
you say
"Wow I sure don't recall it that way, BUT I'm sorry you were hurt. If I could do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently.""
This ^^ response does Not escalate; it does NOT lead to another argument and in fact it usually diffuses a situation (so use it that way)
it's honest, AND it shows that you would like to change some things - which is a change in itself. It's Not the time for you to say "and YOU have to change too"...you say nothing about HER; just you.
And it's not a doormat answer either. I'd memorize it if I were you.
FTR, there was an event I simply had NO recall of and I kind of thought h was going nuts.
In fact I was so mad that I almost called him a liar to his face, but right before I did, as I muttered about it, my d9 heard me.
She piped in that SHE recalled the event, and had details that finally jogged my memory (maybe I blocked it out??)
but man, our recall of a lot of these incidents is NOT that great - so we cannot always assume our WAS is nuts.
Just saying...
This^^ is valuable Data!! Keep gathering it like you are a spy getting "intel" on a recon mission.
I wish you'd hire a DB coach (what are you exactly waiting for, just so I know)? They'd tell you how important it is to listen for clues.
Mine was a Godsend!
She saId when h was sharing about himself or his work or anything NOT related to our marriage
that I should "Listen like a Lover" and validate and actively listen,
and Do Not judge, do not advise or 'Fix" (men in particular do this a lot, and often the woman wants to be HEARD and NOT repaired).
When a man makes a suggestion to a woman about a painful problem, SOMETIMES it comes off as if the man thinks he's fixed it now, so why is she STILL talking about it?
"Why is she whining now? I TOLD HER she could quit the job"...(never mind that they need the money or she loves the people or the job or loves the prestige, )
when a man makes a 2 sentence suggestion to an emotional problem his woman has,
to most women, it does NOT feel as if he is showing he cares.
The priority is her airing her feelings to someone who is listening and cares. 9/10 of the time she'll solve it herself after being heard.
So LISTEN to her and do not fix it - and do not make it about you.
Make sense?
Iam definitly guilty of this one. I am the one who thinks "do this and that and voila...problem solved". Because I have felt respnsible for offering solutions, not joining a "coffee klatsch" (do you have this phrase in your country?). It is painful for me, to sit and listen, without offering "mature advice". At my job, I can do this and I am usually good with detaching. With my W it is different.
And regarding the DB-Coach...I can not afford it yet.Obviously if she asks you for something, that is different. If it involves the kids or her safety, do it without hemming and hawing.
.
Can you explain the "hemming and hawing" to me? Does it mean "immediatly", without waiting?
Otherwise just run it by here and we can give feedback if you want.
...you wanting to manipulate the outcome of this,
and while that is true of most DBers, to an extent
your mistake is the constant deflection from simply wanting to be the best man you can and ought to be
for the sake of self actualization (meaning, for the sake of being your best)
without regard to the path your wife is on.
Period.
It feels strange to work on myself in a situation, while my M is on the brink of divorce. It feels like driving by a car accident, but as a reaction I just turn on the radio and drive on. Looking for a nice way to spend the evening.
Paradoxically that detachment from the results,
i.e. the leaving it in God's hands, (or the universe's or whatever you call it)
happens to be the most likely way of re-attracting your spouse back to you.
When I truly GAL & finally could Detach
I did not care nearly as much about what my h was doing or thinking or feeling
b/c my life was about ME and my children, being content (and I was more content and continue to be)
and so, when he had his awakening and wanted back into the family, I was hesitant.
So Stop challenging her choices and she might stop defending them so much; she might even begin to look at them.
But your task is Not about her or what she does.
Can you tell us what YOU wish to work on in your life starting NOW?
Time to Get back on your path.
So far part II of my reply. It might sound a bit messy. It is quiet likely that I do not get the point of some posts, because of the process of translation and it is even more likely that I do not get the point of some posts, because I am a stubborn guy, who wants the world to massage his ego.
Koalada,
I'll quote you and then see if my comments can illuminate things more. I do understand the translation aspects of all this and of course there are typos to deal with as well.
Here we go. You said:
I am conflicted with looking for "sign posts" and "let her do whatever she wants to do" AND change my own life for myself. It feels like emotional plate spinning.
MWD is talking about "sign posts", that I have to look for. Btw. I have goals. I have just forgot them.
*I want to celebrate our 21st anniversarry as couple.
*Me and W are talking about "saving the M"
*We start a therapy with the goal of becoming strong as a couple.
*W puts the D-plans on hold
The sign posts I am looking for:
*She would look out for opportunities to spend time with me.
*She would talk about herself without talking about R
*She would call or send a text, just to say Hello
*She would question her decision
*She would ask about my life without searching for traces, that help her case.
*She would mention differences, that she might have noticed.
*She would not avoid me.
All those signals were more clear, when I have lived apart from her. From time to time I still see those small changes, but her mood changes everyday.
What do you think about the goals and the sign posts?
And should I ignore everything else she says and does?
Can you understand my confusion?
I think your confusion stems from the chronic focus on your wife, and not on yourself.
Instead of having personal goals YOU can try to achieve up^^ there, you only have goals that involve action or emotion on HER part. And since you have zero control over her, the list involves nothing you can do.
That belief is false and has to change. There are things you can do on your own.
Otherwise it's almost as if you are choosing to be helpless b/c only if SHE does/says something, then what?
To me, that ^^ list mostly looks like a list of ways your wife will/can save you.
It's time to take charge of your life and your own happiness, don't you think?
Also SIGN POSTS and Personal Goals are Not the same.
Sign posts are things you'd monitor for, AFTER you have made the improvements in yourself and the changes and 180s (i.e. your personal goals) have had a chance to make an impression.
The phrase that comes to mind is that you are "putting the cart before the horse". Another way of saying this is that
You are putting things out of order.
Make Koalada the best man he can become and THEN, down the road, look for some of the sign posts you wish to find.
Make sense?
Let's try this another way.
You wrote:
I am conflicted with looking for "sign posts" and "let her do whatever she wants to do" AND change my own life for myself. It feels like emotional plate spinning.
First, what's with "Let her do"? Koalada, She CAN and WILL DO whatever she wants.
You never had control over that and you still do not.
So spend NO energy on "whether" you should b/c you cannot. Period. Okay?
MWD is talking about "sign posts", that I have to look for. Btw. I have goals. I have just forgot them.
So you forgot your goals? Well that's interesting b/c it relates to your happiness. Let's make that a priority and you Start remembering or recreating your goals, b/c it's very important you set goals. VERY IMPORTANT.
Again, SIGN POSTS usually come after the changes and goals get achieved, by you and only you.
Here's an example of what I mean when I say to set a personal, achievable goal:
1) I will get in shape & feel/look better BY walking/running 2 miles a day, 4+ times a week.
2) I will work do work towards a promotion at my job - BY staying late on Wednesdays and doing extra work on Mondays...
Notice that in terms of my personal goals, the only person who can achieve them is ME.
I might not get the promotion at work BUT I Can stay late, do extra and at least know I have improved my work performance.
There's nothing in those^^ 2 goals that my spouse would need to do.
Hypothetically, later on,
I might list as a signpost, that "H compliments my improved appearance".
Does this help clarify anything for you?
*I want to celebrate our 21st anniversarry as couple.
*Me and W are talking about "saving the M"
*We start a therapy with the goal of becoming strong as a couple.
These ^^ are all things you can hope for or set as signs of "piecing" the marriage back,
AFTER you have made the changes in yourself that you need/want to make.
They are down the road from now.
*W puts the D-plans on hold
This is a marital goal - not a personal one-- and while it's fine as a marital goal, (and also a "signpost" actually), here, it's not related to any 180 or change in you.
But obviously if she did this (delaying or reversing the Divorce filing) then you'd know you had made a lot of progress.
It's just that you are not doing anything to make it more likely by all this analysis.
Another idiom we have is "Paralysis by analysis".
Think about that^^ one okay?
The sign posts I am looking for:
Almost all of the signposts below are far far down the road from here and
they are ALL ABOUT HER,
which is truly missing the point at this stage of things.
*She would look out for opportunities to spend time with me.
*She would talk about herself without talking about R
*She would call or send a text, just to say Hello
*She would question her decision
*She would ask about my life without searching for traces, that help her case.
*She would mention differences, that she might have noticed.
*She would not avoid me.
IN TIME,
you can hope and look for ^^^ these to happen but it's not as if staring at her will make them more likely.
You will KNOW if she texts you just to say hello, or looks for an opportunity to spend time with you. You'll know.
No point in waiting for those to happen.
So, Back to YOU and YOUR WORK on Yourself...
All those signals were more clear, when I have lived apart from her.
From time to time I still see those small changes,but her mood changes everyday.
Why are you looking for changes in HER and not in yourself? What are the traits you wish to change in YOURSELF and let's go from there, alright?
Otherwise you'll spend your life waiting and hoping your wife will do or feel something for you,
rather than walking a path that others would enjoy sharing with you.
What do you think about the goals and the sign posts?
And should I ignore everything else she says and does?
Hard to explain why some things are more important than others. Sometimes it's just obvious.
One way to protect ourselves from being on an emotional roller coaster with our walk away spouses (is to get off) and
is to pay no attention to their spewing venom words (crazy mean talk, for example), should be ignored.
If she berates you or speaks with disrespect and or a bad temper, in the same area as you, you walk away.
If it happens on the phone - you tell her you will talk with her when there is less emotion, and THEN you get off the phone, always always being CALM...
BTW - the person who loses their temper in an argument - is the person with less power.
The person in control over themselves, even when angry, is the one with the power to control themselves. They are the stronger of the two.
It is true that you might decide you don't ever want to reconcile with someone who acts that way -
but you cannot react to every nasty comment and you should not. Same goes for her moods.
IF SHE is reacting to something you did or said, take that information in so you can see if a "signpost" might be around.
But don't get beaten down by every little word or look from her.
By making yourself a more self confident, inwardly content man,
her words will roll off your back and perhaps in time make you a lot more attractive to her.
And this self confidence and inward contentment is all within your control to achieve.
Regardless of HER reaction to a more contented you, YOU will be more content & that is a wonderful gift you can give yourself for you.
PS
Your GAL needs to involve meeting and interacting with A LOT MORE PEOPLE and not so many solo activities.
There are lots of reasons for this, but for now, please think about it.
Especially meeting new people, helps us obsess Less about our spouses or our situations, and helps us be happier, a lot faster.
I don't believe anyone can detach without GAL- especially having new and more people in our lives other than our walk away spouses.
Put another way,
GAL + Time = Detachment
and
Consistent change (in us) + sufficient time = change the WAS can believe in.
You need to make those changes, be consistent with them and give it TIME.
You must GAL with others, and give that time and Detachment will come.
You won't be on the roller coaster anymore.
And no, detachment does Not = giving up.
But you must Detach before you can really move forward in your life.
Wow!
!
!
!
Thank you so much for your reply. I do not have time to answer immediately, but be sure that your words are a gift to my situation.
Before BD, I was working on an optimal body weight and on a "six pack". I had already lost 25 pounds. I have been really committed for eight month. Then I went into "panic-mode" and stopped going after this goal. So what about the following goals?
*I get my optimal body weight (about 10 pounds left)
*I get the first "six pack" of my life
*I get a full-time position till September
*I meet every second week with a friend and play guitar with him
*Once a week I go to a lecture or a concert or an exhibition (there are plenty of them in our region. "architecture of the post-war time", "the basics of gardening", "medieval songs"...and so on).
*Spend a good time with every child, everyday.
*See at least 2 movies every month.
*Swimming twice a month
*Post at least 3 songs on "soundcloud" every month.
*Phone my sisters once a week
*Say "yes" to the invitation of my sister and spend a weekend with them. She and her husband are living in a wonderful area with vineyards (Moselle).
*Struggle, get up and go back to my goals.
I also gave up meditation and think about going back to this habit.
Yesterday I did my "six-pack" exercises again. My weight loss app is alive again. I went to a lecture about body cells and tonight a friend comes to play guitar. And I have received an invitation for a job interview.
The meeting with the friend had been planned since last week.
I have also cancelled the phone and cable TV contract. If this ends in a separation, I have two contracts less to worry about.
Day 3 after coming back to my goals. I use the weight loss app, do my six pack exercises and met a friend yesterday. We have played guitars for two hours and had a good time.
Great work, Ko. Way to turn it around. Now you truly are working on yourself. Congrats. I am working on my own transformation.
RAI
Great job Koalada!
Congrats on the momentum you're building up!
Hello,
the situation right now:
Since I set boundaries to D14, D14 became cold and bit**y. Before that we have been "best friends". That is pretty painful. She has always been my "little princess". Anyone any parenting advice for 14 yr old girls? It feels like I am only being loved, as long as I play along with her plans. Now she is "best friend" with W.
I continue to GAL, W. is friendly, but a bit distant. We have polite conversations about this or that, but no R or D talk.
Today W. spoke about her dissapointment about the job market. She applied for some jobs, but is still afraid, she might not be able to work again. I just listened and validated her emotions. Since then she became a bit warmer (a tiiiiiiiny bit).
After this conversation, I discovered inside myself this voice: "Do you want to live with this woman again? Do you really want to do it? You could make it on your own and start with a new life. Will I ever trust her again or will there always be the nagging doubt, that she might quit again?" Have some of you experienced moments like this?
S10 and I went to an exhibition and had some ice cream. It has been a good day so far.
Today I have tasted the first honey from my bees. It is going to be a great harvest this year.
For 9 days in a row, I have done my sixpack excercises and took care of my meals. Everyday I do something for myself and try to spend time with other people. No R-talk from my side or her side.
Friday I have a job interview for a fulltime position.
On Monday I have spinned the first honey. Beside that, I stick to my plan.
D14 is still in an emotional mess and since Tuesday she is in a psychiatric clinic for children, to get checked. She is full of fears and sadness, not able to go to school.
W told me yesterday, that she wants a conversation about R.. I have told her, that this is not a good moment to cause even more trouble for the family and that we should wait with the conversation till we get a first diagnosis for D14. I have no idea, what she wants to talk about. The last days she is chatty and friendly.
Dear DBs, I really need your advice.
R-talk this morning:
W is confused and spoke openly about her emotions. She has signed a contract for a flat (1st of August) and has lend money from a bank. She said, that she is afraid of the next steps and that she feels overwhelmed with the task of ending this marriage. She felt left alone with this task.
She said, that she is not sure, what is the best way. She could not even think about the relationship and is afraid, that I could hurt her again. She is not sure, if she can trust me again. Her emotions were sore and she is not sure, that we are good for each other. She could understand my wish of keeping this family together and admitted, that it might have been a mistake to sign the lease.
She has no idea, how to get into a new job and she is afraid, that she might need to work full-time after a divorce. She wants to be there for the kids as good as possible.
She did not mention a separation or divorce. She would know nothing right now and could not decide what would be right or wrong.
I was friendly and validated her emotions and thanked her for being open with me. She is under a lot of pressure.
Right now I am full of mixed emotions. I am annoyed about the idea, that it should have been only me, who has caused all the trouble. I have felt good about myself during the last week and don't want to beat up myself for the bad things that have happened. I am working on my changes and stick to them and I am sorry for all her pain, but what else can I do? And I do not agree on her emotion, that the entire 20 yrs might have been a long and dark hell.
I am a bit tired of dealing with the situation. She said, that she needs a couple of days to think about it all and I have told her the same.
If I would leave, none of her problems would be solved. She would still be in a financial mess, she would still need to find a job, she would still discover, that there are painful situations in any relationship.
I really want to keep this family together, but my pride tells me, that I could make it without her and that I do not want to be "the problem" of the marriage. Right now, that is what she feels and I have to accept it, but her picture of the 20 yrs is very dark and I am angry, that she does not mention the many, many good times in all those yrs.
What do you think about this conversation and what could be the next step? I can not promise her, that she might never get hurt by me again. That would be unrealistic.
Please share your ideas with me.
Yesterday, while waling, W took my hand for half a minute. Our first physical contact. After that we did not speak about it.
We laughed together during the last days and she is still friendly and chatty. Are things turning into a good direction? Are there any dangers waiting ahead? I guess I can do a lot of false things at the moment.
Those seem like very good signs. You are still very early in the separation and she's likely to be all over the place. Stay friendly and give her time and space to figure it out.