I'm tired...too tired to come up with a good song/thread title. (Oh wait, apparently it
is a song).
Last thread:
Susana (8) - You can't keep hold of anything
So...not the best example of setting the bar but I think it went ok in the end after some initial f ups.
H got home and wasn't in a very good mood (complaining about money again). We chatted a bit and then he said he was sorry he missed the nachos and asked if I ate them. I didn't feel like it had been long enough since he got back but because he brought it up I decided to say
So I said "thank you for apologising, when you bailed on our plans and didn't apologise in your text I felt disrespected and hurt and like my time didn't matter".
He just got defensive and said "sorry I made you feel disrespected but it was Mother's Day"
He then got up and walked away and said he would make us teas.
I was annoyed at him leaving but decided the STFU and after a minute he said "look I am sorry, I do respect your time and I was sad to miss the nachos too."
I said "I really do understand its Mother's Day and why you felt you should stay but you didn't apologise in the text" he said something like "I wasn't thinking straight when I sent that text"
I then got really angry because I felt like he was offering excuses instead of apologies and no validation so I made mistake no 2 and said "ok I know I can't make you apologise" and started to walk away and he said "I am apologising". I said "well it doesn't feel like an apology" and he looked really angry but then took a deep breath and said "I am sorry, I was really sad, I was looking forward to watching the f1 together, and I understand"
And I was like "ahh that's what I needed to hear" and then he gave me a hug.
I said it was hard for me to tell him and he said "I know it's asked thank you so much for telling me" and hugged me again. I thanked him for listening.
I ended up crying a little, I know I shouldn't have. I asked if he wanted to watch the f1 tomorrow and he just said "no i saw the first 10 minutes and it wasn't that good" and that's what made me cry (I know, ridiculous). He asked why and I said "oh I was just trying to suggest an alternative" and he said "that's really nice, let's watch next time and tomorrow lets see something else"
I also explained what validation is to him (just in a factual way, I didn't actually ask him to do it I just explained the technique) and he said
"Hmm ok I think I'll get it I'll try to remember".
Sorry for all the typos!
The negatives/what I'd do differently:
-I think I approached it too soon after he got home
-maybe I should have waited till tomorrow so I was less emotional
-I cried when he said the f1 race wasn't that good and we shouldn't watch it tomorrow (I think I felt rejected, and like nothing I offered was "good enough", even though that's not true)
The positives:
-it felt good
-I didn't speak to him in an angry way like I would have in the past
-it seemed to take him awhile to process his feelings but in the end he seemed genuinely sorry
-i think it helped when I STFU after he walked away, and let him work through his feelings/what to say instead of following him and forcing him to talk
-he did genuinely seem to be interested in remembering validation
-he suggested another activity (watching the next f1) and expressed that he'd "really been looking forward to watching it all together"
I miss H so badly today. I'm stuck in bed with a throat infection and really I just want a cuddle, and I miss him. So I'm going to rant, please forgive me sounding really pathetic!
Earlier I apologised to H for being too argumentative in the past (this is something my DB coach and I discussed, as a way to get him to talk more about his feelings - but it didn't seem to work, to borrow Vanilla's expression I guess his speakers still aren't connected and this didn't connect them). He replied with "And I'm sorry for not arguing enough." Then he looked at me and said "you really don't need to apologise" and gave me a long hug/held me for a few minutes. I looked up and he was staring at us holding each other in the mirror. I looked too and it made me so happy and sad at the same time.
I really miss my H. I miss snuggling on the sofa together and watching a movie. Over the past few months he has started sitting closer and closer to me on the sofa, until last night we were pressed right up against each other arm to arm...and it was so hard not to reach out to him.
I miss our cuddles before we went to bed and when he woke me up in the morning. Every morning now when he comes to wake me up he leans over and gives me a hug and presses his cheek against mine and I so badly want to just pull him into bed.
I miss walking to work together holding hands. I miss our dates nights, and spending our weekends exploring together and going on adventures and trying out new things.
I miss telling him ILY and him telling me. I miss talking about our problems, and our hopes and dreams for the future, and planning the future. I miss feeling like I was so loved and supported I could take on anything. I miss knowing our love made me stronger.
Last summer we took a tango class together. We had to switch partners on each song. H was really awful with every other woman in the place - constantly stepping on their feet and one woman even shouted at him. I was decent but not fantastic when I had to partner with the other men. But when we danced together, H and I were amazing, one of the best couples in the class, and the teacher remarked how smoothly we danced together and how we just seemed to know what the other was thinking. I miss just "knowing" H.
I know I will be fine on my own. I actually really enjoy being single and living on my own and just being able to do whatever I want. I don't need my H. But I love him, and I miss him, and I want him in my life.
I know this isn't really my problem. We had a few minor problems in our M, but I don't believe they were big enough to D over. I really think overall we had a really good, even amazing, M. All our friends remarked on how well suited we were. I think this is a problem within him. I just don't understand how it happened so suddenly.
I just miss my husband today, and it's hard when he feels so close yet just out of reach.
My coach said in our last call she thinks he's more in than out. But I just miss him being all in. And I'm scared.
Sorry for today's pathetic rant.
I agree it isn't pathetic. It's completely understandable and it all resonates with me!
Hope you feel better soon....lots of fluids for your throat!
T x
Thanks PM and Toots! I don't think I could say all this to people I know "IRL"/face to face, because I try so hard to be strong in front of people. But it's nice to vent sometimes so I'm glad I can vent here.
I think I still need to work on being more optimistic (it's one of my goals in general, not a problem in my m but I just want to be because I've always been pessimistic). I am still struggling with hope and faith vs expectations.
Like when my coach said to me she believes "much much more that he's in than out"...I just can't get that to sink in. I don't know why.
I think I am scared if I believe that, then I will end up being more disappointed. Or even that if I believe something positive, it will make it not happen. I don't know if I'm making sense. I only know that's kind of messed up!
I really feel like I need more hope and faith to continue my DB journey, I am feeling exhausted and I need faith to keep me going. I just need to make sure it's faith, and not expectations.
Susana, are you familiar with The Stockdale Paradox?
It's the best life attitude I've ever seen for balancing the difficult dance between "faith that you'll prevail in the end," and yet still "confronting the brutal reality of your current situation."
It's worth a read, including the context from which Stockdale came to believe it -- and live it.
Starsky
Thanks Starsky, yes I've read about it before after seeing it mentioned here on the boards. Intellectually I get it but figuring out how to put that into practice...a little bit harder.
I found a short article on it before but I'll have a look and see if I can find a longer read, maybe that will help me wrap my head around it better.
Hang in there Susana. I often have days like that. I miss my W terribly, I think about all the good times, the happy memories, and the many smiles and laughs. When she was by the house on the weekend she gave me along hug while crying and saying sorry, I didn’t want to let her go, was very hard.
Just know that we feel your pain and have been there, and we are here for you now. Please continue to vent to us.
So...H and I had a nice evening, ate nachos and watched a film. He even opened up to me about his emotions a little (that was one of my goals with my DB coach this week), about his stepmum but it was still good.
When I got in bed he came to say good night and I decided to ask if he wanted to stay in the bed, like my coach suggested. I chickened out a little, instead of asking if he wanted to move back to the bed (As in for good)I just said
"Do you want to sleep here?"
And he replied "no, I should go to the sofa."
I held it together in front of him pretty well and just lightly said "ok then, good night!" And made a joke about waking me up early but not too early.
But as soon as he left I kind of fell apart.
I just feel like I should give up on my sitch now. I know it's not like he said "absolutely not I want to D" but I just feel like he might as well have, he doesn't communicate what he's feeling so I kind of have to read between the lines and I have no hope for the future now.
He felt like he was moving torwards me but this just makes me question it and whether I was just imagining any progress.
Btw thanks burger and foolish for your support earlier with my rant.
Try not to put too much weight into it. I know it's hard. Remember, he might have felt the same way when you kicked him out the other night, saucy and playful or not.
Celebrate the goal, he is opening up!
Big picture - I know it feels like he is the one with all the control in this situation, but you are clearly moving some mountains within you and the dynamics all the same.
Be kind to yourself, it's ok to be tired. Learn a lesson from my stumbles and try not to push things to be ok and full on when you're exhausted maybe?
I know with me, it's almost a cycle of desperation and rejection, I go looking for a sign of hope or that things are going in the direction I want, and then I tell myself a negative story about how they're not, big pity party, and I wear myself down into a more desperate, upset, sad place where everything becomes increasingly magnified and then I'm looking for my next clue like a bloodhound, practically demanding it. I know we've been able to relate a bit, so I think the key is respecting the need for rest and turning the attention away when you find yourself there. Your insight above is key - it's not like he said he wanted a D, but it feels that way. Maybe you can work on getting back to a place where his little rejection would have been a point of interest for you rather than so heartfelt on your end?
I think you're doing fantastic, and you must be everything he says you are - one of the kindest, most amazing people! Plus, apparently you look really good in your underwear. Snuggle with these thoughts as you go to bed. There are plenty of fish in the seas for you if he turns out to be a fool
Wishing you a strong place tomorrow.
Hi lovely Z, thank you fr your kind words.
I know I should celebrate the positives and that he opened up rather than focus on the negatives.
The opening up was quite interesting...
I have previously shied away from sharing my feeling because it isn't exactly DB, and in the past he told me he was overwhelmed by my feeling sometimes and feeling responsible for them. But my coach and I discussed sharing a little to "model" sharing feelings, and it seemed to work. (Plus I was exhausted of acting happy all the time and decided I might have to vent to him)
It was interesting and I'll have to experiment.
I asked "how are you feeling?" And he just answered "ok, you?" And I said "ok."
Some time passed and I asked again and again he just said "ok, you?" But this time I told him some frustrations I had at work. I spoke maybe a minute. And then he started telling me about how frustrated he was about stuff with his stepmum. And he spoke around 15 minutes!!!
I was shocked.
I am not as upset as I thought I would be about the bed thing. I cried a couple of minutes and stopped.
Now I feel more numb than anything.
Just a big defeated and like I should just move on.
My only consolation is he's making a lot of noise in the living room so I guess he's having trouble sleeping. I hope so anyway, lol.
You're right though Z, I am letting myself in to a cycle of exhaustion. I want it all, right now, too.
I need some rest. I am planning on going away next week. It will be nice to have a holiday.
Thank you so much for your kind words.
I will be thinking of those as I go to sleep!
I have no doubt I could meet someone else, or be very happy on my own. I love living on my own. I just happen to like living with H more.
Having trouble sleeping.
It's been an hour and a half since we went to bed and I can hear H up too, he's restless, keeps walking around in the living room and I can hear him pouring himself glass after glass of sparkling water.
I know it's ridiculous to read more into it but my H never talks about his feelings and I really feel like him saying no to staying in the bed is just like him saying he still wants to D.
Nothing has changed.
I feel so hopeless.
I know he loves me, from the way he acts, but something is holding him back.
And I know I "rejected" him too last week.
Maybe I don't know how to handle no. He has said no to anything I've asked or suggested in our sitch so far, all the activities.
Why is it so hard for me then to hear no here? Why does it make me feel so hopeless?
susana - I caught up on this thread. But no where did I see what you are planning on doing, what 180s you are implementing or any talk about your course of direction. I did see a couple lists of the pros and cons from interactions, which I think is important. But a plan may be helpful. What do you think?
Maybe because you had hope and were looking forward to a H sleeping sober beside you? I get it, the disappointment must be hard. Expectations are the root of all suffering it seems. An activity, if it is rejected...it's different than an invite to be intimate, close as you used to be.
But also - sometimes when they have a lot on their mind, people like to be alone to pace and digest. It could be that, and there is always tomorrow or some time next week - you have opened that door and he may choose to walk in through it, later! How wonderful it is that the invite is there, it must have taken courage. YOu know it is one less obstacle for him and one more reason you may be at peace that you have tried. And it will help pave the way if he chooses. You never know what the outcome is, whether you see it right away or not.
If something is holding him back...does it make you feel any better to realize you can't do anything about it, even with your best DBing self? It's not a judgement on you, or some magic that you haven't found to turn this around. You're giving it the best shot it has, and that may be the only peace you have (though I wish we had that crystal ball for you.)
susana - I caught up on this thread. But no where did I see what you are planning on doing, what 180s you are implementing or any talk about your course of direction. I did see a couple lists of the pros and cons from interactions, which I think is important. But a plan may be helpful. What do you think?
Hi mahhhty, thanks for your comment
I have been a little lazy about posting my 180s on the first post of my thread which I used to.
My 180s are:
-not being critical, and offering thanks and WOA instead
-not being reactive, and being less argumentative, taking at least 24 hours before bringing up anything that's upset me
-seeing IC to work on anxiety and mood
My coach and several others have mentioned recently it doesn't seem like this has stemmed from issues in my M, but rather something in H. We were transitioning from the honeymoon phase and he seems stumped on how to handle the challenges that arise in an M... (Or possibly he has a Disney-fied version of what an M entails). He has never really criticised me so my 180s are mainly things I want to change.
I have a few goals from my DB coach for this week, maybe I need a longer term plan not really sure.
Good point though, I should post these here
Goals from my DB coach this week:
-encourage H to share his feelings more, by asking open ended questions and validating, sharing my feelings a little but not too much (succeeded on this tonight but need to do more)
-invite H to move back into bed (did this tonight(
-find an activity over a weekend i can invite him to
I see you are having your emotions shooting up and down. I know the feeling and have been there before, even when things seemed to be all positive. For me it was a matter of fatigue and not sleeping well. I know it is hard during times like this but take care of yourself physically and you will notice your mental health following suit.
Maybe because you had hope and were looking forward to a H sleeping sober beside you? I get it, the disappointment must be hard. Expectations are the root of all suffering it seems. An activity, if it is rejected...it's different than an invite to be intimate, close as you used to be.
But also - sometimes when they have a lot on their mind, people like to be alone to pace and digest. It could be that, and there is always tomorrow or some time next week - you have opened that door and he may choose to walk in through it, later! How wonderful it is that the invite is there, it must have taken courage. YOu know it is one less obstacle for him and one more reason you may be at peace that you have tried. And it will help pave the way if he chooses. You never know what the outcome is, whether you see it right away or not.
If something is holding him back...does it make you feel any better to realize you can't do anything about it, even with your best DBing self? It's not a judgement on you, or some magic that you haven't found to turn this around. You're giving it the best shot it has, and that may be the only peace you have (though I wish we had that crystal ball for you.)
Here's the messed up bit...I don't think I had expectations (in fact I thought he would probably say no even though my coach thought he would say yes) but I think I wouldn't have been happy even if he had said yes. When I envisioned different scenarios, I told myself if he said no that's ok because it doesn't change anything. He's already on the sofa. When I imagined him saying yes, I realised I probably wouldn't even be happy with that, because I'd think "ok he's here now, and what about tomorrow? And he still hasn't said he's committed so him sleeping here means nothing" etc. I realise this is probably a problem I need to address...
Thanks. It did take a lot of guts and I am glad I put it out there although I wished I'd phrased it differently. The way my coach suggested saying it made it sound like an offer to move back for good and I think the way I said it sounded more like a one time offer. I did think to myself "maybe he'll take me up on the offer later" but then I tried to squash that thought because I didn't want to get my hopes up.
Heh, you know, you would think it would make me feel better but I'm a way it's the thing freaking me out the most. And I know it's linked up to my desire to control outcomes. But the thing is, before i discovered DB I was sad because I was convinced my M was over and there was nothing to be done. Then I found DB and saw that sometimes one person can effect change and I thought "well I can try this, I can own me part and change things". But the more and more i dig into my sitch and the more I think maybe it's his issues and not to do with me, it actually freaks me out. Because that means there's not much I can do here big equally scary not much I can do to prevent this happening in the future to me again. And since there were no signs leading up to it it's not like it's even something I could predict on the future...
I see you are having your emotions shooting up and down. I know the feeling and have been there before, even when things seemed to be all positive. For me it was a matter of fatigue and not sleeping well. I know it is hard during times like this but take care of yourself physically and you will notice your mental health following suit.
Thanks Gogofo. I probably do need more sleep! I didn't sleep well last week (was up too late teasing/making out/ML, lol!) and then over the weekend I tried to catch up but it still wasn't enough - and now I've come down with a throat infection which isn't helping!
Susana, don't worry about venting on here. A few weeks ago, you were telling me to vent. And don't apologize to yourself for being down. This is extremely exhausting work, and we miss our Hs. It's perfectly natural that it catches up to you sometimes. And it seems to be when we're sick and/or tired. Just let us help support you. *Hugs*
Thanks Eirinn. It's great to be able to vent here.
I'm wondering if I'm done this morning. I will sit with my feelings awhile, see how I feel when I'm over my illness, and after my holiday next week.
H was very nice to me this morning which somehow makes things worse. He woke me up late, skipped his workout saying he was tired, we went to bed earlier than usual so he must have slept poorly (it took me about 2 hours to get to sleep and I could hear him tossing and turning on the sofa the whole time).
I mentioned to him needing to call the cleaning company. He said to do it today then said "wait don't call them, I know you hate it, let me do it for you? Text me the number and I'll do it over my lunch break." H used to make all phone calls because I really hate the phone, but he hasn't offered since before BD (and obviously I haven't asked). It was a small thing but it was a nice gesture but it made me sad.
Last night I was thinking about impending S. H and I agreed at beginning of Jan we'd stay in our rental until I got word on my visa. He hasn't brought it up (S or D) since but I should get word on my visa in the next few weeks. My coach sees this as a good sign (him not bringing it up) but tbh I don't know if he's just being avoidant and burying his head in the sand. I've decided I will go NC when we S, and for the last few days I've been thinking about while I will say. It made me so sad thinking of never seeing or speaking to H again.
My GF who I confide in about these things told me to stop borrowing trouble and if/when it gets to that stage she will help me write out what to say but we're not there yet. But, I want to be realistic and prepare myself for the future.
Then I found DB and saw that sometimes one person can effect change and I thought "well I can try this, I can own me part and change things". But the more and more i dig into my sitch and the more I think maybe it's his issues and not to do with me, it actually freaks me out. Because that means there's not much I can do here big equally scary not much I can do to prevent this happening in the future to me again. And since there were no signs leading up to it it's not like it's even something I could predict on the future...
Susana - the quote struck me, slightly as damage control. In DB/DR and the Solo Partner, they talk about how a spouse's reaction is their own reaction, however, you, as a partner, enable that reaction. Instead of being scared and labeling it as "his issues" think of it as your marriage and your marriage is the couple's issues. Furthermore, as he opens up about his feelings try to answer the question "What have I (susana) done to reinforce that feeling/action/emotion?"
Susana - the quote struck me, slightly as damage control. In DB/DR and the Solo Partner, they talk about how a spouse's reaction is their own reaction, however, you, as a partner, enable that reaction. Instead of being scared and labeling it as "his issues" think of it as your marriage and your marriage is the couple's issues. Furthermore, as he opens up about his feelings try to answer the question "What have I (susana) done to reinforce that feeling/action/emotion?"
Hi mahhhty thanks so much for your perspective here!
Sorry the below is long but I'll try and cover off the basic background of my sitch and 180s.
When he dropped the bomb he told me he wanted to D because he "didn't feel like himself any more" and specifically because he'd given up activities he thought I wouldn't like - biking and playing GTA, and he felt like he wasn't seeing enough of his friends and family. He also said he was really happy most of the time, except when we argued then he wasn't happy, and he doesn't want to have any arguments at all. He says he has a fear of conflict and is also a people pleaser. He said he should have told me earlier stuff he wasn't happy about but he didn't want to have problems in our M so he thought keeping it in would be better and the most loving thing to do, and then it all built up until it was too much.
So out of this I realised:
-I have been too critical and judgemental in the past
-I was too argumentative
-I let stress over my job and depression grow and didn't take care of it
I have been working 180s on all of the above. I'm still a WIP of course, but I am pretty pleased with how it's going so far.
After a few months of not talking about anything R related or really feeling related, after some discussion with my coach and on here, I decided to apologise and own my part for some of these.
So far all of the conversations have basically gone with H trying to take blame back onto himself.
When he noticed I had started taking ADs and asked me about it:
Me: I should have started on these a long time ago. I'm sorry for how hard it must have been for you when I was so down about work in the autumn.
H: Don't apologise. There's no need to apologise.
Me: I want to thank you for taking care of me during that difficult time.
H: Well I didn't do a very good job. I think I made it worse. [hugs me]
Me: No, you didn't, I needed help and I wasn't getting it and you took care of me- thanks.
H: Really you don't need to thank me.
About arguments:
Me: I'm sorry for being so argumentative in the past.
H: Well I'm sorry for not arguing enough.
H: And you don't need to apologise. [hugs me]
About criticism:
Me: I just wanted to tell you I'm really sorry for how critical I was and how that must have been for you.
H: What? I don't think you were that critical, were you?
Me: I feel like maybe I was. I thought that maybe I made you feel like you weren't good enough. Which isn't true - I think you are a great person.
H: I'm not that good of a person.
Me: What makes you say that?
H: I'm just not. [holds me]
H: You're the loveliest and kindest person I know.
^^With the talk on criticism, I had some thoughts as to why H may have said I'm not that critical (I thought he might just not say, because he is not a critical person himself) but my coach suggested just taking it "at face value", and that maybe this shows it's more about his issues.
I guess my conclusion to all of these conversations we've had is he has very low self-esteem right now. Me being critical of course would reinforce that feeling
But then he claims I am not critical.
At any rate, I've been trying to work on gratitude and WOA, but so far when I thank him for something he does around the house (say, doing the laundry or taking out the trash) he tends to say "don't thank me for that, it's nothing" and when I compliment him on something he'll say "no I'm not that good, that's not true." I don't know if I'm totally missing the mark here
Or if his self esteem is really so low he can't take a compliment right now. And I don't know if that means I ought to continue with the compliments in spite of his words to the contrary.
Also - H is opening up about his feelings in general, like his frustrations with his stepmum, but so far not in regards to me (well, apart from to tell me I'm beautiful, gorgeous etc., he loves living with me and I'm the loveliest and kindest person he knows - which is nice to hear! - but doesn't really help me make changes, only confuses me). I don't think he'll tell me what frustrations he has with me or our M.
Susan
Now the speakers are beginning to work, you will get the tape that is currently on the tape deck. My suggestion is listen to that, over and over until you have heard all of it several times and H is validated. Eventually he will play the next tape, and the next tape, each time with more complex material as he builds confidence that you are validating, understanding and not judging.
That is what we do with friends, we build friendship by sharing confidences. Apparently men have a harder time, except that for me seeing all of these wonderful men on this forum that is a very old fashioned view. Once the speakers are connected then the rush to express starts. After all on this board the speakers are connected and there is a loving, helpful listening audience.
We listen on the board here, are kind and validate (ok if the tape loops or the music is discordant or is a recording of nails on a blackboard we 2x4). This is learning that I want to take to our real life sitch and apply. I often ask 'what would Wonka say' or this is a 'Starsky view of DB' or 'Whose sitch is applicable that I can look to' or 'Cadet said that' or 'wisdom from Sandi needed here' .
Often posters mention resources that I find useful too, have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?; that was very informative to me and I think you might get something out of it too. Susan every extra tool, major increment in improving Susan is worth doing for Susan, irrespective of H. Some extra tools are worth having, other tools are useful if you are doing major repairs, others great for decorating, a wide range is useful. Extra fuses for when the lights go, washers for the leaky tap and a range of screwdrivers. Some of us when we arrive here only own a hammer and a wrench, not much use when the lights fuse.
There will be a point at which Susan will simply want to live her life as she is happy being who she is, just a warm functioning human being with an expanded tool box. Extra specialist tools have limited use for anyone other than a specialist. One soldering iron for general use is fine but a soldering iron for fine electronics may never be used by Susan. However if you enjoy it, go learn fine electronics, you have the soldering iron and magnifying glass.
V
At any rate, I've been trying to work on gratitude and WOA, but so far when I thank him for something he does around the house (say, doing the laundry or taking out the trash) he tends to say "don't thank me for that, it's nothing" and when I compliment him on something he'll say "no I'm not that good, that's not true." I don't know if I'm totally missing the mark here frown Or if his self esteem is really so low he can't take a compliment right now. And I don't know if that means I ought to continue with the compliments in spite of his words to the contrary.
You know what... I do the same thing. When X would thank me for something, I would say "Don't worry about it" or "You don't have to thank me." And I meant it. She shouldn't have to thank me for doing things I should be doing. HOWEVER, I liked that she noticed I was doing things, and honestly, I really did want her to thank me.
I have a slightly different spin on it... try to do something he knows you don't like, and if (and I do mean IF) he thanks you say, "Oh well I thought because you did X, a good thank you would be for me to do Y."
Just an idea!
So that is what they are?
I thought I was mixing my metaphors, was always told off for that at school. Mixed metaphors.......
That should be in my eulogy 'mixed her metaphors', I always thought is sounded like a disease and was a very bad thing indeed. But it cheers my clients up when I deliver bad news on their tax bills!
V
Yeah, analogies, metaphors, similes . . . who knows. You're talking to a guy that STILL can't remember when to use "straw man" or "red herring" in a debate, lol.
"Mixed Metaphors" -- BAND NAME!
Starsky
At any rate, I've been trying to work on gratitude and WOA, but so far when I thank him for something he does around the house (say, doing the laundry or taking out the trash) he tends to say "don't thank me for that, it's nothing" and when I compliment him on something he'll say "no I'm not that good, that's not true." I don't know if I'm totally missing the mark here frown Or if his self esteem is really so low he can't take a compliment right now. And I don't know if that means I ought to continue with the compliments in spite of his words to the contrary.
You know what... I do the same thing. When X would thank me for something, I would say "Don't worry about it" or "You don't have to thank me." And I meant it. She shouldn't have to thank me for doing things I should be doing. HOWEVER, I liked that she noticed I was doing things, and honestly, I really did want her to thank me.
I have a slightly different spin on it... try to do something he knows you don't like, and if (and I do mean IF) he thanks you say, "Oh well I thought because you did X, a good thank you would be for me to do Y."
Just an idea!
I like this. Thanks for the idea, mahhty! I will be trying this.
Recently I have been occasionally doing some things that I don't like doing (which are normally H's 'jobs' around the house), because I realised he does a lot of AoS and it didn't seem entirely fair. However his reaction's been mixed - sometimes he seems really pleased and says thank you and gives me a big smile and hug, other times he says "why did you do that? that's my job!" and seems almost a little annoyed I've stepped into his turf. But when he says thanks I haven't done your above suggestion, so I will try that too. Worth adding in to the mix
Susan
Now the speakers are beginning to work, you will get the tape that is currently on the tape deck. My suggestion is listen to that, over and over until you have heard all of it several times and H is validated. Eventually he will play the next tape, and the next tape, each time with more complex material as he builds confidence that you are validating, understanding and not judging.
Vanilla - Starsky is right, you really do have the best analogies (mixed metaphors). This is a good point, perhaps he just needs to play the tape out.
I find it a little weird I was able to activate his tape by playing mine, when I thought the very last thing he'd want to hear was how I was feeling, but hey! That seemed to work. Or possibly it was the waiting, or the activity we were doing together - or all three.
I thought of your description of your bestie. H got home and I asked how he was. Nothing. I waited, waited. He did laundry, dishes. I thanked him. And waited. Made tea. Waited. He worked on computer project for a bit. Wait. Wait. He asked me to make dinner together, I asked how he was and he said fine, asked me and I replied honestly (nervous about work) and BOOM - suddenly his speakers connected, tape playing on high volume.
That is what we do with friends, we build friendship by sharing confidences. Apparently men have a harder time, except that for me seeing all of these wonderful men on this forum that is a very old fashioned view. Once the speakers are connected then the rush to express starts. After all on this board the speakers are connected and there is a loving, helpful listening audience.
Since I know you're familiar with al turtle too
This reminds me a little of his stuff - once the lizard is safe, then there is a rush to share, and everything comes out. Perhaps I made H's lizard safe and that's why the spakers connected. Now to figure out exactly how I did that, wash, rinse, repeat.
We listen on the board here, are kind and validate (ok if the tape loops or the music is discordant or is a recording of nails on a blackboard we 2x4). This is learning that I want to take to our real life sitch and apply. I often ask 'what would Wonka say' or this is a 'Starsky view of DB' or 'Whose sitch is applicable that I can look to' or 'Cadet said that' or 'wisdom from Sandi needed here' .
Often posters mention resources that I find useful too, have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?; that was very informative to me and I think you might get something out of it too. Susan every extra tool, major increment in improving Susan is worth doing for Susan, irrespective of H. Some extra tools are worth having, other tools are useful if you are doing major repairs, others great for decorating, a wide range is useful. Extra fuses for when the lights go, washers for the leaky tap and a range of screwdrivers. Some of us when we arrive here only own a hammer and a wrench, not much use when the lights fuse.
There will be a point at which Susan will simply want to live her life as she is happy being who she is, just a warm functioning human being with an expanded tool box. Extra specialist tools have limited use for anyone other than a specialist. One soldering iron for general use is fine but a soldering iron for fine electronics may never be used by Susan. However if you enjoy it, go learn fine electronics, you have the soldering iron and magnifying glass.
V
I have a very long list of reading material but have been slack in my reading lately. NMMNG is on my list but I hadn't picked it up yet because I felt like this was more a "book for H" than a "book for S" - that is, I wasn't sure if I would get anything out of it or if it was mainly aimed at the Nice Guy. But I am going to take up your suggestion, it's downloaded on my Kindle now so I will be reading it tonight.
Major GAL update here: I have just booked tickets to Romania for a week, leaving Saturday. Yes, I'm so responsible I plan my holidays abroad 4 whole days in advance.
ETA: Don't worry this isn't symptomatic of a breakdown, this is more like a return to "old Susana"/who I used to be
I once booked a round the world ticket a week and a half in advance. (Of course before doing this you should *always* check on how long it takes to procure a Chinese visa)
Romania, always wanted to go.
Wonder if Gan has been there? She normal travels...........
Adventure and terrific GAL.
Just the ticket!
V
Excellent - a last minute holiday! Good for you...now you can be the one to skip off for a long weekend and leave H to his own devices :-)
Thanks guys, I am so excited for romania!! I've wanted to go for awhile! Ooh happy to hear from anyone who's been there
Toots, I have to admit I am sorely tempted to "forget" to mention my trip until the night before...but I won't stoop that low.
Mahhhty - I have now tested with mixed results. I started putting away cleaning supplies from the cleaners visit and H asked why I was doing it and I said to thank him for doing all the laundry and dishes last night. He said "thanks!" And sounded very grateful. But then stopped me midway through and said "ok that's enough now."
Congrats on Romania! And good job working it in. I wouldn't overcompensate, use it sparingly for now and gauge its effectiveness.
I really have no hope right now for my sitch. Feeling really low.
I don't know why exactly because objectively things are fairly stable and ok.
H was very complimentary this morning - you're going to do well at the training, you're so good at presenting, you're so beautiful, etc. And I played my game where I see how many times I can "excite" him in the 20 minutes before leaving for work (he walks around in his underwear constantly so easy to tell), I find it fun to tease and he is so easy. This morning it was 4 times including once when all I did was smile while brushing my teeth. (I do find the game fun
but I am a bit evil)
It's his birthday tomorrow so I made him birthday dinner tonight. When he got home I had some snacks out - olives, chips and salsa and guacamole. Dinner was tacos and chocolate cake for dessert. Got a nice bottle of wine that is now my new favourite red. H was really really happy, must have given me about 10 thank you hugs and kept saying how the food was amazing.
When I went to wash the dishes after dinner he tried to step in and I said no, it's your birthday dinner. He eventually relented and let me wash up. I realised that he has never just let me take care of him like that. And that made me cry.
I'm reading NMMNG and omg this is my h. Really wish I could give him the book.
When I was getting ready for bed he walked in on me changing and apologised. That was odd.
I am really looking forward to my trip. Maybe it will give me some perspective. At the moment I feel completely out of hope.
Random question here...
I just saw over in complex's thread some discussions of looking at other women and imagining an R not with WAW and it made me think of this thing that happened to me this morning.
Earlier today I tried to imagine myself with another man, and it actually made me sick to my stomach. I've imagined my future life without H, and I always imagine myself single. I love being single and I love living on my own (and before I met H I could not picture living with someone). I hate hate hate dating (early stages), so maybe this plays into it.
I can imagine a single future and look forward to it, imagine being happier even. I've even planned out my travels. But imagining an R with another man? Makes me feel queasy.
Has anyone else found this?
You bet. Early on in my sitch, I convinced myself that should W and I go through with a D, I would remain a bachelor for the rest of my life (and be ok with it). However, as time progresses, I find myself slowly warming up to the idea of eventually dating. What I 'dread' now is meeting new potential in laws/family. The thought of 'replacing' a 2nd family of 15+ years will do that to you. Don't sweat it right now...
I really have no hope right now for my sitch. Feeling really low.
I don't know why exactly because objectively things are fairly stable and ok.
H was very complimentary this morning - you're going to do well at the training, you're so good at presenting, you're so beautiful, etc. And I played my game where I see how many times I can "excite" him in the 20 minutes before leaving for work (he walks around in his underwear constantly so easy to tell), I find it fun to tease and he is so easy. This morning it was 4 times including once when all I did was smile while brushing my teeth. (I do find the game fun
but I am a bit evil)
It's his birthday tomorrow so I made him birthday dinner tonight. When he got home I had some snacks out - olives, chips and salsa and guacamole. Dinner was tacos and chocolate cake for dessert. Got a nice bottle of wine that is now my new favourite red. H was really really happy, must have given me about 10 thank you hugs and kept saying how the food was amazing.
When I went to wash the dishes after dinner he tried to step in and I said no, it's your birthday dinner. He eventually relented and let me wash up. I realised that he has never just let me take care of him like that. And that made me cry.
I'm reading NMMNG and omg this is my h. Really wish I could give him the book.
When I was getting ready for bed he walked in on me changing and apologised. That was odd.
I am really looking forward to my trip. Maybe it will give me some perspective. At the moment I feel completely out of hope.
You're KILLIN' me, Smalls.
I'm with Starsky. I didn't know those games existed. Perhaps I am naive.
From the post that Starsky quoted, it seemed like a good morning and a good night. Does today not give you any hope? If so, why?
I can imagine a single future and look forward to it, imagine being happier even. I've even planned out my travels. But imagining an R with another man? Makes me feel queasy.
For a couple of months at the beginning, I thought that every woman was ugly. I would look at actresses in make up ads and think that they were ugly. I remember being set up on a blind date early and spending a lot of time wondering what life would be with this new person (I was not even attracted, it was a thought experiment) and realizing all that it implies: new habits, new taste in clothes and music, new in-laws, new history. I really didn't like that. I can't say where I stand on this, but I no longer think that all women are ugly.
I'm reading NMMNG and omg this is my h.
Oh yes. I noticed that.
Susana,
Many people here would give their right pinky finger to be in your shoes.
Perspective...
M'kay?
Hi there, Susana. I get it, purgatory stinks. If you don't feel like anything is changing or moving, it can be frustrating to those of us used to getting it done and who love controlling outcomes.
I've been thinking lately, maybe your H could really benefit from a good dose of missing you. Especially since he's still so appreciative, into you. Who knows, what say you? When is your Romania trip?
Thanks guys and sorry for not being more appreciative of my sitch. I know, logically, that things are going fairly "well" (as well as sitches go, of course).
I'd say that I don't feel positive because of H saying no when I asked him to come back to the bed, but truth be told I was feeling like this for the last couple of weeks before that setback. It's like I had a little flame of hope that burned itself out, and now I don't know how to re-light it and I can't seem to find any matches. Does anyone have a flint and steel handy?
It's like I had a little flame of hope that burned itself out, and now I don't know how to re-light it and I can't seem to find any matches. Does anyone have a flint and steel handy?
Maybe the best thing is to figure out how to move in a different direction.
I for one am pretty sure you can not LOVE them back into a relationship.
Really their is no going backwards into what was,
you need a new relationship and marriage even if it is with him.
Maybe this is the way it is suppose to go.
Hi there, Susana. I get it, purgatory stinks. If you don't feel like anything is changing or moving, it can be frustrating to those of us used to getting it done and who love controlling outcomes.
I've been thinking lately, maybe your H could really benefit from a good dose of missing you. Especially since he's still so appreciative, into you. Who knows, what say you? When is your Romania trip?
I agree with this. ^^ I still think you're smothering him, Susana, and I can guar-an-damn-tee you that if WE can feel the "nothing he does is quite good enough" vibe from you, HE feels it 10x over.
I don't think it's your over-analysis of everything as much as it is -- after you analyze it -- you usually find what he does for you wanting, coming up short.
If I were your H, I would feel like "there's no pleasing that woman" sometimes.
Starsky
Cadet - that's a good point. I am feeling a little stagnant right now, I need to move in a new direction (maybe a literal move...towards Eastern Europe...ha!). Interesting point about not being able to love someone back, I've heard that here before and it makes sense but on the other hand how do we reconcile that against unconditional love? My coach was talking today about the importance of unconditional love.
Starsky -
"nothing he does is quite good enough" vibe from you - that's a really good point and got me thinking, I am guilty as charged. And timely too as I saw it as I was about to get on a call with my DB coach. She didn't think I am smothering but she did think I might be sending this vibe. This is where we got into a discussion of unconditional love. I know I feel internally like nothing I do is good enough, and therefore nothing in the world is good enough...and probably that makes H feel like nothing he does is good enough... Wow.
One of my pieces of homework from IC this week is "thought challenging" critical/negative thinking.
Zelda - You know, this could be an unintended but positive side effect of my trip...
I leave Saturday morning for Romania. I am gone for a week and then he is going to his great aunt's either the day before I get back or just after. So I won't see him for 7 to 9 days.
I think I am leaving him with a good memory because we had a nice evening last night and this morning for his bday (he loved the card I gave him - Wonka, I did as you suggested and got a personal card!). I have no idea if he'll miss me or if I'll ever even know but it wouldn't be a negative side effect.
Susana,
I am glad to hear that H enjoyed his BD card.
Have a happy and safe travels to Romania.
LOVE is unconditional, yes. But MARITAL BOUNDARIES should NOT be.
From my personal archives:
LOVE is unconditional.
FORGIVENESS, too (or -- better -- it is a CHOICE, a DECISION).
RELATIONSHIPS . . . and certainly MARRIAGES . . . I don't believe they are.
It's a MYTH, and I think it's a potentially dangerous one. Marriage is UNDERGIRDED by love -- maybe even unconditional love -- but the marriage contract itself, does that not have all KINDS of conditions?
Would you remain married to your wife if she abused puppies? Did illegal drugs in your home, in front of your children? Was involved in human trafficking? Or would you say "I will ALWAYS love you, but I cannot remain MARRIED to you!" ?
Adultery falls SOMEWHERE on that spectrum for each of us . . .somewhere in-between "abusing puppies" and "you snore too much," lol.
I repeat: LOVE is unconditional. MARRIAGE certainly is NOT. At least it shouldn't be, in my opinion.
Starsky
LOVE is unconditional, yes. But MARITAL BOUNDARIES should NOT be.
From my personal archives:
LOVE is unconditional.
FORGIVENESS, too (or -- better -- it is a CHOICE, a DECISION).
RELATIONSHIPS . . . and certainly MARRIAGES . . . I don't believe they are.
It's a MYTH, and I think it's a potentially dangerous one. Marriage is UNDERGIRDED by love -- maybe even unconditional love -- but the marriage contract itself, does that not have all KINDS of conditions?
Would you remain married to your wife if she abused puppies? Did illegal drugs in your home, in front of your children? Was involved in human trafficking? Or would you say "I will ALWAYS love you, but I cannot remain MARRIED to you!" ?
Adultery falls SOMEWHERE on that spectrum for each of us . . .somewhere in-between "abusing puppies" and "you snore too much," lol.
I repeat: LOVE is unconditional. MARRIAGE certainly is NOT. At least it shouldn't be, in my opinion.
Starsky
Susanna dont get confused by the fact that no "other person"
is involved.
Infidelity still exists even if their is NO AFFAIR partner.
This is something that took me quite a long time to understand and come to grips with.
Just because adultery is not being waved in your face does not mean that he is not in a fog, your boundaries were broken when he gave you the bomb.
I can't for the life of me remember who recommended the
Rendezvous video of driving a Ferrari through the streets of Paris but THANK YOU, you are brilliant!
I watched the video and thought "ooh Paris! With a noisy car in the background"
I handed a beer and my computer to H last night and told him to hit play on the video and watch it while I made his birthday dinner. Within seconds he was humming along to the car noise. He loved it so much he then watched a "making of" video and another video of an interview with the driver.
LOVE is unconditional, yes. But MARITAL BOUNDARIES should NOT be.
From my personal archives:
LOVE is unconditional.
FORGIVENESS, too (or -- better -- it is a CHOICE, a DECISION).
RELATIONSHIPS . . . and certainly MARRIAGES . . . I don't believe they are.
It's a MYTH, and I think it's a potentially dangerous one. Marriage is UNDERGIRDED by love -- maybe even unconditional love -- but the marriage contract itself, does that not have all KINDS of conditions?
Would you remain married to your wife if she abused puppies? Did illegal drugs in your home, in front of your children? Was involved in human trafficking? Or would you say "I will ALWAYS love you, but I cannot remain MARRIED to you!" ?
Adultery falls SOMEWHERE on that spectrum for each of us . . .somewhere in-between "abusing puppies" and "you snore too much," lol.
I repeat: LOVE is unconditional. MARRIAGE certainly is NOT. At least it shouldn't be, in my opinion.
Starsky
Susanna dont get confused by the fact that no "other person"
is involved.
Infidelity still exists even if their is NO AFFAIR partner.
This is something that took me quite a long time to understand and come to grips with.
Just because adultery is not being waved in your face does not mean that he is not in a fog, your boundaries were broken when he gave you the bomb.
I am still a bit confused by this tbh. Cadet, I know you explained to me awhile ago about infidelity existing, even in the mind. Which makes sense.
But in terms of setting a boundary it seems clear-cut if there's an OP: "I will not be in a marriage with a third party"
But it doesn't seem like you (I) can say: "I will not be in a marriage with an imaginary third party" Lol!
But it doesn't seem like you (I) can say: "I will not be in a marriage with an imaginary third party" Lol!
Who said anything about this being easy?
Susanna dont get confused by the fact that no "other person"
is involved.
Infidelity still exists even if their is NO AFFAIR partner.
This is something that took me quite a long time to understand and come to grips with.
Just because adultery is not being waved in your face does not mean that he is not in a fog, your boundaries were broken when he gave you the bomb.
Cadet, would you please elaborate on your thoughts a bit more for our dear readers?
What did you mean by that statement?
I am still a bit confused by this tbh. Cadet, I know you explained to me awhile ago about infidelity existing, even in the mind. Which makes sense.
But in terms of setting a boundary it seems clear-cut if there's an OP: "I will not be in a marriage with a third party"
But it doesn't seem like you (I) can say: "I will not be in a marriage with an imaginary third party" Lol!
"I will not be in a marriage where my needs are not being met."
Here ^^^, while your LOVE for this person might be unconditional, you're saying that REMAINING IN A MARRIAGE WITH THEM, when your own needs are not being met, is a dealbreaker. It -- having your needs met -- IS a 'condition' of remaining in the marriage.
I can't for the life of me remember who recommended the Rendezvous video of driving a Ferrari through the streets of Paris but THANK YOU, you are brilliant!
It was me and you are welcome, it has been a while since I have been called brilliant. Inside most men is a little boy that likes loud noises and to drive fast.
I think you vacation is coming at a really good time for the both of you. You seem to be getting eager about your R and creating some expectations for your H. The time away should allow you to miss each other and get some time to clear your head.
I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in the DB process that we forget about all that life has to offer us. I was very guilty of this and put too much time and effort into saving my M instead of living life and also trying to save the M.
Have a great time in Romania.
I think Starsky explained it above but here is some further info.
An Affair Is A Betrayal
Wikipedia directs this definition of the word “affair” to the word “infidelity” and says this about it:
“Infidelity is a violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of an intimate relationship, which constitutes a significant to extreme breach, or outright default, on the implicit good faith contract of a relationship, or a betrayal of core shared values with which the integrity and nature of the relationship is defined. In common use, it describes an act of unfaithfulness to one’s husband, wife, or lover, whether sexual or non-sexual in nature.“
Ultimately, the definition of betrayal belongs to the betrayed.
If you feel your spouse has been unfaithful in some action or relationship outside the marriage, the personal trauma is the same
I hope that helps.
Cadet,
I am reading that ^^ as either EA or PA. That is the strict definition of infidelity. In Susana's case, there's no OW.
Starsky,
Originally Posted By: susana4
I am still a bit confused by this tbh. Cadet, I know you explained to me awhile ago about infidelity existing, even in the mind. Which makes sense.
But in terms of setting a boundary it seems clear-cut if there's an OP: "I will not be in a marriage with a third party"
But it doesn't seem like you (I) can say: "I will not be in a marriage with an imaginary third party" Lol!
"I will not be in a marriage where my needs are not being met."
Here ^^^, while your LOVE for this person might be unconditional, you're saying that REMAINING IN A MARRIAGE WITH THEM, when your own needs are not being met, is a dealbreaker. It -- having your needs met -- IS a 'condition' of remaining in the marriage.
Is it a real dealbreaker? Marriages, as you know, go through cycles where there will be some dry spells and/or spouses may really dislike each other. Does that mean that one's needs are not being met in that scenario? Oh boy...a boundary has been broken! Let's call in the Hazmat team! C'mon.
It may mean a certain way to one person and for another person a whole different set of parameters. Mind you, I am not talking about EA or PAs here.
For instance, a wife knows that her H is a man of few words and given to rare displays of affection. She's, by all accounts, happily married and demonstrates complete acceptance of who her H is...not what he should be as a H. This woman has deliberately chosen to remain in the marriage knowing that not ALL of her needs will be met.
This is where one makes some trade-offs in an ever evolving M.
No?
Cadet,
I am reading that ^^ as either EA or PA. That is the strict definition of infidelity.
"Financial infidelity" (in which one spouse runs up huge debts and hides the bills from their husband or wife, for example) is another example.
In any event, my post was a copy-and-paste from my archives, so it's not going to be 100% on-point. The main point I was trying to make to Susana is that while LOVE may be unconditional, I don't believe it's healthy for marriages to be. Marriages can -- and should -- contain healthy boundaries.
Starsky
Cadet,
I am reading that ^^ as either EA or PA. That is the strict definition of infidelity. In Susana's case, there's no OW.
Starsky,
Originally Posted By: susana4
I am still a bit confused by this tbh. Cadet, I know you explained to me awhile ago about infidelity existing, even in the mind. Which makes sense.
But in terms of setting a boundary it seems clear-cut if there's an OP: "I will not be in a marriage with a third party"
But it doesn't seem like you (I) can say: "I will not be in a marriage with an imaginary third party" Lol!
"I will not be in a marriage where my needs are not being met."
Here ^^^, while your LOVE for this person might be unconditional, you're saying that REMAINING IN A MARRIAGE WITH THEM, when your own needs are not being met, is a dealbreaker. It -- having your needs met -- IS a 'condition' of remaining in the marriage.
Is it a real dealbreaker? Marriages, as you know, go through cycles where there will be some dry spells and/or spouses may really dislike each other. Does that mean that one's needs are not being met in that scenario? Oh boy...a boundary has been broken! Let's call in the Hazmat team! C'mon.
It may mean a certain way to one person and for another person a whole different set of parameters. Mind you, I am not talking about EA or PAs here.
For instance, a wife knows that her H is a man of few words and given to rare displays of affection. She's, by all accounts, happily married and demonstrates complete acceptance of who her H is...not what he should be as a H. This woman has deliberately chosen to remain in the marriage knowing that not ALL of her needs will be met.
This is where one makes some trade-offs in an ever evolving M.
No?
If that's all it were, I would agree with you Wonka. I see Susana's needs (and sorry to talk past you like you're not here, Susana LOL) -- rightly or wrongly (and I'm on record as telling her if *I* were her husband, I would feel somewhat pressured/smothered/nothing's-good-enough) -- as being something her husband is some combination of unwilling or unable to provide.
And I see her husband as an emotionally immature, runs-from-commitment, guy who hasn't even BEGUN to do the work.
I've only come to know Susana recently, and only thru what she posts here. And everything we know about her husband is filtered thru the "Susana filter" as well. So is this just a rough patch they're going thru, and has her husband been able to meet her ENs earlier in the marriage and would she be truly happy with him if he'd return to that? I can't answer that. I was only saying that I think "Love is unconditional" is the kind of lead-with-your-feelings claptrap that wayward spouses feel, and it's not the underpinning of a healthy marriage. A healthy marriage is one where each LOVES each other unconditionally, but each has a healthy set of boundaries of what they are -- and are not -- willing to put up with in the marriage.
Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well.
Starsky
Starsky,
I can see where you're coming from.
To me, I think Susana's H is struggling with the transitions of a 'normal' marriage given that he's 28 years old.
I remember having a little wobble (way before my MLC) after Ms. Wonka and I moved in not realizing that it was a natural progression of a long-term marriage/partnership. I worked through it and recognized that we were experiencing a transition from being grad students to card-carrying working taxpayers (read, "I'm finally a real grown up!").
In this regard, I think that Susana needs to be her H's wingman and show him the way.
Yah...Susana is in the room while we talk around her while she lies prostate on the operating table.
Cadet,I am reading that ^^ as either EA or PA. That is the strict definition of infidelity. In Susana's case, there's no OW.
I totally understand that there is NO OW and my point exactly is that their still can be infidelity or betrayal, especially if he has said
ILYBINILWY, which is what I am assuming has happened in Susanna's case.
Personally my ex had no affair partner, so
even though she divorced me does that mean their was
no infidelity?
That was the ultimate breach of marital boundaries, JMHO!
^^^ this is the position I believe I'm in too. It definitely still feels like a betrayal. One could argue it's worse....there was no one in particular he wanted more than me...he just didn't want me.
Omg! I go away for dinner with a friend and look at all that happens to me on the operating table!
Let me try and clarify quickly a few things while I wait for the bill.
H never said ILYBINILWY. He said he's still in love with me, and still attracted to me, that he doesn't want to be with anyone else nor does he want me to. He just "doesn't feel like himself"
I do believe he met my ENs. Perhaps we were just still in the honeymoon stage so I'd think that but I do believe he did. I would happily return to my "old M" if it were a possibility. I know we are supposed to build a new M, with our spouse or with someone else, that's healthier, but I actually really loved my M. It was by far the best R I ever had. And I felt really loved and like my needs were met. I don't know if I met his!
Maybe I don't understand ENs but I think my primary LL are PT and QT. We had regular date nights and spent most weekends together. We tried new activities together a lot and went on holiday regularly. H was extremely affectionate and we ML regularly (and it was very good), held hands all the time, and cuddled every day. We touched each other a lot throughout the day in passing. It's only now I realise just how important PT is to me and I think more and more its my primary language. H was also very generous with WOA and very supportive of everything I wanted to try. We argued a lot more than we should have, over ridiculous things, like whose turn it was to make the coffee... I didn't think it was detrimental to our M because they were so small but now I wish i had been less argumentative.
For both partners, unconditional love means putting the health of the relationship above all else. This is a conscious decision made by both people, and it requires . . .
regular and open communication;
active and engaged listening skills;
a willingness to calmly express concerns or hurts;
a willingness to make behavior adjustments that don’t compromise your boundaries;
a willingness to communicate boundaries;
the ability to accept and even embrace personality differences that don’t compromise the health of the relationship;
a willingness to continue to work on your own self-awareness and self-esteem;
complete trust that your partner “has your back” and you have theirs;
the ability to forgive and forget, especially when forgiveness is requested for flaws and failures and there’s a real effort to make change;
the firm commitment never to withhold love (or sex or money, etc.) to get what you want or need;
the desire to express your love with small daily actions and words;
the decision to let go of the “small stuff” that might bug you so you can focus on the best aspects of your partner;
the willingness to show extra love and have patience with your partner when they go through periods of difficulty, sadness, or disconnection, knowing it’s a short-lived condition;
loving the other for the joy of loving, without thought for what you will get in return.
Unconditional love is more intricate and complicated than simply loving your partner “no matter what.” Unconditional love requires stepping back and seeing the bigger picture of your partnership and how to maintain the health of the relationship so that love can continue to thrive and grow.
The first step toward loving your partner unconditionally is learning to love yourself unconditionally. It requires understanding and communicating your own boundaries and limits, yet being flexible enough to adapt and compromise when possible.
And most of all, it requires a daily mutual commitment to maintaining the health of the relationship and nurturing the bonds of love that brought you together in the first place.
DeeDee,
That was a beautiful post. Do you have a link to your sitch?
Starsky
I had better stop thinking about Liam and cheese then
V
I can't for the life of me remember who recommended the Rendezvous video of driving a Ferrari through the streets of Paris but THANK YOU, you are brilliant!
It was me and you are welcome, it has been a while since I have been called brilliant. Inside most men is a little boy that likes loud noises and to drive fast.
I think you vacation is coming at a really good time for the both of you. You seem to be getting eager about your R and creating some expectations for your H. The time away should allow you to miss each other and get some time to clear your head.
I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in the DB process that we forget about all that life has to offer us. I was very guilty of this and put too much time and effort into saving my M instead of living life and also trying to save the M.
Have a great time in Romania.
Gogofo this got lost in all the conversation over my operating table.
But I wanted to say thank you! And I should have known it was you, since you seem to be inside my H's head sometimes.
I think you're right about the vacation coming at the right time. I am really looking forward to the chance to get away from everything, relax and clear my mind. Not that I can't do that here, but I think it will be a heck of a lot easier in a completely new place on my own.
Vanilla who is this Liam bloke???
Like Starsky said, thanks sharing your thoughts Dee, that was lovely
I just wanted to say I can relate to having an H that feels nothing he ever did was good enough for me.
One of his biggest complaints during BD (when we did talk). Looking back I didn't praise enough. I'm not sure where you are in your sitch but some advice I was given to specifically use the word 'I appreciate ..'
Starsky,
I can see where you're coming from.
To me, I think Susana's H is struggling with the transitions of a 'normal' marriage given that he's 28 years old.
I remember having a little wobble (way before my MLC) after Ms. Wonka and I moved in not realizing that it was a natural progression of a long-term marriage/partnership. I worked through it and recognized that we were experiencing a transition from being grad students to card-carrying working taxpayers (read, "I'm finally a real grown up!").
In this regard, I think that Susana needs to be her H's wingman and show him the way.
Yah...Susana is in the room while we talk around her while she lies prostate on the operating table.
Fwiw, I could be completely wrong here because I'm not in H's head...but I think Wonka's on the money. I think he is going through a panic because he realised "omg I am a real grown up now" - this is just based on some of what he said post BD, and how he has been talking for a few months about how he "can't believe he's an adult", he's so scared to turn 30 etc.
This is in line with what my BD coach thought, along with a possible fear of abandonment and not being good enough which may have led him to jump ship before he could be abandoned.
Wonka, just curious here, how long was it after you and Ms Wonka moved in? And what got you through it?
I just wanted to say I can relate to having an H that feels nothing he ever did was good enough for me.
One of his biggest complaints during BD (when we did talk). Looking back I didn't praise enough. I'm not sure where you are in your sitch but some advice I was given to specifically use the word 'I appreciate ..'
Thanks T0 for stopping by and for the advice!
I read through your sitch recently because someone (I can't remember who - my mind is totally blanking on everything today!) mentioned seeing some similarities.
That's good advice. I've been trying to thank and praise H more on advice of my coach. I haven't intentionally used those words specifically so that's good to know, I will try to incorporate 'I appreciate..'.
But did you recently as H to return to the room and he didn't? And you're 100% sure there is no OW?
You just have to be careful where you are in your sitch. I am a big believer in backing off and letting them see life without you so I don't want to give you the wrong advice. You have some great posters here and I'm sure you're being led in the right direction.
There is a fine line between being appreciative and smothering. I didn't pursue H beyond saying I appreciate you making my car payment. He would say no problem and I wouldn't iniate a response beyond that. So long story short you can be appreciative without pursuing , hey I appreciate that.. Continue about what you're doing
Hi T0, yes I did ask him to return to the bed the other day and he said he "shouldn't". I am 99.99% certain there is no OW. I have looked as much as I can...I don't have access to his phone bill or phone (they belong to work) and he's in IT so his computer is pretty well locked down but he left it open accidentally one day so I had a look. He also has all his texts on his computer so I managed to look at texts too. He's not secretive with his phone and leaves it out all the time, I just don't have the password (we never have shared phone passwords) but I look over his shoulder sometimes.
Thanks. I was thinking of saying "I appreciate" in terms of household stuff, which I've been saying thank you for lately, like:
-taking out the trash
-doing my laundry
-cleaning the kitchen
-paying electric bill
Never really thanked him for these before. Does that seem ok?
Vanilla who is this Liam bloke???
Neesen of course but he might be taken or perhaps he is running
Maybe I do prefer cheese after all, there is more choice and when that goes runny or blue and veiny it tastes good!
With biscuits........
Or maybe I should just enjoy a good Wensleydale with chutney instead?
V
Susana,
Wonka, just curious here, how long was it after you and Ms Wonka moved in? And what got you through it?
Please allow me to give you a bit background so you'll understand the backstory clearly.
I am a child of divorce. My father and stepmother divorced when I was aged 11 and it had a very traumatic effect on me. For a long time, I was commitment-phobic. In my teen years and throughout college, I had several one-night stands, dated, and longest "relationship" was a not healthy one for 2 years during college. That gal was deeply disturbed and did really scary stuff.
Ms. Wonka and I knew each other very, very casually during college. It was not until we entered grad school that we got to know each other better and I asked her out (I was a nervous wreck!). From the very onset, I knew she was special and "The One" for me. We started dating in the late Fall.
Ms. Wonka broached the subject of moving in together one bright Spring day in the following year. I nearly choked upon hearing her words. Ms. Wonka was very sweet and patient with me by walking through my own fears...incredibly gentle and neutral. We moved in together that Summer.
I was 27 and Ms. Wonka was 24.
Does that answer your question?
Thanks for sharing Wonka.
I'm sorry about your parents divorce, that must have been hard.
If you don't mind answering more questions (feel free to ignore me if you do), what do you think brought about the "wobble" you mentioned you had after you and Ms W moved in together and how did you steady yourself again?
I'm off to romania tomorrow!! So excited
H and I had a tender moment tonight...came at the expensive of my feet though!
There was a slippery spot on the living room floor and I had a bambi moment...my legs went out from under me completely, my foot crashed into the wall, I stubbed ALL my toes and I landed with a huge crash on my bum.
As I sat there blinking in shock and pain, H rushed over, kneeled behind me and wrapped his arms around me. He sat there with me, holding me and stroking my hair, for a good three or four minutes until I felt better and then he helped me to the sofa and held me a minute longer.
It was quite sweet. I think it's not a bad last moment to leave on for my trip (well, apart from my poor toes, that is).
He has also opened up about his feelings to me every day since Monday (Vanilla, the speakers are connected and just like you said now they are on they just keep playing!).
But mainly today I am happy because I'm excited for my trip. I have booked a place to stay for a few nights but after that I don't know where I'll be...will just wing it as I go and I am excited for the adventure
Susana,
Awww...Bambi and Thumper together. Hope your bum is recovered by now..
If you don't mind answering more questions (feel free to ignore me if you do), what do you think brought about the "wobble" you mentioned you had after you and Ms W moved in together and how did you steady yourself again?
I came to terms with my parents' D after having several talks with my late father about it and I have pretty much come to a full circle. And completely out of my MLC! Thank goodness.
In looking back, the wobbles came during our first year living together. Period of adjustment...ya know. How did I steady myself? That's a good question. I'd like to think that Ms. Wonka had a big hand in it too for she is an incredibly even-keeled person who fought fair...no ugly or drawn-out fights. Somehow we managed to pull through the first-year wobbles.
Bon Voyage!!
Enjoy Romania! Live it up! Pura Vida!
Susana,
Awww...Bambi and Thumper together. Hope your bum is recovered by now..
If you don't mind answering more questions (feel free to ignore me if you do), what do you think brought about the "wobble" you mentioned you had after you and Ms W moved in together and how did you steady yourself again?
I came to terms with my parents' D after having several talks with my late father about it and I have pretty much come to a full circle. And completely out of my MLC! Thank goodness.
In looking back, the wobbles came during our first year living together. Period of adjustment...ya know. How did I steady myself? That's a good question. I'd like to think that Ms. Wonka had a big hand in it too for she is an incredibly even-keeled person who fought fair...no ugly or drawn-out fights. Somehow we managed to pull through the first-year wobbles.
Bon Voyage!!
Thanks Wonka!! My bum is mostly better
Thanks for answering my questions. I was curious what it felt like for you and how you stabilised, I could be completely wrong but I think it's what my H is going through (perhaps along with some fears of not being good enough). I probably have not been even-keeled in the past but I am a lot more now.
Thanks mahhhty!
I hope the sit upon can take the journey.
I am curious about Romania, it's cheeeese and wine.
I believe the scenery is gorgeous. The occasional post would be good.....
V
Thanks V. I'm trying to limit my internet time (just because I like to occasionally unplug :)) but I will check in here and there
Romania is beautiful! Took a train through the Carpathian Mountains today...Wow. Stunning. The architecture is amazing too. Will go see a castle tomorrow and then I'll be staying in a medieval citadel!
Have been journaling a lot on the train. It's felt really good.
Yay. Enjoy your time. Travelling is the best.
The more you travel, the less you know!
I hope there are windows!
V
I wish this forum could do pictures - sounds like an amazing trip. Hope you have a great time and enjoy your fab self.
I wish I could share pictures of all the beautiful things I've seen.
If you google "bran castle" you'll see where I was yesterday. Also "sighisoara", it's a fortress town I visited. Stunning!
I have been sleeping 12 hours a night. Think I'm catching up on all the sleep I've lost these past few months. I have dreamed of H every night on my trip and mornings are a little hard, but otherwise I feel more peaceful than I have in months.
I love travel, because it always makes me feel like myself again. Like it strips back all the layers and leaves just the core of who I am.
H texted yesterday, asking if I was having fun and finding good food, and also asking when I was getting back (he claimed I didn't tell him). Ha! I definitely told him (because I distinctly recall him asking which day I'd be back) but also he has a copy of my plane tickets/boarding pass in his email because he printed them for me. Don't know if he is really out of it or it was just a pretext to text me.
I think this trip is the most healing thing I've done since BD.
Whatever happens, the world is waiting for me to explore it, with or without H.
I was in Romania almost 20 years ago and I remember having a moment of grace, in the front seat of a bus, going through Transylvania and watching the winter landscape while listening to Songs of Distant Earth by Mike Oldfield. It was beautiful, hilly and curvy. I'm so glad the mad driver didn't kill us all.
COOL
Commonly known as "Dracula's Castle" !!
near Transylvania!
Susana, I am so glad you're enjoying yourself. You deserve it!!!!
Enjoy it! Live it up! And tell us more fun things to Google, so we can live vicariously through your travels!
Susana dear, I've been off-and-on here lately because my computer is being a bit of a pain, and I've grown to hate typing from my phone. But I'm looking for a more recent update from you and can't find one. I know you were on a trip (which sounded amazing), but I'm checking in with you now to see how you are. Let us know. And if you have updated somewhere else and I have missed it, let me know! xo
I'm a bit worried too. Are you ok Susanna??
Eirinn, I'm glad you posted that - Ive also been thinking about you Susana.
I hope things are okay, and please post an update when you can...
T x
Edit - she has not been on the forum since 3/24/15 - Cadet
Maybe she'll come running back here if we bribe her with a homemade creme brulee!??
Maybe she'll come running back here if we bribe her with a homemade creme brulee!??
Wonka, that sounds great to me!
Susana, you are in our thoughts. If you get a chance to post, please do.
Thank you!
Bob
Susana?
Worried from UK here
V
Ah Susana4, the life of the party for a few weeks, and then MIA. Hope she'll come back to at least tell us how her sitch went - LBS love closure!
Anyone heard of a missing Brit in Romania last month??
