New thread. Titled it Journey for three reasons.
1. Reminder to don't miss out on the journey you and I are going through. The last three years have been the best and worst years of my life. Lost my dad and my wife, but gained a daughter and more knowledge about my self than the previous 27 years combined. If I'd numbed the pain or ran from it, maybe I could have lessened the suffering but I also would have missed out on the joy. Probably would have prolonged a milder misery, though, for a long time. I've seen those people in my life and have known from the beginning I didn't want that to be me.
2.) I just finished a personal record of a solo road trip.
3.) I've been listening to Journey lately - I have a Journey kick about once a year for 2-3 days. I think I'm reaching the end of this run, though...
From the end of my previous thread, rppfl:
TO is in South Florida as well, but I'm not sure where. I've made it pretty obvious I'm in Miami. Although there are approximately 2 million other people here, too. Anyway, maybe we saw each other and just didn't know it, Card.
I'm sure we did! Your city is amazing. I had one of those moments of pure joy, where it felt like I was floating, when I walked onto the boardwalk at 41st street. I'd been driving for most of the previous 24 hours. I'd just seen the reports of how much snow Lousiville got, and that 200 semis were stuck on the interstate that I'd driven on the previous day. I felt so lucky, the trip felt so perfectly time, almost destined. It was 88 degrees, about 70 degrees warmer than Louisville. And that was also the moment I realized that the turquoise water you see from pictures of Miami is not photoshopped like many other Florida beaches. I was dressed in my running clothes, head phones in, and I started jogging down the boardwalk. Then I jogged a little on the beach, which was practically empty. It was just perfect. So good, in fact, that I sent myself a diary e-mail later just to capture the details.
I'm actually in a small beach town below Jacksonville
one way in and one way out up until recently. Now there is tons of expansion going on... Not to mention bike week right now. Miami is about 2.5 hours from us
Card - glad to hear you're doing well
I hate to see small beach towns turned into metropolises. We already have enough of those. I hope they outlaw highrises in the Keys.
Have you lived in that town your whole life?
I know! Actually no - I grew up in a small suburb outside of Orlando. When my parents divorced my brother wanted to stay with my mom to not switch high schools. I didn't want my dad to live alone so I finished out my senior year in the new school. I ended up meeting H shortly after and we bought a home here so I've been here since I was 17. I love it. I commute to Orlando which is a little over an hour (with no traffic). It's not ideal but I couldn't imagine not living here.
We have a main road that you enter from that was all trees that they have now made four lanes and are now filling it with car dealerships, walmart, Home Depot, etc. I Hate it. They just allowed the first chain hotel on the beach so I know it's all downhill from there. Beachside has no chain restaurants or fast food places. It's all local places. People were/are pretty upset about that. I guess the only upside is at least my house will go up in value lol
It definitely will. My in-laws had a lagoon-front property in Gulf Shores for decades. They loved it, friends and family used it year round. They never had too much incentive to sell it. Gulf Shores began exploding in the late 90's, though. Now it's pretty much Destin-west. Couple dozen high-rise hotels, chain restaurants on every corner. Some of the old places are still there, but they're not the same now that a 40-story hotel is casting a shadow on it. Anyway, the bright side for my in-laws is that their house value quadrupled and they made a bunch of money. But if you ask me, it wasn't worth it. There have been almost no family gatherings since they sold it three years ago. They all live all over the country in relatively boring places, and no one seems to want to convene at any of those locations.
I'm sure your town still has its charm! I still like Gulf Shores even after it was corporatized. You still live next to the beach, after all!
WAW news - I spoke with her lawyer today. I'm about to sign the waiver that says I acknowledge that she filed, that I don't need to be served. I asked her what she expects the timeline to be for us. She said since we have a minor, even though we're getting along, there is a minimum 60-day wait period of some kind, even though we're getting along. I've heard the 60-day thing mentioned here, but I don't know much about it. Is there mandatory counseling or something involved?
WAW has been texting me late at night the last couple of nights, just things a friend would text a friend. Things I'm fine with. She's had trouble sleeping, so she's been watching The Office late at night, which we used to watch together. She has been quizzing me on the episodes she's watching. I woke up this morning to a text she sent earlier, at 3 am. I asked if she was okay, because it was so abnormal for her sleep habits to be like that. She said she had a flight to catch early this morning and was just paranoid that she was going to sleep too late.
I am probably the odd one out here and can be a bit of a B. I totally get you wanting to have a R with WAW for your daughter BUT stop fulfilling her needs of your friendship. You can have a great relationship and not be responding to texts on a nightly basis, that aren't about your daighter, especially at 3am. She needs to live her life without you.
Personally, and I am not a vet, I would not be engaging in friendly texts back and forth. I get that you're ready to move forward so maybe my advice is wrong. I just see it as feeding into her.
Sorry Card - I know I'm always on you about pursuing her. Are your responses indifferent or would she think you are hanging on her every word.
Aren't you busy out GAL and you don't check your phone that often
Sent my notarized waiver of summons, or whatever, back to her L. Basically saying I don't need to be served D papers, that I'm aware she's filing.
I'm debating whether I should consult with a L once the final paperwork is drafted. We have nothing left to squabble over. As long as she doesn't try to fool me and rip me off somehow, neither of us are contending what the other is saying.
Board thoughts? Of course I want to make sure I get all of the time and rights over D2 that we're verybally agreeing to, but I'd also like to save $500 or whatever if it's not that big of a risk. I really don't think WAW would try to screw me over. She just doesn't want to be M to me - she doesn't hate me, never has, and loves me as a dad. Maybe that's naive thinking, though, and I just need to spend the money to be sure. We'll see how it feels when it gets to that point.
Be prepared for the worst. Hope for the best but divorce usually brings our the worst in people. It's just a hard process. It's the end of dreams, families, aspirations, emotions, a lot of stuff gets stirred up.
I cant tell you how many times I have heard folks say "My wife/husband would never do that" and they do. All the time.
Did you expect your wife to have a PA? No, but she did.
Voice of doom I know but protect yourself.
Card - Your W may very well have no intention of hurting you. But in this case you are not only trusting her - you are trusting the competence of her lawyer who might make errors that have a negative effect on you. Get a second opinion from your lawyer.
I handled most of the formalities but his lawyer made lots of mistakes (most of which were actually in my favor) and I had to make sure things like who gets to claim the kids on the taxes were covered.
I still had a lawyer review.
Its $500 well spent. Not the place to pinch pennies.
Yep, Freddy, I agree with the others, especially as there is a young child involved. Dont want you to look back, and think..why didnt I do that.
You are responsible for protecting yourself and your child.
Perspective is clear now. That's why I love you guys! This isn't how to save $500 while on vacation
I've been thinking of the folks on here that are really struggling, whether they're new or have been around for a while. I know it's the worst pain you've ever felt, but I promise it will get better. Listen to the wisdom here and try to breathe.
Latest news, regarding WAW, BigD, D2, and other tidbits:
- I believe WAW's L filed the petition today. I will visit an old neighbor who went through this 10 years ago to get his L contact info. I'll only use him/her to make sure I'm not getting swindled. Not fighting going on with WAW.
- We decided how we will file taxes this year (married, jointly).
- We also decided how we'll handle D2's dependency (tax-wise) going forward. We decided on alternating each year, starting with 2015's taxes. I'll claim her next year.
- We agreed to meet each other's BF/GF's if we are getting serious with them, as in they're starting to spend a lot of time around D2. She brought that up and I'm not sure why. Like if I think her BF is a jerk, she'll dump him? I'm not bringing that up again. If she or I are with someone for an extended period of time, I'm sure we'll meet (bday party, whatever)
- I have realized that I am no good at telling age right now. I met a girl through my other sister, unintentionally. I met her while we were all out. I wasn't even going to approach her but she friended me on FB later. We started talking for a few days. Then found out she's 19. Whoops! That was a few weeks ago. We've become friends since then, as she already knew both of my sisters through their school. Obviously not going down that path with her, though.
- It feels good to get back to more mundane problems than I had for all of those months. Right now my biggest struggle are nagging injuries. 2 months with a bad wrist now, and I tweaked my back 4 days ago.
1. Reminder to don't miss out on the journey you and I are going through. The last three years have been the best and worst years of my life. Lost my dad and my wife, but gained a daughter and more knowledge about my self than the previous 27 years combined. If I'd numbed the pain or ran from it, maybe I could have lessened the suffering but I also would have missed out on the joy. Probably would have prolonged a milder misery, though, for a long time. I've seen those people in my life and have known from the beginning I didn't want that to be me.
Just wanted you to know that this is quite inspirational. Focusing on the positive and showing gratitude. awesome!
3.) I've been listening to Journey lately - I have a Journey kick about once a year for 2-3 days. I think I'm reaching the end of this run, though...
If you have a specific song that you find inspirational, anthemic, or just feel-good for those in similar sitchs, please post to
my new thread. I have been putting together a loose collection of songs that resonate with me and there are definitely songs that have been getting me through the rough days. You can see some of my choices in
my old thread (last pages).
RAI
Thanks for the thoughts, RAI, and thanks for pointing me to that thread!
So one of my worries about the apartment came to fruition last night. My dog has very high anxiety. She used to cry and howl when we'd leave her. She's 4 now, and she's quite a bit more calm. But whenever she was in new environments (my mom's basement, WAW's apt), she had an adjustment period of crying when left before she became comfortable there. I knew this was coming with my apartment.
Last night was her first night with me since I moved in. After I'd been home with her for 2-3 hours after work, I tried to go out for St Paddy's. Fail. She start crying, barking, howling. And I know when she starts the howling, it will go on for hours. This was 9 pm already. The walls to the other apt's are paper thin, probably my biggest complaint about the place. I mean, you can hear every word of every conversation if you're so inclined. So the poor people trying to sleep on a Tuesday would have heard howling for hours in the middle of the night.
Obviously I couldn't do that, so I went back inside and just watched TV with her chilling at my side. And I dropped her off at my mom's house this morning, just to try to taper the transition a little more. At some point I'll have to bite the bullet and let her adjust.
Tonight is my first night in the apt with D2 and the pup.
Had a pretty transparent convo with WAW today. She told me she was used by her OM. It hurt to hear that she went through that, but also, damn it was her cheating on me. I just told her that I am truly sorry that she was made to feel like that. She told me, "I've learned a lot about me the last year, a lot of it bad." I told her its great that she learned what is wrong, because that is the first step in making changes. She was finally receptive to hearing about the books I've read. I told her about them in the context of helping and changing herself, not attempting reconciliation. She is going to read HNHN and DR.
She asked about my dating situation, if they are Christians. I told her some things but not all.
She told me that her sister is meeting her BF this coming weekend. Good luck to them, because SIL can't be downright crazy if she doesn't like you. She always loved me. Even now she is texting me hoping we're going to reconcile. She's also trying to set me up with her friends, even though her and all of them live 3 hrs away. This guy could be the greatest guy in the world and it wouldn't matter if she doesn't want to like him. Could get ugly. I'll be nowhere near it, though, so not my worry. I just told WAW "good luck". She understood and laughed
just checking in, Freddy... you are sounding good. I'm glad.
A very deep conversation yesterday with WAW. So I'm picking up D2 from school when WAW texts me picture of a tattoo. A script word on the side of a girl, across the rib cage under her left arm. I immediately thought it was WAW, but couldn't believe it. You couldn't see her face, she's lost 40 pounds since when we were together, and I haven't seen her with her shirt off in quite a while (don't worry, she was decent in the picture, I just mean I haven't seen her tummy in a while). I denied that it was her because she is the last person of anyone I've ever met that I would expect to get a tattoo. But it was her.
So I google the word (it was not in english) and it's the French word for "love". My first thoughts (which I didn't share) were, "You really think this is a good time for you to get a tattoo, in this crisis?" and "Wow, the French word for love seems a little inappropriate considering you started your A in Paris." Then she texted me a picture of her right side, and she also has the French word for "light".
I just texted, "??? Wow"
But then she told me about how bad it really got with her depression in the summer/fall. Apparently she made a feeble attempt at suicide at one point. It killed me to hear that. I had always feared it. And there were a couple of days where she didn't answer a text for like 48 hrs and I wondered if she was laying in her bed, OD'd on something. Since then, I'd presumed my fears were unreasonable, but apparently not.
She told me that a couple of the nights that she texted with me for a long time in the fall, until like 2 or 3 in the morning, she did it because she didn't know where else to turn those nights. I had no idea - I was just making her laugh with quotes from Parks & Rec, The Office, Jim Gaffigan, etc.
This goes to show you why mindreading is a pointless exercise - I was trying to read those conversations for signs that she might be reconsidering our M, and in reality she was trying to avoid killing herself.
She said she got the tattoos, which she's thought about for a few months, because she decided she doesn't want to consider suicide an option ever again, and these are reminders for her. I of course was extremely supportive once I heard all of this. I told her I'm happy I helped, and that regardless of what happens with either of us, I'll always be there if she needs an ear. And I said, "Glad you're deciding to stick around
"
Then I started making her laugh. First by complimenting her bra, which is visible in the pictures, and remarking that I find it funny that it's inappropriate for me to make that comment now that she's in another relationship. She said, "you're making me laugh, stop! my sides are really sore". I proceeded to text her her favorite sitcom quotes that almost always make her laugh.
Things have been good, confusing, nerve racking. Normally good. But my head is spinning a little right now. I'm now actually okay talking to WAW about a problem with her BF. That wasn't the case even a week ago. So that's new.
I have the D papers but I still haven't opened the envelope. I'm trying to contact my old neighbor to get his L contact info. And of course I'll open them soon, I just haven't got around to it. I've had them for 3-4 days. I wouldn't be that stressed about it if my mom wasn't asking me about it everyday. She still thinks WAW is going to try to screw me and take D2. I really don't think that's going to happen, but I'm also not going to trust that it won't happen. But a little stressed from that (it's a D, after all...)
I'm settling nicely into the apartment except that my dog is still having separation anxiety. She has scratched up the door a little already. So, some stress from that. But the apt, especially with this awesome weather, is amazing. Multiple windows in all 5 rooms. I've had them wide open, a fresh breeze blowing throughout the entire place. Trying to focus on that as opposed to worrying if my dog is howling when she's home alone all day.
I've been casual friends with the 19 yr old for a few weeks, and then suddenly it got weird and complicated a couple days ago. No in-person meetings, but now I realize that she doesn't just want to be friends. So I'm peeling back from that situation. Hopefully down the road it can smooth out and she'll realize that I really, really don't have any intention of dating someone anywhere near her age and be okay again. She's already friends with both of my sisters, so I'm sure I'll see her around. But it's more stress
I'm getting D2 for the first time in a few days this afternoon, and I don't have anything for her to eat at home. Stress!
I'm also having my most stressful week at work since starting my new position.
I guess I'm just spilling all of this out there so I can step back and see that all of this will pass, and to find something else to focus on.
Had the date(?) with sis's friend last night. It was really fun. Nothing is starting with us, at least right now. She straight up said she's not looking for a committed relationship. She told me about all of the dates she's had so far. Not sure how to read that (friendzoning??) so I'll pull some DB advice and *not* mind read haha
Hello Card29,
I realize I've been silent for several weeks but I'm always excited to see your thread come up to the top.
The tattoo tells me that your W is in an open space at the moment, looking for herself. I know this is how I feel too, experimenting with things that I never thought would be in my life or part of me, and not knowing what will stick. I can even say that I've considered a tattoo, which is really weird if you knew me. I was talking to a social worker this week with experience with martial counseling and she was saying that the person who changes the most after an S is the one who remains single. In that sense, it's too bad that your W has found a bf (I understand correctly?) because she sounds like she has work to do.
By the way, it's great to see yet another example of why mindreading is pointless. We have really no idea of what's going on on the other side and we tend to make things much worse than they are.
I'd like to recommend a new book to you because I remember how much pursuing you were doing and I think that it's hard-wired in you when you're interested in someone, that if you're not pursuing WW right now, it's because you're detached. The book is "Models: Attract Women Through Honesty". I'd dare say that it's the dating version of NMMNG. It's not a pick-up artist book. The general gist is that you'll attract women if you're honest with yourself and with them. The first part talks about what attracts women and it's really in line with DR too. There's also a section that's more practical about avoiding the friendzoning. That's actually what made me think of the book when I read your update.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely check it out. I feel like I'm on the same page as many other guys here. Not looking to become a pick-up artist, just more attractive as a man.
Regarding WAW's current R. I'm not telling her this but I give it like 5% chance. She hasn't been single for more than a couple of weeks in over 11 years. I do think she's tried to do some work, she has been going regularly to therapy. But she is still in crisis mode. And it's not super smooth with this guy. He has 3 kids, so scheduling is hard. They've only been together for 6 weeks, but that is with 1 break-up and another almost break-up last week. If she confides with me again about serious problems in her R, I'm just going to tell her that I think the best thing for her is to be single for a few months and focus on herself.
Hey Freddy. No matter how prepared we think we are, when we get the papers it still throws us some. Just something to work through and you will.
Good call on the 19 year old...just sayin.
.
As far as your wife, she is still spinning. She is still trying to find the thing that is going to make her feel better. But that's not going to happen until she looks within and does the work. But none of that is in your control, right?
Oh and about telling her she should be single? Yea, not your place, nor your problem, ya know? She's got to figure it out on her own. You have to let her.
Just keeping it real...cuz I care about you.
Please continue to keep it real, uR! I was thinking about my "I'm going to tell her she should be single" comment and was already thinking better of it.
Nothing major going on with me right now. My college/friend/roommate just got back from Europe. He'll be my roommate for the next 4-5 months. His wife will join us in mid-May. We're all in a 2 bedroom apartment. I think we'll fit, though. They are minimalists (actually, they're just European) and I am striving to get to that point. I'm realizing that "more stuff" means "less room, more to clean/organize" rather than "happier". We're all also very easy going and flexible. It should work.
Nothing extremely notable on the dating front. Life is generally good right now.
Tomorrow will be a weird groundbreaking moment. I'll be staying at WAW's apt, alone with D2 and our dog, while she's out of town. She's giving me a key to her place tonight.
Long story short: We split custody of our dog. She has anxiety around strange men, and my roommate just moved back in. I want to try to ease the transition for everyone, so I want to avoid having the dog over for at least a couple weeks when he's back. She's out of town tomorrow night and couldn't find a good kennel that wasn't full. So the easiest solution for every party was for me to stay there (D2 already has her room, dog will already be there and I can just leave her there Wed morning when I go to work).
Hey Freddy...how are you doing?
I am excellent, thank you for asking, uR! I'm amazed at how far I've come in 9 months and even the last 4 months. I couldn't even breathe last summer, and I still had nights of misery in December. Those days are long since last.
I've been thinking about a couple of things lately that I learned from here. I'm realizing that they aren't specifically DB tips, but ways to live every day:
- Don't want what you can't have.
- Listen/validate. I realized that very similar advice is in the happiest toddler on the block. It is important with coworkers, on dates, etc. It should just be part of life
I'm not vigorously pursuing dating, although some things have been happening organically. Nothing serious, all so much fun. The thing with sis's friend is still kind of out there. She's still not ready, I think. And I suspect she might move away. My sis (her best friend) is a traveling nurse. She's on a rotation in San Diego and they're (sis and BIL) in love with it. They're going to stay there semi permanently. Sis's friend is visiting in a month and we all already know she's going to love it. She doesn't have a lot of strings tying her down here. But we'll see what happens. I've had the feeling she's not totally interested in me - but then when sis and BIL were in town over the weekend, we all went out. End of the night, BIL (who has known sis's friend for years) drove her home. He knows I'm into her (and she does too). They apparently had a talk, even though she was many drinks into the night, and her hesitation with me hasn't been lack of attraction but a fear of hurting her friendship with sis. I respect that, even though I don't think it could go bad enough to upset it (I easily forgave WAW, and she has no bitterness in her). But I'm not anxious about it. I still don't think she's ready, so I'm not pursuing her at the moment. I want to see what happens with her SD trip and how she feels after that. Is most of the way across the country and I don't want something with me clouding her decisions.
A couple of interesting things with WAW lately.
I met her BF. They've been together 2 months and has been spending more and more time at WAW's apt, overnight I'm sure. Since he's around D2 so much, it was time to meet him. I was very calm and even friendly. Meant it genuinely. I didn't have an ounce of animosity. He was nervous as heck, so was WAW. Found that funny. The next day, WAW complimented my attitude. Not the first time she's remarked about it the last month or so
Earlier this week she invited me to dinner (for last night). I figured it was a "keep the peace" and "hang out with D2" kind of thing. Turns out she is extremely lonely. She hinted at that earlier in the week when she said she was jealous of my large extended family in town (the same family she exiled from our house for the last 7 years...but anyway). Besides her BF she literally has no one she's close to in our city anymore. Her 4 best friends all moved away in the last 3 years. No family here. Turns out that's what the dinner was about. I got there, bringing half of the dinner. Ate. We were just kind of sitting around afterwards, and I was extremely tired. Said I was probably going to head home. She was really disappointed, saying, "I was hoping you were going to hangout. I've really missed our friendship. I know I screwed it up, but I just miss it, you know?" Her BF is in China on business. I don't know if that's a coincidence with the dinner invite, or what. I hung out for a while and talked to her about what was going on with her. Apparently her newest somewhat close friend is now moving away, too. That's only part of it though. I feel bad for her but know I can't fix it. I encouraged her to join a small group at her church. That's where we met the best friends we had from 2006-2011.
Thank you for the update. I look forward to them. I'm impressed you met the BF. For me, in some seven months I haven't met OM and he's never even mentioned, not even obliquely. You say he's around D2 but what does it change if you meet him? What can you do about it?
I'm also very interested in your WW loneliness because mine is in the same situation or even worse. We are in my home country so it's all my family and friends here. She had colleagues she liked when she left me but she said herself that they had since left their jobs. Like yours, my WW is pretty much left alone with her OM in a foreign town. He's also an immigrant so network there.
As for the dating, anything else happening that you're not telling us?
I agree about "what can I do about it" with BF. I just felt like if anything, at least he knows that D2's dad cares enough about her to do that. Mainly, we had almost met a couple of times, like during drop offs or pickups, and WAW had to come out to the car or whatever. This was at least a known, controlled meet so it would make future D2 activities more normal
Other dating stuff...a couple of girls with 1 or 2 dates. the main thing has been trying to make the right decisions with sis's friend. One thing I've left out is that she is staggeringly beautiful. Of course I'm attracted to her, but it's her personality and her dreams that I love about her. She wants almost exactly what I want in life. But I left out her attractiveness because when my sister was first nudging me towards her, I was just breaking out of my insecurities of the WAW split. I am not terrible looking, but definitely not on par with her. So it's really pushed me out of my comfort zone, in a good way, to actually ask her out on dates. Helps that she's said yes a couple of times.
Because of all of that, though, I feel amazing now, regardless of what happens with her. Not amazing about how I look, il since that hasn't changed. Just feels great to be comfortable being myself. I'll be really bummed if she moves to SD, but I'll survive
Hey Freddy...I am over here smiling.
First of all, I think it was great that you met the BF. Good on you for wanting to meet someone who is going to be around your child a lot. You handled it with dignity and class. So proud of you.
Here's an inside secret. We women arent all about the looks.
I can totally understand how your sister's friend feels. Her friendship with your sis is really important to her. While you may think that if something goes wrong it wont affect the frienship, there is no guarantee. So, she is being very careful.
I think you have a great handle on how you are approaching it with her.
As far as your xw, she is starting to realize that the grass isnt greener...thats a sad thing for her. I love your compassion regarding what she is going through.
I am so freakin proud of you, sweetie. You are doing wonderfully.
Keep going. I will be over here...rooting you on.
You are so right about XW having reality hit her. So many DB prophesies have come true, even lately. She even seems to be grasping back to me as she realizes I'm truly moving on. Proves the point of "don't promise your WAW that you're not dating", even if you aren't. That doubt works in your favor. In my case, I wouldn't take WAW back if she asked now. But many here would, so I thought id share that observation. I really hope and pray for her sake that she can make a couple of new, close, local friends, and that they are here as long as she is. She did just have a weekend in Chicago with one of her best friends, and I'm sure she had fun.
Btw, I just had an amazing weekend with sis's friend. I didn't even know I'd see her until Friday afternoon when she texted me, then we ended up spending all day Saturday and most of Sunday together. No, not overnight Saturday haha. She was babysitting 5 and 1-yr-old boys. We doubled teamed them and D2, took them to some fun events.
After all of the kids except D2 were asleep Saturday, I surprised her with a kiss. Previously we had only been friendly, although I'm sure she knew I was into her. It was really fun to surprise her. After it she just smiled big but said "its hard, I'm just afraid of what might happen if it doesn't work." I told her that I understand, I completely respect her friendship with my sister, and that we could talk about it more. She agreed. She said, "Seriously, your sister is my soul mate." Then she had an amazing line. We'd been watching a local fireworks show on TV, but she stepped away to the kitchen during it. That's when I walked in behind her and kissed her. Didn't want to kiss her in front of D2. When we came back I said, "Aww it's over, we missed the grand finale." She said, "yeah but we made our own." !!!
Who knows what the future holds. This weekend was simply amazing, and that's enough for now
Last night was a big night for me and sis' friend. After I kissed her a couple of weeks ago, we decided that we needed to talk. She mentioned her reservations of dating her best friend's brother (the fear of what would happen if it didn't work) and also a mild reservation about maybe being a step-mom, something she'd never considered before. We were both really busy that last 1-1/2 weeks, so we finally had dinner last night and put everything out there.
After further thought, she is no longer that concerned about "if" it didn't work, because she knows how I handled my divorce, and she's never had animosity for her exes, either. "We are both adults" were her words. I agreed. She also said she would even be excited to be a step-mom for D2. Her only concern was what D2 would call her, haha! She wouldn't be "mom" but she also doesn't want to be "first name" or "Ms. First Name". So obviously we laughed at that, not a real objection.
The only reservation she has is the exact same one I have right now - that she is not ready yet. We are on the same page on everything, not only with what we want in life, our personalities, parenting styles (I learned that during our weekend together with the 3 kids, 2 of which she was baby sitting). And we also are on the same page that now is not the time to really start dating. We both want to keep hanging out as "friends for now" as we have been. She mentioned that she didn't want to enter the "friendzone" though.
But I finally know what I've always hoped and then suspected - that she sees how we fit, she does want it to work between us, she is excited about the possibility of her best friend being her SIL, etc. We ended the night with a simple hug. I'll see her Saturday as she's hosting a house warming party.
She also revealed a lot about the end of her R with her ex. I suspected that she had an A at the end of it (although I never asked her about it), and she confirmed that she did. She was telling me in case it made me see her in a different light and didn't want to be involved with "someone like that". She is amazingly open like that. I smiled and dropped some DB knowledge on her - that any one of us is capable of it, and I don't judge her for a second, just like I don't judge my STBXW. I even told her about the EA I had a couple of years ago, in the darkest part of our M from my perspective, and that if that woman hadn't moved out of state, who knows what would have happened.
STBX news, I saw her and her BF yesterday for the second time. Dropping off D2. STBX is taking her to Florida today to visit family. Incident-free
Thanks for the update, as always. So your take on people who leave their relationship (was sis' friend married?) for an A is that it can happen to anyone and you don't judge? I'm surprised. I don't know that I could be so generous. What makes you think sis' friend is not more prone to it than the average person?
What I perceive is that both of you see the hurdles to a R, but are very attracted to each other at the same time, so you're willing to overlook them. I think that handling an eventual break-up would be more difficult than you anticipate because you'd have a messenger in between and multiple opportunities to meet. You'd run into each other's new significant others. And if you eventually R with WW, then it will be very awkward to meet her with your sis. I surely wouldn't want my WW's ex around if we R.
I sound skeptical, but I want is to give you an external perspective, from the little that I know. I also don't believe it will have any effect, because I know how attraction feels like.
Hi Mozza,
Thanks for weighing in with your honest feelings
Thanks for the update, as always. So your take on people who leave their relationship (was sis' friend married?) for an A is that it can happen to anyone and you don't judge? I'm surprised. I don't know that I could be so generous.
- She was not married, was dating a guy for 5 years and voiced her desire to be married for the last 4 years of the R.
- Yes, I think it could happen to anyone, or at least most people, given the wrong circumstances. As I've mentioned, I had an EA 2 years ago (albeit a mild one...the OW might not even know we did, I don't know). If OW hadn't moved away, who knows what would have happened.
- I don't judge her just as I don't judge my WW. I'm not saying either of them weren't wrong. They were. So was I. They should have ended their R's/M's first, but in reality that rarely happens. I should have done the research on marriage that I did when she left. Etc.
- I'm also not saying I'm ignoring what she did. Since that A ended, she has been learning about herself, which is all you could hope for. And although she's been on some dates, she has been single for going on 4 months now with no definite end in sight. She doesn't want an R again until she knows she's ready, until she can "trust herself again". Bottom line, though, just like my WW, she was emotionally starved, and met a guy who filled what had been a void in her for years.
What makes you think sis' friend is not more prone to it than the average person?
- You could ask the same thing about either of our WW's. But if I was announcing that WW and I were attempting to R, would you have asked it? Maybe I have a different perspective since I went through the EA. I know what it's like to be miserably unfulfilled for years on end, then to feel a spark with someone you think is "the one". Back then, I thought the exact same words that WW told me, that sis's friend told me last night, and that I've read on here dozens of times: "I thought I ("she" or "he" when read from the LBS perspective here) would have been the last person on Earth to have an A. I can't believe I ("he"/"she") did this." I also had this thought (about 12 months before STBX started her A): "NOW I understand how someone could have an A." Previous to that, I thought you just had to be a terrible person.
What I perceive is that both of you see the hurdles to a R, but are very attracted to each other at the same time, so you're willing to overlook them.
I disagree with this statement. For one, we aren't blindly in love with each other. I definitely was in that phase a few months ago, but I'm much more "detached" from sis's friend now. I still think she is as "perfect" for me as I could imagine. We click on micro and macro scales. Micro- Last night we went to dinner at 7 and we talked until the restaurant closed, then talked for another hour at her house. And only the last hour or so was about "us". Most of the convo was lively yet casual. In her words, "easy", as it always is with us. Macro- From what she's shared, we have eerily similar dreams. Like we both want a 2 week backpacking trip in Europe for a honeymoon. I learned that about her a couple of weeks ago, yet I've thought for years and years that that would be my "dream" honeymoon. But we are both very level-headed right now. I've been on a couple of dates with other girls the last 2-3 weeks, just having fun. I'm not obsessed with anyone, including her.
Also, we aren't overlooking the hurdles. Right now we agree that there is only one remaining hurdle - she is not ready for a serious R yet. And we agreed last night that we should not be anything more than friends until she feels like she is ready, and then only IF we both still want to date at that point. No promises or timelines were made last night. Neither of us see D2 or her BFF relationship with my sister as hurdles, just factors to consider and respect.
I think that handling an eventual break-up would be more difficult than you anticipate because you'd have a messenger in between and multiple opportunities to meet. You'd run into each other's new significant others.
- It can't go any worse than what happened with WW. Even if the same situation happened again, I can't imagine it being harder on me, so I would know that I'd been through it before.
- I see STBX all of the time, and I'm even starting to see her BF on a more normal basis. I am totally unaffected. I am also still relatively close to her family. I hung out with STBX, SIL, BIL, etc. a few weeks ago. I'm love all of them. Really, what's the difference between STBX-SIL and sis's-friend-and-sis? On top of that, my sister and her friend are wayyy more forgiving than STBX and SIL. I say that honestly, calmly and lovingly. STBX and SIL just aren't very forgiving. They would agree, and STBX has told me as much before. SIL still writes hate mail to their dad's "OW" from 20 years ago. I'm not even trying to saying sis's friend and sis are better people, I'm just speaking facts about their forgiveness qualities.
- If sis's friend and I broke up eventually, without kids together, I would probably see her once or twice a year. I would get over it. And if we did have kids, I can't see the difference in the sitch with STBX. The last 4 months have been 4 of the best of my life, and it has nothing or little to do with sis' friend. Would there be pain in a breakup? Of course. That risk exists with any woman I enter a committed R with.
And if you eventually R with WW, then it will be very awkward to meet her with your sis. I surely wouldn't want my WW's ex around if we R.
- I no longer have a desire to R with STBX. I care about her, I even love her, like I love my SIL or something. But not only have my feelings for her died down, I also see it as a battle to make it work. I was never madly in love with STBX, even when we first dated. I (rightfully) broke up with her 6 months into us dating, but I felt so bad that I got back together with her and just tried to force it to work between us. Yes, M's are hard work, but having a natural connection, significant things in common, make the work much more enjoyable to do. STBX and I just don't have that connection, never have. And the only reason to fight to make that disfunctional R work at this point would be D2. And I now realize that D2 is going to be fine. We have a very good start to our coparenting relationship.
I sound skeptical, but I want is to give you an external perspective, from the little that I know. I also don't believe it will have any effect, because I know how attraction feels like.
I do really appreciate your words! I obviously know that my emotions are factoring into my thoughts. I'm a human, and I don't want to enter a R without emotions (like I did with STBX). I always strive to be objective, though, so I carefully read your words and considered them. You did force me to think a little more deeply about her A, and I appreciate your pointing that out and forcing me to think. It makes me even more comfortable to hold off indefinitely from dating her because she really does need more time for self-reflection. Time is the biggest factor in figuring that out.
Thanks as always, Moz!!
Hey Freddy.
Ok, so, here goes. LOL! I am a little concerned that the two of you arent even dating and you have discussed what D2 would call her and where you would go on your honeymoon. Whats up with that?
I am glad that you are taking it slowly. I do think she has a lot to work through and I think you have to heal some more.
There really isnt any rush so take your time.
1. I'm concerned that this woman is signing up for all kinds of hurt. She dated a guy 5 years hoping to get married and it sounds like the guy strung her along. They were still dating. It's NOT an affair and if he didn't want her dating other he should have put a ring on it. But her going from that and choosing to soon after consider dating (and talking about honeymoons and step parenting) with a guy that isn't even actually divorced yet is a fairly good indication that this girls picker may be a bit broken.
2. A lot of divorced men rebound into the first relationship with a younger pretty woman they can find as a way to prove to reclaim their self respect and show their ex-wife that they are the man. Divorce rates for 2nd marriages are higher than first marriage AND third marriages for MANY reasons. SLOW DOWN.
3. I'm not saying this might not be a great fit for you and for her and that the odds have to apply to you but get divorced and date around a bit before committing to the first shiny thing you find. You are only 29. Second marriage success is like 30% in 10 years. You don't want to be a 40 year with two ex-wives already paying child support to two women.
4. Your feelings regarding potential recovery with your stbxw diminishing is no surprise. Your love tank for her is draining into your sister's friends love tank at an alarming rate.
GET DIVORCED FIRST.
Typically (I'm not insulting your new friend that I don't know she may really be great) the most healthy well adjusted marriage material women wouldn't date a still married man if their lives depended on it. You've gone through a huge trauma the last year. Think about this...if your sister was interested in a guy in your exact current situation, would you want her pursuing it???
Hey Freddy.
Ok, so, here goes. LOL! I am a little concerned that the two of you arent even dating and you have discussed what D2 would call her and where you would go on your honeymoon. Whats up with that?
I am glad that you are taking it slowly. I do think she has a lot to work through and I think you have to heal some more.
There really isnt any rush so take your time.
The thing about what D2 would call her was more of a laugh. We weren't actually "discussing" that. We both know it would need to happen organically. But we also know that we shouldn't just casually date when one of us isn't ready for commitment due to the nature of how we're connected
And I do feel like I'm taking my time. I'm not waiting on pins and needles for her to "be ready". I know it could be months, or it could never happen and she could meet someone else. I'm not obsessed like I was in January/February. I am detached, single, and happy.
I've never had an EA and can say that I was never tempted to leave or cheat on my WW. I'm not saying I'm immune, but that I agree that I lack the insight of how it can happen. Perhaps I'd be more forgiving, less suspicious.
Anyway, I don't want to pile up more on top of this. As usual, you seem to take a very mature approach to the whole thing — remember when I had to check your signature to make sure you weren't a 50-yo woman ;-) — and to take things slow. The Great Dating Debate on my thread 11 shows well how dating-while-separated is perceived here, but I think there's more leeway in it. There are several LBH of our "BD generation" facing this question now (jim0987, MCS, you, me), all of us still married legally, yet left behind without the shadow of a doubt. I've success stories around me of people who remarried quickly and have a healthy R several years down the road. I've looked up some research and the delays between R do not seem to be a determining factor of success.
I'm not saying we should be dating, just that it's an option. I'll agree that it can make R less likely, for obvious reasons.
Anyway, keep beating your own path on this and I'm happy to follow your adventures.
I'm not saying we should be dating, just that it's an option. I'll agree that it can make R less likely, for obvious reasons.
I think the real issue here is that if you are not healed and whole from the first relationship and you have done some real serious research about what is wrong with YOURSELF, it is highly likely that you will repeat history with someone else.
I think getting divorced is one of the things you should do as a minimum before you are going to be able to complete this process.
Thanks for weighing in, GB
1. I'm concerned that this woman is signing up for all kinds of hurt. She dated a guy 5 years hoping to get married and it sounds like the guy strung her along. They were still dating. It's NOT an affair and if he didn't want her dating other he should have put a ring on it. But her going from that and choosing to soon after consider dating (and talking about honeymoons and step parenting) with a guy that isn't even actually divorced yet is a fairly good indication that this girls picker may be a bit broken.
You feel that you can't have an A if you're not M? Sorry if I misread. I would disagree with that. I do hold M on a very high ground, and I believe in working through any problems that could possibly be resolved once M'd. But I feel like you can have commitment and betrayal without paperwork, a ceremony, ring, etc. You're absolutely right that he should have put a ring on it, though. She is one of the most forthcoming people I've ever met and I don't doubt that she told him plenty of times her desires, although she said she didn't try to "smother him" with M talk. "I never left ring ads on his desk or anything like that," is what she told me.
From what I've witnessed and learned about women "in their prime" who want families and kids, they typically leave one R for another. She's been single since February, although she's been on some dates for fun. And she seems to be really settling into being single and figuring herself out. I hope, for her sake, that she is patient through this process. We discussed a few weeks ago than one of the hardest parts of this chaos is relearning who you are, what you want, etc.
(uR, this is for you, too. Forgot to address it in my response to you) Let me be clear, we didn't discuss "our" honeymoon. A week or two ago, she happened to mention, in a group setting, her ideal honeymoon. She wasn't even talking directly to me, just gabbing with friends. It just happens to coincide with what I'd always dreamt of. We've never discussed any of this. Not sure why I mentioned it here other than the fact that I don't really have anyone IRL that I'm sharing this kind of detail with about this sitch. Guys at work just want me to join Tinder so they can hear lots of stories, family is kind of close to sis' friend, etc. That's why I turn to you guys! Neutral, unfiltered opinions. I'm grateful for you
And the step-parenting thing...she mentioned it because:
- She doesn't want to date anyone who she knows that she wouldn't potentially marry due to a "deal-breaker" issue. Not interested in wasting her time dating someone who she knows she wouldn't at least potentially marry.
- She'd never considered the possibility of being a step-mom. IF she eventually started dating me, she would have to be okay with potentially being a step-mom. So it's just something she's been weighing, although she thinks, in this case, it would not be a problem. She mentioned it since we were airing out everything we'd thought about.
2. A lot of divorced men rebound into the first relationship with a younger pretty woman they can find as a way to prove to reclaim their self respect and show their ex-wife that they are the man. Divorce rates for 2nd marriages are higher than first marriage AND third marriages for MANY reasons. SLOW DOWN.
I really feel like I'm past the rebound stage. I'm not rushing into anything anymore. I have to admit that I did go through that "I need to prove something to myself (and others, to an extent) by dating/flirting with an amazing girl." I'm past that, though. My most recent dates have been with great women, but I've enjoyed them for the sake of enjoying them, not proving anything.
Obviously I did a poor job of communicating this in my post about our "talk", but the theme of the entire night is that we both agree to slow down, not that we were moving insanely fast to begin with. We've had one kiss. We *aren't* going to date right now and I am not a bit anxious for when or even IF it will happen. Three months ago I was patient to wait, but I was on pins and needles for "IF" it would happen because I was madly infatuated with her. That intensity has passed and now I'm "detached", to steal a DB term. I'm being honest when I say if she started a committed R to another guy, and it lasted, I would be disappointed but not crushed. Couldn't have said the same thing 3 months ago. The other dates I've had lately have shown me that there are plenty of women out there that I could be happy with. I only need to find one ("need" being a generous term), so if it doesn't work out with sis' friend, then it wasn't meant to happen and I'll move on fairly easily.
3. I'm not saying this might not be a great fit for you and for her and that the odds have to apply to you but get divorced and date around a bit before committing to the first shiny thing you find. You are only 29. Second marriage success is like 30% in 10 years. You don't want to be a 40 year with two ex-wives already paying child support to two women.
- I'm fully aware of the stats, and I know I'm still young (although I did just turn 30, need to update my signature). I'm not in a hurry and left her house so happy about our discussion. We're both interested, see the fit, yet we both agree that we shouldn't date right now. And yes, I have been enjoying dates with other women, which I believe has been a factor in getting me from rebound/crush/intense/blind-infatuation phase with sis' friend to how I currently feel, which is much more reasonable.
4. Your feelings regarding potential recovery with your stbxw diminishing is no surprise. Your love tank for her is draining into your sister's friends love tank at an alarming rate.
- My love tank for STBX started draining last June when she stopped fulfilling my ENs. It was empty in December, around when I had my lightswitch moment. And yes, I "fell for" or "rebounded" to my sister's friend around that time (late December). But between January and early April, I only saw her once. In the meantime, I went on dates with 2-3 other girls, and detached from sis's friend. Right now my "love tank" is not consumed by anyone in particular. I'm single, I'm a dad, and I'm enjoying everyday. Me and her and hangout non-romantically and have a ball. I can't say that for one or two of the other girls I've hung out with.
Agreed, although I'm more cautious due to timing and readiness, not whether or not some paperwork has been filled out yet. But it's in the works. Actually mailing out a form today.
Typically (I'm not insulting your new friend that I don't know she may really be great) the most healthy well adjusted marriage material women wouldn't date a still married man if their lives depended on it. You've gone through a huge trauma the last year. Think about this...if your sister was interested in a guy in your exact current situation, would you want her pursuing it???
That's a wise perspective too look from. I would be concerned about her readiness just like I am with sis's friend. Whether or not paperwork was finished would depend on context. Am
I ready? Eh I'm not 100% sure, but it's not like our papers were filed in the heat of the moment during her A and early stages of our S. Maybe it sounds cold but the D feels more like paperwork than anything else at this point.
Like I said, I guess I didn't make it clear - but I'm sure sis's friend isn't ready. I had that thought going into the night and was relieved to know she realized it before I even said it. So right now, no, I don't want to pursue her, I don't want her to pursue me, and I wouldn't want my sis to pursue anyone if she wasn't ready, either. I suspect she needs at least this summer to really figure it out, and maybe even uR's original warning should be heeded: 2015 should be "off-limits" between the two of us. In an ideal world...
I really do appreciate your time and honest words. I wouldn't spend time here if I knew you guys wouldn't be honest. I've turned here with this sitch because I realized I don't have a wise, neutral POV from anyone IRL. So thank you!! And keep the 2x4's coming if necessary
I've never had an EA and can say that I was never tempted to leave or cheat on my WW. I'm not saying I'm immune, but that I agree that I lack the insight of how it can happen. Perhaps I'd be more forgiving, less suspicious.
Thanks for all of your thoughts, Mozza. I haven't posted a lot but I did follow a lot of the dating debate on your threads.
The EA I had was never all that close to PA (I think...), but it happened just like everyone says it does. My ENs were starved, and this other women started fulfilling some of them (everything but sex and other physical things). I would like to think that if she'd stayed here, I would have cut it off, but some distance between us, something. But I can't say with 100% certainty that I would have done that, with how I felt during that time. Before all of that, I just thought you had to be a terrible person to even entertain the thought. I'll never believe that again. I'm still not saying it's justified or okay, I just find it much more understandable and forgiveable. STBX's A has nothing to do with why I wouldn't want to attempt to R with her. That would be a very low hurdle compared to the other mountains we'd have to climb.
I'm not saying we should be dating, just that it's an option. I'll agree that it can make R less likely, for obvious reasons.
I think the real issue here is that if you are not healed and whole from the first relationship and you have done some real serious research about what is wrong with YOURSELF, it is highly likely that you will repeat history with someone else.
I think getting divorced is one of the things you should do as a minimum before you are going to be able to complete this process.
I agree about D. We need to finalize it.
Maybe I need to revisit my 180 list. I have made a lot of changes and done a lot of soul searching, but that was mainly June-through-December. In 2015, I feel like I've sustained most of my changes, some of them even becoming so normal I don't even think about them. But in this year I've just been living and not spending enough time "working on me". Here are my personal turnarounds that I feel like I've sustained so far:
- NMMNG. Still some work to do, but I am much more honest and forthcoming in every arena of my life (work, love, social, parent). There is a line from NMMNG that has been burned in my brain since I read it, although I don't remember it verbatim. Something like:
MNG's think they are great guys because they never lie. Nothing could be further from the truth. NMMNG are at their essence dishonest since they don't comminucate how they really feel, and morph their character and behavior to try to be what they think others expect of them.- I am the most-released from porn that I've felt since I first saw it when I was 13 or 14. I had a bad few weeks in January or so, but I'd say 7 of the last 8 months have been porn free. Before that, going back to my teen years, I was doing well if I went a week without porn. A couple of nights ago I realized I hadn't even thought about porn in 3-4 weeks. Even during my "good stretches" before all of this, it was a list a mild challenge every 2-3 days to resist. I do think porn is wrong in general, but that's not why I am excited to eliminate it from my life. It killed my sense of intimacy, which I can feel is fully alive inside of me again.
- I always thought I was a good listener, but I realized that sometimes I formulate opinions/answers while the other person is still talking. Once I did that, I would ignore everything else they said and wait for my chance to talk. Now I wait until they finish and even try to leave a pause before I say anything, just so I have a chance to process everything they said.
I think some of my 180's can only be implemented in a R. Like sleeping in bed, not on the couch (although I'm trying to go to bed at a more "adult" hour, like 10-11, not 1-3 am). Or spending the adequate quality time with my SO.
I don't know if I'll ever be able to say "yes, I'm ready!" Maybe I will! I just don't know. There is a lingering doubt in me right now. I don't know if that is just uncertainty, or if there is really something more that I need to process. As you guys have suggested, there probably is something real there, it's not just fear of the unknown. I guess I need to get through the D, then have some more time to think.
Man you guys rock!!
Oh, GB, I can't believe I didn't think of it.... congrats for whooping my Louisville Cardinals (hence my username) in the bowl game...I actually have two cousins that are hardcore UGA fans. My phone was blowing up during that game haha
Freddy, I am not sure if I ever wrote this to you. I have been around a long time. Far longer than my register date. I dont post to a lot of people. Mainly because I like to stay with people throughout their journey if I can.
But also because in order for me to post to someone, I need to feel a connection of some sort. It can be how they write, what they write, similarities in our sitches, or just something about them that resonates with me.
I liked your willingness to "hear" what we have to say and your wanting to work on yourself.
A lot of times, when we feel better, stronger, happier, we kind of slack off a bit on doing the work. I am not saying you are doing that, not at all.
I believe that you should finish your stuff before you start a new relationship. I dont mean finish working on you because that should continue for the rest of our lives.
But I mean people should get divorced if that is how their sitch turns out, before dating. I think people should be alone for awhile and just live, ya know?
You say that she hasnt been with anyone since February like its a long time...its two months.
I care about you. I hope you know that. I am glad you are looking at it the way you are.
Just live your life. Get good with you. Plenty of time for all of that.
If it's meant to be, it will be. Til then...keep walking your path.
But I feel like you can have commitment and betrayal without paperwork, a ceremony, ring, etc.
Agreed, although I'm more cautious due to timing and readiness, not whether or not some paperwork has been filled out yet. But it's in the works. Actually mailing out a form today.
Whether or not paperwork was finished would depend on context. Am I ready? Eh I'm not 100% sure, but it's not like our papers were filed in the heat of the moment during her A and early stages of our S.
When you equate dating with being the same or equal to being married you are devaluing marriage. By definition the word "affair" can fit, but what your sister's friend did to her ex-boyfriend was not infidelity, not adultery and in no way compared even remotely to your wife cheating on you. When DATING a boyfriend or girlfriend, despite any promises to the contrary it is a well known and accepted risk that they can DATE other people. It isn't immoral. When married couples share their marital story and include the fact that "Bob was dating my best friend Mary at the time and we kind of clicked from the moment we met...and we starting dating within a week or two" nobody is shocked, surprised or indignant about the way the couple met and started dating. It's unfortunate for "Mary" but dating is brutal.....which is one reason people are attracted to marriage. Why get married if a promise not to cheat on your girlfriend/boyfriend is equal to a marital vow?
Similarly, when you reduce marriage to a piece of paper that you can void anytime you like in opposition to the marital vows you actually took...
"To love, honor and cherish until death do us part"
"in sickness and in health" (waywardism is a sickness)
"in good times and bad"
You diminish marriage and the commitment it represents as an institution.
I mean, couldn't your wife just say that your marriage was dead and you had had that emotional affair on her thereby, in her mind, terminating the marital contract and reducing it to nothing more than a "piece of paper"????
When your daughter eventually asks you about what honestly happened between you and mom how will you explain precisely that what "mom" did was very hurtful and disrespectful to you, that your prior EA doesn't justify what she ultimately did and your dating others before the divorce was actually completely different because HER FAMILY was just a piece of paper by that time??? Because you can't explain that...so, you just don't. You bury it and decide not to discuss it with her or by saying "Mom and Dad loved each other but we just didn't work and weren't meant to be together". Daughter then grows up viewing relationships and people as disposable. Marriage as pretend institution which nobody really takes to mean much of anything more than pretty dress up day and a "piece of paper". Kind of like a little more formal "dating" that you can walk away from when the moment suits you.
Your values become your destiny.
It's not like you live in Canada and have to wait over a year to even file the divorce. Your wife just filed the end of February. Two months ago. I know our perspectives clash (pretty easy for me to say this as a recovered husband) but had my situation a decade ago gone like yours I probably would have fallen for the same thing and dated too (I'm not better than you or preaching). However in the last ten years supporting persons in your position I've seen countless situations like yours turn around during the divorce process. When your wife's affair ends (and they always do) there's a good chance recovery can be attempted. Plus, about 6% of all divorced couples remarry some day. That's not likely to happen when you throw away your commitment/vows and reduce them to just a piece of paper.
I'm just a sucker for hope and when anyone takes this route it usually means the end of hope for your marriage. Why should she care about your marriage, respect you or reconsider you as an option when you seem to have moved on just fine discarding all notions that entity which was your union was truly special?
God is bigger than you, your wife, OM, me, Michele Weiner Davis...than everyone. He can do tremendous things for you if you put your faith in Him and His plan for your life. Putting your faith in the marriage he provided you and that you vowed to Him to uphold might be a good idea FOR YOU whether you recover or not. How big is your God?
I sympathize greatly with you and your predicament but yet, marriage matters.
When reading nmmng or worse, mark so not a man son please be careful buying everything you read. They are just a couple men sharing some ideas about being men but they really miss the boat about being kind decent "men" when they cross over into the PUA stuff or "how to bang women like a rock star".
God made you a man. As a man, you define what being a man means to you. There are way too many men over there who think banging women makes them men, makes them happy and/or makes them better than other men (and certainly better than women who are evidently here to serve men's needs).
Take what you need and leave the rest. Exercise discernment and don't stick around there long or you'll be another one of the guys blabbering on all intellectually and then throwing in how they banged the hottest trainer at their gym last night. It can be like prep high school locker room meets sex addiction anonymous meetings with everyone trying to impress everyone like psycho-babbling roosters.
GB: Have you read Models and NMMNG cover to cover?
It's not a pick-up book, and it's not about being a jerk. It's about being honest and true to yourself, not being deceitful and a chameleon. GB, I did "define what being a man means" for me, and I came up with the "make sure everyone knows you're nice", chameleon plan. Are you saying we should not try to learn from others?
I don't believe I have to "bang women" to be a man and have voiced that opinion on here before.
GB, going back to your previous post:
When DATING a boyfriend or girlfriend, despite any promises to the contrary it is a well known and accepted risk that they can DATE other people.
Couldn't disagree more. I do think there is a distinction that you can leave the relationship at anytime and date. But to remain in the R while also dating and sleeping with another is probably just as hurtful as if it was done during an M. But we don't have to agree.
I mean, couldn't your wife just say that your marriage was dead and you had had that emotional affair on her thereby, in her mind, terminating the marital contract and reducing it to nothing more than a "piece of paper"????
Putting your faith in the marriage he provided you and that you vowed to Him to uphold might be a good idea FOR YOU whether you recover or not. How big is your God?
She could define whatever terms she wants, I guess. It's her prerogative. I'm not "giving up" on the M because she had an A. I suspected for months that she was having an A yet I would have given my right leg to reconcile anyway. I've been going through this since June, not the last 2 months. And she's on her 3rd relationship in that time (that I know of), with several other random dates and hook-ups mixed in (that I know of). Meanwhile, I finally relized that I was going to be fine, same for D2, regardless of WAW coming back or not, and decided I wasn't going to wait any longer.
When your daughter eventually asks you about what honestly happened between you and mom how will you explain precisely that what "mom" did was very hurtful and disrespectful to you, that your prior EA doesn't justify what she ultimately did and your dating others before the divorce was actually completely different because HER FAMILY was just a piece of paper by that time??? Because you can't explain that...so, you just don't. You bury it and decide not to discuss it with her or by saying "Mom and Dad loved each other but we just didn't work and weren't meant to be together". Daughter then grows up viewing relationships and people as disposable. Marriage as pretend institution which nobody really takes to mean much of anything more than pretty dress up day and a "piece of paper". Kind of like a little more formal "dating" that you can walk away from when the moment suits you.
(I'm not better than you or preaching)
GB, I would just be careful guilt-tripping people you don't know much about. I welcome 2x4's but only if they're coming from people who really know what's going on with me. I do realize that you care and appreciate your time.
I liked your willingness to "hear" what we have to say and your wanting to work on yourself.
A lot of times, when we feel better, stronger, happier, we kind of slack off a bit on doing the work. I am not saying you are doing that, not at all.
I do believe I have slacked. I know you couldn't know that, especially since I have not posted as frequently this Winter/Spring as I did last Summer/Fall.
I believe that you should finish your stuff before you start a new relationship. I dont mean finish working on you because that should continue for the rest of our lives.
But I mean people should get divorced if that is how their sitch turns out, before dating. I think people should be alone for awhile and just live, ya know?
I do agree. I think last week when we had our "talk" I felt like I was ready and she wasn't, but now I do think it's both of us that aren't ready, although I'm probably closer. And also, I do understand that this is not advice for me and this one girl. It's for me in general, and who knows what will happen with her. Focused on me.
You say that she hasnt been with anyone since February like its a long time...its two months.
I didn't mean to imply it was a long or adequate amount of time to develop. But I think I foolishly compared her post-R behavior to my STBX, who hasn't been single for more than a week or two since she left me. So 2 months single and the desire to remain single until she can "figure herself out" and "trust herself again" sounded good to me, for her sake. But I shouldn't have compared her to anyone else, and I just need to let her live her life and hope, for her sake, that she does find time to learn about herself.
I care about you. I hope you know that. I am glad you are looking at it the way you are.
Just live your life. Get good with you. Plenty of time for all of that.
If it's meant to be, it will be. Til then...keep walking your path.
Big thumbs up from Cardland! ((uR))
Okay guys, I need some guidance.
STBX's BF broke up with her a couple of days ago. It came as absolutely no surprise to me. They'd already broken up once or twice (only been together since January). He has 3 kids, she still has not done any work on herself since BD, as far as I know. Only thing I'm aware of is that she has taken new meds for her mental health issues, mainly depression. I just didn't see it working out, but I was indifferent to whether it did or not. I kept my mouth shut.
Well somehow, STBX was shocked by the break-up, which is apparently "final" this time, even with them already breaking up in their short time together. Whatever, I guess hindsight will be 20/20 for her like it is with the LBS's (including me) here. Now I think their break-up and the entirety of the last 11 months, as well as her mental problems, seem to be crashing down on her. She is an absolute train wreck. Taking extra doses of sleeping pills, forgetting meds that have kept her somewhat balanced, etc.
On top of that, she has literally no one here to help her, to really help her. All of her best friends moved away at some point 1-4 years ago. 100% of her family is out of town. Closest is 3 hrs away. Her cousin, and lifelong best friend, lives 5 hours away. The best friend she's had for the last year or so just got engaged and is about to move to NYC, so they aren't as close anymore. That leaves me. And I soooo want her to feel better. Not just about this break-up, but in general. But I can't be her shoulder to cry on, her mentor, etc, all of the time. I just don't know if I can be that for her right now. But I have been the last 2 days. I've came over to her apt for an hour or so the last two evenings, because she was just starving for some kind of human interaction (although both times I came over with the impression I was simply dropping off or picking up the dog). She didn't go to work. And today I met her at a house that she's thinking of renting. It was to help her evaluate the house but I think the main thing was for her to have me there with her.
She's of course mentioning suicidal thoughts (not overtly making the threat). Today I think she was still messed up from the pills she took the night before. She was kind of slurring her words and was not nearly as sharp as she normally is. It really hurt me to see her like that.
So here are my issues:
- D2. STBX is scheduled to get her in a day or two, but if she's in any condition close to this, I don't think she should have her. She would hopefully agree with me. She's normally reasonable about D2 when she takes additional meds, usually telling me beforehand so I can pick her up, regardless of D2 schedule
- I'm trying to get her to call her IC, which she hasn't seen in months, to my knowledge
- I've reminded her to call the pharmacy to get a critical med refilled
- She says she's texted with two of her out-of-town friends. Should I call one of them? I know that a lot of the extremity is just from the rawness of the breakup and will hopefully wear off. I was thinking of calling her cousin to make sure she understands exactly what state STBX is in.
I'm mainly venting here because I'm not talking to my family about this. But any wise thoughts or questions out there? I don't want to send the wrong message to her by being "too close", but if I need to I'll help her get over this hump.
Oh and I forgot to mention that the house she's looking at renting is 2 blocks from my current apt. She told me that that was on purpose. Kind of makes me uncomfortable. Yes, it would be convenient. But now I see even more wishy-washiness with schedules and commitments of D2 and dog. And she's spending $2,000 to break her lease so she can move out of her apt. Told me she's doing that so she can escape the pain of the memory of "him" (they just started dating in January, and it never sounded like it was going that well!!). Damn she is a mess right now.
I've been texting with her cousin/best friend. So apparently this guy is married and has bounced back and forth between his W and my STBX 4 times since january. Her cousin says he's manipulating her. I can believe it because she is definitely in a manipulable state, even before he met her
Card buddy, this is a tough situation. First of all, you are doing a whole lot of mind reading, that can lead to a bunch of wrong conclusions. Stop that.
Second, if you are worried about W, I'd give her friends a ring and just inquire. Don't try to come across as controlling (surely you see a hint of that).
Be compassionate to her, but only neighborly... You are doing great. keep up the good work.
Document the crap out of this.
Email or text message those conversations about her meds and what a mess she is right now.
IF she threatens suicide as much as you don't want to call the cops and get her some professional help because not only is it the right thing to do (you aren't equipped nor responsible for her mental heath right now) it is also helpful to any potential custody dispute now or LONG into the future.
Read what I just posted yesterday to Defacto. Your kids likely need you to protect them during this period of your wife's mental illness but the second you start pulling strings and denying her her visitation (in an effort to protect your children) all heck is going to break loose. The more you document this the better protected you will be from any and all backlash.
This isn't advice just to possibly help you screw her over in a custody dispute....you may actually HAVE to protect your children someday. She's unstable and your children need you to remain calm and rational about this and protect them when the time is right. You can't do that effectively unless you build your case in advance.
It's really hard to prove someone is mental and unfit to parent when they KNOW they are being watched and observed.
Hopefully she'll stabilize but be prepared as best you can for the instant she doesn't.
Wow. What a mess. I agree with Georgia Bulldog: start documenting this, you never know when it will be useful.
It sounds to me like you're trying to do a lot for WW. Telling her to call her IC and getting her meds is fine, but once. Otherwise, I'd be concerned that she will start to rely on you. She know she needs to do both, so why doesn't she? Because she WANTS to be pressured. But if you don't pressure here, she'll have to do it eventually. In the long run, it's important that she be autonomous or rely on qualified resources.
I don't know what DB says, but I don't think it's healthy or even a good idea that you be her support. I understand a lot of her people are far away, but so are you, if not physically. Reality is catching up with her now and it has to happen.
I don't like having my WW in the same neighborhood as me — about 400m. I don't want to run into her (happened twice) and OM (never happened). The wishy-washiness of D2's schedule is on you, in the sense that you can refuse the changes (NMMNG!). Make sure to push back a few times. You might say that it's for the good of the kids, but then it has nothing to do with the distance. I know some people here think the more time they get with their kids the better, but I also believe kids need to see both parents and that we LBS need our down time (I miss my kids but I'd rather not be a single parent 365 days a year).
Card buddy, this is a tough situation. First of all, you are doing a whole lot of mind reading, that can lead to a bunch of wrong conclusions. Stop that.
Second, if you are worried about W, I'd give her friends a ring and just inquire. Don't try to come across as controlling (surely you see a hint of that).
Be compassionate to her, but only neighborly... You are doing great. keep up the good work.
Hi Vapo, thanks for commenting.
Maybe I missed it, but where did I mind read? Everything I said is pretty much the facts that I've learned the last 2-3 days. I'm not interested in mind reading anything about her. I don't know how closely you've followed my sitch, but I don't want her back anymore. I haven't since December. I just want to help in the right way while she has so little support. I would gladly hand over the tissue box to any of her close friends if they were here.
I learned from her cousin that this isn't OM2. This is OM1. There is no OM2. It's the guy she left me for. So they've been together, off and on, since our BD last June. FYI - I'm not all that upset to learn this. And oh man does it explain some things.
Moz, you are dead on about the wishy-washy schedule with D2. We were really on-point with the D2 calendar August through, I'd say, January. It's just been changing more and more the last couple of months. It got to the point 2-3 weeks ago that I realized I could no longer trust the D2 calendar more than a couple of weeks out. It was ALWAYS changing. And as soon as one revision happens, it causes a ripple effect and the whole calendar is revised. That has to stop. I've said from the beginning that we'll eventually need to go to 1-week rotations and stick to them. I think the time has come. Right now the calendar is booked until early July. From that point I think we need to go to every other week. If you have to miss days, sure, I'll take her if I'm available. But I'm not going to shuffle my days to make up for it. Especially if it's not for emergencies.
I also don't foresee us sharing the dog for the next 10 years or however long she lives. Not sure when to cross that bridge, though. I would like to just keep her.
I know some people here think the more time they get with their kids the better, but I also believe kids need to see both parents and that we LBS need our down time (I miss my kids but I'd rather not be a single parent 365 days a year).
Hey, that's me!!!
I will take every minute available with my kids, but don't misunderstand my position. Kids DO need to be with both parents. My willingness is to take them from a babysitter or a forced sleepover when H doesn't want them, it's never, ever been my intention to take time away from their dad. In fact, I've offered him extra time, which he's consistently declined.
Card, moving to the week at a time seems like a good idea. Toddlers like consistency and it sounds like that's been lacking. Wishy-washy doesn't work for anyone. I do hope your STBX is OK, and that you can navigate some assistance for her (because it's in the best interest of your D) without getting sucked into her drama.
Sounds like she's going forward with the house. I have slowly tried to separate myself from the sitch a little bit. I haven't mentioned anything about me knowing that OM2 is really OM1/OM and don't intend to or feel the need to. I'm also not urging her to do anything anymore. She asked if I was going to "try to talk her down from the ledge" (i.e. stay in her apt and don't spend thousands of dollars breaking her lease). I said I think she'll regret it but it's her call.
We're also going to get rid of our shared storage unit now that she will have a house w/ basement. I told her I just want to get the stuff I've intended to keep (already divided) and let her do whatever she wants with the rest. Said I didn't want to store my stuff at her house, that I'm going to consolidate.
Hey Freddy...how are you doing?
I've honestly been really stressed out the last few days. I haven't had a day to take care of my own personal stuff in a few weeks. Some of the plans have been really fun, but there have always been plans. I take the blame for not blocking off time to do my stuff.
Also, I'm living with a European and trying to conform to his habits, like A/C. I live in the Ohio Valley (humid, hot) and we've had the A/C on for maybe an hour all year so far. I did purchase an awesome fan, which I carry around the apt like an oxygen tank. Until very recently I've been totally fine with the arrangement. It's just been a little annoying to deal with since I've had a bunch of extra stress piled on me the last week or so. When you're extremely stressed, the last thing you want to do is walk into your home at night and break out in a muggy sweat.
So STBX has officially moved into that house a couple of blocks from me. I'm not okay with the proximity. It really will be convenient, she's not the intrusive type, and we're getting along okay (for the most part...). But we had an issue today. I've mentioned on here that she has been very flimsy with the schedule lately. When I thought more about it, last summer/fall, we never ever changed the schedule except for work-related obligations, or events that were planned at least a few days, if not weeks, ahead of time. But since the turn of the new year, she has changed plans so much that I no longer trust the schedule even a few days out.
I mentioned it to her a couple of weeks ago, that when we go to populate the schedule further (I think it's "booked" until July), we need to go to 1-week rotations and we need to try to stick to the schedule. Then she's been going through all of this chaos from her break up, and then moving, so there were a TON of changes the last couple of weeks. I let it all go and went with it. Not trying to berate her in the middle of her crisis. It just didn't seem productive. So I've had D2 and the dog for most of the last couple of weeks, and I've just had so many problems and wanted a day off.
Today was finally STBX's day to get her. But I saw her name on the calendar and just doubted it somehow. Somehow I knew it wasn't going to happen, at least very smoothly. I even texted her earlier today "What's the plant tonight?", to which she didn't respond. Finally, this text convo happened. Let me know what you guys think. I don't think I handled it perfectly. Keep in mind, she is still kind of moving, I guess, although most of her stuff is at her new place. She's had painters, etc. over to the new rental house all weekend and even today.
STBX: Is there any way you can pick her up? I don't have a carseat.
Me: I will get her today. I know you're in the middle of moving but we have to be more stable with the schedule, especially with last second changes for reasons like this
STBX: Just forget it then
STBX: There's no reason to be rude
Me: I'm not being rude, I'm being honest
STBX: You're being condescending
STBX: Just forget it, I'll figure it out.
ME: Ok
*4 minutes elapse*
STBX: I don't understand you
STBX: You've been calling me asking for help. Would you say this if I had been able to help you?
Me: You're right. But i was asking for a break and I was already at your house. [I didn't say this, but it was also her originally scheduled day to have D2]. I always try to pick her up when I'm supposed to. I responded because I was already doubting that it was going to go as schedueld today. That's why I asked what the plan was earlier.
Me: And I guess it's already a sore spot with me because you have almost never fulfilled what you've promised about (dog). I'm fine having her but it's the change of plans that always happens that I don't want to continue forever
Me: I don't mind being flexible, but I also want to be able to trust the schedule like I could last fall. I haven't trusted it since early this year. Like if we have trips or events we want to rearrange the schedule around, that's fine. But changes like this never happened summer/fall 2014 and have happened so much in 2015 that I'm responding like this. Maybe I didn't respond in the most elegant or graceful way. I'm just trying to be honest
STBX: Like I said, whatever. I'll go find a car seat and bring our kid home to a construction site. I'll figure it out
Me: If your house is a construction site, why didn't you say something sooner? I can pick her up
...
And it got more mundane after that.
That was a comical conversation. Maybe it was the heat?
Card, my only thought is that you could have stuck to the logistics of who was to pick up D at the time and saved the rest of the convo for later. Offering to pick up D to help out W was a positive interaction. Immediate cancelled out because you were "rude" and "condescending". Maybe later in the evening would have been a better time?
I'm just thinking from my perspective. If I need help picking up the kids I don't need a lecture attached with it. I just need help. Later, we can go over the schedule together.
True, Sunny. She definitely was not in the mood. And I didn't mean to lecture. It was just a sore spot and she pushed the button very soon after I expected her to. I went to her house warming party last night and everything was smooth. I mainly posted this here to try to learn from the interaction. Lots of wisdom here. Thanks for your thoughts!
That was a comical conversation. Maybe it was the heat?
The heat definitely has been getting to me, since some days I have no escape from it. Yesterday it wasn't an excuse, though. Perfect weather in Louisville yesterday and today. I actually bought a kite for D2 and was perturbed that it was "too" nice outside...no wind to fly the kite!
Unsurprisingly, STBX is still being strung along by OM. Seems like the guys sleeps with whichever woman he feels like in a given week (his W or mine). I'm not hurt by the A, but my heart really is broken for STBX. Just sad that she has let herself fall so far that she's willing to be treated badly by a married father of 3 willing to openly run around on his family.
This time I found out because I was over at her house yesterday and noticed her TV had been mounted on the wall. I asked who hung it, thinking it was her step dad who was in town with her mom recently. She said, "You don't want to know." I started to give her a big speech but instead opted for, "Okay but I just want what's best for you," or something along those lines. She's a grown ass woman, she can live her life however she wants.
I'm instead focusing on giving D2 as much stability as I possibly can. I need to move out in the fall, and I want my next move to be a place I can stay until I'm potentially getting married or very serious with another woman again. Lord knows what's coming down the road for STBX. Undoubtedly more turmoil. As D2 gets smarter and smarter, I want her to at least know what to expect with dad and his living arrangement.
Hey Freddy...good on you for stopping yourself from giving her a speech. And yea, you're right, she is a grown woman.
Keeping the focus on you and your daughter really is best.
Thanks uR! I just got back from a 1-1/2 week trip out west, visiting family, friends and natural wonders. Had D2 (now D3!!) on the trip with me. I feel like I grew as a dad on the trip because she had some really nasty moods, for extended periods of time, and I didn't lose my cool (too much...).
Visited friends in Phoenix for a day. Visited S#2 and BIL in San Diego. Mom and S#1 met me out there. Surfed, hung out, etc for a few days. Then we all piled into a van (5 adults, D3 and 2 dogs) and headed north. Stopped in LA (Ss06, where were ya?? haha). Visited family in Morro Bay and Napa. The group split after that. S#2, BIL, D3, the dogs and I then went to the forests. Sequoia grove on Friday, Yosemite (OMG) on Saturday. Then one last split, S#2 etc went back to San Diego, D3 and I drove north through Tahoe and flew out of Reno. What a week+!
STBX told me today that she is officially back on with OM. Her words were:
[blockquote=STBX]I also wanted to tell you that OM and I are seeing each other. He got an official custody agreement so he has resolved the custody dispute and his situation.[/blockquote]
Like a custody agreement is going to make their R (8 break-ups in 12 months) function perfectly now... But I simply responded
Me: Good luck to you.
STBX: I know that's probably not what you want to say, but thank you.
Me: It's your life and I just wish you the best.
Card, good job on the exchange with STBX. Even better if you actually meant it.
Ah, used the wrong tag for the quotes...anyhoo
Yes, Sunny, I do mean it.
The rest of this is just me venting to the only audience I can safely do so. Not saying a word of this to her or anyone else IRL. I don't have the right ears in my life right now that should hear this.
I was actually PO'd last night thinking about her sitch. Not because of jealousy or hurt on my end. I just believe it is not the best thing for her to pursue an R with this guy who has dumped her EIGHT times in less than a year, always going back to the other woman. She's not doing any work on herself and has fallen into a nasty cycle:
- They get together, she's happy and calm for a few days/weeks
- That high wears off and she comes back to reality, where she has battles with depression and anxiety
- He leaves (not sure of his motives, nor interested), she falls off the edge of the Earth
- She turns to meds, alcohol, weed. Constantly asks for last minute help with D3. Frequently tells me because she will "be in no state to watch her tonight". Lately has turned to me for a shoulder to cry on - I pushed back some last night. Next time I will not be that at all for her.
- Week or so later, she levels out, but still miserable
- Surprise, he's back! Everything rosy again! Smooth sailing for the rest of life now
- Back to Step 1
That's happened, in some form or fashion, 8 times now. And her drop off has become more and more severe. I'm not saying OM is the source of her problems. They are of course inside of her, as they have been since before I met her. But with the games he's playing, it keeps all of her focus on him (He's back!
- He's gone...
), and she's never had anywhere near the time she needs to look into herself. If you ask me, she needs probably TWO years single to figure herself out. She's probably the biggest mess of anyone I know, including some of my crazy cousins (whom I love to death) that have held that title for a decade or so.
*deep breath*
Tonight I'm stopping by her house to pick up something. It will be the first time I've seen OM since I learned he is THE OM, not just OM#2 (January-to-present) as she originally told me. ~Should I punch him?~
FYI, those ~ are sarcasm tildes
Can someone weigh in on a legal issue?
Her car is worth $26,000 and it's fully paid off (we paid it off while we were married). My car is worth $16,000 and I still owe $9,000 on it. If we split it like she wants to (she keeps her car, I keep mine, and I pay my bill), effectively she's getting a $26,000 asset and I'm getting a $7,000 asset. No prenuptial agreement, shared finances throughout marriage. I do intend to hire a L, but I'm just trying to get as much perspective as I can.
Hi Card - all states are different of course - but in my state I can tell you they add up all the assets and all the debts and then split them 50/50. So lets say your only assets are your cars for the sake of argument. You would have 42,000 worth of assets and 9,000 worth of debt. You would each get $21,000 of assets and $4,500 of debt. She would owe you $5,000 for the car and also be responsible for the $4500 worth of debt.
Of course most people have other assets and all of that gets taken into account when you decide how to split things - so you might get more of the savings account while she gets the car, etc.
And all of this assumes these assets were community property acquired during the marriage.
They were both acquired during the marriage. Thanks for your input
Yep, the goal is for it to be as even as it can be. Doesnt always work out that way, though.
As for the feelings you have about OM and her being back together....aside from how her moods affect your daughter, not your problem, right?
You cant force someone to see that they need to do the work. And I wouldnt be a sounding board for her right now. Not good for you or for her. She needs to figure this out...you need to let her.
Card .. having been in the 'room' discussing such things ... another thing to keep in mind is the agreed upon separation date. (If you do not have one, I suggest you get that in there)
For me this Is/Was/Could be huge ... as all Debts/Assets acquired past such date do not com into effect ... for instance My date is Dec13 ... so we look where we were at THAT DATE, W has pulled 30k out of her 401 after that ... essentially 15k of that is mine, Also ... her car was paid off at that point, value of the car at that time ... again 50% mine, My vehicle I owed 15k at that time but currently that number is $8700, she however still on the hook for 7.5K of that debt.... at that time.
So legally speaking, and I know its one of those tricky things .. for me it was wonderful she agreed on the Dec Date, as I have all the paperwork and bank statements of balances of THAT time, soon after she pulled out about 7k in cash.
Financially she hosed herself if we D, I know this .. my L knows this .. she however only thinks she signed the agreed separation papers to start the D process when it was solely for me for protection.
Every time H pays the rent on his fabulous posh apartment, I think, that's half mine!
Yep, the goal is for it to be as even as it can be. Doesnt always work out that way, though.
As for the feelings you have about OM and her being back together....aside from how her moods affect your daughter, not your problem, right?
You cant force someone to see that they need to do the work. And I wouldnt be a sounding board for her right now. Not good for you or for her. She needs to figure this out...you need to let her.
I do not intend to be a sounding board for her any longer. And I'm sure we'll cross that bridge soon, because -surprise!- he left again. Broke up with her today, apparently. And of course STBX is a train wreck yet again. But it's not as innocent as her just being mopey on her own. D3's bday party is tomorrow and she has a half dozen of her family staying with her from out of town this weekend. So basically their whole weekend is wrecked because STBX is off crying in her bedroom and they're all standing around like "ummm who is this person?"
I learned all of this because I went over there a couple of hours ago to drop off an air mattress and to say hi to these people that I've loved for 9 or 10 years. I get there and a few of them are outside, playing with D3. I found this odd because it's about 95 degrees with high humidity, and they're not exactly outdoorsy people. I talk to her cousin, who is STBX's best friend, and she informs me of the news. I was as unsurprised as humanly possible. I tried to enjoy some time with my in-laws. STBX popped into the living room a couple of times, bleary-eyed. It was just awful and I left way earlier than I would have had things been stable.
So that's break-up #9. I just can't believe STBX is the same person that I was best friends with and was married to for all of those years. That woman never let anyone walk over her. The WAS's really are the ones going through the bigger crisis.
And don't worry about me. This is all her from now on, at least from my perspective.
Holy smokes, 9 break ups! You must have been through the ringer each and every time. My lord.
Sorry that this is your reality, it sounds like you've gotten to place where you're not only detached but the ridiculousness of it all must be borderline comical (if it wasn't real).
Good luck with the in laws and your D's bday party.
I wasn't aware of their PA for the first 5 or 6 break-ups, so luckily I've "only" had to deal with it 3 times now. But I'm not even dealing with this one. Steering clear and making sure D3 is taken care of.
Other than her mess, the weekend went well. Party was fun, I enjoyed catching up with in-laws, although one of the kids was upset I couldn't spend more time with him. Sorry buddy, I was hosting a bday party for 30 people!
I briefly talked to her cousin, and best friend, about her sitch. Cousin said, "I'm over it. She did this to herself. She needs to put on her big girl panties and deal with it." I lover her cousin to death, always have. She's hilarious and almost always on the mark with her thoughts.
I was over at her house for a little bit Friday night and then a while Saturday night. Both times were awkward. STBX sobbing in her room, everyone else thinking, "Who is this person and what's wrong with her?" Of the people at STBX's house (her mom, S, BIL, aunt, cousin and I), only the cousin and I knew about the full extent of the PA. Everyone else is under the guise that the dating with this guy started in January. It was awkward because I think STBX expected me to follow her back to her room and check on her, or something, but I wasn't doing that at all. Later, she finally came out with the group. Then she made this weird joke about being flirty with the lawn guy, which no one laughed at. Man she is such a mess.
I guess I'm still posting about her sitch to show just how chaotic some WAS's lives are in this period. In hindsight, it's blatantly obvious that I had no chance to "pursue" her once this thing started with him. She's obsessed with her "drug" (OM), and nothing/no one can convince her of anything different. She'll have to come to the realization herself. It seems like she's never going to make the decision herself, so hopefully for her sake, OM gets tired of whatever game he's playing with her, and she's forced to move on without him.
Wow, thanks for the update, Card29. You seem to make the right call, observing that there's not much you could have done once this thing had started. It's quite fascinating that STBX can still imagine that he'll come back and they'll be happy ever after. What a mess!
She is a mess.. so sad. I feel for your daughter. Freddy, I am glad you are detached and can approach this with a clear head.
So happy D's birthday went well.
How are you?
I am doing well. I am actually starting to see someone. A few weeks ago, I made a friend who I started talking to more and more regularly. After things cooled off with sis' friend, I had stopped pursuing a girlfriend so I never asked her out on a date or anything. A few weeks later, we decided to go to a concert as "friends". We hit it off and went on a few more dates before she went out of town for a while. I thought it would cool off then, but it didn't. I can still only see her every so often for the next few weeks, which I'm fine with. I guess you could say we're dating now. Too soon? Probably. We are taking it very slowly, though, both emotionally and physically. We mainly just have a ball and laugh constantly.
Update: The divorce should be finalized soon. We'll see. Now that I've transitioned from my "I want to flirt with/meet girls" phase earlier this year, through a few independent weeks (not much time in the grand scheme), to seeing someone exclusively, I suddenly feel somewhat uncomfortable with the marriage still legally together. It's still open only due to procrastination on both of our parts, not from second thoughts or deliberation. Yet it's still there.
I know I don't have to tell you guys to be honest and let me hear what I need to hear.
In a strange coincidence, STBX and I ended up on a the same flight home yesterday after we were both out of town for work for a few days. It was so strange because our trips had nothing to do with each other and weren't even to the same cities. her plane happened to connect with mine, though. We figured it out as I was heading to the airport, so we sat in the terminal and plane together. It was fine, although sometimes awkward as she is an emotional wreck. Of course she was texting with OM while on the ground. Blows my mind that she's still clinging to that, and the same for him. Is he afraid to truly let go and "hurt" her? Is he that confused/dumb, where he can't realize that it's not going to work after 9 or 10 break-ups within a year? Is he just sadistic and likes to keep a hold of her? I really don't know and I'm not trying to investigate it. I had a text convo with STBX last night about her sitch, initiated by her. I kept my focus on her and never mentioned OM. She claims she's spent the "last two weeks" in her own thoughts, trying to figure herself out. I hope that is at least partially true because I know it's not totally true. Two weeks ago she was "dating" OM again, followed by the most recent break-up and meltdown. A week later, she is texting with OM in the airport. Best case, she had a few days on her trip when she didn't communicate with him. She did say that she needs time to figure herself out and "not try to cure the unhappiness with new men". Sounds good, but doing that for months or years is a lot different than saying it in a text convo.
Hey Freddy, who cares what his motives are..because..say it with me...not your problem...right?
Ok, so, here's my thing..I feel that people should finish their stuff before getting involved with someone...for a few reasons. The first of which is that you are still married. The second one is..do you want the beginning of your story with anyone to be...I started dating her when I was still married.
Maybe that doesn't bother you and that's your choice. I'm just wondering why you arent finishing it.
Hey Freddy...just checking in. Let me know how you are doing.
I'm doing great. Now my biggest stress is work. Trying to live a simple life but work is making that a challenge. Otherwise, no major news or changes. Thanks for checking on me
Just checking in. Nothing major is new right now. D still isn't finalized, although I've finished my half of it. I've been proud of STBX. By all indications, she has been clear of OM for a couple of months now, after 12 months of on-again, off-again, all by his choice with her living and dying with each decision. She seems to be making some progress with her depression, too. Coparenting is going well.
My new job has been great. Working for a growing company is fun. No one worried about job security, most people having fun at work, something new and exciting coming along all of the time. I'm in Denmark for 3 weeks right now for work (parent company is Danish). Really missing D3 but I feel like I'm hitting a Reset button that I really needed. This isn't the most exciting country, but I don't know where I'd rather try to "reset". People just get it here. They work 36 hours a week, on the dot. They spend as much time as possible with loved ones and friends. They're home by 4:00 pm and dinners last for hours. There is a reason they're called the happiest nation in the world. I hope someday the whole world operates like this.
I have my housing sitch figure out for next year, too. D3 and I will be renting a house! Actually, it's the house of sis' friend, the one that I was crazy about earlier this year, after I got over STBX. Remember that she had just left a long term R in December. Everyone warned me to steer clear for a while, maybe even a year. I held off for 3 months before finally going on a date or two. We had fun, but we both realized she wasn't ready for what I want (and later I realized that I wasn't and still am not, either). We both agreed that it could hypothetically work in the future. But that was that. We've still be friends since then.
Well, in May, she met another guy. She's partially dated 4 guys since the beginning of the year, not including me (we didn't "date"). She's already living with this one, and now they're moving across the country together. Granted, it's not that big of a commitment because she is going to do travel nursing. But damn she's moving fast. I'm wishing her the best!
Here's my point by mentioning her: As fantastic as she is and as much as I liked her, I'm glad it's not me on that ride with her. Maybe it will work out for her! I hope it does. She's keeping her house in our city, though. And D3 and I are going to have an amazing 2016 in it. It is so perfect for us. If sis' friend stays out west and sells the house, I would probably buy it from her. That's how much I like it.
Way to go Card!
You really seem to be in a happier place.
Rock on m8!
Hey Freddy...so happy to read your update. Good on you.
Denmark sounds like they have it right. They work to live, not live to work.
You are sounding great. Interesting about your sister's friend, yea?
I am a true believer that everything happens as it should, even when we don't understand it at the time.
Please stop in from time to time and let us know how you are doing.
Keep going, sweetie...
Well as soon as I think STBX is doing better mentally, the following happens. I woke up with a missed Skype call. We've Skyped a few times while I've been in Denmark so I can talk to D3. I sent STBX a message saying I was asleep when she called. She responded with this message:
STBX: I wanted you to tell me that Annalyn would be ok if I committed suicide.
Card29: What on Earth is going on?
STBX: Nothing new. I've been dealing with this for months
I asked her a couple of questions after that, asking if her extra stresses at work lately (which she's complained to me about on a couple of the Skype calls) have played a factor in her feeling worse lately than over the rest of the summer. She hasn't responded yet. I also told her that I want her in the world.
I haven't heard anything like this from her in maybe 3 months, but I know that's not a long time in the context of her problems. They've existed for years. But I just don't know how to feel or respond to them. Sometimes I think they're cries for attention. Other times, I'm so worried that when she doesn't respond to a message for a few hours, I assume she's already done it.
Wow, I'm not even gonna touch this, I have no experience in this. I will leave that for the vets. But wanted to say I am thinking about you buddy!
I would get in touch with her family or a good friend and share your concern - ask someone geographically closer to call in and see how she is doing. Also, do encourage her to seek help if she needs it or also call an emergency support service like Samaritans if she feels desperate.
It must be so hard to hear something like this when you are so far away....
Take care xx
Wow, Card, sorry to hear this. I worked for a church for 17 years and saw up close and personal more than a few suicides and how they affected the families. It's heartbreaking that she feels that way and that you feel powerless to help her. I'm hoping you hear from her soon, and that she seeks the help she needs.
Hey Card29, it's been so long. Care for an update? I'd like to know how you're doing, if STBX is better, if you moved into that house, etc.
I remember you mentioning how you detached almost at once. It hasn't been all that sudden for me, but it has happened. I'm at a point where I hope she stays with OM because that's how she's least likely to cause me trouble. I've ups and downs, like everybody, but I don't attribute them to WW anymore.
Hope you're well.
Hi Mozza! It certainly has been a while. I'm glad to hear about your detachment. I hope you can now feel the relief.
First, about me. I have a girl friend now. I met her last February. Started noticing the spark over the summer but still was reluctant to date her (or anyone, at that point). But eventually it started, and I've just tried to enjoy the moments instead of thinking so big picture with her. I've taken things very slowly with her. I waited 6 months from when we first started talking for her to meet D3. I really don't know what to expect in the future, but for now I'm happy.
I did move into the house! I've been in it about 1-1/2 weeks. It is absolutely perfect for me and D3. I don't know how long I'll be here because I only signed a 6 month lease with my friend ("sis's friend" from early 2015, if you recall). If it was up to me, I would be here long term. But she is not sure how long she wants to be out west.
STBX (very "soon", actually, as our divorce D is now completely filed and in the hands of a judge. Complete any week now): I don't know how much better she is but I at least haven't heard any direct suicide talk. She has apparently started dating here and there, which I'm totally fine with. She says she doesn't like it, though. A couple of positive things for her, though: I believe she hasn't been with OM for several months now. The further she gets from him, the better for her. And she's leaving today for a solo trip/vacation/escape/meditation/prayer weekend somewhere in the Caribbean. She's never went on anything like this trip, so she's been nervous. She only decided on the trip 2 weeks ago. I'm happy for her and I hope it gets her a reset point of sorts. I don't expect for her to come back a new woman. I hope she doesn't expect that, either. I don't know how her problems can be solved, but I know they can't be solved overnight, or even over a few months.
Last thing is that the DBing went full circle. I was fully detached, then STBX finally started coming down from her high with OM. And she started trying to get me back. I wanted nothing to do with it, and only partially because I have a GF. Now that I'm detached, I see STBX from a fresh perspective. And I see her as someone I *currently* have no interest in dating. It's not that I don't "trust" her due to infidelity; I don't trust her steadiness. Will she want to start dating me now and then waver in a few months? But it was eye opening to be on the other side of the DB coin. Not that I was going through chaos like she was when I was DBing her, but it showed me just how unattractive unwanted pursuit is. She was also constantly mind reading. ("Oh you can't help me with D3 because you're ****ing your new GF, huh?!" .....no response to that, needless to say she was very wrong in the context of that particular convo). So for everyone out there struggling to detach, to stop mind reading, to stop pursuing, take it from someone who was struggling as much as anyone a little more than a year ago: FOLLOW DB. It is the best chance your R or M have, but more importantly it's the best chance for YOU to turn your life around in the quickest, healthiest way possible.
Healthiest way???
How is having your own revenge affair an example of the "healthiest way possible"?
You had a chance to save your marriage and didn't because you were involved with someone else - so, it seems, "plan Card" might have worked for you but was it really "the best chance your relationship/marriage had"??? Was it really DB at all (I don't see dating other women on Sandy's list)????
I truly pray your girlfriend isn't a rinse and repeat of your soon to be ex-wife - she already has a pretty big knock against her being willing to date a married man and all. I wish you well. Infidelity is certainly a huge trauma - I just hope the extra consequences of your choices to apparently commit adultery (maybe you aren't having sex with your girlfriend, I don't know) don't hurt you and your daughter that much more down the road.
Fantastic! Thanks for the update! You've been through so much and we've had the chance to see you turning around here. With the infidelity, the breakup, separation, divorce, tantrums... It's a wonder you're in such a good place today. You've been very grounded from the start.
It's quite interesting that your WW wanted to R. In her difficult situation, while yours is improving by the month, I'm not surprised (your life sounds attractive!) and I see where your reaction came from. In a way, it's a similar analysis that lead me to the conclusion that I no longer wanted to R even if WW asked (which she isn't close to - still living with OM). Just because they ask doesn't mean they really want to come back. In fact, that's something Sandy is saying. I remember her even telling a LBH here (BigMac?) that his WAW's pleas to come back were not a real opportunity yet.
I agree that your story shows how DB works. It looks like you've saved yourself and that it did create an opportunity to R.
Hi Georgia,
I appreciate you spending time thinking about my sitch. You're entitled to your opinions.
Hi Mozza,
Once the light switch flipped for me, I didn't immediately rule out not R-ing with her. The breaking point of that was when she was trying to R during the 2 week breaks with OM. That behavior showed me she's nowhere near ready for a true R.
Georgia, one last thought, just so other DBers aren't misled. DB WAS the best path to reconciling my marriage. It's just that when I got back to that point, I didn't want to reconcile. No, of course dating someone else is not in the DB handbook. I feel like my dating is post-DB and post-marriage. I followed DB as closely as I could, even though that included many slip-ups with mind-reading, begging, pleading, etc. My point was that whatever your desires are for your M (R or being able to move on), DB is the best path.
Also, I'm not rushing into anything serious with my GF. I know I'm not ready for a long term commitment, not even close. She knows that, too.
Update: My D is finalized.
Wow! Card! You really give me hope. This purgatory is awful.
Regarding the D being finalized - I am sorry it came to this. I hope you don't feel badly about it. From reading your posts, you seem to have no regrets about it and know that it was the right thing to do. I am happy that you are doing so well.
I know it sounds strange, but I can't wait to get to where you are now.
RAI
I was fully detached, then STBX finally started coming down from her high with OM. And she started trying to get me back.
Yep!
Hi Card, it's good to hear from you again. I hope you will find the happiness you want and deserve. Just please be careful about your first GF after your D. Have you dated anyone else, other than this particular GF?
Please start a new thread.
job - I will start a new thread when I post any more updates. One last response for sandi:
Thank you for the thoughts. And even more than that, thank you for all of the support you and others gave me, especially the summer and fall of 2014. Craziest/best/worst/wildest months of my entire life, and this board was a major, major part of the journey. I'm so grateful for all of the encouragement, advice, as well as 2x4's. I needed all of it! And don't worry, this is not a "good bye". I'll continue to post updates.
Regarding this GF: Yes, she is the only one I've dated. I went on one way-too-early date with sis's friend back in February or March. After that, I realized I needed more time and space. Did I allow enough time before entering a new R? Probably not...but I am being careful and not doing anything rash or hasty. I don't feel out of control. Not to say I'm controlling her or the R, just that I don't feel irrational.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2647879#Post2647879