I wish I would've come across this site 3 months ago. A bit of a backstory (forgive me for not knowing all of the acronyms). My wife moved out roughly 3 months ago. Partly for identity crisis, constant fighting over last several months, and love tank not being filled by me. I did what is sounds like most LBS do. Constant pleading, begging for reconciliation, pushing for counseling, etc. Initially, we went to counseling as the separation was designed as a therapeutic separation. First month separated, we got along great, spent time together, and I felt it was moving in the right direction. I was going above and beyond, flowers, notes, much of the stuff I didn't do consistently during our marriage. She got cold feet and the relationship immediately changed from one day to the next. Since that point, our relationship has deteriorated.
We have 2 young children, and I know that we both still love each other deep down. However, I have pushed harder, said negative things, used guilt, recruited friends to talk to her, and about 1.5 months ago, she said she wanted to divorce. No papers have been served, and it may in fact be an empty threat, but it has been said consistently and often when our relationship comes into conversation. Which brings me to the 37 Rules. I will say this, it has been a GodSend. Emotionally, it is the most satisfied that I have been since our separation. Began implementing 2 days ago, and I notice a drastic difference in how I am handling this time. I was repeating many of the same negative behaviors, consistently.
Other than the 37 rules, please let me know any other advice that you may have for me, or other resources I may want to consider.
So a question that I have is that since I have detached, my wedding anniversary is next Saturday. Do I treat that day as just another day and not make contact?
Welcome aboard. Have you read the Divorce Remedy book?
What are the ages of you, wife, and kids? The more information/history of the M, the better we can help.
I, personally, don't encourage celebrating wedding anniversaries when the couple has separated or the bomb has just been dropped.....Or like in your stitch where things have gotten worse, instead of better. She wants to put time and space between you. She needs to taste life without you.
Sometimes, the WAW will ask the LBH about what to do. ( i doubt she will, but IDK.) Some couples will take their children and go eat at a kid-friendly place. But under no circumstances should you plan some romantic evening to wine & dine her.
But if you just HAVE to do something, get a very simple card, nothing mushy, and just sign and mail it. No "I love you" or anything extra. In some cases, saying thanks for the sweet memories is okay......depending in the situation. Some people say "thanks for our children". But IMHO, this mostly adds pressure to the WAW and doesn't cause a positive affect.
Mike I did pretty much the same crap for the first 3 months, just recover and start now...a lot of good people give good advice here.....LISTEN
Sandi I miss you on my sitch...lol come on by when u get a chance need advice..;)
We were married 6 years ago. Her and I met and month later we were pregnant with our son. She immediately moved in with her 9 month old daughter, so obviously, rushed into things. We fell in love over the pregnancy. Backstory on her---very difficult past. Molested by family members (including father), physically abused by Mom, raped at age 19 (30 years old now). Her first child(I adopted upon marriage) was from a bad relationship. She comes from divorced parents.
My backstory, my parents divorced when I was in 4th grade. Dad was an alcoholic and a serial adulterer. My W told me over the last 9 months that she wasn't happy, but I honestly pegged it on her past as she has had several mood swings as a result of her past. She felt as though I wasn't keeping her love tank full. I also had a tendency to be a bit overprotective of her due to some of her past and was afraid she'd get hurt again. It caused a strain as she saw it as controlling. Even though she is 30 years old, I also think that a MLC may be taking place. Kids are now going to school, she was a stay at home mom up until last fall when she started working. She's mentioned that she didn't know who she was anymore?
Oops almost forgot, I'll add this to a signature
Me:37
W: 30
Son 6 Daughter 8
Separated 4.19.14
Ok, I agree now that recognizing the anniversary with the WAW isn't the choice I should make. I must say that I am curious if I she will recognize the day or what type of reaction I will get if I ignore the day completely. I will expect nothing and if she reaches out that day I think I will craft my response as "yes, we do have some sweet memories" and leave it at that.
What are your thoughts on wearing a wedding ring still and keeping up wedding photos. The WAW comes over frequently for kid drop off pick up. I keep on my ring, though she removed hers prior to moving out. I want to keep on mine as a reminder to her the promise and commitment that I made with her is real. It is the one thing that I can do to show that I still value our commitment without saying it.
I personally think wearing your ring is your choice. I wore mine in the beginning but once H became public with OW I took mine off since April. He never really wore his unless we went out. He never wore it to work. Do what you feel is right now what you think she does or doesn't want to see. Remember this is about YOU!
Thanks for the validation, and I do realize that this is about me at this point. It is interesting seeing these changes in my approach and the results that they seem to be having.
Case in point, I have been making it a point to be less available when WAW calls/texts. Just earlier today, she called 2 times in a row, and I didn't answer. She then showed up at my house 20 minutes later to pick up something that she needed for tomorrow. Her response was, "how come when I called you, you didn't answer?" "I only call when it has something to do with the kids, it's not like I am calling to talk to you" I reacted by responding as if she was the "nosy neighbor" and simply said, I didn't have my phone handy and didn't realize you called. I validated that she felt frustrated, and proceeded to walk out the door to say hi to my kids as they were in her car.
If anything, the 180 is helping me get my spine back and I realize how submissive I had been over these few months of separation always bending over backwards to have any conversation possible.
Mike,
Great response to W when she began asking you about not answering!
I'm like you, I feel wearing my ring sends the message that I'm committed to you, but I also have a tattoo under the ring which also symbolizes this.
As for your anniversary, my H bd the month before ours. I was on my way out with the kids to play some putt-putt, when H called to say he was on his way over. I invited him and he went with us. It was really hard not to celebrate, but it was nice to do something with him on our day. It will be really emotional, so definitely do something for YOU!
Sorry to find you here but this forum has carried me for the last six months and the wisdom here is to be heeded. As for rings: the advice I got from vets here is that whatever you decide do NOT be wishy washy....on again and off again.
Just choose one and keep it. In the end it is about you. My counsellor said if she doesn't like it that I wear the ring it's HER problem she has to deal with.
And as for the anniversary....my wife wanted nothing to do with it and it was like an un-birthday. Almost killed me but then I said FK it and GALed and went out with my friends and decided "I am not going to make a sad memory of tonight ...i love her with all my heart...but I am going to have fun despite this sitch."
Ok now keep working on yourself as well. Looks like with the baggage you and your wife are carrying there is plenty to do.My w is also in mlc from SHM to career woman. She will blame you for everything so she can justify her new changes. No expectation. Listen and validate. Become the man only a fool would leave. On your side and if I can do it you can too.
I appreciate the advice. I have read DR up to Step 6. Very helpful. I have been able to recognize how by just me changing how it can affect the entire dynamic between WAW and I. My personality is much more passive aggressive vs. her more confrontational approach. Just the simple change of not responding with a sarcastic quip or becoming overly defensive when she gets confrontational has altered the communication pattern between us.
It's only been 1 week since detaching and beginning to apply the 37 rules of a 180. I backslid once by telling WAW I loved her on Wednesday and she asked me not to say it anymore. I responded with a simple OK.
Until detaching, I didn't realize the emotional pull that my WAW had over me, and how I could allow her mood to dictate mine. Unfortunately, that was an issue in our marriage and I would often withdraw myself when she would get confrontational or annoyed about something else.
I must tell you how happy that I am that I found this website and began doing the 180 or LRT. Reason why is today I was tempted to backslide so much. I have noticed a change in my interactions with my WAW and the phone conversations have been much more friendly. (planning our daughter's birthday party for tomorrow evening)
I wanted to tell her that I missed her and I was tempted to ask her out for our anniversary (this Saturday) against all I was advised and learned. I didn't but I am still a bit down just thinking of spending our first anniversary apart. I am assuming she is going to be a bit down as well, and though I have no expectations, I am pretty sure that she would expect a simple text from me.
Was able to enjoy my life this weekend, and continue to DETACH, and I do feel as though I am doing well. Just fortunate that I can vent on here and share a bit here, rather than backslide and undo progress that I feel that I have at least made personally,
I will say what my fear is about the LRT approach is. If my wife senses that I am too happy, the insecurity arises that maybe a divorce is what's best in her eyes and that she goes through with the previous threat. At the same time, I am confident that she also would think, what kinda fool would leave a guy that has committed to being a better person and father to our young kids. Thanks for taking the time to read guys and gals. Any feedback and motivation would be great.
Mike,
I hear you about the LRT possibly showing how easy it would be to be divorced. I'm concerned about the same thing with my h. I'm trying to remember to look for teeny tiny little things that show me where his mind is. He's eager to move out but two weeks ago he was serious about year leases and today he was talking about 3 or 6 month leases. I'm trying to see that as an unconscious mention if his true hopes.
Keep being the best man you can be but force yourself to remember to do it for YOU because no matter what, these changes your making are good and healthy and will bring you to your goal. I'm trying to do the same. You're not alone.
I wouldn't recognize any date she doesn't first. It falls under pursuing and appears to be an attempt at manipulation by making her feel guilty or trying to get her to remember the good times. Read the 37 rules again.
Also, don't worry about the fear of not showing more interest. I feel that too, it's a fair question. But it isn't true. She is in a TOTALLY different place then you, read more threads by WAS's. when and if the day comes she has feelings strong enough to reconsider the D she will let you know. She's not going to walk away from the potential of a happy marriage with someone she's close with and loves because he respected her wishes and took care of himself. Broadcasting how you feel can destroy that process however as it forces her to keep her defenses up and forces her into the role as the WAS.
She is trying to walk away. The more you pursue the faster she walks. Stop chasing so when she is far enough away to feel safe and looks back she likes what she sees.
You know this, now keep doing it!
Thanks for the perspective. Appreciate it.
I've got to say the part that makes all of this so hard is our young kids. They are so miserable. As a family we did everything together. Hiked, biked, church, swam, never a dull moment. They had a fun weekend with Mommy and tonight were absolutely miserable. They blame me for Mommy being gone. I know that she doesn't bad mouth me, but they want us to be together. However, they don't mention it to her nearly as much as they mention to me. With me it's an every night thing. At first I would tell her what they said, but it almost sounds manipulative and I don't want to play the kid card.
I just encourage them to open up to their mom the way that they open up to me. I can't see that being a bad thing as long as what they share is genuine. I pray constantly to an end to this situation, but my gut tells me it's going to be a long road. In the meantime, it is so tough seeing my kids so down about it.
So no expectations right guys and gals. Not too sure what to make of this, so I hope a vet sees this and can share some insight. I have been dedicated to DETACHMENT, no pursuit, and GAL. My WAW has warmed up at least as a co-parent and there hasn't two-sided conflict in a few weeks. Earlier posts will share some of the potential conflict that I have since deflected.
Here's the interesting thing. WAW picked up kids from me this AM. I was on a conference call so I had to be short on purpose. Some last minute details for daughter's party had to be discussed, and I tried to intentionally listen to her requests.
She asked me if I would pick her and our kids up and ride together to the party location. It surprised me, since we have driven separately to virtually any shared event since separation. I agreed, but played it cool and didn't act as though it was an unreasonable request. So what gives? Came out of nowhere. I've been praying for a softening of her heart and not sure if this it or not. Come on vets, help me process this.
Mike, I'm sorry you find yourself here. I am by no means a vet, but I'll give you my 2 cents. I wouldn't read too much into the request to ride as a family. It could be softening or it could be to make the kids feel better. Only she knows her true motivation. Just use the time to be pleasant and friendly. You really have to have no expectations in this situations. I know that's a lot easier said than done.
Well interesting evening. Had daughter's birthday party. We didn't wind up driving together as it would have been too packed in the car. Instead we met at the party location. Thankful for the techniques in DBing and for being able to detach. I put myself in the best possible light. I was cheerful to friends and family that was there, but not obnoxious about it by any means. My WAW and I didn't interact much during the party but when we did it was fairly pleasant. Focusing on DBing has started to become easier. There were some awkward moments while we were there. WAWs two best friends were there and she pretty much stuck to them during the party. At times I would see the 3 of them glance over in my direction. I must say, she seemed to enjoy the conversation with her 2 friends, but she didn't look happy. I can't say why, but it came across to me loud and clear. She Interacted very little with anyone except her friends and very infrequently with the kids. Trying to be more perceptive to my surroundings, and picked up on that. Fake it til you make it stood out loud and clear. The funny thing is, she doesn't tell anyone except her closest girlfriends and her brother that we are separated. Makes me think that damage control will be easier for her if we do work things out.
Uggh....so glad to be detached because the emotions of the WAW are intense. She is overwhelmed about the fact that she is constantly with the kids (she watches them during work as a personal trainer) whether it is her week or not. I validated constantly on the vent session but she was still upset and just wanted to vent and tell me how hard it was on her and that I didn't understand the sacrifice. I think to myself, this was her choice and if she wouldn't have left we'd be a two income house and that wouldn't be an issue. We could've afforded to put kids in camps, etc. I used to mention it before DBing, but haven't in weeks.
When looking at finances, I mentioned August would be tight and I asked if she was planning on paying for her hair appointment. She instantly turned it into an argument. While I understand why she got upset, I instantly tried to validate as well as figure out where we can budget our money for the month due to back to school shopping, dental visit, etc.
Detached in many ways, but still realize that her personality is very dominating. I try to stay and remain in neutral, but her personality style has to be right, and it is frustrating when I attempt to explain on logic and she reverts to emotion. No closer to reconciliation obviously, but frustrating because just trying to learn to communicate with her is a chore as well.
Do you guys think the frustration she feels due to the kids is genuine? Guilt driven because she sees she put herself in this spot? Irritated because I've pulled back?
So not sure how if this goes against the DB rules, but I felt as though I needed to share this with my WAW.
Just sent her a text. No expectation for a reply. "I realized that on several occasions during our relationship, I've put more focus on being your biggest coach, rather than your biggest cheerleader". Good Night
It may come across as pursuing, though it was more of a self realization that I focused much of my attention on trying to fix her flaws rather than celebrate her accomplishments. First text like that I've shared in weeks, but I thought it was important for her to hear.
I have not followed your entire situation but from the last couple of posts, I'd say your text could possibly be interpreted as pursuing. Then again, only she knows how she interprets it. If it was a genuine realization, then yea, even if it was a temporary backslide, maybe it will be something she will think about in the future. Either way, I would not worry too much about it. As for her frustration with the kids being genuine, it is possible. It is also possible that all the events going on, the frustrations she already had in her life and M, now pile on the added pressure of less income and all the extra expenses, that she is just venting in general and picked the kids as a convenient scapegoat, or at the very least, the most recent catalyst of her crankiness. Remember, believe none of what they say, and only half of what you hear.
I knew that there was the possibility of it being looked at as pursuing, but it was one of the things that came out in my own counseling and I felt that it was worth sharing. I made no mention on it about loving her or even the mention of the word sorry.
I looked at another member's post right now, and it made me remember that these steps are for me, not her, but I can see certain things getting to my WAW that she used against me yesterday.
I leave her hanging on not taking all of her calls, which is something that I never used to do during our relationship, and she responds with "it's about the kids, you need to call". I show up to D8 birthday party dressed nice in clothes she didn't remember, and she says I'm out buying new clothes. I am out getting a life and going wakeboarding and spending time with friends, and she reinforces that she never does anything.
However, I take a look at myself now, understand my baggage and my contribution to our M taking a bad turn and own what I contributed to the M going bad. My friends that I talk to notice a change in me based on tone and attitude, and I feel better personally about myself than at any time (including the last few months we were in the same house together). It's that realization that reinforces that this process is for me. However, knowing that I am trying the LRT approach, I sit back asking myself is anything going to change, will it be gradual, will my anniversary on Saturday be an enlightening time for her to come around?
I still wrestle with her telling D8 that the two of us are trying to work on things, but everything with me has been it's over and even yesterday the phrase "when this whole thing is final" I find myself asking myself is what she says to me frustration because she doesn't want to be pursued or is what she is saying to my kids false hope. I can't press her on that because it will be relationship talk, but it makes me wonder, because my kids know that I want my M restored and us all in the same house.
Mike
I feel you .. that's the toughest thing for me is having the family back together, during therapy I stopped mid sentence and asked myself ... did I love my family more than my wife>? I had to think about that for some time and I realized I loved both, I do love her and all her ways ... just have to suppress it and detach as hard as it is. But that family carrot is a tough one not to want and chase. Hang in there.
I was having lunch with a good friend today and he put something into perspective with me that I had never thought of. I mentioned how my wife is the most indecisive person that I know. Takes forever to pick out shoes, what movie to watch, and ordering food. He mentioned that if she has such a tough time deciding what to order at dinner, how hard must the decision of calling it quits on the marriage must be. With that being said, I immediately thought of how stressed she gets when a waiter comes to our table several times before she has made a decision.
It makes me think of DBing in a new light. By me pursuing, it was making her decision easier because it was only causing stress. By backing off, no R talk, Getting a Life, she is forced to make her decision and I completely see the logic now. Making myself as attractive as possible, can only make her 2nd guess herself. Remaining neutral in a potential argument leaves nothing that she can come back and complain about. Etc.
Well Anniversary day is today. I woke up feeling stronger than expected. Had a brief cry last night after my kids went to bed. I am proud though. If I was going through that before trying the techniques from DR and the 37 rules, I would've texted her telling her I loved her and missed her. So that in itself is a huge 180. No expectations from WAW. For me it's GAL. Buddy of mine is coming up with his daughter from LA later and going to bbq and swim with our kids. I can't thank this site and DR enough. I totally see how these changes are for me. I'm sure WAW notices from afar. I guarantee she was/is expecting me to blow up her phone today with messages and pursuit. I have no idea what is going to come out of my marriage, but the weak guy of the last 3 months is slowly changing back into the assertive, confident man that I know I am.
Well not sure how to react to this situation within the context of DBing and the 37 rules. My WAW has a male friend that has been around her house when the kids are with her and last weekend they went to the beach with my kids. I have been assured that they are only friends and that it is no different than if it was a girl friend that she was with. She has been honest with me up to this point, so I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt. However, at the same time, I am VERY uncomfortable that another man is spending time around my kids while our situation is so volatile.
I mentioned how I felt the first time I knew that they spent time together to her. She asked first because he was over there when my D called to tell me good night. Her exact comment was "is it ok if I have guy friends?" My response was, you can be friends with whoever you want, I can't control that, but I can tell you my feelings if you allow me. She then asked how I felt, and I told her I didn't feel it was good for the kids and it could confuse them. I told her my thoughts, and she continued to justify saying it was no different than if she was hanging out with one of the guys that we are all friends with as a family.
The next day after processing, we had a very tense conversation, I started DBing a few days later. I felt disrespected, and felt that it was a lack of respect for me and my kids. I think that she takes it as control because she often times threw the boundaries I would set in the home as being controlling. So when she takes him with her to the beach the following weekend, part of me thinks she is trying to show me that she will do whatever the heck she wants and she feels justified. I however, think it is a horrible choice of judgement, but since I've spoken my peace, I don't have much more that I can say that is different.
Advice???
My WAW has a male friend that has been around her house when the kids are with her and last weekend they went to the beach with my kids. I have been assured that they are only friends and that it is no different than if it was a girl friend that she was with.
You have not been assured. Because next you say:
She has been honest with me up to this point, so I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt.
No need to give someone the "benefit of the doubt" if you are assured.
Her exact comment was "is it ok if I have guy friends?" My response was, you can be friends with whoever you want, I can't control that, but I can tell you my feelings if you allow me.
If she allows you? Really man?
She then asked how I felt, and I told her I didn't feel it was good for the kids and it could confuse them. I told her my thoughts, and she continued to justify saying it was no different than if she was hanging out with one of the guys that we are all friends with as a family.
What did you actually WANT to tell her instead of what you did tell her?
The next day after processing, we had a very tense conversation, I started DBing a few days later. I felt disrespected, and felt that it was a lack of respect for me and my kids. I think that she takes it as control because she often times threw the boundaries I would set in the home as being controlling. So when she takes him with her to the beach the following weekend, part of me thinks she is trying to show me that she will do whatever the heck she wants and she feels justified. I however, think it is a horrible choice of judgement, but since I've spoken my peace, I don't have much more that I can say that is different.
So what do YOU want to do?
What I want to do, is tell her that I think it is disrespectful to my children and myself that she has been bringing a man around my kids the last 2 weekends that she has had them.
Mike, I don't personally have kids and I'm still relatively new around here, so I don't know that I'm qualified to give you advice on your current event. I did however want to pop in and say I hope your anniversary went as well as posible yesterday. I had mine a week and a half ago and had zero contact with W the entire day. It was hard, but I got out and pushed through it. Hope you got through yours ok as well.
What I want to do, is tell her that I think it is disrespectful to my children and myself that she has been bringing a man around my kids the last 2 weekends that she has had them.
She knows that. You don't need to tell her.
The anniversary went ok. I had some friends over to spend time with the kids and I. I didn't attempt any contact, nor did WAW. She spoke to my kids a few times. WAW knew I had friends over because D8 told her while talking, so at least she knows that I wasn't just sitting around feeling down. I can't read minds, but I know that to some degree it affects her knowing that I have made it a point to GAL.
At the point I am at now, I have uncertainty as to what direction my marriage is going to go. I have made a decision that if there is another man, I am going to move on. I love my family and I love my WAW, but I will not allow myself to go back to a marriage where there has been infidelity. I know with my WAWs past it's a strong possibility, and I am holding out hope and praying that she doesn't put herself in that position.
In the meantime, being the strong man of faith and source of strength is what I need to be successful and what my kids need to see from me. I am just going to continue to detach, use the 37 steps towards her, and trust that God will do the rest. Whatever she does is on her. Her lease is up in October so she is going to have to begin to decide what step to take. I am beginning to sense a bit of anxiety about that date and I am sure that she is as well. If the thought of October, upcoming holidays etc. doesn't bring her any anxiety then she really is in a fog.
Early on in our separation, she would often mention that she was lost, confused, and broken, and while my marriage did contribute to some of that, I know that her past also affected her perception of marriage. I read something not too long ago that spoke on women that have been molested/raped/abused have a difficult time accepting love/stability and feel more comfort in rejection/fear because that is an emotion that is familiar. Often times people with these pasts sabotage their relationships because of this.
It's an unfortunate thing because I am confident that I have been a good man (with flaws of course), but I can't rescue her or control anything anymore with her. I set healthy boundaries as a husband that she didn't really respect. When I stopped feeling respect, I stopped truly listening to her love languages and it went a difficult direction.
I'm at a comfortable point now where I am just going to GAL and she will look back at me and see strength and stability and have to decide if that is what she wants or not. I am going to focus on not giving any reasons why not to return, as that only adds fuel to her self fulfilling prophecy as why she wants to leave.
She promised my daughter yesterday on the phone that she was going to try to work things out with her and I and I'm prayful that she means it. In the meantime, my D and S are getting an outpouring of love from me so that they feel secure knowing that they have a father that loves and respects them.
Well a bit of an update. There was a bit of a backslide 2 days ago because I was upset that my wife has a male friend and that made me flip out. WAW broke her hand over the weekend and I showed zero concern. Partly out of bitterness towards her, partly because I was focused on detaching. It's actually a pretty gruesome break and I showed very little concern or sympathy. Seeing all the stuff on here about OM made me expect the worse and I said some harsh statements to my WAW when I picked kids up from Doctor's office rather than even share any further sympathy. I made it about myself as I often times did.
Yesterday, however was a bit of a turning point. My son had a doctor appt that we all went to, and after the appt, WAW asked if I'd like to have lunch together with the family. I suggested that we bring lunch to the park and we wound up talking for close to 3 hours as the kids played. I made this conversation about her talking about the hurts that she had towards me. Validated like crazy, didn't get defensive, avoided arguments, and let her vent. She is aware that I am going to IC, and she seemed pleased with my responses and empathy. I tried to avoid R talk as much as possible, but there were some subtle mentions. When acknowledging my shortcomings, I told her, If God decides to bring us back together, you can be confident that it'll be different, because I will be different. I also made it a point to emphatically let her know without saying love, that I am fighting for our family and wear my ring because I am proud to be her husband. Some of these things may have been against the rules if you will, but she saw a much more confident man, but also a more sensitive man, and one that was willing to hear her feelings rather than just defend my position.
I have realized as a LBS I put too much focus early on on how I felt about her leaving, rather than what caused her to have to leave. It feels good. I still have no expectations, though I do have my vision as what I would like and hopefully in time that matches her vision. I get why she is wounded though and I think for the first time since splitting, she sees that I get it. I had asked her if maybe in 2 or 3 weeks we can all get together again as a family and she didn't say no.
I realizes she needs to breathe a bit away from me for now, and I will continue to let her heal from a distance as I try to show off my changes every chance that I get. I feel encouraged and thought that I would share.
My goodness. My WAW came over for kid exchange this AM. I picked her up something from Starbucks before she came and gave it to her. It's hard to see her in a good way. I'm so madly in love with her and it's hard to look at her without being tempted to tell her. Knowing that some of the things I did pushed her away is tough. Not beating myself up about it, but still miss that woman more than anything. She's going to be taking my D8 to a mother daughter retreat next week and will be completely isolated from everything. I'm praying that God touches her heart while she is there. She mentioned how tough it is to know the kids are making memories without her there. She also knows the love I have for her without even saying it. I realize her wall is up because she doesn't want to hurt again. Praying for a miracle and my God, it's hard to detach from the person that I want to spend the rest of my life with.
Patience...Mike....Patience
It's hard to see her in a good way. I'm so madly in love with her and it's hard to look at her without being tempted to tell her.
That's exactly how I feel. Hang in there. Know that there are others here who are going through exactly what you're going through.
Yeah...it's good knowing that there are many out there with the same feelings.
I have realized as a LBS I put too much focus early on on how I felt about her leaving, rather than what caused her to have to leave. It feels good. I still have no expectations, though I do have my vision as what I would like and hopefully in time that matches her vision. I get why she is wounded though and I think for the first time since splitting, she sees that I get it.
I'm new here and don't have much to offer in the way of advice, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I completely understand what you mean here. While I still disagree with my H's decision to move out, I see his perspective much more clearly now than I did before, and I understand better how my words and actions have wounded him. I'm glad that you were able to express that to your W and I hope she will give value to your words and to the space you are giving her to process them.
Long time no post. Been focusing on the steps and GAL. WAW and daughter are at a Christian Camp this week, and I have taken the week off to spend time with S6.
There were two significant conversations that I have had with WAW recently. The first one being this past Saturday. During a conversation, she posed the question? What would I do if she decides to begin dating? I really initially didn't know how to respond other than, is this your way of telling me that you are dating and you want my reaction? She said that she wasn't, that she just wants to know. Hard to really make much from that. Believe nothing said and half seen right?
So the next day, WAW came to house to pick up some stuff to take to camp. I asked if we could finish the conversation from previous night, and she was rushed so I said never mind. About 10 mins later she locked her keys in the car and called me, blaming me of all things, because she said since I made her rush out of my house. She was carrying a very negative and disrespectful tone towards me and it was in front of D8.
Immediately after helping her open the car, she called again complaining yet again about something and being critical of me in front of my daughter. I immediately hung up and sent her a text which said the following:
Been a bit too nice and accommodating. She snapped at me today in front of the kids today for no good reason...this is what I texted her after pulling away...
I DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TALKED TO BY ANYONE THE WAY I WAS BEING SPOKEN TO RIGHT NOW AND ESPECIALLY IN FRONT OF OUR CHILD! I AM A GOOD PERSON AND I EXPECT TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT AND NOT ATTACKED. EVERYTHING THAT GOES BAD IN YOUR LIFE IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY MY FAULT AND IT IS EXTREMELY UNFAIR TO ME THAT IS HOW I AM BEING AND CONSTANTLY BEING TREATED. YOU AREN'T ALWAYS THE VICTIM MEL, OTHER PEOPLE ARE IMPACTED BY YOUR WORDS TOO!
She immediately apologized via text and then I told her over text that if she begins a relationship or continues dating (if she has but hasn't owned up to it), then the guy can have her and I'll move on. That's my boundary. I realize that she may not consider us married right now, and I get that, but I also know I'm not doing to be anyone's back up plan, 2nd choice, etc.
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While I agree that a coach may be helpful, I also know that I am not going to sit back and watch my WAW begin dating. That is a boundary that I set and I intend to keep.
I also know that I am not going to sit back and watch my WAW begin dating. That is a boundary that I set and I intend to keep.
Explain, please.
What I mean by that is that our separation was one that was intended to be therapeutic and lead to reconciliation. For me, her dating another man is ultimately a deal breaker to me. It's one thing if she grabs a bite with a male friend, but quite a different thing if she begins a relationship with another man. To me it's a respect thing to both me and my children.
So it was with the understanding that there was no D on the table and the two of you would resume as usual after a period of time? Or did the two of you perhaps a different mindset? Was it actually agreed upon, or did you assume their would be a reconciliation?
Their have been several LBH's who have been told their WAW's OM was only a male friend. So don't be too shocked to find out this is the truth for your W.
If you are primarily supporting your W financially (even paying for her beauty shop appointments?) then she could have more than one reason to keep her separated life as private from you as possible. I'm not digging for something to make you feel worse, but this stitch is very common here on the board.
Be certain that you understand the definition of boundaries and how it works. An ultimatum and a boundary are not the same. Your boundaries are not used as a means to control her.
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Just b/c you say something is a boundary doesn't mean she is going to honor it. In other words, don't throw that word around thinking it will stop her in her tracks.
I think you will be tested more. Stay close to God b/c you'll need strength.
Sandi, that is exactly it. Our separation was a therapeutic separation her words not mine, designed to strengthen our relationship and help us to relearn some positive behaviors. Early on we started MC, but unfortunately, she stopped going as the counselor started identifying things that she may had done to push me away. We still were piecing at that stage but she got cold feet as she felt as though the relationship wouldn't change.
During these last few months, divorce has been something that she has talked about. It has come up during normal conversations and not just heated arguments.
So hearing dating come up is the ultimate sign that she is intending to move on. I don't put the boundary in place to control her. Rather it is one that I have established because I know I would hold it over her head, whether I would like to or not if she did date and then months or years later we reconciled.
Not to mention, if she began dating her friend that she has been bringing around our kids, it wouldn't send a healthy image to them either.
My wife has a difficult past, and I know that she bases her happiness/security on how others feel about her rather than from an internal self confidence or a spiritual sense of self worth from God.
I love my wife and I want my marriage and family restored. I however know that I have to establish my own line in the sand as to what I would tolerate and what I wouldn't. If she wants to move on I cannot stop her and I realize that. I also know that as I detach (maybe out of a position of pain), that I am strong enough and confident that I will weather the storm.
Like you said, I will be tested, and I will continue to pray for strength and lean on my faith.
Invited WAW to meet up at local park tonight to have early dinner and spend time with the kids and she accepted. At first she said no, but texted shortly after saying she changed her mind. It's for the kids, (she knows that they are having a tough time), but I'm still encouraged that she said yes.
Nice night for dinner. Low key. I spent more time talking with her as kids wanted to play. She talked and I spent much more time listening. Felt good just hearing her talk. No R talk, a little kid talk, but not much there either. I tried to end the evening before her, but she suggested we all get dessert so I accepted.
At the end of the evening (she had complained about her self esteem recently), I simply told her, by the way, you have no reason to have low self-esteem, you are beautiful inside and out. She responded with a simple thank you and a smile.
The 5 180's that I am working on this week:
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
I'll share personal progress on Friday as well as anything that WAW shows as a result.
Last night my D8 was having a very difficult night. She bottles up her anger and then she allows it explode at times. It's often directed at me, and last night she told me she only shares her thoughts about my stitch with me and not WAW. I asked her why, and she said that WAW never asks how she if feeling about everything.
I suggested that she begin journaling her thoughts and brought her a notepad to help her write down how she feels. She surprised me this morning by sharing a letter that she wanted to give to WAW about how she felt. I was hesitant to let her give the letter because the last thing I wanted WAW to think was that I was using my kids to get to her. However, I prayed on it and my daughter insisted that she give it to her. She included a picture of the house with my full family and all of our pets. It was pretty touching actually to me. This is what her letter said,
"Dear Mommy, I don't like when you guys are separated. It feels like you are not a family. It feels like we don't spend that much time with you and Pop. I want to be in the same house by Halloween. I am angry that we don't spend time with each other on weekends. Love, Jordynn"
Not sure if WAW will approach me about this at all. Not really expecting it, but if she does, I must remember to follow the rules and not let her draw me into a fight and validate any feelings that she may have.
The most important thing about all of this is that my D8 has been struggling expressing herself with WAW and not me, and at least this opens up healthy dialogue with Mommy and Daughter.
Just got a text from WAW. Very uncharacteristic of her. Said that she is feeling super down and to please say a quick prayer for her. I responded if there is anything specific she needed prayer on, and she only replied that there is a lot wrong, and that is why she is down and asking for prayer.
Wow...so here's what is going on. Almost unbelievable but based on what was told and the evidence shown, it's actually legit. Yesterday after WAW texted and said she needed prayer, she filled me in to what the specific request was. We spoke several times yesterday on phone and once in person. This past Saturday, she was assaulted by her friend the infamous OM. She admitted that he had feelings for her but she didn't reciprocate. She was at a BBQ with him and some other friends when he started going ballistic. Apparently he is on steroids and flashed some signs of anger and started a huge disturbance. She fled and went home. When she arrived home he showed up shortly afterwards and entered her apartment and started destroying property in there and threw her against a wall. She called the cops and they arrived shortly after and got him out of there.
During her version of the events, it was hard not to be upset for my own personal reasons, but I can see where the detachment helps, although it was a challenge. At one point, I mentioned my displeasure for the friendship but instantly said, "this isn't about me, let me know how you are feeling". I validated, tried to offer any comfort that I could, and listened cautiously to see if there was truth. From everything I was told, and the police report, it appeared as though she was being honest and not just looking for attention from me.
It's sad in many ways because of the pain she felt, but it also in many ways affirms the fact that none of this would've ever happened had she not left. Letting her be alone in her thoughts to process the event, but in the meantime, making sure that the kids stay with me. I mentioned several times that I didn't think that she was unstable, but them staying over there in the aftermath of what happened was unstable.
I woke up this morning, said a prayer for her to make sense of this moment, and honestly thought that I never looked better in her eyes, than I probably looked yesterday. It was a total 180 to how she more than likely expected me to respond. I think she expected me to say "I told you so" or get angry with her about it. I showed as much compassion as I could from a detached position. I also brought her a milkshake and fries when I picked the kids up from her as a surprise (her favorite combo). I rubbed her back a bit as she expressed her feelings, and she allowed it. It was natural and comforting in my mind and nothing romantic.
I'm very curious as to what this moment is going to do in her eyes. It's funny in a way. I had been praying for God to remove this person from her life. It's somewhat ironic in the way that he chose to do it. Considering her past history, it had to be a brutal wake up call.
These last few days have been very different than anything I could've imagined. I have been following the rules as close as possible but there have been moments where I have mentioned how much I care still. The depressed emotions that WAW has shown since being assaulted are so visible. I see how detachment helps as I know I cannot fix the situation, and this is all part of the journey that she chose when she left. If anything these last few days, have shown her that I honestly feel as though the changes I have made would have to make her a fool to leave, if she continued to push away.
I am in no way pursuing a relationship right now, but trying to provide comfort and show love in the way that she allows me to show it. This morning when she came to pick up my kids, we talked for about 30 mins. Validated her feelings like crazy and she even was relaxed enough to allow me to hold her hand as I comforted her.
She seems very numb and I cannot imagine what she is thinking as she processes the incidents. I will say that I have made it such a point to listen to her rather than talk and validate so that she knew I was listening. It's funny how God works in these moments. I feel so much growth in me and it excites me. In many ways, I see the strength I'm able to provide her now, vs. before when I'd have a tendency to make it about myself.
Life is beginning to change and it's all baby steps, but the interactions with myself and WAW are completely different. It's funny seeing how the assault changed her perspective on everything. This morning we spoke again for about 45 minutes in the driveway again. It's become a new routine, but one that is completely relaxed.
During the conversation today, she made a comment how she noticed how much I cared based on my reaction. She said that she saw that I made it about her and how I even caught myself momentarily making it about me, but how I noticed that and I immediately mentioned that "I am sorry, this isn't about me, but it is about you"
She commented also how the relationship with the two of us doesn't seem to have the roller coaster feel anymore and she specifically said with both of us, so it was good to see that she owned that she contributed to it as well. I had made a comment about how hard it would be to stand and fight for our marriage if she ever began dating and I would have to begin moving in a different direction. Immediately after saying that, she said, "like moving on?" She then reminded me that she wanted us to go to a local amusement park as a family this weekend. Today she also invited me to join her and the kids for lunch and although it was brief, it was a very good time and we had a good conversation.
These are all baby steps, but the thing I have seen is that these steps do work. I am going to continue to GAL and follow the steps and follow all of Sandi's steps still. I am reading the steps in DR as what to do if the WAW begins responding to LRT and follow that closely to look for signs. I can see how I can immediately feel the impulse to want to just jump in head first, but I will continue to remember to take baby steps.
Well, what a difference a day makes. Un-freaking-believable. WAW went to the beach today with my kids and the OM and his son. The same OM that she called the cops on a week ago for assaulting her. I found out through my daughter right before they left.
I backtracked. I texted several times. I've left a few voicemails. I wasn't as detached as I thought. Had everything that happened not happened, I would have been ok. I had drawn that boundary, that she knows about, regarding this relationship progressing. I cannot fathom why anyone would willingly put themselves back into that position if there wasn't more than meets the eye.
The thing is, I had a gut feeling. She mentioned the other day that he called her and explained that his diabetes caused outbursts like that and she sounded very forgiving and accepting of that after the fact.
The fact is though, I put myself out there for comfort towards her, and then we spent a ton of time together and talking after that had all happened and it seemed good. There's quite a few details that makes me see the light now, but at the time, I didn't process it in that way. I had asked her yesterday when she mentioned the whole diabetes thing to her if she would be spending any time with him again and she replied, "Oh I don't know" Knowing that there was nothing definative in the reaction should have been the clue that I needed. The fact that she didn't rule it out immediately should have been the sign that I needed. She had even told me how she justified the reaction on his diabetes to her best friend (who has been weary of OM as well).
I can now see so much clearer as to how she rationalizes her poor choices to gain approval or acceptance. However, after all of this, I am beyond upset. In a text, I just told her to be honest with me and tell me the truth as to what is going on. I know the truth and most reading do too. However, I just want the respect of her to admit it, so that she has to say it.
I have been angry about this all day, and I guess the anger serves as a good way to detach, but my heart is hardening as I type this.
I have never heard of diabetes causing that type of anger outburst (assault, destroying property, etc.). I have, however, heard that steroids can certainly have that affect. I have also been a witness to both side effects over extended time, FWIW.
It sounds as if he "used" his disease to gain sympathy and a free pass from your W. B/c people are more forgiving of a disease with bad side effects, right? At the same time, a person addicted to steroids would not gain the same degree of forgiveness b/c taking the drug is a choice. Plus, much as been exposed to public awareness about side effects of steroids.
Your W is apparently not familiar with either "condition". It would be wise of her to gain information about long term steroid use.
Ouch Mike, that is really tough. Sorry to see that reversal.
My FIL is an advanced diabetic, I've known him for 20 years and he has never had an anger outburst because of his diabetes. Never have I heard that diabetes causes anger outbursts. Never. Completely untrue.
OM is flat out lying to her and that's a hard position for YOU to be in. I would not be ok with my kids being around a man like that and I would make that boundary known. If he can't keep his health on track to mitigate his so-called "diabetes induced outbursts" then perhaps he needs an in-home nurse.
Oh the lies.
Thanks guys. I agree that it is a complete crock and that he was looking for sympathy. I am honestly at the point in my R that I don't want to continue to pursue. I am still going to follow the DB techniques because it's an emotion right now, but WAW is not acting rationally and even her emotions seem to lack an equilibrium.
Today I told her exactly how I felt about the coast trip and she saw how angry I was about it. Trying to establish a boundary is going to be a difficult thing right now, but it is one I will establish for my children.
It is difficult dealing with someone with a victim mentality. She swore up and down that he is only a friend, but at this point, it really doesn't matter.
Long week. Big fight early in the week when I mentioned the anger I had about WAW bringing a male around my kids. WAW mentioned that they are only friends and swore up and down, why would I lie? She said that she told me that she wanted to move on, didn't see us being married in the future, and why would she tell me that stuff but be afraid of telling me the truth about a relationship. I understand her thoughts, but still somewhat skeptical.
She threatened to file papers this week and sell her rings to pay for it, but when I pushed the issue more, she didn't. She knows that I am always there for her. She spends time in my house some mornings when she helps kids get ready before school and is very friendly to me.
I am going to go back to the LRT steps I was taking but got sidetracked with OM being part of the picture. This weekend, developing a plan for detachment is my goal.
why would she tell me that stuff but be afraid of telling me the truth about a relationship.
Why don't you know that a WAW always says OM is "just a friend"?
If you were fighting about him being around your kids, she knew it would be less conflict to just tell you they are friends.
You can't argue with crazy.
Mike .. I completely relate. My W OM is a personal trainer .. she introduced him to our S a month after she moved out as "A friend" and had his kids and mine together as "play dates" ... that deep down betrayal not only of the relationship .. but also of the family unit has no stronger pull on our emotions. Later she finally confirmed my suspicions ... not that it made things better other than to confirm I was not crazy.
You have to go LTR .... and most of all the hardest part is the detachment phase, my advice .. what worked for me .. find a GAL activity that you actually can sink your teeth into. Something that you look forward to because of the release you get from all the emotional stress this sitch has found you in ... just remember .. you did not ask for this, go do you for a bit. The A between your WAW and the OM has to run its course. She needs to end it ... and not be able to use you as the excuse that would further justify her actions.
Thinking about it will just make you crazy. Also Sandi2 I have a new post and have been following your advice could you take a look a let me know how I am doing?
What I failed to acknowledge is that WAW doesn't view us as being in a relationship anymore. I look at us as still being married. She looks as us as being broken up. She has moved on and remembering from other posts that I saw, any relationship that develops between the two of us will be a new relationship.
This weekend, I will commit to the LRT principles and commit to fully detaching. The hardest part of it all is knowing that there is OM, but I have been in relationships before when an ex-girlfriend started to date again and I have been ok with that.
I will post my progress daily and also any events that occur. The last time I attempted this stage, WAW seemed to draw in, although in my mind, it seemed to be to see if she stil had a pull on me.
Another strange turn of events, is that a former friend of WAW, sent me a message via social media, about getting together for a coffee. This is someone that WAW had a huge falling out with years ago, and I am confident that this woman is trying to get under WAWs skin. I'm not going to do anything with it, but part of me wants to tell WAW. I won't, however, I still am tempted.
Mike,
Your WAW has the same view as mine. I will be following you and hope I can get some insight or add insight. Not sure what else to write. wishing you strength and perseverance. Good luck.
And
Hey and, I will follow your posts as well. The more support the better.
Do you think that it is a healthy boundary for me to set by me telling her that I will not do any family activities with her as long as OM is part of the picture. I feel as tho it confuses the kids, seeing her with me occasionally and then seeing her with OM occasionally. On the surface it looks as though we have an open relationship, even if they are too young to realize it.
I do not know what to do in that situation. If your only time with your kids is then, I know I could not sacrifice that time. I think there are much wiser minds on this forum who have been down this road. They may have answers or suggestions on what to do with setting boundaries. I know of people who added caveats like this to separation agreements. Not sure if it has worked.
I get my kids 50% of the time, but lately, they have been asking to do more stuff as a family. I love those moments, and so do the kids. The more I think of it, it comes off as an ultimatum.
I spent a few hours reading articles on detachment yesterday and also did a few exercises on it. Starting to get a much better idea of what it actually is to detach. The thing about detachment that I failed to implement was keeping a safe emotional distance from my WAW.
This weekend was by far my best weekend with my kids since this situation developed. No texts/calls to WAW, with the exception of one that I sent yesterday re: counseling for my children. I am going to try to go dark (as much as I can with kids), and just focus on moving forward. Not sure if I will ever have a new relationship with WAW, but I will have a great one with my kids.
Yesterday, I took my kids to a fun place in town to play laser tag, go on waterslides, drive go carts, bumper boats, etc. They had so much fun and it was great seeing them smile.
Trying to stay level and continuing to detach has been helping. Can't go as dark as I'd like because of my kids, but trying to focus all conversations about kids. Last weekend was difficult with my S and D. Daughter was upset about separation and she cut a big chunk of her hair out. It's tough seeing them struggle to process, yet it makes me realize how strong they need me to be.
This morning (5:45am) to be exact, WAW came to drop off kids and saw me outside on the phone. She got visibly bothered, and asked who I was talking to when I hung up. She then responded with, "Do you tell everyone what is going on?" Must be an ego/guilt thing, as I was talking to a friend 2 time zones ahead that will be in CA for business next week and wants to get together.
I saw the silliness in the potential argument and just kept my PMA and gave no ammo for an argument.
Ahhh---what a fun life this is. So yesterday after the kid drop off, WAW came back over a few hours later to help daughter comb hair. She helped herself to some breakfast and it was quite surreal. Felt like we lived in the same house for that hour that she was there.
There was a conversation with the two of us that bordered on an argument. She was upset that our Daughter doesn't open up to her and only opens up to me. She asked D why, and D said that she doesn't feel comfortable opening up. Many more details about the conversation, but it's one of those situations that would take several paragraphs to read.
A few hours later a mutual friend of us both invited us via a facebook message to a marriage seminar at our church. Because the message was sent to both of us, I saw her reply and she said No, I'm done. I'm emotionally exhausted. Blamed me for her having no self esteem and low self worth and said if I had dealt with my issues for our marriage earlier, she would've been willing to make things work.
After seeing her response, I validated via text message that I was sorry that she felt that way and if she reconsidered, I would go to to the class. She called me immediately afterwards, talked for about 30 minutes, reminded me of what I did to hurt her, and although 25 minutes of the conversation went well, the last 2 or 3 did not. I made a comment that during a very rough time in her life I gave her an outpouring of love when people in her family were doing anything but. She took offense to that and hung up.
A few hours later, I had to go to an appointment at the bank because we were looking to refi our home this winter, but now foreclosure is a very possible reality. She knew of my appointment, and called me afterwards to which I didn't answer and texted her that I didn't feel like talking.
This morning she calls, makes some phony excuses about wanting to discuss school supplies, but then begins to probe me about what I did last night. I told her I went on a drive to the mountains and walked around and then she asked if she could help out by making a Costco run and getting anything that I may need???
Two hours later I get a text from her (that I didn't reply to) saying, "Hope your OK, will pray for you" What in the world is this? Guilt, playing a mind game, I have no clue??? I know that she cares about me and is beginning to see the consequences if things continue like this. I just don't get it.