Went over 100 posts so here's another. Last threads can be found below if you are really bored, it's been a ride. Goal during next 100 posts is to continue to work on me and really start living MY life.
Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3 Not a whole lot new to report since my last post several days ago. I'm still doing pretty good emotionally. The D interrogatories are a complete PITA but whatever, it keeps me busy at night
. Seriously though I've spent a lot of the last several days deep diving my fears. It's been eye opening. I've realized that many of my actions in life (both good and bad) have been driven by a fear of something. The thing is I've honestly never thought about the outcome of the fear itself. When I look at it this way the fears themselves aren't near as scary. Heck many of my fears have come true and I honestly feel better about who I am now than I have in a long time, maybe ever. I realize the fears that have really been holding me back and stirring unhealthy emotions are just feelings that I can control. Controlling them is much easier when I think about the actual outcome. I see that no matter what the fear, I'm able to get through any outcome and will likely come out learning something and growing in some way. This is huge for me if fear can't control my emotions or actions. Hope that makes sense because to me it's been a liberating discovery (only because of these boards, not sure why I waste money on IC's
). It's a new revelation and I'm excited to see how this changes me. Already has in a couple different things.
I guess the other thing to note is lately I'm replaying discussions W and I have. I'm not beating myself up over them or anything like that, just reflecting on what was said. The real news here is last several I can recall her points and understand many of them. This is big for me. As some of you might remember, one of my real problems was listening. We'd get done with a discussion or argument and I wouldn't be able to tell you what the heck she said but I knew exactly what I said. My habit then was to wait for a moment in the discussion that I could bring up my next point and just work down my list with no real care for what she was saying (so bad I know). I think this would then lead her to shutdown because she knew I wasn't listening. Now I'm listening more and she's talking more, funny how that works. I won't lie, it's still hard for me to really understand some of it and some things I feel are just wrong but I'm making an effort not to argue them or defend myself but instead trying to understand. Still have more work to do on this but getting better. Other thing is she's starting to say "you're a lot better now", or "you've gotten much better at that recently". I guess I'll take that as a positive. Before I would be so excited for her to say anything like that, now while it's nice to hear it doesn't really affect me much because I know I'm better. It's nice not needing her to validate me anymore.
New book I'm reading is Battlefield of the Mind by Joyce Meyer. It basically discusses what's in my signature (don't believe everything you think) from a religious context. Mainly the spiritual warfare side. Pretty interesting read, if you're into religious themed books.
New threads, symbolize new life, new growth, new focus, and embracing change...
Spartan sounds good. Listening is a must skill set to have and I am working in this area for personal growth. One thing that works for me is to stop all distractions. I will literally tell my W hold on I want to listen give me 1 second or lets pause the TV so I can listen without distractions.
Also there is a fine line. I use to defend myself but found that behavior was just fueling the fire. If there was something she said that I absolutely just did not agree with I would let her know. At the end of the day your W is telling you her feelings which are NEVER wrong because it is how she feels. So listening without speaking even if you don't agree is a good idea. It lets her speak. It is all about not reacting.
My W would tell me you don't help out around the house right after I came downstairs from folding laundry, making beds, making breakfast, taking trash out, and feeding dogs. I'm like seriously. I would defend myself and she would go to the next character flaw. You don't listen etc.. It's like they have a list they work off to justify themselves leaving.
Keep doing what you are doing. Keep working on yourself and taking the focus off her. Remember and I know it is hard. No expectations. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Detach. Detaching does not mean being an azzhole. I had a ton of trouble understanding this. Continue to GAL. Go out with friends and even GAL with kids. Do something with the kids that she would NEVER do. For me it was hiking and skiing.
Spartan, you gave me a laugh this morning because many of my conversations with H were like that-I don't care what you have to say...I HAVE A LIST!
You can also look at fear as a friend because you will always have fear and now you can see it as a signal that growth is about to occur.
I think don't believe everything you think is a great motto because a lot of what we think is a judgment of the rightness of wrongness of the actions of others.
Not our sandbox.
Spartan, you gave me a laugh this morning because many of my conversations with H were like that-I don't care what you have to say...I HAVE A LIST!
Just spit out my coffee. ME, ding ding ding!! Of all my 180s, listening is my HARDEST! I've been working on repeating exactly what he says, while he says it. Last night he was done talking. We stared at each other for about 10 seconds, and he goes "So, you have nothing to say?!" I said "No, I was just making sure you were done." His eyes bugged out "Wow, just wow. Thanks, babe!" Sometimes it's like it's killing me to listen to him without blurting out MY LIST!!!!
Oh, and the fear thing. Ahhh. There is a saying in a program I go to. FEAR, False emotions appearing real. Yep, it's amazing what we can let fear control. Good for you!
You can always use things like "This is what I heard you say, is that correct?"
Or when there's a break, "Before we move on I want to make sure I heard you."
Good stuff Spartan. I remember thinking thru conversations hours later, replaying in my head how I listened, what I heard, how I spoke. Part of my process and it seems, yours too.
Looking back I think the big shift in me happened when she had a PA 8 years ago and we never really resolved the hurt I felt. I've been afraid to trust her since then. At least through all this I did bring it up during one of our talks and let her know how much it hurt. Not much of a response from her but I honestly felt better and it felt like a huge weight was lifted off me. For some strange reason I felt like that helped me get over it if that makes any sense.
More parallels. My W had a sexting EA about 6-7 years ago, and we never addressed the "why did it happen" or the "how do we heal from it." We just swept it under the rug and trudged thru it. That was really the beginning of the end in my mind, because not only did I not become a better H, my insecurities became reality and I became worse. I never healed and I drove my W further and further away due to fear.
I was able to let it go thru true forgiveness. When I really did forgive my W, I noticed an almost instant change in myself. Anger was replaced with understanding and compassion, I didn't bring it up when we got into fights, my "scorecard" was erased.
Spartan, your W acknowledging how you're a better man makes a difference in the R. At least you get feedback on how your changes are being perceived. Good news!
Keep working on yourself. This is what DBing is about!
Journaling:
Had a really good weekend. W left work early Friday night so she could join kids and I for dinner (she texted me asking about dinner). W had kind of a rough day at work and we talked about it right when we sat down. I kept eye contact and really listened and emphasized with how she was feeling. She ended up carrying the conversation which is rare, and nice. She seemed to relax after we chatted and then had good time with a lot of laughs (S4 was being hilarious). Felt like old times.
Saturday I went to a conference with friends but I had no idea what the topic was, buddy asked and I said sure. It was a men's conference and the topic was "No Regrets, Transformed". I sat in 7 hours of conferences discussing how God can change us to be the men he intends us to be. One speakers entire talk was about God allowing trials in our lives to allow us to transform. He also said if we really want to change people in our lives the easiest way is to change ourselves and see how they react. Another speaker was an ex-mob guy who admittedly had every character flaw you can have and he discussed how he's been changed and the impact it had on his life, his family, and his M. The entire day seemed like everything we talk about here with a religious context.
Sunday family went to church which also was having a Super Bowl party. It was fun but I got dragged out in cold to run one of the tailgate grills for a little bit. We spent rest of day together. Got a good workout in at gym then we took kids swimming. Finished up eating tons of junk food and watching Super Bowl together. W usually stops watching at half but sat next to me the entire game.
Overall a fun weekend and biggest accomplishment in my opinion is first time in long time with absolutely no D talk or reference. She even asked about S4's B-day party in late March. I guess I'll continue doing what I'm doing, have a couple GAl things this week/ weekend along with a few family things. With W I'll continue my 180's (especially the listening one) and not get hopes up because I know what's happened every time I have. Just enjoying these times for what they are.
Spartan. Awesome. Take the focus and pressure off her. Keep being a friend and keep working on you. Way to change the dynamics
Spartan, I'm so happy to see your progress. Keep up the good work. I think you attended that conference for a reason--it was just what you needed. Stay strong, and stay connected to your spiritual self.
Awesome!! That conference sounded great!
Good for you. Will take page from your book. Take time with H when I can, and not sweat the stuff I can't change
S4 had a little homework project where he has to put together a board showing our family traditions. W and I worked on finding pictures for him of various things we've done over the years. It was fun for a while and W and I were laughing and reminiscing about things and then about 20 minutes in a thought popped in my head of all these family traditions possibly ending. It's odd because my W seemed to get quiet just before I did so wonder if she thought the same thing (or could have just been gas, who knows what a WAS is thinking
). We spent another couple minutes getting last photos picked out. The last few minutes were pretty tough for me and my insides were torn up but the good news is the feelings lasted only a couple minutes and I didn't say or do anything stupid and not one tear was shed. I even tried to make a few jokes and small talk with W when I noticed her being quiet. I was happy I realized it was just a thought and was able to get control of it before it took hold in my head. Just a few weeks/ months ago that would no doubt have happened with best case me moping around and being sad the rest of night, worst case me starting to cry or bring up photos and her decision to tear our family apart. W seemed a little preoccupied the rest of night though.
I even tried to make a few jokes and small talk with W when I noticed her being quiet
Why?
Spartan if you don't think you W felt that anxiety thought you are wrong. Law of attractions. If you think your M will will end, it will. Every human on this planet vibrates at certain frequency. You ever have a friend or a person enter a room and it is an instant "downer". There is a reason for that. They vibrate at negative frequency. Just saying.
As LA stated. If your W goes quiet. Sense it and find an excuse to get busy. Clean garage. Play guitar. Go do push ups.
The fact that we can align ourselves with a higher energy field is true. Agree with PoN. That said, I think you did well, Spartan, considering how tough that moment must've been for the two of you. It's okay to acknowledge that the whole picture ordeal is hard, though. Your W might open up about her own feelings and feel a connection. Be authentic but also show that you value yourself and are strong and optimistic.
You did great Spartan. The whole thing can be draining. It can be hard. I can guarantee your W is hurting. She might cry every night behind closed doors. Keep moving forward. Your doing great and try not to 'react' to any surprises
After I read your posts and thought more about the night I think I may have written it a little backwards. W got quiet first and when I noticed is when I started thinking and got down. Not sure if that's any better since I let her energy change my attitude but I'm still pleased overall how I handled it. I see there is more room for growth (not let it affect me at all) but I'm happy I was able to get it out of my head quickly. Always more work to do
Bug/ Tori,
When I started thinking last night it did cross my mind to say something but decided not to because I didn't want to seem like I was pressuring a talk or anything like that. Hopefully one day we'll get to that point but I'm trying to take everything real slow right now and give her space and just be friends. That's why I tried to make a few jokes about a few pictures to act 'as if' it wasn't bugging me rather than sit there in total silence.
Great job Spartan. Let her come to you. Me and W still haven't talked about the past. She makes subtle little jokes about it. Like "you had it better in the spareroom" referring to our kids crawling into bed with us etc.. Just keep focusing on you and watch the dynamics change.
Still treading along with theme being just to be friends with W. She has been joining us for most everything lately. Could be she's just being nice before cruise but it doesn't really matter, better than the alternative.
We got almost 5 inches of snow last night and W had to work early shift. I woke up at 5:30 this AM and instead of P90x (or XBOX) I went outside and cleaned her car and shoveled everything. She was pretty surprised and sent me text later.
Have daddy/ daughter dance tonight that I'm REALLY excited about. Got D7 a hair appointment at the spa before the dance so they can get her hair done up (for some reason she was concerned with how I would do her hair
). D7 bought a new pink dress from Justice that she can't wait to wear. To do a complete 180 I bought a bright pink and purple tie that matches her dress. D7 and W were shocked to see it and still not sure they believe I'll wear it. I rarely wear ties and when I do nothing like that. Letting more of my fun/ goofy side out. W asked about meeting up after dance (her and D4 are going out to dinner) for dessert. Should be a fun night.
Next book to start this weekend is Codependant No More. Finished up Battlefield of Mind and The Happiness Trap this week.
That sounds great. I really like that you are breaking out of the mold, trying to be goofy and enjoy it.
I'm in the middle of Codependent No More still (read some this past weekend). It makes me think even when I only read a few pages at a time.
Enjoy the dance!
"Could be she's just being nice before cruise but it doesn't really matter, better than the alternative."
Still mind reading a little here. I know it is hard. I always thought my W is going to D me right after vacation, right after thx giving, right after xmas, right after her birthday, right after she takes a dump, right after etc...
You are doing great Spartan. I am psyched for you. Keep up the good work
Yes, live this day, let tomorrow take care of itself.
Journaling…
It’s been over a week since I updated my sitch so here goes. W and I are treading along being friends and having a good time. I have to say there is more laughter in the house the last couple weeks than there has been in years. It’s just a feeling of calm which is tough to explain with the D hanging overhead, just not letting it affect things. Daddy/ daughter dance was a blast, D7 is still talking about it. I’ve been talking with church director this week about setting one up later in the year. W and I have had no R talk in weeks and to be quite honest I’m not looking for one, I’ve been so busy working on myself that I’m not ready for any talks. We leave for family cruise in a couple days so busy getting ready for that. Everyone seems really excited for it and I think my mind is in right place to truly enjoy it without expectations. On flip side the D is still going through process, in fact I just turned in the huge stack of interrogatories. Next court date is set for 3/12.
So, onto some updates about me because that’s really what’s it about
. Over last couple weeks, with the help of a good friend who seems to be able to read my mind and know the next layer to peel, I have really started digging deep and looking at myself. I was finding out a lot about myself through the process but seems like everything is clicking together now and I’m really getting things and feel like I’m doing it for the right reason, me. Also been reading a lot of old posts on here from the super vets, they didn’t use 2x4’s back in the day, they hit each other with sledge hammers which is more my style of learning. I digress…I’ll list some of the highlights that we’ve uncovered. The biggest outcome of it all (in case you don’t want to read the entire post and just want to know where I am now) is that I’m finally happy with who I am and who I’m truly becoming and I don’t feel need to get approval or feel like I have to do things. The things I’m doing now are because I want to do them.
FearThis was a tough one to think about but got the ball rolling. I realized that fear actually was controlling many of my decisions and turned me into someone I never wanted to be. I never thought about what it would mean if the fear I had ever came true, I just let the fear itself consume me and it changed the way I acted and saw things. It also turned me into a very negative person because you can’t live in fear and stay positive. This in turn caused many negative things to happen (laws of attraction). Funny that almost every single thing I was trying not to let happen in my life actually happened… I realize that many of the fears I had have come true and guess what, I not only made it through but I’m learning from them and getting stronger. I won’t let fear control me any longer.
Obligation This was another big one that I had never thought about before. To bottom line it I realize almost everything I’ve done in my life was out of an obligation I felt. A lot of time no one put that on me but I just felt I had to do things either to get someone’s approval/ not let them down, or because I felt like I should. There are very few things I can think of that I did just because I wanted to. We deep dove many of the root causes and many come from my own upbringing with dad leaving early… Couple examples include: feeling like I had to help raise my little brother instead of just being a kid, many of the sports I played growing up, even proposing to W because we had dated 5 years and it seemed like I should even though I wasn’t sure, … it’s a long list. I’m leaving the feeling of having to do things for others behind me and I’m just doing the healthy things I want to do.
LoveDiscussed what I thought love and R’s should look like. Here’s another I had never really thought about and truth be told I had no idea what love even was. I can see some of you (especially the women) just shake your head to think a 38 year old man had never thought about what love actually meant but it’s the truth. Growing up I never really saw a healthy relationship (most family was D’d or widowed) so I thought as long as I gave my W a comfortable life and was faithful that was my job, boy I missed the boat there… I’ m slowly starting to figure this one out.
Changes being realI was hung up on trying to show my W that I was changed rather than just being changed because it’s what I want to do. My end behavior isn’t necessarily different but reasoning behind it is. I can now say it feels real and I’m not acting any more. I’m not doing the 180’s because the book said it will save my M, I’m doing them because I need to because I was an idiot for most of my life. I see that you have to do these changes for you and not to save your M or for someone else. Unless they’re for me they will not stick and are done for the wrong reason. In one of old threads the analogy of a shirt (jacket actually but I like shirt better) was used. Paraphrasing terribly but hopefully you get the point; our changes can’t be like a shirt. We put the shirt on and it looks good to everyone but when you get home you take the shirt off. Eventually someone will see your skin without the shirt on. The changes have to be your skin and be you. I also updated my list of things I want to show the world every day, the things that will be my skin.
Like I said before, I’m finally happy with whom I am but I see just how much more work there is left to do. I think with all this internal work I’ve also taken a lot of pressure off my M and off my W. This is a lot to take in in a relatively short time so I have to prove to myself that I’m living it day in and day out. I can’t expect my W to believe it yet because I’m still making sure and I know what’s in my head. It’s all about the actions one day at a time and ya know what…I’m enjoying my days again.
Good for you, Spartan.
Good friends are good to have.
Damn dog you get it. Keep working on yourself. Keep making connections. Keep getting support because as adults we often forget to get support for ourselves.
Thanks guys, I'm really feeling good about myself. As long as I keep feeling that, the future will be just fine.
It's funny how I kept reading, posting, and thinking I was getting it but I wasn't really. Don't get me wrong, I was showing signs of improvement but they weren't for the right reasons. Up until last few weeks I was doing things with goal of saving M. Now I'm really looking at myself and doing things because I want to, for me. Don't get me wrong, I still want to R my M but it's no longer driving my actions.
Good stuff Spartan
So true on the changes, I think at first we're all just "wearing the shirt" thinking "if I do X, Y and Z changes then she'll come back to me". At some point we realize they're not the quick fix we hoped for, so we have to choose a path, either give up on them and revert to old ways or do the hard work it takes to embrace the changes for ourselves instead of for our spouses. If we choose the latter, the changes take real root and become part of us, and they are no longer 180's.
Sounds really good Spartan. I'm glad you are digging into your deep issues and working on yourself. I remember going thru that same calmness. That said, even when I started to get to that point, I'd still get upset about the pending D...it's only in the last few weeks that I've gotten ok with whatever may come. I only mention this so that maybe you can pinpoint those areas where you're still not completely calm and tackle them before they get in your way.
When's that cruise? You guys have got to be in the final countdown aren't you?
Up until last few weeks I was doing things with goal of saving M. Now I'm really looking at myself and doing things because I want to, for me. Don't get me wrong, I still want to R my M but it's no longer driving my actions.
That's awesome! I've been saying for a while now, DB is for you...saving the M is just a potential side effect.
When's that cruise? You guys have got to be in the final countdown aren't you?
Leave on Saturday. Kids are bouncing off the walls this week. Truth be told I'm also really excited for it. Little different then I was couple weeks ago huh... One of the themed events is a pirate party so after work going to store and buying pirate gear for whole family as a little surprise, and I always wanted to wear an eye patch
Wow an eye patch huh?
too bad it won't coincide with national Talk Like a Pirate Day.
Leave on Saturday. Kids are bouncing off the walls this week. Truth be told I'm also really excited for it. Little different then I was couple weeks ago huh... One of the themed events is a pirate party so after work going to store and buying pirate gear for whole family as a little surprise, and I always wanted to wear an eye patch
That's awesome!! You guys are going to have a blast. Just remember to enjoy the moment!
Spartan,
Just dropping by with a few thoughts...and if you have read anything I've written, you can start shaking now LOL...
Fear
This was a tough one to think about but got the ball rolling. I realized that fear actually was controlling many of my decisions and turned me into someone I never wanted to be. I never thought about what it would mean if the fear I had ever came true, I just let the fear itself consume me and it changed the way I acted and saw things. It also turned me into a very negative person because you can’t live in fear and stay positive. This in turn caused many negative things to happen (laws of attraction). Funny that almost every single thing I was trying not to let happen in my life actually happened… I realize that many of the fears I had have come true and guess what, I not only made it through but I’m learning from them and getting stronger. I won’t let fear control me any longer.
I love your reference to the Law of Attraction. I am a huge believer in it. As well as the idea of the Butterfly Effect.
I am glad you don't want to allow fear control you anymore. I am curious though...
What does that look like to you?
It isn't as simple as saying it because that makes it sound like you are now going to try again to control your fears...
The fears, will always be there about one thing or another. It is normal and natural to have fear.
What you do, how you react to those fears is what counts.
So what is your plan when they do decide to rear their ugly head?
Love
Discussed what I thought love and R’s should look like. Here’s another I had never really thought about and truth be told I had no idea what love even was. I can see some of you (especially the women) just shake your head to think a 38 year old man had never thought about what love actually meant but it’s the truth.
I can promise you that you are not the only one who hasn't thought about this.
Most people don't have any idea what love means or looks like to them. They don't understand love languages or how to express love so that it is recognized as love by another person.
They think by simply saying the words and having a physical relationship, that is enough. While it may be enough on a logical level, on an emotional level, it often doesn't translate.
Honestly, it is something that I have come to believe is pretty fluid. It changes over time as we change. What love is, how we define it, doesn't necessarily change, but how we show it, feel it, receive it, and express to our partners that we need more, or less, or different, changes. Sometimes it is just a matter of learning how to define and describe it.
How do you define it now?
How are you showing it? Or how will you show it?
Changes being real
I was hung up on trying to show my W that I was changed rather than just being changed because it’s what I want to do.
This is HUGE.
Personally, I hate the idea of 180's because it leads to the idea that we should change only the things our S's complained about and that gives us the sense it will make everything better. And that if we "act as if" or "wear the shirt" long enough, then we will eventually become what our S's want.
The problem with that is some of the changes we don't really want to make so no matter how long we act "as if", they won't stick.
The changes have to be for YOU. They have to be things that you really want to change. Sometimes they fall in line with our S's complaints. Sometimes they don't.
If the changes are real and they are for you, they will show through.
Like I said before, I’m finally happy with whom I am but I see just how much more work there is left to do.
Yes, you are only at the beginning. The beginning of a journey that will, hopefully, last a lifetime.
Have fun on the cruise. Keep yourself in check. Wear your friend on your shoulder and hear the words you will probably need to hear while you are away. And let us know how it goes.
I do want to touch on one other thing that you have mentioned many times in other posts...
You have talked about being your W's friend. That is what you feel like right now. Do you realize that friendship, should be the basis of any good and solid relationship? That it isn't a bad thing for you to become friends with her again?
It doesn't mean that reconciliation is a guaranteed outcome, but it is a first step in any relationship and in a couple's relationship, it is an extremly important part to maintain.
It's funny how I kept reading, posting, and thinking I was getting it but I wasn't really. Don't get me wrong, I was showing signs of improvement but they weren't for the right reasons. Up until last few weeks I was doing things with goal of saving M. Now I'm really looking at myself and doing things because I want to, for me. Don't get me wrong, I still want to R my M but it's no longer driving my actions.
Seems like you and I are very much on the same page as this is the exact attitude I have had since Christmas. Once I changed the focus changes at home in general began occurring much quicker. I can't say for sure if anything has truly changed the M sitch, but, everybody in the house is getting along better and actually being more positive about the future.
I hope it is in your sitch as well!!!
Cat - Thanks for taking a look at my thread and posting. Yes I have read many of the old threads you've posted in and I won't lie, I puckered up just a little when I saw your name in my thread but I'm very happy to see it
.
So what is your plan when they do decide to rear their ugly head?
One thing I realize is I can't control fear, as you said all I can control is how I react to that thought. The book 'The Happiness Trap' discusses the concept of ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) which discusses many concepts for either diffusing negative thoughts (which fear is) or accepting that they are there and letting them pass. Instead of dwelling on the fear and letting it affect my attitude or decision making process I expect to acknowledge it's there but not let that alone direct me. I'll look at the potential outcome of my choice and if it's healthy I will proceed, whether I'm afraid of something or not.
For example: in past I've let things bother me that I don't bring up with someone because the fear of confronting them stopped me. Guess what, I then became resentful to them and something little festers into something ugly. If I would have looked at outcomes I would have realized that one of 3 things could happen, (1) I say my peace and they understand and life goes on, (2) I say my peace, they don't understand and may get upset for a little bit and life goes on, or (3) I don't say anything, the issue festers and a blow up occurs later. Fear drove me to (3) way too many times but I wouldn't have chosen that if I would have thought it through first. Obviously this is all good theoretically, I just have to start living it and I'm taking steps since realizing it the last couple weeks.
How do you define it (love) now?
How are you showing it? Or how will you show it?
This means a lot of things to me now which I wish I would have thought about earlier in life. Problem is I honestly wasn't ready earlier in my life to "get it".
Love (with regards to W): It means to listen, understand, and emphasize with her feelings. It means not trying to control her but to let her live her life. It means to support her and build her up rather than break her down. It means being honest, faithful, and open with her. It means to forgive the past and hold no grudges and keep no scorecards. It means to trust her. It means putting her needs ahead of my own while keeping healthy boundaries for myself. It means to not give up on her
The changes have to be for YOU. They have to be things that you really want to change. Sometimes they fall in line with our S's complaints. Sometimes they don't.
In my opinion the last sentence doesn't get discussed enough. Many of the changes our spouses complain about are likely flaws with us and are things that need to be changed to make us better but some aren't. Almost every thread (and I'm guilty of it too) talks only about what we need to change to make our spouses happy. Well guess what, some things she wants me to change won't, or haven't, made me happy and I'm done with that. Not to play the victim card here, because I decided to do them, but a lot of my changes during my life have been done for her or others approval and were never real to me. Now I'm learning who I am and I'm doing the healthy things that I want to do (i.e. acting like a kid with my S4 having a sword fight while talking like pirates in the store last night
). This isn't out of spite or going against what anyone wants just to rebel, it's doing things that make me happy and be the man I want to be. Oh yeah little side note, W showed up at store and saw us fighting with wigs and pirate hats on and started laughing like crazy. This is definitely more like the person I used to be so maybe being the person I want to be will end up being who she wants. Hopefully yes but if not I'm ok with it as long as I'm true to myself.
Do you realize that friendship, should be the basis of any good and solid relationship? That it isn't a bad thing for you to become friends with her again?
It doesn't mean that reconciliation is a guaranteed outcome, but it is a first step in any relationship and in a couple's relationship, it is an extremely important part to maintain.
This is an emphatic YES and I'm hoping we can become best friends again. Over the years our friendship deteriorated, along with our M, and we became more co-parents living together. When I bring up being friends I'm not implying that this is a negative in any way. While I'm REALLY hoping to move to the 'friends with benefits' phase soon
I'm not at all upset to be friends with her again. She has recently said that we have always been great friends but it's the other BS that gets in the way of the M so D is the answer. My previous response was to say that being friends should be the basis for a M and 'the other BS' can be worked on. Now I don't argue it and I'm just letting my actions do the talking (or listening so to speak).
I can't say for sure if anything has truly changed the M sitch, but, everybody in the house is getting along better and actually being more positive about the future.
Sounds like you're on the right track. I'll give your sitch a read when I get back from my cruise.
See you guys in a week, queue music from The Lonely Island band..."I'm on a boat"
Spartan, it's great to hear you sounding so strong. Good luck and have fun on the cruise.
Back and cruise was a lot of fun. Kids and I had a blast together and I went all out and acted more like my true self and didn't hold back. D7 and I played in a game show in front of a huge audience (I had to dance gangnam style alone during it), we danced every night, swam with dolphins, and just had a really fun time. Probably most fun I've ever had on a vacation which is odd with sitch.
W and I were pretty distant entire trip. We were always together and had small talk with kids around but no Disney magic at all. I tried to engage her but I could tell early on it was her mission to act as D'd friends to show kids we could still do things together (which she said a few weeks back). I didn't let that affect me while on trip and just did things I and kids wanted. Again being friends isn't a bad thing but I was kind of hoping for a little pixie dust magic to sprinkle over us since things were trending positively before trip and I hoped it would continue but not surprised it didn't happen.
Plane ride home was a different story. After they all fell asleep it hit me hard that this could be our last trip. I started feeling bad that I wasn't good enough, thinking about how we got to this point, getting mad at her for all she'd done wrong, getting mad at myself, etc... Not a fun 3 hours. Got off plane and sent quick e-mail to buddy and he got my head on straight again. He told me to stop with the pity party and compared me to a dysfunctional pile of monkey $hit when I'm in that mood. Thankfully that worked and I was fine the next couple days and nothing stupid was said and I showed a good attitude.
But...I found out through a friend that W has been talking to a new guy that she works with and friend said it didn't look 'normal'. New guy works midnight shift and W has now picked up some of those shifts... I know the guy from my original post fizzled out a little while back. Well 2 days ago she said new guys name during her sleep. I won't lie that this has set me back again with regards to us. I just have a real hard time seeing a way I can ever trust her. We had agreed to the boundary that neither of us would see anyone until everything with us was final. Completely unrelated to that we had a talk yesterday where she said some pretty crazy things and I admittedly didn't handle as well as I could. No more talking about custody with her!!! I wish I felt more compassion but I'm getting sick of her attitude towards me, the marriage, other guys, etc... so I called her out on some stuff rather then try to understand like I had been (not sure she cared if I understood anyway). Our work schedules this week are such that we won't see each other much so I think it's likely a 'quiet zone' week while I get my thoughts back together. I'm still working on myself but I realize just how far I really have to go since my W can still push my buttons and hurt me... I admit my hopes were starting to rise since we seemed to be getting along but she made it pretty clear last night that it was just to get through the vacation for the kids and nothing had changed. I know, don't believe what she says and half of what she does but there isn't anything positive right now with us.
On to more work on me and time will decide what happens to us in the long run. Fully expecting a couple 2x4's for my lack of focus last night but it's ok, head is already a little welted so I got the message...
Back and cruise was a lot of fun. Kids and I had a blast together and I went all out and acted more like my true self and didn't hold back.
Glad to see you back and glad you had a good time with the kids. Disney magic...it's all in how you look at it (I'm a Disney freak). And most of the fun, is because of the kids and allowing yourself to be one...
But...I found out through a friend that W has been talking to a new guy that she works with and friend said it didn't look 'normal'.
I hate those stupid buts...
How does this change the fun you had on vacation?
How does this change what you are trying to do?
There could be many more of these...
You need to figure out sooner than later if you can forgive her or not.
Trust is the easiest thing to lose and the hardest thing to regain, whether it is one thing or lots of things...
If you can't forgive her, you won't trust her. If you can't trust her, or don't believe you will be able to rebuild it, or at least have the desire to try, you are wasting your time...
I wish I felt more compassion but I'm getting sick of her attitude towards me, the marriage, other guys, etc... so I called her out on some stuff rather then try to understand like I had been
Did this hurt you or help you?
What can you do to make things different for you?
I wish stuff too...that I had a cat, that I had a million dollars, that I was taller...
Some stuff I can change, some stuff I can't. I accept that and do what I can to make my wishes come true. Of course, there is no pixie dust I can sprinkle to make myself taller, so I learned to be good being 4'10", and occasionally I wear high heels.
Done with the backslide yet?
Glad you're back and really glad to hear about the cruise! I'm sure the kids will always remember it, and that was the point right?
I remember being in your sitch not that long ago and I'll tell you, the sooner you give up worrying about what W is doing, the better off you'll be. She's going to do what she wants and there's nothing you can do about it. Focus on you.
Remember, if she's pushing your buttons, she's likely just looking for some confirmation that she's doing the right thing...don't give it to her.
I agree with Breakdown.
Spartan, I'm glad you had such a nice time on the cruise.
Take this week to recharge. It seems your W still is in WAS mode, so there is nothing you can do except for bettering yourself and not giving in when she wants to provoke you.
((((((((((())))))))))
Good stuff Spartan
So true on the changes, I think at first we're all just "wearing the shirt" thinking "if I do X, Y and Z changes then she'll come back to me". At some point we realize they're not the quick fix we hoped for, so we have to choose a path, either give up on them and revert to old ways or do the hard work it takes to embrace the changes for ourselves instead of for our spouses. If we choose the latter, the changes take real root and become part of us, and they are no longer 180's.
And this is what it is all about folks
Thanks for replies guys and yes the kids will remember it, as I will, and that is all that counted and the real goal of the trip. First time in a long time that I felt like a kid for an extended amount of time and I absolutely loved it. I think I mentioned it above that it's the most fun I've probably ever had on a trip and a real bonding experience with kids, not that this has ever been an issue with us. I'm still smiling over some of the things we did together.
Done with the backslide yet?
Yes, I think I'm done backsliding. Combination of letting hope get a little ahead of itself and being hurt by some news led to me slipping a little. Took some encouragement through the day but I'm feeling ready to get back to it. Still learning to either keep my mouth shut or reach out to someone before acting...
If you can't forgive her, you won't trust her. If you can't trust her, or don't believe you will be able to rebuild it, or at least have the desire to try, you are wasting your time...
The trust question is the one I've been asking myself a lot the last several days, and likely why I haven't been on here until today. Feels like every time I feel I'm forgiving her or feel like I can trust again something else comes up and I'm back to being mayor of Hurtsville. I know I control my feelings and I don't even need to run for mayor but it's where I'm currently at in my journey to improving so not going to lie about it to you guys and only post the good stuff... I want to forgive her but since same things keep arising it's still hard for me and the hurt is still just as real. Yes I know I used 'but' in that sentence and it's an excuse (just read 3-4 pages of a thread just about that word that you posted in
), problem is right this second I'm not sure if it's my reality as well.
I struggled a little with that last line earlier today and thank you for making me think about it. No matter what happens with marriage or if I ever do regain trust for W I DO NOT feel like I'm wasting my time at all. I'm looking at myself in completely different ways and being asked questions that really challenge me as a man and what I believe in, I'm learning about who I am now and who I want to be (and realizing even some of these things change as I learn more). I'm learning about what love is and about what my core values really are. I'm learning valuable things that were never taught to me that I will pass on to my kids so they hopefully don't make the same mistakes I made... As much as I hoped that my M could be saved and we would become the perfect happy family the most important thing to me is that I become the person I want to be and I pass those traits on to my kids. So no, this isn't a waste of time at all.
Did this hurt you or help you?
What can you do to make things different for you?
The talk last night didn't help my sitch with W but it gave me a little peace which our last 'talks' definitely haven't done. Throughout the attacks and odd comments she made I said what was on my mind about my position on upcoming court, reiterated my boundaries (which she said she didn't care about which I'm working through how to handle), stated some of the things she was doing were hurting me, and didn't attack her. Could I have done it better? Of course and probably best would have been to just have stopped it before it got started. One of my changes, for better or worse, is to not just push things under the rug and let them fester. Thing I still need work on is doing it in a more constructive way that doesn't lead to anyone's raised blood pressure.
the sooner you give up worrying about what W is doing, the better off you'll be. She's going to do what she wants and there's nothing you can do about it. Focus on you.
For at least the next week I'm going as dim as possible to work on me and stop worrying about her or marriage. I've come a long way but I obviously have a LONG way to go. Good thing I'm only 38
Throughout the attacks and odd comments she made I said what was on my mind about my position on upcoming court, reiterated my boundaries (which she said she didn't care about which I'm working through how to handle), stated some of the things she was doing were hurting me, and didn't attack her.
What boundaries are you trying to enforce?
There was only one boundary and that was that neither of us would see other people until D is final. When I called her out on this latest (current) guy her response was that it's none of my business what she's doing or who she's talking with or seeing and we're getting a D so that agreement doesn't mean anything to her. We made agreement couple months after paperwork was filed so only thing that changed is she found someone new. I was upset but instead of yelling about it I just said I was sick of all the lying and things will now be different around here.
Last several months I've been really trying to be a friend, regain trust, and include her in everything with regards to family. Results: I was feeling a little better about our chances, was starting to feel like we were connecting as friends again, we were enjoying each other, family times were filled with laughter, and I was slowly starting to build trust with her. Come to find out she is still seeing other people and lying about a lot of things (a friend that works with her called me this AM and told me about another lie :o).
So...for my own sanity and for what I feel is best for my kids I'm going to start doing more 'family' things without W. It's confusing for me so I can only imagine what my kids feel when for the last month everything has seemed better than ever with family stuff. I don't want them (or me) to go from that right into house for sale and D thoughts again. For all of us I need to get more into a mindset that family is now my kids and I. This doesn't mean shutting W completely out, being nasty, or anything like that but I have to realize where she's at and the things she's doing are not healthy for a family. I need to at least start preparing us for the real possibility of a new 'family mentatality' for my kids and I.
She's not leaving house and I won't so need to find ways to change the dynamic so she feels like she is losing me and the family. Seems like way too much cake eating going on. Talked with buddy last night and he helped me figure out some new things I'll start setting up. For instance I'm planning to take kids to an event on Saturday night just the 3 of us, this is type of thing we would usually all go to. The only thing I said to W yesterday was to ask if she had plans with kids and when she said no I told her I was taking them to this, she was surprised but no fight. She did sleep on couch again which she said she wasn't doing anymore because it hurt her back (sleeping on couch is her decision). I'm also going to limit/ stop the family dinner nights where we all go out and pretend to be a happy family. I'm also done picking up messes and working on her computer stuff, she's going to have to figure this stuff out on her own. There are a few others.
Believe me when I tell you this is extremely hard for me. Doing things as a complete family has always been one of the most important parts of my life. I just feel like it's time to make this change so kids and I can start figuring out what our future may look like. The continued pattern of being lied to and hurt has to stop (yes she's been late for kids stuff last couple months that I've helped cover up). This doesn't mean I'm dropping the rope, giving up, or anything like that. It's a change to the dynamic.
Wish me luck and get ready for some "I need support" type threads because this is going to be VERY hard on me.
About the "other" man. Unless your friend (and I question that, sounds like a busybody) saw them having sex, doesn't mean a thing. Maybe she was flirting, maybe he was flirting. So what? I see people advising here regularly that the LBS go out and flirt to help their self-esteem. I don't get that but the point is it doesn't have to mean anything unless you give it meaning.
Don't make this about what she's done to you, or what she might do to you. Make this about how you can have a good life, no matter what the outcome.
This, Doing things as a complete family has always been one of the most important parts of my life. has been a theme around here this week. Read some of busting's thread, you are not alone in this.
On my phone so this will be brief for now..
Agree with Bug. You might want to ask these friends to stop sharing this sort of intel with you. Then again, maybe not... I also believe we learn things as we need to so...
So what were the consequences of the boundary of not seeing other people? How did that boundary help you?
Was there more to it than that?
Please explain more and I will elaborate when im not on a phone with autocorrect that wants to put words in that make no freakin sense.
A) Auto correct is my favourite...not
B) I want to know consequences of the boundary too...if I was wife, I would have began to think "what gives you the right to interfere in my life..?" Wrongly or not.
This would have been just another piece in the "this is why we won't work" puzzle.
Interesting because I thought much the same^^^
It sounds more like an ultimatum but maybe that's what you wanted.
I struggled with the boundaries a lot myself because of my controlling behaviors and it seems like you are in the same boat. Checking on your W at work...controlling. And to your W, it's more of the same.
I'd flip it around...forget what she is doing and focus on you. Go flirt yourself....look good, smell good, feel good, laugh. Have you read Married Man's Sex Life Primer? I highly recommend.
Spartan, I completely relate to your statement: "The trust question is the one I've been asking myself a lot the last several days, and likely why I haven't been on here until today. Feels like every time I feel I'm forgiving her or feel like I can trust again something else comes up and I'm back to being mayor of Hurtsville"
Your W's behavior fits a WAS's behavior to a T. It makes sense to stop spending time together as a family, as hard as that will be. She needs to realize the consequences of her actions, plus it'll be good for your emotional health.
So what were the consequences of the boundary of not seeing other people? How did that boundary help you?
Was there more to it than that?
We made this "boundary" early on and to be quite honest we never attached anything to it (i.e. if this happens then this happens). I probably should have called it more of an agreement then used the word boundary. The way it went down was after the initial "WTF just happened to my life" emotions settled down we had a talk about us. We discussed this agreement in regards to her hoping to stay friends after D happens because it would be better for kids (some of you may remember at the time I didn't really believe friends would be possible but I knew we couldn't have R without being friends so it made sense for where she was currently at). I brought up that because the process itself could be straining on our relationship I didn't think it made sense for us to add other people to the mix that could only hurt the other person. She said she agreed with that and said she has no intention of finding or looking for anyone and she just wants to be alone and feel free to do what she wants since she's never been on her own (side note even when I offered to pay for things she didn't want to move out or even do trial separation to give her this space which confused me...). We BOTH agreed that we wouldn't pursue any opposite sex relationships until either D was final or we were separated. I really believed her and it was helping me because I wasn't wondering about another guy. I'm honestly not sure I could have done the friending work I was doing if that potential was alive and visible, at least not to level I felt I was. Right or wrong it helped me to start becoming her friend again and I felt like I was starting to gain trust in her.
Yes it hurt that she is doing whatever with this other guy and I do feel lied to again but the thing that really generated my comment about things being different was that the agreement we made means nothing to her anymore. Same thing happened when we discussed custody. Around the same time as above agreement we both agreed on 50/50. When paperwork was started by my L (at her request) her (or her L) responded with it being unacceptable and said they would offer me every other weekend only... When we discussed it originally she said it made sense to get this part done since it would be the biggest topic and we should get it out of way now while we're getting along in case things turned sour. When I talked with her about her L's response she denied knowing anything about it. I asked her to follow up with her L and she said no she'll wait for court. Like you guys said, the other guy may be absolutely nothing but the breaking of agreements/ vows/ whatever you want to call them has been a reoccurring issue with her for way longer then I like to admit. I wish I would have been stronger earlier in my life rather than just pushing everything under rug because I was afraid of being alone or being divorced/ single parent. At least I can admit that now...
Agree with Bug. You might want to ask these friends to stop sharing this sort of intel with you. Then again, maybe not... I also believe we learn things as we need to so...
I actually told him this morning that I didn't want, or need, to hear anything else. I told him nothing I can do about any of it and it just adds stress to my world and that I'm just trying to work on myself now. I know he was trying to help and we were cool about it but he wanted me to know she picked up shifts that coincide with other guys schedule. The lie I mentioned that he didn't know about was she told me she was forced into shifts. At this point, after a lot of help, none of the 'other guy stuff' really makes much difference.
Sorry for book, I really need to work on editing. I just type what I think...
I probably should have called it more of an agreement then used the word boundary.
That was what I was wondering.
She said she agreed with that and said she has no intention of finding or looking for anyone and she just wants to be alone and feel free to do what she wants since she's never been on her own
Script...
I really believed her and it was helping me because I wasn't wondering about another guy. I'm honestly not sure I could have done the friending work I was doing if that potential was alive and visible, at least not to level I felt I was. Right or wrong it helped me to start becoming her friend again and I felt like I was starting to gain trust in her.
I don't think there is right or wrong here.
And it does sound like it helped you in the short term. I think, unfortunately, it also gave you some unrealistic expectations. And I think that is a huge part of why the break in trust feels so intense right now.
the breaking of agreements/ vows/ whatever you want to call them has been a reoccurring issue with her for way longer then I like to admit.
It's ok to type what you think. For a lot of reasons.
One that I will address is your statement about controlling your feelings. DB isn't about NOT feeling or controlling your feelings. Feelings, are never wrong. They are what they are.
What we control, is our reaction to those feelings. Whether we lash out in rage, hide in fear, or whatever. We have to feel the feelings, process them, and then ACT out of a clear and conscious headspace instead of REACTING.
Another thing that you can work on, is communication skills. You know how I feel about buts if you read those threads...
That was something that was drilled into my head by another poster here. You use the word but a whole bunch in your writing. I counted five in the post where you talked about it a bit. Five. That is a lot for a few paragraphs. You may have simply been looking for a filler word. IDK. We all can improve our communication skills so that our words are better understood by others without them having to "fill in the gaps". Word choice is an excellent place to start.
That requires a filter between your brain and your mouth. Or your fingers. It requires you to edit yourself until it becomes something natural.
Just my thoughts...
Thanks Cat and I agree that something I need to work on is acting out of a clear and conscious headspace. I let things fester in the past and never acted so now I feel like I need to address everything immediately. This doesn't always work for obvious reasons; I'm still working to make these changes natural and until then the enemy to that are my emotions. What I need to do is take a step back when something gets me going and think about it and my response before addressing it. I know what to do, the doing it in the heat of the moment is where I still occasionally slip up. I hear what you're saying!
Feelings...I've always shown my feelings more then the average guy I know. Later years in my M I did start repressing them since many weren't good. I'll tell you what though, since BD and working through this process on me, I've become WAY more emotional. Heck, I have feelings about my feelings now
. Probably something to do with actually being in touch with myself (keep it clean) and thinking about things in a deeper way.
Feelings, are never wrong. They are what they are.
Funny, I never really thought about it that way. I think I've been kind of ashamed for having feelings in past. I'm a guy, my family is all blue collar, no dad around so felt like I needed to be tougher, etc... I secretly wondered what was wrong with me. Normal guys don't have feelings right... I now know how incorrect that was. Still interesting that I never really processed it before that feelings aren't wrong. My W is also pretty emotionless from her upbringing so with all that I kind of did think my having feelings was wrong.
But saying the word but makes me feel better because then I have a reason for everything I do that's wrong
. I hope you see the sarcasm there. I see your point and I do use that word WAY too much. It's part of the manning up and owning my crap thing I'm working on.
Or...maybe it's because I like my butt and I just want to say the word a lot so people think about it...
Thanks Cat and I agree that something I need to work on is acting out of a clear and conscious headspace. I let things fester in the past and never acted so now I feel like I need to address everything immediately. This doesn't always work for obvious reasons; I'm still working to make these changes natural and until then the enemy to that are my emotions. What I need to do is take a step back when something gets me going and think about it and my response before addressing it. I know what to do, the doing it in the heat of the moment is where I still occasionally slip up. I hear what you're saying!
Good that you know what to do and hear what I'm saying because I won't be so nice next time
Feelings, are never wrong. They are what they are.
Funny, I never really thought about it that way. I think I've been kind of ashamed for having feelings in past. I'm a guy, my family is all blue collar, no dad around so felt like I needed to be tougher, etc... I secretly wondered what was wrong with me. Normal guys don't have feelings right... I now know how incorrect that was. Still interesting that I never really processed it before that feelings aren't wrong. My W is also pretty emotionless from her upbringing so with all that I kind of did think my having feelings was wrong.
NO NO NO!!!
I never said
having feelings is wrong...I don't care who you are, the only people who don't have feelings are sociopaths (actually part of the diagnosis) and those people are few and far between thank God...
I said your feelings (or anyone's) regarding any given situation are never wrong. It may not be what other people feel about the same thing, or how people think you SHOULD feel, but they are still your feelings. And only you can determine how to deal with them.
We aren't robots around here, although I know that sometimes the vets can be perceived that way...
We feel, we remember, and we have learned how to better deal with our emotions (most of the time). And we are all still human.
Or...maybe it's because I like my butt and I just want to say the word a lot so people think about it...
Keep it up smartbutt...you are close to joining the "I know" club too...
Forgot to post what I originally came here to post...
So last night I told kids I got us tickets for Monster Truck Show (yeehaw!!!) and they were more excited than I thought they would be. D7 wanted to see tickets and saw only 3 and then things turned... She ran to basement to 'hide' which was last thing I expected. She's such a smart girl and she knew right away what it meant. I went down there and she looked at me and her lip started quivering and she started asking where mom's ticket was. I told her I wanted to go just the 3 of us. She got mad and said she wanted mom to go as a family and wondered why she can't come with us. I put her on my lap and explained to her that we would be doing more things with just the 3 of us. She started to push me away and asked why we still wanted a D because we have so much fun together. Talk about heart break city! I stayed strong and explained that I agreed we were having fun and that doesn't have to stop. I told her that we both love her very much but things will start being different. I told her I understood how she felt and it's ok to be mad and or sad but I made sure she knew she could talk with me about anything. She relaxed and gave me a hug. I told her we could think about the show for the next couple days and not go if she didn't want to. She said we can go and it will be fun. She then asked if we can make a sign for girl driver that shoots glitter from truck (I have no idea what she's talking about so need to google this). She then asked a few more questions about the future and I answered them without discussing W at all. At end when she said she didn't want us to get a D I did say that it wasn't what I wanted either but it's where we are right now and that I loved her and her brother. She said "I know" and gave me a HUGE, long hug. She was calmed down then and we worked on her science fair project for next hour laughing a bunch. She even invited her brother down to help glue things
I've been expecting W start to really show anger over new direction and I'm sure she will but I didn't really think about it hitting kids this quickly. My D7 is so smart and observant, probably more then I am
. I'm just so glad that we have the relationship we have where she feels safe to talk, ask her questions, and show emotion to me. I was also reminded by my friend that this wasn't my choice and my motives for doing this to protect me and kids are pure.
Lesson here though is if we think false hope effects us we need to remember the kids. They don't have these boards, the life experiences, or (hopefully) don't see the negatives in our M's, all they see are the fun family times and they can easily start to believe everything is ok again... I'm more glad then ever for the advice I received because I need to start preparing not only myself but my kids for what is a very real potential to happen.
Hey S, just stopping by as I see my friends, mach and cat have come to visit. They are the best.
And please hear cat when she says she might not be so nice next time. LOL!
I just wanted to say a couple of things. Hope you dont mind. Ive been around a long time.
I understand your reason for asking that your wife go into an agreement with you regarding seeing others. Unfortunately, most times when that's done, it is not really kept. It sounded good to her at the time. It made things easier when she said it. And maybe she even had the intentions to keep it. I like to think positively as often as I can.
And who knows what the info you've been given really means?
The thing is, it doesnt really matter. I know you are shaking your head saying, what is she talking about? This really needs to be about you and your kids and you becoming the person you were meant to be.
That's really what dbing is all about. And sometimes it saves marriages.
What I do each day is I try to remember the person I want to be. I try to live that each day. Some days I make it, some I dont, but that is always the goal.
You have a wonderful opportunity here. You get to show your children how to navigate through life's turmoils with dignity, courage and strength. How lucky are you?
Will it be hard for them, absolutely. But, they are watching you closely. And if they see that you are ok, then they will be, too.
And be careful that the reasons for keeping wife out of the fold are what you say and not for any other reasons, ya know?
Keep going.
Spartan, you handled the situation with your daughter really well. I can't even imagine how hard it must be.
I also see that you are in a good emotional place. That's awesome.
I disagree that you need to tell people to stop telling you about your W's actions. I think these are signs you need to see and listen to. I ignored the signs I got many, many times, and I don't like where I ended up. To me, knowledge is power--the power to make the right decisions.
Hey S, just stopping by as I see my friends, mach and cat have come to visit. They are the best.
And please hear cat when she says she might not be so nice next time. LOL!
Thanks for stopping by and feel free to add any insight (or welt on the head) that you can. With regards to Cat there better not be a next time and if there is I already told her to scratch away...
And be careful that the reasons for keeping wife out of the fold are what you say and not for any other reasons, ya know?
Fully understand what you mean here. Rest assured my motives are pure as snow on this. I pray daily that my W and kids have a strong R through all this. No matter how hard it is I would prefer the kids to take it out on me because I know I can handle it, not sure how W would react right now and I don't want her to do something stupid she would later regret. I think I have a good support group and they aren't afraid to hit me up side the head if they think I'm doing things for wrong reason.
Thanks Tori. D7 followed up talk today with a few more little questions and seemed more at peace with everything. Said she wants to make sure she can help pick out OUR new house. Taking away false hope isn't fun but (sorry Cat) had to be done to protect them later. I want to be realistic with kids and make sure they understand what our future might look like.
I disagree that you need to tell people to stop telling you about your W's actions. I think these are signs you need to see and listen to. I ignored the signs I got many, many times, and I don't like where I ended up. To me, knowledge is power--the power to make the right decisions.
I also ignored the signs for a long time (these types of things have been reoccurring for last 8 years and I have plenty of hard evidence, I was so weak before BD...). I completely understand where you're coming from. My point in telling them to stop is I have all the dirt/ info I need to convince myself to walk away with a clear conscience. Thing is, this info doesn't help me on my current goal, to improve myself so I'm proud of who I am and I become an even better dad to my kids. Right now my kids and my own well being are all that matter to me. That type of info is just noise to me and there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
Spartan,
This "intel"...
Some people say you need it in order to not become a doormat.
Personally, I believe that some serves a purpose, to allow you to find your way, to make your decision to stand or not...
I think once you have made your choice, of where your line in the sand is, then you don't need to receive more, and when there is something that crosses that line, we will receive what we need.
Otherwise, all it does is add fuel to a fire that we are trying to put out within ourselves.
People are strange creatures. We say we want others to be happy. Sometimes I wonder though, whose determines what happiness is for others...
In my own sitch, there was stuff that if I had known, may have caused me not to go through with the wedding to begin with. And honestly, I don't believe I would have been happier if that had been the case.
Was my M perfect? Not by a long shot.
Was it the worst M ever? Not by a long shot.
I had a lot of happy years. I was able to give my S the family I so wanted him to have.
The "intel", for me, had little impact on the outcome of my M. Personally, I would have tried to work through almost anything. My X, didn't feel the same way. After the bomb, I realize that the most loving thing I could give to him, and really to both of us, was to let him go.
Just make sure that you are being true to yourself. That you know where your line is. I think you are figuring it out and that is part of this process.
Just to add another perspective...I think when people tell us things they're sure we need to know, unless we are truly secure in who we are we tend to react so others don't think we are a doormat, or weak or crazy, stupid blind.
Letting go of egao and the need to please others is such a central part of this process.
Labug, you got me thinking there... My current direction is for me and for the first time, probably ever, I'm feeling secure with who I am. Being the doormat, feeling weak, etc... of my past are all directly related to my ego of not wanting to look like a failure to everyone that thought I had the perfect life with a great M. People always commented how great a family we were and I didn't want to let them down. We were a poster family for a while in our church circle for how us going back to God saved our M...
There is a LONG list of things I regret doing just because I thought it would make someone else happy. Not blaming them, I did it to myself and have learned a valuable lesson (so what if it took 38 years...).
I recently learned about the Karpman Drama Triangle and can relate so many situations in my life to that simple diagram.
Stumbled across this old post that mentions doormat. I feel like I could have written this today but he says it much better than I ever could:
Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.
An essential step.
An understanding.
An awakening of sorts.
I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.
I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.
We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors
We want our M back
We want our spouse to want us back
We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option
We want to ease our own pain
We want our own self esteem back
We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior
We want ________ because we get _________ in return.
We STAND on these principles.
We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.
From family, friends and
from ourselves.
Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.
It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.
We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.
So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.
As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.
Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.
Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.
We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.
It is then that the MIRACLE happens.
Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout
of green punches through...
This growth is something new and it
is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it
For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before
it took root.
But it did take root and
it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.
The miracle is the love for yourself.
You are no longer the choices your spouse makes
You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not
You are no longer the failures you see in yourself
You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.
Then you a FREE
Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.
This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.
Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.
What is means to love.
Thanks for the post, Spartan. It takes a while to get to where we are, when we can fully understand ourselves and be in tune with what really matters in life. Hey, it took me 38 years too!
You sound strong. We're here with you.
I still love reading Truegritter, even if he is a bit long winded, LOL.
Words used have such a powerful meaning to how I view the things I do. Obviously the ones used in conversations and on boards are talked about on almost every thread so no need to discuss those here. I'm talking more the labels we put on our actions. A friend spent over 2 hours on phone with me last night (thanks Craig!!!) and this is one of topics we spent some time on.
For example: I have no doubts what I'm currently doing at this time (pulling back from W) is the correct thing for me, and my kids. I feel I'm doing it in as loving a way as I can and my morals are good and centered (to protect mine and my kids feelings over what is a very real future for us). I won't lie, it's a very hard thing for me and the path of least resistance would be to just keep acting like friends right up to D. I know that will likely just lead to more hurt. My W has never experienced or really felt that she might lose me no matter what she's done in the past. Anyway, back to topic...this last week something still wasn't sitting well with me over what I was doing. I couldn't figure it out because like I said I truly believe in it. Come to figure out it was just the label of going dim/ dark. It feels so negative to me. Just by changing it to "backing in to reality" made it feel better.
Might just be me and none of you (besides Craig) have any idea what I'm rambling about. Other 'normal' board sayings that feel negative to me that I will try to stop using:
•Become a better man: Implies I wasn't a good man before. I like "Becoming a man that makes better decisions"
•Be man only a fool would leave: Implies any S that leaves is a fool rather than just someone that made some bad decisions
•Doormat: Negative word used way too much. Only a doormat if you get walked all over. I equated it to doing too much for someone even though I really did want to do the things and felt at time it was right thing to do. In my case I was more an enabler
•But: Word used to set up an excuse most the time. I'm also a little afraid of Cat...
I hear you on the Dim/dark, thing. I am pulling back, giving space. I was concerned to do it at first because I saw it as a negative and more of the same, since on of my H's problems was that I was too busy with the kids and life to give him attention. Even now, if I answer the phone and the kids interupt and I deal with them, he gets mad. But, he gets mad if I don't pick up the phone either. So...yea, I don't worry about that.
I am going to Back into reality, myself. We are separated. So, friendly. Kind. Give compliements. Leave first. Don't ask him to do things. Etc.
2 hours, huh? Lucky you, Spartan. Really. He is very special and has helped me so much.
I like your list. I've been around here for several years and I have not once used those phrases.
I prefer to say become the person you were meant to be. Someone strong and compassionate with dignity and courage. Those are the things that are attractive.
And ayep, you should be a little afraid of Cat. She can get you with a few choice words and you dont see them coming. LOL!
You are in very good hands, BUT, I think you know that already.
Yea, she doesnt scare me none. Haha.
Spartan, focusing on positive statements is the best you can do. If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.
Journal:
Kind of an up and down weekend to be honest (mostly all in my head, even keel and detached with the W for most part and had great time with kids as always).
Friday - W worked midnights so kids and I hung out, played, watched some Duck Dynasty (S4 started morphing into Uncle Si
). Lot of fun!
Saturday - W says she'll bring donuts home for kids before I take kids to D7's gymnastics. She's late, I call her to find this out (not sure why she never feels need to let us know when she's late, she was in the car driving...). I end up taking kids to quick breakfast. Stay cool about it and don't bring it up again even though I hate when she does this to kids. D7 asked me "Why does mom always say she's going to do something then doesn't"... After we get home W says something about her stuff being a mess and she needs to clean it before realtor. I ask when realtor is coming since she's been saying it for 2 months. She raises voice but no fight escalates. I should have just kept my mouth shut about realtor and her crap being everywhere; it's a mess though. Kids are better organized than she is anymore. We both play with kids most rest of afternoon.
Saturday night - Take kids to Monster Truck Jam (it was a lot of fun, you'd think my little Justice wearing princess was actually a full blown hillbilly with all the fist pumping and yelling she was doing
. S4 hung out taking it all in and asking lots of questions, wants to go back this weekend). Only negative of night was on drive there I looked over at passenger seat and W (obviously) isn't there. This is something entire family would usually do and first event in the "new family" experience. I won't lie, it got in my head to point where a tear actually streamed down the cheek. Thankfully kids didn't see (love DVD in the car). For whatever reason I felt overwhelming sadness that this was really happening and a little guilt for not inviting her. Again I know I'm doing it for right reason but it doesn't mean I have to like doing it or that it will be easy. Overall night was a blast but there were about 10 minutes there that really $ucked. No matter how far I feel like I've come there is always more work to do. Think main thing I need is more time.
Sunday - Uneventful, went to church and all hung out. Kept conversation with W to a minimum.
Hang in there. Your sitch reminds me so much of my own...I wish I was further along so I could help more.
I will say, the donut deal is an awful lot like an example I gave once about my W missing S13's baseball game. I got so bent out of shape about it, and it was a "normal" response from W....she was always late or missed. Same thing with coming home, late, no communication, nada....she would be in charge of dinner and not come home til 8 or 9. And it always pissed me off.
I don't remember the exact words Mach1 used, but I think the net of it was, "start enjoying this time with the kids and stop worrying about what W is doing or not doing. You can't control her." I simply stopped expecting anything from her, because her track record was awful, and I actually got a lot happier.
These days, W is actually pretty good about communicating and coming home on time, but I still plan on doing it alone just in case. If I say "W, I need you home tonight because I have plans" I still either make dinner, or make sure there is a backup plan just in case W goes rogue again.
Another thing to think about...your comment about the realtor. Do you think that comes from being hurt or angry or something else? Have you thought thru that? Once you understand the basis of it, I think it will help you not do it in the future.
watched some Duck Dynasty (S4 started morphing into Uncle Si )
Hey...
and what's wrong with Hillbillys? I come from a long line of very fine hilljacks.
and what's wrong with Hillbillys? I come from a long line of very fine hilljacks.
Not a thing as do I as well. My problem is I started morphing into one of those yuppies that Phil is always complaining about.
That boundary you set sounds awfully like control and manipulation
That boundary you set sounds awfully like control and manipulation
I have to disagree.
The boundary that Spartan set was about taking control of his life, regardless of what his W is doing.
As far as manipulation, the reality is that she has filed for D. Doing things with the children separatly, is part of that reality and allowing her to see and feel that is in no way manipulating.
My problem is I started morphing into one of those yuppies that Phil is always complaining about.
Too many days in a sub-division...
Your redneck blood is thinning.......quickly
I was talking about not let her date others
You still playing BO2? I tried to look you up the other day and couldn't find you in steam. Was that your profile name?
Yes, that is my xbox name.
Aw hell, I play on PC...not sure we can even do it. I will have to read up on it.
Breakdown - We can still be friends on xbox...
Not a whole lot different in my sitch, just moving along. Been spending a lot of time on MLC forum reading and talking with people and it's becoming clear to me that this is where W is residing rather than pure WAS. Pretty sure she read Midlife for Dummies thread because she's following the advanced version perfect
.
Someone is interested in buying our house and it's not even on market yet so that's had me a little tied up this week. It's another step towards D which blows. Other issue was kids were home during the showing, I got home that night and D7 obviously wasn't doing good with it and was VERY mad at mom. I got her calmed down and we had another talk later that night. Hard stuff acting 'as if' everything is fine with kids when I'm struggling with this stuff myself. So far I'm doing good with it though.
W and I had talk about selling house, custody, etc...a couple days ago and I was very calm throughout and validated pretty well. She tried to push buttons a couple times and spewed some complete nonsense a few other times but I didn't let it affect me this time.
I didn't follow DB completely though. At one point she asked me the "why did it take this long for you to make all these changes". I told her I didn't really know but before BD I wasn't ready myself to make changes and told her I guess I had to do a lot of wrong things and make bad decisions to know what the right things looked like. She was asking questions and seemed receptive to hearing things so I talked more than I probably should have about things I had worked on (told ya I didn't follow DB 37 rules). If nothing else I think it made her think because she was up pretty late looking deep in thought. I'm sure it made little difference in big picture but for whatever reason I felt better. Since then I've continued towards the "backing into reality" mindset by creating a little friendly distance.
I didn't follow DB completely though. At one point she asked me the "why did it take this long for you to make all these changes". I told her I didn't really know but before BD I wasn't ready myself to make changes and told her I guess I had to do a lot of wrong things and make bad decisions to know what the right things looked like. She was asking questions and seemed receptive to hearing things so I talked more than I probably should have about things I had worked on (told ya I didn't follow DB 37 rules). If nothing else I think it made her think because she was up pretty late looking deep in thought. I'm sure it made little difference in big picture but for whatever reason I felt better. Since then I've continued towards the "backing into reality" mindset by creating a little friendly distance.
I don' think it is bad to answer questions about change if spouse asks why. I would not go overboard talking about all the changes, but explaining why seems ok, IMO.
I opened a profile and sent a friend request...still bummed we can't kill stuff though.
Sounds like you are handling yourself great. Those tough conversations are hard, but how you are handling them shows how far you've come. W has noticed...just keep them going. Consistent changes over a long period of time = changes she can believe in.
Thought I should post something to my own sitch. Not a whole lot new, just staying the course.
Friendly distancing seems to be going well. W is initiating more small talk and I'm listening and validating. Today she even initiated convo complaining about court process (I so wanted to remind her this is her idea but I didn't, I just empathized with her having to change her work schedule...). I rarely initiate any discussions not related to kids. Been very friendly with it though. I've also not shown that anything she says or does bothers me, in fact I've acted the opposite with her just staying calm and cool.
One thing I've noticed last few days is glimpses of my old W with her interaction with kids. I have no expectations it will continue but I LOVE seeing her being happy, caring, and really interacting with them. She's also including me in night prayers with kids (I haven't been included since pre-BD). Again I have no expectations of any of this continuing long or it really meaning much big picture, likely just her popping her head out the tunnel for a couple days.
Initial court date was today and nothing came out of it, W didn't dismiss but wasn't expecting that
. Next court date is set for 5/28 and our mediator has been selected. I asked my L to slow things down as much as possible without it being obvious, he selected mediator that is notoriously busy so we'll see when that gets scheduled.
I've been doing all planning/ prep for S4's 5th B-day party this weekend. Not sure if W will be there or not. W has had a falling out with couple parents of S4 friends during this D process. She's told me both yes and no last couple weeks. I told her it's completely up to her and she's obviously welcome and wanted there but reminded her that it's S4's party and he wanted his friends there. I REALLY hope she decides to come, I think S4 will have a tough time with it if she doesn't come and I know he won't go to W with it. I'll be there for him but hate that he gets hurt during this BS. I SO want to tell her I remember my 5th B-day party (Superman cake and first major even my dad didn't show up for something, it become the norm after that). I know it would do no good and just add pressure which serves no purpose.
This morning W and I were small talking about kids and family (she initiated) and I calmly asked her if she knew how I felt about her. She sheepishly said "yes, I think so". Then shifted to super attitude and said "let me guess, you're going to tell me now". I calmly said "nope, just making sure". She looked shocked and I said have a nice day and left for work.
Didn't intend to talk at all but that interaction felt good and showed another example of how I now act differently (especially on emotional day like a court day).
I read your thread this morning and, regardless of the outcome, think the things you've learned about yourself and the changes you've made are inspiring. Thank you for putting it all out there for us to learn from. Lots of eye openers for me personally, especially about listening and being a friend. I've fought the friend thing for awhile and now feel it may be too late. Wish I had read your example many months ago.
...I calmly asked her if she knew how I felt about her. She sheepishly said "yes, I think so". Then shifted to super attitude and said "let me guess, you're going to tell me now". I calmly said "nope, just making sure". .
I'm going to steal that!
That's super impressive on a court day. I hate those.
Quick update:
Sitch is progressing along in neutral. I'm staying friendly detached meaning being nice at all times, listening and validating her when she initiates conversation and not really initiating anything myself, staying emotionally stable around her at all times and not letting her even see the buttons to push them, inviting her to some stuff with me and kids, and doing a lot of my own thing (solo and w/ kids). Results with this seem more positive because she's initiating a few more small talks and is acting more friendly overall. Last 2 nights she's actually snuggled up against me in bed while sleeping (literally only contact in weeks).
With that yesterday I had a down day and had a tough time shaking it. No fight or anything in regards to W, just one of the down days in the process that we all have to go through. It wasn't the sharp pain I used to get, just kind of an uneasy feeling all day with thoughts drifting towards sitch. I usually don't post this type of thing because today I'm fine and no damage was done to sitch. I'm guessing most people didn't even know I was down since I've become such a good actor. Reason I'm posting is because a lot of people seem to think something is wrong with them because they have bad days/ thoughts of sitch and can't just detach. It's perfectly normal to have that type of day and probably healthy in the grieving process. Just have to fight through it, don't do anything stupid (i.e. keep your trap shut), and lean on friends to help you.
I did think about triggers for why it happened and my guess is her snuggling me that night while sleeping (yes I miss contact) and the anxiety I'm feeling with S4's B-day party this weekend. In past I would have got stuck in my emotions but yesterday I just accepted that they were there and weren't going anywhere so I just dealt with them and tried to figure out the cause.
Seems like every week or two another layer is peeled away from me (i.e. what is love, obligation, trust, act vs. react, abandonment/ no dad, etc...). This week I've started the work on likely the mack daddy of all my layers, control. I touched on it earlier in my sitch regarding my interactions with W but now getting into more of the why I feel need to control and fear associated with losing it. Pretty deep stuff. Will post on it more in coming weeks as I work through it. Don't think this will be a quick or easy one to work through...
Pretty deep stuff. Will post on it more in coming weeks as I work through it. Don't think this will be a quick or easy one to work through...
Agreed...this one was a tough pill to swallow. Not only can it be a painful thing to work thru, the habit is difficult. Even after I thought I'd worked thru the issue, I still tried to control the sitch to limit my pain. I thought I was accepting, but really I was just giving ground while holding on by my fingertips with all my strength. It's hard to let go.
Spartan how are you doing?
Thanks for asking. For the most part I'm doing ok. Last week had a few down moments leading up to son's B-day party but I'm now able to keep those in check and not let them turn into anything with W. Even when she tries
. Act instead of react has become a motto for me.
Yesterday had S's 5th B-day party and it went great! Kids had a great time, S even ended up with a black eye from a light saber battle. Buddy said it's not a party until someone gets injured and I heard S say that to his sister later in night, cracked me up
. W didn't really help with anything for party and went out of obligation only and was disengaged for most of it. Didn't let it affect me or the party. I was shocked my mom and one of my BF's even hugged her at the end. After party she tried to start fight but I didn't fall for it, kept my cool and stated only facts and disengaged quickly.
I'm really proud of myself for pulling the party together and having it go so well. I didn't realize just how stressed I was until I was talking with a friend about it Friday night. This has always been something W planned and I didn't want to blow it. It went so well I even had a few minutes during it to just sit in the chair and watch the kids playing. Really nice moment.
Right now my R with my kids is at an all time high (it's always been good but now on another level I never imagined). I've become close with some new friends and got reacquainted with some old ones. I'm really liking who I'm becoming and most my days are good with the occasional down moment (or half day) about W and the sitch. Currently doing a lot of thinking about control and my fears associated with losing it. Reading 'The Journey from Abandonment to Healing: Turn the End of a Relationship into the Beginning of a New Life' by Susan Anderson and it's amazing. This will likely be my last self help book for a while, time to get back to casual reading and "just be" for a while and let everything continue to soak in.
You are really inspiring to me, Spartan. Those layers, ah, the layers!
Control was a hard one for me. Sadly, I don't think that short of this crazy bomb being thrown in my life, I would have been able to really let go of control to the extent I have already. Cheating husband, pregnant, crazy OW and OWH, No $ for second home...there is no way to control a thing. Nothing. Oh, I try here and there, but man.
Grats on the party! You kicked @ss in more ways than one!
Spartan that is great news. Just so you know I have good days and bad days myself. Even in my current sitch. It isn't always roses when WAS returns. But I am also learning to ACT not react and it is a great thing to live by, for all relationships. Keep moving forward
The saga continues. I was coming out of my little funk regarding how W acted for B-day party and towards kids in general. I was starting to feel a little better then I get home from work yesterday...
W had day off to hang with S5 and I ask how their day went. She tells me her and S5 went to play date with guy from her work and his nephew. This is the guy that she was texting the other day and who's name she said while asleep (I think I posted about that before and I asked her about it that next day so she knew I remembered it). She said it like it was nothing and it realistically probably is in her mind...
It upset me and I was trying my best to not say or do anything and just process it. She must have sensed it and had the nerve to say it was innocent and said he's only 28 (like that makes any difference...). In an eerily calm voice (imagine monotone just above a whisper) I told her it always starts innocent and we've been down this road before and it's a road I'm tired of. I then said I might be done trying to be friends because my friends don't continuously hurt me (she's said/ done other things last few days to me and kids). She started getting angry and I stopped her and said this isn't about a play date or some guy, this is about your lack of regard for my feelings. Then I walked away.
I know talking then was emotion fueled and very dangerous and I've been DBing long enough to know better. Truth be told I was surprised at how far I've come by not escalating it into anything more than a few sentences. I didn't talk with her again and won't say another word for a while (she's gone until Sunday; I'm thinking longer term though). Boys and bills as J3B used to say. I'm also trying to process my next actions. 48 hour rule is in effect and won't make any decisions until that is up. Seriously considering shifting gears soon.
Last night rather than trying to keep busy or trying to suppress the pain I just felt it and acknowledged it. Seemed to work because in the past today would have been rough. It still hurts a little but it's not driving me and I'm actually in a pretty good mood and in a good place.
Thing last night that I came to realize the more I thought about it was the play date didn't bother me much. Not a fan of her taking my son out with another guy but that isn't what the main issue was either. The issue is her total disregard for my feelings, or anyone else's, through this process. I know anger and resentment is her fuel to continue doing this. I also think she feels the need to push people away that have been with her during her "old life" so she can start this new perfect life. I don't know if she's consciously trying to hurt anyone and I'm trying to believe she isn't; the fact of the matter is she is hurting people and I need to protect myself and my kids. (Kids have been really struggling the last few weeks, maybe I'll post the details. It's been one of hardest things I've ever dealt with. My mom is watching S5 today and texted me she was in bathroom crying about something he said this morning when he got up...).
I have plans for most the weekend that I'm looking forward to. I realize that I let myself get hurt by these things because I still haven't completely 'backed into reality'. I still wasn't giving it all up because I didn't want to even though I knew I needed to. I was taking steps but was having trouble with the last few, not an easy thing. Maybe this is what I needed... 30 more hours to think
Spartan, sorry you're going through this. Let me point out a few things:
1. The fact that you're not letting your W's actions paralyze you anymore is HUGE. You're leaving that dark place where no one wants to be.
2. You said, " I don't know if she's consciously trying to hurt anyone and I'm trying to believe she isn't; the fact of the matter is she is hurting people and I need to protect myself and my kids." Your W is doing what she thinks is best for her given her perception of the world. Choose to see her as a lost little kid rather than a malicious person. She's behaving as a person who has no idea what life is all about. Let her. It's her own journey.
3. Why 30 more hours? Is this a self-imposed deadline?
4. The D has been filed, correct? I did the same: stuck with my desire to save my M even after my H had filed. I didn't want to see that when he took that step, it was definite. Only a small % of couples change their minds once D has been filed, and a large percentage of those go back to the L a few months later to get D. Sorry. But this is what happens, and even though it's not bad to focus on the small prob of saving your M, you can't have your happiness depend on this. Heck, even if the prob was 90%, you should not let the outcome of this determine your happiness.
Best to you. Keep being an awesome dad.
Why 30 more hours? Is this a self-imposed deadline?
Yes, 48 hour rule basically says no decisions can be made for at least 48 hours after an event (theoretically not even supposed to talk with W). Kind of a cooling off period. I was just implying I have at least 30 more cooling off hours before I start thinking about my next steps. Can't see anything changing course that's in my head but that's why the rule is in effect.
I then said I might be done trying to be friends because my friends don't continuously hurt me (she's said/ done other things last few days to me and kids).
Let me ask you this, if a good friend of yours came up to you and told you they took their kid on a playdate with a coworker and their kid, would your reaction have been different? Point being, it doesn't make sense to tie those two together. Why would the play date be grounds for stopping your friendship with W? I think you're not looking at the R as friendship, you have greater expectations and maybe you shouldn't for now. The bigger issue here is you are still not detached! Let's look at Peanut's detachment description again:
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.
Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.
We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
You're still reacting to your W's actions with anger, bitterness and frustration! If you can detach, you will instead meet HER anger, bitterness and frustration with love! That's where you need to be. As an example, my W took the kids to the beach over Spring Break. When they got back I was asking about what they had done and S10 showed me a balloon animal, I asked him if W bought it for him and he said no, OM (suspected) had. Oops! W was quick to point out that OM wasn't on the trip with them, but he was working in a city on the way back and they had lunch with him. But here's the thing, I didn't care. And I don't mean to say I acted like I didn't care, I mean I really didn't. I didn't dwell on it, I just asked what else they had done. That is detachment, and now that I am detached I can say that there were a lot of times that I -thought- I was detached when I really wasn't. When you well and truly are detached your w's actions will not hurt you in the least.
She started getting angry and I stopped her and said this isn't about a play date or some guy, this is about your lack of regard for my feelings. Then I walked away.
I know it's tough and certainly I've had my share of falls, but brother, you've got to stick with the plan if your goal is reconciliation. The plan calls for constant PMA. Don't instigate a fight! Don't let her actions get under your skin! Pull back, detach, leave her to sort it out for herself. You say she started to get angry and you stopped her, what is anger? It's an emotion. What are you supposed to do when your W expresses emotions? Encourage her to talk about them and then validate her! Her lack of regard for your feelings? What about your lack of regard for hers?? You walked away, what does that tell her about what you think about her feelings? Sorry for the 2x4's, but sometimes we (me included) need someone to remind us of the basics.
I'm also trying to process my next actions. 48 hour rule is in effect and won't make any decisions until that is up.
Your next action is blatantly obvious, and it's going to take a lot longer than 48 hours. DETACH!!!!! You absolutely are in no position to make any decision about your R until you are fully detached.
Thanks AS for the post and I hear what you're saying. I know I haven't detached enough and I know it's something I need to do better. My issue is it's very hard to do 100% of time when living with the person while trying to show them the new you (listening better, WOA, more caring, etc...). These things aren't easy to show in a meaningful way fully detached, especially while living together.
Could I have done better, hell yes. I knew I wasn't even close to perfect in this facet by any stretch. It's one of the reasons I seriously considered S a couple months ago because I thought that would make it easier. When I'm honest I also know I didn't want to detach. Everyone can hit me with 2x4's for this because I should know better but deep down I didn't want to and wasn't ready to fully let go. I wasn't there yet in my growth. I wanted to keep some closeness, call it a false hope, call it my stubbornness, whatever. As I've been told several times on and off these boards, we find out things when we're ready to deal with them. Maybe this is the thing I needed to take the next step and fully detach.
The friend thing...
Thing last night that I came to realize the more I thought about it was the play date didn't bother me much. The issue is her total disregard for my feelings, or anyone else's, through this process.
She's been on several play dates with other dads that I never had an issue with. This one is a little different due to many other circumstances I haven't discussed on the boards. This hurt but it isn't the only thing that drove me to saying that comment, it was more the last straw. There have been MANY things over the last several weeks building up to this. My friends off the boards have been keeping me in check. The thing that drove the comment yesterday was the way she told me who she was with. It's the constant disregard for my feelings, our kids feelings, my family's feelings, and our friends feelings. Those are the reason that I don't feel like it's possible to remain friends
at this time. I hope and pray things change and we can be friends but I have to protect myself and the people I care about.
If she doesn't change and continues doing the things she's currently doing I don't want to be her friend. Besides co-parenting I have no room for her in my life. I wouldn't accept any friend that constantly lies (and admits it without remorse), disregards feelings, and continually commits to things and no shows or shows up late without a call.
Right now I can say I may entertain the possibility of R with W and will likely never lose hope but it isn't my top goal. May not be 'expected' thing to hear on a DB board but it is what it is. This is a change that's been slowly coming the last month or so. My kids are REALLY struggling with how mom is treating me and them.
My #1 goal is to protect them as much as possible while not damaging their R with their mom.
My other goals are to:
Continue to work on my and become the person I want to be
Go through this process with dignity, loyalty, and love and show my kids a good example
Protect myself and kids in the likely event the D becomes final
Somewhere after that would be R with W.
•Do I want to R with her? Maybe.
•Do I need to R with her? No (a big change in me is that while I WANT my W in my life I don't NEED her in my life).
•Do I need to protect my kids and myself? Yes.
•Do I need to detach and give it up? YES!!!
My 48 hour decision that I'm heavily leaning towards now is to detach fully. As I said, conversations would be 'boys and bills' only. In no way am I throwing in the towel, moving out, pushing D quicker, or anything like that. I'm still standing.
Next mediation in a month and supposed final court date according to her L at the end of May.
Stander,
Detatchment does give us the ability to react to things in a different way.
However detatchment does NOT require us to become doormats to offensive actions of others.
It allows us to make decisions based out of rational thought versus emotional thought and go from there.
She started getting angry and I stopped her and said this isn't about a play date or some guy, this is about your lack of regard for my feelings. Then I walked away.
I know it's tough and certainly I've had my share of falls, but brother, you've got to stick with the plan if your goal is reconciliation. The plan calls for constant PMA. Don't instigate a fight! Don't let her actions get under your skin! Pull back, detach, leave her to sort it out for herself. You say she started to get angry and you stopped her, what is anger? It's an emotion. What are you supposed to do when your W expresses emotions? Encourage her to talk about them and then validate her! Her lack of regard for your feelings? What about your lack of regard for hers?? You walked away, what does that tell her about what you think about her feelings? Sorry for the 2x4's, but sometimes we (me included) need someone to remind us of the basics.
AS,
Have you read Spartan's entire story or were you just responding to this particular post.
If you have been following along, then I am really not sure how you can encourage him to engage his W right now.
This is a woman who is pursuing D, is involved in an EA, possibly PA, and does not want to talk about her feelings or be validated right now. She simply wanted to be involved in an argument and Spartan chose not to give that to her.
Additionally, for him, NOT engaging, by stating his thought and walking away, was a complete 180.
Spartan,
I think you did wonderfully.
I also think you are actually perfectly detatched right now. Detatchment, isn't about NOT feeling or NOT caring...
It is about being able to feel whatever it is that you feel, and go on with your life, not being controlled by those feelings.
The 48 hour rule is one of my favorites and one that I forget that I have in my toolbox, usually because by the time 48 hours has passed, I don't even remember what it was I was trying to make the decision about.
Which is why it works.
Anyway...
Glad the birthday party went well.