Long story short, W and I married 8 years ago, had two kids, now 8 and 5, and I had a hard time adjusting to the changes the kids brought to our relationship. I come from a very traditional family where my dad worked two jobs, and payed the bills. My mom cooked,cleaned,raised the kids..etc. My W comes from more modern upbringing, more money..etc. During the early years of our marriage my W was struggling with being a new mom and I was struggling with financial pressures. Im the only bread winner. According to my W, I was not helpful with the kids, I only accepted the responsibility of making money. As time went on,she began to resent me for not helping out,and to make matters worse, I worked out of our home. I felt so much pressure paying for all the new stuff needed to create the life my W wanted that I began to skip out on the family things, birthdays, play dates to try to make more money etc. She resented me for it, we fought, I said things to her that I didn't mean...I started to resent her....our relationship began to break down , slowly but surely. Over the next 3 years, she sought therapy and in doing so realized that she didn't want to be married to a man like me. She warned me over the years that if I kept saying mean or critical things to her, or didn't participate w the kids more, that her love bank would gradually diminish to empty and it would be too late by then. She also said that if I was nothing but an ATM to her, once she made money, she would not need me anymore. She started grad school a few years ago and is about to graduate and get a job. Well, last December she threatened D, and now she wants me to move out. I have been trying everything since she threatened to D. Nothing seems to work, she is totally shut down from me. She said ILYBNILWY. She and I have been living in our home like a separated couple, we don't sleep together anymore. All she wants from me is for me to give her space. She has no romantic or loving feelings for me at all. She wants me to move out, but be there for the kids. We are in counseling and are now preparing to write a controlled separation agreement. I'am looking for an apt to rent. I'am confused and don't know what to do anymore. I love her and don't want our family to break up. HELP!
Welcome to the board.
Get the DR book and read it.
You need to let her go.
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Thanks Cadet, The hardest part is the nighttime,after the kids are put to bed, I want to hand out with her and she wants to be left alone.
Thanks Cadet, The hardest part is the nighttime,after the kids are put to bed, I want to hand out with her and she wants to be left alone.
Yes I understand, try to not make sense of this right now.
Just worry about yourself and your kids.
She is on a space ship with aliens right now and you must treat her that way.
Keep Posting.
Hi Nail,
I'm new here and still learning about DR principles. But all I know is that I can relate to how you feel after the ILYBINILWY bomb. This is so hard to take from someone you really love.
But you must not panick. You truly must GAL and focus on yourself and kids. My W had similar complaint not being involved with kids so you can start with that.
A lot of your sitch is similar with mine. You are not alone a lot of us here are in the same pain.
I hope this help hang in there bud.
Thanks Cadet & Newman, All my instincts for the past 3 weeks have been wrong. I'm afraid I'm ruining any chances of getting her back at all. I must detach and stop conversing with her about the sitch. I keep digging myself deeper into the hole. She only see's her point of view, which is that I was not helpful to her emotionally or with the kids for the past 6 years. Also, she said she tried to talk to me and gave me many chances, but I was not open to her or the opportunities she gave me at that time, so now "it's too late". Her heart has closed, the love switch turned off, the love bank is EMPTY! This is all too much for me to understand because I feel like she has no forgiveness or compassion or humility left in her towards me. I know I was guilty of all the stuff she's doing to me now, but I never threatened divorce or tried to force her out of the house. She's dug in and will not budge. She says we need to separate and I need to find another place to live or she will take the kids and find a place herself. She says the only chance I have of winning her back is if I do what she wants and gives me examples of people who have separated and after a year of separation, got back together. I fear that she's just telling me these stories to make it easier for me to leave and has absolutely no plans for getting back together. I think she wants to move on with someone new. Anyways, I feel like I have no other option but to move out. What do you guys think?
For the short term, I would not move out. If you have not seen a lawyer, make an appointment to know your rights regarding the kids. My H told me to leave. We discussed a trial separation and he said R would be on his terms only. Well, here I am 2 months later still at home.
Read DR, stop talking about the sitch and go about your business. It is HARD, but you can still give her some space while you are at home.
Going to GAL now, praying for things to turn around. Thanks for the support good people!
Last night after putting the kids to sleep. I left the house without telling W and went to hear friends play music at a bar. She was surprised and texted me wanting to know where i was and what time I was coming home. I texted her back and told her I didn't feel like being alone and went out w friends. This morning she said she was surprised I didn't tell her and that she didn't think we where at that point in our relationship yet. She said she didn't know if I thought thats how we should act yet, asking if it's ok for her to do that to me? I'm just tired of feeling lonely after the kids are put to bed, she told me to leave her alone at night, so this is a mixed message. I guess my question is how to balance this controlled separation living in the same house. I don't want to escalate things between us, but I do want her to know that the consequences of her requests mean that I will need to have my own life.
Everyday my sitch escalates. Yesterday I was "good" all day. Took care of myself, stayed out of her way. Did yoga, read Buddhist books, stayed calm. She had very negative energy when she was home, I remained calm and treated her with care, but it didn't change her. After the kids where put to bed, I made her a vow to work on my sh*t and prove to her that I could and would change for the better. She said she was tired and wanted to go to sleep. I left her and went downstairs to read. An hour later, I noticed she was up, her light was on in our bedroom. I felt like she lied to me to get rid of me earlier when she said she was tired and wanted to sleep. I went up to the bedroom and told her that it hurt me that she lied to me earlier. She BLEW UP! Yelling at me and swearing at me, telling me that I can't leave her alone for 24 hours ever. Yesterday would have been the first day that I was able to leave her alone, except that I messed up by going up there to tell her that I felt hurt. She wants a separation, me out of the house. She has a mediator ready to go, she would be happy to divide our assets asap and divorce asap. I feel defeated and I don't know what to do. I can't afford to move out, we are in rough shape financially. But, it seems like I can't afford not to move out because the longer I live at home, the worse our relationship gets. I feel lost right now.
We signed a controlled separation agreement for 3 months. I'm looking for a place to live. The tension is lifted and we both feel better. It just has to happen, no other way forward. I just hope the separation brings us back together. Where did everybody go? Life is happening at a pretty fast pace folks!
I think you may be making a mistake by moving out and signing any agreement before you talk to an expert. Countless people calling our office have turned things around in their marriages even though they believed it was too late. Our coaches believe that it is NEVER too late. Instead of reacting to what happens each day, you would feel better and have better control of the outcome of the situation, if you had a plan of how to interact with her that is more likely to bring her closer and not push her further away. That is what a DB coach will help you do, quickly. Please call and I will be happy to talk to you further.
Hi Nail,
I read your sitch. If you haven’t read other sitches on here, you might want to browse over some of them. I hear ya loud and clear, a lot of the same stuff in our sitches, same age kids as well. If you haven’t already, let her go and lay off. Hopefully you’re not initiating talks with her. Your moves are under a microscope right now. Hopefully a vet will chime in soon. They are very helpful and I would highly suggest following there guidance. Take care buddy, I know this stuff is extremely difficult.
_________________________________
Freshman class of 2012
Me(M):38
W:43
Together: 15 Married: 11
D:5
S:8
W wanted separation 5/5/12
Stopped living together 5/5/12
“Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude”.
Thomas Jefferson
Nail,
Sorry to hear about your situation. You need to accept that this will be one of the hardest things you will ever do. In the end you will come out the other side better.
That being said you need to start DBing like crazy. Your W has told you she wants space. Give it to her. Give her all the space she can handle. Do not initiate ANY conversations unless it's business. You have children and still live in the same house at the moment so you can't go completely dark. What you can do is make her approach you if she wants to talk. Make her miss you!!!
Don't get me wrong, when she talks listen to every word she says. Really listen! Be kind, caring, and attentive. Only do this when she talks to you. Do not go out of your way to be kind, caring, and attentive if she is doing her own thing. What I mean by that is use the opportunities she gives you, don't go seeking more.
GAL!GAL!GAL!!!
I say this because it worked for you. The night you went out with friends she missed you. She was wondering where you were, who you were with. You shocked her. That is a good thing.
You don't have to rude about this and don't take it to an extreme. Do things without letting her know. Make new friends. When she ask what you are up to be vague. Let her know that that you have been "doing some thinking" then shut up. Leave it up to her to figure out what that means.
Also you don't have to rollover because she threatens to move the D along faster if she does not get her way. She is going to hang the D over your head until it loses its power to get you to fall in line. She may say that you are pushing her away by not respecting her wishes, or your actions make a R impossible. Do not believe that. Become THE MAN. A man does not let fear stop him from doing the things he wants to do or getting the things he wants. Become a leader and she may follow.
Also become the best dad you can be. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO. Every woman likes a man who is great with her kids.
You are lucky. You are still very early in the process, and while I can't know for sure, this may be to your advantage. You can stop her movement away from you before the distance seems insurmountable.
Good luck.
Cadet, why did you say DO NOT MOVE OUT? The way my w puts it, I have no other option. If I don't, the tension between us keeps getting higher, she gets super stressed out and angry, this effects the kids and me. She says the only chance I have at getting her back is to respect and honor her wishes for a separation. The longer I hold off, the worse things seem to get between us. She threatened to take the kids and move out herself if I didn't. Thats how bad it is. So, I feel like theres no other option, and at least she'll be a little softer with me from now on. It's a three month separation and in that time we will spend time together as a family, and her and I will go to therapy once a week. So, I will still see her and my kids, and hopefully the extreme tension will go away. She will get the space she needs, and I won't have to feel lonely while Im in the same house as my w, and the kids won't feel the negative vibes. I dunno, it's all kinda confusing. At least for the moment, she has softened and that will make it easier for me to not do something stupid again!
Cadet, why did you say DO NOT MOVE OUT? The way my w puts it, I have no other option.
Of course you do, you stay and make her move out. The LBS should never move out. If the WAS wants a separation, then they need to make it happen themselves. They need to move out, they need to set up a new house, they need to make all those arrangements, they need to suffer the consequences of their decision. You want to save the M, so why would you move out? This should all be on her.
If I don't, the tension between us keeps getting higher, she gets super stressed out and angry, this effects the kids and me.
Put DB into practice and the tension will be diffused. If she tried to argue then empathize with her emotions, tell her you understand and you're sorry she feels that way. You're acknowledging her feelings without agreeing with her. It will diffuse the situation. Act "as if" everything is fine even when it isn't. Do not talk about the R, S, D or anything else relationship-wise. Keep it light and fluffy. Work on yourself- get in shape, focus on the kids, laugh, play.
She says the only chance I have at getting her back is to respect and honor her wishes for a separation. The longer I hold off, the worse things seem to get between us.
You're not holding off, she is. If she wants S then show her where the door is.
View the S as a chance for her to collect her thoughts. Give her plenty of space. Use the time to improve your appearance and attitude. When you're around her show her a strong, confident, good-looking you. Be detached but available. Read DB, DR and 5LL and change yourself. She'll notice although she won't acknowledge initially. Give it time. Patience is key. Good luck!
I made her a vow to work on my sh*t and prove to her that I could and would change for the better.
Don't say it, show her instead. DB rule 29:
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
I went up to the bedroom and told her that it hurt me that she lied to me earlier. She BLEW UP!
You backslid. You need to follow DB practices and detach. Here are a few more DB tips:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
We all backslide now and then, so don't worry about it. Just try not to repeat it.
Thanks Roughenough, I appreciate the support. This is one of the hardest things I've ever had to go through!
Thanks mshaf, I appreciate the advice. One day at a time, praying for her to change...
Thanks anotherstander, I will try to adhere to the DB rules. I think for me #26, #30 and #31 are the most challenging.
"The way my w puts it, I have no other option."
Yes you do. She's bullying you to leave.
"If I don't, the tension between us keeps getting higher,"
Which is caused by her. NOT YOU.
"she gets super stressed out and angry,"
This is HER CHOICE to act this way. It's like a child throwing a temper tantrum.
"She says the only chance I have at getting her back is to respect and honor her wishes for a separation."
BS, if she is unhappy, why should YOU leave? And she can't just go and threaten you with taking YOUR children away. They are your kids too are they not? You have an equal right to them.
What will happen is that once you're out of the house, she'll be able to do whatever she wants while you're left out high and dry. Stand firm on this. My W asked me to leave and threatened the exact same things yours did. I looked at her like she was nuts and told her that if she was unhappy, she could leave. So she did and I was happy I stood my ground.
Nail,
I am pretty new here as well. I wish my wife would actually give my concrete reasons as to where things went wrong. It woud be a lot easier to do 180's that way. So I guess that I would start with the kids. Just my two cents.
MrBond, I hear you, but my question to you is, after she left, where you able to reconcile? Or did she hold that against you? The tension between my w and I was caused by both of us in the past, but now I have calmed down, so we shall see how that affects us in the future. What do you mean " she'll be able to do whatever she wants while you're left out high and dry." I don't understand what this means? She's gonna work and she's gonna take care of the kids. What else will she do? The separation is supposed to give her space and time to think through this and see if she really wants out or if she might want to reconcile. The thing that I have to accept is that I can't control her, or how she feels. I can only respect and honor her and take care of myself.
MrBond, I hear you, but my question to you is, after she left, where you able to reconcile?
Like MrBond, at one point my W asked me why SHE should leave rather than ME. I reminded her who was saying they wanted to leave the marriage and who was working hard to keep it together. I told her she could stay there WITH ME just as long as she wanted, but if she wanted her "freedom" then that was her responsibility because I wasn't going anywhere. She said she understood and she never mentioned it again. I think she respected me for standing firm on that, I showed her that despite my pain I wasn't going to be walked on. She's shown no ill will about it since. That was about 2-1/2 months ago and she's just now moving out. My life is in enough turmoil without leaving the home I've worked so hard on for 13 years. As a side note, W is discovering the kids don't like leaving their home to go to her place. They gripe that it feels too "empty" although I'm sure they think it feels foreign too. One more reason to hold your ground.
Regarding reconciliation, we're not there yet but I'm hopeful. But I will say I've read plenty of WAW stories here in which the woman left and reconcilation did take place eventually. It seems to take anywhere from 3 months to a year unless MLC is involved (and if so, much longer).
"She's gonna work and she's gonna take care of the kids. What else will she do?"
Date other men and bring them home. It's happened here time and time again.
"The separation is supposed to give her space and time to think through this and see if she really wants out or if she might want to reconcile."
That's what they all say. Some of them really mean that, but most of them look for something else to keep them distracted. Or rather, some-one else.
MrBond, sorry to hear that. I hope thats not the case with my w.
I went to see an apt for rent today and yesterday. I wasn't really into either of them. To be honest, it's really hard for me to leave my home. I just don't want to, but I'm torn because I know my w wants the separation/space and I'm not sure how to give her that and live in the same house. We have been arguing everyday, it's not good. I have alot of anger towards her right now.
Nail,
I feel for you. You are in a really tough spot.
Back in June my H caught me "sexting" and demanded that I move out. This was the straw that broke the camel's back in a very damaged R. He threatened D VERY VERY seriously.
I was so desperate to win him back that I did move out for 3 months and stayed with my parents. We did not have any separation agreement; I left because he asked me to. (And also because he threw all of my stuff on the living room floor and became a complete lunatic.)
I will say that the space did us both a lot of good. I had to come back to the house almost every day to see my kids. That was trying. My H was so mad that would do anything to avoid me. But gradually and in very small increments, things slowly began to improve.
I have to agree with Bond and the others though: DO. NOT. MOVE. OUT. There are legal ramifications to this. I know you are scared and desperate right now, but she can move if she wants her space so badly.
After being on this board all summer, I eventually came around to this thinking and moved back into my own home at the beginning of this month. Sure, my H hated me and spat venom and threatened D and threatened to move out and all of that. But you know what? It only lasted a week, and he doesn't even bother to leave the house anymore when I am home. Turns out he doesn't need "his space" that badly.
Now we are somewhat separated in our home. I am sleeping on the sofa bed, which stinks, but at least I am at home. I am the "sinner" in this case which puts me at a disadvantage, so I accept the punishment of the sofa bed.
I do my best to leave him alone. He doesn't eat dinner with us. Fine. He loses out and ends up eating chips and salsa in bed. He doesn't want to do fun things with us on the weekends. Fine. He misses out on fun and time with his kids. Etc. I don't ask him twice. I barely ask him once.
But... I also know my H and know when and how to be affectionate with him. He's opened up to that over time and it has helped us make progress, whether he knows it or not.
My advice - work on detachment. It is hard, very hard. Do not talk to your W about the R. Leave her alone. Give her what she wants. She will realize pretty quickly that being alone is not that fun, especially if you can swing some super fun stuff with your kids. You live your life as if she weren't even a part of it, and I guarantee, you will see her come around. Look for the little signs and HANG IN THERE!!!
You come to this board as often as you need to when you feel like you are dying. We will be here for you.
Thanks Regretful, your post is really helpful to me. I appreciate your honesty and good vibes! It sounds like your approach is working, slowly but surely. I just had a talk with my w and we softened our approach after yesterdays horrible interactions. She told me that she needs time and space to process how she feels about us because of how we both failed in the past. I told her my concerns about the legal ramifications of moving out, and she assured me that she's not out to get me. She even said she would sign an agreement to not attack me legally for abandonment. She said she just needs space, thats it. I told her I would keep looking for a short term rental, but in the meantime I would take a step back to detach from her even more while Im in the house. I told her I would not engage her anymore unless it was about the kids. She seemed relieved after our conversation, we shook hands and went our separate ways to start the day. Now I just need to keep my end of the bargain!
Nail,
You just took your first baby step. Congratulations. It's the small stuff that makes all the difference. Your W already feels better about you!
Talked today in a calm way. She just got a new job and she is happy about it. It will give us health insurance for half of what we pay now, so she feels great about being able to contribute. But she said she also feels sad about our current sitch. I asked why and she said that in the past when we where under financial stress, I told her that she wasn't able to help and she told me that she was working towards helping out financially in the future, she's in grad school, and I said thats not going to help us pay the bills today, but I'll believe it when I see it. Now that she's able to contribute, she feels sad that I couldn't see the forest from the trees in the past and she resents me for it. Well I just said that I'm sorry for what I said to her in the past, that I was under such heavy financial strain that I couldn't deal. I was afraid that we would lose the house and I was acting under fear, but it was real because I could see that within a couple of months we wouldn't be able to pay our mortgage. This was also at the time when millions of people where losing their houses and i was losing my mind. I asked her to try to put herself in my shoes and feel what it felt like to be the only bread winner in the family and see yourself failing in that role. It was too much for me to handle at the time. She says that i put money before her, but that just wasn't true. I felt like I was trying to take care of the family and failing. I closed down, shut off emotionally, became depressed, said mean things that I didn't mean, bla,bla,bla...It [censored] that she is holding on to all that negative stuff from the past. I hope she can get past it, but I don't know. I'm trying very hard to detach and give her her space. I asked her to give us more time to see if her feelings will change because I'am honoring her request for space and I'am detaching as much as possible. Any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
Today my w went to NYC with her girlfriend. In the past I would have probably grilled her as to where and what she was doing, but I did a 180 and just told her to have a great time. I assured her that I would take good care of the kids and not to worry. She said she would be back by 10pm and later in the day she texted me that she would be back later, more like 11:30pm. I texted back "ok" and "have a good time". I'm not sure that I will stay up, I'm thinking I should go to bed before she comes home so that she doesn't think i'am checking up on her.
Here's a question for all you DB veterans. What do I say to my w when she asks me "How do I trust that you aren't just making these changes for the goal of getting me back, instead of doing them for you, with no intention of an outcome in mind?"
You tell her that the choices and the changes you have made are for you. You understand that she's been trying to tell you about certain things for years and you finally "hear" her.
Whether it's too late for your M or not, the changes are longlasting.
BTW,
I would change your name to something a little more upbeat. If you say that it's the "nailinthecoffin", then you're telling yourself there's no hope.
Thanks Mr.Bond. Good advice, nailinthecoffin "is in spite of" , I do have hope.
I was reading a book about parenting today to learn how to be a better father. When my wife came home, I was telling her about a chapter and she reacted defensively with anger telling me I shouldn't be schooling her because she already knows this stuff! I raised my voice a little in response to her anger and explained that I was just reflecting on what I had read. It just bummed me out because I'm trying to be so positive and she has been really negative lately. It's really hard to keep my cool around her. She keeps criticizing everything I say and do.
"She keeps criticizing everything I say and do."
They all do that.
Next time instead of reacting in anger, calmly tell her that you were just reflecting on what you read and what you learned from it. Then ask her if she's okay and how her day was. Then just listen. Kill her with kindness to diffuse the situation.
"She keeps criticizing everything I say and do."
They all do that.
Next time instead of reacting in anger, calmly tell her that you were just reflecting on what you read and what you learned from it. Then ask her if she's okay and how her day was. Then just listen. Kill her with kindness to diffuse the situation.
wisdom! ^^^
I think one of my biggest challenges is to be able to react this way when I feel attacked
I think one of my biggest challenges is to be able to react this way when I feel attacked
That was tough for me too. It helps to remind yourself of the harm that you are causing whenever you react poorly. You are taking two steps back every time. Create a mental image that flashes in your head reminding you of that.
Also, always be deliberate when you respond to anything that is said. That means that you take at least 10 seconds to respond. If you find yourself angry, remove yourself from the conversation (politely) and come back to it when you are composed.
Once I got this down, I found extremely rewarding to be the one who approached things rationally. I felt that, for the most part, I took the high road during my W and I's S. It felt REALLY good to be the one who was "in the right" so to speak.
"I think one of my biggest challenges is to be able to react this way when I feel attacked"
Then you know what to change. Just take the point that it's not personal.
Tonight I got a backhanded compliment from my wife before she went to bed. She said "this was the first week you haven't been an a-hole". I've been giving her space this week and not pressuring her for anything at all and I've been treating her like a queen, cooking amazing meals for her, complimenting her, doing all the house work, really trying to love her unconditionally. It's comments like that that make me feel like she really hates me and makes me question whether I have any hope at all of reconciliation.
Then you should have surprised her by saying "thanks". Of course you could add, "sorry I can't say the same for you". LOL
Major Backslide. After having lunch with my very recently divorced friend, he told me to deal with reality, which is that I'am living separate with my w in our house and that I need to move out and GAL. He also said I should get a mediator and split the money now, not pay her bills anymore, let her get a dose of reality of what she's asking for. He said if I don't, I'll have to deal with her dating other men etc. I had this conversation with her on the phone last night and regressed back to all the old stuff, I don't deserve this, I'm a good man, I love you, you're making the wrong decision, blah,blah,blah.... I'am a wreck. I don't know how I'm going to recover from this, I feel like it's really over now. I don't know what to do, I'm emotional and I'm angry and sad and feel very low right now. I can't for the life of me understand how she can hold onto so much anger and resentment from the past, I feel like she's projecting some other issues onto me that I have nothing to do with. It is beyond me that she would rather run,break up our family with two young innocent kids and everything we worked for in our lives instead of fighting for what we have and trying to work through our problems. Our problems are textbook stuff. I feel lost...
So, the next day I was home with the w. She didn't want to talk about the M. We both did our separate stuff, then had dinner together as a family. She was friendly to me, but I noticed that when she said my name, it sounded like she was talking to her ex. Something about the tone and inflection of her voice when she said my name really put me off. Went to bed and woke up this morning 5:45am. She was up and went to the gym to work out before she had to go to work. I woke up and got emotional from being triggered the day before. I cried for an hour and wrote down all my thoughts on pieces of paper to give her when she got home. She came home, saw my face with tears and said, " I can't do this right now, I threw the papers at her and said"read these!. She went up to the bedroom to take a shower, I followed her up and said I want to see you read them. She read them , threw them in the garbage and said she couldn't do this right now because she had to get the kids ready for school. I lost it and yelled at her,"Make a decision, either tell me you want out and you want a D, or tell me you want to work on our problems together . She was crying and she said OK, I want out!. I lost it and threw my coffee cup down at the floor and it broke in a million pieces. Then I threw my glasses at the wall. She was freaked out and was scared of me. I felt bad and tried to console her but she said don't touch me. I said ok, I'm done and went to another room to cry some more. She
took a shower and woke up the kids and pretended everything was all right. Then she went to work and said she didn't know when she would be back. I called some friends and they told me that I acted normal for somebody in my sitch and not to feel bad. I called my therapist and went to see him a few hours later. After I told him the story, he said try not to get angry in front of W again, but he said it was ok to feel the way I feel. I know I have broke all the DB rules again, and I'm not sure if my W will start a D now or move out as a reaction to this. I hope neither, I hope that time will heal this and I can continue to DB. I feel like I might need to get out of the house for my own good. The in house separation thing is really difficult because I see the W too often and she's mean to me and pushes all the sensitive buttons. Any or all advice much appreciated!
Well needless to say you f'd up pretty badly. Never ever lose your temper. Did you honestly read DB? Demanding an ultimatum ... writing out your feelings and demanding she read them, etc. All total bad moves.
If the roles were reversed and she did that to you, would you want to be married to her?
You have to learn control.
Go and give her a heartfelt apology. Tell her that she doesn't need to accept it, but you want to say how sorry you were for freaking out.
Agreed. At the least she needs an apology. Tell her you are sorry and you do not like her decision but will honor it and do your best to keep it amicable. Then DB your butt off! Leave her alone. If she stays then in a couple of days of not pursuing her you can talk to her about possibly working out something so that you can both stay there. The more she sees you GAL the better. Just DONT melt down again. If you have to avoid her for a few days so you can get yourself together.
Thanks guys, I can't believe I did that. I promised her I wouldn't act like that again, but I got triggered and the full moon! The problem is that I've been cycling through this pattern of being able to control myself for a few days and then losing my control after the calm. She doesn't believe I can keep it together. I will try again and hope she doesn't do anything drastic!
Don't make promises you can't keep. Just apologize sincerely and then move on. She has to be able to trust you and there's no trusting a person who is going to go nuts at the drop of a hat.
Your right Mr.Bond, and this is at the core of her issues with me. Trust. I had a conversation with her this morning and told her how sorry I was, and that I acted wrong. She said she could have had me forcibly removed for that. I thanked her for not doing that. She is going to be hosting a baby shower on Sat and having her girlfriend's family from out of town come over on Sunday and she asked me if I could go away for the weekend to give her space to host all of that. I feel like I should, considering what I put her through recently. She has agreed to go to counseling tomorrow with me, but said she only wants to talk about the R in counseling. Do you think I should go away this weekend?
Major Backslide. After having lunch with my very recently divorced friend, he told me to deal with reality, which is that I'am living separate with my w in our house and that I need to move out and GAL.
DO NOT MOVE OUT!!!! That's bad advice. If you want to save the M then you should force W to make the tough decisions and live with the consequences.
I had this conversation with her on the phone last night and regressed back to all the old stuff, I don't deserve this, I'm a good man, I love you, you're making the wrong decision, blah,blah,blah.... I'am a wreck. I don't know how I'm going to recover from this, I feel like it's really over now.
You're driving her away. You're applying pressure on her instead of giving her space. You're reminding her why she wants out.
I can't for the life of me understand how she can hold onto so much anger and resentment from the past, I feel like she's projecting some other issues onto me that I have nothing to do with.
Welcome to the WAS club. None of us understand it, but that's what DB'ing is all about- control the one thing you can do something about- YOURSELF. Don't try to understand the WAS, they don't even understand their own actions. They are confused and in turmoil inside even if they're acting calm and collected on the outside.
It is beyond me that she would rather run,break up our family with two young innocent kids and everything we worked for in our lives instead of fighting for what we have and trying to work through our problems. Our problems are textbook stuff. I feel lost...
If your problems are so easily fixed, what have you done to fix them? What 180's are you engaged in? You're not participating in "more of the same" behavior are you?
I cried for an hour and wrote down all my thoughts on pieces of paper
Good, it's great to write that out and get it out of your system. Then you burned it, dried your eyes and put on a positive attitude in time for her to get home, right?
She came home, saw my face with tears and said, " I can't do this right now, I threw the papers at her and said"read these!.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
She went up to the bedroom to take a shower, I followed her up and said I want to see you read them.
I feel like I'm watching a trainwreck in slow motion.
She read them , threw them in the garbage and said she couldn't do this right now because she had to get the kids ready for school. I lost it and yelled at her,"Make a decision, either tell me you want out and you want a D, or tell me you want to work on our problems together .
It's like a loaded passenger train barreling down the tracks a thousand miles an hour and the bridge ahead is completely gone.
She was crying and she said OK, I want out!. I lost it and threw my coffee cup down at the floor and it broke in a million pieces. Then I threw my glasses at the wall.
And it flies off the rails right into the abyss, people screaming their heads off all the way down.
She was freaked out and was scared of me. I felt bad and tried to console her but she said don't touch me. I said ok, I'm done and went to another room to cry some more.
KABOOM! There's a huge explosion, smoke and fire rising from the abyss.
Any or all advice much appreciated!
Read DR. Stop doing what you're doing. Be ready for a long haul ahead, it'll take months for you to undo the damage you've done in days. Do 180's on your faults and stick with them. Make them permanent. Show your W a different you- a happy, confident, exhuberant, sexy, good-looking you. Give her space and give her time. Read the DB 180 tips daily, copy them to a file on your computer and read them over and over again to remind yourself what to do and not do. Good luck!
Thanks AnotherStander, I will take your advice.
If I don't move out, she says she will take the kids and move out. Should I be ok with this?
Of course you shouldn't be ok with it, but DON'T MOVE OUT!!!!! Do you think she could be bluffing? My H threatened to do the same, but he's still here. Granted, we are not exactly living in paradise, but he hasn't moved out.
If she does move out, you still have the right to see your kids. You can get a separation agreement if you need to. I am not a lawyer but there may be some legal issues not in her favor if she tries to take the kids. You should probably consult a divorce attorney if you can at this point, just to get the lay of the land.
At this point, you gotta let her go, as hard as that seems. What you're doing is only going to push her away further.
She is going to threaten you up and down and sideways... be prepared.
If I don't move out, she says she will take the kids and move out. Should I be ok with this?
I totally agree with RegretfulLA. You might want to read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, it dovetails with DB in that he says if the spouse threatens to leave then you support them. Validate their emotions- say that you understand why they feel that way and you support their decision to leave. Often the WAS feels trapped and caged, and when the cage door is thrown open they're suddenly not to sure they want to walk out.
As RegretfulLA said, do not leave yourself. Your W needs to make the tough decisions and she needs to live with the inconvenience and ramifications of those decisions.
You should negotiate visitation with the kids, it's not fair of her to threaten to just take them away without working it out with you. Things have to be negotiated in a separation and it should be done as amicably as possible.
Separation is not the end of the M. It may be a needed step towards reconciliation.
Thanks Stander and Regretful, I hear what you're saying, but I have this feeling that if I don't move out and she is forced to move out with the kids, she will resent me for it because she will blame me for not moving out which forces her to uproot the kids. The kids are our #1 priority in all of this, so i feel guilty not being the one to move. If I moved out, it would have less impact on the kids.
Thanks Stander and Regretful, I hear what you're saying, but I have this feeling that if I don't move out and she is forced to move out with the kids, she will resent me for it because she will blame me for not moving out which forces her to uproot the kids. The kids are our #1 priority in all of this, so i feel guilty not being the one to move. If I moved out, it would have less impact on the kids.
Who's forcing her to move? Not you. You want her to stay, right? Moving is her decision.
There's always a way to work through the logistics. In my case neither of us wanted to move the kids to another school, so their address is my address. We have 50-50 visitation (weekly intervals). Even when they're with me, W comes over to my house each morning and gets them off to school (I leave for work early). Even when she has them I pick them up each afternoon and bring them to my house, then W picks them up on her way home. This was all resolved before W moved. These are tough conversations to have, but it's got to be done if you don't want it all to blow up in your face.
It sounds to me like you're trying to justify your moving out. If SHE need space, why would YOU move out?
I'm not trying to justify moving out, I'm feeling guilt for disrupting my children's lives.
First off, you need to understand something. YOU have nothing to feel guilty about. YOU are not the one disrupting your children's lives.
The WAS has the uncanny ability to make the LBS feel tons of guilt and feel like $h*t. They deflect all blame so that they don't need to feel responsible for anything. After all it's all their spouse's fault right? WRONG.
If your W insists on you leaving, tell her that she's the one that's unhappy so she needs to leave. Next when she threatens to take the children, tell her that if she does then you will be splitting households. Set the ground rules now and don't let her steam roll you.
Just so you understand, most of the WAS's tell the LBS to leave. My W told me to leave because she was "unhappy". Of course this was before I found out about her A. I looked at her like she was nuts and told her that if she was unhappy, then she could leave. So she did. And I'm glad I did that.
One of the things I'm constantly being told on this board is "get a backbone." A nice way to say "grow a pair." Seriously though - it's good advice. I know you feel guilty and you just want her to take you back/love you and you think that standing up to her will disrupt that and that maybe if you do what she wants you'll soothe the savage beast.
Wrong. You'll just look weak.
She can move out, she can deal with the inconveniences, she can find her own place.
I moved out (against everyone's advice) and when I came back (against my H's wishes) he yelled and screamed and stamped his feet and called me names and said I wasn't taking his feelings into consideration. My moving out allowed us to cool off but it didn't change his feelings toward me AT ALL.
And yes, I agree with Bond, she will try to guilt trip you six ways to Sunday. It's incredibly hard but if you can steel yourself against that (at least in her presence) you'll be well ahead of the game.
Thanks for the support Regretful and Bond, I hear you loud and clear. My other concern is that by not moving out, I'am not really giving her the space she might need to miss me. If we live in the same house and see each other everyday, even though we sleep in separate bedrooms, and only talk about the R for an hour a week in therapy, she still sees me everyday and we still act as if everything's cool in front of the kids. It also creates tension between us. I guess what I'm trying to say is I wonder if a TRUE SEPARATION , separate houses, would help more then what we are doing now?
I'm not trying to justify moving out, I'm feeling guilt for disrupting my children's lives.
How are you disrupting their lives? (you are not) Isn't it your W doing that? (yes) Do you think by moving out you'll not be disrupting their lives? (you will) What do you think the kids will think about you when they see YOU moving out of the home? (they'll think you're abandoning them)
My other concern is that by not moving out, I'am not really giving her the space she might need to miss me.
You'll do far more damage by moving out yourself then any benefit you might get in helping her to miss you. The fact is if she stays in the home she'll probably never miss you. You also should consider this statistic:
Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later
And what did these couple cite as the number one reason?
In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.
So basically, if you just stay together and don't even try to work on the problems the chances are very good that eventually you'll outlast the problems and be happily married again. My W moved out, but it is NOT what I wanted. I wanted her to stay. I felt strongly that we could outlast this setback. But I couldn't force her to stay and I didn't try to. If she's set on leaving then support her decision. But don't let her browbeat you into leaving.
Look, there's every reason in the world for you NOT to move out. You are stubbornly refusing to hear the reasoning. You have some delusion that you will help the kids by moving out, but in fact you will harm your R with them. Simply put, there's not a single good reason for you to move out, and there are many reasons for you not to.
Forgot to post the link to the article from which the above quotes came from:
http://www.americanvalues.org/html/r-unhappy_ii.htmlThis is something Mr Bond posted a link to a while back, it's a great article.
Great feedback and link. Thank you for reposting.
One other thing that I actually just realized today - my kids are both way less stressed now that I'm back in my house. It was very painful for them over the summer when I'd spend time with them and then leave (it was painful for me too obviously). I feel like now that they are calmer, we can be calmer. At least I can; I guess my H still has some anxiety/depression issues.
Also, my H and I talk about our R for at least an hour once a week just by virtue of being in the same house. You'll talk about it MORE if you have the opportunity. True that she won't miss you if YOU leave. It will feel like a relief to her. She has to leave to miss you.
Thanks bond/regretful & stander, well I will do my best to detach from W and give her as much space as possible, whilst remaining in the house. This is gonna take a whole lotta patience. It really [censored] because my natural instinct is to want to love her and I can't! I hope we make it to the other side. That article was informative Bond, thx
Had a conversation with w last night before bed. She told me she was not feeling anything for me love wise and that she still felt restricted by my presence in the house. She said she felt confused by me and why I was still sticking around with "someone who felt nothing for you". She rehashed the reasons why she fell out of love in the past and now the love is gone. I told her we are still married and that marriages go through ups and downs and that I was prepared to go through this tough time with her. She said she was sick of me telling her about the ups and downs of marriage. She asked me if I love her , why I don't let her go. I said, your free to go,but I don't want you to go. I asked her to give us more time and told her I would give her her space in the house. She feels nothing but negative feelings for me. This really hurts!
This is your opportunity to "be the better option." She is going to feel this way for a while. Remember, she has the option to move out if she really wants to. She is trying to make it easier on herself by asking you to move out.
She's annoyed that you won't comply with her wishes right now. Let her spin and do her thing. You'll start to have small opportunities to show her your changes and to speak in her "love language". (Read The Five Love Languages if you haven't. It's short and will hopefully help you understand some of her unhappiness).
Having been in this situation myself, I tell you that things are better now than at the beginning of this mess 4 months ago. Things might even be better then they were BEFORE this mess. We're communicating now and there's less tension between us. Far from perfect - we're still doing a lot of things separately, but it's improved, even though we're still in the same house and he has wanted me out.
It takes a LOT of patience and restraint to DB. Keep coming to the board and reading so you can feel supported. Try to stay out of the R conversations unless you feel they can be productive. Mine never are, it's just rehashing the past for the millionth time. Focus on you, focus on your kids, focus on keeping things running smoothly at home. Smile and be supportive. It is hard but it gets easier as you practice. Good luck, keep us posted!
Thanks Regretful. It's really hard to live in a platonic relationship with my wife. I always feel like I want to approach her to give love, but I know I will be rejected and then she will get mad that I put myself in that position again. We sleep in separate bedrooms and it feels really bad to me. I will continue to DB and I hope & pray she will come around.
"Had a conversation with w last night before bed. "
Bad idea. Did you really read DR?
I'm really struggling with sticking to the DB rules. I keep going back and forth and I think my w is getting confused by my behavior patterns...
I asked her to give us more time
Don't ask her that.
and told her I would give her her space in the house.
Do that.
She feels nothing but negative feelings for me. This really hurts!
Par for the course. Hang in there!
She softened this morning, I did a good job this weekend. Patience my friends.
Yes, that's it! You need to whittle away. Put the sledgehammer down.
She goes out without her wedding ring. She comes home and doesn't want to talk to me, she wants her space. I'm giving it to her, but it feels so bad to me. Living like this is very painful.
I totally get it, Nail. I went through the same. On my birthday, H watched the kids and when I came home, he ran down the stairs and out the door without so much as a word. It was awful. He has ignored me in front of other people. He has been rude, mean, spiteful, gossipy, has called me names to my face and probably behind my back too.
Nail, think of this as the "new normal." Your old M is dead. Your task now is to get her to come back to you so you can start our new M. But she's pissed right now because you wouldn't move out and now the ball is in her court. Either she has to follow through and act on it, or she has to let it go. It is so much easier to have you move out so she doesn't actually have to do anything.
Ironically, getting some cajones in this situation has helped your case, even though it doesn't seem like it right now. You have shown her you're strong, you aren't going to be bullied. Women like that. Plus, you're forcing her hand which makes it that much harder on her to walk out.
Trust me, as much as this hurts and sux right now, it will get better. She can't keep this up forever. It's impossible. And you are going to be such a good DB'er that she is going to see your changes and want to spend time with you.
One thing I did that MWD recommends in DR: try to figure out what the first sign would be that something was really changing. Break it down into VERY small manageable realistic goals. At the beginning of my sitch, my goals were "Have a 10 minute conversation without yelling." "Speak to him face to face and look each other in the eye." Etc. I look back on it now and think about how far we have come. Now my H lets me snuggle with him (although he doesn't reciprocate). We talk, we make plans for the kids together.
Watch for the baby steps and signs and learn to appreciate them.
Thanks RLA, I appreciate the encouraging words! One day at a time, I have to remind myself that it took years to get here and it will take time to heal. Patience, discipline and some thickening of the skin.
A few nights ago I had a conversation with w about us making love again, (I know Bond, WTF am I doing!!!) She reiterated that she doesn't love me like that and that there was absolutely no way that was gonna happen again. Then the whole story of why/how she fell out of love with me over a long period of time,and all my wrongs. She said she's only interested in developing a friendship with me, but doesn't know if thats possible for me. I told her I did want to be friends.She also told me that this sitch would be easier if I moved out and I told her that I wouldn't abandon the kids. Anyways, I'm not sure how to proceed. Is it possible to do the LRT and still treat her as a friend? She just won't let go of her story from the past, she says she fell out of love and it's too late. Is it really too late? Or can can love be rekindled? I think that is my biggest question from this whole experience.
After reading LuckLuke's posts, I too am wondering if I need to take a stand on sleeping in kids bedroom for the past two months. I think if I told my w I wanted to sleep in our bedroom again, she would say fine, I'll sleep with the kids. No progress. This is like a game of chess...
So you asked to make love to her and think you can demand for her to sleep in the same bed as you after you went psycho on her a few days ago?
Really?
Do you need sex that badly that you're going to sound like you're needy? Do you think that's attractive to your W?
Hey if you want to kill all chances you have, go for it.
I guess you're right Bond. I need to take some time off from her before I totally blow it, if I haven't already.
She goes out without her wedding ring. She comes home and doesn't want to talk to me, she wants her space. I'm giving it to her, but it feels so bad to me. Living like this is very painful.
I'm perplexed that when she's sending such obvious signals that she is "done" with you (in her current state of mind) that you actually broached the subject of having sex with her. That had to come off to her as incredibly needy, and the last thing you want is her thinking you're needy. You're doing the opposite of DB'ing. What you need to do is detach and GAL. You need to show her strength, character and independence.
She also told me that this sitch would be easier if I moved out and I told her that I wouldn't abandon the kids.
Well you did this right at least
I wouldn't have said that though, because you're implying that if she leaves then she is abandoning the kids. My W asked why she was the one that had to go instead of me, and I flat-out told her that I was the one fighting for the marriage, I was the one doing everything I could while she was doing nothing. I told her I supported her decision if she felt she had to move, but if she wanted to stay then I was willing to work with her on the M just as long as she wanted to stay. But my leaving was never an option.
Anyways, I'm not sure how to proceed. Is it possible to do the LRT and still treat her as a friend?
Why do you think you need to do the LRT? If you've read DR then you know everything she's telling you is straight out of the WAS script. You shouldn't be surprised at all. What should you do? Detach. GAL. Work on your 180's. Use the opportunity while she's home o show her 180's. There's no need for LRT yet, that's what you do when you're about ready to drop the rope and move on.
She just won't let go of her story from the past, she says she fell out of love and it's too late. Is it really too late? Or can can love be rekindled? I think that is my biggest question from this whole experience.
Again, this is straight from the WAS script. Not surprising at all. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see, what does that DB tip mean to you?
Stander & Bond, thanks for your insight! The sex thing was needy, and I know it was wrong, but at the time I felt like I needed to test it. I also felt like her and I do need to connect again like that, but obviously thats not on the table for her right now. I get caught up and confused with my emotions alot lately. I've been reading so much and my head is buzzing with all this information. I appreciate the advice from you and everyone else on this forum.
My w texts and phones her "best girlfriend" from 6am all day until she goes to sleep around 11pm. It's so much that I'm beginning to think that they are having an affair. Is this normal behavior for woman friends?
She came home from work and gave me a hug. It'd her I'd pick up son from school so she could rest. I noticed she didn't have her wedding ring on and I couldn't stop myself from asking her if she ever wears it anymore. She said she does. But was in a rush to get to work today. I called her from my sons school as I was waiting for him and told her I didn't want to act passive aggressive w her. I said I feel uncomfortable w her not wear g the ring and also with me not sleeping in our bed. Then I said I won't mention it again.
My w texts and phones her "best girlfriend" from 6am all day until she goes to sleep around 11pm. It's so much that I'm beginning to think that they are having an affair. Is this normal behavior for woman friends?
Yes. It's something of an EA. My W did the same with her newly separated BFF for months, texting morning to night. Her BFF was her enabler, adding fuel to her "I want to be free!" fire. Then W moved out and they hardly speak or text anymore. I'm doing a bit of mind-reading here, but I think they went out a few times after W moved and W may have realized that's not the life she wants after all. She seems to have forgotten that she didn't even like clubbing when she was in her 20's. W has since returned to kid and family activities, but so far she's not reaching out to me beyond being friendly. I'm still giving her space and time.
I noticed she didn't have her wedding ring on and I couldn't stop myself from asking her if she ever wears it anymore. She said she does. But was in a rush to get to work today.
LOL! So she couldn't spare the one second it takes to put on a ring. When I noticed my W quit wearing hers I asked about it and she said she had cleaned her hands and didn't have a chance to put it back on. That was months ago and it's never been back on her finger. I guess her hands are really clean
Long talk tonight, calm and honest. She said I'm a crazy person that keeps running into a brick wall. She said she is totally shut down from me and I'm in denial. Even though I said it takes work to get through the hard stuff in marriages, she said what if one person isn't willing to do the work. She said she isn't willing, that she has tried and it's too late. She said "it would take 5 years for you to change, do you really think I should wait around for 5 years?" I said I could change faster then that, but she doesn't believe me. I validated her feelings, told her I have work to do on myself. She said she wants to see a mediator so that I would find out what I legally need to pay her. She said she never was "in love with me" . Because I was not able to really see her. I was not able to connect to her emotionally and I was critical of her for the entire marriage. Her friendship with her girlfriend is just a close friendship. I was tripping. I don't feel like giving up. I guess I'm gonna keep hitting that brick wall for awhile. Oh Lord!
She also keeps telling me that she is "on the other side" . And that when i get there, I will understand . She means that because I abandoned her emotionally in the past, she went inside herself and emerged a much stronger person. I'am just beginning this process now and feeling all the emotional pain of it.
You are right at the beginning of your sitch. At the beginning of mine there was tons of yelling, tons of arguing, tons of crying. Changes take time. Months. Not days or weeks. Months or years.
The hard part about all this DB is that you have to be strong enough to make the changes and to ride it out at the same time. You will have to endure more BS from your W than you ever thought possible. She is on a crazy train right now.
Just to give you some examples of what happened with me, at first my H was like, all cool with everything. Don't worry, we'll be best friends. Then he started freaking out, threatening, demeaning me, name calling, throwing stuff, being a total a-hole. He did this at least 3 times in the first 3 months of our sitch. When he wasn't doing this, he was either not looking at me or downright ignoring me, or leaving the house when I was there (we separated for 3 months). He also sent nasty texts quite frequently. I had to put all of this aside for the sake of DB.
Now things are much quieter. He's still not in a very good place but I'm reaching some of my small milestones like having him eat dinner with us. He's confused and depressed. I am trying to love him through it but give him space at the same time and it's hard. He may very well file. Who knows.
Key is to be strong for YOU and for your kids. She will notice as soon as she gets her head out of her butt, and that may take a while. Get inspiration from some of the male DB'ers here. They are strong!
This morning she said she wants to be friends and I said I'd like that too, but I also told her that I did want to have intimacy with her again. Then I said I was thankful that she went to mc with me and that I would like to have a date with her once in awhile, to have fun together without talking about the marriage. She said that just brings up resentment/anger from the past because I failed to value a date night with her in the past. I said she should try to ignore the past and be in the present and she got mad and stopped the conversation. Good morning!
Hold onto your N.U.T.S is a good book!
Therapy tonight, she said she wanted a divorce, I said I didn't,she said she was afraid of what I may do if she did file for divorce, I told her not to worry, I was working on myself and that I understood that i couldn't have an outcome in mind, that I was doing it for me no matter what the outcome. some pressure was relieved.
Therapy tonight, she said she wanted a divorce, I said I didn't,she said she was afraid of what I may do if she did file for divorce, I told her not to worry, I was working on myself and that I understood that i couldn't have an outcome in mind, that I was doing it for me no matter what the outcome. some pressure was relieved.
Your first post was about 6 weeks ago, was that around when BD was? If so then you are very early in the process still. It is quite common for D talk to get thrown around a lot early on and then suddenly dropped and not talked about again for months if at all. If she brings it up then you might suggest taking things one step at a time. Separation should always precede D. Once S happens, the pressure to D is greatly diminished and it usually goes on the back burner.
BD was dropped last December, but I was in and out of town with my job until 6 weeks ago. She waited to deal with me until I got home. The in house separation started 6 weeks ago.
The problem is that she fell out of love with me years ago and now says her love bank is empty. She is detached from me and feels nothing for me except bothered when I want any of her time or affection.
I know I'm not supposed to snoop, but I saw an email she wrote to her friend tonight that said she was surprised how detached she was from me and that she thought I was slowly coming to terms with a divorce with her. She also wrote that I wasn't moving out and that she was going to find a place to live with our kids and move out soon. I talked to some of my friends tonight who told me to try to give her as much space as possible and not kiss or hug her for the next month. They said if she doesn't move towards me after a month to forget it and accept that she's gone for good. Anyone have any advice? I'm not feeling that anxious right now, I guess I'm starting to detach too. This doesn't look very promising. Should I continue to go to therapy with her, or should I just throw in the towel and accept that she doesn't love me anymore and get divorced? Is there any hope left or am I in denial as she puts it.
I wouldn't concidering yourself detached just yet! I thought that too but after about a week and as soon as something significant happened in my life my feelings resurfaced with a vengeance.
Is there a way to start filling her love tank on the sly? How does she need to be loved? If it's acts of service, like it is for many women, you might be in luck because you can do helpful things without pressure or being in her face.
My H's is physical affection. Somehow I have been able to get him to accept that from me and it has made a really big difference.
Give her time and space. Eventually life will catch up w her and she will come back to you needing something, some kind of support. When she does, you have to be rock solid. For now, smile, be supportive and loving, but let her run the show.
After putting the kids to bed, I dressed up and told my w I'm going out, she got upset, said "you didn't tell me earlier you had plans, where are you going?" I said I'm going out, what does it matter to you, you want a divorce. I'll be back in a few hours. She said "your taking this to a new level". I said I'll be back in a few hours. I had a hard time not smiling because of her reaction. Hoping this new gal behavior will have a positive effect on our sitch. I'm going to continue this for a month to see if makes a difference or not. I just hope it doesn't backfire me.
I don't know if this really is GALing. It sounds like you directly taunted her and that really doesn't seem cool.
That wasn't my intention.
Let us know what she says tomorrow! If she asks, let her know you enjoyed yourself, even if you didn't. But don't rub it in, just be casual about it.
I hear ya. Just trying to raise the issue so you could think about it.
What did she say when you got home?
She asked me this morning how my night was, I said fun. Then after breakfast in the car with the kids she said we have to have a talk. I said ok. She said it was unloving of me to do what I did last night, we just got a new puppy and she said it was insensitive of me to just leave her and the kids with the new puppy. Also, she asked me how I would feel if she just got dressed up and left me with the kids at night without telling me where she was going and no preparation. I said she walls me off, tells me to give her space every night and it wouldn't make much of a difference. I said I was only gone for a few hours. I was trying to give her space. She's in a crappy mood today and I can feel her coldness. She's looking at the attractive young men out on the street while we're driving. I'm just maintaining my calm and trying not to get affected. I want to continue my goal of one month of this detached, no kisses/hugs, taking care of myself routine to see if it will have a positive effect on her. The balance of tough love is very difficult, I hate the game I have to play, but nothing I've done so far has changed our sitch. I love her so much and I hope this will work for us.
Does anyone have an opinion of how I acted? Am I on the right track? I do feel conflicted about all of this.
How could I have done better?
Could we have a vet weigh in please?
I just can't stop. I talked to her again tonight and she got real mad. I asked her how long she thought this would go on and she went nuts. I just have to stop talking to her. She seems irrational to me, do you think she might be having a mlc?
Regarding you going out and leaving her alone, you were an @$$ plain and simple.
"I just can't stop."
Which is why you're going to D.
"I talked to her again tonight and she got real mad."
I would too.
"I asked her how long she thought this would go on and she went nuts."
YOu keep talking as if this is something that she's just going to "snap out of". She's not going to. In fact, after reading your posts, it's totally understandable why she's leaving you. In fact, she details it quite specifically and you just don't get it. You hear but you don't LISTEN.
Like the other night when you up and left. You thought you were being clever by leaving, but she saw you as an @$$ for just up and leaving her and the kids alone with the puppy. It's no wonder she feels abandoned by you.
In fact, you made some comment about how she's "looking for young men" while you were driving. That's just your hurt feelings talking. It's immature and childish.
"She seems irrational to me, do you think she might be having a mlc?"
No she's doing what she's doing because you act like an @$$ and continue to do so. This is not a decision that she suddenly came up with. She did so after careful consideration.
Did you really read DR? If you did, then you know it's all about consistent change. YOu have to change your behavior and keep it constant in order for her to even remotely think about going back to you.
All I see here is you constantly blaming her for things without taking any responsibility. You will argue that you have, but if you did, you would stop acting badly and start acting the way you should be.
Thanks for that Bond, I'm really struggling with how to act while I'm living at home and trying to DB, mostly the balance between detachment and friendship. Your right, I've made a lot of mistakes. I'll try harder and Ill read the DB book again.
She asked me this morning how my night was, I said fun. Then after breakfast in the car with the kids she said we have to have a talk. I said ok. She said it was unloving of me to do what I did last night, we just got a new puppy and she said it was insensitive of me to just leave her and the kids with the new puppy.
Well I guess you can see now that this didn't work. GAL isn't about just walking out on your family on a whim. There's nothing wrong with being a little mysterious, but you still have to respect your W and tell her if you're making plans to go out. Give her a few days notice next time. If she asks you where you're going just say "out with some friends", be a little vague. But don't just walk out the door again with no notice.
Also, she asked me how I would feel if she just got dressed up and left me with the kids at night without telling me where she was going and no preparation. I said she walls me off, tells me to give her space every night and it wouldn't make much of a difference
Wrong reaction. You need to validate her emotions. A better response would have been "you sound frustrated, I'm sorry you feel that way, I thought you might like the space but I see now that this upset you and I won't do it again without letting you know in advance. Would that be better?" Instead you placed blame on her. She no doubt read this as "more of the same" behavior.
She's looking at the attractive young men out on the street while we're driving.
That sounds like mind-reading. Mind-reading leads to assumptions and bitterness.
The balance of tough love is very difficult, I hate the game I have to play, but nothing I've done so far has changed our sitch.
Detachment is not tough love, and it's not a game. You have to LOVINGLY detach. That means do NOT be cold and indifferent as it sounds like you have been. It simply means pulling back, giving your W time and space to think, dropping your expectations, but being available if she wants to talk. And if/ when she wants to talk, then you be a fantastic listener. Make eye contact, nod, lean forward, validate her emotions. From one of Michele's books:
-- successful DBers cherish their spouse and show a great deal of compassion. They almost always keep their pain to themselves... they "act as if" things are normal in their life.
-- successful DBers are outstanding listeners. They let their spouse do 80% of the talking when there is dialog. When they speak they speak 'lovingly' with candor and honesty.
-- successful DBers validate their spouse's feelings even when they disagree with them.
Ask yourself if you're being compassionate towards your wife in your detachment.
Thank you AnotherStander! Your advice is well taken! I will try again, but this time with more love and compassion. I think I'm getting confused by all of the advice I've been getting from my friends and I really need to concentrate on my core feelings. Sometimes it's easy to get caught up with what people tell you based on their experience, which is valid for them, but not for your particular sitch. Also, it's Very challenging to be compassionate with a waw who consistently undermines you by telling you she wants a D or S. I guess thats where detaching is helpful.
"I think I'm getting confused by all of the advice I've been getting from my friends"
Friends are great. But they have nothing invested in your M. They don't understand as much as we have because they've never been through this.
"and I really need to concentrate on my core feelings."
IMHO, this is wrong. It's what's gotten you in trouble in the first place. Follow the DB rules and give your W space.
Thanks Bond, I will read DB again and do my best to follow the rules , back on the horse again. : )
Thank you AnotherStander! Your advice is well taken! I will try again, but this time with more love and compassion. I think I'm getting confused by all of the advice I've been getting from my friends and I really need to concentrate on my core feelings.
You're quite welcome
It's great that you have a network of friends you can fall back on and you should absolutely do so, it's part of GAL. But as MrBond said, their advice often doesn't align with DB and frequently doesn't align with saving the M either. What I do is concentrate on DB'ing and when friends give me contradictory advice I listen to them and show appreciation, but I dismiss it. I think I'm on my 4th read through DR, if you keep reading it over and over it's a lot easier to discern good advice from bad.
Also as MrBond said, try not to let your feelings get in the way of things. This is hard to do, but you need to look at DBing from a more logical/ pragmatic view. IE, when a situation comes up with your W you need to set your emotions aside and logically process the appropriate response. An example might be this:
Also, it's Very challenging to be compassionate with a waw who consistently undermines you by telling you she wants a D or S.
The emotional side of you no doubt wants to beg/ plead/ negotiate. Our natural reaction is to say "but that's not what I want!!! Can't you see it'll wreck our family, our finances, everything we've worked so hard for???" But through DB'ing we know this is the opposite of what we should do and will just drive the spouse farther away. So we have to set emotions aside, put the brain into gear and think through the proper DB response, which would be something like "you sound frustrated, is that how you feel? I can understand why you would feel that way. I want you to be happy and if you feel separation will bring you happiness then I support your decision." This indicates to her that you're on her side. You remove the conflict from the situation. Most WAS's feel caged in and if you throw the cage door open then suddenly they're not so sure they want to leave after all. Often they still do, but sometimes separation is what they need to truly get the space and time they want to process their emotions. It's much better to separate on amicable terms like this then it is to constantly argue about it and come home to find her gone one day.
If I were to tell her I support a separation, would it be better for me to leave( if she agreed to not hold abandonment against me in a divorce), or should I tell her I support a separation if she leaves, knowing she will take the kids). I believe that if she does leave, she will file for divorce at that time.
Did she tell you she wanted you to separate and leave?
If I were to tell her I support a separation, would it be better for me to leave( if she agreed to not hold abandonment against me in a divorce), or should I tell her I support a separation if she leaves, knowing she will take the kids). I believe that if she does leave, she will file for divorce at that time.
Don't tell her that you support S, just that you support HER. If she says she wants S, then tell her you understand and you support her decision. That's not the same as saying you want or support S. In Dobson's Love Must Be Tough he says it's like throwing the cage door open to the spouse that feels caged in. You're not kicking them out, just opening the cage door to show them you're not holding them against their will. But stepping out of the cage is a choice they must make on their own.
In general if the WAS wants S then it's best to tell them you're staying and that they need to leave because leaving creates hardships (getting a new place, moving stuff, getting bills set up, etc.) that the WAS should suffer through to help them understand that S is not all shiny rainbows, it can be a pain in the rear. Plus kids don't like being displaced, they want to stay at "home base". So this too puts the WAS at a disadvantage. But each sitch is different and sometimes there may be financial or other reasons that the LBS needs to move.
If I were to tell her I support a separation, would it be better for me to leave( if she agreed to not hold abandonment against me in a divorce), or should I tell her I support a separation if she leaves, knowing she will take the kids). I believe that if she does leave, she will file for divorce at that time.
I haven't had a chance to read your whole sitch. But I'd recommend consulting a lawyer regarding abandonment. A verbal agreement only holds so much weight.
If I were to tell her I support a separation, would it be better for me to leave( if she agreed to not hold abandonment against me in a divorce), or should I tell her I support a separation if she leaves, knowing she will take the kids). I believe that if she does leave, she will file for divorce at that time.
Don't tell her that you support S, just that you support HER. If she says she wants S, then tell her you understand and you support her decision. That's not the same as saying you want or support S. In Dobson's Love Must Be Tough he says it's like throwing the cage door open to the spouse that feels caged in. You're not kicking them out, just opening the cage door to show them you're not holding them against their will. But stepping out of the cage is a choice they must make on their own.
In general if the WAS wants S then it's best to tell them you're staying and that they need to leave because leaving creates hardships (getting a new place, moving stuff, getting bills set up, etc.) that the WAS should suffer through to help them understand that S is not all shiny rainbows, it can be a pain in the rear. Plus kids don't like being displaced, they want to stay at "home base". So this too puts the WAS at a disadvantage. But each sitch is different and sometimes there may be financial or other reasons that the LBS needs to move.
AT, any ideas on a good script for this? Simply, "W, separation isn't what I want but I support you and your decision?"
Also, through all this he still calls/texts me several times each day with day to day stuff or funny stories - acting like everything is fine. Same with in person interaction most of the time.
Yes, first she asked me to leave, when I told her I wouldn't leave, she said she would and she would take the kids with her.
Then you tell her that she is more than welcome to leave, but the children will be staying with you or be split between households. When was the last time she asked you to leave?
Last week in therapy she said she wanted a divorce.. Generally. When I don't give her her space, she says she wants a S.. She wrote her friend an email last week saying that she thought I was coming to terms with a divorce, but that I wasn't moving out. So she was planning on getting a place and moving out with the kids and then filing for D
In therapy, what has been your decision if in case you get a D? What's your plan?
I've been holding onto hope that therapy will help us reconcile. I don't want a divorce, so i guess my plan is to just DB and ride it out as long as possible, hopeing that time and my changes will help her turn around. I realize divorce is a possibility, but I don't want to think about it until I get there. We've been living an in-house S now for around 2 months. She's not interested in talking about the R except in therapy. She says she doesn't love me and she feels completely detached from me. I've done the usual emotional behavior in the beginning, but now have begun to detach a little bit. I'm sad and lonely, a bit depressed by the sitch, but still holding onto hope that in time things might get better. I'am giving her space, and trying to be loving and kind to her, and not needy anymore.
AT, any ideas on a good script for this? Simply, "W, separation isn't what I want but I support you and your decision?"
There's a really good example script in Love Must Be Tough. Let me know if you don't have the book and I'll look it up and type it here.
AT, any ideas on a good script for this? Simply, "W, separation isn't what I want but I support you and your decision?"
There's a really good example script in Love Must Be Tough. Let me know if you don't have the book and I'll look it up and type it here.
I don't have that book. If you could assist it would be appreciated! Thanks
I don't have that book. If you could assist it would be appreciated! Thanks
No problem, here it is:
"Spouse, I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage and, obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1990 (or whenever). You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."
This is of course just an example from the book to give you an idea. You can use it as-is, or chop it to pieces, or write something completely different. I originally planned on making a statement similar to this to W, but in the end it became a much more abbreviated version, basically "What I want is for you to be happy, and if you truly feel that separation is what will make you happy then I support your decision and will help you in whatever way I can. I will be fine no matter what happens."
"I've been holding onto hope that therapy will help us reconcile. "
This is foolish thinking. Don't put all of your eggs in one basket. You're still relying on her to change before changing yourself.
Detaching is one thing, but at the same time while you're detached, you have to be strong rebuild yourself and your image. Let her see a different person.
Thanks Bond. You're right. The only problem is its gonna take time to change, she could very well leave before I can make significant changes! Well, I will do my best.
Every night after we put the kids to bed, she refuses to hang out with me. She goes up to our bedroom and does her own thing. I can't tell you how hard this is on me. As much as I know I should give her space, it just feels so wrong to me. And it hurts. It's been like this for two months now. I feel like it will never end. I feel lonely and stuck.
Then you go and do your "own thing". This is when you can start working on your changes. You can do it.
You can politely ask her if she wants something but you have to do it without expectations.
What changes are you going to be making?
I'm reading all the self help books. Right now Im reading books on dealing with anger and how to raise children.
We talked about the R this morning calmly. She said I only see in black and white, only see one outcome as good, and don't see the big picture, the positive of divorce.
Oh lord, gonna talk about it tonight in MC. She said that she never felt "in love" with anybody in her life ever! She seems really messed up to me, makes me question if i should try to reconcile. Makes me wonder if i could find someone who knows how to and wants to love.
Oh lord, gonna talk about it tonight in MC. She said that she never felt "in love" with anybody in her life ever!
This is just another version of ILYBNILWY. It's part of the same script. Right now she's in a place that doesn't allow her to remember the happy times. Try not to take it personally.
This is just another version of ILYBNILWY. It's part of the same script. Right now she's in a place that doesn't allow her to remember the happy times. Try not to take it personally.
^^^^This!
Nail, she knows how to love. She wouldn't have stayed married to you for 8 years if she didn't love you. But she has convinced herself for now that she doesn't love you and never did love you. Don't be surprised if you get the "we never should have gotten married" tagline too. All script. "Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared."
Thanks guys, I wrote her a text today that if S made her happy, I support her etc. as you suggested Stander. I just got off the phone with her and she sounded like it softened her a bit. My greatest fear is that she actually leaves. My greatest hope is that she reacts like you said, because the cage door is open, she feels free and reconsiders leaving. I truly love her and this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Heartbreaker!
"the positive of divorce."
Did you ask her what the "positive" was?
I think she means her and I being happy in front of the kids
My W feels the same way. She is saying that D's are fine with this and have moved on. She has convinced herself that this is best for all of us.
Yes, this is the Modern version of a family. My w believes it shouldn't be so "black & white". She has a friend that comes from a divorced family and her dad just moved a few blocks away from their home. It was an amicable divorce and they had family dinners together and the kids still had both their parents around everyday, the only difference is the parents had a platonic co-parenting type of relationship. It's not what I want, but I think it's what my wife wants because she doesn't love me anymore, but loves the kids. It's a best of both worlds scenario. Not what I want, but I can only control me.
nailinthecoffin,
A lot of what you are going through so many of us here are too!
My H has a pie-in-the-sky / cake-eating view of our family as remaining in-tact--holidays together, SUnday family dinner night, together at kids' events,etc. (One of my brothers is D and he and his X are very amicable--he sees this as his view of where we would be too). I don't.
All of us here want to feel love and "in love" again..but w our S, not someone new (at least for now).
My H too has voiced his opinion that the kids will be fine, just to make him feel justified and okay with leaving them/us. It is just their way of trying to find a way to leave w/o feeling so guilty.
I pray for all of us in this M-saving boat!
Hi..I am new here, but wanted to add that my H is ALSO saying that everything will be just fine. That this happens all the time and that people get through it just fine. He has even gone and told my D's (14 and 11) that they will be fine and they will get used to it. He has also said that we will have 2 happy homes for them and it will be better as soon as he gets his own place. (H is currently at parents house).
I do think this must be the way to make themselves feel better...I agree with turtle...it helps with his guilt. Especially when he drops them off after being with them and they cry....its easy to tell them they will get used to it and drive away. Im left to pick up the pieces of their broken hearts.
I am also anticipating the holidays. H has told the kids he will be spending Christmas morning here with them and he will not miss any of that. Well, sorry buddy, but you will not be here with us. I know that may be sad for the kids (and me too) but honestly, I am not allowing that. If he wants to be gone, then be gone. You cannot come here for the fun stuff. I know it sounds horrible of me, but we have to get used to it and him being around for the holidays like nothing is wrong just isnt going to work. I dont feel like Im hurting my kids, I just feel like Im making a new normal.
I also have a Bro who has his X come to his house with his new wife on Christmas morn and they all spend it together. He was never married to x, but its still a little weird to me. I give my sister in law credit that she can handle that, although they have always done this for birthdays too...some can.
Seems like there are going to be a lot of us in this dilema for the holidays...we will have to use each other for support!
Nail, I too have the its better for the kids this way rather than live with parents in a loveless M. W too has the view that we will still do family things together etc etc etc. Rubbish!!! How can splitting a family up benefit the kids in any way whatsoever.
It is guilt and part of the fantasy. They have to convince themselves that kids will be fine, they are thinking of themselves only. I too have had the 'look at xx, they are D but still do things together, he even gives her a hug when they meet up' etc.
But if I look at my W situation with her ex it had a devastating impact on my stepson. When I met W he had little confidence, was extremely clingy to W, did not like spending time with his biological dad, and cried an awful lot at the slightest thing. So I have had first hand experience with myself and stepson of how damaging this can be. Thankfully things settled after me n W got M and stepson got the stability he craved.
But of course he is now going thru it for a 2nd time, however, he is 19 now and lives away at college. One of the talks I had with stepson was the most difficult I ever had in that he has been caught up in a D and now a S. You wld think that alone wld make W reconsider, but she is fogged out of her mind and only sees what she wants.
My youngest S also has special needs and its difficult for 2 of us to manage him at times. Yet she still insists that it will be in his best interests as opposed to working on the M.
Your W will be extremely selfish and say anything to relieve the guilt (I am sure WAS must feel it)and get what she wants. But remember this is not ur old W as u knew her. I think it was sandi2 that posted to me that the biggest mistake an LBS makes is they still think of their old W who wld not do such a thing. That person is gone.
Anyway good luck
Well my H dropped the divorce word tonight. I am in so much uncertainty and my stomach is in knots. He is very unhappy and doesn't want to try. 26 years of marriage, no career, no degree. Now what.
We both gave made many mistakes, but no affairs. Said things in the heat of the moment. And now dealing with all those consequences. OMG the pain.
Thanks guys, I wrote her a text today that if S made her happy, I support her etc. as you suggested Stander. I just got off the phone with her and she sounded like it softened her a bit. My greatest fear is that she actually leaves. My greatest hope is that she reacts like you said, because the cage door is open, she feels free and reconsiders leaving. I truly love her and this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Heartbreaker!
I can relate, it was the hardest thing I ever did too. I'm convinced she would have left regardless, but at least I took the pressure off in having that talk with her. And don't be afraid of S, once my W left it made it much easier for me to detach, all the D talk ceased, all pressure fell away from W and we've been getting along better than in a long, long time. Hopefully she won't leave, but if she does then that is certainly not the end of things.
Had therapy last night, calmed things down a little, but this morning had a bad fight again about R. She said she just has no feelings for me anymore and just wants a divorce. Said I'm fighting a "space of nothing" between her and me. She called me a duchebag for not being the one to leave the house, and said she doesn't want to be married to me or start over w me. She said it would be impossible based on our past. So , I'm going to tell her that she can have the divorce and separation. I'll leave as soon as she signs a legal document stating that it is her that wants me to leave and I'am not abandoning the family. This [censored], but I really feel that she will not give up her way, and I'm not into beating a dead horse.
Do not leave the house without seeing a lawyer.
Thanks Stander, when your w left, did she take the kids? Thats the whole issue with us. My w says she wont leave without taking the kids, and she thinks Im an @$$ for making her leave when it would be easier for me to leave and not dislocate the kids.
Aren't they your kids also?
Yes, but my w has been the primary caretaker for them. I've been traveling a lot with my work for their entire lives.
Do not leave the house without seeing a lawyer.
Do not leave the house without seeing a lawyer.
Do not leave the house without seeing a lawyer.
Do not leave the house without seeing a lawyer.
Do not leave the house without seeing a lawyer.
I hope that gets my point across.
I got it Someguy. Will see a lawyer 1st!
Thanks Stander, when your w left, did she take the kids? Thats the whole issue with us. My w says she wont leave without taking the kids, and she thinks Im an @$$ for making her leave when it would be easier for me to leave and not dislocate the kids.
No, we agreed to 50-50 custody beforehand. There's no formal separation process in my state, so it's basically whatever the two spouses agree to. W and I sat down before she left and we hammered out the details for an hour or so. On my weeks W comes to my house and gets the kids ready so that I can continue going to work early (I'm gone before she gets there). On W's weeks S9 rides the bus to my house and I pick up D15 from drill practice. Then W comes to my house to pick the kids up. This works well for both of us because I always leave early and get home early and W always leaves late and gets home late. So we both get to see them nearly every day which really seems to have helped us all adapt to the new sitch.
Had therapy last night, calmed things down a little, but this morning had a bad fight again about R. She said she just has no feelings for me anymore and just wants a divorce.
Hopefully you've read enough on the forums by now to recognize that this is pure script and not worthy of a confrontation. You should just nod, tell her you understand why she feels that way and will support her as you can.
She called me a duchebag for not being the one to leave the house, and said she doesn't want to be married to me or start over w me.
My W didn't call me names, but she did ask why she had to leave and not me. I told her firmly that I wanted to stay in the M and I wanted her to stay there in the house with me. I reminded her that she was the one that wanted to end the M and break up the family, not me. So if she was so convinced that this is really what she wanted, then I would support her decision but SHE was the one that would have to leave. It was a very calm conversation and she never brought the topic up again.
I'll leave as soon as she signs a legal document stating that it is her that wants me to leave and I'am not abandoning the family.
OK, well we're all on record here telling you NOT to leave. Please explain why you think it's in anyone's best interest (other than W) for you to leave? Don't say it's for the kids, they will see YOU as the one breaking up the family because YOU left. You have to understand a kid's perspective, they are not going to understand anything about the S other than someone left, and that particular "someone" is going to appear to them as abandoning them. If your W leaves, even if she takes the kids they are going to feel displaced and will long to be home. They will see you as standing your ground and her as the one that broke things up WHICH SHE IS. If you're doing this just because your W called you names then ask yourself how that makes you look in her eyes when you're willing to capitulate every time she throws a bad word at you. Leaving is a total lose-lose proposition for you.
Let me quickly add, my mom took my brother and me and ran away from our home for a while. We were very young, maybe 6 and 8? We were quite confused and just kept asking when we could go home to daddy. We wanted to go HOME. We did NOT blame my dad for what happened, we blamed my mom.
Fast forward to me being a young teen and mom becomes a WAW. Mom claims (after the fact) that she had to leave due to physical and emotional abuse. Who did my brother and I blame? The one that left. We chose to stay with dad. My R with my mom has never recovered, to this day we talk maybe 4 times a year. My dad over the years has even admitted to the abuse, but all the hurt and pain I felt was towards the spouse that I perceived as abandoning us without putting forth an ounce of effort towards the M and family.
FWIW, my mom did try to return to reconcile, but my dad was done with her at that point.
Stander, you make a strong point. I think was feeling weak in the moment. I Really appreciate the support! I'am not feeling strong today at all. Our therapist told me to just leave w alone, not to lean in at all, give space and only talk about R in therapy. That's my plan.
My W didn't call me names, but she did ask why she had to leave and not me. I told her firmly that I wanted to stay in the M and I wanted her to stay there in the house with me. I reminded her that she was the one that wanted to end the M and break up the family, not me. So if she was so convinced that this is really what she wanted, then I would support her decision but SHE was the one that would have to leave. It was a very calm conversation and she never brought the topic up again.
Yes.
OK, well we're all on record here telling you NOT to leave. Please explain why you think it's in anyone's best interest (other than W) for you to leave? Don't say it's for the kids, they will see YOU as the one breaking up the family because YOU left. You have to understand a kid's perspective, they are not going to understand anything about the S other than someone left, and that particular "someone" is going to appear to them as abandoning them. If your W leaves, even if she takes the kids they are going to feel displaced and will long to be home. They will see you as standing your ground and her as the one that broke things up WHICH SHE IS. If you're doing this just because your W called you names then ask yourself how that makes you look in her eyes when you're willing to capitulate every time she throws a bad word at you. Leaving is a total lose-lose proposition for you.
YES!!
She's going to try to push you as far as you can. Do not give in to it!
Listen, back in July my H wrote me an email saying "Our marriage is over, period. Let me know when you can accept that."
Now things are 100% better because I stood my ground and just LOVED him. We still have a very long way to go, but at least he's not throwing the D word around.
Do NOT talk about your R, do NOT talk about your past. Focus on the "new you" and what changes you are going to make starting today. Someone on here said "be the change you want to see." If you can do that, you'll have a shot. But living in the past is not productive. Treat your M like it's a brand new relationship, with a brand new you.
Thanks Regretful,I really appreciate the support from you and everyone else, especially, Stander & Bond, Hey, that sounds like a good name for a company. Anyways, I have alot of work for the next few days and a storm is about to hit the NE, so hopefully I'll be ok until our next therapy session
Be well folks.
Stander, you make a strong point. I think was feeling weak in the moment. I Really appreciate the support! I'am not feeling strong today at all. Our therapist told me to just leave w alone, not to lean in at all, give space and only talk about R in therapy. That's my plan.
You're quite welcome! I agree with your therapist and RegretfulLA, table all R talks. It's one of the DB tips too:
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
You might consider giving MC a rest too. IC is fine, but it doesn't sound like the MC is going anywhere. Once we quit going to MC I totally dropped all R talk and things settled down a lot after that.
Another sleepless night! It's SOOOOO HARD to DB while you live together. I feel like I've failed for the past two months. Nothing's changed, in fact, I feel like she's dug in harder. She tells me that if I would have reacted differently when she first layed this on me(two months ago)by saying "ok honey, I hear you and I will give you your space and move out) , she would have had a change of heart. Now, because I did the opposite,(not move out and fight), she's less interested in reconciliation. I'am getting tired of her coldness, lack of love for me. I feel so bad. The nights are definitely the hardest for me. Today she told me that she thinks I'm sticking around because I'am hollow inside, I'am nothing without defining myself as the husband and father in this family. That I'm afraid of being single, afraid of admitting my failure to my family/friends, etc.etc. It really hurt what she said. And it made me feel angry. I told her and she said that she can't tell me the truth anymore because I can't handle it.
I know I'm not supposed to talk about the R with her, but we've all been home because of the storm, and we've had way too much time together.
She tells me that if I would have reacted differently when she first layed this on me(two months ago)by saying "ok honey, I hear you and I will give you your space and move out) , she would have had a change of heart. Now, because I did the opposite,(not move out and fight), she's less interested in reconciliation.
Again, if she wants out so bad then she needs to leave. She's just trying to guilt trip you into saying "you're right, I'll leave ASAP". How does she know she would have had a change of heart had you moved out? She doesn't.
I'am getting tired of her coldness, lack of love for me.
Believe me, I understand because I was there too. It got a lot easier after W moved out though.
Today she told me that she thinks I'm sticking around because I'am hollow inside, I'am nothing without defining myself as the husband and father in this family.
Based on your posts it sounds like there's a ring of truth to this. I can relate, because that's how I felt for months after BD. Hollow inside, like my very identity was stripped away. But if you really give DB'ing your full efforts, you get back in touch with YOU. You've let yourself be defined by your M and your parenting for so long that you don't remember who YOU are. It was the same with me. But I have gotten back in touch with ME, I remember the ME that existed before marriage, that was happy and content even with no wife and no kids. That me was still in there even though he'd been suppressed for decades, he just needed some coaxing to come back out again. But he's back, and I feel stronger, better and more confident than I have in years. You need to find that in yourself too. Because once you do, if your W tells you you're hollow inside, afraid of being single, afraid of talking to your family, etc. you'll have to honestly suppress a laugh. You'll get to the point where you'll want to respond with something like "W, that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm happy and content with who I am and I have come to realize I will be just fine with or without you." And you'll honestly mean it too! You've got to get to that point.
And it made me feel angry.
If my W said these things to me a few months ago I too would have been angry. But now, I'd probably look at her like she had lost her mind. I'd wonder how she could be so far off base. But here's the thing, I seriously doubt she'd say these things to me, because SHE knows they're not true now too.
I know I'm not supposed to talk about the R with her, but we've all been home because of the storm, and we've had way too much time together.
Talking about R = pressure. Applying pressure while cooped up in a house during a storm = bad. You're really making her feel caged in when you do that. Your goal is to never, ever bring up R talks. If you were able to be crammed in the house with her during a storm and not talk about the R at all, that would demonstrate to her that you're taking pressure off. THAT is what she needs right now.
Great advice from AnotherStander!
I'am so embarrassed to post this, but i fell off the wagon AGAIN!!! I need help detaching and i need help to stop snooping. I always get myself in trouble with both of these behavior patterns.
Once again, I found a note my wife wrote after talking to her friends. She wrote that she needs to stay strong, stick to her boundaries,see a lawyer for her rights, not back down, stay in therapy, she feels guilty like she's destroying me, she wants it all to be copacetic, it's about her not feeling guilty, guilt is making it worse, she needs to not allow me to make her feel guilty, she needs to be clear and not allow fear and confusion to fog the divorce.
The friend told her I'm trying to change her mind and punish her. She told my w I'm nuts and in shock and ungrounded, hurt, scared, angry, clinging, grieving, dramatic, manic depressive, should be on meds
She told w she will meet another man soon!
This morning I told her all this stuff without leading onto the fact that I read her notes, and she freaked out!
I wish I hadn't done that, but I feel like after more than two months, nothing has changed and she keeps getting support from these bitter divorced friends.
I know I messed up again. And I'm afraid that I keep messing up and she doesn't have any faith in me whatsoever anymore, but at the same time I feel like she's just stubbornly manipulating me until she gets what she wants, a divorce.
I keep saying to her,myself and my friends that I will give her space, thats what she wants and needs, and I'am unable to control my emotions while living with her.
I can't keep my trap shut and I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole that just keeps getting deeper and deeper.
I need a DB coach with me 24/7!
Reread what AnotherStander wrote you.