Time for a new thread. The last few weeks have been pretty brutal. A potential OM, drinking, and too many "talks" to count.
W and I had our MC session today. The C seems like a good fit. She was very blunt and to the point. She interviewed W first, then me, then talked to both of us.
From what I gathered, W told C that she's done (no surprise there). Surprisingly, W also talked about her drinking and some of her childhood issues.
My talk with C was pretty tough. I told her the story of how W and I met, then we got right into where we are today an what the unresolved issues are that I think W and I have. They are: her refusal to forgive my past slip-ups, W treating me like S***, and me "expecting" things of W. Those are most of what we argue about these days.
Then C brought us both into the room and told us what she had gathered:
- My actions in the past really hurt W.
- W and I both feel like we are not being listened to by one another.
- W is DONE. I am scared, W is scared.
- W has no respect for me or our M. Told W that what she's been doing this entire time is BS, and that I don't deserve it.
- W can't say she's done, and yet stay in the same house as me. That is also BS.
- I am not much more than a paycheck to W...and for her to allow that to continue is extremely disrespectful.
- W and I are both good people.
- C did not beat W up on her drinking today, but she definitely is aware of the problem.
- W and I can successfully build a R that will benefit our kids. One that has and will teach them mutual respect and caring. But not when we are in the same house.
- C does not want to try to fix our marriage. She thinks it is pointless to try given W's position.
- C would like to help us achieve the separation we need and help us talk through the logistics of it. She also wants to help us with our unresolved issues. She also said we're welcome to go get a 2nd opinion on this. I don't think I need one, because she didn't say a single thing that I haven't been told dozens of times on here.
- C left the door open for working on the M, but W would have to choose to do so. But, she said its either time to "try to fish this turd out or flush it down". Like I said, she was blunt.
W and I talked briefly afterwards. We both appreciated the C's bluntness, and I think we both knew she was right on almost all counts. W then asked for some time to process things before we discuss our next steps. She is in Ohio for the next 5 days, so that should give her plenty of time to process.
I feel ok about the session. I am still very sad about my M being done and it was hard to hear the C come to that conclusion so quickly. But, I also have a small sense of relief, as I think we took the first real step toward resolving this sitch today...for better or worse.
25, to answer from the prev. thread, EE is next week.
I am interested in EE too. Let me know how it goes for you. 25, is it like EST or Landmark Forum"
Navy
I really wish it had been you that delivered a lot of those statements to your W. Thats ok though they've been said and it's almost just as good if you take ownership of those statements.
Based on what she knows you might consider IC with her to find out why you stuck out this long with someone who treated you like that. From previous comments I think you have an inclination, but I think she may help you out.
The following describes me; but if it fits go with it. I was terrified of losing W, I didn't think I could do any better. I thought that was a good as it got for me. So I always bent over backwards for her, if she was mad I did all I could to apologize.
Now i can't explain it, but constantly over apologizing, keeps the offended party from moving on. It's hard to explain. You cant be totally callous, but overly apologizing just keeps reopening the wound, and the other person can't move on. They get stuck in victim mode.
I like you have made some pretty bad mistakes. My W has had a hard time letting them go. Unfortunately when that happens it slowly poisons your marriage. The key of course is for them to allow themselves to forgive you.
Easier said than done, when someone sees themselves as the grieved party for so long it eventually becomes unforgivable, and no amount of apologizing will do. I think this is where you are.
In order to move forward your W must decide she HAS to forgive you. Yet she's so far gone that IMHO the only way she ever will is if she realizes that by being unforgiving she stands to lose more than to gain.
Here is the status quo:
She can't forgive you, so you become nicer in order to please her. She gains a nice Navy and can keep blaming you for her own unhappiness.
Here is what I think you should be:
She can't learn to forgive, so you stop putting up with her, and she loses her marriage, the father of her children, the attention of a loving husband, and stability.
She may realize she doesn't want to throw it all away over a grudge, she may not.
Either way it sounds like your counselor has a good plan, she's in essence holding your W accountable.
Don't be surprised if your W changes her mind.
"Now i can't explain it, but constantly over apologizing, keeps the offended party from moving on. It's hard to explain. You cant be totally callous, but overly apologizing just keeps reopening the wound, and the other person can't move on. They get stuck in victim mode."
GB, OMG! THIS is a major dynamic in my r with my H. i need to stop this, too. thank you so much for pointing this out.
navy, i guess we just need to take the attitude that the past is the past and we are done apologizing for it and for every little crappy thing from now on. relationships have issues and differences to settle. i will no longer be responsible for my H's happiness and be the blame for his unhappiness.
thanks, GB.
Navy, When I read your post I applauded your C and what she surmised from her interviews. I believe your W needed to hear that, I believe you needed to hear that. Some people respond better to hearing frank critiques from neutral third parties. IMO opinion that is one of the benefits of this forum.
Perhaps she will take what has been said, look deep within, and begin to affect change, perhaps not. Either way it is not your kit to carry. It is her journey to take carrying her own deuce gear.
Go and do the work at EE. Be present and focus at the workshop. Let this noise fall away into the background as much as possible. It isn’t going away. It’ll be waiting to be dealt with when you get back and can afford to focus upon it.
From my perspective GB’s point about overly apologizing is spot on.
I'm sorry to hear that things have not gotten any better for you Navy. You have fought valiantly for your M. You should be proud of your efforts, and proud of what you have learned throughout this process.
Denver
GB, thanks for the post. I agree...C directly told W that her behavior is crap and it has to stop. She is free to leave, but she can't keep treating me like crap. While it wouldn't surprise me if W changes her mind, I think the chance is still pretty low.
JS, as hard as it was to hear, I was also happy with the C's read on things. I think she hit the nail right on the head. I can't wait for EE...if it's even 1/10th as good as it sounds it should be a great experience.
Denver. Denver. Denver. Thanks for the support. I couldn't be happier for you right now. Soooo glad to hear things are headed in the right direction for you. I think it's getting close to Casa Bonita time.
Things are ok here. My parents are in town while W is in Ohio. We have been having a good time. W hasnt tried to contact us once in the past 3 days...not even to talk to our kids. Pretty lame if you ask me....can't say I'm surprised though.
What a horrible mother.
Starsky
Starsky, I don't know if I'd go that far...but my mom has made a few comments about how it looks like W must do absolutely nothing around the house all day.
Debating whether or not I or the kids should call W. Funny thing is they haven't even asked to talk to her.
Laziness is one thing. Not calling your own, small children for several days when you're out of town is quite another.
OK, I'll qualify it: Right now, what a horrible mother she is being.
Starsky
Yeah, I can live with that statement. Still haven't heard from her. I think I'll just stay "dark".
She's most likely trying to escape as much as she can while she is away. Don't be surprised if it hits her like a ton of bricks when she gets back, and resorts to old methods of intimidation to get you to comply and let her have her way.
Remember for now an amicable separation is your goal. Depending on how much she changes in the next few months then maybe you can start looking at a reconciliation.
I also recommend you make a list of what you want in your marriage. She may come back trying to negotiate some sort of crazy deal where she gives you very little in exchange for a lot of sacrifices on your part.
Your mindset from now on should be: "I want the following, and will not settle, even for you W"
Hi navy- what you wrote about W not calling kids resonates deeply with me. My H can go weeks without calling and I don't understand it at all. I used to facilitate but stopped doing that unless they ask, which is not often. I get conflicted on how to handle it as well.
She's most likely trying to escape as much as she can while she is away. Don't be surprised if it hits her like a ton of bricks when she gets back, and resorts to old methods of intimidation to get you to comply and let her have her way.
Remember for now an amicable separation is your goal. Depending on how much she changes in the next few months then maybe you can start looking at a reconciliation.
I also recommend you make a list of what you want in your marriage. She may come back trying to negotiate some sort of crazy deal where she gives you very little in exchange for a lot of sacrifices on your part.
Your mindset from now on should be: "I want the following, and will not settle, even for you W"
GREAT advice . . . all of it. ^^^^
Starsky
W should be home any minute here...
Pretty sad when a man is worried about what its going to be like when his W comes home.
Pretty sad when a man is worried about what its going to be like when his W comes home.
I remember this feeling well. The fear isn't created overnight.. and unfortunately won't go away overnight.
BUT this feeling is under your control... and you can CHOOSE to fight it if you want to.
I don't know if it's too late, but be nice, but not accomodating. If she needs help with luggage help her out, if she starts implying or demanding you need to wait on her because she is tired (ie too tired from partying) just tell her something like that's too bad, and walk away. If she tries to start a fight because you walk away tell her it's because you are learning to detach from here, and that includes "over helping her"
I am interested in EE too. Let me know how it goes for you. 25, is it like EST or Landmark Forum"
Unbidden, hey!. I attended EE long ago and then went back as a "Team" member several times as other friends/family also attended. We seem to have a lot of happy campers so I have no hesitation recommending it AND it has a lot of themes in it that are consistent with DBing.
I happened to attend Landmark and EST and
EE is NOT like either of them. but I am not putting those other programs down. Landmark,
for me, was too commercially driven (kept asking me to come back and spend more money to 'learn the other thing') and I felt too squeezed into recruiting as well. But I know some people who got a lot out of it.
EST is different in too many ways to count, but I know some who got value out of that as well. I've attended these and Imago and all I can say is,
Please check out Essential Experience's website for their info b/c they do a better job at explaining it. I found it to be more profound and deeper than the others...and yes it changed my life.
The real value in it lies in the changes others see in your life.
The changes my h saw in me when I got off the plane and in the next few months, convinced HIM to go and
he's NOT the type to go these things.
He felt that it was the "best gift anyone had ever gotten [him]."
Anyhow here's the deal-don't fear a dramatic UPHEAVAL b/c that's not always what is needed.
We can change our lives incrementally, and then find that years later, we are in a vastly different place than if we had not made those small consistent changes.
I think of it Like an angle changing only a few degrees, but if you draw the line out, it gets you to a much different place a decade later...(Wish I could draw that out).
So, Unbidden, check it out. Autumn Leaves attended it and got a lot out of it.
My summary would be to say that the goal of a personal growth workshop
for ME,
was to gain clarity and peace, and to learn how to live a life of intention.
EE helped me do that. And It did a lot of good for my h, as a man and as a partner. We continue to suggest it for friends/family (NO we do not get a kickback)
and want our son to attend b/c he's considering marriage. We want him to have the tools we were not born with, and had not learned til it was ALMOST too late.
Good luck all, and Navy-you are in my prayers!!!
(((( ))))
I checked out their website and will try to go. After next weekend, the next one doesn't appear to be until next February or so. I hope I can survive that long
I trust your recs, I'm also a lawyer and former JAG. Really appreciate your advice.
Navy I hope your evening went okay.
Actually, it did go ok. Maybe even a little better than that.
W got home around 3:30 pm. The kids were, of course, happy to see her. I kind of laid low for the first hour or so.
Then I told her about all the things we did while she was gone...and it was strange. She was actually actively listening to me, making eye contact, and cared about what I was telling her...she even asked amplifying questions about things to carry on the conversation.
I don't think she's done that in years.
Then the kids wanted to go swimming, so we took them to the pool and ordered pizza there. I swam with the kids and W sat and watched. She looked like she was having a "heavy" text conversation with someone. I think it was Ohio BFF...no idea what it was about. I had a good time with the kids.
Then we got home and I put the kids to bed, and she went out on the deck. I walked out to ask her something and she said "sorry I wasn't there to help put the kids to bed, I was out here collecting my thoughts".
Obviously she wanted to tell me something, so I bit and said "well, what did you collect?"
Then she said she had spent most of the time away thinking about who she has become and the way she treats me and things she has said to me. She said she has said some nasty things to me when we have gotten into arguments, and that I am not a bad person and I didn't deserve that. Then she said she didn't know why she had treated me like that...she speculated that it was maybe her overcompensating for the past, when she felt that I used to "fight unfairly". She started to tear up. Then she told me she regrets saying those things to me, and that she is sorry.
I think my jaw dropped to the floor, but I managed to respond with "thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me". She said "We have really been through a lot together". I agreed.
Then we sat there for awhile and looked at each other...
I think she is just starting to process some things, so I didn't push the R talk any further.
We spent the next couple hours hanging out and talking about her trip and things going on with Ohio BFF and other friends. Same thing as earlier...lots of eye contact and her showing interest in what I was saying.
I went to bed around 11. I think she stayed up until about 1.
I'm not reading into this too much. But it was genuine, I have no doubt.
I think it was the first time that W looked herself in the mirror. No idea what this could lead to, if anything. I'm going to stick to the plan.
Interesting...
Then she said she had spent most of the time away thinking about who she has become and the way she treats me and things she has said to me. She said she has said some nasty things to me when we have gotten into arguments, and that I am not a bad person and I didn't deserve that. Then she said she didn't know why she had treated me like that...she speculated that it was maybe her overcompensating for the past, when she felt that I used to "fight unfairly". She started to tear up. Then she told me she regrets saying those things to me, and that she is sorry.
I think my jaw dropped to the floor, but I managed to respond with "thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me". She said "We have really been through a lot together". I agreed.
Well done, Navy. Too many people say things like "That's OK," which only excuses the CB. You handled it perfectly.
Starsky
Neither time, nor accepting your feelings, nor being grateful for having her (or him) in your life or having such a relationship, nor any empty, irrelevant suggestion people make will make you "feel" any better. Because these soothing suggestions are as palliative as Tylenol is to a stab-wound. Where whatever we try misses the point starts, among many other things (most of which are a mystery to me) by some misconceptions.
First we have understand that love is ownership, and that you have lost the rights to your property. Even though people elevate it (love) to sublime heights, it (love) just is a violent and possessive obsession over another person. The intensity of which is proven post split up.
Second, in my experience, it seems to me that such relationships (the sounds of which yours belongs to), are pretty hectic and painful all along. While we like to delude ourselves, "post-mortem" in a way, if you think about it, your life was hell during the relationship. If it wasn't constant fights, there was the involuntary obsessive demand for attention that you couldn't help but dedicate to that person. In most cases this attention varies from paralyzing (jealousy, continuous check up, sms - where are you, what are you doing etc) to a continuous nagging and a needing of being in the other's presence to the point that solitude is not the same anymore. Can you really tell me that you were "pain-free" during that time?
Also, we seem to focus too much on how good we *Feel* as opposed to the contents of life. This is more prevalent to very strong or very weak types. The mediocre ones are selfish enough and have figured this out long ago, genetically in a sense. They desire and consequently feel less in life (what ghosts!). To them a break-up is a bit too-spicy bite in life, which they get over fairly easily and move on to their next bland, socially comfortable position. I am referring to the strong types here (and in this entire post). You have to come to terms and realize that you never *feel* exactly good about your possession. The moments of good feelings are ephemeral and they usually occur during the transitory point of a new conquest. But new thirst and pain soon arises as you strive for more. The point is that you have to understand that *feeling* is a smoke mirror and the underlying mechanism is something else.
A cure I can imagine (and worked for me) is to find something new to obsesses about. Try setting a challenging goal for yourself, start a difficult project, start working out and obsess about yourself, learn something new and challenging. Difficult goals require the same mindset that a strong obsessive types naturally have. This way, your drive does not end up destroying you, but works to your benefit. And it should be so for strong-willed people. Looking back you will laugh at yourself now. But at least this way there will be substantial fulfillment and complete self-dependency. And there is no-one better to love than onself.
As far as pain... it will only make you stronger, if you can only learn how to digest it properly.
2Step
Then we got home and I put the kids to bed, and she went out on the deck. I walked out to ask her something and she said "sorry I wasn't there to help put the kids to bed, I was out here collecting my thoughts".
Obviously she wanted to tell me something, so I bit and said "well, what did you collect?"
Then she said she had spent most of the time away thinking about who she has become and the way she treats me and things she has said to me. She said she has said some nasty things to me when we have gotten into arguments, and that I am not a bad person and I didn't deserve that. Then she said she didn't know why she had treated me like that...she speculated that it was maybe her overcompensating for the past, when she felt that I used to "fight unfairly". She started to tear up. Then she told me she regrets saying those things to me, and that she is sorry.
I think my jaw dropped to the floor, but I managed to respond with "thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me". She said "We have really been through a lot together". I agreed.
Then we sat there for awhile and looked at each other...
I think she is just starting to process some things, so I didn't push the R talk any further.
We spent the next couple hours hanging out and talking about her trip and things going on with Ohio BFF and other friends. Same thing as earlier...lots of eye contact and her showing interest in what I was saying.
I went to bed around 11. I think she stayed up until about 1.
I'm not reading into this too much. But it was genuine, I have no doubt.
I think it was the first time that W looked herself in the mirror. No idea what this could lead to, if anything. I'm going to stick to the plan.
Interesting...
That IS interesting Navy. I was just getting ready to write a post to you telling you that I did not believe that you could do this, fix your M, without an actual physical S. But, maybe you still have a chance.
IMO, you handled this perfectly. You were 'just' her friend. And THAT is what you need to do right now, IMO.
If she is going to turn, it isn't going to be because of anything that you proactively do or say. It is going to be because she does look in the mirror and figures her own head out.
I was going to say that the only way that that was going to happen is with a physical S and probably a lengthy period of no contact with you. That she has to learn to miss you and that being in the same home does not allow for that.
But maybe... maybe she started to figure it out while in Ohio.
Continue to be her friend. And continue with the plan. If she has an epiphany, she will let you know.
I'm still pulling for you Navy! You have fought SO hard. You have so much to be proud of. Really.
Denver
P.S. I also noticed that there was a 2Step sighting! Nice to see that the Shakespeare of our time has not disappeared completely!
Navy
I do see the physical separation as effective like Denver says. In my case I didnt have that and it has made things harder. Here has been my approach though.
Be the husband you want to be, be the husband you owe yourself to be.
This means a husband who is respected, loves; but also gives respect and gives love.
The behavior your W has been showing is wonderful, but remember this is the baseline not the holy grail. You should get this at a minimum. Don't be afraid to demand it.
Then balance it out with the love and support she and your family needs.
Nasty behavior will get her a divorce, good behavior will get her a loving husband.
Ok enough negativity
You're in a good position, time to solidify your gains and move forward.
Well, after we got the kids in bed last night, W asked me what I thought of our MC appt. last week.
Apparently she didn't just want to apologize to me last night...she wanted to talk through everything and where we're going from here. She thought I changed the subject last night after she apologized and assumed that I didn't want to talk last night. I told her I thought that was all she was ready to talk about, and that I wasn't trying to redirect the conversation at all.
I told her my thoughts on the appointment. I said I think that C was right on just about everything. W said she pretty much agreed with everything that C said too. She said it is unfair to me that she's been hanging on. And that she's been hanging on because she's scared that she can't make it on her own. And she's scared that I will "get nasty" in the D process once I have truly accepted we are done. I told her my priorities would be #1 - The kids, #2 - Us.
Then W said she wants me to be happy...and she still wants us to be friends and be able to talk to each other and be there for each other. But that she just doesn't want the M anymore. She told me that what happened in the past is in the past, but that she can't get over it, and that her feelings for me have not changed at all since she was first "done" in her mind, despite all the changes I have made.
She kept talking about how she has been controlled all her life, and that she never got to experience freedom like I have, and that she's been through so many horrible experiences, and that she feels like she deserves more.
I didn't know what else to say at this point, so I got quiet. W kept trying to pry me to talk and to cheer me up.
Eventually I gathered my thoughts and tried to summarize what she told me. Here's what I said: "W, I know that you are done. You want us to separate and divorce. That is not what I want, but I respect the fact that you are done and respect what you want, so I will cooperate and try to work toward a solution that works best for all of us".
She said that is what she was saying.
So I asked if she wanted to go back to the MC to try to figure out this stuff.
For some reason, at that point, she thought I was talking about discussing her new guy-friend with our C. I have no idea why she thought that. So we got side-tracked on that for awhile. She told me that it really hurts her that I would even consider that she'd been cheating on me. I tried explaining to her how I saw him as a threat to our limbo situation, and that is what really bothered me...but I don't think she heard me. I told her I don't know why this even came up, and we got back to the real issues.
I think she was trying to talk me into being "ok" with us getting D'd. I am not ok with that, and I don't think I should have to be. She kept saying she doesn't want to hurt anyone. It's like she just wants me to sweep the hurt aside and tell her that I'm good with this and it's for the best.
At this point, we got off topic again and started talking about past crap. Once again, I redirected us by summarizing the main points of what we were discussing: "She wants D, I don't, but I will not stop it, and that we were going to go back to MC to get help figuring things out".
At that point (about 1 AM) I asked W if there was anything we hadn't discussed from the appt. that she wanted to talk about. She said there wasn't. So I thanked her for talking and listening and I got up and went to bed.
She didn't come to bed until sometime around 2:30 or 3. Probably doing some more "processing".
Denver and GB: I think your instinct on the physical S needing to happen is correct. And I think it is inevitable at this point. Or at least, that's the position I need to take.
W's "look in the mirror" was limited to her seeing the nasty things she has said to me. She doesn't want to do that anymore. But that was the extent of it.
So, we continue the march toward a S/D. I have IC today and EE this weekend. Hopefully that will help me process some things.
I received the same “I want a D, I know this will hurt you and tear family asunder, but I still want us to be friends.” speech. IMO it is script.
In my sitch remaining friends was a strategy. It meant giving her everything she initially asked for and then giving her everything she forgot to ask for. I retained an attorney from the onset and settled in. It got ugly, it still is.
I hope I am wrong. I hope you have an eleventh hour change in your sitch and she wakes the he11 up. If not then I hope yours truly is a painless cooperative process.
Prepare for it not to be sunshine and lollipops.
Keep the welfare of your children in the forefront and keep your honor intact. Stand for what is fair with those two items in the forefront.
Navy
The veering to the OM, and the bringing up of past grievances was a diversionary tactic. She brought it up to throw you off and regain the moral high ground. At the very least to remind herself that she doesn't want you.
As for her wanting you to be cheery about D. Your W wants to gut the family and walk away thinking she did everyone a favor. You are living your truth and that is good. This divorce is her choice, because she won't work on the marriage. Just be careful that you don't get restuck in the previous cycle of her not leaving, but not working on herself either.
Thanks for the posts everyone. Still just trying to be W's friend here.
EE starts tomorrow. I will try to post about it while I'm there, but I might not be able to...it is a busy weekend.
I hadn't told W why I was going to Philly this weekend, but she asked last night, so I showed her a little bit about EE...she seemed somewhat interested in it.
Had an ok night last night. W asked me how I was holding up, so I was honest with her - crappy. She's feeling about the same as me. We had a positive talk about some pretty deep feelings. Again, W brought up her past. I think she may be starting to draw the link between her past and our problems...but I could be wrong.
Our first appt. with the C to start working out how we're going to do the S is next Tuesday.
Hopefully by then I'll be a changed man.
Thanks for the posts everyone. Still just trying to be W's friend here.
EE starts tomorrow. I will try to post about it while I'm there, but I might not be able to...it is a busy weekend.
Navy, I'd bet A LOT of money that
You will NOT be able to post about EE during the weekend b/c you'll be BUSY and processing, and they'll probably ask you not to post until it's over.
Remember, there is a process and structure to it.
I'm happy for you.
Looking forward to what you have to say when the Essential Experience workshop is all said and done - but in a way, it's really when your life of clarity and exercising choice, truly begins.
My guess is you'll be VERY tired on Monday...If you can, take that day off- or at least expect a LATE morning, b/c it's truly exhausting.
Wish I'd told you that before...sorry!
I hadn't told W why I was going to Philly this weekend, but she asked last night, so I showed her a little bit about EE...
she seemed somewhat interested in it.
well, ^^^ that's "somewhat" nice. EE Is for YOU of course. Would she benefit by going? Oh yeah, sure...but it means a lot of mirror looking, And NO blaming AND a lot of digging deep...so...
OTOH, once she sees your changes, your inner radiance, she'll want it.
But will she do what it takes to get that? Who knows?
Guess what? NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY...she lives her life and YOU live YOURS....
Its just that now you are doing it more openly/overtly. And You will do what it takes to make YOUR LIFE HAPPY.
Had an ok night last night. W asked me how I was holding up, so I was honest with her - crappy. She's feeling about the same as me.
We had a positive talk about some pretty deep feelings. Again, W brought up her past. I think she may be starting to draw the link between her past and our problems...
but I could be wrong.
you keep mind reading and, let's admit it, HOPING for a breakthrough from her, and sort of seeing one when she makes the most blindingly obvious "insights" and takes 3 ounces of responsibility for how she feels....
Yet note that once she does that
"Again, w brought up her past"...she always reverts back to NOT having to own her life and somehow making it about you.
What I'm saying is that
if and when she's clearly feeling a certain way, a way that means good news for you,
you will know. No guessing will be needed.
Our first appt. with the C to start working out how we're going to do the S is next Tuesday.
Hopefully by then I'll be a changed man.
you will be. Do the work, don't withhold. I'm sending you all my support.
You'll be in good hands. They know what they are doing. Trust it. Trust you.
I just wanted to point out that her "suddenly" finding out you are going to a self help retreat probably through her for a loop.
This type of unexpected positive behavior is good for her to see. It shows her YOU are changing for the better. The fact you are going by yourself and didn't ask her to go shows her that you are not as desperate to be with her as she may think.
I haven't been myself, but when you get back I wouldn't talk about it unless she asks specific questions. Let your own "radiance" be the evidence.
If you talk about it may sound like you are trying to convince her and yourself it was worth it.
I don't know why she would, but there's also a chance she may try to test your positive outlook by throwing a lot of drama your way. From what you have stated she needs you as an escape goat to blame her problems. A happy Navy could be a Navy she can't blame anymore. Just be careful if she starts fights out of nowhere.
Either way you are making good progress, I know it just doesn't seem like it. Personally I still believe there is a chance your W will wake up out of it, unfortunately IMHO it just won't happen until it is at least nearly too late.
I just wanted to point out that her "suddenly" finding out you are going to a self help retreat probably through her for a loop.
This type of unexpected positive behavior is good for her to see. It shows her YOU are changing for the better. The fact you are going by yourself and didn't ask her to go shows her that you are not as desperate to be with her as she may think.
I haven't been myself, but when you get back I wouldn't talk about it unless she asks specific questions. Let your own "radiance" be the evidence.
If you talk about it may sound like you are trying to convince her and yourself it was worth it.
I don't know why she would, but there's also a chance she may try to test your positive outlook by throwing a lot of drama your way. From what you have stated she needs you as an escape goat to blame her problems. A happy Navy could be a Navy she can't blame anymore. Just be careful if she starts fights out of nowhere.
Either way you are making good progress, I know it just doesn't seem like it. Personally I still believe there is a chance your W will wake up out of it, unfortunately IMHO it just won't happen until it is at least nearly too late.
I agree. I still think that there's a chance here, but it will have to come when the two of you are on the ledge...
Well, I'm here. Getting some dinner before EE starts in a hour. See you all on the other side.
keep your eyes, ears and especially... your mind... open...
You'll have a fantastic experience and... who knows...
Congrats on taking this step for yourself. Wishing you the best!
To quote Mr Bond in a post long ago "Fair winds and following seas"
I'm back. Very tired, but had to come in to work this morning. I will try to post more later today or tomorrow.
Well, here I am. Back from EE.
It was an amazing experience - hard, painful, exhausting, but amazing.
I really got a lot out of it...and I did gain clarity on what I need to do. And it is the same thing you all have been telling me for a long time. And what I need to do is to continue toward a respectful separation with W.
I don't have to like it, or be ok with it, but it is what I have to do so I can be happy again and take care of myself.
I know that my M has been dead...for at least 3 years, probably longer. And the entire time, I have been attending it's funeral, crying for it, staring at it, and hoping it would pop back up to life. That's not going to happen. It's time to grab my shovel, and start the process of burying my M.
That starts tomorrow. Our first appt. with our C to discuss how we're going to separate is tomorrow morning. I am not looking forward to it. I will be strong, I will be brave. I will listen to W, and I will be respectful of her...I will be her friend, and I will love her unconditionally...but I am done trying to change her mind.
If we have any R talks, I will listen, I will validate, and I will comfort her.
So, tomorrow I will be on the road to separation. It [censored]...but it's reality.
Still getting lots of confusing signs from W. I called on the way home last night to talk to the kids, but I ended up talking to W for over a half hour. I even asked to talk to the kids, but she kept the conversation going. We haven't talked on the phone that long in ages.
When I got home last night (around 11), W and D6 were still awake (she wanted to wait for me). D6 attacked me as soon as I walked in the door. It was awesome.
I don't know how it started, but W and I ended up on the couch watching olympics. She had gotten into an discussion with a friend about gymnastics, and wanted to show me a video. So I moved over next to her and watched it, and then listened to her talk about gymnastics for about 20 minutes.
Then we went outside. I decided to have a celebratory cigar for completing EE. W and I kept talking about gymnastics and then moved on to other topics. Eventually she asked about EE, and I told her the same thing I wrote above. (hard, exhausting, painful, yet amazing) Then she asked about one of my experiences. I told her about it, and I think she was pretty shocked at what I did. She said she was really happy that I enjoyed it and really happy that I thought it was worthwhile.
Then she started talking about separating. I didn't really want to talk about it...so I just listened to her. She is scared...really scared. The two things she mentioned were finding a job and losing friends.
Then she mentioned how Hawaii BFF hasn't been calling her much anymore. But they talked the other day, and I think W told her we were planning to start figuring out separating. Hawaii BFF told W that she is both of our friends and that W or I could call her anytime and she would be there for us. W feels that Hawaii BFF is distancing herself from W...and then she started crying.
I didn't say anything...I just felt so much sympathy for her. Then I stood up and asked if I could give her a hug. She stood up and we hugged for a long time. I told her that everything was going to be ok.
We sat back down and talked a bit more, but by then it was about 1:45, and I got up to go to bed.
So, tomorrow will be hard. No doubt. And I'm not ok with losing my M. I probably won't be for a long time. And that is ok.
But...I'm moving.
Good job. It's hard definitely, but something that's been needing to be done for awhile. I would also suggest that you have a comprehensive list of what you expect in terms of a separation. Like who gets what. Time with the kids, etc. Do that first and foremost so that you can get what you want out of this.
Navy, I'm sure you understand your W is likely to panic during the process.
I know you understand you have a path to follow and your W has a path and right now, they are in different directions.
Your road will be tough. Her's... tough as well... I think, more so...
Support her as you can. She MUST travel her path.
The future remains...
un-knowable...
Navy
((( ))))
You went there seeking clarity, wanting the strength to follow where that clarity lead, and peace w/the choices you had. I think you found all that.
I hope you'll keep in touch w/the supportive folks you met there, whether by phone or @their "re-unions", its SO worth it.
I'm glad you were able to handle your wife's relative lack of interest (thought it was more than I expected from her) as well as you did.
I just recall getting home all those years ago, and wanting to share ALL of it w/my h (the parts I felt I could anyhow) and he was listening and seemed fascinated. To ME he seemed that way at least. Must have been 3 am before I fell asleep...
I'm glad you came HERE and got the excited response we feel for you and I know how proud of you we are for going.
It was a real stretch for you and you got out of your comfort zone and you DID IT.
Have another cigar my friend!! (For me??)
The election has caused the fall workshop to be rescheduled for the spring (I forgot they do that every 4 years) but I have some close friends and family members going in the spring.
SO It's always nice to know another person who would not "normally" attend something like this, but does anyhow--and does the HARD HARD work it takes to change one's life,
and gets it!!
Again, congratulations. I know that was not easy but it sure sounds like it was worth it for you.
YAYAYAYAY!!!
(((( ))))
lol... 25, you don't seem that excited for navy... maybe it's just me...
Just to top up what 25 said about keeping in touch with everyone, it's a really good thing. When I first attended a similar seminar back in '96ish, we didn't really have that available to us. I found that eventually people go their own ways, but that bond we make with our co-students goes on forever...
and...
IDK about EE, but the courses I've been on allow re-audits OR allow one to staff (for free, except travel, room and board, of course)... THAT is also an awesome experience... and you get to re-do some of the work which helps re-enforce...
lol... 25, you don't seem that excited for navy... maybe it's just me...
of course it's just you!!
Just to top up what 25 said about keeping in touch with everyone, it's a really good thing. When I first attended a similar seminar back in '96ish, we didn't really have that available to us. I found that eventually people go their own ways, but that bond we make with our co-students goes on forever...
and...
IDK about EE, but the courses I've been on allow re-audits OR allow one to staff (for free, except travel, room and board, of course)... THAT is also an awesome experience... and you get to re-do some of the work which helps re-enforce...
2 things--
first, I cannot overemphasize what KD's saying about follow up.
True, as you can attest, a long intense weekend like no other in your life CAN change the course of your life,
but unless you have people around you in your life who'll support you to keep you on your new path, to help you stay on track
(as you also begin to weed out those who don't support you and or who derail you from your new path)
then you may revert to the worn, known path that you want OFF of and the changes in course, will fade...
Today W/online support and the number of EE related support groups (all free) all I can say is echoing KDs' comments--
keep in touch w/those connections. They will always matter but like all r's they take some nourishment. You may have to reach out but hey, that's LIFE!
Second, as you probably know by now, EE does offer you the chance to return and revisit your issues or help others to go through their own process and there's no charge for it & free community housing is available too.
I can't speak for other programs or workshops but I've been to a few others (and I'll go to KDs if he'll go to mine!!!)
but the one variable that he & I have noted with some other workshops, and that bothers me is when a speaker I barely know, or a group, keeps asking for money just a bit too often. (Off the top of my head, I don't recall
ever hearing it discussed or asked for at EE, in my 2 decades of attending it...)
ANYHOW-
The folks you met over the weekend and connected with, CARE. We care.
In the rough times ahead - you'll need to remember that...the way past the pain is through it, but remember the beautiful things you learned and saw this weekend too.
Remember the glimpses you got of the good things in your future. It's Not all going to be dark; the hard days/nights will pass.
It's my sincere hope
that you KNOW this. And that you are NOT ALONE...
Stay in touch, with us and with them...
and take good loving care of yourself. It's your job!
I can't speak for other programs or workshops but I've been to a few others (and I'll go to KDs if he'll go to mine!!!)
lol... it's a deal...
I know that my M has been dead...for at least 3 years, probably longer. And the entire time, I have been attending it's funeral, crying for it, staring at it, and hoping it would pop back up to life. That's not going to happen. It's time to grab my shovel, and start the process of burying my M.
That starts tomorrow. Our first appt. with our C to discuss how we're going to separate is tomorrow morning. I am not looking forward to it. I will be strong, I will be brave. I will listen to W, and I will be respectful of her...I will be her friend, and I will love her unconditionally...but I am done trying to change her mind.
If we have any R talks, I will listen, I will validate, and I will comfort her.
Wow Navy. That is growth my friend. There is still a long way to go here Navy. I still think that a physical S can make a huge difference with your sitch. As long as you are not done that is...
I guess that we'll see
So many different levels of 'done'. ; )
So many different levels of 'done'. ; )
So very true.
Well, the C appointment was hard, but I'm doing ok.
We started talking logistics of a separation...C is really pushing to make it happen ASAP. I think her and my IC have talked and they are both working to protect me...so I understand why they are doing it.
At the end, C said that the appt. went better than she thought it would, and she thinks we do have a good chance of separating respectfully and amiciably.
A couple sticking points surfaced though. We briefly discussed custody, and I stated that I'm not good with just seeing the kids every other weekend. W didn't say what she wanted. C said that a 50/50 split is not good for the kids. So that's something to work out. C gave us a book to read about kids and D...it's the Sandcastles book. I've already read most of it and will be giving it to W tonight. It's very hard to read and see the drawings that kids make about D.
The other thing was me being in the Navy and potentially having to move in 2 years. I said that I am not comfortable with that and that I would rather get out of the Navy and move back to Colorado than be away from the kids. W wants to stay in the DC area because of the good job market here. She thinks that if she moves back to CO she'd end up living at her parents house and working for minimum wage. So that's something we're going to have to figure out as well.
C's homework for us was to put together a budget, for W to start her job search, and for us to start figuring out separate housing. So next week we're going to review those things and C also wants to start discussing some of our unresolved issues. Not for the purpose of saving our M, but so we can forgive and not have them hanging over us as we move forward.
Yesterday I started working on a spreadsheet that has our budget and a list of our options with pros and cons of each. The budget wasn't very pretty...if W can get a $15-20/hr job, we're going to be about $2000/mo short of what we need. I showed it to W last night and asked for her input. We'll see if she actually does anything with it.
W and I have been getting along ok. I think the appt. yesterday was tough for her though. I think she thought this process was going to be easy...all sunshine and lollipops. But now she's seeing that I'm not just going to roll over on the important issues. Hopefully she's willing to compromise.
It's funny you guys mention the definition of "done". W has told a few times over the past week or so that she doesn't ever see herself getting to a place where she would be in love with me again. Just trying to drive the point home that she's "done" I guess.
I'm sure I'll get there someday too.
Blah.
Tried talking to W last night about some of the details. It didn't go well...and we ended up going down the same old rabbit hole, going back and forth on our past.
Lots of her saying "you should have known better" and me saying "I don't see how I could have known, I never intended to hurt you". We're never going to see eye to eye on the past...I just need to accept that and stop those conversations before they start.
We did agree that our communication problems were the major reason we are where we are today. I asked her that we both really try to communicate throughout this S process...let's at least do it right this time.
W feels like I am not supporting her in getting a job and the separation process. I told her it is really hard for me to do. She specifically brought up the time where I was discouraging when she started talking about jobs. I admitted that was a mistake and that I had already apologized for that. But she kept on hammering me on it...basically telling me that if I loved her then I wouldn't ever say something like that to her. I totally want to support her, but at the same time, I totally don't want our M to end.
She said that if I support her and stay positive through our S it would really help her let go of a lot of her resentment toward me...so I told her I am going to do that. Just listen and be there for her. I know I don't owe her that...but it is what I want to do. This M is ending, and I would like it to end on as a positive note as possible.
Here's what we've worked out logistically so far:
W is going to try for a govt. job that pays in the $40-50K/yr range. I am going to do everything I can to help her with that, because it would greatly benefit both of us for her to get a job with steady hours, job security, good pay, and good benefits. And it would be a huge boost to her self esteem.
We both want a 50/50 split with the kids, despite the counselor saying that it's not good for them.
We both agreed that we are married until we sign final D paperwork, and that a R/sex with someone else prior to that would be cheating. We'll see how that goes. I want to leave the door open to reconciliation...she doesn't see how that could ever happen.
She wants to stay in DC. I am ok with that, and will stay in the Navy, at least for the next 2 years. I can always get out at a later time if they try to force me to move away from the kids.
IC today. Should have plenty to discuss.
Navy, I've spent the last few days reading all your threads. Man, you are a pillar of patience. I applaud the effort you've put into this thing. I think you can safely say you've done everything within your power to try to keep this thing together.
Hang in there bud...be good to yourself.
most of your post again, shows such self awarness...such growth that I commend you
Tried talking to W last night about some of the details. It didn't go well...and we ended up going down the same old rabbit hole, going back and forth on our past.
Lots of her saying "you should have known better" and me saying "I don't see how I could have known, I never intended to hurt you". We're never going to see eye to eye on the past...
I just need to accept that and stop those conversations before they start.
So how will you do that, in a simple brief and to the point way, from now on?
We did agree that our communication problems were the major reason we are where we are today. I asked her that we both really try to communicate throughout this S process...let's at least do it right this time.
W feels like I am not supporting her in getting a job and the separation process. I told her it is really hard for me to do. She specifically brought up the time where I was discouraging when she started talking about jobs. I admitted that was a mistake and that I had already apologized for that.
But she kept on hammering me on it...
YOU
must stop the hammering...really. Tell her you have to go if htat's what it takes for her to modify HER own inappropriate angry behavior. It gets you two nowhere.basically telling me that if I loved her then I wouldn't ever say something like that to her. I totally want to support her, but at the same time, I totally don't want our M to end.
blah blah blah....haven't we been thru this same scene a hundred times?
She said that if I support her and stay positive through our S it would really help her let go of a lot of her resentment toward me...
Gee, what would that be like? I mean,
So what? How will that help YOU? What would be different?
You still seem to think SHE has the right to feel angry
and she does NOT!
so I told her I am going to do that. Just listen and be there for her.
I know I don't owe her that...but it is what I want to do. This M is ending, and I would like it to end on as a positive note as possible.
do not confuse a "positive note" with being treated badly, again....and taking it...again.Here's what we've worked out logistically so far:
W is going to try for a govt. job that pays in the $40-50K/yr range. I am going to do everything I can to help her with that, because it would greatly benefit both of us for her to get a job with steady hours, job security, good pay, and good benefits. And it would be a huge boost to her self esteem.
We both want a 50/50 split with the kids,
despite the counselor saying that it's not good for them.
that's the first c I've heard say that. Get a 2nd opinion or she may use that one in court...We both agreed that we are married until we sign final D paperwork, and that a R/sex with someone else prior to that would be cheating.
Um, I think we already know how that will go. What are you going to DO if she lies or breaks that weakly made promse? (Sorry but it sounds weakly made TO ME)
I want to leave the door open to reconciliation...she doesn't see how that could ever happen.
Then stop bringing it up!
Start acting, finally, as if YOU GET IT....she' done-- So IT'S DONE...okay, and guess what?
YOU WILL BE FINE ANYHOW...the only possible way for her to "get it" is if she believes YOU get it
and so far, you kind of still don't. You still have hopes...and that shows and it comes off as neediness to HER
and that makes her run faster and farther....sure wish you could see that.
She wants to stay in DC. I am ok with that, and will stay in the Navy, at least for the next 2 years. I can always get out at a later time if they try to force me to move away from the kids.
IC today. Should have plenty to discuss.
Hang in there. A lot of progress is happening.
How is your support group helping you and ARE YOU availing yourself of them?
Agree with all 25 said
Just have to add that the whole "if you loved me" is pure manipulation.
"if you loved you'd fall on a sword for me"
"if you loved me you'd let me keep taking advantage of you"
She knows that by dredging up the past she can get you to defensive and asking for forgiveness, once she has the moral high ground on you she can push you into positions you may not agree with.
The reason she keeps bringing it up, is because it is still an effective strategy for her.
Stop apologizing for the past, next time you feel like using the word sorry in front of her, say this instead, "don't worry, you won't have to deal with this situation soon". Or "boy things are screwed up, good thing we're ending this huh?" smile then step back.
Seriously drama is her weapon so disarm her, laugh, be playful, don't get sucked in anymore.
Think of a pit of despair your W has all sorts of nasty weapons stashed down there which she can club you over the head and win with. Yet in order for her to use them on you she has to either lure you, or outright drag you into the pit. In fact you may even think that you are jumping in the pit to help her get out. That's not how it works though.
She needs to get herself out the pit, and as soon as you giver her a hand she'll just grab you and drag you in. Remember that's the plan. On the other hand if you just keep walking, eventually she'll get tired of waiting for you to fall in there with her, and pull herself out.
After she realizes the strategy doesn't work anymore she'll stop, because it's not fun to sit in the pit of despair by yourself, especially if you can't use it to drag someone else in.
Remmember misery loves company.
The reason she keeps bringing it up, is because it is still an effective strategy for her.
Stop apologizing for the past, next time you feel like using the word sorry in front of her, say this instead, "don't worry, you won't have to deal with this situation soon". Or "boy things are screwed up, good thing we're ending this huh?" smile then step back.
Seriously drama is her weapon so disarm her, laugh, be playful, don't get sucked in anymore.
Think of a pit of despair your W has all sorts of nasty weapons stashed down there which she can club you over the head and win with. Yet in order for her to use them on you she has to either lure you, or outright drag you into the pit. In fact you may even think that you are jumping in the pit to help her get out. That's not how it works though.
She needs to get herself out the pit, and as soon as you giver her a hand she'll just grab you and drag you in. Remember that's the plan. On the other hand if you just keep walking, eventually she'll get tired of waiting for you to fall in there with her, and pull herself out.
After she realizes the strategy doesn't work anymore she'll stop, because it's not fun to sit in the pit of despair by yourself, especially if you can't use it to drag someone else in.
Remmember misery loves company.
Awesome, awesome post, GB90.
That is as good of a description of the dynamic as I've ever seen on ANY forum. Somebody sticky that sucka!!!
Starsky, who's saving that one in his personal archives
Breakdown - Thanks. Although sometimes I wonder if I am more of a pillar of stubbornness than patience.
25 - Again, you've hit the nail on the head. I can stop the negative conversations before they start by staying positive with W and supporting her - almost like I'm excited for her to go. (which I'll admit, there is a very small, but growing part of me that is). If she does try to drag me into "the pit" as GB put it, I need to walk away. As soon as I sense negativity or blaming, the conversation has to end. As my IC put it, "I am laying down in front of her and asking her to kick me". I also need to remind myself daily that the M is dead, and I am now trying to bury it, not resurrect it.
If I can accomplish these things, I know I'll be good through this process...for her, well, that's her problem.
^^^^^YES....and again, YES!!!!
Last night was a fun one. W brought up our upcoming trip to Tennessee for her family reunion, and that she was surprised that I was going. I asked her if she wanted me to go. She said "I'm not going to tell you not to go". So that went back and forth for awhile and opened up a can of worms...and we started talking about our families...and our histories and all the "horrible" wrongs that have been committed over the years. W was attacking my mom pretty hard over something ridiculous, so I got up and walked inside and went to bed. Then W called my phone from out on the deck and tried to keep it going, but I stopped it pretty quickly. I am SOOO done with this negative crap!!!
W and I had counseling today. It was pretty rough. W got beat up for "dragging her feet" and I got beat up for "deciding things without talking to her".
I didn't go down the road of directly pointing this out...but I feel like I am being forced to make decisions because she's not doing anything proactively and gets upset/angry every time I try to talk to her about things.
I told C about how I had put together a budget and a list of our options with the pros and cons for each, and that I had asked W to provide her input, and she didn't. W got really upset and then pulled out the "Navy discouraged me from getting a job" card. C was sympathetic to her, but then told her to "put her big girl pants on" and put herself out there.
So basically, we both left C's office feeling pretty beat up.
And now I'm left here trying to decide if I want to go on this trip or not. W's family doesn't really know much about what is going on, but W's SIL knows a bit and was surprised to hear I was coming. I want to go and have a good time and enjoy myself and have a vacation (which I'm paying for) with the kids...but I'm sure there will be some awkwardness.
Not sure what to do...but I know I'm not going to ask W again if she wants me to go or not.
My first gut reaction. Don't go.
Let her start dealing with the types of situations she will deal with the rest of her life. Stay home and start enjoying yourself. Her family will find out eventually so why avoid it?
Personally I see no win out of you going. Just ask yourself what do you gain?
My first gut reaction. Don't go.
Let her start dealing with the types of situations she will deal with the rest of her life. Stay home and start enjoying yourself. Her family will find out eventually so why avoid it?
Personally I see no win out of you going. Just ask yourself what do you gain?
Absolutely agree. What do you have to gain? Nothing. Start showing your W that you are just as done as she has been.
GB/Denver:
I agree completely...the only thing making me want to go at this point is that my kids think I am going and they will be upset if I don't....I also don't want to lie to them and give some BS excuse for why I'm not going.
So I'm weighing that against all the very good reasons not to go. Tough one.
GB/Denver:
I agree completely...the only thing making me want to go at this point is that my kids think I am going and they will be upset if I don't....I also don't want to lie to them and give some BS excuse for why I'm not going.
So I'm weighing that against all the very good reasons not to go. Tough one.
Tough position Navy. But at some point, you are going to have to be upfront and honest with your kids about the reality of the situation. No better time than the present IMO.
GB/Denver:
I agree completely...the only thing making me want to go at this point is that my kids think I am going and they will be upset if I don't....I also don't want to lie to them and give some BS excuse for why I'm not going.
So I'm weighing that against all the very good reasons not to go. Tough one.
Tough position Navy. But at some point, you are going to have to be upfront and honest with your kids about the reality of the situation. No better time than the present IMO.
his kids are 6 and 4 dude. I would say he can be "honest" with them to a point but there are things they won't understand.
No question Harrier. But what? Is suppose to continue to go to family reunions for the next 5-10 years until they are old enough to understand??
I'm not saying that it's not a tough situation, but come on...
Don't have kids so can't speak that angle, but i agree with Denver.
Navy how is it going buddy?
Navy,
just checking in to see how you are. Don't know if your vacation has come up but as you "Paid for it' you know, you could still do some fun things w/your own family of origin, or friends, while they are gone, IF that's the route.
My question is whether there is another reason you wanted to go. Like to give your side of things to her family?
To possibly pressure them? Just curious if you did a "motive check" there.
I believe your concerns about your kids, but wondered about any other possibilities.
Take care and keep us posted. We care.
Navy where are you , give us an update...
Then W said she wants me to be happy...and she still wants us to be friends and be able to talk to each other and be there for each other. But that she just doesn't want the M anymore. She told me that what happened in the past is in the past, but that she can't get over it, and that her feelings for me have not changed at all since she was first "done" in her mind, despite all the changes I have made.
Deja' vu!! That is practically word-for-word what my W told me as well. Wants me to be happy, wants to be best friends, but can't get over what happened in the past (but can't really verbalize what that is) is done with the M and doesn't want to "try" even though she says I've done 180's on every complaint she had.
I think you're jumping the gun when you say the M is over at S though. Lots of reconciliations don't happen until an S occurs. The WAS wants time and space and most of the time they just can't get it when they're under the same roof as the LBS. I validated W when she said she wanted the S even though it's the last thing I wanted. I looked at it as a needed step to a possible future reconciliation. And what I've found is it's been a lot easier for me to detach now that she's out. Hopefully you'll find it's a healthy step for both of you.
Hey everyone! Just stopping by to say hello. Sorry it's been so long. I've been thinking about you all, but for some reason that is hard to explain, I needed to take a break from the boards.
The trip to Tennessee went well. W's family still doesn't know what's going on. We all had a good time.
I'm doing ok. W and I are still under the same roof, but getting closer to a separation. Since my last post, W got a job and started working. We hired a nanny to watch the kids before and after school. W and I haven't talked about it much lately, but I think the plan is for her to save up enough money to move out and then do so. It is inevitable at this point, and honestly I am looking forward to it.
We are still amicable, but I have really been keeping my distance from her. Her behavior hasn't changed one bit. We haven't had a "talk" in probably 6-8 weeks. She is still sitting alone on the deck and drinking and smoking every night. She's still drinking a lot. I have stopped going out there and hanging out with her. I was thinking that she might change once she started working, but it hasn't.
Pretty sure she's still messaging "OM" on a daily basis...but has not seen him as far as I know.
W comes home and spends about an hour telling me about her day at work. All the gory details. I listen to her...but I am constantly wondering why she is telling me all that.
I am ready to get on with my life...and right now it feels like she's an anchor that's keeping me stuck. I am pretty sure that I'm going to have to be the one to do the dirty work here (i.e. start separation-related discussions).
I've mostly been using this time to emotionally heal from this mess. I think the last 2 years have been rough, but I should have a relatively short recovery time once she's out the door.
I took the kids to OBX last weekend, and we had a great time.
All in all, things are getting better. W is still miserable to be around...but that's her problem now, not ours.
Hope everyone is doing well!
You sound well Navy. Never know what the future holds for us. I think that you are going down the right path for YOU, for now.
Completely understand taking a break from the boards. I did the same thing at a couple of different points.
Hang in there.
Denver
Hey Navy,
just checking in to see how you are doing.
Also to check in if you are still in contact with your buddy from the workshop you attended (i.e., "Essential Experience"). I'm going back to do team for it in the late winter/early spring, and think H will go with me.
He's still deployed but we both know that doing team (which is free to do once you participate in it the first time) always helps us get back on track.
I'm assuming we'll need some adjustment time anyhow. Thoughts on that?
I believe the follow up support that EE provides is excellent and I so hope you are availing yourself of it.
Am very glad you see your w's moods as HER problem and not yours...b/c that is the truth. And it's freeing...
Hello everyone. Long time no see.
It’s been 3 months, so I’ll start by bringing everyone up to speed.
I am doing well. The new job is becoming quite challenging, but I have moved from being the peon to the boss and I have a great staff working for me…it has made going to work fun again. Stressful at times, but fun. I made friends with a great bunch of people that I met on a soccer team over the Fall…I can’t wait for the Spring season to start. I have also planned a trip to Costa Rica in September to see a friend from Grad School and to see the USA v. Costa Rica World Cup qualifier. Should be an awesome experience.
The kids are both amazing (with brief moments of extreme frustration such as D7 dropping her new iPad on the sidewalk and cracking the glass last night after being told at least a dozen times to not play/watch things on it while walking around) and are both doing really well. D7 is up to Red belt and S4 is up to purple belt in Tae Kwon Do. They are both doing great in school and my relationship with them could not be better.
Ok, ok, I know…enough stalling, I’ll get to what you’re really here for now.
To start, I would like to point out that 3 days from now will be 2 years from when I joined the DB boards. I am not D’d, nor am I S’d…and I’m nearly certain I would be if not for the strength I gathered from being here and the support you all provided.
When we last left off, W had gotten her job and was working on saving up enough money to get her own place and I was getting to the point where I was ok with that. Sometime shortly after my last post I think I got to that point, and W and I talked and we set a “goal” for her to find her own place by Thanksgiving. She looked for a couple weeks, and then it seemed like she stopped looking.
Thanksgiving came and went.
I waited about a week after Thanksgiving and then picked a night to go talk to W out on the back deck. I told her that Thanksgiving had come and gone and I felt like we were moving back toward limbo and away from progress toward separating. I told her I refuse to go back to limbo. We also had our annual Christmas trip to Colorado coming up. I asked her how she envisioned that going. She said “pretty much like normal”. I told her I was not willing to go home and “fake it” again. She said that she guessed that she could tell her family what was going on. I said ok, and then went inside to go to sleep.
W came in about an hour later. I was still awake, so I said something along the lines of “what’s up?”. She said she was confused. I asked her what about. She said “work….and us”. I asked her if she cared to elaborate. She spent the next half hour telling me about issues at work…I just listened to her. Eventually, I steered the subject toward the “and us” part of her being confused. She didn’t elaborate …just told me again that she was confused…which somehow led to us ML.
Since then, things have changed. The isolationism has stopped. Physical touch and sharing activities have come back. We are getting along great. Making future plans together. W has made no mention of moving out or separating. She has talked about quitting her job and going back to staying home with the kids (since she was just doing it so she could support herself and now she doesn’t need that). All positive signs…I think.
So we move to me….and what I want. I am still feeling W out at this point and want to make sure I’m not going to get burned again. While all the above are great and positive actions, there has been no “declaration of love” from her, nor any direct action to make our marriage strong and make sure this doesn’t happen again. I know what I want from an M – and I am not entirely convinced at this point W can or will give me that. Things have been good and I really do feel good about that past 2 month’s changes but at the same time I realize there is a lot of work to be done on both our parts if we want to make this a real M again.
Well, that’s pretty much it. I’m sorry I haven’t been by more…I’m still kind of in a place where I am trying to keep myself out of the weeds of my R with W, and when I post on here I tend to get way into the weeds. I don’t know if that makes sense to anyone or not. Hopefully if things continue on a positive trend I will be back more often with some inspiration for everyone.
I hope everyone is doing ok out there. I will try to catch up on some of the old-timers stories and chime in where I can. Thanks again to everyone for everything….as I’ve said before, however this works out, I’m going to be great.
That is some good news. HOWEVER, have the two of you discussed counseling? Too many times I've seen couples here get back together only to be broken up again because they didn't take care of what the initial problems were. Have you two ever brought that up?
Us men are SO easy.
Bond...we have not discussed it yet, but that was my main topic at IC last week. Things have still been going good...but we seem to be moving back toward limbo vice a healthy M. IC and Icame up with a plan to bring it up...and basically find out if W is doing this out of fear of leaving or if she really wants to be married. Her actions the last couple weeks tell me it is the former...but we'll see. If she's not willing to try to work on our problems, we'll be right back where we were before...and that's unacceptable to me.
While I would say she's no longer "mad", W seems largely disinterested in meeting my emotional and physical needs at this point. I know that takes time...but I expect to see some effort. If she's not willing to make our M a priority in her life and start working toward it being a mutually beneficial relationship, then we'll be back on the path toward a D.
Navyguy,
Your W sounds like me in my M. Reading it from your perspective really makes me amazed that my H put up with it for so long. I wanted him to meet my needs but I NEVER reciprocated. To me, showing love was too risky.
Navy,
No offense, but as you know I've followed your sitch a long time, and it seems to me like your wife simply "tagged" you with sex, in order to keep you in place until she can figure out what she wants to do with you. Plate-spinning.
I felt that when you posted last week, and then even moreso now that I read what you just posted above.
I think you're going to have to upset the applecart here to get her off the dime, unless you are willing to just be the fallback guy.
Starsky
Starsky - I think there's a decent chance that you're right. There have been other changes...but nothing that's really made me feel loved. She has talked about long-term plans for us quite a few times
Staying in limbo is absolutely not an option - and that's where my gut tells me we're headed (or already at).
My next IC is in 2 weeks...I already promised IC I would "tip the applecart" before then, with the goal of figuring out W's true intent here.
If her intent is to stay M to me, then I need to hear that from her and start seeing actions that make me believe it. I completely understand that piecing takes time - but I have to know that we actually are piecing in order to be willing to be patient with her.
If she's still "not sure", then it's back on the path to separating. This has gone on for WAY too long and her time to be unsure about me has come and gone. There are plenty of women out there that would love to be in my life and would appreciate everything I have to offer.
Life is too short to live like this for as long as I have...and I'm the one that has control over whether I do or not.
I couldn't agree more, Navy.
There's a fine -- yet oh-so-KEY -- distinction here, and that is that FEELINGS, yes, can take months or even a couple of years to slowly return when a couple pieces, particularly if the marital trauma was particularly severe (ongoing affair, abuse, etc.). But the DECISION to work on the marriage -- to "piece" -- should be clear and unequivocal, in my opinion.
"Make the DECISION to work on our marriage with me, unencumbered by any outside third parties, and I will be patient with you about how long it takes for 'those feelings' to return" would be my position. Hell . . . that WAS my position, in my own sitch!!
Starsky
Yup, bullseye.
Geez, I really need to update my signature. D6 has been 7 for 3 months now.
Navy
did she ever comment on changes in you after the EE workshop? (BTW I'm doing team next week).
And do you think SHE would ever consider going and working on learning how SHE can make herself happier?
B/C unless she makes a significant paradigm shift, I don't see her changing enough.
And a major shift won't LIKELY take place with regular marriage counselling... or even with ICs who are good, b/c we get interrupted b/c we only talk for an hour a week.
When I'd make a breakthrough or have a real insight, the hour would be "up" and i had to go back to work or pick up my kids and go home. The growth is very fragmented.
It's not "efficient" for growth and breakthroughs, like a long weekend of Retrovaille can be, or a personal growth workshop like EE is.
And she doesn't sound as if she's ready for Retrovaille. Hence my question about HER going to a workshop FOR HER and not "for the marriage", per se.
I say all this b/c I feel as if most of the marital problems today are hers, in origin.
WE know you were not perfect, but you sound as if you've been damn close for some time now.
It's her turn to grow and try, isn't it?
And more importantly, What are you ready to do if she's not interested or able?
Hey 25! Nope, she's never commented specifically on my changes after EE - other than noticing how I had "given up and that made it easier for her to try to work on our M".
Have fun this weekend! I definitely plan to go back and do team sometime when life has settled down a bit.
I had a talk with W last night. She sensed something was up and asked what was going on, so I told her this:
"I am having a hard time figuring out where we are at and thinking about it is wearing on me. I'm not sure if you're committed to making our M work. I understand that the feelings will take time, and as long as I know you are committed to our M, I will have all the patience in the world.
I think the things you percieve as me being needy or pushy are actually things I am doing to try to figure that out. And if I know that you're committed, I won't have to fish for that answer anymore."
I told her she didn't need to answer right now. I'll give her a few days to process and if she hasn't brought it up by then, I'll follow up.
I'm not sure if she would consider a workshop like EE. I think she is a bit intrigued by it, but we haven't really talked much about it. It did come up when we were in Colorado over Christmas. W found out one of her good friends is headed toward a D - Of course, I haven't heard his side, but he sounds like a real dirtbag.
He strung her along for about 10 years. She finally left him, he came crawling back with a bunch of promises and asked her to M him. She fell for it, and of course he didn't follow through on any of the promises he made - and now he wants a D since she had the gall to hold him accountable for his promises.
Anyways, I recommended that maybe EE would be good for W's friend - she is a great person and seems like someone that really doesn't understand what she wants in life or what she deserves. W and I talked about it quite a bit, but I don't think she ever said anything to her friend about it.
So, to get to the point, I bring up subtle reminders about EE when I have the opportunity. Maybe someday W will decide she wants to give it a shot.
To answer your last 2 questions:
Yes, it is W's turn to grow and try. (not excusing myself from continuing to do so though!)
If she's not interested, I'll simply tell her that I'm not interested in being married to someone that won't make our M a priority in her life.
If she's not able - that's a tougher question - I haven't really thought about that much since I have no indication that she's tried and failed. I think the answer is the same in the end - I don't deserve to be in an unfulfilling M, and I'd need to free myself from it.
I agree that the answer IS the same in the end, Navy.
You do deserve the marriage you want, and need, and put effort into.
IF she's not, (and can you tell me how she is, other than saying she might want to work on it BUT doesn't FEEL it yet??)
then you know that greater things are around the corner for you regardless of HER actions.
25 - There have been some small changes in her actions...baby steps...but nothing that has shown me she has chosen to be "in" our M.
I plan to follow up with her tonight on last week's conversation.
good luck man. Are you sticking with an "action plan" or staying in touch with your buddy?
I only ask to see if the follow up is helping you maintain clarity. No pressure.
Just, never forget that you deserve to be loved. If the partner isn't "aware" of it by now, or capable of it, do what you gotta do. Life is short.
25, hope the weekend went well. I hope you're taking today off.
I haven't done a good job staying in touch with my buddy - I think for the same reason I haven't been on here much. I needed a break from the drama and thinking about and analyzing my sitch all the time. I am still going to IC and that definitely helps maintain clarity...she has been great.
I will admit my clarity took a hit when W put the brakes on separating. This "push-pull" cycle we are in is crazy. I pull away, W wants to work on M. I start acting like we're M, she wants to pull away. We have been getting along pretty well, but I still see this cycle at work. Not good.
I have not had the follow-up convo with W yet. No good excuse other than me being a big chicken. Definitely have to do it before IC on Thursday though.
Lack of intimacy is really becoming a big issue for me. After a brief stint following the holidays, we are back near 1 month with no ML and no visible affection from W. Saturday night W and I played a card game until about midnight and had a good time. Once we got in bed I tried initiating, and got rejected...again. At this point, am I rushing things or expecting too much by trying to get her interested in ML? A marriage without intimacy is not something I'm interested in.
Things are tough for me today. I'm very frustrated with W and pissed off at myself for letting things get back to where I feel this way.
Navy, what does she say when she rejects you?
Starsky
Typically it's either "hmmmph" or "what time is it", followed by rolling over.
The last time we actually talked about it was when she told me "given what we've just been through, she's not ready for it and that it makes her feel pressured to do something she doesn't want to do".
Have you told her that you have no intention of living in a sexless marriage?
Not yet...but consider it added to tonight's agenda.
I'll tie it in to the discussion on whether or not she is committed to being M to me and making this work. She has had 2 weeks to think about her answer to that since I first asked her -That is enough time to figure that out, isn't it?
If she is committed, I am more than willing to be patient with the lack of sex/affection - but only if I see her taking consistent action toward making our M work.
If she is not committed or "not sure", then she needs to stop wasting my time.
I never had a "wild and crazy" period where I hooked up with anyone I could. I've been with 4 women total (don't laugh you Arrested Development fans). The first 3 were a couple times each. W was my 4th. Since the ILYBINILY letter back in 2009, I'd say I could easily count the total number of times we've ML on my fingers and toes. So at most, for the last 4 years, I've been averaging 5 times a year.
As much as I dislike what I just typed, it did give me some clarity. Why would anyone put themselves through this for this long???
As has been said...life is short.
Hey everyone. W and I had our talk about working on our M a few days ago. I asked her if she had thought anymore about if she is committed to making our M work. She said that she is still here. I told her that I don't necessarily equate that to trying to work on our M. She agreed with that, and said that yes, she is trying.
I think we still have very different ideas of what trying is. For her, she is waiting to see if her feelings can come back. I haven't really seen any actual action on her part. IC and I discussed this quite extensively this week - and while I think things are different this time around, I had a hard time explaining why. IC said that from her POV, it seems like we are going back into our old situation. "Stuck". IC said that forward progress seems to have stopped. I couldn't really argue with her.
My biggest challenge is intimacy with W. I really feel like if we can come up with a plan to deal with that, we'll be on the right path. I am trying to create it, and she doesn't necessarily want it. It seems like an easy fix on the surface, but I am really struggling with this. It is probably pushing her away and having the opposite of my desired effect - but for some reason I keep telling myself "maybe today will be different" and I try again.
I'm sure being completely sex-starved isn't helping me out here at all. And now I feel like there's actually a chance for initmacy, so I want it more. I know this comes down to self-control, but what I don't know is if I should have to suppress these feelings and desires.
What do I do?
I don't know if I recommended it to you, but your W should read Alisa Bowman's book. Look up Project Happily Ever After in your browser. She was a woman who wanted out of her M, but decided to try and make it work one last time. She has a blog and takes a light-hearted yet very honest way of how things are in her M and what it took to turn things around. You might be able to get a few things out of it too.
Probably would be best to talk to a DB coach, Navy. They know what's best.
Starsky
Just popping in to see how things are with you, Navy.
5 times a year? For some, that might work. Your reason for accepting that in your life is your own. That you are changing your mind on that, is something you may want to look at. Why would that change, now?
My "needs" being met was much, much, much more frequent than that. I generally had that in my M. Did I really need the sex? IDK. Maybe what I really need is the closeness of a warm body. A feeling of intimacy, even without the sex. Although... one thing generally leads to the next...
What I'm getting at is, the sex may not be the important part, as much as the need to feel love and connection. Sex really is just procreation. Love and connection, being emotionally and physically connected and also intimate with another... even without the sex, may be all you need / want/
Why would you have ever expected something different from your W over the years? Why would you expect (that really means "hope for") something different in the M, in the future?
If that really wasn't something important for you, then you could go live in a bush by yourself as a hermit. Same goes for your W. Does she really not need to feel love and connection? Or is she getting the love and connection she needs, even though it does not lead to sex...
Or perhaps... all she really ever wanted was to feel safe, in which case the love, connection and sexual intimacy was only her way of giving to you what you demanded, when she felt her security was at risk...
like it is when you let her know you pull away...
She's negotiating with you, without using words. You've accepted the terms, for what ever those reasons are...
That may never change... That may be something you will continue to live with, unless your W suddenly found interest in more than just security...
FYI, the general transit of human needs according to one well known personality is:
+ Certainty/Comfort
+ Variety
+ Significance
+ Connection/Love
+ Growth
+ Contribution
We all generally move along this cycle, although we have a specific need we may be more drawn to.
How it relates to your sitch, past and future, could at least prove enlightening. It still remains both parties who need to continue to work on the M because they feel it provides them with value.
Navy
I think at times your w reminds me of one of those foreign leaders who acts interested in reconciliation whenever we impose sanctions...THEN pulls back when we want to inspect something or get something back.
I won't tell you what to do.
But, imo, she's NOT trying. Is that what you are really asking?
And she has not tried much for several years now. You are not wrong to expect more Navy.
5 times a year is fine if you're only asking 5 or 6 times a year. To mem the ratio of rejection is relevant. She rejects you a lot. She initiates...never?? And I assume you ask less often b/c you expect to be turned down...so,
Aside from the sexless aspects...
I'm impressed with how you have stayed in what I would call a "loveless" m -more than anything else. A lot of folks have sexual issues but are strong in other areas. Some of them still divorce.
I don't see where you two are connecting anywhere, for any length of time.
I'm so sorry to say this Navy, but to me, she's using you for a roof over her head, child care for the kids, and tuition for her career
which she sometimes seems interested in...and sometimes is not. I'm not sure she knows this.
MAYBE there are moments when she's actually confused about her choices. But that is the only thing that has struck me.
Power Of Now went to EE when I did team btw and yes, it was very rejuvenating. PON shared some things with his w about a sad story of one participant. HE shared some of his own insights from his childhood too. I think they bonded from his disclosure. She felt empathy for the participant he was discussing and I think she was touched by his own brave work.
Disclosure builds intimacy. Does she share anything with you of significance? Do you share with her?
You sound really lonely.
So you know, EE (Essential Experience) has its' next workshop in May and then again in August. I think that's it for this year.
See if you can get a buddy or relative to check it out, and then you'll have someone in your life who gets it. BTW There are also some DC people in support groups there, which I know b/c you are near my hometown of DC, right? Check out their fb page too. You can avail yourself of more support.
You need way more support in your life and your m is not likely to ever provide it. If you won't leave the m, and you won't have needs met IN it,
at least try to get some emotional support from your buddy or EE community or join a church or something so you don't have to suffer all this alone.
I don't believe you want too much from your m or w, OMG, I am sure you do not want too much. As Kaffe said though, why'd you think SHE could give something she has not given meaninfully for years?
Did you ever ASK her to go to EE? I might do that if she's actually claiming to work on the m.
"Working on a marriage" means MUCH more than "staying here"--- but I really think that is what SHE thinks working on it means.
Which is darn convenient for HER and darn lousy for you...