Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 02:34 AM
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 02:55 AM
Previously posted by 25yearsmlc:
I was not really interested in a theological discussion. I just wanted Crimson to see the HOPE in his situation. I think he gets the pain part already.
Crimson---when she apologizes for reaming you (as opposed to some mutual "fray" for which you both would apologize for hurtful things said) then accept the apology.
At best her timing of the reaming sukked. You took her out, you both laughed a lot and she held your arm and then gets in the car to ream you out?
At worst, she HAD to blow the evening b/c God forbid she acts happy around you when she MUST be miserable and prove that you are too.
That was just lousy of HER...let her apologize.
In the future If she wants to express regrets or anger, pick a normal appropriate time. Even if she is "right" to feel however she feels, you think a birthday party is a good time to bring it up? How about Christmas Eve? See my point?
As for the validating and not recalling--as you may recall, my h does NOT remember saying that he was "willing to take that chance" when I asked him if he knew he was risking losing our marriage and family.
He says he'd "never say something like that, ever."....I can tell you where I was (guest bathroom) and what I was doing--not gross--I was spackling the wall.
So yes, I am positive he said it.
But to him that would be SO hurtful and stupid to say, he just cannot believe it. I think at some level he does not want to.
Unlike your w, I don't HAVE to have him recall it, but then again, it wasn't about having another child. If she does not think you know HOW you hurt her then she'll not feel safe about it not happening again. That is the difference.
If you don't recall something at all, MAYBE you can say "I can't believe I'd be that insensitive or stupid or---, b/c I DO WANT another child..."
and wasn't it possible you were worried about money or time? I thought at the start of this, in your posts, you did recall saying some wacky things you regretted -- but you defended in your posts...maybe those are what she's discussing?
She may win for sending the most mixed signals in the world...but it's better than the option of sending clarity with a good bye.
Do you ever talk about how YOU FEEL, NOW? Ever share that? It's a form of intimacy and disclosure builds intimacy.
Too many men "interview" women to see how the women feel, which is great---but if they never open up themselves, it's a bit unfair. The woman makes herself vulnerable, or naked, and the guy just takes it in, like he's gathering intel,
It's often well intended so I don't mean to bash guys here. The man doesn't want to appear self centered and I get that.
He wants his wife to feel heard and understood. But in your w's case, she needs to know how you feel.
so maybe, no more remarks about being a better dad..."with someone, someday" b/c they sound vaguely threatening like you'd "show her"....
If she brings up another child as a topic,
can you own the fact that YOU FEEL CONFUSED NOT about wanting another child but about including her in it, b/c she is confused about whether she wants to be with you AND
yes, you DO want to be a father again. You would prefer it be with her BUT you also know that whenever you speak of future plans, she backs down and gets distant.
So you are sort of damed if you do, and damned if you don't.
If that's how you feel, would it be so weird to tell her that?
She needs some accountability for what she expresses too.
Yes -I know Crimson, I know you have said you were a jerk in the marriage (per YOU, not me)and a lot of what you describe was very selfish, and I know that she was hurt often, and deeply.
I get it. You get it. We get it. Sooooo
What is it that she wants from you, NOW?
I'm thinking she wants you to keep courting her without paying attention to divorce papers, no matter what they say or what gets filed, etc. She wants to know if those changes of yours, were tactics for stalling/stopping a divorce
(b/c the timing of your letter the night before a hearing - sukked too, but yes, better late than never) OR
if they're real. How best can she test that, but by following through?
I know it's dramatic and painful - but in a weird way I can see why.
Just my opinion. I'd love to hear other's.
Sorry for the confusion Crimson but hey, there is still a whole lot of hope.
Her apology was spot on. And it's an improvement. It means she knows you have changed for the better and perhaps she wants to live UP to that in herself too. Hence HER doing the apologizing. You were not flawless in the discussion but you were pretty damn good.
The statement "I don't recall that but I'm sorry IF I hurt you" is only for batchit crazy things they accuse you of.
In your case, You know you DID hurt her - so just stick to saying sorry for THAT. And then make the point of how it'd be different in the future so she can envision it.
Even if she misheard something, it DID hurt her. Make sense?
((( )))
Yes, it does make sense. In my head I am "reviewing the tape" from Saturday night and I think I did a reasonable job of it. I DID let her know that I was aware of the fact that I hurt her (intentional or not) and that I was sorry and regretted it deeply. All very true.
To answer your question, no - I don't think I have FULLY told her how I feel right now. Well, as far as being confused anyway. IF I were to intimate that she is confusing me to some level (mixed signals, why do you say you want baby with ME, etc.) my concern is that she would become defensive. Allow me to elaborate.
One of the MAJOR communication problems I think we have is her level of sensitivity. She is very sensitive to criticism. Many times in the past I have tried to approach her when something is bothering me or if I am upset. If it relates to something she did or said she becomes very defensive and it used to escalate into an argument. You recall she said I "nit-picked her about everything"? Well, a lot of what she called nit-picking by be was really me trying to express my being unhappy about something (an incident, something she said, how I was treated, etc.). If was a major catch 22 because in MC a million years ago she said she wanted me to TELL her when I was unhappy or bothered because she didn't like me holding it in and getting "quiet". Then once I got in the habit of trying to tell her, she would accuse me if nit-picking, or being critical, or something along those lines. I was literally stuck.
SOOOO, if I tell her now that I am confused by some things I am betting that in her very raw, sensitive state right now she would read that as me being "me" again and criticizing her....not understanding where she is right now....having expectations.....and so on. Ergo, I am leery of really bringing it up now.
Regarding her apology - I should have just said "It's OK" and left it at that. I think I was trying to let her know that I was neither hurt nor angered by what she said. Perhaps I went too far in the effort by saying "you have nothing to apologize for". At the end of the day I think I was trying to be comforting.
25, when you say she wants me to keep "courting" what does that mean? Clearly when I tried over the last few weeks she kinda freaked out on me a bit. How do I do that in a way that is not over-powering or indicative of mismatched feelings? How do you court someone that is on the fence on whether or not they even want to be with you? I struggle with that. I know that doing NOTHING is not necessarily the right answer (though I have deliberately scaled back my texts/e-mails and I have never called just to call) - but I also know that doing too much is the wrong choice, too.
Today SHE call me at my office just to ask about how S did in the morning - or so she claimed. Then she went on about an experience she had with Hindu holy woman (yes, you read that correctly) Sunday evening at the home of a friend. It was actually a really cool story and when I said I understood why she was fascinated by it she responded "you used to not be" - but not in a negative way. That convo lasted about 30 minutes and I hung up feeling pretty good about it.
Anyhoooo - hope all is well.
Crimson
I was not really interested in a theological discussion. I just wanted Crimson to see the HOPE in his situation. I think he gets the pain part already.
Crimson---when she apologizes for reaming you (as opposed to some mutual "fray" for which you both would apologize for hurtful things said) then accept the apology.
At best her timing of the reaming sukked. You took her out, you both laughed a lot and she held your arm and then gets in the car to ream you out?
At worst, she HAD to blow the evening b/c God forbid she acts happy around you when she MUST be miserable and prove that you are too.
That was just lousy of HER...let her apologize.
In the future If she wants to express regrets or anger, pick a normal appropriate time. Even if she is "right" to feel however she feels, you think a birthday party is a good time to bring it up? How about Christmas Eve? See my point?
As for the validating and not recalling--as you may recall, my h does NOT remember saying that he was "willing to take that chance" when I asked him if he knew he was risking losing our marriage and family.
He says he'd "never say something like that, ever."....I can tell you where I was (guest bathroom) and what I was doing--not gross--I was spackling the wall.
So yes, I am positive he said it.
But to him that would be SO hurtful and stupid to say, he just cannot believe it. I think at some level he does not want to.
Unlike your w, I don't HAVE to have him recall it, but then again, it wasn't about having another child. If she does not think you know HOW you hurt her then she'll not feel safe about it not happening again. That is the difference.
If you don't recall something at all, MAYBE you can say "I can't believe I'd be that insensitive or stupid or---, b/c I DO WANT another child..."
and wasn't it possible you were worried about money or time? I thought at the start of this, in your posts, you did recall saying some wacky things you regretted -- but you defended in your posts...maybe those are what she's discussing?
She may win for sending the most mixed signals in the world...but it's better than the option of sending clarity with a good bye.
Do you ever talk about how YOU FEEL, NOW? Ever share that? It's a form of intimacy and disclosure builds intimacy.
Too many men "interview" women to see how the women feel, which is great---but if they never open up themselves, it's a bit unfair. The woman makes herself vulnerable, or naked, and the guy just takes it in, like he's gathering intel,
It's often well intended so I don't mean to bash guys here. The man doesn't want to appear self centered and I get that.
He wants his wife to feel heard and understood. But in your w's case, she needs to know how you feel.
so maybe, no more remarks about being a better dad..."with someone, someday" b/c they sound vaguely threatening like you'd "show her"....
If she brings up another child as a topic,
can you own the fact that YOU FEEL CONFUSED NOT about wanting another child but about including her in it, b/c she is confused about whether she wants to be with you AND
yes, you DO want to be a father again. You would prefer it be with her BUT you also know that whenever you speak of future plans, she backs down and gets distant.
So you are sort of damed if you do, and damned if you don't.
If that's how you feel, would it be so weird to tell her that?
She needs some accountability for what she expresses too.
Yes -I know Crimson, I know you have said you were a jerk in the marriage (per YOU, not me)and a lot of what you describe was very selfish, and I know that she was hurt often, and deeply.
I get it. You get it. We get it. Sooooo
What is it that she wants from you, NOW?
I'm thinking she wants you to keep courting her without paying attention to divorce papers, no matter what they say or what gets filed, etc. She wants to know if those changes of yours, were tactics for stalling/stopping a divorce
(b/c the timing of your letter the night before a hearing - sukked too, but yes, better late than never) OR
if they're real. How best can she test that, but by following through?
I know it's dramatic and painful - but in a weird way I can see why.
Just my opinion. I'd love to hear other's.
Sorry for the confusion Crimson but hey, there is still a whole lot of hope.
Her apology was spot on. And it's an improvement. It means she knows you have changed for the better and perhaps she wants to live UP to that in herself too. Hence HER doing the apologizing. You were not flawless in the discussion but you were pretty damn good.
The statement "I don't recall that but I'm sorry IF I hurt you" is only for batchit crazy things they accuse you of.
In your case, You know you DID hurt her - so just stick to saying sorry for THAT. And then make the point of how it'd be different in the future so she can envision it.
Even if she misheard something, it DID hurt her. Make sense?
((( )))
Yes, it does make sense. In my head I am "reviewing the tape" from Saturday night and I think I did a reasonable job of it. I DID let her know that I was aware of the fact that I hurt her (intentional or not) and that I was sorry and regretted it deeply. All very true.
To answer your question, no - I don't think I have FULLY told her how I feel right now. Well, as far as being confused anyway. IF I were to intimate that she is confusing me to some level (mixed signals, why do you say you want baby with ME, etc.) my concern is that she would become defensive. Allow me to elaborate.
One of the MAJOR communication problems I think we have is her level of sensitivity. She is very sensitive to criticism. Many times in the past I have tried to approach her when something is bothering me or if I am upset. If it relates to something she did or said she becomes very defensive and it used to escalate into an argument. You recall she said I "nit-picked her about everything"? Well, a lot of what she called nit-picking by be was really me trying to express my being unhappy about something (an incident, something she said, how I was treated, etc.). If was a major catch 22 because in MC a million years ago she said she wanted me to TELL her when I was unhappy or bothered because she didn't like me holding it in and getting "quiet". Then once I got in the habit of trying to tell her, she would accuse me if nit-picking, or being critical, or something along those lines. I was literally stuck.
SOOOO, if I tell her now that I am confused by some things I am betting that in her very raw, sensitive state right now she would read that as me being "me" again and criticizing her....not understanding where she is right now....having expectations.....and so on. Ergo, I am leery of really bringing it up now.
Regarding her apology - I should have just said "It's OK" and left it at that. I think I was trying to let her know that I was neither hurt nor angered by what she said. Perhaps I went too far in the effort by saying "you have nothing to apologize for". At the end of the day I think I was trying to be comforting.
25, when you say she wants me to keep "courting" what does that mean? Clearly when I tried over the last few weeks she kinda freaked out on me a bit. How do I do that in a way that is not over-powering or indicative of mismatched feelings? How do you court someone that is on the fence on whether or not they even want to be with you? I struggle with that. I know that doing NOTHING is not necessarily the right answer (though I have deliberately scaled back my texts/e-mails and I have never called just to call) - but I also know that doing too much is the wrong choice, too.
Today SHE call me at my office just to ask about how S did in the morning - or so she claimed. Then she went on about an experience she had with Hindu holy woman (yes, you read that correctly) Sunday evening at the home of a friend. It was actually a really cool story and when I said I understood why she was fascinated by it she responded "you used to not be" - but not in a negative way. That convo lasted about 30 minutes and I hung up feeling pretty good about it.
Anyhoooo - hope all is well.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 04:34 AM
Crimson, just stopping by to say that your patience is inspiring. I've been following your story for months now and have been rooting you on from the bleachers. I am trying to channel this crazy ride that youve been on and apply what worked for you into my own sitch. It seems like piecing is a much more confusing step than any other. Please keep updating so I can pull out wisdom from your posts and those who are contributing too.
Take care.
Take care.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 08:34 AM
Crimson
I'll post more later but wanted to "mark" this so I can find it faster.
It's late. TTYS and take care...
((( )))
I'll post more later but wanted to "mark" this so I can find it faster.
It's late. TTYS and take care...
((( )))
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 01:57 PM
Thanks, Ben.
I am by no means the most prolific responder to the posts of others (don't feel like I have much to offer yet) but I try to make up for it by posting as honestly about my sitch (as I see it) as I can. If anyone can benefit from that, I am glad. And, frankly, it helps to get it out. I have NO idea where I would be right now without these boards. Seriously.
Crimson
I am by no means the most prolific responder to the posts of others (don't feel like I have much to offer yet) but I try to make up for it by posting as honestly about my sitch (as I see it) as I can. If anyone can benefit from that, I am glad. And, frankly, it helps to get it out. I have NO idea where I would be right now without these boards. Seriously.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 09:12 PM
Just posting for the sole purpose of emptying me head a little and getting rid of some anxiety.
I have to drop S off at W's condo tonight. I hate these days - especially when they are following a long weekend with him. I don't think I can tell you how much it hurts for him to be gone and for the house to be empty. He is such a presence when he is there - and we have such a good time together. When he is gone, I feel truly lonely. Barring my W issuing an invite for something I won't see him again for sure until Sunday night. He is starting to do and say such interesting little things....."Daddy! Look!" was new for this week. I can't imagine a lifetime of this. It literally makes me want to throw up.
Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.
L's assistant contacted me today to try to push back the date of our initial settlement hearing. I guess my L will be out of town. Having to begin with this stage, the "death rattle" of my marriage as I would call it, is really tough. Somewhere in my head I am still hoping for an 11th hour miracle.
Hope you are all well today.
Crimson
I have to drop S off at W's condo tonight. I hate these days - especially when they are following a long weekend with him. I don't think I can tell you how much it hurts for him to be gone and for the house to be empty. He is such a presence when he is there - and we have such a good time together. When he is gone, I feel truly lonely. Barring my W issuing an invite for something I won't see him again for sure until Sunday night. He is starting to do and say such interesting little things....."Daddy! Look!" was new for this week. I can't imagine a lifetime of this. It literally makes me want to throw up.
Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.
L's assistant contacted me today to try to push back the date of our initial settlement hearing. I guess my L will be out of town. Having to begin with this stage, the "death rattle" of my marriage as I would call it, is really tough. Somewhere in my head I am still hoping for an 11th hour miracle.
Hope you are all well today.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 09:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
I am by no means the most prolific responder to the posts of others (don't feel like I have much to offer yet) but I try to make up for it by posting as honestly about my sitch (as I see it) as I can.
Crimson, you keep saying this. You've been around for a good little while, and have one of the most active threads here. You are getting lots of good advice from the vets, and I think you can offer more than you think. Just try it and see. Maybe sharing some of what you are receiving in your own thread could help some of the Newbies here (myself included). Who knows?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.
Crimson
I may be speculating but I see hope here for you, Crimson. It just seems she's confused but she most definitely isn't completely gone from you. That in itself is your 11th hour miracle. It is such a great sign that she agreed to spend a night with you at the comedy club just the two of you. That says A LOT!! And on top of that, she was opening up to you more. I think you're doing amazing...
And I definitely get the part about having to share your child for the rest of your life. That is heart-wrenching and gives me that pit in my stomach too. The positive is, you are present for him... which might not have otherwise happened if things were the same as before.
I have learned a lot from your threads... thank you for sharing your experience with all of us.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
SOOOO, if I tell her now that I am confused by some things I am betting that in her very raw, sensitive state right now she would read that as me being "me" again and criticizing her....not understanding where she is right now....having expectations.....and so on. Ergo, I am leery of really bringing it up now.
One technique you can use for something like this is to label it, that will diffuse the personal issues: "It seems like we're slipping back into the pattern where I tell you how I'm feeling and you interpret that as criticism. That pattern doesn't work well for us, how can we avoid it?"
Have a conversation about the dynamic as a way of having the conversation itself.
Accuray
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 09:54 PM
Went back and read about your Saturday night episode. I went through almost the exact same thing. Here's what I can share:
1) Nice / Angry: Your W will go through periods when she is happy to be with you and honestly has a good time. After she gets a little way down that path she'll mentally say "wait a minute, what the hell am I doing?" Then she'll slam on the brakes and turn on you in an instant -- often with no provocation. My DB coach told me that the WAS will "try on" connecting with you again, but will then greatly fear that you'll assume everything is now OK and will start having expectations of them, so they will yank the rug. There is no solution to this other than to muscle through it and don't take it personally. The best interpretation is that it's a great sign that they were trying on being nice to you to begin with versus avoiding you altogether, so don't let the backlash bother you.
2) Explosive anger / berating: I had a very similar conversation with W where she really let me have it -- talking about stuff I had said 10 years earlier, literally! Your W has a lot of pent up anger and frustration. Some of it is deserved. In other cases, it's stuff that has built up upon itself and gotten much worse in her mind than it really was. That kind of goes like this -- "I'm mad at Crimson because he did X, I'm a '2' on the mad scale." The next morning she wakes up and thinks about it again and decides "I'm a 3 on the mad scale, I'm going to leave him!" Then she takes some action and starts to doubt if she over-reacted, but now she's committed to what she's doing, so instead of thinking it's an overreaction, she convinces herself that the situation is a '6' instead of a '3' because that would better justify the reaction she's taken, and on it goes until things that started out small or as misunderstandings eventually feel to her like cardinal sins.
The very good news is that once this has been expressed to you, it's a load off of W's mind. That's not to say she's over it, she isn't, and you may get it again. The key is that it's no longer bottled up, festering, and continuing to feed itself. Instead, she's working through it and it's on the way out -- and it all needs to come out sufficiently to allow herself to refresh her perspective on your situation.
As painful as it was for me, it was a watershed moment in my sitch and I actually felt great relief when my W was screaming obscenities at me, because I was finally getting some honest and genuine emotion from her, versus just a cold business-like demeanor.
I will bet it was cathartic for her, I believe it was a good sign, and I think you should let it lie and not bring it up or poke at it at all. It may happen again, let it come. Actually, the more it happens the better because it's coming out. Over time it should diminish, and there's a chance she'll get better perspective on it later if you give her time to process.
Accuray
1) Nice / Angry: Your W will go through periods when she is happy to be with you and honestly has a good time. After she gets a little way down that path she'll mentally say "wait a minute, what the hell am I doing?" Then she'll slam on the brakes and turn on you in an instant -- often with no provocation. My DB coach told me that the WAS will "try on" connecting with you again, but will then greatly fear that you'll assume everything is now OK and will start having expectations of them, so they will yank the rug. There is no solution to this other than to muscle through it and don't take it personally. The best interpretation is that it's a great sign that they were trying on being nice to you to begin with versus avoiding you altogether, so don't let the backlash bother you.
2) Explosive anger / berating: I had a very similar conversation with W where she really let me have it -- talking about stuff I had said 10 years earlier, literally! Your W has a lot of pent up anger and frustration. Some of it is deserved. In other cases, it's stuff that has built up upon itself and gotten much worse in her mind than it really was. That kind of goes like this -- "I'm mad at Crimson because he did X, I'm a '2' on the mad scale." The next morning she wakes up and thinks about it again and decides "I'm a 3 on the mad scale, I'm going to leave him!" Then she takes some action and starts to doubt if she over-reacted, but now she's committed to what she's doing, so instead of thinking it's an overreaction, she convinces herself that the situation is a '6' instead of a '3' because that would better justify the reaction she's taken, and on it goes until things that started out small or as misunderstandings eventually feel to her like cardinal sins.
The very good news is that once this has been expressed to you, it's a load off of W's mind. That's not to say she's over it, she isn't, and you may get it again. The key is that it's no longer bottled up, festering, and continuing to feed itself. Instead, she's working through it and it's on the way out -- and it all needs to come out sufficiently to allow herself to refresh her perspective on your situation.
As painful as it was for me, it was a watershed moment in my sitch and I actually felt great relief when my W was screaming obscenities at me, because I was finally getting some honest and genuine emotion from her, versus just a cold business-like demeanor.
I will bet it was cathartic for her, I believe it was a good sign, and I think you should let it lie and not bring it up or poke at it at all. It may happen again, let it come. Actually, the more it happens the better because it's coming out. Over time it should diminish, and there's a chance she'll get better perspective on it later if you give her time to process.
Accuray
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 10:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me.
Originally Posted By: Crimson
L's assistant contacted me today to try to push back the date of our initial settlement hearing. I guess my L will be out of town. Having to begin with this stage, the "death rattle" of my marriage as I would call it, is really tough. Somewhere in my head I am still hoping for an 11th hour miracle.
Crimson, is it foggy where you live?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 10:42 PM
Probably! Are you saying all of these things ARE the 11th hour miracle?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/10/12 11:44 PM
:shakeshead: Crimson, Crimson
I don't know how many times you have been told that you are focusing so much on a date in time - as if the date will automatically change feelings or chances of Recon.
There is NO 11th hour. That to me looks like you are only making changes to get her to notice. Not for you
I don't know how many times you have been told that you are focusing so much on a date in time - as if the date will automatically change feelings or chances of Recon.
There is NO 11th hour. That to me looks like you are only making changes to get her to notice. Not for you
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 12:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
Just posting for the sole purpose of emptying me head a little and getting rid of some anxiety.
I have to drop S off at W's condo tonight. I hate these days - especially when they are following a long weekend with him. I don't think I can tell you how much it hurts for him to be gone and for the house to be empty. He is such a presence when he is there - and we have such a good time together. When he is gone, I feel truly lonely. Barring my W issuing an invite for something I won't see him again for sure until Sunday night. He is starting to do and say such interesting little things....."Daddy! Look!" was new for this week. I can't imagine a lifetime of this. It literally makes me want to throw up.
Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.
L's assistant contacted me today to try to push back the date of our initial settlement hearing. I guess my L will be out of town. Having to begin with this stage, the "death rattle" of my marriage as I would call it, is really tough. Somewhere in my head I am still hoping for an 11th hour miracle.
Hope you are all well today.
Crimson
I have to drop S off at W's condo tonight. I hate these days - especially when they are following a long weekend with him. I don't think I can tell you how much it hurts for him to be gone and for the house to be empty. He is such a presence when he is there - and we have such a good time together. When he is gone, I feel truly lonely. Barring my W issuing an invite for something I won't see him again for sure until Sunday night. He is starting to do and say such interesting little things....."Daddy! Look!" was new for this week. I can't imagine a lifetime of this. It literally makes me want to throw up.
Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.
L's assistant contacted me today to try to push back the date of our initial settlement hearing. I guess my L will be out of town. Having to begin with this stage, the "death rattle" of my marriage as I would call it, is really tough. Somewhere in my head I am still hoping for an 11th hour miracle.
Hope you are all well today.
Crimson
Crimson-
I understand your anxiety. '11th hour miracles' do happen, I've witnessed them.
I also understand some of the 2x4 you are getting.
Focus on the things that are working--
Focus on things that you like in yourself, your 'true' self...the part of you that YOU like best.
center and breathe.
You will know what to do.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 12:18 AM
Accuray - great post and I think very true.
Most walk aways have so much pent up anger that they are like freaking ole faithful when they finally release it.
Most walk aways have so much pent up anger that they are like freaking ole faithful when they finally release it.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 12:46 AM
Thanks BklynMom, it was brutal when I went through it but in retrospect I can appreciate that it was a good thing.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 02:06 AM
Accuray (and others) -
Thank you for your insight. Part of me kind of viewed it from that lens a little bit. I mean, it literally went from having a great "no pressure" night together with her holding my arm to *KA-BOOM!!!* you are the reason all of this happened...you pushed me here....how can you not remember X, Y & Z. It really did feel as if she had a moment where she said "Wait!! I am having FUN with him - EFF that!!" and then she let me have it with both barrels the whole ride back to her condo.
Afterwards, I truly felt as though it was good that 1.) she just let it all out and 2.) I did not let my self get baited into a situation where I participated in escalating. I really wasn't mad at her when it was all over. More than anything I felt bad about my actions and myself for causing her that much pain.
The next morning I thought to myself that marriage is not solely a commitment to BE with someone, but it is you committing to being a steward of that person's feelings and interests. They literally turn their heart over to you - all in - 100%. I look back and see instances where I *unknowingly* trampled all over that commitment....selfishly, most of the time. Her reaction/words Saturday night forced into the forefront of my memory the places where I dropped the ball, violated her trust, and ignored her interests and feelings....hell, that even hurts to TYPE, let alone revisit in your mind.
I am choosing to read her explosion Saturday night and subsequent apology Sunday morning as a good thing.
Harrier - I know that I am focused on a single date in time - the divorce date. And, admittedly, I agree with you that it it merely a date in time that does not change feelings or chances at reconciliation. But I am going to go "off-page" for a second and be honest with you and everyone else. The changes that I have made and continue to make are permanent. I look back at the way that I was and and embarrassed and regretful....VERY. I do not ever want to be that person for someone else and violate trusts like noted above ^^^^. Not for my wife, or for anyone else that I may be with in the future if my M does not come back together. That is the POSITIVE of DB'ing - it tries to simultaneously help you save your M while saving yourself.
That said, I can honestly say that it is hard for me to release the significance of "divorce" as an action....though I am trying....honestly. Here's why. I, like many others, found Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy AND these boards for one singular reason: we want/wanted to save our marriages and not get divorced. After being here for the last several months I will concede the point that divorce does NOT equal the end.....reconciliation is still possible after divorce. It is the significance of the death of a relationship, of a union that hollows you out a little on the inside. In my opinion, as backwards as it may be, to say that your divorce date is merely a point in time and is not significant as "the end" is to also say that the date and act of your marriage was equally just a point in time and not significant as a "beginning". Honestly, on September 30th, 2005 my feelings for my W were no more or no less than they were at the end of the night on October 1st. Nothing had tangibly changed. HOWEVER - there was a sense of union, togetherness and the opening of a door of possibilities to fill a lifetime in front of us. It was saying to each other, God and the world that we planted a flag together on this hill and we will die on it together - as one.
So even though you are VERY correct, that it is simply a point in time - to me it signifies the "un-planting" of that flag and the death of that union. Merely symbolic? Perhaps. But hard to swallow nonetheless. The act of marrying my wife filled a void in my life - completed me in many ways. The act of divorce exposes that void once again. I WILL BE OK EITHER WAY - but I don't want to tear apart that commitment.
Cripes! - I hope that wasn't terrible of me to say and I hope you all understand my point. I will continue to fight for my wife even if she is my ex-wife. In my heart, I can't say that it doesn't matter to me. I know that it does.
Crimson
Thank you for your insight. Part of me kind of viewed it from that lens a little bit. I mean, it literally went from having a great "no pressure" night together with her holding my arm to *KA-BOOM!!!* you are the reason all of this happened...you pushed me here....how can you not remember X, Y & Z. It really did feel as if she had a moment where she said "Wait!! I am having FUN with him - EFF that!!" and then she let me have it with both barrels the whole ride back to her condo.
Afterwards, I truly felt as though it was good that 1.) she just let it all out and 2.) I did not let my self get baited into a situation where I participated in escalating. I really wasn't mad at her when it was all over. More than anything I felt bad about my actions and myself for causing her that much pain.
The next morning I thought to myself that marriage is not solely a commitment to BE with someone, but it is you committing to being a steward of that person's feelings and interests. They literally turn their heart over to you - all in - 100%. I look back and see instances where I *unknowingly* trampled all over that commitment....selfishly, most of the time. Her reaction/words Saturday night forced into the forefront of my memory the places where I dropped the ball, violated her trust, and ignored her interests and feelings....hell, that even hurts to TYPE, let alone revisit in your mind.
I am choosing to read her explosion Saturday night and subsequent apology Sunday morning as a good thing.
Harrier - I know that I am focused on a single date in time - the divorce date. And, admittedly, I agree with you that it it merely a date in time that does not change feelings or chances at reconciliation. But I am going to go "off-page" for a second and be honest with you and everyone else. The changes that I have made and continue to make are permanent. I look back at the way that I was and and embarrassed and regretful....VERY. I do not ever want to be that person for someone else and violate trusts like noted above ^^^^. Not for my wife, or for anyone else that I may be with in the future if my M does not come back together. That is the POSITIVE of DB'ing - it tries to simultaneously help you save your M while saving yourself.
That said, I can honestly say that it is hard for me to release the significance of "divorce" as an action....though I am trying....honestly. Here's why. I, like many others, found Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy AND these boards for one singular reason: we want/wanted to save our marriages and not get divorced. After being here for the last several months I will concede the point that divorce does NOT equal the end.....reconciliation is still possible after divorce. It is the significance of the death of a relationship, of a union that hollows you out a little on the inside. In my opinion, as backwards as it may be, to say that your divorce date is merely a point in time and is not significant as "the end" is to also say that the date and act of your marriage was equally just a point in time and not significant as a "beginning". Honestly, on September 30th, 2005 my feelings for my W were no more or no less than they were at the end of the night on October 1st. Nothing had tangibly changed. HOWEVER - there was a sense of union, togetherness and the opening of a door of possibilities to fill a lifetime in front of us. It was saying to each other, God and the world that we planted a flag together on this hill and we will die on it together - as one.
So even though you are VERY correct, that it is simply a point in time - to me it signifies the "un-planting" of that flag and the death of that union. Merely symbolic? Perhaps. But hard to swallow nonetheless. The act of marrying my wife filled a void in my life - completed me in many ways. The act of divorce exposes that void once again. I WILL BE OK EITHER WAY - but I don't want to tear apart that commitment.
Cripes! - I hope that wasn't terrible of me to say and I hope you all understand my point. I will continue to fight for my wife even if she is my ex-wife. In my heart, I can't say that it doesn't matter to me. I know that it does.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 03:08 AM
Wow, great post, Crimson. You really have learned so much and your words are quite profound. To hear a man talk this way about his wife and what she means to him is refreshing. Its good to know that men really do want commitment in their lives and they value the vows they made.
It really is so sad that its all too common for both husband and wife to lose themselves in a relationship. The balance of it all is a lifelong process. Trying to stay true to yourself all the while trying to have a fulfilling R with your spouse.
Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes "It takes a lifetime to learn how to live."
I'm so happy that you've made these changes and you've realized your potential. It helps me stay hopeful.
It really is so sad that its all too common for both husband and wife to lose themselves in a relationship. The balance of it all is a lifelong process. Trying to stay true to yourself all the while trying to have a fulfilling R with your spouse.
Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes "It takes a lifetime to learn how to live."
I'm so happy that you've made these changes and you've realized your potential. It helps me stay hopeful.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 02:14 PM
Thanks, JKS. Believe me, I DO believe in DB - it has done a lot of good in my situation. I have learned a lot about myself, my wife, my son, and love/relationships in general from all of this. I appreciate your kind words.
I just wish, like most, that it didn't take getting to this point to drive the lessons home. All of the things that I valued have been taken away or greatly diminished - ironically, as a result of actions I thought was protecting/building them.
Like I said, I never want to be back where I was again. Ever.
Crimson
I just wish, like most, that it didn't take getting to this point to drive the lessons home. All of the things that I valued have been taken away or greatly diminished - ironically, as a result of actions I thought was protecting/building them.
Like I said, I never want to be back where I was again. Ever.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 02:32 PM
Remember Crimson, if your W ever brings up to you wishing she could work things out, but that she feetls emotionally numb to you, do not try to explain to her about how the feelings can come back. Just validate her.
Yeah, I can totally see how you would be (scared/hesitant/whatever) to try again if you don't have feelings for me the way you would like to. I can understand why you feel numb right now from how things were between us before. I totally get that, W. It must be so hard for you to feel that way.
My W felt identically and said the same thing. Don't make the same mistake that I initially made of trying to explain to her that feelings could come back and therapists or retrouvaille could help bring the feelings back. Just validate her and be there with her.
Like I suggested before, all signs of anger and venom she launches at you are better than the closed off, non-confiding W. It means she is feeling trusting enough in that moment to open her feelings again (resentment and anger in this case, but better than closed off alien WAS) to you. And the best way you can help her work through the anger and learn to trust you again is not to be defensive, but to try to really understand where she is coming from, how she felt and feels now, and to validate her feelings.
Yeah, I can totally see how you would be (scared/hesitant/whatever) to try again if you don't have feelings for me the way you would like to. I can understand why you feel numb right now from how things were between us before. I totally get that, W. It must be so hard for you to feel that way.
My W felt identically and said the same thing. Don't make the same mistake that I initially made of trying to explain to her that feelings could come back and therapists or retrouvaille could help bring the feelings back. Just validate her and be there with her.
Like I suggested before, all signs of anger and venom she launches at you are better than the closed off, non-confiding W. It means she is feeling trusting enough in that moment to open her feelings again (resentment and anger in this case, but better than closed off alien WAS) to you. And the best way you can help her work through the anger and learn to trust you again is not to be defensive, but to try to really understand where she is coming from, how she felt and feels now, and to validate her feelings.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 02:38 PM
Crimson,
let me start of by saying I hope you don't take what I'm going to say the wrong way but here goes.
Frist of all, your old marriage is over. No question. The only question you should be really be asking is when/if does my new marriage start. You, your wife or anyone one of us do not need a piece of paper to tell us our marriages are either good or bad or on or off.
Your W "unplanted" that flag months ago. I believe at least you gave her the impression that you also wanted to end it. On the flip side, is your commitment to your wife and family only contingent on what a judge says? Of course not.
[as an aside I do think your are right. The date of your wedding is not that significant. It's some arbitrary date most of us picked - probably because it was on a Saturday. It marks no real start to a relationship. You were already committed before then to your W]
Divorce is, for the most part, a legal concept. Yet for many of us it becomes an emotional concept. We say "I don't want to get divorced" When we really mean, I don't want my relationship to end. Yes divorce does have some legal significance attached to it - that's just the reality. You can bust your "divorce" but that doesn't mean that your R is any better with your spouse. We have a number of people who are still married in the eyes of the law here who's relationships with their wives/husbands are not great.
I think one thing that is rarely talked about here is that many, many see divorce with a sense of failure. Of all the people I know that have gone through it, it is the one overriding emotion. "I failed." I think that fear of failure drives a lot of the DB efforts (it can drive our S too) more than even MWD would admit. I see that in your posts as well. You don't want to be the "divorced" guy. You don't want to have that failure - even if it meant that your W and you later reconciled.
As for your changes. Many, many people who have been in our shoes have made changes. And while they were going through the process they insisted that their changes were real and permanent. Very few are, IMO. Once they start getting what they want - the slip up, backslide, or just stop trying. I mean there are literally 1000s of examples on this board. I actually give Kudos to the people who come back here and admit they got lazy. I think most wouldn't even admit that.
You have been at this for 6 months or so. It's not a permanent change yet, in your W's eyes. It is one of the hardest things to do to make fundamental changes to one's personality. (That's not me speaking, studies back this up) it takes a long time and it's a long process. However, I don't want to devalue your effort. Every change does have a starting point. I believe you can be successful. But I believe by focusing on dates, documents, etc. it does take your focus off that. That's why I harp on this point to you.
let me start of by saying I hope you don't take what I'm going to say the wrong way but here goes.
Frist of all, your old marriage is over. No question. The only question you should be really be asking is when/if does my new marriage start. You, your wife or anyone one of us do not need a piece of paper to tell us our marriages are either good or bad or on or off.
Your W "unplanted" that flag months ago. I believe at least you gave her the impression that you also wanted to end it. On the flip side, is your commitment to your wife and family only contingent on what a judge says? Of course not.
[as an aside I do think your are right. The date of your wedding is not that significant. It's some arbitrary date most of us picked - probably because it was on a Saturday. It marks no real start to a relationship. You were already committed before then to your W]
Divorce is, for the most part, a legal concept. Yet for many of us it becomes an emotional concept. We say "I don't want to get divorced" When we really mean, I don't want my relationship to end. Yes divorce does have some legal significance attached to it - that's just the reality. You can bust your "divorce" but that doesn't mean that your R is any better with your spouse. We have a number of people who are still married in the eyes of the law here who's relationships with their wives/husbands are not great.
I think one thing that is rarely talked about here is that many, many see divorce with a sense of failure. Of all the people I know that have gone through it, it is the one overriding emotion. "I failed." I think that fear of failure drives a lot of the DB efforts (it can drive our S too) more than even MWD would admit. I see that in your posts as well. You don't want to be the "divorced" guy. You don't want to have that failure - even if it meant that your W and you later reconciled.
As for your changes. Many, many people who have been in our shoes have made changes. And while they were going through the process they insisted that their changes were real and permanent. Very few are, IMO. Once they start getting what they want - the slip up, backslide, or just stop trying. I mean there are literally 1000s of examples on this board. I actually give Kudos to the people who come back here and admit they got lazy. I think most wouldn't even admit that.
You have been at this for 6 months or so. It's not a permanent change yet, in your W's eyes. It is one of the hardest things to do to make fundamental changes to one's personality. (That's not me speaking, studies back this up) it takes a long time and it's a long process. However, I don't want to devalue your effort. Every change does have a starting point. I believe you can be successful. But I believe by focusing on dates, documents, etc. it does take your focus off that. That's why I harp on this point to you.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 03:42 PM
Nah, man - I'm not taking it the wrong way at all. I see what you are saying and I don't really disagree with you wildly at all.
I have known that my old marriage is dead and gone. In a manner of speaking I am HAPPY about that. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the course it was taking was unsustainable.
If I really dig at the heart of the matter for me, I think you are right - I (on some level) struggle with the concept of failure - that was elaborated on months ago in an old thread. I don't think it's me struggling with the concept of being "the divorced guy". Rather, the concept that life with me as so unfulfilling that my wife decided to leave. THAT thought, although no longer in the forefront of my mind, still grinds away in the very far back.
Furthermore, and I will be very honest here, D means my wife is free to go be with someone else. Granted, she could do that NOW if she really wanted to - but post-divorce it is acceptable both legally and societally. I FULLY ACCEPT THAT THIS IS MY HANG-UP - and I am creating it for myself and need to stop. Just hard to break that train of thought.
Also, I know that I am in the infancy of my changes and probably have some kind of hyper-exuberance around them and being dedicated to them. I just don't think I could go back to where I was given all that it has cost me right now. That is a VERY valuable "don't touch the hot stove" lesson. You go through it once - hopefully. If anything is going to drive a fundamental change to MY life and default behaviors and personality - I don't see how it's not this. Harrier, this is the hardest thing I have ever gone through emotionally and I hold myself accountable for my part in it....often times ALL of it. Regardless of where I land, I will never want to be HERE again - and if that means hard changes to my behavior - so be it.
Crimson
I have known that my old marriage is dead and gone. In a manner of speaking I am HAPPY about that. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the course it was taking was unsustainable.
If I really dig at the heart of the matter for me, I think you are right - I (on some level) struggle with the concept of failure - that was elaborated on months ago in an old thread. I don't think it's me struggling with the concept of being "the divorced guy". Rather, the concept that life with me as so unfulfilling that my wife decided to leave. THAT thought, although no longer in the forefront of my mind, still grinds away in the very far back.
Furthermore, and I will be very honest here, D means my wife is free to go be with someone else. Granted, she could do that NOW if she really wanted to - but post-divorce it is acceptable both legally and societally. I FULLY ACCEPT THAT THIS IS MY HANG-UP - and I am creating it for myself and need to stop. Just hard to break that train of thought.
Also, I know that I am in the infancy of my changes and probably have some kind of hyper-exuberance around them and being dedicated to them. I just don't think I could go back to where I was given all that it has cost me right now. That is a VERY valuable "don't touch the hot stove" lesson. You go through it once - hopefully. If anything is going to drive a fundamental change to MY life and default behaviors and personality - I don't see how it's not this. Harrier, this is the hardest thing I have ever gone through emotionally and I hold myself accountable for my part in it....often times ALL of it. Regardless of where I land, I will never want to be HERE again - and if that means hard changes to my behavior - so be it.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 08:08 PM
Crimson
so you concede you wanted the "old" marriage to end, and it has. It has already ended.
Divorce papers would merely formalize that.
You say you want a new better marriage...that you are different man. Okay so you need to lose the baggage YOU attach to the divorce papers
I'd feel differently if she were not also saying things like she wants to work it out....I believe her. I think this is what will make her feel most safe, relatively.
If the divorce goes thru and you are still the new Crimson,
the truly changed man, for real,
then what FEARS can hold her back then?
I submit, none.
There are MANY positives in your sitch, even if you don't end up reconciling.
But if I were a betting woman, I'd bet you will.
so you concede you wanted the "old" marriage to end, and it has. It has already ended.
Divorce papers would merely formalize that.
You say you want a new better marriage...that you are different man. Okay so you need to lose the baggage YOU attach to the divorce papers
I'd feel differently if she were not also saying things like she wants to work it out....I believe her. I think this is what will make her feel most safe, relatively.
If the divorce goes thru and you are still the new Crimson,
the truly changed man, for real,
then what FEARS can hold her back then?
I submit, none.
There are MANY positives in your sitch, even if you don't end up reconciling.
But if I were a betting woman, I'd bet you will.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 08:33 PM
Man - I see this yesterday, and it was new thread with three replies. Cool, I think, I can get back up to speed and keep up with that. I check it today and there's 22. Which means lots of good advice, Crimson... and from what I can gather in trying to keep up, sounds like a fair amount to keep your chin up about...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 10:16 PM
25 - All good points. The actual D is a hang-up for me, though relative to where I am right now it quite literally changes little to nothing. I just have to get over the symbolism of it and try to view it as merely a legal proceeding. Sadly, I still read it as w saying "no way in hell I want to be with you!". Trying to get over that....ego talking, if I'm being honest.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/11/12 10:16 PM
....BTW, 25 - I am still waiting for you to answer the "how to I court without freaking her out" question....
Crimson
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/12/12 12:48 AM
Hell GM, I don't know. Maybe? I guess that's why I posed the question in the first place.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/12/12 01:17 AM
I would drop the idea of 'courting' her. When you are 'courting' her, you're not letting go and not detaching.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/12/12 01:57 AM
Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23
My suggestion is to not act like you are courting her.
She did say a little over a week ago she is going through with the d.
Courting kind of takes 2 parties.
So, I wouldn't think in terms of courting her. But that's just me. Others may have a different opinion.
The idea of courting does in fact freak her out. It freaks you out too, but in a different way .Just go about your business. If she expresses any interest in doing something date like go along with it, but casually.
I wouldn't initiate anything yourself. Not now.
She did say a little over a week ago she is going through with the d.
Courting kind of takes 2 parties.
So, I wouldn't think in terms of courting her. But that's just me. Others may have a different opinion.
The idea of courting does in fact freak her out. It freaks you out too, but in a different way .Just go about your business. If she expresses any interest in doing something date like go along with it, but casually.
I wouldn't initiate anything yourself. Not now.
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. To ME, your w's comments strongly suggest that a huge part of her, FEARS your changes are not real or lasting. That if she lets her guard down, you will revert. & She may not have the strength to leave again...
She fears opening her heart up to you again. You know the reasons - I posted them to you once or twice, at length. (Remember the post MANY threads ago, about a WAW writing to an LBS h b/c he didn't get why his w would not return after a few months of change on his part.)
So if she withdraws the D papers, she'll be taking a huge leap of faith Without knowing if your changes will last.
She is clearly NOT ready to do that.
And she does not see the past the same way you do.
I DO recall a thread of resentment and self righteousness in your original posts about you "generously" getting her a bed (emphasis mine) and you having all of the other things in the home
and her having to ask you for them, when in fact, legally she was entitled to half anyway. But back then, you were mad at her "for taking stuff"...if I recall correctly.
Things are in motion that suggest she is willing to give YOU time to see where this new you goes...but she's not willing to take the leap of faith YET.
If you reconcile, you'll BOTH be taking a leap of faith, like all of us here who ever marry or choose to love.
I'm saying stick it out. Act as if you know the old m died, SO the papers are "papers/schmapers" and
maybe the papers IF they come - ought to symbolize the end and death of the old you...
no matter what. Once you are both "Free" to breathe and not have to be "right" or make it by a certain date "to win"
then you see each other when you do-with your s, (but without YOU being the one to suggest "dates" YET being warm to her suggestions for them, if you are)
then time will tell. She experiences anguish every time you two swap your son...she wants another child...
you have some things going in your favor that are HUGE...
Time will reveal a lot, if you are watching.
Make sense?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/12/12 05:57 PM
Makes complete sense - just something that I have to brace for if/when it goes that far.
Ever since the e-mail from last week I think I all but suspended any formal "courting" activities. I have even tried to pull back on my iitiating any conversation - which, admittedly, is difficult. I would love to be able to see my son this weekend, but I am not going to make any suggestions or impose myself on her schedule - whatever it may be.
She DID call me last night via Skype and I got to interact with my S while he was getting his bath - even got to read him a bedtime story. I thanked her for that - it really helped me get over the pain of missing him. Again - we seem to be getting along just fine these days. Maybe it's the marital equivalent of calming a chicken down before you chop off its head - I don't know.
So to clarirfy - and I am not being defensive - just want to do a better job explaining - when w moved out I did not impede or restrict her from taking half of what was legally hers (including MORE than half of the money we had combined in savings). As a community property state, all of the property I owned PRIOR to getting married was labeled "sole and separate" and could not be divided - same with HER propery prior to the marriage. As she was leaving, there were MAJOR things (furniture, etc.) that were mine prior to marriage that she wanted to take and I said "no". THAT was the point of contention. All of the community property that we shared we split 50/50. Anything that was classified as such that she asked for I handed over without argument.
NONE of this ^^^^^^ matters right now because we are long past that stage. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to horde or deny her things she was entitled to legally.
Ever since the e-mail from last week I think I all but suspended any formal "courting" activities. I have even tried to pull back on my iitiating any conversation - which, admittedly, is difficult. I would love to be able to see my son this weekend, but I am not going to make any suggestions or impose myself on her schedule - whatever it may be.
She DID call me last night via Skype and I got to interact with my S while he was getting his bath - even got to read him a bedtime story. I thanked her for that - it really helped me get over the pain of missing him. Again - we seem to be getting along just fine these days. Maybe it's the marital equivalent of calming a chicken down before you chop off its head - I don't know.
So to clarirfy - and I am not being defensive - just want to do a better job explaining - when w moved out I did not impede or restrict her from taking half of what was legally hers (including MORE than half of the money we had combined in savings). As a community property state, all of the property I owned PRIOR to getting married was labeled "sole and separate" and could not be divided - same with HER propery prior to the marriage. As she was leaving, there were MAJOR things (furniture, etc.) that were mine prior to marriage that she wanted to take and I said "no". THAT was the point of contention. All of the community property that we shared we split 50/50. Anything that was classified as such that she asked for I handed over without argument.
NONE of this ^^^^^^ matters right now because we are long past that stage. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to horde or deny her things she was entitled to legally.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 12:06 AM
okay point noted...
my recall was more about your reaction at the time. And I think I asked you if she wasn't entitled to half of the things anyhow but you did not mention (then, or at least I don't recall it) that you had a lot of previously acquired stuff.
Do you get what I'm saying about "courting"? I think I used the wrong word. I mean that old equation-
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
Just do what you had been doing that worked (& having expectations did NOT work) and don't do what doesn't help.
Don't revert or appear to, IF the papers are finalized or all this work will look tactical and will confirm her fears.
Again, in the long run, you have a son together you both treasure, SHE Would love another child...and you have an edge there too....
so if you keep the changes permanent, and those other things remain in your favor...stay the course.
my recall was more about your reaction at the time. And I think I asked you if she wasn't entitled to half of the things anyhow but you did not mention (then, or at least I don't recall it) that you had a lot of previously acquired stuff.
Do you get what I'm saying about "courting"? I think I used the wrong word. I mean that old equation-
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
Just do what you had been doing that worked (& having expectations did NOT work) and don't do what doesn't help.
Don't revert or appear to, IF the papers are finalized or all this work will look tactical and will confirm her fears.
Again, in the long run, you have a son together you both treasure, SHE Would love another child...and you have an edge there too....
so if you keep the changes permanent, and those other things remain in your favor...stay the course.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 02:13 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Again, in the long run, you have a son together you both treasure, SHE Would love another child...and you have an edge there too....
so if you keep the changes permanent, and those other things remain in your favor...stay the course.
Thank you, 25 and others. Slowly but surely trying to get to a place where I am OK with whatever the outcome is.
Regarding what you said above ^^^^ - why is it that I don't feel too much like the two of us having a son that we adore and BOTH of us wanting another child really helps me much? I guess I say that because I haven't seen how it has helped that much at all thus far. Maybe it will it time, but I am always reminded that I am not the sole course to baby #2 for her. IDK, maybe I am being excessively negative here - but I still look at the fact that despite the fact we have a child together, despite the fact that we have been getting along well, despite the fact that I think she is at least SOMEWHAT aware of the changes I am working on - she still would elect to spend time away from our S than trust me again. Time may help that - and that it yet to be seen.
25, you Sandi and others have been very right about a lot if things that I was totally in the dark about. I can only hope that your more objective lenses paired with your experiences seeing schlubs like me come and go on this board offset the occasional hopelessness I feel.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 02:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
.... despite the fact we have a child together, despite the fact that we have been getting along well, despite the fact that I think she is at least SOMEWHAT aware of the changes I am working on - she still would elect to spend time away from our S than trust me again.
That should tell you how much despair and pain she was in for years and years.
Instead of focusing on yourself, look at it from her side.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 03:46 PM
Quote:
why is it that I don't feel too much like the two of us having a son that we adore and BOTH of us wanting another child really helps me much? I guess I say that because I haven't seen how it has helped that much at all thus far.
Just because it's a draw to you, a reason to come back. She didn't want this either, doesn't want to share custody time, and she probably doesn't prefer her S to have a "half" sibling.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 03:49 PM
You are terribly right, Harrier. It really does put into grim perspective the depth of what she must have been feeling - and on some level continues to feel. I can't think of too many things that are worse that being away from my son for 5 days at a time - it really tells me how much she must fear reverting back to a crappy relationship with me.
The irony that all of the hurt that I was inflicting was done while I thought I was being a good husband is not wasted on me at all. Live and learn.
I hear here that time is what it takes....and time is what I have.
Crimson
The irony that all of the hurt that I was inflicting was done while I thought I was being a good husband is not wasted on me at all. Live and learn.
I hear here that time is what it takes....and time is what I have.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 05:42 PM
I think there is also an element of the WAS punishing themselves. I think in some ways they feels so guilty that they are self inflicting more pain to themselves as a punishment for the sin they are committing. There is no way your W isnt in pain when she is separated from your little boy for a few days at a time... impossible.
How do we show them that it doesnt have to be this way??
How do we show them that it doesnt have to be this way??
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 06:05 PM
Crimson,
you wrote
"why is it that I don't feel too much like the two of us having a son that we adore and BOTH of us wanting another child really helps me much? I guess I say that because I haven't seen how it has helped that much at all thus far."
You Don't see how it has helped you thus far AT ALL? Seriously?
The fact that she's inviting you places, spends time with you, is talking with you and is even considering a relationship with you that might lead to a reconciliation,
the fact that there is ANY hope after so much damage over such a long period of time...are some of the reasons I see it.
THAT cannot be lost on you.
If it is, then I"d work a lot harder on using a better, clearer and more positive lense with which to view the world/life.
Honestly, Crimson, you seem like an honorable man but I have to know
-- are you like this with THEM? Are you mawkish and morose, just seeing the glass is half empty, b/c it's not filled to the brim?
B/C Crimson Buddy, I have to tell you that is a big DRAG to be around...and a lot of self fulfilling prophecies come true that way. So Knock it off.
Whatever it takes, start thinking and acting more positively. PRay if that is what it takes or say affirmations or do something to shake up your perspective b/c it sukks.
Work on THAT trait and your life will get a lot better.
((( )))
you wrote
"why is it that I don't feel too much like the two of us having a son that we adore and BOTH of us wanting another child really helps me much? I guess I say that because I haven't seen how it has helped that much at all thus far."
You Don't see how it has helped you thus far AT ALL? Seriously?
The fact that she's inviting you places, spends time with you, is talking with you and is even considering a relationship with you that might lead to a reconciliation,
the fact that there is ANY hope after so much damage over such a long period of time...are some of the reasons I see it.
THAT cannot be lost on you.
If it is, then I"d work a lot harder on using a better, clearer and more positive lense with which to view the world/life.
Honestly, Crimson, you seem like an honorable man but I have to know
-- are you like this with THEM? Are you mawkish and morose, just seeing the glass is half empty, b/c it's not filled to the brim?
B/C Crimson Buddy, I have to tell you that is a big DRAG to be around...and a lot of self fulfilling prophecies come true that way. So Knock it off.
Whatever it takes, start thinking and acting more positively. PRay if that is what it takes or say affirmations or do something to shake up your perspective b/c it sukks.
Work on THAT trait and your life will get a lot better.
((( )))
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 06:33 PM
Crimson - 25 makes a very valid point about you not seeing all the positives in your sitch. I asked this the other day... Is it foggy where you live?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 06:51 PM
I think I have a natural tendency to tamp down any enthusiasm to keep from getting crushed through disappointment. Just being honest.
For example - in my mind when I have custody of my son my W asks to do things so she can see HIM - not me. In a manner of speaking, I see myself as the "poison pill" she has to swallow just to see him on the days she doesn't have him. In my HEART I want to think that it because she wants to be around the both of us and enjoy the feeling of being a family. But then I think "well, she could have that any time she wanted and chooses not to, so clearly that's not it". Please do not think I am labeling this as "healthy" or "OK" - I know it's not.
For example - in my mind when I have custody of my son my W asks to do things so she can see HIM - not me. In a manner of speaking, I see myself as the "poison pill" she has to swallow just to see him on the days she doesn't have him. In my HEART I want to think that it because she wants to be around the both of us and enjoy the feeling of being a family. But then I think "well, she could have that any time she wanted and chooses not to, so clearly that's not it". Please do not think I am labeling this as "healthy" or "OK" - I know it's not.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 08:03 PM
BTW, 2TP. I get what you're saying. And I DO see positive elements swirled into the mix of my situation. I just don't see those individual elements binding together to nudge my w in a direction back to the R just yet. At times I feel like she is evaluating it on one level or another - but always concludes that she is better off where she is. This could change, and I hope that it does.
Crimson
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 10:08 PM
It would help if you would stop measuring EVERYTHING against whether it does or doesn't cause a reconciliation.
Live in the moment. If it's a good interaction with your W, why are you negating it because you don't think her motivation was the one you wanted?
Each positive interaction you have with your W is a good thing, whether you stay married, get divorced, whatever. Appreciate what you have to appreciate.
If you could completely let go of the idea that you're going to reconcile, I think you'd be doing yourself and your situation a favor.
Live in the moment. If it's a good interaction with your W, why are you negating it because you don't think her motivation was the one you wanted?
Each positive interaction you have with your W is a good thing, whether you stay married, get divorced, whatever. Appreciate what you have to appreciate.
If you could completely let go of the idea that you're going to reconcile, I think you'd be doing yourself and your situation a favor.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 10:41 PM
Yep
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/13/12 11:24 PM
OMG Crimson are you are asking for a 2 x 4? Okay here comes....!!
Originally Posted By: Crimson
I think I have a natural tendency to tamp down any enthusiasm to keep from getting crushed through disappointment.
Why on earth do you think having a crappy attitude in life and "tamping down" on joy--
HELPS YOU in any way? Can't you see that You bring about the things you nost fear!!
Plus you are much less happy WHILE you wait for the other shoe to drop...which might not ever. And how does waiting for it, expecting it and possibly bringing it about, make it less painful IF it does happen?
Your beliefs about negative projecting somehow being a protection for you-
are false!
Just being honest.
For example - in my mind when I have custody of my son my W asks to do things so she can see HIM - not me. In a manner of speaking, I see myself as the "poison pill" she has to swallow just to see him on the days she doesn't have him.
wow that ^^^ sounds super attractive. I know I LOVE spending time with men who think I secretly recoil at their presence....sends out a sexy vibe...
Confidence in a man IS sexy. Not a cocky jerk but a man who knows he's being his best self and knows what he brings to the table is damn good.
That has to be YOU. So
believe it so you can radiate it...and she'll gravitate to it.
In my HEART I want to think that it because she wants to be around the both of us and enjoy the feeling of being a family. But then I think "well, she could have that any time she wanted and chooses not to, so clearly that's not it". Please do not think I am labeling this as "healthy" or "OK" - I know it's not.
Why on earth do you think having a crappy attitude in life and "tamping down" on joy--
HELPS YOU in any way? Can't you see that You bring about the things you nost fear!!
Plus you are much less happy WHILE you wait for the other shoe to drop...which might not ever. And how does waiting for it, expecting it and possibly bringing it about, make it less painful IF it does happen?
Your beliefs about negative projecting somehow being a protection for you-
are false!
Just being honest.
For example - in my mind when I have custody of my son my W asks to do things so she can see HIM - not me. In a manner of speaking, I see myself as the "poison pill" she has to swallow just to see him on the days she doesn't have him.
wow that ^^^ sounds super attractive. I know I LOVE spending time with men who think I secretly recoil at their presence....sends out a sexy vibe...
Confidence in a man IS sexy. Not a cocky jerk but a man who knows he's being his best self and knows what he brings to the table is damn good.
That has to be YOU. So
believe it so you can radiate it...and she'll gravitate to it.
In my HEART I want to think that it because she wants to be around the both of us and enjoy the feeling of being a family. But then I think "well, she could have that any time she wanted and chooses not to, so clearly that's not it". Please do not think I am labeling this as "healthy" or "OK" - I know it's not.
well I think I've said enough. I hope this shakes you up in a good way b/c though I am teasing you - I'm making a real point too.
Make sense?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/14/12 03:18 PM
Crimson so many times on your thread I hear people give you wise feedback and you come back with "yes but..." and explain that that's just how you are and blah blah blah. This time please listen with an open mind!
You have shown through this an incredible capacity to be brave, patient, understanding, to take a harsh look at yourself and make changes...to get your wife back. But the bottom line is you were able to do these things. Now try doing them...just because you can. You know you can, and you don't need getting your wife back as an excuse anymore.
If she's gone forever, do you want to be a cowering wimpy negative-ist, tearing your hopes and dreams down pre-emptively so you won't be hurt when life tears them down? Or do you want to take the things you've learned so far and just be them because that's who you are now.
(I understand. I've done a lot of protecting myself by shooting myself in the foot. If you don't try you can't fail. If you push people away they can't reject you. Etc. Just because it's understandable doesn't make it ok. You can do better, you've shown that.)
You have shown through this an incredible capacity to be brave, patient, understanding, to take a harsh look at yourself and make changes...to get your wife back. But the bottom line is you were able to do these things. Now try doing them...just because you can. You know you can, and you don't need getting your wife back as an excuse anymore.
If she's gone forever, do you want to be a cowering wimpy negative-ist, tearing your hopes and dreams down pre-emptively so you won't be hurt when life tears them down? Or do you want to take the things you've learned so far and just be them because that's who you are now.
(I understand. I've done a lot of protecting myself by shooting myself in the foot. If you don't try you can't fail. If you push people away they can't reject you. Etc. Just because it's understandable doesn't make it ok. You can do better, you've shown that.)
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/15/12 11:43 PM
Hi folks -
Been spending the weekend laying low and not really posting anything. Went back and re-read a bunch of posts (mine and others) and tried to chew on all of the good advice and perspective they all contained.
It's been a fairly emotional weekend, being lost in thought and all. Was hoping that I would have a chance to see my son, but that didn't pan out. Haven't been able to give him a squeeze since Tuesday - I'll tell you, those 5-day stretches are HARSH.
I DID manage to make it out with friends on Friday and Saturday night. Just meeting up for cocktails and good conversation. Went to a blues bar last night for some great live music - was really a lot of fun.
More importantly, and this probably means bupkis to many others, but I went out both Friday and Saturday night and left my phone at home.....on purpose. That is a big deal for me on a bunch of fronts. It's a big 180 for me as w always thought I was too plugged in...I have really done my best the last few months to correct that. Additionally, it keeps me in the moment and prevents me from checking to see if my w texted or called. Kind of nice, actually, to be separated from it.
I'm really sorry if I came across rather Eyore-like last week. Academically, I know that for all intents and purposes I'm ALREADY divorced. The paperwork is merely red tape at this point. I know that I will be OK - just trying to get focused emotionally. Had a minor breakdown today after church - whole message was about relationships, forgiveness and working things out. Sadly, w wasn't there this week. On the drive home I really started to get down on being a part-time parent. My son brings me so much joy and happiness - especially at a time when I need it the most. Not seeing him really gets to me, but I try to remember that my W needs him, too and I can't keep him to myself.
I didn't hear much from my W this weekend at all. She had a friend and her 11 year old son with her all of last week through yesterday. I figure she was tired - she had to share the room with our son and he doesn't sleep well for her a lot of the time.
25 - I found and read that post by thatgirl to Denver about why she, as a WAW, was in no big rush to buy into changes and take him back after a few months of change. I see a lot of my wife in that for sure. That night several weeks ago when we had that long convo on her front porch she said (rough estimate of her quote, here) "I do not want to go back to the way things were". Basically saying at all costs she would rather give up everything than drift back to what she felt she left. Based on everything I have read here that is pretty much textbook WAW.
Man, I feel so terrible for putting her through that much hurt. I literally was clueless and had no idea I was doing that much damage to someone I loved that much. Just clueless. Anyone that knows me well knows that I am not a cruel, deliberately hurtful person. Far from it, I would say. To know that my actions pushed my WIFE away from me and cost me so much time with my son is almost unbearable.
During that talk on her porch she said that she has forgiven me. She's said that a few times, now. Forgiven, but I don't think she has gotten over it. As many say, that will take time.
Adinva - I see your point about "If you could completely let go of the idea that you're going to reconcile, I think you'd be doing yourself and your situation a favor". It's hard for me to do that, because I equate that with giving up all hope. Is that a false correlation on my part? If so, I really don't understand. Perhaps I am hopelessly dense.
Crimson
Been spending the weekend laying low and not really posting anything. Went back and re-read a bunch of posts (mine and others) and tried to chew on all of the good advice and perspective they all contained.
It's been a fairly emotional weekend, being lost in thought and all. Was hoping that I would have a chance to see my son, but that didn't pan out. Haven't been able to give him a squeeze since Tuesday - I'll tell you, those 5-day stretches are HARSH.
I DID manage to make it out with friends on Friday and Saturday night. Just meeting up for cocktails and good conversation. Went to a blues bar last night for some great live music - was really a lot of fun.
More importantly, and this probably means bupkis to many others, but I went out both Friday and Saturday night and left my phone at home.....on purpose. That is a big deal for me on a bunch of fronts. It's a big 180 for me as w always thought I was too plugged in...I have really done my best the last few months to correct that. Additionally, it keeps me in the moment and prevents me from checking to see if my w texted or called. Kind of nice, actually, to be separated from it.
I'm really sorry if I came across rather Eyore-like last week. Academically, I know that for all intents and purposes I'm ALREADY divorced. The paperwork is merely red tape at this point. I know that I will be OK - just trying to get focused emotionally. Had a minor breakdown today after church - whole message was about relationships, forgiveness and working things out. Sadly, w wasn't there this week. On the drive home I really started to get down on being a part-time parent. My son brings me so much joy and happiness - especially at a time when I need it the most. Not seeing him really gets to me, but I try to remember that my W needs him, too and I can't keep him to myself.
I didn't hear much from my W this weekend at all. She had a friend and her 11 year old son with her all of last week through yesterday. I figure she was tired - she had to share the room with our son and he doesn't sleep well for her a lot of the time.
25 - I found and read that post by thatgirl to Denver about why she, as a WAW, was in no big rush to buy into changes and take him back after a few months of change. I see a lot of my wife in that for sure. That night several weeks ago when we had that long convo on her front porch she said (rough estimate of her quote, here) "I do not want to go back to the way things were". Basically saying at all costs she would rather give up everything than drift back to what she felt she left. Based on everything I have read here that is pretty much textbook WAW.
Man, I feel so terrible for putting her through that much hurt. I literally was clueless and had no idea I was doing that much damage to someone I loved that much. Just clueless. Anyone that knows me well knows that I am not a cruel, deliberately hurtful person. Far from it, I would say. To know that my actions pushed my WIFE away from me and cost me so much time with my son is almost unbearable.
During that talk on her porch she said that she has forgiven me. She's said that a few times, now. Forgiven, but I don't think she has gotten over it. As many say, that will take time.
Adinva - I see your point about "If you could completely let go of the idea that you're going to reconcile, I think you'd be doing yourself and your situation a favor". It's hard for me to do that, because I equate that with giving up all hope. Is that a false correlation on my part? If so, I really don't understand. Perhaps I am hopelessly dense.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 03:56 PM
So, just gonna toss a question out there to the board to help get an opinion. I find myself in one of those circumstances where I am not sure if my initial reaction to something is "right". Strike that. I KNOW my initial reaction isn't right - I just don't know the best way TO react or respond.
So when I got to work this morning, W sent me an e-mail. The tone was very friendly but I think it was to sweeten something that she probably knew I wouldn't react well to. She booked a trip for her and s to go visit a friend in Berkley the first week of June. Bought the tickets, done deal. I cringe a little bit on the inside because typically in our circumstance if you are taking a child out of the state you have to ask permission of the other parent first. Furthermore, she booked the trip through part of my custody time. Returning on a Monday when I am supposed to get him Sunday by 5:00 PM. She said she got a great deal so she wanted to take it. Never contacted me, never let me know.
Lastly, and I know this is a minor thing and more about "me" than anything else - I told her awhile ago that I wanted to be there when he saw the ocean for the first time. Just felt that it would be a really special moment. I guess I can always try to book some time in front her trip - but I hate to feel rushed.
So - here is how OLD Crimson would have responded:
"I am fine with you taking him, but I am not OK with you taking one of my days without asking me first. I also thought that before you left the state you needed the permission of the other parent. I wish you would have at least talked to me about this first. It makes me feel like you have no respect or consideration for me as a parent."
Whereas I feel that the RIGHT thing to say right now is:
"That sounds like a great trip for you two - I am sure you are going to have a lot of fun him and your friends! It's a great opportunity for him to see that part of the country, and I know you've wanted to visit for awhile."
I see this as a chance to do a 180 beacause I feel as if she is sitting at her computer right now cringing as she waits for me to reply. But it that a 180 or being a door mat? In the BIG picture - losing one day with him isn't a big deal - neither is leaving the state....ditto on blowing the chance to see him see the ocean for the first time. Does she feel that comfortable that she doesn't see asking me as necessary? Or does she just not give a sh*t about me as a parent? Or is it something else?
I KNOW that I can't react the way that old Crimson would have - that is stupid and I know where that ends. I just don't know what to say. Should I even voice my unhappiness? Would that do more harm that good? Is remaining silent setting the tone for this to happen again?
Help me check my ego here.....I am still learning.
Crimson
So when I got to work this morning, W sent me an e-mail. The tone was very friendly but I think it was to sweeten something that she probably knew I wouldn't react well to. She booked a trip for her and s to go visit a friend in Berkley the first week of June. Bought the tickets, done deal. I cringe a little bit on the inside because typically in our circumstance if you are taking a child out of the state you have to ask permission of the other parent first. Furthermore, she booked the trip through part of my custody time. Returning on a Monday when I am supposed to get him Sunday by 5:00 PM. She said she got a great deal so she wanted to take it. Never contacted me, never let me know.
Lastly, and I know this is a minor thing and more about "me" than anything else - I told her awhile ago that I wanted to be there when he saw the ocean for the first time. Just felt that it would be a really special moment. I guess I can always try to book some time in front her trip - but I hate to feel rushed.
So - here is how OLD Crimson would have responded:
"I am fine with you taking him, but I am not OK with you taking one of my days without asking me first. I also thought that before you left the state you needed the permission of the other parent. I wish you would have at least talked to me about this first. It makes me feel like you have no respect or consideration for me as a parent."
Whereas I feel that the RIGHT thing to say right now is:
"That sounds like a great trip for you two - I am sure you are going to have a lot of fun him and your friends! It's a great opportunity for him to see that part of the country, and I know you've wanted to visit for awhile."
I see this as a chance to do a 180 beacause I feel as if she is sitting at her computer right now cringing as she waits for me to reply. But it that a 180 or being a door mat? In the BIG picture - losing one day with him isn't a big deal - neither is leaving the state....ditto on blowing the chance to see him see the ocean for the first time. Does she feel that comfortable that she doesn't see asking me as necessary? Or does she just not give a sh*t about me as a parent? Or is it something else?
I KNOW that I can't react the way that old Crimson would have - that is stupid and I know where that ends. I just don't know what to say. Should I even voice my unhappiness? Would that do more harm that good? Is remaining silent setting the tone for this to happen again?
Help me check my ego here.....I am still learning.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 04:02 PM
Be ok with it this time. Assume it is nothing about you and her attitude towards you. Tell her to have fun and to please take and send you pictures.
Later you can review custody arrangements when there is an opportunity to do so under normal conditions.
Just my opinion, of course.....
Later you can review custody arrangements when there is an opportunity to do so under normal conditions.
Just my opinion, of course.....
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 04:10 PM
I'm not going to give advice on this one, because my H and I had YEARS of that with his EX, and I don't think I can offer untainted advice. It was miserable, and she was just a mean and vindictive thing (I won't insult the term "woman" by referring to her that way.) I just want to say that I COMPLETELY get your feelings on this. I felt that way many times, and the kids were just my steps. Yours is a very difficult sitch because you don't know if you will ever get back together, and you won't want to have to deal with her jacking around with the schedule all the time if you don't. That's why divorce decrees have a parenting plan. Blech!!!
I have to say that you are doing WONDERFUL even contemplating a very positive response to her. It's probably the right thing to do, but I'll defer to the others on this one.
Stay strong!
I have to say that you are doing WONDERFUL even contemplating a very positive response to her. It's probably the right thing to do, but I'll defer to the others on this one.
Stay strong!
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 04:24 PM
When responding to your W, Crimson... why would you attach ANY emotion as part of the text of your response...?
Are you interested in continuing to show your W that you might be... or actually ARE BEING... attached to your W...?
Both responses appear the same.
You are OK with your W taking your S on the trip...
If that's the case, then a simple, "That works for me" would suffice...
But if you are NOT OK with her having booked on your time... how would that benefit you for not saying something about it?
Or...
Change your frame...
Be OK with her booking on your time...
Which of THOSE would be a 180?
And which of those would you be willing to live with? That you want... as part of who you will always be...?
Are you interested in continuing to show your W that you might be... or actually ARE BEING... attached to your W...?
Both responses appear the same.
You are OK with your W taking your S on the trip...
If that's the case, then a simple, "That works for me" would suffice...
But if you are NOT OK with her having booked on your time... how would that benefit you for not saying something about it?
Or...
Change your frame...
Be OK with her booking on your time...
Which of THOSE would be a 180?
And which of those would you be willing to live with? That you want... as part of who you will always be...?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 05:39 PM
Thanks for the replies, guys (and girls!). Still haven't responded yet.
KD - to answer your question, my w always takes short, formal replies from as as "cold" or potentially mean. That is based on how I typically speak or respond. E-mail not being the richest medium through which to communicate (no body language, tone, inflection, etc.) I try to be a bit more aware of what I type - not just with W, but everyone these days - based on some feedbeck from friends and co-workers.
Your other question - if I am not ok with her booking my time. The benefit there for me would be purely the 180 (as I see it). Not giving her what she EXPECTS from me in a negative reaction. Not starting an argument over something that I perceive she did "wrong".
Your suggestion of changing my frame is a wise one. Probably the best thing to do.
I don't think that any "negative" reaction would be a good thing right now. Sure, my heart hurts a little that they will be going without me - but I can handle it and I am not letting that color my reaction.
Crimson
KD - to answer your question, my w always takes short, formal replies from as as "cold" or potentially mean. That is based on how I typically speak or respond. E-mail not being the richest medium through which to communicate (no body language, tone, inflection, etc.) I try to be a bit more aware of what I type - not just with W, but everyone these days - based on some feedbeck from friends and co-workers.
Your other question - if I am not ok with her booking my time. The benefit there for me would be purely the 180 (as I see it). Not giving her what she EXPECTS from me in a negative reaction. Not starting an argument over something that I perceive she did "wrong".
Your suggestion of changing my frame is a wise one. Probably the best thing to do.
I don't think that any "negative" reaction would be a good thing right now. Sure, my heart hurts a little that they will be going without me - but I can handle it and I am not letting that color my reaction.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 05:52 PM
One thing that I've learned over the years and had (ample; ugh) opportunity to remember... is that one person's "take" from a conversation, is that person's choice...
IOW, it does appear and I believe psychologists agree, that short, perhaps terse language can be taken as cold or mean...
Responding with words like "fine" or "OK" or "no problem" can activate negative triggers and reactions...
No matter how much I KNOW that the person using that language has some deeper meaning which they aren't willing to share... it is my choice to react negatively to it...
So while you may want to elaborate... look at the results that elaborating have given to you...
I do not mean to say that the results are negative...
I am repeating what DB suggests...
Do what works...
On a minute scale...
If positive elaboration worked for you, then keep doing it...
I do not know that the positive elaboration DID NOT work for you...
I suspect there was something ELSE that was causing your W to feel pressure... but that's my opinion...
Is it because the positive elaboration produced GOOD results and therefore you stepped closer and it was THAT which caused your W to feel the pressure...
So I think it would be a good idea for you to take a look at that... if you feel that it worked before, but now has stopped working... then stop doing it...
But in the end, regardless of the "meaning" your W may put to ANY response...
Respond as you would, in an authentic, "Crimson Way..."
Make sense?
IOW, it does appear and I believe psychologists agree, that short, perhaps terse language can be taken as cold or mean...
Responding with words like "fine" or "OK" or "no problem" can activate negative triggers and reactions...
No matter how much I KNOW that the person using that language has some deeper meaning which they aren't willing to share... it is my choice to react negatively to it...
So while you may want to elaborate... look at the results that elaborating have given to you...
I do not mean to say that the results are negative...
I am repeating what DB suggests...
Do what works...
On a minute scale...
If positive elaboration worked for you, then keep doing it...
I do not know that the positive elaboration DID NOT work for you...
I suspect there was something ELSE that was causing your W to feel pressure... but that's my opinion...
Is it because the positive elaboration produced GOOD results and therefore you stepped closer and it was THAT which caused your W to feel the pressure...
So I think it would be a good idea for you to take a look at that... if you feel that it worked before, but now has stopped working... then stop doing it...
But in the end, regardless of the "meaning" your W may put to ANY response...
Respond as you would, in an authentic, "Crimson Way..."
Make sense?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 07:55 PM
I think I did responded in as authentic a manner as possible. Stayed positive - did not express any "next time could you...." or "I wish you would have....".
My lawyer called me today to tell me that w's L is still fighting to garnish my wages for spousal support. It makes it really hard to try to remain positive with that happening in the backgroud. Timing for that call could not have been worse.
It feels like I am doing all I can to keep the waters calm all the while she/her L is throwing in rock after rock. There was a moment today after the L call that I just wanted to explode - but I know that does not do any good. I really am working to be "better". Today just seems like one of those trials.
Crimson
My lawyer called me today to tell me that w's L is still fighting to garnish my wages for spousal support. It makes it really hard to try to remain positive with that happening in the backgroud. Timing for that call could not have been worse.
It feels like I am doing all I can to keep the waters calm all the while she/her L is throwing in rock after rock. There was a moment today after the L call that I just wanted to explode - but I know that does not do any good. I really am working to be "better". Today just seems like one of those trials.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 08:07 PM
I am going to give you a possible reframe regarding the spousal support...
because it sounds to me as though you feel you do not want to give... I don't know why... is it because you feel she doesn't deserve it? Is it because you feel it is too much (which BTW, could basically be the same as saying she doesn't deserve it... ie. that amount)? Is it because you are simply mad at her, so don't want to give her anything?
Again... all those things probably come from the same place, emotionally... at the core...
So here's the reframe:
If the two of you were "living the dream" in regards to the M... would you not happily give her that amount of money, or at least have access to it, directly...?
Or would you only be willing to do that, if the two of you were going to stay together and "live the dream"?
because it sounds to me as though you feel you do not want to give... I don't know why... is it because you feel she doesn't deserve it? Is it because you feel it is too much (which BTW, could basically be the same as saying she doesn't deserve it... ie. that amount)? Is it because you are simply mad at her, so don't want to give her anything?
Again... all those things probably come from the same place, emotionally... at the core...
So here's the reframe:
If the two of you were "living the dream" in regards to the M... would you not happily give her that amount of money, or at least have access to it, directly...?
Or would you only be willing to do that, if the two of you were going to stay together and "live the dream"?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 09:04 PM
You know, the funny thing is KD - I came to grips with the dollar amount quite some time ago. It has required me to do a pretty significant overhaul of my personal finances - but the way that the statues are written here I am hopeful that I won't have to have that obligation for multiple years.
No, it's more the fact that the money is being taken directly out of my check (though it is not a requirement for spousal support in my state). She or her lawyer asked for it that way.It says "I don't trust you to make your payments" when she has always known me to be financially responsible. It's the fact that it had to involve HR from my company....all sorts of things that I find humiliating.
That said, I do like the way that you framed it. It't just hard to let go of the parts of how/why this was done that bothers me.
Crimson
No, it's more the fact that the money is being taken directly out of my check (though it is not a requirement for spousal support in my state). She or her lawyer asked for it that way.It says "I don't trust you to make your payments" when she has always known me to be financially responsible. It's the fact that it had to involve HR from my company....all sorts of things that I find humiliating.
That said, I do like the way that you framed it. It't just hard to let go of the parts of how/why this was done that bothers me.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 09:13 PM
Crimson,
about the spousal support garnishment, isn't this possibly a way to avoid the discomfort & awkwardness that
YOU expressed feeling - when you stand there and write a check and hand it to her? If I were here, I'd find that insulting and irksome, at best. What's up with going through all that instead of just getting an automatic payment out of your pay?
Why wouldn't this make it easier on you as a couple, esp if it's the same amount?
As to the trip...I have mixed feelings. I don't like the "done deal" she made on one hand - as if all is well & progressing, which it may well be,
AND proceeding with the divorce at the same time.
BUT I also agree that it's a chance for a 180.
To avoid the potential for your short emails sounding terse-
why not pick up the phone? Confirm the dates, pause and say "sounds fun for you" and don't embellish too much. Or Maybe you can call when she's not able to answer if you want to avoid details, or any possible escalation of things.
Maybe you could leave a FUNNY message about how she "owes you now", or how you hope she brings a lot of distractions/toys/binkies/books, b/c that's a plane trip with a toddler
and there are reasons people avoid sitting next to you on the plane
(you can see passengers praying you wont' be next to them as you pass them by for another row, and hear their sighs of relief) or that maybe SHE will need a prescription for the trip...
Just some thoughts...
about the spousal support garnishment, isn't this possibly a way to avoid the discomfort & awkwardness that
YOU expressed feeling - when you stand there and write a check and hand it to her? If I were here, I'd find that insulting and irksome, at best. What's up with going through all that instead of just getting an automatic payment out of your pay?
Why wouldn't this make it easier on you as a couple, esp if it's the same amount?
As to the trip...I have mixed feelings. I don't like the "done deal" she made on one hand - as if all is well & progressing, which it may well be,
AND proceeding with the divorce at the same time.
BUT I also agree that it's a chance for a 180.
To avoid the potential for your short emails sounding terse-
why not pick up the phone? Confirm the dates, pause and say "sounds fun for you" and don't embellish too much. Or Maybe you can call when she's not able to answer if you want to avoid details, or any possible escalation of things.
Maybe you could leave a FUNNY message about how she "owes you now", or how you hope she brings a lot of distractions/toys/binkies/books, b/c that's a plane trip with a toddler
and there are reasons people avoid sitting next to you on the plane
(you can see passengers praying you wont' be next to them as you pass them by for another row, and hear their sighs of relief) or that maybe SHE will need a prescription for the trip...
Just some thoughts...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 09:18 PM
our posts crossed
I'm not saying I am "right" but - I am saying there's a whole different way of seeing this.
Originally Posted By: Crimson
You know, the funny thing is KD - I came to grips with the dollar amount quite some time ago. It has required me to do a pretty significant overhaul of my personal finances - but the way that the statues are written here I am hopeful that I won't have to have that obligation for multiple years.
No, it's more the fact that the money is being taken directly out of my check (though it is not a requirement for spousal support in my state). She or her lawyer asked for it that way.It says "I don't trust you to make your payments" when she has always known me to be financially responsible. It's the fact that it had to involve HR from my company....all sorts of things that I find humiliating.
I SO don't see it that way. IF I were her, TO ME it would say "why do I have to come openly and beg you for money that the law says I get?
Why you are so controlling/angry/punitive, that you make me go through the extra step of having to ask for it, or make it look as if you are "giving" me something like it's a gift from you?"
That said, I do like the way that you framed it. It't just hard to let go of the parts of how/why this was done that bothers me.
Crimson
No, it's more the fact that the money is being taken directly out of my check (though it is not a requirement for spousal support in my state). She or her lawyer asked for it that way.It says "I don't trust you to make your payments" when she has always known me to be financially responsible. It's the fact that it had to involve HR from my company....all sorts of things that I find humiliating.
I SO don't see it that way. IF I were her, TO ME it would say "why do I have to come openly and beg you for money that the law says I get?
Why you are so controlling/angry/punitive, that you make me go through the extra step of having to ask for it, or make it look as if you are "giving" me something like it's a gift from you?"
That said, I do like the way that you framed it. It't just hard to let go of the parts of how/why this was done that bothers me.
Crimson
I'm not saying I am "right" but - I am saying there's a whole different way of seeing this.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 09:19 PM
ok, got it... Wasn't sure where your feelings were coming from...
Yes, there it is...
So shame... that's showing up in you, still...
Where else might this still be showing up in your life? In your sitch? Your interactions with others... with your W...?
What's that other one... trouble putting my finger on it...
Would it be pride, perhaps? That you believe "I AM TRUSTWORTHY" and feel unjustly accused?
For a moment... think to yourself if there is any reason that your W might feel you would withhold financially, from her...
Can you think of any times you had done that?
Whether you can imagine above...
Consider...
While it may not be a "requirement"... it is possible that is something that Ls request from a court. I am not saying you wouldn't, but there must have been something in the petition that convinced the judge to allow for it... OR... whether there was a validity, it might be the judge's position to allow for that, if requested...
So it may simply be a process of the ruling, as opposed to any personal attack on you, by your W nor anyone involved...
Originally Posted By: Crimson
It says "I don't trust you to make your payments" when she has always known me to be financially responsible. It's the fact that it had to involve HR from my company....all sorts of things that I find humiliating.
Yes, there it is...
So shame... that's showing up in you, still...
Where else might this still be showing up in your life? In your sitch? Your interactions with others... with your W...?
What's that other one... trouble putting my finger on it...
Would it be pride, perhaps? That you believe "I AM TRUSTWORTHY" and feel unjustly accused?
For a moment... think to yourself if there is any reason that your W might feel you would withhold financially, from her...
Can you think of any times you had done that?
Whether you can imagine above...
Consider...
While it may not be a "requirement"... it is possible that is something that Ls request from a court. I am not saying you wouldn't, but there must have been something in the petition that convinced the judge to allow for it... OR... whether there was a validity, it might be the judge's position to allow for that, if requested...
So it may simply be a process of the ruling, as opposed to any personal attack on you, by your W nor anyone involved...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 09:20 PM
lol... 25 got in there ahead of me. 
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/16/12 11:14 PM
25 & KD -
Yep. Shame is pretty much what it is. Same shame I felt when I was served papers in my office.
Realistically, there is no difference in the money coming straight from my check. I just find it humiliating to have your wages garnished. That's me, personally - and I know it is something that I will have to suck up and get over.
Maybe it is hard for her to have me hand her a check. She has never had to beg or ask for it, I give it to her on time, every time. No matter, what's done is done - and there is nothing I can do about it.
Crimson
Yep. Shame is pretty much what it is. Same shame I felt when I was served papers in my office.
Realistically, there is no difference in the money coming straight from my check. I just find it humiliating to have your wages garnished. That's me, personally - and I know it is something that I will have to suck up and get over.
Maybe it is hard for her to have me hand her a check. She has never had to beg or ask for it, I give it to her on time, every time. No matter, what's done is done - and there is nothing I can do about it.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 01:26 AM
Had to call w this evening to cover a few things. Probably the first time I have called her unexpectedly in quite some time.
She sounded very, very down. I asked her if she was doing alright and she said she had a "long day". I asked her if something happened at work and she said she was mourning and grieving because our divorce is coming up and that she misses our son, too.
It just makes me sad. She seems to have her mind made up - and is sad and grieving. I just want to say it doesn't have to be this way - I want to ask her not to give up on us or our relationship. But I know that would do no good at this point.
In my heart, I want to believe that her being sad and mournful is indicative of the fact that MAYBE she doesn't want to do this. That she has second thoughts. But playing that kind of a speculative game is pretty dangerous and nonproductive.
Heart is hurting tonight. I wish I was stronger and that I could say I didn't care and that everything is going to be alright - but I sure can't do that right now. The prospect of living so apart from my son is heart-breaking. The prospect of "disposing" of our embryo is heart-breaking.
I have done a lot of growing and changing in this process -- in a lot of ways. I don't regret that. I just wish that w was still willing to work on relationship. To accept that maybe the man and relationship she walked away from is not the same still. I know that the equation is consistent change + sufficient time. But from where I am sitting right now it seems a lot like there isn't enough time in the world.
Probably just mourning in my own right, but I don't feel as though I was a monster to her. I was clueless, but never deliberately hurtful or cruel. Never. Yet, I feel as though I am being given the same regard as if I cheated on her or was abusive. I guess what I am learning is that the end result is the same. She probably felt as bad as if I did any of those things and I had no idea I was putting her through it.
Gonna be a long night.
Crimson
She ended the call by saying (in a very sad, mournful voice) to give our boy some love from her.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 02:11 AM
I feel uncomfortable posting to u because u belong to another. Will do it anyways.
I think asking those questions was a bit like Persuing. You still seem very obsessed with W. My divorce is a month after yours but it is not my advance directive. I still have a life worthy of good things for me and my D. You must be strong and live as if. It really helps. Can you take care of your son once divorced and feel so down and broken? I know how much this hurts. But your son wants at least one stable strong parent. And that one is you. Hope you have a good nights rest
I think asking those questions was a bit like Persuing. You still seem very obsessed with W. My divorce is a month after yours but it is not my advance directive. I still have a life worthy of good things for me and my D. You must be strong and live as if. It really helps. Can you take care of your son once divorced and feel so down and broken? I know how much this hurts. But your son wants at least one stable strong parent. And that one is you. Hope you have a good nights rest
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 02:34 AM
So Crimson... are you going to give your S some love from her, like she asked...?
Is there any way you can empathize with your W without making it about you? Not a judgement, just a comment.
What I mean by that is, if she was just a friend, I'm sure you would feel bad for her and say everything is going to be alright... and validate her feelings... and not make it about what YOU are getting (or not getting) out of the deal... out of the connection with her...
Might that be possible for you?
Is there any way you can empathize with your W without making it about you? Not a judgement, just a comment.
What I mean by that is, if she was just a friend, I'm sure you would feel bad for her and say everything is going to be alright... and validate her feelings... and not make it about what YOU are getting (or not getting) out of the deal... out of the connection with her...
Might that be possible for you?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 04:24 AM
Rick- I don't have much of a choice. I can't crumple for my son. KD - if I can scratch and claw my way to that level of detachment I will.
W mentioned embryo when we spoke. She said she thought we both wanted to use it because it was "the right thing to do" to not get rid of it. She then said "but you would only want to do it as a family". I confirmed that and told her that I didn't want to bring another life into this world just to be a part time father.
Her thinking that that would be "ok" makes me really wonder where her head is. I mean, raising an infant part time? How the hell would that work for either of us? Logistically that wouldnt even work. Is she lost? That confused? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't get it. Her leaving when son was 16 months and then saying THAT makes me wonder if I was just there for her to have children with. Her being ok with getting divorced and STILL wanting to have a baby with me just spins my head.
Crimson
W mentioned embryo when we spoke. She said she thought we both wanted to use it because it was "the right thing to do" to not get rid of it. She then said "but you would only want to do it as a family". I confirmed that and told her that I didn't want to bring another life into this world just to be a part time father.
Her thinking that that would be "ok" makes me really wonder where her head is. I mean, raising an infant part time? How the hell would that work for either of us? Logistically that wouldnt even work. Is she lost? That confused? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't get it. Her leaving when son was 16 months and then saying THAT makes me wonder if I was just there for her to have children with. Her being ok with getting divorced and STILL wanting to have a baby with me just spins my head.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 04:31 AM
Crimson - I know a lot of this is confusing and I can totally empathize with how you are feeling. Having said that, I see nothing wrong with establishing a boundary as it relates to the embryo. Your point is very valid and you should feel comfortable stating your position on the matter which I think is completely reasonable. So don't feel bad about that.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 04:33 AM
First, I would hope that consideration regarding the embryo would be a joint decision between the two of you. In the same token, who is the one that is challenged in the fertility sector? Even at my young age of 44... I would not be opposed to be a father again...
Having said that, consider perhaps that it is a test from your W... not saying it is, but why would she even consider being a co-parent with you, again... if that was all she wanted from you...?
I can see a one night stand having a "whoops"...
Is it even possible for you to wrap your head around the idea that... discussion regarding the embryo is a test to see if you are still committed to your W...
And maybe... just maybe... that's all she's ever asked from you...? Is that you are just there for her?
That it's her way of telling you that you actually are significant enough... that you are important enough to her, that she would even consider utilizing the embryo...?
Having said that, consider perhaps that it is a test from your W... not saying it is, but why would she even consider being a co-parent with you, again... if that was all she wanted from you...?
I can see a one night stand having a "whoops"...
Is it even possible for you to wrap your head around the idea that... discussion regarding the embryo is a test to see if you are still committed to your W...
And maybe... just maybe... that's all she's ever asked from you...? Is that you are just there for her?
That it's her way of telling you that you actually are significant enough... that you are important enough to her, that she would even consider utilizing the embryo...?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 05:01 AM
I think it was a 70/30 split, KD. With the 70% being me. So even starting again with someone else would be a body of work for me. She would probably have an easier time.
Didn't think of it in the way you described. Trying to balance the notion that procreating with me is OK, but BEING with me is not possible. Maybe in one sense it is a test. Hard to tell. It's just confusing.
Crimson
Didn't think of it in the way you described. Trying to balance the notion that procreating with me is OK, but BEING with me is not possible. Maybe in one sense it is a test. Hard to tell. It's just confusing.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 05:12 AM
Part of me thinks that she may be thinking at nearly 39 years old I am her last chance. Dating, finding the right person, getting married, having a baby. All of that could take a long time - And possibly never happen at all. She really wants another child I know this 100%. Maybe she's okay being a part-time parent for an infant as long as she has another baby? I have no idea how to look at this objectively.
Crimson
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 05:14 AM
PS....... Great, now I'm going to have "all that she wants is another baby" by Ace of Base in my head all night.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 08:25 AM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
PS....... Great, now I'm going to have "all that she wants is another baby" by Ace of Base in my head all night.
get it out of your head. Stop being a "Swirling Vortex Of Negativity" (aka SVON)
which only makes you crazy and makes nothing better...
Have you asked your wife these questions about what she wants and why and what she expects or needs from YOU for this decision?
And what about YOU?
from what you say about fatherhood, now,
YOU DO want another child too and it sounds as if you will have a harder time than she will with OP...(and you'd likely have to get some help from science if you did, correct?)
so, why can't she wonder the same thing? "If he wants to be a father so much why isn't he working on it? Does he simply want to control ME/outcome, again?"
Why is this always about how she doesn't really love you enough? (Other than your tendency to SVON)
Wasn't the main problem IN the marriage that you did not show her enough love?
Now You keep putting these testing feelers out like she has something to prove.
Keep it simple...be loving and kind to her, show some leadership without being controlling, give her the space she wants (and the divorce provides),
be the father you always wanted to be and be a good friend to her...without constantly taking the temperature of the r, internally or otherwise
AND without expecting a return on your investment - OTHER than the sheer enjoyment of giving love and being a friend...
We know that if YOU wanted another child, she'd be willing to have it, married or not.
For most people, knowing a WOMAN is willing to do that Well, that's saying a lot.
YES IT IS..
it means while she still is fertile, even if the issues are not resolved, she's willing to risk her health/shape and (take a physical year off of having her body)
and dedicate a CHUNK of the rest of HER life raising another child,
WHILE NOT KNOWING IF YOU'LL STICK AROUND...or Revert and hurt her again.
As a working and then SAH mother, I'm biased. I see women doing the bulk of child care everywhere, even when they work full time.
Crimson= OMG come on, you admitted a lot of "non-involvement" on your end for a LONG time...like NO diaper changing, NO putting to bed, NO reading, NO picking up at daycare, etc... Sorry, I'll stop now but it still gets me.
I find it So ironic when men talk about being "trapped" by an unwanted pregnancy,
as if THEIR life or plans or career will change or be impacted half as much as the mother's, and the reality is she's lucky if he does a third of the work...very lucky...
and if there's a divorce...the woman is often on her own...
So who is REALLY risking the most here in your sitch by discussing another child? Seems to me, it's her.
And IF you do want to have another child, BUT ONLY if you are married ( b/c it's not likely to happen for you, if it isn't w/HER, given the IVF issues, etc)
is that a weapon or tool for you?
Would you really be okay with having only one son
when you w or "co-parent" offered to have another one with you
b/c she wasn't ready to recommit to you or feared you'd revert YET she'd have another child with you...
Crimson I don't want to force this, and if you don't want a child out of wedlock -OKay it's fine either way I get it. But if you part ways and the embryo...goes away, then while her chances for more kids diminish, yours diminish more. Correct? IOW-
Between the two of you, if you BOTH want another child, don't you need HER more than she needs you?
Just make sure you are setting a boundary YOU know is real, and not to manipulate her or get the desired result.
Plus, who says having a baby out of wedlock, sort of, would Not lead to you two reconciling?
I guess You see it as EITHER 1) you reconcile and then maybe have the baby, OR
2) the marriage ends and so does the embryo and any chance of you fathering a another child,
I mean it might be either or, and I accept that.
But can you tell me why isn't there a 3rd option? Even if only a temporary one...just asking
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 11:47 AM
25 - I will elaborate more when I am fully awake,but I have thought about this issue all night long. You raise some very valid points in your post. I think I would be most afraid of having another baby and missing him or her all the time like I miss my son right now. But as usual, you have given me a lot to think about. I will elaborate more later.
Crimson
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 01:02 PM
Hi Crimson. As a parent I think what you're "most afraid of" needs to be refocused onto the helpless innocent babies in this dialogue. We hear a lot about how much you need your son, and how much your W does, and when you talk about splitting the time it's all about what you need and want. Think instead in terms of what your son needs and wants. Think about whether these children are better off having you as their dad or whatever alternatives remain to your W, who wants another child. Think about whether you want your son to have a sibling and what that will mean to the children. Think about the financial needs of two children and whether you can support them. There are many more facets to think about but in the scheme of what's important for the children, your emotion of missing them part of the time would be pretty low on the list. I'm not for or against, or suggesting an answer to you at all, but merely suggesting that you're using the wrong factors in your decision making process. You've got to think for the kid(s) because this decision affects him or them way more than it's going to affect you, and they have no control and no say in their lives at all right now.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 01:34 PM
/\ /\ /\ /\ /\
Well said, Adinva!!! Well said!!
I have one child, not by choice. I would have loved to have more, but biology wouldn't cooperate. I might have been able to if I would have been willing to use donor sperm -- I was not. As it is, I have my son via adoption, and the only thing missing in our relationship is DNA. In fact, I think I actually value him more because getting him wasn't easy.
The point is simply that not being able to have as many children as you would like is not the end of the world. Bringing a child into a broken environment for self-gratification is.... well, certainly less than ideal.
Well said, Adinva!!! Well said!!
I have one child, not by choice. I would have loved to have more, but biology wouldn't cooperate. I might have been able to if I would have been willing to use donor sperm -- I was not. As it is, I have my son via adoption, and the only thing missing in our relationship is DNA. In fact, I think I actually value him more because getting him wasn't easy.
The point is simply that not being able to have as many children as you would like is not the end of the world. Bringing a child into a broken environment for self-gratification is.... well, certainly less than ideal.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 02:07 PM
To me, this isn't about an embryo...
Crimson... this is not even about whether you want to have another child with this woman...
This is about whether you will be there for your W... and be there for the kids WITH your W...
Because you can have another child on your own... doesn't make it right or wrong WHAT environment the child is born and raised... give them the love and nurturing and meet their physical needs... and even in poverty, children can thrive... missing limbs... missing parents... bah... they don't need us... they need a caregiver...
We bond because it's necessary... but it ain't about us... that's selfish thinking...
So what would it matter if your W and you decided that one of you would take the embryo and hopefully have a child of it... and raise it on their own...? WITHOUT the other parent...?
Crimson... before you can even make the determination about whether to bring a child into a broken family... you need to determine whether you are willing to commit to your W... period...
Not because of what she's done to you in the past... 'cause it's pretty clear that she's simply unsure that you're wanting to be there with her...
Crimson... this is not even about whether you want to have another child with this woman...
This is about whether you will be there for your W... and be there for the kids WITH your W...
Because you can have another child on your own... doesn't make it right or wrong WHAT environment the child is born and raised... give them the love and nurturing and meet their physical needs... and even in poverty, children can thrive... missing limbs... missing parents... bah... they don't need us... they need a caregiver...
We bond because it's necessary... but it ain't about us... that's selfish thinking...
So what would it matter if your W and you decided that one of you would take the embryo and hopefully have a child of it... and raise it on their own...? WITHOUT the other parent...?
Crimson... before you can even make the determination about whether to bring a child into a broken family... you need to determine whether you are willing to commit to your W... period...
Not because of what she's done to you in the past... 'cause it's pretty clear that she's simply unsure that you're wanting to be there with her...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 03:06 PM
OK, I am more awake now.
So adinva, I don't think I could act one way or another in this situation if I (we) didn't address the excellent points that you brought up above. As noted long ago in a previous post/thread part of my weakness is that I try to analyze every facet of every major situation in life (babies, jobs, moving, etc.) and if I don't have a crystal clear answer for every question that could come up in 20 years I freeze and don't act. That is partially why I was so hesitant about baby number 2 in the first place. I want to make a responsible choice, but I don't want to fall back in the habit of micro-dissection. It was lethal to my marriage.
We can afford a second child, we both do OK collectively. We have space in the home, and so on. What matters is discovering if I can love enough to do it separately. It's not a matter of loving the child - that is a given. It's a matter of being able to love enough to trust and do this a way that heretofore was unconventional to me and often times frowned upon societally. There is no question that there would be an abundance of love for both children - that's who I have discovered I am in this process....and who I have always known my W to be.
KD - I am willing to commit to my wife whole heartedly. At this point, I would hope that everyone can see that I am not in this for a "win". I know it is hard for HER to see that right now, but that is one of the things I am hopeful that time can fix. Her being unsure is understandable.
CV - I understand what you mean about getting him not being easy. My w and I often reflect upon how much our S means to us just because of all the hard work it took to get him. Years of trying and 4 failed fertility procedures. She and I are bonded together in that experience.
I am not making ANY conclusions here - spare the fact that I am willing to have a dialogue with my w about what this type of relationship would look like and what it would mean for OUR relationship and relationships with others.
One of the happiest days that I have had during my sitch was the day we both sat in the doctors office and talked about having a second baby with our specialist. It was happy for both of us. It was the first time my wife reached in and gave me a hug. There is a reason for that happiness - and it wasn't just about R with my wife.
If I am willing to try and change, to be a better person, father, husband - I need to at least remain open to things that I would have been closed off to before. This is one of those things that I will explore. My w said on the day that she dropped the bomb that things always have to be "my way or no way". Just saying that I want to talk about doing this her way if the we both feel strongly enough about it and are prepared is a major....MAJOR 180 for me.
Again, I'm not saying I will or won't. I am saying that I will talk about it. Prior to this point, I wouldn't. It is a very serious decision that impacts the lives of many people - especially the children.
Crimson
So adinva, I don't think I could act one way or another in this situation if I (we) didn't address the excellent points that you brought up above. As noted long ago in a previous post/thread part of my weakness is that I try to analyze every facet of every major situation in life (babies, jobs, moving, etc.) and if I don't have a crystal clear answer for every question that could come up in 20 years I freeze and don't act. That is partially why I was so hesitant about baby number 2 in the first place. I want to make a responsible choice, but I don't want to fall back in the habit of micro-dissection. It was lethal to my marriage.
We can afford a second child, we both do OK collectively. We have space in the home, and so on. What matters is discovering if I can love enough to do it separately. It's not a matter of loving the child - that is a given. It's a matter of being able to love enough to trust and do this a way that heretofore was unconventional to me and often times frowned upon societally. There is no question that there would be an abundance of love for both children - that's who I have discovered I am in this process....and who I have always known my W to be.
KD - I am willing to commit to my wife whole heartedly. At this point, I would hope that everyone can see that I am not in this for a "win". I know it is hard for HER to see that right now, but that is one of the things I am hopeful that time can fix. Her being unsure is understandable.
CV - I understand what you mean about getting him not being easy. My w and I often reflect upon how much our S means to us just because of all the hard work it took to get him. Years of trying and 4 failed fertility procedures. She and I are bonded together in that experience.
I am not making ANY conclusions here - spare the fact that I am willing to have a dialogue with my w about what this type of relationship would look like and what it would mean for OUR relationship and relationships with others.
One of the happiest days that I have had during my sitch was the day we both sat in the doctors office and talked about having a second baby with our specialist. It was happy for both of us. It was the first time my wife reached in and gave me a hug. There is a reason for that happiness - and it wasn't just about R with my wife.
If I am willing to try and change, to be a better person, father, husband - I need to at least remain open to things that I would have been closed off to before. This is one of those things that I will explore. My w said on the day that she dropped the bomb that things always have to be "my way or no way". Just saying that I want to talk about doing this her way if the we both feel strongly enough about it and are prepared is a major....MAJOR 180 for me.
Again, I'm not saying I will or won't. I am saying that I will talk about it. Prior to this point, I wouldn't. It is a very serious decision that impacts the lives of many people - especially the children.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 03:09 PM
Thoughts?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 03:32 PM
I understand decision making paralysis. Part of it is the vast universe of possible factors and scenarios, which you need to pare down to only the relevant ones. You need to weigh using this embryo against the most likely alternative scenario(s), not every possible scenario. If you discard this embryo, will that prevent W from having a baby? I doubt it, it'll just prevent her from having that baby.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 05:37 PM
Crimson, I believe you when you say you aren't in this to "win"... I get a sense that by that, you mean that you don't want to win, at some else' loss...
I found it interesting that you posted in jlove's thread and wondering about the value of retrouvaille for you and your W, since it was after the date of the D...
Tell me that doesn't still sound like this whole thing is about the D for you... how to prevent it...
Yes, I understand that perhaps you believe that retrouvaille... or anything that is labelled as relating to marital relationships would not apply to you in the event that you are D... but that didn't sound like your questions in that thread...
Maybe I was off there... only you could tell me...
When you were offered the job you currently have... did you plan the route and consider all the possible problems and risks that could happen... including death in transit... for the next 20 years... before you accepted the job...?
Did you do the same when you agreed to start dating your W?
How about when you chose to marry her?
When you decided to have your first child?
When you went to that last restaurant...?
OK, I understand that perhaps your suggestion of micro-planning was a bit of an exaggeration...
Is it not true that some things should be carefully considered?
Of course...
But you did mention something very important and clear about that behaviour in you...
It is a habit...
You go there when you are stressed...
Because it does what for you?
Perhaps it allows you to not have to make a decision... because you need to review everything more carefully...
Again, what's the real root of that... because I know you can pour on the logic to defend why making a decision of that import is imperative...
Many people successfully have children without that careful consideration... even in poverty... even in times of war... even when they don't know the outcome... because really... we never know... you could both loose your jobs after this child is born... but that isn't a consideration for you...
Whether you "save" your M is the consideration...
What the heck, man... have a love child with this woman...!!!
Who cares? You'll love and take care of the kid, won't you...?
Is it about the kid? Or is it about you?
I found it interesting that you posted in jlove's thread and wondering about the value of retrouvaille for you and your W, since it was after the date of the D...
Tell me that doesn't still sound like this whole thing is about the D for you... how to prevent it...
Yes, I understand that perhaps you believe that retrouvaille... or anything that is labelled as relating to marital relationships would not apply to you in the event that you are D... but that didn't sound like your questions in that thread...
Maybe I was off there... only you could tell me...
When you were offered the job you currently have... did you plan the route and consider all the possible problems and risks that could happen... including death in transit... for the next 20 years... before you accepted the job...?
Did you do the same when you agreed to start dating your W?
How about when you chose to marry her?
When you decided to have your first child?
When you went to that last restaurant...?
OK, I understand that perhaps your suggestion of micro-planning was a bit of an exaggeration...
Is it not true that some things should be carefully considered?
Of course...
But you did mention something very important and clear about that behaviour in you...
It is a habit...
You go there when you are stressed...
Because it does what for you?
Perhaps it allows you to not have to make a decision... because you need to review everything more carefully...
Again, what's the real root of that... because I know you can pour on the logic to defend why making a decision of that import is imperative...
Many people successfully have children without that careful consideration... even in poverty... even in times of war... even when they don't know the outcome... because really... we never know... you could both loose your jobs after this child is born... but that isn't a consideration for you...
Whether you "save" your M is the consideration...
What the heck, man... have a love child with this woman...!!!
Who cares? You'll love and take care of the kid, won't you...?
Is it about the kid? Or is it about you?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 05:43 PM
I completely get the analysis paralysis. I have that too. Like so many things in life, recognition is a giant leap toward correction. I figure you're at least half-way home.
Your faith will have to factor in significantly on this, obviously. "Disposing" could mean truly discarding, or you could offer it up for adoption. Both of those options have a slew of "what-if's" associated with them, too. So this is not a light or simple decision before you. It's good that you are considering options outside of your previous comfort zone.
One of the techniques I've developed to address my analysis-paralysis is to answer three questions. First, can I put this off until later. (Yes, I'm trading my current issue for procrastination. Meh, I still figure it's a step up.) The second question is "Can I change my mind on this later," in other words, do it differently later. It makes it much easier to make decisions on big-ticket purchases or things like job changes, because though serious, they are things that can be changed if it doesn't work out. It enables me to make a decision and get on with living, and simply decide to change it later if necessary. And the third question is "Will I regret more bearing the consequences of having done it, or of having not done it."
Of course, you could just flip a coin, then do the opposite of the win because that's not what you really wanted to do, or is it...?
And sometimes there is no really good decision, but just what you can live with long term. Fact is, even if you and W decide to go the route of "baking" the embryo, there's no guarantee it will result in a baby. It's still all up to God.
Your faith will have to factor in significantly on this, obviously. "Disposing" could mean truly discarding, or you could offer it up for adoption. Both of those options have a slew of "what-if's" associated with them, too. So this is not a light or simple decision before you. It's good that you are considering options outside of your previous comfort zone.
One of the techniques I've developed to address my analysis-paralysis is to answer three questions. First, can I put this off until later. (Yes, I'm trading my current issue for procrastination. Meh, I still figure it's a step up.) The second question is "Can I change my mind on this later," in other words, do it differently later. It makes it much easier to make decisions on big-ticket purchases or things like job changes, because though serious, they are things that can be changed if it doesn't work out. It enables me to make a decision and get on with living, and simply decide to change it later if necessary. And the third question is "Will I regret more bearing the consequences of having done it, or of having not done it."
Of course, you could just flip a coin, then do the opposite of the win because that's not what you really wanted to do, or is it...?
And sometimes there is no really good decision, but just what you can live with long term. Fact is, even if you and W decide to go the route of "baking" the embryo, there's no guarantee it will result in a baby. It's still all up to God.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 05:44 PM
Yes, I know I'll get tagged for this one, so I will agree that you did indicate the "upside" of retrouvaille after D, so I honour you for looking at the positive opportunity it might be, even after the fact...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 06:20 PM
Thanks, KD - was going to say that I was expressing HOPE for Retrouvaille. No interest in giving up just yet - still trying to believe in non-linear progress.
Talk to the guy in my office that is my senior, but went through this exact same ordeal in his marriage. His w made it all the way to D as well. He said that he honestly believes that once the D is over, my wife will feel like a million pund weight has been lifted off of her shoulders. Said that is what happened with his own wife and actually, over time, made things better. They have been back together for years. He said NOTHING that I have said strikes him as "odd" or unusual relative to my situation. Granted, there is no script - but it's nice to talk to someone that has done this before.
Crimson
Talk to the guy in my office that is my senior, but went through this exact same ordeal in his marriage. His w made it all the way to D as well. He said that he honestly believes that once the D is over, my wife will feel like a million pund weight has been lifted off of her shoulders. Said that is what happened with his own wife and actually, over time, made things better. They have been back together for years. He said NOTHING that I have said strikes him as "odd" or unusual relative to my situation. Granted, there is no script - but it's nice to talk to someone that has done this before.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 06:45 PM
I think what your co worker said about a weight being lifted for the WAS is so true. I can feel my H angst, even when I let go he makes up reasons that I am still preventing him from being himself. We are truly the ball and chains.
IMHO, do not have another kid with your W until you both are in a much much more stable place. The idea of having another kid and it making things better rather than twice as hard is fantasy thinking on both your parts.
IMHO, do not have another kid with your W until you both are in a much much more stable place. The idea of having another kid and it making things better rather than twice as hard is fantasy thinking on both your parts.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 06:50 PM
'non-linear progress' - I like that. I'm going to steal it.
I also like hearing of the guy in your office. It seems increasingly likely the divorce will happen in my case as well, so it's nice to hear about cases where things actually IMPROVED for two people's relationship with EACH OTHER afterwords. I mean, we hear stories, but it seems more heartening when it's 'real people' someone actually knows.
I also like hearing of the guy in your office. It seems increasingly likely the divorce will happen in my case as well, so it's nice to hear about cases where things actually IMPROVED for two people's relationship with EACH OTHER afterwords. I mean, we hear stories, but it seems more heartening when it's 'real people' someone actually knows.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: adinva
I understand decision making paralysis. Part of it is the vast universe of possible factors and scenarios, which you need to pare down to only the relevant ones. You need to weigh using this embryo against the most likely alternative scenario(s), not every possible scenario. If you discard this embryo, will that prevent W from having a baby? I doubt it, it'll just prevent her from having that baby.
Well, true, but It will make it far more difficult for Crimson to have another child, if I understand the physical situation correctly...and this embryo is related to his son. Just adding that in.
And don't engage in paralysis by analysis Crimson. You said it was lethal to your marriage.
Truth be told, 2 of our 3 children were sort of unplanned (as in, we had a few drinks, and whatever...etc)
Our first was definitely a surprise--but if we had calculated out when the right time for a child would be, when IDEALLY it would occur, I am not sure we'd have any...
Too complicated to figure out that way. I thank God he made the choice for us. Once we had our son we knew we wanted him to have a sibling and then we had our 3rd and despite the gap in ages, they are very close.
It's a big decision and I'm not saying which choice to make but the idea that you'll come up with the ideal solution with all bases covered, does not happen in real life, in my opinion.
Always Struggling to find that ideal, or to create a risk free course of action is an unproductive way to live...in short, it's a drag. And impossible.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 07:04 PM
of course... you could always keep trying to have a baby the "natural" way... 
Who really knows?
But like 25 says... there is no PERFECT time... even if we are completely oblivious to the fact that we could have a child... and tomorrow... that child could be dead... or one of the parents could be...
Nothing worth having in life is easy...
I don't care what anyone says...
Even if I knew that my W and I would D... and have a horrible R... I would still choose to bring my D9 into this world... because SHE IS WORTH IT...
Who really knows?
But like 25 says... there is no PERFECT time... even if we are completely oblivious to the fact that we could have a child... and tomorrow... that child could be dead... or one of the parents could be...
Nothing worth having in life is easy...
I don't care what anyone says...
Even if I knew that my W and I would D... and have a horrible R... I would still choose to bring my D9 into this world... because SHE IS WORTH IT...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 07:06 PM
but... I'm not saying have the baby...
I'm saying...
let go of the reasons not to...
I'm saying...
let go of the reasons not to...
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 08:52 PM
25 and others re: over analyzing.
Of all of the things that I regret, that is high on the list. Fear of failure or making a wrong decision that would negatively impact my or my wife's life kept me from really jumping out and enjoying the great unknowns in life. Including baby #2. THAT, through listenting to my wife, was a major deal breaker for her and something that I really think turned her heart against me. Knowing how badly I want a family now I wish I could go back in time and change things. I was such a fool.
Not a peep from w today. Not guessing that I will hear from her. I have to drop son off with her today.
That never gets easy. I know he is in the best of hands, but it still chokes me up. I love that kid.
If someone is done with you....I mean D-O-N-E done, the notion of having a baby together seems so far off the table it is hard to fathom. I really don't understand her emotions and actions very well, but I am trying. To say on the phone that she is "mourning and grieving because our divorce is coming up" just feels so strange.
I don't know, but I would guess that by the time most couples get to this point there is a lot of animosity and ill-feelings. W and I don't fight, spend time together with son here and still laugh together. We GET ALONG. I don't know if it is because she *slightly* believes in the changes I am trying to make or what - but there is not a lot of negative energy flowing back and forth between us. Hell, we are able to sit next to each other in church. It just seems like D wouldn't be the final answer right now. If it comes, I am preparing. And, as my friend John said, I hope that it lifts a weight off of her and she is able to see things differently.
Crimson
Of all of the things that I regret, that is high on the list. Fear of failure or making a wrong decision that would negatively impact my or my wife's life kept me from really jumping out and enjoying the great unknowns in life. Including baby #2. THAT, through listenting to my wife, was a major deal breaker for her and something that I really think turned her heart against me. Knowing how badly I want a family now I wish I could go back in time and change things. I was such a fool.
Not a peep from w today. Not guessing that I will hear from her. I have to drop son off with her today.
That never gets easy. I know he is in the best of hands, but it still chokes me up. I love that kid.If someone is done with you....I mean D-O-N-E done, the notion of having a baby together seems so far off the table it is hard to fathom. I really don't understand her emotions and actions very well, but I am trying. To say on the phone that she is "mourning and grieving because our divorce is coming up" just feels so strange.
I don't know, but I would guess that by the time most couples get to this point there is a lot of animosity and ill-feelings. W and I don't fight, spend time together with son here and still laugh together. We GET ALONG. I don't know if it is because she *slightly* believes in the changes I am trying to make or what - but there is not a lot of negative energy flowing back and forth between us. Hell, we are able to sit next to each other in church. It just seems like D wouldn't be the final answer right now. If it comes, I am preparing. And, as my friend John said, I hope that it lifts a weight off of her and she is able to see things differently.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 10:31 PM
Hey GM - thanks for all of your insight. I appreciate it and do understand the point(s) that you are making.
I DO know that my divorce is coming and that it is "when" not "if" - spare some sort of miracle it is all but done. My previous post isn't a denial of that fact. Rather, I just kind of think out loud on why things are a certain way, or why certain things don't make sense to me. I have accepted it - I don't LIKE it, but I have accepted it.
And believe me when I say that I am thinking all angles of a post-divorce baby. Remember, OVER analyizing things is a default behavior of mine - hard to run from it. I have thought about dealing with step parents and other issues. I want to hear HER thoughts on the matter and not just shut her out like I have in the past. It is not a commitment to do anything but listen as far as I am concerned for the moment.
You said it best, after the D - what happens next is unknown.
Crimson
I DO know that my divorce is coming and that it is "when" not "if" - spare some sort of miracle it is all but done. My previous post isn't a denial of that fact. Rather, I just kind of think out loud on why things are a certain way, or why certain things don't make sense to me. I have accepted it - I don't LIKE it, but I have accepted it.
And believe me when I say that I am thinking all angles of a post-divorce baby. Remember, OVER analyizing things is a default behavior of mine - hard to run from it. I have thought about dealing with step parents and other issues. I want to hear HER thoughts on the matter and not just shut her out like I have in the past. It is not a commitment to do anything but listen as far as I am concerned for the moment.
You said it best, after the D - what happens next is unknown.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 10:54 PM
Hey Crimson just curious. When you park your car do you try many times until it is perfectly parked? Have you noticed yourself doing that with other things? Do them repeatedly until you are satisfied that it is perfect and safe?
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/17/12 11:20 PM
Rick, I would love to say that the metaphor that you are using is not true at all. But yes, there are times when I have OCD tendencies like that. Have really worked on it these last several months. It is a life-limiting liability.
Crimson
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/18/12 12:01 AM
Actually not a metaphor someone with OCD may do that. Have you ever turned around on your way to the office to come home and make sure the stove is off and the front door was locked? Are you seeing a counselor just for u? Some Meds can help if u have OCD. Something to think about. Have a great night
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/18/12 12:04 AM
One last question full of them tonite. Do you ever feel like burning or cutting an extremity to calm down? I know my questions sound weird. But it is a voluntary place and u don't have to answer.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/18/12 02:26 AM
Rick - not those examples specifically, but I on occasion force myself to keep driving even though I could almost SWEAR I left the garage door up - only to return after work to find it down. There are no two ways about it - I DO have low grade OCD and have been told as much by a professional. The antidepressant that I take is also given to people with OCD - so it's kind of a "two-fer" for me. Since the bomb, the amount that I was taking for depression increased and I HAVE found that it has helped with some of my OCD tendencies as a side benefit. I would say if you rank OCD on a scale of 1-10 (ten being that you believe if you don't flip the light switch exactly NINE times the Oak Ridge Boys will die) I would say that untreated I am a 3. Of course, my W would probably say otherwise.
No on the cutting/burning. I have heard of people doing that. W is a school counselor so she has seen it a lot. Thankfully I have avoided that one.
Crimson
No on the cutting/burning. I have heard of people doing that. W is a school counselor so she has seen it a lot. Thankfully I have avoided that one.
Crimson
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/18/12 10:52 AM
That's is good. My dad used to do stuff like and it used to drive my mom nuts. They always faught over his behavior. Like u it was mild but annoying to her.
Re: Never thought I'd be here......part XIV - 04/23/12 09:35 PM
Hi, All.
I decided to take a few days (5-6) off from posting just to try to clear my head of my situation. I know I am opening myself up to a mountain of "no sh*t" remarks - but I tend to over-think and obsess over certain aspects of it. Being away for a little bit did kind of help my head a bit to some degree.
Earlier last week I was trying to fall asleep and my phone buzzed with a text from my wife. "Hope you are doing well. I am sorry that I have caused you so much pain". Just out of the blue - not R talk for quite some time. I didn't really know how to respond. I guess in that moment at her place that night she was feeling "bad" perhaps? I don't know.
Much later in the week we had a friendly via text/e-mail about "first and onlys" - mean things that we werethe first and only for each other (I.E. - first girl that met my grandparents, etc.). I just gave a few and she was so amazed she asked me to write them down for her - because they were "so nice to hear". She didn't know a lot of them - probably because I never told her. For example, she was the first person I had ever taken to a work event in my entire career. It was a fun exercise, and really a timely reminder that we have done a lot together over the last 8 years. She really seemed grateful to read them.
I had S this past weekend and still have him through Tuesday. Those 5-day stretches are hard on both of us. Usually we end up meeting up at church and we get to see him for a little bit. She wasn't able to make it this Sunday, so me and the boy went on our own. I think she was a little surprised I went knowing that she wouldn't be there - based history and some things that she has said before that is a decent-sized 180. I am going to continue going, even if it is by myself.
I called w after church - I knew she wanted to see S so I asked her if she wanted to do brunch with us. She couldn't - but asked if we could do dinner. We made plans to meet up later.
During the afternoon, S was really, really crying and asking for "mommy". Woke up from his nap in tears asking for her - that never happens. I couldn't get him to stop. I literally had to sit on the bed and hold him in my arms and "shhh" him like I did when he was just a few months old. It is always hard for me to deal with that - it really, really tears at your heart.
When he got to see her at dinner, he was elated. We had a nice talk and enjoyed haning out. As usual, we just kind of got caught up on each other's week and had some laughs.
In the car on the way back she made an intersting statement regarding her part in this. She said that she had always thought that she could "outsmart" the dysfuction of her parent's relationship - in other words, be aware of it and not let it influence HER relationships or become a pattern she falls into. She said she thought she could do it, but now realizes that she didn't. It is the second time during this whole debacle that she has made a statement like that - this time was much more clear than the first. In our 8 years together, she always said that her parents had no influence on how she was in relationships - including ours. I won't go into detail, but her parents had a really messed up situation when w was a child - including affairs, pregnancies as a result, eventually culminating in her mom leaving her dad for another woman. Never in the house was there any love shown, no communication, no time spent together as a couple. I DO think that she, on some level, feared that's where we were going - and that's why she pulled the plug and filed for D. Just a partial theory.
Anyhooo - things are still moving forward in terms of the D. She hasn't said much about it, but I still think it is a tought decision for her. Funny, last night on the way to dinner she said that her sister was dating a new guy that was divorced with two kids. He claims that his now ex-wife was a total monster. W then paused and said, "I guess all divorced men say things like that about their ex-wives". Clearly that was aimed at me for one reason or another.
I didn't respond.
Hope you guys are doing well.
Crimson
I decided to take a few days (5-6) off from posting just to try to clear my head of my situation. I know I am opening myself up to a mountain of "no sh*t" remarks - but I tend to over-think and obsess over certain aspects of it. Being away for a little bit did kind of help my head a bit to some degree.
Earlier last week I was trying to fall asleep and my phone buzzed with a text from my wife. "Hope you are doing well. I am sorry that I have caused you so much pain". Just out of the blue - not R talk for quite some time. I didn't really know how to respond. I guess in that moment at her place that night she was feeling "bad" perhaps? I don't know.
Much later in the week we had a friendly via text/e-mail about "first and onlys" - mean things that we werethe first and only for each other (I.E. - first girl that met my grandparents, etc.). I just gave a few and she was so amazed she asked me to write them down for her - because they were "so nice to hear". She didn't know a lot of them - probably because I never told her. For example, she was the first person I had ever taken to a work event in my entire career. It was a fun exercise, and really a timely reminder that we have done a lot together over the last 8 years. She really seemed grateful to read them.
I had S this past weekend and still have him through Tuesday. Those 5-day stretches are hard on both of us. Usually we end up meeting up at church and we get to see him for a little bit. She wasn't able to make it this Sunday, so me and the boy went on our own. I think she was a little surprised I went knowing that she wouldn't be there - based history and some things that she has said before that is a decent-sized 180. I am going to continue going, even if it is by myself.
I called w after church - I knew she wanted to see S so I asked her if she wanted to do brunch with us. She couldn't - but asked if we could do dinner. We made plans to meet up later.
During the afternoon, S was really, really crying and asking for "mommy". Woke up from his nap in tears asking for her - that never happens. I couldn't get him to stop. I literally had to sit on the bed and hold him in my arms and "shhh" him like I did when he was just a few months old. It is always hard for me to deal with that - it really, really tears at your heart.
When he got to see her at dinner, he was elated. We had a nice talk and enjoyed haning out. As usual, we just kind of got caught up on each other's week and had some laughs.
In the car on the way back she made an intersting statement regarding her part in this. She said that she had always thought that she could "outsmart" the dysfuction of her parent's relationship - in other words, be aware of it and not let it influence HER relationships or become a pattern she falls into. She said she thought she could do it, but now realizes that she didn't. It is the second time during this whole debacle that she has made a statement like that - this time was much more clear than the first. In our 8 years together, she always said that her parents had no influence on how she was in relationships - including ours. I won't go into detail, but her parents had a really messed up situation when w was a child - including affairs, pregnancies as a result, eventually culminating in her mom leaving her dad for another woman. Never in the house was there any love shown, no communication, no time spent together as a couple. I DO think that she, on some level, feared that's where we were going - and that's why she pulled the plug and filed for D. Just a partial theory.
Anyhooo - things are still moving forward in terms of the D. She hasn't said much about it, but I still think it is a tought decision for her. Funny, last night on the way to dinner she said that her sister was dating a new guy that was divorced with two kids. He claims that his now ex-wife was a total monster. W then paused and said, "I guess all divorced men say things like that about their ex-wives". Clearly that was aimed at me for one reason or another.
I didn't respond.
Hope you guys are doing well.
Crimson