Well, time for another thread.
Here’s my other three:
#1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122500&page=1#2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2132672&page=1#3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2138681&page=1I haven’t written an update for about a week now, so I’ve got quite a bit to cover.
I signed up to coach D5’s soccer team. Friday was our first practice…it was a lot of fun.
Last Sunday was W’s 31st birthday. I haven’t done a whole lot for her birthdays in the past (usually just dinner and a gift) so I wanted to make sure it was a special day for her this time. So, as I previously mentioned, I threw her a surprise party on Saturday night.
I arranged for her to go out with a friend for a few hours in the late afternoon so I could get ready for the party. I really went all out for it was literally running around the house to get ready. I made sure I had all her favorite food and drink (lots of which I can’t eat because I can’t have dairy), really making it about her. I decorated the deck with Christmas lights and tiki torches and I blew up about 30 balloons and put them in a tarp up on the roof so we could dump them on her head when she walked through the back door.
Everything went perfectly to plan…I actually pulled the surprise off and everyone had a great time at the party. I built a fire in our fire pit and we sat around that until about midnight, when the last couple left. The only bad part of the night was that W and I both went a bit overboard with the wine and both got sick later. W thanked me for the party twice the next day. I really think it meant a lot to her, and I think I did a good job of not having any expectations of reciprocation from her for my effort.
Sunday was her actual birthday. We both had terrible hangovers from the party, so I got up and took care of the kids and made breakfast. I brought it to W while she was still in bed. We spent most of the day taking it easy and recovering. By dinner time we were feeling better. I had a soccer game at 7:00, and around 5:30 W asked me “your game is at 7, right?” I replied “yes, but I can skip it if you want to go out to dinner for your birthday or something”. She said it was up to me, so I called my friend on the team and told him I wouldn’t be there.
I proposed we go to dinner at our old favorite Mexican restaurant in a town we lived in when we first met about 25 miles from our house…it is pretty much W’s favorite restaurant ever. She was excited. We got in the car and left. I have a MP3 disc in my car and it has “Poker Face” on it (don’t laugh), so every time the kids get in the car they want to hear “Poker Face” over and over and over. I told the kids I was getting kinda burnt out on it and they could listen to it just once and then suggested to W that she plug her iPhone in and she picks the music. Once “Poker Face” ended, she did that, and she picked a song, which turned out to be…. “Poker Face”! As soon as it came on she was watching for my reaction…I just started laughing and she was laughing really hard too. I think it was the first time since she’s been back that she joked around with me. Seems like a good thing to me. Dinner was great and then we had a fun ride home.
Monday night I had IC again. 2nd session with my new IC. I’m still not sure about her…she tells me she is amazed by the amount of insight I have into myself and my W. I don’t think there’s really a whole lot she can do for me at this point other than giving me someone to vent to. Although when I do that she tends to start to question W’s intentions, which tends to get me spun up. Fortunately it is about a 30 min drive home from her office so I can process things before I get home. She also brought up the idea that W could attend one of my IC sessions. I’m not sure about that one. Oh well, I’ll keep going…it does help me to vent and I think it is setting a good example for W and showing her that I am not resting on my laurels.
Tuesday night we did our usual Afghan takeout/watch Biggest Loser routine. When Biggest Loser was over, I asked W if she wanted to show me her dress that she’s wearing to the wedding in New Orleans this weekend. Much to my surprise, she said yes. When she came out my jaw nearly hit the floor…she looked great. I told her that I really like it…she complained that she didn’t have a bra that worked with it, as the one she was wearing showed a little bit…I told her that I thought that was hot. She then went back and changed. As soon as she left the room I was overcome by how good she looked in the dress…hard to describe the feeling, but it was good and I really felt happy for her because I think she knew in her mind that she looked good. When she came back we watched TV for a little while longer. While we were watching TV she was sitting closer to me than she has in a long time. Still no touching, but almost. It was getting late so I headed off to bed. On my way out of the room I stopped to tell her that she “really, really looked amazing in her dress”. She got a huge smile on her face and said “thanks”.
Last night I ended up falling asleep in D5’s bed during “cuddle time”. W has been sleeping with D5 almost every night. I woke up around midnight and since I had to get up early for work I moved into W and I’s bed where my alarm clock was and where W was sleeping. Didn’t say anything about it, just got into bed. So I wouldn’t say this was really a positive or negative thing, but at least she didn’t get up and leave or question me being there.
Something else I noticed this past week was that W has asked me for something she wants from me a couple of times. In our past she would not ask me for things and keep her needs bottled up which caused a lot of resentment. I think this is a big positive and I need to be hugely careful about how I respond to these requests...I think it may be the first baby steps toward her taking that first brick out of her wall.
So that’s the highlights of the past week. Still no giant steps, but it has really been quite awhile now since we had a negative interaction of any sort. We are still sleeping in separate beds and there’s been no R talk or physical touches. Part of me fears that we’re getting to used to living this way, but I honestly think we’re both in a much better place emotionally now than we were before the separation. W is going to New Orleans for our mutual friends’ wedding this weekend. She is really looking forward to seeing her old friends there. I’ll be plenty busy with the kids while she’s gone. I am planning to give her a Mother’s day card from me and one from the kids when we drop her off at the airport tomorrow afternoon.
I'm so happy for you and the progress you've made thus far. Friendship is important, and it seems like friendship is something you and your wife are genuinely working on. Bravo.
Keep it up and keep being one of our sources of inspiration!
hey Navy wanted to stop by and say good job man. We are pulling for you.
Sounds like you are sending her off with good memories, and that's the thing to do. I'm so glad that you were able to pull off the party without any expectations. Plus, when she set close to you, you didn't try to touch her. I know that has to be very difficult, but you are doing what seems to be working. The baby-steps in the beginning seems to be as hard as any giant step could be, but it is just as important too.
Keep up the good work!
Navy, man this sounds good. Baby steps, but it's obvious you guys still have a real connection. Stay focused on the positive brother, it really seems like it's headed in the right direction.
Just dropped W off at the airport...it was a little tough on me....probably because of my hopes/expectations. When I dropped her off she gave the kids big hugs and kisses, then walked to the curb. Nothing for me. I stood at the car and D5 rolled her window down to say goodbye again. Then W looked at me and said goodbye, very unemotionally. I told her to have fun and to say hi to all our friends for me. She then said thanks for staying with the kids so she could go on the trip, and then went on her way.
D5 got really upset and cried about how she didn't want mama to go. Brought back feelings of our airport scenes during the sep when I was having to say goodbye to her.
Not too upset now, but W's distance during the goodbye definitely bothered me. I think I handled it ok though.
Today W sent a text addressed to D5 to ask how her soccer game went. Here's how it went:
W: Hi d5, how was your soccer game?
M: she is taking a nap. The game was good, they had fun. How is new Orleans?
W: fun, but expensive. Glad they had fun at soccer.
M: glad you're having fun. Have a great time at the wedding tonight. Tell B & G congrats for me.
That was it....no reply from her after that.
W posted some pictures of herself at the wedding last night. Besides looking totally amazing, I noticed something else...she was wearing her ring.
A Good thing, I guess. 1st time I've seen her wear it since December. Pretty sure she won't be wearing it when she gets back though. Like I said before though, I don't expect her to wear it until she is ready to be "re-married".
she was wearing her ring.
It's a start. She must have felt more comfortable with it on than off. Baby steps..............
FF999
Update....
Had a great weekend with the kids. Lots of soccer.
Monday night I got a random text from W's best friend that she was in new Orleans with. It had a picture of W and read: "here's your beautiful wife. Thanks giving her this weekend and being understanding ;o)"
I replied: "she really looks great. Thanks for the pic and thank you for being such a good friend. Glad you guys are having a great time down there"
Friend replied: "you're welcome! Thanks for being such a great man. Ttys."
I left it at that. Frustrating that W's friend thinks I'm so great but W hasn't said anything like that to me.
W got back last night. She was pretty tired, but excited to see the kids. Didn't seem overly excited to see me though, which I pretty much expected. She did bring me back a cool tshirt from NOLA, which was nice of her. I guess I was maybe hoping that the trip would give her some time to think about us. Hard to say at this point, but W is still not wearing her ring and slept in D5s bed last night, so upon first glance, not much has changed.
Well, back to the grind...looking forward to my IC tonight.
IC was interesting the other night. She asked me about my past relationship experience, of which I have very little. I was too busy for girls in high school and chased the same girl for most of college, but never “got” her.
Made me realize I am in a somewhat similar position with my W. I am giving love and not getting it back. IC said that that must be agonizing. I said yes, it is. She told me I have a great capacity for my willingness to suffer for love, and wondered where I learned that. I don’t really know. I know I did it for 3 years during college…so I figure I’ve got a bit left in the tank for this go-around. In the back of my mind I was thinking that I might have never experienced true love, even with W. I guess I have no way of knowing….that is a painful thought.
Then we got on to the topic of W’s past. She had an abusive (emotional, physical, and sexual) childhood, which I did not really learn much about until a few years ago. W has never formally dealt with any of these issues. IC said that a lot of W’s anger toward me is probably a side-effect of her past. She said she is worried that I am suffering from “secondary abuse”, i.e. my W is treating me like I have abused her, even though it wasn’t me. I guess I had pretty much already figured this out on my own, but it was interesting to hear someone else say it.
At the end of the session she asked me if the sessions were helping me. I told her I don’t know. I don’t feel like I’m really learning anything I didn’t know before, but that it is helping me to be able to vent. IC tends to focus on the past, and I told her I want to focus on what’s happening now.
W has been pretty friendly the last few days. Wednesday night I went downstairs to play Rock Band…she came down and joined me and ended up telling me all about her trip to New Orleans. I’m still seeing the baby steps…sometimes I think they’re just going in a circle though.
Patience, patience, patience…
Navy,
Stay strong, they are baby steps and your doing great. As for the IC, even if its just to vent, it helps you go through the process and give you something else to think about.
Patience, patience, patience
Yes, let her walk in at her own pace.
Your IC and mine may have studied from the same text. Scylla posted something about abuse a few months ago. It reminded me of all the sexual harassment training I receive each year. My principal take away is “It is more about what is perceived than what is intended” I wish I could find the thread.
You are doing well, keep executing….no pressure.
I think this is what you were looking for JustStunned: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=2122631&Searchpage=1&Main=48675&Words=physical%2C+emotional%2C+medical+abusie&Search=true#Post2122631
Scylla, yes that was the post. Different thread, but the same post. Thank You.
Sorry for the thread jack Navy.
No problem, I learned something from SC's post...and I'll take the free bump anytime.
Things are still going ok with W...she's bouncing between warm and cold quite a bit, and I bounce between optimism and frustration (keeping it to myself, though).
I'll post a full update tomorrow...gotta run to IC now.
Update time:
I had a great weekend packed with GAL activities. I did a 9-hour mountain bike race on Saturday and then on Sunday I had a soccer game and Dragon Boat race practice (it’s like a giant canoe with 20 people in it, we’re racing this weekend). I had committed to these events before W decided to come back, so I was a bit nervous about leaving W at home with the kids for most of the weekend, since one of her past complaints was that I would do that.
When I talked to her before/during/after the weekend she seemed a little bit stressed out and distant, but overall things were still ok. I am trying to get off the AD meds I’ve been taking, so I have to be very careful not to backslide during this time.
My team ended up winning the mountain bike race. I didn’t get home until midnight on Saturday night, so I didn’t see W until Sunday morning. She told me congrats on winning the race, which was nice to hear.
Sunday we also all went to Chuck-E-Cheese together for D5’s friends’ birthday party. (Wow…just realized as I was typing this that on a previous thread I wrote that our whole family would go to Chuck-E-Cheese together again someday, and now it has happened. Funny how easy it is to focus on what’s missing in my M and overlook the positives these days). We all had a good time at CEC.
On the way home we passed by the community college that W is registering for. I asked her if her transcripts from her previous CC had come yet, because she has been waiting on them before she registers for classes so she would know what classes will transfer over to the new CC. She said yes they had come, but now the school wants her to register for classes before they will look at her transcripts for transfer credits. I suggested that she just sign up for classes and then change them based upon what transfers. She then told me classes start tomorrow (Monday), so she thought it was too late.
W has been on the fence between getting a job and going back to school, so then I asked her if she had called the Spouses’ employment program POC that I got for her awhile back. She said no, and that the number wasn’t in her phone anymore. She then told me that she doesn’t know what kind of job she could get that wouldn’t require putting the kids in daycare. At this point I was pretty frustrated, so I just listened and validated, and left it at that. I thought getting back into work or school was very important to W, but her actions seem to be saying otherwise.
Since Sunday, I have thought about what she said, and decided that I should reiterate my support for whatever she decides she wants to do. Last night before bed I told her this: “You know how we were talking about your school and work the other day? I just want to make sure you know that I will support whatever you want to do. I want you to be happy and I will do whatever I can to support whatever decision you make.” She said ok.
On to Monday. I had IC. My IC seems pretty convinced now that I am experiencing “Secondary Trauma” from W’s past. She really focuses on me…I guess she wants to make sure that I’m doing ok with the pain that I’ve chosen to put myself through by standing for my M. I understand and appreciate that, but I ended up leaving IC more frustrated than I was beforehand. Driving home from IC I thought about the whole weekend and how W had seemed distant the past few days. In the past, I would have gone home and pushed W’s buttons to get her to tell me why she’s not talking to me much. Instead, I decided that I would stop by the store on the way home to get W some flowers to thank her for making it possible for me to do all my GAL activities over the weekend. I gave her the flowers, said thanks and that I had a fun weekend, and she thanked me for them.
Later Monday night W asked me what I want to do for my birthday. I hadn’t really thought about it and wasn’t expecting her to ask, so I didn’t have an answer for her. It sounds like she's wanting to do something for me...but I don't want to ask for much at this point.
That’s the highlights of the last few days. I’ve been considering proposing a date night (dinner & movie) sometime soon. We’ll see how the next couple days go.
Navy, I think you are doing very good, keeping up your spirits through this hard time. I think that is very good. The more your wife sees you upbeat and happy, I think the good vibes might rub off on her.
Keep the good stuff going !
Blah...just realized it's been 8 months since I last ML. Not really important at this point, but still a pretty frustrating thing to think about.
I’m still seeing the baby steps…sometimes I think they’re just going in a circle though.
Patience, patience, patience…
Baby steps. Meaning small steps going forward, don't doubt it.
You got it right, its about patience and more patience. As hard and frustrating at times it may be, stick in there
Navy:
Nice to see you check in every once in awhile to let us all know how you are doing.
I imagine that as you and your W become closer you will experience some feelings of hurt and anger towards her because of the pain you have dealt with. In this regards I like your C approach to helping YOU deal with some of your feelings.
It seems like to me you are doing pretty well all things considered.
Stay the course and when you begin to waiver go back and read some of your original post, I think that would help keep you focus.
Thanks guys. 2step, you are right I went back and reread some of my old stuff. Definitely helps me keep perspective.
Here's the latest chapter...
Last Thursday was D5's preschool graduation. When I got home from work I wanted to take everyone out to celebrate. S2 was sitting on his toddler potty in the living room. We are working on potty-training him. I was excited to go to dinner because we were going to try a new pizza place that I heard was really good.
As we were getting ready, S2 was still sitting on his potty and watching TV. So, somewhat caught up in my excitement and also in-line with making the potty fun and exciting for him during his potty training, I walked over to him and poked him in his lower belly (I didn't touch "it") and said "pee-pee pee-pee pee-pee!!!!) to try to get him to go. W saw this and asked "did you just touch his pee-pee?" I said no, I didn't, and left it at that. I absolutely did not feel like I needed to defend myself to her for what I did.
On the way to the restaurant W had her 1000 yard stare on and wouldn't say a word to me. I asked her what was wrong and she told me that what I did to S2 was really creepy. At this point I got pissed because she's treating me like a child molester. I didn't want to get into it with her so I just said sorry and again left it at that.
W stayed pissed off for the rest of the night. After we got home and put the kids to bed I asked her why she was still pissed off. She again told me that what I did was creepy. I told her I didn't like her treating me like a child molester and that I think what I did is pretty normal and wasn't wrong. I told her that I think boys and girls are different when it comes to this. She then said "don't try to rationalize what you did, they say that's a big sign that there is something really wrong. All you rationalizing does is make me want to call my friends to ask them if i'm being unreasonable, and I'm guessing they won't think so. You can go ask your therapist or whatever about it and I'm sure she'll say the same thing". At this point I was really pissed (probably as mad as I've ever been at her) and I didn't want to blow up on her, so I just said I'm sorry, I understand where you're coming from, and I won't do it again. Then she says "don't think I'm overreacting to this because of my past". I told her I don't and that I won't do it again.
I had IC last night, and I was worried about bringing it up to the IC...because of W's reaction I was actually worried that I possibly might have done something wrong.
Well, at W's suggestion, I replayed the entire scenario to my IC. I believe I gave a very objective recap of the events. After I finished, IC was EXTREMELY adamant that I did nothing wrong...and said it to me multiple times. I even tried defending W's point of view and said that I don't want S2 to grow up and think it's ok to touch other people like that. IC said there's no chance in hell he could have thought that from what I did. I could tell IC was getting pissed off at W for the things she had said to me. IC basically started attacking W at this point, which was very hard for me to hear. IC then said that this ties back into the "secondary trauma" thing she has been talking about the past three weeks. Due to her past, W sometimes treats me like I am an abuser and a small part of me is actually starting to wonder if I actually did something that wrong. IC said there is a huge difference between being an abuser and not being a perfect husband.
IC then went on to say that if W doesn't go get professional help with her past, she'll likely never "turn" like I'm hoping she will.
Pretty tough IC session.
Now back to Sunday. W woke me up by bringing me breakfast in bed. Things pretty much went downhill from there. W was very cold and distant all day. Nothing but one-word answers to anything I asked her and she didn't initiate any convo with me all day. It wore on me all day but I didn't say anything to her until after dinner. I asked her why she is so mad. Her response: "I am tired and I think my monthly friend is coming". I told her that all day long she has been very cold to me and that I have been thinking that I did something wrong. She said no, I didn't.
I then told her that it is totally fine for her to have bad days, but given her past complaints about me not being there for her, if I have a choice between ignoring her/leaving her alone or trying hard to be there for her, I am going to err on the side of not making the same mistake I have in the past. She then told me I didn't need to try that hard. I then asked her to just let me know if she's having a crappy day. I have no problem giving her space if she asks for it, but it is very, very difficult to guess. I left it at that and then went to bed.
Last night (Monday) I got home and W was in a great mood. Very friendly and talkative.
What a roller-coaster ride this continues to be...
I told her that all day long she has been very cold to me and that I have been thinking that I did something wrong. She said no, I didn't.
That day could have gone better if you asked her sooner, huh?
Just saying.
Having a live-in is tough. It can be lonely when you have somoeone beside ou who is physically there but emotionally absent.
But its still better than being apart, I think. So I just count my blessings and tell myself not to be get into the coaster. This week my H has been a bit distant and cold, but I see him constantly observing me. Your W is observing you too. What I notice thoughthat while they do get vocal about "bad" things or complaints, they can be quiet about the good things we do but it doesn't mean that they are not filing that away in their memory banks!
I also have the same problem with my IC - she is so concerned about the pain I am willing to take on with regards to my stand, and has been pushing me to confront my H and get his committment to make the M work. I don't think my H is ready yet, and my IC makes me feel frustrated so I think I am not going to see her for a while.
I told her that all day long she has been very cold to me and that I have been thinking that I did something wrong. She said no, I didn't.
That day could have gone better if you asked her sooner, huh?
Just saying.
J3B,
Appreciate the feedback and i agree it probably would have made my day easier. But, I didn't want to ask for 3 reasons:
1. It could have initiated R talk.
2. I don't think she should treat me like crap because she's having a bad day. If she can be polite to the busboy at the restaurant, she can at least be cordial with me.
3. I don't feel like I should have to read her mind, or prod into why she's in a bad mood. If she is having a bad day, that is fine and I want to support her in any way I can, but why should I have to guess at what that might be?
2. I don't think she should treat me like crap because she's having a bad day. If she can be polite to the busboy at the restaurant, she can at least be cordial with me.
3. I don't feel like I should have to read her mind, or prod into why she's in a bad mood. If she is having a bad day, that is fine and I want to support her in any way I can, but why should I have to guess at what that might be?
No, she shouldn't treat you like crap. And no, you can't read her mind. Which is why you say something non-threatening or judgmental like 'it looks like you are having a bad day, is there anything I can do?'
Then again, if I could remember my own advice
Well, as of today, I am 32 years old. Hopefully this year goes better than year 31 did.
Happy birthday! Yes, we can *all* hope our next years are better than our current.
Happy Birthday Navy!
Yes, we can *all* hope make our next years are better than our current.
Fixed
Yes, I should know better by now
Happy Birthday Navy. Jeez, only 32, how I wish...............
FF999
Just had a talk with W. I know I'm not supposed to be doing R talk, but that really doesn't seem to be working at this point.
I asked her how she is doing. She started by saying that she still feels like her life is on hold for others...and that there's been roadblocks to her getting back into school. I asked her if she thought I was causing any of the roadblocks. She said no. I asked if there was anything more I could be doing to help. She said no.
Then we talked about us. She reiterated that she's just back for the kids' sake. (I still don't truly understand how this could be possible). Then told me that sometimes she feels like she's doing things that she doesn't want to because I ask her to and she doesn't want to hurt my feelings by saying no. I asked her why she feels that way...she said it was because of the past. I told her itsmnot going to hurt my feelings at all.
Then I asked her what she thinks my goal is. She said I want to fix things. I told her that I want us to emotionally connect...where we can share our feelings with each other and not feel judged. I told her I don't think we've ever had that...not her fault or mine...but neither of us knew any better.
Then I jumped back to the previous topic. I told her while I do appreciate her not wanting to hurt my feelings when she wants to tell me no but she doesn't, that is not what I want, because it does not support my goal, it only causes more resentment in her. I told her that the few times she's actually asked me for something since she got back made me feel really good...it was easy to give her what she needed when she asked for it.
Not a bad talk I guess. Still [censored] to hear the "I'm only here for the kids" line 2 1/2 months after she came back though. Seems that she still has no interest in actively working on our marriage either.
Tomorrow's another day...
Navy: I think you are doing a good job on keeping the spirits up and not rocking the boat, so to speak.
I asked her how she is doing. She started by saying that she still feels like her life is on hold for others...and that there's been roadblocks to her getting back into school. I asked her if she thought I was causing any of the roadblocks. She said no. I asked if there was anything more I could be doing to help. She said no.
I dont want to jinx or spook you, but this is how exactly how our conversations were going before wife decided to bail out.
My wife always felt that she was not living the life for her, that she was living it for others. Just a month before she filed, i asked her what i could do to make our marriage better and she said 'nothing'.
The good thing is that unlike me, you are aware of these things and you have the help of this forum. For me, i was going at it blindly.
Keep the good work going man!
Karma...thanks for the advice...i am doing my best. It is incredibly hard though.
Had a pretty big backslide today. This morning I asked W to go to the park with kids and I. She told me her back hurts. Things have been wearing on me lately and I reacted to her...didn't say anything, but I walked around the house in a bit of a fuss. She picked up on it right away and got pissed herself. I tried talking to her about it but she just got more mad. Then she ended up leaving the house, and I left shortly after to take the kids to the park. When I got home she had moved all of her stuff out of our room and into the basement.
This led into a long R talk, where she reminded me that she is done and is only here for the kids. We ended up talking about what the arrangement is going to be with her downstairs. It's basically going to be I don't ask her to do anything....she said she feels pressured into doing things when I ask and worries I will get upset if she tells me no (like I did today).
I also had IC this afternoon. She thinks W's actions today were childish. I again tried to defend W and explain her perspective. IC didn't buy into it....so again I left more upset. I don't think that IC gets the idea of wanting to be married more than wanting to be right.
Very Painful day. Thinking maybe I went off the AD meds too soon....pretty much back to square one with W too.
Had a pretty big backslide today. This morning I asked W to go to the park with kids and I. She told me her back hurts. Things have been wearing on me lately and I reacted to her...didn't say anything, but I walked around the house in a bit of a fuss. [bold] She picked up on it right away and got pissed herself. I tried talking to her about it but she just got more mad[/bold]. Then she ended up leaving the house, and I left shortly after to take the kids to the park. When I got home she had moved all of her stuff out of our room and into the basement.
Oh man we had some of these. Looking back now, it seemed like we had gotten to a point where both of us were walking on eggshells. We had a closer connection before things started going bad and we lost it. Somehow we could not ignite those feelings. In our case my wife used to take off the wedding ring and give it back to me.
It's basically going to be I don't ask her to do anything....she said she feels pressured into doing things when I ask and worries I will get upset if she tells me no (like I did today).
My wife too got to a point where she said that she started worrying about conversations with me. I think the moment conversations with your mate become stress events the detachment starts. You might have to do things to reduce that emotional distance with her. For me it was hard to do as i slowly started resenting wife. So watch out for those negative feelings that might start creeping up. Look at the big picture.
For almost 6 months we had this weird pattern that once in 2 weeks on a friday we would have an argument and things would go back to square-1. Its normal. You are trying the best you can to keep the family together. Don't be too harsh on yourself. Right now you've got to keep your spirits high because you cannot expect positive encouragement from your wife.
In our case my wife used to take off the wedding ring and give it back to me.
Well, at least I don't have to worry about that. My W isn't wearing her ring at all.
My wife too got to a point where she said that she started worrying about conversations with me.
I feel like she doesn't even care at this point...I'm the one that's always worried about talking to her.
So watch out for those negative feelings that might start creeping up. Look at the big picture.
That was exactly my problem...the negative feelings built up until I became visibly upset with her. I've been really good at focusing on the big picture up until yesterday.
For almost 6 months we had this weird pattern that once in 2 weeks on a friday we would have an argument and things would go back to square-1.
W and I already went through something similar for about a year and a half prior to her leaving. To her, that was when she was trying to save our marriage. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, and I would take her temperature every couple weeks as soon as I saw some positive signs, which just started the cycle all over again. Since she left back in January, she has maintained that she is done and doesn't see the point in trying anymore.
How can I overcome that????? I know I have time, but she even told me yesterday that the things I do for her which used to make her feel loved don't make her feel loved when I do them now. She will not let herself feel loved by me.
Wow Navyguy,
My sitch is very similar to yours, although my history is somewhat different.
I understand your situation and will continue to follow this thread.
Looks like you haven't detached. Try to avoid suggesting any common activities for a while. Does she ever suggest doing something together as a family or is everything initiated by you?
W and I already went through something similar for about a year and a half prior to her leaving. To her, that was when she was trying to save our marriage. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, and I would take her temperature every couple weeks as soon as I saw some positive signs, which just started the cycle all over again. Since she left back in January, she has maintained that she is done and doesn't see the point in trying anymore.
How can I overcome that????? I know I have time, but she even told me yesterday that the things I do for her which used to make her feel loved don't make her feel loved when I do them now. She will not let herself feel loved by me.
oh...I am sorry you have already been on this path before.
There's one thing i learnt from our relationship. I spent about 6 months, trying to make my wife happy, not rock the boat, be more loving to her, going to therapy myself. But the whole time i believe the problem was with US, not just ME. So i wish i encouraged my wife to go to some kind of marriage counseling with me. In your case you wife is already declaring that she is only there for the kids.
Before you become strangers to each other in your own home, you might have to seek more advice where you ignite that spark back in your relationship. I have been on the IC path. If your spouse is not co-operating, then going to IC will just increase the hurt more because you will start learning that wife is not doing anything for the relationship. I dunno, seek out her family or your family's help. Or start a new topic and ask some veterans here for advice.
but she even told me yesterday that the things I do for her which used to make her feel loved don't make her feel loved when I do them now.
IMO she is telling you it makes her feel pressured. Several of the last few posts seem to go in this direction.
Stop anything she perceives as pressure. She said she came back for the kids. Make it about the kids and only the kids. Keep the road paved and smooth, but stop looking down it for her approach. Either, it’ll sneak up on her and her heart will soften or it won’t.
It is her choice to let it.
JS: I like the advice. But i wonder. so if everything is done just for the kids, overtime there's nothing much left between husband and wife. They would have become strangers , right?
I am saying it out of my own experience. See somedays i used to feel this incredible love for my wife and would want to express it, but somehow we lost that closeness between us that even i did express it, to my wife it felt hollow. If the spouse does not see or care that the other spouse is making this effort, then distance will develop and all the effort will go waste because over time they will slowly seperate... I dunno, i could be talking crazy....
Man, who said rocket science was hard...those guys should experience this mess. This is harder than rocket science
MK I don't know either, but it seems to me these are the blocks NG has been given to work with for the time being.
It is something they can work on together. It is not an 80% solution, but it is better.
I hear "Don't let best get in the way of better" Better can be an incremental step to best
GAL is becoming the person only a fool would leave.
Even if we think they aren't paying attention, they ARE watching us.
So in the end... (or beginning), there is a possibility that they realize they do NOT want to be that fool...
And that... changes the whole ball game...
But i wonder. so if everything is done just for the kids, overtime there's nothing much left between husband and wife. They would have become strangers , right?
Sounds to me like they are practically strangers now. Only thing that changes is that you are making the kids the priority and not the M.
Man, who said rocket science was hard...those guys should experience this mess.
Rocket Science is Easy Compared to this that's for sure.
Navy:
Sorry to see things turning for you in a negative way. This is a looooooooong process and the success rate from what I can tell is very low. In the end though if you can continue to do what you have to do and take the higher road your kids will be better and you will be better.
Hi Navy, You asked me to look in so here I am...
I read your first thread and this one and a few posts in between. Hope I didn't miss anything big.
It sounds as if your C has a good point, you are suffering for the sins of other men in your w's past. Also, statistically most women report their lowest marital satisfaction about 2 years after the birth of their 2nd child...just sayin'
But essentially, isn't she saying "I will stay m to you for now, but I will never let go of the past or forgive, and I will hold the past 'sins' against you even if it isnt' you I'm angry at..."?? IS that it, in brief?
Just had a talk with W. I know I'm not supposed to be doing R talk, but that really doesn't seem to be working at this point.
I asked her how she is doing. She started by saying that she still feels like her life is on hold for others...and that there's been roadblocks to her getting back into school.
Her indecision and possible depression are the obstacles.You are not responsible. Don't pretend to be or she'll be enabled to wallow in her despair and indecisiveness.
I asked her if she thought I was causing any of the roadblocks. She said no. I asked if there was anything more I could be doing to help. She said no.
Then we talked about us. She reiterated that she's just back for the kids' sake. (I still don't truly understand how this could be possible).
If she thinks that's why, that's why...(for all intents and purposes) Perception is reality...for now.
Then told me that sometimes she feels like she's doing things that she doesn't want to because I ask her to and she doesn't want to hurt my feelings by saying no. I asked her why she feels that way...she said it was because of the past. I told her itsmnot going to hurt my feelings at all.
So she was pathologically conflict avoidant?? And still doesn't have to speak up for herself? If so, then you have to become a better mind reader...good luck with that.
Then I asked her what she thinks my goal is. She said I want to fix things. I told her that I want us to emotionally connect...where we can share our feelings with each other and not feel judged. I told her I don't think we've ever had that...not her fault or mine...but neither of us knew any better.
Then I jumped back to the previous topic. I told her while I do appreciate her not wanting to hurt my feelings when she wants to tell me no but she doesn't, that is not what I want, because it does not support my goal, it only causes more resentment in her. I told her that the few times she's actually asked me for something since she got back made me feel really good...it was easy to give her what she needed when she asked for it.
Not a bad talk I guess. Still [censored] to hear the "I'm only here for the kids" line 2 1/2 months after she came back though. Seems that she still has no interest in actively working on our marriage either.
Tomorrow's another day...
Do you feel as if your approach is working? If not, why not do something different? Have you read "No More Mr Nice Guy"? I haven't but a lot of guys have and they highly recommend it.
Also the Five Love Languages, which I found very helpful is a good one. Thing is, you can change the dynamics of the R to an extent without her, but you are going on almost a year of no ML and she seems depressed to me, does she get c for that?
Also why are you getting off the ADs? I ask b/c you began to and then the R talk and antsyness seemed to come up.
But then again, that's reasonable, given the circumstances.
I don't see anything for you to do except change your approach. You sound like an insightful kind man with a good brain...and a wife in some sort of crisis.
BUT please...listen carefully to my next comments...
As a former JAG officer with experience defending men accused of abuse, (sometimes falsely) her near allegation of sex abuse, is a huge red flag to me.
It ruins careers and lives...and she has issues...make sure you document the "incident" you discussed with the IC...and beware.
You have a lot more to worry about living together than she does. She is projecting her issues onto you, and transferring her victimhood onto the kids.
Oh, the actual phrase is "Do you want to be right or HAPPY", (not right or "married"...) and
that's an important distinction. Make sense?
25, thanks for giving me some of your time. I hope you know how appreciated you are by all of us on this board.
But essentially, isn't she saying "I will stay m to you for now, but I will never let go of the past or forgive, and I will hold the past 'sins' against you even if it isnt' you I'm angry at..."?? IS that it, in brief?
I think that is what she is basically saying, but in her mind there is no "if it isn't me she's angry at". She is totally convinced that I am the problem. She seems to vehemently refuse to put 2 and 2 together and see how her past affected her and my actions over the years.
Her indecision and possible depression are the obstacles.You are not responsible. Don't pretend to be or she'll be enabled to wallow in her despair and indecisiveness.
I agree. I think I have probably taken validating too far to where I have started to enable her. That is why I MUST avoid the R talk...anytime I try to defend myself, she pulls all the skeletons (i.e. times where I did screw up as a husband/father and I can't defend my actions) out of the closet which reopens all the old wounds. IC told me the other day "there is no way I can win with this woman"...IC actually said she is "bullying" me.
So she was pathologically conflict avoidant?? And still doesn't have to speak up for herself? If so, then you have to become a better mind reader...good luck with that.
Yes, and I think her conflict avoidance trait comes from her childhood. Her dad was a tyrant and she learned to keep him happy at all costs, or there would be consequences. I have brought up how she doesn't ask me for what she wants/needs many times in the past and her responses are "that is not who I am" and "I don't think I should have to do that". And when I do bring that up, she sees it as me blaming her. Her friends have even told her she needs to speak up more....it seems that she just can't.
Funny you mention the mind reading. I took the CPI 260 personality test a few months ago. My empathy (reading other people's emotions/feelings) score was off the chart (like 99+ percentile). For some reason I can't seem to make that work with W though.
Do you feel as if your approach is working? If not, why not do something different?
I thought it was working pretty well until the R talk the other day. It feels like no matter what I do we're not going to get to where I want to go unless W starts dealing with her past.
Have you read "No More Mr Nice Guy"? I haven't but a lot of guys have and they highly recommend it.
I have not, but I will check it out.
Also the Five Love Languages, which I found very helpful is a good one. Thing is, you can change the dynamics of the R to an extent without her, but you are going on almost a year of no ML and she seems depressed to me, does she get c for that?
I have read 5LL. W's is acts of service, and I have been focusing on that. W went to counseling 3 sessions before the separation. No idea what they talked about but I'm almost certain they didn't get into her past. No professional C at all since then and I'm pretty sure her two main confidants (both of which she has known for less than 4 years) have no idea what she's been through in the past.
Also why are you getting off the ADs? I ask b/c you began to and then the R talk and antsyness seemed to come up.
I already did that math in my head too. Already back on the ADs as of yesterday. I haven't had any noticable side effects from them and it appears they did prevent me from reacting as strongly to her.
I don't see anything for you to do except change your approach. You sound like an insightful kind man with a good brain...and a wife in some sort of crisis.
Thanks for the compliments, it really means a lot to hear that. As far as my approach goes, I'm going to try to do the "loving pullback", meaning I will be a nice as I can to her, but I will initiate as little as possible with her. That is basically what she is asking for anyways. Who knows...maybe's she's subconciously asking me for what she needs to save our M.
BUT please...listen carefully to my next comments...
As a former JAG officer with experience defending men accused of abuse, (sometimes falsely) her near allegation of sex abuse, is a huge red flag to me.
Couldn't agree more...and as an Naval Officer I've had to deal with similar issues for some of my troops.
make sure you document the "incident" you discussed with the IC...and beware.
I figure that between posting here, talking to my IC, and keeping a journal on my computer at work, I'm in good shape. Is that a safe assumption?
and transferring her victimhood onto the kids.
That was my biggest concern during the separation and probably still would be if we end up splitting up. She is a great mom, but I think that is because we are great parents together..."united we stand, divided we fall". She thinks we can just teach them by simply telling them the right things. I told her that I totally disagree with that...they will learn much more from our actions.
Oh, the actual phrase is "Do you want to be right or HAPPY", (not right or "married"...) and that's an important distinction. Make sense?
Are you sure it's not "be married or be happy"?
It is a very important distinction...makes perfect sense.
Funny you mention the mind reading. I took the CPI 260 personality test a few months ago. My empathy (reading other people's emotions/feelings) score was off the chart (like 99+ percentile). For some reason I can't seem to make that work with W though.
Empathy comes with a lot of emotional push/pull, in order to draw things out.
Under normal circumstances, there is no resistance. But in some instances, the person being read pulls back and shuts down when fear and/or anger sets in.
That is where your W likely is. She's shutting it down, because she is aware of your ability to empathize. She is loathe for you to be "right" about her feelings and thoughts, so she is doing her own "180s", causing confusion in you.
Alternately, your own emotional super-awareness is likely interfering with your ability to empathize with her, specifically.
Combine those two things and the results are...? You will ALWAYS be wrong when it comes to her.
NG -a few thoughts on top of what MC has said.
1. If the ADs aren't working for you, try a different one. I'd really suggest you see a Psychiatrist for this most GPs just don't have the knowledge base (I know this is a general assumption)
Studies show that the two main reasons people go off ADs are because of the side effects or they start to feel better so they think the don't need them anymore.
2. On thing that struck me in your thread is your need to ask W to come along to do things. I think you are kinda setting yourself up. There are ways to ask without asking, but more so let her decide on her own. In my situation I almost never ask my W to come along. I might say I'm taking the kids to the park" if she wants to go she can speak up. Or I will speak in generalities and let her fill in the gap. Like, "I'd kinda like to get outside this weekend."
Sometimes I will just go outside and play with my boys in the yard,that usually draws her out.
Although my W is different in that 99% of the time she will go. We end up doing a lot of things as a family.
I will add that I don't use this approach to try to trick my W into going along. I do it because I want to go to the park with my boys - nothing more.
Navy,
I'm fine with your present protection about the past "non abuse" incident. I am NOT fine with you going forward with her, and not getting some protection.
She will allege this again. She's not well.
She needs help and you cannot give it to her. Maybe she can get counselling under the guise of career advice, but someone has to get through to her (not you).She has big time baggage. I hope her abuse was not the result of "recovered memories" b/c those have been discredited in my circles. (I used to specialize in this area of the law, much to my dismay).
Back to the m...
Is it true that You've owned up to what you were/did. If that's true, then today's problems are on her, not you.
Okay then, don't let her keep YOU in the past. No more apologies for the past.
You can CALMLY say "W, I'm done apologizing for the past and the behaviors I have changed. I won't be forced to live in the past (so you can feel like a victim forever). I'm focussed on today and from this day forward...hope you'll join me in the present"...that may sound too harsh or real, so adjust it as you see fit.
But the point remains the same, she's wallowing in false martyrdom and blame.
You are enabling her to abuse you and I seriously worry about her skewed view of things.
What do you want from this M now?
Do you have any boundaries?
Assume she will never want to ML again, with you. Assume things continue indefinitely, and she wants to be "just roomies", oh EXCEPT she gets to harp on you about parenting, and she does not have to pay half the rent, or work or go to school AND she gets to whine about it...
sometimes implicitly blaming you now and then...
and one who has a good chance of falsely accusing you of a crime against your kids, which will at least get you to LOSE them, or requires "supervised visits" and she'd get them full time....at your expense...
BUT a lot of false allegations get recanted when the w's realize that the dinner plate gets broken with those claims b/c the soldier goes to JAIL and the money STOPS...ooops TOO LATE...
but your wife actually believes this stuff. She is NOT WELL...
--NG, I had maybe 6-7 really innocent clients out of 300....they were ALL accused of child sex abuse.
Granted, 75 of the other guys were guilty as sin. But of the innocent men I represented, that was the crime alleged.
I lost 2 cases of truly innocent men, who got 20 year sentences...I cried when the sentence was given out and to this day, I don't know what I could have done differently from a strategic lawyer viewpoint...still haunts me.
I'm so sorry to ask this, but how's that feel as a future for you?
1. If the ADs aren't working for you, try a different one. I'd really suggest you see a Psychiatrist for this most GPs just don't have the knowledge base (I know this is a general assumption)
Studies show that the two main reasons people go off ADs are because of the side effects or they start to feel better so they think the don't need them anymore.
I think what I was on was working well. I was trying to go off them because I was feeling better and was afraid I wasn't being my "real self".
2. On thing that struck me in your thread is your need to ask W to come along to do things. I think you are kinda setting yourself up. There are ways to ask without asking, but more so let her decide on her own. In my situation I almost never ask my W to come along. I might say I'm taking the kids to the park" if she wants to go she can speak up. Or I will speak in generalities and let her fill in the gap. Like, "I'd kinda like to get outside this weekend."
Sometimes I will just go outside and play with my boys in the yard,that usually draws her out.
Although my W is different in that 99% of the time she will go. We end up doing a lot of things as a family.
I will add that I don't use this approach to try to trick my W into going along. I do it because I want to go to the park with my boys - nothing more.
I agree that I need to try this approach. We'll see how it goes. If nothing else it will be better for me.
I'm fine with your present protection about the past "non abuse" incident. I am NOT fine with you going forward with her, and not getting some protection.
What kind of protection do I need going forward? I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to.
She needs help and you cannot give it to her. Maybe she can get counselling under the guise of career advice, but someone has to get through to her (not you).
I've been trying to figure this one out for years now. She seems to be staying away from anyone that might even slightly suggest that her past is still affecting her...I don't think she's been talking to her family about the sitch at all.
She has big time baggage. I hope her abuse was not the result of "recovered memories"
I just googled "recovered memories". I'm pretty sure that is not what's going on here. She has always been burdened with her past...but I don't think the anger was directed at me until a few years ago.
Back to the m...
Is it true that You've owned up to what you were/did. If that's true, then today's problems are on her, not you.
I have and I agree.
Okay then, don't let her keep YOU in the past. No more apologies for the past.
You can CALMLY say "W, I'm done apologizing for the past and the behaviors I have changed. I won't be forced to live in the past (so you can feel like a victim forever). I'm focussed on today and from this day forward...hope you'll join me in the present"...that may sound too harsh or real, so adjust it as you see fit.
But the point remains the same, she's wallowing in false martyrdom and blame.
I'll do my best. I think avoiding R talk at all costs will definitely help. Funny you mentioned martyrdom...I told her she was being a martyr (and tried explaining it to her) about a year ago. That didn't go over well at all...and has been thrown back in my face on numerous occasions since.
What do you want from this M now?
I want to feel loved and appreciated. I want to be respected for my strengths instead of resented for them. I want my children to see what an open, loving marriage looks like and I want them to grow up in a house with their mom
and dad.
Do you have any boundaries?
I know I don't want to live like this forever...I haven't really put a timeline to that though.
Assume she will never want to ML again, with you. Assume things continue indefinitely, and she wants to be "just roomies", oh EXCEPT she gets to harp on you about parenting, and she does not have to pay half the rent, or work or go to school AND she gets to whine about it...
sometimes implicitly blaming you now and then...
Pretty much my life for the past 2 years.
and one who has a good chance of falsely accusing you of a crime against your kids, which will at least get you to LOSE them, or requires "supervised visits" and she'd get them full time....at your expense...
BUT a lot of false allegations get recanted when the w's realize that the dinner plate gets broken with those claims b/c the soldier goes to JAIL and the money STOPS...ooops TOO LATE...
but your wife actually believes this stuff. She is NOT WELL...
--NG, I had maybe 6-7 really innocent clients out of 300....they were ALL accused of child sex abuse.
Granted, 75 of the other guys were guilty as sin. But of the innocent men I represented, that was the crime alleged.
I lost 2 cases of truly innocent men, who got 20 year sentences...I cried when the sentence was given out and to this day, I don't know what I could have done differently from a strategic lawyer viewpoint...still haunts me.
I'm so sorry to ask this, but how's that feel as a future for you?
Not good. Not good at all. Right now I still think that the risk of that happening is low enough that I am willing to take the risk in order to save my M. I will definitely not forget this and let my guard down though.
Thanks again for the help.
Empathy comes with a lot of emotional push/pull, in order to draw things out.
Under normal circumstances, there is no resistance. But in some instances, the person being read pulls back and shuts down when fear and/or anger sets in.
That is where your W likely is. She's shutting it down, because she is aware of your ability to empathize. She is loathe for you to be "right" about her feelings and thoughts, so she is doing her own "180s", causing confusion in you.
Alternately, your own emotional super-awareness is likely interfering with your ability to empathize with her, specifically.
Combine those two things and the results are...? You will ALWAYS be wrong when it comes to her.
Very interesting. Never thought about it that way. Any idea how to overcome this?
Well, I'm now on day 3 of the new approach. W has been pretty cold to me since our talk last week. Lots of one word responses. I'm doing well not reacting to her.
It is extremely difficult to figure out when and how to talk to her. I almost feel like I can't win...if I completely don't talk to her she gets mad, but if I do talk to her, I usually get the quick, annoyed response.
It is extremely difficult to figure out when and how to talk to her
.
Figure what's best for you then, when you
need to talk, talk.
I almost feel like I can't win...if I completely don't talk to her she gets mad, but if I do talk to her, I usually get the quick, annoyed response.
NG,
how she repsonses to the convo is her feeling. Let her feelings be hers. If you know in your mind you're doing the right thing then how she repsonds is her choice.
Don't get caught up in her emotions and actions.
give it time, navy... remember... marathon...
I found that NC ultimately removed the emotional outbursts and opened the door for a softened communication when it finally occurred.
Yes, I have moved much further away now and my W can't keep tabs on me now. And her emails to me are no longer harsh or blunt, they are starting to include things like her personal, social calendar and hoping I'm doing well...
She's missing me... I need to keep letting her, because she's no where NEAR rational and civil conversations about R. I remain otherwise distant. On perhaps only 1/3 of my emails to her am I including well wishes back to her or joking about the weather, or some such.
Well, so far so good with the changed approach.
Friday night after we put the kids to bed, I went out back and made a fire in our fire pit. I just sat there and enjoyed the night. About 30 minutes later, W came outside. She ended up sitting there with me for about 2 more hours. We just sat and talked...no R talk at all, just having a good time.
Saturday, we had D5's soccer game and then a birthday party for a friend of D5.
Sunday, W suggested we all go see Kung Fu Panda 2. We got lunch first and had fun at the movie. I really enjoyed the movie...it had a overall message of "the past doesn't matter...your life will be what you make of it from today forward". Pretty fitting for a lot of us here. Maybe it made W think a little bit too...who knows.
IC tonight. Should be another fun one.
hang in there... DB techniques rarely work in a matter of days...
besides, she did suggest the movie so that's a positive. I'll post more later.
Take care
Having a tough day today. W continues to be very short and unfriendly with me. The one word answers are really wearing on me. IC was actually good last night. Lots of talk about how I feel about W now. Also talked about how I probably never got what I needed from our M because I didn't know any better...and instead of bringing it up to W, I protested in other ways which were pushing W and I apart.
Also talked about how I probably never got what I needed from our M because I didn't know any better...and instead of bringing it up to W, I protested in other ways which were pushing W and I apart.
wow you hit on the target for me too.
I was always passive in my marriage. Problem with that was that i got passive aggressive and just brought myself down emotionally. Now i wish i was more assertive, been more satisfied and hence more stronger emotionally.
But look on the bright side. You know whats wrong. Now there's one more area you can work on yourself. It is never too late
guess my post dropped...
Navy, you had a good weekend, and then she pulled back. This is NOT unusual.
It's a 2 step forward, 1 back...or it's not. But you did have a good weekend so, all I can say is to try to see a bit more of the big picture.
If you get a chance, read the article by laura Munson on "Those Aren't Fighting Words"...
It may help you see this in a different way. SOME of it may apply.
If you get a chance, read the article by laura Munson on "Those Aren't Fighting Words"...
It may help you see this in a different way. SOME of it may apply.
GREAT article 25.
Agree...it really was a good article. DBing at its finest, although it doesn't address owning your own past mistakes. If I told my wife "I don't buy that", she'd think I was calling her a liar. So like you said 25, SOME of it applies.
Last night was a really good night. I had soccer practice after work so I got home a bit late. When I got home W had dinner ready and she was in a really good mood. Dinner was great (I made sure to tell her and thank her) and then we put the kids in bed.
After that we were sitting on the couch watching TV and she asked if I wanted to watch a movie. She had bought "Just Go With It" yesterday and we watched it together. It was a really good movie. After that, I got ready for bed and said "have a good night" to her and she said it back...and the way she said it was really nice.
So, yeah, it was a good night.
Good to hear Navy,
Didn't that article also say she had an internal deadline for how long she could deal with it?
I thought she did. Anyhow, you probably need to know there's a light of some sort, at the end of this tunnel.
Maybe that will help you get through this and at some point she'll have to make a choice.
What can you do? Exactly what you are doing. DBing as best you can, showing the changes you've made and being as consistent as you can be.
Someday soon, If she blurts out inappropriately or critisizes you, you might reply that you are NOT her abuser/ (name the guy who was if you know) and say
"I'm not 'X' and don't want to be treated as if I am".
That's only if she throws that out. But someday she'll have to know this. I can't see a way around this issue-in the long run.
Your approach remains the same though so stay focussed on that. I just want you to be ready for her bad days & calling her on it, in the moment.
You are doing well! Keep at it.
If you get a chance, read the article by laura Munson on "Those Aren't Fighting Words"...
Really nice article 25. In these situations, i think you need to have patience, trust in your actions and give the benefit of doubt to your spouse to see if they can see the light.
Wow...all the way down to page 11 since I last posted.
Nothing really new to report here. My brother visited this week, and we had a good time. His take on my sitch lines up with what everyone here and my IC has been telling me. W is in Kansas this weekend to attend her friends baby shower, been having fun with the kids.
I'm hanging in there...the sitch continues to wear on me though.
Rough day here...W has been pretty unpleasant since she got back from Kansas. I'll post a full update tomorrow...not sure how much longer I can keep this up...the hurt is getting pretty bad.
Well, it has been a couple weeks since I provided a proper update. It has now been 6 months since our big pre-Christmas blowup and the beginning of our separation.
My biggest concern right now is our little interactions. It seems that she is very intent on showing me that she doesn’t love me and almost disapproves of me loving her.
Here’s some examples:
Every morning when I leave for work I tell her “see you tonight” and her response is always “ok”. Usually I’ll respond to that with “have a good day” and she typically doesn’t say anything back.
Any time I ask her how she’s doing or how her day was, her response is “all right”. That’s it. No follow ups, no asking me how my day was, nothing.
Most times when I try to have a conversation with her, it seems that she tries to end it as quickly as possible.
Now here’s the real kicker…if I pull back and don’t initiate these pleasantries or conversations, she assumes that I am upset with her and she gets mad because I am being “the same old Navyguy” by walking around the house “in a mood”.
How the he|| do I break this cycle??? Whether I’m nice or I pull away, I end up feeling like crap, and it doesn’t seem to affect how W treats me at all.
Now on to some specifics:
W seemed to enjoy her trip to Kansas. I didn’t initiate any contact with her the entire time she was gone. She texted me to tell me she arrived there, and the only time I heard from her while she was there was on Father’s day when she left a voicemail to tell me happy father’s day. She didn’t do anything else for me for father’s day…I guess I was at least expecting a card from the kids or something. But yesterday she told me that she had gotten me a gift and a couple cards and she meant to give them to me before her trip but she couldn’t find where she put the cards.
Awhile ago I signed W and I up for a Retrouvaille session in the middle of July. On Friday, I got a call from the coordinator asking for the deposit, because I hadn’t sent it in yet. I hadn’t asked W yet if she was interested in going, but I had to let the coordinator know one way or another, so I asked her about it last night. I asked in what I thought was a very nice/disarming way. I said: “I held a spot for us in an upcoming marriage retreat weekend and I need to let the guy know if we’re attending. If you aren’t interested that is fine or if you want to find out more about it I will give you the name of it and you can decide after you have read about it”. W immediately replied that she was not interested.
On the more positive side of things, W made a small physical contact with me last Thursday. We were putting the kids to bed and W’s back was hurting so she got out her massager while I was reading the kids their story. After the story, W and the kids all laid in bed while I massaged their backs with the massager…mostly focused on W, of course. After that I laid down between the kids and W started giving me a scalp massage. This was something she always used to do and I really loved it. It didn’t last very long and I think she was just doing it to show the kids how to do it, but it was sure nice while it lasted.
Anyways, I’m planning to keep the good fight going. W is starting school next Monday. I think I need to keep up better with my journaling here. It does seem to help me stay focused on the positives when I write them down.
Now here’s the real kicker…if I pull back and don’t initiate these pleasantries or conversations, she assumes that I am upset with her and she gets mad because I am being “the same old Navyguy” by walking around the house “in a mood”.
How the he|| do I break this cycle??? Whether I’m nice or I pull away, I end up feeling like crap, and it doesn’t seem to affect how W treats me at all.
Hey Navy, good to hear from you.
Here are a few thoughts.
I think you can show you’re not “in a mood” and pull back some at the same time. My suggestion, KIDS. Focus on the kids. Play with them. Laugh with them. I am not saying you are not already doing this, but I am saying if you put your focus on them, and not your W, she might see more of what she will miss out on.
My other thought is a question. What have you been doing for you? Do you go out? Any activities? Teams? Organizations? Get out and do stuff.
I guess to break it down. When at the house. Kids, kids, kids.
Also get out of the house. Do fun and interesting things.
Don’t forget the basics of all of this. 180’s. GAL. Stop pursuing.
Now here’s the real kicker…if I pull back and don’t initiate these pleasantries or conversations, she assumes that I am upset with her and she gets mad because I am being “the same old Navyguy” by walking around the house “in a mood”.
I keep finding a lot similarities in your sitch and mine in 2009.
Now your wife has been clear about staying in for the kids not the marriage. However the outcome of this dysfunctional situation will affect both of you soon and then the kids.
What i am saying is that this situation you are in. It is not a stable state. Someone is gonna give in here. I dunno, maybe you can site down with her and try to explain that in the long term your current situation might affect the kids. And might be you can try 're-dicovering' each other again.
Just a thought.
You know R talks are bad right?
I mean everyone says it.
Most times when I try to have a conversation with her, it seems that she tries to end it as quickly as possible.
Now here’s the real kicker…if I pull back and don’t initiate these pleasantries or conversations, she assumes that I am upset with her and she gets mad because I am being “the same old Navyguy” by walking around the house “in a mood”.
Want to change something?
Tell her that.
Nicely.
Ask her how she wants you to interact with her.
I know...I know its like an R talk.
but, its something different.
Well, it has been a couple weeks since I provided a proper update. It has now been 6 months since our big pre-Christmas blowup and the beginning of our separation.
My biggest concern right now is our little interactions. It seems that she is very intent on showing me that she doesn’t love me and almost disapproves of me loving her.
Here’s some examples:
Every morning when I leave for work I tell her “see you tonight” and her response is always “ok”. Usually I’ll respond to that with “have a good day” and she typically doesn’t say anything back.
Any time I ask her how she’s doing or how her day was, her response is “all right”. That’s it. No follow ups, no asking me how my day was, nothing.
Most times when I try to have a conversation with her, it seems that she tries to end it as quickly as possible.
Now here’s the real kicker…if I pull back and don’t initiate these pleasantries or conversations, she assumes that I am upset with her and she gets mad because I am being “the same old Navyguy” by walking around the house “in a mood”.
How the he|| do I break this cycle??? Whether I’m nice or I pull away, I end up feeling like crap, and it doesn’t seem to affect how W treats me at all.
Now on to some specifics:
W seemed to enjoy her trip to Kansas. I didn’t initiate any contact with her the entire time she was gone. She texted me to tell me she arrived there, and the only time I heard from her while she was there was on Father’s day when she left a voicemail to tell me happy father’s day. She didn’t do anything else for me for father’s day…I guess I was at least expecting a card from the kids or something. But yesterday she told me that she had gotten me a gift and a couple cards and she meant to give them to me before her trip but she couldn’t find where she put the cards.
Awhile ago I signed W and I up for a Retrouvaille session in the middle of July. On Friday, I got a call from the coordinator asking for the deposit, because I hadn’t sent it in yet. I hadn’t asked W yet if she was interested in going, but I had to let the coordinator know one way or another, so I asked her about it last night. I asked in what I thought was a very nice/disarming way. I said: “I held a spot for us in an upcoming marriage retreat weekend and I need to let the guy know if we’re attending. If you aren’t interested that is fine or if you want to find out more about it I will give you the name of it and you can decide after you have read about it”. W immediately replied that she was not interested.
On the more positive side of things, W made a small physical contact with me last Thursday. We were putting the kids to bed and W’s back was hurting so she got out her massager while I was reading the kids their story. After the story, W and the kids all laid in bed while I massaged their backs with the massager…mostly focused on W, of course. After that I laid down between the kids and W started giving me a scalp massage. This was something she always used to do and I really loved it. It didn’t last very long and I think she was just doing it to show the kids how to do it, but it was sure nice while it lasted.
Anyways, I’m planning to keep the good fight going. W is starting school next Monday. I think I need to keep up better with my journaling here. It does seem to help me stay focused on the positives when I write them down.
Hey Navy! Nice to hear from you.
It is looking to me that our situations are moving closer and closer to being very similar. Your W seems to want the M to reconcile, but is unwilling, or at least not ready, to work at it. My W seems to be in the same boat.
Your sitch has gone on for 6 months, mine is right at 7 months.
Don't know why I point this out... I guess my point is that you are not alone in your frustration.
We both need to keep focused on the positives, stay patient, and give things time.
Maybe we can keep reminding each other of these things.
At least you haven't had to deal with an OM. There's a positive for you!
Stay strong Navy... and stay in the game. I have a feeling that IF things work out for you and/or me... that it will be worth it.
BITS
Denver
CS: I agree with everything you posted. I have been primarily focused on the kids. I think my biggest weakness is my GAL and getting out of the house. I have a hard time with that because W seems to resent being "stuck" in the house while I am out doing something. I have been playing in a couple soccer leagues and golfing every once in awhile, but I'm probably not GAL'ing as much as I could be because of my fear of her resenting it.
Karma: I agree that this can't go on like this forever. I know it is already affecting our kids. W and I have talked about that. I think she knows it deep down, but doesn't want to hear it from me, or anyone else for that matter. As far as re-discovering each other goes, I think her position on that is still perfectly clear...she has no interest in it now.
J3B: I like the idea of telling her that, but I'm not sure how I could say it in a way that she would percieve as "nicely" and not self-serving. I might need a script for that if anyone has any ideas.
Denver: I agree...and reminding each other to stay patient and positive would definitely be a good thing for both of us. We'll get there someday. When we do, I'll take a trip back home and we can go celebrate at Casa Bonita!
Practice that 'script' here.
You'll get feedback.
Denver: I agree...and reminding each other to stay patient and positive would definitely be a good thing for both of us. We'll get there someday. When we do, I'll take a trip back home and we can go celebrate at Casa Bonita!
Nice!!!
navy,
let's work on that script. You gots to do somethin' different cuz this sukkks!
And it isn't healthy for the kids and I'm glad you think she's figuring that out.
IF she's not interested in Retrovaille (can't believe she wouldn't even call? Tell her you'd benefit even if you do divorce. There were couples there with that as their goal, but ALL the couples benefitted, including them.
We attended great workshops early in our m, and some mediocre ones, I had modest expecations of Retrovaille. But we were blessed with the exact right combination of host couples
who told US what we needed to hear.
Will she ever get help? What is your R like with her family today? Sorry if you said it before but I can't recall it.
Geez, if you do find a c, you can ask for a Pro-Marriage T or C. Happy couples go to retreats but happy couples don't go to counselling often,
so when a pro-M counselor advises div b/c "someone's not happy", I wonder what they meant by saying "pro m"...sheesh. So don't bother with marriage counselling until IF AND WHEN you have someone who really is pro marriage AND more important, a willing spouse.
Good luck, hang in there and let's start some
playwriting...you know, the SCRIPT!!
Give us an outline and we'll flesh it out
I think my biggest weakness is my GAL and getting out of the house. I have a hard time with that because W seems to resent being "stuck" in the house while I am out doing something.
She's not stuck in the house if you take your kids out with you when you GAL. You can have a life at the playground.
some of the GAL has to be without the kids
Navy needs to meet new people for real, and to create some mystery.
Plan ahead and ask her if a babysitter is needed so she can go out somewhere too...after all, according to her, you guys are just roomies with kids...
Hey everyone...sorry I haven't posted my draft script yet. I've been really busy the last couple days. Things have been pretty good with W too.
25...exactly how I feel about the GAL...I love my kids more than anything, but for GAL to serve it's intended purposes, it can't always be me taking the kids out for an activity.
Hey everyone...sorry I haven't posted my draft script yet. I've been really busy the last couple days. Things have been pretty good with W too.
25...exactly how I feel about the GAL...I love my kids more than anything, but for GAL to serve it's intended purposes, it can't always be me taking the kids out for an activity.
right Navy. You have to be on your own with some of your peeps or meeting new ones...
and the mystery stuff, "gamish" as that sounds, and is, you have to play it.
Good luck, hang in there and remember there's stuff on the base that will give you activities on and off base...
and if you are stationed where I think you are, there's tons of stuff to do there too.
Hire a sitter or better yet, ask your w if she's going to be out
"that night" b/c you will be and therefore you'll call a sitter...
does SHE have any names of sitters or the phone numbers b/c YOU have plans for that night...
and then do it again, every other weekend at first.
And during the week, disappear "on errands" for 3 hours for an errand that takes 30 minutes...got it? Not in a crappy way that dumps on her, in fact preferably when the kids are out or asleep,
but now and then do the disappearing act...as if you
are MAYBE meeting someone
OR maybe you were doing an errand BUT THEN
you met an interesting person who chatted with you,
and you hit it off and blah blah blah....
make sense?
Thanks 25. I still haven't really thought about my script yet, because I haven't had a need to.
I'm not totally sure why, but for the last week and a half, things have been better. W has been initiating conversations with me, and even asked about my day a few times. She has been very engaged with the kids and even proposed that we take a trip to Hershey Park sometime in the near future. Part of me thinks that she's begun to realize that maybe her life isn't as miserable as she thought. I'm not going to get my hopes up or screw this up with expectations, but could she be coming out of the fog?
Friday night I built a fire in our fire pit, and she came out to join me. We sat around talking, laughing, and drinking for about 3 hours.
W started school Monday. She is very engaged with her classes and happy to be progressing toward her degree again. I'm trying to make sure that she has the time she needs to study.
I had IC on Monday as well. IC asked me if she thinks counseling is helping me. I told her I don't really think it is now other than giving me a place to vent. I really feel like I'm in a good place where I am at peace with whatever the outcome of this is going to be. I told IC if we don't reconcile, I think that someday I'll reach a breaking point where I decide I don't want to do this anymore...and while it will suck, it will be ok.
Glad to hear that things appear to be improving. I am currently in the same situation as you. My wife is still in the marriage, does not want a divorce for the sake of the kids but at the same time does not want to work on the marriage.
I can totally relate to your comments about how they try and maintain an emotional distance with us. My wife never asks me how my day went, how I am feeling or what I may have on the go. No goodnights, no have a good time etc, just a simple ok or alright.
Not sure what advice I can give you other than hang in there and try and work through it. I think it is all part of them not wanting to give us any false hope that we maybe able to reconcile our relationships. Unfortunately it leaves us emotionally with nothing and how long we can go without that interaction is difficult to determine. In my case it is complicated further by an OM who is still lurking in the background. The EA is over, but they still connect at work and interact which is not good. As long as she is getting some emotional support from him, she will not reach out to me.
Anyway, no advice other than what others have posted here and that there are others out there like you that are trying to work through the same situation. I will continue to follow your thread to see how you make out and hopefully I can learn from your progress.
Still chugging along. After the week and a half of improvement, things have gone back downhill a bit. Seems like I'm at a ratio of about 5 steps forward, 4 steps back right now.
W's back has been bothering her a lot lately and it seems to greatly affect her mood. I did give her a back rub for about 30 minutes the other day. I saw her laying in an awkward position on the couch and asked if she was ok. She told me her back hurt and I offered to massage it. She accepted. This has actually happened twice now. Seems like a good thing...she's ok with me touching her now. She certainly wasn't a couple months ago.
I've been doing ok. It's still very difficult, and I still haven't been doing great with GAL'ing, other than playing a lot of soccer and getting out with the kids.
Well, things have been pretty quiet on my front for awhile. Had something interesting happen this weekend though.
Friday night I put the kids in bed and D5 kept telling me that she wanted mommy to cuddle with her. I told her that I would lay with her for awhile, but she started getting worked up and kept saying she wanted mommy. W was outside talking to a friend on the phone, so I told D5 that she can have me cuddle or nobody. She kept saying she wanted mommy, so I told her good night and left the room. I was pretty upset from this…usually she is happy to have either me or W in there, but she wasn’t that night. I’ve also been having trouble getting D5 to listen to me lately.
I don’t think any of D5’s actions are abnormal for a 5 y/o, but when you tack this onto W and I’s current sitch, I was pretty frustrated at this point. W was still outside talking on the phone, so I got in my car and went for a drive around DC to relax a bit. (No, DC traffic is not relaxing, but it was after 10 pm)
When I got home, W was sitting on the couch. I walked in and said hello, and she asked me if I was ok. I said I was ok, I just needed to go for a drive, and I’m better now. She left it at that. Then I went to bed. I was still pretty upset, so I just laid in bed for awhile. About a half hour later, W saw I was still awake and came in the room. She asked me again if something was bothering me. I told her about what happened with D5 and that I’ve been pretty frustrated with getting her to listen to me lately. W sat down on the bed right next to me (even touching me a bit) and was really nice and understanding.
When we were done talking, W got up and walked around the bed. She changed into her pajamas (1st time she has changed in front of me since December) and climbed into our bed. She said to me: “this really is a nice bed”, and I replied “yes, it definitely is”. Then she said “you know, you can talk to me about things when something’s bothering you”. I told her “thanks and thanks for talking to me tonight”.
That was Friday night. W slept in OUR bed Saturday and last night as well. 3 nights in a row. It was so great to wake up and have her laying there next to me. I woke up early on Saturday and just laid there watching her sleep for awhile...she is so beautiful.
A few months ago she told me that she doesn’t think we should be sharing the bed unless she wants to work on our M. Could that be the case??
Things were really good all weekend. We went to a BBQ at a friend’s house on Saturday and I spent a lot of time playing with the kids all weekend.
I think the ball might be rolling...I just need to stay the hell out of its way.
I'm happy to hear that Navy. It sounds like things are moving forward for you... Hopefully. I would kill for that kind of sensitivity from my W. There is a huge wall between us that I don't know will ever go away.
Keep truckin along man.
BITS
Denver
Navy,
Keep doing what your doing. She is giving signs of wanting a R back....
Navy, I know you are open to letting it happen. Have the patience to let it happen. In an earlier post you mentioned 5 steps forward 4 steps back. Recognize that ratio may still be in play, but that progress is still progress.
No expectations, so no disappointments. I know how hard that is.
Denver: It is weird, because I see things in your sitch that you are getting from your W which I would love to get from mine. Maybe it relates back into the whole 5LL thing? I'm certainly no expert.
JS: The 5 forward, 4 back is definitely still in play.
Denver: It is weird, because I see things in your sitch that you are getting from your W which I would love to get from mine. Maybe it relates back into the whole 5LL thing? I'm certainly no expert.
JS: The 5 forward, 4 back is definitely still in play.
Hey Navy. I'm curious what you see in my sitch that I am getting that you would love to get from your W. I don't see it.
Navy,
Keep doing what your doing. She is giving signs of wanting a R back....
Absolutely good stuff. TAKE IT SLOW...I don't know how to make it all work
but a good way to screw things up now, would be to rush it.
Something you're doing is working. Keep at it. Keep expectations low (short term anyhow),
b/c I think there's progress here for the long run. I also think
that her schooling is a way for her to feel another sense of purpose. Sometimes depression is a form of feeling purposeless....
Sometimes even moms need an additional feeling of value and use.
When they get their recharge, they come up for air and are better able to give to others.
Excellent interchange with her about d5.
Not about w, but about the d. Good...good stuff Navy. Keep at it, slowly rebuilding...
but I think some GAL is still in order.
Hang in there!!
Hey Navy. I'm curious what you see in my sitch that I am getting that you would love to get from your W. I don't see it.
Denver: I know things aren’t exactly rosy for you right now, and I know you are dealing with an OM where I am not, but here’s a few things I have noticed:
Your W has initiated physical contact with you (hugs, kisses, touches). I get absolutely nothing.
Your W tells you how she's feeling and has been fairly straight forward with you with where she's at. Mine never tells me anything...I am left guessing. I have no idea what her intent for us is right now. If she’s in a bad mood I have no idea if it’s something I did or something else.
Your W has the word reconcile in her vocabulary. Mine has not once said that she’d even consider it.
25: You are dead on with school giving her a sense of purpose. Very important to her.
Last night was interesting.
W seemed to be in a crappy mood when I got home. Lots of one-word answers...didn't want to talk to me. It bothered me, but I didn't react.
After we got the kids in bed, W went outside to smoke, and I decided I'd go out and try talking to her. I sat down, made some small talk, and then asked her if she was doing ok.
She said she was fine, then told me she hates school. She went on to clarify that she doesn't like her speech class. She has been dreading taking speech for years, she gets extremely nervous speaking in front of people.
We moved on to some other topics...my work, her fingernails, whether or not bugs have ears, etc, etc. We continued to talk for about an hour...laughing, having fun, (connecting?)
Then it was getting late. I told her to have a good night and as I was saying it I purposely tapped my foot on the bottom of her shoe a couple times. Oops. She responded with an awkward "okay". Once again the minor physical contact seems to have bitten me in the @$$. I then got up and went inside and went to bed. She came to bed a few minutes later. I was figuring that she might go sleep with D5, but she didn't.
It's now been a full week since she's been back sharing our bed. I still have no idea if it means anything or not. It will be interesting to see how things go this weekend.
Well…the last few days have felt like the “4 steps back”.
Things have been very hard on me. W has been extremely warm and cold. It’s like almost every time I initiate a conversation, I get the one-word answers and she acts annoyed by just about anything I say…almost to the point where she seems offended that I talked to her or asked her a question. But, when she wants to talk to me, she does so and is nice.
After ~10 days of her being back in our bed, Tuesday night W slept on the couch. We were up pretty late watching TV and then I went to bed. I chalked this one up to her just falling asleep on the couch.
Wednesday night W slept in D5’s bed. Our power went out right as we were putting the kids to bed, so they were scared. I chalked that one up to W comforting D5.
Last night W slept on the couch again. Getting to the point where I'm thinking this isn’t a coincidence.
Something is making her pull back…I’m not sure what.
Hey navy
Been lurking your thread.
I too am in that part of piecing dealing with bed arrangements and such. Seems to me like she is still on a pendulum between yes and no. I'd back off and keep DBing.
Sounds like she knows she wants to stay but has a hard time understanding why. Keep conflict to a minimum, give her space, and enjoy the little gems of happiness. During piecing it is common for the former LBS to try to hurry the former WAS this will just cause her to relapse. I know this from personal experience. Some issues may still be lingering, you'll have to deal with these on her timeline and her terms. She may not be ready to lower her defenses, just in case things go wrong. Any attempt by you, to get her to lower them no matter how good intentioned will fail.
W is still back on the couch. I asked her the other night why she moved back out of our bed (caveated that I was not trying to pressure her into coming back, but just wanted to know because I didn't understand).
Her response: "I didn't move back into our bed because I've had a change of heart. D5 had become dependent on me sleeping in bed with her and I don't want that so I stopped sleeping in her bed. Then I noticed that you were touching my foot the other night and I felt like you were trying to test the waters, and I'm still not in that place."
I replied "ok, I was just wondering. good night" and then I went to bed.
I honestly don't know what I was feeling when I touched her foot. Maybe I was testing the waters...I do know I am absolutely starved for affection/touch from another person. Maybe I was hoping for more...but I don't think I was expecting anything. Honestly at this point I would be completely thrilled with a hug or holding hands or even a pat on the back.
Clearly your W is in the "feelings of love should happen naturally" mindset. My W went through this too. She's waiting for her emotions to tell her she is in love. While in this stage any reaching out by you will make her question if she is in love enough to accept your gesture. In her mind even having to ask the question means she is not in love. Since she still holds out to this notion that love should be automatic. My best advice is to stop reaching out for an R with her. Just be fun, and pleasant, and do fun stuff with her and the kids. Build some good memories where she is in no way pressured to decide if she loves you. Hopefully with time she'll become more accustomed to you, and start seeking your affection.
Don't test the waters, let her do it. In my sitch 3 months ago she started by sitting close enough to me on the couch that our legs lightly touched. I tried not to make a big deal and just enjoyed the contact. She has since then slowly escalated, with occasional relapses.
Like all aspects of piecing this on her timeline not yours.
I know you want more reassurance, after all you two have been through,
I'm sure you want to confirm that you are still making progress. Just remember this is just another pursuing behavior, and will drive her away again.
Clearly your W is in the "feelings of love should happen naturally" mindset. My W went through this too. She's waiting for her emotions to tell her she is in love. While in this stage any reaching out by you will make her question if she is in love enough to accept your gesture. In her mind even having to ask the question means she is not in love. Since she still holds out to this notion that love should be automatic. My best advice is to stop reaching out for an R with her. Just be fun, and pleasant, and do fun stuff with her and the kids. Build some good memories where she is in no way pressured to decide if she loves you. Hopefully with time she'll become more accustomed to you, and start seeking your affection.
Don't test the waters, let her do it. In my sitch 3 months ago she started by sitting close enough to me on the couch that our legs lightly touched. I tried not to make a big deal and just enjoyed the contact. She has since then slowly escalated, with occasional relapses.
Like all aspects of piecing this on her timeline not yours.
I know you want more reassurance, after all you two have been through,
I'm sure you want to confirm that you are still making progress. Just remember this is just another pursuing behavior, and will drive her away again.
My W is here too. However, she seems to be leaning towards giving up on thinking that the 'in love' feelings will come back.
Interesting post green.
Denver
There's chemical love, and true love. WAW's are addicted on the chemical love. Your body automatically pumps you full of feel good drugs with every new OM. That's why sometimes giving affairs time works. The chemicals wear off the fog lifts and they are left staring at the consequences of their actions.
In truth your W is right she'll never get the butterflies in the stomach. That's not a problem as long as she recognizes that true love which you provide is much more valuable.
Denver
There's chemical love, and true love. WAW's are addicted on the chemical love. Your body automatically pumps you full of feel good drugs with every new OM. That's why sometimes giving affairs time works. The chemicals wear off the fog lifts and they are left staring at the consequences of their actions.
In truth your W is right she'll never get the butterflies in the stomach. That's not a problem as long as she recognizes that true love which you provide is much more valuable.
GB...thanks. I'm hoping that it is just another phase of piecing. Sometimes it's hard to fight off the feeling that she's not "becoming more accustomed" to me.
Denver...your comment made me think...I don't even know if my Whas ever considered that her "in love" feelings could come back...in fact, part of her seems to be actively fighting that.
As we all know, love is a choice, not a feeling. We all choose to look past our partners faults and love them for who they are for better or worse.
It's easy to love in the "better", but true character and committment shine during the "worse". And it's in those moments that we CHOOSE to love the person we vowed to love.
The notion that love is a choice is only understood by people that are fully realized. And I believe many of us would never have understood this notion without this tragic WAS scinero. Including me...
But it's something positive we can all take to our future relationships.
And that IS a blessing.
Have a great weekend all...
As we all know, love is a choice, not a feeling. We all choose to look past our partners faults and love them for who they are for better or worse.
It's easy to love in the "better", but true character and committment shine during the "worse". And it's in those moments that we CHOOSE to love the person we vowed to love.
The notion that love is a choice is only understood by people that are fully realized. And I believe many of us would never have understood this notion without this tragic WAS scinero. Including me...
But it's something positive we can all take to our future relationships.
And that IS a blessing.
Have a great weekend all...
^^^^^^
Absolutely.
GB...thanks. I'm hoping that it is just another phase of piecing. Sometimes it's hard to fight off the feeling that she's not "becoming more accustomed" to me.
Denver...your comment made me think...I don't even know if my Whas ever considered that her "in love" feelings could come back...in fact, part of her seems to be actively fighting that.
Navy - I told my W just night before last that I think that she is actively fighting the possibility of allowing herself to fall back 'in love' with me. I have no idea why she is doing it, but I really don't think that she is giving it a chance to happen. Maybe subconscious selfish thing going on. I don't know.
Navy, Denver
I used to tell my wife the exact thing. It never got me anywhere. It probably made things worse. It's tough but just let things flow naturally let her reach out to you.
GB...thanks. I'm hoping that it is just another phase of piecing. Sometimes it's hard to fight off the feeling that she's not "becoming more accustomed" to me.
Denver...your comment made me think...I don't even know if my Whas ever considered that her "in love" feelings could come back...in fact, part of her seems to be actively fighting that.
Navy - I told my W just night before last that I think that she is actively fighting the possibility of allowing herself to fall back 'in love' with me. I have no idea why she is doing it, but I really don't think that she is giving it a chance to happen.
Maybe subconscious selfish thing going on. I don't know. Denver--I'd think fear is more likely.
Navy, at least your w said she's "Still not in that place yet" as in, as I read that,
she could be in the future.
It's a form of pressure to ask, but not unreasonable to want to know,
if she's actively fighting it. B/C if she is, it won't happen. I don't know what she fears from you Navy b/c you were NOT abusive and you are paying the price for either other men's behaviors or false memories of your w.
Either way, not your responsibility and very unfair to you and your family.
At some point she has to see the marriage as a partnership and not simply co-parenting. What does the DB coach say?
Does your w think it's okay for you to date OWs or she thinks a celibate marriage is fine forever for both of you? I'm curious.
Sorry her reason for going back into the bed wasn't what we hoped. But like I said, she didn't say she'd NEVER feel okay with affection. OTOH,
would it be so wrong to ask her if she's fighting those possible feelings?
Keep us posted.
25...thanks for the post, and welcome back. You were certainly missed by many on here. I started a new thread the other day with the latest update:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173637#Post2173637Things continue to improve since I put the bed in the basement and the associated talk that took place.
To answer your questions:
At some point she has to see the marriage as a partnership and not simply co-parenting. What does the DB coach say?
Does your w think it's okay for you to date OWs or she thinks a celibate marriage is fine forever for both of you? I'm curious.
I haven't worked with a DB Coach, but my IC has been very clear in pointing out that the current arrangement is completely unfair to me and is not (and possibly never was) a good marriage. I have pondered her expectations for "us" many times, but never asked her directly. We have both told each other that we don't want to live like this for the rest of our lives. No idea how she'd react to the dating thing...but I'm guessing it wouldn't be good.
When IC asked the same question, here's what I replied: "At this point I feel the potential upside of reconciling for myself and our kids outweighs the pain I am going through and the effects of seeing a bad marriage are having on our kids. If that scale tips the other way, that will be our breaking point".
Sorry her reason for going back into the bed wasn't what we hoped. But like I said, she didn't say she'd NEVER feel okay with affection. OTOH,
would it be so wrong to ask her if she's fighting those possible feelings?
I honestly don't think I need to ask. I am almost certain she is fighting those feelings...and feels like she is letting herself down if she doesn't. But, especially since the bed thing happened, she seems to be fighting them less and less. I have actually had moments in the past week where I felt like I was the one "keeping my distance". Weird.