WAW tearing up our family part II

Here's my first thread/my story: WAW teating up our family

Starting a new one as I was over the limit

Uggg, hard day today. Today is my last day at a company that I started working for as an intern when I was 20 ..... aka ... almost 12 years ago.

To make things more fun, the baby has some terrible stomach bug. W is taking her to the doctor today.

On my way out this morning, W saw I was having a hard time. She asked if I wanted a hug .... and I told her the truth ..... no I didn't.

This may have been a terrible thing .... but my emotional plate is full today. And today, all I can think about is how she is quitting. I have never been a quitter. If you've seen the movie Rocky .... that's me. Here I am, changing jobs, giving up a totally secure position, to go earn more $, and be closer to our house so that I can manage my life after W moves out.

I'm taking on the world ..... by myself ... and with the BITS.

But W ..... she's thrown in the towel. Because things weren't as she imagined they'd be.

Sorry, I'm just pissed today. I deserve better than what she's doing.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

Uggg, hard day today. Today is my last day at a company that I started working for as an intern when I was 20 ..... aka ... almost 12 years ago.

To make things more fun, the baby has some terrible stomach bug. W is taking her to the doctor today.

On my way out this morning, W saw I was having a hard time. She asked if I wanted a hug .... and I told her the truth ..... no I didn't.

This may have been a terrible thing .... but my emotional plate is full today. And today, all I can think about is how she is quitting. I have never been a quitter. If you've seen the movie Rocky .... that's me. Here I am, changing jobs, giving up a totally secure position, to go earn more $, and be closer to our house so that I can manage my life after W moves out.

I'm taking on the world ..... by myself ... and with the BITS.

But W ..... she's thrown in the towel. Because things weren't as she imagined they'd be.

Sorry, I'm just pissed today. I deserve better than what she's doing.

I feel for you, ironman. Days like today really blow. Hang in there. Don't quit.

What would Rocky do today? Any chance you can go run the streets of Philadelphia this afternoon to let off some steam?

(((Ironman)))
Hugs are necessary for growth and emotional health. Have one on me.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

Uggg, hard day today. Today is my last day at a company that I started working for as an intern when I was 20 ..... aka ... almost 12 years ago.

To make things more fun, the baby has some terrible stomach bug. W is taking her to the doctor today.

On my way out this morning, W saw I was having a hard time. She asked if I wanted a hug .... and I told her the truth ..... no I didn't.

This may have been a terrible thing .... but my emotional plate is full today. And today, all I can think about is how she is quitting. I have never been a quitter. If you've seen the movie Rocky .... that's me. Here I am, changing jobs, giving up a totally secure position, to go earn more $, and be closer to our house so that I can manage my life after W moves out.

I'm taking on the world ..... by myself ... and with the BITS.

But W ..... she's thrown in the towel. Because things weren't as she imagined they'd be.

Sorry, I'm just pissed today. I deserve better than what she's doing.

Even Rocky lost to Apollo Creed Ironman... Be easy on yourself. It is okay to have days like this.

I'd also advise you to be easier on your W... remember, she is going through a difficult time as well...

You focus on you... offer your W unconditional love... be the Rock... the Lighthouse... the man that she fell in love with... Things will fall into place...

BITS
Denver

Thanks Sparks, Scylla, and Denver.

Yes, I do feel for W ... she is in pain too. This is just one of those times in life when you really would like to have your spouse for support.

But yes, Denver. Rocky did lose .... and he did get knocked down a lot. Just gotta keep getting up until the brain damage sets in :-)

Time for a dance party IronMan. C"mon - you'll love it. Turn on the radio or ipod, start something for dinner and thank God you're strong and smart and employed and alive. (Oh ya, and dance around the kitchen like a fool)

Dance in the kitchen. When your wife comes home, feel free to dance with her. Hell, maybe she is a quitter and can't do it anymore. That [censored] - more for her than for you, though. You can be proud of who you are and where you're heading. You've taken the oath to be the best person you can be and tonight you should celebrate that. If nothing else, it should crack up your sick baby. And, if you feel like it, take that hug, look her in the eye and give her a compliment. Cue Eye of the Tiger....cause you're RISING up......

First, BIG, BIG HUGS, Ironman.

Tell me why you didn't want the hug?

You're still operating from the standpoint that she's given up. That's a problem. (Hey, one I'm well familiar with because I did the same thing). You need to be operating from the standpoint that you have not given up. This is over when you say it's over and not a second sooner. She doesn't have the first clue what she wants. If she did, this would be way done already. But it isn't. So stop thinking about her giving up.

You know all the time you hear stories of triumph. Those poor miners that were trapped underground for months was a great one. Always in circumstances like that, a hero emerges. In that case, it was the last guy out. We heard story after story of fights breaking out, people breaking down, getting sick and giving up. But that last guy? Well, he rallied the troops, came up with work schedules, came up with sleep schedules, came up with a set of rules. He wouldn't let the others give up. Was he mad because the others wanted to give up? Maybe. But that wasn't his focus. His focus was to get these people out of the hole they were in. And he did. Well, my friend, consider yourself "the last guy." Get your family out of this hole. Forget about her giving up. What are you going to do to rally the troops????

I'm praying for you, sweetie!!! Hang in there. You really are doing better than you think you are.

LIS

Originally Posted By: ironMan

This is just one of those times in life when you really would like to have your spouse for support.

This is one of those times in life when you learn that you don't need anyone for support...

That you are capable of being happy regardless.

BITS
Denver

Sorry to hear it, Iron. Hey, don't be so hard on yourself or her. Next time, use that offer for a hug as an opportunity to DB. You both need it.

If you are down today, no big deal. Hell, I have been down for almost two weeks. But, each day, I get up, go to work, go to gym and spend my evenings here looking for friendship and support. You can do it, buddy! You are a BITS and BITS don't quit (except in my case... Ha!). You know, do as I say, not as I do, blah blah blah!!

Seriously, remember what I used to post all the time when I first got on here? Yester"day" was the only easy day here. Good luck!!!

BITS never walk alone!!!

FOBD

I don't have a ton to add, but good luck on the new job. You must be a very determined and talented individual to land such an upgrade in these times. Keep your head up, your wife doesn't know what she is doing. They have no feeling. Or sight. Or scruples. But we love them anyways. Wishing you better days to come Ironman

Hey buddy sorry I am late

7 Stages of Grief

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.

2. 2. PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.

You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.

3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.

You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")

4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.

During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.

5. THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.

6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.

7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

Where are you?

Originally Posted By: shaves

I don't have a ton to add, but good luck on the new job. You must be a very determined and talented individual to land such an upgrade in these times. Keep your head up, your wife doesn't know what she is doing. They have no feeling. Or sight. Or scruples. But we love them anyways. Wishing you better days to come Ironman

thanks, shaves. I really appreciate that. It was a good reminder to be thankful for the things in life that are going well and not focus on the part that isn't.

step .... I feel like I'm bouncing from 3-4-5 and back. Mostly I'm doing pretty well .... but I do get just indignant ... wtf is that silly woman thinking right now?

Last night, I took the opportunity to tell her a few ways that I know I let her down and didn't make her enough of a partner in my life. She was teary eyed and very thankful that I said that.

We had a very solid hug after that.

I don't think I can say that she is turning, but she hasn't moved out yet either. I just get frustrated that she can't see how detrimental to everybody her actions are.

Her actions become detrimental if you allow them to be. Listen to me on this, because really, I pushed my H out the door because I felt his actions were so toxic. Problem was that I would get indignant also. I would react constantly. Even if I wasn't reacting outwardly, I was absolutely doing this on the inside.

You've got to stop the spiral. That means, first, stop becoming indignant. Stop judging her actions. What can you do, instead, to become the light? You already know the answer to this, obviously because of the good convo you had with her.

Try your best to stay out of #3. When you get angry, analyze it, break it down and understand that it is not getting you anywhere. Find ways to counteract that.

Continue to educate yourself. If you've read DB, there is another great book called "Hold Me Tight." That has helped me enormously. Then, not sure if you know, but Divorce Busting has a facebook page. They've got a lot of articles on there that are very helpful. You need to go check that out.

Not for nothing, Ironman, but if you start looking at your posts from the beginning, there IS progress. I think you are doing an awesome job!!!

I'm praying for you.

LIS

No real news .... spent the end of the week/weekend working hard on a big project to get the house ready to sell

Today, I started a new job.

So, my life is too busy to worry much about my dingbat W.

She's been moping again. Said she really enjoyed spending time with me this weekend and working on projects with me. And, she says she's not happy with anything in her life really ... even though we're separated (in the same house). But, she still seems to think she's leaving at some point. The looking for apartments has been put on hold for unknown reasons. I don't ask and she doesn't say.

I am afraid sooner or later I am going to kick her out just out of frustration with this. Not anytime real soon however. Just .... poo or get off the pot, woman!

IronMan:

Happy your back with us man. I've been wondering how you have been. Haven't seen you around for what seems like ages.

I see the frustration in your words but I think I also see some things you should be encouraged about.

Hey did you ever check out that article about how to talk to your man on the DB FB site? Go check it out. I think you will enjoy it.

Easy, Iron. Don't be the one rushing the two of you to the attorney, OK? Remember, try something new with her, observe, report and adjust. When you see something positive, make a note of it. Try to do more of it.

I do believe that my WAS was also dealing with some undiagnosed depression and she did not want to deal with it. It made our R very tough. Have you suggested her seeing a C? Just wondering?

BITS never walk alone!!

FOBD

BITs get there in a hurry don't they?

2step, yeah .. I know. But she's been on the fence for so long about this. Maybe it isn't a bad thing .. but it is tiring.

FOBD, no rushing to atty here. I just almost think it will be easier when she leaves for me to go on with my life. I'm not in a hurry to get there yet ... but just tiring of her inaction. If I were as miserable as she said she was ... and concinved that leaving was the right thing to do ... as she said it was ... I'd be LONG GONE.

Iron man... you really need to go check out the DB facebook Page and 'like' a few of their articles so that they post more!!!

BITS
DENVER

Ironman,

Where are you? Have you been to the DB Facebook site? Denver turned us onto it.

I'm praying for you.

LIS

the 12 steps to something or rather... 'like' it!!!

bits
DENVER

Iron, yes, some time apart may not be a bad idea. I was so angry when my w left, but I have come to realize that it may actually save my M in the long run. Yes, it will be hard. Yes, it will be lonely. Yes, it will not be fun at times. But, after you have done it for a period, you will start to see the benefits. I have discovered so much about myself since she left that I never knew. Most importantly, I discovered that I was a jerk to be married to and I really did need to make some changes if I was going to save myself and hopefully my M.

I agree with Denver and Lost, check out the DB Facebook page. Very helpful stuff on there!

BITS never walk alone!

FOBD

Hi LIS,
Sorry, life has been hectic. New job started this week. Plus, I was finishing up putting new flooring in MY bedroom. CRAZY, CRAZY busy. Thanks for your support. I'll check out the facebook site. Can't post there though because W is on facebook too.

FOBD ..... yeah .... I feel it would be easier for me to heal. But, I won't push her out yet. And, both of us around is better for the baby and easier for us as well.

UPDATE:

Last night, I got home from the gym and had some time before she went to the gym. She brought up the subject of what her and her C were discussing.

She said that although she too had considered switching jobs .... that her and her C had agreed that she already had enough on her emotional plate right now.

She said "I'm not as strong with change as you are".

I told her that changing jobs was scary for me too. But, my hand had been forced by my company's actions and I couldn't ignore the opportunities that sought me out.

Anyway .... she went on that she is really "emotionally unstable" right now. I said I was sorry to hear that, and asked why she felt so unstable and what unstable meant.

She said that she was having a difficult time dealing with the emotional part of deciding to leave.

I said I was surprised to hear that, since it was something she pushed so hard for. And, if it was what she wanted ... why would it cause so much emotional tension for her.

She was very nice and wanted to discuss it with me. And said that I deserved to ask questions because it involved me too. I said that I appreciated it .... but that she didn't have to answer questions. And I said "this is not what I want. It wasn't my decision. I do know you were unhappy, and I apologize for my contribution to that."

She then said "thank you for saying that. You know, I was just telling FRIEND the other day .... that you had become a totally new/different person lately. You share your work/job stuff with me and really listen to mine. It was never like that"

I replied that yes .... I was a new person now. A better one.

I should also add ..... she's been giving me pecks on the lips recently.

She's obviously very confused about what she wants. If I were unhappy as she says she was ... I'd feel great about getting out.

So, no great news here ... and I think she's going to have to leave just because she feels like she has to. She's also playing off any worries about the decision as "having to get emotionally used to the changes"

The problem for me now ..... is I'm caring less and less. I really do deserve better than this. And .... I won't be waiting forever. Fit guy, decent looking, makes good money, very intelligent .... I hear those are short on the marketplace and somebody would probably APPRECIATE such a guy instead of crap on him all the time.

oh ironman.....this is all good stuff

and i really understand the caring less and less part

i truly believe, that is when they turn....because you are not just pretending..you really mean it .........you can live without them and they sense that the change in you is real

if you are not sure how you feel, don't do anything
keep on doing what you have been and pretty soon, the outcome is going to be entirely up to you

and on the off chance it is not, you will not care anyway
nice work
and yes, you should check out the fb page and look at the 12 ways to communicate with your man article
you should "like" or comment on it
it was very helpful to alot of us BITS

done and done, grr

Don't forget Ironman, you have one of the most important qualities in a guy - when things got tough, you didn't bail. Add that to your "I am awesome list". She's hurt you, but this is also helping you to become a better, stronger person.

Agree, from a woman's perspective, that it sounds like you are getting to a good place and she's starting to see what she's losing. A lot of the posts I have read have mentioned the woman waiting to see if the change is real and going to stick or if it's just a temporary thing. If she rationalizes her gut instincts away and misses out, her loss (you'll be well on your way).

Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible.
Stanislaw Lem

Iron, I am proud of you. You seem to be in the right frame of mind right now. Keep up the good work and stay the course. Maybe the ice is beginning to thaw with your W. Yes, being together is better for the children, but only if it also means that the two of you are getting better with your marriage. Just give that some thought.

Hang in there buddy. BITS never walk alone!

FOBD

Update ..... I haven't been on much. I am just sooo busy ... and really just don't feel that concerned about W right now. She's her own mess now.

We did have a rough weekend though. I went out with a budyy on Sat night. We just hung out and talked about everything. His W split his family with 2 kids up so she could go be a druggy and a hussy. So, mostly just commiserating. Just thinking about how this woman could do that to a family with young kids caused so much anger to well up in me. I can't respect that woman. Anyway, I got home around 1:00 in the morning.

Next day, W says she couldn't sleep last night because she was worried where I was and what I was up to. ... huh? Why? You want out, lady.

Sunday, we got together with a big group of couple friends of ours. Only one person there knows W intends to separate. Just seeing how the wives were nice to each other ...... and knowing these kids would grow up in a house like the one I grew up in ... I just got PISSED at W.

On the way home, she brought something about my friend's sitch up. Well, it turned into me saying how much I couldn't respect this woman ... and how I believe your legacy is what you do. you are what you do. What you say ..... that's BS. If somebody wants to know what kind of person you were .... they should just look at what you did. And, I said that it infuriates me that my friend has to almost lie to his kids about why him and mommy don't live together when the real answer was mommy is a screwed up, selfish, weak person.

Well, W got really upset. And then was asking me if I was going to tell our D that W was a bad person.

Anyway .... I know ... not the best DBing. But, I'm just sick of all this. Its not my job to protect W from reality. If she breaks up this family .... she is a bad person. Sorry honey.

Iron, take a deep breath, buddy. Yes, it is upsetting that they are willing to break up the family. I know in my heart that I still struggle with the abandonment aspect of S. But, you can't go at her with comments from around the corner like that. It is just not fair to her regardless of what she wants to do. That flies in the face of all DBing principles.

I do want to commend you though. You do recognize that your behavior is not good and it was good that you came her to vent instead of venting to her. Both very good moves.

BITS never walk alone!

FOBD

Some of this sounds like you are dealing with a WAW. In fact, when she showed concern for you being out till 1:00...that was a positive move from her.

What I want to warn you about is that thin line your walking right now. You've experienced a lot of emotions during this stitch. You are angry, and I'm not saying you shouldn't be, but anger won't draw her back. Being relaxed and dropping the emotional rope has a better chance.

But the main thing I want to point out is to please be careful and don't allow your anger to make you mean and nasty. What you said to your WAW about telling the baby she's a bad person.....that just made you mean and low down. You don't stoop to the level of a WAW. As Coach use to tell us, strength and honor.

(hugs)

Thanks, FOBD and Sandi. Yes, you are right. I have done pretty well all in all .... but I do slip.

And, I'm starting to wonder if I want anything at all to do with a woman who thinks splitting our family up is an option. Not sure that's the person I want for the rest of my life anymore.

It's the emotions that you go through. We see this on a regular bases here on the board. It's your anger talking. But, the bottom line is you still love her.

Emotions can mask the truth sometimes. Have a healthy outlet and keep moving.

((hugs))

Ironman, IMO Sandi�s right the conv was rooted in anger and anger is a normal emotion to have. Having feelings is part of what makes us human. You already acknowledged the anger was not constructive. Can you use the energy associated with it to motivate someting more positive in you?

In a former life maintaining bearing during emotional strain was a virtue. Breaking bearing was a sin. I try to remember that when �acting as if�

The analogy Sandi referred to about dropping the rope is a good one. IMO Ideally one should have enough detachment from the emotions of one�s sitch to not be affected by them. �Like water off a ducks back� the emotions should just flow away. I struggle with this also, but I am getting better.

I have not experienced this yet, but I understand the theory when our spouses realize we are no longer affected by their actions and are moving on without them, they will likely become curious and test to see if we truly have �dropped the rope� How that interaction flows determines what occurs next.

Like you I do not know if I will want the person W will eventually become in my life again. I know I do not want the person I perceive she is now. So I dropped the rope. She is too fogged in to notice. She may never notice. I have to accept that and focus on the things I can control.

You have an infant/small child. This makes all of this doubly tough. You cannot control how she mothers this child. You cannot control her decisions affectting the family. You can control how you react. You can control how you father this child. Be the best father you can be.

I've gotta chime in here and say, "ironman, you are an inspiration!"

I've been dealing with a WAW who moved out three weeks ago. It is a rough ride, but I really appreciate you sharing, as I believe you are handling yourself beautifully.

It is interesting that many of the same things you are going through and feeling exactly mirror my situation. Especially of late, where I seriously question whether or not she is worth taking back.

Keep up the good work, keep posting, and know you aren't alone in this situation. And, with every post, you are helping our another guy who's going through the exact same thing.

Thanks Sandi.

JustStunned ... it really helped me reading that. Thanks for your input. It is all in line with what I've been doing .... but its good to look at the map again to remember what my plan is.

Hey, thanks for that OnMyWay. That was really great to hear. Yes, there does seem to be a lot of similarity in a lot ot teh situations.

You stay strong yourself. Take care of yourself. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. Its a horrible journey .. but it won't kill you.

Won't kill me at all - you either.

Since W left, I've discovered my life has improved dramatically for me. Yes, I'd take her back for the sake of our family, but not until we both complete some dramatic changes - I'm guessing I'm way ahead in that department. There's no way either of us would be willing to go back to crappy marriage we both grew into. Just not worth it.

So, I have been pressing W about what she wants to do with our house. She complained for years that she wanted to sell it .. but then when we started getting ready to put the house on the market, she had serious reservations.

I created a spreadsheet to show her what the financial impact would be. Our mortgage is MUCH cheaper than renting a similar place where I could have the dogs.

She just got .. upset I dunno ... basically feeling sorry for herself.

She kept talking about "when she moves out". So I finally said "yes, when will that be?"

She said that a friend we know has a boyfriend who's tenant will be moving out of a condo ... and it is by her office ... so she is going to rent that place. Well, that is 30 mins from our house. Good luck picking D up from daycare, honey. Brilliant! She still didn't tell me WHEN.

On Sat, I took the daughter to a St Patrick's day parade. She loved it and we had a great time together.

On Sunday, I went to this place where I meditate (sensory deprivation tank actually) and worked hard on trying to understand W's perspective of the world.

I am trying really hard to see what her viewpoint is. And to some extent, I do understand it. I think I'm ok with whatever happens next. If W breaks our family up ... that is her problem. She can explain to D how that happened when it comes time. That's not my problem either. As a parent, you want to protect your kids from pain ... but I can't do it. If W is going to screw up this little girl's childhood, there is unfortunately not much I can do about it besides make sure that the time she spends with me is good. Already, daughter is gravitating towards me more than W. This is tearing W up too.

But, W, your actions have consequences ..... what you do in life IS who you are .... what you say ... is worthless.

So, I choose to live my life the way I would want my daughter to live hers. Mommy has to go on her own road now. I don't understand why exactly either honey. I'm sorry.

So, I have to figure out what to do about the house. If its worth $4k spent over a year to rent a house while she figures her life out.

And, I am working on being more sympathetic to what she's experiencing. But, I am REALLY not sure that I can respect her anymore. Just because somebody is confused and going thru pain .... just make anything they do justifiable. While INSANITY may be a valid legal defense, it doesn't make it ok for the victims.

Quote:

She can explain to D how that happened when it comes time. That's not my problem either. As a parent, you want to protect your kids from pain ... but I can't do it. If W is going to screw up this little girl's childhood, there is unfortunately not much I can do about it besides make sure that the time she spends with me is good. Already, daughter is gravitating towards me more than W.

Oh man I feel you here. I resist the urge frequently to tell our kids exactly where things stand. It's not my place. Actions have consequences and so does inaction. H made a choice and the explaining of the why is on him. I can only be the best Mommy I know how to be, and my kids miss me a lot when they're on visitation with their Dad. Ultimately, H. will be the loser, it's so sad he can't see that.

Quote:

And, I am working on being more sympathetic to what she's experiencing. But, I am REALLY not sure that I can respect her anymore. Just because somebody is confused and going thru pain .... just make anything they do justifiable. While INSANITY may be a valid legal defense, it doesn't make it ok for the victims.

Even the crazy people deserve basic respect for their humanity Ironman. You don't have to respect or agree with what she does, you don't have to support her lousy decision making either. Compassion IronMan, she really isn't aware of what she's doing.
She's flying by the seat of her pants and her emotional state of the moment, there is no higher cognitive functioning going on, not in any real sense. Her emotions cause her to react, the reasoning is not there.
Just like a little kid. A child playing with a ball kicks or throws it into the street, and chases it. So focused on that ball are they that they don't see the truck barrelling down the street toward them. It's that level of awareness you're dealing with IMHO.

You sound like you're in a good emotional place Ironman. Keep it up. You sound strong and confident in what you write.

ironman,

Perhaps it is time you begin "supporting" her decisions. Honestly, her moving out might just be the biggest "wake-up" call of her life. I've been having issues w/ my W and for some dumb reason have been letting her win. I know her new sitch has gotten worse. She now resents me and seems to want to D more than ever, yet she hasn't come to the full realization that she is responsible for her own actions. I'm not sure she can deal with it as the anger in her is building. She recognizes that this is all effed up, but has no knowledge (or desire) of how to fix it. I thinks she's just not there yet. Time to let her cook a little more, cool off, and then hopefully guide her back home, while letting her think it is her decision.

If you W tells you she needs to go, understand & encourage her to do so. You know you can't control what she thinks or how she feels, so just be supportive and understanding. It is kind of like calling her bluff. She'll probably decide not to go, but if she does, then it is on her to live with the consequences. It won't take her long to figure out her mistake, even though she'll probably never let on. Not your problem.

She is going through a very difficult time. No doubt about that. If you can recognize that, then you can put yourself in a position to "help." The ultimate love is to let her go. If you can put yourself in a place where you have an "understanding," you'll be less likely to be resentful. It can be a very hard thing to do, but in the end, it might just save your marriage. Don't do what I do and fall into the "fighting to be right" trap. Be a better man than me. You'll feel much better about yourself in the end, no matter what happens.

Wow, thanks, onMyWay. I needed that.

I've had a bad few days as far as anger goes. W is dressing sexy to go to work ... baby is screaming for daddy all the time and wants pretty much nothing to do with W .... W is pouting about it ... and everything just makes me want to scrream "get the F out .... you want out .... you got it honey! Good f-ing luck"

But, I don't scream it. I do know my anger has shown though. And W pouts like a child about it.

A child .... is the best way to describe her lately.

But, yeah. I'm ready to let her go. I think she'll move soon anyway. I'm kind of looking forward to her leaving. I think it'll be easier for me to be her friend when she's not around all the time.

People have posted the stages of grieving here many times. Mine seems to consist of

bargaining
anger
anger
anger
more anger

lol ..... but ... I've always been a bit of an angry imp. I mean as long as I can remember. I've used agner and spite to propel me to great heights in every area of my life ... obviously except my R.

I just have to be understanding, as you say. And .. some days are better than others for me here. I go back and forth between "She must be hurting badly to think this is a better choice" ....... and then I go to "I can't even respect a woman who would do this to her family .... and I don't want somebody like that for the rest of my life. I deserve better"

So ..... spin the wheel ..... no idea where I'll end up.

Originally Posted By: OnMyWay

ironman,

Perhaps it is time you begin "supporting" her decisions. Honestly, her moving out might just be the biggest "wake-up" call of her life. I've been having issues w/ my W and for some dumb reason have been letting her win. I know her new sitch has gotten worse. She now resents me and seems to want to D more than ever, yet she hasn't come to the full realization that she is responsible for her own actions. I'm not sure she can deal with it as the anger in her is building. She recognizes that this is all effed up, but has no knowledge (or desire) of how to fix it. I thinks she's just not there yet. Time to let her cook a little more, cool off, and then hopefully guide her back home, while letting her think it is her decision.

If you W tells you she needs to go, understand & encourage her to do so. You know you can't control what she thinks or how she feels, so just be supportive and understanding. It is kind of like calling her bluff. She'll probably decide not to go, but if she does, then it is on her to live with the consequences. It won't take her long to figure out her mistake, even though she'll probably never let on. Not your problem.

She is going through a very difficult time. No doubt about that. If you can recognize that, then you can put yourself in a position to "help." The ultimate love is to let her go. If you can put yourself in a place where you have an "understanding," you'll be less likely to be resentful. It can be a very hard thing to do, but in the end, it might just save your marriage. Don't do what I do and fall into the "fighting to be right" trap. Be a better man than me. You'll feel much better about yourself in the end, no matter what happens.

This is good stuff OnMyWay. Totally where my head is at. My STXH gave the if you love something set it free quote and he said that we have to learn how to live our lives w/o each other. OK....I can do that! I'm becoming a better person each and every day. And guess what? I really like who I am now!! Do you really like who you are??!!

Remember, people who initate D always act (key word) like they are happy. They want to present a strong front and that life is a bed of roses since they dumped us. The lies will eventually catch up!

Here's a great quote Truegritter..."I hope you find the happiness you are looking for. Go do what you need to do. You know where I will be."

That's right Zen, we can't control other people. Something I should know as I have been a master manipulator in my life & relationships. However, once you realize that we can't control (nor should we want to) others, it is a BIG relief. I think, in the end, R are better, too, as being together becomes a mutual choice between equals, as apposed to one person trying to keep another around against their will.

ironMan, I hear and understand your frustration, bother. I'm sure your wife is dressing sexy for work because there is someone there complimenting her and she is DESPERATE to feel something good about herself right now. I'm glad you are noticing she's making a change. Have you complimented her on it? You should do so without being forward or manipulative. It's simple, if she looks good to you simply tell her how it makes you feel as a man. She will probably appreciate it. Wouldn't you say so Zen (the woman's perspective)?

Also, iM, remember, DBing is more about you getting yourself in the right place in life than it is about your WAW finding herself or making the "right" decision. You gotta get your head on straight, man. If you know anger is an issue for you, you'd better figure out how to get a handle on it. I know how tough it is. For every little "victory" we have in this process, there is at least a seemingly equal defeat to knock us back down. As I stated over on my thread, I've used the whole "No More Mr. Nice Guy" thing to help me push myself farther along in the "me" process, as it has highlighted issues in myself I never considered before. True self discovery is a huge part of this and I am beginning to embrace that fact. I will be better in the end.

Don't give up on your wife. Don't push her out. Try to see it from her side. Know she is in pain and this is not easy for her. It doesn't make sense to us what our WAW's are doing, but in their minds, they feel as if they have no other options left. Let go of it all and drop your anger. She is desperate and cannot help herself any longer. You must be the man and provide her with better options from which to choose (and it must be her choice, don't influence, or it won't work). Get outside the box - and do it now. My wife and I have been fighting a lot lately. My DB Coach asked me what we fight about, and my honest response was, "We fight about who's more right."

Be sure to be honest with yourself when you ask, "What do I want: to be right, to be angry, to be rid of her, or to have my marriage come back better than it ever was before?" Figure out your true goal, then do only what works in achieving that goal - which is not necessarily the same as doing what you want to do or saying what you want to say. Take it from me, that is a lesson I'm learning the hard way.

ironMan, I've reread your post again, and I think it's time for some tough brotherly lover here:

Originally Posted By: ironMan

I do know my anger has shown though. And W pouts like a child about it.

A child .... is the best way to describe her lately.

Stop letting your anger show through. You want her to act different, be different yourself. Be the change you want in your R. Time to stop blaming her for everything. Time to man up an look deep within yourself, brother. This is not all her fault, and you know it. Unfortunately, reality is a b!tch.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

I go back and forth between "She must be hurting badly to think this is a better choice" ....... and then I go to "I can't even respect a woman who would do this to her family .... and I don't want somebody like that for the rest of my life. I deserve better"

Yes, you do deserve better, but like it or not you have to accept you've had a definitive hand in the way things are in your M. So, if you want better, be better. How you might ask? Start by going first and do it because it is the right thing to do, while expect nothing in return. If she thinks leaving is a better choice, then you need to step up and prove her wrong by your action, not by your judgement or your anger.

You are a man in a tight spot. You are a BITS. We are all in this together. I believe it is my responsibility to tell you to man up and do the right thing for your family regardless of what your W does. Put you ego aside and choose to be a man, a husband, and a father. I'm here to help keep you straight, because I believe you do deserve better. And you will get it. Stay focused.

IronMan - remember not to make assumptions. I found that trying to break the cycle of thinking I knew why H was acting how he was acting really twisted my head and heart. Half the time, I don't think they even know why they do what they do. So, you see her dressy sexy for work and think she's being a tramp. How do you know she isn't desparate for compliments, as mentioned by someone else, or trying to keep a line on you/keep you interested....you don't know and really, as kooky as they are right now, the motivation could change every 5 seconds.

So, as far as the anger goes, it sounds like you are minimizing the impact on your daughter - that's good. I decided that I cannot change my H, but I was going to do my da--dest to keep him for "making me" a bitter, angry divorcee. Her leaving does give you a break to deal with the anger and be able to have some peace/space.

Good luck - thinking of you.

Iron,
Do what you can to keep your cool, brother. Let me give you a little advice from someone that is a bit further down the road that no one ever wants to travel. First, trying to figure out her actions will drive you insane, no doubt. I have had to work very hard to stop myself from doing the same thing. WAS's are screwed up individuals who have no back up plan. Right now, her plan could be falling apart and she has no idea what she is doing. Who knows? But there is one thing I do know... trying to figure it out will make you more angry and cause more issues.
Second, the anger will fade, I promise you. About six weeks ago, my anger started to fade and I think you have noticed that in my posts. I no longer think about revenge or how much I hate her for leaving. When the anger fades, you will get some clarity that you will need to continue. My clarity hit me like a ton of bricks. It was the day I realized that she had to leave because I was a real S.O.B. to be married to....

Don't worry, buddy. That anger will pass. It has to or you will end up one screwed up individual. Look, for right now, don't fight it. Write letters to yourself and hide them. Come here and vent. Let yourself experience the anger. It is OK. If you don't it will haunt you longer than it must. Just make sure that you don't let that anger get anywhere near your daughter or your wife. I know, it keeps you warm. For nights after my w left, my anger kept me company. Let it do it's job for now. But, be on the lookout for the day when that anger is not so appealing... it will come, I promise you, my friend.

Hang in there!

FOBD

[b]"Second, the anger will fade"

It does my friend, I was sooooooo angry 3 months ago, 3 weeks ago, 3 days ago. Today, not so much. I "almost" feel sorry for my H that he is walking away from so much (my tude changes daily, today I am on a roll) It is the WAS that has EVERYTHING to loose. Not us, all we have to loose is our spouse. We have a whole life ahead. They, the WAS, will always have some sense of "what if". Forever a WAS will feel some empty space in their heart. That is on them~

FOBD, thank you very much. I had a good argument with other BITS today .. and got to work some of this out. Your words here mean a lot to me. I know you are right. I even feel better this afternoon and have been perfectly nice around W. The times I struggle are when D is noticeable distressed. She always wants daddy now ... and want mommy and daddy to hug. We're not fighting .. but she already wants her parents together and that kills me. But, I know this makes me angry .... so I need to see it coming, and pull some of that Muad Dhib (Dune) stuff on it.

verysad2day .... thanks for that ... I hope to follow in your footsteps.

IronMan

I will debate with you anyday my friend. Matter of fact I kind of enjoyed it because sometimes that is the way I process things. Sometimes people back off thinking I am getting upset but I like the full frontal approach better.

I also need the encouragement.

Anger will fade it is one of those emotions that you just can't hold on to for very long. Time is the great physician.

My D also is my weakness and she can reduce me to tears in a single second or make me feel bouts of anger with my W. Most of the time I am good but sometimes I thank God she doesn't call.

Here is the point I tried to get across to you the other day.

Stop attaching your reactions or feelings to her actions or lack of. You do a pretty good job of GAL and that is great. D 1st YOU 2nd and everything else where it lands.

'How can she do this to your family?"

She isn't. She is doing this for herself because she sees this as her only option. She can create feelings she has lost, however it does not mean she can't get them back.

Only you can decide if/when she does will you still be there to work on M.

Ironman:

I am so impressed with FOBD, VS2d and 2, that nothing I say can top that or offer any other insight. They all said exactly what I would have said, what I've felt and where I've been.

Think about what 2 said....
"How can she do this to your family?" She isn't. She is doing this for herself because she sees this as her only option. She can create feelings she has lost, however it does not mean she can't get them back.
Only you can decide if/when she does will you still be there to work on M.

And I would just like to add to this and say I think this is applicable whether there is a D or not.

Hi Ironman: We have a 3 year old. Last week i saw my daughter and took her out to the zoo, she kept telling me that she did not want to stay with grandma(wife stays with her parents) and she wanted to come home with me. Broke my heart. And we are pretty close to signing the final decree. But i am still keeping home. I have to for my daughter. I do believe that sometimes my wife has no idea what she's doing and for once in my life I am planning on being the stronger one for both of us and be the lighthouse. I am gonna push it for as long as i can. But i am going to try.

Do this for yourself. Do it so that one day you can be proud for what you stood up for and what you did. One day you will be able to proudly tell your daughter that you did what was right.

How's it going ironMan?

Anything new happening in your WAW world?

^

IronMan - some of the stuff with D is just what it is/is the age and some of it is crap your W is putting you guys through. One other place I feel like anger creeps up on me, when I see my kids hurting. I told H today that I am concerned that as this hurts the kids in their lives (him missing things, etc), that I will become more angry and frustrated with the situation. I hope that is not true. It feels good to let the anger go and the kids seem a lot happier. I've accepted the situation with 2 houses and so has my 2.5 year old.

Iron,
How are you handling that anger, buddy? Did you take my advice and maybe write some letters to yourself? It really does help. Give it a try. Keep us posted.

BITS never walk alone!

FOBD

Hey, FOBD .... Thanks for checking on me. It means more to me than I could ever express

.... I haven't done the letter thing .. but I think its a good idea. I have mostly just been

1) deciding that it was ok to be angry ... but .... make sure I don't let it sink me

2) trying to understand her side of it. My gut tells me, that she cheated (or kept wanting to) and was feeling bad about it. But, even if I'm wrong ... she doesn't feel good about leaving. IF she did, she would've been gone long ago. So, I'm mad at her. But this isn't easy for her either.

3) Aknowledging ... that yeah .... maybe this behavior is telling me that she's not somebody I can/want to build a life with in the future. But me being mad at her won't change that. If my D has to grow up in 2 houses ... I guess she does. It wasn't my decision ... but it isn't the end of the world.

So, just processing it I guess. Figuring out where the anger is coming from and just like pain .....what it can tell me about what's going on inside.

iM,

I'm with ya. I, too, know anger very well. However, all I've gotten out of it is permanent hypertension, a WAW, stupid decisions, regrets, etc., etc., etc.

I'm over MOST of it now, finally. W has learned how to push my buttons, so I do have to be very careful of that - I'll admit to flying off the handle last week - damn. Oh well, pick myself up and keep moving forward. I'm finding the one real thing I'm having a hard time with anger-wise is W's leaving and splitting up our family - I just can't forgive her for that; it pisses me off! She is somehow able to justify it, but my kid is innocent here and deserves better than what's she's getting.

I think the fact your WAW is still with you says a lot. I hope the best for both of you, whatever that is. As you already know, if she goes the grass won't be greener and she'll eventually realize her error, whether she ever admits it or not, and will probably try to come back. Just keep DBing and leave her be. She'll figure it out sooner or later.

Quote:

3) Aknowledging ... that yeah .... maybe this behavior is telling me that she's not somebody I can/want to build a life with in the future. But me being mad at her won't change that. If my D has to grow up in 2 houses ... I guess she does. It wasn't my decision ... but it isn't the end of the world.

I'd like to know more about your feelings with regards to this and why you feel this way. I find I tell myself this very same thing quite often. I can't decide if it is just my ego, my hurt feelings, or if I really feel this way and am done - which contradicts the way I feel about my vows, the continuity of my family, and my D's happiness. I just dunno. I think, deep down, I want to go back to before all this sh!t started. From here it just seems like such a long road to never getting quite there, causing me to I wonder if it is worth it.

Try to stay positive - LOL, now there's some hypocritical advice coming from me, a natural cynic.

Hi Everybody.

onMyWay ..... thanks for that post. Sounds like we're in very much the same place.

That is an interesting question you posed. Why would we feel that the W leaving us is a sign that they are not for us? Well, for me, it is because people screw up. In fact, I believe she had another EA, maybe PA ... and has decided that since married people shouldn't do this repeatedly .. she shouldn't be married.

So, my problem with this ... is that it's a sign of weakness. It's one thing to say "listen, I messed up ... and I'm sorry .. what can I do to fix it?". But, that didn't happen with her EA back in '07 either. She can't handle anybody being mad at her ... and handles any sort of criticism about the worst of anybody I know well. Basically, like a child. Therapists say this is because her childhood was messed up.

Listen, I make mistakes ... I've made huge mistakes. And I say "here's what I did ..... it was my fault ... I'm sorry ... I will do what it takes to make it right". It isn't fun to do it, and it isn't comfortable. But, I take my lumps and move on. I own it.

She seems to have decided that just quitting is easier. Ok, fine honey ..... but what choice did the baby get? You want to read any of the reports on how divorce affects children? No, that would be contrary to your plan .... and therefor invalid.

So a life with this person, is probably going to be a life where this happens over and over. So, I guess that part is my fault. I chose a broken person knowingly. But, I always thought she would want to be better. Now, I know different.

Wow. Sounds like we are married to the exact same woman.

I think you nail it right on the head. Thanks for the insight. This all makes so much sense.

Something I used to get before she decided to move out: She always said she was "trying," which I believe was code for "this isn't worth that much effort, but I'll see what happens." When I'd call her on it, I'd get the obligatory, "well, I'm still here aren't I?"

Of course, now, she's not. The only time she turns around is when I agree with her and actually push her harder towards her goal. When she repeated said, "I want a divorce" and I finally said, "Ok. Let's get this done this week," would she then say we were going to fast. Or two weeks ago, I got "I'm going to have my attorney draw up papers" during a fight we were having. I calmly came back to her the next day and agreed that was exactly what she needed to do. She hasn't done it.

Have you offered to help your WAW move out yet? Make her comfortable in her new place? Don't know if that would work in your sitch, but I love agreeing with her craziness now. It's like a game for me to watch the exact opposite happen.

I'm still in moderations, so my replies are delayed. Keep posting so I can monitor your results/progress. Your WAW is still around, so you have many more chances at DBing than I do. Good luck with it.

Hi OMW ...... yes, I have had a similar experience. In fact, I KNOW ... that the reason she hasn't moved out yet is because I stopped fighting her on it. I'm letting her own this. As I repeat to myself at least every hour I'm awake ... "she is her problem now"

I haven't offered to help her move yet ... because I'm not sure it is authentic to how I feel. I would help in a heartbeat, IF SHE ASKS. But, not sure that offering would be genuine. She hates asking for help .. but ... time to grow up, honey.

hi iron

good for you!

i think that is exactly right

if she wants it so be it, but don't do anything to hasten it along or help

my husband says we need to put up our place in the west coast,,

it needs so much fixing up

he was there last week (all by himself) and had all the time in the world to work on things, and all he did was skateboard

Originally Posted By: grr

hi iron
it needs so much fixing up

he was there last week (all by himself) and had all the time in the world to work on things, and all he did was skateboard

Haha. Something about the image of a grown man skateboarding instead of fixing his house just put a huge smile on my face. I'm not smiling at your expense .... just picturing an overgrown man-child. A male incarnation of the current iteration of my W.

Does he have to pull his pants up with one hand while skating like all the kids I see? haha

Well, Grr ... seems you're a mother of 2 little boys.

My Mom was an elementary school teacher ... so she had lots of tricks to play on me when I was being a snotty kid. One I remember vividly ..... is that I, like many 2nd graders, thought that farting with my armpit was HILARIOUS. So, instead of being disgusted, and telling me to stop ... my mom said .. "wow, that's amazing. Let's see if you can do that for 10 minutes straight".

Of course, your arm got tired, and you didn't even get a reaction out of your mom. Dammit.

Well, I think that's how you deal with overgrown children/WAS as well.

Quote:

She always said she was "trying," which I believe was code for "this isn't worth that much effort, but I'll see what happens."

Oh wow, does this ^^^^^^^^resonate for me .
You've put into words exactly what I felt when my H. said, " he tried" it in the counselors' office. In fact he said it often I looked at him once and said " What exactly was it that you tried?" and he was silent.

W was especially distraught yesterday. I didn't seek to fix anything for her. She is her problem now.

But, I sense she is planning another big move. And this will be scary for sure. But, it will be ok and I will be ok.

Today, I noticed how good it feels just to breathe. You ever breathe really deeply and fill your lungs? The kind that fills them and makes your belly move..... it just feels good. The air is cool as it enters ...and you feel the oxygen hit your blood.

I'm alive. And it's good. My road will be a good one. Where she goes is up to her.

Well, I pushed a very little ... more than I should've ... but was mostly just validating etc. tonight.

W told me why she was so upset yesterday ..... the place she was gong to move into on the 15th fell thru.

So, I kind of thought she was upset because of the effect this is having on our daughter ..... nope .... she was feeling sorry for herself. Well, at least she's consistent.

Me .... I feel like ...... whatever crazy lady ..... life goes on without you.

Kind of quiet on this thread ironMan? You ok?

Hi OnMyWay Thanks for checking on me :-)

Umm, I don't know. Usually I'm good. I have some hard times though.

She has stopped wearing her ring since last Weds. She hid from my family when they came to visit .... and then decided she'd come to dinner with us.

Yesterday, on my birthday .... she took me out to dinner. She gave me a kiss afterwards. I slipped, and asked for another ...she obliged though.

I got a pretty good buzz on during dinner and she drove home. On the way home, she got pulled over for changing lanes without signalling. She was very upset and crying. She then didn't have her current insurance card .... and she got upset at me. She said it was my fault ..... I validated ... just let her vent. Much different interaction than what we would've had in the past.

She then said that karma was getting her. This is the 2nd or 3rd time she made a comment like that. I asked her why she thought karma was after her. She said that it was because she was a bad person. I asked her what she meant .. and she said that she's bad because she is splitting up her family for selfish reasons.

How weird is that?

I woke up that night in a cold sweat ..... I had a nightmare that she told me she was getting ready to have a 3-way with 2 other guys. The thought of her with someone else makes me physically ill. I'm doing very well with everything else .. but we are each other's 1st and only.

On that note .... it's been 5 months of celibacy for me now. I'm starting to really resent her for that. Women check me out at the gym ... and I wonder .... why am I wearing my ring?

I dunno ..... this whole thing [censored]. She's a broken person who is about as selfish as they come.

So, all in all I've been very well but I've had some ACUTE pain at times.

She says she's moving in with her mom now ... which she vowed never to do. To be honest, I would rather she lived on her own so she could see how much that sucked.

But, I am looking forward to her moving out so I can heal myself.

I'm starting 2 new hobbies. My life is going to be very fun this summer.

Anyway .... I have to say .... I kinda hate her right now.

Is she getting any counseling? We've both said this before, but we suspect we are married to the same woman.

Mine finally decided to get some pro help. While I doubt I'll benefit from it, I'm glad she's beginning to see she can't handle it on her own anymore. I suspect the guilt of leaving her D behind has finally caught up with her.

Well, off to DB tonight - first time the 3 of us will be together since she left. I'm here for ya if you need to vent or W-bash, or what ever.

I have been reading the boards ..... but I've been so busy, and I'm just in limbo so I haven't updated much.

OMW, yes .... she finally found a therapist that she liked. She has a boatload of issues from her childhood which she has until now refused to even think about. When she would act screwy, I'd remind her that this was probably due to some of those ... she ran away from them/me .... things would get quiet ... repeat as necessary.

Also, she felt the need to try to make therapists like her rather than using them to help her.

Funny you say it now though ..... I don't even know if she's still going. I don't ask. Not my problem.

Also, her going to counciling seemed to re-enforce that she shouldn't be married. That she had to live on her own two feet.

So, I'd say basically all of the therapy her and US went to actually was working against the marriage.

What's new ... let's see .... she took off her ring. She decided to go eat with my family on my birthday last week .. and didn't wear it then either. This was very sad for me.

I asked her on my birthday ... just asked her why she wasn't wearing the ring any longer ....... she got teary eyed and said "I don't know". WHAT? like talking to a child. I feel like Bill Cosby ... "was your head with you all day?"

She got all upset ... turns out it was because she had a place to move into lined up ... but it fell thru. So now, she plans on moving in with her Mom, Stepdad, and his 2 highschool kids. She said she would NEVER, EVER do this. As her mom is the source of many of her issues. Well, yet another NEVER WOULD that she is breaking.

This weekend, she started wearing her ring again. She also crawled in bed and slept with me on Sat night. She didn't say a thing about either, and I didn't ask.

She does keep saying "since I'll be gone soon" ... "since I'll be at my mom's soon" etc. So, she's moving out. Fine with me.

I started a cool martial art last night. I'm buying a racing go-kart and will be doing a race a month plus 1 practice day a month.

I have plans for Friday and Saturday nights.

I continue to workout hard, take care of the dogs, and have a blast with my daughter. New job is coming along nicely and I like the people.

LIFE IS GOOD!

She is her problem now. If she divorces me I think there will be a line of prospects for me. Turns out that fun, intelligent, fit, and successful men are in short supply.

Well, she left yesterday ... to "try it out". I'll post more from the weekend later.

I actually feel ok. Was nice to not have her around to make me think about the situation.

I miss my daughter though. Seeing her every morning was the best part of my life.

ugg ..... kind of a dull ache in my heart this afternoon.

This isn't what I wanted for my life. Its sad.

I won't sit around and be sad. I have GOTTEN a life and it is getting better. But today is kinda hard.

Feels like somebody died.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

Also, her going to counciling seemed to re-enforce that she shouldn't be married. That she had to live on her own two feet.

So, I'd say basically all of the therapy her and US went to actually was working against the marriage.

I've read about that. My one experience with a psychiatrist was the same - he basically told me that my H was abusive.
MLC can make people abusive, thats true, but if you know how the person was in the first place then you know somewhere in there is a good man/woman.

My gut feel for my sitch is not to go.

Perhaps retrouvaille, yes, I would like that.

I do believe bad therapy is worse than no therapy, Angel

Iron man , I have been following your sitch for some time but just have responded as I feel overwhelmed by My sitch and the ones that I have been with for awhile.

I know how you feel about it being sad. The worse thing in my heart is that it is all so pointless and that I do believe that they will wake up some day but by that time there will have been sooooo much damage done and putting it back together although not impossible , will be very difficult with no guarantees.

You are allowed to be sad sometimes when the finality hits but try not and dwell on it.

The part that overwhelms and makes me feel so helpless is not sharing in my sons life all the time now. The grow up so fast an now I can only experience half of it.

Out of my control. Happy you appear to be bouncing back.

All the best

9

Hi ninelives,
Thanks, I appreciate your posting. Yes, I often think she'll change her mind someday. And when that day comes .... I'll be long gone. Fine for everybody except the little baby.

And, that's where I will focus.

1) Be the best dad I can be. This is her ONLY childhood, I don't want to waste a day of it.

2) Grow as much as I can. Pursue my new hobbies. Excel at my new job. And, be The World's Most Interesting Man, in the flesh.

So, she was supposed to be home tonight because she was "just seeing how the baby would adjust" to sleeping at Grandma's with WAW.

She decided to just stay there from now on.

W's Mom invited me to dinner since I changed my plans so that I could see my D.

I ate dinner with them .... it was INCREDIBLY difficult. W gave me a hug .. asked how I was doing. I told her I was good but today was hard.

She said she had a hard day too. I asked her if she was staying at her Mom's for good now ... she said she was thinking maybe yes .... and asked why. I told her I was making plans and wanted to know what to plan around so I wanted to know what she was doing.

She said, "I don't know what I'm doing"

She really has stumbled through this whole thing. Very strange for somebody that was always a planner.

I have had a very hard time tonight. I feel like there is a hole in my soul.

But, I'm going to stay busy. I'm not dreading things ... I just wish I wasn't in this situation.

Just to get caught up on recent events ..... this weekend she stopped wearing her ring again. I didn't say anything.

On Saturday, she told me she was going to stay at her mom's for a night or two to see how the baby did. I asked "what does it matter? you're not doing this to help her sleep well"

She got mad, said I was mean, said I hadn't changed at all, and said I was an [censored].

I said above in a very calm voice ... and wasn't being snotty about it. I was just stating that D was going to have to get used to life like this. And if D didn't sleep well there, that wouldn't change W's plans.

But, she has always, always hated being wrong. And, I haven't done it often ..... but I do occasionally remind her that this isn't what I want, but understand it is what she feels is necessary. And she gets angry .... she doesn't want to feel like the bad guy. She keeps bringing up how Karma is getting her for splitting up her family too.

She then said I would need to sign some documents spelling out arrangements and we need to discuss who will pay what bills and some other details. I let her know I wasn't interested in helping her figure any of this out. And I told her, that this was her project not mine. I had no interest in planning the destruction of my family.

So, I haven't mentioned any of that since. Now, time for my plan that I have been working on since the separation. I'm going DARK. Only communication between us will be regarding D.

So, time to be a great dad
Be a friend to W, when W calls me
Go live my own life. Stay busy ... keep with my new martial art .... get a racing go kart ... keep going out with colleagues.

I'm going to have a lot of fun ... but know I will be sad at times too.

It's perfectly normal to feel sad at times. I'd be worried if you didn't feel that emotion from time to time.

You have a great attitude about everything, and that is a major plus for you.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

But, she has always, always hated being wrong. And, I haven't done it often ..... but I do occasionally remind her that this isn't what I want, but understand it is what she feels is necessary. And she gets angry .... she doesn't want to feel like the bad guy.

Perhaps we need to exchange W photos to be sure we aren't married to the same woman. OMG, this sounds so familiar!

Breath deep ironMan. Next few days will be difficult, but this day has long been coming and I'm glad it's finally over with for you. Now you can begin the process of getting over it.

Thanks DelinquintGurl and OnMyWay. Last night and this morning were difficult. But I am so glad to have the support of people on this board. Instead of this being a HORRIBLE event .... it's just an unpleasant one!

I know this dull ache in my heart will get better with time .... I just have to make sure I guide my life in a positive direction.

IronMan:

What is coming is going to be very hard. When they live with you it is easier in a way. You get frustrated much easier and you learn to accept the fact that they are leaving. Sometimes you almost wish it so that the rollercoaster stops. You are mad one minute and sad the next. You say things like �good. Go have fun and see how much it is out there without me� Mostly in your head.

Then they leave.

Now comes a different set of emotions all together. Denial is one. Anger. Frustration. Just to name a few. It is important at this point that you start to reflect and do yourself growth. You having nothing in the way at this point, take the time and do the work. You have come a long way from where you started.

In the army we do force marches sometimes 12miles sometimes 24 miles. At some point after 10 miles it does not matter how far you have to go because you can�t feel your shoulders your back your feet are bleeding and it is the easiest time to stop moving and just get on the truck. The worse part of these marches is not how long they are, it is knowing you can stop walking at anytime and get on the truck or the bus that�s trailing you. It is in mile 10 that you start to find yourself. This is where your mettle is tested and your grit starts to pull through. Whenever everything in your being is telling you to stop and you take one more step, then another then another. Don�t get me wrong the entire thing s%$ks but You are now in mile 10 heading towards mile 24. Empty house is no house at all. You have the right idea on how to proceed. The implementation is a little harder to do but stay the course and be strong. You know where to find me if you need to talk.

Hate to say it but I know how you feel cause I have been there.

2step .... WOW!!! WOW WOW. Thank you so much.

I have ALWAYS been known for refusing to quit. Around here, hiking a 14er, or riding a very long mountain bike trail feels as you describe it. You get bloody, you hurt, and at some point ... you know it is really YOU, that you are finding and fighting against. You learn to blast though perceived limitations and find out what you're really capable of.

I guess that is what now is. Well, 2step, if I were on mile 10 with a 50lb pack on my back, I'd just keep putting one foot in front of the other and not worry too much about the finish line. That's what I'll do here as well.

Thank you so much for putting that perspective to it. Sometimes I'm tempted to just go get a GF and blow up the M and show my W the middle finger, and remind her this is all her fault.

But, that won't help much. So, I'll just keep walking thru the pain.

You just entered mile 10. Time to tighten up the pack wipe the tears of pain away and start walking on pure will power and stubbornness, the stubbornness to no quit because quitting is the easiest thing in the world for anyone us to do. It�s not about being a doormat; it�s about finding the better Ironman in the end. The guys on the bus get no respect if they just quit. The ones at the finish line who can hardly walk and are pi$$ing blood are the ones who celebrate. They have accomplished something.

You my friend will celebrate��..but not yet.

Now comes the pain.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

Sometimes I'm tempted to just go get a GF and blow up the M and show my W the middle finger, and remind her this is all her fault.

Go ahead and get the GF if you want (eventhough it is not recommended here), but only because it makes you feel better, not because you have something to prove. You know giving the W the proverbial finger (literal or otherwise) will only make you the bad guy. Right or wrong, you can't rub any of this in her face.

After my WAW moved out, I got asked out by a hot chick who was much younger than me. Mind you, I know this board looks down on dating and I don't recommend it, but a few things did happen. First, my W had already given me her blessing to actively date, so I figured there was no harm in it, although she was surprised it happened so soon (3 days after moving out). Second, due the to age difference and the fact that this OW is very attractive, it was a HUGE boost to my badly bruised ego. Third, my DB Coach approved, so I figured, again, it was ok. Last, it actually made my W jealous, although she is rather guarded about admitting it and says she doesn't care. That night, though, she texted me at 9pm that she was all of a sudden "too tired" to drive home to her place and stayed in our home with our D, an obvious ploy to make sure I didn't bring OW home. Very odd for a W who doesn't care about me or what I do. I made sure I stayed out until 4am that night.

Now, I do NOT have a R with this OW and have been nothing but honest with her. She took me out mainly to let me vent and to get me away from my sitch. It was very kind of her. W, however, doesn't know any of the details of my R with her and I'm keeping it that way, as it's none of her business. Point is I have made it a point to NOT rub this OW in W's face. I admit to letting W imagine it in her own mind by not giving up any details, but I've never been anything more than respectful. I always approach from the standpoint of "this is what you wanted" and "I'm simply moving on because you wanted me to."

In an odd way, it seems to be working. I've found out through facebook, she's let her family know about this supposed "OW." There's nothing they can say about it, because they know W cheated on me, asked me for a D, then left me. So, It's hard to argue with me regarding anything I'm perceived of doing with an OW (which is nothing). For some reason, I find this all very humorous.

I guess, ironMan, what I am trying to say is be happy, sure, but alway remain "politically correct" even though it is so tempting throw an nasty "eff ewe" her way and know you are within your rights to do so. I guess it just comes down to being the bigger person, eh? In order to gain our freedom, we have to do this correctly or we loose much more.

What's new w/ u iM? Kind of quiet latley. Thought somebody ought to check on you. What's happening for the weekend?

Hey OnMyWay!!

Sorry, just been so busy. I had my first solo Weds/Thurs/Fri/Sat/Sunday with my D. Went fine. We stayed busy and had a great time. I had some buddies over and prepared Easter dinner for us all.

I am sad sometimes .. but mostly feeling pretty good to have nutty WAW out of the house for the time being.

I've been busy finding a racing go kart to buy, doing my new martial art, and re-arranging the house a bt.

I will post more tomorrow as I've had many interesting interactions with WAW.

How are you OMW??

Rearranging the house . . . That's one I've done, including installing new faucets and a dishwasher. WAW hated that I did all that work after she left. But, I feel better about the place, so gonna do floors next.

Yeah, post the good stuff! Let's hear it.

iM! Where are you? Everything ok. Give us an update so we know you are alright.

Ok, I haven't been around in awhile. I need to get caught up on everybody. I have just been very busy with the new job, and GAL-ing hard core. Life has been good, and I wake up happy every day. And then .... a curveball.

So, last week on Weds my W came over to the house in the morning to drop off some clothes for the baby. We ended up talking a bit, and having a cup of coffee together. Very pleasant, and I ended the convo.

Fast forward to Thurs night. W called me to talk about something. I don't remember. She said she wanted to meet to discuss some things in person. I asked her to tell me what the subject matter was .... she said a timeline for the separation, as well as my plans to sell the house. I told her I didn't see the point of setting a timeline. And, I'd sell the house when we figured out what we were doing.

Friday night, her family invited me to go out to eat with W and all of them .. to celebrate W's step-siblings being in town, and my D's birthday. So, I met them and we had fun like we usually did. W seemed kinda odd, but I wasn't too worried about it.

Sat, W forgot her car keys in Ds backpack. So, she came over right before Ds nap-time. She came over, and we had a serious talk after that. She again brought up the issue about setting a timeline. And, I again told her I didn't see any point in doing that. And, that I could end this anytime I felt like it just as she could. She looked kinda shocked.
Next, she brought up dating other people. She told me that she'd appreciate it if I told her before I decided to do that. I told her that I wasn't sure how a married person could date other people. And thought that wasn't the right hting to do. She then asked me if I'd like to know if she was going to start dating ...... I told her I didn't even feel comfortable discussing whether I'd like to know. And, I asked her what a guy that dated married women would be like? And I also told her that if she started dating that it would tell me a lot about who she was. ..... she got pissed. I didn't worry about it but just told her I was just answering her questions and expressing my opinion. She said that separated people need to date other sometimes. I told her to just do whatever she felt comfortable with then. I know what I'm comfortable with.

Then, we went downstairs so that the baby wouldn't hear us. We talked more. Then she cuddled up against me. Finally ending up curled on me, snuggling. After awhile, she gave me a kiss on the lips and left. Strange turn-around eh?
So, I go about my business the rest of the day. Get D into bed. And I get a text from W. She asks "wanna watch a movie?". I said sure.

She came over. Looking good! She said she was supposed to go out on a bachelorette party but didn't feel like it. We snuggled up, and she slept up against me. After the movie, I told her I was going to bed and she could sleep wherever she wanted. After awhile, she came up and crawled in bed with me and we slept until D woke up.

We made breakfast, and played as a family. Like old times.

She then asked me if maybe she could stay here the next weekend. I said, yeah, we can talk about that. Then, she asked me if I might like to go on a date with her ... and I said, we can talk about that too.

So, I'm slow playing it. If she asked to move back tomorrow, I'd say No. I'm really not ready for this. And she's going to have to do some work to get her foot back in the door here. I'm expecting a major pullback. Anyway, I'm going to need some space for awhile .

But I had to post this. I never thought she'd do any of this stuff a week ago. Very, very crazy!

Not sure if I think you should be smiling... or running away, bravely...

Maybe a bit of both...?

HAHAHAHA, ironMan, you crack me up!

You are one cool customer. I need to go back an reread your whole thread. And you need to post more often. I think there's some details here you are leaving out.

Watch out for that pull-back. You may become some sort of major a-hole if she slips - but you already know that, don't you.

Keep up the good work.

OnMyWay

Oh boy. 2x4 Inc on this one.

First of all. Kudos to you IMO for handling this the way you are. Testicular Fortitude. Sincerely. But....

You are being played my friend.

First of all, ask yourself...Does she respect me?

THEN ask YOURSELF "Do I want an Open Marriage?" "Will I share my Wife with another Man?"

If you answer these questions with a "No". Then you need to just flat out out make that known to your Wife. Not in a controlling, possessive manner, but in a way that you show her that you accept her decision on what she wants, but that's not what YOU want or will tolerate. DAMN IT. Tell her and ASK for what you want.

Not to be a jerk, but she's obviously done something and if not, she's VERY close. Her snuggling with you is a way to smooth her conscience. Not to mention that she's asking you about dating and then getting pissed off at a highly moral answer.I'm not saying give up, but man in hindsight she's testing your response because of something.

You handled this very well, but there are some serious flags. I'd keep doing what your doing, but I would find out what is the truth and make your decision from there. They will be AWESOME to you while they go through this, best be aware. They will endear themselves more than normal. etc. All I see is red flags.

I would hate to have to see a post down the road where you think your in control and everything is good, but you found out the hard way.

I'm sorry but this is the truth. Trust if you can, but at this point verify. My prayers are with you friend.

Yes, I agree with most of what OnMyWay, Kaffe Diem, and Faith have said. I don't view this as a victory. This just means she still doesn't know what she wants. She still doesn't like herself or her life much. But, she is no longer seeing me as the problem. That doesn't mean we're going to end up together. But it does mean she's considering that as an outcome she'd like, again.

Faith, yeah, that thought has occurred to me as well. However, I can't control what she has done, or will do. If she dated somebody, is that when I throw in the towel and give up on the marriage? Why should I draw such lines in the sand ... and why do you feel them to be a moral necessity?

She asked me what I thought, and I told her, truthfully and not being manipulative. I can't very well demand she play by my rules when she's not sure she wants to play at all.

So, for now, I have to keep doing what I have been. Anyway, I'm enjoying the bachelor lifestyle. She has to find out where her life is going to go. I can't show her anymore. As I've said all along, she is her problem now.

I have plenty of things to keep my busy in the meantime. And I wake up happy every day.

I know I need to come here more ... I have been enjoying not thinking about all this garbage though ...... my W is now pursuing me to some extent. She asked me on a date, WE went and had a great time. We have another date this Friday.

I am growing resentful though. It has been 7 months since we ML. And, I don't think I will make 12 before I quit this.

She is less selfish, but still selfish. She says now that she is/was very selfish to leave. And that she needs to list of things she did that hurt me if we are to R.

For now, we're just dating. Not sure I would keep dating a woman that wouldn't even kiss me deeply though. So, now, the clock is ticking on her I feel.

Anyway, sorry I haven't been here to help all of you. I just had to get away from my sitch, and from the whole miserable world of WAS.

I can promise you this .... with or without your spouse .... happiness is a choice. Choose happiness.

Good to see you again Iron. Glad things are sort of progressing.

The ML thing? Tough call, I cant imagine what it would be like to be with my W for that long without having some kind of contact but in the grand scheme, it is a small thing to sacrifice for NOW.

I know that my W could not really make Love to me when she reconciled because she was wrapped up with OM, I hope that isnt happening in your sitch.

Hope things go your way iron.

9

Yeah 9 .... that thought has crossed my mind a number of times as well.

Bottom line ... just because she's coming back around doesn't mean she's any less confused than when she asked for a separation, or moved out. It may mean she's more confused.

She goes thru periods where she talks about where we would live, etc. And, I try not to get wrapped up in them.

It's like an MMA fight ...... and I'm trying not to get complacent and get taken to the mat.

Originally Posted By: ironMan

Yeah 9 .... that thought has crossed my mind a number of times as well.

Bottom line ... just because she's coming back around doesn't mean she's any less confused than when she asked for a separation, or moved out. It may mean she's more confused.

She goes thru periods where she talks about where we would live, etc. And, I try not to get wrapped up in them.

It's like an MMA fight ...... and I'm trying not to get complacent and get taken to the mat.

Good idea Ironman! I've become complacent a couple of times and been taken to the mat and put in a figure four leg lock!! LOL... not a pleasant experience!

You're doing great! Sounds like you are really in the position of needing to decide if YOU want the M ...

BITS
Denver

Just got a text from my W I thought I would share with everybody:

w: "Thanks for bringing baby over this morning"

m: "no problem"

w: "It was great to see u too."

m: "Good seeing you too"

w: "I am really hopeful because of our recent time and conversations"

w: "Thank u for giving things a chance again"

m: "I am really proud of the reflection you have done. We have both grown as humans. I am hopeful too".

Whoa .... this is a new stage for us. It has been slowly developing.

How did we get here? She moved out. I went DARK. She started texting me once in awhile. Then, she started calling. I tried very hard to make every communication with me purely positive. I asked her about work. I didn't complain. I GAL .... hard core. GAL GAL GAL GAL. I started new hobbies. I told her about all the cool things I was doing.

She asked me on a date. We talked a bunch. She told me she's sorry .... she knows she hurt me. I said yes, it had. But, that I know we had both grown out of it. Then, we went dancing. That had always been a complaint of hers ... that I didn't dance. But, we went dancing. We had a blast .... and she had a look in her eyes like she wanted to pounce on me that night. Well, I did stay with her.... but there was no pouncing :-)

Over the last few weeks, she has asked me on, and we have gone on several dates. I asked her on one as well. Every time, we have had fun.

This weekend, she asked if she could come up to my parents' house with me. I said yes .. and my parents were ok with it. So, we went up as a family. We had a great time together there was even some intimate time ;-) ..... and had a great time getting to be together like old times ..... with our daughter.

On the way back, we had some very serious conversation. She was asking me if I could ever forgive her ... I said that I thought I could get there in time yes. She said she is scared to move too fast, because she's afraid the same old pattern will emerge. Where, she will go with the flow, then she will decide she doesn't like it, won't say anything ... and then sabbotage things. She's done it countless times. I'm scared of this too .... and told her I was scared too and didn't want to move too fast either.

So ...... I'm not out of the woods ..... not by a long shot. And, I'm not the same person. I'm not 100% convinced I want a M with her anymore. I think I do though. And, I'm willing to work towards that.

The hardest part .... is not to go to bitterville ...... and remind her of all the ways she screwed up. When the R talks get deep, it is hard to to express my pain. But, I don't.

I know there are so many people on this board in various stages. I just wanted to share my update ..... and tell all of you to take CARE OF YOURSELVES. Don't worry about your crazy WAS .... they are their problem now. You have to be ok coming out of this nomatter how it ends.

Awesome IM! Just avoid complacency at all costs. Keep up the great work.

And a very wise statement...

Originally Posted By: ironMan

and tell all of you to take CARE OF YOURSELVES. Don't worry about your crazy WAS .... they are their problem now. You have to be ok coming out of this no matter how it ends.

My hero

WOW! That's is an amazing turn around.

ironman, u r my hero!!! Keep up the good work. . . and post more often. It's always good to read about a positive situation on here.

OMW

Thanks everybody. I need to start a new thread. I will post more regularly as well. I think part of my going dark on W .. was separating from the sitch .... including writing about it or even thinking about it too much.