Deju vu, but new to the online forum...

Where do I start?
First, let me apologize in advance for my post being �all over the place�. It just happens to be the way things are going for me lately. I used to be able to gather my thoughts in writing, but I seem to have lost that.
This is unfortunately the 3rd time I have had to deal w/ WAW. This time feels a lot different. She is more distant and seems like the door has completely shut. I can't put my finger on what is so different this time (other than it being the 3rd) We are living as roommates w/ D5 & D7. I have been working w/ DB coach, but I am in a block mode right now. I am also taking a Dialectic Behavior Therapy class to work on my behavioral issues that, surprise, led to the WAW. I feel stuck and can't seem to get out of my own way. W just left town on business and while sitting at the dinner table w/ my D&D, FIL, MIL and my wife's uncle, she proceeded to smother the kids with goodbyes along with everyone else and didn't even look my way. I know it had to be noticed by everyone else.
I tend to act w/o thought and when faced with adversity, I just continue to drill on my wife looking for some kind of answer and when she shuts down, (which doesn't take too long) I continue to drill her. I do and always have wanted to know the whys of everything that goes on and I am trying to understand that there isn't always an answer. I am trying to learn how to be �mindful� of others thoughts and feelings. I am way too reactionary when it comes to my kids and my wife. I tend to raise my voice(my bi-polar mother was a yeller) to get their(the kids) attention.
I hope through future posts, I can get my thoughts gathered more concisely, but right now, I am feeling a bit panicked and just want to reach out through the forum and hopefully can get a little more grounded. I feel pretty hopeless right now. I have my next appt. w/ my DB coach on Tuesday, but I�m kinda freaking out since I only have 1 left and can�t afford to get any more.
Thanks in advance for listening. I have read quite a bit on the post and know there is a lot of good advice out there.
Can anyone help with the signature part? It tells me I'm using too many characters and I am just trying to type in my 'bio' info.

M42 W38 D5D7 M8

Hi mj!

Welcome! I will see what I can do with your signature.

I'm really glad you joined us, and I'm proud of you for getting the therapy you need. You have an intense road, a lot to work on. It's ok. It isn't easy. Not remotely. It IS doable.

It's extra unique to work on this therapy while trying to repair your marriage. Be good to yourself. Be gentle on yourself. Are you getting meds as well? You may need them, but I assume your therapist is on top of that. My clue is I used to be able to gather my thoughts in writing, but I seem to have lost that.
Keep trying. A journal will be very valuable to you.

The behaviors you described that push your wife away have to stop for your situation to change. That isn't going to be easy for you to do. You are going to want to react. But each time you stop yourself, you will get more empowered, and you will feel good about yourself. And that will help you the NEXT time you stop yourself.

This is a great community with lots of folks willing to help. So realize there is hope. LOTS of it.

Your signature line:

Click on 'my stuff', then 'edit profile', then scroll down and type your info in the box. Click 'submit'.

If you still have trouble, click 'notify' and the administrator can fix it for you.

Thank you. I can assure you that being good and/or gentle on myself is not something I am doing very well right now. I am very thankful to see that you responded to my post tonight. I was in a pretty bad place.
I get a text from my wife just as my DBT class is starting asking me 'when I get a minute this evening, can I have the kids call her.' It hit me pretty hard on the wings of her leaving without saying goodbye. I realize now that I should have been proactive and said goodbye to her. I was actually anticipating what happened, happening, so it's quite possible she read my body language and then proceeded to leave. Anyway, I had the kids call her and sure enough, she ended the call w/o asking to talk to me. It's the first time I have had to deal with that since she doesn't travel often. It was a stressful night w/ the kids by myself getting home late from class and then homework, etc. and then the phone call.
I am on meds, however, I think that I need some adjustment. It turns out that I had a rash a couple months ago, which is a side affect from the anti-anxiety meds I was taking before and since they couldn't really determine what the rash was from, they put my last med on my allergic to list. I had been on it for almost 5 years. I have been on my new meds for onl;y a couple months and have been feeling pretty anxious of late. I may be overwhelming myself with DB'ing, therapy and DBT class. I need to find some direction.
I am speaking with my DB coach tomorrow, but like I mentioned, I only have 1 more session. I am hoping that through this forum, I can somewhat replace her until I can possibly afford more sessions. I was hoping that I was only going to need 6 since the last 2 times I had to deal w/ WAW, we were back together in just a couple months.
I have a feeling I am going to be using this resource A LOT.

Still can't create a signature

M42 W38 D5D7 M8

Hi mj144. Welcome.

I think I have found the glitch. Try creating your signature now. It should work just fine.

Had a good session w/ my DB coach this morning. I was made to realize that I rely on my W for my happiness. It makes sense now that she would say,"Damned if I do, damned if I don't"
I am going to approach her with what I learned today when she gets back from her trip tonight.

Originally Posted By: mj144

Had a good session w/ my DB coach this morning. I was made to realize that I rely on my W for my happiness. It makes sense now that she would say,"Damned if I do, damned if I don't"
I am going to approach her with what I learned today when she gets back from her trip tonight.

Did your DB coach tell you to approach your wife with this information?

Yes, and that's it.

Ok I would just advise that you have NO EXPECTATIONS that this will do anything.

You can have HOPE but expectations are not a good thing.

I am so overwhelmed right now with everything in my life, dealing with adjusting to new meds, taking DBT class, WAW and 1 thing I had yet to mention was that I was a self medicator. I smoked A LOT of pot behind my wife's back. I haven't touched in over 3 months. My DB coach thinks, and I agree that I hit a wall recently after coming off the 'high' of my self realization and 'good place' I thought I was in when I decided to take charge of things, right before my wife dropped the, "I'm not happy, I want a divorce" bomb. I initiated the changes right before the s... hit the fan. Obviously, I sensed it coming.
We are still living together and even sleeping in the same bed. It's awkward, but I'll take it.
Just got off the phone with my Drs office. Added another med to help with sleep and hopefully my mood. We'll see.

I will not have any expectations. Thanks for the advice. We communicate so little right now, and I haven't exactly been too bubbly lately, I think it can't hurt for her to hear that I have a realization about our past troubles.

It sounds like you have a list of things to work on.
Keep on doing those 180's.
I understand how living like that can be awkward but it can be done, take my word for it.

Make sure you continue to take care of YOU and be the best DAD that you can be.

Living like that is awkward and can be draining, but there are positives. If you make true changes, your W will see them...but pretending like that is not easy, but can be done. Many of us have. One day at a time.

Tried to engage my wife in conversation when she got home from her business trip with, "how was the trip?", etc. All I got was one word answers. It's like talking to an ice princess. I then tried to talk to her about the girls and holiday gifts since I am taking them on a trip to my brother's next week. The girls both want American Girl dolls and I told my wife that my brother was going to get them for them. She immediately went on the offensive saying that's what her sister was going to get and got really pissy. You see, my brother and his wife have no concept on how to buy presents, especially for girls(they have 2 boys) and I figured it would be best if I told them specifically what to buy them and avoid them buying some disaster of a gift. So, I asked the girls what they wanted and they told me, so I passed that on to my brother. I politely told her that her sister has more creativity when it comes to buying presents, couldn't she buy them something else? She then went on a rant about how I better make sure they know the right one's to get, yada, yada. Unbelievable. I just let her go. Well, I had no idea that these dolls were $100/ea. and that was more than my brother would spend, so after all that, the point is moot.

I am really struggling with my mood lately. I took off work yesterday as I was in a really bad place. I am in sales, so taking the last day of the month off is not a good thing to do. Especially when I had a really crappy month. I had a talk with my boss today and he is aware of everything that is going on and he is trying to be supportive. He is suggesting to me that I take a leave from work, because apparently(shock) my attitude has been dragging my sales team down from his eyes. I'm in a lose/lose situation that if I do take the leave, my wife is sure to go over the edge and if I don't, I am being horribly ineffective at work and now, I am being told I am being detrimental to others. I have been trying to trudge my way through my depression, but apparently have not been too effective. Well, I assured him that I would 'fake it until I make it' with my attitude and when I am completely overwhelmed, I will take the day off.

I feel like everything is crashing in on me and I don't know where to start to try and take hold. It feels like the only positive I have right now in my life is my kids.

I can't be presenting myself as being too strong to W lately and I feel I'm losing ground in my battle.

Originally Posted By: mj144

I have been trying to trudge my way through my depression, but apparently have not been too effective.

You have a 180 that you can do here.
Take care of yourself first.

Maybe start excercising.
Have you ever heard of St Johns Wort?
It is a vitamin for depression.
You need to pull yourself up and get out of YOUR depression.
No one else is going to do that for YOU!

If all of that fails there is no shame in going on antidepressants.
That can take the edge off and maybe get you back on the right track.

I am really struggling with my mood lately. I took off work yesterday as I was in a really bad place. I am in sales, so taking the last day of the month off is not a good thing to do. Especially when I had a really crappy month. I had a talk with my boss today and he is aware of everything that is going on and he is trying to be supportive. He is suggesting to me that I take a leave from work, because apparently(shock) my attitude has been dragging my sales team down from his eyes. I'm in a lose/lose situation that if I do take the leave, my wife is sure to go over the edge and if I don't, I am being horribly ineffective at work and now, I am being told I am being detrimental to others. I have been trying to trudge my way through my depression, but apparently have not been too effective. Well, I assured him that I would 'fake it until I make it' with my attitude and when I am completely overwhelmed, I will take the day off.

I feel like everything is crashing in on me and I don't know where to start to try and take hold. It feels like the only positive I have right now in my life is my kids.

I can't be presenting myself as being too strong to W lately and I feel I'm losing ground in my battle.
_________________________

Hi mj,

Your employer is trying to protect you. He's giving you a chance to 'DB' your job using the LRT. Getting a time out. Take it and take and FMLA to protect yourself.

Use this time to do a 180 with your job. Focus on the therapy you need and adjusting your meds to focus. Get your game plan for your job to become the complete opposite of what your employer has described to you.

This will impress your wife.

The American Girl industry and product line is HUGE. Let your wife's sister have first dibs. Ask them to suggest what your brother/sister should purchase in the same line that her sister chooses. Everybody will be happy.

Dialectic Therapy is just really different, and isn't fast. But you do need some help focusing.

Ask your buddies on this site to help you stay focused and gain your PMA.

I really admire you for going down this path of growth. Someone very close to me has gone through this and has taken a time out from it. I don't really suggest that. Keep it up. I'm proud of you.

Cadet,
I am exercizing. I am 8 weeks into p90X and feel great. I am also on 3 different meds, unfortunately, they are tweaking them as we speak to try and get it right. I have been on antidepressants for years and just as all the s*** hit the fan, I had to change my meds that I have been taking for almost 5 years due to what they think may have been an alergic reaction. Frankly, the rash was due to stress IMO.

dbmod,
I fear that if I take FMLA, it will have the exact opposite effect on my wife and it will be the 'straw that breaks the camels back'. Part of her issues with me is that I told her about a PIP that I was on the end of this summer after the fact while she was contemplating cutting her hours back to spend more time with my kids before and after school. I kept it from her out of fear and embarrasment. Then the whole rash thing happened and I did take a 2 wk FMLA, came clean to her about the PIP and my pot usage that was when she decided she wanted a D. I basically took the FMLA to keep from getting canned and then had 2 stellar months because I was on a 'high' about taking charge of my life and attacking the WAW situation with gangbusters. I have just run out of energy in the last few weeks and hit a wall.

I am in a very complicated situation that I feel like no matter what I do, it won't be enough to save my marriage. I have too much to overcome.

Oh, and thank you both for the input.

Originally Posted By: mj144

I have just run out of energy in the last few weeks and hit a wall.

This happens to all of us.
Pick yourself up dust yourself off and get back to what you were doing.
If you must rest first that is ok.
We all cycle up and down.
Try to ride out the down cycles and get back to the up cycle.

At least you are trying to take care of this.
Keep plugging and work with your doctor on the meds.
They will get it straightened out.

mj--

If you take it, you have a better chance of saving your job. Losing your job would probably have a worse affect on your wife. I believe your boss was warning you in the only way he's allowed to legally. Please consider it very carefully.

There is another way to do this. You can use it 'intermittently. It protects you. You don't have to leave completely to do it. It gives you 12 weeks. If you take them intermittently you are protected as best as you can be over the full time of using it. So you can take two hours or a half day a week. The most important thing during this time is to show the 180. Demonstrate signifcant improvement in your attitude to your boss and coworkers during this time. A promise to do it will not suffice.
mj--you are in a very tough situation. It isn't likely to be resolved quickly. The FMLA will give you some protection with your job and if you take it intermittently (only your doctor has to agree, at least grab the form from HR tomorrow), you may not need to reveal this to your wife immediately.

It's definitely a tough situation. But I think you have to take the "right" action without being afraid of what she will think or do. In a way it seems to me you really don't have anything to lose. If you take the leave, and do what needs to be done, you will come out stronger, and she will see that. If she doesn't, well, do you think she'll like it better if you just get fired?

In my opinion, whatever you do, I don't think I would keep it from her. You've been down that road already, right? Fear is our biggest enemy. Sometimes you have to step out of the plane, and trust your parachute.

I made an agreement with my boss that if there was a time that I was feeling overwhelmed, I would just take a personal day and not come to work. I think I can plow through it and just try and lose myself in work an 'fake it til I make it'. I went in late today and feel better having posted my messages today and just knowing I have all of your support. Thank you it really helps just having this avenue for communication.
Although he isn't totally OK with low numbers, he said he'd accept them as long as the attitude doesn't bring others down. I can't say I blame him.

I am really trying to figure out how to engage my wife at all. I am thinking that my uphill battle is almost a 90 degree hill when I have no real interaction with her. Being that we are still living in the same house, sleeping in the same bed and all is supposed to be an advantage, to me it seems like a disadvantage. We get home from work around 6, the next 2 1/2 hours are spent preparing/eating dinner, finishing homework, getting kids ready for bed. Then invariably, my wife then proceeds to the bedroom and gets in bed and watches TV until she falls asleep. It is never a positive interaction when I try and start any conversation with her at this point since she is in shut down, brainless TV mode.
I don't see how she is really going to change her mind about wanting to stay together, when there is really no positive interaction between us and if I try and force it, it won't seem genuine and she will be put on the defensive. She is just not making any indications that she wants to interact with me unless out of necessity and it is scaring the crap out of me that every day, she drifts further and further away.

Originally Posted By: mj144

It is never a positive interaction when I try and start any conversation with her at this point since she is in shut down, brainless TV mode.
I don't see how she is really going to change her mind about wanting to stay together, when there is really no positive interaction between us and if I try and force it, it won't seem genuine and she will be put on the defensive. She is just not making any indications that she wants to interact with me unless out of necessity and it is scaring the crap out of me that every day, she drifts further and further away.

Have you pursued her for your entire marriage or has she pursued you?

MWD writes about 180's.
This is something that you should 180.
If you have been pursuing her, STOP.
Turn around and let her come to you.

Change YOUR behavior, test and monitor the results.

She seems to be asking for space.
You should give her what she wants.

Questions?

Not talking about pursuing. Simply talking about creating positive interactions. I can't even get her to engage in small talk in passing as we are getting ready for work. It is like 2 people existing with no personal interaction. I can't see how letting that go on is positive.

Originally Posted By: mj144

Not talking about pursuing. Simply talking about creating positive interactions.

So in the past who created the positive interactions in your marriage?
You or her?
Then what would happen after that?

When you all are interacting with the children are you trying to be upbeat (regardless of her talking to you or not)? Are you "acting as if" you are fine? I know how badly you want to see some sign of hope from her and some change in her, but my WAH was so difficult to engage in any sort of anything until I just started being happy when he was around. I stopped R talk. I stopped crying, begging, pleading. I just started being the person he fell in love with and married. Gradually I started doing nice things for him. I'd leave him his favorite candy for when he would be visiting his daughter. I try to have his favorite snacks or food at the house now when I know he will be visiting. I don't talk about these things with him--I just do them. It is just a way to be that caring, thoughtful person you were when you married. It helps. It may not seem like it and she may not say anything, but she will notice. You've got to take care of you, too. I know everyone says that and it is very hard (believe me), but it has to be done.
I haven't read much of the previous posts on this thread, so this is repeat, I apologize. But, good luck!! hang in there!!

You don't think it's pursuing. Bet she does.

Have you tried being more upbeat & positive in general?
I know for me, changing my attitude has made my H more open to just talking with me.
Act as if you are positive & eventually you will be.
I can understand how right now it feels like your whole world is crashing down around you, it's times like this we have to find the strength within ourselves to be the change we need to turn our lives around.
No one else will do it for us, we HAVE to do it for ourselves.

Since I did my 180, my H will talk to me about all kinds of things, of course none of it pertains to "us", but it's a HUGE change from the way he was before.
Before he would only speak to me in one word answers, as if it literally was too much for him to say anything more to me.
I see his communication with me as a baby step & right now that's enough since it IS a positive change from the way he was.

Well said, Phenix! I totally agree and am in a similar boat to you!

Actions not words should be your mantra.

Show her your love by performing an "Act of Service"
Do the dishes, laundry, clean the house without her asking.

Do any of her actions show you any love?

I don't know if this is allowed anymore but I will suggest that you read the book.

The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.

Their are lots of ways to express love without saying a word.

I have read it. I do try and do those things. It is almost as if she is annoyed by it. An example, I filled up her coffee cup for her and took it to her while she was getting out of the shower yesterday. She must not have seeen me do it and came into the kitchen looking for her mug and seemed annoyed that I did that. I'll ask her if she wants me to put away the ironing board after she finished ironing her clothes, she tells me no, then does it herself a few minutes later. There was some of her laundry finished in the dryer(she always re-folds her stuff that I fold, so I wasn't about to fold it for her), she was lying in bed. I asked her if I should get it and she said she would. I told myself screw it and did it anyway and brought it to her. It's almost as if she is forcing herself to have this negative attitude about me and wants to be miserable to me purposely. That's what worries me.

Trying...

I think that right now she sees all of those things as pursuing. I also see you doing some mindreading... "she seemed annoyed". You could well be right, but it doesn't help you.

I would move your focus off of her, and onto you. You are doing what your instinct is telling you, and it is probably wrong. Do the things you need to do to take care of you. Stop trying to take care of her.

I still can't let go of the fear of staying to myself too much will make her drift further from me.

Not to be hard on you... but how's that working out?

Not saying doing it differently will work. But what you are doing isn't working, right?

Fear is the enemy.

Hard to say. There is such the fine line to being too withdrawn on my part, isn't there?
What are you suggesting? When I don't know what is expected of me, how do I do the 'right' thing?
I still go back to thinking that she is too far distant to bring it back.

Be hard on me...I'm a big boy.

Originally Posted By: mj144

I have read it. I do try and do those things. It is almost as if she is annoyed by it. An example, I filled up her coffee cup for her and took it to her while she was getting out of the shower yesterday. She must not have seeen me do it and came into the kitchen looking for her mug and seemed annoyed that I did that. I'll ask her if she wants me to put away the ironing board after she finished ironing her clothes, she tells me no, then does it herself a few minutes later. There was some of her laundry finished in the dryer(she always re-folds her stuff that I fold, so I wasn't about to fold it for her), she was lying in bed. I asked her if I should get it and she said she would. I told myself screw it and did it anyway and brought it to her. It's almost as if she is forcing herself to have this negative attitude about me and wants to be miserable to me purposely. That's what worries me.

My sitch is the EXACT same. The biggest change I've made is that I now try to just do things that make life easier for her (cleaning, vaccuming, making kids lunches, do dishes, picking up kids toys, etc) without saying anything to her. That is a huge change, when I first started changing I was immediately looking for her validate what I was doing...to appreciate it and show that she did. I understand now that is not going happen until I can prove to her, that I have changed and I'm not simply doing this stuff for her. I realize it's important, and that if I dom't do certain things - then she will have to do them. In the past I was fine with this and I even avoided doing things because I knew she would do it. A big change I made is to start getting to bed earlier, so when I get home from work each day I have more energy to commit to the "chores" and to spend time with the kids. So far it is working great for me, and I'm not looking for her validation then I don't get frustrated.

I truly believe that if I just make these changes for ME, that in the end my W will appreciate it (she likely already does, but just doesn't believe I've changed) and eventually she'll realize that I have truly changed.

Even if she doesn't eventually come around, I will have learned some valuable life skills should I have to balance all of the day activities on my own.

I know you can do it, because only a few weeks ago I questioned whether I could do it. I really miss the physical contact though (not just sex) but the hand holding, cuddling, kissing...

Anyways, good luck!!

Read scared's post. Do things that need to be done, but don't do things "for" her, if you see the difference. Don't point out what you do, just do it. Even better if you do it when she isn't there, so she doesn't think you are looking for a reaction.

I'm not talking about being withdrawn on you part, but rather giving her space that she is clearly asking for. Think about how you feel when you just want to be left alone, and someone just keeps trying to engage you. She's like that right now, but probably on a bigger scale than we can imagine.

In simplest terms, if what you are doing seems to be annoying her, it might not be the best thing to do, right?

BLINDSIDE!!!!
I'm in the kitchen cleaning up after dinner with the kids just 10 feet away watching TV and she says to me we have to talk about our situation. This is the first she has approached me about it, so I know this isn't going to be good. She says, and I paraphrase, 'we have to do something because the way we are living is unhealthy'. She says we 'have to do something with the house, do you want to buy me out? Well, she knows damn well, that isn't possible. Then she says, 'or do you want me to buy you out?' I laugh. Her comment is 'what, you don't think I can?' Well, first of all, I don't think she has any idea of what 'buying me out' would entail. Before, when the house was mentioned, she'd talk about putting it on the market. She asked me again, do you want me to buy you out and I deflected her by saying, "I'm not talking about this now."
First of all the kids were just in the other room and second, I am ill prepared for this conversation.

How do I handle this? Do I:

1)Continue to avoid it for as long as I can, or

2)Do I throw it back at her by asking how she plans on doing so?, or

3)HELP????

With the market the way it is right now, I stand to lose my ass on this. Zillow value of my house is basically what we owe on the house. It is 2 1/2 years old and there is new construction going on all around us. The resale value right now sucks!

I really don't think she can afford the mortgage by herself, if she could qualify for a mortgage on her own, but I have a strange feeling that she would get help from her parents with whatever she would need from cash to give to me(if anything), and/or signing with her for the mortgage if necessary.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am I really here because there is hope for me to save my marriage, or am I just kidding myself into thinking that anybody left out there is just helpless and hopeless like I feel right now?

I am thinking at this point, why not just puke up everything that I am feeling to my wife in one last diatribe and tell her how I feel, tell her I'll move out and live in a cardboard box under a bridge somewhere if she'll just slow the **** down and give me a chance to show her what I am saying and doing will be for the better of the family in the long run. I know it didn't happen overnight where we are and it won't happen over night to fix things.

What do I have to lose?!?!?!?!?

"What do I have to lose?!?!?!?!?"

Your self respect. First of all. No woman wants to be with a weak man. If you start throwing yourself onto her, that's exactly how she's going to see you as. From what I've read so far, you've been panicking so much and letting your behavioral problems get the best of you. Metaphorically, you need someone to slap you to your senses.

Stop panicking and start thinking. It's rough and I understand you feel your world is pulled out from under you. We've all been there. Let those feelings out BUT not in front of your wife. Drive somewhere and just let it all out.

The living in a box thing is quite the drama queen thing to say. When you were first going out with your W, is this how you acted? Start rebuilding your self respect and your self esteem. Write out your thoughts and your goals. Start planning YOUR life rather that being reactive to her actions. You can do it. Just start with one step at a time.

I'm just waiting for this to happen in my sitch. I think if it did, I do my best to validate what she says "I understand how difficult the sitch is for you and I'm trying to give you space you need to think".

I am about to start counselling (without my W at this point), but I'm trying to get her to goto counselling as well, and then at some point I want to be able to try marriage counselling together.

Maybe you could try the same?

I think also trying to explain to her reasonably and rationaly that the market is horrible now, and that if you were to sell it may take a long time and in the end you'll be lucky to break even. I would avoid discussing either of you buying out the house from the other because I think whoever is the "seller" will appear to be "cashing out" of the sitch, which I don't imagine you want.

Just be strong, vent on here. I do it all the time on my thread. When I'm alone I curse to myself, and I'm Mr. Sunshine when I around the kids and the W. I'm hopeing that in time my W will start to appreciate it and start to SHOW ME (not tell me) that she approves of the changes.

In the meantime, ask yourself "What does happiness mean to me?" I'm sure like me you'll struggle to answer yourself, and I think it's important that you figure out what that answer should be.

Good luck.

Counseling is the last place she will go. She says she wants to 'move on'. Meaning she still wants a D in her mind. Just 4 weeks ago, her response to an email I sent her about a nice weekend we had together, stating to her that I 'really enjoyed it, it felt really nice and I hoped she felt the same' she stated, "i remain very neutral and am still unsure about our relationship"

I took that as a fairly positive reaction. Not blowing me off, acknowledging my email. Since then, about a week after that, she started acting terribly cold.

My anxiety is at about an 11 right now. I feel like I'm having a heart attack.

I don't know what I'm going to do if she tries to bring up the house thing again.

Originally Posted By: mj144

My anxiety is at about an 11 right now. I feel like I'm having a heart attack.

I don't know what I'm going to do if she tries to bring up the house thing again.

Just relax, deep breath through the nose and blow out through your mouth. I hear you completely and I've felt the same way at times. Heck I'm feeling that way right now do to conflicting information I got from my W saying she was working tonight (I'll be out of town with kids) and her work just called to ask her if she can work tonight!!??

I've realized I'm probably over-reacting, as a result I'm not going to call her out on it.

Even if your feeling weak, make her think your feeling strong. Don't try to TELL her, show her. Make some plans (even if you don't really have any) and get out of the house for a bit. Make her come to you.

We can do this, I believe based on the sheer number of guys going through this, that there is a specific make up for woman that makes me believe that she techniques (so to speak) can and do work. Be positive, belief in yourself and that you can do it. Your mind is very powerful, use it to your advantage. Mind over body.

You can do it!!

Again, calm down and start getting your self-esteem back. You're going to do more harm than good when you are worrying about things that may or may not happen. What have you been doing to build yourself back up?

Up until about 1 1/2 weeks ago, I was exercizing every day with great results. I've been more intermittent lately and have to get back to it hardcore again. I am going to a party tonight that she decided she wouldn't go to 'considering what's going on with us'. I am also going out of town with my girls next week for a long weekend to visit my brother's family.
She is eventually going to try and re-engage on the house talk, so I don't think I am worrying about something that won't happen. It's just when, not if.

The last 2x we went through this, we were back together by now. The last time was 3 1/2 yrs ago. The kids were so much younger and the added stress on me of the effect it had on them at that time wasn't there. They are my biggest worry right now. Bringing them into it. For now, with us still in the same house, they don't see what is going on(although I suspect my 7 yr old is picking up on it a little bit)

Any advice on how to address my house issue when my wife brings it back up to me?

^

Originally Posted By: mj144

Any advice on how to address my house issue when my wife brings it back up to me?

I'm not expert but I think you need explain to her that it isn't feasible for either of you to carrying the house yourself. Also, similar to my sitch we have significant debt that would likely eat up any equity we have in the house. If you were to attempt to sell it may take a long time to sell it and you may get well below what it's worth.

I think you try to get her to goto MC or IC before you move forward on house plans. I think you stick to the fact that your not going to move out, similar to I have and focus on the positive. Be friendly or friend like with her, but focus on making the changes in your life - heck you could even try and arrange your schedules so they are opposite and you don't see her as much. That's what I've been trying to do.

Sorry I hope this helps as I know your looking for answers.

Do NOT tell her what it is feasible for her to do. Do NOT try to fix her or tell her what she should do. Do NOT force therapy. Do NOT try to make her see the light. Do NOT try to make her "get it."

Do GIVE HER SPACE. Quit pursuing, quit doing little things for her, respect her wishes when she asks you not to. Get out of her life. Focus on you APART from her.

If she asks again, simply say, "I understand you need space and if you want to move out we can look at how we might make that work financially for a few months. But I'm not prepared to talk about how we might divide property and so on if we dissolve the M."

Property division is strictly a business matter. Trying to be nice to save your M will not work. Get a L, understand what a decent deal is. If you and W can agree to a decent deal, then do so. Maintaining financial strings is NOT HELPFUL. It is not good for anyone.

And always, give W MORE SPACE than she is asking for. If you can't help poking, picking, and prodding to try to get something from her, then GO OUT and get away from her. LEAVE HER BE.

Go get some exercise and get a massage. Leave W alone. Until you let go and let her be, all you are doing is pushing her away.

What do you mean when you say, "Maintaining financial strings is NOT HELPFUL. It is not good for anyone."?

I mean that if you separate it is good to be as financially separate as possible. Separate budgets, separate bills, separate money, no shared credit cards, no shared vehicles... Once you agree on how to separate finances, her financial stuff should be none of your business as a practical matter. You should STAY OUT of each other's financial business as much as possible. When I was separated, I was reluctant to break such ties, but all they do is cause problems and prevent the WAS from feeling the space that they want. I promise you, until your W has the space she wants, she will NOT turn-around and look back. It is only in the context of real freedom and options that a WAS can even begin to tell if reconciliation is something they might want rather than something they feel pressured into.

But, keep in mind, while you are still married, you will probably be responsible for debt she accrues and if you divorce, overall debt will probably be considered, no matter its source. So, it is in your best interest to consult with a L about how to protect your financial interests in the event of a separation. There is no need to tell W about it. You need to understand your options and the risks.

We carry no debt. We own our cars outright, although they are both titled to her. We have 1 joint credit card which is paid off every month, but she has her own that I don't share with her.

My coach tells me that it is a good thing that we still live together and that she isn't showing the signs of a 'typical' WAW. Which in and of itself, may mean that she is too far gone, but in DB sense, I will not give up.

Sounds like you are in good shape financially. That's great.

So, she is either going to ask about the house because she wants to move out or because she wants a D.

If she is asking because she wants to move out, figure out a way for that to work short-term, figure a budget, divide up the money, and stay out of her finances.

If she is asking in order to figure out a property settlement for D, say you aren't ready to talk about it. Consult a L, figure out what a decent settlement would be with the L. If W approves of it, make the agreement. W will only get less generous over time. If she doesn't, don't negotiate. It is a business matter best handled by your L. Just tell her you aren't in a place to handle that matter and you'll be letting someone else do it for you.

In the meantime, give her more space than she wants and she just might not feel pushed to figure out how to get out of the house right now.

Yes and no. We don't have debt, but we aren't very liquid either. I suspect that my wife would have asked me to move out when she first thought about D, but we can't afford 2 households.
The reason she is asking about the house is because I feel she is leaning heavily towards D and not reconciling.
It sounds to me like if that is the case, then you are suggesting I pack it in. I am not prepared to do that. I won't give up.

The last 2x we went through this, she did the same thing and then realized she needed to slow down a bit. I believe that I need to get her to slow down, even though she says she wants to move on. Believe none of what they say, right?

I am trying to remain in a positive mindset that if she just does slow down, then my DB'ing will start to have an effect. I have a ton on my plate right now with piecing my work sitch back into place, Db'ing and the DBT Therapy I am in. I don't feel like I have progressed the way I would have liked to, but I see great progress with my relationship with my kids. I have to believe that it will have an effect on my wife.

I can't afford a lawyer and if it does come down to a D, we can address all issues through a mediator, not by padding some lawyers pockets.

Actually, I said "If she is asking in order to figure out a property settlement for D, say you aren't ready to talk about it. "

You might also say, "If it is time to discuss a property settlement for a D, we need to do it with mediator or Ls as it is a purely business matter and we need their expertise. So, let me know which way you want to go." If she wants a mediator, let her find one and set up the appointment. If she wants a L, let her find her own and draft an offer.

Whatever happens, to be informed you should consult a L. You can probably get an initial consultation for free. And, if you have little debt, then charge it if you can't. You really cannot afford to work on a settlement agreement without an understanding of what a decent deal is for you. Whether or not you successfully use a mediator (EXTREMELY unlikely), making a settlement agreement is not going to be pretty. Both of you will feel screwed. So, you need an objective independent view of what a decent agreement for you would be. You simply need this knowledge in hand for your own sake.

Then, if push comes to shove and you have to make a settlement agreement, you'll have an idea of what it should look like. And, such agreements are best made with third party help, either Ls or a mediator.

Keeping the two of you financially entangled is not going to save your marriage.

P.S. I think I'll check out of this thread. I really never usually post to newcomers because I'm not able to be of much use to newbies. My point is really only this -- forcing her to retain practical ties with you isn't going to save your marriage and is much more likely to get in the way of her having the space she needs. Holding onto the practical ties tightly is just another form of pursuit that WASs find so suffocating.

Also, consider when she decided to slow down before -- did she CHOOSE to slow down or did you force the slow down? My guess is that you gave her enough space to choose it herself, which is a good thing.

Well, she emailed me wanting to talk tonight after the kids go to bed. I am not anticipating the conversation to be about what I want for Christmas. I guess this will be a good time for me to try and use my Mindfulness techniques that I am learning in DBT.

I don't see myself as holding onto anything at this point. It just is. But it is difficult giving someone space while living in the same house, sleeping in the same bed, using the same bathroom, etc. It just wasn't feasible financially for me to move out. We are actually pretty strapped right now. There was an error made by our accountant on our tax return and we had to use our savings to pay off the error.

I guess I will just have to see where the conversation goes this evening. Since she is initiating it, I can at least open up to her about where I am at this point with my therapy and feel her out a bit as far as what she 'sees' in changes with me and the kids. I can also ask her to slow down a bit and suggest a different plan of action to give her additional space if a possibility.

While this woman has been talking AT me for some time now and shows hardly any positive emotion to me, I manage to love her more now than ever.

"Since she is initiating it, I can at least open up to her about where I am at this point with my therapy and feel her out a bit as far as what she 'sees' in changes with me and the kids. I can also ask her to slow down a bit and suggest a different plan of action to give her additional space if a possibility."

Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!

She does not want to hear about your therapy. She does not want to reassure you about your progress. She does not want your input on how fast or slow she should proceed with things. BACK OFF. QUIT PURSUING. QUIT GRASPING.

LISTEN TO HER. VALIDATE HER. "Yes, I understand you feel _____. That must be hard." "Yes, I see you want more space." "That's an interesting proposal, get back to me with the details if that's how you choose to go."

Do nothing else. If she pushes to make business arrangements, tell her that you aren't prepared to discuss that with her (you aren't, you need to see a L, but don't tell her that), but that she is welcome to put her thoughts together in an email. Email will allow you to step back and process things with less emotion.

I suggest you read the LRT in DB and implement it.

MWD
Last Resort Technique strategies
Stop the chase
Do not initiate any contact (unless child-oriented)
Be friendly but brief if contacting
Be unpredictable
Be upbeat
Stop saying, �I love you�
Quit convincing spouse the marriage has been good or can get better
No relationship talk
No requests for reassurance
No resistance to negative comments
Get a life

There is more in the DB book, and also more on MWD blog here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

Oldtimer,
Thank you.

OT is right. NO Relationship talks.

I am certain that is her intent. Do I just agree with everything she says and leave it at that?

You don't agree with everything she says. That's different from validating her. You agree that she feels that way. It doesn't mean you agree with what she is thinking.

Just talk to her as you would a good friend when you do have to interact with her. Don't think you can make her think a certain way. Read OT's post again.

I might have missed it, but have you read DR?

That's what I meant. I misspoke(semantics).

I have read DR. I guess tonight will be a BIGTIME test for me to implement some 180s and use mindfulness techniques. I am nervous about getting sucked in and not being able to just do what I need to do by validating and backing off. Not my strongest skill.

"I am nervous about getting sucked in"

It's your choice to NOT get sucked in. When you say something like that, it's as if you can't control what happens to you. You can.

"and not being able to just do what I need to do by validating and backing off. Not my strongest skill."

Then MAKE IT your strongest skill.

The reason I'm in this mess and the reason I'm trying to get out of it by taking Dialectic Behavior Therapy...work in progress.

This is a major step!

Blew it. Couldn't stop even though I would sit there with long pauses telling myself to shut the f up, I just couldn't help saying it can work, it is worth it, the work I am doing, I've come a long way, but I still have a long way to go...she has heard it all before, she is done, she is checked out, she hasn't been happy in a long time. The way we are living is unhealthy.

It started well for about 2 seconds until, all she could suggest was that I buy her out or she buy me out. When I asked what she meant by that, I could see she was starting to get frustrated. As I continued to explain to her that I needed a plan, she kept saying you buy me out or I buy you out. After puking on her a little bit, not literally(I've done way worse), I ended the conversation by telling her I'll wait to see what she has to offer.

I can't let this end. I won't give up. But why? I looked at her tonight and she was there emotionless. I love this woman and can't think of anything but getting her back. But why? Is it just because she doesn't want me?

Where is the hope? Where is the chance? How do you know when to just plain give up? How is it that I can fail so miserably?

I read my own post and I can almost know exactly what is going to be said in response. Why am I having such a hard time? Part of me is telling me that it is DOA and I have been just kidding myself this whole time.

Okay, here's the 2x4. We've ALL been there. Heck in fact you had it easy. My W actually told me that she was afraid to be in the same room with me.

You're back to square one. Get your nuts back from her and start acting like a man. Your W sees you as a "girlfriend". Someone to pal around with, but not sleep with. To put it bluntly.

What GAL have you done to build yourself up? You've only been at this for a couple of months, so I can tell you that it's all very new to you still.

Stop being available. You have the perfect opportunity to start living the life YOU want to live and not a life based on her mood swings. Because trust me, her moods will get worse. I can bet money on that.

What are you going to do to build yourself back up?

...and where did your marriage end up may I ask?

I am considering going to my in-laws to have a pow-wow with them. Tell me the pros and cons of doing this.

My W and I are separated. Although when you see the two of us together, you would think there was nothing wrong. It's taken 2 years for her to get through her own issues. She has never been as open as your W has been.

The one important thing I learned was that she didn't start respecting me until I started respecting myself and calling her out on some of the BS she was stating.

My sitch got so bad that the OM came to my working place to get me fired. How's that for information.

I never thought I would last as long as I have. I have had the opportunity and have dated. But I learned that was a moral boundary I wasn't going to cross. It's up to you to decide how long you want to be in this.

I can tell you this much though. If you continue to act weak around her, she will see you as such and will have no sense of attraction to you whatsoever.

I appreciate your feedback and don't take my questioning of your situation as calling you out. I was just curious. I know that you don't have to take your time trying to give me advice and I really do appreciate it, regardless of how much I may or may not pay heed to it.

How do you mean about my wife being open? To me she is closed tight like Fort Knox.

My issues stem from me recreating my childhood, me as my mother and she as my father. Difference is, that my father was wayyyyy too patient and held off on divorcing her until I left for college. I was the youngest. My mother had severe emotional issues(bi-polar and personality disorder) that caused me to never feel very secure as a member of my family or any other group for that matter.

I live in fear and insecurity every day. I came to the realization that I feel like an outsider in my own family. I have felt that way all of my life and since I live as part of my W's family, they all live here, my parents are both passed and I have no real relationship with my brothers, one I haven't spoken to in over 10 years and my other brother, who I happen to be taking my kids to visit tomorrow, I haven't seen in about 6. Even though her family is great, I always feel like an outsider(my own insecurities).

I watch my wife smother my dog, my dog for Christ's sake, with hugs & kisses and think to myself, if I got half the affection she gives to him, we wouldn't have had half our problems.

I suppose in some strange way, I created her lack of desire to be affectionate to me. I am convinced that it is all due to my insecurities that I mentioned above and it created anxiety and tension that came out of me in anger outbursts at my W and kids and over-reaction to minor issues with my wife. Then, she being non-confrontational wouldn't bite and I would invariably drill her until she was fed up. I also, again due to being insecure, rely on her to make decisions about everything and from where I would get my happiness from. Hence her saying to me, "damned if I do, damned if I don't".

Since I have been DB'ing, I see my relationship with my kids being much better and I don't see them crying as much since I don't get in their faces so much and they aren't always asking for mommy like they used to as recent as a handful of months ago.

I truly do believe that I have made some definite improvement. I guess the next step is to go through the process of dissolving the marriage as my wife wants to proceed and hope that through the way, she softens her stance.

I still don't believe that this is what has become of things...

Don't worry. I'm not afraid to share my story as some other vets had. I made my choices.

Fact is for you, the past is past. You can say that the past is why you act a certain way, why your W acts a certain way, etc. But let's face it, it's the past. This is the present. How you were before doesn't dictate how you will be.

The ones who can't deal with the past are the ones who run away from their present situations and saying that they made "wrong" decisions in the past. Well they made them and so what's done is done. The healthy thing to do is own up to your decisions and decide how to make it better. Not chuck everything out the window and start from scratch.

My W as well as countless other WASs on here and other threads often say that it "was a mistake to get married". Last time I checked, no one put a gun to their heads at the alter. They made a choice and they should own up to it.

Well, I haven't posted in a few days. I was out of town with my kids. We had a great time visiting my brother and his family back in my home town. I got to take my kids to visit my dads grave and it was very cathartic experience. I haven't been back home for over 6 years and haven't been to visit my dad in almost 10. It was good to talk to him and get out a good cry, which I haven't been able to do since this whole mess started. While I am not very close with my brother and it was basically the first time my kids got to meet him and his family, since they are basically all the family I have other than my wife's family, it was nice to be with them. It felt safe.

Now I'm back to the reality of what my home life is like. My wife picked us up from the airport and the evening was pretty uneventful. She asked me some questions about my brother's family, so she at least pretended like she cared. The one thing I am convinced of is that my relationship with my kids is tons better than what it was. I have to pay close attention over the next few days, because they were both almost perfect while we were away, but when we got home, my older D starting whining and pushing the limits a bit. It will be interesting to see if it was just because she was tired, or if it is something to be concerned about.

Now back to DB'ing. Just before I left, my wife was pushing the issue of moving on(settling the house situation specifically). I also know she spent Sat. night at her parents, which I am sure was spent coming up with some kind of game plan, which I requested from her, other than, who buys who out of the house.

Her father and I have not always been on the greatest terms, he tends to jump my s**t a bit when he doesn't like the way things are, but for the most part, he is a very cool FIL. My wife didn't clue him in on things for the longest time as she was afraid of him going off the handle. I happen to know that her mother finally got him up to speed and he offered his assistance with finances, etc. Hence the overnight visit this past weekend.

I am considering asking him to meet over lunch or coffee, or may even just show up at the house one evening to have a pow wow with either just him or with him and the MIL. I am pretty close with both of them and they are more to me than just In-laws since both my parents are passed. I know that they are obviously my W's turf, but I feel like I might be able to get them on my side just a bit by making them understand what I am beginning to understand better about myself and what has brought me and my W to this point. I know they only will want what is best for their daughter and support her in whatever decision she makes, but I also know that I can appeal to them and just maybe they can put a slow down on my wife pushing things forward.

I hope that I can get an opinion or two before I decide to call him in the morning. I will wait and see if I do.

I think I am better prepared to take this thing head on than I was before I went out of town. I know the odds are stacked pretty high against me. My wife is pretty dead set on ending this thing, but tomorrow starts the next day of the rest of my life...I can do this!

^

Anyone have any thoughts about me reaching out to my in-laws as a resource? Am I grasping?

Personally I don't see the point in talking to the in-laws...because I believe 1 of 2 things happens.

1) They somewhat side with you, and they also push your W further away by taking "your side" and in turn they pursue on your behalf!

2) They are pleasant to you and listen, but essentially just want their daughter to be happy - blood always comes first.

What do you believe will happen and what is the "benefit" of speaking to them? Don't you have a good friend that you can just blow off steam with - that will just be someone that will listen?

I have a couple really good friends that have been playing this role for past month or so. It helps to have someone who will just listen and cares about you.

Someone may have better advice, but I think you should avoid talking to your in-laws about the sitch. IMO

I am hoping that Forrest Gump will jump into my post and lend some of his sage wisdom to my sitch, all the way around.

Yes you are grasping. Do NOT contact in-laws. Quit trying to control the situation. Quit trying to control W. Quit trying to slow her down, shake her up, or make her see the light. IT WILL NOT WORK. STOP all of this heavy pursuit now. All you are doing is chasing her away. GIVE HER SPACE. QUIT MESSING WITH HER LIFE AND HER CHOICES. STOP BEING CONTROLLING.

Focus ONLY on yourself. Did you read DR??????? Implement LTR immediately.

There is no 'heavy pursuit'. Hell, I barely have any communication with my wife. That is what is killing me. With the utter lack of any interaction with my wife, it just feels counterproductive. I don't know how to give her more space than I do now while living in the same house.

I try and read what everyone says, but in all reality, everything I read has everyone in similar situations that I am in. Struggling with what to do.

I haven't seen any positive results from anything I do. Am I best suited waiting for her to turn up the heat on dissolving the marriage? Am I to look forward to that so I can show her how peaceful I can make it by acting like I accept her trying to divorce me? Is that how I can be effective in DB'ing by validating her feelings while pushing forward with the divorce? I am teetering on the feeling of should I give up and throw my hands up in surrender?

While it is the last thing I want to do, I just don't understand how I am going to build up any goodwill and bring her back to me. I don't talk about the relationship. My interactions with my kids is better. They don't whine for mommy and cling to her like they used to as recent as 2-3 months ago.

What does focus on myself really mean? I have a hard time with that concept. I thought that I am focusing on myself by trying to save the thing that means the most to me, MY FAMILY.

Yes, there is heavy pursuit. You couldn't help yourself in your conversation with her, now you are thinking of knocking on her parents' door.

Back off.

W is not going to want to soothe or support you right now. What can you do to take care of yourself and have a good day today?

Still need to understand how I am to use DB techniques? We are still living at home going through the motions of daily life. The only thing I am really able to do is act positive, not crowd her and don't have R talk. How is that supposed to have any true effect?

Because it takes the pressure off.

I feel like I am reading my own thread. mj144, I feel exactly the same. I do not understand how all this works either. But I need to tell you what happened to me.
For the first 2 months I thought I was DBing and giving her space. Living everyday life seemed fine. So after 2 months I tried to talk. That is when I actually heard the words "I want a divorce." Since then it has been a month. I have done nothing except be the man I want to be. No anger,becoming closer to the kids. It is amazing how fast the kids get closer to you. I am sure you have experienced this. If only our wifes were that easy.
Now, we are again in everyday life mode. It stinks because you know there is a problem,but you just have to force yourself that at this moment anything else is going to push her away.
What I am saying is, maybe we are better of if we can just let things stand still. I would rather keep everything where it is right now, even though it is hard, than have her make a move with the way she is thinking at this moment.
I truly believe there are no thoughts of reconciliation in my wifes mind at this moment. Would you want to force your wife into making decisions if she has already made them. I have heard it over and over, Time is our best friend.
I am certainly not an expert, and have no idea what my results will be, but I have pushed her oh so slightly, and I regret it. It was like I wasted the first 2 months of DBing and had to start over in a deeper hole.
"Patience" I don't have it, and it sounds like you don't either. We need to find it fast, and get more of it than our wifes have. We need time to show them the men we can be, and they need time to see it.

What pressure? She has decided she wants a divorce. I am trying to raise doubt in her mind about that decision. How am I to do that?

Go back and look at DB. Have you written out your goals as to what you would like to happen? Too many times in the sitches here, people forget to do that. Write down the goals as to what you want to happen. Small and measurable goals and not general ones like "she will not file for D".

Then jot down steps that you can take to attain those goals. It's going to take alot of patience on your part. Is it fair that you are doing all the work? Probably not. But YOU are the on who wants to save the M now. Think of it that way. A small investment for a larger return.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

Go back and look at DB. Have you written out your goals as to what you would like to happen? Too many times in the sitches here, people forget to do that. Write down the goals as to what you want to happen. Small and measurable goals and not general ones like "she will not file for D".

Then jot down steps that you can take to attain those goals. It's going to take alot of patience on your part. Is it fair that you are doing all the work? Probably not. But YOU are the on who wants to save the M now. Think of it that way. A small investment for a larger return.

Beautiful advice.

Mj, there are ways to DB even with your W living with you...

*Be a little more unavailable.

*After work text or call your W and let her know you have errands to do (then go out to a bar or movie). Alone if you have to.

*When my wife comes home, I'm sure not to be sitting in front of the TV vegging out. I have the fire going, the stereo on and I'm cooking myself a great meal. Sometimes even dancing to the music.

*Sing in the shower.

*Be playing and laughing with the kids when she walks in the door.

*Go out with friends.

These were all all "fake it till you mae it" techniques that I used. And then they just became part of my life. I enjoyed them and I no longer "fake it" and she can tell I'm genuine.

She MAY start to wonder what she will be missing out on.
Good luck!

I really wish there was a recipe for all of this. I wish I could just call or text her that I wasn't coming home like that. I am responsible for picking up the kids from school(after care around 5:30-6) Evenings are like clockwork. We get home, all eat dinner together, bath every other night(I usually bathe, she does hair) we each read to one child, then she goes to the bedroom to watch TV. I walk the dog and I either watch TV in the living room, or most nights, go to the basement to work out. I make sure that I try to say goodnight to her every night before she falls asleep(good or bad idea?) I do need to spend more time out of the house, but after the kids are put to bed, it's around 8:30 and that's my work out time. This Friday, she is going out with friends and staying at her parents house and I am going out with work folks and staying home. I think I will establish at least 1 night where I don't come home after work after the New Year.
Besides, singing in the shower will probably scare her away faster.

I am presenting myself in a positive manner with the kids. Like I said a few times and I can't be more proud of how much closer I feel to them and they appear to me. I used to hate and she would too, how they clung to her. All I want is to have 2 daddy's little girls and I feel like I am starting to get them!

Maybe I'm not doing so bad after all?!?!?!?

Mj, drop off your kids and tell your wife that you have errands to do. Then head to the movies. She can read to DD's or bath them. Can't she?

Get a membership at a gym instead of working out at home. W may assume you want to "get out and get a life" instead of being home all the time.

It sounds as if right now you have no life other then home life. W will not feel excitement nor will she see any drastic changes.

You need to peak her interest...

I agree that my life is at home. However, that is where my kids are. They are my life.

Can a person do anything right?

W usually makes kids lunch, so me trying to be helpful decides I'll do it this AM. I get a laser glare from her when she sees that I am going to make it. First the criticism that I am using the worng bread. So I get the right bread. Make the PB&J sandwiches and bag up some grapes. Pissy tone in her reaction, D5 doesn't get PB&J, she gets turkey. Then I see her taking the grapes out of the bag and drying them off with another pissy attitude comment, they'll never eat all of those and you can't put wet grapes in a bag, they get all mushy.
How can I win? She gives me the same BS criticism when I try and do anything to be helpful around the house. OK, catch 22. I don't do anything and the feeling is just that, I don't do anything. When I try, it's not right. Now I don't expect to be given any appreciation, but on the other hand, I shouldn't be given the sense that I am completely incompetent either. It seems to have the opposite effect that I would expect.

I also know that she is going to be seeking out a mediator. Not sure what this all means. Knowing this, what should I do in preparation of the meeting? Is this a good thing that will give me a chance to do some additional DB'ing?

LOL - I can remember those situations even before I got into these problems. I've seen them again now when I tried to start the laundry one night when my W was at work she told me "I did it all wrong", so much for helping her out and empowering myself!

I've also had similar reactions with the kids lunches, and it just took some time. Now I make the kids lunches most nights, and she no longer says anything negative.

I'm trying to build up the energy and will to wash the floors, as I know it's something she hates to do - but she'll want to do it before Christmas. I'm worried that if I do it she'll not notice and just do it again herself, or worse she'll again complain that I didn't do it right.

The easy stuff is just to tiddy up, wipe the counters off, wash dishes and put them away, vaccum, clean the toilets, etc. that is pretty easy but I know she'll notice - because if I didn't do it she would HAVE to do it.

In my case I'm not sure if matters. My W is so business like in her approach, she's already moved on without planning anything. We just live together and take care of the kids.

I really hope it can change, because even though I am changing I still want my W to be my W.

She is testing you. If you are a loser that does not help, it justifies her actions. She also may feel that you are taking HER job and getting in HER space.

I would just say to her, "W, I'm just trying to help. Please let me know how you want it done and I would be happy to do it that way."

If she says not to do it and gets mad, validate, respect and stop. Let her do it.

DO NOT take it personal (and I know how hard it is not to).

Just stop what you're doing and tell her you are going for a ride with the girls to get ice cream or just leave the house yourself and let her know you have a few errands to do. No anger or frustration. And when you come home, have an ice cream in your hands. You need to appear happy! What was it like before you met her? You were not clingy! You had self-respect! You would wake up the next day happy! So do it! Even if you have to fake it for now.

I understand that your kids are your life (mine are too). But it seems you have lost YOUR identity.

A life outside your life = Attractive
No life outside the home = Unattractive

You're not finding any reasons to leave her side. You are smoothering her without even knowing it. In all honesty, I NEVER want to leave my W side right now. But that's do to our own insecurity. So I make myself leave. And I give her space. It is the only way they can process the possible mistake they may make. And when you appear happy their doubt can deepen.

GAL means get your own life. Yes your kids are part of that (a big part) but they can't be the only part.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

OK, now that felt good!

I know my wife is getting ready to set an appointment with a mediator. I suppose that this road will be better than lawyers battling. However, I really don't know what to do in preparation for a meeting. Will the mediator try and discuss resolving vs. dissolving?
I know she is anxious to get the ball rolling. She is terribly cold and bitter and shows absolutely nothing in her mood or the way she acts to me that she has softened in her feelings at all. In fact, it just seems that she continues to get more and more distant. In fact, she acts like a downright bitch. There are times where I would just like to go off on her and tell her a few things. It's kind of like when an umpire throws you out of a game for a minor incident and you feel like you just want to explode and get your money's worth for getting ejected.
I think I have come to a couple realizations over the last few days, one about my work sitch and one about GAL. Let's just see if I can keep up the right mind frame.
I keep reading other's posts and the veteran's responses, like sandi2, Mr. Bond, Coach, etc. I hear everything that is being said, I just have a hard time listening to it all. I am still determined as ever to turn this ship around, but I just don't feel very confident in it all. I did it before, 2x, why does it seem like she is so far gone this time?
The main thought that I struggle with so much is that she despises being with me so much that she is willing to forego half of her daughters' lives. Am I that awful to be around? It just eats at me every minute of every day!

This is where I struggle. I have never been one to set goals. I have lived my life so much from the hip, I really do struggle with knowing where to start.

"The main thought that I struggle with so much is that she despises being with me so much that she is willing to forego half of her daughters' lives."

She doesn't "despise" you. She just doesn't want to be married to you. Big difference. Take a look at some of the REALLY bad sitches around here. You'd think the devil himself was living in the WASs body. Yours isn't one of those cases. You are emoting the hurt feelings you are going through. Well the more you concentrate or stay stuck in the resentment phase, the more it gets amplified.

Think of it from the WASs position. They are "stuck" in the mindset that things will just be miserable. They don't even think that it might. As long as they stay in the negative zone, they will only think negative.

"This is where I struggle. I have never been one to set goals. I have lived my life so much from the hip, I really do struggle with knowing where to start."

Then just start. Doesn't matter where, just do something. If you weren't one to set goals before, then that's something you should definitely change. Write things down and come up with "small" but attainable goals.

Ok, she doesn't want to be married to me. But the concept of her being soooo unwilling to stick around to make it work vs. only having her kids 1/2 time just seems so irrational to me.

So the kids are off school and they were just sent to their grandparents for the next 3 days. Just me and the W in the house. It will be interesting.

So for 3 days you have a chance to make an impact. What are you going to do? You can either look down about everything and stay stuck or you can start turning things to the positive and fun.

Not sure how to go about that. She doesn't look in my direction. She won't talk to me. I asked her if I could make dinner one night, she commented to not worry about her. I don't even know if she'll come home from work at her typical time just to avoid being around me. I'm so tense that I don't even know how to start small talk around her. It's been silence so far this AM.

Still feeling very anxious. Kids are gone, so perhaps this could be an opportunity to spread some goodwill. Guess again. Hardly any words spoken yesterday morning getting ready for work. tried to engage in small talk, but got responses like facial expressions, non-words and one words answers.

Move on to last night, small talk was a little better got 2-3 word answers from her, but i get home late, at 6:30 since I had a class I go to for behavior therapy and she isn't home. Figured she'd be home to feed the dog, but no. She finally walks in at 7:30 and says nothing(not concerned about an A, I know she stays at work late. She is very busy and really has no desire to be at home with me). I was upstairs on the computer and she asks me a couple mundane questions about putting chicken back in the freezer and if I walked the dog. I take the dog for a walk per usual(she walks in the AM). When I get back from the walk, I go to the basement to work out. She actually got an opportunity to watch TV in the living room while finishing up with some present wrapping. She typically goes to bed and watches TV. I make it a point as I usually do, to go upstairs after she has gotten in bed and wish her goodnight. I then go back to exercizing and when I go to bed, she is sleeping as always.

This morning, more of the same. Now I don't know how in the hell this is supposed to bring us closer together. Am I giving her space? Well, the best I can in the same house. Am I positive? Yes. Do I engage in R talk? No. It sure seems that she continues on as if I don't exist or matter. It just feel like she drifts futher and further away.

This weekend, I actually for the first time in my life went to a movie by myself. I was actually going to go out with a co-worker and he was flaking on me, so I finally had to leave the house at 10pm since I had already told my wife I was going out.

There is so much confusion on my part, although my gut continues to tell me to fight on, my brain is starting to tell me to give up, or vice versa, not sure which, but you get the point.

Dude it feels the exact same for me! Identical. The onyl time she talks to me is when it relates to the kids or on occasion now she'll rant about how hard her day was or some sitch that happened at work. I do my best just listen and acknowledge what she's saying.

I cleaned the house the other day while she was out, including bathrooms (toilets, sinks, counters, etc.). I didn't say anything about and just went on with business - I'm not looking for any sort of "thank you" but I also know that she still doesn't trust that I've changed, so I need to work as hard as I can to stick with and no expect any sort of "reward".

I think you need to try and determine if you want to fight on. Is it worth it too you, are you worth it? In my case I sill want to fight on, but I worry that won't last forever and since she's now broken my heart twice I really don't know how this will end.

For now - keep fighting. From the looks of things we are still newbs...there are people on here that have been doing this dance for years!!

It was only a few short weeks ago and I was feeling exactly like you when it comes to being in the home together. If I was upstairs she was downstairs. The minute she walked down the stairs to the computer or to watch t.v. I got angry inside. She never did this before.

I did not know how to give her space and be in the same home. Well, I finally realized that this is what was going on. Now I just let her do her thing and try not to even make small talk, even though I still do, and just leave her alone.

In just a couple weeks time I have noticed a change. This going into the basement was everynight like clockwork. Since I have left her alone, I have noticed the computer has not been touched in 2 or 3 days. She has also stayed upstairs about every other day now. Not hanging out with me or anything, but at least passing by and actually initiating small talk sometimes.

Try acting like she isn't even in the home anymore, just for a couple weeks. See if you notice anything. I know you already feel like you have been doing this, so did I, but when I looked close at what I was doing, I wasn't doing something right.

I know this is hard, but try to have no expectations for each day. If you are like me, you want to see results. Until I admitted to myself there wasn't going to be any, the anxious feeling you are talking about, finally subsided.

Here is how I let go of my expectations. I figured that any thing I try to do for my R at this time, is probably just going to make things worse. I would rather keep things the way that they are for awhile than make it worse. Time is your best friend.

I am new to this, so I am not sure of anything, but I just wanted to say how I am finding some results.

mj144 and scaredincanada, my sitch is very similar to yours also. According to your register dates, it looks like I have been at it a couple months more.

This does not make me a veteran by any means, but I thought I was doing everything right for the first 2 months just like you. I actually made it worse.

I was persuing and did not even know it. I bet you are too. mj144, you are trying to engage in small talk. That is all I was doing with my wife. It is persuing to them. When I stopped trying to talk, she started talking.

I don't feel like time is my best friend. I feel like the time from Sept until now was the time I had. It is just a matter of when, not if she is going to start pushing the issue. I know she is looking at setting up a mediation meeting for probably after the New Year at the latest, if not next week since she is off work all week. I think I have at least made her comfortable enough with me not making things difficult(for now at least) that she hasn't talked to a lawyer. Not sure on that though.

Much of my anxiety over this whole mess is that when she does start the process, she is a lot better off financially than I am. I am in sales and my income has been steadily declining the last 2 years and now she makes more money than me. She thinks she is in position to keep the house on her own and also has her parents here to help her out if needed. If there is a 'buy out', they would be capable and willing to give her the money to buy me out. However, with the housing market the way it is, there isn't much equity in the house. The only hope I have is if I can convince her to give me half of the difference between what we owe on it and what we built it for 2 1/2 years ago. She has always controlled our finances, too.

She is just so headstrong that when she decides that she wants something or wants to do something, she is determined. That's why it has been so difficult to break though since she has flat out told me 'she's done'.

My only hope is that the mediation process takes some time and I can build up goodwill in 'playing nice' through the process. I just don't see how this will ultimately work. It seems like every day I get closer to realizing that it's over, even though I want to stay strong and fight. Just not sure what that means at this point.

It will be interesting at Christmas. we have dinner at her parents' for Christmas Eve. I am anticipating that my stocking won't be hung and I won't get a single present. I am still going to go for my kids sake even though my wife won't 'invite' me. She says if I want to go for the kids. Sure makes someone feel welcome. Tis' the season?!?!?

I feel the same way. She makes more than me and has told me she does not need me for anything financial. She is right, if anything I need her.

I feel she is going to do something after christmas. Such as D papers. I don't know. It [censored]. Sandi2 posted on my thread and told me that I have enough to worry about today, I need to quit worrying about what she is going to do. I think she is right, what can we do about it anyway. I believe whatever we try is just going to make them push farther away.

As for my other posts, I don't want to, and should not tell anyone what to do. I was just posting what I think has helped my sitch. I just saw the way I felt a couple weeks ago in your posts.