H and I got married right out of college. We had some problems 5 years ago. After 9 months of counseling we seemed to be in a good place. About 6 months ago H started telling me he was unhappy. I thought it was job-related - he's been actively looking for a new one. He became less interested in doing things with me or the kids, pleading tiredness from work. Our interactions were getting less pleasant - both of us were frustrated and were overly critical of the other.
Oct 9 he announced he wanted a divorce and was moving out. Although he still loves me, he doesn't see any hope that our M would get better. He refused to go to counseling again or entertain the idea of a trial separation. He wants to come to a mutal agreement on our assets and see a lawyer together to file for divorce. I've seen a lawyer to find out my rights; he hasn't. I've seen no signs at all that he's having an affair, and this is a really small town - it would be almost impossible to hide.
After 10 days of alternately pursuing and packing up his stuff, I decided to work on me. I'm keeping busy and attempting to enjoy myself. I've mostly stopped pursuing, and I've made efforts to keep the kitchen clutter-free (a giant pet peeve of his that I finally understand). I made a list for myself of mistakes I made in our relationship and mailed him a copy two weeks ago, asking if we could take a few weeks to refocus and then start dating.
He didn't mention the letter for a week. Then, on Halloween we spent 4 hours at a family event and chatted like the best friends I thought we were. On the way home, he said he appreciated that I wasn't blaming everything on him, but he wanted to move forward with the divorce (although we could meet for lunch every week or so to discuss the kids). That night he came over 45 minutes early?!? to get kids ready for trick-or-treating and stayed until kids went to bed. Then in the space of 30 minutes he went from "Let's not file yet and wait and see what happens" to "I don't think we can break our negative patterns" to "Let's move forward with divorce; I only said we wouldn't so I wouldn't hurt you more."
Saw each other 4 days in a row after that, including a 5-hour stretch on Tue when we took S1 to doctor, and again chatted like best friends. Thur he came over to get some of his stuff and mentioned that I'd taken down the wedding pictures. He asked me not to throw them away as "no matter what happens, that was a really special time."
I've asked a few times for him to give me the passwords to the online household bill accounts so that I can change them to my new bank account. He keeps telling me that he'll take care of the bills out of the joint account and I shouldn't worry. His love language is acts of service, so I wasn't sure if he was trying to take care of me because he cared, or because he felt guilty, or.... He's also tried to do other things for me (offered to put together a toolbox for me when I said I'd go buy tools, then investigated receivers for the tv after I told him the one we had was too complicated for me).
I've noticed that he mirrors my moods. When I'm cheerful and actively engage him, he stays longer and chats more freely. If I'm more subdued (but still nice and polite) and don't make follow-up comments to what he says, then he leaves in a hurry. One the few occasions when we talk on the phone, there's often a long pause and then I'm always the one who says goodbye.
This week I've only seen him twice; both times I was subdued (once, really tired after an early-morning flight, and once upset because dog was going to visit him for first time) and he left quickly. Yesterday he emailed me a list of the bills he had paid this month and an initial attempt at dividing the assets. (This is one week after the "no matter what happens", which I thought meant he was unsure about what was going to happen; no "engaged" interactions since then.) I emailed back that I preferred to discuss the assets in person. He'll be working the night shift for the first time next week, so that will be hard to do.
I had been beginning to think that he was having second thoughts; with the email on the assets that's been blown away. Does he think we'll continue to be best friends after divorce? Is he just falling into the "good" pattern of interaction?
Do I keep engaging him in conversation to let him see that we do have good interactions, or do I back off and let him see what life will be like if we divorce?
I really don't think our problems will be that hard to overcome, especially now that we both understand what they are. It kills me that he's willing to walk away from all the good we have had without making that last effort - he told me I had my chance and didn't recognize it.
_________________________
Me 32, H 32
T - 13
M - 10
H moved out 10/9/2010
D4, S1
Hi Cajun,
Welcome to divorcebusting.com. I imagine his conversations put you on a rollercoaster. But you are very good at solution detecting:
I've noticed that he mirrors my moods. When I'm cheerful and actively engage him, he stays longer and chats more freely. If I'm more subdued (but still nice and polite) and don't make follow-up comments to what he says, then he leaves in a hurry. One the few occasions when we talk on the phone, there's often a long pause and then I'm always the one who says goodbye.
So you can see that you have a great effect on the situation. This is what DBing is all about. You CAN turn this around.
One thing I'd like you to try....be a little less available for a conversation in the next few days, without giving a reason. Let him wonder. See if he gets curious.
We are here to help you use the tools in Divorce Remedy and Michele's other works (eg, Keeping Love Alive). Have you read Divorce Remedy?
I've read Divorce Remedy twice. I'm trying to do 180s - keeping the kitchen clean, I've started fixing up the flower beds (that drove him nuts but now half of them look pretty, which makes me happy
), no complaining, no raising my voice when I'm angry/frustrated at the kids (or him), and regaining my silly side. I've also been working on GAL, and I've been really busy on weekends. He knows about some of the activities I've done and has asked questions beforehand but not afterwards. For the first few weeks after I read the book I also acted "as if" he was happy to see me, which was why I was trying to be cheerful and engaging.
I texted him Fri afternoon to see if he was available for a quick chat, and I got a more verbose response than I was expecting - "Not at work right now. Went to visit some friends. We'll talk later." Saturday I texted to say D4 wanted to talk to him, but I did not want to wake him up if he was transitioning to night shift and could he please call her. I let her answer the phone. I heard her say goodbye to him, and then it took her 20-30 seconds to find me to hang up the phone. He was still on the line! I asked if he needed anything, and when he said no I said goodbye. He called "wait" and then explained his sleep schedule for the next week. He had a really cheerful tone. I repeated what we had discussed via email earlier in the week, that he could call if he was able to spend time with the kids one night. Again he paused, and I hung up. He did not bring up the asset email, and that's three times we've talked since he sent it.
I was a lot less available for conversation last week and I got an email asking me to divide up the assets.... (although looking back I realize that the last time he asked me to divide up the assets was three weeks ago, right after he paid bills, and I had asked him last Sunday to let me know when he had paid the bills.) Last Sunday he sounded really happy to see me when he dropped off the kids, and then when I gave just a lukewarm hello the tension levels rose and he seemed to be in a bad mood. Last week was the least we had talked/seen each other since he moved out.
One of the mistakes I made (which I've acknowledged to him), was that I didn't ask questions of him when I should have because I either assumed I knew the answer or was afraid of what the answer might be. There are questions I'd love to ask him now - "What is your timeline for filing for divorce? For moving the rest of your stuff out of the house? How do you see us interacting as a divorced couple? What the heck did you mean by 'no matter what happens'?" but I'm not sure if I should.
I also packed up the framed wedding pictures, the wedding album, and our cake topper (which he deliberately left here when he took the china cabinet) for him. I want to give him those with a letter about why I don't want them anymore - basically that although I made mistakes that contributed to his unhappiness, it was ultimately his choice to stop loving me and to end our marriage; as a result of that the promise I made to him on our wedding day will be broken; the day, and my memories of it, will lose their special place in my life. I honestly don't want them, and after his reaction when he noticed they were no longer hanging, well...
Any advice would be good. I'm really unsure about being less available for conversation, as after being subdued/less available our interactions seem to get worse. When he gave the "no matter what happens" little speech we'd seen each other 5 days in a row for a total of about 11-12 hours and had had some really good conversations.
You're doing a good job! I wouldn't ask him about the timelines for the divorce. You seem to understand the "as if' attitude more quickly than most....definitely keep that up.
I wouldn't give him all of the wedding stuff yet...along with the letter. It could backfire on you. Just put them away.
So if you were together right now...what kind of conversation would you have when he called?
I'm really unsure about being less available for conversation, as after being subdued/less available our interactions seem to get worse. When he gave the "no matter what happens" little speech we'd seen each other 5 days in a row for a total of about 11-12 hours and had had some really good conversations.
This is excellent solution-detecting! So build on this.
regaining my silly side
I like this. What can you do to bring some humor into your interactions...create some fun?
Keep up the positive attitudes whenever around him or talking to him. Make sure you are attractive whenever around him(hair done, nice clothes, perfume). DO NOT bring up the relationship to him, if he brings it up, then talk positively, justify his feelings, even if you don't agree, you don't have to agree, but don't put down his feelings. These are his feelings after all, right or wrong.
Next, make yourself a better person to be around. In the end, you two could end up divorced, but YOU WILL be a better person for all the work you do. Regardless of the end outcome, be a better person for you and your kids, not him.
I've been a lot more silly lately with my kids (kids and I are having much more fun together now), and sometimes he's been around for that. I don't feel comfortable teasing him about right now, and I'm not sure how else to be silly around him.
I'll keep thinking about the wedding pictures - given his schedule I doubt I'll see much of him until the weekend so I that gives me some time to work through whether it's a good idea at this time. On the flip side, I'm planning to bake muffins with D4 this evening, and I'm wondering whether to leave some at his front door in the morning - it will be his first-ever night shift tonight, and he'd find them when he came home from work. I don't know whether he would consider that pursuing or a nice gesture (his love language is acts of service - doing something nice for somone else).
Keep up the positive attitudes whenever around him or talking to him. Make sure you are attractive whenever around him(hair done, nice clothes, perfume). DO NOT bring up the relationship to him, if he brings it up, then talk positively, justify his feelings, even if you don't agree, you don't have to agree, but don't put down his feelings. These are his feelings after all, right or wrong.
Next, make yourself a better person to be around. In the end, you two could end up divorced, but YOU WILL be a better person for all the work you do. Regardless of the end outcome, be a better person for you and your kids, not him.
I've got an IC and am working on some of the things about me that I know I need to change. After I read DR I stopped telling him that I thought this separation was stupid (yes, that was not the brightest thing I ever did), and that's when I sent him the letter acknowleding our role in our problems and agreeing that a separation (but not a divorce) could be a good tool. I think H was a lot happier/calmer after that. I made a mistake on Halloween and disputed his opinion about whether we could change our negative patterns (which was a negative pattern in itseslf) and I'm not going to do that anymore.
I submitted a change of direct deposit location for my paycheck, but I'm probably too late for this billing cycle (we get paid monthly). I also discovered that one of the bills is in both our names, so I'm changing where it gets drafted today. I'm not planning to volunteer the information, so he probably won't figure it out for three or four weeks. I'll just write him a check after that.
Whatever it is that's pulling him away from you and his son, will eventually lose its power over him as long as he sees the girl he married. We women tend to change a lot after getting M and having children. Everyone does. It takes work and a constant reminder to be the one he fell in love with.
When you say you've been silly, I assume you are speaking about your sense of humor? That is an excellent tool! Who doesn't enjoy that atmosphere? Men hate drama! So whenever he comes over, or talks to you on the phone.....try to keep upbeat in your mental attitude. You will be challenged, but focus on your goal.
Have you set any personal goals? I suggest one of them be to get a good excersize workout b/c that does wonders for us when we are going through stressful times.
Living in a small town can have advantages. For example, your H will hear from others about seeing you out and how good you looked and how happy you seem to be.
Do you work outside of the home?
Thanks for weighing in, Sandy. We actually work for the same large company, and although I don't usually see H, I often see people he works with. I'm in good shape (back to my weight when we were married), but I do need the exercise for stress relief. I was walking with the kids every night until the time change last weekend, and now that it's too dark I guess I need to start exercising after they go to bed.
My personal goals are more about attitude. I come from a family of yellers, and I realized that I was doing too much of that myself. So I'm working on controlling how I react to being angry, and so far I've made great strides (at least according to D). I want to be more fully engaged with my kids, despite the additional housework/chores that come from being the only adult in the house. I've also reached out to friends I haven't seen in a long time. I'm still thinking about what else I need/want to do.
As for the silly - in college I ate way too much sugar and didn't get enough sleep, and I found the funny in everything. I was always giggly and always had a great time. Although too much sugar and not enough sleep now make me grumpy, I'm working on finding the joy in everyday things and in taking the little moments to tickle a baby or dance wildly around the room with a sock on my head (D's idea, but it was actually fun).
My personal goals are more about attitude. I come from a family of yellers, and I realized that I was doing too much of that myself. So I'm working on controlling how I react to being angry
I can identify with that. However, my H admires women who show poise and grace when confronted with adverse situations. So, I was digging myself into a hole whenever I blew up. I got a lot farther when I acted more lady-like.
My personal goals are more about attitude. I come from a family of yellers, and I realized that I was doing too much of that myself. So I'm working on controlling how I react to being angry, and so far I've made great strides
this is me as well. I 'used' to yell about everything because that's the way I was taught, I've realized now that it damaged some of the communication with my husband and I'm working really hard on that as well.. Good for you for recognizing this and trying to control it.. great strides indeed
Is there OW involved? It sounds like he may be having an A.
You are doing a good job, Cajun.
Is there OW involved? It sounds like he may be having an A.
You are doing a good job, Cajun.
I don't believe he is having an affair. The last time he was unhappy and wanted to leave I am 100% positive that there was no one else, so he does have a pattern of this. He's living in an apartment not far from my house. This is a small town - I would have been told by now if he'd been seen out and about with another woman. We work for the same company, and I am friends with people who work in his group - they haven't seen anything suspicious.
D4 and I made muffins last night and she asked if we could bring some to daddy. So we dropped some off at his apartment this morning before he got home from work with a note that D had made them and that I hoped his transition to night shift went okay. He likes little thoughtful gifts, but I hope it doesn't come across as pursuing - I really don't care if he acknowledges them or not. This morning I'm more angry at him - I like angry better than depressed, and it gives me more of a chance to work on the not reacting badly part of my personal growth.
Set your goals and have a plan. Conduct your actions based on your plan. I know we women base most everything on our feelings, but we can't always rely upon them. You will be faced with many different emotions before this is over. Don't let your emotions dictate your life. Do what you know is right.
Enjoy that little girl! I know you must be thankful to have her in your life.
One thing I'd like you to try....be a little less available for a conversation in the next few days, without giving a reason. Let him wonder. See if he gets curious.
This....
Done be quick to pick up the phone when H calls. When you do finally answer a hour or two later, tell him You were busy doing "X". Then see what he wants. Do stay on the phone long, and try to end the conversation and end the call first.
Done be quick to pick up the phone when H calls. When you do finally answer a hour or two later, tell him You were busy doing "X". Then see what he wants. Do stay on the phone long, and try to end the conversation and end the call first.
We made a deal when H moved out that we would always answer the phone when the other called, in case it was something that involved the children. I have ended every one of our phone conversations first - usually he pauses for a long time and I just say goodbye. In two of the last three phone calls I said goodbye, he said wait and either told me a story about the kids or told me his schedule (which could have been done in email) and then paused and I said goodbye again and hung up.
Excellent work, Cajun--good job!
Hummm, that sounds encouraging, don't you think? We know how to entice and not cling, don't we? Keep him wanting to talk to you longer by sounding positive, upbeat,on the run to GAL,.....
H called tonight to ask if he could come see the kids. I told him they had 30 minutes before bedtime and he said if I didn't mind he'd bathe them and put them to bed. I was wearing a new sexy dress and boots - he didn't seem to notice. We chatted a little about work and he brought up college football. When the kids were in bed he asked if we could talk and then started discussing the division of assets. I'm proud of myself - at times I had tears running down my face, but I kept my voice calm and did not get angry or overly upset.
I told him that I fully own 50% of our problems (he said he owned his 50% too) but that I feel the divorce is his choice and I take no responsibility for that decision. He told me that it is a consequence of our problems, so I share responsibility for that. I disagreed and shared with him that I had almost left him several times before (something he did not know) but always stayed to work on our marriage because I believed in us, and that I had expected him to do the same. He looked like an aggravated little boy at that.
I told him that since I felt our problems were fixable, I was unwilling to go to a lawyer together and say that I had given up on our relationship. He was free to file on his own, but in that case I would get my own lawyer, and, since I feel the divorce is unnecessary, I gave him a choice: he could pay for my lawyer, or I would pay for the lawyer and he would agree to attend - and participate in - 5 sessions of marriage counseling. I thought for sure he'd immediately say he'd pay my lawyer. Instead, he told me that he thought it unlikely that I'd convince anyone that he should pay the lawyer. Then he asked what I expected to get out of counseling. I told him that I wanted a) the self-respect of knowing that I did everything I could to save this relationship, b) the ability to look into our children's eyes and tell THEM I'd done everything I could, c) the opportunity to further recognize my role in our problems so that I could address my own issues, and d) the miniscule possibility that he might delay signing the divorce papers. He asked if I would agree to limit the scope of the sessions to only rehashing what we had each done wrong and I said no, that while the first one or two sessions would need to identify our mistakes, I was unwilling to say what the latter ones should look like. He agreed to go, provided I acknowledge that he had zero desire to work on our marriage and that the counseling was not going to change his mind (and I did not break down at this!). I validated that there are some big issues in our marriage, that I don't want to return to the one we had either, and that he may be right that either he or I is unable to make the changes necessary to fix those. I also said that I personally would not believe any "talk" from him of change; that I'd have to see it, and that he probably felt the same way about me. (his response - that's true, so what's the point of counseling?)
He told me that he feels no anger or resentment toward me anymore, that it is just apathy (not a good sign!) - however, he does get angry every time I suggest that he fully owns the decision to end our marriage, and he is angry sometimes when he's not clear on what I'm trying to say (feels like one of our patterns sometimes). Is that normal?
He thinks part of my ideas of the asset division is not "fair". I said that I understand why he might think that, and tried to explain my thoughts. He got angry at one point, and I validated that I understood why he was upset but that I did not want to have this discussion if both of us could not be calm. I finally asked him to leave so that we could discuss the issue later.
I did ask him if he was having any second thoughts two weeks (when we chatted like best friends, for 30 min he agreed we'd just be separated before changing his mind, and then his "no matter what happens" speech about the wedding pictures) and he said absolutely not with a really cold look on his face.
I'm not in nearly as many pieces as I thought I would be. I think I surprised him with my stance on the lawyer, and he certainly surprised me by agreeing to attend counseling. I'm not sure what to think of that - is he that cheap? Now that he knows I won't go to the lawyer with him, I don't know whether to expect him to file for divorce right away or wait until the asset division is worked out. Once he files, the divorce will go through in about 60 days ...
I'm confused now on whether to continue to try to engage him or not. He doesn't end a phone call first, he talks to me like a friend most of the time, but still, here I am talking about assets???
One of the things H and I talked about last night was that he thinks we are both too stubborn and that leads to a lot of arguments. I think a lot of this was me being insecure and unable to let anything go because I'd think "if he doesn't do it the way I want when I feel strongly about something then he doesn't love me." And that led to a downward spiral. This is something I recognize now, and I'll work with my IC to change that, but how can I show him that 180? The only thing we're really at odds about right now is pieces of the divorce settlement, and I'm not going to give up my rights just to make him happy. We've resolved every disagreement about furniture and "stuff" very easily.
How do I keep acting happy around him when one part of me just wants to inflict as much bodily harm on him as I can? I'm trying to deal with changing bills into my name today, and it's flat-out impossible to do at a lot of companies. So now I get to deal with a two-day television outage because HE decided to move out and the satellite contract is in his name. I get to answer the questions from the kids, to explain why they don't get to see Daddy every day. I have to explain to our friends/acquaintances that we aren't together anymore when they ask about him (he hasn't even told most of the people he works with). I don't get to spend half of the time with the kids because HE wasn't willing to work on our marriage anymore. I'm sooo angry....
H sent a few emails today about initial discussions over financial settlement and child custody things we had talked about Tuesday. I responded that I preferred to discuss in person. I thought it interesting that he does not want to include a morality clause (this is a deal-breaker for me) because he never wants to get married again and does not want to say that he can't have a serious relationship for the next 17 years. That's your choice, H, and your problem. It was a house rule that unmarried couples couldn't sleep in same bed here after our kids were born, and I'm not changing that rule because he is suddenly afraid of commitment.
Also said he's only agreeing to go to the first counseling session, and then he'll see.
An hour after the emails H called D4. I let her answer the phone, heard her say goodbye, she called for me to hang it up, and lo and behold he was still on the phone. I asked if he needed anything, he said no, then gave a follow-up comment on something he had said in one of the emails, then asked what time he is supposed to be at D's dance recital on Saturday. I made a joke about one thing then said goodbye. Why is he not hanging up after he talks to D? Next time I think I'm not going to check to see if he is on the phone and just hang it up.
You need an outlet for your anger. It may serve you well....keep your eye on the goal.
What else can you do when you are fired up?
I agree an outlet for your anger is a necessary thing...
You were doing great when things seemed to be going positivly, but as soon as things changed a bit, you started to get angry...
While it is natural to feel that emotion, and it is easy to get discouraged in this process...
Don't let your anger ruin the good work and positive steps you have made...
I agree an outlet for your anger is a necessary thing...
You were doing great when things seemed to be going positivly, but as soon as things changed a bit, you started to get angry...
While it is natural to feel that emotion, and it is easy to get discouraged in this process...
Don't let your anger ruin the good work and positive steps you have made...
I don't have access to his email or phone anymore, but he used to hand me his phone regularly (up to the day before he moved out) while he was driving (so I could play games) and I'd browse his text history. There was nothing off about any of them.
I write long letters to H about why he's being stupid and how angry and hurt I am, and then I shred them. My shredder is getting quite a workout! I don't think he has a clue how angry I am, which makes me proud, because one of my personal goals is to work on how I react to situations when I am angry. It's okay to feel angry, it is okay to object to calmly object to decisions that I disagree with, but it is not okay to yell at him, call him names, or give away his stuff. So far I'm doing pretty well in person.
I think I'm angry now because I finally decided (again) to take back a little control of my life and start handling things like organizing house repairs, bills, etc. I'm angry that I have to take the effort, and live with the ensuing disruption, because of his choice.
I'm also angry because I feel like he IS cake-eating - he talks to me more than is neccessary while at the same time emailing me the next steps he wants to take for divorce. He agrees to go to one session of marriage counseling (Dec 8), but says he won't go back if we start talking about ways that could fix our problems - he just wants to help me identify the issues so I have closure.
I worry that the reason I'm engaging him is because I'm not ready to say goodbye to the friendly conversation part of our relationship, which was always good. And I suspect that may be why he responds - because that's the one part of the R that he still enjoyed. I'm not prepared to have that with him when we are no longer married.
I think I may take the original advice and pull back more - not check to see if he's on the phone after he talks to D, not allow him to help put the kids to bed at my house (if you don't want to live here, then you aren't part of the routines here), and D can make muffins for him at his house and I will eat the ones she makes here
]I write long letters to H about why he's being stupid and how angry and hurt I am, and then I shred them. My shredder is getting quite a workout!
This is a very good idea, however it also keeps the thoughts cycling around in your head. How about other outlets, ones that are more about trying to change the anger into something constructive...
Running, cleaning (I clean like a banshee when I am angry), household projects, kickboxing. Something where you can see concrete results that will make you happy in the end...
I think I'm angry now because I finally decided (again) to take back a little control of my life and start handling things like organizing house repairs, bills, etc. I'm angry that I have to take the effort, and live with the ensuing disruption, because of his choice.
While this is normal...
It is also the whole "this is so unfair" type of thinking that allows us to become the victim if we are not careful.
This is an opportunity for you, to know that this is all stuff that you can handle on your own. Realizing that we don't NEED another person in our life, especially when we have always had someone, can be liberating, and has the potential to change the way you view relationships.
Maintaining a friendly R with you S will benefit the children, shows him that you are still the "safe" place, and may benefit you in the future.
There is a fine line between being too available and letting them know you are still there.
I am confident that you can find that line.
While this is normal...
It is also the whole "this is so unfair" type of thinking that allows us to become the victim if we are not careful.
This is an opportunity for you, to know that this is all stuff that you can handle on your own. Realizing that we don't NEED another person in our life, especially when we have always had someone, can be liberating, and has the potential to change the way you view relationships.
Maintaining a friendly R with you S will benefit the children, shows him that you are still the "safe" place, and may benefit you in the future.
There is a fine line between being too available and letting them know you are still there.
I am confident that you can find that line.
Thanks, cat, I think I neeeded to hear that. I am proud of all the things I am accomplishing on my own, it's just hard not to be angry at the same time.
I spent a lot of time with my MIL this weekend. She says H never says anything bad about me, and always uses a friendly tone when he does talk about me now. She told me to be patient and stall as much as I can, because H isn't happy on his own right now and she thinks he might change his mind. (I think she's probably engaging in wishful thinking, but I do that too.)
Saw H yesterday at D's dance recital. I was having a lot of fun with S, dancing to the music, while H looked tired and wasn't really enjoying himself. He did call me over to look at pictures he had taken of the kids (photography is his hobby), and I praised the ones I liked. I mentioned he looked tired and he volunteered more about what was going on there. He did not want to take any more boxes with him last night because he was too tired; this morning I got a spreadsheet from him with an analysis of what we've both spent since he moved out. I'm not going to discuss that with him this week - it's time to enjoy the holiday and he can be patient.
I ran into friends at the recital, and one offered to come with me to zumba classes after Thanksgiving. I think both the social setting and the exercise will be good for me (and yes, my house is about spotless - I clean when I'm upset too).
The last 12 hours have been fun. I found out that my H might be in the early stages of an EA with a woman from work. She had told her fiance that my H was meeting some of her emotional needs that he wasn't. Her fiance moved out about the same time my H did, but he's gone home now and they are in MC and he thinks their R is improving. He's using a lot of the DB principles without having read the book.
I called her at work and asked her point-blank if she's having an affair with my H. She denied any form of inappropriate closeness on either of their parts and seemd shocked that I would question that. I told her that if I thought that way, her fiance likely did too - she did not tell me they had talked about this, but said she would talk to him about it later.
She told me more about her conversations with H, which matched up with what he had always told me (they discussed our problems from 4 years ago and how that related to her situation now). She thinks he still loves me and she encouraged me to drag him to MC. Her analysis of what SHE thinks is wrong with him matches mine dead-on - that he's unhappy in general, has no idea how to make himself happy, and thinks that starting over with new job & no wife is going to magically get him that way. She also said he's conflicted on whether he's doing the right thing and is miserable. I have no idea if he told her any of this or if she's making deductions like I am.
After I hung up with her she went to talk to H and apparently said they couldn't be as close friends any more. He was livid when he called me this morning and accused me of trying to destroy all of his friendships. I agreed not to be friendly with the people he stayed with when he moved out, as they are primarily his friends.
There was lots of spew about friends intermixed with comments like "it's too late to look at where our R went wrong" and "you shouldn't have tried so hard to drive me away this summer". I validated a little, apologized that he had felt uncomfortable at the discussion but that I needed to know answers for my own peace of mind. (H response - you always do things for your peace of mind without worrying about blowing up everyone else's lives.) He told me to be careful or he could make this a lot more difficult - I responded that I could increase the difficulty as well.
It's becoming more and more obvious that despite his initial comments that we share responsibility for the breakdown of our marriage, he's blaming pretty much everything on me, and that despite saying he's not angry with me anymore, there's some deepset anger under there.
I've sent emails to the friends he thought I was poisoning to apologize if I said anything inappropriate and that I did not mean to stand in the way of their friendship. I am planning to leave H alone until next week, when he should get to see the kids again, and then act As If he's happy to see me and be happy and energetic. I'm going to enjoy the holiday with my kids.
One issue I have is with 180s. One of the things that really bothers him, which came out again today, is that he feels that I often do what I think is right for me without weighing the effects on everyone else. (He's pretty hot that we argued about a motorcycle in the spring - I thought it wasn't safe, he thought I didn't want him to be happy, I gave in after a few months and he bought it anyway.) He thinks me calling his friend is the same type of thing, and that some of what I've asked for in our initial D talks is also me not thinking abotu what he wants. I understand why he thinks that way, but in these situations I don't know that I CAN act differently. He doesn't notice when I do quietly acquiese to what he wants even though I disagree, he only registers the instances where I do take a stand. I don't know if I can fix this.
Cajun,
Sorry for the discovery of the possible EA.
Now that you know, and have spoken to her, as well as your H, please keep the info to yourself.
Sharing it with friends and family, will just color their view of the situation and make potential reconciliation more difficult.
Is there any validity to him accusing you of only thinking of yourself?
Is it something that you feel you want to change for you or for your M, or not at all?
Very little, is unchangable if we want to change it.
I am blond and Polish. A deadly combination. I sometimes do really dumb things like grab Scrubby Bubbles instead of hairspray. And realize it when it is too late.
I am also very intelligent. However, I have to slow myself down, to change what is something that is essentially unchangable about myself.
If you want to change something, you can. It won't happen overnight, sometimes it might take a very long time, but it is possible. Just make sure that it is really something that you feel needs changing if you are going to do it.
Looking inside, is hard, but it is what helps us all grow on this journey.
Thanks cat, I've told my mother and sister because I needed someone to talk to last night, but I'm not planning to tell anyone else.
I think that it is often hard for me to see his perspective at first when I feel strongly about something. In the last few years I've been insecure with him, and that has made me less willing to see his side and to instead think "if he loved me, he'd agree my feelings were more important." I think he felt the same way about me. When one of us finally gave in on whatever it was, we'd feel even less secure, and that made the cycle repeat. This led to some major stubbornness and resentment on both our parts, and I think is his biggest complaint of our marriage.
When we were both able to take a step back and see the other person's perspective, we often BOTH changed our minds and were able to reach a compromise more easily. Our decision process for having baby 2 brought us a LOT closer - after we bumped heads for a few months over will we/won't we, we took a timeout, tried to truly understand the other, and amazingly we each gravitated to the other person's position. It took a lot of discussion and negotiating, but we reached what was OUR decision, and not his or mine.
I am trying very hard to see things from his perspective right now and have tried to really analyze what he tells me about our problems and about what he wants now. I'm trying not to speak as quickly so that I have time to think about what he says; or if I do speak quickly and later can see his POV then I try to apologize and explain what I understood of what he said later.
However, as he continues to move toward divorce I will stand up for what I think is best for our children. There are only a few things that I feel are hard-and-fast lines in the sand for me; the rest I am willing to negotiate on to make sure the settlement is fair for both of us. I'm trying to take these discussions slowly, so that I have time to ask questions, find his POV, and think about it before I push for anything.
I hope to get more tips from my IC when she gets back from her honeymoon. Any suggestions from a DB point of view?
In the last few years I've been insecure with him, and that has made me less willing to see his side and to instead think "if he loved me, he'd agree my feelings were more important."
This is a thought that I understand very well.
Truth, just because someone loves you, doesn't mean that they are always going to do things that you think are right and they aren't always gonna do things the way that you want them to. That does NOT mean that they don't love you.
This is something that I still struggle with once in a while.
Then I have to remind myself to look at it differently. Instead of seeing what, to me, glaringly screams "you fool, he doesn't really love you, or he would just do ABC"...
That can then lead you down a road of monsters in your head...
I have to turn it around and see all of the things that are done that show me love. The things that are present daily and are constant reminders of what his love for me looks like.
And then it is much easier to say to myself "shut up monsters, he is a human being too"
While you are not in a place that it might be easy to see the love right now, you can find the loving things he did in the past and that might also help to dispell some of your anger and frustration.
I am trying very hard to see things from his perspective right now and have tried to really analyze what he tells me about our problems and about what he wants now. I'm trying not to speak as quickly so that I have time to think about what he says; or if I do speak quickly and later can see his POV then I try to apologize and explain what I understood of what he said later.
Maybe take a little more time, and really do your best to not speak quickly so that you don't have to apologize down the road.
That could help to avoid more conflict.
Additionally, you are two different people. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.
H called tonight and apologized for attributing motives to my actions - very surprising, he never apologizes for anything. I told him why I suspected OW. He said that I wasn't his friend for a long time, and she was. I told him that was his choice not to confide in me, and that confiding in someone else was inappropriate and contributed to the breakdown in our marriage.
I told him that I wasn't sure if I would ever want him back, and he said that the type of husband I wanted did not fit with who he was. I asked for details and he said he would have to think about it to make a concise answer.
I said that I wasn't sure if I wanted to go to MC anymore, and that if I went it would only be for closure (H: we are never getting back together, so that is the only reason to go). He said he would go if I would agree to conditions, the first one being no unnecessary requests, like the pesky morality clause (no overnight love interests with the kids around) that he disagrees with. We discussed that for quite a while, and he agreed I could likely get the judge to put that in the agreement, but that he would then play hardball with everything else. I told him that was his choice - not the way I wanted to play it, but I would be happy to let our lawyers run the discussions. He also told me that this could make him hate me, and that would make the next 20 years very difficult. I repeated that his emotions were his choice. I choose not to hate him for his actions, and if he makes the opposite choice that is for him to live with. I also said I would not be held to emotional blackmail - give in now only to have him threaten to hate me next week over something else. I repeated a lot that these were his choices - to get a divorce, to potentially live with another woman without marriage, to be mean in the divorce proceedings, whether to hate me - but that it was my choice to provide stability to the children.
I finally told him this was unproductive and we would not discuss any more tonight. He is coming over Sunday to pack the rest of his stuff. I never did find out what the "other" conditions were for him to go to MC. I'm not desperate enough to go that I will just agree to what he wants.
In his view, the morality clause is me trying to control his life for the next 17 years. In my view, this is me trying to instill in my kids the morals that we had agreed to teach them, whether he chose to live by them or not. I'd be interested in other opinions - am I being unreasonable in insisting on this clause?
I called H back tonight to ask that he warn me before I get served with papers, and he said he filed today. I should have the papers next week.
At least I know now why he wasn't willing to work on our marriage in the six months before he moved out, no matter how hard I tried. He didn't need that emotional connection with me anymore.
Had a long R talk with H today. He was pretty upset - almost crying through most of it. We've finally isolated the core of our issues, I think. He never got over my ultimatum 6 years ago that we have children or divorce. He feels like he is not enough for me. I asked him what it would take for him to be secure in my love, and at first he said there was no way for that to happen. Then he finally said he didn't think I would agree to what he would need to feel that. I pointed out that it isn't right for him to decide what I am willing to do. He said he'd try to write down a list of things that would help him get over that (I've already got a list of things I need from him to feel secure with him). Even IF he finished the list, and IF I think I'm able to do all of the things on that list, the choice of whether I get the opportunity lies with him, and right now I think he is just too afraid and weary of being hurt to agree. I figure if we both agreed to give this a real shot and leave the bitterness behind we have a 50-50 chance of making a good relationship, but I think there's a less than 5% chance for him to agree to trying.
It makes me sad that we've had 6 years of miscommunication, and that neither of us could tell the other one fully loved the other, and that now we've finally both realized what the problems are, he can't let go of his hurt and bitterness to move forward with me.
I'm not sure how to apply the DB principles here. The R talks actually seem to be helping, when we are both in the right frame of mind to have them, as at least we've now drilled down to THE issue.
Hi Cajun,
Talks do seem to help for you to improve the feeling of your situation.
You seem to like numbers/statistics, correct me if I've misunderstood (50/50 chance, 5% chance). Let that go, those numbers aren't real. What's real is your relationship, it's a living thing. You nurture it or you starve it. It's ever changing...not once and done. All relationships are. Change is the only constant. The 'one' thing....is the one that that is articulated today.
So change your behavior to change his behavior. Be flexible. You obviously still have love in your relationship. Let it breathe.
I have to say I agree about the numbers. They will make the situation look dreary.
You are possibly getting something from him, that many here don't get.
See if he makes the list.
See if it is something you can live with.
And if you are both willing to try, take it slowly and with the idea that you both are going to need to be patient with each other.
Lots of positives mixed in with the negatives.
DB techniques...
IF you get the chance, ACT AS IF it will work. Believe in the process.
Communicate. Obviously, that is finally working in some way that it wasn't before. Keep doing what is working.
There.
Happy Thanksgiving!!
H is planning to come over Sunday to get the rest of his things. I know he was really upset the last time he was moving things out of the house, so he'll likely be upset Sunday too. That would not be a good time to bring up R talk. I'm considering asking him if he would meet me one night during the week to finish our talk from Wed.
I made a list of the behaviors I would need from H to be fully secure in him again. Is there any point in giving this to him unless he asks? Although he is talking to me sometimes about each of our resentment/insecurities that have led us to this point, he still sounds very firm on divorce, and I don't know if it would be detrimental to give him the list, like I'm making demands on him or assuming that he is willing to meet those needs.
Good day today. H came over to pack his stuff, and I put on a great attitude and helped (that is a 180 from right after he moved). We had some good conversations about current events, the kids, and even what to expect next in the divorce process (I should get the papers sometime this week, then we have 60 days until it's final). H left to drop off a load of things and said he'd be back later that evening - I invited him to have dinner with me and the kids and he agreed! It's the first time in 5 months that we had dinner as a family and actually talked and laughed - no newspaper or TV to hide behind (I hid them). I suggested that we have regular family dinners, perhaps on his weekends when the kids transition from his house to mine, and he agreed provided "it's only about the kdis and only as long as it's good for the kids." That is at least something.
H seemed surprised when I told him I was going to change my name - he closed his eyes and took a deep breath before responding to the question I'd wrapped that little tidbit in.
H is very angry still about my call/email to potential OW, and very angry that I'm not sorry I did it. He has a vast conspiracy theory of how I'm trying to isolate him from everyone so he has to come back to me - I told him I don't want him on those terms; I want a man who wants me, and right now H doesn't want me (he agreed out loud, drat him).
I gave H my list of behaviors I would need from him. He took the list, but told me that "if I had feelings for you last week, your actions killed them. Now I'm only neutral." Of course, last week he said he was neutral too. This is the closest I've gotten to an admission from him that part of him still loves me since the week after he left. H is not willing at the moment to give me his list of what he would need from me. He did listen while I tried to explain why it was so important to me to have HIS children, and why his initial refusal to have them with me made me feel like I wasn't important to him. I also explained (again) that he has always been the most important thing to me, but that I didn't know how to show him that. He glared the whole time I talked and he didn't say anything at all, but he didn't interrupt, and he didn't just leave (which would have been easy to do - he was leaning against the door and we were done with everything else we needed to talk about or do).
I'll see him tomorrow for a kid handoff. I plan to act AS IF and try to draw him out with conversation, as, again, that seems to be working better than being aloof and not talking to him.
The kid handoff was civil on Monday - H came in but left quickly. For the rest of the week H has been very withdrawn - for the first part of the week he didn't even respond to emails about the kids with a "thanks", like he normally would.
I made a mistake Monday evening and sent him an email explaining again why I didn't think any comments I made had a chance of breaking up his "friend" at work and her fiance. He had also accused me of isolating him from another friend, so I sent her an email apology in case I said something that made her uncomfortable; I forwarded her response to him Tuesday. She said I had been very respectful and that she considered their friendship to be the same as it had been.
H complained again Sunday that I never appreciated him, so I've been sending him one thank-you email a day for something he did or said in our relationship that I might never have properly appreciated at the time. In the first one I told him to let me know if this made him uncomfortable and I would stop. He didn't say anything about it Mon night and hasn't mentioned them since.
Had to call H last night to tell him D4 needs counseling. He sounded very sick/tired/depressed/something and then was really quiet after I told him about the conversation I had with her. Once again, there were pauses, and I was the first to hang up the phone. Had to email him a few times today to coordinate appointments for the kids, and he was terse sometimes and gave extra information sometimes.
H is really insecure, and I make a very convenient scapegoat for all things that are wrong in his life. I'm realllly tired of that, and I'm getting more and more fed up with the way he treats me/has treated me for the last year.
I cancelled the MC appointment for next week; before I could tell him he emailed me to say he wasn't going anyway.
Reality should be sinking in for him soon, if it hasn't already. D4 is upset enough to need therapy, and H should have the initial divorce papers in hand very soon, if he doesn't already (he hasn't brought my copy to me yet).
My plan?
Continue working to change my own behaviors (the 180s) for me and the kids.
Continue to GAL.
Continue sending him one appreciation a day by email, without ever bringing it up in conversation - it is a (long overdue) gift to him, with no expectation of reward.
Be civil, don't try to draw him out, but respond if he initiates conversation.
Repeat "I am getting divorced" in the mirror 10 times a day until I can say it without tearing up. That will help me speak to him calmly about it without clinging (I hope).
Repeat "I am getting divorced" in the mirror 10 times a day until I can say it without tearing up. That will help me speak to him calmly about it without clinging (I hope).
I so need to do this too! I hate when I cry in front of my H, because he shows no emotion. Though he hasn't dropped the D bomb yet, I feel having some kind of mantra like this will help me become more emotionally detached. Thanks!
Lorie
Lorie, I have a whole PAGE of mantras, that include both icky things ("H is not coming home") and nice things ("my mother loves me. I'm an intelligent woman.") Don't forget the nice things.
Have seen H 5 days in a row now, all for kid-related things. He actually let me in his apartment for the first time when I picked up S on Saturday, usually he either drops off the kids or he meets me at the door. He fell back into some of our old patterns on Sun and got mad at me twice b/c he misunderstood what I was saying or b/c I misunderstood him. I did not fall into my usual pattern of arguing that there was no way of misunderstanding, I just said "I'm sorry you were confused" and explained what I thought had been discussed. His anger seemed to diffuse a little more easily. I also told him he was no longer allowed to raise his voice to me in my home - he made an excuse to go outside, calmed down and came back in (another new development). When he returned, he invited me to spend Christmas morning with him and the kids so that I can watch them get Santa presents (per the standard custody schedule, he gets them for Christmas this year; we had already agreed that I would have time with them on my own on either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, so this is an addition). He didn't even use the kids as an excuse - this was a gift to me. I cried and whispered "thank you".
He is waiting for me to decide how I want to proceed with the D, but he hasn't brought it up to me - although it's been 2 weeks since he filed, I was the one who asked what was happening next (stupid move!). I'm supposed to go to my lawyer and make arrangements to meet with his lawyer to receive a copy of the petition and work on the temporary order. S has a nasty cold and requires me to stay home with him, so there is no way I can go this week
I will wait to see if H brings the delay up or if he gets annoyed and has me served.
H's birthday is this week. I bought small presents for him from the kids and baked a mini birthday cake for them to bring him; he turned down an offer to have a birthday dinner at my house (he is on nights again, which means he doesn't wake up early, and, well, he's GRUMPY). This weekend we're jointly hosting a birthday party for Dalmost5, so I should see plenty of him in a happy environment.
Neither of us has mentioned the daily emails I'm sending. Overall, he's treating me just a little more friendly than is required for co-parenting, but not much more. I really don't see a path for reconciliation unless he has a huge about-face and is willing to try to forgive hurts of the past. I honestly don't know if he would be capable of doing that without some help, and he's not willing to go to IC or MC. So I keep praying to be shown the path I'm supposed to take, and I keep doing the things I laid out. My goal is to not regret any action I take, regardless of whether H or I end up back together.
H returned one of the presents unopened, mixed in with a bag of the kids' clothes, so I didn't see it right away. I had to call him about the kids tonight, and mentioned that I had found the present, that it was also from the kids, that I thought it petty that he could not accept a gift given with no strings, and that I thought that, as grownups, we need to actually tell each other when there is a problem rather than be so sneaky. I told him it was not a ploy to get him back, as he did not treat me well before he left and has continued the same bad behaviors since we've been separated.
He told me that the present was inappropriate, and that I needed to let go. He hemmed and hawed and finally brought up the emails and said that I was obviously spending too much time thinking about him(?!?) and that I was "dragging us back when we need to move forward". I asked him to stop trying to read my mind and discern my motives/feelings (this is getting to be a familiar refrain).
There were a lot of silences on the phone - I was trying to figure out what to say in a few instances, and I don't know if he was just waiting me out or if he had something to say too. I am always the one to hang up.
I sent the whole appreciation list to him in one big email after the phone call. I found it interesting that he said "dragging US back"; I guess they were getting to him a little. That was pretty much the last of my "plan".
Saw H for a few minutes Thur to exchange kids and did not talk to him at all on Fri or Sat (he didn't even call to see if kids were feeling better). Sun he showed up an hour early for D's birthday party with a ton of balloons - going overboard a bit? I mostly ignored him at the party; he acted in many ways like he had never left, making himself comfortable, being generally irritable.
I've got the kids' cold now, too, and it's left me without much energy to focus on him, which is good. I'm just tired of all the nonsense. My mother had to come from 3 hours away to help me with the kids because H isn't willing to make life a little harder for himself to take care of them when I am sick. I'm tired of the drama, I'm tired of H. I'm ready to really implement the LRT and stop talking to him about anything except what I absolutely have to.
--edited by dbmod: advertising
Sounds like a great plan CR. You will be fine. You will make it through. Finally, and most importantly, you will be happy in the end.