Hi everyone,
I am brand new to this site after reading The Divorce Remedy and I need some help on how to deal with my kids. I think my wife is going through a mid-life crisis, she filed for divorce last week and wants to tell the kids now that we are getting divorced. I obviously do not want this, but I don't know what I can tell my kids. Can I tell them that I am agreeing to it and I think it is what is best, but that is not what I want or does that have too negative an impact on their lives? Everything I have read says to tell them that this is final so they don't continue to have hope, even though I do.
I am 43 years old and have been with my wife for 23 years We have 2 kids, ages 11 and 9. We have essentially spent all of our adult lives together. In January, my wife told me that she hasn't been happy for 10 years. She loves me, but is not in love with me. We went to see a counselor, but he was worthless and she didn't even try. I read 4 books, but showing her more love and support didn't work. I did everything she asked of me, except give her space. I couldn't bring myself to leave her side. She recently said that she cares about me and we could be friends forever and hang out, but she doesn't want to have any intimacy with me and she knows those feelings will never change. I found out recently that she has had or is still having an emotional affiar with a married man. She has lost 30 lbs (weighs 130lbs @ 5' 10") and has become a workout freak. She is a parole officer and recently said the only thing she can do is evaluate sex offenders. She has been putting a lot of pressure on herself and believes that once I am gone, she will be happy. Does this sound like a MLC to you guys?
We are planning to both live in the house while the divorce is pending because we can't afford to live apart. I'm not sure that is a good idea, but I don't really have any other options. I am really hoping that she will come around eventually, but I don't know how long I will be able to wait it out.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
First: Tell the kids only what you must, that you BOTH love them very much and this, WHATEVER the outcome is has NOTHING to do with them or that love.
Second: NEVER say never, and never believe when she says she will "never" feel that way again. I'm living proof if it helps.
Third: Don't even try to be a pshycologist and declaire her in MLC, or anything else to "plan a strategy". She is a WAS, nothing more, nothing less.
It sounds a lot like a MLC to me and very much like my situation. I suggest really reading other people's stories on this board and asking for opinions/assistance.
Third: Don't even try to be a pshycologist and declaire her in MLC, or anything else to "plan a strategy". She is a WAS, nothing more, nothing less. [/quote]
What is a WAS? Does that mean I should just accept that she is gone?
WAS = Walk Away Spouse
You should accept that she is hurting and although right now she says 100% of that hurt is "because of you", you do have to accept that in reality 50% of it is.
What is a WAS? Does that mean I should just accept that she is gone?
Walk Away Spouse. I know I am still learning the lingo myself.
Read up here
I have accepted my role and I have changed in the ways she has asked me to, but to no avail. One, I have done too much now and I think she may have lost respect for me. Two, I have been too desperate and needy for 5 months and was unable to give her the "space and time" she requested. She is sleeping in the guest room now, but she has also filed for divorce and we are in for $6k. I feel it is too late and that I pushed her out the door with my relentless pursuit. Now we have to tell the kids we are getting a divorce? I just don't feel like I can take this anymore. Everything I do seems to be wrong, but at least I have started to stand-up for myself. Got my own bank and credit card. Canceled one card, but still have to cancel one more that we both use. She says she won't run it up, but can I trust her? Trying to remain strong and pretend I am moving on, but it doesn't always happen that way.
, I have been too desperate and needy for 5 months and was unable to give her the "space and time" she requested.
And THAT is where you need to re-start.
What do I tell my kids if they ask if I WANT to get divorced?
What do I tell my kids if they ask if I WANT to get divorced?
The truth. I let my wife do most of the talking when we told our kids. It was very apparent it wasn't my idea. If this is what your wife wants then let her own it, the brutal reality needs to sink in on her side as well.
I found out recently that she has had or is still having an emotional affiar with a married man.
If you want to stay married then you need to bust this first. What kind of evidence do you have?
She is the one who wants out and I beleive that should be CLEAR to your children. If it comes to that with me, I am going to say that I have made my fare share of mistakes but wanted to stay togethor. It is HER decsion to break up your family, not yours. As far as I am concerned, If I get divorced, in my mind it will be as though she never existed
I think in my wife's mind, she has this fantasy that we will remain cordial and have this friendly relationship if divorced. She has no idea what kind of a$$ hole I will become
She is the one who wants out and I beleive that should be CLEAR to your children. If it comes to that with me, I am going to say that I have made my fare share of mistakes but wanted to stay togethor. It is HER decsion to break up your family, not yours.
NEVER involve your children in the mud slinging. They don't care who's at fault, they are already hurt enough that one of you isn't going to be in there lives as you should and their world is upside down enough.
I do agree with the notion that it is Dan's W's job to tell them, but I would discuss exactly what she is going to say first.
I think in my wife's mind, she has this fantasy that we will remain cordial and have this friendly relationship if divorced. She has no idea what kind of a$$ hole I will become
Wow, good luck busting your divorce with that approach.
I found out recently that she has had or is still having an emotional affiar with a married man.
If you want to stay married then you need to bust this first. What kind of evidence do you have? [/quote]
Phone records. And the guy's wife called me. I did bust her on it and she says she isn't calling him anymore, but I think she may be calling him from her work. I am still in contact with his wife occasionally and I have talked to the guy twice myself. Had lunch with is wife on saturday for 4 1/2 hours. Pretty enlightening conversation. She told him and he was very upset about it and to never talk to me again.
I think in my wife's mind, she has this fantasy that we will remain cordial and have this friendly relationship if divorced. She has no idea what kind of a$$ hole I will become
Wow, good luck busting your divorce with that approach.
Sorry....feeling very pissed off today
Sorry....feeling very pissed off today
Understandable, been there many of time over the course of my 'ride'. I just fret when I see folks bring their personal problems into another's situation. It's ok to vent, by all means, you'll here that 100 times over, but I'd just keep it in my own thread and make sure to mark it "venting".
She is the one who wants out and I beleive that should be CLEAR to your children. If it comes to that with me, I am going to say that I have made my fare share of mistakes but wanted to stay togethor. It is HER decsion to break up your family, not yours. As far as I am concerned, If I get divorced, in my mind it will be as though she never existed
I was at that place too for a while. Still not sure about dividing up pictures. I feel like I won't want ANY of her or of our wedding. Only the kids. Will just want to forget about her. She will be dead to me. But I don't actually know if I can bring myself to that place.
Funny thing is that we still get along so good. We never fought before and still don't. Since telling me in January that she hasn't been happy we have gone to a number of concerts, sporting events with the kids, visited relatives, talked, etc. and always seem to have a good time. She smiles, laughs, jokes and sometimes even gives me nice looks, but she has always been so cold about her lack of feelings for me. Then she files for divorce without telling me and just keeps pushing through. She told our neighbor that I think it is a MLC, but she knows it isn't. She has "thought through every scenario" (without talking to me about it) and she "KNOWS with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that this is what she HAS to do."
I don't understand how we can have such good times and yet she still feels this way about our marriage? I am at a loss.
Second: NEVER say never, and never believe when she says she will "never" feel that way again. I'm living proof if it helps.
Living proof here too. Realize, when she says she'll "never" feel that way again, that's of course based on what she knows now. How can it be based on anything else? The problem with absolute statements like that is, things change. Show her change, long enough, and consistently enough, and what was previously absolute is now back up in the air. Two years ago, my W was absolutely convinced our M was hopeless, because she didn't "love me like she should". A year ago we went out to dinner and had an abolutely great time. At the end she said "There's no going back for me", but I could hear a tiny hesitation in her voice. Just six months ago she was still saying she feels emptiness towards me, and can't see it ever changing, but I could hear serious doubt in her voice. Now she's realized how much of it was due to her problems, how much I've changed to be a better man, and she sees me differently now. She's very affectionate, like back when we first started dating, and we're talking about a future together. So just take your W's absolute statements with a grain of salt and let time do it's magic on them, provided you do your part and make yourself a fun, interesting, strong man she wants to be with.
She recently said that she cares about me and we could be friends forever and hang out...
No way! This is your power. Make it clear this will NOT happen. If she wants to leave and D you, you can't stop her, but you'll be dam*ed if you'll hang around and be her BFF. My W had her world rocked when I made it clear I would NOT be her friend, in fact I would barely speak to her. I reduced our relationship to a weekly text message "What time should I pick up the kids?" Additionally, I made sure she knew I would be working toward finding a new W and building a new family, and she would no longer mean anything to me. My new W would get all of me, and she'd get a monthly check. The kids would have a new step mom, who would have fun with them and help me take care of them. I also let her know I changed the beneficiary on my life insurance to my father, instead of her, and that in the event of my death, she'd have to work with him regarding the kids' college expenses. I got in great shape, got a new life, was going out and having fun all the time. She was working long hours to support her new household, and hardly ever had fun. I took the kids to our old spring break vacation spot, but with my new friends and their families, not her. All this ate away at my W's resolve. It took months and months, but slowly she realized the brutal reality of what she was losing.
One thing I've learned is that it's very easy to minimize the value of what you've got while you've still got it, and maximize the value of what you want until you get it.
...but she doesn't want to have any intimacy with me and she knows those feelings will never change. I found out recently that she has had or is still having an emotional affiar with a married man. She has lost 30 lbs (weighs 130lbs @ 5' 10") and has become a workout freak.
She is invested in someone else. You need to find out exactly what's going on. Does this man's W know?
We are planning to both live in the house while the divorce is pending because we can't afford to live apart. I'm not sure that is a good idea, but I don't really have any other options. I am really hoping that she will come around eventually, but I don't know how long I will be able to wait it out.
You are making it way too easy on her. She will not "come around" by sitting around waiting. Take action. Tell her living together waiting for a D is not going to work for you. You want to start building a new life, and having her in the house is a problem. Since she's the one who has decided to end the M, she should move out, and give her a deadline. Buy some new clothes, start going out on your own, and if she asks where, say with a smile "Just out, don't wait up for me."
As for telling the kids, if she's the one who wants this, let her do the talking. Just make it clear ahead of time with her that you will not tolerate her portraying it as a "mutual" decision, and if she does you will interrupt and correct her.
I don't understand how we can have such good times and yet she still feels this way about our marriage?
She got bored.
What's the status of the EA now?
I don't understand how we can have such good times and yet she still feels this way about our marriage?
She got bored.
What's the status of the EA now?
I don't think they are still talking, but I really don't know. If she is talking with him, it is not from our house or her cell phone. It would have to be from her work. She says it is done, but I have no way to really know.
You living proof guys ARE an inspiration to me!
Others have told me I am too nice too, but the book says not to become cold or nasty, bust to distance yourself. I think the court would have me move out and her and the kids stay there if living together was an issue, right? Should I move out so she can do everything for herself and find out what she is missing?
The OM's wife does know. She called me and told me what was going on. Then I busted my wife with the phone records and she said she wouldn't call him again. They met, supposedly with friends in tow, at a bar a couple of times. Both say nothing happened except talking, but who knows. I drove her past his house and there was no reaction, so I don't think she has been there. This guys wife had an affair on him previously and their own marriage is a mess. I had a long lunch with her last saturday and he was very mad. Told her to never talk to me again.
I'll take the advice on the friends thing. Maybe I need to start getting colder now? We have actually been working on the divorce papers together! That is probably insane, huh? She is going out with friends this weekend and I am watching the kids. I gotta get a life.
What about living arrangements for the kids? She wants primariy placement, but the court will give them to me 50% if I want it. That will kill her. She says that will be too hard on the kids. On the other hand, she thinks they will be fine with the divorce. She sees whatever she wants to see. What do others think about the affects of alternating weeks with the kids?
Why would you accept anything less than 50% ? You decide what you want, don't let her call all the shots.
Yes, you need to have plans for Friday night.
Funny thing is that we still get along so good. We never fought before and still don't. Since telling me in January that she hasn't been happy we have gone to a number of concerts, sporting events with the kids, visited relatives, talked, etc. and always seem to have a good time. She smiles, laughs, jokes and sometimes even gives me nice looks, but she has always been so cold about her lack of feelings for me. Then she files for divorce without telling me and just keeps pushing through. She told our neighbor that I think it is a MLC, but she knows it isn't. She has "thought through every scenario" (without talking to me about it) and she "KNOWS with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that this is what she HAS to do."
I don't understand how we can have such good times and yet she still feels this way about our marriage? I am at a loss.
EXACTLY like my W. Your W won't truly appreciate these good times until she loses them. All her talk about "thought through every scenario" is pure BS. Has she really thought about you getting a new W? That new W getting all these good times? This new W being in HER kids' lives? Splitting the holidays with the kids?
Back in November, my W, in her warped frame of mind, actually suggested we do Christmas together, that I sleep on the sofa at her house on Christmas Eve so we can both be there when the kids get up. This is what she suggests after she has an A and leaves me. Yeah, right! I said "No, you get Christmas Eve and Christmas morning this year, I'll pick the kids up at noon on Christmas Day." I told her nothing about my plans with the kids for Christmas, I told her nothing about my gifts for them. She dropped them off at my house, I opened the door and let the kids go running in, I said thanks, and Merry Christmas, handed her small gifts for her and the dog (she took the dog when she left), smiled and closed the door. She kept her chin up, but she knows this year I get the kids on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning, and it made her face brutal reality.
They claim to be helpless about their lack of feelings, but when forced to confront these hard realities, all of a sudden their feelings just "pop" back. My W even says "I don't know why, but I'm attracted to you again." Wow. The thing is, I don't think she's lying, I think she IS attracted to me again (she sure acts like it!), and I really think she has no idea that fear of loss is what has triggered her feelings.
Others have told me I am too nice too, but the book says not to become cold or nasty, bust to distance yourself. I think the court would have me move out and her and the kids stay there if living together was an issue, right? Should I move out so she can do everything for herself and find out what she is missing?
Don't become cold and nasty, just be "gone". I don't know what state you're in, but get yourself the best lawyer you can and find out what your legal rights are. She's the one who wants the D, she should be the one to leave, not you. Think about it, she's trying to throw you out of your own home! Stop working on the D papers with her. Tell her your tired of having all this negative crap weigh you down, that you want to start living again, and even if it costs more, it's worth it to have a lawyer deal with all the legal mumbo jumbo. Give her your lawyer's card and tell her to deal with him/her from now on regarding the legal stuff, then go have some fun.
She'll have to do a lot more if SHE is the one to move out.
I know the idea of shared custody probably breaks your heart, but unfortunately she's only leaving you with bad options, and I think the best of those is 50/50 custody. At least the kids maintain a significant relationship with both of you. If she gets primary custody, you'll become an "every other weekend" Dad, which is truly heart breaking. At least if you have them half the time, you'll get to experience life with them. Remember, her trying to get primary custody is a way for her to minimize HER pain over all this, NOT the kids pain. She'll try to use the kids as leverage on you. Don't let her.
What Future said!
I have four young kids and share your agony about what this will do to them and how I don't want to be a part time dad. We have to play the cards we are dealt.
She'll have to do a lot more if SHE is the one to move out.
It took every ounce of strength and willpower for a couple of months before I found this site for me not to leave my home. It still does, sometimes. But, everyone here is right; if she wants the D, she needs to be the one to leave. I am at the point in my sitch that I wish, every day, she would leave. It would make it easier to do what I would need to do in that situation. No more wondering, pressure, walking on eggshells. But, she won't.
The best thing for us to do is:
Don't become cold and nasty, just be "gone".
Act like you have accepted the whole sitch and agree with her. It is hard, but my W has backed down each time I have said, "I agree and I am done, too. Let's get lawyers and get this thing going and stop wasting time." I still get the silent treatment, but she won't leave. And I wonder why; is she having second thoughts, has she changed her mind? As Greek pointed out to me today, I can't wonder about why. I can control my actions and attitude towards her when she is an a$$. Just let her be.
Post often and get your frustrations out here. It does help!
Most of what I read says that frequent and equal parenting time is best for the children. My experience shows this to be true. I am glad I stood up against the wishes of my ex wife and have joint custody and a 50/50 parenting plan.
Ps: she got really angry.....but I did the right thing.....not the easy thing.
I don't have time to go through in detail what everybody has said, but 'future' has hit alot of my points:
Abosuletly no friggen way in hell do you move out. She wants a D? She wants to be involved with someone else? Give her the reality check I did to my STBW: "Get the eff out my house". This also gives you the leg up on custody should D become unavoidable, courts want the least distruption in the kids lives, thus whom ever has the marital (family) residence is a step ahead. Also, when her L asks "why did he kick you out of the house?", heh, what do think she's gonna come up with? Lawyers dont work well when their clients are lying (ironc when half the crap they sling around in court IS lies).
I tell you, that was a POWERFUL move on my part. The extreme slap in the face to her was te fact the hosue was in HER DAD's name, yet I had his backing to kick her to the curb. Food for thought.
More food for thought: If OM's wife is an aldultress herself, I'd cut communication with her out now! Especially face to face meetings. I could see that blowing up in your face really quick.
Furthermore, I also took the stance as 'future', each and everytime when STBW said "I want to be friends with you and maybe, just maybe we can grow back together", my answer was absolutley NOT, I REFUSE to be "friends" with my wife who lives with another man! NO WAY!
You have some tough times on your plate if she is currently determined as she says she is that "this is it" and you throw this in her face.
But guess what? That's growing your balls back buddy. And men who have balls to stand up against their aldutress wives earn RESPECT. And respect is what you lost from her and why she is doing this.
EDIT - And also, it might jsut make her think really hard really fast right now what she really wants to do.
Hey all. Taking some of the advice here and going out with my brother for his birthday tonight in Milwaukee. Should be a great time.
Kids were asking about D again last night. I had told them I was tired. They asked why and I said that I didn't sleep much. My son asked, why, cause you miss Mom? (she is sleeping in the other room). I said "yes, I miss her a lot." he asked if he should tell her and I said no, she already knows. Then they asked if we were getting D and I said I hope not, but what if we do? My son said he would jump off a cliff and my daughter said she would drown herself. Then they went on to talk about how the toys other divorced kids have are split between houses. They seemed ok, but I think this is really going to hurt them. My wife wants to tell them this weekend and say it was a mutual decision. I told her if they ask me, I will tell them this is not what I want, but I want Mom to be happy. I like the idea of having her tell them she is filing for a divorce, but I just don't know if that is best for the kids.
I also told her that she will not be living in our house with the kids, but without me after the divorce. she said she is not living together after it is final, so I said "why dont you just move out now?" Then I told her ither I will be buying her out or the house will be sold for what we can get for it at that time. I also told her I am going for 50% placement of the kids. She said she would fight it, but these days the judges almost always award it unless there is a serious issue that would prevent me from being a good dad. She said, apparently there was before, so I asked her what? She said "you are selfish I guess." She thinks I haven't spent enough time with the kids while they were younger, but don't think that reasoning will cut it for the judge. I was working 50-60 hrs a week, plus a 1 hr commute each way every day so we could live where she wanted to live and she could work part-time so she could drop-off/pick-up the kids every day and take care of everything for them. I told her she will find out what it is like when she goes back full time and she just said yeah, yeah and walked away. So I yelled walk away after her.
We had a couple of civil exchanges after that, so I think things will be ok, but she just left for the beach with the kids. I didn't go because I am leaving and will have the kids all day tomorrow. Sometimes I think it would just be better to forget about her and move on and find someone else.
Looks like this may get ugly for a while, but I do need to grow my balls back.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for their opinions and support. It really is good to talk to others going through the same things as I am.
Stop these conversations right now!
Do not discuss what you think you will or will not have or get or offer her in a D. EVER. By doing so, you are standing over a blazing firepit and dumpring 5 gallons of gas out of bucket on it.
Simply, "you want a divorce, you want to be done with me, you want someone else, then leave". "I'm sorry for what I have done or lack therof to bring things to this point that you see no other way, but if that is what you want, than it's best you leave". And not even in an angerly tone either, just a stern but compassionate and standing your ground for what remains of your family.
Reality check for you. I fought tooth and nail. My D got VERY nasty, she "abducted" our kids and withehld them from me. She sat IN THE COURT ROOM WITH OM! I proved each and every one of her claims false. Numerous police reports against me, all bullarchy and dismissed. Yet, I still ended up a 72 hour a month father! Do you want that? Discuss zero legalities directly with her. If she is to move out, then the children ARE NOT to leave the house without a joint parenting agreement (JPA) in place!!!! No joke!!!! As far as I'm concerned right now. You may not see them again after this trip they are on now.
I don't say this to be mean or belittle your W. You and I both know, you love her very much and want this insanity to stop 100 times faster than the millisecond it "got started".
However, you really need to pay attention and VALIDATE what she is telling you. You now have 2 days worth of posts where she placing in your hands everything you have done wrong, your convictions. Stop being so defensive! Defending your faults is only making it worse.
I'm also highly disturbed on your childrens comments and hope you gave them huge hugs and kisses and let them know you love them and it will be ok. I wasn't the greatest dad on earth either, one of my convictions. Be the better person and protect them from this. And at all costs, do not discuss this with them. I might also install family counseling in the JPA should one become neccessary.
I think I have validated her concerns over the last 5 months. In the beginning, she asked me if I thought she was just crazy. Maybe I should have said yes. I told her that she made some valid points and that I would work on the things she was concerned about. She tells people I have made a 180 and am doing everything she asked, but she can't help the way she feels. The I got too desperate, needy and clingy. I read all the books. Say nice things, compliments, buy gifts, flowers, go on dates again, be close to her. Then I was smothering her. But I couldn't help it. I loved her so much I couldn't stand the thought of being without her.
Even the OM told his W that I have really stepped-up and she just isn't responding to me.
I do like your apology statement above, a lot, but she isn't going to leave and there is no way for me to make her, is there? I suppose I could request it at the temporary hearing, but she had her atty take that same request of me out of the paperwork. I am going to try the "just be gone" advice and continue to be nice when I am around. No more divorce talk, but it did get emotional this am when talking about how/what to tell the kids.
Maybe I just need to take some deep breaths and mellow-out a little. Or find a little strange tonight!
Why is she still doing my laundry? If you were filing for divorce wouldn't you tell your STBXH to do his own laundry?
She wants to tell the kids on Sunday. that is Father's Day, so I am going to protest. It's not even 2 weeks she has been in a separate room yet, so we can wait a little longer to tell the kids, right? I told her I want it to be a time when we will both be around for a while, not just her and not just me, in case the kids want to talk. I suggested getting a kids therapist lined-up first, but she is poo pooing that, saying that we don't even know if the kids will need one. I said what is the harm in being prepared? Problem is, I can't get an appointment until July. Is that too long to wait to tell the kids?
Gotta go find a party tonight. I'll check-in with you all tomorrow.
Thanks!
Went out with my brother and his friends last night. A few drinks, then dinner, then a bunch of more drinks and went to a club that was jam-packed and had lots of good-looking younger women. Made me sick to think about starting all over again and I ended up leaving and breaking down crying. Texted W at 1:15am "Miss u. Too old for this [censored]. Remember that." How desperate and needy can you get? Sabotaged myself again. Somehow, I just can't help myself.
Today has been bad too. Broke down crying a few times. I don't know if I am going to be strong enough to do this. I can't even stand to think about moving and starting all over. W is out with friends today and tonight. Told me she is planning to come home, but it will be very late. I said whatever. Took the kids fishing for a while, but very windy today and no fish biting.
I saw someone asking about wearing a wedding ring in another thread. When W dropped the D bomb on June 5th, I offered mine to her, but she didn't take it. She still had hers on for a couple of days after that, but then I asked her if it meant anything that she still had it on. No answer, so I said, "I would have thought since you are divorcing me, you would have taken it off." Then I got on my knees and apologized one last time and pleaded for her to reconsider. She paid her attorney's retainer the next morning (Monday) and filed for D that week. I took my ring off on Wednesday and noticed that she had taken hers off too.
Gotta find something to do with the kids tonight to take my mind off of it or I am going to go insane.
This is the letter W wrote to me and gave me to drop the D bomb.
Dan,
This is a difficult letter to write, but I have a hard time putting things/feelings into words. I do not want to play the blame game. We both know how we got to where we are and the roles we played in it. You have apologized and I know I should have been more assertive in expressing my needs. I continue to struggle with this.
If I start from the beginning, I met you at a time in my life when I was hurt over a prior relationship and had suffered the shocking loss of my Dad. I had fun with you and you filled a void I had at that time. I knew I was not crazy infatuated - "head over heels", but it didn't matter. I wanted someone to spend time with, have fun with and who liked me. I was ok with all the sex in the beginning, because, unfortunately, I equated that with self-worth.
There were concerns I had from the beginning, such as your lack of patience, you being easily irritated by little things, you being unhappy/angry when you didn't have weed. I tried to ignore them and tried to make you happy. I decided the good outweighed the bad.
When I left our first house for a few days, before we were married, it wasn't just because of you marijuana use and lack of help running a household, but also because I had serious doubts about the depth of my feelings for you. I wondered if my feelings were deep enough to sustain a relationship for a lifetime. When I saw how devastated you were, I could not take it. I never want to feel responsible for making anyone so miserable. I came back because I wanted to make you happy and thought I loved you enough to be able to work it out. You apologized, and for a little bit, helped more, etc.
Before the summer of 1995, I thought about where our relationship was headed. I felt we invested a lot of time together and had been building a life and a home together. I decided I wanted children and felt that since you loved me, I could have that life with you. I was happy to be marrying you (she proposed to me in summer '95) but still had a few doubts about the way our relationship was and hoped I could remain happy and content with my decision. I felt very secure when we were married. I felt we could be together forever. I really felt I made the right choice. I trusted you, you were a good provider, smart, fun, etc.
I don't want to belabor all of what went wrong and I know you have heard it all before. I know it makes you angry when some things are brought-up repeatedly. Again, I don't want to blame anymore. I am only trying to sort out, in my own mind, when things started to go wrong. I don't want to go on and on about our sex life and how demanding it was to me, but just tell you how it made me feel and why. I felt I wasn't worthy of your help during the day, patience, listening, talking, doing things as a family, but at night, I was always good enough to have sex with. It didn't matter if I had an infection, stomach ache, headache, whatever, it was still expected. At one point I told you the Dr. said my frequent infections could be caused by too much sex. It didn't seem to matter to you. This added to my poor self esteem issues. Obviously, I felt I didn't matter.
I first discovered the porn thing when I was pregnant. this was another blow to my self esteem, especially knowing I'm pregnant and big, and still giving it up (sex) on a regular basis, no matter how uncomfortable. Even still, you had to be doing the porn. I had a lot of anger and hurt over that. Since I addressed this with you several time, and you did not care enough to stop it, this turned to disgust and anger. It is hard to have sex with someone when you are wondering what they saw on the internet and add to that the resentment of being tired and overwhelmed by all of my responsibilities at home.
I feel blessed and so lucky that we have two healthy, wonderful children. I know you love them, also. My feelings changed for you after watching your relationship with them. When you were nice to them and acted like you cared, did things with them, etc. it made me feel closer to you and more receptive to your sexual advances. I have a lot of hurt and frustration regarding this area of our lives. I won't go into more details, but cannot begin to express my disappointment and sadness I have felt over the years regarding your lack of attachment and interest in the kids.
Now to the present day. I know you have made so many significant changes, at my request. You've helped me more, backed-off on the sex, spent more time with the kids. I appreciate that. I have forgiven you and I hope you can forgive me for things I've done and said over the years that may have hurt you.
As I've told you, I've been unhappy with the way things have been for many years. Unfortunately, that has taken a toll on my feelings for you. I've told you this, but it must be so hard for you to understand since you don't feel the same way. I care about you as a person and the father of my children. I cannot be the wife you want me to be, I do not love you like that and haven't for quite a while. It doesn't matter how that happened, it just is. If I could change it, I would. I've struggled with these feelings for a long time and it is not fair to you or me. I do not want any intimacy with you and I know that is not going to change. I'm tired of feeling this way and can't go on continuing in this marriage just to try to please you. I don't deserve this and neither do you.
I have started the paperwork for a divorce. I can't even imagine how difficult this will be, but I also can't imagine continuing to live my life this way.
I hope you will think of the kids and their well-being from this day forward. Please, their entire future depends on how we handle this. I know you are really hurting right now - so am I. Don't let our hurt be at the children's expense. We must consider the kids every step of the way and also respect each other and the years we had. Neither of us are bad people. I am begging you to keep them your focus and how we are all going to get through this. I will always be there for you, just can't be there for you in the capacity you want me to.
When we are ready, we can discuss more details as it related to the kids, living arrangements, telling the kids, sleeping arrangements, vacation, etc.
Brenda
Just broke down crying while typing the end of that letter.
Anyone care to share any thoughts about my chances considering what was said in this letter?
Thanks to all for your help and support.
My wife wants to tell them this weekend and say it was a mutual decision. I told her if they ask me, I will tell them this is not what I want, but I want Mom to be happy. I like the idea of having her tell them she is filing for a divorce, but I just don't know if that is best for the kids.
Your wife is right. You should tell them it is a mutual decision. Should your wife tell the kids that you were looking at porn when she was pregnant and probably masturbating while doing it? Should she tell them you always wanted to have sex with her when she was sick and it didn't matter how she was feeling? AND these things are some of the reasons she wants the divorce? Or don't those truths matter?
Be careful here on trying to put this on your wife with some of the things it looks like you have done to push her away. What is best for the kids is to tell them it is mutual and just let them know that they are loved and that it isn't their fault. Leave the who wants it and who did what to who out of it. They don't need to know.
Thanks. I never said I was innocent in all this, and I didn't do those things to hurt her, but that was the end result. She never said no when she wasn't feeling well or I wouldn't have done it. I guess I should probably just accept this and move on since I am such an a$$hole. I just want her to be more expressive about what she wants/needs and I am willing to give it to her. I want to work on this, bit I think she is just done. I love her and my family more than life itself. When I wasn't at work, I was at home. I didn't go out drinking, chasing skirts or any of that. I just wanted to be with her. So I looked as some images on a screen. Don't most men do that? I was doing that for myself, but didn't that also give her a break that she needed? I'll never forgive myself for driving her out of my life.
Trying to find ways to keep busy and keep my mind occupied. Took the kids fishing both yesterday and today and had a fire with them last night while the wife was out on the town. I can't keep my mind off her though and it is very hard to maintain my composure. I preempted her for next Friday. I'm going to a music festival with a friend of mine. Will probably see others there also. Then, I am going to take my kids to grandma's for the 4th. They are begging to go, but W told them we may not be doing it this year. They love to swim in the pool and go to the fireworks where she lives. Told W that I am taking them. She asked if we were just going up for the evening and I told her no, that the kids want to swim too. Grandma (my mom) knows what is going on, so I'm guessing W wouldn't be comfortable there anymore. She once told my Mother that she was more of a Mom to her than her own Mom was. She always had a good time with my family, but became restless when visiting over the last couple of years. "I can't stand to just sit around there anymore.
Anyway, just checking in.
I am very confused as to how to continue moving forward at this point. W filed 2 weeks ago and people I know who have been through a divorce, and also my attorney, told me to “protect” myself financially. Since then I have opened my own checking account where my paychecks will be deposited going forward. I got my own credit card and advised her to do the same, which she did, so I canceled or removed her from all other credit cards. She seemed surprised that I was moving so quickly and she told me today that she is worried about how finances will be managed because she won’t have my check book and doesn’t know how she is going to get groceries when she needs to. I told her we will have to figure it out. Am I being too harsh? She said she wouldn’t run-up the credit cards, and I believe her, but………
We always got along very well. Never had fights or even arguments really. Maybe that was the biggest part of the problem….she rarely expressed herself or her feelings. I was a relentless pursuer for the last 5 months and I guess that is what finally drove her to file. I am trying to use the Last Resort Technique now, but she is still so friendly I am not sure how to respond. She is still doing my laundry, cooking dinners, etc. I have started to do more with the kids and am planning outings without her, trying to GAL and improve myself, but is engaging her in conversation (or her me actually) the right thing to do when using LRT? She went out on Sat and Sat nite and then started to tell me all about it on Sunday. How much she ate, how unhealthy the food was, burgers, burritos, lots of beer. Said she probably gained 5lbs, which would actually be good for her. This morning when I left, I told her I was going to remove her from my Discover account and she said ok. Then asked me if I was leaving and when I said yes, she said good-bye. I didn’t say anything and just walked out the door. Probably not the right thing to do?
Anyway, is just cutting off pursuit and giving space good enough, or do I have to stay away from her too? We continue to have fun when we are together, but perhaps that is just my impression and she is just acting. I’m having a hard time figuring out how to blend all these techniques together and figure out what to do next.
Someone advised reading Coach’s old posts, but I am having a hard time finding them. I want so badly for us to work this out, but she said she is not changing her mind! She seems pretty intent on this path.
Right now my gust says to continue to be around and friendly with her, but do not pursue ILY’s, romance, intimacy, etc.
I will reread postings above, but any additional advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Maybe I need to call a DB coach.
I am very confused as to how to continue moving forward at this point. W filed 2 weeks ago and people I know who have been through a divorce, and also my attorney, told me to “protect” myself financially. Since then I have opened my own checking account where my paychecks will be deposited going forward. I got my own credit card and advised her to do the same, which she did, so I canceled or removed her from all other credit cards. She seemed surprised that I was moving so quickly and she told me today that she is worried about how finances will be managed because she won’t have my check book and doesn’t know how she is going to get groceries when she needs to. I told her we will have to figure it out. Am I being too harsh?
Nope. Time for her to put on what Greek called "the big-girl panties."
As for how you should act around her, I think the consensus is to be CIVIL, but not "friendly." Certainly not continue to be her BEST friend, like when the marriage was intact and healthy. Polite. Courteous (this is why you SHOULD have said "goodbye" to her -- that was just rude not to).
Puppy
she is worried about how finances will be managed
ooopsie, not a very well thought out plan, huh?
When things went down in my sitch, that exactly when she got the reality check, "I'm not good enough for you, thus neither is MY money (she was always in charge of finances)". Also, "I'm not good enough to be your husband, than I'm no longer good enough to be your 'best friend', carpenter, mechanic, cook, maid, nothing, nada". And certainly, do not enable things by being the 'designated babysitter'!
Anyone here have experience with the DB coaches? I am thinking about getting one to help me pull all of this together. It's only been 2 weeks since she filed for D, but 5 months have already passed since this whole thing started. I can't really afford it right now, but sometimes I think it is my only chance.
Last night I thought a lot more about some of the things she has told me. I have apologized for so much, but I think dday is right above when he says I have to stop defending myself. I have continued to disagree with ther that I have been selfish, even though I probably have. She says it was selfish of me to skip events like week-end movies, going to the beach, etc. with her and the kids. Those were things I never really liked to do, but I should have done them anyway.
She also told me a few months back that I made her feel used sexually. Like an object or possession of mine rather than my wife. That she felt like a piece of meat. Although she never said "no" to my advances, looking back, I can see how she could have felt that way. Do I bring these things up now and apologize to her for them? Or should I wait for her to bring them up before I say anything. I don't want to wait too long, but I don't want to be too late either, which I may already be.
She says it was selfish of me to skip events like week-end movies, going to the beach, etc. with her and the kids. Those were things I never really liked to do, but I should have done them anyway.
And to further understand her point of view, where were you instead? Be HONEST.
she is worried about how finances will be managed
ooopsie, not a very well thought out plan, huh?
When things went down in my sitch, that exactly when she got the reality check, "I'm not good enough for you, thus neither is MY money (she was always in charge of finances)". Also, "I'm not good enough to be your husband, than I'm no longer good enough to be your 'best friend', carpenter, mechanic, cook, maid, nothing, nada". And certainly, do not enable things by being the 'designated babysitter'!
It's a package deal, dear.
Puppy
She says it was selfish of me to skip events like week-end movies, going to the beach, etc. with her and the kids. Those were things I never really liked to do, but I should have done them anyway.
And to further understand her point of view, where were you instead? Be HONEST.
To be honest, I don't really remember all the details of what I was doing that far back. Last time I skipped the movie I was working on finishing our basement. I'm sure sometimes I was doing yard work and sometimes I was looking at internet skin. That's embarrassing.
Last night we were all riding in the car coming home from my son's baseball game and he asked if Mom was coming with us to Grandma's for the 4th of July. She said she didn't think so. He asked "Why, are you doing something else?" She said she didn't know if she was doing anything or not. Then he said, "So you might come?" She said no, she wasn't coming along. Then he said, "Why? Because you hate Dad?" She said "I don't hate Dad!" Then he dropped it and I didn't say anything.
For Father's Day, my daughter made me a picture frame with her picture in it and a laminated sheet of paper that talked about her Dad. It said:
"The important thing about my Dad is that he loves his family.
It is true that he works out.
And that he works at Rust-Oleum.
And that he was a chef.
But the most important thing about my dad is that he loves his family."
Brought tears to my eyes. I posted on the refrigerator for my wife to see every time she opens the door.
Last night we were all riding in the car coming home from my son's baseball game and he asked if Mom was coming with us to Grandma's for the 4th of July. She said she didn't think so. He asked "Why, are you doing something else?" She said she didn't know if she was doing anything or not. Then he said, "So you might come?" She said no, she wasn't coming along.
This sounds more like a taste of your own medicine. In retaliations, cheaters get cheated on, derserters get deserted, abusers get abused.
Quite frankly, I'm not comfortable with the statement, "I don't really remember what I was doing that far back". Start. Because I'll tell you what, YOU WILL remember precisely what you weren't doing when the chance is taken away from you by a judge.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying she is deserting me because I deserted her? Maybe that is true. Maybe I do deserve this, but I don't think that is what is going on. This will hurt her more than me, but Grandma knows she has filed and she is not comfortable going to Grandma's house. She isn't skipping this event to hurt me.
A lot of these events happened 5+ yrs ago when the kids were very little. I can't remember every detail of what I was doing back then. I am trying to be honest. I do know that I skipped a lot of the little kids movies and going to the beach sometimes, but I did go to all the sporting events and many other things too. More recently, I have been spending a lot more time with the kids. The question is, what do I do now to help me save this? Do I go tell her NOW that she is right and I was selfish and wrong to skip these events and that I am sorry. I have told her that all I want to do going forward is focus on the marriage and family and find things that we can enjoy doing together, but she has never showed interest in helping to put together any list.
Dan,
I'm not saying what I am to 'attack' or anything. I think there are still some issues with you not owning up is all, I think you're not only defending yourself to your W, but from yourself. If you want my honest opinion, I think you need to spend some time hashing things with yourself, before you can your W. Just my 2 cents in what I read here.
In saying that. It might not seem a big deal to you that you missed this or that as you didn't miss this or that. But it is to your W, quite obviously. You won't become father of the year overnight, for sure. I know I certainly wasn't and at the current moment, the only thing wrong in my sitch is a yet again straining relationship between myself, STBW and the kids. But, I'll tell you from my experience one little thing. My STBW and I are abid rollercoaster freaks to no end. And we couldn't wait for the day that they were finally big enough to get on them with us. And that day came. But, it was with STBW, them, and OM in my place. Just one of the "firsts" moments for them I will never have the pleasure of knowing.
Sorry, I am kind of emotioinal at the moment. I didn't think you were attacking me, but I am just trying to understand how to proceed at the moment. All I want is for us to get back together. I must be kind of slow. What do you think I need to hash out with myself? The level of involvement I really want with my kids? What I am looking for in a relationship?
You're right. I probably haven't owned-up to everything I have done, but I really did think things were ok and I believe I have been a pretty good father. I have done more with my kids than either of our parents did with us. She has issues with the lack of interest her parents gave to her and her sister, while they were all about the boys and their sporting events. I think she overcompensates for that by doing everything with/for the kids. We could rarely go out together for 10 years because no one was good enough to watch her kids, including me. I also think she is projecting her feelings about her parents lack of involvement onto my kids and their feelings for me. Now I am crying again. I haven't gotten anything done at work for days. Thank you for trying to help me. I just feel so desperate.
I'm sorry you had to miss-out on the rollercoaster rides with your kids. Mine were very special. My wife and I love those too and my son is waling right in my footsteps there, but my daughter isn't really that into them. Maybe a bit too young yet. My son and I stayed at the theme park after the rest of family and friends left to ride late night when we could ride over and over again. We rode the "Batman" at Six Flags 6 times without having to even get off the ride. It was great. He couldn't take it anymore and kept saying "It's time to leave!!" I told him that me and his uncle used to ride and ride until the park closed. We had a great time. He now loves what he used to call "upside-downs". It used to be if there were too many, he wouldn't go on the ride. A great place to go for riding is Bush Gardens in Tampa if you get the chance. No line = lots of rides on some great rollercoasters. I hope you get the chance again.
I posted on the refrigerator for my wife to see every time she opens the door.
you are indirectly involving your children in the resentment that you and your wife have for eachother. please dont.
wouldnt it be better if you held it closer to your heart than your wifes appetite?
I waas hoping it would make her rethink her decision. I don't know what else to do.
I waas hoping it would make her rethink her decision. I don't know what else to do.
Let her see it once, and then put it away for safekeeping.
You can't teach a wayward.
Puppy
Sorry to keep asking this, but can/should I apologize for past mistakes while trying to utilize the Last Resort technique, or is that considered pursuing?
If I've read your thread correctly, you already HAVE??
I'd apologize for things only ONCE, and then move on. When confronted by her again with your past sins, say "I've already acknowledged my contributions to the dysfunction in our marriage, and have even asked for your forgiveness. And I'm working very hard to improve myself in these areas, whether that ends up being for us or just because it's the right thing to do for me as a person. But I'm not going to keep letting you badger me about my faults, because it serves no purpose. If you stop this flight of yours, and come back to our marriage, I think you'll find me ready and willing to work on all issues -- even mine."
See how the above is STRONG. Repeated apologies are supplicating and WEAK, and she won't respect them.
Puppy
what is your definition of "Last Resort technique?"
. Repeated apologies are supplicating and WEAK, and she
"and he kicked him in the ding-ding". -Eddie Murphy (Delarious? or Raw don't remember)
from above "You can't teach a wayward."
is your wife involved with another person already?
what is your definition of "Last Resort technique?"
Don't have one. It's been awhile since I read the book. I'm more of a "Plan A"/"Plan B" guy anyway.
Puppy
what is your definition of "Last Resort technique?"
Last resort is to stop pursuing and get a life? I haven't been saying I love you since the day she said she was going to file and I had to leave the house and we have had no physical contact whatsoever since then. Just over 2 weeks. But she is so nice to me.
. Repeated apologies are supplicating and WEAK, and she
"and he kicked him in the ding-ding". -Eddie Murphy (Delarious? or Raw don't remember)
Just googled it. It was RAW. Very funny, I remember it well. I like to use that quote too.
I find the "last resort" thing completely silly. How in the world does the LBS get the stance to say, this is the last resort to fix this, when the WAS has already pulled THE last resort after years of saying trouble was a brew'n?
That said,
Dan, you've exhausted everything in your arsenal? I think not. You havn't even yet discovered your most valuable weapons.
what is your definition of "Last Resort technique?"
Last resort is to stop pursuing and get a life?
Ehhh wrong.
from above "You can't teach a wayward."
is your wife involved with another person already?
I think it was an EA for a while, but they said they were just sharing their problems. Both having marital issues. Met in December, not much going on until late march - mid may. then texts and call were pretty numerous. EA's wife called me and left a voice mail and then called back. I got phone records and confronted her. She said she wouldn't be calling him anymore and I don't think she has, but I don't know because she may be calling from her work phone. His wife is watching closely.
Whe she told me she was going to file, she said she had made the decision to file before I found out about the EA, but I don't know if that is really true. She was waiting for the kids to be out of school before she told me/them.
I find the "last resort" thing completely silly. How in the world does the LBS get the stance to say, this is the last resort to fix this, when the WAS has already pulled THE last resort after years of saying trouble was a brew'n?
That said,
Dan, you've exhausted everything in your arsenal? I think not. You havn't even yet discovered your most valuable weapons.
I don't think I've even come close to exhausting my arsenal yet, but I want her to know that I accept what she is saying about my prior behavior. As someone else said previously, I have to validate her feelings and I haven't yet done that in all areas. I have apologized for much, but not for being selfish, because I really didn't think I was. I put a lot of effort into making our lives better, but it was primarily at my job and earning $ so we could have a comfortable life. Now she says she doesn't care about the money, even though we spend it like pigs.
I am way too impatient. I am looking for results way too early.
Thanks all for the conversation. I have to go to a meeting for a couple of hours now and then to the Dr. I will check back in later today to see what other advice any of you are willing to share.
If I am wrong about last resort, then what is it? Didn't I say what is in the book? Be ready to move on, but I am simply not.
Bad day today.
but I want her to know that I accept what she is saying about my prior behavior. As someone else said previously, I have to validate her feelings and I haven't yet done that in all areas. I have apologized for much, but not for being selfish, because I really didn't think I was. I put a lot of effort into making our lives better, but it was primarily at my job and earning $ so we could have a comfortable life.
You've apologized. Done.
The rest is about action. ACT like you get what you were doing wrong before. 180. If you were a selfish jerk before...act like a compassionate human being going forward. If you were stale and boring before....start doing things that are different and exciting. Get a bucket list and start working on it!. If you were sarcastic and biting before....soften your words. See what I mean? She is watching what you DO! Even if she insists she is not watching, she is. Geeez, women notice EVERYTHING (that's why we can be so brutal with EACH OTHER! ha!).
Have you moved out? Please say no.
Greek
Have not moved out. She is in the other bedroom. MC suggested a trial separation, but I said I didn't want to do that. Been thinking about it tho once the initial court date is past and they haven't had the court get me out of the house. That was her lawyers suggestion, but she said no.
I was thinking that may be the only way she misses me and gets enough time and space away from me. I really did smother her for 5 months.
I also thought about moving into the basement and just completely avoiding her for a while. Wouldn't even have to see me.
but I want her to know that I accept what she is saying about my prior behavior. As someone else said previously, I have to validate her feelings and I haven't yet done that in all areas. I have apologized for much, but not for being selfish, because I really didn't think I was. I put a lot of effort into making our lives better, but it was primarily at my job and earning $ so we could have a comfortable life.
You've apologized. Done.
The rest is about action. ACT like you get what you were doing wrong before. 180. If you were a selfish jerk before...act like a compassionate human being going forward. If you were stale and boring before....start doing things that are different and exciting. Get a bucket list and start working on it!. If you were sarcastic and biting before....soften your words. See what I mean? She is watching what you DO! Even if she insists she is not watching, she is. Geeez, women notice EVERYTHING (that's why we can be so brutal with EACH OTHER! ha!).
This is GREAT advice, Greek. One of the hardest things for me to come to grips with in my sitch was the utter impotence of my WORDS. I've always good a good writer, and a persuasive speaker, but I learned to OVER-estimate the effect that I could have in that regard. When I learned of my wife's affair, and in the face of her continued deceit towards me, I still felt like "If I could ONLY say JUST THE RIGHT COMBINATION of words to her . . ." or "send her JUST the perfect song lyrics," etc. . . . she'd change her mind and come back to me.
And, as you state, similarly my OWN improvements couldn't come from any grand proclamations about how I'd improved -- I had to SHOW her.
The power is in the ACTION . . . not the WORDS.
Puppy
This is the letter W wrote to me and gave me to drop the D bomb.
Dan,
This is a difficult letter to write, but I have a hard time putting things/feelings into words. I do not want to play the blame game. We both know how we got to where we are and the roles we played in it. You have apologized and I know I should have been more assertive in expressing my needs. I continue to struggle with this.
If I start from the beginning, I met you at a time in my life when I was hurt over a prior relationship and had suffered the shocking loss of my Dad. I had fun with you and you filled a void I had at that time. I knew I was not crazy infatuated - "head over heels", but it didn't matter. I wanted someone to spend time with, have fun with and who liked me. I was ok with all the sex in the beginning, because, unfortunately, I equated that with self-worth.
There were concerns I had from the beginning, such as your lack of patience, you being easily irritated by little things, you being unhappy/angry when you didn't have weed. I tried to ignore them and tried to make you happy. I decided the good outweighed the bad.
When I left our first house for a few days, before we were married, it wasn't just because of you marijuana use and lack of help running a household, but also because I had serious doubts about the depth of my feelings for you. I wondered if my feelings were deep enough to sustain a relationship for a lifetime. When I saw how devastated you were, I could not take it. I never want to feel responsible for making anyone so miserable. I came back because I wanted to make you happy and thought I loved you enough to be able to work it out. You apologized, and for a little bit, helped more, etc.
Before the summer of 1995, I thought about where our relationship was headed. I felt we invested a lot of time together and had been building a life and a home together. I decided I wanted children and felt that since you loved me, I could have that life with you. I was happy to be marrying you (she proposed to me in summer '95) but still had a few doubts about the way our relationship was and hoped I could remain happy and content with my decision. I felt very secure when we were married. I felt we could be together forever. I really felt I made the right choice. I trusted you, you were a good provider, smart, fun, etc.
I don't want to belabor all of what went wrong and I know you have heard it all before. I know it makes you angry when some things are brought-up repeatedly. Again, I don't want to blame anymore. I am only trying to sort out, in my own mind, when things started to go wrong. I don't want to go on and on about our sex life and how demanding it was to me, but just tell you how it made me feel and why. I felt I wasn't worthy of your help during the day, patience, listening, talking, doing things as a family, but at night, I was always good enough to have sex with. It didn't matter if I had an infection, stomach ache, headache, whatever, it was still expected. At one point I told you the Dr. said my frequent infections could be caused by too much sex. It didn't seem to matter to you. This added to my poor self esteem issues. Obviously, I felt I didn't matter.
I first discovered the porn thing when I was pregnant. this was another blow to my self esteem, especially knowing I'm pregnant and big, and still giving it up (sex) on a regular basis, no matter how uncomfortable. Even still, you had to be doing the porn. I had a lot of anger and hurt over that. Since I addressed this with you several time, and you did not care enough to stop it, this turned to disgust and anger. It is hard to have sex with someone when you are wondering what they saw on the internet and add to that the resentment of being tired and overwhelmed by all of my responsibilities at home.
I feel blessed and so lucky that we have two healthy, wonderful children. I know you love them, also. My feelings changed for you after watching your relationship with them. When you were nice to them and acted like you cared, did things with them, etc. it made me feel closer to you and more receptive to your sexual advances. I have a lot of hurt and frustration regarding this area of our lives. I won't go into more details, but cannot begin to express my disappointment and sadness I have felt over the years regarding your lack of attachment and interest in the kids.
Now to the present day. I know you have made so many significant changes, at my request. You've helped me more, backed-off on the sex, spent more time with the kids. I appreciate that. I have forgiven you and I hope you can forgive me for things I've done and said over the years that may have hurt you.
As I've told you, I've been unhappy with the way things have been for many years. Unfortunately, that has taken a toll on my feelings for you. I've told you this, but it must be so hard for you to understand since you don't feel the same way. I care about you as a person and the father of my children. I cannot be the wife you want me to be, I do not love you like that and haven't for quite a while. It doesn't matter how that happened, it just is. If I could change it, I would. I've struggled with these feelings for a long time and it is not fair to you or me. I do not want any intimacy with you and I know that is not going to change. I'm tired of feeling this way and can't go on continuing in this marriage just to try to please you. I don't deserve this and neither do you.
I have started the paperwork for a divorce. I can't even imagine how difficult this will be, but I also can't imagine continuing to live my life this way.
I hope you will think of the kids and their well-being from this day forward. Please, their entire future depends on how we handle this. I know you are really hurting right now - so am I. Don't let our hurt be at the children's expense. We must consider the kids every step of the way and also respect each other and the years we had. Neither of us are bad people. I am begging you to keep them your focus and how we are all going to get through this. I will always be there for you, just can't be there for you in the capacity you want me to.
When we are ready, we can discuss more details as it related to the kids, living arrangements, telling the kids, sleeping arrangements, vacation, etc.
Brenda
Just broke down crying while typing the end of that letter.
Anyone care to share any thoughts about my chances considering what was said in this letter?
Thanks to all for your help and support.
Wow!! Great letter. You are very lucky to have a partner willing to explain exactly what is bothering her. Most WAS dont take the time to explain and just shut down. This is your playbook. You know what needs to be done. You know what the issues are so use this.
The process of divorce can go as fast and as slow as you both want. You obviously dont want this so dont rush and make any emotional decisions. Follow the great advice you have been getting from the veterans on this blog.
My advice: Stop your thinking??? It's not working. Accept where she's at whether you agree or not. It doesnt matter. Remember "she doesn't know what she doesn't know" which means that she doesnt know how her feelings could change if you "actually" become the person you are promising to become. Most importantly become this person for YOU and YOUR kids not her or she will see right through it.
Next follow this list that has been pass around this site over the years by the true vets.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Last but not least, RELAX, BREATH, take care of yourself
PMA
Wow!! Great letter. You are very lucky to have a partner willing to explain exactly what is bothering her. Most WAS dont take the time to explain and just shut down. This is your playbook. You know what needs to be done. You know what the issues are so use this.
PMA, I respectfully disagree. If Dan's wife were uninvolved with anyone else, I'd agree with you, but a person in an active affair will almost always re-write marital history, gaslight, spin and outright LIE to try to justify their behavior, and their current, hormone-induced, mindset.
One shouldn't take the writings of an addict at face-value, and use them as a roadmap to self-improvement.
I always try to encourage betrayed spouses to take a good, hard, honest look at THEMSELVES, and also their spouse's
pre-affair marital complaints, and use this time for some serious introspection about what GENUINELY needs to be improved in their relationship style, communication, habits, etc.
For the record, I do think his wife's letter contains plenty of the former AND of the latter, but I just wanted to throw that caveat out there. I've seen way too many left-behind spouses, in their beaten-down state, take everything their cheating spouses said at face value and doubt their own very core.
Puppy
Oh. I missed the part about the OM. That does change things. I only read the last few pages of posts. Need to read from the beginning. Spouses involved with OPP are a different "beast" altogher. They will SAY and DO anything to JUSTIFY their BEHAVIOR.
I agree with acting civil and cutting her off when she starts justifying her actions by saying all the "bad" things you have done. A simply reply of "Ive already apologized before" will take care of that.
PMA
Greek, you asked "Have you moved out? Please say no.", but I see that you and coach were separated for 3 months. Did that give you the space and time to "find yourself"? Did the separation help you? Only 3 months. I wish it were that easy. Do I need to leave for a while to give her "space"?
Last resort technique is just a phrase. right?
I think its that last I love you, you say, before you realize you don't.
what does it mean to "Get A Life" or "You need to Get a Life?"
Subjective question.
Greek, you asked "Have you moved out? Please say no.", but I see that you and coach were separated for 3 months. Did that give you the space and time to "find yourself"? Did the separation help you? Only 3 months. I wish it were that easy. Do I need to leave for a while to give her "space"?
Dan,
In my experience, "I need space" almost ALWAYS means "I want space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered." Very, VERY few, rare individuals (less than 5%?) really use the time and space to remain detached from BOTH their spouse, and their OM/OW, and do honest introspection.
Puppy
In my experience, "I need space" almost ALWAYS means "I want space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered." Very, VERY few, rare individuals (less than 5%?) really use the time and space to remain detached from BOTH their spouse, and their OM/OW, and do honest introspection.
Couldn't agree more.
Last resort technique is just a phrase. right?
I think its that last I love you, you say, before you realize you don't.
Last Resort Technique is basically what PMA outlined so nicely above. Stop pursuing at all. Stop doing all the things listed. No gifts, no flowers, no I love yous......
Get a life means different things for different people, but it could be to do more things with your kids, join a softball team and play, go out with friends without your spouse, play golf. I'm going to a music festival that we regularly attended together with other friends. Get your own life, apart from your spouse.
Going to be very hard for me to do. I spent almost all of my time the last couple of years with my spouse because I wanted to. Apparently, she didn't and it drove her over the edge.
Thanks Dan.
I really like this :
I always try to encourage betrayed spouses to take a good, hard, honest look at THEMSELVES, and also their spouse's pre-affair marital complaints, and use this time for some serious introspection about what GENUINELY needs to be improved in their relationship style, communication, habits, etc.
That is good advice. I have tried to do that and I really think I have done 180's in all her areas of complaints, but it didn't matter anyway. She said if I had started doing these things 5 years earlier, she knows we would be in a different place, but it is too late. I think her mind was made-up from the beginning, even though she says it wasn't.
I also wanted to work on marriage building exercises in the beginning. Goals, expectations, communication, needs expression, but she said she didn't need to, they wouldn't help, they didn't apply to her situation, etc., etc. She says her feelings for me are gone and she "knows" that will never change. She said, "ILYBINILWY, you know?" I said, no, I don't understand that. "I don't love you like I should love my husband." Ok?
We've never really communicating effectively on a deep, emotional level. Then she kept everything bottled-up and built-up resentments that she can't get over. She didn't communicate what she needed well enough for me to understand. When I asked why she didn't ask me for help, she said "I shouldn't have to. I told you I was overwhelmed. I don't know how you could let someone you love get so run down. I don't think you ever really loved me or you wouldn't have let that happen."
In my mind, I was very happy, but she says I was a grump and emotionally unavailable. I tried to make sure my needs were met, but I know now that didn't do enough to make sure her needs were met. That should have been my focus. I gave her what I thought she wanted, but that turned out to be what I wanted, not what she wanted. I assumed we wanted the same things, but apparently that wasn't the case.
She also has her own self-esteem and unrealistic expectations issues to deal with. There is nothing more that I can do except to honor her wishes and let her make her own choices.
She is being so nice to me (as usual) that I am having a hard time trying to figure out the balance between showing her support and "being gone". On the one hand, since we had so many communication issues, I want to show her that I can communicate with her, be a better dad and better husband. On the other hand, I need to be gone to show her I am strong and able to move on without her.
This is really tough.
I'm going out on Friday night to a music festival in Milwaukee, about 45 min away from home. Was debating staying fairly sober and coming home or staying at a friends overnight.
I think she is trying to plan to do something with just her and the kids this week-end, but she hasn't told me anything yet. I think she wants to surprise me and just tell me that she and the kids will be gone once it is planned. Trying to stick it to me?
I got an appointment to see a very good childrens counselor next week, so we will be waiting until after that appointment to tell the kids it is offical, but they know something is up. I was hoping she would snap out of this and we would never have to tell them anything other than we weren't getting along for a while, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.
Here is an e-mail exchange we had this morning. Did I play this right?
W - I meant to ask you this a.m. if you told the neighbors what is going on? I just want to know so I'm not playing dumb if Michele says anything.
Me - I asked Michelle if you had been talking to her at all because I heard you had told her that you didn't love me like you feel you should a while back.
She said the two of you hadn't been talking hardly at all lately, but that you used to talk all the time. She said something about you changed when you started losing all the weight and she feels like she has lost a friend.
I didn't get into all the details with them, but I did tell them that you aren't happy and are about done with me. Michelle said maybe it won't get to that, but I said I doubted it, because your mind is made up.
W - I was typically the one to make the effort and call her to see how things were going. I still do at times, but she typically does not do the same. I would hardly call what we had "talking all the time" She quit selling Avon too, so that made a difference. The fact is she had a baby and I never hang with the neighbors in cold weather months.
Anyway, not sure why I feel the need to defend myself. The weight stuff is ridiculous. I'm sick of defending my weight loss to people. You see me eat. I can chow down with the best of them. I have read on-line, (oh no here I go again) that stress causes people to release certain chemicals in their body that increases metabolism, whatever, who knows. I've probably acted somewhat depressed if anything, because of what we are and have been going through. Maybe I'm better off keeping to myself.
Me - You don't need to defend yourself to anyone. You need to do whatever you need to do to make yourself happy. I think Michelle just misses talking with you, regardless of the reasons or who initiated contact. You are a great person to talk with. You are kind, caring and show empathy for people. It's fun to hang out with you, because you are a great person! You are right, it should be up to both people to maintain the relationship, but it doesn't always happen that way. It's like with Rick. If we talk with him it is because we call him. I'm not sure he has ever initiated contact in the 11 years he has been gone. Lots of people are like that. Me too at times. I don't think Michelle probably even thinks about it. She is busy and so are you. I haven't talked to Steve Karmas again in years either. It happens.
I'm sure that the stress of the situation has contributed to your weight loss. I know that it has contributed to mine too. I'm sorry you are under so much stress. I had hoped things were settling down for you a bit, but I guess not, and I really don't know what to do to help you relax either. Michelle did say you are awfully thin, but really she just thought the reduction in contact coincided with the timing of the weight loss, she wasn't commenting on it as a problem. It's probably just a coincidence. Maybe that is when she stopped selling Avon too.
I hope the rest of your day goes better. See you tonight.
Does that work?
Thanks to all who post here for your support!!
Me - You don't need to defend yourself to anyone. You need to do whatever you need to do to make yourself happy. I think Michelle just misses talking with you, regardless of the reasons or who initiated contact. You are a great person to talk with. You are kind, caring and show empathy for people. It's fun to hang out with you, because you are a great person!
OK, let me be the first to say it:
"Blcccccch!" 
((((spew))))
Congratulations -- you just put your stamp of approval to her affair.
Really? I must be an idiot!
She says I have beaten down her self-esteem with all of the things I have done to her, so I thought I was trying to help her build it back-up again. I thought it would make her like me again.
Greek said that words of affirmation would be good. I've never been good at doing that, so I thought this was a good opportunity.
She thinks everyone in the neighborhood is judging her and I have slanted them all against her, but I haven't and they aren't.
I really don't think she is still having the EA, but I may just be naieve.
It would have been better to have said "I'm sorry you had to hear all of that. This has been very difficult on all of us."
and leave it at that.
You need to do whatever you need to do to make yourself happy.
That is EXACTLY the kind of selfish, entitled mindset that leads people to have affairs in the first place! And you just told her it was OK.
I should have talked to you first. Yours is much better.
I have to stop being so open with everyone, but that is my nature. I tell everyone what is on my mind. I think you see it here on the boards too, no?
I have to learn to be more mysterious........
Dan,
I'm far from being a pro here and you are getting GREAT advice from some of the best people on this site. I am, however, dealing with some of the same things that you are. It's all still very fresh to me and maybe that will help you a little bit.
You must let her go, let her be however she is going to be. The time for communication, words of affirmation, all of that will be when and if she decides to commit to rebuilding your M. All of it that you do now will be considered by her as pursuing. You must stop immediately!
We all have trouble stopping the pursuing now that we "get it". It won't matter at this point. As you have read, your best bet is to show her, don't tell her, but show her you have accepted what she has told you, you agree with it, and you are okay with it all. Move on, do your own thing. Be happy about it at least on the outside. Have fun with the kids and keep busy. Do not let her see you pout and sulk any longer. Right now, you are the happy go lucky Dan that you used to be. Even though you are scared about what might happen to your family, you are the happiest person in town. Only let her see that side of you.
I will admit that I have had my ups and downs with the same things that you are. Since I started going our with friends, joined a band again and am just having fun, my W has complained about me being gone and not being home with the kids. At first, she succeeded in making me feel guilty. But if you stop and think about it, she doesn't want you around, doesn't want to do anything together anyway, so why should she care? Let her wonder why you are happy and not devastated about the sitch like you were before. And if she asks, just tell her you forgot how much you enjoyed spending time with friends, or just you and the kids or whatever.
We all come to understand that this is for our well being first and foremost. If the WAS comes back, that is the immediate goal. The ultimate goal is to improve yourself, fix your faults and shortcomings and realize you will be okay even if she doesn't come back.
As you already know, it ain't easy. But it can be done and is done every day.
Wife just called me at work to tell me about all the trouble she is having with the kids. Had to relay all the little details to me. Is this a good sign?? I know I probably shouldn't have answered the phone at all, right?
I have been reading all the posts by DESPERATE FOR HOPE AND UNDERSTANDING and his sitch seems very similar to mine at the moment, except that my wife has already filed for D.
Would this advice from Steve McQueen be good in my sitch too? I think I could do this.
"Just work on being good parents. Be friends and just see how things go."
You know you can love someone without expectation and you can show love without it being returned. That is where one person can save a relationship when the other doesnt want to.
Would this advice from Steve McQueen be good in my sitch too? I think I could do this.
"Just work on being good parents. Be friends and just see how things go."
If I were in your shoes, I would heed the advice Puppy Dog Tails is giving you and follow it.
Thanks for the advice guys/gals. Sorry it seems to be so hard for me to learn it. I am usually a fairly quick study, but I struggle with the emotional side of things. One of my W's hang-ups too.
I'm not sure why, but an erie sort of calm has come over me for some reason.
I started teaching my kids how to play "Risk" last night. They seemed to really enjoy it. Asked W if she wanted to play, but she said no. She doesn't like those types of games. We used to play a lot of scrabble when we were younger, but when we had the kids we just didn't have the time and she was usually too tired. She just sat on the couch and watched TV last night. Prison shows. She is a Probation and Parole Officer for the State of WI, so she is really into all of that stuff.
Kids seemed to have a great time playing and when we were done, my son thanked me for teaching them. We may play again tonight now that they have gotten a feel for it.
I'm working on something that I'd like you guys to review for me before I do anything, but I have to get some work done first today. I think I am going to take the day off tomorrow so I can rest-up before the music festival (Summerfest-The world's biggest gig!). Been lots of restless nights this past week thinking about things my W has told me about myself.
Have a great day everyone and I will try to catch-up with you a bit later.
Ok, so you all know that my wife has considered me to be selfish in the past and I have continued to defend myself in this area based on all the hard work that I felt I did to get our family into a comfortable position. Last week-end, one of you told me to "Stop defending myself and validate her feelings." I felt that was very good advice and I have been thinking about this a lot over many sleepless nights. On Sunday night, I barely slept at all. She knows this and asked me why, but I only said, why do you think?
I think that you guys may be against this, but I am thinking that I need to accept her criticisms and validate her feelings in this area before we can make ANY progress. I have only been DBing for a couple of weeks yet, but I feel that this is something I have to do. In my situation, I'm not sure what to look for as positive progress, since we are pretty much always nice to each other, so not fighting isn't progress. What should I consider progress? Maybe a hug or kiss? Or putting a ring back on? Since D is filed, I'm not sure the ring thing will happen.
Anyway, here is the final apology I am thinking about giving her. Let me know what you guys think. No offense to the rest of you, but Puppy, you have been great for me and I would also appreciate hearing from a woman on this one too. How about it Sandi or Greek? Sorry to beg, but God knows I need the help right now.
Here it is:
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about what you said about me being selfish and I want you to know that I accept it and that I agree with you. When you took the kids to the movies, or to the beach and you asked me if I wanted to go, I said “no”, because those were things that I didn’t enjoy doing, but that shouldn’t have mattered. It was very selfish of me not to be there with you and the kids and I am sure that I missed a lot of good interaction time with them and with you. I should have accepted your invitations and been acting more like a family. I wish I would have gone with you and if I had understood how much it was hurting you and my relationship with the kids, I probably would have gone along. I really regret not participating in those events, but I am going to learn from those mistakes and work to make my relationship with the kids the best it can be. Going forward, I really am going to need them as much as they are going to need me.
Regarding our intimate interactions, I am sorry that what I did made you feel like an object, or possession or piece of meat. That was certainly not my intent, but hearing what you have said and looking back on my actions, I can understand how I caused you to feel that way. No one should have to live that way or feel like that, especially with their spouse. I was being selfish in taking care of my own needs, when I should have been focusing on your needs and making sure they were met and you were happy. That is my job as a husband and I am sorry that I failed you in that regard. I would like to make this better for both of us, but I understand your reluctance to put up with me any longer.
I want to thank you for making me realize these things and to know that I am working very hard to improve myself in these areas, whether that ends up being for us or just because it is the right thing for me to do as a person to improve myself and my future relationships. If, by chance, you change your mind and decide that you do want to try to save our marriage, I think you’ll find me ready and willing to work on all issues – even mine.
I'm against this approach.
- too supplicating
- too many WORDS, instead of ACTION: SHOW her your changes, don't TELL her about them
- legally, I wouldn't want to put confessions of guilt/fault in writing; if I were going to do them, I would do them verbally
If you want her to know you "get it," and are no longer selfish, then SHOW her.
Puppy
I would do this verbally. I don't think there are any legal implications as I live in a no fault state. I thnk she thinks I still don't "get it" and I haven't told her that I do. I can "show her" with my interactions with the kids, but for us intimately, there is no intimacy. How do I "show her" that I understand how badly I hurt her in the past if she is sleeping in the other room and wants nothing to do with me?
Sorry, but I have created a mess here.
Puppy beat me to the punch. Exactly what I was thinking as I read your post. This is a mistake many early DBer's make, including myself. Too much talk, too much promise of future action. If you see areas you were deficient in, you don't need her approval to start working on them, just do it. Let her notice the changes, and even if she comments on them, just act casual about them. You're probably thinking "How will she see it if we're apart?" You have kids together, your lives are intertwined in many ways. She'll have plenty of opportunity to see your changes, and if you just start doing them without saying anything, she'll see them as sincere, rather than manipulation. By the way, the changes will only stick if they are sincere.
Also, don't be so quick to take blame. Validate her feelings, sure, but just leave it at that. I'm amazed how my W eventually pointed the finger at herself just as much as at me for our difficulties. From what you've written, you were a basically good husband and father who chose to spend some time alone sometimes rather than go with his family to do things. Hardly a capital offense. The WAW mind vicously tries to dig up and use these "past offenses" as justification for their behavior. Don't blindly buy into it. I did, and I took way too much blame. Thankfully, my W didn't really buy it from me either, and now jokes about some of these supposedly horrible things I did in the past.
I don't think you should have this "talk" with her at all, verbally or otherwise. If you do, and then start to show changes, she's much more apt to see it as manipulation. You want to SHOW her you've "seen the light". Talk is cheap.
"Here kitty, kitty, kitty ,kitty. psspsppssspsppspssspspsssspsps. Come on kitty, I won't hurt you. Come on kitty. pspspspspspsssssspppspspspspspspspsps."
Don't chase cats.
Make the cat interested in you. Be catnip.
Great advice guys. Thanks for setting me straight. I will not give this apology.
Any advice on what I could consider "progress" or what goals to set in this situation? We are generally nice to each other and don't fight, so not fighting is not progress.
Any phusical contact like a touch, hug or kiss from her? That doesn't seem reasonable to expect at the moment. How do I know if this is working? WAit for her to ask aobut the R?
I just feel like I am spinning wheels.
Thanks!
make it a goal for her to:
- give you a hug
- go to lunch with you
- ????????
what action do you take to reach your goal?
Not sure. I try to make her feel better about me by doing things with the kids. She will appreciate that. Continue my 180's in helping around the house and not pursuing her at all. Be nice. Converse a little with her when she initiates a conversation.
I don't ask her to lunch, but am available if she asks. Usually only on weekends or off days becuase we work 1hr apart. She is off 2 & 1/2 days per week in the summer, so theoretically, she could bring the kids and have lunch together close to my work. I don't think that is going to happen.
I don't initiate any contact with her, but let her own tension build.
I don't know what else.
I just got an e-mail from EAOM's wife. Their situation is totally nuts right now. She thinks they are still talking. They talk about that situation in their counseling sessions and he says he doesn't have to chase my W because "she'll take him whenever he is ready" and other crap like that. Probably just trying to get her goat, but I just don't know what to think.
If that is the case, I need to get more evidence, but really don't know how at this point. She guards her phone with her life. I used to check it in the middle of the night, but everything was almost always deleted. I did open her last phone bill and there were no calls, but I can't see any texting info. Now that she is in the other room, I am afraid to go in there at night and wake her up trying to get the phone. Plus, she can still call from her work. This guy was introduced to her by her best friend, who she works with. This lady is a real gossip hound and calls my W aboyt 4 times a day. It is f-ing ridiculous. Me and the kids call her Dee-de-dee, like Carlos Mencia!
What a mess.
If that is the case, I need to get more evidence, but really don't know how at this point. She guards her phone with her life. I used to check it in the middle of the night, but everything was almost always deleted. I did open her last phone bill and there were no calls, but I can't see any texting info. Now that she is in the other room, I am afraid to go in there at night and wake her up trying to get the phone.
Dan, I've re-posted this story many times, but perhaps you haven't seen it yet:
“A Wayward Will Eventually Let Their Guard Down”:
My wife also kept wiping her cellphone -- call log and TMs -- a couple of times every day, and also kept the phone with her (or near her) 24/7, it seemed.
I also noticed, that NOW THAT SHE FELT CONFIDENT THAT SHE HAD IT WITH HER ALL THE TIME, she no longer locked it.
So I began to study her habits/patterns every day. And I noticed that every morning, she woke up before I did, came downstairs, put on her shoes, and went outside to get the paper (we were sleeping in separate rooms at this time, me in the master BR and her upstairs in our daughter's old room).
I also noticed (made a beeline/"dry run" up there one morning when she went out to get the paper) that she kept her phone up there after she woke up, near her "bed" (a sleeping bag on the furniture-less room floor), charging, and UNLOCKED.
I quickly set the phone back down where I had found it, and slipped downstairs back into my bed. But I had my plan.
I went online and got a .pdf of her cellphone instructions, as I knew I wouldn't have much time with it, and would have to use that time quickly and wisely, and couldn't afford to be stumbling around with the buttons (I was totally unfamiliar with her phone). I studied the owners manual until I knew the navigation for call log and especially TEXT MESSAGES, frontwards and back. I waited for my opportunity, making sure to begin CLOSING MY BEDROOM DOOR EVERY NIGHT WHEN I WENT TO BED (I hadn't previously; had left it open a crack).
This I did for a week or two.
One morning, after a night where she had gone to bed early and I KNEW she was text messaging up there in her room, I pretended like I was asleep, and waited for her to go out and get the newspaper. When she did, I bolted up out of bed, left my bedroom, and shut the door the way behind me. I ran upstairs, went into her bedroom, and quietly closed the door behind me. There, next to her sleeping bag, was her cellphone, unlocked.
I spent the next 5 minutes looking at more than I needed to know, or that I wanted to see. Lots of "ILYs" and "no one does it for me like you do's" (this after she claimed the affair was over, and they were "just friends" again). Made sure to check both a few Sent Items and a few INbox, to make sure this wasn't a one-sided affair.
It wasn't.
I laid the phone back down, and came out of her bedroom and into our upstairs game room, and just went on the family computer for about 10-15 minutes. She was now downstairs, reading the newspaper at the kitchen table, just as she always did.
After awhile, I came down the stairs, and gave her a cheery "G'morning!"
She looked like she had seen a ghost, and the poor girl probably wet herself.
"W-w-what are you doing up?" she stammered.
"Oh, I couldn't sleep -- just went on the computer for a little bit," I answered.
"What's wrong with your laptop?" she asked, worried. (I rarely used the family computer upstairs)
"Oh, nothing," I purposely said briefly. "I"m gonna get in the shower; you need anything out of there?"
"No," she said, obviously worried shitless.
I knew all I needed to know, and it was GOOD that I knew it, because no more than 4-5 days later, she tried to gaslight me about not having any feelings for this OM. At that point, I said "STOP IT -- we both know you're lying to me right now. I saw your text messages the other morning, so you can sell that to someone who's buying."
'Nads, there is nothing wrong with protecting yourself, and your family. In fact, I would claim that you have a moral imperative to do so.
Puppy
When she seeks out your company, that's progress.
When she starts to comment on differences in you, completely unsolicited, that's progress. Act casual about them.
When she flirts with you at all, that's progress. Flirt back, a little, but be coy.
When she starts asking you questions about your life, particularly digging for info about you possibly dating, that's progress. Be vague in response, regardless of the truth.
When she starts to own her part, that's progress. Tell her how much you appreciate her saying it, and own some fault of yours in response. These are healing moments.
When she starts making physical contact with you, completely unsolicited, that's progess. Do not reciprocate at all at first.
When she invites you to do things with her alone, or with her and the kids, that's progress. Accept some, but not all of her invitations.
When she starts acting annoyed or hurt that you're doing fun things with the kids without her, that's progress.
If you are working on yourself, you are not spinning your wheels. If you are trying to "fix" your R, you are spinning your wheels, until she wants to "fix" it too.
When she seeks out your company, that's progress.
When she starts to comment on differences in you, completely unsolicited, that's progress. Act casual about them.
When she flirts with you at all, that's progress. Flirt back, a little, but be coy.
When she starts asking you questions about your life, particularly digging for info about you possibly dating, that's progress. Be vague in response, regardless of the truth.
When she starts to own her part, that's progress. Tell her how much you appreciate her saying it, and own some fault of yours in response. These are healing moments.
When she starts making physical contact with you, completely unsolicited, that's progess. Do not reciprocate at all at first.
When she invites you to do things with her alone, or with her and the kids, that's progress. Accept some, but not all of her invitations.
When she starts acting annoyed or hurt that you're doing fun things with the kids without her, that's progress.
If you are working on yourself, you are not spinning your wheels. If you are trying to "fix" your R, you are spinning your wheels, until she wants to "fix" it too.
Somebody "sticky" that sucka!!
This one's going in my archives.
Puppy
Thanks a bunch guys. You are a great help and inspiration.
Originally Posted By: DanF
Something else. Being a man, but can that work without me apologizing in terms of her biggest issue? My selfishness.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Yes, you can. Own it, verbally -- ONCE. Maybe twice. And then just LIVE OUT YOUR CHANGES BEFORE HER, never commenting on it again, other than a "thank you" if SHE notices it, and compliments you on it.
***END OF HIJACK***
Puppy
Sorry puppy, but now I am confused again.
I thought everyone told me not to apologize.
Are you saying above that I should tell her these things (apologize), just once, and verbally, to validate her feelings and let her know that I get it now?
Sorry to be so dense.
I thought you already did? Several times?
Did for losts of things, but always defended myself as not being selfish, but was too busy with other responsibilities. In the intimacy area, I told her I thought she was ok with it since she never said "no" and enjoying it since she got "O" 80% of the time. She said that her body just responded to what I was doing to it. I never apologized for making her feel like "a piece of meat". That makes me feel sick. I was giving her what I wanted and what I thought she wanted, but it wasn't what she needed. It was more sex than making love.
I'll have to think about this some more, and see what the others say, Dan. It smacks of "re-writing of marital history"/blameshifting a bit to me.
Puppy
I'll have to think about this some more, and see what the others say, Dan. It smacks of "re-writing of marital history"/blameshifting a bit to me.
Do you mean it is possible Dan didn't ALWAYS ____________, and NEVER __________, and make her feel ______________?
Thanks puppy. I'll try to give yo a little more background.
I did try to initiate sex with her A LOT. Almost every day and sometimes at night and then in the morning again. I did pursue her even when she had a yeast infection and it hurt her some. But she never turned me down. I asked her why and she said it wasn't that easy with the pressure I was putting on her. I would "make the moves" and she would give in. She was trying to make me happy. I told her that lifting her butt off the bed so I could slide off her panties was the same as saying yes. I guess I apologized, but I always tried to defend my actions in the past. I didn't realize how hurt she really was.
I don't know. Even after she blew-up in Jan, when she said she probably wouldn't want to have sex for a while, we still did it a number of times per week at first. She even initiated a couple times and then said she just did it for me, wanted to get it over with and got nothing out of it. Except orgasms, I say. One night she got 2 and then went out to the garage for her usual smoke. I was in the bathroom when she came back so she found me and said "Thanks for the great "O", two of them." I told her that is why I was confused. A few days later it was the same story, did it for you, resent you for it, etc.
Then, in May, after her planned meeting with OM (with friends in tow, of course)fell apart, I came home from a 2 night camping trip with our S and had to leave shortly on a 2 night business trip, I aksed her if she wanted to "go upstairs" for a few minutes before I had to leave. She said, "No, but I will do it if you want me to." I turned that down because that had backfired on me once before and she continues to hold that over my head too. I asked her later if she would have resented me if I would have taken her up and she said "probably". I said, "You can't keep doing this. It is not fair to agree and then hold it against me. Why would you do that?" Her reply was "I don't know. Hoping you would turn me down."
The other time this happened, I was still in bed in the am and asked her to come back for some fun. She said there wasn't one ounce of her that wanted to do it with me at the moment, but if I wanted to, she would. What do you think I did? Later she drug this back out and said "Who does that?" So I said, "Who comes over and gets back in bed? Why didn't you just walk away?" I still don't know why.
Our relationship has been a lot of sex since the very beginning. I always thought we had a great time. After the kids, it got tougher on her, I am sure, but still rarely said no, and when she did, it was no.
I don't get it.......
I'll have to think about this some more, and see what the others say, Dan. It smacks of "re-writing of marital history"/blameshifting a bit to me.
Do you mean it is possible Dan didn't ALWAYS ____________, and NEVER __________, and make her feel ______________?
I must be slow. I'm not sure how to fill in the blanks.
Dan, when they re-write marital history, there's stuff in there about how you were mostly this <negative> way, never <did this positive thing or two> and how you made her feel <somehow bad that justifies treating you like crap>.
That is unless you really keep asking for it, and then you get the laundry list and the 'I don't think I ever loved you' kind of crap.
Dan, I think you need a woman's perspective on this. I don't see this as rewriting or blameshifting. I think she's finally being honest with you about something she's wanted to tell you for a long time. I can totally see your W's point of view on the intimacy issue. She DID tell you no. You didn't listen to her and continued to pursue. She just caved because it was easier than fighting you off until you gave up.
Re-read your own post. Can't you see how wrong you were in some of those examples? She said there wasn't one ounce of her that wanted to do it with me at the moment, but if I wanted to, she would. Why in the world would you pursue her after she said that? It's not a strong no, but it's a no. Having sex while she has an infection? That's all about you not her. That tells her in a very intimate way that her needs or even her health are not important to you.
As women we are programmed to please our H's, meet their needs. She should have talked to you about how she was feeling but it doesn't sound like you were listening very well then. Not to mention, it's really hard to talk to someone about something so intimate when you already feel like you're not being heard.
You're right. I do appreciate a woman's perspective on this and I do agree with you and with her also. I have been an insensitive jerk in this area and I am more than ashamed of my actions. I just didn't see it while it was happening. You are right, it was easier for her this way, but she also should have said no more forcefully or just walked away when she had the chance instead of coming back to bed. I do understand that I should have listened better and I want her to know that I understand that now.
So the question at hand is whether or not to apologize for this since I have always defended myself against her claims of my selfishness, although I have apologized for everything else, I think. I spent 5 full months giving this everything that I had and I don't feel like she has really tried at all. I have been a doormat. So I am only 2 weeks in to DBing and now what do I do? Apologize yet again, or remain strong and detached. I can't stand the thought of losing her, but am getting stronger about moving on without her if I have to. All the guys have said "don't do it." I am waiting to hear from puppy again after he has some time to think about it. Part of me thinks this apology might melt her heart and part of me thinks she just doesn't care anymore and I can hardly blame her.
She/we have a really good life set-up and this D will be a major set-back for us all. I do have lots of good redeeming qualities too, but they may not be enough to offset my actions here. I just want this to work so badly. I want to do what works, not what I think is right.
What to do............
How are you doing with the porn thing since you aren't having sex with your W? How long has it been since you had sex?
Dan, I think you need a woman's perspective on this. I don't see this as rewriting or blameshifting. I think she's finally being honest with you about something she's wanted to tell you for a long time. I can totally see your W's point of view on the intimacy issue. She DID tell you no. You didn't listen to her and continued to pursue. She just caved because it was easier than fighting you off until you gave up.
Re-read your own post. Can't you see how wrong you were in some of those examples? She said there wasn't one ounce of her that wanted to do it with me at the moment, but if I wanted to, she would. Why in the world would you pursue her after she said that? It's not a strong no, but it's a no. Having sex while she has an infection? That's all about you not her. That tells her in a very intimate way that her needs or even her health are not important to you.
As women we are programmed to please our H's, meet their needs. She should have talked to you about how she was feeling but it doesn't sound like you were listening very well then. Not to mention, it's really hard to talk to someone about something so intimate when you already feel like you're not being heard.
Gosh...everything ^^^^ Bluestar said! Very good insight for Dan!
Greek
How are you doing with the porn thing since you aren't having sex with your W? How long has it been since you had sex?
It's been at least 3 months and only very sporadic before that. I was doing it some, much less than before, but with no sex, it was tough. I tried to go to bed when she did and then just wanted to cuddle, but she didn't want any of that either. I was smothering her.
About a month ago I started taking the generic version of Paxil and have pretty much lost all interest, so I am doing better. This habit goes all the way back to my teens. I thought it was ok to be taking care of myself, especially if she didn't want to.
I am awful.
I'm a bit confused. Are you taking Paxil for depression? Are you, or have you ever been in sex therapy? IDK, but you say she would have sex and never say "no", but some places I read in your thread points to the fact you knew she didn't want to at times. Once you said she "rarely" said no.
I know what it is like to have sex when it is terribly painful. When the man continues to have sex even though she has told him how she feels....it can cause a lot of very negative feelings toward him. I also know that many women are taught that they are suppose to submit to the H wanting sex. If she does this for a span of time without the man becoming more considerate....well, it could close her heart to him.
If I understand it, you still do not see yourself as being selfish b/c you worked hard to give your family a nice life. A lot of that reasoning is due to the differences in how men & women think. Your W saw you being extremly selfish when you took care of your sexual needs regardless of how it made her feel. This was a huge blow to her already low self-esteem.
The fact that her body responded 80% of the time is no way to measure her feelings about having sex with you. What if you could only perform or finish 80% of the time?
It just seems that you were relentless in having sex 3 or more times a day. Until you can understand how she must have felt (at least as best you can), I don't think you will be able to see that as being an act of selfishness. But it is whenever she was run down, over-whelmed or whatever. That is what her main objection is, or so it appears to me. If you can't agree with how she saw it, then that will keep the two of you apart. A lot more than her having an EA.
I'm not supporting her having an EA.....but I understand it.
But she never turned me down. I asked her why and she said it wasn't that easy with the pressure I was putting on her.
You haven't said it, but it sounds to me like you are the type to sulk if she does say no. It's a form of emotional bullying. Which means that over time I'm sure it seemed easier to give in than to have you acting like a sulky baby if she didn't. Doesn't mean she wanted to, and "saying no more forcefully" wouldn't have made a difference.
I am taking paxil because I was extremely depressed about this situation and the thought I losing my family. I was very distressed and would get panicky every time W said she didn't love me and may never love me again. Caused me to be needy and depressed, which didn't help the situation at all. I had to go to the dr. 3 times over 4 months before he would finally give me meds. I don't know where my high libido comes from, but he said he didn't think it was necessarily bad for someone my age. I wish he would have given it to me earlier so I could have stopped pursuing sooner. He also gave me Chlorazepate to take when I have serious anxiety attacks. I have never taken anything like these drugs before, but I felt it was the only way I could cope with the situation. I was completely out of my mind. Still am some days. Started taking the drugs in May.
Never been in sex therapy.
Actually, I am agreeing that it was VERY selfish. I said that thus far, I have defended myself, but after much thought and many sleepless nights, I do realize how extremely selfish it was and how it must have made her feel. I am more than very sorry. I am ashamed of what I have done to her. I was relentless.
The question at hand is whether to tell her that I agree with her or not at this point. It wasn't 3 times per day, but maybe 5 times per week. maybe more some weeks. Sometimes twice per day, like morning and night.
I have apologized for most things, but have not agreed with her yet that I have been selfish. I don't know if apologizing at this point helps or hurts. I would think helps, which is why I wrote the apology, but I have also been so needy and pursuing that has also turned her off and I have to find the strength to stand again. I have been a doormat for 5 months doing everything I thought was right, only to watch it blow-up in my face.
Thanks for helping me.
But she never turned me down. I asked her why and she said it wasn't that easy with the pressure I was putting on her.
You haven't said it, but it sounds to me like you are the type to sulk if she does say no. It's a form of emotional bullying. Which means that over time I'm sure it seemed easier to give in than to have you acting like a sulky baby if she didn't. Doesn't mean she wanted to, and "saying no more forcefully" wouldn't have made a difference.
You are right about the sulking, or getting angry. That is why she gave in.
So the question at hand is whether or not to apologize for this since I have always defended myself against her claims of my selfishness, although I have apologized for everything else, I think. . . .
Part of me thinks this apology might melt her heart and part of me thinks she just doesn't care anymore and I can hardly blame her.
But do it because it's The Right Thing to Do, not because it will melt her heart.
Because it won't. At least not now.
Puppy
Thanks everyone. Will do and hope for the best. I feel so low.
This can be overcome, Dan. Be hopeful.
Greek
Before you apologize, do some real soul searching first. This is your one and maybe only shot at telling her that you get it. Will it melt her heart? Probably not, but done right it could crack the ice.
If you don't have it, I would get Dr Phil's, Relationship Rescue. It really helped me own my mistakes, not for my H but for me. And, it helps you communicate in new ways so you break old habits. This was key to busting our D.
Maybe put your apology on paper first and post it here. We can help you avoid anything that sounds defensive or pursuing. Your W has been waiting years to hear these words from you. You want to make sure she knows this is from the heart.
With the kids always around and me being out of town tomorrow, I felt I had to deliver it tonight. Probably should have waited for more feedback and practiced a bit. I am a good writer, but my delivery stinks. It didn't seem to phase her at all. She has always been very good at hiding her emotions, but I'm not sure she even has any left. All she said was alright and then went back to watching TV. Had a smoke and went to bed within about 1/2 hour. No further talk. I gave her the written copy as she went to her room. Hopefully she reads it and it means something to her.
My apology is posted on page 10, but here it is again.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about what you said about me being selfish and I want you to know that I accept it and that I agree with you. When you took the kids to the movies, or to the beach and you asked me if I wanted to go, I said “no”, because those were things that I didn’t enjoy doing, but that shouldn’t have mattered. It was very selfish of me not to be there with you and the kids and I am sure that I missed a lot of good interaction time with them and with you. I should have accepted your invitations and been acting more like a family. I wish I would have gone with you and if I had understood how much it was hurting you and my relationship with the kids, I would have gone along. I really regret not participating in those events, but I am going to learn from those mistakes and work to make my relationship with the kids the best it can be. Going forward, I really am going to need them as much as they are going to need me.
Regarding our intimate interactions, I am sorry that what I did made you feel like an object, or possession or piece of meat. That was certainly not my intent, but hearing what you have said and looking back on my actions, I can understand how I caused you to feel that way. No one should have to live that way or feel like that, especially with their spouse. I was being selfish in taking care of my own needs, when I should have been focusing on your needs and making sure they were met and you were happy. That is my 1st job as a husband and I am sorry that I failed you in that regard. I would like to make this better for both of us, but I understand your reluctance to put up with me any longer.
I want to thank you for making me realize these things and to know that I am working very hard to improve myself in these areas, whether that ends up being for us or just because it is the right thing for me to do as a person to improve myself and my future relationships. If, by chance, you change your mind and decide that you do want to try to save our marriage, I think you’ll find me ready and willing to work on all issues – including mine.
Right now I feel like I should just resign myself to the fact that this relationship is over. She has told me that ever since she had the blow-up in January, she has felt different and has given herself permission to act on her feelings rather than trying to please me. I wish she would have put more effort into communicating her isues in the first place. Apparently I am not that perceptive, or perhaps I just didn't care. I did what I thought was right for my family, but I didn't treat her like I should have. Guess I am going to have to find the strength to accept this and move on. This is going to be a long road.
Thanks to all for your input and support of such a vile human being as myself.
not vile, Dan, just human. You actually did it as was going to explain it to you. It's more effective if there's no conversation about it. Belive me, she'll think about what you said and read it again.
Maybe I have some kind of problem that can be fixed with drugs. When she first blew-up in January, I suggested that maybe I had high levels of testosterone, but she said it was all in my head. 5 months later, she suggested maybe I had high testosterone, but I don't, I had the dr give me a blood test and am in the middle of the normal range. Maybe I just need to find a woman that is a freak like me.......
I'm just so worried about my kids, and myself actually. I have never dealt well with rejection and she is my first and only real relationship. All my other encounters were really just one night stands, which is actually how we started. Lots of one night stands and neither of us cared. When she left college for work, I didn't think I was ever going to see her again. Until she called me a month later to ask me to come and visit her. My life with her has been pretty much great ever since.
I was under a ton of stress at work the last couple of years. I got a bunch of promotions and more responsibility. At one point I had sores on my head from pulling out my eyebrows and my thumbnails were all wavy/rough from pulling out my cuticles. They still are, but are better. One of my friends suggested that I was using sex as stress relief and he was probably right. It got to the point that I would forgo other activities, such as hunting or fishing to stay in bed with my W and have sex. I enjoyed it more than anything else in this world and thought she was right there with me most of the time. I knew wasn't always ready at first, but seemed to enjoy it by the end, so I thought she just needed a warm-up period, which I always gave her. This post is getting out of hand. I put way too much info out there, don't I?
Going to a music festival this afternoon/night with some friends. Trying to get a life. W is going to take the kids to pick strawberries this morning, but I can tell she doesn't want me to come along. Then they are going to the beach with some friends. I will tell them to have a good time. Supposed to rain a bunch this weekend, so my D suggested playing Risk again.
Just going to keep trying to GAL, spend time with kids and not pursue W.
Will try to check-in later.
Thanks!
D9 doesn't want to go strawberry picking this morning. Wants to stay home. Kids asked if I was going too. Said I didn't think I was invited. Probably the wrong thing to say. D9 asked W if I was going and she said "No. He is not going." D9 stayed home with me. I have to leave soon to go to the bank and meet some friends for the festival.
W & I sent to our joint back a few days ago to take my name off of our joint account, but found out that we couldn't since I am the primary member. She has to open a new account. Since I have my own account now, I gave her back the debit card for our account and told her it was hers now. She immediately cut it up in front of me. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I took her off of some credit cards and asked her to cut them up too. Eye for an eye.
I feel like the tension is building a bit again. She says she has been depressed because of what we have been/are going through, but she is the one calling the shots. This is her decision without even giving the R a fighting chance. Never wanted to work on it at all.
Thanks to all for your help.
Just read my W's email. She is making plans with her friends family without me. Told her that she had filed for a Divorce and that it was a long story she could share with her later, but she knows she is doing the right thing. Sent a huge chill down my body reading that. Makes me want to quit this.
I suppose this is normal talk for a WAS and I should keep on track, right?
Nobody has responded to me for a while. I could use a little reassurance or have you given up on me based on what I have posted?
Went to the music festival and stayed at a friends house last night. Had a pretty good time, although I did break-down about my situation a few times. Met a guy there that has been D twice and another that is just going through it now. Talked a lot of D all night. That is what I seem to do all the time anymore. Can't seem to stop.
I let my friends W read the letter from my W this morning and she said she didn't know what to tell me, but she didn't think any of it was worth getting divorced over and that all marriages have problems. We talked for a while and when I left she gave me a big hug and told me to call or come over anytime. That made me feel a little better, but also started to break-down again about my R.
I saw a "friend" at the festival, who turns out to be the woman who lent my wife the $3,000 for an attorney so she could start the D. She came to give me a hug and I stopped her and asked her why she gave my wife the $ to get divorced. She didn't know that I knew and she turned away and started to quickly leave so I shouted after her 'F*** you Reg. F*** you Reg." then I texted my wife and told her what had happened. All she said was "Nice."
Just got home and W is out shopping with D9 and picking up S11 from a friends. She will likely be home soon.
Thanks for letting me vent here.
I wish I knew what she was telling her friends about us and how she "knows" this is the right thing to do.
Dan, I think you've received some of this advice before and I know that it's really hard to do, but you really have to at this point. DETACH! GAL! Get out of the house. Find some things to do with friends that give your mind a break from obsessing about your sitch.
Who cares what your W is thinking or what she's telling her friends? She's filed. Your job now is to be the best dad you can be and protect yourself legally. Don't be fooled by her acting nice. It's probably just that an act.
From the sounds of it, she has not thought this out very well. She assumes that she'll go on being your friend and you'll give her whatever she wants because you feel guilty. You need to show her this is not the case.
QUIT BEING HER FRIEND! Don't go out with her. Don't even speak to her unless it's something important about your kids. Don't be rude but just cold. Let her know this is not what you want but you understand that she is making this choice and these are the consequences.
Most importantly, don't speak to her about your legal position. That just gives her time to prep agruments against you. Go for the 50/50 custody split. You deserve as much time with your kids as she does. And, quite frankly, time equals money. If you don't have 50/50, she will get a large support payment from you. Would you rather have time with your children or pay her money?
Get some backbone, Dan. She'll have more respect for you. More importantly, you'll have more respect for yourself.
Thanks for the reminder Bluestar. Guess I need to be reminded and whipped out of this funk.
I was thinking about getting a keystroke logger to track her on my computer, but that probably isn't a good idea either, huh? I am wanting to find out if she is still talking to this OM and I thought maybe there would be some e-mails or something like that going on. She is deleting e-mails with any references to our sitch immediately. I just happened to catch one to/from a friend of ours this morning and she had it deleted off about 2 hrs later. I know I need to GAL and move on, and I have been doing things with friends, but it is so hard. I am scared to lose my family.
I am going to go for 50% placement too. that may enable me to keep the house, which I think may be best for the kids.
the list sandi gave me said it was OK to invite your spouse on outings with you, but not to let her decision affect whether or not you will go. I got invited to our friends annual summer party last night and the that couple asked me to invite her too. That is on July 31. They also asked me and the kids to go to the Rennisance Faire with them in 2 weeks and I was thinking about asking W to come also.
Should I not do that and just take the kids and not her events?
We also do a vacation for a week at a lake every summer and she still wants to do that together. My brother suggested that I tell her we should split the cabin for a week with me going 1/2 with the kids and her going 1/2. I told her I wasn't sure about that at first, but have since agreed. As we are likely to still be living in the same house at that time anyway, living in the same cabin would just be the same.
I don't know.......
DanF,
Thank for the response to my thread today!
I guess we both have been having one of those days.
It is scary to lose the family you have/had. I feel the same way. Now is the time to think about the family you will have with your kids.
I have been emotional today about her and our family we had in my sitch. I need to remain focused on my kids and the R and family I will have with them when the D is final.
Do not talk about anything regarding the case because it will help the WAS in the custody and other issues. It is difficult, but you have to do it.
Keep all language clean, so there is nothing against you even with people that are helping her for your sake. Don't give any ammunition to her.
Try to detach as much as possible because you are divorcing, and let her know how it will be without you.
Keep positive and take care of yourself.
Thanks LSG. I have to learn to keep myself under control. I am just hurting so badly right now. In my interactions with my W over 23 yrs I don't ever remember us swearing at each other or even really raising our voices.
This is just eating me alive.
Thanks again. I'll do better to keep it under control. Probably should stop drinking.
Went to the neighbors for a couple of beers tonight. On my way out the door, W says, I might be going out tonight. Our D9 is home, so someone needs to be here with her. W asks if I have my phone w/me so she can let me know if she is or isn't going out. About 30 mins later, I get a text to come home so she can leave. How about some notice at least? Anyway, she says bye to D and hugs her. Then says bye to me, so I say, bye, have fun. Should probably have skipped the have fun part and just said bye.
Hang in there LSG. Moving on to better things, even if I don't see them yet.
DanF,
I quit drinking completely to avoid costly mistakes for about 7 months, and it sure has helped me to control all aspects of my sitch. If you drink, try to do it with no contact with her or family afterward. It will help. I started that way at first, and I just stopped, and I am glad.
It will "eat you alive," but drinking or other nonconstructive ways will make it worse. You need to be the one taking control and nothing else.
You can do it!
WAW will be disrespectful, so expect it, and try not to analyze it. It does no good. It is better to say okay and not let her have the satisfaction of causing you to react to her.
I did that today, and it was a waste of my time.
It will be awhile to move through each phase of this ordeal. Try to understand you will have different emotions and feelings, and it will empower you to be okay.
Take care and have a great rest of the weekend. You deserve it!
Puppy,
Can you recommend any specific key logging software? I saw KeyLogicPC software for $20 and PC Pandora software for $70. I am a bit paranoid about just picking one and downloading the software to my computer.
You seem to have experience with this stuff. Can you recommend anything?
eBlaster. Virtually undetectable, and very robust set of features.
Any experience with telephone monitoring?
No. Just voice-activated recorder, under the seat of her car (that I paid for, and was titled in my name), to pick up one side of her cellphone conversations (and both sides of their in-car escapades: blccccch!
)
Puppy
thanks puppy. I did find some telephone recorders online that I may try. W's best friend Debbie, who introduced her to OM calls here ALL the time. Might be interesting to listen in on those conversations. I think I can hide the recorder behind the desk so W won't know it is there. I know the book says not to spy, but I can't help wanting to know what is going on. I hate Debbie. OM's wife know's who Debbie is and knows she introduced them. I told her. Debbie's H worked with OM for a number of years at SuperValu food distribution center. I know Debbie's H and was thinking about confronting the 2 of them about it, but that is probably a BAD idea. Working on a Journal to post and ask for some help.
You'd best first check to see if it's ILLEGAL in your state.
Will do Puppy. It probably is.
I do have a question for the vets out there.
W has filed for D and our “Temporary Hearing”, where the court decides living arrangements, visitation, who pays what, is on July 13th. How do we handle finances between now and then? We each have our own accounts now, although I am still on hers, so I could clean it out if I wanted to, but I won’t. W only works part time, so I make about 5 times what she does. I got paid on Friday and she said today that she needed $ for groceries and asked if I wanted to get cash to pay the sitter. I said, not really, do you want to pay the sitter? She said, what? Do I have to pay the sitter every week? I said I don’t know, I just paid $8k worth of bills. She said she was broke from taking the kids to movies and buying groceries. Asked me for $ to buy groceries. I said, give me the list. I will do the shopping.
Do I tell her I think we should go halves? That is not what the court will likely say, but she is working part-time and spending all kinds of $ on entertainment. She went out drinking the last two weekends, took the kids and friends to the beach on Friday, which cost $, then took the kids and friends to movies and paid for everyone again. The she complained how expensive it was. Now she is going to take the kids to the beach again tomorrow. She is off ½ day on Thursday and all day on Monday and Friday. Her off says consist of sleeping in, exercising, going to the beach or the movies, laying out, doing housework and cooking for the kids. Most of the time, I don’t even get dinner. She has a pretty tough life. I told her she needs to go back to work full-time, but she said she couldn’t because there are no full-time positions available and she needs to “be there” for the kids. I told her we both need to be there for the kids. My attorney said she should have to get a part-time job if she can’t find a full-time position. I hope the judge agrees. She has a 4-year degree and the same job for 20 years, while I have taken 8 promotions to earn more for our family. She didn’t want to have to deal with the “politics” or the aggravation of having people report to her. Wish I could do that. This is one of the decisions we made together for her, and I never held it against her, until now. Look where it got me. Would you say I am bitter? The court says they assign child support and alimony/maintenance payments based on earning potential. I am going to have my attorney argue that she should not only have a full-time job, but a supervisory position, which earns more, because she has 20 years experience. She doesn’t need maintenance. Take care of yourself!!!! I shouldn’t have to finance her week-end drinking binges, should I?
Anyway, if you guys could let me know how you handled similar situations, I would appreciate it.
I would recommend splitting all of your family's expenses -- including debt (credit card) payments -- proportionally to your income. If you make 85% of the family's joint income, then you pay 85% of the bills, and she pays the other 15%. ANYTHING that she spends frivilously, or in any way on OM, comes on TOP of her 15%.
Which is probably more than she's paying now??
Are you in a position to be able to pick up more of the load child-care wise, even during the day, with your job? If you do have flexibility there, your atty may be able to hire an occupational evaluator, and "impute" a fair full-time income to your wife should the two of you divorce.
I did go thru a similar sitch with my wife. All she kept belly-aching about was her "bill." SINGULAR. ONE credit card bill, the majority of the balance of which was for tummy-tuck surgery. I told her I would only pay ONE-THIRD of that monthly payment, since about 2/3rds of her outstanding balance was for the elective surgery, which she of course used to make herself more attractive to another, younger man. She went BALLISTIC over this, and kept saying how "unfair" it was, because "you make MORE MONEY than I do!!" And I was like you, paying those $8k of bills! (our monthly expenses are about $10k). She kept screaming at me "You HAVE to pay most of that bill! You make more money!!"
So I finally said "Look, I'll tell you what. I make about 90% of our joint HH income, so why don't I pay 90% of your credit card bill, and in fact 90% of ALL of our bills, and you can pay 10% of ALL OF OUR BILLS . . . okay?"
That pretty much shut her up.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy. That's kind of what I was thinking, but I want her to pay based on working full-time, not just part time. Then I will have my atty argue that she should have a higher level job and make more $. Just have to get online and find the salary of a supervisor. Since it is a state government job, I should be able to find the pay rates somewhere in the internet.
You are a good friend Puppy. And I do consider you my friend! Thanks for continuing to help me. I don't know how you find all this time, but it is a great service you are performing for all of us. Thanks for the effort!
Journaling:
As I mentioned, W went out last night again with her best friend Debbie. God I hate that woman. Calls here incessantly. W got home about 1:15 AM. I didn’t ask her anything about it, but did text OM EA’s wife to let her know W was going out, just in case. Her husband goes out every weekend. She said he was going to the Casino with a friend and wasn’t worried about them meeting-up. I’m not so sure.
I woke up about 3 AM and went into W’s room to try to find her cell phone. Crawled around on the floor looking. Totally dark. Felt around for pants, because she usually leaves it in a pocket, but couldn’t locate it. Got a bit nervous when wife stirred, but got out of there without getting busted. May try again tonight, but she has probably deleted everything by now anyway. Guards it like a Pit Bull.
Lawn tractor took a crap yesterday. Not sure how much that will cost to fix. I used to spend lots of time trying to fix our old tractor, but look where that got me. Tried to save $ and do it myself, but that meant missing some activities with the kids. Got me filed on is all.
I got up this morning about the same time as W. She went to take shower, so I looked for cell phone again, but she must have had it in the bathroom with her. Folded some laundry, then went to exchange some shirts and look for supplies at the local home center. Got me out of the house and away from W for a while. Worked in the basement for a while figuring out how to patch holes in drywall or put in access panels. Odd size holes may require a combination of both. No I didn’t punch holes in the walls! Access for plumbing fixtures. Then the plumber made a mistake in the ceiling, which I now have to fix. Pain in the butt! Trying to keep up with the 180’s.
As I mentioned in the last post, W asked for grocery money, so I told her I would go instead. While I was out she cooked dinner and then we both cleaned-up in the kitchen after. D9 rinsed some dishes after I had washed them. It was nice to be standing next to her working together! Said she liked doing dishes.
After dinner the kids wanted to play a game, so we both played clue with them. D9 won in a very fast game. Pretty lucky if you ask me. After that, I played Risk again tonight with the kids. They love it and have been playing non-stop since I taught them how a few days ago. D9 is going to wipe out both me and S11, but we had to stop for the night. They are looking very forward to finishing tomorrow. We had a good deal of fun playing both games. Things seem to be going very well, except that W has filed for D and shows no signs of altering her path. I am torn between going cold to the W and being friendly. Part of me thinks that if I can be the H she always wanted, maybe she will change her mind. Then I think of what gets results in other’s situations. Usually it involves withdrawing from the W. Not working with her. All the while that the smothering got me nowhere, I did wonder if she really needed to be rejected in order to come back to me. Not exactly sure where to go from here. It is so confusing.
After games were over, I retired to my room to type up these posts and maybe reread some of DR if I don’t get too sleepy. Didn’t say anything to W. D9 knocked on the door and wanted to show me something. Her tan lines!!! She hasn’t blossomed yet, so she isn’t overly shy about going shirtless. Said she had tan lines down below too, but I asked her not to show them to me. That was really cute. My relationship with my kids is really getting a lot better. After W put the kids to bed I went in their rooms and hugged and kissed them goodnight. I never really did that when they were young, which is one of W’s issues. She used to lay in bed with them until they went to sleep. Oftentimes she would fall asleep too and I would have to wake her to come to bed. I think that is a bit of overkill.
After tucking, I went down to kitchen to do a blood test (diabetic) and W was still watching TV. She went out for a smoke, which she thinks the kids don’t know about, and I went back up to my room and shut the door. She still hides her smoking from her Mom too, as do her two brothers. I don’t know what the point is. Her whole life is a series of lies and misdirection. Anyway, it sounds like she just came-up to go to bed. Didn’t say a word to me.
I hate this situation. We are going to see a kids counselor on Wednesday and after that, I think she will want to tell the kids as soon as possible. Can anybody tell me what happened in their situation after they told the kids? I think it might get more crazy after that. We are both making plans to do things alone with the kids, even though I usually do invite her to come along if she wants to. She never invites me. Told the neighbor she doesn’t want to spend time with me because it may give me hope. I may learn to hate her yet.
While at the grocery store I kept thinking about the situation and wondering if I shouldn’t at some point tell her that I am not going to be her friend when this is done. I will be cordial for the kids, but I will not be her friend. In fact, I will likely come to hate her and do anything I can to spite her. Isn’t that terrible? This is the woman I love so much and have been with for 23 years, but the pain is that bad and I know myself pretty well. I don’t know how else I will get over her.
Thanks to all for your thoughts and advice. I haven’t really been a religious person since I was young, but I have spoken to God a few times since this has happened. I guess I have to keep on trying. Sometimes all the pain I see on this website makes me just want to quit and move on. It seems less painful…………..
Goodnight all.
You're very welcome, Dan.
One thing I meant to ask about, but forgot. Generally, when D papers are filed, the parties are separated and living apart. That is what my W's attorney suggested she request. However, since we can't really afford that, my W said No, take that out of the boilerplate paperwork.
Now, I am thinking that maybe I should have my attorney request that my W be removed from the house and forced to live on her own since she is having an affair and staying out until all hours of the night and not setting a good example for our kids! Plus, she is the one seeking the D, so why shouldn't she be the one to leave?
I am worried that this may backfire on me though and result in me being ordered out of the house instead. WI is a no-fault state, so in terms of the D, it doesn't matter if there was an affair or anything else going on. All you do is say "irreconcilible differences" and the marriage can be dissolved. No fault. But does it matter for living arrangements and placement of the kids?
I'll have to ask my atty on Friday when I go to see her.
One more thing. The ace up my sleeve is that if my W tries to get nasty, I know whe has been making many personal calls, sometimes LONG ones, from work to the OM. She has already been investigated for inappropriate personal e-mails, so I will tell her that I will report her activities to the regional or state level and have them look into call to his ph number. I don't want to ruin her, but if she is going to get nuts, I am going to get ruthless.
Thanks!
But does it matter for
Forgot to mention, W was complaining about not being able to sleep to me and the kids today. When they asked her why, she said because she was getting old. Said she wakes up very early, like 4 am, and then can't go back to sleep. Probably all of the stress from the situation. I probably shouldn't even worry about it, but I have to wonder if this is a good sign.
So I got bold tonight and just walked into W's room and found the phone. Walked out and looked at it. All deleted, texts, calls, everything as usual. Then, I get a text from OM's wife. It seems he not only went to the casino last night, but also to Uncle Mike's bar, which is where he and my W have met each other before. Her girlfriend saw him there, but he neglected to tell his wife. So I wake up my W and ask her where she and Debbie went last night. She is all disoriented and asks what is going on and why am I in her room. I ask again where she went and she sees my phone and asks what is that. I say, my phone. She asks what is on it. I am using it for a light and I say a picture of me. Where did you go last night? Uncle Mikes? She says no, so I ask again. She says none of your business. I say Jim (OM) went to Uncle Mike's and so did you. And as long as we are married, it is my business. I left and she went back to sleep.
She had to be there with him, right? I do know that she actually did talk to Debbie about going out, so I would assume they were together, at least for part of the night, but I don't know how late.
I know this is hardly detaching, but I really do want to bust her again with OM. Texted OM's W back and asked what time the friend saw him there and if he was with an ultra skinny blonde woman. Won't hear from her until tomorrow. Should be a fun morning tomorrow. Maybe this will help me detach. Thinking about getting a GPS for her car, but that doesn't qualify as detaching either.
What a nightmare.
When I see W tomorrow should I just tell her to stop all the lies and admit what is going on? Then we can put a definite end to this M because I won't want you back after all the lies and deceit.
I know this is hardly detaching, but I really do want to bust her again with OM. Texted OM's W back and asked what time the friend saw him t
Dan, you have to start using your HEAD, and not your EMOTIONS.
Let me give you an example. Not sure if you're into baseball or not, but I coach youth baseball. I had this kid on my team this past season -- only his third season playing ball, even though he's 13. Tons of talent, but just doesn't THINK, and doesn't have good baseball instincts yet. He's always begging me to let him BUNT, and he has decent bunt technique, but as you know it's not always the right time to try it. So one game, I'm coaching my usual 3rd base spot, and this kid's due to lead off. He calls me over to him, and whispers "Coach, this pitcher looks really slow (he meant afoot), and so does that fat kid playing third over there. And this catcher's not very good either. Think this would be a good time to bunt?"
"I like the way you think, ________ " I said. "Let's see how deep the kid plays you at third, but yeah, that might not be a bad idea. I'd rather get you to first the EASY way, if we can, (meaning via a WALK), so let's take until you get a strike, and then the next pitch, show it late, and bunt it down the third baseline, like we taught you."
Sure enough, the calorically-challenged kid playing 3rd base start him out playing very deep, so we're all set. So what does my boy do on the first pitch, on which is is taking???
DOES THAT "FAKE-SQUARE-TO-BUNT" THING, which then of course only draws the third baseman in, alerting him to the possibility of a bunt!!!"That's what you just did with your wife, Dan. Any intel-gathering that you're going to try to do just got that much harder, as she knows you're onto her.
Puppy
W stayed in her room with the door shut this am until I left for work. I don't think I am going to say anything about anything for a while, but I have a hard time controlling myself.
I did get the e-Blaster software and saw that my sister sent W the following note:
Hi Brenda,
How are you doing these days?
You haven't heard from me because I was mad at you. I'm getting over that. I know this divorce is hard for you too. I don't want to know any details because I don't want to pick sides. I hope we can still be friends.
How did that Bullfrog sunscreen work for Ashlyn's face? I hope it was gentle enough for her. Maybe you decided it was to risky to try.
I'm spending so much time with school I don't have time for anything or anyone; not even Karl. I'm always crabby or crying because I'm so stressed out. I try to call mom once a week, and see her once a month but I don't always have the time for that either. I wish I could find a job so I could quit school. Mostly I miss having the time to come down to see Josh and Ash. They are growing up so fast and I feel like I'm missing it. I don't want them to think I don't care about them any more. I hope I have more than just a few minutes to spend with them when Dan brings them up on the weekend. I feel like school has ruined my life.
How is work going for you? I hope it's better than school is for me.
Tell the kids I'm looking forward to seeing them.
Debbie
To which I replied:
I'm not sure what you are doing with Brenda at the moment, but I would appreciate it if you didn't give her any support. I believe she is still carrying on her emotional (or perhaps physical) affair with another man. I am still trying to save my marriage and my family and I don't need my family members giving up on it this soon. It has only been 3 weeks since she filed. Please help me by not helping her at this time.
Whenever this thing is finalized or I have decided that I am completely done with this, then I would be ok with you contacting her.
Of course, you can do as you wish either way, but I am asking you to support me and my efforts for the time being.
In my opinion, Brenda never gave this a chance to get fixed. She didn't participate in counseling, she didn't want to work on improving our communication or needs expression skills or anything else. I also firmly believe that is due to the fact that she was having the emotional affair with Jim.
My 2 cents.
Hopefully that wasn't the wrong approach to take. I should probably be vetting more things with you guys before I do them. I always react so quickly.
I'm starting to feel that I should justa accept this and move on, which is how I know I am supposed to act, but if I get there, there may be no coming back.
Thanks for keeping up with me Puppy. Sorry I am not better at following your advice.
To which I replied:
Hopefully that wasn't the wrong approach to take.
Need I say anything?
I always do it wrong, but maybe this helps give me the detachment I need.
Puppy,
I know you are correct about my reactions, but these things can't all be coincidence, can they?
She goes to work on her off day and makes sure to specifically tell me she is going there to talk to her friend that she already talks to 3 times a day on the phone, when this is where she has been calling OM from. Then OM has a 25 minute incoming call on his phone that morning that his wife sees on the last call timer, but he has conveniently deleted the call logs that day, which he had been leaving on and leaving his phone lying around for his wife to check for the previous week. Just a bit too convenient.
On Saturday, W goes out at the last minute, with same friend, gives me no notice, and OM is spotted at one of her favorite hang-outs. I can't believe that W wasn't there too.
You are going to love this one too.
On the way in to work this morning, I called W's friend (Debbie) and thanked her for introducing OM to my W and for supporting her affair. OM's W, who my W says is crazy, knows Debbie from high school, so I tell her that OM's wife knows too and that since my W thinks she is crazy, I just wanted to give her fair warning. She denied introducing them at first, but then asked if she was supposed to control who my W talked to? I said no, but you are supposed to tell her to try to work things out and save her family rather than support her affair. Went back and forth for a couple of minutes and then ended the conversation.
Another mistake I know, but maybe I really don't care anymore. It should be interesting to see what happens today.
Take care all.
Thanks for keeping up with me Puppy. Sorry I am not better at following your advice.
There's no need to apologize to ME. You're only hurting your own efforts, when you go off and do whatever it is you WANT to do, instead of calmly and patiently using your head.
Puppy
Another mistake I know, but maybe I really don't care anymore.
Then frankly neither do I, Dan. If you can't show any more self-restraint than a 3 year old would have, then good luck.
I'm afraid I can't help you.
Puppy
Don't give-up on me Puppy. These things were all done before you posted this morning. I will try harder. There is not try, only do, or do not.
Here is a note my wife is typing me right now (eblaster). What to make of it? I will not respond. Do I talk to her about it tonight or just remain detached?
I feel like I tried to be the best wife and mother and have given this the best I could for the past 20 some years. I'm very saddened and upset at what this had come to. I guess I mistakenly thought you had some respect for me and maybe you would understand I only want to be happy. I knew this process would be painful, but I really don't believe it has to get this bad. You know as well as I that neither Reg or Debbie is responsible for where we are. Lets just leave the blame where it should be....YOU AND I !! I was planning to take out a loan for the atty. I just was so completely stressed out that I did not need one more burden so I borrowed the $ from Reg. That is it. It would have happened either way. As for as Debbie, believe what you want. The fact is she did not even recognize Jim the night we met him. Conversation ocurred and two and two were put together, that he used to work with Bo. She didn't introduce me and it doesn't matter anyway.
Based on your accusations, I have to assume you've been talking to Laurie. I can only imagine the things you've talked about with her. I guess maybe you think that is o.k. because I shared some things with Jim. Well, just try to think about what her motive is. I know I am the one responsible for opening this door but now you are the one to keep it open. I'm sure you think she is nice,etc, and I'm sure she can be, but I have heard the things she is capable of and I only hope what you have shared (our address??) does not come back to hurt our family.
I asked you before not to come in my room at night when I'm sleeping. It scares me and it is not the time for a discussion anyway. Please do not do that again.
I know you are hurting. I'm sorry you feel so desperate. I was just hoping that our history, relationship, and what I've given to our family would give you some pause when discussing things with others and your interactions with my friends. You keep saying you are concerned about my health, if that is true than please stop. My stomach is killing me and I guess I probably will keep losing weight if this continues. My body is just reacting to the stress of it all. Maybe you feel like this is payback for me hurting you, I don't know. I truly hope that is not what this boils down to. Thanks for listening.
Please Puppy. Don't give-up on me yet. I will get my jaw wired shut if I have to.
Dan,
She is involved with another man. Let her go. Let them have each other. Pack her up and move her OUT. Time for her to go.
You're hurt and who wouldn't be but I promise you Dan, when you look back on this time in your life, you'll want to feel proud of how you handled yourself - like a man, not like a boy. Right now, you are acting like a boy who can't live without this cake-eating girl. She is not acting like a woman, btw. More like a teenager lying to her daddy and hiding herself. Women don't do that - girls do. As long as you put up with it, she'll do it.
Step up. Be a man.
Greek
Here is a note my wife is typing me right now (eblaster). What to make of it? I will not respond. Do I talk to her about it tonight or just remain detached?
She needs you to back off and get-a-life. Keep getting in her face and talking about how great you think the relationship was or could be. and how much you love her and can make changes and how she is making a mistake,
and you will end up be known as the "idiot ex-husband that didn't get a clue and screwed up when he might of had a chance."
How are you accomplishing detachment?
I read all these posts telling people to confront their spouses and put a stop to the relationships with OM. That is what I thought I was trying to do.
In the first incident, all I did was ask her friend why she lent my W the money and she ran away like a coward, so I cursed her.
Then I confronted the W about continued contact with OM, which she continues to deny and, from what I have read here and heard from others, is likely the reason she hasn't tried to work things out in the relationship.
Then I confronted her friend who is supporting her in these efforts and who knows the OM and told her how I felt she SHOULD BE acting differently from HOW SHE IS acting.
I thought that confronting these issues was stepping up and being a man. It might finally tell the W that I am done with it. Maybe I have also done these things to try to get myself beyond the hurt and desperate stage, but I am now breaking down again, even though I try to be strong.
She says she just wants to be happy, but I don't believe this is going to make anyone happy. I want to tell her that I don't want her to be happy, I want all of us to be happy as a family and am willing to do whatever it takes to get there, but she has to be willing to try too.
Perhaps this is what it takes for me to get detached enough so that I don't hurt anymore. I just don't want any of this.
Thanks.
Here is a note my wife is typing me right now (eblaster). What to make of it? I will not respond. Do I talk to her about it tonight or just remain detached?
She needs you to back off and get-a-life. Keep getting in her face and talking about how great you think the relationship was or could be. and how much you love her and can make changes and how she is making a mistake,
and you will end up be known as the "idiot ex-husband that didn't get a clue and screwed up when he might of had a chance."
How are you accomplishing detachment?
Ok. Maybe I am an idiot. For detachment I have started spending more time with my kids. I joined a softball team, but we got rained-out. Game tomorrow night. I went out the past 2 fridays with other friends. I have tried to keep busy with projects around the house to stay out of W's way.
The problem I have is that she continues to be nice and it doesn't feel like I should be detaching. We tell others spend time together and show their wives the man they want to be with. I have also been trying to do that by spending time with the kids and by continuing to do my 180's, which are the kids, housework and backing off on the sex, which has been 3 months. I don't know how much more I can do to back-off. Last night I went to my room and worked on the computer so I wasn't around to watch TV. She thinks she wants this to be a nice, friendly, clean divorce to make it easier on her. Not sure I can or should do that.
What do I do next? Just shut down and stop talking to her and only interact with the kids? We had a nice dinner last night and worked together to clean-up the kitchen after. Probably the wrong thing to do also. Do I just stop doing the housework 180?
I'm so confused as to how to proceed.
Here is a note my wife is typing me right now (eblaster). What to make of it? I will not respond. Do I talk to her about it tonight or just remain detached?
She needs you to back off and get-a-life. Keep getting in her face and talking about how great you think the relationship was or could be. and how much you love her and can make changes and how she is making a mistake,
and you will end up be known as the "idiot ex-husband that didn't get a clue and screwed up when he might of had a chance."
How are you accomplishing detachment?
I haven't told her I loved her or been in her face about the relationship since at all she told me she was going to file for D on June 5th. I did accept and validate one of her concerns about me being selfish recently, but I only told her I was willing to work on the problems if she changed her mind, but that I appreciated the advice for my own self-growth.
I am only getting in her face about the OM, which I cannot really prove, but there are too many coincidences for it not to be going on.
Detach....detach.....detach......
[And dday step up to the plate with his famed 4x6 in hand
]
Dan,
You confront your wife, REPEATEDLY, DAILY it seems. You confronted her friends. You even have gone so far as to confront YOUR OWN SISTER.
heh, confront your kids yet or did I miss that?
Ehhh, do you live off the old highway and run the Bates Motel? Because you sound like a friggen psychopath! KNOCK IT OFF. EDIT- I wouldn't want you in my room either in the middle of night at this point!
Dan, I chose to reply to you as I thought you had serious hope to turn your situation around quickly. Notice I don't respond too very many Newcomer threads?
You have not listened to, or completely misread everything that has been handed down to you from just about everybody who's answered you. And the bulk of us in this thread, have our spouses back!
You need to calm the eff down, very quickly. And how are you going to explain that little e-mail reply to your sister? You know she's alrady contacted your wife.
Thanks DDay. I appreciate your input. What made you think that I had serious hope to turn this around quickly? I felt like her mind was made up and that is what all of our family and friends are telling me too. Do YOU think I still have a chance or have completely blown it now?
I am not Norman Bates. I am actually a very nice guy, who apparently hasn't treated his wife very nicely in all respects. Although I thought I was giving her everything she wanted, I know we have emotional intimacy and serious communications issues that we need to improve.
I will go back and re-read all of the posts on this thread to try to learn something from them and what I have done wrong. Maybe it is too late, but it has only been 11 days since my first post.
Am I supposed to make this D easy on her? That is what she wants.
I promise to all that I will calm the eff down and not react to anything any more.
I don't believe my sister will tell her what I said.
Was the grocery thing confronting her? I thought that was part of putting on the BGP. Maybe I am just stupid. Should I have just given her money?
I feel like there is some conflicting advice between different posts and the book. Be nice, don't be nice. I don't know.
How do I act when I go home tonight? What if she questions me about this stuff? Say nothing? Just be calm and polite?
I am sorry to have disappointed you all............I really do need your continued support if anyone is still willing to give it.
I read all these posts telling people to confront their spouses and put a stop to the relationships with OM. That is what I thought I was trying to do.
In the first incident, all I did was ask her friend why she lent my W the money and she ran away like a coward, so I cursed her.
Then I confronted the W about continued contact with OM, which she continues to deny and, from what I have read here and heard from others, is likely the reason she hasn't tried to work things out in the relationship.
Then I confronted her friend who is supporting her in these efforts and who knows the OM and told her how I felt she SHOULD BE acting differently from HOW SHE IS acting.
I thought that confronting these issues was stepping up and being a man. It might finally tell the W that I am done with it. Maybe I have also done these things to try to get myself beyond the hurt and desperate stage, but I am now breaking down again, even though I try to be strong.
She says she just wants to be happy, but I don't believe this is going to make anyone happy. I want to tell her that I don't want her to be happy, I want all of us to be happy as a family and am willing to do whatever it takes to get there, but she has to be willing to try too.
Perhaps this is what it takes for me to get detached enough so that I don't hurt anymore. I just don't want any of this.
Thanks.
I don't think confronting her friends is confronting anything. Who in hell are they to you? Going to her girlfriends about things that she does is what, well, girlfriends do. They talk to everyone EXCEPT the person they have the issue with.
Put your proof of the A together, go to her and tell her what you know. Don't ask her. Tell her. Then lay down the boundary. If her meeting another man in a bar is a dealbreaker, tell her so. Whatever your boundary is, let her know. Let her know that if she crosses that boundary, you will step up the pace on the D path.
But stop talking to the besties.
Greek
I did get the e-Blaster software and saw that my sister sent W the following note:
Aside from the obvious how-not-to-handle things matter, I think that was entirely too much personally-identifying information to be posting on a public forum.
Thanks DDay. I appreciate your input. What made you think that I had serious hope to turn this around quickly?
Do YOU think I still have a chance or have completely blown it now?
It's when they are so heart strung that THIS is what they think they want.
I am only trying to hopefuly paint a picture for you of how your actions are coming off. LOL, "Norman" was a pretty nice quiet guy too. Right now your wife is looking for anything to validate the direction her mind
thinks is the right direction and your emotional over-reactions and quick to jump to conclusion ways are providing far more than enough firepower for her.
You need an emotional check, I know it's not easy. 11 days may very well be too late. I think it only took me about the same to blow stuff way the hell up, been there, done that. Let me ask this, are you drinking during all this? It's a serious question on many grounds.
All you need to do is stand your grounds. Say what you need say, ONCE, and stop beating a dead horse. That's why stuff may seem conflicting to you, yes you were advised to address the possibilty of an A. But not daily. If she wants to go down the same ol beaten path everyday, tell her to go down it alone and go play with your kids or something else productive.
Otherwise, what you ARE doing right now IS making the D easier for her. Very, unbelievably easy.
Thanks for not giving up on me DDay, Greek, 4-more and others.
I have been drinking. Both of us have. It is what we do. The other day she texted me that she was drinking our last beer that she didn't know where it came from. I brought it home from the neighbors the night before, so I stopped and got a 30 pack of beer on the way home. Then drinking at my brother's Bday party, drinking at summerfest. I guess I need to stop all drinking.
I will stop confronting, stop beating dead horses and keep to playing with the kids. I hope I am not too late.
Thanks for your help and I WILL implement these suggestions. No more talking and reacting emotionally.
I have been drinking. Both of us have. It is what we do. The other day she texted me that she was drinking our last beer that she didn't know where it came from. I brought it home from the neighbors the night before, so I stopped and got a 30 pack of beer on the way home. Then drinking at my brother's Bday party, drinking at summerfest. I guess I need to stop all drinking..
Thank you for being open about that. That is a huge problem thwarting the problems at hand. Another thing learned from experience.
Cut it out.
You are navigating treacherous, perilous waters. Your future hangs in the balance. Do you REALLY think you can make your way to a good outcome ... with a buzz?
Would you trust MY ADVICE if I told you I had just finished my 4th Manhattan?? He!! no. You wouldn't take the advice (or I hope you wouldn't) of someone who responded to you while loaded!
Same difference.
Cut it out.
Greek
Sorry to post again everyone, and maybe this is obvious to everyone but me, but specifically, what do I do tonight if she starts asking me about the things in her note?
Say nothing?
Say I accept that she wants the M to be over and it is time to move on. I am done with it?
She is saddened and only wants to be happy? I want us to be happy as a family?
What are OM's W's motives? To find the truth?
I am sorry you are so desperate. I am not desperate, I am moving on and this has nothing to do with payback?
Thanks!
You are navigating treacherous, perilous waters. Your future hangs in the balance. Do you REALLY think you can make your way to a good outcome ... with a buzz?
Like being on a plane in a terrible storm when the pilot is drunk, eh?
What's not to like about this?
Sorry to post again everyone, and maybe this is obvious to everyone but me, but specifically, what do I do tonight if she starts asking me about the things in her note?
Not sure if you have heard this , but the first thing to try is "AVOID R TALK LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!!!". Make plans to go do something you enjoy, then go to that! Take the kids for fun is even better.
.
.
.
.
Happily, confidently respond "Can't talk right now, running late. See you later!!!!"
Focus your energy on you and your kids. Get completely involved with your kids. Make positive changes to the way you interact with everyone.
You are navigating treacherous, perilous waters. Your future hangs in the balance. Do you REALLY think you can make your way to a good outcome ... with a buzz?
Like being on a plane in a terrible storm when the pilot is drunk, eh?
What's not to like about this?
We had a rule in the Air Force: "12 hours bottle to throttle." Except when we were TDY then it was: "No drinking within 50 ft of the plane."
Sounds like a good policy. What do you think coach? Just walk away or tell her that she is confusing done for desperate?
Puppy, I do still care. Please give me another chance!
if she is this traumatized and sick from this already, D can't be what she really wants, right?
I am home now and she just got home too. Sorry to beg, but anyone else care to help. I know I may not deserve it, but please? For now I will stay quiet on the topic.
Dan, make sure the kids are ok and then casually leave the house. Just a cool, See you later. No discussions. Go find something(anything) to do. If she tries to text you to come home to watch the kids so she can go out, ignore her. Stay out. Only go home when it's past her bedtime. Then just go straight to your own room. No discussions.
Do not talk or text her or any of her friends. If you need to talk, call one of your own friends. Remember, your W is not your friend right now.
We've all posted about what you need to do. Go back and re-read them. Be patient with yourself. We all slip up from time to time.
We've all posted about what you need to do. Go back and re-read them. Be patient with yourself. We all slip up from time to time.
I'm thinking his time scale is off. He expects results--good or bad--in a time frame as if this were an ordinary argument. He's not grasping the months ahead.
Thanks guys. Took S11 to baseball and went 4 a walk during practice. W just arriving now. Will probably run me down with auto. She is not happy. Welcome to the club. Game starting. No talking for me. Thanks again.
We've all posted about what you need to do. Go back and re-read them. Be patient with yourself. We all slip up from time to time.
I'm thinking his time scale is off. He expects results--good or bad--in a time frame as if this were an ordinary argument. He's not grasping the months ahead.
I probably do expect something too soon. We never really argued much at all, so I don't really know what think. I guess the answer is lots of patience. Everyone has said it. You are right, there are months ahead of me while this thing drags out. I'm just going to keep my mouth shut for a while. No one else to call out anyway.
Sons baseball team won tonight to move to the championship game. I was in bleachers when W got there and she actually sat next to me and made a few comments. I was very brief in return. Did not initiate any conversation myself. Talked to all the people around me and had a good time. Home now and in my room on my laptop. W is downstairs trying to get all her paperwork together for meeting with attorney on Friday. Both of us are meeting with atty's on Friday. Should be interesting. I still have some work to do on my own paperwork too. I summarized all of our expenses for the last 12 months and she wants me to share it with her. Not sure that I should.
Have a meeting set-up Wednesday afternoon to interview a childrens counselor and talk about how to talk to the kids and how to tell if they need someone to talk to. Got a lot of good advice here that I will discuss with the counselor. I set it up and invited W to come also. W thinks they will be fine, and maybe they will. Lots of kids going through this these days, but that doesn't mean I want mine to have to. She wants to tell them shortly after we see the counselor. Not looking forward to that. Makes it feel like there is a certain finality to it.
Softball game for me tomorrow, so I should be out until maybe 9pm. W probably won't be up that long after that anayway.
Thanks for listening and helping. Trying to learn from you all........
Ugh, DanF, what is it about the WAS that makes them try and minimize how the kids will feel? I suppose it's to protect themselves against feeling guilt for their decision, but I despise it nonetheless. You can't pretend the "kids will be fine." It's too big a change in their lives for them to ignore it.
Dan,
Patience is a very KEY word. Look at those of us who are in reconcilliation, the average is at the very least 18 months to 2 years before things start to come around (sincerely)! That's alot of time. And in that time, YOU are to quit fobbling over what she thinks and what she's doing. This is time FOR YOU. It's not a 100% guarentee things pan out that way, but, the more you focus on you and let her deal with her, the better chance you have. First and last time I'm saying it.
And for heaven's sake, you don't know what to do about finance information? Didn't we have this discussion? YOU SHARE NOTHING FINANCIALLY. NOTHING!!! Why in the hairy hell do you think she has an attorney and YOU have an attorney. Look, the direction your sitch is headed in right now, not good. Her head is swimming, and guess what, attorney's DO NOT help that one bit. Does a divorce attorney become one just because they like ending unhappy marriages? No sir. By nature, divorces especially where kids are concerned are nearly guarenteed to be a long drug out process for them to do their job. And what do you get for doing a job? Money. Look, even at the very start of my D, my (x)W's attorney took a look at me, and then a look at (x)W, all dratty, worn out, confused and in the clutches of OM. She approached me directly, her opposition, and said "I'm sorry I have to do this, your a nice man, but it's my job" And just this Sunday, (x)W who is dealing with her on a seperate issue broke the news that we are back together, getting remarried and expecting, and her attorney is delighted.
In saying that, it makes me think back on all the vile lies and stories those two cooked up in court to make me look horrid. And it will happen to you too. And that is where alot of LBS in you mindset end up straying the path, forgetting their WAS is not the person they've known for years and end up making some very fatal mistakes.
Back to the subject matter of the thread, the kids. Don't you believe for one friggen second the kids will be ok. They already AREN'T!!! Looks at the statement they made back at the beginning of this thread for their out look on life at the moment. Is that ok to you?!?!?!
My family, me, (x)W and kids are back together as best as possible, making the best of life, and I'll tell you, my kids STILL, are not OK. It's going to take years of instilling a sense of security back in them, that it is ok. It is going to take seeing (x)W and myself nuturing our new baby with all the love we can muster, to make it known it's ok. Hell, I got the ebbie-gebbies this morning when (x)W was all depressed looking because we've been a little sex starved since finding out we are pregnant and feels I don't love her enough because of that. I can only imagine what goes through the kids heads when they see it. They already freak out when there is the slightest disagreement, even tho (x)W and I know it's nothing major and not going anywhere, the kids still get very nervous.
Man, I don't know what else to tell you. IT WILL get ugly from here. You've been given all you need from here in. Share NOTHING divorce related with her. Quit the confrontations. Quit the how do I react. Keep it business like and polite and dodge relationship talks. You are being baited, time and time again, nature of the game and you are feeding her validation pool. And most of all, expect NOTHING. Expectation in these situations are the root of all failure.
Ugh, DanF, what is it about the WAS that makes them try and minimize how the kids will feel? I suppose it's to protect themselves against feeling guilt for their decision, but I despise it nonetheless. You can't pretend the "kids will be fine." It's too big a change in their lives for them to ignore it.
Right. The conversations below happened a while back, so no new confrontations are occurring, but here are the things she is rationalizing.
She actually told me that if we canceled our summer family vacation slated for August that the cancelation might be as hard on the kids as the divorce! Therefore, I need to suck it up and go anyway. Nevermind the cost and the fact that we are strapped for cash and will be taking a big loss on our home. We must go.
She wasn't worried about arranging for a kids counselor because she already knew what to tell them and all kids don't need to go to counseling when their parents get divorced anyway. This would be something we could just react to if needed. I told her that it didn't hurt to be prepared and I was going to set up an appointment so we could agree on a counselor in advance and didn't have to wait too long to get them in if necessary.
Then, while she says above that the divorce is no big deal, it would be extremely difficult on the kids to have a 50%/50% placement arrangement, so I should think about what is best for the kids and let her have them full-time and I would get them every other week-end.
What planet is she on?
I told her what would be best for the kids would be to fix the problems in the Marriage and all of us live together as a family. She said it isn't possible because she "just doesn't feel that way about me anymore."
Ok. I hope this makes you happy.......but I dont think it will....
Trying to hang in there.
Dan,
The sooner you stop tryin to "make her happy," and start "Doing the Right Thing," the better off you will be.
YOU decide what you think is best for your family. Your wife, sadly, does not have the family's best interests at heart right now. She DOES have rights where the kids are concerned, and so you'll have to negotiate with her (thru your ATTORNEY), but YOU need to be the family's advocate in the months ahead.
Puppy
but here are the things she is rationalizing.
What planet is she on?
Again, need I say anything?
Thanks for sharing your experiences DDay. Point taken. I am done dealing with her and will focus on my kids and myself.
I agree that this will be very hard on the kids, but all I can do is love them at this point. That is partly why it is hard to be "gone" at night when they are around. That is the only time I get to see them other than week-ends.
Can I ask that since you and your W are now back together, was it worth the work and the wait? Two years is an awful long time and to hear that she continues to question your love is heart-wrenching. I know a guy at work who got back together with his X and they say the relationship is better than ever, but I know another guy that did the same and ended up getting divorced again because his wife found another man while he was working in Iraq and putting her through school.
Thanks for not giving-up on me. I am in the Chicago area, so you may actually get a chance to use that 4x6 on me sometime!!!
Polite and business like and patience are the keys from here on out.
Thanks again to all and good luck to everyone. I hope your situations work out as you would like them to.
Thanks for coming back Puppy. I thought you had given-up on me.
Then, while she says above that the divorce is no big deal, it would be extremely difficult on the kids to have a 50%/50% placement arrangement, so I should think about what is best for the kids and let her have them full-time and I would get them every other week-end.
What planet is she on?
It is maddening, isn't it? The logic, the excuses, the rationalizations change from one moment to the next with no rhyme or reason underlying any of them. I guess it all points pretty clearly to the fact that the WAS is thinking of no one but herself/himself and is in an entirely bleeped-up state of mind.
, but all I can do is love them at this point. That is partly why it is hard to be "gone" at night when they are around.
And that is why you find something to do with them. I should also say, document it as well, what you do, where you went, what you spent. (your attorney should have advised you of this already. Along with no booze!)
Can I ask that since you and your W are now back together, was it worth the work and the wait? Two years is an awful long time and to hear that she continues to question your love is heart-wrenching.
Let me say, my (x)W, even tho she still loved me all along, did some very vile, nasty, horrible, truly dispicable things to desimate me. We live(d) in a very tight nit community. She made a spectacle out of her A. Ironically, that ended up being the very demise and eye opener for her as to what is right and wrong.
Was it worth the 'work and wait'. I stopped waiting. For a long time, I wasn't working for it anymore. When she came around finally, I wsa smack dab in the middle of deciding who of 3 possibilites was to be my first attempt at a serious new relationship. I was done. Yeah, I still loved her too, she was my wife of 10 years, and would always be the mother of my children, but this ship had sat in harbour damaged for long enough, and it was time to sail out to sea. I became the WAS.
That said. We do have a better relationship than ever before now. She questions me sometimes becuase she knows as I told her in the beginning, I didn't have to take her back after all she had done. She knows what she had done struck me down to the core. But she also knows, I am a changed man, forever. A better man, forever. Before when she would get in a mini depression like this morning and be grumpy and hostile with me, I would have just walked away and not want to deal with it, didn't understand her. Today, I assured her, that just because we aren't going like bunny rabbits for a few days doesn't mean I love her any less than anyother day, simply, we are going through some changes in lifestyle and are tired and cranky. We were pretty heavy smokers and liked to sit back with a few drinks every night and talk about our days. Well, now, she's pregnant and can't do that, which makes me, pregnant and can't do that.
And in saying that, she lit up, knowing my changes are for real and are a permanent fixture in my style of life.
We are in this together. And that's what a true partnership is, togetherness, when one person is down, the other picks them up and the team socres another victory, win or lose.
We (all) live as if there is now tomorrow. Another case in point, Sunday. S12 asked to play catch with the football for a bit. I was again tired and cranky and said "not right now". (x)W was right there in the background and as he walked away disappointed, I sensed it and remembered, I am not guarenteed tomorrow, and today all he would do is retreat to the TV, and said, "yeah what the heck, let's go". It was then I realized (x)W was there in the background, and she had a smirk of glea for my realization, then proceeded outside with us and sat in a chair and watched.
It's all the little things Dan. It's all the little thing you haven't been doing. Your programing has caught a virus after years of repitition and routine. The time ahead of you, while your wife sorts herself out, is the time for you to reboot and reinstall the program. And it's those little things that will win in the end.
I am in the Chicago area, so you may actually get a chance to use that 4x6 on me sometime!!!
It may cause a wave or two with (x)W, but anytime.
It is maddening, isn't it? The logic, the excuses, the rationalizations change from one moment to the next with no rhyme or reason underlying any of them. I guess it all points pretty clearly to the fact that the WAS is thinking of no one but herself/himself and is in an entirely bleeped-up state of mind.
So why do you guys keep thinking the same way? Your "logic" won't work on their "logic" yet we keep trying to put the round peg in a square hole. Once your learn why and how a WAW thinks and feels then you have the playbook. Listen to Sandi and Greek, they know of what they speak.
Or in the immortal words of Carl Spackler, " I have to laugh, because I've outsmarted even myself. My enemy, my foe, is an animal. In order to conquer the animal, I have to learn to think like an animal. And, whenever possible, to look like one. I've gotta get inside this guy's pelt and crawl around for a few days."
Become a Cat Whisperer. You guys are dogs, learn the ways of the cat.
You know, this is actually what I told our worthless MC in one of our joint sessions. "I feel like in order to win back her feelings for me, I have to lose my feelings for her (detach), but I am afraid if I get to that point, there may be no coming back." I was scared of where this would end up, si then I pursued her heavily for 5 months until she filed for D. I wish I would have found this site back then. All I had were touchy feely books at the time.
One more question? Is it ok for my sister to approach her as a friend then? Or is that kind of like cake eating, where she gets all the good stuff on both sides?
Thanks again to all for your insights. You truly are an amazing bunch of people and I will do my very best to heed all of your advice.
Wow, dday, that says so much. Really appreciate your honesty about everything ... hope your experience can provide some valuable lessons for the rest of us. Thanks.
So why do you guys keep thinking the same way? Your "logic" won't work on their "logic" yet we keep trying to put the round peg in a square hole. Once your learn why and how a WAW thinks and feels then you have the playbook. Listen to Sandi and Greek, they know of what they speak.
Coach, I really am taking all the advice to heart, believe me. No pursuing, no questions, no R talks, no calls, texts, emails, FB posts, nothing. And I'm GALing (baby steps ... it's new to me) and doing what I have to for me and the kids only.
Just have to vent occasionally here with a crowd that understands. My WAH hears none of it -- I'm letting him do his thing.
DanF,
You don't have to lose your feelings if you detach. You just need to focus on yourself and kids. It is about controlling yourself because you cannot control anyone else.
Your feelings for your W will still be there. It just how you deal with them that is the point of detaching. I guess is creating certain distance to keep yourself together.
So why do you guys keep thinking the same way? Your "logic" won't work on their "logic" yet we keep trying to put the round peg in a square hole. Once your learn why and how a WAW thinks and feels then you have the playbook. Listen to Sandi and Greek, they know of what they speak.
Coach, I really am taking all the advice to heart, believe me. No pursuing, no questions, no R talks, no calls, texts, emails, FB posts, nothing. And I'm GALing (baby steps ... it's new to me) and doing what I have to for me and the kids only.
Just have to vent occasionally here with a crowd that understands. My WAH hears none of it -- I'm letting him do his thing.
I understand the venting. Detaching helps you see the problem from a new perpspective. This in turn helped me see solutions.
Einstein: " We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
Smart guy, that Einstein.
Journaling:
Said few words to W yesterday morning in the kitchen. She went back upstairs to continue getting ready for work with bathroom door shut. D was still asleep in bed when I left for work, so I only got to say goodbye to S. Didn't say anyting to W as the door was closed.
Didn't hear anything from W or anyone all day. W worked a full day yesterday and today too.
Texted D's phone that I had softball and wouldn't see her until tomorrow, be good for Mom, etc.....
Went to softball game after work and called D & S after to talk to them a bit. Didn't speak to W, just the kids.
Went out with the team after the game and had a couple beers - even though I am not supposed to. I did know that I wouldn't be seeing W since she would be in bed when I got home, so I thought it would be ok. No problems.
Got ready this am and W was in kitchen when I came down. She asked me a few questions about the game. My answers were: good, no and no. Did my morning chores and said bye to D when I left for work. Everyone else upstairs with doors closed. Had to go back in for something and S was out so I said bye to him and see ya to W who was now in kitchen.
Easy not to talk when you aren't home.
Going to see kids counselor today to talk about how/what to tell the kids. I suppose we will tell them in the next few days. I know W has been wanting to tell them. I am REALLY dreading that conversation.
Now that Sir, is DETACHING.
Journaling:
Said few words to W yesterday morning in the kitchen. She went back upstairs to continue getting ready for work with bathroom door shut. D was still asleep in bed when I left for work, so I only got to say goodbye to S. Didn't say anyting to W as the door was closed.
Didn't hear anything from W or anyone all day. W worked a full day yesterday and today too.
Texted D's phone that I had softball and wouldn't see her until tomorrow, be good for Mom, etc.....
Went to softball game after work and called D & S after to talk to them a bit. Didn't speak to W, just the kids.
Went out with the team after the game and had a couple beers - even though I am not supposed to. I did know that I wouldn't be seeing W since she would be in bed when I got home, so I thought it would be ok. No problems.
Got ready this am and W was in kitchen when I came down. She asked me a few questions about the game. My answers were: good, no and no. Did my morning chores and said bye to D when I left for work. Everyone else upstairs with doors closed. Had to go back in for something and S was out so I said bye to him and see ya to W who was now in kitchen.
Easy not to talk when you aren't home.
Going to see kids counselor today to talk about how/what to tell the kids. I suppose we will tell them in the next few days. I know W has been wanting to tell them. I am REALLY dreading that conversation.
EXCELLENT!
Just make sure your answers aren't SO short ("Good," "No" and "No"), and their tone isn't such, that you're coming across as being RUDE or SNARKY. What you're shooting for is BUSY -- engaging, polite, but wouldlovetochatbuthey,lookatthetimegottarunBYE!
kwim??
Puppy
Thanks Pup! I'm trying.
She just e-mailed me to confirm our appointment today. I should wait a few hours to respond, right?
DanF,
You seem to be in a better mindset today and detaching.
Good to see you are being strong. Keep it up!
Thanks guys,
I am in a better mindset. Have been sleeping the past couple of nights, so that helps. Just read all of any chance's thread and I see parallels, so that makes me cautiously optimistic.
Responded to W, "confirmed" and then told her I plan to take the kids to the company picnic on 7/17. She said she "was thinking about doing something with the kids that weekend, but since she didn't have firm plans, if I had firm plans she would probably just stay home that week-end instead." My plans are FIRM!
Now to stay the course and hope for a positive outcome.....eventually! Patience, patience, patience.
I feel a bit more like I know what I am doing now.
Thanks all you guys and gall for all the wisdom and support! It has been a great help.
Gotta go to the kids counselor now. Talk to you soon.
Dan,
Not to burst your bubble, but............
As we note your detachment, she will too, be mindful of this. As your tatics change, hers will too.
Dan,
Not to burst your bubble, but............
As we note your detachment, she will too, be mindful of this. As your tatics change, hers will too.
Puppy
In waiting room.
Gotcha, but trying to remain positive!
These aren't tactics, they are Life Changes, right! GAL!
Thanks for caring enough to help me.
Don't have much time this am, but will give you guys an update on the meeting with the counselor later. It went pretty well, but I did miss at least 1 GOLDEN opportunity that I thought about later.
Anyway, 2 quick questions.
1) I slept in this morning and W left for work before me and took the trash to the curb. She has done it before , but I usually do it. I was thinking aobut a quick thank-you to her, but should I just let it lie? I'm thiking not saying anything is tha right approach.
2) What about my sister and W? Should I let my sister befriend her or is that kind of like cake eating for the W?
Thanks. Will post later when I have a bit more time.
1 - No. Let her get the taste of life without you she says so yearns for.
2 - What about it? Can you control what your W does? Can you control what your sister does? No. So why look like a control freak in trying to do so? Hell, use the situation to your advantage. When your sis asks you how you're doing, let her know you're doing GREAT. When she asks about the situation, simply say it's not worth discussing and then say you have to go do something, MUCH LIKE YOU WOULD TO YOUR W. This will in turn get back to your W via your sis who will also be questioning what you're up to, why you're so upbeat and busy.
Last, for the record, cake eating is when the WAS gets the bulk of what they want from OP and comes back to you for what they are not.
1 - No. Let her get the taste of life without you she says so yearns for.
2 - What about it? Can you control what your W does? Can you control what your sister does? No. So why look like a control freak in trying to do so? Hell, use the situation to your advantage. When your sis asks you how you're doing, let her know you're doing GREAT. When she asks about the situation, simply say it's not worth discussing and then say you have to go do something, MUCH LIKE YOU WOULD TO YOUR W. This will in turn get back to your W via your sis who will also be questioning what you're up to, why you're so upbeat and busy.
Last, for the record, cake eating is when the WAS gets the bulk of what they want from OP and comes back to you for what they are not.
Agree with Dday on #2. As for #1, I think a simple, VERBAL "Btw, thanks for taking the trash out this morning" is the right thing to do. Civil, common courtesy. You should be in the "treat her as you would the mailman" mode right now.
Puppy
2 - What about it? Can you control what your W does? Can you control what your sister does? No. So why look like a control freak in trying to do so? Hell, use the situation to your advantage. When your sis asks you how you're doing, let her know you're doing GREAT. When she asks about the situation, simply say it's not worth discussing and then say you have to go do something, MUCH LIKE YOU WOULD TO YOUR W. This will in turn get back to your W via your sis who will also be questioning what you're up to, why you're so upbeat and busy.
I agree, you DB your sister. They all are watching you. No drama on your part because you can handle it by yourself.
Cheers
LOL, I guess I'm just insensitive that way since I didn't have (x)W in the house for very after the 'bomb'.
Thanks DDay. Will follow your advice on this one.
I will see my sister this weekend and let her know it is ok. I just thought that W would be getting best of both worlds. Getting to D me, but still maintaining relationships she cherishes with my family. I thought maybe I should let her believe that she was going to be missing that part of her life.
Thanks for setting me straight.
I will see my sister this weekend and let her know it is ok.
Did your sister ask you if you minded? Because otherwise, it seems rather control-freaky to bestow your blessing on it.
I will see my sister this weekend and let her know it is ok.
Did your sister ask you if you minded? Because otherwise, it seems rather control-freaky to bestow your blessing on it.
Exactamundo!
Yes. I thought I posted my reply to my sister asking her not to contact W for a while. That I had not given up on the marriage yet and that I was trying to DB her.
Sister responded that she didn't want W to feel that everyone was against her, or that might make her more afraid to come back if she so chose. She also didn't want to be cut off from my kids.
I told her she would not be cut-off from my kids and that if we did end-up getting D, ther would still be time for her to mend fences.
She said she understood and would resprct my wishes not to contact W.
I told her we would talk about it this weekend when we are at my mom's house.
Getting more confused.
What is there to be confused about? You W is her own person, your sister is her own person. Nothing, zero, zip, nadda, not a 2 pound terd from a hampsters tail can you do about what they do or don't do.
The only time I ever intervined with contact between (x)W and anyone in family was when everything got going with the A and (x)W was cooking up stories to validate herself to my 82 year old grandmother and it was breaking her heart. So I calmly requested that (x)W either control what she says or not contact my grandmother at all for fear of her health.
Ok guys, here is a very tough one.
I am going to see my attorney to discuss finances and all other issues to be decided on out Temporary Hearing that will determine how things will work between now and the final divorce date. Things such as living arrangements, child placement, child support, maintenance (alimony), etc.
When my W first spoke to her attorney, the attorney wanted her to request that I be ordered out of the house to live separately. My W said no, take that request out of the paperwork, because we are planning to live together for the interim because we cannot afford to live separately at this time. (Not sure how we will afford it later then either!) That position pretty much settles child placement, but there still could be money transfer issues, I don't know at this point.
When I told her that she needs to go back to work full-time now, she said, "I can't go back to work full-time right now." I asked Why not? She said, "Because there are no full-time positions available (for her current position in our immediate area) and I am going to need to be here for the kids." I said, "We are both going to need to be here for the kids." When I mentioned this to my attorney, she said, "then your W can go out and get a part-time job to supplement her income!" I really hope the judge orders that or at least bases any payments on the income she could earn working full-time.
At the moment, I am thinking, if she really wants a D, then why don't we set this up like is would/could look after the D is final?
Depending upon what the court rules for child placement, likely 50%/50%, it is possible that I may be able to afford to buy her out and stay in the family residence. I believe that it is extremely unlikely that she could afford to stay there, barring extreme unforseen circumstances.
So, should I have my attorney ask the court to order my W out of the house, set-up placement of the children and financial payments as they might look at the end of this thing? Or is it too harsh to push her out like that? There is no guarantee that the court would order it, and I will discuss this with my attorney tomorrow, but I was hoping for your guys thought on this.
This seems pretty ruthless to me, but I can be ruthless if I have to. She says this is what she wants, right? She just doesn't want it RIGHT NOW. She wants it on her terms and for me to make it possible for her to ease into it and to have it all her way! BS. I almost can't believe that I just typed that.
Or, is it better for rebuilding the relationship to keep her at home?
Big step here........
Dan,
This is the part where you're really gonna need to listen.
When you enter those doors to that court room, this no longer becomes the breakdown of a lost love, it's a full on business transaction. Your heart and feelings for her have no place in it, beause I will guarentee you, hers won't be.
Who said having you removed from the house is stricken from the docket? Her??? BLAH!!!!
Guess what buddy? You have a job, she doesn't. How is she gonna support herself? Why do you think she won't get a job?
Ummm, no job, no income. Which means no possibility to get a place of her own. Guess who's leaving now? Ohh, and while you're at it thinking about it, where will that put YOU since YOU made the initial request and didn't back itup that she leave?
I'm telling you, it gets nasty from here.
She already has her own little inner voice asking her "how am I going to do this, how am I going to live, but I can't live like THIS anymore". And like I said, couple that with an attorney, well, like the miranda goes, any thing you say CAN and WILL be used againt YOU in a court of law.
Thanks for responding DDay. You are right, I need to take the emotions out of it. However, if the goal here is to restore the R, I want to do what works, not what I think is right?
Actually, she showed me the document that was submitted by her attorney to the court and served to my attorney and there was not a request to have me removed from the house. I suppose it could still be argued, but I think she is being genuine, albeit for her own self-interest.
She is currently working part-time and with 20 years experience she would have first, or almost first choice on any position she wants that becomes available. She knows she has to go back full-time, but says she wants to wait to help get the kids through this. However, in other breaths, she says she doesn't think this will be a big deal for them. Totally contradictory. She could also get a part-time waitress job to supplement, as she has a lot of experience doing that.
I'm nt sure what you are talking about on the initial request to leave. One day when we were arguing about OM she said if I couldn't "deal with it" I should get the F out. I told her to get the F out. Then when she filed, I asked her "Why don't you just leave now?" I don't know legally how I could have backed that up, as we own the house jointly.
You are right about the inner voice, she said almost exactly what you did above. However, what she isn't seeing is that it doesn't HAVE to be like THIS anymore, but she has to be willing to work on it and she is not.
So you are telling me to get ruthless, request that she move out and get this set-up like the divorce will look, right? Part of me thinks it would be good to live like this for a while before the divorce is final and things are set in stone. However, part of me wants to do what will work best to restore the R and I am not sure what that is at this point, but I need to decide quickly. Some of the guys on this website are being told to be friendlier and try to nurture things. Maybe my situation is more desperate and calls for more desperate measures.
Thank you so much for the perspective DDay. Deep down I know you are probably right and you haven't steered me wrong yet, but I'd like to also hear what some others think.
Sandi, Greek, Puppy, Coach? Opinions?
Thanks!
No problem.
However, I am not telling you to "be ruthless". I'm just sayin treat this like a very important business transaction, and when their is personal involvement in that transaction, you have a conflict of interest, and where there is a conflict of interest, the deal gets soured.
Secondly, I hope your right. I hope your W is going into this with a mutual, non-agressive interest.
Mine said the very same.
Then, we entered the court room. And I was handed several dockets of false accusations that I had to claw and pcik at to at least get everyother weekend with my boys as initially, I was such a "horrible" "maniplutlating" and "abusive" person, that it was an "endangerment" for me to see MY OWN KIDS unsupervised. EDIT - And for the record, (x)W stiill claims she had NOTHING to do with a No Visitation Order.
That's why I have also advised you about being confrontational. It will come back to bite you in the arse.
So yeah, all the documents already served up might look all nice and clean, but be prepared for the unexpected! It's called catching you and your attorney off guard. It's a sick twisted effen game.
If it doesn't happen that way and goes nice and clean, GREAT! However, it probably won't. And let me tell you it just sucks to ripped apart peice by piece and by the time you realized what the hell happened, you got your thumb up your rear, two sheets to the wind in a daze.
So you are telling me to get ruthless, request that she move out and get this set-up like the divorce will look, right?
All you are is a source of income in the courtroom. Since this is a business decision that can impact you for years to come then your L needs to be looking out for you. I know how hard this is but let your L do what he needs to do to protect your interests.
You are right, thanks!
Journaling:
Sorry for the ultra-long post, but here is how things went at the counselor yesterday if anyone is interested. Not sure I need comments on it, but I think I did very well due to all of the advice you guys have given me.
Counselor asks why I am here and what I want to discuss. I say I want to talk about how to tell the kids we are getting a D. I say “I don’t really want my kids to think that I want this, because I don’t, but, having said that, I want to approach this from the perspective of what is best for my kids is best for me, so I want to discuss how to go about this.”
W says that she has already talked with a counselor and pretty much already knows what to say, but that I want to blame this on her. I say I don’t want to blame, just don’t want kids to think this is what I want.
Counselor asks where we are in terms of the M and if we have seen an MC? W says yes, a few months back. How many sessions? Five sessions, but I tell the counselor that the MC was worthless. She says, it didn’t help? So I say, Absolutely not. She asks if we decided how to handle things in our last session? W says I filed for D about three weeks ago. C asks how we feel about this. So I say:
Although this is not what I want, I understand that it is not my choice. I have done everything I could for the last 5 months to make work on myself and make things better. I read 4 relationship books and am doing everything she asked of me. She has acknowledged the changes I have made and appreciates them, but none of it matters. W says she wants a D and is not willing to work on the R, so I have accepted that and am prepared to move forward. There is nothing else I can do. I have thanked her for pointing out these issues so that I can work on them to become a better person, have a better relationship with my kids and potentially better future relationships. (Thanks to all for your help with this!)
The C looked stunned!
W says she has been very stressed, wouldn’t wish this on anybody, is afraid of the hardships to come, but knows that this is what she has to do. I think she is very confused and hurting too right now. She says I don’t think she has worked on the R, but she says she has. This is where I really blew it. I should have said, How could you have been working on the R while you were having an affair with OM?? Didn’t hit me until later. Missed a golden opportunity there, but I am sure it will come up again in court.
I say I have heard ILYBNILWY, I don’t feel the way I should about my husband, we have fun together, we could be friends forever because she likes to hang out and talk with me, but I really don’t see us as being friends after this is over. C agrees to that.
Then we talk about how this will go, if it will be civil and if we will be able to agree on everything. I say I think we can agree on everything except the kids. Again, she looks surprised. I say I am fine with splitting what we have 50/50, because we both came into this relationship with nothing and she was a part of earning it all. C says you were the primary breadwinner and she took care of the kids, and that is what you agreed on. I say yes, so I am fine with it, but I am worried about our futures going forward.
I also say, W wants full child placement, with me every other weekend and I want 50% placement. Judges are doing this more and a bill is being introduced into the state govt to require it. W goes on and on about how it will be so hard on the kids, blah, blah, blah. Never mind the impact of the divorce on them, they will be fine.
C says affect on kids is based on how parents handle it and that local judges are awarding it. W says her attorney also mentioned that on days when I have the kids, she could still spend time with them until I get home from work, so it sounds like her atty is also telling her to expect this. It will absolutely kill her….
Then we talk about if I want to come in for IC with this C. I say, I would like that and then you can see my kids if they need someone? She says No, that would be a conflict of interest. I say, since I have heard that you are so good with kids, I could see someone else, because I don’t want to deprive them of the opportunity to see you if they need to. Tears welling in my eyes at this point. She says she will help us find a good counselor for the kids if needed. Someone she would send her own kids to. I say ok, lets set up a session for next week. C asks if W wants references, gives her 2 and W says she will think about it. I hope she goes.
I really feel a lot better the last few days. Thank you all so much for everything. I now know I can do this…..
Forgot the how to tell the kids part. Pretty standard. Don't blame each other. W shouldn't have to say she filed, just that we are getting a D. Answer their questions, but no more. Be prepared for reactions and watch their behavior for serious changes. Now we just have to decide when. I think the kids already know I don't want this, so I am not really worried about that anymore.
Thanks!
I am looking for a little feedback on this one if you don't mind.
So we get home from the C yesterday and kids go somewhere to play. W starts making small talk. All kinds of it, so I be polite and have a conversation with her. I don't remember all the topics she brought up, but one was how Aunt Flo had arrived already in only 21 days. Do I care about this anymore? Why is she even bothering to tell me?
So I say, you are bummin' dude. She says last few times were normal. She has been irregular for quite a while. Premenopausal stuff, along with acne, sweats, hair on her face, 1/2 of the symptions, but this has nothing to do with her decision.
Anyway, I show some empathy and I probably ended-up talking to her too much. Need to remember to walk away. I am not her friend anymore.
You have probably already answered this a couple of times, but the question is, why does she continue to tell me all this stuff? Especially about Aunt Flo??? That doesn't really impact me anymore since we are not intimate. I guess she is just trying to ease the situation and needs a friend.
Sorry for all the questions and drama.
why does she continue to tell me all this stuff? Especially about Aunt Flo???
it's a 50/50 answer, as your W is a 50/50 person right now.
Half, because she' acustomed to having these types of converasations with you.
Half, because "whoa is me".
I think that you handled the C about as well as you could. I'm glad to hear that you'll be going back. That will be more important that you know. As things progress legally, you will definitely want a C to discuss things with.
Just a tip- Your W is not getting a full time job because that will hurt her chance of getting the max amount of $ from you. I'm quite certain her L has told her that. That's also why she's going for primary custody.
The house buy out option sounds like a great option for you. Do not discuss this with your W but do talk to your L about it. It's not about revenge or getting back at her. When you think about it, this is best for her as well. You're buying her out = she has more money. She probably won't see it that way at first but she might later.
All in all. You're doing better. Hang in there and remember she's not your friend right now.
The courts in WI are SUPPOSED to base child support and spousal maintenance on earnings potential, not what you happen to be earning at the moment. Otherwise, I would quit my job and go work at McDonalds. They would say, no way. You can earn $100k and you will pay based on that no matter where you work.
Same should be true for her and I believe that it probably will be. At least that is what my attorney is indicating. I just hope it has to start NOW. No more weekdays at the beach and movies with the kids! Go to work. Although I don't like that as much for the kids, they will have to deal with it for the time being and I will have to do more with them on vacation days and weekends.
Thanks!
Too tired to write much at the moment, but when I got home tonight I went straight over to the neighbors who have been very supportive of me. They are REALLY good friends. After an hour or so, W comes walking up with 2 beers in her hand. She recently had an issue because I was talking with neighbors about our problems and she felt she was being judged. I asked neighbor wife to email her and let her know that I wasn't bagging her and they weren't judging either of us. They are both divorced.
She wrote a terrible note, so I wrote one for her instead. I didn't want W to think I was trying to poison everyone against her, which I am not, I am just seeking help. So W gets the note and is very appreciative and everyone tells me I am too soft for wanting to relieve W's feelings, but I can't help it.....
Anyway, things go well, W seems happy and is laughing and heavily involved in the conversation. She then leaves to get kids in shower and I get a text from OM's wife asking me to call her. Apparently OM is out tonight, but isn't where he said he would be. She has GPS device on his car and she wants to know where W is. I say she is here with me, so no issue there. She is very upset and I don't really know what to tell her. She say OM still has many incoming calls at the time my W goes to work in the am and believes they are still in contact, even though both deny it. I am guessing they are, but have no way to prove it. We hang up and she feels a bit better that W is not with her H, but she is still concerned.
I go home, tuck the kids in goodnight and grab some dinner very late. W is sitting on the couch and I take my dinner and another beer (quit drinking) over to the neighbor's house and say nothing to W. I stay until well after she goes to bed and then come home and type this.
I am confused as to why she came over and was so personable? Neighbors say it is all a front and she is getting ready for court and to be careful. I am not sure what to think at this point. Is DB working or are they right that she is just playing me? Neighbor says he never saw his uncle's wife so attentive as when she was getting ready to divorce him.
I really want to bust them together, but neighbors warning me of my reaction if I DO see them together. Warning the same as DDay, be careful and do not confront them. Will be used against you in court.
Not sure what is up or where to go at this point. Starting to get tired of this situation and am feeling much better about moving on. Told neighbor about meeting with IC and she said it sounded very healthy. Nobody can actually believe my attitude at this point.
Anybody have any thoughts? Looking for some direction from those in the know.
Thanks!
DDay, thank you so much for taking me under your wing. It is really unbelievable how much effort you and the others put into this site. You all are very special people to help all of us newcomers so much. However my sitch turns out, I will forever owe you a debt of gratitude. Just thinking about your commitment is making me break-down at the moment for all of the wonderful things you have done to help me. The support you guys provide for strangers is truly unbelievable. I can't even believe how far I have come in such a short time. Thank you all so much!
Trying to hang in there!
Good morning!
As I continue to get stronger, W appears to continue getting weaker. She looked pretty dragged out this morning, but appears to be holding course.
Situation continues to be dynamic.
OM's W texted me this morning and said her H admitted that he and my W HAVE still been in contact, but finally stopped 2 weeks ago - r-i-g-h-t. He said she was calling him from work, as we believed. He had incoming calls on his phone about the time my W would get to work. Admitted that W did call him from work on her off day, prior to putting down the retainer with her atty, just like I accused her of on Sunday night.
OM says W is hurt and very mad at him for staying with his W and that she has too much pride to be involved with him anymore. I agree that W is a very prideful person. Says W thinks he is crazy for staying with his W.
W and I each go to see our attys today, so that should be interesting.
Not sure where this one is going from here.
I am confused as to why she came over and was so personable? Neighbors say it is all a front and she is getting ready for court and to be careful. I am not sure what to think at this point. Is DB working or are they right that she is just playing me?
Does it matter? It shouldn't change your DB'ing efforts either way.
Again, no problem.
That said, (and here goes my blood pressure) gosh friggen damn it Dan, if
you tell one more person to e-mail, call, text, carrier pidgeon, smoke signal, cave shadow, or whatever anything to or about your W I'm getting in my truck, heading up I94 and you are gonna feel a nasty sting on the back of your head!
Especially e-mail & text which is printable and can REALLY eff things up in court! In the thick of things, I had (x)W by the balls as she had a real bad habit of sending very nasty texts, one of which she proclaimed to have just gotten done having sex with OM and was going back for seconds for example. I could have blown her out of the water in court. Unfortunately, she realized this and barged into the house and attacked me, then called the police who kept me busy in the basement as they slammed my face into the floor at gunpoint, she was able to snatch my phone, take it home and clear it's memory. It magically resurfaced the next morning, empty.
Secondly, you sit on here all day and pound out your questions. Then you go home and discuss it with the neighbors. Dan, this is NOT healthy. I understand, I was there. But, how often do you want to keep this up? I did the same friggen thing, sat on here all day, didn't do squat at work (when I actually went), went home, straight to the beer fridge and searched out the first conversation about it all, if not, drank til I cried myself to sleep. And, half the time in doing so, leaving my kids to do nothing but sit inside and watch TV haveing no idea that in a half years time, I wouldn't be seeing them AT ALL. Catch my drift? Sure there's "blow off time" and then there's OBSESSING.
As for why your W came over, well, I don't know. Maybe it's the notion of what's to occur today eating at her? Or, maybe she was in fact scoping out the situation to ensure it wasn't a defimation session of her. Or, maybe, scratch that, probably is a bit of both.
Dan, I see a very repetative pattern in your posts that I think is highly contibutory to WHY you are here. You have far too many people medaling in your business and when something comes across as something you don't particularly like, you are quick to intervine. It's a double standard, broadcasting everything to everyone, but tyring to cutoff or censor what gets back to your W.
At this point, with a 3 day weekend ahead of us, I have some homework for you:
1) CUT DOWN ON THE BOOZE. Not only is it a fogging factor for both of you to deal with the problems (been there done that), it's taking away from your kids (been there again) and, oh by the way, (x)W was as big, if not bigger drinker than me through thick and thin, oh and doing drugs, yet guess who was the one accused of being an alcoholic in court? (CUSTODY)
2) Devote this to memory: "It is what it is". Like a sports figure has certain phrases dedicated to memory when approached by the media, this is you response to ANYONE who wants to talk about you situation. It is what it is. Next question?
3) What books have you read yet? eh heh, thought so, Read one!
Take a break from here unless you need to vent something. I won't be around to answer you anyway.
4) If you have a football, baseball or motorcycle helmet, you might want to have it handy, I'm very spur of the moment these days and Kenosha ain't that far.
Thanks DDay. Will try to implement your points better than I have been.
I do appreciate KNOWING that she did call him that day though and with the info I got this morning, I feel like I know more about what is really going on and it makes me feel better about myself.
I am taking the kids to my Mom's house this weekend. Plan is to not drink more than a couple beers, swim in the pool with them, go see the fireworks and then take them fishing on Sunday morning. I am really looking forward to it!
I do know that I need to get back to work, but it is very hard with all this drama going on. I know have been obsessing about this, but talking has helped me process my feeling about the situation. I HAVE talked to too many people about it and W is not happy about it.....
I have read books, but not since I got on this website. Before this, I hadn't read a book since high school. Just newspapers and magazines. I do have a list of books that I got off of this website though, so maybe I will try one.
Thanks again and I promise to do much better this week-end. Since I will be away from W and with the kids, maybe I can forget this for a little while.
2 thoughts:
1. OM may have OW2, based on the GPS data. Keep communicating with OM's wife about this, because if you can come up with something, and communicate it to your wife, it will VERY likely be the death knell in their affair! It's just about THE most powerful thing you can hit a cheater with, ESPECIALLY the WOMAN!
2. STOP RESCUING YOUR WIFE FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF HER INFIDELITY. You are NOT doing her any favors when you "protect" her "reputation"!!!!!! In fact, by NOT allowing the NATURAL consequences to kick in, you are missing one of THE most powerful tools you have in your arsenal!
Puppy
Thanks Puppy.
Will keep up w/OM's W and see what else we can find out. She is quite a sleuth, so we may get something here.
I'm not really rescuing my W by protecting her reputation. Everyone knows what is going on. She was feeling like I was only telling my side of the story to people, but I have told them about my issues and her complaints about me also. I just didn't want her to think that I was blaming only her for our sitch. I am partly responsible too, but she is the one who refuses to wok on the R.
Talked to my L today and told her about all the dumb things I did. She was ok, but said STOP IT!
I asked her if we could request that W move out of the house at the temporary hearing so that this could replicate what the real D would look like before it is final. she said we could, but it may not be likely to happen. I have to go back next week because we didn't get done today. This will surprise W and likely make her very angry. Her initial petition to the court said we would live together until the D is final, but I think a separation may be the only way to bring her back. If not, we are that much closer to the end then anyway. Win/win. I used to think I would like to delay this as long as possible to extend my hope, but that is no way to live.
I also proposed that we argue that someone with 20 years experience should not have an entry level job and her "earnings potential", which is what child support and alimony are based on, should be based on a salary for a more advanced position. W refused to take any promotions in 20yrs because she did want to have to deal with the politics or problem that come with supervising people. While we were married, I supported her in that decision, but now that we will be D, I don't believe I should have to support that position any longer. She should get a better, higher paying job. W will likely be pissed about this too.
Pay attention here. My atty used a child support calculator based on share placement of the kids (50%/50%) and told me I would be paying $1,050 per month to W in child support. I found a calculator online and calculated $954. $100 less per month. I gave her my calculation and she is looking into why we have different numbers. Don't just go with blind faith. research whatever you can.
Also spoke to my mortgage person today to get things started on figuring out what to do with the house. She said if I was going to buy out W, there hasn't been a better time, with housing prices so low. I just hope I can swing that somehow. I talked to her for quite a while and she thinks W is nuts too. Everybody I talk to does, but maybe that is only because they are hearing my side of the story. It just all seems so unbelievable to me still.
Good luck to all with your DBing efforts.
I'm not really rescuing my W by protecting her reputation. Everyone knows what is going on. She was feeling like I was only telling my side of the story to people, but I have told them about my issues and her complaints about me also. I just didn't want her to think that I was blaming only her for our sitch. I am partly responsible too, but she is the one who refuses to wok on the R.
More importantly, nothing you did made her have an affair. That's all on her, and she owns it whether she is willing to own it or not.
Stop excusing her behavior. If she made you mad, and you punched her in the face, do you think, "I'm sorry, Baby, but I only hit you because you made me mad" would work as an excuse?
Still at my mom's today. Brought kids up yesterday, swam in neighbors pool with my chilhood friends kids also. Had a very nice time. All wen to watch fireworks together. Texted W a pic of all the kids and she said "thanx. so cute. looks like a good time. tell ur mom happy 4th."
This am, W called D's phone and talked to the kids, not me. Same as I did to her last week. Went back to neighbors pool and played with all the kids again for a bit.
Still obsessing. I was doing very well since about Monday, but am feeling very melonchaly today. Re-read DR section on Infidelity again. I understand now that W feels I committed internet infidelity. I only looked at pics/videos. No conversations with anyone. Not interested in that at all. Only interested in W. Hope it is not too late, but I fear it may be.
Still trying to put on a good front.
Happy 4th everyone and good luck to all DBers.
Ok Puppy, you were right, W's OM has another OW! Met her in Las Vegas and she lives close enough for him to go to her house. Was there on Thursday from 9pm - 2am. His W busted him and he admitted to it. She is Divorced and wants to hook up with him if he gets D! He says my W is very upset and very mad because she wants to be able to share her marital problems with him, but he has lost interest in her. He says they finally stopped talking a week or two ago. She has been calling him from her work so I can't see the phone records.
So how do I play this? So W, I understand OM has another OW. How does that make u feel? I understand you want to share all your problems with him, because you were there for him, but now he isn't there for you! You are pathetic!
Since I have screwed up so much already and there are only so many opportunities to deliver well timed darts, I want to make sure that I take full advantage of this. I think I will spend some time in my room tonight with a pad of paper and my thoughts.
Help me out guys. You are so good at this stuff.
You just make sure she knows, that she is his SECOND CHOICE, and then you let it lie.
Puppy
That's all. Do I dance around gloating in her face? Do I tell her I'm sorry to hear about her trouble? Do I tell her to wake-up, get some help and recommit to the marriage and our family? Tell her about PEA's and give her some literature. Or do I just say, I talked to OMW and she said OM has another OW, that he recently met, give her the name and address so she knows I'm not just making it up.
I htought there should be some darts to deliver, but maybe this isn't the time. I don't know if this will change her feelings about staying in the marriage or not. She may just chalk it up and say she still doesn't want to be with my anyway and is still going through with the divorce.
I was going to write-up some things I wanted to say to her and post them here first, but I haven't had time yet.
I invited some neighbors over on 4th for a couple beers and listen to some music. W sat down with us, next to me, and joined the conversation. When she went in the house the neighbors were both surprised that she came and sat down with us like nothing was going on.
Then we all went to another neighbor's for a party and to shoot off some fireworks. One of the neighbors (female) said W seemed a bit reserved. I sat next to W on the deck steps for a while. She got up for a smoke and came back and sat down next to me again. We talked a bit and things seemed to be going well, but then, they always seem that way to me, because we aren't fighting at all. Anyway, started playing some rock and roll and started singing and dancing around the deck with another guy who is in a band. Everyone was laughing and having a good time.
Then the other guy decides to take his shirt off, so I do too. I've lost 30lbs recently, so I am looking thin, but still pretty soft. Neighbor's wife told me today that I looked good with my shirt off and maybe I should walk around W that way more often. She said she noticed W looking at me. I didn't notice at all. I really didn't care, was just having a good time. W went home with the kids about 11:30 and most others left between midnight and 1am. I stayed until about 2:30 BS-ing with husband.
Things are going pretty well for me, but I still am hoping that she changes her mind. Trying not to act that way though!
Thanks everyone.
Anybody care to be any more specific than Puppy was about how to approach this? Do I just tell her the following, and then let it go? Or should I get into any R talk - only if she brings it up, right?
Hey W, got a minute? I’ve got a really good one for you that you are just going to love.
When is the last time you talked to OM? Then she will lie or not want to talk about it. Well, I talked to OMW on Monday evening and it appears that OM has OW2 now that he met a few weeks ago in Las Vegas. Her name is such and such and she lives at this address. I guess maybe Mr. wonderful isn’t quite so wonderful after all, huh?
I could really use some specific advice as to how far to take this and if darts are in order.
Thanks!
OW2 is not your problem. It sounds like you are gloating and want to rub her face in it - not productive. When she realizes the lifeboat is gone her response to you will change. Keep going about your business and doing what works.
Ok. Thanks Puppy and coach. No gloating, although I would really L-O-V-E to.
My problem is, I'm not sure what works at this point. Everything seems to remain the same no matter what happens. Maybe that means her mind really is made-up regardless of anything else. Have to stop mind reading and just keep-on with GAL.
It is getting much easier and some days I even find myself wondering if I wouldn't maybe be better-off with someone else in the end anyway. I don't believe that yet, but I do wonder.
My problem is, I'm not sure what works at this point. Everything seems to remain the same no matter what happens. Maybe that means her mind really is made-up regardless of anything else. Have to stop mind reading and just keep-on with GAL.
It is getting much easier and some days I even find myself wondering if I wouldn't maybe be better-off with someone else in the end anyway. I don't believe that yet, but I do wonder.
WTH, Dan? Did you use your super secret mind-reading powers to read my mind then post what you know I was thinking?
We are in the same place IDU.....we are in the same place.......
We are in the same place IDU.....we are in the same place.......
Yeah, well just keep your shirts on . . .
Puppy
Shirt still on!!
Sorry to ask again, but what do we search for on the "love chemicals"? PEA's and something else?
Thanks!
"PEA love lust brain addiction"
oughta do it.
Puppy
My problem is, I'm not sure what works at this point. Everything seems to remain the same no matter what happens. Maybe that means her mind really is made-up regardless of anything else.
No, your problem is you don't realize this is going to take a long time to sort it's way through, no matter the outcome. However, the more you push, get ansy and yick-yack to every Tom, Dick and Harry about it, the worse it's going to get, to say anything of 'informing' your W that OM is playing her. C'mon, a cheater being cheated by a cheater. When she finds out, ON HER OWN, or perhaps from OM's W, that oughta shed a whole new light on the wonderful world of affairs for her, wouldn't it?
Thanks for showing-up again DDay. You're right. A long time frame should be my expectation. I'm too impatient like most newcomers around here. It is what it is......
Just a quick update. I followed Puppy's advice and told W about OW2. Maybe it was a wrong move, but I didn't gloat or anything. I asked her if she had talked to OM lately and she said no. Then I said that I had talked to OMW and apparently OM has a new squeeze that he met in Las Vegas. He was at her house the other night. W said That's nice. It didn't seem to phase her at all.
Went to IC this morning and broke down while discussing the sitch. Don't feel like I got a whole lot out of it at the moment. Mostly just giving her background. Showed her W's divorce letter. Same C we both saw last week about talking to the kids.
I asked what her impressions were from our initial visit and she said this appeared to be very hard on each of us. W appears to be struggling with this too, but believes that her decision has been made and that she won't change her mind. That was particularly upsetting to me. She says this D is going to happen and I need to narrow my focus.
She asked what was most important to me now, reconciling with W, doing what is best for my kids or protecting myself in the D proceedings. Said I may get three different answers to those questions. I said I want to reconcile, but that the current strategy says protecting myself, working on my life and doing what is best for my kids are best for reconciling also.
Trying to remain positive and moving forward.
Your C sounds like an idiot. Typical "people need to do what makes them happy... crap" how r u feeling blah blah.... Run from that one. She will only support your WAW's wanting to run away to be happy. Remember your C is not an expert on your R. Unless she's a psychic she has no way to know what is going to happen.
YOU can make this as fast and as slow a process as YOU feel COMFORTABLE with. If you contest it can take up to 2 years. No court will rush a divorce if the kids are being cared for period.
Stand your ground man!! Hold the line!! Just do it with strength and honor!! Do not be a jerk be nice and matter 0f fact. Let her know you will not fold.
I fought for 2 years and got joint physical custody after all the threats and blah.. blah... in the end I had to let her go. She had moved on to some jerk that was telling her everything she wanted to hear regardless of what was best for our daughter. It reminded me of the scene in War of the worlds w Tom Cruise having to let his son go.... After you have put up a good fight, at least a year or 2 sometimes it's better to let it go... YOU have to be the one to decide that. But YOU are only starting your FIGHT my friend. Just remember to always take the higher path. Dont fight dirt w dirt. My X tried making false claims w child services n calling her school, blah... the truths all came out in the end in the form of the guardian ad litem writing a report recommending to the court that I get full custody. So in my case staying on the higher path paid off.
God Speed!!
PMA
Forgot to mention in my last post that W wants to tell the kids tomorrow night. Didn't sleep much last nigh, so I am kind of dragging today. The kids obviously know something is going on since we do things with them separately. They have asked a number of times if we are getting D, but we have been non-committal. Guess it is now time to commit. When I plan an event, I generally ask W if she wants to come along and she says no. When W plans something, the kids ask if I am coming and she says no. Maybe I need to quit inviting her? Shows more detachment?
I'm not worried anymore that the kids will think I want this, they know better than that.
I really wish we didn't have to do this. It seems to give it a bit more finality, but I know that I shouldn't be thinking that way. This is not the end. I am still only getting started.
W is planning to take the kids to the Great America amusement park the next day with a friend of hers and her kids. Hopefully they will still be able to have fun there.
W keeps planning events and spending money like she has plenty of it, but I am not going to be giving her cash for amusement. I am paying most of the bills however and I guess that is enabling.
Court date on the 13th should clear lost of things up about money issues.
Does anyone know anything about how to figure an annual variable bonus payment into CS or maintenance payments? My atty lumped it into my annual income and divided by 12 to get a monthly income and monthly CS payment. But I won't be able to pay that much each month because I get the bonus all at one, not monthly. What should I be asking/telling my atty? We should figure monthly CS on monthly income, with the variable bonus amount to equal the same % of income, but payable when I actually get it?
This one is confusing me, but that seems to be the right approach.
Suggestions from those who have experienced it?
Sandi,
I read your post on another thread about HRT and I believe that hormonal issues are also a contributing factor in my sitch. My W is premenopausal, severe acne, night sweats, hair on face, irregular and heavier cycles. I tried to talk to her about it and she says she has half of the symptoms, but refuses to believe that this can be having any impact on her feelings towards me.
She has done a little research on her own and says she will not do HRT because of the risks involved anyway. I'm ok with that, but how do I get her to at least get tested as you suggested? Maybe I am wrong and she is fine and maybe it is just me that is the problem, but wouldn't it be better to know one way or the other?
Both her mother and her sister had/have severe menopausal symptoms and her sister is on AD meds also.
On the advice of a friend, I was going to contact W's gyno about the situation, so I wrote her a letter. W snooped on my computer, found the letter and went ballistic, saying I damn well better not send the letter or contact her personal physician. This was before she filed for D, so I acquiesed to her demand in order to try to keep her happy. Maybe I should send the letter anyway?
The advice says not to be asking for outside help anymore, but I don't know how else to get her to consider this.
Any suggestions?
Drop it. Your wife doesn't want you to fix her. Her problems are her problems unless she wants your help. Focus on what you control.
Why do I keep forgetting that. DO NOT TRY TO FIX WIFE!
Thanks coach.
Why do I keep forgetting that. DO NOT TRY TO FIX WIFE!
Yeah, you have to let go of those kind of thoughts entirely. Even if your M doesn't make it, you guys have kids together, so there's a high liklihood that there's going to be some co-parenting if nothing else that has to happen, and the sooner you let your W/STBXW start solving her own problems without trying to fix them for her, the better.
Why do I keep forgetting that.
Because I'm seeing that as being a huge reason for why you are here.
Why do I keep forgetting that.
Because I'm seeing that as being a huge reason for why you are here.
You're probably right. I didn't show empathy, I tried to fix problems. I thought I was helping and it is hard for me to turn that off.......
Thanks!
You're probably right. I didn't show empathy, I tried to fix problems.
In my observation thus far, it's not so much fix, but CONTROL.
Really?
I don't think that I have tried to control her at all, perhaps until I found out about the OM in mid-May and filed for D. Then I would agree that I have tried to control the sitch.
In the past, I feel like I let her do whatever she wanted to. I never denied a request and I really didn't try to manage her life. She wanted to live where we live, keep her same job with no promotions, work part-time after we had kids. We went to movies and restaurants she wanted to go to.
I don't know, maybe I am just blind to it.
Trying to fix everything comes across as controlling. You have to let people solve their own issues if you want healthy adult relationships.
Sometimes people just share their problems because they want you to listen and are looking for validation. If they don't ask for your help specifically, it's usually better to assume they don't want your help than it is to assume they do and start telling them what they need to do.
We are gong to tell the kids tonight I guess.
Here are my notes from the counselor.
Tell them together. Tell them at a time when you would normally be together, like after dinner. Start with what they already know....mom and dad have not been getting along. Tell them we have worked on it, but can't reconcile our differences, so we have decided to get divorced. We want you to konw that we love you and this is not your fault. We will still both be spending time with you, but we don't know yet what the living arrangements will be. There is still a lot to figure out and it will be difficult, but we just have to do our best. Do you have nay questions?
Something like that anyway. I am really dreading going home tonight.
Trying to fix everything comes across as controlling. You have to let people solve their own issues if you want healthy adult relationships.
Sometimes people just share their problems because they want you to listen and are looking for validation. If they don't ask for your help specifically, it's usually better to assume they don't want your help than it is to assume they do and start telling them what they need to do.
Right, I now realize that is what women are doing after reading all these relationship books. Wish I would have read some of them earlier. They should be required reading for anyone getting married. I was just trying to do what I thought was right.
Thanks for the feedback!
My heart and prayers are with you, Dan.
Dan,
You tell your neighbors/friends to e-mail your W that they nor you are bashing her.
You tell your sister not contact/console your W.
You nearly tell and think you should still have told your W's doctor about her own problems (co-incidently, how would you have liked it if she had told yours, I don't know, your balls don't look right and scheduled a prostate screening on your UNKNOWN behalf?) .
See a pattern here?
Dan,
You tell your neighbors/friends to e-mail your W that they nor you are bashing her.
You tell your sister not contact/console your W.
You nearly tell and think you should still have told your W's doctor about her own problems (co-incidently, how would you have liked it if she had told yours, I don't know, your balls don't look right and scheduled a prostate screening on your UNKNOWN behalf?) .
See a pattern here?
Yes. But that all happened recently. I never acted this way before the A or filing for D.
I wanted to talk to the doctor because I was/am concerned about W's health and to try to save our M. If Sandi is right about HRT and the effect reduced hormones might be having on W's "feelings for me", perhaps this is a contributing factor to the sitch that W is refusing to consider? I was looking for educated guidance.
I will leave it alone and stop trying to control everything.
Thanks DDay.
So we told the kids tonight after dinner.
First question from W when I walk through the door is "so are you ok telling the kids tonight?" I say "Yeah, whatever." She finishes cooking dinner, we all eat and D wants to go outside to play with friends. W call her back and says, "So you guys know that Mom and Dad have been sleeping in different rooms because we haven't been getting along, right? well, we have decided to get a divorce." At this point, my D throws a crumpled-up napkin in her face. W continues "We both love you very much and want you to know that this isn't because of anything you did. We don't know all of the details, but for now, we are all going to be living in the same house." S asks, "What's the problem?" W says "Just adult problems. Mom and Dad don't love each other like a husband and wife should, so we have decided that this is best. Dad, do you have anything to add?" So I ask if they have any other questions and tell them that I am giving them a pad and paper to write down any questions they think of so we can talk about them when we have the chance. The kids seem normal and then go outside to play.
I really HATE W right now for doing this to our family and I want to tell it to her face. I want her to feel what I am feeling. I don't even want to look at her anymore.....
First question from W when I walk through the door is "so are you ok telling the kids tonight?" I say "Yeah, whatever."
Boy, I am just hoping that sounds less like a pouty teenager in real life than it does reading it
Mom and Dad don't love each other like a husband and wife should, so we have decided that this is best. Dad, do you have anything to add?"
Umm yeah, you don't speak for me. You can tell the kids how you feel, but not how I feel, OK?
Trying to fix everything comes across as controlling. You have to let people solve their own issues if you want healthy adult relationships.
Sometimes people just share their problems because they want you to listen and are looking for validation. If they don't ask for your help specifically, it's usually better to assume they don't want your help than it is to assume they do and start telling them what they need to do.
I agree with TimeHeals (is the sky falling??)
It's usually best to say something like...if you need anything I'm here for you.
Telling the kids sucks. Just remember in the up coming days if they have questions to be honest with them (as honest as you can- no out right lies, but omitting info is ok). Even if one asks if you still love mommy.
Short, simple, honest, to the point answers that only answer the question asked- don't go spouting sermons.
Thanks IDU. I had to leave for a while tonight so I didn't break down in front of the kids.
This is too hard. Right now I feel like I can't wait until it is over and move on. I don't know if I can deal with living with W for another 6-9 months until this is over.
Just don't know if I want to do it.
I would have made the wife own the divorce and not make it seem like a joint decision. If she wants then the kids should know that its her decision!
I know. But childrens counselor said not to do that. They already know anyway.
DanF,
Sometimes it seems there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I've suffered like you trying to save my M. It's tough when only one person is committed to working on the issues. It's taken me 4 months to realize that I need to let go and really move forward without W.
I like you can't stay in the same house with W while she is enjoying life without me. I need that separation to start over and I really believe the minute she leaves I can start healing properly.
I've worked hard to try and keep the house and soon the dream may become reality. I hope you can find a solution with your living situation. We deserve a better quality of life.
Well Dan,
On a positive note, ATLEAST she opted to tell the kids.
Mine were just subjected to her immediately living with OM, and "it's ok because you know him".
Well Dan,
On a positive note, ATLEAST she opted to tell the kids.
Mine were just subjected to her immediately living with OM, and "it's ok because you know him".
Wow! That is awful.
Thanks to all for your words of support. They do so much to keep my spirits up.
Trying to hang in there........
S got sick last night. W and kids were supposed to go to amusement park today, but that is off now. W was up all night with S sleeping on the loveseat.
Punishment for a W who calls herself a strict catholic, but never goes to church, kids aren't baptised, is divorcing me and destroying her family?
Probably not, but one can't help but wonder.......
Hey, Dan
You are in a spot that we never, ever thought we would be in. I admire your strength in handling it the "right" way.
I don't know what else to add. Just to stay focused on your kids and being a role model to them. Show them how to be strong and how to behave with dignity and respect even though they know that mom is wrong. IDK, let them be mad at her. Don't defend her to them other than letting them know she still loves them, too.
Anyway, hang in there. You have a lot of people here pulling for you and offering our support. Let it out here as much as you need to and let your W see only that you are "fine" with it. You are ready to move on and deserve better.
And you do!
I would have made the wife own the divorce and not make it seem like a joint decision. If she wants then the kids should know that its her decision!
I'm so sorry, Dan. Just try to be there for your kids (as I know you will be), 1000% right now.
Puppy
S is still sick. I went into the house tonight and all is dark. S sleeping on couch and W on love seat. I touch the back of her head and she wakes up. Why don't you go to bed I ask? She says she told him she would stay with him for a few hours. I touch the back of her head a few more times and it makes me very sad. I'm crying as I write this. I can't believe this will be gone soon.
Apparently she has been talking with the kids about living arrangements. She told them it will probably be 50/50, which I never thought she would accept. She also told them that I can have the master bed and she will take the spare. She always loved the water bed, it's always warm. Check in later.
Hi dan, I just read your last few posts. I am sorry. First, the counsoler is wrong. Puppy is right. I would like to storngly suggest that you have another family metting. You and your wife need to use "I statments". "I don't believe d is the answer to our problems" "I want my family to be happy" "I disagree with your mother" "I love you very much" "I want mommy to be happy"....do the right thing and do not let fear control you.
Do not be a pussy like I was. Stand up against your w for what you believe. You will gain her respect, look more attractive to her, and make her angry. Do not fear her anger.
Journaling:
D asked if this was W's idea. I told her I didn't want to talk about that, but she kept pressing. I said you already know. She wants me to confirm her suspicions, but she knows. She was also asking about how the furniture will be split-up. Will the new living room tables go with the new furniture? All this stuff is in sets and the new stuff goes together and the old stuff in the basement goes together. I can't believe she is even thinking about these things. I told her we will have to figure it out.
She asked who is keeping the house and I said I didn't know if either of us could afford it on our own. She said she doesn't want to move and would be willing to sell her stuff and give me her money if it would help. I told her that was a very nice offer, but it wouldn't make any difference. Then she volunteered S's $300. I told her we would find a good place to live no matter what. Maybe even a place, smaller, but that would let us fish and swim right from our own dock. She said that would be the only way she would want to move.
She said W told them they could keep the Xbox at my house and the Nintendo Wi at her house, since that is something she might actually play with them.
D said W told her she thought this would be over in 2 months! That must mean she thinks we will be able to agree on everything in mediation and not have to go to trial. I thought this was going to take 6-9 months. Have to get moving on getting a home value to see if I am going to be able to afford to stay or not.
Feeling that she is pretty set on this happening. I don't feel like anything I am doing is bringing her closer. She is going to a Milwaukee Brewers game with her friends from work today. She is out for a walk now. She has plenty to do. She is DBing me!
I really starting to believe that she isn't going to change her mind and that this IS going to happen and that I will not be ready to move on, but she will. My only hope is that once it is done and we are separated, she will reconsider. Either that or I will just have to find the strength in myself to move on without her.
I'm not feeling very good about things this morning. I saw her, but we didn't talk. Kids want me to take them fishing, so I am going to, but I really feel sick to my stomach at this point.
Got to get ready to go fishing. Talk to you later.
Journaling:
D asked if this was W's idea. I told her I didn't want to talk about that, but she kept pressing. I said you already know. She wants me to confirm her suspicions, but she knows. She was also asking about how the furniture will be split-up. Will the new living room tables go with the new furniture? All this stuff is in sets and the new stuff goes together and the old stuff in the basement goes together. I can't believe she is even thinking about these things. I told her we will have to figure it out.
She asked who is keeping the house and I said I didn't know if either of us could afford it on our own. She said she doesn't want to move and would be willing to sell her stuff and give me her money if it would help. I told her that was a very nice offer, but it wouldn't make any difference. Then she volunteered S's $300. I told her we would find a good place to live no matter what. Maybe even a place, smaller, but that would let us fish and swim right from our own dock. She said that would be the only way she would want to move.
She said W told them they could keep the Xbox at my house and the Nintendo Wi at her house, since that is something she might actually play with them.
D said W told her she thought this would be over in 2 months! That must mean she thinks we will be able to agree on everything in mediation and not have to go to trial. I thought this was going to take 6-9 months. Have to get moving on getting a home value to see if I am going to be able to afford to stay or not.
Feeling that she is pretty set on this happening. I don't feel like anything I am doing is bringing her closer. She is going to a Milwaukee Brewers game with her friends from work today. She is out for a walk now. She has plenty to do. She is DBing me!
I really starting to believe that she isn't going to change her mind and that this IS going to happen and that I will not be ready to move on, but she will. My only hope is that once it is done and we are separated, she will reconsider. Either that or I will just have to find the strength in myself to move on without her.
I'm not feeling very good about things this morning. I saw her, but we didn't talk. Kids want me to take them fishing, so I am going to, but I really feel sick to my stomach at this point.
Got to get ready to go fishing. Talk to you later.
I don't like how your "tell the kids" meeting went down. I highlighted in RED the matters that should have been addressed but were not, for your children still have basic questions. Plus, reading back through your other posts, your contribution to that meeting seemed to be "Whatever" and that's all.
When Coach and I told our children, he put me right out there on the spot by myself. I had to tell the children that I was leaving, where I was going, where they would be, that I was divorcing their father and that he did not want it this way. I had to say the truth to my children and Coach was there to call me on anything that was not aligned with the truth of the matter. He made it known to me before hand that there would be none of this "Mom and Dad think this is the best thing right now for the family" or blech anything else like that. It had to be the truth and it had to be from me. When I said it all, he asked our children, "Do you have any questions for me?" and he fielded those questions - truthfully (age appropriately). He was the opposite of "whatever" in his disposition. He looked, sounded strong and in control of himself. In comparison, I looked like the weenie.
I think you need a re-do on that talk - for your children's sake more than anything. It is impossible to eliminate insecurities for kids at a time like this, but minimizing them is attainable.
Clarity.
Greek
Dan, you sound like you don't care if you get D. I have to clarify the truth with my kids regularly. MsR2C likes to spin things. Age appropriate truth to your kids isbest for them. Example: s9 asked me "what is a pedifile"...I thought for a few seconds and then said "someone who touches someone iinapropriately". He said "oh". I waited a bit and asked where he heard that. He replied "family guy". I put a stop to his access to FG...do you want your kids to speak the truth? You are their role model......
Thanks guys.
When W asked if I was ok with telling the kids, I said, "Ok, whatever you yant." which is pretty much how our relationship has always been. I have always let her do what she wanted to do, even though she says she never got to. I am struggling very much with this telling the kids thing. I have read a lot of articles and talked to many people, including a children's psycotherapist, who say it is best not to blame one another for the D. I know you guys disagree and I also think it lets W off the hook a bit, but I really do want what is best for my kids. I can find another spouse, but these will always be my kids. I've been trying to live by R2C's motto. Maybe I will try to have another session where we get more to the truth, but they really already know. I hear you guys, I am just torn.
Also, we don't have answers to many of these questions like where we are going to live, or how long this will take. I was told today that it has to be a minimum of 4 months from our first hearing, which is on Tuesday.
R2C, I do care. I do not want to get a D, but lately I have been feeling like it is inevitable. I know I have to stop those thoughts. This is still not over. "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! This isn't over until WE say it's over." Words to live by in this case.
Thanks to all for your help.
Journaling:
Turned out to be a different day than we expected. We decided to wait and go fishing later in the day, when we might have better luck, so I took S11, golfing for 9 holes in the late morning. While golfing, my brother calls and says he has 4 free tickets to the Brewers game, which is where W is also going. I tell him, we are in!
After golf, I take S to local carnival and meet up there with D9, who is with the neighbors. They go on a bunch of rides and I talk with the neighbor lady. She has had some conversations with W, and in May, she says she had a conversation with W where W said she would be willing to live the way we were for a couple of years even. Then less than a month later, she files for D? I wonder what changed her mind so quickly? Maybe OM, who now won't leave his W? This is crazy to hear.
We leave the carnival and go to my brother's to pick him up for the game. We get there early and watch batting practice and I grab a ball that is hit into the stands. The kids are very excited about that. W texts me and asks if the kids are having a good time. Of course they were. I waited an hour before texting her back. I said "No, are you? Where are your seats?" She tells me which section and it is only 2 sections from where we are sitting. She asks where our are. I wait a while to text back and actually see her walk into the stands and to her seat. She is going with a bunch of people from work.
I texted her "I'm watching you." and she says, "Where are you?" I say "2 sections over." She asks "Which way?" I played with her for a little while longer and then she spotted us and came over to where we were and sat down for about an inning. She tells me S called her a liar earlier for telling him that we both wanted the D. He had asked about it earlier in the day, similar to D. When she came over to sit by us, he was angry with her and told her to leave because he wanted to spend time with his Dad and Uncle. W then went back to sit with her work friends. Too many are divorced or single. I think they are bad influence on W.
Stayed until the end of the game and the Brewers beat the Pirates. We had a great time. Took my brother home and came back to our house. Kids say they are surprised that we beat Mom home since my brother lives 20 minutes in the opposite direction. I ask them why they are surprised and tell them that Mom is probably "going out". One of the few things she actually likes to do. I put kids to bed and logged in here. We have been home about 40 minutes now and W is still out. I don't expect her to be home until VERY late.
Time will tell.
I am taking the kids to the Renisance Faire in Bristol tomorrow with another couple and their son. Free kids weekend and a discounted ticket for me. Only $12 for all 3 of us to get in. It should be another good day for us!
Talk to you all soon.