I am new to this site. I have read DR and multiple other books, as well as having 2 phone sessions with a DB coach. My H is a WAS. We are both 30, been married only 2 years. Broke up twice before getting engaged, then 9 months into our marriage, he dropped the bomb that he didn't want to be married anymore. Never really moved out, but did stay with family/friends for a while before deciding that he wanted to change. Diagnosed with adult ADHD, attended counseling on his own and eventually the 2 of us together. Things got back to good and I learned to heal the hurt he'd caused. Time passed, I pursued him, seeking assurance of his love, he withdrew. This is a recurring thing with us. In November 09, I told him I felt we were on different pages - we'd been talking about a home and starting a family (we have no children), and he changed his mind, which scared me so I began seeking assurance. Nothing really resolved, but tension between us for several months until early January he again dropped the bomb. Said it would be better for both of us in the long run, he'd lost faith in our relationship, that he just didn't have it in him to fight for us anymore. I have owned up to my responsibilities in getting us here, I have been critical and acted resentfully and made him feel like nothing he ever did was good enough. I have apologized and asked for a chance to make the same changes he wanted to make in himself last year. I am sorry, he is sorry. We are both heartbroken. He still insists this is the only option. He has not moved out yet but plans to look at apartments this weekend. He also just got a new job an hour away that he starts a week from Monday. I am (as everyone else here seems to be) completely devastated. We have had our problems and our ups and downs and sometimes it's a roller coaster ride, but I have never questioned our commitment to each other, nor have I ever doubted that we weren't right for one another.
I have read, researched, made changes, kept my calm, said all the right things, talked to a coach, prayed and prayed and prayed again...and I still feel so hopeless. How do you keep the hope going when the most important thing in your life is heading out the door? He says we should split now before we have kids because he doesn't want to battle over custody later...but there has been no infidelity. No lying, no sneaking around. No lack of intimacy, no weeks without speaking, no days without doing things together. He is my best friend and I don't know how to keep up with hoping that my DB steps are going to work when he keeps saying he's done.
I'm not sure how you are DB'ing when you are so in contact with him. Disappear from him. Focus on yourself in the meantime. I'm not sure what's wrong with you but whatever it is, it's what wasn't working. Time to do the opposite. You say you are hopeless. Hope will only come when you come to the realization that you can live without him. I was hopeless and felt tremendous despair. Then while I was working out one day one of the divorced mom's in town flirted with me. I have known this woman for 5 years because our boys are good friends and she never gave me a second thought. But while I was walking around the gym positive and full of life, practically glowing (while at home my wife sat, not loving me, and dreaming of her fantasy life without me), this woman walked up to me gave me a pretty extended hug (she had never hugged me before) and then talked to me for 15 minutes. That was when I realized that no matter what I will be ok as long as I continue with the new me. The "positive confident upbeat and happy to be alive" me. And I went home and told my wife that I will be ok no matter what. She was baffled and said I know you will. And I said "What you think doesn't matter, *I KNOW* I will. And that's when I offered to start looking for apts for her. Not what I wanted obviously, but I did it anyway. And it helped tremendously in changing her view of me. I wouldnt have gotten to that point if I hadn't truly tried to make permanent positive changes in my life. MY wife doesn't say she loves me yet, and wont for a long time, but she's still here. And if she leaves, I know that I will be just fine! Sure it will hurt, but I have been hurt before and survived.
Diagnosed with adult ADHD, attended counseling on his own and eventually the 2 of us together.
You or him? If it is him, I can relate...having attention problems means that many things that need attention, including sex, can be missing something unintentionally while still making him/you happy or satisfied (otherwise known as unaware...or oblivious!)
Things got back to good and I learned to heal the hurt he'd caused. Time passed, I pursued him, seeking assurance of his love, he withdrew. This is a recurring thing with us. In November 09, I told him I felt we were on different pages - we'd been talking about a home and starting a family (we have no children), and he changed his mind, which scared me so I began seeking assurance.
I read a book by Patricia Love ("How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It"). If he is the ADHD person, you might be feeling insecure by accident and he might not be able to see why. I don't blame him for not wanting kids with a rocky M. Would you want to be pregnant while he/you come to deal with ADHD, possibly meds, and more?
He has not moved out yet but plans to look at apartments this weekend. He also just got a new job an hour away that he starts a week from Monday.
Maybe you could let him know you want to move with him if he wants you too. The worst thing my W did was making me feel that the damage was done and that she didn't see hope in the M. After that, separation became easy.
I have read, researched, made changes, kept my calm, said all the right things, talked to a coach, prayed and prayed and prayed again...and I still feel so hopeless.
In another book, I was reminded to pray, but not to blame God for our personal mistakes. You mentioned being critical. Try being supportive. He doesn't want kids yet, let him know you'll wait one/two/three years before rediscussing it. If he is the one with ADHD, he needs a wife that can help him become better by filling in the gaps in his life where he struggles, not by telling him to be better (if you do this.
I know you feel you said all the right things and you may have. But isn't how we react/respond/interpret part of communication?
No lying, no sneaking around. No lack of intimacy, no weeks without speaking, no days without doing things together. He is my best friend and I don't know how to keep up with hoping that my DB steps are going to work when he keeps saying he's done.
Let him know what you are sure of. It is hard to make a decision, D can almost be running away from a decision making it an easy choice. Maybe there is something else bothering him but he's afraid to say it.
I hope I don't sound too much like I'm defending him - you seem very hurt and have the right to be feeling that way. I know what my W did/has been doing that didn't help and I want to encourage you to re-evaluate what messages you might be sending today.
'God's luck' helping you being patient...
Diagnosed with adult ADHD, attended counseling on his own and eventually the 2 of us together.
You or him? If it is him, I can relate...having attention problems means that many things that need attention, including sex, can be missing something unintentionally while still making him/you happy or satisfied (otherwise known as unaware...or oblivious!)
he was diagnosed with ADHD. he does constantly crave social interaction and other types of stimulation, but even leading up to him wanting to separate, sex has never been a problem. in fact, i usually want it more than he does.
Things got back to good and I learned to heal the hurt he'd caused. Time passed, I pursued him, seeking assurance of his love, he withdrew. This is a recurring thing with us. In November 09, I told him I felt we were on different pages - we'd been talking about a home and starting a family (we have no children), and he changed his mind, which scared me so I began seeking assurance.
I read a book by Patricia Love ("How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It"). If he is the ADHD person, you might be feeling insecure by accident and he might not be able to see why. I don't blame him for not wanting kids with a rocky M. Would you want to be pregnant while he/you come to deal with ADHD, possibly meds, and more?
i did pick up that book and read it front to back in one night. it's made me see things from an entirely new perspective. but i often am guilty of forgetting that his brain doesn't function the same way mind does. and we both talked about a family, up until about november, when he suddenly changed his mind. even if he came back tomorrow, no way would i think about kids for at least a few years.
He has not moved out yet but plans to look at apartments this weekend. He also just got a new job an hour away that he starts a week from Monday.
Maybe you could let him know you want to move with him if he wants you too. The worst thing my W did was making me feel that the damage was done and that she didn't see hope in the M. After that, separation became easy.
he put a deposit on a place yesterday. he has made it clear he does not want me to move with him. he has also made me feel that the damage is done and he saw no hope in us. he actually told me he'd lost faith in our marriage.
I have read, researched, made changes, kept my calm, said all the right things, talked to a coach, prayed and prayed and prayed again...and I still feel so hopeless.
In another book, I was reminded to pray, but not to blame God for our personal mistakes. You mentioned being critical. Try being supportive. He doesn't want kids yet, let him know you'll wait one/two/three years before rediscussing it. If he is the one with ADHD, he needs a wife that can help him become better by filling in the gaps in his life where he struggles, not by telling him to be better (if you do this.
i don't blame god at all...i just feel like my prayers aren't being heard. i have been critical, and have done a 180. he just got a new job last week. i was nothing but supportive and excited. he leaves the house and doesn't tell me where he's going i tell him to have a nice time and don't ask another question. but i've told him already that i'm willing to wait 3-5 years on kids. i'm just worried about my ability to conceive and i'd be 35 by then and fear it may take me 5 years of trying (it took my mother 8).
I know you feel you said all the right things and you may have. But isn't how we react/respond/interpret part of communication?
good point. i guess i just mean i feel like i'm following the steps and the advice of my coach pretty closely.
No lying, no sneaking around. No lack of intimacy, no weeks without speaking, no days without doing things together. He is my best friend and I don't know how to keep up with hoping that my DB steps are going to work when he keeps saying he's done.
Let him know what you are sure of. It is hard to make a decision, D can almost be running away from a decision making it an easy choice. Maybe there is something else bothering him but he's afraid to say it.
it's sort of his M.O. to run away from decisions...that's more or less why we've broken up multiple times, including once after marriage. he says this isn't an impulse decision, but i don't buy that he honestly thinks D is easier than working on our M.
I hope I don't sound too much like I'm defending him - you seem very hurt and have the right to be feeling that way. I know what my W did/has been doing that didn't help and I want to encourage you to re-evaluate what messages you might be sending today.
no worries. after all, you're only hearing my side of the story, right?
'God's luck' helping you being patient...
has anyone else experienced a rocky start to their M? as i said, this is the 2nd time in 2 years my H has wanted to separate, and we broke up 2 times before getting married. in his eyes, that means we just aren't meant to be together.
does a rough start necessarily mean a rough finish? i want to get to stage 4 of the marriage map, but my H has said he does not want to work on this anymore. when i say rough, i mean we have had lots of ups and great times together, but he says it should be "easier" for us to solve conflict without the breakups...
thoughts?
ps i mean i want to get to stage 4 someday...i know those are the best years of marriage and are generally reserved for those who have put their time into really making their marriage work.
ps again, i have NEVER initiated a breakup, i may raise questions about where we are in our M, but i've never suggested separation or D, just thought we had some things to work on (like any normal M does)...
i know in the past he's acted impulsively and broken up with me totally out of the blue (including 9 months into our marriage), but he says this is not an impulse and that he's been thinking about this for at least 2 months now.
also, has anyone tried a divorce support group? i found one via meetup.com and have a meeting next tuesday. the meeting is facilitated by a family lawyer who offers legal advice during the meetings, and of course is attended by people either considering D, going through a D, or recovering from D.
ugh...why am i putting in all this work when my WAH just gets to walk away? kinda frustrating to have to do all the work with the other person just wants to quit.
I belong to an "in person" divorce support group and I really like it very much. My C suggested it to me. The people are great and I am not sure I would have survived without it.
Why not give it a try? If nothing else it might help you and at this point that is the most important thing!
thanks, CG. i've actually been to this group once before when my H wanted to separate back in Sept. 2008. i met a really nice girl there who was going through the EXACT same thing i was, so it was nice to connect with someone in person. it was also nice to hear that other people had it way worse than me - i don't mean that in a nasty way, but it did make me grateful that i wasn't going through what some of the others there were - like the poor woman who's ex had taken their children to another state and because of D laws she had been unable to get them back or see them in months!
on another note, i'm keeping up with my GAL-ing...but i will admit i've been checking my phone and my email inbox at least every hour. just hoping. i know i'm being pathetic but i MISS HIM SO MUCH.
after not hearing from my H all day (and no contact from me), he finally texted about an hour ago and just said he hoped the dog and i were ok and he'd see me tomorrow. my 180? normally i would have texted him back right away. i'm going to do my 2 mile run at the gym and then i'll respond with a quick thanks for checking in.
tiny victories, right?
guess not so much of a victory...ran into our neighbor tonight in my building. the neighbor who's couch my H has been sleeping on. turns out my H is not staying with him anymore but is sleeping at his new apartment. my neighbor didn't want to tell me. i don't even know what he's sleeping on, i still have all the furniture, he must have borrowed an air mattress from the neighbor.
i'm so sad if that's the case that he's sleeping in an empty apartment on an air mattress when he could be on the couch here. why does he feel the need to punish or torture himself by living in that situation before even moving furniture? that breaks my heart to think of him there alone. but i didn't call or reach out, other than to respond to his text about our lunch tomorrow.
had my sister and her new BF over tonight...it was fun until the second they walked out the door and i was left with an empty apartment and a hole in my heart. i miss him soooooo much. it gets harder and harder every day to keep up my hope and optimism.
When my W and I separated, I was sleeping in the master bedroom (her insistence) with the bathroom attached. Needless to say, I was up there alone a lot. It gave me time to clear up my thinking, do some reading, and really de-stress from the previous years/months of fighting. During that time, I tried to remember who I wanted to have ‘grown up to be’ and where I went off that path.
I also got myself into some trouble by imagining my life remarried.
While your H being alone can open doors, it also can shut some, too. When making decisions, someone with ADHD needs a calm, non-judgemental place to do that in his/her head. When you are separated, I don’t know how you can share a bed. Isn’t the couch just an insult to sleeping together – almost more stress, not less. There have been days I’ve slept there to get some reflective time, but every day for a few weeks…not likely going to be very good.
Isn’t he making a clear statement – he really doesn’t feel that things are solvable right away, if at all.
Be yourself, the spouse you want to be for him. Be open, honest, and even here you might want to not get into the habit of letting that optimism become crushed. Doesn’t putting it on paper sometimes make it seem more permanent? With a lunch tomorrow, you seem stressed and nervous. Let it go. The solution you want might not come today, it may get worse, first. What’s that phrase, “the calm before the storm”… it is after a storm new seeds and old ones both grow and take new roots. And yes, some die, too. Why worry about things that aren’t in your control? Enjoy the moment and plan for tomorrow.
Have you decided what to order for lunch?
thanks, OTM, i get what you're saying. i'm doing my best to let him be alone and not force my needs on him right now. he wrote me earlier this week saying he hasn't slept more than 3 or 4 hours a night for several weeks and he starts a new job on monday (a senior level position to boot) and he felt that his own apartment would allow him the space to get some rest and be able to focus on this new job.
i know i can't control what is going to happen but that still doesn't stop me from wanting to control it. i KNOW he has legal separation papers drawn up and i KNOW he is going to move his things out this weekend. i keep going from closet to closet to his dresser drawers, just looking at all his things in them, because i know they won't be there much longer. sad? pathetic?
i guess it's just that in my mind, this is SUCH a resolvable issue. i truly do understand how he could feel like it's not but i also feel like he's just convinced himself of that because he feels like he's failed. i am going to do my best to be the spouse i want to be for him when i see him tomorrow. i'm actually just excited to see him, it was saturday when i saw him last and i just miss him so much still, i know it will take a lot to control myself from reaching out to touch him every 5 seconds.
we're having sushi. i always get a crunchy albacore roll. no avacado.
and edamame. yum.
In a strange way, I can feel your grieving and understand it, but partly for the opposite reason. If it hasn’t been clear, in some ways but not all, I’m in your H’s position but I don’t have a wife that seems to be fighting for me – maybe it is all perception.
When I look at my W’s clothes, her, and memories of her, I am filled with a flood of guilt for thinking about D, remorse (both for the marriage and for considering leaving it), and sadness to have hurt and be hurting a person who I care about and our kids. Still, would you settle for a H that cared for you, but didn’t fully want to be around you very often? I don’t think my W could – can you?
It is a very guilty feeling to be trying to make someone and oneself happy while thinking (or having thought) about ending that very same relationship. The first time I seriously looked at my R, as do many couples, is around the 3rd or 4th year. It was also in my 4th year I got an ADHD diagnosis, too. A diagnosis changes a man’s view on himself as a person, as a man, a provider, and more. Having finished university and more, I didn’t feel I lost opportunities because of it; I’m not sure how your H feels about it and how it might impact his new job. Can you imagine why he (and I) have felt at times the need to get away to focus on just one thing. An escape to a lower stress level can be very attractive. Isn’t fixing something more stressful than leaving it?
I completely understand his point of view, from what you said, that he felt he cannot truly be accepted by you for who is and who he believes he will become. My W thinks things are resolvable but it would be a ‘hard, uphill battle’. I would agree that’s true for her and perhaps that is always true for the S of someone with the GIFT and STRUGGLE of ADHD... There have been days my W said that she thinks everything will be fine, and then later on said that I ‘hadn’t changed’. The latter is the message I hear most often. She can stop saying it, but I think it would be at least a few years before I could believe it! My W does understand adult diagnosed ADHD, but that isn’t the same as really getting how that impacts a worldview, relationships, and decision making.
For me, I yearn to struggle for a woman that I was sure was the person I would be (hopefully) in Paradise with, but I do not feel that with my W. I know I’ve had doubts from day 3 of my relationship with my W, but a month into my marriage I had a wonderful daughter born, so I stayed in the marriage hoping for the best. Five kids later, I have to say that I can’t help keeping those thoughts down. And that is the other side of the coin, isn’t it? Marriage is forever…so convincing your H through your actions might be the best way to show that you might be the person he’d regret ever leaving. He also might be thinking that your past history shows that staying was impulsive. Thinking something doesn’t make it right, but it can make the thought very stuck in the brain!
I might be personalizing when I’m writing because of my own ADHD, so take my thoughts with caution – I really think you should love and enjoy your feelings of love for him unless a D does actually finalize or unless you decide one day that he isn’t good enough to stay with. Think forever, he probably is – he might be exaggerating this thought, too – I’m sure he love things that are new and exciting as do most people with ADHD. I don’t know how to gauge it, but maybe you could start ‘dating’ him again in a month, even if you separate tomorrow. Go out places, have fun and show him the more confident, positive and motivating person you are becoming. You know…if you had a mind reading device, you really could communicate with your H much better…maybe there’s one on EBay?
Anyhow – I hope this helps you get up tomorrow and look forward to your H finding himself. I truly hope it is with you and he ‘comes to his senses’ soon.
thanks, OTM. your words are very insightful and appreciated. i know when he got diagnosed in the fall of 2008 that it was hard for him (he'd been diagnosed as a child) to hear, but at the same time, a relief that he could put a name to what was going on in his head all the time.
he has made a lot of mistakes (so have i!) and been an imperfect human being (as have i), but i would never ever say he wasn't good enough to stay with and that i didn't want him to be my forever. as you said, ADHD is a gift (oh my god, he's SO creative...and NEVER boring) and a challenge, and it can be very challenging to the non-ADHD spouse. i thought i had a better handle on it after he was diagnosed and i let things slide and i was more cognizant of what was going on in his head and i was also more appreciative of the efforts he was making. but time passed and i honestly forgot that his brain was different from mine and i began to pick at small things and seek reassurance and i know now that for someone with ADHD, it's even harder to take criticism than it is for those without.
my DB coach said that for someone who's dealt with ADHD their whole lives, they live with a constant fear of not being good enough, being told they are not keeping up, or are constantly called out for what they are doing that is wrong. and i know that in our M, my husband has felt that way (although i think he distorts his memory, as people feeling so much negative emotion tend to do) - that i focus only on what he does that is WRONG, instead of appreciating his strengths and even for him to FEEL that way breaks my heart, because i want my H to know every day that i think he is an amazing, courageous, brilliant person.
the thing that has been especially hard for me over the last year is his slow sinking back into what his IC called "self-medicating" - H currently is not on meds for ADHD and doesn't really seem to need to be (although i'm not a doctor) - but he does drink a lot (more than i think he's willing to admit) and he does smoke pot on a daily basis. both have driven me over the last few months to push him more and more to lighten up on both of those, but obviously i approached those things the wrong way. i felt like the more "grown up" i was getting and the more ready i was for things like a house and a family, the more he was going out, drinking with his buddies, and spending time focusing on his work (oddly enough, despite the weed, it doesn't slow him down at all in terms of getting in the way of him being a fully functional, very productive person who holds a senior level position with his company). i don't think he has been honest with himself in regards to those behaviors and i've read enough to know that the last thing i should be doing is pointing them out to him, which is what i want to do when he is bent over, crying that he tried and tried and tried to make this work.
but the fact is that i love my H very much. he is so funny, and (when we're not in crisis) we have a playful, loving relationship. i tend to let the criticism fly when we go out on the town and he downs upwards of 8 or 9 beers and 3 or 4 shots of jack and i have to take him home (on a wednesday night) and put him to bed, but i also realise that the more he hears from me, the more he withdraws and engages himself in that same behavior that i ask him to stop.
it's great to hear from the perspective of someone who has ADHD. my H doesn't talk much about having it, so i don't know that much about how his brain is working throughout all of this, other than i know that he needs and wants to be able to escape all of the "noise" at home and collect his thoughts. maybe he will come to his senses, maybe he won't. once he was diagnosed, i really thought i was "special" enough to be the non-ADHD spouse, because i know it requires a lot of patience and letting things go, which i did well at first and then let slide over time. i want to show THAT W to him, because in my heart i know that while it's hard (even his sister has said she didn't know how i could be married to someone with so many ups and downs), it's also incredibly rewarding (i get the SWEETEST, most thoughtful gifts and notes from him), and not something i am willing to throw away.
i know that right now he's feeling like the struggles we've had so early into our marriage are a sign that they will continue long into our marriage and i've often thought about raising children with him, and again how challenging/rewarding it could be. i don't know what the future will hold for us, and i do pray that god opens his heart to the idea of reconciling our M and living up to the potential that i know we have together. i have probably not told him as much, but he is my hero.
thanks again for your insight. i'll scope out ebay for that mind reading device.
Just as a point of information. My secretary is dealing with adhd in her 8 year old and my son was add. Try googling adhd and diet. I found a site that gives you a diet that helps with adhd. Also my W belong to an organization called CHADD, they print a monthly magazine on adhd/add that might be helpful.
I am sure the alcohol is not good for any mental illness. Caffenine(coke cola) is a substitute for ritaline.
Dealing with adhd is something that can be managed but you have a lot of hurdles to get past right now.
thanks, OP. i DO have a lot of other hurdles to get past before we can talk about successfully managing the ADHD.
and OTM, after reading your last post, i think another reason my H felt he had to move so quickly was the sense of guilt he's dealing with as well...seeing all of our things, photos, our dog, our bed, probably wasn't helping him see clearly at all.
but really, an air mattress and some of your clothes in an otherwise empty apartment is better than trying to work on your M? that seems so awful and dreadfully lonely to me. i wish i had more insight on what it felt like so that i could understand his thinking better - anyone else been in a place where they've felt that isolation and loneliness was better than what they were dealing with at home? not that we are fighting, because we aren't, but since he's decided he can't work on this anymore, he pretty much wanted to be out the door asap.
HI TTA,
I thought I would drop by your thread! I have a few random thoughts. I relation to your post on my thread - the Dog. Maybe you could take him out for walks at the time that H would normally come home. It gets you both out of the house creating new habits. Might Help?
Also as far as the lonliness goes - I had a creative way of dealing with that. I renovated my house. Now I know you rent... but change things around. Everything is different at my place - the colors, furniture pieces, furniture placement, etc. Sometimes changing your environments changes your thinking. It feels more like MY house than OUR house - THAT helps my PMA.
Also, with the moving out thing. I packed all my H's stuff. THAT was my way of lovingly controlling his move. I packed it all - very organized, labeled boxes, etc. That way I didn't have to go through the house with him and watch him pack - I couldn't have handled it at the time. I cried the entire day as I packed all his stuff and stacked it in the middle of the living room. I looked at it like it was the most loving thing I could do to support his need to leave. BUT when he arrived to pack up and move you should have see the look on his face when he realized I did it. He was speechless the entire time he packed the truck. It was empowering for me, and a huge 180 because I think he believed I would try to talk him out of it.
I really used the ACT AS IF idea alot. IF we werent seperated, how would I treat H? That idea has kept me handling things based on my morals and values, not based on my reaction to him.
Sorry - this is alot about me... but I can't tell you what to do, all I can do is tell you what worked for me
Are you in IC? What are you doing to deal with your feelings?
(((HUGS))) Hang in there!
Talia
talia - you posted on my thread when i posted on yours!
great minds think alike, i guess.
thanks for sharing with me what's worked for you. every little bit helps. i've thought about trying to at least sort out some of his things and pack (i.e. all of his books, some of the kitchen ware, etc.) them up, because i know i can't handle being around the day he moves out (T minus 2 days and counting), but i would worry he'd feel like i was either eager for him to get out or trying to make sure he didn't take anything i wanted or i thought was "mine."
i do like the act as if theory, and have been planning to use it when i meet him today to go over the separation papers. if we weren't separated, how would i greet him if we were meeting for lunch together? i'll admit i got out of bed EARLY this morning to find the perfect outfit and spent a little extra time on the hair and makeup. just in case he decides that he can't live without me and professes his undying love over lunch. (kidding!)
as for MY living situation...our lease is up at the end of february. so i won't have that much time to make the place my own. although he is taking the TV and probably the couch, which will free up the whole living room for me to turn into my yoga/meditation den, so...that will be nice. i may have to put some things in storage for a while and move in with my sister when my lease is up because i work for the gov'ment and make PEANUTS and rent rates in washington DC are ASTRONOMICAL.
i'm not in IC right now...i reached out to our MC (who was initially my H's IC before he started seeing us together) about talking to him but he hesitated because of his primary "role" as my H's C. a friend of mine is a life coach and i've been speaking with her as well as a DB coach. i've joined a divorce support group and have a meeting on tuesday. i'm journaling like crazy, spending time just laying around with my dog (who, by the way, is a WRECK), and making a lot more room for god in my life. i found a new church that i love and i started running again. (FYI, crying while you are running is NOT a good idea since it can lead to one tripping oneself and almost falling off the treadmill. i do not recommend it!)
trying to start new routines is a good idea, too...my H usually got home before me and would walk the dog before i got home, but i'm enjoying taking on the task of adding a walk with the dog to my morning routine (as long as it's not raining). just taking it day by day, learning to let go and just let me be me.
thanks! your support means a lot!
OK - Advice for today - IMO
DONT SIGN ANYTHING. Just be light and cheery. Take the paperwork, tell him you'll look it over with counsel and get back to him. You need to be sure you get some kind of legal advice and protect yourself. Just act like its no big deal. And YES you should be looking absolutely fabulous - hey a little manipulation never hurt anything
As for your living Sitch - perhaps moving in with family is just what the Dr. Ordered. Helps with the lonliness, will help you get financiall stable and change your environment. 3/3 in my book!
Last thing. I know this is hard. STOP trying to determine how H will respond to what you do, how he will feel about what you do, or how he will react. SO WHAT if he thinks you are pushing him out - it was the BEST THING FOR YOU. Pack it all up - every last piece - you'll feel better(relative) - I promise!!
If you do the best thing for you and it "happens" to be good for him to, then great. If not, you have to only consider what is best for you, he's not going to, he can't. YOU HAVE NO IDEA what he will think of what you do. What he thinks about you right now, is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
You can do this - you're strong. Just be the best you possible and only focus on that. He'll see it!
Good luck at Lunch. I'll be looking for your post later with updates!
Talia
thanks, talia. i have no intention of signing anything today, just plan to tell him i'll look over it but that i'm not in a place to sign anything quickly and especially without counsel.
trust me, i'm doing my best to consider what is best for ME right now. i think the shockwaves of all of this sometimes keep me from seeing that clearly. part of me wants to ball up on the floor and cry, "but HE is what's best for me!!!" which i know is not only not true, but will also get me nowhere.
i'll post later about how lunch went. pray for me!!
well, here's the story on my lunch with my H.
he got there a few minutes before me and grabbed us a table. i got a lukewarm hello from him but i greeted him with a smile and a "good to see you." we chatted for a bit about his job (his last day at his current job is tomorrow) and his family, as well as his new place (he cried a lot talking about that...said he wakes up in the middle of the night and doesn't know where i am) and the job he starts on monday. we did do some laughing, and actually, the tears were on his part. he's clearly very lonely at his new place and hurting very much and doesn't have much support.
he brought up a school talent show which his 14 year old sister is performing in tomorrow. she had asked me back in december to come which i of course said yes to (before all this separation talk), but it has since slipped my mind (for obvious reasons), and i did end up in tears over that. i love his sister very much and felt so awful that i was going to let her down and go back on my promise to come cheer her on. he said he'd had to cancel a dinner to go to her talent show but he also asked if i wanted to come. he said first it might confuse his sister if we both went, but he said he would talk to his mother to see if she thought it would be too awkward. so. there is a small chance i might go to that tomorrow. remains to be seen.
he did notice i had a new dress on.
we talked about this weekend, and he said he wanted to come and take a few things out of the apartment, his clothes, books, a few pieces of furniture. i put on my best brave face and just smiled and nodded. he said it was hard being at his new place, and i said i was sure it was incredibly hard for him, so just trying to validate his feelings when i could.
we talked about finances and how we would pay our joint bills moving forward. no tears there, but...he did tear up a lot all throughout the lunch. he even apologized to me for crying. i did ok, but it did break my heart to see him crying. i can't watch ANYONE cry without wanting to cry myself.
the surprise was that he didn't give me any legal papers! nothing. i thought for SURE he would have a separation agreement with him. nope. NADA. i did not ask him about it and he did not mention it at all. i do not have a CLUE what that means. i did lose my cool one time...just before we got up to leave, "and i love her" by the beatles came on the restaurant's radio. and i walked down the aisle to that song at our wedding. i kinda lost it and i teared up big time, right in front of him. he ushered me outside and when i collected myself he said, "i assume that song got to you?" of all the songs on all the radios on all the earth...it had to be THAT SONG ON THAT RADIO AT THAT MOMENT?? throw me a freakin bone here!!
overall it was SO GOOD to see him. i have missed his physical presence SO MUCH over the last few days. he gave me a long hug before we parted. he was definitely crying.
i don't know how to feel right now. i want to feel optimism, but his sense of despair seems to have rubbed off on me...just a bit. i'm not giving up my fight or my hope. but. it's hard to stand next to someone with a rain cloud over their head without getting a few drops on yourself, too.
also, i did tell him i've been doing a lot of reading and that it's opened my eyes a lot and given me new perspective on relationships and myself. i didn't ask him to read anything, but just told him it had been really good to finally understand myself a little better, and the way marriages work, and that i'd realized a lot of things about myself that i had previously been totally unaware of. all of which are true.
but really, an air mattress and some of your clothes in an otherwise empty apartment is better than trying to work on your M?
It is a decision made, even if it is a bad one. My W really felt I was suffering and insisted to cook and offered to do laundry. I agreed to one, but in both cases I knew that it wasn't really a typical separation that way.
Lonely? Sure, at times. Quiet, yes.
It is a decision made, even if it is a bad one. My W really felt I was suffering and insisted to cook and offered to do laundry. I agreed to one, but in both cases I knew that it wasn't really a typical separation that way.
what do you mean by it wasn't really a typical separation that way? like it was a way for you to still keep in touch? i was wondering if i should ask my H to have dinner with me a few times once he gets settled in. i don't want to seem like i'm pursuing...but i also don't want to think that he's just eating take out and frozen pizza.
First off, I’m impressed that you got that far holding back your emotions! I’m happy to hear that you can feel a bit more hope. I was noticing that if your lease is up in Feb, maybe he noticed that too and just wanted to move if you do patch things up… one can never know anything for sure. “We might hate a thing, but through it God brings much good”
I meant it wasn’t typical because many separations/people expect the man to be gone from the house. I think welcoming him into your life without pressure is good, just as long as it doesn’t become a control or guilt feeling for him AND you…
i am trying to be optimistic that by the end of my lease he will want to talk about me moving in with him, but that of course, is outside of my control. i know i just have to remember that god will take care of me no matter what, it's just so hard to let go of that urge to control things sometimes.
i have to wonder how much he is motivated by guilt right now. he just emailed me to apologize AGAIN for not "keeping it together" at lunch today, which i told him to not worry about.
he did also say that his mom decided it was best for the girls (his sisters, both 14) if i didn't come to the talent show. and he apologized for that, too.
what's with all the apologies? i told him i don't want him to feel like the "bad guy" for doing what he feels like he needs to do.
also...really not sure about all his talking about a separation agreement over the last week or so and having nothing for me to look at today at lunch. obviously no one knows what he's thinking except for him, but some insight would be nice!!!
also, i forgot to ask my H about the status of our separation in terms of dating, but it's a weird question to ask via email. i don't know if he wants to date right now or not and i know i certainly am not interested (for the time being), but i want to make sure we're both on the same page so no feelings get hurt...
any ideas on how to broach the subject??
had a few email exchanges with my H this afternoon following our lunch. made it through the rest of the day, walked into the door of my empty apartment, and oh boy, did those tears find me. let myself sob for a while...guess sometimes you just have to let it hurt. i keep hearing my H say to me, "i woke up in the middle of the night and it was so dark and i didn't know where you were..." (he said this to me at lunch this afternoon), and my heart breaks over and over. the same thing happens to me...i wake up so confused, i could swear he was there next to me, but no. just a pillow.
such a roller coaster of emotion. my rational brain and my emotional brain are alternating between controlling my thoughts and it's quite a show. with all the ups and downs and crying and laughing and "i'm gonna be ok" and "i'll never get over this"...it's a wonder i haven't resorted to drinking. heavily.
that's what i would have done before i met my H. before him when my heart was broken, i would try to drink and sleep around enough to forget all about it. all i did was make a huge hole in my heart that never felt full, no matter what i did...until i met him. i was in such a dark, empty place and i hated who i had become, the things i let myself do. but i know i can thank god now because i am so much stronger than i used to be that i can't imagine doing any of those things to try to heal my hurt now.
sorry if i'm rambling. seeing him today just sent me over the moon in love with him again, seeing him smile, seeing him cry, wanting to reach across the table and hold his hand...and now i'm sitting alone at the table where we used to share dinner and talk about our days and he is not here and he is not coming here, no matter how badly i wish or hope or pray he comes...he is not coming. not tonight and not for many other nights. maybe later on, all i can do is be the best me i can and find my own happiness in the meantime...but it doesn't take away any of the hurt of being alone tonight.
read on my church's website that they are having a booksale to benefit haiti. thought i would do something productive and clean off my bookshelves and see what i could get rid of for a good cause. found the little booklet with our wedding ceremony and vows written inside, tucked away in a little hand made folder.
am i feeling sorry for myself? i haven't stopped crying since i found it.
Keep the book - just a reminder if a moment of weakness comes about. Be happy with who you are! I'm sure your H is proud of your growth from how you described yourself long ago. Those vows partly led you there...
i don't think my H really knows much about my past...he's never really asked and he never really wanted to know about it. regardless of whether or not he is proud, i know i am.
just got off the phone with my mom. she knows we had lunch today. of course she is telling me that no one who loves you would ever hurt you the way my H has. i know she just doesn't want to see me hurting, but...if i'm not bad mouthing my H, i just don't understand why she is.
Did you know about the videos on Facebook?
DBonFacebook
thanks, OTM. i have seen most of them...
problem is how do you implement any of this with a spouse who's not around??
You are still in contact, just not all the time. Choose one that you are confident in making a difference or that would show him who you want to be most.
My cousin wanted to go out, and my wife said she doesn't want to. A 180 would be her saying yes with a smile~
What would your H want to see when you contact each other?
hmmmm...i think in the past i put too much pressure on him to be the one to make me happy. i think if he saw me as being happy on my own without him, that might be a start.
i usually don't go out much either, and he likes to. so. tomorrow night i'm going to dinner with my sister and a friend. i've been making a lot of fun plans lately. not just to keep myself busy, but because they are things i genuinely want to do but have kept myself from doing because i was worried about being home for him, making dinner, or just making myself available when he wasn't working.
guess i don't have to worry about that so much anymore...
didn't do such a great job of GAL'ing tonight. after i found our wedding vows the rest of the night just sort of got away from me. i'm sad to admit i did a lot of sitting around, just staring at the wall. i know now is not the time to lose hope or give up my fight. just had an off night, i guess. found a bunch of my old letters and notes to him that he's been keeping in his sock drawer...i'm assuming he'll take them when he moves out this weekend.
i know everyone on this site says it's not over til it's over and all that...but then i talk to my family (ok, my mother), who tells me that it's pretty much done since he's moving out and that one day i'll find someone who loves me so much that he'll never question his faith in our marriage. it's just hard to keep my hope alive when i keep hearing, well he is moving out, it's obviously over.
i'm not going to lie, i am one sad sack of potatoes tonight. i have a session with my DB coach tomorrow evening, hopefully that will help set me back on track.
not really prepared for another night alone in bed, waking up all hours of the night, thinking he's right next to me. but...strangely, knowing he's going through the same thing is somewhat comforting to me.
TTA,
Holy Crap! SLOW DOWN.WOW.
OK.. (((((((tta))))))) - YOU DID AWESOME AT LUNCH! I'm SO PROUD of you!!!
Now slow down. You get to go home and cry.. honestly thats what you should do. That was a really really hard thing to do today and you made it. You get a night to be as sad as you want. I hope you don't beat yourself up for that. Doing well at this dosen't mean you don't feel anything. You just feel it for yourself.
STOP TALKING TO YOUR MOM... she loves you and wants to defend you and I'm sure she hates H for breaking your hear. As wonderful as it is to have her defending you - its not going to help your PMA. Do you have a close person to talk to that supports you saving your marriage? Anyone? Thats the person you need to talk to about this. Save conversations with mom for other topics.
When you are done fighting - you give up. Not a moment before. If you run this out until YOU are done, you won't have any regrets. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Noone knows how they will handle a situation like this until they have to go through it. Opionions are like assholes... well you know...
You've heard.. Its my party and I'll cry if I want to... That applies to You NOW. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for how you feel - how you feel is OK and if you let yourself FEEL through this the pain is easier - honest.
You are doing the right things
be proud of yourself.
OK... Next steps. When H apologizes for things. Just accept - no more trying to make him feel better, trying to tell him he's not the bad guy, etc. Just validate, don't excuse. After this weekend... go dark. Pack his stuff, help him move, be supportive and loving, then.... disappear. If he contacts you be friendly but aloof. Give him the space he wants and GAL like crazy. He'll notice. You are doing a GREAT job of "putting on a happy face" keep it up.
About him being alone in the empty apartment.... My therapist explained to me the idea that some people feel so badly about themselves they need to manipulate their surroundings to validate how they feel. They ruin relationships, live in horrible situations, etc. - Blame other people. All the while its so they can say - see I AM a bad person, no one likes me. See I don't deserve nice things, look at where I live. Don't assume the choice is between you or __(insert horrible alternative)_____ ... truth is .. it may have nothing to do with you.
Very proud of you....
Talia
PS - YEAH for no legal paperwork! Just let that one lay quietly as long as you can!!
OH - One more thing.. I still cry when I see OUR wedding stuff. I'm told that one may never go away - Don't let that feel like a setback.....
(((talia))) thanks, i needed that.
i just had a hard night last night after seeing him and then talking to my mom. even at 30 years old, my mom is WAY up in my business, and if ANYONE needs to do some GAL-ing, it's her. she is sitting on her couch crying over my marriage 24/7, and while she says she's not mad at my H the way she was last time he wanted to separate, she does think he is a big A-hole for "giving up" on our marriage and you know, i can't pick up the phone to say hello to her without her filling my ears up with how there is no way he could love me and then walk away like that. i just try to let it go. it's hard, though...she lives 15 minutes from me and we've always been very close. if i don't call her every day, she assumes i'm lying dead on the floor of my apartment. she did tell me she was proud of how i was handling all of this, though...
180 for me this morning, i picked up some boxes that were laying around in my office to take home and pack up some of the kitchen stuff. i don't want him taking my good drinking glasses that were a wedding present from my aunt, so i guess i won't even give him the option.
yeah me! i will be busy GAL-ing tonight having dinner with my sister and a guy friend of ours, so i'll have to pack them up later tonight - you know, when i have some free time.
i get what your therapist is saying, i think my H could possibly be doing that to validate his feelings...but at the same time, he's saving a lot of money on rent and he plans to give me a hefty chunk of his paycheck each month. he only signed a 6 month lease, and he has a LOT of bills to pay, so i know he couldn't really afford anything very nice.
i don't know if i have said this, but he has never ONCE said the D-word to me. he only says we should separate. i don't know if he's dancing around the issue or what, but i don't push it, and like you suggested, i'm going to let that agreement thing lay low. he won't hear a peep out of me about that.
turns out i won't be going to his sister's school talent show...his mom thought they would be too confused/upset about us being there together and might get their hopes up. he did offer to video it for me and leave it at the apt when he comes to move so i can at least contact his sister later on and let her know i saw it. he said they don't really understand adult issues all the time. i replied, hell, i'm 30 and i STILL don't understand adult isses all the time.
thanks for the support and the advice about accepting his apologies for what they are. i'll work on just validating and not going out of my way to excuse.
feeling a little better today, but...it's still early.
TTA,
I'm glad you are better today! Have fun tonight!! Good for you for packing some stuff. Control where you can get it is very empowering!
As hard as it is to see him make mistakes and screw things up - you have to let him. If he over-extends his budget, he'll have to deal with the consequences. Just do what's best for you. Sometimes the best lessons to learn are the hardest ones on us; beause we brought them on ourselves. Its his path to walk and he has to walk it alone, all you can do is GAL and hope it leads him home...
I see opportunity here with your mom!! Set some boundaries - you could use the practice AND the protection they will give your feelings. DBing isn't just for marriages you know!!
Talia
another question: since my H is moving out tomorrow and i do not plan to call/email/text him, but need to let him know what furniture to take (he asked me to choose if i wanted the dresser or the wardrobe). so i plan to leave him a note at the apartment - which i plan to vacate for all of the day tomorrow and will stay at my sister's place with the dog that night.
i don't know if this is the time to say (in the note) something along the lines of what Onthemountaintop suggested ("I know we've had many changes, but I see the world differently. I love you and I hope you will see the side of me you loved once and could discover it again later on."). Should I end the note with something like that or keep it strictly to furniture?
i can't believe he's moving out tomorrow. i'm kind of numb about it. he hasn't slept here in about a week anyway, so that i'm on the verge of getting used to. but his clothes are still in his closet, his books still on the shelf. i packed some things up tonight and did not shed a single tear. i felt like someone else was using my hands to put those things in boxes. i also feel like someone else has taken over my life.
went out to dinner tonight and it felt good to kick back and laugh. came back to an empty, quiet apartment...that's about to get a whole lot emptier and quieter. not sure i'm ready for that, but as i've learned here, it's not really something i can control.
i'm going to hit the sack so i can get up early and head out of here with the dog before my H gets here to pack up. if anyone out there in cyberspace is awake and feels like praying...i'll take all the prayers i can get.
didn't sleep well last night...kept waking up, forgetting for half a second that he wasn't right next to me. he'll be here soon, to get his things, move them to his own apartment on the other side of town. i talked to my DB coach last night, which was good. she understands the situation more than i can explain here on the forum without writing novel-long posts, and it does instill me with a little more hope to hear her say that our situation seems atypical. i guess everyone's marriage and story is a little different, but there's no real anger or resentment on either side for us...mostly just a sense of sadness and loss. obviously i'm still hopeful he'll come to his senses, but of course it hurts so much that he feels the need to move out rather than stick things out and work on our M. i told him at one point that IMO it would be easier to work on the M than it would be to deal with S and D and splitting all our things and dealing with the emotional aftershock of that. he said he'd already thought of that but he just didn't have anything left to give and he didn't want to work on the M at this point.
i still feel very numb. my husband, the man i vowed to spend my life with only 2 years ago, is moving to another apartment. i haven't lived alone since we met 5 years ago. it's not that i mind being alone, but i do mind not having him in my life on a daily basis. i did leave him a note about the furniture...i did end it by telling him i loved him very much and i didn't want him to go but i understood that he felt he needed to. which is kind of true. but i would understand a whole lot more if he'd asked me for some space and moved in with a friend or his family for a few weeks or a month...instead of finding an apartment, signing a 6 month lease, and moving out less than a month after dropping the S bomb on me. i understand needing to get your head back on straight and needing some breathing room. this just seems a little final to me.
positive thoughts, positive thoughts.
TTA,
Nothing is final. Don't give up yet. This is a very tough day and you just need to give yourself permission to feel bad through it. What you are doing today to keep yourself occupied?
From today on you need to stop worrying about H. Do what we've told you and get you figured out.... let him do the same. It seems neither of you are in a place to help eachother through this - just help yourself. The right things will be there when you need them - Have faith.
Talia
just got home...spent last night at my parents' place and spent some well-needed time with my girlfriends today.
the apartment is so...empty. i can't bring myself to open his closet. he left me a note that said he was in so much pain and he didn't know what the right and wrong thing to do was...that he didn't know if separating was the answer but given our history he felt it was his only choice. i don't know what that means...but still no legal papers have been brought up.
he also said he loved me in his letter...but he didn't know if that was enough to sustain a strong marriage. i don't even know what to say to that...obviously, the answer is nothing. i'll wait for him to reach out to me, but...i just walked in the door and i'm already overwhelmed with loneliness.
the revered at my church today talked about change and liberation...how only by accepting and embracing change and by letting go can we truly set ourselves free. that was a hard sermon to sit through. of course i fear change. i fear not having my H in my life anymore. by letting this go, my hope is that we could come back together and build something even better than we had before, and i know we could do it, because i have the faith...but i don't know where he is in his head on that. i don't want the marriage we used to have. i want something stronger and deeper. but i do want it with him.
so...he loves me, he's hurting, he's in pain, he doesn't know the answer. i know i need to spend this week focusing on myself and by opening my heart and accepting change into my life, i know that i can only move forward and not back. and that's all i can ask for right now, i suppose.
That sounds like a positive plan!
When you said you want change in your M, too, would you accept your H exactly as he is? If you have already made a list of things that you've complained/critisized in him, maybe go through the list and see if you can really accept it, not just cover it up.
HAVE A GREAT WEEK ~ nobody's perfect, and the marriage can only be a failure if you want it to be. Otherwise, it is an experience planned and given by God to make you, him, others, or any combination better. You've said you've grown...love your growth.
thanks, OTM.
i've had a lot of time to spend alone with my thoughts in the last few weeks. i am finally able to understand that it is my resistance to some of those things about him that has been the wedge between us, rather than the actual behaviors themselves. i do not want to sweep anything under the rug or go back to what we were doing before. in my vows, i promised to love him for who he is. obviously, i didn't get us in this situation totally on my own, but i can honestly see that i haven't given 100% to living up to that promise to him.
anyone have advice on next steps for me? i feel like he's in an iffy place right now...he's not sure what the next step is, he's unsure about the separation and he has said he loves me. i don't want to push him away by crowding him, but i don't want to act aloof and not let him know i am here and i want to work on this.
I've never been in your spot, but I would think I would want:
- space enough to focus on his new job instead of the R
- encouragement with the new job, some kind of congrats that only you, his mother, or another close person could give him
- when you see him pretend you were dating him again
- be confident
- forgive and forget, for now at least
- be strong so he knows you don't need him, you want him
During My Seperation -
- Let her know I wanted her but didn't need her.
- Be a Friend
- Don't Monitor, spy, bug, nag, etc..
- Don't be at every beckon Call - support but from distance.
- Took extra good care of myself and was very visible.
- Attended Church - took kids.
- Try to become better Daddy
I know some of it doesn't apply to your sitch but thats a condensed version of what I wrote down.
Which i would suggest to you - write it down!
TTA,
I'm proud of you - this is a very tough time. You can do this. Its a good sign that he's so conflicted, but you can't help him with that. The really crappy thing about all this, is that he has to sort through those feelings for himself. Be wonderful, supportive, and loving when he reaches out - but don't reach out to him. Just focus on you and get yourself in order. I hope you see that you have alot of your own emotions to sort through - we all do - and you need to give yourself that time. The best thing you can do to help H is to take care of you.
What is your plan for self care this week??
T
thanks, OTM and OB. those are good ideas and i'm doing my best to give him space and still let him know i'm around. it was actually nice to rearrange some of the furniture last night after he'd moved his things out, and while i am lonely i'm not alone.
going to church definitely helps, i found a new one that i love and brought my sister with me this weekend and plan to bring some girlfriends this sunday. makes a lot of difference in terms of my overall mood!
plan to run tonight and have dinner plans tomorrow with my sister. today his his first day at his new job. i wanted to wish him luck but also don't want to distract him from focusing today - maybe a quick email this evening to say i hope it went well?
i'm just having a hard time with understanding where he's at in his head. last weekend he said he knew in his heart that separating was the best thing for both of us in the long run. in the letter he left, he said he wasn't sure if separating was the answer. i never responded to that letter, but...i'm so confused.
thanks, talia. i know i can't help him with those feelings, it just leaves me feeling more confused to know that he's wavering. i do plan to devote this week to myself. running, yoga (now that i have all that free space for my yoga mat in the living room!!), time with friends, journaling, reading (which i will have more time for now that i have no TV to distract me!), and working on a LONG overdue photography project i've been meaning to get to for about a year now!
i do have a lot of emotions to sort through, and hopefully all this focus on myself will help me do that!
Just be strong and try to expect the worst case scenario. You need to be strong for you and independant for you. I am in your shoes, these are words I am telling myself as I write them to you. The confusion is unreal. I've come to believe that I will no longer be confused by W's actions. I know what I want, and right now I can't have it, and may not ever have it again.
Let your H be the one who's confused. Let his head spin...be the lighthouse, dont pursue, and ignore that letter. Or see it for what it is- wishy-washy back and forth rubbish.
best
in the letter he left, he said he wasn't sure if separating was the answer. i never responded to that letter, but...i'm so confused.
Sounds like you are doing something right if he is more confused. Think of it like a balance - less sure to seperate means more sure to work on M later on. I wouldn't expect miracles, but hope sounds like it should be around.
It also sounds like you have a great weekend alone, but not lonely, to work on being happy and confident~
i'm certainly not expecting miracles at all. he did just call me, though. i haven't spoken to him on the phone in a while! it made me so nervous to talk to him. i feel like a damn teenager.
but he was asking me about our joint banking account since he's dealing with getting all his direct deposit stuff set up at his new job today. so it was mostly just business but i did ask him how the job was going and tried my best to sound upbeat. he asked about the dog and when i said, oh he's ok, just a bit depressed, you know how he gets, my H said, well, i can't talk about it or else i'll just get upset about it. i'm thinking...if you know you're going to get upset, why would you ask? anyway, i just wished him luck with his first day and told him i knew he was going to be great in his new position then we hung up.
be the lighthouse. i like that, maynard. that is some sound advice. i just hope he can see me through the fog.
i know i keep complaining about my mother, but it's very hard for me to keep my cool and be level-headed about this when every time i talk to her, she's telling me about how she was up all night long, worrying about me, or how i need to make sure that i don't let my H start making all the decisions on what happens from here.
i tell her, look, do i look like i'm worried to you?? i'm hurt, i'm sad, but hey, i'm still alive. it just hurts that she's written my marriage off already, the second he moved out she was just like, well, that's over, guess you'd better move on.
i guess i need to set up more boundaries with my mom, but even if i say, mom, i don't want to talk about my M or anything that's going on with my H, she just ignores me and does it anyway. well, let me just say this one thing. i understand that she is just worried and wants to look out for me, but it doesn't help me ONE BIT to talk to her and listen to her go on and on about what H needs to do, what i need to do, how i'm going to start my life over...
i'm just venting, but...SHE IS MAKING ME CRAZY!
Just read your entire thread trytryagain,
About your Mom. She just loves you. I sometimes have to remind my own Mom that Im 47 not 14 LOL. Makes her mad every time. Not been close with her for years till this D thing started. It's sad how only pain can bring some things closer together again.
Not familiar with ADHD so cant really give advice. That and Im still new. But I feel the advice about being the lighthouse and wanting your H but not needing him to survive rings true.
I am in a similar sitch as you but replace the ADHD with possible MLC (yes I know that term is overused and abused here).
Like you I still tear up and sometimes cry at pictures, notes, music and reminders of my wife and our life. After 23yrs together, reminders are everywhere. Even on the streets I drive on if that makes sense.
I am at the stage now where I am a (mobile) lighthouse myself as I tend to be a little too eager to help my WAW since she is starting to warm up a frienship with me. Should be divorced in 8 days so we will see if that changes anything. Remember, a D is not the end. I think of it as just a piece of paper. I didnt need paper to tell me we loved each other before we were married. Same for you right? My love is between me, her and God, not the State of Texas.
Regarding your Yoga Matt in the extra space, I opted for a pool table, bar and mini beer fridge in my extra space LOL. I just had to laugh when I read your Yoga Matt comment. I am the complete opposite of you LOL.
Keep being a lighthouse and loving from a distance. It sounds like you may have a chance at R but I do not want to get your hopes up. You never realy know, only he does or only God knows.
It gets easier. Stay strong.
i guess i need to set up more boundaries with my mom, but even if i say, mom, i don't want to talk about my M or anything that's going on with my H, she just ignores me and does it anyway. well, let me just say this one thing. i understand that she is just worried and wants to look out for me, but it doesn't help me ONE BIT to talk to her and listen to her go on and on about what H needs to do, what i need to do, how i'm going to start my life over...
i'm just venting, but...SHE IS MAKING ME CRAZY!
DB your Mom.
And everyone.
Boundaries (aka Morals aka Principles aka Code of honor aka etc) are things that define how you live your life and how you allow others to influence your life.
They are good things to have.
Boundaries are good to have...sometimes I think my mom stresses me out more than my H.
Have a meeting tomorrow evening with the divorce support group I joined...it's moderated by a family lawyer, so she dishes out free legal advice to the group, as well as the support I'll get from other people there going through the same thing I am. Should be interesting. Still no mention of any legal papers by my H.
His letter said he does love me, but doesn't know if that makes a strong marriage. I don't even know how to respond to that...of course love isn't enough. But isn't it the foundation you build eveything else on?
But isn't it the foundation you build eveything else on?
Perhaps he is really saying he isn't sure if the arguments & differeces have reduced "I love you and need you in my life" to "I love you and it is fun to see you from time to time". Both are love, but differing kinds.
Can you build a M on both of these, I know I have done it on the 2nd one, but do YOU want to? If he isn't sure, do your best to help him decide...worrying will only get you down.
everyone keeps asking me if i want to work things out or if i'm only saying that because i don't want to get a D. i've thought about it a lot over the last few weeks, what do i REALLY want? do i think my H is the only man on earth who i could ever love and who could ever make me happy? certainly not. i know that if this did end in D, it might take a while, but i'll find someone else eventually. but as long as i am still married, and as long as there is a chance that we can build on the foundation of the love we have for one another...then i have to say yes, that's what i want. as far as helping him decide, all i can do is show him my best self because i can't make up his mind for him. but it's hard to show someone your best self when they have you so confused you don't know which way is up!
wow...what a long night. but i woke up this morning, knowing that my H was not next to me in bed - ever since he left i've been waking up slightly confused, wondering where he was. but not today. it's been so hard not to email or text him at all, but he has contacted me several times in the last few days.
on the day he moved out, he sent me a text saying "i can't breathe. i am so sad and sorry." my heart breaks, but at the same time, this is what HE wanted, this is what HE felt like he needed to do. he did take a bunch of our wedding photos with him. and my favorite framed picture of the dog. but. i guess i have the dog to look at in person, so...i won't complain.
everyone keeps asking me if i want to work things out or if i'm only saying that because i don't want to get a D. i've thought about it a lot over the last few weeks, what do i REALLY want? do i think my H is the only man on earth who i could ever love and who could ever make me happy? certainly not.
This is true, no getting around it and it is a step in the process we all have gone, or are going, or need to realize in this process.
i know that if this did end in D, it might take a while, but i'll find someone else eventually. but as long as i am still married, and as long as there is a chance that we can build on the foundation of the love we have for one another...then i have to say yes, that's what i want.
And that is why you are HERE. If you didn't have this thought process and dedication, you wouldn't be here.
as far as helping him decide, all i can do is show him my best self because i can't make up his mind for him. but it's hard to show someone your best self when they have you so confused you don't know which way is up!
Ok part of this is not so good. Realizing that you cannot make up his mind for him is exactly right. The rest of it -" having you so confused" isn't so good.
To me as I read today's post you took two steps forward and one step back. Does it happen? Hell Ya - but do you see it?
OB-
i feel like a lot of my days are 2 steps forward, 1 step back. i'm aware of the setbacks and resolve myself to keep moving forward.
i do know that i can't control what he says or does, nor can i make up his mind in any way. what i meant was it's hard for me to show him my best self, the upbeat, happy, positive, new me when one minute he KNOWS he wants to separate and the next, he's not so sure (but he still moved out). everyone on this site is dealing with a lot of ups and downs in their marriages. i guess the back and forth of it all leaves me more confused about how HE feels. i know how i feel and i know what i want. his actions don't confuse the fact that i want to work on our M. they just confuse me in terms of what he wants. regardless, i should probably always be my best self around him, but it's a lot easier when he's distant and unfeeling as opposed to when he's crying about how lost and alone he feels. does that make sense?
what i meant was it's hard for me to show him my best self, the upbeat, happy, positive, new me when one minute he KNOWS he wants to separate and the next, he's not so sure (but he still moved out). everyone on this site is dealing with a lot of ups and downs in their marriages. i guess the back and forth of it all leaves me more confused about how HE feels.
Just to pipe in...I think that he and you should expect the occasional lapse - you were close partners for 5 years and the S has just really hit home.
2 forward - 1 back = still forward...! I was mulling over his text you sent, "I can't breath...". This suggests that regardless of the end result, at least now he seems to know you are important to him. You are doing something right towards saving your M.
It does.
Try - I'm on your side, and I wanted to see if you saw it.You did and that was all I was hoping to accomplish.
Believe me = I fully understand the heart moving my feet when my head had them going in another direction!
2 forward - 1 back = still forward...! I was mulling over his text you sent, "I can't breath...". This suggests that regardless of the end result, at least now he seems to know you are important to him. You are doing something right towards saving your M.
i think he's always known i was important to him. the problem is is that he feels stuck in where things are in our M right now, and that we will never solve it, but continue to have the same conversation year after year. since we "can't even go 3 months without ending up back in counseling" it must mean there is something fundamentally wrong with us. (this is in his opinion)
i hope i am doing something right...i feel glimmers of hope from him, but they are pretty fleeting.
that we will never solve it, but continue to have the same conversation year after year.
What is the "it"? What's the same conversation? This is what you 180. You change and the dynamic changes.
what is the "it?" hmmm. the it is the cycle of our relationship, where we are fine and dandy and happy as clams for a few months, maybe even half a year or more, and then i begin to feel like i get less and less of his attention and focus, i let him know i need more and that i'm not feeling loved, and he responds with "nothing i ever do makes you happy."
let me tell you, reading mars and venus has been EYE OPENING in regards to "it." and it's certainly made me feel like i am a normal human being and not some sort of super freak that needs more attention than anyone else on the planet! but it's also made me understand that he has his own cycle as well, but it's the opposite of mine. i want to be closer, he wants to pull away.
how do you 180 in a relationship when you feel like your spouse isn't giving you enough of their time and/or attention? i tried spending more time away from home if he was out working, but that resulted in an email about how i never had time for him. if i could figure that 180 out, it could change a lot about the dynamic of my marriage.
i want to be closer, he wants to pull away.
My W feels that, too. I needed her to tell me that she wants some time and be willing to let me delay it 20 minutes.
if i could figure that 180 out, it could change a lot about the dynamic of my marriage.
You might also be a miracle worker! I've had a few times where I knew deep down my W wanted a touch, not talking. I didn't want the talking, so I just went somewhere else rather than feel guilty that I couldn't be there for her. I don't know if you can avoid the problem, exactly, but a few weeks ago my W came to me instead, massaged my shoulders, and suddenly I felt that I wanted to stop and talk for a bit. I don't know if that is what your H feels at times, but I know that when I feel like a bad H but I feel I'm a good person, it is hard to feel like my W is a good W.
When you're physically seperated, that might be harder. That is why I thought if your H ever hints towards watching a movie, dinner, etc, that you have an opportunity to show off your understandings of his 'weaknesses' as a S.
I wonder if the drugs or alcohol play a role...
CBC Doc Zone about Pot. But then again, he has to want to stop it on his own, if it is a factor.
TTA,
I'm glad you have a plan to do things for you. I think it sounds great!
I've read your posts since he left and you are only focusing on what HE thinks, how HE feels, what HE see's as issues in your marriage. You can't solve those for him and HE's gone so you can't influence how he solves them for himself. PLEASE STOP making yourself crazy about these things. You don't know what he's thinking or why he feels the way he does - so stop trying to read his mind. What he's thinking about your/your marriage/ his feeling's right now is none of your business. Trying to read his mind and rationalize what you THINK he's thinking to how you interpret his behavior will drive you to the mad house. Unless he wants to sit down and communicate these things to you all you can do is follow the last resort method. I don't believe you can do all the other things when you have limited contact with someone - the book even says that if you are separated this is your only viable option. Now you can do those other things when you interact... but for the most part they don't apply. I hope that makes sense... I'm a little off today
I want to see posts about you - what are you thinking and feeling - outside of H's context. How do YOU feel things were in your M, what were your concerns, what were things H should have done better for you?? These are the things you need to evaluate and decide how you feel about them. What are the good things in your life, what are the fleeting positive feelings you find yourself having, how does that make you more to the person you want to be?
Its OK to come here and talk about H and muse about all the things above. I just want to see that you are focusing more on you and not what H is thinking/feeling.....
You are doing GREAT - lets make this about You and YOUR HAPPINESS!!!!
Proud of You,
T
Oh - DB your mom. Set the boundaries - if she breaks them hand up on her. Tough Love.
the mars and venus book did at least give me insight to the fact that if my H wants or needs to pull away (john gray calls it the "rubber band effect" where men need to stretch and pull away either mentally, emotionally, or physically from time to time), it's not necessarily because of me. in the past i would think, oh my H seems distant. he must not love me as much anymore. so i would pursue him even more and seek assurance of his love - and at a time where he wasn't in a position to give it to me, i can only imagine the guilt that would make him feel...not to mention probably feeling like a failure for not being able to give me what i needed (due to the ADHD).
that documentary looks interesting, though...i'll have to check it out!
just when i thought i wouldn't hear from him today...
got a relatively long (for him) email about when i could expect his paycheck to deposit. he talked a bit about his new job, but mostly it read like a business email. no emotion. completely impersonal. he didn't ask about me or the dog (although when he called yesterday he asked about the dog), and said if i get mail for him i can give it to our friend who lives in my building to give to him. i had hoped he'd ask if we could meet up at some point, but i guess that's wishful thinking right now.
i know i shouldn't flip out over one email, but the difference between the letter he left me when he moved out on saturday and this email is night and day. and i don't know what that means. i don't even know if i should respond to it, but since it's just a calmly worded, "this is what's going on" kind of email, i guess as long as i maintain the same level of "this is what's going on" language a quick response would be ok. but maybe tomorrow.
right now i kinda feel like i might run down to the ladies room and cry.
also, still no mention of me signing any legal documents, but he has set up his direct deposit to give me a certain amount each month to cover bills and expenses.
going to a divorce support group meeting tonight. if nothing else, hoping to at least get some useful legal advice and learn a little about what my options are. last time i met a friend, so...hopefully i'll meet some nice people this time, too.
talia, i do see your point and i am sure that one of these posts, i am going to emerge from all this "him, him, him" talk and finally say something about how i'm feeling. that will be my 180 for tonight (or tomorrow in case i get home from dinner a little past my bedtime!): HOW DO I FEEL???
TTA,
Its your party - cry if you want to!!!
(Then block his emails so you can't get them at work. Those things are better left at home!!!!)
Don't respond! Ask yourself... does this REQUIRE a response? If NOT - don't. That's what it means to go dark. Being dark will let you only focus on you right now... and you need it. Give yourself all the TLC you can muster for now - you don't have enough to give to anyone else.
Don't READ into emails... emails are inherently emotionless... YOU CAN'T know what he's thinking behind the words so stop TRYING. It's probably not what you are thinking, but you have no way of knowing so don't drive yourself crazy with that.
Have fun tonight, go for you and what you can get out of this. You are gong to be just fine!
T
Seems to make sense to avoid "reading into emails". I've written some where the other party understood what I felt wrong - it usually ended badly that way.
If your H was on these boards, wouldn't he be told to not get emotional?
Talia is right - understand yourself. I think understanding him will help you reply, but not necessarily help you decide what you want for yourself.
I know I might be the only one thinking this, but I would think a response like, "got your mail - thanks for clearing things up, excited about job, if you want to talk more over dinner one day..." (cool & calm, but open)
I was thinking about your mentioning his changes in how he felt about the relationship every few months. Is kind of like a mini-MLC?
BTW, if he is on meds for ADHD, his responses will vary depending on the time of day, alcohol (etc.), and other factors that effect his focus.
the difference between the letter he left me when he moved out on saturday and this email is night and day. and i don't know what that means.
On Saturday, he was collecting things covered with memories of you. He also got a note from you that may have reminded him of the consequences of his decision.
Side note - in my last post I wanted to clarify I think understanding him makes sense and is admirable. Trying to see what can be done is super, too. You aren't a year into a seperation, just a few days. Just don't make it your life.
OTM-
H isn't on any meds. other than weed and alcohol...but since i no longer live with him, i no longer am aware of how much he's consuming.
went out tonight...had a GREAT time with my sister. actually ended up running into a guy i dated briefly but REALLY liked a few years ago. he was at the event i was at with my sister, but with his girlfriend. i did say hello, but...still weird.
i'm back home, no word from the H, watching the snow fall from the beautiful picture windows of our (well...now MY) apartment, trying to feel lonely but not alone and it's not working out so well. i miss him so much.
will mull over a response to his email tomorrow. probably just something quick...i know he doesn't want to write me an emotional email at his new job, 2 days in, only to end up crying at his desk.
interesting how trying to GAL can make me feel more lonely than ever...
TTA,
DO NOT reply to his email - NO GOOD WILL COME OF THAT. There is no need and you need to separate yourself emotionally and protect you a little bit right now. I KNOW it feels wrong to ignore him - but that's what you need to do. You have GOT to find a way to only focus on you. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY... LET HIM GO AND FOCUS ON YOU... please re-read that sentence. NOTHING you do is going to help him decide right now if its directed AT him. The only thing you can do to help your marriage is to FOCUS ON YOU... do you see the running theme here?
Try thinking about things that you want. A good goal might be to be alone but not feel lonely... whether or not you and H work things out you need to find away to be happy with just you. You are no where near that - THAT needs to be your focus. You will find that dark/ no contact will actually feel better for this.
How did your support group go? Did you find comfort in it?
Its good you went out with your sis - do more of that!
I want you to think... Is there anything you have always wanted to do but never made the time to do??? List them for us.
Hang in there - be strong.... NO EMAILS ....
T
You will find that dark/ no contact will actually feel better for this.
Isn't going 'dark' a last resort? They've only just become separated. Yes, she needs to focus on herself and be strong - both of which can help her and her M. Being alone can drive her H to other women just as much as it can drive him toward her.
Just think, TTA, while it felt weird, you are starting to see other men differently. Wouldn't your H do that too if he feels that you have written him out of your life?
Side note - in my last post I wanted to clarify I think understanding him makes sense and is admirable. Trying to see what can be done is super, too. You aren't a year into a seperation, just a few days. Just don't make it your life.
OTM-
do you mean don't try to make understanding him my life? or don't make separation my life? i guess the answer is probably both.
talia and OTM-
shouldn't i be working the last resort method now anyway, since my H no longer lives with me? i don't want to ignore the sound advice of anyone here, but it does feel awfully strange to me to completely ignore and not respond to an email from my H letting me know that he's set up his paycheck to direct deposit into our joint account so i can continue paying my bills and expenses. it doesn't feel like an issue i need to "drop the rope" on, because we are at a phase where we do still have joint financial responsibilities and ignoring him on that front seems...i don't know, i guess kind of cold. i wasn't going to write him some weepy email, just a thanks for setting that up kind of response.
and while it did make me think some "what if" kind of stuff last night, seeing that guy i'd dated really only left me missing my H even more.
talia, i signed up for acro-yoga classes! that's YOGA + ACROBATICS!!! i could not be any more excited. i've fallen away from my yoga practice in the last year and am so eager to get back into it...my first class is tonight and i'm starting with a simple flow yoga to find some zen and remind my body of what it's been missing! i am also planning to go on a week-long trip down to new orleans in march to do some volunteer community rebuilding work through my church - another thing i've been wanting to do for YEARS but have never found the time.
the support group was the MOST DEPRESSING THING ON EARTH. everyone else there was dealing with dividing major assets (like houses) and had awful, traumatic stories like not seeing their spouses for 4 years (but still not divorced), restraining orders placed that kept people from seeing their children, affairs, marriages crumbling in less than a year...it actually made me feel worse than better. and i was the only person in there who didn't WANT a divorce. but it was at least helpful to gain some legal knowledge, i suppose. but still. talk about a room full of debbie downers! everyone's story is different, i know, but not one single person was interested in saving their marriage...
OTM,
That's a really good question - and a very valid one. In my case that's exactly what I thought. By pursuing H and trying to get him to see how all the things he thought about me were wrong - that course of action made everything worse.
OTM - Here is the flaw in your question. (I'm not up on your specific situation - but I'm assuming that this question is as much for you as TTA) Your question assumes that ANY action by the left behind spouse will make the WAS do anything. Thats a wrong assumption. There is no cause and affect relationship with a WAS. WAS spouses live in a made up crazy land where somewhere in the twisted purple sky what they are doing is either best for them and screw everyone else OR its the best thing they can do for their LBS. NONE of that is logical. REMEMBER - BELIEVE NOTHING THAT THEY SAY AND HALF OF WHAT THEY DO.
TTA - in your case he SAYS he's not sure - BUT he moved out. What do his actions say? If you went dark what more damage could it do - he's already gone... If H wanted you in every part of his life- if he felt comfortable enough with that he wouldn't have left. Part of this is respecting HIS boundaries too. He clearly needs space.. so give it to him.
DR is pretty clear - once you are not in the same house the most effective thing you can do is be lovingly detached, go dark and implement the LRT.
If there is OP than NOTHING the LBS does will advance or end that relationship. Its totally on the WAS to cross those boundaries. By pursuing - which is exactly what you are doing when you email something like "If you want to discuss over dinner sometime" - You reduce the respect factor. No wants to be chased by someone who they no longer want in their lives. Stepping back and focusing on you - going dark - shows you don't NEED that person. Remember - its human nature to WANT what we can no longer have. Going dark gives you a protected safe place from WAS's craziness. You CANNOT interpret letters that say ILY one day and cold emails the next. Engaging in that only feeds the mental craziness all LBS's go through. You are reading into every word, response, timing, etc. If you only respond when you have to - there are less interactions in general and you have less fuel for the LBS obsessing fire. We all do it - ready my post from this morning....
All the DBing aside - going dark gave me personally a chance to get my head screwed on straight. I didn't have the option of worrying about H - I sort of put him out of my mind. That left enough space to sort through my own issues. I've realized that I can't possibly try to help H (assuming he wanted me to) with his issues when I haven't sorted out mine. Getting right with myself mentally right away put me in a position of understanding early on.
Be YOUR OWN PERSON - read the threads here.... the advice is the same. Let go - drop the rope - and focus only on your PMA. DR is very clear - this MAY NOT save your marriage - but that's not really what DBing is about. Its about making YOU the best YOU possible and by doing THAT you may be able to save your marriage.
Just remember - the only thing you can control is YOU. Your actions will never push anyone to do something they weren't going to do anyway. Stop worrying about what your actions will push your H to do - he's doing them not matter what happens with you - worry about whether or not your actions are the BEST THING FOR YOU. H will see that and respect it and THAT's the foundation for re-building.
Hope this helped and isn't too all over the place..
T
TTA,
I just saw your post - we were posting at the same time! You are right - you do need to interact with H. Just only do it as necessary. There's no need to respond to that email. Maybe you wait until you have something to report back... say ... you paid a joint bill and THEN slip in at the end something like "OH - BTW - Thanks for taking care of the paycheck thing. You were always so good at making sure I'm provided for" and leave it at that. It shows gratitude, but on your terms, gives you a reason to slip in a compliment - which is what men need to feel like men - and you aren't readily jumping to respond to his very communication. You are acting... not reacting. That's how you want to handle it.
With shared finances you can't just ignore him. Just be the driver with your interactions, not the passenger in his... Make sense??? I'm a little foggy today.
OK ... TO GAL
I'm so glad you are going back to YOGA! I loved doing Yoga - its so good for the mind! Keep filling your time with those things that you neglected previously - you will start to find it empowering. Sounds like the support group is a great big AVOID from now on... yuck. Sorry that was such a bad experience.
Remember - only a truly whole person can be a good partner to someone else. Can you be a good partner? IF NOT focus on getting yourself to that point as your #1 priority and the M stuff will fall into place.
I don't know if you are spiritual in any way.. but I believe you need to have faith that the things you need in your life will be there when you need them. Have faith things will come together as they should....
T
in your case he SAYS he's not sure - BUT he moved out. What do his actions say?
I see your point. I think ADHD changes things, though. Giving space, not pursing, still excellent advice. Being open and letting him know the door in isn't going to shut right away, that you still feel a connection can be developed if he is willing...that is I think the key difference.
the support group was the MOST DEPRESSING THING ON EARTH.
I tried the adhdmarriage site, and I found that feeling, too. Most S were so busy complaining they couldn't see much hope.
talia-
great advice in both posts...i'm so grateful to have someone help keep me in check - especially since that whole support group experience was SO AWFUL!
your thoughts on being the driver with my interactions makes total sense...my mom says the same things, just to not let him call all the shots. and i like the idea of slipping in a compliment to my response, because he really always WAS good at providing for me although i know i didn't always make him feel that way.
you know, i thought for the last 2 years that boy was my H lucky to have found me because i was just about the most perfect wife ever. all of this has knocked me off my high horse and made me realize that i have just as much work to do on myself as he does, so at the very least i have to credit him with making me see that i have made a LOT of mistakes over the course of our R and M, and had all of this not gone down, i may have kept on for years letting him have all the responsibility for making our marriage work, without ever realizing that i had work to do, too. i don't mean to say he pointed out that i'm an awful person, because that's not the case, but he did call me out on some behavior that i had never noticed and that is certainly not befitting of the person and partner that i WANT to be.
this whole experience has also brought me closer to god than i've ever been in my life. i've finally found a church that i love, where i feel like i belong, and i'm slowly learning to just let go of the death grip i've had on life and just trust that god will take care of me. this week's sermon is on the messiness of love. i plan to be in the front pew for that one.
(((talia)))!!!
thanks!
((((TTA)))))
THATS the kind of post I've been looking for!!! Keep that going - Now you are on the right street, driving confidently...
Proud of you!!
T
well, thanks, i get a lot of encouragement here!
on another note, i've also contacted a painter about painting my apartment before i move out at the end of this month. that's normally something my H would have handled, but i'm getting an estimate this weekend so i can just say, i took care of it already.
hhh, to answer your post (from OTM's thread), i know i'm not ready to date. AT ALL. my H just moved out this past saturday and when he moved, left me a note saying he was not unsure if separation was the answer for us, but that he felt it was his only option given our "history" and circumstances (he was starting a new job and hadn't slept a full night in weeks, we live in a TINY apartment where he couldn't be fully "separated" from me because we only have one bedroom and he wasn't getting any sleep on his buddy's couch, and he also has ADHD and focusing for him in a time when he's so stressed out and tired is really challenging). his note said that he was sure we'd talk over the coming weeks and "figure things out" and he has still not asked me to sign any legal documents.
i'm focusing on doing things that i love, tuning out the noise coming from my mother, spending more time with friends, and finally getting to eat all the couscous i want (my H hates it, therefore, i never cooked it at home)!!
i would certainly be open to meeting up if you're in the DC area, because my in person support group was a depressing, overwhelming DISASTER.
the thing is, i don't feel abandoned and i don't feel that my H isn't a good man and we have no animosity towards one another. the way he put it, he felt like a failure because he was unable to make me happy. since this has all come up (it's been about a month since he decided he wanted to separate), i've done a lot of reading and researching (i feel like i finished a semester's worth of psychology classes!), come to terms with some unpleasant realities about myself and my behavior, and have committed to making changes, with or without my H in my life. where that will ultimately take me and my M, i don't know...but my hope is that it will one day in the near future take me to retro. who knows? i'm just taking it one day at a time.
Dear TTA-oops and sorry - i realized i posted to you on someone else's. YOu are right (and I got confused w the timing...I think this was a ? Talia had posed about dating), you are definitely not ready. My H moved out Nov '08 and it was not until Sept '09 that I started dating/flirting. And nothing has been serious to date, truly, and don't think i'd be ready. But I went out w one a few times (god knows H has been hooking up a lot) once and it made me feel attractive again and desired and I just had fun. SO much fun...it was worth it for me but again this was 9 months later.
I like you combing through the Mars and Venus books...so insightful and helpful. As I go out in the world again I realize some men I met that have been D'd have a depth to them and lessons learned and I find that attractive..they can relate and their is a shared pain there. That is something we will be able to bring to the table if we go down that route too. You are still so early in the process and definitely way ahead of where I was then. And I, LIKE YOU, have a very overinvolved mother. I am moving back to CA next month to my hometown after 16 years on the east coast, and am a little nervous about being so close to her.
I think you are doing and trying all the right things. I have learned also what works for some does not work for others. There are things I said to H early on in our S (others might construe as pursuing) that I am glad I did...some of the stuff that I had learned about being a better more giving wife and partner. I did it for me, it felt good and I feel like I left no stone unturned. He responded quite positively at the time. But after he continued WAH mode, I let him go and that's prob the best thing you can do. (But for me it was important to acknowledge my role in things and let him know it soaked in...then you let them on their way).
You're still so early on. Things can easily turn around. You'll go stronger in this process. You'll rely on yourself and your friends and hobbies for happiness, not H. And you may get to a place/time - only you can determine that - when you don't want to keep out hope/hold on any longer... but in the meantime operate under the assumption that it's just you taking care of yourself, even when it hurts, and learn to really love yourself. I have a wonderful GF who went through a horrible breakup years ago - she was almost suicidal - and she's down a complete 180 w her life...she said you really need to learn to be your own 'internal mother'. Love and nurture yourself. treat yourself. think of all the good things about yourself. I can tend to be hard on myself and have very high expectations and standards for myself..which can be good but we also need to give ourselves a break. I work from home when I don't travel and LOVE the guilt-less shopping or massages or coffee breaks that I sometimes spontaneously take during the day. Love yourself. We can clearly tell that you are a thoughtful, insightful, caring, FUN person... (I smiled when I read earlier posts about martini and margarita consumption...sometimes I think this process is making me a lush!
have fun. know your worth. good things will come to you. we are here for you through these times.
much love and strength,
-hhh
((((HHH))))
thanks, h! i was just thinking a nice massage might help me relax and forget my troubles for a while. i do have a formal event for work that i'll be attending at the end of this month, so i'm looking forward to indulging in a fabulous new dress for that, plus revisiting my yoga practice and just spending a little more time with ME in the coming weeks.
i like the idea of being my own internal mother. god knows my external mother is making me nuts.
she called today and said "your sister told me your H took the tv. EVIL." i said, MOM. i TOLD him to take the tv. she goes, well, you can't live forever without a tv. i said, how do you explain life before the 1930's then?? her response? WHATEVER. she is ENTIRELY too involved in my situation and it's not only unhealthy for me, it's unhealthy for her, too. if anyone needs to focus more on their own happiness, it's her. i think she is taking this all as something that my H is doing to HER since regardless of what happens with him and i, it means at least 4 or 5 more years until she gets those grandchildren she has been dreaming about since i got my period!
you will be fine living in the same zip code as your mother, as long as you apply your DB boundaries to your relationship with her. i've never set boundaries with my mom and it's been an interesting process so far. she does not like it ONE BIT. too bad for her! THIS IS THE NEW ME!
slow evening. didn't actually do much. i wrote a letter to my H in my journal and let out a lot of anger and feelings of confusion. he'll never see the letter, but it was good to at least get it out of my head and onto paper.
ran into H's best friend while walking the dog tonight, chatted with him for a bit but didn't ask about my H much. i just said i was doing ok and had signed up for yoga classes and was keeping really busy at work.
feel the tylenol pm kicking in so...off to dreamland for me.
Good for you and journaling! I've written a few letters to H lately that I don't plan on showing him, but good to get these thoughts out/process emotions.
I got a good sleep finally last night..but some issues with mom today regarding my impending move that I need to deal with. ugh. it's hard when you have mom and H issues at the same time but you need to DB both places I guess.
Went out w some friends tonite but was feeling kinda sad/tired again..I think it's good to push yourself to go out and do things, but these emotions come and go. Sometimes it just hurts so bad, doesn't it? But we will survive this.
I hope you sleep well. Keep up the yoga and work distractions.
hugs,
hhh
HI TTA,
I write letters to H all the time - I have one notebook just for that! Its helped me "voice" all my feelings toward him without actually voicing it - been a great tool. Funny thing is not all the letters are angry (many are) some of them are things that I would normally tell him but can't - conversations I want to have with him, that kind of thing. Its been very cathartic and helps me not feel the emptiness that comes with not being able to confide in your primary confidante... Yet another great suggestion from my IC
I agree with you - your mom needs a life!!! WOW! How is THAT DBing going? Sounds like you are holding strong - good job!
I hear you on the not ready to date thing... just feels so WEIRD! I'm sure that will change
.... eventually...
You are handling this whole thing really well - We can tell you are stronger every day!!!
Have a great day,
T
i think i'll keep going on the letters to my H in my journal. there are so many things i want to tell him throughout the day and it's hard that i can't just pick up the phone or send him an email about them...so i can see how it would be helpful to at least have that outlet.
i'm trying to hold strong but it just feels like a front to me. everyone acts like i'm going to break at any minute. seriously, if one more person looks at me, frowns, and says, "how are you holding up, are you doing ok?" i might lose it. even my sister, who has been so helpful and supportive, every time i talk to her, it's how are you feeling, how are you doing? i understand that people in my life are just concerned about me, but HELLO, i do have a life outside of my H and i do not want to talk about the sad state of my marital life ALL THE TIME. every time i see my mom i have to say, mom, i appreciate that you're worried about me and i'm so grateful to know that you are here for me, BUT...i really don't want to talk about my H right now, i need a mental break. my mom is a BIG TIME boundary crosser, so it's like, every time i draw a line in the sand, she goes plowing right over it. like i said earlier, she is WAY more involved in this than i would like, she even sent my H a letter (which i intercepted and did not deliver to him) because she felt she needed to "express herself to him." it's MY marriage, so why SHE feels she is entitled to express her disappointment to my H is beyond me. i haven't heard a PEEP from my h's family, i have talked to his sister twice, but they all stay as uninvolved as they can.
i do feel stronger every day but i also miss my H more and more every day. i'm still experience the very uncomfortable and unpleasant feeling of being lonely, even when in a social situation. and, since i still haven't shared the news of my separation with all my friends, when they ask where he is, i feel compelled to lie rather than get into the whole story. i do think that due to all the self help books, i'm learning more about myself than i've ever really even cared to know, and knowing that i posses the tools and the power to implement change in my own life is a very good feeling.
thanks for all the great advice. i'd probably be backsliding every other day if it weren't for this site!
I know how you feel and many others do as well. Hang in there you are doing great the SH books are a huge help. You are taking the time to learn about yourself and deal w/ your emotions, feelings, and mental health.
There's only good things that can come of that!
I had to tell my dad that I didn't want to talk about it. He's welcome to talk to my W, but not me. If he starts into it, I change the topic, or bluntly say that I won't talk about it and I'll need to go. It hurts to do it, but his well meaning thoughts don't help.
well just got another short email from my H. apparently his sister told him that from my facebook page updates, it seems like i'm in good spirits. he ended his email saying he knew this was trying on both of us and he wished he had the words or actions to make this better.
i don't know how to respond to that, so i guess i won't.
TTA,
I only have one thing to add....
FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT!!!!!!
T
thanks, talia. if i get any better at faking, i might have to become an actress!
i just don't know what to make of emails like that, where my H says he wishes he knew what to say or do to make things better. it makes me feel like he STILL has no hope for us, despite expressing that separation may not have been the best answer. i know i need to stop worrying and thinking so much about him and focus on myself. tonight's goal is 3 miles on the treadmill, some meditative yoga at home, and a quiet dinner and a movie (now that i have no tv, i have to watch dvds on my relatively small laptop - tonight's selection is the black and white classic "in cold blood" - read the book and loved it and i am a SUCKER for old movies).
less of HIM, more of ME.
i just don't know what to make of emails like that, where my H says he wishes he knew what to say or do to make things better.
When I talk to my W, as soon as I say anything that sounds like I'm confused, not ready, can't get s.thing out of my mind, she immediately sees the worst.
I was thinking that was her, but I'm now wondering if maybe that is part of ADHD traits, I can say what others would not usually say. Maybe, maybe, his emails & his views are cool to the touch without him knowing. Either way, one think I know is when my W feels I've given up, she acts angry, or pursues. Maybe just let it go as part of his process, if you want to.
Enjoy the movie...
thanks, OTM. i didn't react negatively to him. i know that going back and forth is just part of his chemical makeup, but of course, it's still hard to hear yes, no, maybe, i don't know and have any idea of what to think.
i just let it go. maybe it is a part of his process, i'm not sure, but i will certainly work to not allow myself to pursue or act out in anger.
i really can't tell you how insightful it's been to have your input, as someone who knows what it's like to be in my h's shoes (and in his brain!). thanks!
TTA,
I know I keep telling you to go dark, and this is a perfect example of why.
I surmise that H is telling you those things because he's looking to have a few of his emotional needs met by you. That something my H has done periodically and thankfully I had been around here lurking and read others posts about what to look for. I'm not sure if you should meet his EN's or not - I don't think I'm qualified to advise on that. I stopped early on in this - for my own sanity. Every time I fed into meeting his EN's I also started obsessing about what that could mean. Going dark for me stopped that. I was dark, there fore I "couldn't" respond to those emails... therefore I had nothing to obsess about. You have to decide what best protects your emotions. H hasn't stopped trying to get EN's met by me, but now I secretly laugh when I see that's what he's doing.
WAS ups and downs - for whatever reason - just beat the hell out of us LBSs. Its not fair that we have to be battered emotionally when they aren't sure what they want. That's the hardest thing. I can't speak from experience. My H has not waivered since he left.
HE decided that this would be best for both of us, so
HE is going to be the bad guy, and
HE believes I'll be better off in the long run and
HE can't ever forgive me for being depressed.
Truth is - none of this is about me and very little of what your H is going through is about you. Just remember that as you try to ignore the false ray of hope emanating from your email....
You handled it right and I'm proud of what you are doing. Its wonderful to see you starting to truly take care of you!!!
((((TTA)))))
T
thanks for the reality check, talia. i know sometimes i go a little overboard with trying to read into what my H is saying in every text, note, email, and face to face meeting. i've been as dark as possible, only responding to notes about financial issues (since we have joint accounts and bills), and i do know that the decisions he's made have been his own and it does feel like they have very little to do with me. when we almost separated in 2008, i think he had a mini MLC (at the ripe old age of 28) and i think some of his actions lately have been driven by the same thoughts that drove him to want to separate once before.
i know i should stop trying to understand every little thing he says or does. i know i should focus more on my EN's than his. i am not in any hurry for him to decide he wants to commit to this, but i DO have to move out of my apartment in less than a month (lease is up and i can't afford to live there without my H), which means either moving in with my sister and putting my things in storage, or signing a lease of my own and with him going back and forth, it makes it hard for me to move on and (literally) move out when i'm feeling like there could be a chance for reconciling.
got a call from my mother on my way home from work...the second i answer, i hear, "you need to pack your things and go stay with your sister tonight." we're expecting a LOT of snow starting tomorrow afternoon and i know she was just worried about me being snowed in, but i told her i have to go to work tomorrow, plus my sister would have to drive here to get me and the dog since i no longer have a car, not to mention drive us back here in the morning so i could leave the dog at my apartment. i ATTEMPTED to draw a line, i said, mom, i appreciate that you're worried but i'm a grown up and i won't be stranded alone, i live in a building full of other people, so don't worry about me i will be fine. her response was a huffy "whatever" and she quickly hung up.
sometimes i feel like my mother is giving me a damn harder time than my H is.
anyway, that was just a rant. we are supposed to get a lot of snow over the weekend and it would be so nice to be snowed in with the dog and my H. i know that's wishful thinking, and i do have friends in my apartment building, but it's not the same. besides, not much GAL-ing to be done when everything in the city is closed cause of the snow. i did stock up on wine and movies, but...it would just be nice if he were here to keep me warm, i guess. i do have a 90 pound dog who thinks he's a snuggie, so i guess i don't have it that bad. but even with all the GAL-ing, at the end of the day, i'm having one-sided conversations with a dog and it gets lonely.
i looked for apartments online today. have only gone i think 1 or 2 days with NC in the last few weeks. i never contact him first, so i guess it's nice that he's at least reaching out in some way, even if it's just to talk about our storage unit or bank account or something. he did say he felt i was doing a lot better in the self-improvement department than he was. but i also have my church and a much better support system than he does.
there's really no point to this post, i'm just talking out loud. the dog got tired of listening so, i had to take it to the internets.
My dad does the huff and puff...but I just understand that he is hurt that I can't talk to him.
Maybe you can make a snowman that looks like your H, kiss it, then hit it really hard! I wonder if my W punched me if I would just wake up from this mutual nightmare?
Isn't it selfish that we don't get our spouses online here? I know why I don't, I'm afraid she'll find a post about her and then....BAM!
Maybe you can teach the dog to talk during the snow?
very funny, otm. i've been narrating my dog's life since the day he came home from the animal shelter 5 years ago! if he hasn't learned to speak for himself yet, he clearly has nothing to say!
i do feel the same way, like, if only i could get my H to do this much work and read the books i'm reading or talk to other people in our situation, MAYBE he'd come around...but you're right, i'd flip out if my H ever saw a post about himself. not that i've ever posted that he was a selfish a-hole. cause that's just not even true.
i like the snowman idea. i think it would be very theraputic to kick a snowman where the sun don't shine.
Maybe he's a text message kind of dog...
TTA, listen to Talia. You need to back way off and use the time to work on yourself. It is pointless thinking about spending time with H or doing X, Y, or Z to make him see the light. Use this alone time to figure out what truly makes TTA happy and what would the best possible TTA look like.
Get your own apartment. Pick out a place that YOU like. Make it feel like YOUR home. Signing a lease does not close the door on H, it's just a lease. Even if H wants to reconcile tomorrow it would not be wise to jump right back into things. This time for yourself is an opportunity that not everyone gets, use it wisely.
thanks, girls. i'm doing my best to use my "me time" wisely, although i will admit to my fair share of crying myself to sleep last night. i should have sent out invitations to THAT pity party! my H only moved out one week ago, so i guess i'm just still adjusting to being on my own for the first time in 5 years. not that i don't think i'm capable of doing it.
i know signing a lease doesn't close the door but it doesn't seem to do much to keep it open, either.
my H only moved out one week ago, so i guess i'm just still adjusting to being on my own for the first time in 5 years.
i know signing a lease doesn't close the door but it doesn't seem to do much to keep it open, either.
You shouldn't worry about having a pity party as long as it doesn't consume you. While my 11 years is longer than 5, even as a guy sort-of in the driver's seat, it is hard to avoid. Your worries about the lease seem normal and natural. Gnosis said something like 'responding' instead of 'reacting'. If you are responding and the emotions are in the way, it's a problem~
i try not to let it consume me, but this is so new i'm not quite over the hump yet. last night was the first time i'd cried in at least a few days. hopefully some QT with friends this weekend will help get me out of my funk, and i did get to the gym last night and did some yoga at home - only to end up sobbing my way through my poses.
what's the difference between responding and reacting?? isn't responding with emotion the same thing as reaction?
Responding is an answer. Reacting is that gut feeling that directs your mind and body. I’m VERY bad at responding!
Another way to look at it is the 'four horsemen' (contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, and ...the other one) get us to react. So I guess I'm trying to say that if your emotional release is a realese and can help you make a response that is calm, you shouldn't worry - it might be very good to let it out.
it's really amazing what 2 miles on the treadmill will do for your attitude. especially when there are cute boys in the gym with you.
even better when you get home and find out you won free tickets to a play you wanted to see.
OTM, thanks for your response...i guess i just feel like i'm not being driven by the horsemen right now. i'm not angry or have any bad or negative feelings towards my H. i'm just sad. i can't make up his mind for him, but i haven't been saying negative, knee-jerk things to him over the last few weeks, either. so i don't feel like i've been reacting. i'm sure i let contempt in the driver's seat a little too often over the course of our M, but that's not where i am emotionally right now.
just sad. but. 2 bottles of wine and a slumber party at my sister's should help temporarily cure that which ails me.
TTA,
I find it funny that beating the crap out of my physical being does so much for my mental being.....
GOOD KARMA today! Puttin out the good vibes.
Just remember - you are miles and miles ahead of where you could be since H left. YOU are doing wonderful things to deal with this and you don't have to be perfect.
The solution to not being perfect is ABSOLUTELY a slumber part and 2 bottles of wine!!!
Have Fun!
T
made myself get up this morning and hike 2 miles in the snow to yoga. i set a goal for myself and i followed through on it. the hike was long and hard but yoga made it worthwhile! felt good to accomplish that! the 2 mile hike back UP the hill was a little trying, though...
having a fun girl's weekend with my sister. we are totally snowed in. H texted this morning and just said he hoped i was safe in this weather, which i guess was nice of him. went to a bar with my sister last night and i will admit to being a bit mopey. still miss him so much.
spent some time at a girlfriend's today, she's also a life coach so we talked about where i'm at and i think i'm in a pretty good place, all things considered. i have my moments, but things could be a LOT worse.
it took all the strength i have not to text or email my H today. i just wanted to make sure he was ok in all the snow, but i resisted contacting him. he knows how to reach me when he's ready to talk. i'm still doing my best to focus on ME and pursue things that will make me happy, but 95% of the time, i feel mostly like i'm just trying to distract myself. i miss my H all the time. it's been over a month since he decided he wanted to separate, which i know isn't that long of a time, but it seems like it's been a year. absence can make the heart grow fonder, but can't it make it forget, too??
Dear TTA,
I SO know these feelings. I worried about H too early last yr when I hadn't heard from him in days..but it is still pursuit and shows him you are not moving on. My mom told me to call her whenever I felt a stronge urge to call him and she'd talk me out of it. I'd call a friend, or go for a run, do yoga, anything to distract...and yes it may seem like a distraction at first but I firmly believe that it changes your 'energy' (for lack of a better word). You force yourself out of necessity - will yourself, even if you don't feel like it - to do other things, get lost in other things ('the flow' of an activity you like) - and your mental patterns start to shift so you STOP obsessing about them so much. I do have moments where I still slip back, but now I know the tools and how to get myself out of these places. You start to view it as a fun challenge. It's a shift of your mental energy and then even your aura starts to follow (I know I'm sounding like a new age guru here!) Other people notice it and give back to you what you give off.
I'll get sad sometimes yes, but remind myself that I FEEL so much better when I focus on the above. It's almost a decision you make yourself make.
I think the growing fonder/forgetting wanes and wafts a bit over this process. Moments when I don't think about him at all, then when I feel like I miss him more... but over time the balance shifts so you start to feel better/more ok without them, you don't need them and you can be happy on your own. For any R to work, you have to be happy on your own anyway, so best to focus on that. Try to think of it as a fun challenge..and when you have your moments of sadness let yourself feel them. I get to those sorta-dark places sometimes, and then I get tired of feeling that way and it reminds me to get the hell outta that place... the too longer you linger there the more it sticks so you need to make conscious effort to help yourself as much as you can. Lean on your friends and family for support and we're here for you too!
You're a great person and he's a fool...his loss, for now at least! You're working on yourself and he's running away.
You CAN do this.
big hugs,
hhh
it took all the strength i have not to text or email my H today.
Is it fair to say you're probably wondering how he manages to feel the pain of separating but not come running back?
It might be a gender thing, perhaps it is just a bit easier for men to get busy with work, friends and other things so moving on is easier. If he really does think his love for you is there, but the R is toxic to him, then maybe it is better for you to break it off now than to make it work, have kids, and then later in life MLC comes along and he'd be gone. Remember, so far, you are working on you, but he is not from what you've said changing himself much.
I'm not saying don't hope, I think you must. Personally, I would feel overjoyed to hear that he's come 'home' - it might even strengthen my own resolve.
But see the other side of the coin, too. When you begin feeling lost, remember to flip that coin to the side that acknowledges the long term repercussions if it broke off later in life.
i think that's fair, OTM. i do want to know how he can hurt so much and still keep his distance, i guess. he did text me this morning and just again say he hoped the dog and i had everything we needed.
i don't know if he feels the R is toxic, but he has said he feels chipped away at, since in the 5 years that we've been together, he's never able to "keep" me happy, but i also know he susbscribes to the man way of thinking that once a woman feels assured in her love, that she'll always feel that way. i know he got tired of assuring me over the years, but i think most women operate in that cycle of needing to know they are loved.
H has said to me a few times that he'd rather do this now than in 5 years or more and have to deal with custody of children. but what guarantee does he have that neither of this would be dealing with this 5 or 10 years down the road with someone else? just because we split up and remarried wouldn't mean we'd be any safer from D than we are now. at least IMO. and he's already HAD a MLC, or at least i feel like that's what he went through in 2008 when he wanted to split.
i do continue to work on me and thanks, HHH, for your input. i know that sooner or later, my "distractions" will become the norm for me and i won't feel as lonely or sad. i am not giving up my hope, but it gets harder to hold on to every day. it just seems like 2 people who love each other would be able to work things out like grown ups instead of running from their problems and refusing to work them out.
i think that's fair, OTM. i do want to know how he can hurt so much and still keep his distance, i guess. he did text me this morning and just again say he hoped the dog and i had everything we needed.
How did that make you feel? Maybe that is the kind of hope you need to hold on to. Not a "I wish I could", but "you never know"...
but i think most women operate in that cycle of needing to know they are loved.
I'm starting to get that idea more. I hope he is, too, for the sake of any R he is in.
For me, the idea that problems might come up later with someone else has come up many times. There is a certain degree of hope in the N.American man perhaps that says I've learned and won't screw up or, we were just a bad mix that tasted really good. I'm not agreeing - I've read too much for that. I wish I could talk to him and convince him to read what I've read!
Going through ADHD as a married person is like a MLC, but it isn't.
OTM, i think that's exactly how that text made me feel. it wasn't like he was saying "i wish i could be there with you," but the fact that i know he's thinking about me gives me something to hold onto. it's a tiny sliver of hope, but it's still there.
if you haven't read mars and venus, i would really recommend it. if nothing else, the chapter about how women are like waves made so much sense to me and it made me think, hey! i'm NORMAL! other people feel the SAME WAY I DO! there's also a chapter about how men are like rubber bands, and knowing that when my H pulls away, it's not necessarily because he loves me any less would have been SO helpful to me 6 months ago. it just gives you so much perspective on how men and women function in relationships!
i think maybe that for someone with ADHD, it's hard to avoid the problems, or to avoid thinking that something else will come up later on. when you've dealt with being treated differently your whole life, it's not surprising that my H would feel the way he feels. not that i understand WHY he feels that way, but i can understand HOW he would feel that way, if that makes sense.
my mom tells me that even if we worked things out, i could expect him to want to leave off and on for the rest of our lives. i don't necessarily believe that, because i think that there are plenty of people out there with ADHD that function normally and happily with their non-ADHD spouses. i just feel like i've been given the secrets to living happily ever after and i am able to see how so much of my behavior, no matter how benign i thought it was, felt to him like criticism, judgment and resentment. i had so much to learn and i still do, and throwing in the towel now just seems crazy. now i understand how my actions and reactions affect him! now i understand how his actions and reactions aren't necessarily a reflection of how he feels about ME!
if you could convince him to read what you've read, i just might nominate you for a nobel peace prize! i can't get him to read anything but books related to his work field!
The book's on hold for me at the library...
I know the wish I had feeling. If I knew what I know now a few years ago, I would be much more comforatable deciding to stay M
I know this is not the typical DB stuff, but have you tried talking about the books you've read, like little one-liners? If he is ready to bolt, then he can see you change. If he's bolted, as long as you aren't pursing, I can't help think that something needs to find its way in his lap. At the same time, I know that if you give it to him like "here, read this" he'll probably say that he is tired of R work. He just wants it to work, I think.
Something like what you said, "i just feel like i've been given the secrets to living happily ever after and i am able to see how so much of my behavior, no matter how benign i thought it was, felt to him like criticism, judgment and resentment" in might let him know that you're changing, even though he can't see it.
I wouldn't mind a peace prize...can you get my wife to work as hard as you are on my M and I'll nominate you back?
LOL. i'll get right on that, OTM. i've always wanted a peace prize!
i actually did tell him the other week at lunch that i've been reading a lot and it's helped me understand a lot more about myself and made me feel like our situation isn't completely abnormal and that a lot of other people go through these feelings. i've talked about how it's made me see myself differently, as well as our R and M, but, nothing seems to have sunk in with him just yet.
did just get a text from him that he felt scared and alone and that he didn't understand his feelings or what the source of the pain he was in was. he said his mom suggested seeing a new IC, so i just said, i'm sorry you feel that way and maybe seeing someone would help you sort those feelings out.
some of my interactions with him are not typical DB stuff, but like someone said here to me, you have to tailor advice to suit your situation because everyone's is different. and in all honesty, my H isn't the type of person who would respond to me going completely dark and not responding to him at all.
he's even said he doesn't feel like i am pushing him at all, so i'm almost starting to think that he's just in that overwhelmed place that he goes to in his head when he doesn't know where else to go. and i hate seeing him feel that way. i know i can't worry too much about how he's feeling, but i was born with a swollen empathy gland and i don't like to see ANYONE hurting and i always feel compelled to help. i know HE is the only one who can help himself and all i can do is pray for him and just continue working on myself, but i can't bottle up that feeling of wanting to be there for him, despite the fact that my heart is broken into a million pieces.
"he's even said he doesn't feel like i am pushing him at all"
Has he ever wanted you too? I'm just asking because I'm wondering why he'd tell you that.
i don't know that he's wanted me to...he was saying he felt lost (among other things) and i said, i don't want to push you, but i'm here if you need to talk. his response was, you haven't been pushing at all. i don't know if that meant he was looking to me to pursue him or if he was just saying he didn't feel pressured by me.
Have you ever pursued him since Jan 1?
ummmm...not really. i did some crying when he said he wanted to separate, but even during that initial conversation, i said, i can't make you stay, so if this is what you want...
my grandmother died on january 6. i assumed he would not want to come to the funeral, but he did, completely on his own accord. he said he wanted to be there to support me. he drove an hour to the airport here, flew into new orleans, and drove an hour to the funeral, only to turn around and go back less than 24 hours later. he was by my side the entire day of the funeral and even served as a pallbearer. we did not say one word about the R for about a week or so after this.
he asked me to lunch, i accepted and we talked about how we would divide things. since he moved out, i have only initiated contact once, otherwise, i wait to hear from him. i don't even know where he lives now, and i don't have a car anymore, so it's not like i could even take the drive by route if i wanted to.
i have done my best to give him space, be friendly but distant, and not throw myself on the floor in tears in his presence.
i have also made it clear that i had not lost faith in our M and that i wasn't ready to give up. but i would not say i have pursued him. with him, once he makes up his mind, there is nothing to do but sit back and wait, anyway.
i guess by responding to his texts and saying i was around to talk if he wanted to could be seen as pursuing, but again, it's the most response i've gotten out of him in the last few weeks.
Is it possible that he is waiting to see that you really, really want the M forever?
Is it possible that the immense amount of committment and love you seem to have for him he just hasn't accepted / realized.
I really, really thought my W didn't care much for me and would eventually leave. This despite spending a bit of time together, going camping, ML, etc.
He may very well know how you feel. I'm just asking in case you didn't ask yourself.
i don't know, all of those things could be possible.
he did just call and leave me a message. he said he was going to try and find a counselor to talk to. and he ended the message by saying he loves me. he hasn't said that to me in over a month.
i can't imagine that my H would feel like i didn't care much for him, but maybe in his head he felt that way or he felt like he wasn't making me happy because i would seek assurance from him every few months (on the downside of my "wave" which i learned after reading mars and venus - so glad that one's in your que!). but i guess no one ever knows what someone else is really thinking.
i don't know how to respond to that message.
Welcoming? If he went on a limb to say he loves you, why not return the favour? Not chasing him down, but reaching down to his core. I would love my wife to send me choc/card recognizing my work. Even if we D, I'd have one of those memories to keep. How would your H react or respond?
A counselor might make things worse, but it is a great option. Can he afford/would he accept for you to suggest a Divorce Busting coach?
TTA,
You responded perfectly to his text about feelings. Keeping it neutral and pushing him to IC is a great idea. He needs to explore his feelings - he's still kinda looking to you to do that for him. When you can't it breeds doubt. Sounds to me like he has been looking to you to make him happy and now that its clear you can't he doesn't know what to do. He needs to learn to be happy himself... but none of that really matters since he doesn't read this forum...
Just remember - most people project... Usually what they say is wrong with you are the things that are wrong within them! At least that's true for my H...
The best thing you can do is lovingly encourage him to get some help dealing with his feelings... and believe that if you two are meant to be together that path will lead him home. Faith...
You guys (and me too) are doing alot of trying to read his mind. I know it makes you feel better to do that - and its OK on this forum a little bit - just be careful not to do it too much.
Believe nothing they say and half of what they do... that doesn't help if you are trying to read minds... be careful or you will drive yourself crazy!!
You guys (and me too) are doing alot of trying to read his mind.
True. Isn't it normal though, and I would argue important, in the first few months when you are trying to attract back a WAS/WAH? As long as it never becomes your life and meaning, how else could you do that when the other S isn't talking or isn't sure?
I'm not sure what I want in my M. If my wife could better understand what I do say, she would probably not overreact. She might also see that I'm not the one she loves, or better yet, I might see that she is the one who really gets me. It's a lot of hoping, but it is positive and isn't chasing. Once an understanding is there, then it is action time - and DB is all about action.
Isn't it normal though, and I would argue important, in the first few months when you are trying to attract back a WAS/WAH?
No, I don't think it's important. As long as you're basing your actions on mind reading and trying to attract back a WAS they won't work. If your changes aren't genuine and made for the right reasons then the WAS will see right through them. And if the WAS returns home, you stop the changes and the WAS says,
See, I knew you weren't really going to change.You work on becoming the best person possible for you. If that attracts your WAS back, great. If it doesn't then you are better off for your next R or being on your own.
thanks, guys...i understand the concern about the "mind reading." it helps me try to gauge where we are, and i know that despite what he says, he may be feeling something entirely different. i don't think i'm trying to use it to win him back, i'm keeping the focus on myself, but like i said, it does help me know where we stand. if he's telling me he misses me, he doesn't know what to do, he is feeling scared and lost and that he loves me, of course i'm trying to figure out what is on his mind for real, but it also tells me that he's not entirely ready to serve me up with D papers which helps me in my responses to him.
i know that i'm making changes and they are starting to stick...normally if i'd heard him crying on the phone i would cry too and say whatever i needed to say to make him feel better. but this time i held my ground, told him i was sorry he felt that way, and suggested that maybe he did need to find a professional to talk to.
OTM, i did tell him "i love you, too" in response, and he seemed relieved to hear it. even ended by saying "i'll see you soon...maybe we can talk again later this week." that is the kind of thing i think DR would call a "baby step."
That's not a step a baby could've done, or a teen, or many adults. You've done amazing things, TTA. While it might not pan out, so keep working on you, it just might, too.
Amazing how 3 words can be so powerful. I really hope there'll be a day soon I can do that for my wife, too~
i did cry when i got off the phone with him. i've been longing for him to say that to me for over a month and he just said it out of the blue. it took me a full ten seconds to take it in and then respond. i never doubted that he loves me. he seems to be in a really low place emotionally right now...i know i can't do anything to help him, and he said he would look into an IC, and i just said that my coach had been very helpful for me in terms of keeping my head on straight. i don't know if i could offer a DB coach to him...and he certainly couldn't afford it. i could hardly afford it, either!
on another note...i got the keys to my new apartment today! i am moving to another unit in my same building and got a great deal from the leasing woman - who happens to also be going through a separation! - and my H is going to pay half and i'll pay half. it's such a cute little studio and i'm actually looking forward to moving in and setting it up. i will only be in there for 3-4 months, but it buys me some time from having to move out completely and i couldn't afford to stay in the unit i'm in now, even with my H paying half. so. come weekend after next, i'll have a brand new space to call my own!
Congratulations!!! Sounds like you are moving in the right direction - and so is H!!! Keep doing what you are doing - its key to be consistent even when it looks like things are getting better.
You are doing great!!!
T
i'm sure it will be nice to be out of the place i shared with my H. my lease is up at the end of this month so i was going to have to move anyway, so...it's nice to have that taken care of. just have to get my current place painted (my mom thinks i should have my H take care of it, since - in her opinion - it's the LEAST he could do, so i may ask him about that, but not sure). it's exciting to think about having a new place that is all my own, but at the same time...i do miss my H so much and don't really WANT to live alone. but maybe the space is what we need.
Just remember - suffering is a choice. You CHOOSE to make this a good thing for you or not. You ALWAYS have a choice - always.
Just because you may not always like the options to choose from - you still have a choice. Choose wisely...
OH - STOP listening to your mom. She's clearly vengeful.
Take care of the painting yourself... you'll feel empowered to know you didn't need H to do anything for you.... Time to be self sufficient. Can you paint it yourself?? Its not as hard as it seems and much cheaper... I did it!!!
Remember - keep it about you!!
Proud of you,
T
Maybe instead of asking him to do the painting, ask him if he wants to share the cost of getting it done, or do it together. This gives an opportunity for you to show off the improving you. It also gives him the opportunity to decide how connected he wants to be now. Esp. with V day coming up.
Hi, I've never commented on your thread, but just caught up quickly and all I can say is that as scary as it is to think of living alone, if you really want to make this marriage work, then sometimes it is necessary. If your H isn't in the place you want him to be yet, distance may very well put him there. I come from an experience where H left for two and half months. Not very long compared to some others on this site, but let me tell you how many wonders it did for our marriage. Had we not separated, we would not be where we are today. It really can do wonders for you. And if it doesn't that's okay too. Because regardless, you will learn alot about yourself as well. Which can help you in the future, with or without your H. Keep your head up. You sound like you are in a good place!
TTA, I agree with Talia. Do the painting yourself. It's incredibly empowering to do home improvement projects. You can look at the end results & know that you did it by yourself. Next thing you know you'll be getting your own tools & becoming a real Ms. Fixit.
thanks for all the good advice, everyone! my H texted today just to make sure i was ok in the snow and he said thanks for listening to me yesterday, and that he was going to look for a counselor/therapist to talk to. i don't know what it means that he keeps reaching out to me, but i'm trying to stop mind reading and just keep focusing on myself.
the snow is really coming down, and i'm looking at my third day in a row of being off work due to the weather. forced myself down to the gym today and then made myself a nice dinner...cooking for myself is something i haven't done in a while but it sure beats frozen dinners or take out. not sure what to do with myself tomorrow, but hopefully i'll start on an art project i've been putting off forever.
sometimes i just want to call him, yell ENOUGH WITH THIS DRAMA!! and tell him to just get back here.
It feels great to exercise, doesn't it? Getting rid of the TV dinner must be a nice relief, too.
I just read on someone's post that their process helped them become happier and stronger. It sounds like that is where you are heading, too~
it does feel good to exercise, and since i'm pretty much stuck inside all day because of the blizzard, i think i'll hit the gym again today. i can only hope i'm heading towards being happier and stronger. sometimes i feel like, yes, i can do this! other times i backslide and cry into my pillow that i just want my H to come home. i know everyone goes through that.
deep down i KNOW that no matter what happens with my H and i that i will survive, i will become stronger, happier and closer to my faith because of all of this. but getting to that deep down place and REALLY letting go of the fear and anxiety and sadness is the hard part!
sigh. it also doesn't help that my H is texting me saying things like, i wish i was there (at our apartment) with you (and the dog) - everyone is snowed in today and he's at his place alone. so i know part of that is just him being lonely, but why would he say things like that to me when it was HIS IDEA for him to move out in the first place? he WOULD be here with us if he hadn't decided that separating was best for us and moved out!!!
UGH- I know that's tough. Think of it as him casting out lines to twist you again. I would literally kill for my WAW to text me something like that. Not gonna happen, so I make my own happiness.
You are strong and you have grown. He is the one who is confused...do not comfort him or say "me too- or I miss you."
This is his crap- let him stew
It is clear that moving hasn't disconnected him - that's probably a good thing in the long run. He might be just lamenting old memories. He might also be expressing a new found/remembered love.
I wouldn't worry about responding or not. If you feel like doing it, why not? Would it hurt you or him to reply?
TTA,
Are you staying warm and safe?! I keep thinking of you when I see the news. Hope you are filling your time with fun things!!
T
so this is interesting...
i was down in the common room of my building, working on a photo project when i look up and see my H walk into the building. let me preface by saying there is a BLIZZARD going on outside and that he lives a good 15 miles away now, and no chance he was able to drive here.
he came upstairs, we talked for a good couple of hours. about how he's so confused, he's second guessing himself, he misses me...i told him i'm sorry he's feeling that way but that it was his decision to leave and that as far as i was concerned, we BOTH had to be willing to commit to working on the M, and from what i understood, he wasn't there yet.
i'm not really sure where we left it, but it was good to see him and he did say that i seemed very collected. when he left, we hugged and he said he'd see me soon. i did also tell him that as understanding as i wanted to be, it was also very confusing for me to hear him say one week he wanted to move out, and less than 2 weeks later, he's telling me how much he misses being with me. he said he knew he was being unfair to me.
i think he wanted to kiss me when he left but i made it obvious that it wasn't going to happen. i had NO IDEA he would come over today of all days (literally, we got about 10 inches of snow today!) and i really don't know what to do (if anything) next???
Blow it off for now. He's confused. Don't let his confusion be yours. He'll probably do this a few more times and then go back to blaming you for HIS issues and why he's so unhappy. It's called cycling.
For now, don't contact him, and let the need for you continue to grow in him. You want it go get so bad in him that he's going to be willing to get help for his problems.
thanks, stuck...he did say he's looking for a counselor to talk to. maybe that will help him sort out his emotions, but in the meantime, i'm working on not letting his emotions confuse me. NOT an easy thing to do!
TTA,
Stuck is right! Just keep encouraging him to get help for himself. He needs to discover his own happiness. Responding to his confusion with something like "It must be very difficult to be so conflicted. Having someone help you sort that out might be a good option" will show him your support and push him to get some help.
You handled it great!!!!
T
(((((TTA)))))
That has to be the hardest thing to handle when you can't leave the house to be distracted. Hang in there!
T
thanks, talia! that's what i told him, that i was sorry he was so conflicted but that maybe he could find someone to help him deal with all his feelings ...
thank GOD i have wine in the fridge in this damn snowstorm!! it's my saving grace today!
that and the treadmill. i need to run some of this frustration out!
I remember when I thought my sitch was very bleak, that my W and I hugged. She said she wanted one hug to remember. It was a great feeling ~ one that helped lead me to not give up at that point.
If you talked for hours, it sounds like you had an opportunity. Do you think he feels more assured that you are working on you, and that is a good thing if he decides to get his butt back where it should have been?
So he's confused...he's human. So are you. His confusion hurts you. Of course it does, don't feel bad about that.
Maybe a text saying you loved the conversation and you hope he finds a good IC to work out his feelings.
I think if he said that he knew he was being unfair, he might be feeling guilty. Guilt leads to shame, not away from it. I think letting him you know you aren't holding a grudge, even though it hurts, lets him know you aren't going to be crying 'how did you' if he wakes up to your coffee one day.
Either way it goes next, sounds like you handled yourself well~
thanks, OTM. i really tried to keep my cool while he was here. of course i just wanted to melt into his arms and tell him everything was going to be ok, but i didn't...i think he sees i'm making positive changes in my life, hopefully that could help give him an extra boost to get his as$ in gear, too.
i'm sure he felt some guilt, but i calmly expressed to him that i was confused at how he could tell me he was sure this was what he wanted 2 weeks ago and now be at a point where he's not sure. i said, part of me wants to say, you COULD be home with me and the dog, getting a good night's sleep and not being alone, had you not decided to move out, so i don't really know what you want me to say. i understand that you felt that you had to move out, but at the same time, it still really hurt me that you did.
who knows where this will go. he texted again to say it was worth the trek out here in the blizzard to see me. i guess only time will tell, and i'll just keep working on me.
it did feel SO GOOD to hug him again, though...
What did he say about the apartment lease, if anything? Did it come up?
Oh, by the way, consider how good the hug felt, recognize that hugs from all men you love might feel just as good, and choose to use it as a strength, not as a source of sadness. He needs your help by you helping yourself.
Did you decide about the painting?
OTM,
You have slightly redeemed yourself with the above post
That is the best advice you have given - you are learning!!!
Oh - and you are not the "wolf" - maybe just the black sheep?
You are making strides and its good to see you giving great advice as you go - keep it up!!!
T
Sorry for the hijack!!
all very sound advice...i'd probably have thrown myself at his feet without the things i've learned from all of you on this site!
i am doing my best to be strong and becoming the best person i can be. i know i can only hope that my H will take my lead and work on himself, too...but it does give me little rays of hope when he does things like trek through a blizzard to see me.
the hug definitely didn't make me feel sad...it made me feel hopeful. and the way his body relaxed into my arms gave me the impression that he felt the same way. i know he has to want to help himself and he has to want to work on our M, but at least for the moment i don't feel like he's made up his mind against our life together. which motivates me to work on myself even more.
That's great to hear, TTA
by the way, OTM...my H didn't say anything about me not moving. he did offer to paint and spackle when i move out next weekend, but we'll split the cost on the supplies.
i've painted enough walls to know that i HATE painting so if he's willing to do it, so be it.
he knows i plan to move a week from this saturday. he told me that living on his own hadn't accomplished what he'd hoped it had (which was to get some physical space between us so he could focus on his new job, which he hasn't been able to do), so...even if he'd asked me to move in with him, i think i'd still need to do at least 2-3 months in my own place while we moved forward. but that's a big if.
i really hope he finds a good IC. i know how much damage the wrong one can do.
Why do you think you need the time? Is it to make sure he is sure? If so, you might want to think about letting him know if he does ask.
Great to hear you didn't have to paint - I love painting for the first 20 minutes...
i hate everything about painting. and considering the fact that i've moved about 10 times in the last 10 years, i've done my fair share and i take NO thrill out of doing it. i've had to do paint jobs on my own before, so i know i CAN do it. i just don't WANT to.
maybe i should ask, but i feel like because all of this is more or less his decision, that i would be pursuing if i asked about moving in with him if he wasn't at a point where he could tell me he wanted to work things out.
i guess i need the time to give us both a little room to recover. we split for about a month once before and when we reconciled, we jumped right back into the way things had been. this was before i'd ever read DR, so i had no idea what "piecing" was or how on earth i should function in this newly mended relationship - except to make the same mistakes i'd made before. but yes, i would like to know he is serious. again, i'm not at that point. i think he has a lot of soul searching to do, and i think he's too confused on what he wants right now to make a clear commitment. and i can't and won't settle for anything less.
trytryagain- wow, let me know how you deal with the ups and downs like that. My H came back a few times like that and it was so hard. So true what you said about trying to stay strong but wanting just to curl up in his arms..
And so damn tiring to always have to think about things.. I miss when I could just act on feelings (like a kiss when he left) and not have to over-analyze or counter in a way every action he takes.
And I'm in this blizzard craziness too. Still kind of in disbelief that he hasn't even reached out to check on the house but agree with what someone said above at how nuts you can go without being able to visit friends, get out,etc.. Thankfully shoveling and the dogs have kept me busy and outside.. and yes, wine is definitely a key part.
Hang in there and share any helpful tips!
it's confusing for sure! haven't heard a word from him today...and yesterday he treks through a blizzard to see me! all i can control is what i do in response, so i'm trying not to sit by my phone and go out and get a life...although, as many have said, it's really hard when i'm snowed in and transportation is a nightmare!
i know what you mean about always having to think about things, like, what did he mean when he said that, what did it mean when he did this??? it's very tiring and i guess at some point (probably the point at which you just let go) you just have to stop over analyzing everything.
i did talk to a great new life coach on the phone today...not quite a DB coach, but after 3 sessions, i couldn't really afford more and this person is much more affordable for me, so that's the route i'm going. it helps me keep my head on straight and it's also really nice to have a completely objective person to talk to.
also, in terms of some legal advise for those of you in the know...
my parents suggested i talk to a friend of theirs who is a family lawyer. i haven't spoken to her yet, but my mom said that her friend (the lawyer) said that i should be the one to initiate any separation agreement. now, like i said, i haven't spoken to her yet so i don't know why that would be, but it seems like most of the posts on here have said that unless you're ready to throw in the towel, or you're trying to send your spouse a wake up call, that you shouldn't be doing or filing anything to help separation or divorce along. i guess i need to talk to their friend first and hear first hand what she has to say, but...
thoughts?
my H moved out 2 weeks ago. we verbally agreed on who would get what (we don't have much), but he hasn't asked me to sign any legal separation agreement. he seems to be wavering on what he wants to do right now anyway (regarding working on the M or not working on the M), so i feel like if i pressed him to sign papers, it would push him to not want to work on the M. but...i also want to protect myself.
i should be the one to initiate any separation agreement.
Do you remember how you felt when you thought the separation agreement was in the works? Do you think it will help you meet your goals by doing that to him? He might deserve it, but will it help?
I began D mediation in Nov., but we only met the mediator once. After that, we both decided to cool things down until we were more sure. I thought it would help her see that I was serious about moving together or moving on. It did. It didn't help much, but it did help.
Your H has already moved away, but then come back through the blizzard to profess his care for you. That isn't a promise, but it is hope. What would a separation agreement, or even talking about meeting a lawyer, mean to him? What would it mean to you? It never hurts to get advice, but some actions can't be undone. Reading your posts, but not being in your shoes, I feel that he is beginning to see a future with you again. Do you think that is correct? If so, and you want that future with him, perhaps set boundaries where needed - a lawyer isn't needed for that.
I'm starting to realize how my own past has added to my ADHD insecurities. When my W began talking about 'please move away for a month, but I might not want you when you return', I noticed real resentment. Does she want me or not? Is she helping me understand myself and giving me space to figure out my confusions or not? Do you think your H is insecure? If so, was he always this way?
Remember, you believed your mom is part of the problem - you might want to ignore her advice. She doesn't seem to like your H, maybe you shouldn't either (I don't know), but you seem to love him deeply.
Regardless of what you decide, make sure you make this decision to better your understanding of yourself and toward meeting your goals.
I would suggest you simply TALK to the attny and find out the details. Unfortunately you have to look out for ONLY YOU in this sitch. If there is a legal strategy to help you, you need to know about it and employ it if necessary. Worrying about whether or not this will change H's mind is NOT something that should factor in.
REMEMBER - Believe NOTHING they say and HALF of what they do.
I know it was nice that H stopped by - and it gave you a GREAT opportunity to show the fabulous DBing you.. but I wouldn't say its hope. It could just be loneliness or guilt.... you have NO WAY of knowing.
I think you KNOW all of this... but just in case
Seperation agreements are NOT a D and can be reversed. Filing for D is NOT completing it and can be reversed. There isn't any ONE THING you will do to sway him one way or the other. But doing what is best for you will breed respect and THATS something you can rebuild on....
(((TTA)))
T
i think that the fact that my H is wavering and is unsure of what he wants right now, shows that, at the very least, he hasn't yet closed the door on our M. i certainly don't want to push him to one side of the fence right now if he's in a place mentally where he may be willing to do the work to save our M, which is what i think would happen if i handed him a legal agreement to sign.
i get what you are saying about ignoring my mom's advice, and i think that their main concern is that i get some advice and know what my options are. i don't really WANT to ask him to sign anything, but my parents are all over me to "protect myself" from getting financially screwed. but i do think that, like you said, me pushing for him to sign something would not really be giving him the space he needs, it would be saying, you want out, you get out. i don't know if i think he's insecure but i do think he probably feels inadequate to make me happy and fill my needs. my DB coach said maybe it's a case that he feels he can make everyone happy BUT me, since he's so charming and captivating...so i can see howo that would lead to insecurity.
my new life coach said that once i decide i want to work things out, i have to stop thinking in terms of "if he decides to leave." i thought i wouldn't hear from him all day yesterday, and just as i was about to stop thinking about it i got a text from him saying thanks again for talking to him the day before, that he'd finally been able to sleep and that maybe we could talk again on the weekend.
my goal is making my M work. i think in order to get there, i'm going to have to do a LOT of ignoring my mother's advice. in her eyes, people who love each other and are committed to their marriages do NOT move out into separate apartments, or say that they are unsure that they want to be married.
my H is not a bad person. he's hurt me and i've hurt him, but i don't feel that we couldn't use this experience as a chance to grow together towards a better, stronger M.
I guess your words must have a very soothing affect on him if you could destress him to sleep. YOU ARE AMAZING! Don't forget it.
Like I am doing to my W, he has hurt you. I will always feel bad about putting her through this, even if it turns out to make us a wonderful M. I really don't know him more than what you've said, but having boundaries are important. Pushing toward a D when he's only been gone a few weeks, I'm not so sure. It is very kind of you to try seeing both sides of the coin as he may not be able to.
Are you excited to the prospect of talking to him this weekend, or are you nervous?
i don't want to push for a D at all...and i haven't even spoken to the family friend/lawyer yet. and i'm not in a hurry to. i know my H feels badly about putting us both through this because he's had an equally hard time and has been hurting a lot, too. talia, i know you said it's good that he stopped by, but that maybe it was out of guilt or loneliness, which could certainly be true. but for him to stop by when there was literally so much snow blowing around you couldn't see 3 feet in front of you...i don't know, i think that's a little more than loneliness. again i'm not trying to mind read, but if i was lonely and had the option to trek through a blizzard or stay on my couch and read a book...i'd most likely pick the book.
OTM, if i see him again this weekend, i would be anxious in that nervous/excited/hesitant kind of way. i don't want to NOT talk to him or NOT see him...
he also said last night he was thinking a lot about faith, which is something he's never expressed interest in before. he gave me "have a little faith" by the author of tuesdays with morrie, which i started last night and i know he already read (well, it's an audio book, so i know he listened to it on a long car trip home over christmas). just to hear him say that word, faith, definitely has my ears perked up.
Whatever you're doing, sounds like DB in action~keep it up TTA!
Don't forget to keep working on yourself though - a hope proved fales is sometimes worse than no hope at all, I think. For you and your M, make the "new and improved" be deep down to the core ingredients. Then, pass on the recipie to us!!
i'm definitely moving forward with working on myself. last night i tried my first acro-yoga class which was the BIGGEST exercise in blind trust i've ever participated in. after that class, i was practically radiating happiness, i haven't felt that good in a long time! stopped in an art museum today just to say hello to some of my favorite works and even got myself some new clothes (all on sale!). plan to hit the gym later today and do a BIG 180 for me by going to a party in my building and socializing with my neighbors.
haven't heard from my H today at all, but he did text last night just to say hello. i told my sister last night, i LIKE the new and improved me and i'm feeling really good about myself and my outlook on life. even though i miss my H and our life together, i'm learning to use this as a time to grow and learn more about myself.
still haven't talked to the L who is friends of my parents. think i'll "forget" to follow up with her for now.
so i got another text from my H today (he makes it very hard to go dark!), asking if i wanted to meet for lunch or coffee tomorrow or monday. i answered that i have plans for lunch tomorrow but could meet for a drink tomorrow night or after work on monday. i'm not really sure what he wants to talk about but...i'm anxious to see him again. should i take it as a good sign that he wants to meet up? i have no reason to believe he wants to ask me to sign anything or have any sort of talk about D. i don't want to be overly optimistic either, though.
i guess i'll just let him see how i've been doing since he moved out 2 weeks ago. and i'm sure a cute dress wouldn't hurt, either.
had a really nice time with my H tonight. we met for a drink and talked for a while like we were just on a date, nothing really about our R until a bit later in the night. it felt good to see him and talk to him again. he got choked up a few times, said he was sorry for some things, and i did, too. he also kissed me. he said he's still not mentally in the place where i am, but we're definitely not talking D right now and he cried when he told me how much he missed me.
he asked me at the end of the night if i wanted to meet for coffee or dinner later this week, which i said i'd have to see what my schedule looked like but that i'd love to. so. i know i am no where near out of the woods, but...i feel good. i enjoyed being with him, we laughed and just sitting across the table from him at one of our favorite restaurants just felt better than i've felt in a while. i know he can see the changes i'm making, and i know how much i can feel them!
don't know what will happen from here, but i have a sense of hope that i haven't really had in a while.
but we're definitely not talking D right now
Did he say this, or imply it?
Either way - point scored! It sounds like you can genuinely see you improving yourself, too. Point number two!
trytry, how encouraging! I guess this is the tricky part where you have to put the brakes on things and not jump into anything too quickly. Keep DBing!
my goal is making my M work. i think in order to get there, i'm going to have to do a LOT of ignoring my mother's advice. in her eyes, people who love each other and are committed to their marriages do NOT move out into separate apartments, or say that they are unsure that they want to be married.
TTA - My mother and sister feel the exact same way. For a long time I never sought the advice of my family, only a very close friend. But when it got so bad, I disclosed my issues in my marriage to my Mother in November 2009. My H left on Christmas Eve 2009. My mother subscribes to the same belief as your mother. It is hard when my mother tells me.. "he is not coming back and I should just forget about things getting better because he would not have left if he REALLY loved you". She believes i have false hope and I tell you, I have succumbed at times to her words. Don't fall into that trap - keep your eyes on your goals (not our mother's).
I am trying to keep the faith. You continue to do the same, I am pulling for you.
but we're definitely not talking D right now
Did he say this, or imply it?
we did not talk about D, or really even being separated at all. he talked about how much he misses me and how he wants to get to a better place mentally before making any big decisions. but this is what DB is all about, right? just slowing down the talk and the idea of moving towards D?
It is hard when my mother tells me.. "he is not coming back and I should just forget about things getting better because he would not have left if he REALLY loved you". She believes i have false hope and I tell you, I have succumbed at times to her words. Don't fall into that trap - keep your eyes on your goals (not our mother's).
DU - thank you SO MUCH for the encouragement. sometimes i feel so silly even talking about my mom on this site. i am a married, grown woman, and my focus should be on my M, not on my R with my mom! i know she only wants what is best for me, and anyone who hurts me hurts her tenfold, but i am working really hard on setting boundaries with her. i need her encouragement and her support, not her negative attitudes towards my H. i told her on the phone recently that just because i don't react to my H the way she wants me to (which is the way she is reacting: vengefully, angrily and resentfully) doesn't mean i'm not hurting. i just hurt in a different way than she does. when she told me she will NEVER trust my H again or welcome him back to our family, i took a deep breath, cut her off in the middle of her rant and said, mom, you know i love you and appreciate you being there for me. but it really hurts me that you would say that about my H because it makes me feel like you've closed the door on my M and i am certainly not at that point. just because i'm not trying to stick it to him in every way possible doesn't mean i'm not sad, confused and upset. i'm dealing with this the best way that i know how to, and i need to know that if my H and i were to reconcile, it wouldn't drive a wedge between our family because you no longer welcome him. i know you don't want me to hurt right now, but that's just not an option, so if you can't be supportive, i would rather just not talk about this at all.
you know what her response was? an APOLOGY. a genuine, heartfelt apology. i wish i could have seen my face. it felt GOOD to set that boundary! i should have been doing this years ago!
That really makes things better when they put their own needs or desires for you aside and respects your wishes. I am in the same boat, and have had to draw the same line. It does hurt though b/c if you want to share your feelings or pain w/ your parents, they immediately go into protective mode and try to get the solution they think is best into your head.
I'm glad you were able to establish that boundary w/ your mom.
TTA - No problem. I understand completely. We must stay focused on our goals to reconcile with our spouses (if possible) regardless of what our parents want us to do. As I am learning from the advice here in this forum, only we can chose what is right for us. Just like others say - we cannot control what our spouses say or do, neither should we allow our parents to do the same to us.
They care and they love us, but I know for me, I have to take a step back and just say thanks, but I can decide for myself.
You keep hanging in there.
so, my H emailed today and said he has an appt with an IC on Wednesday. i think it's a good sign that he's willing to admit he needs to talk to someone - especially without me suggesting it. he said his mother has insisted that he should be seeing someone, but at least he hasn't felt that pressure from me.
he also asked me if we could meet up again this week. i said i had plans for the next 2 days but that Thursday was a possibility. any suggestions on where we could meet/what we could do? i don't want to suggest anything too "date-like" but would like to have a couple of thoughts to throw his way on where we could meet.
Exciting!
I guess while you are GAL, you probably don't want to forget the situation you are in now to avoid overdoing it/pursuing, but I'd guess you are feeling a lot better these days. I hope many of the good feelings you have you can remember are because of your hard work trying to understand him and you, and then making very hard choices.
Ideas...
- low pressure, something new instead of something full of memories (excite vs remind)
- physical enough to get the good brain juices flowing, but relaxed enough to get in conversation that isn't all about R
- avoid getting drunk situation (alcohol is technically a depressant) or places that would make a single life seem care free and fun
Places...
- bowling? - games night at your/his house?
Added idea - ask him if he found anything fun in the last month alone.
180 time? What happened in the past when you went out? Who decided? Did he always like your suggestions, or does he like being the "man" and deciding? What are your limits?
well, we tend to go to the same restaurants and bars, both of us dropping the "whatever you feel like" line. i think the biggest 180 in this situation would be for me to say something like, you know, i've been wanting to go ice skating this season, and i know you're so much better at it than i am, so maybe you could take me when we meet up.
i think i'll suggest ice skating and then dessert. both things we've never done together before.
usually for weekend outings i would suggest a museum, which he would not be all that thrilled with, so i think an activity we can do together like ice skating would be interesting to him. and me, since i've only done it about 3 times in my life!
thanks for the suggestions, OTM!
You're welcome. Now, if I could just do it for myself!
i've been following your thread, OTM...you're getting some helpful suggestions!
seems like you're struggling with whether or not you WANT to do it for yourself. there's a lot of back and forth on your thread. my coach told me recently that i needed to decided what it was i wanted out of my M, and then proceed full steam ahead with that plan. for instance, if my goal was to make my M work, i had to close off all exit doors in my mind and erase the "if we don't work things out" thoughts. but if my goal were to end my M, i'm sure her suggestion would be to pursue the necessary things to make that happen. if you want to make it work, make it work. if you don't, then...don't. but all the back and forth and yes no maybe i'm not sure takes a big toll on both you and your W. not to mention your children.
are you considering what your life would be like without her?
Life without her - R wise, might be better. With kids though...that is where the back and forth comes from. I began thinking she didn't want the M, then finding out she did I no longer did (had been repressing desire for D for 11yrs). But with 5 kids...I worry for them, worry she couldn't handle it, worry she'd do things that weren't in the kids best interest because of her fears/anger/spite. The last 3 words sum up my biggest problems finding love with her, added to cultural disconnects. Thanks though for the advice from your coach - I'll try yet another list, but this time about what I want now rather than the R. I'm trying not to talk the 'what ifs', but she manages to ask specific questions a lot (do you love me, etc.)
I'm just realizing that I'm on your thread~sorry...
One think I think I can relate to with your H is the fear of getting more bound into a M that seems doomed. It is SO good to hear that he is discovering that your M deserves a more open mind a lot more work.
no worries, OTM. i do want to ask, though...if you had no children or if they were all grown or at least older - would you hesitate to leave the M? you've said that you questioned the M from the start, so i'm just curious.
i do agree that my H seems to be feeling less like our M is doomed. at dinner the other night he told me that he doesn't understand this "demon" that drives him to only see the negative, and that assures him that the only thing to do is leave. hopefully his new counselor can help him work through some of these things. it just really confuses me to hear him so adamantly insist for a month that this is what is best for us (separation) and then, 2 weeks after he moves out and is living on his own, he's calling, emailing, wanting to see me, questioning his decision.
i don't want to be too optimistic if this is all just a reaction to him being lonely, living alone and just missing life with his wife. i guess i just don't know what's real emotion and what's just his reaction to all of this.
i don't want to be too optimistic if this is all just a reaction to him being lonely, living alone and just missing life with his wife. i guess i just don't know what's real emotion and what's just his reaction to all of this.
It may be just a reaction, but it doesn't seem to be. Like you said, a 15k walk in the snow is desire, not just desparation.
I (and perhaps he) am trying to separate the idea of I love being married from I love you. Then looking back to see if it is the fear of being lonely, or the fear of missing someone I love that is driving me.
To answer your question, if the kids were adults today, I do not believe I would stay married to her, but I'm not big on loneliness till death. I'm sure that part of my stitch now is that I don't want to stay married, only to get the big D in 20yrs when I might be too old to be looking around. I'm definately trying again because I have kids. I had a glimmer of feelings for her this weekend that seem deeper though, so, if she doesn't kick me away because she hates being confused, I might be finding feelings I never had for her.
well, i'm trying not to read too much into it. we are still in contact in some form pretty much every day. he did tell me he loved me when we had dinner Sunday, and i don't doubt that he does, i just don't know that he feels that is enough.
OTM, as someone with ADHD, have you often found yourself making up your mind one way, only to regret a decision and try and reverse it a few days/weeks/months later? my mom is convinced that this is just the way my H operates and that no matter what, he will continue to "flee" from our M over and over again. considering that my H has tried to break things off with me several times before, should i expect this to happen again and again? obviously, you have never met him and every person is different, but it's been difficult for him to break free of the cycle...have you ever found yourself in the same situation over and over again?
HI TTA,
One quick thought.... Please slow down. Keep doing what you are doing - because its great. Let H answer those why questions himself, with his therapist. I'm not sure that asking those questions here will get you the right answers - or even remotely helpful answers.
You stay the course - its clearly working!!! Let H deal with his demons and don't spend another min thinking about them.
What are you doing this week for you???
T
TTA, I totally agree with Talia.
What you're doing is getting a good response. Do not stop now in reaction to whatever H is doing at this moment. You stay on a path that is good for you.
No one else can tell you what H is going through, he doesn't even know himself! Mind reading will only drive you crazy and serves no good purpose.
thanks, talia and pearl. i'm not really trying to mind read, just asking if a cycle can be broken. i'm staying on the path that is working for me, but like i said earlier, i just can't tell if my H's reaching out to me has been out of loneliness or if he's considering reconciliation. i know i could drive myself insane trying to guess which one it is, but again, this is all part of a cycle with him. hopefully he'll benefit from IC, which he's starting again this week, and i know talking to a coach has been extremely helpful for me.
i guess i'm just thinking out loud here...if it's true this is a cylce that will only continue to repeat itself, how much of myself do i want to invest in this R? not that i'm backtracking now, i DO want to be with my H, but this is the third time we've gone through this. maybe my mom is right. maybe my H will do this over and over and every time i'll talk myself into thinking that it's the last time.
just having some sticky feelings today. i wouldn't be here if i didn't want my M to work, but i am also dealing with a lot of fear of this happening again and again. and i know it would be much worse later on if we had a family and a home, etc.
i will keep doing what i'm doing, though. as for what i have on my plate for ME this week, lots of yoga, running, meditating, journaling, time with friends, walks with my dog, and some time at church and of course, reading. i know he sees that i'm doing ok. i know he knows i see that he is not.
thanks, as always, for your thoughts!
i guess i'm just thinking out loud here...if it's true this is a cylce that will only continue to repeat itself, how much of myself do i want to invest in this R?
That is the million dollar question that only you can answer. The difference this time (correct me if I'm wrong) is that H is talking to IC to sort himself out. You'll have to wait and watch that process. He will have to prove through his actions over time that things can and will be different moving forward. Until then, take care of yourself so you will be great no matter what happens. Perhaps talking to an IC yourself can help you work through these valid concerns.
should i expect this to happen again and again? obviously, you have never met him and every person is different, but it's been difficult for him to break free of the cycle...have you ever found yourself in the same situation over and over again?
Yup. Now things that I love, I commit to and I think commit quite well. From what I've read, I would infer that the part of ADHD that affects committment is the fear of failure. When you've failed a lot, do you keep going down the road that is very rewarding, but also filled with failures, too?
My guess is that if you get a good understanding of how he reacts to R stressors that are controllable, without breaking your boundaries, and expect fallout or avoid it, he'll feel less failure and then be more committed. On the other hand, maybe when he's networking alone, he's thinking 'why am I alone' and that triggers him. His IC will need to figure that one out. Perhaps, God willing, you will get back together knowing things are tentative. Maybe you can ask him to explore his dissatisfactions with his IC, but I'd be afraid that would be rocking the boat.
For me, part of my distress with my W is that she can't handle uncertainty. She hates that me/my sister (etc) accept having flexible fun schedules, leave later/earlier/whatever. She likes a solid footing. If you need things very fixed in your life with your R, you already know that isn't likely.
I hate marking. I want to do it, I believe it is very, very important. Yet, once again, I have a stack that is beyond unmanagable. Yes, I'm going through a very rocky time, but I haven't quite learned. Will I quit over it and find a new career? I don't think so, but I've thought about it out loud. My W needs to know I need her then to support me, not tell me to quit....so yes, I repeat mistakes. Don't we all? Diff is in the why & how much, not the what.
I'm not sure if I answered your question well...ask again if it wasn't.
i guess i'm just thinking out loud here...if it's true this is a cylce that will only continue to repeat itself, how much of myself do i want to invest in this R?
The difference this time (correct me if I'm wrong) is that H is talking to IC to sort himself out. You'll have to wait and watch that process. He will have to prove through his actions over time that things can and will be different moving forward.
when he wanted to separate back in 2008, he started seeing a counselor. i watched and waited. he proved through his actions that things would be different. and now i'm in this place again. he's seeing a new IC this week, and i think he's going into it with a different mind set, but again...how much waiting and watching and proving do you put up with? i know it's a question that only i can answer...but when your friends and your family are saying, he's only going to do it again - it's kind of hard not to think, hmmm....maybe they are right.
TTA, I hear you. On one hand, you want your M to work and you've seen the change so you want to believe this time will be different. OTOH, if all of your family and friends are in agreement you don't want to be the person who ignored all of the warnings and wind up in the same place yet again but with the feeling that you've wasted valuable time.
I'm in the same place. And it sucks. The lack of clarity is a killer. I wish I could offer you some advice on how to figure it out but that's why I'm seeing an IC myself! And not getting anywhere either. So if you do find a good decision-making process, PLEASE let me know!
If you need things very fixed in your life with your R, you already know that isn't likely.
i'm probably a middle of the road kind of person. i do like routine and certainty, but if the boat gets rocked i'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it. he does tend to flip the script pretty regularly, but it's one of the things i like about him...he's never boring or predictable!
it is hard, though, in terms of liking things a certain way. but even in that sense, i've learned to be more flexible and not freak out when things aren't just the way i like them.
i guess i'm just thinking out loud here...if it's true this is a cylce that will only continue to repeat itself, how much of myself do i want to invest in this R?
Do you think YOU are the same person? Are you approaching the R the same way? I am not trying to overdo a compliment, but I really think that if my W was doing what you have said that you are doing/trying to do, I'd be much less likely to be unhappy.
Your H might have VERY different feelings, but I'd add to my last response by saying this...in my 11 yr marriage, I thought about D a lot - monthly or more. Did I ever tell her before this last year? Only once, we talked about it. The fact of the matter is the kids have provided for me enough of a reason to hope/work this far. It isn't enough forever, I think. How many men D in the first 2-3 yrs. A US stat document on D points that most D are in the first 5 yrs. Despite ADHD and huge failures that have put my deepest values in question, I got that far.
Can your H? Only time will tell. But one thing we know about DB is that many premises change a lot about our M dynamics. Maybe this is one area that you don't need to explore now. IF/When you get together and you give it enough time (1yr?) and he's still talking D, then maybe you can give up.
But not now. You've gotten so far.
OTOH, if all of your family and friends are in agreement you don't want to be the person who ignored all of the warnings and wind up in the same place yet again but with the feeling that you've wasted valuable time.
thanks, pearl. i think i also worry what my family/friends would think. would they think i'm an idiot, i deserve better, i have to know this is going to happen again? how can i bring my H back to my parent's house for holidays or just to hang out when i'm secretly thinking, they must think i am a fool. i know it's a dumb thing to worry about, because i can't control what other people say or think and i shouldn't even really care that much when it comes to my life. but these are people i love and respect and i just have visions of them looking at each other the second i leave the room and saying, have you ever seen such a messed up marriage in all your life, why doesn't she just tell him to hit the road?
you're right. it does suck.
i guess i'm just thinking out loud here...if it's true this is a cylce that will only continue to repeat itself, how much of myself do i want to invest in this R?
Do you think YOU are the same person? Are you approaching the R the same way? I am not trying to overdo a compliment, but I really think that if my W was doing what you have said that you are doing/trying to do, I'd be much less likely to be unhappy.
i don't feel like the same person. all the reading i've done has really altered my perspective of relationships and marriage in general, in a good way. i feel like i have a totally new understanding of how my actions and my reactions affect my H and ultimately, our M. he pointed out a lot of things about me that are not things i am proud of. i do not want to be that way and i've chosen to change my ways. i'm working to make the changes stick. i do appreciate the compliment, it has taken a lot of work and a lot of soul searching on my part to get me to this point. it's been over a month since he first mentioned separating and i have to say, i'm definitely in a better place than he is.
how can i bring my H back to my parent's house for holidays or just to hang out when i'm secretly thinking, they must think i am a fool.
Now that I've talked about the D with some friends and family, I feel very awkward thinking about saying, "ya, we were about to D twice in 6 months, but we've worked it out and now I think we'll be happy forever". Forget awkward - stupid, naive, mean, controlling, guilty...lots of bad feelings.
The only thing comforting is that 3 different couples have said they were shocked we were talking D, because they thought we were such a good match. (ADHD creativity...I know how to fake a feeling when networking!)
Would I rather go and say I D? To them, yes. To others I'll meet in the future, colleagues, etc, no. To them, without explaining the whole story, I'm sure they'll think that either I or she was messed up. What a drag to feel! I don't want to blame anyone, but inside me I think our problem is more her "fault". That doesn't change the feeling of failure to success.
i think i also worry what my family/friends would think. would they think i'm an idiot, i deserve better, i have to know this is going to happen again? how can i bring my H back to my parent's house for holidays or just to hang out when i'm secretly thinking, they must think i am a fool.
Yep, I worry some about what my friends think. Mostly I worry that if I do decide to leave eventually that they will not be as supportive as they were the last time
because I tried to make it work. I worry that I will face "I told you so" from a lot of people. I mentioned that to a few of my closest friends. They assured me that they want what is best for me and will be supportive of any decision I make. But I do know that at least one thinks I should dump him immediately and start over because he said I didn't seem happy when we met for lunch last month. Sigh.
Ultimately your family and friends love you and will support you. We all make the best decisions we can at the time and have to go from there.
thanks, pearl! nothing is worse than "i told you so!" most of my friends assure me of the same thing, but i still find myself attempting to justify to my friends and even my family why i would WANT to work things out, especially when i feel like we go through this breakup thing every 12-18 months.
i also know that i understand our R and my H better than any of my friends or family, and that only the 2 people in a R can truly know all of what is going on...but it doesn't make it any easier to tell friends, "yup, we're going to try to work things out. AGAIN."
my H tells me his family is also questioning why he is in contact with me. not that they don't like me or anything like that. and my mom asks me on a daily basis if anything has changed. i told my sister we'd had dinner on sunday and she said, so are you back together? sigh.
no one can understand this kind of stuff except for other people going through the same thing.
no one can understand this kind of stuff except for other people going through the same thing.
Amen!
I agree with you & Pearl about the concern over friends/family's opinions. Ultimately, I guess you decide who you're living your life for. Or at least that's where
I am right now. If my M ends in D, I want the satisfaction of knowing that I tried, even though it was tremendously difficult and flew in the face of so many 'told you so'.
he pointed out a lot of things about me that are not things i am proud of. i do not want to be that way and i've chosen to change my ways.
And that is what makes
AGAIN. into
AGAIN!Hopefully, he is recognizing (or will recognize with IC) some of the things you pointed out, too. If he doesn't, you still have learned how to push his 'good buttons' to get changes you want over time.
Are you ready to accept that he'll backslide much more than you? I know to never insult my W. But regardless of why, I still did. I accept that if I can't pay attention to something in the heat of an argument, I will redo mistakes. I might say something that sounds like I want to leave my R. But, it will be a mistake, not on purpose. If you (and my W) can accept that my intention might be much better than the action, accepting a backslide becomes easier. It also prevents a big or small problem spiraling into massive.
You are not really doing anything again. You are doing it
differently, and much better from the sounds of it.
he told me that he doesn't understand this "demon" that drives him to only see the negative
I find it hard to be positive about my S (you may have noticed...), but then I have to force myself to be positive in many areas that others would naturally click to. I can't say for sure for your H TTA, but for me, I'm so used to hearing how I did something amazing, but I missed a/b/c, that I've grown up seeing what was missing. I think if teachers knew I had ADHD, they'd back off. Because they didn't they expected equal or more...one good reason not to diagnose unless there are serious problems with quality of life.
I'd worry little about this...he can learn about this through his IC. The only thing to do is pray that he's got an excellent IC who is aware of DB, not divorce making.
trust me, OTM, i'm definitely praying he's found a good IC. i've told him already how i feel that MC for us hurt more than helped - not because our counselor pushed us to separate, but because we spent more time looking at what we'd done wrong than dealing with how to fix things and move on. so. fingers crossed, for sure!
TTA,
There's one thing that I have tried to stick to in this whole situation...
Discretion is the Better part of Valor
It essentially means that in situations where you don't have enough information it is better sit back, do nothing, and see what happens than it is to do the wrong thing with the wrong information...
Just remember this time with your H is different because YOU are different. Just keep doing what you are doing - its working!!! H will deal with his demons or not - and you won't know which for a little while yet.
(((TTA)))
T
i am doing my best to keep doing what i'm doing. i know i've been getting positive results and my H's first session with his new IC is today...but i'm just sad today. i cried last night because i just miss him so much. he said on sunday that he wanted to see me again this week, but i told him i had plans until thursday. we haven't decided to do anything yet and i haven't heard from him at all today. funny how your mind plays games with you, because now i'm thinking, he hasn't emailed today, maybe he changed his mind about wanting to see you. probably not true, but still...an over-active imagination can do you in sometimes.
got a call back from my mom's lawyer friend...not sure i want to return her message.
Get busy TTA! Do something that will take your mind off everything. Immerse yourself in a movie or go out with girlfriends who will talk your ear off about their lives.
Remember that this process is about YOU, not H.
Talk to the lawyer. It doesn't mean you have to do anything. But a smart woman will be prepared for anything and knowledge is power.
that's good advice, pearl. i know it doesn't mean anything to talk to her, and it certainly couldn't hurt me to at least understand the legal side of things. just in case.
i do have plans tonight, i have a meeting at my church. i'm going on a service trip to new orleans next month - by myself, no one i know already is going! - and have an orientation meeting for that tonight. should be interesting.
i know the process is about me. that doesn't stop me from missing my H. i've spent more time with my girlfriends in the last 3 weeks than i have in the last 3 years. i still feel lonely. i keep myself busy and i feel good and can see improvements in my overall mood. but that doesn't stop me from being sad from time to time or hoping that he'll call or write or reach out to me.
Of course you're going to have those feelings. But the longer you dwell on them the more they take over.
The trip is a great idea. You'll be doing something good and sharing that experience with new people. At the end you'll have some new friends who are all your own.
I hope you reach the point where you realize that you will be fine no matter what happens.
i've already realized that i'll be fine no matter what. i haven't reached the point where i'm not sad about it or miss my H.
i try not to dwell on my feelings for too long...but sometimes it's harder than other times.
TTA, imagine that he asked you if you called. You'd say yes. He'd say why or wonder why.
Even if you did end off with a D, don't you have a 1/2 year or longer to wait first from Jan? I just don't see the rush unless you are making decisions. You don't have children to worry about, you don't have tons of property, he is being a gentleman and it sounds like you are too. What is the point of the laywer now? If my W said she went, I'd be worried and want to go, too, but I have 5 kids and a huge mortgage with a wife that doesn't drive or work. Financially and emotionally, I could be in a real jam.
Your situtation on these boards is unique - you are changing, there isn't an affair, he's shown remorse and gone to counselling, and more...all withing a very short time.
Would that help you meet YOUR goals?
Just jumping in here...you got the last big bad news just last month. OF COURSE you're still sad and missing H and all the rest.
Everyone keeps telling me it takes time, and it looks like you haven't had a lot of time to deal with this yet.
We just keep on keeping on, right?
keep on keeping on, i guess that's what i'm doing my best to do. hadn't heard from my H all day and got an email at 10pm. started out asking me about work, then telling me he has to go to some work related event tomorrow, then ended by saying he'd seen his new counselor tonight, that he liked her and she'd asked a lot of questions and he was looking forward to seeing her again next week. then he said maybe we could meet up on saturday.
i know you all tell me not to read into everything, but when i saw him sunday he asked to see me again this week and was pretty highly emotional throughout the night. this email, while nice, seemed like he was in a different frame of mind. he didn't express any of the urgency to see me that he'd expressed on sunday, and i guess he totally forgot i'm moving to another apartment on saturday, so i can't and don't really feel like meeting up with him on the day i have to move out of my apartment because he wanted to separate.
i want to sound encouraging about his new counselor, but i'm not sure how to feel when it feels like he may have cooled off a bit. i also was looking forward to seeing him tomorrow but now i guess i won't, which i'm kind of bummed about. still. it was nice of him to even tell me how his session went, i guess, and he did start his email out my asking about me.
on another note, i had a great meeting tonight about my service trip and i'm really looking forward to being home for a week (i grew up in new orleans) and doing some volunteer work, making new friends, and seeking my own happiness and fulfillment.
What would you do if it was a very good friend who forgot? Maybe act that way? I forget a lot. I tried a computer and PDA, but still, some things just don't get the attention they deserve because I'm sure I'll remember.
Maybe his counselor is saying what you are worried about - that he might not have improved his M skills enough to deal with his own issues. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but don't we need some of it if we want to work it out?
Could you split the day? Maybe he might want to help you move, and then going skating afterward if that is what you want to suggest.
I was dropping off my W for her first IC session today. The kids asked us about kissing. I joked to W that we could kiss for them and show them there's nothing bad about it. My W looked like she was getting ready for a funeral.
Well...she wasn't listening! I'm glad I didn't overreact to that!
hadn't heard from my H all day and got an email at 10pm.
Consider contact from a friend as a blessing, not as an expectation, and then if you get it you can feel great (rather than wonder why you didn't)
i see what you're saying, OTM...but i guess it's just hard to consider it a blessing when sunday he was crying about how much he misses me and today i get an email at 10pm that says "maybe" we can find some time to meet up on saturday. just seems a little hot and cold to me.
i'll respond as i would to a friend, and not say anything mean about him forgetting my move. i don't see him wanting to help me move, and i don't really want him to, anyway.
You mentioned the drugs/alcohol thing. Is it possible his moodiness could be a side-effect?
I wanted to add that when I meant blessing, I didn't mean him persay, I meant that expecting him to call in the situation you're in still might be setting yourself up to getting crushed emotions.
TTA,
Dropping the rope means NO EXPECTATIONS. There is always pull back from a WAS when something good happens - this is a great example. You CANNOT expect anything from H and clearly you are/did. Believe nothing they say and half of what they do. He SAID he wanted to see you - so BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY.
No expectations means you are cool to spend time IF it works for you and he asks; but if he dosen't ask - OH WELL! If you are going to make it through the long hall of this you NEED to start doing this for yourself. Just look at it this way - these could be the last moments you will spend with H so you are going to enjoy them as they come and be happy with that.
We've been telling you - at least most of us have been telling you - to STOP mind reading. You CANNOT read into emails - they are inherantly without emotion. STOP STOP STOP. You will make yourself crazy doing that. Please don't listen to people on here who keep telling you to think about what H is thinking or feeling. YOU DON'T KNOW and you can't possibly know. There is no magic formula for reading into things and coming up with whats going on in his head.
This has all been so fast for you and you are light years ahead of most of us at this point in our situations. I'm super proud of you for EVERYTHING you are doing. You have no idea how long it took me to get to where you are. You SHOULD still miss H - you spent the last few years with him as your main companion. Its OK to feel sad about this - you will for a while. Just don't let those feelings get into your head.
(((TTA)))
t
thank you, talia. i know i am trying to mind read or interpret his emails and that i need to stop. but at the same time, if i'm not supposed to believe things he is saying, should i also not believe it when he says he loves me or he misses me? and what if he is TELLING me how he feels, do i not believe that, either?
i know there is no magic formula for any of this, but if he says he loves me and i move forward thinking, ok, he loves me, but i'm still going to keep doing what i've been doing - am i operating under false pretenses because i shouldn't believe that he loves me?
if i'm not supposed to believe things he is saying, should i also not believe it when he says he loves me or he misses me?
Yes, that's exactly right. If he loves you then he will show it through his actions over time. You only believe it when you see it consistently.
Example from my life: BF said he wanted another chance to work on us. Not good enough. He sent emails, left letters at the house. After about a month of this I told him I would only think about discussing anything with him if he ended all contact with OW. He says he has done this. I show up unannounced at his bowling night and walk in on him standing next to OW. Lesson learned.
Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.Keep doing what works and stop doing what doesn't work. Mind reading
doesn't work. Having expectations based on what H says
doesn't work. GAL and detachment works.
You mentioned the drugs/alcohol thing. Is it possible his moodiness could be a side-effect?
hmmmm...i don't really know, but i don't think so. he smoked every day anyway, and he drank pretty regularly anyway, so i don't know how those would be changing his mood NOW.
seems to me that his moodiness is more of a side effect of no longer knowing what he wants or what he should do, and of living alone surrounded by boxes he hasn't unpacked.
TTA,
Wise words from Pearl... Heed them!!
T
thanks, talia and pearl. i know i need to look for signs of truth in his WORDS by watching his ACTIONS. i'm thrilled that he sought the help of an IC on his own, without any pushing from me, and i'm doing my best to stand back and give him all the space he needs.
i'm giving MYSELF some space as well, and looking forward to a week long service trip to new orleans in a few weeks. told the H about my trip and he said he was excited but sad (not sure why), and that i'd always had such a big heart and desire to give back. those are definitely good points about me, and i'm trying to focus more on those good things and bring them out in myself more.
it's very hard to not come to expect anything from someone who you've vowed your life to, though, isn't it? i guess i should see his almost daily contact as a sign of something i'm doing right instead of focusing so much on what he's saying in his emails. at least he's emailing, right?
thanks for trying to help keep me on track. it can be a full time job!
i know i need to look for signs of truth in his WORDS by watching his ACTIONS.
I'd offer that it isn't the truth you might need to look for but rather a
confirmation of the truth. Michelle's book talked about saying I love you - that replying to it when you don't feel it isn't very easy. I think when he's saying he misses you and that he loves you, his crying, texting, meeting you, going to an IC, walking in the snow (etc) is the action that confirmed his love. It doesn't mean that you or he has done enough of changing what didn't work and meeting your goals to make the 50 year anniversary.
You wouldn't have gotten there in your R if you tuned him out.
He might be sad because he's feeling he misses you. If he wanted to give separation papers or something, or if he wanted more space cause you were pursuing, he wouldn't be sad, he'd be mad. That is where you've done great trying to better understand the man you want to be with in a happy M. It is also possible that he is also feeling proud of you, while being worried about your financial situation, or that you might be running away from him.
I disagree with the idea that you should not spend a bit of time understanding him. If people didn't try to understand someone's intentions and feelings, we'd have to rely on them telling us, which he (and I) are not always able to do. If we ONLY judged someone's actions, where would we get hope from?
Think of the Muslim/Christian belief in prophets like Moses. Aren't we told time and time again about what they and the "bad guys" thought, not just what they did? Yet for a spouse, we say, "prove it"?
Be cautious, don't plan on words alone, that makes a lot of sense. If there was a trust issue, be more cautious. But try to "mind read" because he's ADHD and going to forget to say something he thought you knew. Even better, do it because it is just the right thing to do when you are trying to show love. That doesn't mean ignore the facts, or jump into a situation on hope alone.
The person keeping herself on track the most is you. You ask questions. You choose your direction. You accept the benefits, and the consequences of them, too.
OTM it's funny you said the word proud. i just got a long email from my H, saying he was proud of how well i was handling things and how i was working on myself and that he was jealous that he hadn't found the strength to do the same. he also said part of his sadness came from the fact that he'd always been so proud of the volunteer work i do and he said it hurts him to be unable to support me in doing something as big as this trip i'm taking. that he wants to be there for me but he knows he's not there yet.
i know he misses me, he tells me that when i see him and he's told me in emails. he's never been mad and he's never expressed anything other than sadness, loss, and hopelessness, so i see what you're saying about how i'm taking the right steps - because if i weren't, he wouldn't be so sad and upset, he'd be angry and aloof.
he also said his new IC told him to "tread lightly" in his interactions with me. that she said it was good we were talking and that he'd seen me, but that to not get ahead of the real goal, which is to decide what he truly wants and to commit himself to it, 100%. he's taken responsibility for initiating the breakups we've endured over the last 5 years - something i never thought he would do - and said he needs to understand the cycle and his "freight train nature" which leads him to feel the need to jump ship. i don't know how i feel about his counselor telling him to take it easy...i KNOW taking it easy is the right thing to do, but i guess i'm just fearful that she may eventually say, you need to not talk to her at all.
for me the hardest part of all of this is loving him so immensely and trying to understand more about him and the way he thinks while simultaneously letting him go with both hands and not having him as my constant companion right now. i guess i just want him to know that i'm feeling the same way he's feeling. i'm also lonely and sad and i miss him every minute. i keep myself occupied and i make improvements and i do things for myself and that all feels good, but at the same time i'm also sad to see him so confused, lonely and upset - even though he essentially did this to himself. this was his decision and i know i have to let him deal with the consequences and learn and grow from them. i just hope that learning and growing doesn't extend in a direction away from our M.
but i guess everyone here wants that...
he also said his new IC told him to "tread lightly" in his interactions with me. that she said it was good we were talking and that he'd seen me, but that to not get ahead of the real goal, which is to decide what he truly wants and to commit himself to it, 100%.
My IC last night told me that from what I had told her (+she was our MC last year), my W would likely not be changing very quickly, if at all. That would mean I would need to keep making concessions, not compromises as in many areas of disagreement between W & I, W feels that movement from her POV is giving up (so she doesn't). I didn't tell my W when she asked how the IC went, but today I did. I made sure not to make it sound so bleak. I was a bit upset to hear my IC tell me that basically I shouldn't live on maybe, because I found people can do much more than expected with enough motivation. I think even if the IC is wrong, I needed to hear that.
Perhaps what your H IC is noticing is that his emotional releases seem very powerful and that a R takes some self-control.
sad to see him so confused, lonely and upset - even though he essentially did this to himself. this was his decision and i know i have to let him deal with the consequences and learn and grow from them. i just hope that learning and growing doesn't extend in a direction away from our M.
If it did, wouldn't it be better than him deciding he made a mistake 5 years a kid or two later? Look back at the part about you knowing he needs to deal with consequence. He does. We all do. It is part of being a responsible man/wife.
When I talked to my W today about the IC, I told her I would be monologing so we didn't get into a discussion about the content. I began with positive, the fact that I might be starting to feel some love. Then I said that it might be fear of the consequences, too. I could feel the pain in her as we talked that you seem to be feeling. If it matters, I think your H feels just as bad, or much worse, about the pain you are going through. Still, do you want a lifetime marriage with someone committed or enternally unsure?
wow. H just sent me a message that all he can see when he closes his eyes is his W and asked if he could call me when he got home from his work event. he did text me a few times while he was at the event, which is not something he would have done normally, especially at a work function.
it was his first session with this new IC yesterday, and she just thinks things shouldn't be too heavy between us while he's trying to figure out why he reacts to things the way he does and find some other answers for herself. i can respect that, but then, as my sister points out, doesn't that put things on HIS terms? i know i'm partly responsible for what happens from here forward, but if i want to work on and save our M, despite GAL and improving myself, doesn't that still put the ball in his court to decide if/when he wants to work on this?
I would love to have someone give me a page number from any of Michelle or others' books that say that working on the marriage means that it has to be on our terms - that we need to be in control.
For every disease, there is a cure. The cures can't all be the same and the wrong cure for the disease can kill.
Yes, you need to make your decisions about your life. So what if he's directing right now? As long as you don't let him direct you where you don't accept going, why not?
My understanding, which could be wrong, is that GAL is about moving on and not becoming the person that no one could love, and instead becoming someone that you can love. If you can't love you, then how can someone else? I do not believe that GAL is about being in control.
Remember TTA, you've only been really working on this in a different way than the past for a month. You ARE GAL just fine even though he's been driving for much of this time.
For me, if I can't get myself to a place I feel close to my W, how much work, IC, sex, talk, games, etc, will get me to go there? I have to want to. So does your H.
Side note: choosing to give him the time he needs is a choice of yours, isn't it? So who really has the ball?
thanks, OTM. i am certainly directing where my life is going right now and making choices and improvements that are good for ME. but it's still hard to feel like you're in the passenger seat sometimes.
i did chose to talk to him last night. we ended up on the phone until 2 in the morning. i'm not a big phone person, and i can easily say that was the longest phone conversation he and i have ever had. i think it's good he reached out to me and at one point he even said "well, who else would i talk to about all this stuff?" which made me feel good in that he still values me as a friend and confidant. we really had a wonderful conversation, we talked a lot about things his IC talked to him about, and i'm seeing that for once he's trying to get to the real root of some of the issues that have driven us to split before. i'm taking these things as signs of his love, that he's working to make the right choices for the right reasons.
so. today i'm hopeful. he asked me if we could have dinner tonight and i do have plans with a girlfriend but told him if that falls through that dinner would be nice. it's weird but i almost felt like last night we connected in a way that we really haven't before. we were so honest with each other and he really told me what was going on in his head. so that was nice. i did tell him that i'm glad he feels like he can trust me to talk to me about what's going on, because you'd kind of think i'd be the one person he wouldn't want to talk to about this.
i do still have plans to move tomorrow, to a cute new apartment one floor up from where i am now. i leave for my service trip in 2 weeks, and i know my H is very proud that i'm able to find it within myself to help others at a time when i need help, too. for me, though, i kind of feel that helping others is a way to help myself and to heal the hurt i'm feeling.
sorry if this is rambling and doesn't have a real point. i just had a really good conversation with my H and am feeling a little all over the place. trying to keep it cool...but he called me baby on the phone last night, which i haven't heard out of him in over a month. THAT felt good!
by the way, i know i should not jump to believe every word he says. but i also feel like he backs up saying "i love you" with seeing his IC to work out some issues, or taking the time to text me while he's at a work event, or ask me to dinner so he can see me.
no expectations, right?
It might not be the action that others might expect to see, but if it is enough to convince your mind and heart, you're probably doing the right thing to give your M a fighting, not waiting, chance.
I felt great doing the monologue with my W. Telling her what I had been feeling, getting out some old pins and needles from the past. I didn't get a chance to hear her side of things, and I didn't want to - I was afraid it might lead into a fight or a comparison of who was hurt more or some junk like that. Still, I know that she needs that too.
In your long conversation, did you talk about your feelings and thoughts? Was there anything you said that was of the 'old' W or was it the more assertive and goal directed W of today?
I hope you don't fall asleep during the day! You *might* have a busy night, too.
TTA,
No expectations. I think you are right that he SEEMS to be trying. I think there CAN be hope in that. Here's my debbie downer.... its barely been 6 weeks. Anyone can do anything for that amount of time. He is moving in the right direction with some of his actions - but don't read into them. He may determine through these actions that the marriage isn't right for him - please prepare yourself for this. You DON'T KNOW what will happen on his journey. I think you know this... I'm not sure you believe it yet... but knowing is the first step.
Just make sure you stay stand-offish in this. I'm not saying to totally ignore him... but protect your PMA. Just be happy to be you, living your life, growing into a wonderful you.
His actions MAY BE signs of good things to come, but there hasn't been enough time for you to know that yet. Taking them as anything but what they are would be a huge leap right now - despite some of the comments to the contrary. You CANNOT know what his actions mean yet and so you need to only think about you. If he REALLY wants to restore your M - he will work hard to do so no matter what is going on with you. Be civil, be kind, but be cautious. It will garner you respect.
(((TTA)))
T
TTA,
No expectations. I think you are right that he SEEMS to be trying. I think there CAN be hope in that. Here's my debbie downer.... its barely been 6 weeks. Anyone can do anything for that amount of time.
I'd stay warm, but strong. For him, if he's like me this way, doing something for a few weeks is a lot harder than it is for others unless it is really rewarding.
That is where Talia reminds well that caution needs to be. When you are extremely stimulating, but you know that kind of natural reward can't be maintained, then know that he might respond in ways that are his "freight train" style - full steam ahead!
At the same time, who wants to be friends with a wall? Does any man think, "I want that - she's cold, calculated, independent and will never need me?"
TTA, Talia is right. You're setting yourself up for a huge crash if you start believing everything H says or does right now is meaningful. Have hope but continue to work on detachment. It sounds like you are happy when he calls and unhappy when he doesn't call. This is NOT good. No matter what happens you need to learn how to create your own happiness and not rely on someone else for that.
Moving to your own place, your service trip--these are good things to focus on. Keep your focus on yourself.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_walkaway_wife.htm I've read the books...I didn't see 'get yourself detached'. I say get yourself enjoying life, working, growing, etc.
thanks to all of you for the advice and thoughts. i am definitely working on making my own happiness. of course i'm happy when he calls, but when he doesn't i'm sad momentarily. i just miss his voice. i don't linger in the unhappiness of him not calling. doing the things that do make me happy, like my service trip, taking yoga, spending time with my girlfriends, those have all felt very good in the last month, so that's what i'm keeping my focus on. but i am also focused on DB-ing. obviously that means focusing on myself, but i'm also watching for signals to gauge what's working and what's not. if he's calling, i'm counting that as baby steps. if's he is telling me he loves me, i'm not necessarily setting myself up for dissappointment, but i'm using that as a sign that i'm doing the right things.
he did ask me to dinner tonight so we'll see how that goes. i'm not getting ahead of myself and i do know that he may indeed find that our M is not what he wants. i also know that while i'd be very sad about that, that i would ultimately be fine. HE is reaching out to ME, he is calling, he is emailing, asking me to dinner...i see all of these things as signs that he wants to continue contact with me and for me, now would not be a good time to shut him out. i'm not throwing my arms open by any means. but the whole point of doing all these things i'm doing is to get him to walk to talk about things, which is what he's doing or working on doing. i'm working on being the best me i can be, and i like where it's been taking me.
OTMT, you obviously do not understand detachment. It's not about physically or emotionally leaving or being absent. It's about not depending on anyone else for your happiness, not being co-dependent. It's about taking responsibility for your own emotional well being and allowing others to take responsiblity for theirs. Perhaps you should also do some reading on the topic. Because on page 139 of DR in the list of
Mandatory Do's When Divorce Busting, number 8 is "Read as much as you can on this subject."
Developing Detachment article
Pearl, "obviously you do not" is not the kind of langauge that gets most men thinking to listen. BTW, as an ADHD adult, I've been learning to accept that my minds comes up with some creative but different looks at the same problem. That doesn't mean I didn't read something.
Now the article, much more useful. I'll read it, but not because #8 says so, but because I figure reading can't usually hurt.
Having read now my 9th book in 4 months, going on to the 10th, I don't call myself an expert. We are on a blog and we're here because we've screwed up or been screwed, but usually a little of both. That doesn't mean the 40th book I might read will make me any more of an expert, or you.
Sorry for the harshness, but this is now the 2nd hit you've given me.
The Last-Resort Technique, Step 3--Wait and Watch, pp 129-130
The second possible resonse from your mate is that s/he becomes curious. S/he might start showing more interest in you, your whereabouts, and what you are up to in your life. Your spouse might even suggest you spend soome time together to talk or do something enjoyable. It's also possible that your souse might start asking you a lot of questions about your sudden changes. If any of these things begin to happen, here's my advice:
- Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
- Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
- Do not ask any questions about your future together.
- Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
- Continue to be upbeat.
- Do not say, "I love you."
- Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
- Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.
The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partner's new interest, but not too responsive. If you go overboard, your partner will get cold feet. I've seen it happen many times before. If you are excited that the last-resort technique is working, share it with a friend, write it in your Solution Journal, go for a run around the block, but don't wear your emotions on your sleeve.
You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you're met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer than you would like, weeks, even many months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.
The Last-Resort Technique
And there is the most important part of the quote. LAST resort.
thanks for posting that, pearl. i have indeed read and reread DR and am familiar with the steps Michele listed in that chapter. i'm trying to incorporate all those steps with things i've noticed that have gotten positive responses or that have been working for me. i believe someone posted much earlier on my thread that since every situation and person is different that all the advice received here, and even in the DR, should be tailored to fit your specific situation. i know my H would not respond in a positive way to all the things on that list, so i'm doing what works for me and when something doesn't work and i get negative feedback, i stop doing it. i definitely feel like i'm in a holding pattern right now. i think my H is interested in working on our marriage but feels he has a lot of work to do on himself before he can dedicate himself to us. so i'm just testing the waters from time to time.
i am responsive in a cautious way. if he reaches out to me to vent during the work day, i respond by saying i'm sorry about the situation and try to validate what he's feeling. i know i don't have detachment down just yet, but i'm trying. DB-ing is like yoga or running, you have to keep at your practice and sometimes you skip a few days and it gets harder to get back into it.
i write in my journal. i do not cry in front of my H. i am not 100% or 80% or even 60% sure that my H is interested in saving our marriage. i am willing to wait things out and work on improving myself in the mean time, and i'm actually in a good (most of the time) place right now.
although i do think the DR book is great and incredible insightful, not all of the steps or all of the "rules" apply to everyone's situation. the best i can do is be patient, wait and watch to see what he responds to, and continue on my path to self-improvement. already i can say i like myself SO MUCH BETTER. i am proud of the way i've handled things. i've been patient and calm and understanding at a time where i wanted to be angry and vengeful and outraged. i've had to reach deep within myself to find the strength to overcome those feelings that i knew would get me nowhere. i'm not saying i don't have my bad days, or that i don't backslide, or cry into my pillow some nights. i'm willing to do the work, because while i may not be seeing the immediate results i want to see with my M, i'm seeing immediate results in myself that i'm very happy about.
OTMT... perhaps you will consider that PH *did* save her R, has been able to accomplish something that you have not yet been able to (piecing back a R), has a full year more than you posting on this site and a much higher post volume. That doesn't make one poster "better" but experience is our best teacher. It seems PH has some experience we ALL can draw on, right?
You said yourself you have control and anger issues. It is very good you recognize that and have plans to address both the control and anger. Maybe how you interact with the other posters would be a good place to start.
Nobody is trying to attack you. As I said... this isn't about "more right" it's about experience.
it's moving day...i'm looking forward to being in a new space, one that doesn't remind me so much of sitting around in "our" apartment with "our" things, but at the same time, anxious.
had a really nice dinner "date" with my H last night. he came to pick me up and we really didn't talk about our R all night, which was nice. just talked about his new job, my job, our families, other things we had going on...for a minute i almost forgot we were separated! so that felt good that we could do that and be comfortable and laugh and joke with each other. i met up with a girlfriend at a bar after we had dinner and he dropped me off there. it was hard to get out of the car, i was having such a nice time with him i could have stayed all night. he did kiss me goodbye, which also felt good. i'm glad i met up with my friend because i ended up having a really good time, met some nice new people...
i think in a few of the previous comments that OTM was trying to point out that TLR method may not be right for me because my H isn't saying the D word right now. we are physically separated, but we are in contact pretty much every day (he is calling, texting, emailing), there is no other person for either of us, my H is seeking IC, i'm talking to a coach...so, like i said in my earlier post, i'm taking some of TLR methods that i feel apply in my situation and others i'm not using because i don't think they would be helpful or my H has not responded well to them.
i'm also working very hard to better understand the ADHD mind, because my H's brain is just wired in a totally different way than mine is and that means i also have to be somewhat cautious about the methods i use in moving forward - he may interpret something i say or do in a totally different way than i had intended and it could set me back or inflict negative emotions on him.
but. you guys are all helping me so much, i find myself thinking about the advice i've gotten here while i'm interacting with my H. last night at dinner i sat across the table from him and though, you know, i'm really enjoying this and it's so great to be here with him, but i would be ok if i had to live without this, too.
off to pack!
awesome news!!! Congratulations on the new apartment, incredible upcoming trip, and hopeful progressions.. Keep doing what you're doing.. An inspiration to us all.
last night at dinner i sat across the table from him and though, you know, i'm really enjoying this and it's so great to be here with him, but i would be ok if i had to live without this, too.
That's a great way to look at it!
had a long but busy weekend. went through the full range of human emotions on saturday, while my dad, sister and cousin were helping me move the things that my H SHOULD have been helping me move. i was angry, i was hurt, i was sad, i was excited about my new space...i'd had a nice dinner with my H the night before and we had a hard time parting ways, but it was at least nice to enjoy his company and not talk about the R for once. i got myself mostly settled in to the new place saturday and saw my H again on sunday, we were both in the old place - him painting me getting the last few things out.
we ended up sitting on the floor of our empty bedroom together, facing the wall we'd painted a little over a year ago when we'd moved in. there were a lot of tears and he said a lot of things about how confused he was and sorry he was...obviously i know not to take it all to heart or to believe all of it, but he does seem to at least acknowledge his mistakes and isn't giving me the "i don't see us together in ten years" talk anymore. he owned up to a lot of things. i collected my last few things and left him alone in the apartment to paint.
finally got my last few things unpacked last night in the new place and am really liking the space. it doesn't feel like home at all, but i didn't really expect it to. we did talk again on the phone last night, again just talking and nothing heavy about the R. it's nice to have conversations with him that aren't related to our M again.
have plenty to keep me busy this week with a major event at work but he did ask to see me later in the week. i also told my family i'd have them over for dinner and plan to see an exhibit with girlfriends on friday, plus some yoga classes here and there. had to fill out an application to extend my lease and had a really hard time checking the "separated" box next to marital status. who knew they even had one of those?? that was a bit of a bummer...
but i'm still standing. getting ready for my service trip in 2 weeks and just taking it one day at a time.
nothing filed yet, either. not sure how to feel about that, but i'm not going to ask about it.
helping me move the things that my H SHOULD have been helping me move.
Didn't you say that you didn't want to ask him? If you're just venting, I understand. You might want to deal with this issue with your IC just to make sure it doesn't creep back up during a text message or something.
I hadn't even thought of it, but if he did come to help, I wonder what it would be like if you had to watch him carrying around great (and not so great) memories. He offered if I remember correctly, so that is good~
does seem to at least acknowledge his mistakes and isn't giving me the "i don't see us together in ten years" talk anymore.
Hold on to that!
it doesn't feel like home at all, but i didn't really expect it to.
One thing I noticed as W and I go through these tough, emotional times is that home is so much more than walls. It must be hard to know you're leaving a home, but not knowing if the new walls, his new walls, or something else will become a warm home to relax in. Whatever comes though, it sounds like you are trying hard to be ready for it. Have you decided to do your best in your new place to make that a home, or just shelter?
had to fill out an application to extend my lease and had a really hard time checking the "separated" box next to marital status.
They should have a box saying, "improving my M, one day at a time"
nothing filed yet, either. not sure how to feel about that, but i'm not going to ask about it.
Unless you wanted it, feel great about it. It means that he isn't where he was when you did your post signature. Maybe it should say something like, "we are now owning up to a lot of things and making hope, but not yet guarantees"
I hope you get a chance to do that skating thing before the ice melts! It sounded like fun~
Dear TTA,
I just wanted to say what a fantastic job I think you are doing throughout this process, and good words of advice you have gotten from Pearl and others! I was thinking of you this weekend as I was also packing up things for my move...got a little teary a few times and then empowered doing this on my own at others. It's not easy, and you are farther along in this process than I was at the time, so close to the separation.
It's fantastic that you have these things to look forward to, and also a good sign that H is going to IC and dealing w his issues. It doesn't seem like he's in a place to be a full H now to you anyways, so best he deal w his own issues too, regardless of the outcome.
I'll be thinking of you a lot in the days/weeks ahead, as I'm about to move out of my place too and completely start over..and nothing filed with me yet either. Daunting, but I'm trying to look at it as liberating as I can. We are ultimately in charge of our own happiness, and even though I know you experience setbacks here and there, you have a good attitude.
Wishing you a good week and much strength! I too have been going to church a lot more across these past few months which has been a huge source of comfort. I feel someone/thing is looking out for me, and for you and all of us here too!
-hhh
thanks, OTM and HHH. your responses were both very helpful! OTM, my H didn't offer to help me move, he offered to paint the apartment back to white after i moved out. and it's not that i WANTED him there to help and he turned me down, i was more upset that i should have been moving to a new place with my H, you know? and here was my family, including my 62 year old father, hauling my things around, because of a decision HE made about our M. that's what i really meant by that comment.
also loved the comment on the "improving my M day by day" box for marital status. they really DO need to add that one!
HHH i also think it's great my H is seeking help from an IC. he recognizes his pattern of behavior and yesterday said he didn't want to end up like other male members of his family - who have all at some point or another left their wives (although they all returned!), or have ended up skipping from one relationship to the next. i do have hope that regardless of what happens with us that my H will FINALLY understand what true partnership is about and that there's really no half-as$ing anything when it comes to marriage. but like you said, i'm glad he's dealing with his issues.
thanks for sharing your words of encouragement, HHH! i'll be thinking of you in church this weekend with your upcoming move!
and OTM, i know what you mean about the house/home concept. from the moment my H moved out (and even before that when he was sleeping on our neighbor's couch), that apartment stopped being my home and started just being a house. i am working to make my new space feel like a place i could call home, but...it's just not the same without his presence there. i guess i need to throw myself a housewarming party.
ps OTM, thanks for the signature block suggestion. it was too long to fit.
my dad told me over the weekend that he has pretty much given up on my H. that just about killed me. there is no one on earth i admire and respect more than my dad. he did tell me he's proud of the way i've been handling all this and my positive outlook and attitude, but...it still breaks my heart to think he's given up on my M. my own father thinks D would be better than staying married to my H. he said he would support whatever we decided to do, but...those words will ring in my ears for a long time.
briefly talked with my H this morning via text and email. he texted at 6:45 this am to wish me luck with my work events this week...put a smile on my face to know he's thinking about me before i even wake up.
Pretend he said that he wants you to work on your M and that he has high hopes, would you feel bad if it didn't work out? Maybe a little more failure?
I can't say that your dad is feeling that, but he might just want to say he doesn't want you feeling like you failed when your H has done some stuff that has made him worry.
TTA,
Don't worry about what your dad said - I KNOW that's easier said than done. My parents have been wonderful - supporting me fighting for my marriage this whole time. They are encouraging me to keep at it - even though I'm getting to the end of my rope. My sister OTOH, said she would never forgive H. The entire family will always have their opinions.
You are doing well and you just keep that up. Don't let anyone distract you. The things you are doing now will be the best thing for you in the long run - with or without H.
Its good H is thinking of you.... just protect your PMA... No Expectations!!!
T
H texted again first thing this morning to wish me luck with my work events...so that felt good and got my day off to a decent start. it IS nice that he's thinking of me, talia. we may get together on thursday, but nothing solid. either way i have lots of plans for the weekend and leave for my service trip a week from saturday.
it's strange the cycle of emotions that you go through in dealing with all of this. sometimes i am so lonely and sometimes i feel totally ok with living alone and actually enjoy having my own space. sometimes i think i can keep up my hope for months and months and fight to save my M. sometimes i think why on earth should i even bother when this is the 3rd time he's left? i know everyone on this site goes through these emotions and it is helpful just to be able to share them with others who know exactly how i feel.
H has another appointment with his IC tomorrow. and he did text me last night to say he hoped i'd had a good day. i feel like i'm in a very weird situation where my H and i don't live together but we still talk every day, he still reaches out to me in some way every day. part of TLR technique is going dark, but how do i not respond when he's just texting or emailing to check in and wish me luck or offer support? should i not be responding at all or would that give him the wrong impression since he's clearly reaching out?
In some ways I'm in the reverse situation, but it's a rollercoaster for me, too. The only difference is the feeling of being a 'little' more in control.
Question: Is your communication and level of 'connection' better now that it has been in the past few times you patched things up post-break up?
i feel like we are connecting on a different, deeper level. in the past, my H would initiate a break up, then leave, then come barreling back a few weeks later. this time he is cautious and has still not decided what he wants in terms of our M. previously when he was in this state, he wanted me back the second he missed me. it seems that this time he is at least genuinely trying to understand the root of his emotions and has told me that he looks forward to seeing his IC again this week.
he's called me just to talk. he's called me when he's had a rough day and just needed to share it with someone. when he does call, he sends a text or email the next day to thank me for talking with him or having dinner with him. i don't know if it's a good zone to be in, but i feel like he's confiding in me...which is odd, because i'm sort of the "cause" of the problems/hurt, and yet, he's still reaching out.
so it does feel different this time. less like a train barreling through. more like a slow down and proceed with caution.
So then why think about the last resort? I'm in his shoes somewhat, and my W deciding to let go and move on meant I no longer knew if I was important enough to her. That meant me moving on was easier.
Now, she is much closer, despite her huge fears of being cut loose. For me, I'm trying to find out if I can make love where it has never been.
Your husband has different issues, but knowing that you are inviting him in isn't the same as just knowing the door is open for now. Even in LRT, doesn't Pearl's posted quote mention that it could take months?
because i'm sort of the "cause" of the problems/hurt, and yet, he's still reaching out.
Whoa...forgot about this...don't blame yourself alone! My W's self-esteem/depression issues have been a real hurt and yes, had it not been I MAY have developed love a long time ago. Then again, maybe not. Also, my overreactions and lack of attention to her have made things much worse.
We are both on the ship - to sink, or swim. If we sink, we pray. The coast guard comes and we get reeled in to improve our live and live by God's messengers.
because i'm sort of the "cause" of the problems/hurt, and yet, he's still reaching out.
Whoa...forgot about this...don't blame yourself alone!
i'm not blaming myself here, OTM. just meant that our M was the thing in his life causing all this hurt and strife, yet he still feels like he can call me up and talk to me about it. it's weird because i feel like i should be the one person he doesn't want to talk to right now. i do not at all blame myself for the situation we're in. i know we both had a hand in getting to this point and i acknowledge my responsibilities and behaviors that were less than favorable...but i by no means accept all the blame here.
Maybe because your M also gave him many things he holds and will hold valuable each day of his life, and you are the person holding his heart strings...
This might sound harsh, but I think you should seriously consider your dad's advice. Your marriage is very short to have experienced this so many times, including even before your marriage even began (unless I'm missing something and you and your H dated for many years prior or something). I don't know if the problem is you or your R at all. It might be one of those situations where it is totally him. If you want to start a family soon, do you want to spend 2 years or more fixing this with a serial walk-away husband who may not be able to handle the added stress of a child once the child arrives? I don't know. Only you can guess. But I would think long and hard about what your dad has to say while you are DBing. See what would be best for you and try to figure out if you can even handle the timeline for fixing such things. Your H may not be able to fix this quickly in IC. Sorry if this sounds harsh. I am just pointing out another possible view to consider over the next six months as you make your decision. I think IC would be useful for you alone to sort out what is best for you, not just the R.
I wrote the above in reply to your earlier thread about marriages with rocky starts.
HI TTA,
I'm going to take a hard nosed approach - I want you to think about this from a different angle. I'm not saying its right, but it is something to think about.
Your H is getting you to meet all his emotional needs while he lives away from you and doesn't have to be committed at all to his marriage. LRT is designed to force the WAS to see what it would actually be like to be WITHOUT the emotional support of the spouse. Its a way for you to gain some space and quiet to really start the process of moving forward with or without H. Its not a strategy to be employed for the sole purpose of getting him to notice you. That's the possible benefit - not the motivation.
You are over thinking everything. You are definitely expecting things from him with his behavior toward you. You need to stop thinking about what you are doing related to H, how your action/in action is affecting him.
I can't tell you what the magic plan is to get H back. I think as long as you are civil you will be ok. Just remember - he lives somewhere else and that's not what a husband should do. ACTIONS are the key - and you haven't had enough time to know for sure what his actions mean. STOP trying to read into everything - his words and behaviors. STOP trying to read his mind. STOP trying to behave based on what you assume he thinks about how you are behaving.
Treat him like a good work friend - not too personal but nice at the same time. Maybe think of it like the way you treat your boss - friendly and respectful but never too much information or details?? Don't know if that image helps you. YOU are not going to necessarily make or break this decision for him. He SEE'S what you are doing - so STOP worrying about it. The issues are HIS, you cannot work to fix your marriage until he is willing. You are doing WHAT YOU CAN. The rest needs to be put on the back burner until you have a willing partner.
Please DO NOT listen to the advice you are getting about considering H's side and H's feelings. There are alot of very new people here on the boards and sometimes the advice isn't always DB centric. Anything other than what you are doing is pursuing - BIG no no. You CANNOT at this point consider H in all your decisions. He may not be around long term and therefore you have to do what is BEST FOR YOU ONLY. If that means going dark to give yourself space - THEN DO IT. Only you will know. Anyone telling you to think about H's side of this is giving you WRONG advice. Plain and Simple.
Keep doing what works - what the books says - Respond to him - but don't initiate. Limit interactions - just be busy - and don't agree to spend time every time he asks. Only focus on YOU and changing you to be a better person. Don't mind read - you have no idea what he's thinking - and NO EXPECTATIONS.
You truly need to get to a place where it DOESN'T make your day if he texts you in the morning - that's detachment.
I want to re-iterate - YOU ARE DOING GREAT!!! I am just worried you are being overly encouraged to pursue H because you are getting some favorable responses. Just remember - its still too early to tell and you have to keep doing what IS WORKING!!! If you are getting favorable results DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING!!
Do me a favor - have you made your goals like DR says? Please list them here so we can help you evaluate where you are at based on your goals...
(((TTA)))
T
Here is a thread to help with goals if you haven't done them...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1939171#Post1939171Lets start evaluating based on concrete "WHAT WORKS" stuff instead of the more subjective things being posted....
T
Keep doing what works - what the books says - Respond to him - but don't initiate. Limit interactions
I really don't think that is what the author is saying. For example, the quote from Pearl said,
"Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you're met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can."
That hardly seems disinterested. That seems controlled and focused on the long-term.
If you can't see oncoming traffic, you're bound to get hit. If your H is making his way toward you, your eyes need to be fully open and aware. That means understanding, but not obsessing or smothering/pursuing.
OTM,
You conveniently quote only the things that make your point - and you usually miss the point entirely. This may be harsh but its time....
Look at TTA's dates - BOMB 1/6/10 - explain to me how in the world you think that quote applies this early on. TTA's H has not done ANYTHING that would even remotely fit into the description of "ABSOLUTELY SURE". That quote applies after some CLEAR indication he wants to work on things, like say, asking her to move back in with him. You need to stop mind reading for her H. YOU have no idea what he is thinking, SHE has no idea what he is thinking, HECK I bet HE has no idea what he is thinking yet. TIME is the key and there has not been enough time, LET ALONE BEHAVIORS to indicate he's moving toward her - NONE. It COULD all be chalked up to selfish desires to have someone comfortable meet his emotional needs. It may not lead him home at ALL. You cannot assume that is what it means and neither can TTA. NO EXPECTATIONS.
NOW IS NOT TIME TO TEST THE WATERS. What you "think" about what the author is saying is irrelevant. TTA is not in piecing mode yet... she's in LRT/GAL. You need to think about whether the advice you are giving is meant for the recipient or whether it is meant to appease your own feelings about your own situation. You have posted some very insightful things - I've been impressed - but sometimes you miss the boat entirely.
Please read the book 10 or 12 more times and then you may be better situated to comment. In this process you CANNOT skip the hard parts in the middle and just move on to the end of the book. TTA IS DOING AMAZING and because of that - she is getting RESULTS. Changing that now - this early on - could ruin it all.
TTA - SORRY FOR THE HIJACK - I don't mean to be a total wench on your thread. Keep it up girl - you are on track!! Don't backslide now that you are seeing the early signs of progress. Remember - when making a fire... after you get the first spark you need to give it oxygen... but if you blow too hard you might blow it out... then you have to start all over. Blow gently at this point....
T
Keep doing what works - what the books says - Respond to him - but don't initiate. Limit interactions
I really don't think that is what the author is saying.
Yes, this is what MWD is saying.
p.99
Step Number 4--Stop Going Down Cheeseless Tunnels"But the truth is the only real failure is to keep doing what hasn't been working, and, if your marriage is teetering on the edge, doing more of the same is downright dangerous."
p.130
"The general rule of thumb here is to
be responsive to your partner's new interest, but not too responsive. If you go overboard, your partner will get cold feet. I've seen it happen many times before. If you are excited that the last-resort technique is working, share it with a friend, write it in your Solution Journal, go for a run around the block, but don't wear your emotions on your sleeve.
You need to stay interested, but cool,
until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together."
TTA, are you
absolutely convinced that your H wants to save your marriage? If not then stick with what you have been doing so far that has been working.
And yes, I think you should definitely be using the Last-Resort Technique.
p.124
"It's imperative that you begin doing the last-resort technique immediately if:
- Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn't just said in the heat of battle.
- You and your spouse are separated physically.
- You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
- Your spouse has filed for divorce."
Your sitch fits both of the first two criteria.
I totally agree with talia's advice.
Step Number 4--Stop Going Down Cheeseless Tunnels
"But the truth is the only real failure is to keep doing what hasn't been working, and, if your marriage is teetering on the edge, doing more of the same is downright dangerous."
Had you not understood your H better, TTA, would you have been able to make as many changes as you did?
Regardless of what I or others say, make sure it is what YOU feel is right. You'll live with you and your choices, not us.
OTM,
You conveniently quote only the things that make your point - and you usually miss the point entirely. This may be harsh but its time....
Do you speak to all strangers this way? If so, maybe YOU need to read a few relationship books, too.
Had you not understood your H better, TTA, would you have been able to make as many changes as you did?
Changes shouldn't be made for the spouse's benefit. The WAS will see right through it for what it is, another attempt to get them back. If the WAS does come back, the LBS will revert to former behavior because the crisis is has been resolved. Then the WAS will become dissatisfied and probably leave again. There are several stories like this on the boards.
Changes should be made because
you have done some serious self-evaluation and decided that
you want to become a better person
for yourself.
If a H grew up/had physical abuse, emotional abuse, depression, a single parent, traumatic events, a previous D, life-long conditions, or other things, they will not necessarily act the way the book suggests (see book, "Imperfect Harmony").
Understanding them is not about making the other person come back, it is about noticing what triggered feelings of shame, jealosy, etc. It is about being more empathetic to their situation and their point of view. It is about being able to maximize your converstations for now, but also for later in the R. If the R doesn't succeed or it does, those same skills can be used for other Rs, and to some degree for oneself.
not seeing the H tonight. too tired after 2 days of working until 11, but may see him tomorrow. not much contact but he has been texting to wish me luck with my work events and emailed today. something seems different in his tone, but i'm trying not to read into it too much. said he saw his counselor again last night and he liked that she asked him a lot of hard questions. i don't know where this leaves ME, though...i'm glad he's examining his own behavior and history and all that, but i'm also trying to forge forward and don't like feeling like i'm in a holding pattern. i said i would wait, and i will...but at the same time, i'm starting to feel that distance not in the "absence makes the heart grow fonder" kind of way. more like the "absence makes me feel like i don't know you anymore" kind of way.
we'll see. i may be over-reacting because i'm seriously overly-tired. his email said he did want to hear about my week and my work events, i know i shouldn't let it bother me that he didn't seem overly emotional or weepy. i clearly just need a nap. wait. first a martini, then a nap.
[quote=Onthemountaintop]
[quote=talia]
p.124
"It's imperative that you begin doing the last-resort technique immediately if:
- Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn't just said in the heat of battle.
- You and your spouse are separated physically.
- You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
- Your spouse has filed for divorce."
Your sitch fits both of the first two criteria.
well...my H said he wanted to separate. he's NEVER used the D word and from the day he moved out, he's said that now he's not even sure if separation was the answer. so. we do not live together anymore. but he's never said the word divorce to me, not even when he talked about separating.
it was also nice to hear that other people had it way worse than me - i don't mean that in a nasty way, but it did make me grateful that i wasn't going through what some of the others there were
Trytry, I just love the fact that you are finding things to be grateful for despite your painful circumstances! My aunt has a saying in our household - what you focus on will grow (this is a DB philosophy too)and so when you can recognize the small gifts you have been given (ie: not having to fight to see children out of state) it gives you the freedom to grow.
I have found in my personal life that wisdom is mined in the dark places of life. If you keep your eyes open during these difficult times to what you can learn and grow personally, then no matter what happens with your husband, you will be richer in the next season of life. Bravo on your GAL endeavors. Keep up the good work!
need a little advise this morning...have plans to meet my H for dinner tonight, and some friends are planning to get together and asked me to join. do i ditch my H and tell him something else came up? i do have plans with friends tomorrow night and sunday, and i do want to see my H, but also not sure how i'm feeling about seeing him. i want to, but at the same time, it's like...what for? nothing's going to change. i have made myself overly available for his emotional needs, so he's been getting what he needs from me and meanwhile, what do i get? i've been working so hard at this DB-ing thing and am focusing on doing things for myself and then i do let myself get disappointed if i don't hear from him or even if i do and his tone isn't what i want it to be.
i'm in a grumpy mood today...i just feel like i've been doing all the work and he goes to a counselor 2 times and i'm still on standby waiting for HIM to want to work on our marriage. granted, i'm moving forward no matter what, but...i think i'm letting myself slide back into feelings of resentment and that's not a good place to be.
thoughts? advice??
Pretend he was one of your two best friends. Would you not see one of the two if the other invited you first? If either event isn't 'cancellable' (like a Fri night only thing), that might be another thing to look at.
When you go out with him, is it something you get? Does his company make you happy, or is it just listeing cause you feel obliged? If you enjoy spending time with him, is that what a R gives someone?
I keep asking my W to be patient with me. Your H did just start counselling, so he needs that time as well (I think). Every time I meet my IC, I take a step, although they aren't all in the same direction. If he is like me, he needs some time to make long term committments.
I'm guessing you've already begun worrying that you are putting in time and effort, so what if he comes out saying he met someone else, or that he decided he can't commit? That is the hardest decision you (and my W) have to make - is he worth the wait?
I know asking my W to pitch a tent is hard, and that our interactions aren't like they'd be had I been 100% there. But what else can I (or he) do if we aren't sure?
Remember, you and he have only been actively doing "180" type stuff (him with IC and taking things slow but deep, you with so many things). Will you give it 6 months? 9 months? What is your limit.
I don't know if any of this helps...but it's some thoughts...
TTA,
Ditch H and go with the friends. It will be a good 180 for you and its better you DON'T let him see you grumpy. Since your feelings about him/ the sitch are the apparent reason for the grump it might be better to steer clear.
Letting him see you in that mental state would not be conducive toward your goals. You need to stick to your goals!!
And you are correct - you have been meeting alot of his EN's lately - perhaps this is one time you should not do that.
MHO...
T
TTA,
You're doing an incredible job of handling yourself under extreme stress and not being a total b$&ch to your husband. Bravo!
If you keep your plans with him tonight, you can spend some time this afternoon thinking about how to make the most of that meeting.
Good luck!
thanks for all the good thoughts, everyone.
turns out my H isn't feeling well and we rescheduled. i told him i may be able to find some time sunday to catch up with him, but we'll see. i think he's overwhelmed with stress at work and also has to move out of the office he and his business partner set up because they can no longer afford it.
i plan to hook up with friends and my cousin tonight instead. i will admit to being hurt that i won't see him tonight...i do enjoy the time we've spent together recently, we've had some good laughs and some really good conversations. but i know i'll have a good time tonight as well.
thanks for the encouragement. i'm working on putting my EN first, talia, i swear.
TTA,
You are doing a great job!!! I have to say - FWIW - I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY proud of you for everything you are doing. Please don't think anything else. You are in a great place given the timing of your sitch. We are here to help keep you on track and you a trooper
I'm glad you didn't see H last night - for whatever reason. Its always better to be at your best for those times!
Did you have a great night with the girls??
T
turns out my H isn't feeling well and we rescheduled. i told him i may be able to find some time sunday to catch up with him, but we'll see. i think he's overwhelmed with stress at work and also has to move out of the office he and his business partner set up because they can no longer afford it.
Congratulations on continuing to consider his side of things, while still planning your life around your own needs! If you hadn't, it would be sooo easy to make many false (or correct) but unhelpful assumptions about why he cancelled. Your offer being tentative also reminds him that he has chosen to have some distance, while being polite and encouraging.
TTA, do you think that his problems staying focused on the R is too much work for you to handle? I'm asking for my own sitch, because today my W was mentioning how she felt I didn't give her enough attention when she spoke, which made her feel I saw her ideas as a waste of time to hear. I guess what I'm trying to ask is that while there are pros to ADHD spouses, are the cons something you choose to deal with and then can, or is it more like a tolerance level that you think you are born with or not.
BTW - when do you leave for your trip to a rebuilding New Orleans?
OTM-
one of the best pieces of advise i've read about being a non-adhd married to an adhd spouse is that you just have to be married to the right person. i was already a pretty patient person going into my M but living with my H and dealing with the way he navigates a conversation has made me even MORE patient. i do get upset from time to time if i'm talking about something important to me and his response has nothing to do with what i'm talking about, but i've also learned not to take it personally because i know he IS listening to me, but he's just not processing information the way i do. i could get upset about that, but it would be a waste of time. hopefully your wife can realise that you don't think her ideas are a waste of time to hear, but it may also take a little extra work from you to make her feel like you DO hear her.
trust me, when i'm talking to my H about a family problem or something going on at work and he responds with, "you know, we really need to get an oil change" or "i just realised i forgot to send that email to my boss today," it stings a little. imagine if your wife responded to your conversations that way. i know it's not necessarily done on purpose or to be hurtful, but even without the intent to hurt, it still hurts just the same. but i do think it also has a lot to do with tolerance level. like i said, i am very patient. and i also have a desire to understand more about the way he thinks and the way his brain works. i will tell you, as someone without adhd, it's very hard to understand that your partner's brain doesn't work the same way yours does. if he interrupts me, why does he get to say it's because his brain is wired that way and he just doesn't filter out that conversation doesn't work that way? if i interrupt, i'm just rude. you see what i mean? so i've worked hard to get a grasp on what it means to have and operate on an adhd brain.
but i also think that the spouse with adhd needs to work equally as hard to understand the needs/feelings of the non-adhd spouse. like i said, it's all about being married to the right person.
i leave on saturday for my service trip. i'm really looking forward to it!
so i finally met up with my H last night. we have had some form of communication on a daily basis for at least the last 2 weeks, but it was the first time i'd seen him physically in a week.
friday i went to my cousins and had a really nice time and my H wanted to possibly meet up saturday night but i told him i had plans with my girls. we went to an art opening and then to get dinner, which was also a really good time. saturday morning my H moved out of his office (the consulting firm he and his business partner run on top of their normal 9-5 jobs) so it was a hard morning for him. he texted that he felt like a failure since his business venture hadn't panned out. i wrote back and told him that success wasn't only defined one way and that i'd always been proud of his motivation and drive to have the career that he wants. but i know it was still a hard day for him and it was difficult for me to not reach out and meet his emotional needs - so i guess that was a 180 for me, to not try and make him feel better. i just said i understood how he felt and that i was sorry he and his business partner had to move out.
saturday was also a hard day for me because i ended up at my parent's house and my sister was also there and i sort of got into a fight with my mom (typical) which turned into a "family forum" where my mom went on about how my H was not a husband, how there was no way on earth he'd ever loved me, how he would never be welcome in the family again, and how she was ready for me to cut my losses and move on. did my best to set boundaries and told them all i respected their opinions and they were all entitled to their feelings but that i was dealing with things in a way that i felt was best for ME and i just needed their support in whatever i chose to do.
sunday went to church with my girlfriends and had a call with my new life coach...who suggested that i try a therapist! i had to laugh at that.
i'm thinking maybe she's right. going to look into that. my H is seeing his counselor once a week now, and they are exploring some of his past and trying to uncover the root of some of his behavior patterns. don't think that means anything would change, but at least he's making the effort to see what's beneath the surface.
it was good to see him for dinner, we tried a new place which was nice and we had plenty to talk about. we laughed some and i talked about my upcoming service trip, which i think he has mixed feelings about. he said he was jealous that i was doing it, that it wasn't just something i said i was going to do, but that i was actually doing it. so. i guess i am proving that i am a woman of my word.
it was hard for him to drop me off at my apartment so he could head back to his. we called it a night early and he cried when he hugged me goodbye. he said he thinks about me and about us so much it's getting to be detremental to his productivity at work. not much i can do about that. but it's nice to know i'm thought of.
so. no expectations. if i see him this week before i leave, great. if not, i have a week in new orleans to look forward to that will keep a smile on my face.
thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and great advice. maybe i will get the hang of all of this one of these days.
how there was no way on earth he'd ever loved me
The stuff you've written about sure sounds like some pretty powerful emotions from him - if it isn't love, what else would drive him to tear up as he hugs you and drops you off? Threatening that someone wouldn't have a place in someone's house is pretty rough. Do you feel that you could (or should) have acted on your boundaries earlier, before the conversation got to deep, or was it all in your face at once?
who suggested that i try a therapist!
For what?
RE your Hs IC, I've found that understanding where my thoughts might be coming from are helpful because then I don't "blame" my W for how I might be feeling at a given time - it makes it more possible to accept responsibility for how I act.
Caution? It also makes me remember some of my dreams and goals I had that I shoveled under during the first part of my R. If he's got a good IC or good friends, he'll be reminded about the benefits of the R over those dreams (which are just dreams, not necessarily facts).
he said he thinks about me and about us so much it's getting to be detremental to his productivity at work.
Wow - do I ever get that. ADHD means hyperfocus, too. I'm trying to cut back, but I feel like if I can't get the M working now, I do NOT want to drag it out for a year of "maybes". I'm always surprised that some people on these boards are still separated two or more years on. The need to solve M problems make work seem so trivial. What is more important - the person you sleep next to in a R, or a job? The job has needs, too, but it is hard to get the dopamine there~
well, my mom is a all at once kind of attacker. once she feels the need to tell me her opinion, not even the hoover damn could keep her emotions back. she is going to tell you what she thinks and you are going to sit there and listen. period, end of story. after she was done i told her that while i respected her opinions, i didn't need to hear about what an a$$ she thinks my H is right now and that was most of the reason why i'd stopped calling as much. i said, if you let up on that, i'll call more. plan and simple. i guess she just feels like anyone that could leave me 2 times could never actually love me. my H said to me last night before we parted ways that my family will "always hate" him. i said, they won't always hate you...but they will never understand you the way that i do. they are not very quick forgives. my mother especially. ESPECIALLY if she's already told you that if you do something again, she'll never forgive you. that's just how she operates. three strikes YOU ARE OUT. no questions asked.
my coach suggested therapy because she said i have some issues i need to work through before i can "move forward" with my healing process. i guess her thought is that i'd just be sweeping some things under the rug or trying to build something on top of an unstable foundation if i don't explore these things with a professional. thankfully my insurance will help me cover the expense, so hopefully i can find someone i click with. i am a BIG FAN of therapy!
Have you ever thought about a 180 with mom where she starts attacking him and you got up and left the room?
Based on what you said, I'd wonder if your mom has, perhaps, told your H that she doesn't care for him before this separation round. If that is the case, and it might not be, I doubt a H (any man, not just him) can feel great visiting your family with you if he isn't sure you'd stand up for him. My parents/sister have complaints about my W and me both. When they talk about any of us, though, it is usually with respect for the person. My mom made it really clear that she doesn't think my W should drive (ever) because she can't follow directions. That isn't the same as if she said, "give up on hoping your W will learn or trying to teach her". I need our moms/others pointing out what we don't want to see...but there has to be a limit, I think.
i think for sure that in the event that my H wanted to work things out, he would have a very hard road not only with me, but with my family as well. my mother has already assured me that if i let him back into my life, there is no way to convince her that this will not happen again. she has PROMISED me he would leave again and again. when my mother has a complaint, respect is out the door. my dad is a little more on the rational side and my sister has said she'd support whatever my decision is, but yeah, my mom has pretty much wiped her hands of my M and my H and has already told me to move on. i said, mom, would you like me to file for D tomorrow and go on a date next week? what am i doing right now if i'm not working on moving forward?
trust me, OTM, if i had a dollar for every time i walked away from one of my mother's rants...i could retire by now. she is rock steady in her approach and there is NO STOPPING HER once she gets going. she'd follow me to the next room just so that i can continue to hear what she has to say. because SHE IS RIGHT. always.
ugggggggggggggggh.
So have you tried just walking out? Would you like to?
on my mother? of course i have. when she calls me and gets going, i literally put the phone down and walk away and when i come back, she's still going on and on and has no idea i've even put the phone down. she amazes me with her persistance for making her voice and opinions heard. even when NO ONE wants to hear them and even when you ask her specifically to not say anything. leaving the room doesn't help. she follows. or she will just pick up the conversation later when you're back in the room.
i'm telling you, look up the word bull-headed, stubborn or blockhead in the dictionary, there is a picture of my mom under all those entries.
Hi TTA,
It seems like you and I have some common themes. I'm a little older than you but my hubby's the same age as yours and he walked out too, only it was a lot longer ago! But I'm still actively DB-ing and keeping the faith!
Anyway, though my H hasn't said it in so many words, I know his perception that my family hates him for doing this to me is a factor that's really hurting our chances for reconciliation. If I ever have the chance - for example, if he every says something directly about my family holding an eternal grudge - I plan to totally let him know that I choose him over them. Ex: "If my parents won't treat you with the love and respect you deserve as their son-in-law, then they're going to lose their relationship with me." Oh how I wish I had acted that way *before* we separated!!!
So back to you - maybe if your H brings up your family again, you could say something to assure him that you would side with him instead of them. That might seem like a total 180 to your H, but it also might open up some possibilities...
Just a thought. Anyway, good luck!
Wow - mom seems like a tough cookie, but she is your mom and I'm sure she loves you. Still, if she thinks that her words will eventually get to you, she'll keep at it.
Honoring and respecting parents is really important, but there is a limit. They shouldn't ever ask you to disrespect another or do other sins/"badness".
If you want an end to her berating him - I think if you tell her that you will not be a part of the conversation, and leave, and she continues then leave again after letting her know why. If you have to do it 7,000 times, it will eventually (partly?) sink in for this topic. Only she can change herself, but just as we've read to do with a spouse, setting boundaries and then acting on them (painfully, repeatedly) can get the message across. Mrs A made a point to consider - telling H that you stood up for him shows him that you are committed. It also tells him that if he does screw up, you have the strength to follow through a little more than you already have.
BTW, I checked my dictionary, and there was a woman's picture in it... (kidding~)
Hi TTA,
Keep doing what you are doing - its WORKING!! FWIW I think everyone could benefit from a great therapist - its done wonders for me. I've deal alot with the M issues but alot more with my own issues - its been wonderful! Just MHO...
Big Hugs!!
T
i think for sure that in the event that my H wanted to work things out, he would have a very hard road not only with me,
What did you mean by this, TTA?
OTM, i guess i mean that if my H knocked on my door today and said, hey, let's work this out, it would be very difficult for him to show me that i can trust him again. he has left not just once or twice, but THREE TIMES. am i the idiot for always letting him come back? i don't know. but how do you start a family with someone who has walked away from the commitment of our M more than one time ALREADY? it only gets harder with children and mortages and all the other stress that life brings!
last time we reconciled, it was all about talk. talk talk talk. he wrote me these amazing letters and bowled me over with promises to be a better man and do this and that and i believed it all. his actions backed up his words for about 2 months before he slowly started slipping back into his old behaviors...spending less and less time with me, more time at work, more time with his buddies, drinking more, going out more...so, i guess what i'm saying is that even IF we did decide to work on the M, i don't even know HOW i would go about learning to trust this man again.
but yes, my mom is a tough cookie. i'm having lunch with her today before i leave for my service trip. i know she just wants to be a part of my life and that her idea of marriage is very different from mine and that she's just lashing out right now because she can't believe someone would hurt her baby girl AGAIN by walking away from the vows that he made.
talia, i have an appointment with a new therapist today and i'm hoping we have a good connection, because she's also a certified yoga instructor, so hopefully she could help me build that practice into my therapy.
that is a good idea about letting my H know i would stand up for him. i mean, i did stand up for him once before when he left and my family was ready to kick him to the curb...but i don't feel like i would DEFEND him to my family right now. i would defend my decisions and my right to decide what is best for me, and my right to work on my M if i so choose, but i don't know what i could honestly say to my family right now in defense of my H. yes, he's seeking the help of an IC. yes he's apologized. but he still left. AGAIN.
but THREE TIMES. am i the idiot for always letting him come back?
I think your name says it - not an idiot but someone with hope and love - that's awesome!
I totally get the fear side. Do you want to be 40 and have him leave again for good or for some woman who gets to him? I wouldn't have started my D stuff if my wife hadn't been saying that she wanted to leave when the kids grew up, telling me that someone was getting a house ready in another city, etc. I don't think she'll be saying that so often, but I can't guarantee she won't. My challenge, beyond love, is trust as well. I thought, 'I've stuck with this woman despite not feeling love, I've cared for her and her kids, I've tried to be happy with her and accept things, and here she is saying that SHE's leaving when I'm old and unlikely to remarry??'. Then I thought about what I did to cause her feeling this way. I'm trying as you are to change those. You didn't do that the first two times, if I understood right. I also didn't do enough to solve things.
So I figure, I am at least partly to blame. So I'll do what I can to make things actually work. If they do, I'm 80% sure I'll be in it for the long run. I can't say much for her, other than I expect at least 80% committment from her, too.
You're right. You don't have kids and a mortgage. You are almost 30, and many 40 year old women don't remarry (statistically speaking). So it is a bigger risk for you to stay because you have less to lose now.
As long as you are not giving in, what is the risk in trying it for another year or two? If it doesn't work, I'm guessing you'll know by then. ADHD = impulsivity and a mouth that is a bit loose. My W told me she loves that about me - that I don't choose (or can!) keep secrets from her. If I am not happy, I will say so. I think your H will too - just don't put the words in his mouth in a moment of anger(!)
You know that some of his issues are not going anywhere. He will keep going out. He will fear losing friendships and will forget you at times because what he enjoys isn't always the same. For me, it is (obviously) too much on the computer, but the feeling of being a good provider is a hard one to beat down - work can be overdone. You've mentioned the benefits, too. Maybe during your trip you could spend some time evaluating the faults as they are, and decide if you want (not can) accept them long-term. If you aren't happy and trying to change him, it might just cause more problems down the road.
Trust can be shown. He is separated. He goes out. Still, as far as you know, he isn't sleeping around. That is trust. He is being honest and telling you what he's thinking. That is trust.
Your mom may mean well (as does my dad), but if it is confusing you and hurting him, then something needs to change. Either he accepts being hurt, or you accept the confusion and issues of loyalty, or whatever. Your writings about the run ins are just that - run ins. Maybe an IC could start there...? Stand up for him like you would a very close friend, and you'll probably do well. While I believe Jesus was a prophet, maybe think, "what would Jesus do if someone was gossiping or attacking a person?"
but THREE TIMES. am i the idiot for always letting him come back?
I think your name says it - not an idiot but someone with hope and love - that's awesome!
well...as long as you're sure about that.
Maybe during your trip you could spend some time evaluating the faults as they are, and decide if you want (not can) accept them long-term. If you aren't happy and trying to change him, it might just cause more problems down the road.
this is a good thought. i don't want to just accept things about him that make me unhappy. because we both deserve more than that. definitely something to ponder while i'm hanging drywall next week.
Trust can be shown. He is separated. He goes out. Still, as far as you know, he isn't sleeping around. That is trust. He is being honest and telling you what he's thinking. That is trust. again, very true. he does trust me to confide in me and i also feel like i can confide in him...but that doesn't mean i am not terrified that he would just feel the need to separate again later down the road when things get bumpy (if we decided to reconcile).
also i did have a great lunch with my mom today. did not mention my H ONCE. so that was really nice, and i think she was able to see how much more open to talking i am when she's not telling me what a waste of space she thinks my H is.
planning some fun things while i'm in new orleans and looking forward to being out of all of this for a while. it will be good to see family and old friends and be able to step outside of my life here for a little bit. only 4 days left here before i take off!! not sure if i'll see my H or not before i go, but i did set up an appointment today with a new IC for me, i'll see her on friday. feeling good today. miss my H terribly, but otherwise feeling good.
I'm terrified too, but for the opposite reason. I wonder if later on as the kids grow up if I will re-evaluate and say goodbye. I don't ever want to put her through this, or me, again!! I figure, the important thing is now that I have advice, books, experience, etc., I need to make this choice a lifelong one as much as I can. It is still a risk, but isn't life full of risks?
Which risk are you more terrified of having:
- your H and you work things out and have an amazing few months or years, but then later he leaves,
- OR of going out and finding a new H but with him new problems that might lead to a different breakup, too (or not)
The first one has many advantages you know, the latter has a lot of uncertainty. To me with my excitement seeking brain, the latter is scary but intoxicating, even though I think logically it is the worst of the two.
OTM- i think you're right, life IS full of risks, i think i am more terrified of the first happening, that we'd reconcile and things would be great for a while, only to wind up back at this point later down the road (with a lot more at stake like family, house, etc.). for me right now, the idea of a new H or R with someone else doesn't really seem very exciting, and like you said, there's no guarantee i wouldn't have equally challenging problems in any future relationships.
my H texted me last night about how unhappy he was and how he wished he could take away the hurt he'd caused me. he also said he wished he was more "normal" and knew how he "should act" to be a better and more balanced man. i didn't know how to reply to that and i told him as much. again i know he was probably looking for some ENs to be met by me assuring him he was not a bad person, but i didn't do that. just said that normal was different for everyone and that only what we do moving forward counts.
he sees his IC today...i'm bothered that i am so sad that he's in such a bad emotional/mental place. obviously i love and care for him deeply and don't want to see him hurting but at the same time, this is a consequence of a decision HE made and i'm upset with myself that i'm not more angry. shouldn't i be furious? shouldn't i not give a rat's as$ how he's feeling right now? HE WANTED TO LEAVE. now he's feeling the repercussions and i'm feeling SAD for him?? at what point am i being overly compassionate and not putting my own ENs first? i feel like i am in a way better place than he is - mentally, emotionally, physically, even spiritually...but even still - why am i so worried that he's having such a hard time??
I wish I could meet your H on some ADHD board - I've felt that, too.
I don't know if it was EN...might have been an apology and request for time. Don't feel sad for him, be empathetic. Like the people you're helping on the weekend. Reach out, but not to cry, but to support. That's what a W or H does. Consider it a gift.
Valuing someone's EN doesn't mean anybody has to go last. Making tough choices is tough, and no one 'wins' every time. If you're worried, I'd argue that is your EN at work - you want to reach out and talk or something. Someone told me that it is hard to sit near someone, and want to hug, but you can't yet.
It is his consequence, as long as he's actively dealing with it, maybe just look forward to the weekend? You might need some time to deal with your first point - where your fears lay (in the M or the unknown)... Did you say you had a date with an IC yet?
i do have an appointment with an IC on friday. so hopefully talking to her on friday and then leaving for my trip on saturday will help me find some clarity and really examine what it is that i want...i have a whole week to think before returning to the real world of work and responsibility, and i'm thinking i may have to squeeze my yoga mat into my carry on.
i do try to offer him support when i can. in his texts last night, he did also thank me for my kind words and support. i guess i'm just wondering why i'm feeling empathetic towards someone i should be angry at right now. his choice turned my world upside down and here he is a few weeks later, reaching out to me - i could certainly turn him away, and i know many other people in my life who have no problem turning their backs on him, but i can't. and i don't understand why. maybe this is something to discuss with my IC.
where was he for me to reach out to when i was hurting and crying and in a bad place a few weeks ago? he was gone, he moved out, i was on my own, i did not have him to lean on. but now he needs to lean on me and i'm there for him...maybe not in the way he needs me to be, but i at least respond in a kind and supportive way. this has always been a problem for me, i can't express anger. i can't lash out and say mean things and tell him exactly where i think he can go. i don't even feel those things, though. i'm just thinking there must be something wrong with me if i'm not even wanting to lash out and be angry.
I don't think there is anything wrong with you.
When we care about somebody, even if they have not behaved well or have treated us badly, it is natural to feel *something* when you know they are having a hard time.
I do think this is where boundaries become very important. It is unreasonable to be used as an emotional sounding board by a WAS when they need support and be left to flounder when they are feeling okay.
It is a good thing both you and your H are in IC. IC is not a magic fix and is a very slow process. You cannot fix your H's issues and transgressions and he cannot fix yours. You both need to give one another space to do the individual work.
I understand the anger side of it. My H could have cared less when I was beyond hurt, shocked and a million other things. In fact, he became more cruel. But when he needed me and I wasn't there ASAP he got very angry.
It might take a while and a bit of trial and error but with the help of both your IC's, space, detachment and boundaries things might not seem so one sided and hazy.
TTA,
Everything you are feeling is PERFECTLY normal and you need to allow yourself to FEEL all of it. You SHOULD be mad and sad and frusterated and everything else. Its part of the natural grieving process. This is a good place to start in IC. D is just like a death and you need to honor the grieving process. Do some reading on the grieving process - it will help you make sense of what you are feeling and how NORMAL it all is. Don't allow yourself to deny those feelings - you need to honor them to process them.
I think your sadness for H is a clear sign of what a GOOD EMPATHETIC person you are. Don't beat yourself up for being that... its an excellent personal quality!! Just keep meeting your own EN's - and being civil to H. He does seem to be looking for you to meet his - and you just can't right now. Maybe you can think of it as lending money. A friend comes to you and is in desperate need to borrow some cash. You feel terrible for that person, understand their situation etc, but you simply do not have the extra money to give, so you say no. You would NEVER take out a loan yourself to give $ to that person, right? IF you had the extra cash you would, but you aren't going to put yourself at risk for them.... Now substitute your emotional well being with $. You only have enough "emotional cash" to pay your bills right now. You don't have any extra to lend to H. Does that make any sense??
Don't let yourself dwell on what H's communications "MIGHT" have been. You have no way of knowing. He probably doesn't even know yet what he is/isn't feeling. You need to protect your PMA. I'm not saying you can't give H more time- I think that time is your friend. But you keep getting advice to make decisions based on what H might be feeling and its WRONG. You make the best decision for you - EVERY TIME. No matter what your decision might do to H. Things will work out as they will. NOTHING you do/don't do with be the ONE THING that pushes him in any direction. You can see you are getting good results with the approach of being civil but distant and it IS good for you mentally.
You are GOING to miss him- that's natural. Just don't let the loneliness, fear and anxiety be the emotions that fuel your decisions - and NO mind reading. Do whats best for you first - the rest will come with time.
I TOTALLY agree with City girl!
Focus on your trip!!! Its a great GAL!!
T
talia i really like your comparison to giving a loan to someone when i didn't have the $$. makes A LOT of sense. i can't give my H what i don't have to give right now, but i can continue to at least be supportive and kind in my responses. that seems to be working at least in terms of his continued contact.
actually, my initial reaction to his texts last night was to try and figure out what he was thinking, but then i stopped myself and thought, what would talia say?
i do hear your continued advice that i stop trying to read his mind and i agree with you. in the defense of the poster who often offers his thoughts on what my H may be thinking or feeling, it has been very helpful for me to talk to someone who has ADHD and understand the way the ADHD brain operates - just because it gives me insight on how my H's brain works. i believe he merely means to offer me some insight, but i can assure you that i am working my hardest to make decisions based on what is best for ME, not based on what i think my H may be thinking.
i am really gearing up for my trip this week...i'm bringing my running shoes and my yoga matt so i can eat a few extra beignets and not feel too bad about it.
i'm glad to know my feelings are normal...i do plan to talk to my IC about them and hopefully she and i can make some sense of them!
i guess i'm just wondering why i'm feeling empathetic towards someone i should be angry at right now.
...
where was he for me to reach out to when i was hurting and crying and in a bad place a few weeks ago?
You neither should nor shouldn't be angry. If you are, you are - they're your emotions. I think many of us have had good and bad days. Holding on to anger or expecting it only makes matters worse. I think you've done well in holding off your anger - that's awesome!
Where was he...many on these boards have told you to GAL and whatever. Did you ever try to reach out and get his emotional support? Do you think he could when you have the boards and a life coach while he is just starting IC? You don't want to live your life this way, but in some regards I don't think this separation is a new one - it seems like part of last year's but this time you're solving it better.
He moved out. That was mean. He should've stayed to work it out. I think that. Now what have I/my wife been told by others...we've been told one of us needs to get out, unless someone is begging to come back to survive on our anger, ... all sorts of unhelpful junk.
Marriage isn't about the individual, it is about the couple together. You are loaning a good loan, not a bad one. So what if he has no money now, he's working to build it. It sounds very nice to the individual to not loan him until he's offering, but that isn't
necessarily the best way just because it feels empowering. Marriage isn't about individual power, is it?
TTA,
You have every right to ask "Where was he?" "Will he do this again?" "Is it worth the risk to try?" "Can I ever really trust him give his history of running?" You have every right to be angry because he wasn't there to support you. Don't feel like you have to be self sacrificing in this. HE made choices that devastated you - and there might be very valid reasons why he did it - but you STILL have the RIGHT to feel however you want to about it. You DON'T have to look at it from his perspective. You don't have to explain away your feelings by saying "Its ok... He wasn't capable of meeting my needs so I won't be angry".. You feel however you want - and know that is OK.
The best thing you can do is NOT bury those feelings. If you do - not matter what happens with H - they will bubble up later and cause you problems.
Don't you feel like you need to sacrifice yourself. Marriage is about two people forming a union. That should be EQUITABLE - not totally one sided. Until your situation with H is NOT one sided you need to "protect your assets". If H is REALLY "working to build it" he will be able to show you that over time. Right now - he has bad credit and is a big risk. Only time will tell if that improves.
I would suggest you talk to IC about some CLINICAL resources on ADHD and how that affects adults. I think you may get a great perspective that will help you put the ADHD stuff in line with the DB stuff. I'm afraid getting a perspective on ADHD anywhere else might be skewed. ADHD affects people in many ways and I think it will help you to get a run down of ALL the ways it can affect someone - so you have a full and balanced perspective.
HIJACK - OTM - Please do yourself, your wife, and everyone here a favor and go get some counseling. Talk to a professional about how to deal with your feelings and your issues with your wife. The core philosophy in Divorce Remedy is YOU MUST CHANGE. STOP worrying about what your wife is/isn't doing or how you might/would/should have handled the situation differently. Until you have a little more therapy, real divorce busting experience, and perspective - your advice is terribly mis-placed. Please go get some real help with this - you aren't helping yourself on here right now and I don't think your advice is Divorce Busting at its core. If you are going to be on these boards you need to stick to the core philosophy.
Have a great day!!! Sorry for the Hijack!
T
No one ever HAS to be angry.
thanks, talia. great advice. i do plan to talk to my new IC tomorrow about the way i'm feeling, which is very conflicted right now!
you would be proud, though...the only time i could see my H before leaving for 9 days is tomorrow. he asked if we could plan to meet up for drinks but i made plans with my girls instead to go see the new alice in wonderland movie (i'm sorry, but johnny depp wins EVERY TIME!!!), and i know he has plans with his dad and BIL tonight, so i'm really proud of my 180, because before i would have put plans with my girls aside to do something with my H.
plan to spend the evening down at the gym and then packing for my trip. i did get an email from H yesterday saying how much he appreciated my kindness and support throughout all of this and that he didn't understand how i could be that way towards him or why i wasn't fed up with him. at least he acknowledges that i could be fed up with him!! i didn't really know how to answer that so i just thanked him for noticing my efforts to be supportive and said it meant a lot to me for him to acknowledge that.
2 days left til my trip!
you aren't helping yourself on here right now and I don't think your advice is Divorce Busting at its core. If you are going to be on these boards you need to stick to the core philosophy.
And I don't think yours is either - congrats, we see eye to eye on something!
Maybe try an approach that ISN'T ALL IN CAPITALS OR RUDE TALIA!
OTM - Attacking people on here is not the point and is immature at best. My advice follows what we learned from the book. If yours did - I wouldn't' have a problem with you. Your advice goes directly against what the book recommends and that's not the point of these boards. You may not like my advice, but it falls right in line with what Divorce Remedy recommends. If you want to give your own relationship advice - perhaps you should create your own forum.
You again have missed the point of my communications. CAPS denote emphasis is blogging - not YELLING. Perhaps you should also read up on internet etiquette when it comes to blogging.
TTA -
I'M SUPER PROUD OF YOU!!! You are getting the results you WANT - Pat yourself on the back!!! H acknowledging how strong you are is a HUGE success. You should feel amazing going into your trip!
(((TTA)))
T
Wow - you just can't see your words.
So, so sad.
I kind of think marriage has to be about the individual first. Two unhealthy individuals can't have a healthy marriage. Wouldn't BOTH individuals have to be healthy in order to create and maintain a healthy union?
^^^^^^^ Wise Observation City Girl^^^^^^
Wow - you just can't see your words.
So, so sad.
This was rude. I hope you apologize for this post. Very poor taste.
I posted this in T's thread but will post it here as well
Talia there is no such thing as bad advice here. We all post advice. Its up to the individual to determine what course they wish to follow. Some of it we agree with. Some we do not.
This is a good chance for you to practice some of that DB stuff with OTM.
Validate and move on.
Both of you have your hearts in the right place.
TTA, I haven't read your thread yet, but I just want to add to what CB said - and he is a man I have an enormous amount of respect for.
AFAIK none of the people on the boards has any formal qualification in Relationship or any other type of Counselling.
Everyone will offer advice - and it WILL differ and it WILL be based on what works or doesn't from their perspective.
There is no right or wrong - and at the end of the day it's up to you. I'd like to think that we all all good people on the boards. We are the ones who care enough to want to save our R's.
Listen to what everyone advises, but DO what works for you.
I kind of think marriage has to be about the individual first. Two unhealthy individuals can't have a healthy marriage. Wouldn't BOTH individuals have to be healthy in order to create and maintain a healthy union?
i agree, city girl! thanks for the thoughtful words. i'm working on being the healthiest me i can be...maybe my H will get to a healthy point where he can work on our M, maybe he won't, i don't know. but right now, my health (mental, emotional, physical, spiritual) is my focus and all i can do is pray that my H gets to a better place...not just for the sake of our M but for his overall well being. i hate seeing him in such a low place, with or without me!
talia and everyone else...i SO appreciate that you all want to look out for me and want only the best advice to come through on my (and anyone else's!) thread! i can't tell you how great it feels to have so many people i've never even met looking out for me and standing behind me! i wouldn't say OTM has offered me any bad advice, because it's all been genuine and from his heart - whether or not it followed MWD's outline or not. but like blownaway said, how i use the advice is up to me. and like someone said to me on my thread before (i'm sorry i don't remember who!), we all take the advice we get here and tailor it to suit our own situations and needs. i appreciate ALL the advice i get here, even the advice i don't take.
so keep the advice coming, and thanks to everyone who came over from talia's thread to offer their two cents!
TTA,
I'm glad you will get some more perspective. I hope everyone understands what I'm trying to do. Empowering advice is good for everyone on here!!! We are all here because of the book and its important to stick in that realm - its what works!!!
I hope from this you will get more than just two people perspective's on your thread - the more the better!!
I'll do what I can to keep help coming your way - I would have given anything to have this kind of help this early in my situation!!!
Keep doing what works - its working for you!!
(((TTA)))
T
I hope everyone understands what I'm trying to do.
Talia,
I might not agree, but having you here has helped TTA, so that's great~
I have
no problem with disagreements. 2x4s on
my thread about me, I can take, although just as an attack doesn't help with my W, I don't see how it help me, either, in a constructive way.
On someone else's thread, I really don't need to be told that "advice is terribly mis-placed" or "Your advice goes directly against what the book recommends" or "perhaps you should create your own forum".
I
do apologize though. On this thread or any other, I am trying to be a better person and I should have ignored the words that basically came to shut up, get lost, or say it the way I see it. I'm here to improve and to see other POVs, including yours, whether writing or reading.
O.K., now that that is all squared away ...
TTA, what is going on?
T asked me to stop over... And since T is a good friend.... So I have read your entire thread. I will post questions in the next post.
Here are a few things that stand out.
We are both 30, been married only 2 years.
Diagnosed with adult ADHD, attended counseling on his own and eventually the 2 of us together.
I pursued him, seeking assurance of his love, he withdrew.
which scared me so I began seeking assurance. Nothing really resolved,
didn't have it in him to fight for us anymore
but he says it should be "easier" for us to solve conflict without the breakups
i have NEVER initiated a breakup
and he felt that his own apartment would allow him the space to get some rest and be able to focus on this new job.
H currently is not on meds for ADHD
but he does drink a lot
so, my H emailed today and said he has an appt with an IC on Wednesday. i think it's a good sign that he's willing to admit he needs to talk to someone - especially without me suggesting it. he said his mother has insisted that he should be seeing someone, but at least he hasn't felt that pressure from me.
especially when i feel like we go through this breakup thing every 12-18 months.
i miss him soooooo much. it gets harder and harder every day to keep up my hope and optimism.
and he felt that his own apartment would allow him the space to get some rest and be able to focus on this new job.
Just wanted to point out the this below was beautiful
sorry if i'm rambling. seeing him today just sent me over the moon in love with him again, seeing him smile, seeing him cry, wanting to reach across the table and hold his hand...and now i'm sitting alone at the table where we used to share dinner and talk about our days and he is not here and he is not coming here, no matter how badly i wish or hope or pray he comes...he is not coming. not tonight and not for many other nights. maybe later on, all i can do is be the best me i can and find my own happiness in the meantime...but it doesn't take away any of the hurt of being alone tonight.
i'm doing my best to give him space and still let him know i'm around.
if you know you're going to get upset, why would you ask? anyway,
all i can do is show him my best self because i can't make up his mind for him.
but it's a lot easier when he's distant and unfeeling as opposed to when he's crying about how lost and alone he feels. does that make sense?
what is the "it?" hmmm. the it is the cycle of our relationship, where we are fine and dandy and happy as clams for a few months, maybe even half a year or more, and then i begin to feel like i get less and less of his attention and focus, i let him know i need more and that i'm not feeling loved, and he responds with "nothing i ever do makes you happy."
i know i should stop trying to understand every little thing he says or does. i know i should focus more on my EN's than his.
my mom tells me that even if we worked things out, i could expect him to want to leave off and on for the rest of our lives.
i understand the concern about the "mind reading." it helps me try to gauge where we are, and i know that despite what he says, he may be feeling something entirely different.
i did cry when i got off the phone with him. i've been longing for him to say that to me for over a month and he just said it out of the blue. it took me a full ten seconds to take it in and then respond. i never doubted that he loves me.
.i'd probably have thrown myself at his feet without the things i've learned from all of you on this site!
had a really nice time with my H tonight. we met for a drink and talked for a while like we were just on a date, nothing really about our R until a bit later in the night.
e did not talk about D, or really even being separated at all. he talked about how much he misses me and how he wants to get to a better place mentally before making any big decisions. but this is what DB is all about, right? just slowing down the talk and the idea of moving towards D?
you know what her response was? an APOLOGY. a genuine, heartfelt apology. i wish i could have seen my face. it felt GOOD to set that boundary! i should have been doing this years ago!
when he wanted to separate back in 2008, he started seeing a counselor. i watched and waited. he proved through his actions that things would be different. and now i'm in this place again.
especially when i feel like we go through this breakup thing every 12-18 months.
i know i am trying to mind read or interpret his emails and that i need to stop. but at the same time,
last time we reconciled, it was all about talk. talk talk talk. he wrote me these amazing letters and bowled me over with promises to be a better man and do this and that and i believed it all. his actions backed up his words for about 2 months before he slowly started slipping back into his old behaviors...spending less and less time with me, more time at work, more time with his buddies, drinking more, going out more...so, i guess what i'm saying is that even IF we did decide to work on the M, i don't even know HOW i would go about learning to trust this man again.
if it's true this is a cylce that will only continue to repeat itself, how much of myself do i want to invest in this R?
I kind of think marriage has to be about the individual first. Two unhealthy individuals can't have a healthy marriage. Wouldn't BOTH individuals have to be healthy in order to create and maintain a healthy union?
That makes sense, CityGuil...but if your spouse isn't healthy, then do you leave/ignore them until they are healthy? Do you just try to understand their POV considering their issues, or take it at face value?
Reading all that. I think coach summed it up on Page 8.
What is the "it"? What's the same conversation? This is what you 180. You change and the dynamic changes.
My thoughts. Even a blind man can tell when he is walking in the sun.
I find it interesting that your H deploys some very passive aggressive controlling techniques on you and you may not realize it. An example would be contacting you around when you were moving. All his actions to open up with you always happen when you are doing something for yourself. Just enough to keep you in the place where he wants you to be.
Same now with your trip... He builds up the contact. Just enough.
You have mentioned that you deploy control with anger. A very wise good friend described anger to me like it was holding a ball underwater. It eventually must surface.
Now my questions.
Did the anger and control feel like a ball underwater ?
What is the history of your H's previous relationships ?
Do you feel that your H is a
narcissist ? Is the 2 months when your back together like first 2 months you were together?
What drove you apart the last 3 times?
What drove you apart the first time ?
What have you noticed so far that works ? ( I can see it reading the whole stitch )
What have you noticed so far that does not work ?
Thats all my questions for now.
I am going to offer the advice that you do not see him before you leave. Nor contact him. Just leave. And do not contact him at all while your away. Throw yourself into your life. And when your away take some time to think about LRT. Think about how you are always reacting. You may think you are controlling but I think you are wrong here. I think it is the other way around.
I find it interesting that your H deploys some very passive aggressive controlling techniques on you and you may not realize it. An example would be contacting you around when you were moving.
As someone with ADHD too, I think that is a fear reaction when we realize the attention lack might be leading to something that could be bad, but we are unsure. 'Reach out and test the waters' kind of thing. It looks and feels passive-agressive, but for me at least, it is often reactionary. Not very helpful to a R, I'm sure!
CB, do you think that is something to deal with if TTA gets as far as MC, or is there a way to prompt him (and me!) to deal with it before reconciling?
Trytryagain I am catching up on your thread and look forward to seeing you turn into a success story! I hope you are having fun on your trip!
(I hope it is supposed to be a fun trip and not for a funeral or something- I need to read!)
OK
I am being bold here but let me say this- ADHD is NOT schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. You can still tell the difference between right and wrong even when you have ADHD. My best friend in the world has ADHD and so do some family members. I have other experiences working with kids and adults with ADHD. It doesn't go away but people who have it are aware of the rules and how to treat people; even though it is AFTER they said or did something wrong! So my best friend does not repeatedly insult her husband/burn dinner/leave keys in her car/not finish helping her daughter with her homework...she MANAGES herself with routines and plans and intentions.
I really hope this isn't too offensive. I am just being honest and don't want you to excuse poor treatment because your H has ADHD.
WOW. so much to say in response to all the posts since i've last signed on! thanks so much to all of you for stopping by and lending an ear to my situation.
to start, newmama, i know what you're saying about ADHD. the difference between your best friend and my H is that she MANAGES her adhd. my H is a self-medicator (drinking, smoking pot) and often allows his ADHD to manage HIM. i know ADHD isn't an excuse for treating someone poorly. but my H doesn't seem to have a grip on his the way your best friend has on hers. and it makes for a very complicated and often tumultuous R!
CB -
Did the anger and control feel like a ball underwater ?
Not really, no. The anger goes as quickly as it comes for me and usually turns itself into sadness rather than festering below the surface.
What is the history of your H's previous relationships ?
H dated around a lot prior to us getting together and I think had one serious relationship before me. She cheated on him. His parents divorced when he was a baby and continue to loathe one another to this day (30 years later!!!).
Do you feel that your H is a narcissist ?
I think he can demonstrate narcissistic qualities, but even since our last split in 2008, he's worked hard to be a better person in that sense. Prior to the split he frequently put himself before me...after getting back together we had a much more solid partnership.
Is the 2 months when your back together like first 2 months you were together?
The first 2-3 months we were back together after our 2008 split was better than when we first got together. It was amazing. And we actually just had a pretty awesome summer together. Motorcycle road trips, a week in Montreal...it was like dating for the first time all over again!
What drove you apart the last 3 times?
Impulsive decisions on his part that we were better off apart.
What drove you apart the first time ?
We were actually planning to move in together but he got overwhelmed with work, graduating from college, his family putting pressure on him, and the idea of such a big commitment, so...he broke up with me quite out of the blue.
What have you noticed so far that works ? ( I can see it reading the whole stitch )
Not pressuring him and letting him come to his own conclusions seems to work. Being supportive and just letting him know I'm around but not overly available. Being there for him when he feels like no one else is. Showing him that I don't NEED him in my life but I want to have him around. Gaining some indpendence for myself and seeking my own path to happiness.
What have you noticed so far that does not work ?
I don't really find that NC works very well. I respond when he sends me a message but I rarely initiate contact. Anger and resentment do not work. Making him feel like he is to blame does not work.
CB, i actually will NOT see him before i leave. i have movie plans with my girls tonight and have an early flight tomorrow so no time to meet up with him, anyway. he wants to find some time to talk on the phone before i go so he can wish me safe travels, etc., but i actually have a pretty full day today. i get what you are saying about passive-aggressive/manipulation and i've actually had that at the back of my mind as a warning to myself to tread lightly and not let myself get too caught up with what he says/does. i can see how it would look like he wants to keep just enough contact to make him feel like i'm right there if he needs me...and i don't know if that's the case or not, but all i can control is my responses to him, right? i'm not jumping to see him or canceling my plans so that i can meet up with him instead of my friends.
thanks again for all the supportive and thoughtful posts.
one more day til i'm nola bound!!
That makes sense, CityGuil...but if your spouse isn't healthy, then do you leave/ignore them until they are healthy? Do you just try to understand their POV considering their issues, or take it at face value?
No, I don't think leaving or ignoring is the answer (aside from abuse) if one spouse isn't healthy. I do think in many cases it only takes one to change the dynamic and perhaps that will help lead BOTH spouses to growth.
Sadly this usually only happens after the fact when one spouse has shut down and checked out.
good point, CG. i'm working on getting to the healthiest mental/emotional/physical/spiritual place i can get to...i wouldn't say my H has "checked out" entirely at this point. he was much more checked out about a month ago, when he moved out. i think after seeing how well i was doing, he started following my lead, but is still only in the very VERY early stages of working on his own mental/emotional health.
like newmama said earlier, the ADHD isn't just going to go away and he'll become a new person. but hopefully with time and professional help, my H can learn to manage his ADHD. certainly i don't believe he should be left/ignored because he's not "healthy," but i also can't take any of the steps towards getting healthy FOR him. that has to come from HIM.
Sorry, my screen went nuts...
I think it is very easy to say you have examined your spouses POV but have you (general you) *really* done that? Jeff made a comment that really stuck with me. Often times we only examine our spouses POV through our own lens and our lenses are clouded with our own thoughts and ideas.
I also think that many people simply cannot accept their spouses for what they are. As you said, your W has cultural expectations that you cannot meet, understand or agree with. Do you really think those will change? If they do change will there always be some form of resentment? Obviously I can't answer that question.
My H, two years later is still very much a WAS. We have not lived together for 2 years. He has been with OW for 2 years. We have been legally separated for four months and there is not one conversation that goes by where he doesn't say at least five times "I can't be married anymore". Um, yes, I sort of gathered that. There is nothing more I can do to change that dynamic nor do I care to put any additional effort towards that goal. I could ask him what color the sky is and his response would be "blue but I still can't be married anymore".
I don't ignore him per say but he and I have very little contact because I see no reason to listen to the same stuff I have heard for two years. Our emotional connection has been severed, our marriage dissolved by the law, assets divided and so on. To keep going round and round, for ME, is not productive.
So I take him at face value because it is what it is. I do see very clearly how stagnant he has remained in any sort of personal growth. He feels R should not be work. I won't ever change that opinion. OW has not changed that opinion. So I accept it and that is that. But I also know for ME that would not be a healthy dynamic.
TTA,
I havent' had a chance to read the advice you've gotten since yesterday!! I'm glad everyone came over. I hope it helps
Have a fabulous trip!!!! Forget about the craziness of your life right now and just enjoy the wonderful experience of serving others. I am sure it will be wonderful!!
Last Hijack - I promise...
OTM - I hope this helps you too! I WANT to see everyone here succeed in saving their relationships. I would post on your thread but I can't seem to find you. I hope you will take note of the vets here and see some good things you can do to help yourself. Remember - everyone here is hard on people because they care - its not personal!!!
T
It is interesting you mentioned his parents had a nasty divorce. Did your MC deal with that at all (if his parents' D affects his ability to commit without expected to eventually fail?)
i think after seeing how well i was doing, he started following my lead, but is still
Seems very true - keep up the great work when you get back from a great week of helping others. Just a thought...maybe going "dark" from this blog and your husband for the first couple days might help you focus. Going to Retro for a few days without a computer is going to be a strange feeling because I'm always connected. It might be very good for a R, though...
I saw a Mike Holmes (house fixing guy on TV) doing a N.Orleans thing - you're going to need some sleep! Don't foget to get some~
Screen Problems Might Be: If you're using Internet Explorer 8, you need compatibility mode on (the box with a broken page next to refresh)
You mentioned culture, were you talking about TTA?\
Looking at others POV is hard, that is probably why I've often talked about "how do you think he sees it?". Not mind reading, just trying to see the other side. I've heard a phrase, 'make 73 excuses for your brother'. While responsibility always need be first, the excuses make it easier (for me) to look at someone's reason when I'm convinced I already know that answer. Easier doesn't mean I do it nearly enough!
Sorry to hear about your sitch CG, but I have a feeling that all of us on these boards in our own ways are or have learned a lot about moving on if it comes to that. Your next R will likely be much stronger for your dedication now.
ADHD was mentioned by NewMama...I'm off and on using meds, but one thing many adults know is that years of problems as children make one both stronger, and also more easily hurt by certain things. The POV thing/understanding for you TTA is a good thing, I think, because it helps know what buttons you can push to get the idea that change is needed. My W knows many of my buttons for good, but rarely uses them. I know she knows them, because when she uses them I tell her~ Frankness is definately a mixed bag of goodies with ADHD!
I find it interesting that your H deploys some very passive aggressive controlling techniques on you and you may not realize it. An example would be contacting you around when you were moving.
As someone with ADHD too, I think that is a fear reaction when we realize the attention lack might be leading to something that could be bad, but we are unsure. 'Reach out and test the waters' kind of thing. It looks and feels passive-agressive, but for me at least, it is often reactionary. Not very helpful to a R, I'm sure!
CB, do you think that is something to deal with if TTA gets as far as MC, or is there a way to prompt him (and me!) to deal with it before reconciling?
I feel that this would be one of top issues to work on and resolve. It would be part of breaking the cycle. Passive aggressive behaviours are very damaging. And its something a man needs to learn to stop doing them.
Passive Aggressive behaviours counter taking full responsibility for your relationship. Your countering your feelings and fearing your wife and hiding out to avoid issues at home.
Think of it this way.
"Compassion for my family trumps my need to be right"
"I speak my mind in spite of my fear of confrontation" Quotes from Wayne M. Levine.
If you have not read the book Hold on to your NUTS by Wayne M Levine please do. There is a chapter called Silence the little boy. Here we call it setting boundaries and expressing how you feel. But the goal is the same. Learning what your core values are and enforcing them. Be true to your feelings. Never be afraid to express them. Never apologize for your feelings.
VS.
I cannot talk about this she "nags" me so I am going to be silent. Withhold intimacy. Call her names, control her. ETC ( what ever the person does )...
This is a 180 that you can work on and her H can work on. ADHD or not. We all have our coping skills that we deploy. He needs to be taught different coping skills.
Right now its.
ALL NEW >> COMPLACENCY >> DEPLOY PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE TENDENCIES >> tta countering >> FLIGHT >> SILENCE >> ALL NEW >> COM.....
tta needs to attack complacency and passive aggressive tendencies to break the cycle. And this cycle happens very quickly between them. Which I agree with her Mother on.
Screen Problems Might Be: If you're using Internet Explorer 8, you need compatibility mode on (the box with a broken page next to refresh)
You mentioned culture, were you talking about TTA?\
Thank you for the tip! (RE: compatibility mode). It worked. This has been driving me crazy for some time as I can't use the quote feature. Now I can! And yes, I was talking to you about the culture issue, sorry I was not clear.
Looking at others POV is hard, that is probably why I've often talked about "how do you think he sees it?". Not mind reading, just trying to see the other side. I've heard a phrase, 'make 73 excuses for your brother'. While responsibility always need be first, the excuses make it easier (for me) to look at someones reason when I'm convinced I already know that answer. Easier doesn't mean I do it nearly enough!
You are correct, it is very hard to really see things from the other side. And once can't truly attempt to see things from the other side if they (you, me) have already decided what is right or wrong. I used to tell my H all the time (pre-bomb) when he hurt my feelings. He always said "well, they shouldn't be hurt". Yeah, to you they should not be hurt but it doesn't mean they are not! That was a huge issue for us. If he said something shouldn't be, well, that was that.
Sorry to hear about your sitch CG, but I have a feeling that all of us on these boards in our own ways are or have learned a lot about moving on if it comes to that. Your next R will likely be much stronger for your dedication now.
Thanks. I am actually doing quite well with the occasional setback. I am in no hurry to get in another R but I do date very casually from time to time.
It is interesting you mentioned his parents had a nasty divorce. Did your MC deal with that at all (if his parents' D affects his ability to commit without expected to eventually fail?)
no, that issue never really came up for us in MC. he was too young when his parents split to remember them even being together. but they hate each other with a PASSION and it's caused a lot of problems for my H (and his sister) as they continued to scrap with each other as he got older (and even now). however, both his parents are long since remarried, with children from the new marriages and they are both in stable(ish), solid marriages.
tta needs to attack complacency and passive aggressive tendencies to break the cycle. And this cycle happens very quickly between them. Which I agree with her Mother on.
CB, what do you mean by that? how do you suggest that i attack complacency and passive aggressive tendencies?
and when you say you agree with my mother, do you mean you think it would happen again no matter what?
My thoughts. Even a blind man can tell when he is walking in the sun.
I find it interesting that your H deploys some very passive aggressive controlling techniques on you and you may not realize it. An example would be contacting you around when you were moving. All his actions to open up with you always happen when you are doing something for yourself. Just enough to keep you in the place where he wants you to be.
Same now with your trip... He builds up the contact. Just enough.
You have mentioned that you deploy control with anger. A very wise good friend described anger to me like it was holding a ball underwater. It eventually must surface.......
I am going to offer the advice that you do not see him before you leave. Nor contact him. Just leave. And do not contact him at all while your away. Throw yourself into your life. And when your away take some time to think about LRT. Think about how you are always reacting. You may think you are controlling but I think you are wrong here. I think it is the other way around.
Wise Wise words my friend!! P.S..... This is the largest post I've seen you pen... Thank you for your insight here...
TTA - I think CB is making VERY valid points here. He's articulated what I've meant when I keep telling you that H is looking to have is EN's met by you. This is a perfect example of that. I'm glad you are leaving early in the morning and I'm glad you didn't re-arrange your schedule to see H. While you are gone It will be good to take a break from this... but also to muse a little on the idea of being less reactionary - how can you take control of your situation when it comes to H? I'm not sure what the right answer to that is - I think its something you need to feel out for yourself.
Listen to CB, He knows his stuff!!
T
tta needs to attack complacency and passive aggressive tendencies to break the cycle. And this cycle happens very quickly between them. Which I agree with her Mother on.
CB, what do you mean by that? how do you suggest that i attack complacency and passive aggressive tendencies?
and when you say you agree with my mother, do you mean you think it would happen again no matter what?
I agree with your mother on the recycling of your relationship. She is speaking with wisdom and love here.
As for attacking. You need to really analyze the patterns and write it out. And then come up with some alternate solutions. And perhaps one day will be given the opportunity to have a very open and candid conversation with your H about this and how he needs to get help on this issue.
If not you will at least have learned some new skills for the future.
This book really helped me with releasing.
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0738213284?tag=myblo0cb-20
[quote=chatterbug]
tta needs to attack complacency and passive aggressive tendencies to break the cycle. And this cycle happens very quickly between them. Which I agree with her Mother on.
Hi TTA - I hope you aren't reading this yet, so you can really benefit from being at your other home in the south...but if you are, hope everything is going well~
I'm copying from my thread a couple ideas I got from Retrouville I thought might be something to consider. Before that, I want to say 100% if your husband is afraid to go, I can offer my email address to you if he has questions. Having seen 2 couples that remind me of your story (except the ADHD), I am sure now more than ever you can make it work IF you and he want to.
Anyhow:
"It wasn't an opposite approach that DB, but it works very well with my POV here on the blog. I believe that the emotional state of myself and my W was a critical component that needs mending.
Lots of the advice here is about GAL or to detatch. RV is not about that at all. In fact, it is against it in one way.
The idea of GAL/detatching is that you work on you, ignoring the other. RV tells us that we GAL to attach, not to detach emotionally to the spouse.
I'm now seeing the idea of GAL as written in DB, I think, more as the author intended it. When a S leaves, you need to not attach ONE sided to a spouse (cling, pursue), but rather find ways to attach together. In many situations here, the other spouse is out of the picture, so this might not be possible.
Detatchment might be to allow healing and growth from the experience.
At some point though, I think both spouses might get into piecing, and that is where RV has it's impact. It also might make some couples ready to patch up their marriage and deal with the hurt and trust issues.
Instead of saying, you hurt me and now you need to make ME trust you, RV seems to be (so far) saying that I need to find reasons to trust YOU by communicating together in safe, controlled emotional ways.
There are things we have to do at home, though, and with patience and prayer, I hope I can do it and more at home at a slower pace for her.
I'm still in a 'shell-shocked' mode, having a real emotional rollercoaster. I also felt a few moments of love, something I am now sure I have NEVER felt for my W until now.
So it was worth it. Anyone reading - consider going. It will hurt much, much more if a D happens. But it will be worth it because I really feel I have truly tried every approach.
DB: Work on me
Book reading: Communication, understanding her POV and history
RV: The emotional connection."
I hope this gives you more hope.
I know the majority of the advice is to GAL, and I'm not saying don't because your H is still away. I'm saying that GAL makes you "married singles", and I now believe that there are limits that are important to a marriage one can't pass when they are trying to break connections.
Your H knows he needs and loves you. For you, the RV weekend might be best for you both to share your emotions each day while you are separated, and eventually together.
OTM,
I have never been to RV and I don't really understand what you are trying to Communicate in your post above specifically to TTA. I do however appreciate your feedback of RV - it is a really great program.
I think there might be a core issue missing here. RV concepts are centered around two spouses WILLING to work on the M. That is totally different than what DR addresses - when ONE spouse is willing and the other is not.
RV advice is great - when applied at the right time. In most of the situations in the newcomers forum it is not the right time. RV concepts may do more harm than good if not applied with the right timing.
Remember - right now most of the folks on here have a partner that is NOT willing to work on the relationship - that means that the concepts of an "emotional connection" you are describing from RV is not applicable.
I think your advice to TTA to go to RV is wonderful - I am a big fan of their program! It just might be too early yet - her H isn't there... he needs to be willing to work on the M - by HIS declaration. Otherwise any request to go to RV or any other type of couples counseling is considered pursuing.
This thing works in stages - and timing is everything!!!
T
Not so much willing to work, but willing to come. Quite a few of the couples had one spouse that went but had been or were unwilling to work. By the end of the w/end, they don't having things all solved, but many of them have the desire to continue the RV program.
If a partner doesn't want to go, of course nothing will get them there. If they go wanting it to fail and refuse to do any of the activities, of course they will get nowhere that day.
hello, hello, i am FINALLY back home!!
it was a long, exhausting, frustrating, rewarding, wonderful, fulfilling, amazing, sad weekend. so hard to see the devastation that still haunts the lower 9th ward in new orleans, especially the incredible number of houses that are boarded up and still stand empty as they were left when the levees broke back in 2005. i pushed myself outside of my comfort level on so many occassions and only felt rewarded in return. i cut, laid and grouted an entire tile floor! i designed, laid and grouted tile around a fireplace! i met new people, i flirted (!!!!) with someone in my group, i recharged my batteries and i am so SO glad that i went. it was an amazing experience and i loved every minute. i'm only shocked that it went by so quickly.
things have gone well with my H since i left. he continued to send tender messages, some of which i responded to, some of which i didn't. i did not see him before i left and just got back today, so it's been about 2 weeks since i've seen him face to face. i know he had a hard time while i was away and hit some really low emotional points, but all i could do was say i was sorry he was feeling that way and leave him to sort out his own feelings. he must have had a revealing session with his IC while i was away, because he said he'd come to a lot of realizations about his behavior and his patterns, and even asked if i would consider going to see a MC together when i got back.
it actually made me mad when he said that...when i asked him back in january, he was done doing work on us and had no interest. i know i should want to jump for joy that he suggested he may be ready now, but it really upsets me that i've had to wait until he was ready. i let him know that, but told him i would think about seeing someone together. i still haven't really decided. i know this is supposed to be what i want, but now that he's asked i find myself angry that when i suggested it i got shot down. still working through my feelings on that issue.
my mom today told me to just cut my losses and move on, because my H isn't capable of real love. i did spend a lot of time while i was hammering and grouting and painting trim thinking about what i really want...but still don't feel like i have a sense of clarity on that.
i wonder if my H would be open to something like RV now that he's suggested MC. i think his new IC is really helping him open some doors that are helping him really better understand himself. yesterday i got a message from him about how he finally realized he needed to make a lot of changes in order to be in a healthy relationship and he'd never been ok with changing himself before.
so, while i do feel great about the last week at home and the time i spent away, i don't really feel like i have a clear idea of what i want moving forward. but i laughed a lot. my heart broke a hundred times. i did things i never thought i would be able to do. i let strangers get to know me and i got to know strangers. i journaled, i took a ton of photos, i saw old friends and i ate about 10 pounds of crawfish.
i feel good. and that's all that i need right now.
hope you all had a good week while i was away, i need to catch up on some threads!!!
TTA - WELCOME BACK!!!!
More later....
T
thanks, talia! i've missed my friends on here!!
may meet up with my H tonight or tomorrow. much to tell him about my trip, and i know he wants to talk about the possibility of us trying MC in the near future. i guess i am ok with giving it a shot, after all, i'm here to DB, right? it doesn't even mean either of us is saying, ok, we want to work this out...i think for both of us it's more like seeing where things could go. but at least he's gotten to a point in his mind where he could even bring up the topic of MC.
it's weird because i miss him...but i don't miss him. this morning when i woke up, i was sure he was next to me in bed, but then when i realised he wasn't, i wasn't overwhelmed with grief the way i have been in the past. not sure if that means i'm moving forward or just moving on.
one thing i know, is this whole R is just not on my mind to the extent that it was a few weeks ago. it gets in the way of my GAL!
Hi,
http://youtu.be/Ygw2atdTA7k?a This video from Michelle struck a cord (2min) so I thought I'd pass the link on if you hadn't seen it already...
thanks for the link, OTM. i'm at work now but i'll definitely check it out later when i have some privacy.
met up with my H last night for dinner. it feels like it's been forever since i've seen him. we started off with small talk, asked about each other's families, jobs, that kind of stuff. later on we talked about the phone conversation we'd had last week where he'd asked me about us seeing a counselor together and i sort of told him off. he said i was right about everything i'd said, that no one had ever held him accountable for anything he'd ever done and he'd never had to take any real responsibility for his own actions. he said he didn't like the person he'd become over the last 10 years and he wanted to change but didn't know how or if he even could. he also said he didn't believe he was worth the things he'd put me through and that i'd be crazy to try and work things out with him.
what i wanted to do was soothe and assure him, tell him he was wrong, he was worth the fight, all those things that my gut wanted to say to make him feel better. but i didn't. he said, you deserve to be with someone who will love you unselfishly, not like i have, and i just looked him in the eye and said, i know. he said he is very proud of how i've handled myself and that i've done so much soul-searching and even found it within myself to reach out to others in need during a time when i was in need myself. sadly...no one else has told me they were proud. my family has said they were happy i had been able to do it, but no one else has said they were proud.
on top of all of this, my mom's 60th birthday is on sunday. she drove me to an appointment yesterday and started sobbing in the car about how she was going to be 60, and the one thing she wants most - grandchildren - is the one thing she can't have (my sister broke off an engagement over a year ago and has no real "marriage prospects" at the moment, and well, look where i am). i tell you, i could have crumbled under the weight of that pressure. nothing like your mother making you feel like a failure after coming back from a service trip where you thought you were making a difference.
so, i don't know if we will seek MC together or not. my H seems to be in a really low place, especially if he can say he's not worth it and i deserve better. of course part of me feels like that's just a cop out...but, i don't know. he left me in tears and he did a fair amount of crying last night. i know all i can do at this point is just let him go, but knowing it and doing it are 2 different things.
i did buy my H a book yesterday, called Switch: How to Change When Change is Hard. I started reading the first few chapters and oddly enough, the authors quote MWD and mention her book, DB. funny that. hopefully he'll read it...when i gave it to him, he said he had been on the verge of downloading the audiobook the night before.
sigh. WHERE IS THAT DANG EASY BUTTON WHEN YOU NEED IT??!?!
TTA, good job handling yourself in that convo with H! You didn't rescue and that's huge.
I know moms can guilt us so easily but you should DB her. Listen and validate, "I understand how you could feel that way." Remember that it's her issue and you can't control or fix it.
Establish some boundaries and maintain them. "Mom, I understand that you're feeling sad right now. As you know, things are difficult for me right now. I need to focus on myself and my marriage and cannot even think about children at this time. I like spending time with you and talking with you but I will no longer talk about children. If you continue to bring it up I will excuse myself."
As a happily childfree person, I declared early on that I was not going to have children and at the time my mom was fine with it because her standard line was "You know I'm too young to be a grandmother." As the years went by she told me that I would change my mind when I met the right person. I set her straight and let her know that it was not going to happen and I would simply not talk to her anymore if she continued to bring it up. I'm not sure if she believes me now but it hasn't been discussed since then, many years ago.
Welcome back. Tell us about the trip. And good job on not saving. Some times we have to love from afar.
thanks, pearl. i try to DB with my mom, but she makes it so hard. i feel like an UTTER FAILURE that i am ruining her happy life because i don't have any children and she's going to be dead by the time i do. i mean, i'm not even 30!! just because she was married for ten years by the time she was my age doesn't mean that i have to follow in her footsteps. my mom just doesn't seem to understand a world in which there is something a woman wants out of life OTHER than having lots and lots of babies.
got an email from my H this afternoon, he is in a low, low place. i wish i could help him out of it but i know i can't do anything but listen. he did say he had another IC session today and wasn't up to going back to work afterwards. i hope he doesn't let himself lose his job over this...cause i still depend on his income, too. awful as that sounds. this is the first time i've ever seen a personal problem affect his work and professional life so much...
my trip was incredible. i wrote a bit more about it, i think it's on page 37 of my thread. i met some really great people and did a lot of really hard work. but it felt so good to be home again, i came home feeling (exhausted!!) and totally refreshed.
it's so hard to break myself from the saving cycle...every time he cries out, i want to hold him and quiet his tears. in reality, he brought all of this on himself with his actions, but i'm still overcome with the desire to be there for him, even though i know there's nothing i can do...
i'm sitting down in the lobby of my building, hitting up the free wi-fi and just sort of people watching. a young couple i know in the building just walked in with their dog...they are getting married in a few months and it suddenly struck me that that's not my life anymore. i'm not in love and engaged or an over the moon newlywed...i can wish and hope, but it's not going to change that my whole life is changed because of a decision my H made. i am very much in love with a man who didn't want to live with me anymore, so he moved out. i buy groceries for 1 again, and it's up to me to walk the dog before work every morning. i don't have a husband at home anymore to share my day with, to laugh about something funny that happened at work, or to call and vent to when my mother makes me nuts. what happened to that man? where is my husband?
i cried myself to sleep last night, which i haven't done in a while. it actually felt good to cry, because i feel like i've been so busy GAL-ing lately that i haven't allowed myself any time or space to deal with my feelings. i'm hurting. i miss my H. i miss my married life. i keep on, i get through the day and i can smile and laugh and be happy without him. but i still have to answer questions from friends and family about where he is, or how he is...and i just hate having to say...i don't know.
TTA,
You are doing great!!! I'm really really proud of you!! Keep it up - you are handling this right. I know its hard and I know your emotions are a daily struggle. If you keep honoring them the way you are and working with the DB stuff, you are going to be just fine!
Now tell us more about your trip!!!
T
Is it possible your old husband is partly gone for good - if what he told you is correct, he's dealing with some real bad stuff that screwed him up when he was a kid.
In Retrou, they reminded us that much of how we act today in a relationship is based on how we were raised up. MWD says that, too.
Maybe "good riddance" to the old H. Give the man some, but not endless, time to become a new and better H for you. The one thing he has been sure of it seems is that he loves you. If he loves you as much as it seems, he will return unless he feels you do not love him.
Does he have to do that alone? Why not ask him if it doesn't make sense. Not begging, just ask him why he feels now (not a month ago) that the independence is needed. I found sharing how I felt with my W helped me solve problems, not just get things off my chest. Hearing her helped even more.
Only do what you think will help...
OTM, i think i get what you are saying. my H seems to struggle with the person he's become and says that he doesn't like who he is now and that he wants to change. i do say good riddance to the old H, but how long do you give someone to find their way before you call it quits? i know he loves me...and i love him. but to hear him say he's not worth it - even if it's just him baiting me, it kills me to hear that. he knows how i feel. he knows i'm around, but he also knows i'm not going to wait forever.
i do understand that he needs to work on himself before he could devote anything to our M, otherwise any counseling efforts would be disingenuious. i know that the last 30 years of his life have formed him into who he is now...a person he does not want to be. but will it take 30 years for him to turn that around?? our family backgrounds are very different, and our experiences growing up are very different. is that an excuse for his repetitive fleeing behavior? i don't know...i don't think so. i can see how it would influence your behavior in a relationship, if it's been your norm growing up, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what works and what doesn't work in a relationship.
my trip was amazing...i spent an entire week on my hands and knees in the lower 9th ward in new orleans, cutting, laying and grouting tile floors. i met some really amazing people that go to my church here in DC, and really let me be me around them, instead of holding back like i usually do. i really felt like myself, and i felt very comfortable around these total strangers. my legs and arms are bruised and battered, but every day i got up at 6 am thinking, i'm doing something today that is going to make a difference to someone. i'm going to lay the floor in a house that a family can come back to after 5 years of being away, and they will walk on that floor every single day, and probably never even think of me, but all the same...i will be there, i will be a part of their home and their family. and that was an amazing feeling.
the spirit of the people of new orleans is undeniable. there are houses that stand empty near where the levees broke, but they still stand, defiant to the floodwaters, and FEMA, and everything else that should have brought them down. if those houses can stand, if those families can keep it together in the face of what they have been through, i can surely make it through this in one piece, and come out for the better on the other side.
"....the spirit of the people of new orleans is undeniable. there are houses that stand empty near where the levees broke, but they still stand, defiant to the floodwaters, and FEMA, and everything else that should have brought them down. if those houses can stand, if those families can keep it together in the face of what they have been through, i can surely make it through this in one piece, and come out for the better on the other side."
Words to live by, awesome attitude!
is that an excuse for his repetitive fleeing behavior?
Not an excuse for him always being that way, but for having
been that way.
i guess i can see that...
but how seriously should i take this "i'm not worth it...you'd be crazy to try to work things out with me" talk? i did get some texts from him last weekend where he basically called himself a loser and a f-up...my response was to say i'm sorry you feel that way, but i don't share your opinion. but what else is there to say? even HE thinks he's not worth fighting for...that seems a bit hopeless to me...
sure, that's possible. he even said to me in an email yesterday that he was very sad, and like i said in an earlier post, it's very unlike him to let his personal life interfere with his professional life. that's a red flag to me right there. i definitely think he could be depressed...but he's seeing a counselor once a week as it is, i'd think she would pick up on that and suggest something, medication-wise. he also just started taking chantix again to help him quit smoking and i know that's put him in a funk in the past, he would just be a bump on a long until his body adjusted to the medication, so the depression or fog he is in now could also actually be a side affect of the medicine he's on to quit smoking (since that medicine is, essentially, an anti-depressant itself).
i guess i can see that...
but how seriously should i take this "i'm not worth it...you'd be crazy to try to work things out with me" talk? i did get some texts from him last weekend where he basically called himself a loser and a f-up...my response was to say i'm sorry you feel that way, but i don't share your opinion. but what else is there to say? even HE thinks he's not worth fighting for...that seems a bit hopeless to me...
Google "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman
i know you all will yell at me for not being more detached...
but i had a rough night. i had a lot of plans over the weekend, so my H and i never had time to meet up and/or talk on the phone. we had loose plans to talk last night, but of course my phone never rang and it bummed me out way more than it should have. i did get an email from him this morning, saying he was sorry he didn't call but that he stared at his phone all night and just never knew what to say. sigh. sometimes i feel like i'm doing so well and then there are days like this where i feel like i'm back at square one and the smallest little upset is enough to make me cry.
the weather was amazing this weekend and i wished so many times that my H and i were on a long motorcycle ride or at least enjoying the weather together. i know, i know. don't yell. i spent plenty of time with family and friends and i went for a long run on saturday through a sea of health care reform protestors. so that was fun. i'm just missing him so much and doing my best to GAL through it and focus on myself, but i guess some days it's just harder than others.
the sermon at church this weekend was titled "this too, shall pass." and i know it will and i know i have to be strong...but i think they should rewrite that line to say, "with time and probably a lot of pain and tears on your part, this too, shall pass."
i'm having a hard time keeping my head straight today. i'm sure you all know what that feels like. after my rough night last night, today i feel like someone needs to scrape my face off the floor.
i'm feeling a little lost and definitely very blue. got an email from him again this morning, saying how much he missed me and how much he was hurting, but that it was normal for us both to be hurting through this. he also said it cut him deeper every time he saw me, which would explain why he hasn't been more eager to see me lately. it just seems like such unecessary suffering for both of us. while i was away on my trip, he suggested seeing a MC when i got back. in the week and a half since then, it's almost like he's distanced himself even more and decided that he's just not worth the trouble.
i know i'm thinking too much about this and i need to focus on what i need and on learning to let go. detach, i know. i know what i SHOULD be doing right now, but my emotions have taken the reins from my rational brain.
not a fun place to be.
TTA never yell only hugs and the odd 2x4
Work yourself through this. And when in doubt wait.
well i really need some help now...just got a long email from my H about how i was right about all these things about him and he just didn't think we could fix the damage that has been done and it wasn't fair to me and he felt like we should just finalize the separation and start healing. he can't even say the D word!! i had to go cry in the bathroom at my office. i don't even know how to respond to him right now...i know people would tell me not to respond at all but he wants to call tonight to talk some things through with me.
i don't even know how to feel. i just feel like a mess! help...
also...my H said he doesn't think he could ever repair the damage with my family. anyone have thoughts on piecing with a spouse's family members? i can see why he'd consider that as a factor in us working things out...my family is very close and i think he feels like things are effed up beyond fixing.
really, any words of wisdom would be appreciated.
Just random thoughts, TTA...
Can you get into a IC appointment - I'm guessing that you probably need to talk to someone.
Do you think you would want to call or meet up with him for coffee? I can't help but think that he said the damage can't be repaired - does he mean damage to you or to him?
You've done a lot to become a better person, married to him or not. So you haven't wasted your time. I think you also deserve more for your efforts. I'm not saying chase him down, but getting a fair and clear answer that is a bit more than "can't repair" is important.
Now if it is depression speaking, that might be him giving up.
Another thought - maybe a MC session with his current IC? Maybe the other IC could (in session) help you figure out if he needs time or his walk in the storm to see you meant nothing.
Twice in the last 3 wks I was sure there was no hope, despite suddenly feeling love for my W, because of her comments or reactions. I was sure that we couldn't "repair" the past. More than twice, I've felt that we could. Who knows what he's really thinking, but I hope your patience and love for him can get you through this really low spot to wherever your future lays.
Oh ya - in Retrouvialle, I got the idea that once you've been down to the separation and divorce roads, you aren't repairing a marriage.
You are rebuilding it. Maybe your H needs to see that you aren't putting on band-aids together, you are making an exciting new M with trusted, beautiful peices of wood.
also...my H said he doesn't think he could ever repair the damage with my family. anyone have thoughts on piecing with a spouse's family members? i can see why he'd consider that as a factor in us working things out...my family is very close and i think he feels like things are effed up beyond fixing.
really, any words of wisdom would be appreciated.
Easy. unconditional love. The only way H can heal the relationships is to act and act and act. And show why he chooses to love you. A hard path to follow but if he chooses to love you he will do this for it is important to you. And if he is doing this you use words of affirmation to aid in it.
how i was right about all these things about him
?
how i was right about all these things about him
?
OTM, i said some things to my H on the phone about how he'd never been held accountable for any of his actions or behaviors, he'd never had to take responsibility for anything in his life, because the people in his life chalked his actions up to him just being him. i told him, it's not ok to treat people this way, it's not ok to walk away from your marriage and just expect that you can text me and ask me if i want to go to counseling 2 months later. i told him i was glad he was seeking counseling and taking a hard look at some of the things he didn't like about himself, but that no one ever made him "suffer the consequences" so to speak of his choices and his actions, at ANY point in his life.
his mother never really disciplined him when he was growing up. he's pretty much done what he's wanted, when he's wanted to his whole life and never really had to deal with any of the fallout. he got arrested at i think 16 or 17 for making fake ID's and the police called his mother to let her know he was spending the night in jail. her response to that was to tell the police officer to tell my H to pick up diapers on the way home (my H has 2 sisters that are now 13). so for him, owning up to what he's done has never been an issue.
when he said i was right about what i said, that's what he was referring to. that he'd never had to take responsibility for his actions.
i don't really know how to reach my H anymore. we talked on the phone last night and there was a lot of silence. he finally said the D word to me, and that makes me feel very hopeless. i asked him if that was what he really wanted and he said, he didn't know, but he didn't trust his feelings right now. i asked him why the rush to finalize or "legalize" our separation if he was feeling that way...he just said it wasn't fair to me, that he couldn't give 110% to our M right now, at a point where he's trying to make some changes to himself.
i said i didn't need 110%. i said i just needed one inch, because i didn't know what i wanted, either, but i wasn't ready to walk away. i like what you said about rebuilding, instead of repairing, OTM. i just don't think my H sees it that way. i grew up in a family that was deeply rooted in faith, and i am a big believer in the power of forgiveness. my H's family is not religious and/or spiritual at all, and there's nothing wrong with that, but i think it's harder for him to relate to me on that level because of that.
we plan to meet up on sunday evening. i am going to try to remain as dark as possible this week, and only respond briefly if at all to any notes he may send. he's going away to philly with a friend of his on saturday and i will be out of town overnight for a wedding (which i'll be attending alone, thank you very much)...he asked me if i could meet up on friday, but i had plans with friends from my service trip that i wasn't going to break. yeah me!
i did have a few drinks with a guy i met on my service trip last night. he knew i was having a hard day emotionally and offered to meet me for a drink. it felt good to laugh and just kick back with him...i know i'm a long way from dating but it at least made me feel like if i have to, i'm capable of starting over and finding love again. i mean...i turn 30 in 2 weeks. my life is really just beginning.
i spoke with a counselor before my trip and i could certainly make an appointment with her again. it would help me to talk to someone...outside of this site, i've pretty much been keeping most of this to myself.
i told my H yesterday that i felt like a lot of what he'd said in his email was a cop out. that he'd messed up too much and too many times, that he'd hurt my family and me for too long. i told him that i wanted to be with someone who would fight for me and i wouldn't settle for anything less.
i finally took the pictures of my H off my desk at work, and i'm down to only 2 or 3 pictures of him up at my place. considered leaving my rings at home the last day or two but not quite ready to take them off yet. as far as i know, my H still wears his. at least when i see him he has it on.
i'm losing hope that i can bust this...i know i will be fine no matter what, but the daily cycle of emotions that i go through is really wearing me out. i'm kind of tired of feeling this way. it's exhausting to go from being filled with optimism and hope to feeling like your life is over in a span of 5 minutes.
also, last night on the phone my H asked about legalizing our separation and preparing ourselves for the D-word. he had said that to me in an email earlier yesterday, which sent me down the hall to the bathroom where i could cry in private. i don't think he knows what he wants and my fear is that he's going to pull the trigger on this in a state of confusion. i haven't heard from him at all today, and i don't expect to, even though he said he'd email me this week just to touch base.
i know i'm letting this all have too much control over my emotional state but i feel like i am flailing around in my own crisis right now and am not sure how to calm my emotional brain when it's screaming, you're getting divorced! you're getting divorced! my rational brain is saying, no matter what, you're going to be fine. but my emotional brain is really not interested in listening right now...
why now after 2 months apart would he ask me about signing the agreement? he just started an anti-depressant to help him stop smoking again and i know it's messing with his emotional health right now, but he probably doesn't see that.
i feel very hopeless today. :'(
So take a break and do not talk to him for a few days. There is no rush.
You know this.
i know there's no rush...and i know he's confused. i think going dark for a few days would be good for both of us.
OTM, i did ask him last night on the phone. his response was that he he wasn't sure but that he felt it was unfair for me to be waiting on the sidelines until he worked through some issues with his counselor. i said, we have to wait 6 months anyway...no real response to that.
i'm very ready for this to get easier.
i'm planning my 30th birthday party...kinda weird to not invite the man i'm married to. i wonder if he'll even do anything, but i can't worry about that or i'll go nuts. i'm having a mad men party at my new apartment and inviting some old friends and some new ones i made on my service trip, too. i'm excited and i know it will be fun, but i'm also dreading the idea of celebrating in the midst of everything that's going on.
i guess i just never thought i'd be planning my 30th birthday and a possible D at the same time.
that he'd messed up too much and too many times, that he'd hurt my family and me for too long.
That's a bit harsh - although he may deserve that. Mostly I mean the family part. Who gives about your family...they aren't married to him. Your mom treated him badly, too. Does it matter who was first?
Who knows...maybe your mom has been giving him messages like 'get away from my daughter' or something during the last month. It shouldn't matter, though, because your love/R is only between the two of you.
You are probably very hurt. Me having finally felt love for my W, only to have her ask about a separation 3x in 3weeks has got me way down. Just be careful to make everything a calm response, not a reaction from the emotional side of your brain.
Good luck and patience...
i'm planning my 30th birthday party...kinda weird to not invite the man i'm married to. i wonder if he'll even do anything, but i can't worry about that or i'll go nuts. i'm having a mad men party at my new apartment and inviting some old friends and some new ones i made on my service trip, too. i'm excited and i know it will be fun, but i'm also dreading the idea of celebrating in the midst of everything that's going on.
i guess i just never thought i'd be planning my 30th birthday and a possible D at the same time.
I am planning my 40th. I am going to surround myself with friends. We are going to run a race and hang out at the park and listen to jazz music all day. Sounds like a great way to bring in 40.
Why not plan a girls night out and enjoy the company of your friends.
i told him, it's not ok to treat people this way,
I'm not trying to judge your reaction TTA, just suggest how he might be interpreting something you meant to help the two of you come together...
Is it possible that he is thinking you were trying to tell him that he's such a screw up that he has to do it the right way, and that since he can't (at least not in the short term) that he should let you move on?
i feel your pain TTA... i feel like me and my H are in the same boat.... he is confused, doesnt feel like its fair for me to wait around while he makes up his mind, but at the same time doesnt want to just say its over for sure even though he thinks it might be over for sure... and now I am in a state of confusion myself, I want to bust this D as well, but I struggle too with feeling hopeful, and then feeling like nothing is going to make this misery end 5 minutes later.... I feel like I have to make a decision to stop trying or to fully commit regardless of what he does... thats a hard choice to make. And we have only been married 2yrs as well. This roller coaster is tough... and I dont know how to keep my hope alive either.... every 5 minutes it literally changes.
that he'd messed up too much and too many times, that he'd hurt my family and me for too long.
That's a bit harsh - although he may deserve that. Mostly I mean the family part. Who gives about your family...they aren't married to him. Your mom treated him badly, too. Does it matter who was first?
OTM, those are my H's words, not mine. i never told him i thought things were messed up beyond repair. if anything, i've let him know that while i was angry and hurt and felt that he'd never had to take responsibility for his actions, i also said i would consider seeing a MC together, just for the sake of seeing where it would/could go.
i also told him that my family's opinion is not my concern right now and that if he's going to use that as a factor in us splitting up, i find that to be a bit of a cop out.
maybe he's feeling like he's messed things up beyond repair, and i'm not saying it wouldn't take a long time to rebuild after what we've been through, but i don't know how to communicate that to him through the fog he seems to be in about the state of our M.
i told him, it's not ok to treat people this way,
Is it possible that he is thinking you were trying to tell him that he's such a screw up that he has to do it the right way, and that since he can't (at least not in the short term) that he should let you move on?
of course it's POSSIBLE that he would think that, i'm not inside his head...but i feel like i have communicated to him on several occasions that i want to at least try to make things work. i told him i was confused as to how one week he'd asked me about seeing a counselor and the next he asked me about legalizing our separation. in my response to him saying all of those things about it being beyond repair and all that...i said, that's like standing at the bottom of a mountain and saying, i don't think i can climb this. because you never know what you're capable of until you try it.
yesterday was the first day i had zero communication with him in about a month. it was a long, hard day. but much needed.
well...just got an email from my H. wasn't expecting to hear from him this week until we meet up on sunday. funny how just opening an email from him makes my heart pound out of my chest.
he just said he didn't want to leave our conversation the way it had ended for a week and that he was sorry he wasn't saying things i wanted to hear and that he didn't have a solution to "take it all away."
i know i need to sit back and take some time and think about how i want to respond to that. i want to let him know that i understand that he's in a state of confusion, and that no one on earth has a solution to take it all away. nothing is going to change our past but together we can change our future, despite the fact that it would be a long, hard, and very uncertain road.
he does have another session with his IC tonight and is going to philly with one of his good friends over the weekend...a very laid back, mellow guy who will hopefully pass some of his zen along to my H. not sure what my response to his email should be, i'm surprised to have even heard from him at all, and he even signed it "me" which is an affectionate way that we end emails...
any thoughts?
tta- did he ask you any questions that you need to respond to? If not..I would not respond. I know easier said than done (my H starts bombarding me with messages via every form of technology I own when I don't respond in a timely manner)
My H has said almost the same exact things...'how will I ever face your family'...'how can I ever make girl jokes in front of your brothers again' (H had an A and I have 3 brothers) 'there is so much damage...maybe it is best to just move on'. There are bigger fish to fry at this point...and family and friend opinions should not be the basis of the decision to continue or end your M.
It is hard to stay dark..or even dim..but when you are successful doing that..you might get a different reaction from him. It appears that he is telling you the same thing over and over again. Perhaps by you changing your approach with him...you can spark a change in him. His wooaaa-is me..I screwed up..look what I am doing to you..attitude has been continuing for some time. Show him that you are OK- he hasn't ruined you instead of just telling him that. Just a thought. If one approach isn't working..try something new. What do you have to lose?
thanks, lolawar.
he has taken a bit of an "i screwed up so much we can't fix this" attitude and maybe it's best if i don't respond. i think he just felt bad about the way our last conversation ended and didn't want to wait until sunday to attempt to smoothe things over.
he didn't ask me anything specific...i'll definitely think about changing my approach. thanks!
If you choose to reply, which maybe good at telling him that you have not thrown in any shoes, maybe limit it to a single point.
ex...
- I feel comforted that you care enough to not leaving things hanging (your empathy isn't something to run from, it is a value)
- Your love for me is amazing, which is why I think we can work things out into a wonderful & forgiving marriage (trust me and we'll do this better)
- Sometimes your love is so powerful that comments are hard to forgive, but they are being forgiven. (I am not will forgive you)
I don't know if these suggestions are true for your sitch, or of benefit. You know well enough that I'm not a fan of going dark.
Yesterday, W and I managed to survive with me in a massive pit of gloom. At night, she told me she thinks she should sleep in our son's room (as she did the previous night) for the next few months.
Calmly, I said that I didn't agree that would be good, and that I wanted her to sleep next to me as we make our marriage better. I added that I didn't want to let anything else get worse.
Guess what - she did share the bed, and I took a cautious step after another...and I'll leave it to say my hug grew. She has now taken a good step back from the separation she asked for (again!) two days ago. If I went to GAL and hope she turned to me, I don't think it would've gotten anywhere.
Ya, I know you are separated. But the amount that he texts, going to IC, the calls and emails, they all add up. They also make me wonder, TTA, about the following questions:
1. Is/was there an EA or PA or some other thing that he is afraid to admit? Maybe he can't bear to tell you...one more failure to deal with. I don't think this is the case, but I wonder. I doubt asking him would get you anywhere, but maintaining an atmosphere of forgiveness and acceptance might let him see you can (if you can) grow past anything.
2. Is he depressed?
3. Could MC tell him that you really want to be married and will do anything. At the very least, in MC, he may let on to the problems that he is dealing with during IC so you could see the whole picture.
4. He may think...she's not begging, so she must not care. I wonder if love messages are in order because he gives them to you. MWD talked about saying ILY to someone who doesn't as hurtful. He is in pain without you (he says), that sounds like love. Can you include messages of love in all messages?
5. Can asking him to hold off on S or D papers be a bad thing? I think if he knows you aren't stopping him, but that you don't want it, that's great. When I think my W wants
6. Maybe cut off a form of communication, or better could you limit it to responses when you get home so you and he aren't affected at work? My work has gone so downhill that having thinking time at work is OK, but responding calmly to mid day messages would be really too much. Is it too much for you or do you love those connections?
7. Can you meet instead of call? I find a call so much easier to be less intimate. Why not invite him over or to a cafe?
So my comments are really the opposite - take them with care and caution. It is your M and I'm not M expert!
Either way...good luck and may God make things easy for you.
am so glad I have found a forum who can understand what space I am in.I am 8 months post bomb drop and have been in NC for 6 months except for 2 texts.In summary here is my story:
Been married for 22 years and together for 28.2D 19/14.Probably lucky that I know what is causing my husbands crisis.Think he has been in crisis for about 3 years, starting with anger 07/08.I was diagnosed with depression 08 so was unable to be the emotional crutch my hubby was used to.Internet Affair Jun08. Apr09 suspected an A only to be told no way.In July 09 found txt's on husbands phone and he confessed to EA and PA.I threw him out and he went straight to OW.He is still there today.He said on the night of discovery that he didnt know if he loved her but was not in love sHE GAVE HIM CONFIDENCE!! BRAVO !!He said he had no plan to leave us and we had had 28 great years but I would never trust him again. She hasnt worked day in her life, has 2 troublesome kids and is ugly to boot.I found out shortly after I put my husband out that he had dumped OW week previously cos he wanted to be with me and kids.(This made sense to the txts I had seen..they were not intimate but childish).In April he had the opportunity to confess but was clearly cake eating.She actively pursued him I believe firstly befriending my father,finding out all she could(even came to where we lived to see house),then accusing my father of making sexual comments.I should point out my husband works in a gym.She was a customer who was in there every day 9-3pm.Didnt work out and had numerous affairs all with commited people. She also dated my husbands colleague whilst having an affair with him!My hubby used to tell me how nasty she was and sad she had no life.Her husband was a cheater.When my husband move to a new gym she started to give one of his team alift to work so she could have an excuse to see him.When his colleague asked what she was doing hanging aroun he said he couldnt gt rid of her!Not sure he tried hard.Our 2 D'S have refused to see or speak to him.Xmas and b'day cards have been sent back to him.You would have put a lottery win on my hubby not being a cheat had you known him.He is completely different man.When he left I told him I would not be messing with his head the way she had.He has started to rewrite history and has also gone NC with his friends and family(has only seen his dad fo half an hour this year).The two txts I mentioned covered arrangements to get Xmas cards to girls(he always wants to drop cards in..what happened to post service?) and a txt three weeks ago asking for a divorce and in return he would sign all matrimonal assets to me.He dropped our D'S birthday card at his dads and said could not face seeing us when his dad pushed him to bring card himself. Until this point he maintained he did not want to divorce.There has been nc since. He has lost weight,gone much greyer and out running alot(he did this before but not to the point it helped him lose weight.His friends and colleagus says he does not look happy.He even walked past his D14 in the street when he was with her and claimed not to have seen her.I have fully grasped there is nothing I can do and have to leave him to his journey.My family are covinced he will return but I think he is far too weak and too much of a coward.He is clearly deep in replay but not sure about anything else.In terms of the divorce I have decided he is the one who shall end the marriage and not me. I am concerned that the nc policy is making it easier for him ie out of sight out of mind. Any views.Thanks for listening
am so glad I have found a forum who can understand what space I am in.I am 8 months post bomb drop and have been in NC for 6 months except for 2 texts.In summary here is my story:
Been married for 22 years and together for 28.2D 19/14.Probably lucky that I know what is causing my husbands crisis.Think he has been in crisis for about 3 years, starting with anger 07/08.I was diagnosed with depression 08 so was unable to be the emotional crutch my hubby was used to.Internet Affair Jun08. Apr09 suspected an A only to be told no way.In July 09 found txt's on husbands phone and he confessed to EA and PA.I threw him out and he went straight to OW.He is still there today.He said on the night of discovery that he didnt know if he loved her but was not in love sHE GAVE HIM CONFIDENCE!! BRAVO !!He said he had no plan to leave us and we had had 28 great years but I would never trust him again. She hasnt worked day in her life, has 2 troublesome kids and is ugly to boot.I found out shortly after I put my husband out that he had dumped OW week previously cos he wanted to be with me and kids.(This made sense to the txts I had seen..they were not intimate but childish).In April he had the opportunity to confess but was clearly cake eating.She actively pursued him I believe firstly befriending my father,finding out all she could(even came to where we lived to see house),then accusing my father of making sexual comments.I should point out my husband works in a gym.She was a customer who was in there every day 9-3pm.Didnt work out and had numerous affairs all with commited people. She also dated my husbands colleague whilst having an affair with him!My hubby used to tell me how nasty she was and sad she had no life.Her husband was a cheater.When my husband move to a new gym she started to give one of his team alift to work so she could have an excuse to see him.When his colleague asked what she was doing hanging aroun he said he couldnt gt rid of her!Not sure he tried hard.Our 2 D'S have refused to see or speak to him.Xmas and b'day cards have been sent back to him.You would have put a lottery win on my hubby not being a cheat had you known him.He is completely different man.When he left I told him I would not be messing with his head the way she had.He has started to rewrite history and has also gone NC with his friends and family(has only seen his dad fo half an hour this year).The two txts I mentioned covered arrangements to get Xmas cards to girls(he always wants to drop cards in..what happened to post service?) and a txt three weeks ago asking for a divorce and in return he would sign all matrimonal assets to me.He dropped our D'S birthday card at his dads and said could not face seeing us when his dad pushed him to bring card himself. Until this point he maintained he did not want to divorce.There has been nc since. He has lost weight,gone much greyer and out running alot(he did this before but not to the point it helped him lose weight.His friends and colleagus says he does not look happy.He even walked past his D14 in the street when he was with her and claimed not to have seen her.I have fully grasped there is nothing I can do and have to leave him to his journey.My family are covinced he will return but I think he is far too weak and too much of a coward.He is clearly deep in replay but not sure about anything else.In terms of the divorce I have decided he is the one who shall end the marriage and not me. I am concerned that the nc policy is making it easier for him ie out of sight out of mind. Any views.Thanks for listening
i think you may have meant to post this in the newcomers section as a new topic? if you haven't already, i'd repost it there, or else you probably won't get many answers buried in my thread.
Thanks I have posted it there dont know what I have done..
HI TTA,
Sorry I've missed so much - I feel like you were a little alone this last week! I'm glad CB stopped by.
If it makes you feel any better.. I turned 28 in Dec and since the upstairs part of my renovation was done I decided to throw myself a party! It was fun - just small becuase I didn't invite anyone who was a "mutual" friend with H. I didn't need the drama. It was great and really fun. My H texted me the day before (the day of the party) to say "Happy Birthday Tomorrow"... Classy.
Your overwhelming feelings are totally normal - don't let them scare you. Embrace the suck as CB says. Its ok to feel everything you have describe... Just don't make your decisions based on those feelings. Definitely make another appt with IC - I'm a HUGE advocate of that... as you know. Its helped me a TON to talk through this and deal with my feelings. Its made the entire difference in how well I've handled it.....
Hang in there. Keep DBing... Wait.. see what happens...
(((TTA)))
T
thanks, talia. i'm doing my best to hang in there. i know i'm going to have my rough days every now and then. i am looking forward to my 30th bday party, but like i said...at the same time, it's like it's looming over my head that my H won't even be there. i'm doing my best to embrace the suck and not let it get me down. in fact, i have been complemented on how good i look no less than 5 times today. that feels pretty damn good!
no word from my H since his email yesterday saying he didn't want to leave things hanging. i'm not going to let it get to me. have plans tonight with my sister and tomorrow with a group of friends from my service trip.
sometimes i do just wish i would wake up from all of this and have a chance to work on making my marriage what i know it could be. i'm just so afraid my H won't even give us that chance.
otm...thanks for your thoughts. i did respond to him briefly and said that i was glad that he hadn't left things hanging. i clearly stated that all i wanted was a chance for us to see if things could work.
i have wished so many times in the last few months that i could have the chance to sleep next to him again. we haven't shared a bed since the night my grandmother passed away and he held me all night while i cried (which was early january). even before moving out he slept on the couch or upstairs at a male friend's. i don't even have the chance to make that one cautious step that might lead to another...and it's killing me. it's been almost 3 months since we ML and i feel so physically disconnected from him it hurts.
feeling especially low today...not sure why. NC yesterday and i know he saw his IC on wednesday. just sort of overwhelmed by all of this today, i'm letting my inner pessimist get the best of me. must be the weather.
anyway, i do have plans tonight and i worked out with my sister yesterday, so i'm doing my best to keep up my focus on gal. but i do have days where i feel like when i'im doing the gal thing, i'm just filling a void and everyone around me can tell i'm faking my smile.
i feel like my heart weighs 100 pounds today. i won't indulge myself, but i could very easily end up face down on the couch tonight in tears. that kind of day.
my rational mind is assuring me that i'll be fine and that no matter what happens, i will solider on and get through this. my emotional mind, however, is feeling like a big fat sad sack today and that's really weighing me down. i know i'll have fun out with my friends tonight, but that seems like a long way away and how on earth will i fill my time not thinking about my H until then...
i miss my husband.
It must be the weather..I am in the NE and I feel EXACTLY the same today. Blah!!!! I have felt good all week so this is kind of a set back. I have negative thoughts crowding my head today too. It started before I even woke up...had a dream of my H leaving me for the OW. VIVIDLY.
I haven't reached out to my H..but we haven't been NC.. he has been reaching out to me. I haven't heard from him today yet..but after that awful dream- I am fighting myself on contacting him. I am trying to remind myself that I want to contact him out of neediness..and that is not what I want to do.
When the negative thoughts surround you like a storm cloud..it is difficult to find something positive to think about..but that is exactly what needs to be done. People pick up on your negative energy..which often makes the day go from bad to worse. Try to be positive to attract some positive energy to move you out of the slump...that is my goal this morning...although I too would prefer to be curled up in bed.
Have a fun night out.
thanks, lolawar. i'm in the NE, too. this weather sucks!!!
my H is often the one who contacts me, too, and like you, i don't want to contact him out of neediness. i HATE not having contact with him...not talking to him makes me feel like he will just forget all about me and move on.
i will try my best to find something positive to think about...i certainly dont' want to make my day any worse than it is by attracting MORE negative engergy! if i could only manage a genuine smile...
thanks!
Why not contact him? He's called and texted before, so maybe return the love? Something positive to say, even meaningless, that reminds him that you can be strong together through all sorts of bad weather.
thanks, OTM. i probably will tomorrow. i know he's got a portfolio review for a potential teaching job tomorrow morning and i was just going to text him and say good luck.
i did email him earlier in the week or last week (i forget!) and said something along the lines of how many times i wanted to text or call but i didn't...he responded by saying the same thing. but he said he was trying to force himself to put some distance between us. i think he feels it will be easier to move on and heal that way?
i will see him on sunday, but that feels like ages away. unfortunately, i have to ask him for almost $400 to help me pay my taxes (i cashed a lottery check in my name that he won last year, so he's already agreed to help me pay the taxes on it) and i'm just not looking forward to asking him about money during our time together.
you know, there were a lot of things that were very wrong with our M. i've spent the last few nights thinking about those things and how i was often unhappy or alone in our M. maybe i will take some more time over the weekend and think longer about those things - because some of them are just the result of who my H is and who he'll always be. he tends to put himself first, he's always antsy to be somewhere else, and sometimes that means that i end up doing a lot of things on my own or for myself.
i was also looking through my photo albums on FB. sadly, i don't have a whole lot of photos of my H and i (or even just my H in general) in the 20 plus albums on my page. i can easily say i have 5 times more photos of my family members (my mom, dad and sister) than i do of my H.
so...i guess what i'm saying is i'm trying to realistically look back at our 5 year R and see what it is that i would really be missing if we do end up filing for D. i do love my man with all my heart, but he has put me through a lot in the first 2 years of our marriage...although i'm not even sure he's willing to give "us" a chance at this point. i honestly think he feels like he can't work on himself AND work on our M at the same time.
i don't know what to say to him in response to that...do i have to lose my H because he can't grow up and grow with me at the same time??
There's this ADHD fact that a typical child with it will act 1/3 less than his age in maturity. As a adult, that may not be true, but I've found that my "immaturity" can be an asset cause I can have fun and keep my energy up when others "my age" might not be able to!
With a R, for me (and possibly him), that also means I may make more mistakes that you may expect he'd/I'd have grown out of.
I don't think you need to respond to that if you do not want to. Maybe instead you need to decide if you can unconditionally love him as his is now - do you love him enough to accept his faults? For the bigger faults, is knowing that he is trying to improve enough, even though it will take time? Can you accept prompting him without judgment?
If I feel my W won't accept me as who am now, and I her, then everything in the next years will rely on "will they ever...?" ideas that we would resent.
So do you really love him, regardless of what he put you through? If you do, leave the self-talk out that will lead to more despair. If not, consider carefully if you want to 'greive' that missing area and still continue.
Probably judgmentally TTA, what you've written in the last few weeks sounds different than the first few weeks in one way - you are sounding more upset about who he is now, despite wanting him. Maybe I've really misunderstood - I do that~
TTA, i just saw your post on my sitch, sorry I hardly ever check that forum, i just use my thread under newcomers.
Your situation is scary similar to mine...well i mean the emotions and the things H is saying is so similar. Unfortunately for me, I feel like time and circumstance are completely against me with the military aspects of all this and the fact that moving out actually means moving across the world. He has recently decided to send me home, he said that this current situation is not helping and that the only thing that might help is for me to leave and for him to miss me and realize his mistake... that hurts, and it sucks.. but its true... this is all just a limbo right now... and nothing is changing... im scared though, im scared leaving will turn into more of an out of sight out of mind kind of thing... i dont know...
had a bit of a low weekend...i went to a very good friend's wedding and managed to keep it together for the most part. i dearly love this friend and am so excited she got married so i didn't want to unload my emotional baggage on her or her day in any way. i spent most of the morning before i left crying. i miss him SO MUCH.
the wedding was fun but i kept thinking he should be here, he should be here...not in a nasty way, just that i missed him and i felt heavy hearted that he wasn't there. i thought about him all night. i did text him that morning because he had a portfolio review for a potential job and i just texted him good luck and that i knew they'd be impressed. he just said thanks and that was about it. he's been so distant lately.
i feel like i'm walking around in a fog most of the time. instead of this all getting easier, it feels harder. a friend at the wedding asked me what i thought about my H getting a new dog. i looked at her and said "what are you talking about??" i had no idea. my H had never said a word to me about him getting a dog. i don't think he has one, but she is friends with a friend of his and said that he (my H) was talking about getting a dog a while back. that just about made me want to throw up and cry. at the same time.
we were supposed to meet up tonight but i think he's backing out. he went to philly with a friend yesterday and said he wasn't feeling well so ended up going home last night instead of driving back today. so. he says he's sick, but i have to wonder if he's just putting off asking me to sign the separation agreement.
i don't know what to do or think or feel. i'm a bit of a mess and feeling a pretty heavy depression lurking on my horizon. i know i've been doing well so far and now is not the time to sink, but...this weight is really getting to me.
OTM, i hear what you're saying. i have reached out to my H in a tender way in the last few days and it hasn't been recripricated (sp). i don't know if i can accept some of the things about him that may never change. i guess that's something to think about while i'm crying on the couch this afternoon.
Maybe keep focusing in on whether you can fully accept him. My guess (guess is the key word) is that might either release you to a new R, or give you the key to his heart. It doesn't mean anything will change quickly.
Should you decide that you do love him unconditionally, remember that as you've probably noticed before, he doesn't know what you don't directly tell him. Assumptions don't replace good and clear communication. And text messages don't replace a hug.
He walked to you in the storm. Maybe he is wondering if you can walk to him in his emotional storm. Maybe.
i'm really trying and not succeeding at pulling myself together today...
got an email from my H. he canceled on meeting with me tonight and asked if we could meet later this week. he said he feels like i want to reconcile and rebuild, while he is having feelings of doubt about the "viability" of our M and wants to just retreat. he also said he was overwhelmed with the feeling of failure.
i hate that he feels like that but what can i do? i think i gave him the impression that i wanted to reconcile and jump back into things right away, so i need to clearly explain to him that i have the same doubts he has, but that i want to at least have the chance to explore where we could go...do i even WANT to reconcile? i'm not 100% sure. but we have to wait another 4 months before we can file for D anyway, so to me, that's 4 months we could be seeing a counselor and testing the waters to see if reconciliation would even be possible.
he seems so ready to just give up and run away. do i want to be married to that man? i don't know...he seems prone to run from his problems instead of face them and deal with them, anyway. not exactly the way to make a woman feel secure in your love for her...
OTM, there are so many things that i can and DO accept about my H...the impulsivity, the need for social interaction, hyperfocusing...those are things that i have come to love about my H, because while they are things that are very different from my own personality traits, they mean things like spontaneous fun together, lots of friends, and a very focused drive to succeed.
what can i NOT accept? i cannot and WILL NOT accept a man who runs from his problems instead of facing them head on with the woman he married. i cannot accept daily self medicating with weed and alcohol. i cannot accept not feeling like the most important person in his life. are these things about him that will change with time and therapy, and his motivation to change himself? i don't know the answer to that. only he knows.
i can meet him in his emotional storm. the fact that i've been there for him at a time when it was so hard for me to feel anything but anger and sadness, i think that's meeting him in the storm. i've certainly let him know that i miss him, i think about him, and i am here for him. not overly so, but he knows i am here. what he choses to do with that is up to him, and i just have to accept that it is out of my hands. all i can do is offer my support and go on with my life the best way i know how. i just don't know why that's so easy to say and so flippin hard to do...
TTA-i can meet him in his emotional storm. the fact that i've been there for him at a time when it was so hard for me to feel anything but anger and sadness, i think that's meeting him in the storm. i've certainly let him know that i miss him, i think about him, and i am here for him. not overly so, but he knows i am here. what he choses to do with that is up to him, and i just have to accept that it is out of my hands. all i can do is offer my support and go on with my life the best way i know how. i just don't know why that's so easy to say and so flippin hard to do...
..agreed. It isn't an easy thing to do at all. I think you are doing a great job. There isn't much more you can say at this point. I think you have made it very clear where you stand and what your feelings are. I think reiterating these things don't do any good. It is so hard to not want to speak or see your H because you are afraid of 'Out of sight..out of mind'. Hang in there...try to keep your head above all of this. He needs to want to change..finding a coping mechanism besides alcohol and weed..he is in a crisis right now- and hopefully these are things that he is thinking about. You cannot force change in him. Perhaps the IC will be able to point some of these things out to him.
You shouldn't bring this up to H, but I was just wondering if you know whether your H discusses the alcohol and weed with his IC or whether only you and H know about it?
rr22-
i know my H discussed the weed with his last counselor, but he's seeing a new IC now and i don't know if he's brought it up with her.
i don't know if he's ever brought up drinking because i don't think he thinks he has a problem with it, or he doesn't really see it as a problem or won't admit it to himself, i don't know.
i know it's not something that only my H and i are aware of. i would venture to guess he's discussed the weed with his new counselor. he doesn't really hide the fact that he smokes...except from people like parents, bosses, etc.
What did his last IC say about it, if you don't mind me asking?
Does your H ever have an anxiety or depression disorder diagnosed before and the weed and alcohol are self medicating and he knows it?
Did you ever tell him that if he didn't give up the weed/alcohol that you couldn't be happy with him, or did you ever hint at it?
Also, do you think that the hiding behind the drug is the problem, or the drug? In other words, if he said he wants to end it but it would take a couple years, would that be enough?
BTW - 60% of ADHD adults without meds are drug users (not me, except for coffee...lucky for me it's against our religion!)
If I were you and I was on bomb two and I wanted children, I would factor that in heavily. Unless IC really works well, he might freak out from the responsibility of a child, I fear. Sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you're handling a tough situation well.
Does your H ever have an anxiety or depression disorder diagnosed before and the weed and alcohol are self medicating and he knows it?
his last IC is the one who diagnosed him with adult ADHD, although he had been diagnosed with ADHD as a child. he's never been on medication that i know of.
his previous IC told him that drugs and alcohol were self-medicating behaviors and the first time we separated, my H laid off the weed and i think went for about 2 months without smoking at all. gradually, as we eased back into the routine of our lives, the smoking picked up and once again, is an every day occurance.
but yes, he's aware that he's self-medicating. i just don't know if he's doing anything about it this time around.
his previous IC took the stance that he wasn't going to tell my H not to smoke or drink, but that he saw the amount my H was consuming as self-medicating.
his previous IC never suggested any sort of other meds for the ADHD and impulse control...
Did you ever tell him that if he didn't give up the weed/alcohol that you couldn't be happy with him, or did you ever hint at it?
Also, do you think that the hiding behind the drug is the problem, or the drug? In other words, if he said he wants to end it but it would take a couple years, would that be enough?
BTW - 60% of ADHD adults without meds are drug users (not me, except for coffee...lucky for me it's against our religion!)
OTM, i am not really opposed to smoking weed...once in a while. my H is well aware of how i feel about him smoking every day and in fact we've had several arguments about it in the past. most recently (about 3 months ago), i told him flat out that i was not comfortable with the amount of weed he had in the house (that he was buying for someone else) and my H sort of lost it and went on and on about how i do not accept him for who he is (he was also pretty drunk during this argument).
i think he hides behind it. i think it's something he does as a habit, to help him sleep and take the edge off his day. i've seen him quit smoking for a few weeks or month here and there so i don't think it's the drug. i think for him it is mostly self-medicating. he's expressed a desire to quit, but i don't see him really quitting any time soon.
So can I gather then your problem is that you feel his medicating has to do with you, or is it not really that big of an issue if it is limited?
i don't think the medicating has to do with me...he's been smoking weed daily for a lot longer than we've been together. i'm sure when things are rough between us it drives him to smoke more frequently...
if he smoked a few times a month, it wouldn't be a big deal for me. it's the every day that bothers me, the coming home from work and zoning out in front of the television or rolling a joint for a long car ride or something. if we were still in our early 20s it wouldn't bother me...but the more i felt i was ready for "grown up" things like a house and possibly a family, the more he clung to self-medicating. he would come home from a happy hour or something pretty tanked from drinking, and smoke a joint. you're already drunk. why do you need to be high, too? that kind of behavior is beyond my realm of understanding and i just never could accept that he did it so often...
While I can't say from experience, I've read that many drugs do what adhd meds do - increase dopamine in the brain. That's why they call it medicating.
Getting him on adhd meds would probably help, but if he's been doing it for that long, I'd guess you'd be in for the long haul.
So. Have you decided you will not deal with this? Or will you work through it with him? Or will you accept him as he is, not arguing with him about it until he's ready? Clearly, you have a POV. Make sure it isn't a reaction, but a carefully considered and considerate response.
you said:
his previous IC took the stance that he wasn't going to tell my H not to smoke or drink, but that he saw the amount my H was consuming as self-medicating.
I think a lot of ICs take this position so the patient keeps coming to therapy. To me that's a problem. If they know that it makes depression, anxiety, or ADHD even worse, why not point out the facts to the patient every once in awhile? General physicians suggest that their patients quit smoking, lose weight, etc.
I think this is a very interesting and very important point that you made here:
if we were still in our early 20s it wouldn't bother me...but the more i felt i was ready for "grown up" things like a house and possibly a family, the more he clung to self-medicating.
I think a lot of people go through this. It's when people find out no, maybe he was not just an occasional college-aged pothead. He will be a lifetime pothead if he does not QUIT NOW.
Good luck to you with this situation. It sounds like you know what you want.
So. Have you decided you will not deal with this? Or will you work through it with him? Or will you accept him as he is, not arguing with him about it until he's ready? Clearly, you have a POV. Make sure it isn't a reaction, but a carefully considered and considerate response.
i really feel like my H is pulling further and further away from the idea of us working things out. last week he told me he wanted to legalize our separation and yesterday i got an email saying that he doubted our marriage and continued to want to feel like retreating. i almost feel like i can't say i'll deal with something or not when it's almost like there's nothing to deal with. if that makes any sense.
dealing with the weed is not an option right now. if we reconciled, then yes, there are things about the amount he was consuming that i could not deal with. i don't want to be married to someone who will smoke weed forever, every single day. i just feel like for now, we'll have to cross that bridge if and when we ever get there.
i have no idea if he has ever discussed medication with his new IC. his last counselor didn't seem to think he needed it, or maybe didn't want to suggest it while my H was self-medicating.
I think a lot of people go through this. It's when people find out no, maybe he was not just an occasional college-aged pothead. He will be a lifetime pothead if he does not QUIT NOW.
thanks for your comments, rr22. i never understood why his IC didn't flat out tell him he should cut back on the smoking or drinking, especially knowing that my H was in self-medication mode. i know a lot of people take a stance that it's not their place to tell their patients what they should and shouldn't do, but it just seems odd to me that his IC wouldn't say, you know, it's probably not the best way to handle the ADHD, and it doesn't really seem to have the best affect on your M, anyway.
i have to say, though...on our first date, my H told me his one vice was that he smoked weed every day. in fact, he called himself a "functional pothead." ha! seems like an oxymoron, but at the age of 27, he held a senior level position at his company and was making a really good salary for someone his age. he is extremely creative and his mind is constantly working on new ideas and projects. his smoking was usually limited to right before bed time as a way to "quiet his mind" so he was never the type of person to sit on the couch all day and smoke the day away.
there's NO WAY i could have put up with that. but now that we're entering our 30s, i find myself less and less ok with the daily smoking. in fact, when we talked about me getting off the pill, we also discussed that he'd have to stop smoking if we wanted to increase our chances of getting pregnant. the day before i was going to get off the pill, he told me he was scared to death of having children right now, and after that, the smoking and the drinking increased significantly.
turning back to those old behaviors to deal with something on his part really put a rift between us. my criticism of those behaviors led him to think i wanted him to be someone else, and that nothing he did was ever good enough. i understand why he would feel that way, but i can't understand why he feels this is beyond fixing.
just a quick note, i picked up a new book for my kindle this weekend. it's called "storms can't hurt the sky" by gabriel cohen, and it's a buddhist approach to getting through divorce.
i'm only a few chapters in, but it's really helping me think clearly about dealing with my anger and other frustrations and challenging me to change my perspective of my situation.
i've never studied buddhism, nor do i really know anything about it, but the book itself is part memoir, part self-help. the author writes first hand about dealing with the anger and despair he felt when his wife of 4 years left him, and i can really relate to his thought process and wanting to work past being mad at something that was beyond his control.
just thought i'd share, it's a good read so far and a little zen never hurt nobody.
tta said: my criticism of those behaviors led him to think i wanted him to be someone else, and that nothing he did was ever good enough. i understand why he would feel that way, but i can't understand why he feels this is beyond fixing.
Maybe he feels it is beyond fixing because he does not ever want to give up pot. Thus it is beyond fixing. If he chooses pot over children and M right now, he won't be the first. He may not be able to picture himself as a non-everyday smoker.
I've known these high level smokers myself. Their level of denial and commitment to the lifestyle is high, because they feel it is tied to their success. Good luck with this.
Also it's a form of blame to say "want me to be someone else" (yeah, not an addict) and "nothing I do is good enough" (no, just mostly one thing isn't good enough-- your addiction).
It's blame and denial. You should prob. read some of those materials they have for members of A.A. and NA's families. They even have a Marijuana Anonymous, I think. I know they don't think they're addicts because they have good jobs and only use it to relax and sleep, but there are alcoholics that fit that description too...
that's true, rr22. just because he can function on a normal level and have a good job doesn't mean it's ok to do it every day. i do think he doesn't think he's addicted. i don't know if he would chose smoking pot over our marriage, and that certainly isn't the only factor in what drove him to want to separate...
I just went to our divorce mediator, and it became counselling instead. One topic that came up was the idea of addictions to things. She talked about how addictions are life-long issues that usually need help.
Maybe the weed/alcohol are something that he really can't deal with now, or is dealing with during IC.
I see your point about not wanting to worry about 'what if' while separated. I guess what I think is important is that you acknowledge and consider all the things you fight about (maybe a list) and see if any are 'deal breakers'. If there are things you'll keep fighting over that tend to send signals you'll never accept, things that he feels show him his M is a failure, then the long term wouldn't seem to rosy.
Our mediator become MC got us down to a time frame in our 2 1/2 hour meeting. We have 6 months that we've agreed to try hard to deal with three big outstanding issues/problems that drag us down and have made our M after Retrouv. a continued failure. In the 6 months, we've agreed to not talk about D, and "act as if" everything is improving. I know I've helped her to feel worthless, I know I really, really want to run away and get a fresh start with another woman who won't know my past. I know it. My W's acceptance of me for the 6 months, even with that limit, takes me past the barriers I've been living on to love her & be a husband, not just a provider.
Why am I saying this...I know you aren't on this page, but there are two things my story may help with, but FIRST, I think you really need to decide if you love him enough to accept him completely as he is, no strings. If my W couldn't do that today, I wouldn't be able to commit to 6 months. There is a set of strings to evaluate in 6 months, but until then, everything is about making it work!
If you did want to be M to him, string free, then consider:
1) Decide to go to MC and work out an agreement to try. He asked for it. Insist...make it happen. If he wants a separation, maybe that would be the result if didn't work.
2) Tell him loud and clear that you accept him. That you accept his faults and while you hope for change over time, your concern is improving yourself - not him. Yes, I know you think he knows it. If he's depressed/in denial/feels failure, it is up to you (yes, hurt and rejected you) to change that. I truly feel from what you wrote that he has given up on his failures with you. If you act now while the MC and other topics are up in the air, I think you'll get him back.
That is IF you truly do want him. If you are going to go back to bringing up his choices, I think he'll feel it in your eyes or action.
I know he 'deserves' to be the sufferer. But having been in both your and his shoes during my own M problems, I know that releasing your anger, hopelessness, the 'what ifs', blame, etc. is needed to really open up.
BTW - if you do get to MC, maybe Lotus and a couple RV couples like ourselves could help you being to open up the cans of worms through safe dialogue if he won't or can't go.
Pray to God alone before you decide, but be sure of your decisions with a calming deep breath!
my H is planning to come to my apartment tomorrow to talk. i'im not really sure what to say, and i get the feeling he wants to talk about signing our separation agreement and moving on. i don't know if his IC is helping or hurting him in terms of how he sees our M, but it does seem to me that he's pretty confused about what he wants and has said that he feels overwhelmed with failure.
i am open to the idea of going to a MC and at least seeing if we can make our M work. he suggested seeing an MC a few weeks ago but now seems hesitant and wants to move on with our lives. that makes no sense to me so i'm at a loss at to how to deal with meeting up to talk tomorrow. we have been meeting in restaurants over drinks or for dinner, but it's hard to express your feelings when you're trying not to cry in front of a bunch of strangers, so we decided to meet at my apartment instead.
i do love my H completely and accept him as he is. there are things about his behavior that would need to change (like the weed every day and spending SO MUCH time with his guy friends when i'm home alone)in order for our M to heal and to work. but again, we're not there yet. now he's telling me he doubts the viability of our marriage...i don't know if telling him that i accept him for his faults will make much of a difference to him now.
It's a tough call. MC could help, but you don't want to pressure him. If you're not ready to make a decision tomorrow, you can just listen and say you hear what he is feeling, and you appreciate him sharing it with you but you will need a few days to process it all and come to some decisions from your end. You don't have to agree with his opinions to hear how he feels and nod.
If he has shown no interest in not hanging out with the guys every day and not smoking weed every day, maybe he is really choosing that lifestyle over a married lifestyle. I know it sounds crazy, but it IS possible. Esp. if all his guy friends are single and making it look grass is greener.
I would not say the word "faults" to him tomorrow. Especially if he feels like a failure right now. If you want the option to work on the R, the first place to start is with his confidence and hope.
no, i wouldn't use the word "faults," good call. i want him to know that while his actions and decisions have hurt me, that i am not beyond repair and i'd like to at least know that we did everything we could to make our M work.
i don't think his single friends are making him feel like the grass is greener. i know he initially did the typical male thing which was to go out and drink your face off to avoid thinking about the situation you're in. last time i saw him about 2 weeks ago, he said he'd been cutting back on the drinking and going out because he knew it was not helping the work he was trying to do in becoming a better person. also, in conversations we've had in the recent past, he admitted that he was indulging in self-serving behaviors like being out with his friends and drinking so frequently, so at least he's aware of his actions.
i don't know if he would chose that lifestyle over being married, but he may chose it over the pain and hurt he's feeling right now...
how can i start with his confidence and hope?
He suggested it - so ask.
That's awesome that he's coming to your house. You might feel more secure in your own place than in a public one.
Do you have time to buy yourself something to turn him on? Something to remind him what he'd lose if you separated?
If he does bring papers, maybe ask to think about it. Ask for the MC as a condition if you feel comfortable. Some kind of gesture that says that YOU can feel comfortable with having tried everything. If you get a good referral, you'll get a good counselor. You can even have a first meeting with her alone to test her theories. Or maybe Retrouvaille in May.
http://www.retrouvaille.org/dates.php You don't have to be a passive waiter to see if he wants to return. As MWD points out, when he seems open, test the waters. Just be ready to pull back if it is freaking him out.
I was reminded that if my W wants a separation, then it doesn't mean there isn't love. It means there is hurt, and hurt comes from his love. Remember that. You are both hurt. Rebuild and let go of expectations from the past.
While you may not be now, or after having met him, I feel so much hope for you. I think you can make this work through considerate and loving words and actions.
I'm not sure. Do you think he's literally depressed? If so, you can only not make things worse for him. Lack of hope and feeling like a failure is a symptom of depression. So it depends if he's reacting to the situation itself or it's gone beyond that and he's in depression. People in depression have thought distortions supposedly. They literally have trouble believing the glass can be refilled.
how can i start with his confidence and hope?
Our divorce mediator turned counsellor reminded us of the importance of touch. Maybe sit next to him and offer a touch. He may pull away, but in my experience my W accepted it for a minute at least, and that is a real hope-message sender.
i'm glad we're meeting in a more private place, i think it'll be good for us to really express our feelings to each other without having to worry about what the people next to us are thinking.
we actually do a fair amount of touching when we do see each other. holding hands, or he'll stroke my face or hair. we embrace...last time i saw him he cried in my arms for almost a minute before letting go.
he may be in the midst of depression but i'm not a professional so i can't say for sure. is there a way to broach that subject without making him feel like i think he's depressed? maybe ask if he and his IC have discussed it and/or any medication for it? i don't want to come across and sounding like, clearly, you are depressed and need medication to fix yourself.
My W still thinks her self-esteem is just fine. She is going to IC though, and I pray that with time she'll see that.
I made it a condition of any hope to stay M, but I was in the position to do that. My IC gave me a visual that I gave her a few days ago, and that has helped both her and I understand the esteem problem, and my role in it.
Ideas only...
- Maybe accept responsibility, "I know my criticism has been hard and made you feel really depressed. Those meds seem to make everything so black and dreary, too." Then add in, "But I want to be living with you and this problem - working on it together. I'm ready to be there for you as you work on it". Once you are together under one roof, then you could step into the problem one toe at a time.
- Maybe ask some questions like, "Has the new job made you feel more hopeful?" If he is all negative on quite a few small questions, it might be an indication that things are bad. You could then empathise, "It sounds like these last few months have been very hard. Is your IC supporting that and suggesting meds to help cut the pain, or are you using your awesome and creative thinking to get by". Maybe a final touch of, "I want to be there for you. I really can see now more of the challenges & fears you face and I'm ready to go forward supporting you".
- My personal favourite... "I'm so glad for this separation because it has forced me to really look at where I've screwed up during our M. I'm sorry to have put you through that".
In what I've written, you might notice I didn't suggest anything to get him to own up. IF he's clinically depressed or just feeling depressed from failures, then he can own up when he's ready. He has, in general terms, accepted his failures. Maybe overaccepted, too.
Again, just ideas.
Don't suggest you made him depressed. You didn't. People with depression tend to externalize blame. You DO NOT want to take responsibility for causing his depression. You didn't. I suppose you could bring about in a roundabout way if he brings up IC on his own whether the IC has mentioned depression or anything and leave it at that? Some ICs don't. They just keep them coming back forever and never send them for meds even if they would benefit from it.
OTM-
i've actually already said a lot of those things to my H. i've accepted a lot of responsibility for being critical and resentful and have apologized to him for making him feel judged. i do not believe that that is what has him feeling so low. last time we met up he said there was not one single aspect of his life that was going well for him. the situation with us, he HATES his new job and is miserable there, his family is experiencing problems due to his 14 year old sister acting out and rebelling to the point where it's tearing his family apart, and he also said he feels like he has no real friends to lean on. i KNOW the last few months have been hard on him.
with very few exceptions, i have been nothing BUT supportive and have been there for him to lean on when he's had a bad day or is feeling low. he has thanked me on numerous occassions for my words of encouragement and my support. he knows i am around to be supportive but i think he's getting to a point now where he's distancing himself from my support, and i'm not really understanding that.
and i also have told him that if nothing else, this separation has made me realise things about myself that i was not happy about and has given me an opportunity to grow and learn who i want to be, and to actively pursue that person.
i don't really need or want him to own up to anything when we meet tonight. i'm not at that point anymore. looking backwards will not help us move forward.
With r22s words of caution, say it loud and clear that you don't want any retribution, just a fighting chance.
Only God knows what he's thinking now. It just really seems like he's doing what I've wanted to do so many times in the past 6 months - cut and run. I've screwed up (as has my W) and there are differences/issues that aren't going away anytime soon. It is sooo easy to think I've hurt her and I too much and running away will feel great.
Tell him & help him feel that his past failures are really successes - they helped you and him get to deep issues that make boys into men. The pain of the past is gone, and the future awaits.
Ask for the chance, don't hint. He may say no. He may have papers ready. It doesn't matter. Take the chance.
Remember - this is just my POV, but you are running your life. Choose after thought for what is right, not who is right.
i very much like that idea, OTM, that our past mistakes and failures could help us bring those deep issues to the surface that can make our M stronger if we give it a chance.
right now i think he is of the mind that we've hurt each other too much to get over our past and create a future together. i do not have a problem with at least taking the chance. i know i can't make him see that we deserve a chance if that's not where he is in his head.
TTA - good luck. I really hope you find some unexpected happiness today. "Act as if" everything will be great, be strong and tell him what you want.
You can make him see things, it is up to him to accept it. He'll see it by your love, body language, and clear/forgiving statements. If he feels you are his success, I think he'll walk away thinking deeply about you no matter what actions occur.
Have some kleenex with that built in lotion nearby. No matter how it goes, I have a feeling you'll have some tears ~
Do you think a sexy outfit is in the offering or are you going for comfortable?
you just made me laugh, OTM. i just pictured myself in a sexy getup, answering the door when my H gets here. i've never been one to wear sweatpants and tshirts (i don't even OWN a pair of sweatpants!), so i'll probably wear something flattering without being overtly sexy. i don't want to be TOO obvious.
thanks for the good wishes. my stomach is in knots thinking about tonight...
So having a pack of "the pill" on the coffee table...would that be too obvious?
i think maybe so.
i was thinking more like candles and soft music playing.
ok, i'm kidding, i'm kidding. i was thinking about making some dinner for us, though. i know he won't have time to have eaten by the time he gets to my place, so i may just make something easy so we can eat together before any real heavy conversation takes place.
Maybe one candle as a reminder of good days to come and those past should things heat up for good or for bad?
Have a great dinner!
definitely at least one candle.
not sure if any of this will shake him out of the low he's in, but i'll do my best to at least show him we have a fighting chance.
and kleenex are a must!
i wish i had better news to report...
my H brought the separation agreement over last night. the dinner that i made for us sat on the stove, uneaten. he had tears in his eyes before we even made it upstairs to my apartment.
he cried all night. he sobbed and sobbed in my arms and apologized to me over and over and said he couldn't get back to the emotional place where he felt like we could try to work things out. he said that in the past when he'd asked about counseling or had felt hopeful, it was because he missed "us" so much that he thought he could see it working out...but he knew - he BELIEVED - that we would not be together for the rest of our lives. i wiped away his tears. told him he was not a failure. told him i wanted him to have the best life possible. told him i wanted him to be happy. i held him while he cried. he said he was so lost, so empty, so broken...
my heart is shattered that he feels so much pain. it shattered again after he left and i read over the agreement. it uses terms like "...as if they had never entered into matrimony" and "...as if they were never married" and i cannot sign something that nulls the last 5 years of my life. i can't sign something given to me by someone in such a low emotional state, and i can't sign something that admits that i voluntarily enter into this, because it wasn't voluntary at all.
i told him that i saw things in him that i didn't think he saw within himself. and i apologized for anything that i'd done over the course of our marriage that may have prevented him from seeing those things. he said he hoped that one day i would be able to forgive him for hurting me so much. i told him i have an enormous capacity to forgive. and that i was even thankful for the time apart because i'd been able to grow so much and work on things about me that i didn't like.
he feels he has too much work to do on himself to commit to working on our M, and that he can't find the motivation to work on our M when he feels so "f*'d up".
he got a new dog. he's had her for a few weeks now. he said he got her to fill a void, but he feels worse now than before.
we went over the agreement together and afterwards i asked him if essentially, i could sign the papers, mail them to him, and never see him again. he said he can't see me anymore, that it's not fair to either of us and he doesn't think he can handle it. so. i have no idea if/when i'll see my H again. maybe i won't?
we sat on my couch and held each other and cried until he said he needed to go. he kissed me briefly and left in tears.
i fell apart when he left. i sobbed for hours and let myself hurt. i leaned in to the hurt and let it poke and stab me in ways i've never felt before. i feel utterly spent. i do not know where to go from here...
honestly...i don't know what to do with this agreement. should i sign it? should i not sign it? it's a separation agreement, and we can't legally file for D for another 4 months (we have to live separately for 6 months to file uncontested), but...
do i resist the idea of D by not signing? will that push my H further towards wanting a D?
do i show my H i love him enough to let him go by signing? if we both sign and then file this document, IF we decide to reconcile afterwards, we have to sign a legal document and file that, too...
i feel very very hopeless today. he really seems to believe that the damage is done and can't be repaired. or rebuilt.
You did great, TTA!
What a tough place to be, but you've managed to look at things today without losing sense of you.
I can't imagine how hard things are, but I know that you are strong enough to take the roughest wave dealt to you so far~
Ideas:
- Tell him that you have too much hope to sign it. You'll sign it under the condition he agrees to either Retrouvialle (just one weekend, you don't have to do the post sessions) or MC
- Sign it. Move on. Accept in your heart that you will likely see him or hear from him and he'll be a friend. Know that a D will mean more hard days, but they will pass.
- Don't worry about what he might do if you do. Consider it breifly, but he's no longer just separated and in love. He's separated and loves you but isn't committed to your M.
- IF you take the route of not giving up yet, then keep your behaviours positive. Maybe re-read DB to remind you that anything is possible, even at this stage, if YOU want it.
- Pray. Remember God gives you tests, but it is up to you to pass them, and retake the test as many times as needed. There is no full failure in these tests. Divorce is a thing sometimes needed. Forgive you, too. I'm worried in the place you're at you might be thinking "if I had". There's an Islamic phrase that says "if I had" opens the door to the devil.
- Just because he believes it doesn't mean he'll always believe it. Ask him why he wants a separation agreement if your state doesn't need one for a divorce. Is he asking for a year to move as a single person and improve himself or is he asking for closure while a D isn't possible. He might not know the answer to this question, but I think it is worth asking.
- Showing you love him isn't signing papers. I know that there's the phrase, "if you love it, let it go". That means to me don't be possessive. It doesn't mean give up.
- Give up if you want or need to. It is a failure, but you didn't cause it - a M is a two way street full of potholes and in your case, a partial "pothead"! If you really don't want to do this anymore, you do have a choice.
- Don't rush. Take as long as you need. This is your M and the man that you love. He is hurt. You are hurt.
I wanted to add one last thing. I told you how I thought he needed your support and to know that you don't see him as a failure. It sounded like you did that. If he's depressed or, like me sometimes, overwhelmed by responsibilities, even he might not see what he really needs but be looking for that fast route out. Giving it to him is a choice you have.
It is your choice.
Try to look outside and enjoy the beauty of the worst weather. The biggest clouds can destroy, but they also bring new hopes and life to things that had died.
OTM,
you shared some great ideas, thank you as always for your thoughts.
i won't rush to sign anything or have a lawyer look at the agreement...i'm so confused right now i hardly know which way is up.
i don't think telling him i'll sign on the condition that he do a retro weekend or try MC will work. he knows i'm willing to try MC and he is just not there anymore. if he came to MC with me only because it's the only way i'd sign, i know his heart wouldn't be in it and that would get us nowhere, fast.
i did say to him that he's feeling these things RIGHT NOW and he may feel differently down the road. the agreement says "both parties have no expectation of reconciliation" but my H did say, if we did decide to reconcile, we'd have to file another document with the separation agreement. it didn't give me much hope, but i guess at least he said that much.
i don't want to give up but i also dont' want to struggle so desperately against something that is outside of my control. if this is what he wants, whether or not he'll always want it, it's what he wants and i can't change that. fighting against it or resisting it isn't going to change his mind. in fact, it will probably do the opposite.
in order to file "uncontested" in my state, we must have submitted a signed separation agreement that states that we've already agreed on the division of any property, finances, etc. so essentially, we DO need one for the type of divorce we would file for.
i did assure my H last night that i do not see him as a failure and that i would never think badly of him. maybe one day i will look back and thank him for sending me down an unexpected path in my life that leads to greater happiness than i thought possible. maybe one day we will have a stronger M because of all of this. maybe one day he will send me photos of his first son. i do not know where this road will take me. sometimes i want to curse the road and blame it for my unhappiness and suffering, but i know it's not the road's fault. it's just so much easier to blame what is right in front of you, what you can immediately point to and say, i'm hurt because of YOU. but that's not the way i want to live.
i'm assuming we'll be NC for a while. his sister had to make a few minor adjustments to the agreement before i have a L look over it, and he owes me tax money. my 30th birthday is next friday. it's very easy for me to sit here, like a victim, feeling sorry for myself. but that's not who i want to be. i can and i will celebrate without him, but i know i will be heavy hearted.
i feel like i can no longer reach out to my H and tell him i'm thinking about him, tell him i miss him, tell him i hope he's ok. what if i never see him again? i can't be friends with him. i can be friendly to him...but i can't see him in my life as a friend. i want him to be happy and successfull, with or without me, but i don't know if i could stand to see it if it ends up being without me.
((((trytryagain)))
Came across your thread...my heart breaks for you.
Hang in there....one day at a time. ((((hugs)))
gg
when my H left last night, he had a few minor changes he needed to ask his sister to make to the separation agreement. he was a wreck when he left here last night and she is away visiting family right now, so i assumed it would at least be after the weekend when he got it back to me.
he emailed me the changed agreement tonight with a note saying he'd stayed home from work today and he hoped i was holding up ok.
it took a LOT of willpower not to email him back a very snarky and angry reply. it took him less than 24 hours to turn the updated agreement around and he HOPES I'M HOLDING UP OK??!?!?!
i haven't cried that hard in a LONG time. it got to a point where little kids get...that sort of sobbing inhale/exhale where you think there is no way they can possibly be getting enough air and they just scream and scream.
i feel like i did the day he left. the day he moved out. it still hurts exactly the same, only now it hurts worse.
i had so much hope. and it just keeps fading and fading...
also, i haven't responded to his email about the separation agreement. i don't know how to. i don't want to sign it. i did some research today and my understanding is that filing uncontested means that both parties willingly and voluntarily entered into the separation...but that's not true. my H moved out. i never wanted him to move. i don't want to turn this into anything nasty, but i also don't want to sign anything that says, yes, i voluntarily agree to end my marriage.
i would really appreciate any thoughts on how to handle a response. obviously i will say something like, i will have a lawyer look over it and will get back to you if i have any questions. but there's no timeline on signing something like this, right?
god give me the serenity...
tta- Tomorrow is a new day..you feel differently each day..don't lose all hope.
i feel like i can no longer reach out to my H and tell him i'm thinking about him, tell him i miss him, tell him i hope he's ok. what if i never see him again?
Stop doing this immediately. If this is what you have been doing..complete 180..and as quickly as possible. Don't do the same thing that hasn't been working. It is hard as hell to do...don't say any of these things again!!! ..and as difficult as it is- don't let him see you in this sad state. Cry when you are alone or with a friend..or come on here and vent..but don't let him see your tears. I feel your pain. Stay strong. Continue making some changes in your life for you..the sun always comes out again...although not always easy to believe when you are in the midst of a storm cloud. You will get through this...either as better person for yourself..or a better person prepared to piece back your M. Don't let this be a complete set back for you. Hugs.
Maybe March is a bad R month?
I'm sorry TTA if I set up your hopes too high. Be proud of the work you did and are doing.
Remember, it maybe very unlikely right now, but time and careful responses can improve any situation.
You deserved the cry.
and he HOPES I'M HOLDING UP OK??!?!?!
Would you want to reply, "I would be doing better if you were willing to give us another opportunity. I'll go through the agreement, but I do wish to reconcile, so I am not sure if I can sign this when I think we could be happy together forever"
i don't know what to reply. i want my dad to look over the agreement and this weekend is easter and next week he's out of town and next friday is my birthday. maybe i'll just briefly respond and say i'll have my father and a lawyer look over it and get back to him later. i think i have a tendency to go on and on and try to talk my feelings out with every email, so a 180 for me would be to keep it short and stictly business.
i ended up in a pile on my closet floor this morning, sobbing. my body feels like it's on auto pilot. it's going on with my life, but i'm not really all there...
But you are, TTA, YOU are all there. With or without him, it is you that you live with each and every day.
How much of your feelings are failure, and how much are your desire for him? While hope really must always be remembered - if he is depressed or on med side effects, or just finds his love stronger than his fears, he may one day come running back to see your work in action.
Is it possible to be mixing up those feelings and thinking your sadness is only missing him?
OTM, i do feel a lot of failure. i know this is not my fault or his fault anyway, but i certainly feel like i've failed at keeping a marriage together...we haven't even been married 2 and a half years yet!! i'm also feeling an enormous sense of loss right now, over the future plans we had, the family i wanted with him...compounded with the extreme aching of missing him, his presence, our daily lives together. it all adds up to just about the most painful hurt i've ever experienced in my life.
i try to let my rational brain in on this from time to time, and remember there were so many things that didn't work, so many things that made me unhappy...my H has accepted that while we love and care about each other, we just can't make it work. i'm not there yet, but i am certainly not glorifying our relationship or forgetting all the hard times and hurt we went through.
I don't know if this is going to help, but I hope it does...
I knew my M was a failure from the 3rd week. But, I kept up smiles, dinners, and as passionate sex as I could. I prayed.
Now, 10 1/2 yrs later, my screw-ups that were happening before and until now, and to be fair hers as well, have got me here.
I'm not sorry that I tried. I can forgive myself for my immature and ADHD failures combined. But I know I tried.
I don't know if my M will survive today. I can promise you though, the failures you feel are nothing compared to mine. If things work out, you'll be proud.
If they don't, at least be proud of the fact that he and you did what you could to solve things after 5 yrs, not 11. The feeling of failure hurts so, so much more when kids are affected as well as a W.
Let it go. Gnosis posted the following. I'm NOT sure if you should detatch now, but if you want to detatch more, it is something to conside.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Detachment is hard. It's easy to say, "Hey man, just erase the past decade of your life and move forward..." and that is bullshirt. Because during that period you had some really good times. You don't want to erase those because it would mean your life was meaningless -- and if you have children, it also erases the kids.
Unfortunately, it takes time. In the beginning we fall into the "attachment trap" subconsciously and need people to point it out to us. This continues until we become consciously aware of it, then we can consciously work on detaching until it becomes second nature.
The worst thing about the situation we find ourselves in is the extent of destruction that has been caused. We constantly dwell on it. When we are "in the moment", we can't see the forest for the trees, and we sink into depression. The depression happens because we are completely powerless to do anything about the situation. Even though we "know" we'll get through it, it still sucks.
I hate the phrases, "It needs time" , "It will pass with time". Yes, those terms are true. And the pain and hurt DOES subside with time. But what can we do to accelerate it? There is nothing we can do to make time go faster or slower.
There is ONE thing we CAN do however...
The "trick" is to minimize your mental activity on the situation for now. For now, don't think back on the good times or the crap that is going on. All we can do is GAL and get busy...and find things we enjoy doing. Firstly to distract ourselves from the crap that is going on, then, when we do it long enough, it becomes a habit. We become so occupied that we "forget" the fiasco at home.
That's when our mindset starts changing... we find ourselves looking forward to enjoying ourselves, improving ourselves... FOR ourselves. And we discover how our happiness depends on ourselves. With our improved self-esteem, confidence we find that when we do look back, we now have the mental strength to cope with what seemed insurmountable at first.
i probably do need to detach a little more, and come to grips with the fact that it is NOT my H that makes me happy. i can do happy all by myself. every day has its ups and downs and i have my moments of feeling utter and complete loss and then i have my moments of breathing a sigh of relief that my M isn't carrying on the way it was a few months ago.
H is asking if we can "wrap up" the agreement by april 15. i don't even think you need to file the thing if we plan to D "uncontested" but i'll need to consult with a L on that. to go from thinking about counseling in early march to wrapping up a separation agreement by mid april just seems CRAZY to me. so that's what i'm telling myself right now. that he's just crazy.
in my response i told him i'd have a L look over it and i'd get back to him but that i was at odds because signing it meant that i voluntarily entered into the agreement and the D, and that's not how i feel at all. he still can't file for D until august (6 months after he moved out), but once the separation agreement itself has been filed, i think that's going to be the nail on the coffin for him.
i keep asking myself why i want to be married to someone who CONTINUALLY questions his commitment to me and to us. why i want to force this man into counseling or reconciling when he's the one who left to begin with. why i want to be with a man who is TELLING me that he can't see us together for the rest of our lives. is it just comfortable? am i just afraid of the change this will bring? do i really think we could make this work or do i tell myself that because i am so scared of letting him go? do i just want to posses him and be the only one he'll ever love? am i just being arrogant and thinking that he'll never find another woman like me? why do i want to be married to someone who has wanted out TWICE in 2 years? the answer can't just be because i love him. i've loved people before. i know i am capable of loving again.
maybe the vows meant something to me. maybe the whispered promises during our first dance were real to me. maybe i'm not realistically remembering my M for what it really was. i don't know. but i'm having a very very hard time just letting go. i don't want to struggle against this so hard, i don't want to resist so much, because i only get more and more tangled that way. certainly my H is only human and we are all entitled to our mistakes and god knows i make my fair share of them, but this is a man who has walked away from me 4 times in 5 years. what is it exactly that i'm holding on to? sometimes i think i was only holding on to an illusion to begin with...
so that's what i'm telling myself right now. that he's just crazy.
I think he may be - you seem like a very caring person who would've been able to help him become a better man.
I was wondering if you could tell him that you'll do it the month of the D, if there is one. When you talk to your L, maybe ask him if you can just ignore it until then - if YOU want to, that is. I think you're right, any legal agreement is like saying game over. Still, no one can ever gaurantee anyone else's behaviour.
why i want to force this man into counseling or reconciling when he's the one who left to begin with.
I'm not sure if I can imagine being with my wife till death just yet. But I am hopeful and trying. Love sure makes a huge difference. As you've said, forcing someone isn't probably that effective, but again, each person is different.
If you are sure you want to try still, the trade of agreement for counselling is a reasonable one. In counselling, you can find out some details of what is really going on that is separating the two of you. He hasn't said why, just forgiveness. Of course, he could stonewall, but if he still loves you and you ask through that love and explain it is for a sense of closure, I would wonder if he would agree.
Maybe in a month he's going to change his mind, but for me, separation in our house made me feel separate. Trying to fully reattach is harder now - I get flashbacks and memories of dreams I had invented to make a D seem good. More time might only make it harder.
You had some excellent questions about your motivations for yourself. Those seem very important to answer before you decide anything. Maybe it was an illusion. But I doubt it. You seem to have many good memories. You have the right to ask for a clear explanation. That can be over time, in peices, or through some kind of MC or whatever. He has the right to refuse, but you can ask guilt free. Think of it like a job - wouldn't you ask?
i don't know, OTM...i honestly think he could be in some kind of mental "episode" right now, because it wouldn't be the first time...i can only reach out to him so far, and from there it's up to him to take my hand. but i've tried to be patient and supportive and kind to him - no doubt i've had my moments and made mistakes along the way - but i feel he's retreated so far into his hole of despair that even i can't reach in and get him out.
i need to talk to a L first and find out when or if we would need to file an agreement prior to filing for divorce. if we don't need to file it prior to filing for D, i might ask him if we can just follow the agreement as it states on the document, but not necessarily sign anything until he wants to file for D.
i still really don't know if i said, i'll sign if you go to X amount of counseling sessions with me first for the sake of closure, that he'd be open to that. i've already asked him why we can't try at least one session, since we have to wait another 4 months to file anyway...to me, that's 4 months where we could at least put a toe in the water and see how it feels.
not everything in our M was an illusion...but i think some of it was for sure. i think back on how many things i did over the last year with my friends or my sister because my H was working or just wasn't interested in the event or thing i wanted to do. right now, at least, i think my H feels like he's given me a clear explanation...he's thought and thought and feels like he can no longer see us together for the rest of our lives. it's weird because that's what he was saying to me when he first wanted to separate back in january...then a few weeks to a month later it was, i'm not sure if this is what i want...what would you think about counseling? it was phone calls until 1 i the morning or him coming over in a snow storm. now he's back to "we just can't make this work," and i think he's honestly convinced himself that D is the only way to stop the cycle of us breaking up and getting back together.
i also don't know if i like his new IC. he seems to like her, but he said she doesn't give much attention to his ADHD, and i fear that she may have told him that a clean break was the only way for him to start fresh...
If you did work things out, would your next years be like last year? If you are sure they would - remembering that you can never be 100% sure, then maybe it wasn't a great M.
If you think that the more aware and independent you would find ways to live as married married people instead of single married people, then your H is wrong about thinking your marriage would never be happy.
I remember you mentioning that you don't like to work the room with your H. Maybe if you are to stay M, you would need to change that aspect of your shyness. Would you be able and want to do those kinds of things?
Perspective on IC:
I went to mine last night and as has happened before, the component of sexual attraction came up. I made it clear that while I am satisfied with my Ws body, there are parts that I find 'ugly'. It sounds awful I would talk that way, but in IC and here I will spill it all as it is.
My IC (who was our MC) reminded me that if I'm satisfied, stay. Otherwise, things won't be better in that area.
She also mentioned another thing. Changing her example to match your H: An IC will respond to things they hear, not to the facts. If your H says, "I feel so alone with my W when we're out", the IC has a lot to ask about your shyness (etc) and how your H can control those feelings. If he said, "I hate being out with her", the IC might think your R is the problem.
If your H's IC isn't getting to the root of problems, it would make things worse. That is why MC can be better - you are in the picture and the converstations can lead to a better understanding of your dynamics. My IC was my MC, so she is aware of my W and our married issues.
well, from what my H has told me, he and his IC are making some "deep digs" into the root of his behavior, and i don't even know how much they talk about our M...i think their focus is on my H's behavior patterns and how he got to be that way. for me, i'm not interested in how i got to be this way. i already know. i'm interested in solutions and actions and moving forward. but for some people i know that in order to move forward, they have to dig into and uncover some things about their past.
i don't think my H would ever say he felt "alone" when we were out together. i am not shy, but i'm not an extrovert like my H is. i stick to talking to people that i know, and i'm not one to walk up to a stranger and strike up a conversation. my H is. i've never been bothered by his ability to work the room while i sit with a friend and chat. what bothers me is when i feel like he's so busy working the room that he forgets that i'm even there. and in any case, his extroverted nature is not a dealbreaker for me. it's one of the things that attracted me to him. his presence fills a room.
i think his IC, though, may have him thinking that he's so f'd up in the head that there's no way he can work on himself and on our M at the same time. i have no way of knowing that for sure, but...we met up a few times in february when he started seeing her and after one particularly hopeful dinner on valentine's day, he came back a few days later and said his IC told him we shouldn't be rushing anything. not that we were, but...i just wish i could be a fly on the wall in their sessions.
if we both committed to making changes and growing up and learning from our mistakes TOGETHER, then i think if we were able to work things out, i could let the fear go and we could with time and piecing, be very happy again. i just don't know if my H will get to that point before he serves me with D papers.
i keep asking myself why i want to be married to someone who CONTINUALLY questions his commitment to me and to us. why i want to force this man into counseling or reconciling when he's the one who left to begin with. why i want to be with a man who is TELLING me that he can't see us together for the rest of our lives. is it just comfortable? am i just afraid of the change this will bring? do i really think we could make this work or do i tell myself that because i am so scared of letting him go?
These are really insightful questions you're asking yourself. Have you done any more work around these questions since you wrote them here? Do you journal or meditate? Sometimes the only way I can find answers to the questions I ask myself is to write. I think you access a different level of your thoughts and emotions with a pen in hand. Sorry I'm not that familiar with your sitch yet, but the depth of pain it sounds like there are in those questions just made me wonder.
but i'm having a very very hard time just letting go.
I'm so sorry you're going through such a tough time; allow yourself to feel what you need to feel - you're grieving right now.
but this is a man who has walked away from me 4 times in 5 years.
How has that felt?? If it were me I would have been angry, in addition to the sad. Hang in there TTA.
((( TTA )))
Can you set a deadline for yourself how long you are willing to wait? Do you know what kind of marriage you will be happy with? Follow your plan until the deadline, just do it.
Whatever you do, don't sign anything regarding separation/ asset division when not level-headed. I would not be surprised if your H thinks he can get away with being unreasonable because you don't want to argue and want to reconcile.
i'm feeling pretty blue today and felt that way for most of the weekend. my friends and family kept telling me to smile. i did my best to GAL, i left the house, i did stuff, i exercised, i went and saw the cherry blossoms, spent a lot of time with my family...but none of it could take the hurt away. i could forget for a few seconds at a time, but i would snap right back to thinking about my H and i'm at a point where it physically hurts. my whole life hurts. i know ya'll all know what i'm talking about.
not a word from my H over the weekend. i didn't expect anything and god knows i wanted to send him a text about 8,000 times but i didn't. i will have to email him soon to let him know about the $ he owes me for my taxes this year, and i talked to my dad about him and a L going over the separation agreement, but i'm still not ready to sign it.
my dad and i talked last night...he said that he will ultimately support whatever i feel like i need to do, but that he felt i needed to let go of my H and open myself to loving again. my H is so closed off right now, i am pretty much losing all hope that he will ever want to try and work things out.
prairie girl, in response to your question about how i felt after him leaving this time...i really haven't felt much in terms of anger so far. maybe it will come later, maybe it won't come at all, i don't know. i am sad, i am heartbroken, i am devastated over the idea of the loss of the future plans i had with my H...but i don't feel like this is something that he did to me, i don't feel like a victim, and there just isn't any anger. the only time i got close to being angry was when my family had to help me move. and mostly i was mad that my family was inconvenienced because of something that my H did. i've never been angry that he moved out. just sad.
To be honest, having read your update I was feeling blue, too. Your M seems so full of possibilities, but how can you make a blind man see when he doesn't want to? Not now, at least.
I can see why you aren't angry. He's lost and can't find the way out of his mess. He's got himself lost along with his past issues. The help of the IC hasn't helped you, although it may in the long term.
My faith teaches that God never sends a test greater than a person can handle. You've done great, considering the emotional turns - don't lose that strength now! You'll need it as you rebuild, with or without him. Your life will continue and develop no matter what, so do the best you can with it. Enjoy your memories and find strength and direction for where to go. Memories are parts of us that are good - you aren't losing those good times with your H.
I hope you can find the way to open him up to you. Praying for it is a good thing to do. I wouldn't pray only for that.
he IS lost, and it's hard to heal from that, thinking that we could have saved our M or at least tried...
i know that my life will continue and develop, but it's so hard to picture it now without him in it. i promised him forever, and it's all crashing down around me and there's not much i can do to put the pieces together again. i'm willing to try, but he's not there...and i can't force him into it, either.
i keep dreaming that he'll snap out of it and see what he'll be missing if we move forward towards D, but with every day that passes that we don't talk or have contact in some way, i feel like it's another brick he puts in the wall between us. i do pray, constantly, that i have the strength to get through this, that i can deal with this with grace and compassion, and that my H will know he is loved and open his heart to me.
i feel very lost. not in the same sense i think he's lost, but...lost just the same.
When two people are lost, one must still find a direction to move toward.
Good luck!
thanks for the hugs and the positive thoughts...
i do have at least one reason to smile today. out of the blue, a guy i used to date and actually liked A LOT contacted me through FB just to say hi and share a music project he'd been working on. we've been emailing back and forth today and i told him about my situation and he offered some genuine words of sympathy and encouragement. so that was nice.
i finally sent the agreement to my dad to review. he'll most likely send it to a family friend who is a L to look over, too.
i'm working on finding my direction, OTM.
Hi TTA, just finished work so thought I'd stop in to see how you're doing. I'm so sorry to hear what a rough weekend you had. Thinking good thoughts for you as you work towards finding a positive new direction... looking forward to reading how that progresses for you. Take care.
last night i went on one of the longest runs i've done...6 and a half miles! it was a beautiful run, and i did it in just under an hour and 20 minutes, which was a personal best for me. i wanted to quit about 5 blocks in, but i kept putting one foot in front of the other (and jamming out to lady gaga helped a lot, too!), and before i knew it, i was back home again.
i emailed my H yesterday to let him know what he owed me on the taxes. i asked him about his easter weekend and told him he was in my thoughts. i got very brief, business like responses. apparently, his puppy's jaw was dislocated over the weekend and he got into a fight with his mother on easter sunday, so i guess he is feeling like things continue to pile up on him. he seems so lost and unfeeling to me...i hardly even recognize him in his emails and my heart breaks that there is nothing i can do to help him.
my dad looked over our agreement last night and had some questions which i guess i'll have to ask my H about. i don't know if i should submit any changes to him or to his lawyer, but...i guess i'll figure it out.
has anyone seen the movie "precious"? i watched that last night after my run and it certainly made me feel like other people out there have it worse than me...
just got off the phone with my mother. further proof that i cannot talk to her right now. as soon as she answered, she said, you know it's ok to be angry and we're all here for you to help you get through what that a$$hole did to you and going on about how i never should have taken him back the first time and how nothing would make her feel better than (and i'm quoting her here) "slapping the sh*t" out of him.
my mother and i are cut from very, very different cloths. i am working really hard to be level headed and cool about all of this, but she flies off the handle at the drop of a hat, and feels the need to tell me exactly how she feels all the time. i said to her at one point, if this is the way this conversation is going to go, then i'm going to hang up. you are entitled to your opinions and your feelings, and that's fine if you want to be angry. but i am not angry. i do not feel it is a positive use of my energy right now, and my H is not a bad person, he is very troubled and i can't be angry that he is in an emotional fog right now.
she said i am just making excuses for him and that he's a liar and he made promises to me and said we'd be together forever. so i said, mom, does that mean that all the people who end up divorced are liars? she said, YES. i know she is hurting. she keeps insisting that she is going through this whole thing, too. but i told her, i am the one who goes home to an empty house and at the end of the day, i am the one who has to sign the papers. i will be the one with a D looming over my head, not her. she will not wake up in the middle of the night and reach out for a man who isn't there. she will not have to date again or let go of loving her husband. it amazes me that in the midst of all of this, my mom is making this about herself and how much SHE is hurting.
am i making excuses? i don't think so. my H is a very lost person right now. i can't be mad at him for that, any more than i could get mad at my dog for shedding all over my house. i chose the way i respond to all of this, and i do not chose anger. i said to my mom, i could call my H every name in the book, i could key his car, i could send nasty letters to his family, i could do any number of angry, hurtful things and you know what? nothing would change. i wouldn't feel any better, and he would still want a D.
i could try to explain the buddhist concepts i'm reading about right now to my mom...about how people aren't inherently bad, they are all just like us, wanting to seek happiness and avoid suffering, and that the actions and behaviors of other people are not actually responsible for our own emotional well being. but i think that would be lost on her.
sigh. funny how a 15 minute phone conversation can TOTALLY exhaust you...
sigh. funny how a 15 minute phone conversation can TOTALLY exhaust you...
Now, now. This is your perfect mother, isn't it?!?
I was reading what you wrote and I was IMPRESSED with you. To be able to follow a route of peace over war for your own ENs is probably one of the hardest things to do.
Cudos! (sp?)
thanks, OTM. it was very hard, when i wanted to yell and cry and fight back. i calmly stood my ground, validated her feelings, and said i wasn't going to carry the conversation further if she was going to continue to say such hurtful things. i think the book i'm reading on buddhism is helping me think things through and be a bit more mindful and have more control over my responses.
of course none of this changes anything between my H and i. the shortness of his replies yesterday felt like a punch in the gut. he's just distancing himself from me at this point. he told me a few weeks ago that his IC noted that he seemed to continue to push me away, the one person he could always count on to love him and be there for him...i guess now he's decided he already burned that bridge and there's no going back.
I don't know why I keep thinking about you getting a session with his IC if you think he can not explain what is going on. Of course, privacy will always be maintained, but having the IC know what you are thinking might allow the IC to privately talk it over in one session with your H.
Does that make sense...didn't sleep well last night so everything seems a jumble!
he's already let me know that, although he's broken hearted about it, he doesn't see us being together in the future and for that reason, doesn't feel it would be in our best interest to pursue counseling together. i can't force him into it, and i've already let him know i'm willing, but if he's not...not much i can do about that. i could ask for one session for the sake of closure, but, i don't even know if he'd be open for that or what good it would even do. he is so far gone at this point...
he hasn't asked me about the agreement again since he sent it to me last week. i am not making any moves right now, that is for sure.
It's funny when I think about his short replies. IF he was GAL, wouldn't people tell him to make short replies, focus on content, etc?
I'm sure that doesn't make it feel any better...
It seems good that you're not rushing the agreement so you can clear your thoughts and nothing becomes "legal" too quickly (giving him time to reconsider). Why rush it, anyhow?
i could ask for one session for the sake of closure, but, i don't even know if he'd be open for that or what good it would even do. he is so far gone at this point...
Would it hurt to try? You can give him more time, but so far, that seems to be hurting. He had time to reconsidering moving, but he did. He had time to reconsider MC, and that led to him pulling back.
What could happen if you asked?
He may say, "I don't ever want to do that again, even for you."
OR "Why bother"
OR "OK, but I'm afraid of the past hurting my progress now"
OR many other things.
But what could happen if you didn't ask?
He may say, "She got the point that I'm moving on...good for her"
OR "I miss her, but I've screwed up too much and she'll never really forgive"
OR "Why didn't she demand it? I must have been an as."
OR again, many other things.
Going through the options, and knowing many others could happen, I would ask yourself again, what is the harm in demanding or asking? If he'd give you just one weekend for Retrouvaille, I really think it would turn him around. He's a creative guy, many variations can happen.
Think back, didn't you ever get him to do something he was set against? He has the right to reject anything. But if your own hurt casts you into a shell of self-protection and giving up, you would never know if there was some hope.
As an ADHD man, I think demanding it like, "If you don't" will be hard to take. But, "Please, I'm telling you to remember one good time and give me a chance - I am not desperate, but I do love you very much and I am sure we can be very, very happy if we live, work, and play together" or any variation. YES, it is "begging" and "pursuing". But so far, distancing hasn't helped, has it?
As always, this is your M.
distancing really hasn't helped. my H was much more receptive when we were in closer contact with one another, but even the kind words i've sent his way as of lately have only been met with short replies. i think his distance is a coping mechanism, his way of healing and accepting this is over. more time and distance will only widen the gap between us now.
i could certainly ask him about a retro weekend or a counseling session or two. maybe it would turn things around and you're right, the worst he could do is say no. but i feel like he already knows where i stand. i've already told him that i forgive him and that i do not think poorly of him. i've told him that we could try counseling and see where it leads. i've wiped away his tears and told him i love him and that i'm so sorry for the hurt i've caused him.
i would never demand that chance from him...but sitting back and waiting for him to come to me has been ineffective so far.
went to early birthday dinner at my mom and dad's last night. no one even mentioned my H (sans some very brief talk with my dad regarding my separation agreement), and his absence in the chair next to me at the table was painfully distracting. i laughed with my family and my mom gave me a beautiful diamond ring that belonged to her and also she had an onyx ring of my grandmother's repaired for me, so that was quite the surprise. i have to wonder if anyone in my H's family will even so much as send a card or a text/email on friday for my 30th. i know i can't let that bother me or concern me...but i haven't seen or spoken to any of them since december, and it's bad enough losing your H without losing his whole family, too.
anyway, we had a nice dinner and as always, i'm totally fine until i go home to an empty house. that's when it hits me and i usually end up in a pile on the floor and there's no stopping the tears.
forced myself out of bed early today and did a 2 and a half mile run around the capitol...nice start to the day. just wish i could run fast and far enough to fill the void in my heart.
It's true that you can't make someone do anything (i.e. MC).
Are you doing IC?
forced myself out of bed early today and did a 2 and a half mile run around the capitol...nice start to the day. just wish i could run fast and far enough to fill the void in my heart.
Aww. Keep your head up. Exercising is definitely a great way to relieve dress.
thanks, soleil. i am in IC, i have an appt on friday. my H is also in IC, but i can't understand why she's not urging him to at least try one MC session. i can only assume she's one of those "your marriage is so screwed don't even bother" types.
holy crap. i just got an email from my H that he just quit his job. he said it wouldn't affect the monthly payments he owes me, but that REALLY freaks me out. i will be up the flippin CREEK without those payments.
and i'm really worried about him that he hated his job enough to quit like that without something else lined up. he NEVER would have done that when we were still "together."
any thoughts on how i should respond to his news???
Tell him you are glad to hear it won't affect monthly payments. Save the text for future referenced/document what he's stated.
Keep it light and nothing emotional.
As for his therapist, could be he's told them he does not want to do MC. They are paid to sit and listen objectively. Don't think too much into it.
Are you finding IC helpful?
i told him i was sorry he'd had such a rough time at work and that i appreciated that he would continue with the financial support. i just don't know where the heck that money is going to come from, i know he doesn't have a dime in savings, unless his parents are going to support him for a while. he's helping me cover my rent, not to mention his own rent, a car payment, insurance, student loans, vet bills, and the money he gives me each month for our line of credit loan and visa card. since we don't have anything legal and signed in place, should i move to sign the agreement now to cover my bases? i have his email that says he would continue to make the payments, and i don't want to kick him while he's down, but he asked me to sign the damn thing last week anyway and then up and quit his job today, and i really don't know how on earth he plans to keep supporting himself, let alone helping me out, without a job lined up. deep breaths, deep breaths.
this is one of the things we CONSTANTLY struggled with during our M. i am uptight and panicky about finances. i get it from my mother. i have tried to let things start sliding off my back more often, but i am a big time saver and H is a big time spender and we were always butting heads about that. so for me to not flip out on him in an email is a 180 for me. i was understanding and calm. but there is a storm a'brewin inside.
i have only been to one IC session since my H moved out. it was helpful but not to a point where i felt any real relief or clarity. i was out of town for a while and couldn't get away from work this past week so this friday was the only time i could get to see her in a few weeks. i'm looking forward to it. she's also a yoga instructor and ends each session with a brief meditation, which i really need. especially right now.
i see what you're saying about his IC. i know they are paid to listen, but they are also trained to offer insight and sometimes even solutions or ways out of the problem. otherwise, why would anyone go?
but i can't understand why she's not urging him to at least try one MC session. i can only assume she's one of those "your marriage is so screwed don't even bother" types.
IF she's a good IC, she'll deal with topics he wants to and direct him to things that she think hit the right nerve. If he starts crying every time he mentions your M, she might steer clear for now.
IF she's bad, anything can happen.
That is why (I think) you need to decide what you want to do when he isn't capable.
any thoughts on how i should respond to his news???
Wish him well in what he decides to do next. Offer your support if he wants to talk it out?
thanks, OTM. i did offer my support and told him i was here if he needed to talk. his response (3 hours later) was to thank me for my support and to say he's facing all of this head on as best as he can. (read: thanks, but no thanks)
he is really building a wall between me and him and what little hope i had left gets dimmer every day.
what do i want to do? i'll have to meditate on that for sure...i don't know how to let go right now.
How are things going, TTA?
well, i took the weekend off from the site. i turned 30 on friday and took a flying trapeze class which was just absolutely amazing. all i got from my H was a lame text message that said "have a nice birthday, tta" - that was IT. his grandparents called me (surprise, they have NO idea we are separated) and left me a really sweet message, and even his sister sent me a card. but i tried not to let it bother me much.
i had a really fun party and all my closest friends came and we did a Mad Men theme and everyone came dressed like it was 1960. we had a blast. saturday i went on a cruise out in the potomac with a friend and had a great time. all in all the weekend was great, i am embracing 30 with a smile, and fully prepared for the next chapter of my life.
i emailed my H this morning to tell him that i would not have the agreement signed by the date he asked about (the 15th of april). he quit his job last week and while he has a part time teaching job, there's no way he's pulling in enough to support himself and make the monthly payments to me that we agreed on. he wrote me back a pretty long email saying he felt so conflicted for not being there for me on my birthday, and it was no big deal if i couldnt' sign the agreement until i had a chance to go over it with my dad and my L. i also asked him to tell his grandparents about our separation so i could call them back and thank them for thinking about me. and i did not feel it was my job to be the one to tell them.
i just feel like i don't even know who he is anymore. his sister said she has no idea how he's doing because every time she asks him to do something with her or her family, he says no. i know he's still seeing his IC, but...he's on emotional lock down right now and there's not much i can do.
i spent a lot of time over the weekend being honest with myself about our M and what i wanted out of it and what i hadn't been getting prior to our separation. i saw my IC on friday and she said she was very impressed with how well i'm handling things and how far i've come mentally and emotionally since she'd seen me back in march.
i told my H it hurt that i had only gotten a text message from him on my 30th birthday...honestly, i don't care how conflicted he was. i was the one who ended up feeling like he didn't give a sh*t and couldn't be bothered to even send me a card.
where that guy is in his head is beyond me. i don't even know him anymore.
hmmm, just got a bit of a nasty email from the H. i asked him about extending his alimony payment until i move to a new place which will not open up until november and his response was not so nice. seems he thinks i should know better than to ask him for more support when i know he's upside down financially right now. but, he's the one who wanted to separate, so...i don't know why i need to pay for the choice he made.
he ended it by saying he knew that wasn't how i was trying to come across and that the choices and responsibilites were his to deal with (he said that with a bit of sarcasm, though) and that he hadn't said or done anything else for my bday because he just didn't know what to say or do.
i wanted to fire back an equally scathing email, chew him out for leaving me to begin with, and say something along the lines of HOW DARE YOU even complain to me that you might have to sell the motorcycle and move in with your sister to help me keep making my rent and other debts that you helped me incur before YOU MOVED OUT. but i did not. no, i took a deep breath, i said i hated even asking when i knew he was in a tough spot financially but that he'd made some decisions recently that put both of us in a sticky fiancial situation, but that i wasn't out to point fingers at him or collect money from him that he doesn't have. but...he also didn't HAVE to quit his job last week (which he said he did), and he has a responsibility to support me and continue making the payments he agreed to make to me.
sigh. this is one of those days where i'm just like, just divorce me already so i can move on. i haven't heard much of anything from him lately, so his anger took me by surprise. the last few times we've talked he's been nothing but sad and apologetic. as soon as i question anything outlined in the agreement, the claws come out.
I'm wondering if he's feeling overwhelmed enough that lashing out is easier than figure out the numbers. Do you think it would help to have a cup of coffee with your H and go through finances (who's debts are whose, etc.)?
I know what you mean about 'divorce me already'. I'm stuck in that rump, now, but for a different reason. Having this feeling has made me an irritable person to be around at times, and my claws haven't retracted just yet.
Did you ask him why he quit? Maybe if he wants to vent it to you, he might realize that you provide a need for him that he's loosing - a person that can love and hear him out. The IC can hear, but not lovingly. Coffee to talk over finances can lead this way - if you want it to.
PS - glad to hear your doing fine despite it all. Try not to take the birthday thing too much to heart. He's screwed up enough that if he's in depression, then he is probably beating himself up for it already.
How'd your IC go?
i know why he quit his job, he was miserable and hated it and felt like his boss belittled him. and i certainly wouldn't expect him to stay in a job where he felt that way, but quitting before he had anything else lined up - when he knew he had financial responsibilities to keep up with - just seems irrational to me at this point in the game.
i don't know if meeting for coffee would help. he's angry, frustrated, sad, confused...not a ball of emotions that i could be of any help with. i've told him numerous times that i'm here if he wants to talk, but he refuses to take me up on the offer. like i said earlier, he's in emotional lock down and there's not much i can do. we already divided up all of our "property" and the motorcycle that HE owns is in MY name, so that could get sticky if down the road he can't continue making the monthly payments on it...it screws MY credit, not his. all the other debts we've hammered out as to what belongs to me and what debt is his.
my IC was fine...i talked most of the time and i didn't feel like i left with a sense of "i know what i need to do" i left with a sense of "i am dealing with things pretty well but still have no solutions." she said we would tackle solutions and make some goals for me next time.
Hi TTA,
Have you got a legal counsel? You will go over your debts and assets with your lawyer/ attorney and will have a better idea of who owes how much from a legal POV. I advise you not make any arrangements with your H without consulting a L.
thanks, wholeagain. here's the deal on our finances. we have no joint debt. we own no property. the car is in his name. his student loan debt is in his name. he is taking on the car, his student loans, his rent, insurance for the car, payments on the motorcycle. i pay my own rent (with support from him), and my bills/debts outside of that are a visa card and a line of credit which my H has agreed to pay X amount for each month (calculated from how much debt we incurred using the card and the line of credit since we've been married).
i will definitely not sign anything without consulting a L first. but my H was frustrated that i would ask for an extension on his support of my rent money (which is currently through the end of july, but i'd like to go through the end of november) when he is dealing with so many other bills and just quit his job last week.
i wanted to respond to him and say, if you were THAT worried about all this sh*t, you probably shouldn't have left your JOB, jackas*!!!!! in fact, i still kind of want to say that to him. but i know it won't accomplish anything. it's just frustrating. now he's whining to me about how he can't afford all this, when it was his decision to walk away and cause all this mess in the first place!
Don't argue with him. But don't agree with his demands until you get a legal counsel. It sounds that you have it ok (you agreements with H). You know what I mean, he might be getting extra loans to cover your rent and have extravagant expenses, if not now possibly soon (do you have intel? does he have EA/PA?). How would law treat those loans, as a marital debt? Would you be liable? That's why you need a legal counsel.
I understand you might not want to sign agreements, as it would bring D a step closer and you want (subconsciously?) have some business between you and him to keep in contact. It can be in your interest to sign the agreement if you think it's fair from financial POV. There are many LBS's that have to spend money on litigation upfront because their WAS's were not cooperating.
TTA - he's left you...that is his biggest irrational decision. You love him and are now accepting of him.
He's hurt, confused, and depressed. Is it possible he was fired and doesn't want to tell you? Is it that he knew that he wasn't doing his job well enough?
If memory serves, he's not on any ADHD drugs, so it could be impulsivity. If he wants off pot and to control his emotions, I hope his IC, you, or someone can get him some meds to deal with that.
If he wants to meet for coffee, maybe somewhere without memories of failures, what could it hurt? It would be a chance to remind him physically that you are there, perhaps of your soft touch, and that he has a reason to keep working (financially & emotionally). It is much less cold that a text message to say in person, "I'm worried that the stress might be too hard for you. I'm worried about my own sitch, too. Can you tell me what your plans are."
BTW - some ADHD meds can help with anxiety, too and lower the risk of depression.
Sorry to 'double message' again, but i forgot to add one thing.
You mentioned that his sister said he is beginning to exclude her. Maybe have a coffee with her and try to get the low down.
Fight for your M, TTA. Make the opportunities happen. You've said that you are sure the man you married is buried inside. Find help. If a D does happen, move on. Until the final judgement comes through though (if it does), fight.
You've tried waiting. Didn't work.
You've tried listening. Didn't work.
Did you ever try using your gut to change the game? Yes. When you went to N.O., you came back to him wanting MC. So sometimes it helped, and sometimes not.
180s are about doing what works and changing what doesn't.
Yet a 3rd message...I really need to plan my emails but my wordiness ("verbose"?) gets me each time!
If you use the alt, my user can be found as dbust. I think through it I can send you a couple articles about ADHD and depression if you need them.
so, after the snippy email from him yesterday, my H texted last night to make sure that i was ok. i usually ride my bike to work and he'd heard that some young woman on a bike was struck not far from my office and he wanted to make sure it wasn't me. i mean, i know he obviously still cares about me and my general well being, but...i was a little thrown by that. it was nice of him to check in on me and i told him as much.
it's possible that he got fired, but i don't think so. he really REALLY hated that job and said it wasn't what he'd signed up for. but again, he could be spinning the story, and i'd really have no way of knowing.
i don't think his sister knows the low down on my H. he's not communicating much with his family and she said she has no idea if he's ok or not but she just hopes his therapist is helping him. the first time we separated, i did have a sit down with her and she explained to me that this is "just what H does" - he runs away from his problems and his family just says, oh well, that's just the way he is.
i just don't even know what's working and what's not working anymore. and on top of that, i don't even know how much i WANT this to work. he has completely shut me out of his life, and that he would even THINK to say, "you needing support from me is going to mean i'll have to sell my motorcycle and move in with my sister" when this was a choice that HE MADE for himself...that's just not someone i want to be with.
he's still thinking about himself first. no matter that he's put me in this spot where i have to ask for help with my finances because my salary is about 1/3 of his...all he's worried about is his precious motorcycle and keeping his own apartment. the anger that wasn't there before is starting to boil below the surface...
also, OTM, my H has said he can't see me anymore, it's too hard for him. so i don't know that he would even be open to the idea of meeting for coffee to discuss a few things in the agreement. i have no idea if his IC has talked to him about any medication but he did tell me about 2 weeks ago that she was more focused/interested in his history and his behavior patterns than she was in the ADHD factor, so that tells me she's probably not thinking about medication.
wholeagain - no EA/PA that i'm aware of. i have no access to his email, bank accounts, or phone at this time, so i really have no way of knowing. but i really don't think that is the case. as far as extravagant expenses, without a job, and knowing how much debt he has in his name, i don't think he could even get a loan to have access to more money. that's why his motorcycle is in my name. he couldn't get the loan for it because his credit is so bad.
things seem pretty hopeless with the H right now. but for the first time, i'm really starting to feel ok with that. i don't want that marriage back, anyway, and while i feel i did all i could to be supportive and understanding, there's only so much i can do. i do not want to be married to someone who does not want to fully commit 100% to making things work. i don't want to be married to someone who will continually put other people/things ahead of me in his life. i don't want to be married to someone who just keeps on walking away.
he is not the same. i don't want the old him, but i don't want this new him, either. he may come out of it, he may not, i don't know. but i can't and i won't wait around for that to happen.
i'll sign his agreement (once i have a L look over it) and i'll keep putting one foot in front of the other. this is a choice he will have to live with for the rest of his life, and i'm trying my best to see this as an opportunity to pursue my own destiny and to find what makes me happy.
i'm not saying i'm giving up entirely. i am still broken hearted. i am still grieving. but i feel like i am really, truly for the first time, letting go.
but i don't want this new him, either. he may come out of it, he may not, i don't know.
It is too bad that it has come to this; I hope your better understanding of yourself and the situation will help.
I can understand what you're saying about not wanting the new him; since I've told my W about some very personal issues that I thought she didn't know about (but she had), she's gotten harder to live with. I know she needs time, and so do I. Your H has put his inabilities on paper. My W (and in the past me) have done it with words. It hurts to be stuck, doesn't it?
But you've done what you could. Time can change things, but you are taking care of yourself and trying to understand yourself, too. Consider this a success, not a failure, TTA~
it IS too bad it's come to this. perhaps time could change things, but i don't even know if i'd want to change them at this point. i really don't know if he's capable of being the man that I NEED in my life. i want to believe he could...but his past actions tell me i should know better.
it does hurt to be stuck, but i won't allow myself to stay in this place. there is a world of opportunities out there for me. in all honesty, i have had more fun in the last 3 months than i have in a long time. not because my H isn't around, but because i'm finally learning about myself and what makes me happy and pursuing those things instead of worrying about what my H is or isn't doing that is going to bother/hurt/annoy me.
we had some wonderful times together and i will always cherish those memories, but those memories alone aren't strong enough to rebuild a marriage on when one person isn't ready or willing.
You've moved with your POV quite quickly. Was there a moment that you 'woke up' or is this something that you'll need to keep working through with your IC to ensure your feelings are genuine (not masking any pain).
i've been moving to this POV since my H moved out at the end of January. i don't know if there's a moment that i woke up so much...maybe the "have a nice bday" text on my 30th, maybe his whining about having to give up the motorcycle over a LIFE CHANGING decision he made, maybe the fact that he still thinks we can't fix this. i don't know. but i'm not going to sit around and hold on to hope when he's not giving me ANY reasons to.
i am talking to my IC about all of this and she actually congratulated me on my mental/emotional progression. i don't feel like i'm masking anything. i'm still in pain, i still cry, i still feel moments of anger and anguish...but i'm also letting go of the marriage that i did have. and i'm ok with that. i'm ok with where i am now. i love my H and i really truly believe in the commitment of marriage - but all i have control over is is myself and my own actions and responses, so if this is the direction he wants to go, i'll go.
damn this constant up and down of emotions. one day i am fine, the next day i am a mess. i hate feeling this way. i'm moving forward, i'm accepting and letting go, and yet today i find myself overwhelmed that the man i married is letting ME go. the whole course of my life will change....maybe for the better, who knows. but it still hurts today.
well, it looks like i'll be meeting with a L on sunday afternoon to go over the separation agreement my H had drafted up (based on what we'd mutually agreed upon prior to him moving out). i have mixed feelings about this. i know the signed agreement isn't the same as D papers, but...still feels like a nail in the coffin. he will eventually (our "waiting period" is over as of august 1) have to file D papers, but the separation agreement is a legally binding document that states that we plan to file for D.
part of me wants to move on with my life without my H. part of me wants to cling to him and to our M. why did he give up so easily? why doesn't he want to fight for us? can he not see what he will be losing? he left me, he left our life together...and i have to deal with picking up the pieces myself. i know i'm capable and things will eventually go on. i'm ready to let go of the M we had. i don't know if it's what i really want. how do you know when you're in such an emotional haze, what you really want and what is just panic/fear/avoidance??
TTA: Why not ask him if he still wants the agreement. Tell him that you have hope and you would like to try the M.
You have said that before, I know. If he says he wants it, then sign it and move on unless he goes back or gives you other firm thoughts.
If not, then cancel Sunday.
Everything is a risk, and you've gone through a lot of hurt. He probably has, too. Remember 2008? You said that you had to leave the country to decide if you wanted to get together again. Pain is the name of this awful game that will eventually end one way or another.
Taking a risk can't hurt more than a divorce.
thanks, OTM. i know this is what he wants. i will meet with the L anyway and ask him again if this is what he wants prior to signing it (i have to sign it in front of a public notary anyway).
he's not giving me much of anything right now. maybe that will change by august, but...i'm not really holding my breath. maybe if i moved on and signed the thing i'd have a better idea. maybe if i saw that i could be happy with someone else i wouldn't have such a hard time with missing my H.
tta
part of me wants to move on with my life without my H. part of me wants to cling to him and to our M. why did he give up so easily? why doesn't he want to fight for us? can he not see what he will be losing? he left me, he left our life together...and i have to deal with picking up the pieces myself. i know i'm capable and things will eventually go on. i'm ready to let go of the M we had. i don't know if it's what i really want. how do you know when you're in such an emotional haze, what you really want and what is just panic/fear/avoidance??
We all have these thoughts.
You need to stop wondering why, how, could he do these things.
This will eat you up.
As for the separation, I don't think you should ask him again about M. He knows how you feel about it.
You say this is something he wants right?
Then you need to give it to him with a smile on her face.
My W said we should see a mediator to come up with a post nuptial agreement. At first I was angry b/c I thought my DBing was working and she thought differently. I remember saying to her "if you want a D then lets go up the the court house this week and get one!"
Maybe this was a turning point for me b/c I haven't received anything else from her about the post nup and it's been a month now.
You arguing with him about this will only make him want it more.
I haven't read your whole sitch but instead of asking him to work on M say something like this: I agree with you on this separation and I feel we both need time to work on ourselves b/c I don't want to go back to the way things were.
I may be saying the same thing to W very shortly.
I remember saying to her "if you want a D then lets go up the the court house this week and get one!"
That's great that it worked for you. If my W said that to me, I would go the other way. Each person has their own reaction/response to an event, but the event itself can be looked at as "what is it?"
Saying, "if you want it then..." is a threat unless the other person actually wants it. If that is the case, then it should be said to give clarity.
OTM
until reading this post I forgot i said that to her. Maybe you right W doesn't quite know what she wants.
Me, personally, if I want something or want to do something 99.9% of the time I follow through.
i just really don't even know how to respond to my H anymore. i got an email from him this morning about him coming to clear out our storage unit, and some financial stuff. it could have been an email from a complete stranger. at least it's making it easier to let go...
i meet with a L this weekend to go over the separation agreement before i sign it. i stopped wearing my rings about a week ago. i deleted all the photos from my FB account that he is in. i feel strangely numb about both of those things. i figured it would hurt more to delete him from my life. it hasn't so far.
i don't even know how to reach him anymore, so it makes it that much harder to determine how i should approach DB-ing with him. i feel like i'm interacting with someone i don't even know, so how am i supposed to know how he will react to something i try? i've been as supportive and patient and kind as i can be. i've tried the "i just want you to be happy" approach. i've tried NC, i haven't pursued, i held him when he cried. i just don't know where he is anymore.
Do what you haven't done. Try "pursing" by making the situation you want happen; try whatever you are comfortable.
But he doesn't even want to see me anymore...if I suggested we meet for coffee to discuss finances or something, he'd say it would be too hard for him to see me.
Also, I know you're supposed to do what works, but I have a hard time with the idea of pursuing a man who walked away from our M so quickly.
If you try, yes you are risking. Yes, he may say no. He may also not.
I wouldn't suggest this TTA, except for the fact that you said that you were certain he was in a depression or something of sorts.
I say that because when I want to run away, I know that being direct helps me. It helps because I have to choose between two options, it takes a lot of stress away. It is time to be direct, I think.
IF you agree, rememebering this is your life and your husbands, not mine, use choices that are "a or b".
For example, "would you like to see a MC now, or wait and see if things change after this agreement that I don't really agree with" tells information, gives your preference, and asks him to choose the course he's on or detour.
Remember, not trying is the only thing you can regret, but the way I suggested isn't the only way to try.
that's true, OTM, i would regret not trying. i guess i'm just not really sure how i'm feeling these days about my H and working on our M. i do think that he may be depressed, but i'm not a professional so i'm not sure...and it's also not my responsibility to pull him out of whatever dark mood he may be in. he is the only one who can help himself out of that. i can be supportive, but he hasn't taken my offer of support so far.
By being direct, you aren't pulling him out of anything. Giving extra effort because of his state of mind is just an acknowledgement that his sitch is off-kilter from the norm.
If you offer, he rejects, he's on his own.
If you offer, he accepts, he's on his own still, but now he has two things to work on (M + him)
If you do nothing, he's still on his own.
Now if things work out and he invites you back in his life, then he isn't alone.
So offering in choices, "would you like me to be there for you and growing together OR ..." are good that way. They can show him what he may not be seing.
Asking, do you want to do "x" can be a problem (I think) because it is like saying do you want to do work. No one does.
i see what you're saying...but i guess what i'm trying to say is i'm starting to doubt that i want to work things out. after the first time we separated, my H promised it would never happen again. a year went by and here i am again, same place, same situation. i don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone, constantly thinking, ok, when is he going to leave again? no matter how much i love him. i want more for myself than that. and i don't know if my H is capable of giving me that kind of security because he never has before.
BTW - Thanks for your comments on my thread...
"my H promised it would never happen again"
I'm sure that he meant it, too. I was pretty sure just knowing about ADHD that I would be doing much better asap. Nope. Lots of habits and traits are learned over years.
My IC was talking to me yesterday about this triangle thing between the bully-rescuer-victim and how there is a better way to deal with things when my W (or I) is stuck in these roles. I was going back in my head and wondering if he is stuck on one of these roles, too.
Anyhow, you can't want what you don't want. If you asked about working things out and things really weren't working out, you can say so and both of you can walk away having tried something different. If he says no, you can say you tried even when you weren't all there. If you don't try being more direct, well, you've done what you thought was best and he did what he thought was best. You can always move on without trying everything.
Going back to that triangle, I asked my IC 'what do can do if my W is always on the bad side of the triangle despite me doing it "right".'
She replied that I would need to decide if the R is what I want. It sounds like you want to make that decision. Do it if you are sure. If you are not, keep trying for a while. It is your life and future.
so...
i met with my L yesterday. the news is not good...for my H. she made some suggestions and advised me to move forward on a few financial issues that are going to cause BIG problems for my H, especially since he quit his job recently and has minimal income.
long story short, it comes down to 2 main issues: the motorcycle (which we purchased solely in my name but is in his possession) and some debt we incurred will need to be transferred over to my H's name. which for him will most likely mean selling the bike and moving in with some family members, or asking them to borrow the money and then paying them back, instead of paying me small amounts each month for the next 2 years. it all makes sense to me in the "it's what is best for me moving forward" sense, but at the same time, i know he will not react well since we verbally agreed to another arrangement.
he already emailed me back and sounded pretty bitter and now he wants me to call him. i have a feeling this is NOT going to be a good day and that things are going to get messy, very quickly.
Set your boundaries, TTA, but remember to keep the doors open for any path you mentally choose as an option...in other words, keep the desire to be bitter back at bay~
i don't want to be bitter at all, OTM. i had a long (tearful) phone conversation with the H this morning and good lord is that man angry. understandably. i'm happy to work with him to make some things easier in terms of the agreement, but for liability reasons, that motorcycle needs to be sold or he needs to take the title and loan on in his name.
he said things like he doesn't think i care about him anymore, and that i don't care what happens to him, and that if i wanted money for our debts in one lump sum, i'd just have to take him to court. he's so angry. he's so far gone. i'm so sad. i did NOT want to hurt him or make things between us tense and ugly. but i do have to look out for myself.
my heart breaks more every single day. even though - he is still reaching and trying to make me feel guilt. saying things were all his fault, or that he has had such a hard couple of months, or that over the last 5 years, nothing he's ever done has been good enough and it's still not.
i didn't say anything nasty in return. just said i was sorry he felt that way and that it broke me apart to even ask him these things for the sake of the agreement, but that this was what my lawyer advised me to do and i had to do what was best for me.
i'm ready for all of this to be over.
Thats a tough way to start the day. Who called?
Was he angry because of the motorcycle? Is there a way he could pay for it (borrow from parents?) and keep it? These would be good ways to show your intent.
Coincidentally, Number 8 posted something about the victim role that my IC went through with my last Thursday.
Relationships Explained The key that stuck with me is that if one person is the victim, they're actions push the other to be a "resucer" or a "bully". If you find and do the better way to respond, that can help them choose a better way to act (instead of playing victim), but they must choose to.
Maybe you can pass on the URL for him to investigate with his IC. I think if my IC had not gone through this with me on Thursday, I would have gone through with a complete separation as my W requested on Friday.
Little things
can make big changes.
However you respond, try to keep in mind that MOST men react this way, and that you feel that your H isn't acting like himself at all (depression, whatever).
Try to deeply examine the man. Is there enough there you really love that you could love again if he went back to it (or better)? My IC said that if you do things 'right', and you are sure, you give it time for change to occur, then if you are not satisfied enough, then you consider the R and if it is healthy.
he was angry because he wasn't expecting me to ask him for $9,000 in one lump sum and he wasn't expecting to have to sell the bike. he said he would sell the bike but that his parents will not loan him the money for the $9k, nor would he ask them for it, so if we wanted that money in one sum, we could take him to court.
i'm sure he just felt blindsided because that is not what we verbally agreed to and he wasn't expecting big changes like that to the agreement. he is certainly playing the "victim" role right now, saying he tried so hard to provide for us and to pay the bills and to go to MC for a year together, but that it's never enough and he's tired of it.
he even went so far as to say something along the lines of, i was giving it second thoughts over the last few weeks, but all this back and forth talk about agreements and lawyers and all that...i've totally given up hope. like it's MY fault now for trying to get the agreement that he asked me to sign to a point where i'm comfortable with signing it. of COURSE i'm going to take it to a lawyer to review before i sign it. so why he would get so bent out of shape when i come back with revisions, i do not know. i do know it's killing my motivation to resolve any of this.
he blames so much on my family, especially on my mother. saying she always made him feel like he wasn't good enough. i'm not saying those aren't valid feelings, but i don't see how my mom talking about not having grandchildren led to him walking away from our M twice in 2 years.
thank god i'm seeing my IC this week. i need it!!! and a martini.
Make sure to restate your point - you don't want this separation agreement or a divorce. You want to work hard on self improvement as he does the same. You did not want him to move out.
Remind him.
Consider telling him that you weren't ready for MC a month ago, but when you got ready he asked for the agreement and said it was hopeless.
Then, tell him he's asked for a legal agreement by law. You are willing to review legal issues. Blame the lawyer, not him or you.
If he makes a point, reconsider what your L said. This is your life to live, not theirs. The L will walk away happy if you get lots of money. Your H might be seeing this as, 'you're an adult....why do I have to pay anything?' and to some extent, a court may agree.
Agreements are agreements, if he agrees, it becomes law. That doesn't make it the right thing to do before God.
Have a very good skeep topngiht.
OTM, when i remind him that i want to try counseling or that i didn't want this, all he hears is blame. he says, i know this is MY fault because of MY choices. so my reminding him seems to only serve to guilt him at this point. i say, i'm willing to do MC, i do not want this agreement, he hears, you gave up on us and now you must pay.
i tried to reiterate to him that i only brought these issues up at the advise of the lawyer and it was never my intention to ask him to give me anything i knew he didn't have. this does not seem to help sway his anger.
i know i have control to tell the L what to put in the agreement. i don't have to ask for that lump sum, and i most likely won't. i don't want lots of money. i want my M back.
I think you're right...he probably hears that "threat".
Would it be good/helpful to ask him what he thought would be fair or right and why? Maybe one by one over coffee in a public place where he might be able to better manage his feelings.
If you don't want to ask for the lump sum, maybe that is something you could discuss in lieu of him selling the bike.
Retrouvaille had a point in saying feelings are not right or wrong. He feels attacked or hurt. Even if that is his fault, it isn't wrong that he feels that way. It is wrong that he can't see his responsibility in the mess. One day, he'll wake up and say, 'whoa...what was I thinking', but that day isn't there yet.
Are you able to use some empathy-like statements when you discuss these further...like, "You seem very upset. I know the bike meant a lot and I don't want you to have to lose it. I just want a fair settlement if you are sure you do not want to be married anymore. I'd rather we work on the M." (talk about you instead of blame, accept his feelings, offer reasons that acknowledge your need)
Your H is delirious. He walked away, kept a bike with a loan that is in your name, and expects you to spend money on court to get 9k back that is rightfully yours? Typical WAS BS. I suggest you don't discuss any financial arrangements with him without a presence of your L. Seems like the best would be to put your agreement in writing, making payout period as short as possible, and him waving rights for spousal support.
BTW - Do you have to do any of this in a separation agreement? I was just thinking...aren't assets a D agreement thing?
OTM, what my H thinks would be fair is what he and i discussed prior to him moving out. he wants to keep the bike and pay me monthly for it - so that i can use that money to then pay the bill since it comes to me. he also wants to pay me the 9k in monthly installments. when i challenged that (after talking to a L), he was livid. he clearly wants to walk away from this, keeping what he wants to keep, the way he wants to keep it.
i'm not interested in taking him to court for the lump sum...if he wants to pay it monthly, that's fine with me. it's his sense of entitlement that gets me. he tells me how hard he's worked to provide for me and how he worked so hard to make bigger payments on my debts (which, by the way, over half of which were charges he put on my credit card and line of credit), and how he thought he was being so fair and generous with the agreement as it was. how effed up it is of ME to even ask him for that money all upfront, especially knowing that he was in between jobs. i'm sorry for that, but i didn't make him leave and i certainly didn't make him quit his damn job. he walked away from our M and then walked away from his job, which puts my financial welfare at risk...i make a THIRD of what he makes and i depend on him to help me cover my expenses. but now he wants to act so self righteous and tell me that he's being such a hero by even giving me what he's offered to give me to begin with.
then he has the nerve to tell me that it's been INCREDIBLY PAINFUL for him to part with THE DOG (as if him giving up the dog to me should be enough of a condolence for the fact that he wants to divorce me or something)...oh really, H??? it's hard for you to part with the dog BUT NOT ME?? i didn't respond that way, i did tell him that i knew how hard it was for him and that i felt badly for having the dog.
i will have my L contact his sister (she is a family lawyer and is not acting as my H's "official" L, but i'm sure she's advising him to help him keep his costs down) because at this point it's a lot of back and forth BS. he had the nerve to tell me on the phone yesterday that he KNEW this wasn't going to be amicable. what is amicable about HIM wanting to leave, and then HIM outlining the terms of how that leaving will work out on paper??
I CALL YOUR BS, H.
i make a THIRD of what he makes and i depend on him to help me cover my expenses.
Have you figured out how to fix this? There is only so long he'll support you should he fully give in to his crazy desire to divorce.
You needn't apologize for your anger, TTA. You need to let it out somewhere, somehow...just not at him.
When I read what you wrote I think back to some things I told my W. I didn't mean to be mean, but I was. Mouth working before brain.
That doesn't make an excuse for some of the blame and ideas he's passed on. You both need to take responsibility for why lay where and move forward. In a M, debts are shared unless (sometimes) they are from before the M. So the bike debt is your debt, too. So is the bike. Accepting monthly payments to pay it off could work...why can't he get his own loan to keep it?
Anyhow, instead of calling his sister, can you go in there and meet her? She is your SIL and it might be good to get your feelings out in the raw to her. She might be able help you find ways to pass on the info in the best way.
i can't really "fix" my salary...i'm an admin assistant, and i don't have the experience to get a higher paying job doing something else (i'm in DC, and the job market is INCREDIBLY competitive). i can budget myself better to get by solely on what i make, but my point was that he agreed to make me monthly payments towards debt we incurred and then went and quit his job. not exactly the actions of a rational man who is putting my needs above his own. i can get along just fine on my salary, but it rubs me the wrong way that he promised to help me out and then quit his job in this economy because he was so unhappy. guess what - most people are unhappy at their jobs. but they need an income. so they suck it up. ugh.
i don't let my anger out at him. i wanted to lash out at him on the phone more than once yesterday, especially once he started blaming my mother for our M falling apart, saying she never welcomed him and she just wanted me to get married and have babies. my mom is a lot of things, but she loves my H with all her heart and that he could even think about putting one ounce of blame on her for him walking away from me time and time again is a load of CRAP. granted, i can't argue with the way he feels, if that's the way he truly feels, but i can't help but think that right now he's just in a place where he's looking to blame anyone but himself. but even when he said that on the phone i just told him i was very sorry that he felt like that but that both my parents love him very much and were hurting for us both.
i think my L talking with his sister will help clarify things between us on the agreement because right now, my L tells me something, i tell my H and he tells his sister. so i figure i can just cut my H and i out of that conversation and they can talk to one another. mostly we are just trying to figure out if we should file the agreement in DC or in virginia. my SIL knows how i feel - but my H's entire family takes a very big stance of non-involvement so she hasn't been there for me much. she'll listen when i call but she isn't going out of her way to reach out to me. i haven't spoken to his mother since december. they didn't even send a card on my birthday.
sometimes i am so ready to be over this whole thing and getting on with my life. and other times i want to crumple into a pile on the floor and mourn my loss. i really miss my H but his anger and his distance and attempts to blame tells me that he's already gone.
I hope you have a better day. Hope is probably a weak word - your post at the wee hours of the mourning tell me you're going to be tired~but what can you do when the ---- hits the fan?
Hi TTA,
I don't have insight for you right now, just hugs. Keep your head up; I know it's tough.
I'll be a bit more active in your thread. Been a little busy the last 6 weeks.
Hang in there.
thanks for the encouragement...
i haven't been sleeping well lately. been waking up in the middle of the night and just lying awake. tired is an understatement.
i did talk to my H's grandparents last night - they had called me last week on my bday to wish me well and clearly had no idea we were separated. so i waited until my H's family broke the news to them before i called them back because it's not my job to be the barer of THAT news. it was good to talk to them, it's been a while, and i know his grandmother loves me very much. she said she hasn't talked to my H in a long time but that she was praying we worked things out and she told me to work very hard at making things work. i didn't have the heart to really tell her how bad things are right now.
going to meet a high school friend for lunch. she's also gone through a D (her decision, not her H's) so it'll be nice to talk to her about what's going on with me since she's at least gone through the legal stuff.
sigh. i need a nap.
I hope your lunch turned out well.
RE the grandparents/others...maybe just say things on a responding level. For example, if she said "where is H?", tell her that he moved out and is living elsewhere". If she doesn't ask, don't tell.
I think that is fair, but also keeps H from hiding his head and pretending he doesn't need to be responsible. When the worst comes to pass, won't he just say that it is too late to reconsider? Right now, he can reconsider if anyone wants to encouage him that way.
Have you thought of sleeping pills for a couple days?
i actually just took some tylenol pm and feel the sweet heaviness of sleep sinking in. i loved talking to his grandmother. she was very encouraging...at a time where no one else is.
is it sad i'm wearing my wedding ring to sleep but take it off during the day?
Ya know, I slept one day hugging W & my blanket like Lionel. It felt GREAT. Didn't solve anything, but I loved it.
Enjoy the ring and the good memories. They're yours forever.
actually, if this all ends in D, i was thinking i would sell my ring and go on a month long trip to italy...
i actually just took some tylenol pm and feel the sweet heaviness of sleep sinking in. i loved talking to his grandmother. she was very encouraging...at a time where no one else is.
is it sad i'm wearing my wedding ring to sleep but take it off during the day?
Not at all. I took mine off for 6 weeks, but started wearing it again. Do what
you need to do to feel sane/normal.
actually, if this all ends in D, i was thinking i would sell my ring and go on a month long trip to italy...
Good plan. Again, do what you need to do to feel good.
yesterday when i got up, i made it all the way to the shower before i remembered to think about my H. today, he was in my thoughts the second my eyes opened. i don't so much even think about him in a longing way anymore...it's more like our situation is on my mind all the time. what will happen, how will this move forward, where will i end up? of course i still miss him but it's clear that we are no longer talking unless it's related to our separation agreement.
i saw my IC yesterday. she is helpful but she isn't one of those "take a stand for marriage" types of ICs. if i say i think i'm ready to let go and move on, she fully encourages that. so. while it's good to talk to her about my up and down feelings and emotions, i still am wary of the advise of a person who's never even met my H and only knows my side and what i'm feeling.
it hurts that H no longer reaches out to me to talk or lean on me. i know this is all part of the process, but that doesn't make it any easier.
i find myself thinking about another man a lot, too. i dated him briefly a few years ago and really liked him at the time. we've been in touch from time to time over the last 4 years (but never anything inappropriate and he knew i was married), and i ran into him on my way to work on monday. i don't want to use him as a distraction or a means to get over things with my H, but i also don't want to close the door on a possible relationship with this guy a few months down the road. but it does at least for now help me alieviate some of the grief i'm feeling...in the sense that i realize that i could potentially be excited about someone else, too.
"i know this is all part of the process, but that doesn't make it any easier."
I'm sure that not knowing exactly what would happen must be grueling. Keep up the patience.
have heard nothing from my H all week since monday...i feel very numb about it. it's hard to miss someone who isn't even there anymore. it's almost like i just miss the idea of him now. i think he probably needed the time to cool down after our legal talk on monday, but...part of me fears his silence. since he is unemployed now and i'm probably making more than him at this point, he could certainly come back to me and tell me he wants spousal support from ME. i really don't think he would do that, though...but then again, i don't really know this person he is now.
i have to wonder how it came to this. the silence feels worse than any harsh words ever could.
Hey trytry,
Going over your sitch, I feel that you are making small, positive moves in the right directions. You are trying and thinking of 180s, which is good. Your H definately appears to be a person who retreats fast when he is pursued. Although it is the hardest thing to do, keep giving the space and not pursuing.
From day one of DBing, I always kept in mind that while saving your marriage is not guaranteed, you are guaranteed a CHANCE of saving your marriage. I know that paperwork/agreements, etc make it that much harder. That is ever more reason to keep on GAL and focusing on yourself.
Try not to wonder how the situation came to what it is. Continue to look at today and tommorow and what you're going to do today to improve yourself.
Silence from him is hard to deal with, but you must maintain that silence until he breaks it. If the man you dated formerly brings some serenity to you, or gives you hope that you can get through this, go with it. But, take it slow.
thanks, hurt. my H does have a history of running from his/our problems, so maybe one of the reasons that i've been able to deal with this the way that i am is that i've dealt with it with him so many times before. i guess that, sadly, i wasn't that surprised when he told me he wanted to separate...since he's told me that before.
i find myself adjusting to life on my own again, and it's not all that bad. i get to spend more time on myself than i have in the last 5 years. i've dropped 10 pounds and got rid of the plates my H wanted for wedding gifts that i never liked to begin with. i go to church and spend time with my family without feeling guilty for doing it. i do miss him and our life together, but my single life has been decent enough that i haven't really needed to wallow.
certainly i'm grieving, but...each day is better than the day before.
i find myself thinking about another man a lot, too. i dated him briefly a few years ago and really liked him at the time. we've been in touch from time to time over the last 4 years (but never anything inappropriate and he knew i was married), and i ran into him on my way to work on monday. i don't want to use him as a distraction or a means to get over things with my H, but i also don't want to close the door on a possible relationship with this guy a few months down the road. but it does at least for now help me alieviate some of the grief i'm feeling...in the sense that i realize that i could potentially be excited about someone else, too.
This is good!
It's a great day when you realize that you are thinking about the
possibility of a R w/OM. When you realize that you can be interested in a man who isn't H. When you realize that the world is filled w/handsome, funny, kind, engaging men who would be grateful to be with YOU!
I had a brief fling this past month, which ended partially b/c I wasn't ready for it to be anything more. But it was good for me to be interested/excited about someone other than H.
After 7+ months of H's waffling, coldness, tearing me down, etc, it felt really good to have positive attention,
that I wanted, from an attractive man. Kind of the exact opposite of what H has been doling out.
Hope that is helpful.
thanks, ruined. i haven't really had much contact with this guy, mostly because i know i am not ready for anything more than a fling, and i don't want him to be a fling. although now that i've emailed with him a few times and run into him, i find myself thinking about him A LOT, and now it's almost like i've shifted my obsessing over my H to obsessing over this guy. he (OM) hasn't returned an email i sent him the other day, so i'm trying to take what i've learned here and not let him control my emotional state.
there are a lot of other fish in the sea, sure. i liked my fish just fine, but that's not the hand i've been dealt at the moment. i never thought i'd be looking at other fish again. other fish come with their own fishy issues and problems, no amount of shiny new-ness will ever make me forget that. hopefully i will get to a point in the next few weeks/months where i am ready to approach this, but i'm not pushing myself. OM extended an open ended invite for lunch that i know i want to take him up on...but not now while i'm still such a mess.
i haven't even signed a separation agreement at this point, and my H moved out just 3 months ago. that said, in my state, we're only 3 months shy of being eligible for filing for an uncontested D. in my mind, i'm still married, and though i'm interested in this guy...i struggle within myself at the idea of being with this guy, when i also want to DB and stand behind the vows that i made only 2.5 years ago.
early on, i was worried H was going to start dating or at least sleeping with other people, because, well, that's what guys do. i didn't even blink when a guy friend said to me earlier this week to just assume that my H had already done that (slept with someone)...so i think it's a good sign that i'm not throwing myself out there in an effort to "keep up" with what i think my H is doing.
I think you're looking at the OM situation in a very healthy and level-headed way. The key is that you're still focused on DBing and that will keep you on the right path no matter what your H or OM does.
I also commend your stand to not wrap yourself in "flings" right now. It would indeed only make things more complicated for yourself.
The positives you've found (losing weight, spending time w/family, focusing on yourself) are good steps forward. Keep it up!
had a good cry this afternoon...for no real reason. still haven't talked to my H, was just really missing him today. instead of sitting through it alone, though, i called my sister and just cried on the phone to her until i was done. felt good to get it out and not feel alone.
my heart is heavy today, but...one foot in front of the other. soldiering on.
I get the rough day stuff - for me I drove to a provincial park and stood on a cliff smelling the fresh air for 2 hours.
Who knows what will happen next...but it won't happen better or faster by imploding~nothing wrong with using your sister's love.
thanks, ruined. i haven't really had much contact with this guy, mostly because i know i am not ready for anything more than a fling, and i don't want him to be a fling. although now that i've emailed with him a few times and run into him, i find myself thinking about him A LOT, and now it's almost like i've shifted my obsessing over my H to obsessing over this guy. he (OM) hasn't returned an email i sent him the other day, so i'm trying to take what i've learned here and not let him control my emotional state.
You'll know when you are ready for anything. I do think that your first time at bat [the general you, not just you specifically] is meant to be more fling than R. But that's just my opinion.
If you feel like your obsessing over OM, then that is probably a strong indicator that you aren't ready yet. Or, that was how I felt about my OM. Too much, too soon = I shouldn't be doing this yet.
there are a lot of other fish in the sea, sure. i liked my fish just fine, but that's not the hand i've been dealt at the moment. i never thought i'd be looking at other fish again. other fish come with their own fishy issues and problems, no amount of shiny new-ness will ever make me forget that. hopefully i will get to a point in the next few weeks/months where i am ready to approach this, but i'm not pushing myself. OM extended an open ended invite for lunch that i know i want to take him up on...but not now while i'm still such a mess.
Know what you mean.
And it is a good idea to wait until you think you may be ready. If you're feeling a mess, it's hard to imagine not messing up someone else's life. Again, just speaking from my own recent personal experience.
i haven't even signed a separation agreement at this point, and my H moved out just 3 months ago. that said, in my state, we're only 3 months shy of being eligible for filing for an uncontested D. in my mind, i'm still married, and though i'm interested in this guy...i struggle within myself at the idea of being with this guy, when i also want to DB and stand behind the vows that i made only 2.5 years ago.
That's been a rough one for me. Want to save M, yet ... here I am (was) w/OM.
I do think it is good to have interest/attraction in OM, as it shows a modicum of hope for the future. Sort of much as I love H, want M, well, if it doesn't work out, there are other options available. It's a weird dichotomy.
early on, i was worried H was going to start dating or at least sleeping with other people, because, well, that's what guys do. i didn't even blink when a guy friend said to me earlier this week to just assume that my H had already done that (slept with someone)...so i think it's a good sign that i'm not throwing myself out there in an effort to "keep up" with what i think my H is doing.
Keeping up/getting revenge/whatever you want to call it:
bad idea. Unfair to the OP, and selling yourself short, imo. In my sitch, (sexual) tension w/OM had been afoot since Nov., about the same time I could no longer deny to myself that H was sleeping w/OW. Still, waited 4 months until I was ready to sexual w/someone. Still felt guilty, though.
More proof that I'm not ready yet.
I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume your H has/is sexually involved. If nothing else, you won't be blindsided & devastated
if you find that to be the case. You have to do what you feel is best for you, when you feel it is best for you. Regardless of what H is doing. You are both in different places, so what is right for you may be [
is?] radically different than what is right for him.
Hope that is helpful. (((tta)))
thanks for the helpful and thoughtful words, ruined. it hurts thinking that my H is potentially sexually involved with someone else when we haven't even signed anything and his reasoning behind our separation has never been that he wanted to see someone else...but i realise that his actions are beyond my control and i can't let myself waste energy on worrying about it. i'm dealing with things my way, he needs to deal with things his way.
i have actually hooked up with 2 people since being separated (i haven't slept with anyone, just fooled around - ha! i feel like a teenager saying that!), and like you, i felt horribly guilty, which tells me i'm not ready for that yet. the attention and flirting is nice, and certainly distracts me, but...right now my focus is me moving forward, and i don't want to move forward with a guilty conscience, no matter WHAT my H is doing or not doing.
i certainly don't want to pull this OM into the drama of my life right now...i had hoped we could exchange friendly emails from time to time, but even that he seems unresponsive to. i think he is cautious about getting wrapped up in my drama, so i can respect that and not approach him until i know i'm ready. i just hope he isn't married and has 3 children by then.
i'm hopeful this week will be better than the one before it...this burden in my heart is getting hard to carry around!
Burdens don't go away on their own - they need to be carried to wherever they are going. I don't think you're going to get there until the D either ends or H moves back.
In the meantime, GAL isn't about hooking up. You've got a lot of emotions to handle as it is, and I understand opening up options, just be careful TTA...
thanks, OTM. those hookups were only twice and only one time each. i'm not making it a habit.
i spoke with my L this morning, she spoke with my SIL, who is a lawyer and who helped my H draft up a separation agreement (in an effort to reduce lawyer fees for us both). apparently, she called my SIL (who i love very much) an idiot, which of course did not go over well with my SIL or my H. so there was that fire to put out. i spoke on the phone with my H, it's apparent that he has checked out of the idea of any reconciliation between us.
i got the "two people can love each other very much but that doesn't mean they have a healthy marriage" speech. he wants to end this as "amicably" as possible so we can just walk away. unscathed, right? just pat ourselves on the back and say, oh well, we tried? after our phone conversation i got a very tender "i don't want things to be this way and i want us to still respect each other so let's please meet on the middle on the terms of this agreement" email from him. yeah. otherwise known as "please don't make me cosign a loan with my parents so that i can continue to live in my apartment, on my own, with my car, and my motorcycle and go on with my life like you never existed."
i was about to leave work early so i could go home and cry and be upset. then i remembered that my H is not responsible for my emotional state and that i have vowed to stop placing my personal happiness in things outside of my control. but that doesn't mean that i won't go cry in the bathroom.
i got the "two people can love each other very much but that doesn't mean they have a healthy marriage" speech.
I got that speech,too -- from my IC. She said that I would have to evaluate if the R is healthy based on our M dynamic.
I responded that I would when I was sure that I really had tried and given both of us time to improve. Then, my W re-engaged that dynamic by telling me she was going to need months of sleeping with the kids instead of me. While she has backed down, I have not yet and I am living partly separated.
The emotions tear the heart, don't they? But, after the cry, get back up. He's angry and saying things to get things the way he thinks would be most fair, not most kind.
thanks for the helpful and thoughtful words, ruined. it hurts thinking that my H is potentially sexually involved with someone else when we haven't even signed anything and his reasoning behind our separation has never been that he wanted to see someone else...but i realise that his actions are beyond my control and i can't let myself waste energy on worrying about it. i'm dealing with things my way, he needs to deal with things his way.
Exactly.
Despite that knowledge, the heart kicks, screams & fights it. It kills me that my H decided that
I was going to be celebate, but he sure wasn't.
i have actually hooked up with 2 people since being separated (i haven't slept with anyone, just fooled around - ha! i feel like a teenager saying that!), and like you, i felt horribly guilty, which tells me i'm not ready for that yet. the attention and flirting is nice, and certainly distracts me, but...right now my focus is me moving forward, and i don't want to move forward with a guilty conscience, no matter WHAT my H is doing or not doing.
I second that!
i certainly don't want to pull this OM into the drama of my life right now...i had hoped we could exchange friendly emails from time to time, but even that he seems unresponsive to. i think he is cautious about getting wrapped up in my drama, so i can respect that and not approach him until i know i'm ready. i just hope he isn't married and has 3 children by then.
That is all you can do. It is unfair & unreasonable to expect OM to deal w/all our drama/baggage/crazy, etc. Stinks, but the song remains the same.
i'm hopeful this week will be better than the one before it...this burden in my heart is getting hard to carry around!
It will. Every new day gets you closer to being healed. Every new day, the load lightens.
yesterday was a hard day...between my L calling my SIL an idiot and having to calm both my SIL and H down about that, the back and forth with my H on some financial aspects of our separation agreement, and crying on the phone to my parents about how overwhelmed i'm feeling...it was a really draining day for me.
i keep hoping, maybe tomorrow will be better, maybe tomorrow will be ok and i won't hurt this much. but as soon as my eyes opened this morning, i was hit with the pain like a ton of bricks. i talked to my H for a long time on the phone yesterday and he was so angry that things weren't going his way. so angry that i wouldn't just sign the agreement as is and let him keep his motorcycle, and our debt in my name. to be fair, i was very upset that my L had talked to my SIL like that on the phone (my SIL is a lawyer, too), but my H said he's gone from hurt and sad to upset and DISGUSTED at how things have progressed.
i think i'm perfectly within my rights to seek counsel before signing ANYTHING and i would be an IDIOT not to. my L looked at the agreement, made some suggestions that act in my best interest, and H threw a fit that i would come back to him with "demands." he said things like, i don't want to hate you, i want to at least walk away from this with respect for you...as if me making sure that HIS motorcycle doesn't put ME in financial jeopardy is my way of sticking it to him?? he says he understands that i have to look out for myself, but he thinks he's been so fair and honorable in offering me what he's offered me, since he is "in between jobs" right now (translation: he QUIT his job).
it's enough to make me want to throw my hands up and tell him to go to hell. although i guess that wouldn't be very "me" and i know i'd regret something like that. i wanted to say a hundred times to him yesterday, why should i have to pay for a choice that YOU made, why should i be the one left hanging when YOU wanted to walk away? but i didn't. i didn't react. i did cry a lot. talking to him is too hard. i can't hear his voice without crying.
it's been almost exactly a month since i've seen him, sat next to him, touched him, wiped away his tears. and now HE is disgusted with ME. makes total sense, right?
here's to tuesday not sucking as much as monday...
That sounds so tough.
Is there an active way for you to communicate what you're thinking to him without judgement "you did..." comments? Something that could tell him you don't want to see him hurt and want a healthy marriage with him or whatever you're thinking.
i don't know, OTM. even in the stages of working out the agreement, he keeps saying, see, i try so hard and it's never enough...still not enough. i'm sure he feels like negotiating the terms of our agreement is just one more example of how i feel like nothing he ever does is good enough. but i'd be living in la-la land if i accepted his terms and let him ride around on a motorcycle that i was liable for.
he has told me straight up that i may not be able to see it now, but that this is best for both of us in the long run. that we can love and respect each other, but that doesn't mean we can share our lives together. in an email yesterday, he said he couldn't ignore what had happened (what? him leaving me 4 times?), who we were, and he couldn't "come back" to our M. whatever that means.
my mother insists that he just doesn't want to be married. that the mistakes i made weren't deal breakers and that he just wanted to walk away from this with his hands clean. i'm inclined to agree with her for once. i have my faults for sure, but, i've always been faithful, i adore him, i support him (obviously not financially) and now it's MY turn to say that no matter what i do...it's just never enough for him.
in an email yesterday, he said he couldn't ignore what had happened (what? him leaving me 4 times?),
Why don't you ask him to give you a list. No defenses. Just a list of things you've done to give you a sense of closure.
i don't know, OTM. even in the stages of working out the agreement, he keeps saying, see, i try so hard and it's never enough...still not enough. i'm sure he feels like negotiating the terms of our agreement is just one more example of how i feel like nothing he ever does is good enough. but i'd be living in la-la land if i accepted his terms and let him ride around on a motorcycle that i was liable for.
Exactly. H wants things the way his way. No surprise there. The terms of agreement
are the consequence of his choices.
he has told me straight up that i may not be able to see it now, but that this is best for both of us in the long run. that we can love and respect each other, but that doesn't mean we can share our lives together. in an email yesterday, he said he couldn't ignore what had happened (what? him leaving me 4 times?), who we were, and he couldn't "come back" to our M. whatever that means.
Blah, blah, blah, script, BS, justification, shirking any/all responsibility. I've gotten this speech from H myself. Every time I hear it, I picture a clucking hen. Helps me not internalize/believe the b.s. my H is throwing in the path.
my mother insists that he just doesn't want to be married. that the mistakes i made weren't deal breakers and that he just wanted to walk away from this with his hands clean. i'm inclined to agree with her for once. i have my faults for sure, but, i've always been faithful, i adore him, i support him (obviously not financially) and now it's MY turn to say that no matter what i do...it's just never enough for him.
I feel you. I'm there w/my H, too. The first few months, I agonized over
everything my H said I did wrong. [And boy was that a long, frequently updated list] Now, I've been thinking alot about the things H did wrong [and that gets updated frequently, as well]
You are right: the mistakes you made were just that, mistakes. They
become deal breakers when WA needs a reason to leave. You know the truth about your M/H. Don't let [well meaning] other's tell you differently [even the board].
Hang in there. (((tta)))
Blah, blah, blah, script, BS, justification, shirking any/all responsibility. I've gotten this speech from H myself. Every time I hear it, I picture a clucking hen. Helps me not internalize/believe the b.s. my H is throwing in the path.
it's funny you say that, ruined...my H used to cluck at me when he thought he was getting nagged. we would both end up laughing. i'll just have to apply the clucking to the nonsense coming out of HIS mouth, now.
i know my H is just grasping for straws now, looking for reasons to leave, or to justify his leaving. if this is all the commitment that i get out of him, then i'm fully prepared to let go with both hands. he's not even leaving over any big issue...imagine if we hit an actual bump in the road! well, i don't think it's over any big issue. he thinks it's over the fact that nothing he ever does is enough and i don't accept him for who he is.
i WOULD accept him for who he is if he would just stop being such a pain in the a$$!!!
but i'd be living in la-la land if i accepted his terms and let him ride around on a motorcycle that i was liable for.
By no means do I think you should give in to irrational demands, you both need fairness. I don't know if it will ever be truly fair because emotions are involved.
Now isn't time to punish with consequences. Just be fair and you'll not regret that.
Blah, blah, blah, script, BS, justification, shirking any/all responsibility. I've gotten this speech from H myself. Every time I hear it, I picture a clucking hen. Helps me not internalize/believe the b.s. my H is throwing in the path.
Number8 was talking about "rational detatchment". This seems to make sense - not full detatchment...rational. Able to feel, but not let your feelings effect decision making. It may be all BS, but to him, it is real. If there was only a pill for that...~
my mother insists that he just doesn't want to be married. that the mistakes i made weren't deal breakers and that he just wanted to walk away from this with his hands clean.
Don't forget - from the getgo your mom also hasn't supported trying anything with him. Make sure not to be swayed to any direction except the one you decide calmly and carefully to head in. You can change directions later, but you don't want to be blaming anyone subconsciously with "if I had only" or "I wonder if I had".
Try for a good sleep, TTA.
i'm actually feeling relatively positive today. i think things with the separation agreement will be resolved by the end of the week and i can sign the damn thing and move forward with my life. even if my H came back tomorrow, i really don't know that working things out with him would be best for me. he has let me down and left me behind too many times and for the first time, i've realized that my H never really let go and surrendered to loving me in an unselfish way. maybe i never did the same for him, but i think i lived in fear for most of our time together...fear of what might happen or what could happen again. some things happened early on in our R (way before we got married) that i never really got over, that i never really forgave, and i was never really fully myself within our R.
i don't think my H is a bad person...i think he has a lot of growing up to do. he may not learn a damn thing from any of this, but that is outside of my control. i have learned a lifetime's worth of lessons in the last 3 months and i will carry that in my heart for the rest of my life. i can't worry about how he will move forward in his life, because he's chosen to do that without me. my happiness comes from within ME, and my H has nothing to do with that. i can have a smile on my face and a sense of inner peace that he has no claim over.
that said, it won't be easy to sign those papers and change my name back (no WAY am i keeping his last name), but i'll do those things knowing that i will be all the better for it, and my H will still be the same old person, destined to fall into the same trap again and again, thinking that he can solve his problems by getting rid of the relationship...never thinking the problem may be within him.
and as if to prove my point...i got an email from my H today where the entire first paragraph was all about how hard it was for him to have given up the dog (he is staying with me because he is a certified therapy dog and we do therapy visits together several times a month), and how much he loved the dog, and how special the dog was, and how it stung for him to hear from a friend who had seen me post something about the dog on facebook, and to please not let my mom talk badly about my H to the dog, and he knew i would give him a good life...
really, H? it was SO HARD AND PAINFUL for you to give up the dog, yet he could walk away from his WIFE, who he vowed his LIFE TO, like it was nothing more than an every day business transaction??
of course, i did not say that to him. i only responded with sympathy towards his loss and gratitude that he agreed to let me keep the dog. in all honesty, i probably would have let him keep the dog in the end, but he went and got himself another dog weeks ago, so...that is just about where my feeling sorry for him ends. it's just you and me now, dog of mine. i wonder if i have to fill out any legal paperwork to change his last name, too?
really, H? it was SO HARD AND PAINFUL for you to give up the dog, yet he could walk away from his WIFE, who he vowed his LIFE TO, like it was nothing more than an every day business transaction??
Why not tell him? He probably doesn't even know how bad it sounds...let him know so he doesn't keep doing it to you or to others. Be nice, but honest. It certainly couldn't hurt.
it could hurt, OTM, since everything out of my mouth to him apparently makes him feel like nothing he does is good enough. i know it wasn't EASY for him to come to this decision (separation), but instead of him telling me how much he's hurting over losing ME, i get to hear about how hurt he is for losing the DOG.
let me tell you how loved that makes me feel!
and as if to prove my point...i got an email from my H today where the entire first paragraph was all about how hard it was for him to have given up the dog (he is staying with me because he is a certified therapy dog and we do therapy visits together several times a month), and how much he loved the dog, and how special the dog was, and how it stung for him to hear from a friend who had seen me post something about the dog on facebook, and to please not let my mom talk badly about my H to the dog, and he knew i would give him a good life...
really, H? it was SO HARD AND PAINFUL for you to give up the dog, yet he could walk away from his WIFE, who he vowed his LIFE TO, like it was nothing more than an every day business transaction??
of course, i did not say that to him. i only responded with sympathy towards his loss and gratitude that he agreed to let me keep the dog. in all honesty, i probably would have let him keep the dog in the end, but he went and got himself another dog weeks ago, so...that is just about where my feeling sorry for him ends. it's just you and me now, dog of mine. i wonder if i have to fill out any legal paperwork to change his last name, too?
Wow, what a turd.
Totally agree with you; how very, very, very
difficult for H.
Keep
your dog. Especially in light of H getting 'replacement' dog.
I raised H's dog the first 9 months we had her. H worked 12+ hrs a day/6 days a week. I spent every single waking moment w/her. She's totally my girl, but she was H's XMas gift, so
technically his. It kills me that H has her. Along w/house, OW, plenty of cake to eat, etc.
You know that your dog will always be true!!!
I'm with you, TTA.
The WAS will take anything that we say and turn it around to make it mesh with their f'd up view of things in their mind. Our feelings mean NOTHING.
Don't give him the satisfaction of knowing he hurt you.
it could hurt, OTM, since everything out of my mouth to him apparently makes him feel like nothing he does is good enough. i know it wasn't EASY for him to come to this decision (separation), but instead of him telling me how much he's hurting over losing ME, i get to hear about how hurt he is for losing the DOG.
let me tell you how loved that makes me feel!
Another thing, duh, how'd I miss this?!? It's jumping off the page, waving a flag & yelling.
Perhaps H is transferring his feelings of loss over you/M to the dog?
Another thing, duh, how'd I miss this?!? It's jumping off the page, waving a flag & yelling.
Perhaps H is transferring his feelings of loss over you/M to the dog?
this is a good point, ruined...but while i'm sure some of this is true, my H really, really REALLY REALLY loved our dog. they had a very deep bond and i actually really do feel afflicted at separating the two of them. it was my H's idea. i think it was more like his way of saying, see, i can't be that much of an A-hole if i'm willing to let you keep the dog. or sort of like a condolence...hey, i'm leaving you, and i feel awful about it, so i'm going to let you have the dog.
clearly the animal itself has no say, and i think that given the choice, the dog would have wanted to be with my H. i felt selfish keeping him from his daddy. he's learning to live without him, though, and doesn't sit by the door waiting for my H to come home anymore, but he's not the same dog, either. it's helped me more than i can say to have him in the house waiting for me and i know he'll be fine and that the therapy work we do is important, but...i guess knowing that just doesn't make this any easier.
I raised H's dog the first 9 months we had her. H worked 12+ hrs a day/6 days a week. I spent every single waking moment w/her. She's totally my girl, but she was H's XMas gift, so technically his. It kills me that H has her. Along w/house, OW, plenty of cake to eat, etc.
ruined, that's a tough spot to be in...TECHNICALLY, my H is the one who's name is on the adoption papers, so he could have claimed the dog as his own. i really think my H let me keep the dog to make himself feel better about leaving, though. either way, i'll take MY DOG. my H can feel however he wants to feel, that's not really my problem to deal with anymore.
had an AMAZING massage last night and spent some quality time with my girls (and a bottle of wine!) before heading back home. sometimes i am SO OK with starting my life over and sometimes...i feel like i'll do anything to avoid going back to that empty apartment (well...the dog is there!). i wish this is something i could just scrub off of my skin once and be done with it, instead of feeling up one minute and down the next for who knows how long.
my rational mind knows i'll be fine and that i'm holding on to thin air at this point...but it's like my H just asked me to stop loving him just like that, and i don't work that way. this is so, so real to me now...i really thought he'd come running back by now, or ask for one last chance, or call me crying about the huge mistake he'd made. i know there's nothing i can do about his being gone but keep living my life and find love again. everything i need to make me happy i already posses within me. but letting go is a very, very difficult and painful thing to do.
my rational mind knows i'll be fine and that i'm holding on to thin air at this point...but it's like my H just asked me to stop loving him just like that, and i don't work that way. this is so, so real to me now...i really thought he'd come running back by now, or ask for one last chance, or call me crying about the huge mistake he'd made. i know there's nothing i can do about his being gone but keep living my life and find love again. everything i need to make me happy i already posses within me. but letting go is a very, very difficult and painful thing to do.
Absolutely. I feel the same. Much as I'd like to be w/H, that isn't an option
right now. At this point, I gotta be the one that loves me, much like all of us in these crummy sitches.
I think the path back to reconciliation/M is contingent on loving yourself first. Begging, pleading, reasoning, etc. WAS to reconsider definitely not the way to go. I gave up the hope that H would see the error of his ways and ask for another chance months ago. It may happen down the line, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.
Now, I'm walking my path, he's walking his and perhaps they will re-converge in the future. And that is applicable to you as well. You have the right attitude. The bolded above - right on. You get it. That statement, that truth alone is proof that you will be ok, either with your H or without your H.
I think that is the powerful force that just may help H find you again!
had a bit of a rough night last night...i was supposed to meet up with friends, but i cancelled and lied about why. i stayed home and read, watched mad men until 2am, and gorged myself on old notes and letters from my H that i keep in a box under the bed. i went to sleep with an ice pack on my face, my eyelids were so swollen.
bad choice, i know. backsliding, i know. i've just felt so numb to what's going on around me lately, that it actually felt GOOD to feel SOMETHING, even though it was pain.
i thought a lot about my H and about our M. i've come to the conclusion that this really isn't about me at all...it's about him. it's always been about him. my H isn't a bad person, and i know he never set out to break my heart this way...but he's never really been fully present in our M. for the last 5 years, i've sat across the table from him, and i would look at him and think, who is this stranger, who is this person, and feel like i didn't know the first thing about him. as well as you know someone, sometimes you don't know them at all. i think my H's intentions were good (although they say the road to hell...), and i think that at the beginning, my H thought he was capable of being in a solid, happy M. what both of us forgot was that my H is not one who likes to be tied down. the last 6 months or so, the conversations about mortages and down payments and babies, i think all that did was point out to my H that he was a glaring failure at giving me the "normal life" that i wanted.
he's always been one to cut and run when things got too complicated...i've mentioned before on this thread that this is the 4th time we've broken up in 5 years together, all initiated by him. every time, he'd come running back. not this time. perhaps this time he's realized what i've always seen and never wanted to admit: that while he loves me, that love also weighs him down and forces him to admit failure, time and time again. and not just failure with our M. failure with his businesses, failure with his jobs...failure with him living up to who i wanted him to be. this isn't about the fact that i nagged him to quit smoking or that we would fight about money from time to time, or that he left his dirty socks on the floor one too many times.
we got down to the wire, to the BIG QUESTION of starting a family, and i think he saw that as the final failure, the final way to disappoint me and let me down. i think he saw the finality of having children and came to his senses about who he is. the sh*tty thing is that he used ME as the scapegoat, trying to justify all this by saying that we just couldn't work things out, we just weren't meant to be together, i needed too much from him, he couldn't be the person i needed/wanted him to be...but i think he is just scared out of his mind to take on the responsibility of being someone's father and being fully, completely, utterly accountable for a life outside of his own.
for years i've felt like my H kept me at arm's length. i was close enough to feel close, but not so close that i could see his cards. he never fully surrendered to loving me because that kind of love scares him...because he's never had it. he told me over and over that he tried so hard to make things work, to make me happy, but it was always on the surface and never what i really wanted. sure, the movies and the day trips on the bike were nice, the dinners at home, the flowers...but what i always wanted was a H who was fully present for me. who would linger in bed with me on saturday mornings instead of jumping out of bed to get to his office. who would lay in the grass in the shade with me on a blanket, and just read or enjoy a quiet picnic lunch...instead of someone who insisted that he hated grass and couldn't be bothered to put his iphone down.
i know this is long and probably boring to most everyone but me, but it's nice to get it out on "paper" after milling it around in my head all night. my H has been telling me since january that i may not see it now, and it may hurt now, but that this will be best for both of us in the long run. that it's best that we split now before we have children and property to argue over. i guess i should be grateful that he's finally come to terms with who he is and who he's not, and what he's capable of giving me. it saddens me, though, to know that he may go through life never fully surrendering to that kind of love, never fully letting another person posses his heart, or understand his soul as they do their own. it's silly but i was watching mad men last night until the wee hours of the morning and i so often see things in the main character, don draper, that i see in my H. and in the episode i saw last night, someone said to him, the only thing stopping you from being happy is the feeling that you're alone (despite him having a beautiful, loving wife and doting children and a successful career and the admiration of his peers and colleagues). and he said, but what if i am? i have to wonder if my H feels that way...that even when he's with other people, he is alone in all of this. i get that sense from him and it breaks my heart.
it helps curb the anger and the "how could you's" when i look at it this way and when i see his suffering instead of my own. i miss him every minute of every day...my heart breaks for him time and time again. he told me not long ago that he wished he could be "normal" and just live life the way everyone else seemed content to do. but that's not who he is, and i can't be mad about that and the greatest way for me to love him and honor who he is is to let go with both hands and let him fly away.
interesting weekend...went out with my girls on friday night and ended up having to ask my H via text message if he could leave the bar he was at. i had plans to meet about 20 people there (which i mentioned to my sister in the elevator which was overheard by a mutual friend of both my H and I who lives in my building and was on the elevator with us), and later got a call from this mutual friend that my H and his buddy were already up at that bar and had asked him to join them. so he wanted to avoid any awkward run in business. my H had no way of knowing i was planning on being there, but i couldn't ask 20 people to relocate because i didn't want to run into him, so it got a little weird.
he texted me about 30 minutes after i asked him if he and his 2 friends could go somewhere else, saying that he had left. he also said something along the lines of "so i guess this is where it gets strange." i answered back that i thought it was pretty strange before. tried to have a good time when i went out that night, but he was weighing pretty heavily on my mind.
i emailed him saturday morning to say i was feeling weird about asking him to leave and to let him know a good friend of ours had recently had her baby. i also said "i miss you" in the email...his response was a one sentence reply: yeah i saw the baby, cute, no worries about the other night, none of this is easy.
no mention of missing me, no acknowleding that i'd even said it. i don't know what i expect from him at this point, but i've tried every other approach, so i thought maybe i'd reach out to him and let him know how much i miss him...and i got nothing in return. who is this man? who is this person who can walk away from me and not look back, who can promise me years and years together and let it all slip away and leave me to start all over again? who is this man who swore to protect me and to make me feel safe, who can turn around and be the one to hurt me so much?
i cried a lot this weekend. A LOT. took some codine to get to sleep on saturday, but all that did was make me feel sick. i don't want to have to worry all the time about being out and running into him. i don't want to have to worry about seeing him on a date or with another woman on the back of his motorcycle some day. i want him to move far away, so i don't have to think about him, or talk to him, or maybe one day run into him.
how do you get to a point in your life when someone who was once the center of your gravity becomes a distant stranger?
I just skimmed this thread, so forgive me if my judgement isn't correct here, but to me it sounds like you allowed your happiness to be dependent on your H, and that you let your life revolve around him.
We all make mistakes, and your M being in trouble isn't about the nagging about socks being left on the floor. Your nagging about these things seems more like "Look, I made my life all about you, can't you at least pick up your darned socks".
If I am correct, this is why you feel lost. You need to figure out how to make yourself happy and love yourself and set boundaries so that you don't make your happiness all about somebody else. Also, if I am correct, you are probably experiencing a spiritual crisis and identity crisis, and those can be tough for a while. It's tough because growing to be a happy healthy interdependent/independent person (which is what will ultimately make you happy) who loves themself and who feels they deserve better means overcoming a lot of negative programming and letting go of a lot of personal defenses that aren't working for you.
Maybe this will help:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/
ended up having to ask my H via text message if he could leave the bar he was at.
Why?
Maybe seeing you would make him jealous. Maybe not. I really believe you are strong enough. You ended off crying over it, so having him leave didn't help.
I may have got this wrong, but in a way, it is kind of like bullying - "I'm coming so you need to go". It is his life, and you have yours. Whether your work it out or not, do you want to feel that pain each time you see him.
Reverse rolls, would you be writing 'how could he tell me to leave?'
It hurts to have hope so close, but no one seems to be able to touch it. Don't run your life scared of the beauty you two once shared.
i emailed him saturday morning to say i was feeling weird about asking him to leave and to let him know a good friend of ours had recently had her baby. i also said "i miss you" in the email...his response was a one sentence reply: yeah i saw the baby, cute, no worries about the other night, none of this is easy.
no mention of missing me, no acknowleding that i'd even said it. i don't know what i expect from him at this point, but i've tried every other approach, so i thought maybe i'd reach out to him and let him know how much i miss him...and i got nothing in return. who is this man? who is this person who can walk away from me and not look back, who can promise me years and years together and let it all slip away and leave me to start all over again? who is this man who swore to protect me and to make me feel safe, who can turn around and be the one to hurt me so much?
TTA, I know it's hard, and you do miss your H. But from now on, no telling H that, ok? Your H
probably does miss you, but you'll be the last one he admits that to.
I understand the trying to reach out. But when you did, H
pushed you away and it made you feel worse. To avoid that in the future, let H be the one to come forward; you retreat. It's like when you chase your boxer - he runs. But, if in mid-chase,
you stop and run away yourself, boxer chases you. (I assume your dog does this too!)
how do you get to a point in your life when someone who was once the center of your gravity becomes a distant stranger?
For me, and this is cold, sleeping w/OM helped add some more distance for me.
H had been doing it for 7 months by the time I finally did it. I never took on much in the way of new talent, but thought, at some point, I'm going to have to, or remain celibate forever.
Before that happened, when ever I felt myself wanting to reach out, I just pictured H w/OW [a/k/a fat f&*king wh*re]. Remember how H had me taking care of dog so he could take OW to NYC for her b-day. And how H did
nothing for my b-day last year, other than a begrudgingly short appearance @ the party that
my friends threw me.
In the beginning of my sitch, I idealized H. Now, I remember his greatest hits of un-awesome. I remember that H chose ffw over everything; it helps me to maintain distance. H's decisions are about HIM, not you.
Hope that helps.
TTA,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I definitely see a few similarities in our sitches. I am still muddling through how to deal with all of this myself.
[/quote]
TTA, I know it's hard, and you do miss your H. But from now on, no telling H that, ok? Your H probably does miss you, but you'll be the last one he admits that to. [quote]
I have to agree with RNM here. Your text to ask him to leave the bar also reminded him that you are hurting. It would be better for him to wonder if you are having fun, than to know that you are having a difficult time. You may have a horrible day of sadness, but try to have one or two good things to tell if he happens to ask how things are going/how you are doing.
best wishes, Reeling
wow. what a difference a week makes. have had a really positive, productive week this week. minimal thinking about my H. have not heard a word from him since last weekend. not talking helps me not think about him. not sure if that's good or bad. have my L working on new terms for separation agreement and keeping myself really busy with fun activities. exercising as much as i can and doing my best to just move on with my life. have not cried about my H or my situation ONCE this week! i geniunely feel like i'm really starting to move forward and accept the idea that things with my H are over. and i'm feeling relatively ok about that.
making VERY SLOW progress with another man that i'm interested in. he's currently in a relationship and far be it from me to break that up or involve myself in any kind of physical relationship with him while he's dating someone else, but...i've at least put it out there that i'm single and interested and i know i've peaked his interest. i'm just letting it go at that. no chasing. no desperation. i actually like this person so i'm more than willing to take it as slow as need be, if it ever even does end up happening at all.
but even if it doesn't, that's fine. i'm taking responsibility for my happiness and not letting so much of it fall to external forces, like my H. i don't know what's going on in his life and i'm not going to ask. i don't really care. outside of his general health and happiness, i don't really care to know what his life is like anymore. i don't need to put myself through the agony of wondering if he's with someone, if he's slept with someone...so i refuse.
i'm feeling confident in myself in a way that i haven't in a long time. once i get this damn agreement signed, i think i'll finally be able to breathe easy again, knowing that i'm free of all this and can fully move on and start healing instead of hurting. i tried my best and my H wasn't interested. i could spend the next 2 years grieving and fighting against that, or i could accept it and seek out another path to happiness. i thought he was my partner on the path, but he had another idea. i can't control that. so i'll let it go and leave him to find a new partner. and i will actually wish him well on that journey. i loved him with every fiber of my being at one point. i thought i would always love him. but i'm finding that he is less and less on my mind. and it is only once your heart is shattered and then repaired can you actually say it's strong enough, it's tried and true, and you know you can handle truly losing yourself to love again.
Hey there...how are things going?
hey OTM. wow, i just realized it's been a week since i posted on here. i just don't need the forum like i used to, i guess.
nothing has changed between my H and i. absolutely no contact between us for over 2 weeks, with the exception of an email from him today asking me about the status of our separation agreement.
i've accepted that this is moving forward and that my H will be filing for D in august. i have detached and am working on moving forward. trying to get myself back out there and i feel i'm ready to begin dating again after 4 months of celibacy!
my H is a complete stranger to me. i know nothing about him anymore...where he is, what he does, who he does it with. i stopped caring because it hurt too much to care. so i don't. i am taking care of myself and doing the best i can on my own. i find i think of him less and less and rarely find myself missing him these days. my mind is on another man and though nothing's happened with him yet, my focus isn't on my H, which makes moving forward a lot easier.
i wish i had a success story to report, but i think that my H's idea of marriage and commitment is just very different from mine. he may never regret this, or he may end up crying on my doorstep a month from now. but i've come a long way in the last 4 months and i'm not going to sit around and wait for him to get his head out of his as$ anymore.
if anything, i guess i should be grateful that he walked away, because i never would have and i would have let this go on for years before ever admitting to myself that i was unhappy in my M and that i wanted my H to be a better partner. he's not a bad person, just troubled, and it's not my job to fix that anymore.
running my first 10k on sunday. hopeful to go on my first "date" in 5 years here soon. taking it one day at a time. loving every minute.
The great part of your efforts is that you'll always know you had been tried. What a great quality of a wife/partner in life!
We are running almost parallel lives tta.
Maybe we should hold a separation paper day BBQ to keep us entertained in August.
great idea, lees! i'm thinking about an "un-bachelorette" party!!
Excellent. I'll be out to buy the bunting and paper cups and plates in about July
How are you doing tta? Running? Date?
wow. it's been a long time since i've been here. plenty has happened, but nothing good between the H and i. i think i should probably start calling him the soon to be ex H.
i have gone out on 3 dates with the same man. we have a good time together and it's nice spending time with someone in a "dating" situation again, but i often find myself distracted that he's not my H sitting across the table from me. i do not think about him when he's not around and i could care less if he calls or not, but i do think it's a plus that i've put my toe back in the water in regards to dating.
i've been keeping up with my running and have probably lost about 10 pounds since my H moved out back in february. running gives me a chance to clear my head every day, and i never thought i'd say this, but i am at a point where i look forward to my runs now, especially my long ones that i do solo. 6.5 miles gives you a lot of time to think.
i do not speak to my STBX at all. the only contact we've had in the last 2 months is in regards to our separation agreement. we've had a few back and forth disagreements about the terms, but no nasty name calling, no dramatic fights, no trying to stick it to one another. just trying to act like an adult and move on with my life. i will send a (hopefully) finalized version of the agreement to him today and if he has no changes, i suppose we'll be signing it and filing it within the next few days/week. i have informed him that i plan to change back to my maiden name after everything is finalized, to which i got zero reaction. that seems to be the common theme with him these days, zero reaction. since we have no contact, i am as kind and pleasant as i can be when we do email one another, and i always tell him i'm thinking of him or something along those lines. he never acknowledges it, but i guess i should be used to that by now. i haven't heard him say he loves me since march 30. probably sad that i still know that date.
i'm still seeing my IC, once or twice a month. i don't want to walk away from all of this feeling bitter or jaded, so we are working on that, and i'm also struggling with not feeling like i'm leaving empty handed. i'm not exactly sure what i got out of the last 5 years of my life except a broken heart and a chance to start all over again. certainly i've learned a lot about myself and marriage, but it's a hell of a way to have to learn a lesson.
i'm still taking it one day at a time, working on becoming the person i want to be, picking myself up off the floor and getting back out there. it's not the choice i would have made for myself, but i'm doing the best i can with the hand i've been dealt. i miss my H every day...but i find that with each passing day it's less and less. he turned 30 last week, so i sent him a simple card and a text, to which i simply got a "thank you" reply. it's hard to miss a complete stranger and that's what he's become to me. i have no idea who this man is. my H is gone. long gone.
i don't know what is going on in his life or what he's doing. i have no ide if he's dating, or sleeping with other people, but i can't worry about that. i'm not trying to keep up with him by dating again...just hoping that moving on and getting out there again will help me stitch up the wound in my heart so i can be free of all of this and start the next chapter of my life, whatever it may bring.
thanks for all your words of support and encouragement. it's good to check in from time to time.
Sad for your sitch, TTA, but not sad for you!
You are moving forward, and becoming stronger. Keep that up~
just popping by, it's been a month since i've been on the boards here...
not much has changed except that i have a signed and filed separation agreement. as of august 1 i can file for divorce based on a 6 month separation and i plan to do that instead of waiting around on him. he is a ghost and a stranger and i know nothing about him anymore. we do not speak and his family has dropped me from their lives as well. i don't dwell on it, though, and it hasn't crushed me the way i thought it would.
what i'm broken up about now is the relationship i was hoping to start with a guy i'd dated about 4 years ago. we run into one another from time to time and have kept in contact and have sort of always had a thing for one another. he was in a relationship when i first got separated and recently ended that, and after meeting up with him once and getting myself good and googly eyed over him again, he let me know his ex reached out to him and wanted to talk and he figured he at least owed the relationship a discussion. seems i can't win for losing these days. i have learned a lot about attachment and want in the last 6 months, so my rational brain is fully aware of what i SHOULD be doing, but of course my heart is breaking over this guy all over again.
back to back heart breaks is not really what i had envisioned for myself on my road to recovery...but then again i guess i should know by now that life is just as much about loss as it is love. maybe one day this guy will find his way back around, i've been thinking about him for 4 years and i'm probably not going to stop now.
hope everyone is well and staying strong.
If you're still getting updates & such, I wanted to pop in and find out how your new life has been?