My new thread. The other one was getting a bit lenthy I guess.
Tonight I got a text from W asking if I was on my way to the karate thing. I replied yes. I got there and she texted me where she was. I did not ask. She just sent it to me. So I get inside and I see her and D7 sitting on the bleachers and them waiving to me to come over. So I did go sit by them. D7 sat between us again. From that point on W really didn't speak to me or look at me the rest of the evening.
D12 performed and got her gold belt. She did wonderful as did the rest of the kids in her class. I was very proud of her and told her.
We ended up leaving and going our separate ways. I hugged my girls good night and told them I love them and then told W to have a good evening as she was walking the other way. She said the same back and we parted ways. I am not sure why she wanted me to sit with them since she had nothing to say to me. But I played it cool. No biggie. It was D12's night and she did great.
SM,
D12 decided she wanted to do karate all on her own. It actually stunned me when she told me she signed up. I had no influence in that decision. She just likes it. And hey, it is a healthy thing anyways. They teach the kids discipline and self control. I think it is all good.
So tonight W calls me and needs to know what D7's homework is because apparently she left her homework sheet here. So I tell her what it is. Then W tells me that we need to work with D12 on communicating better to us about her homework because apparently she had a research paper she needed to do on the internet and didn't let either of us know. I agreed. Good enough. We both said good night.
I excercised tonight and I feel great. I have to start doing it again every day. It just really perks me up when I do.
ClingingToHope,
I don't actually see W that often. It has just been here lately with the birthday and holidays and kids events going on. Usually I don't see her except maybe 5 minutes a week when we exchange the kids.
KerryK, SG and everyone else, I am not going to go out and seek sex from someone. It would be what, an hour of fun and do nothing morally for me and my marriage.
Can't bring myself to do that one. Thanks for thinking of me though.
Kevin
The LORD is my light and my salvation—whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—of whom shall I be afraid? ~Psalm 27:1
K4D, as 25 has told you many times you cannot live in fear as it will paralyze you which you may have noticed today.
I think W is struggling, but coming around slowly. The thawing is happening. We will see what the rest of the holidays bring.
Kevin
The LORD is my light and my salvation—whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—of whom shall I be afraid? ~Psalm 27:1
K4D, as 25 has told you many times you cannot live in fear as it will paralyze you which you may have noticed today.
I did seem to get gripped into a bit to much fear today. I had to much time on my hands and my mind waundered to much. I prefer to be busy at work so that doesn't happen.
Kevin
So tonight W calls me and needs to know what D7's homework is because apparently she left her homework sheet here. So I tell her what it is. Then W tells me that we need to work with D12 on communicating better to us about her homework because apparently she had a research paper she needed to do on the internet and didn't let either of us know. I agreed. Good enough. We both said good night.
Kevin
K4D, you can contact your kids teachers to find out about homework assignments and let the teachers know to contact you with any issues which arise at school. Check to see if the school has a web site and see if the teachers post the homework assignments. And/or find out who your girls friends are and meet their parents, they can be a good resource for car pooling and finding about homework, etc…
I think W is struggling, but coming around slowly. The thawing is happening. We will see what the rest of the holidays bring.
Not to dampen your spirit, but you said W didn't have much to say to you tonight. What do you see that leads you to believe she is coming around slowly?
You are a little farther along than I am. I've been out seven months and I tend to convince myself it's a matter of time, it's a matter of time.
A friend of mine in Virginia, who got divorced a year ago, said even today when he sees his ex, he could pick out something if he really tried hard enough that would lead him to believe someday they'll reconcile.
He said it's a fool's game. Accept your life for what it is today and don't look so hard for clues. You'll most likely just hurt your own efforts at detaching.
I know the success stories on here give you, me, everyone hope. But there are thousands who disappear from the boards or move over to surviving the D.
The odds are against us.
K4D, you can contact your kids teachers to find out about homework assignments and let the teachers know to contact you with any issues which arise at school. Check to see if the school has a web site and see if the teachers post the homework assignments. And/or find out who your girls friends are and meet their parents, they can be a good resource for car pooling and finding about homework, etc
Thanks ppenton. Those are good ideas I had not thought of. I will do that.
Kevin
Not to dampen your spirit, but you said W didn't have much to say to you tonight. What do you see that leads you to believe she is coming around slowly?
You are a little farther along than I am. I've been out seven months and I tend to convince myself it's a matter of time, it's a matter of time.
A friend of mine in Virginia, who got divorced a year ago, said even today when he sees his ex, he could pick out something if he really tried hard enough that would lead him to believe someday they'll reconcile.
He said it's a fool's game. Accept your life for what it is today and don't look so hard for clues. You'll most likely just hurt your own efforts at detaching.
I know the success stories on here give you, me, everyone hope. But there are thousands who disappear from the boards or move over to surviving the D.
The odds are against us.
Just feeling good tonight ClingingToHope. True, nothing tonight led me to come to that conclusion. Just looking at how things have gone since the beginning of this month.
Yes, the odds are against us. But nothing is impossible.
Kevin
KerryK, SG and everyone else, I am not going to go out and seek sex from someone. It would be what, an hour of fun and do nothing morally for me and my marriage.
AMEN!
That kind of talk is nowhere in any of MWD's material, has no place in divorce-busting, and doesn't belong on this forum.
I'm proud of you Kevin, you've stayed faithful, things are thawing off, you're becoming stronger. This thread is exhausting even to read. I would recommend you stop listening to anyone here who gives you advice like that. It's cool to journal, but you don't have to respond to everyone. That would be a great 180
I'm e-mailing you right now, let's get together.
define sex.
nevermind, Jon2911, what do you know about the population dynamics of rabbits and foxes?
That kind of talk is nowhere in any of MWD's material, has no place in divorce-busting, and doesn't belong on this forum.
Sowwy Mommy, we promise to be better.
Ok, caught up in the new thread.
I think you are doing fine and the best YOU can. This is a tough situation and nobody knows your W better than you. For now, I would just focus on getting along with her for your kids sake and try and be happy in your own life. If she is going to come back, she will. I know its hard and you want to edge the situation along but there isn't much you can do at this point. She wants her freedom, but I also notice she wants to dabble in family life too. That may be just to ease her guilty conscience.
I don't recommend finding a booty call either. I tried to date when exh and I were separated the first time (pre baby) and it was so mind messing. I was using a very nice person as a crutch to get over my exh. Didn't help me. In fact it made my pain worse.
Kevin. Even if she did want to come back YOU are not even close to ready. You have only done about 10$ of the work needed.
No one can help you if you are not willing to help yourself by detaching. No one.
This living in denial is getting really old.
How's those AA meetings going?
Have you seen the movie Ground Hog Day? Well you are living it.
Thanks Jon 2911 and SO2. Good points taken.
PMA, granted I posted a lot the past 2 days and have my moments of not wanting to let W go. Geez, she is my W. I have kids with her. We have been married for 12 years. Kind of signed up for life, or at least that is what I think was said when we got married.
This has been a struggle. I have gone through lots of human emotions through this. I have done some things I shouldn't have and changed some things I should have.
Everyone's path is different. But ultimately everyone on here has basically the same goals. Save the M and improve their life by changing themselves to be a better all around person. There are a lot of things I do not do anymore that led me to be in a bad position. So maybe you don't see it all, but I am far better off than I used to be.
Letting go isn't easy. But it isn't stopping me from being involved with others and helping out people when I can. It isn't stopping me from doing what I need to for my girls. It is stopping me from moving on to find someone else. My goal isn't to move on and find someone else.
It has probably hindered to an extent forward progress with me and W. I can't deny that.
I am however looking to make a change in my career and get a certification to move that forward which would be great for me.
I won't dodge the AA issue. I assume the meetings are going well for those that are still attending and need them. I have a C I go to and I have my priest I go to and I have friends that support me as well that I spend time with which does not include drinking.
I am doing fine there.
I always appreciate the time taken to give me analysis and insight.
Thanks,
Kevin
How can you say you are doing fine when you are STILL exhibiting CLASSIC ADDICTIVE behaviors. You are ADDICTED to your W and your PREVIOUS MARRIAGE. You are CODEPENDENT and need to go to a CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS group for this.
Just because you have not been drinking alcohol does not mean you have stopped your ADDICTIVE behavior.
Until you see this connection you will be STUCK.
Do you want everyone to stop wanting to help because eventually that is what will happen if you keep on repeating this behavior.
I guess we need to accept where your at and stop trying to change it. Once again, YOU are the only one that can CHANGE.
PMA
I won't dodge the AA issue. I assume the meetings are going well for those that are still attending and need them. I have a C I go to and I have my priest I go to and I have friends that support me as well that I spend time with which does not include drinking.
Sounds like a dodge to me, why not just say I'm not going? Did you figure out why you drank too much? Just FYI not drinking (which you still do) is a small part of AA it's about finding out and FIXING what caused you to do it in the first place.
I am curious how many you went to since at one point you said you had two sponsors...You don't have to answer but I think it's an issue...AA is hard it takes work, once again we go back to instant gratification...We heard a year ago about you getting a mentor for advancing your BA career now your talking about getting your PM cert, you do know you can't get one without PM experience, right?
I'm not trying to jump all over you but I want you to move forward with something and stick to it, something out of your comfort zone.
Kevin,
I'm going to speak purely from my experiences, and therefore be rather blunt.
I get the whole "for life, til death do we part, better or worse", all of that. Been there.
But let me be clear: She's not your wife right now.
The sooner you REALLY get your head around that, the sooner you will move forward. And by moving forward, I do not in any way, shape, or form mean finding someone else. You need to let go of your old marriage before you have ANY chance of having a new one.
Let it go.
Let her go.
Do NOT do things that you hope will "win her back". As counter-intuitive as that seems, it's counter-productive. Pretty much everyone is telling you that.
Find yourself.
Be the greener grass.
For you.
Well said Drew. Doesn't get any clearer then that.
It is stopping me from moving on to find someone else. My goal isn't to move on and find someone else.
That should not be your goal.
You'll be stuck right where you are, unless you move on. You W also knows you are stuck here, by her actions and how she communicates with you. That much is apparent.
Your goal should be refined to be:
"My goal isn't to move on and find someone else, it is to
move on and find MYSELF."
I am trying to break some molds and move forward. I am not going back to AA. I have plenty of other things going on that don't require me to go to or need AA.
There is a difference between being codependent and knowing what is morally right to do which is to stand by the M even if it is down the toilet right now.
Yes, I know what caused me to drink. I wasn't willing to deal with the problems I had or believed I had in life and instead tried to wash them away with the bottle. I am taking those problems head on now and just dealing with them as they are. I am also trying to make forward progress in not being so stuck on myself and my situation that I can help others and do things for others.
VD, yes, I am aware of the fact that you can't get the actual certification until you have something to the affect of 5 years experience. And I also am thinking back and forth between BA and PMP. However, I can go through the certification courses and show the completed course work to help improve the current track that I am on. Not everyone that is a BA or project manager has the certification. A lot of them fell into it. I have some experience as a BA. The big one would have been had I taken the job I passed onto my W. Ok, huge mistake there on my part for not going after it and instead passing it along so I could be cozy with where things were. That won't ever happen again. I learned that lesson extremely well.
I know of plenty of cases where people are getting better jobs just for completing the course work and getting the certificate of completion. So unless I am wrong, it does still actually help to go through it and do it.
Is this what you see since you are a recruiter?
Kevin
Kevin..I really hope you continue to go to AA. If the drinking has been a real problem it will creep back again if you don't constantly stay on top of it.
I do agree with the others. Let her go. Get along with her and be civil. I need to do the same thing. Not jump at a crumb and think its some sort of sign.
"My goal isn't to move on and find someone else, it is to move on and find MYSELF."
I am trying to find myself. I am trying to think about how to put things into place for myself. I know it isn't quite as seen on here because I don't often talk about it so much as I do about the M. This site isn't really about what I am doing in my evenings with people or whom I may be with helping or what I am doing as far as where I may eat out or what time I excercised or how much painting I did at the church or what is the best road to get back into further education that I am looking at and when I may be able to start it once I have that info, etc.
This site is about M, so when I post here, it is more often about the M than anything else that I have going on.
Kevin
I have more than enough going on in my life when I am away from work that keeps me busy.
Kevin
I guess it seems like yall think I have nothing else going on in my life other than thinking about my W. That is so not the case.
Kevin
Let me try a different tack ....
You're right, this site is about your marriage. That's what you should be posting about. But what we read and hear is a lot of "if I do this, we'll inch closer to getting back together, but if I do that, we'll be closer to divorcing." It's your thought process and motivation we're trying to get you to recognize. Because unless you're different than 98% of the rest of the world, that's how you're going to talk and interact with her.
And she'll see right through it.
When you fly in a plane the safety instructions say to help yourself should the oxygen masks drop down THEN help the people around you.
Basic.
To me, busting a divorce requires you to "bust" yourself first. So far you haven't "busted" Kevin. You first, marriage second.
Is this what you see since you are a recruiter?
No...A company isn't going to pay me for someone with no PM experience and just a cert...That's not to say a company wouldn't take a chance on their own...I know you know this but there is a big difference between a BA and a PM, some will try and turn their BA experience into PM on their resume, this is very easy to spot...Not saying you would do this at all
No...A company isn't going to pay me for someone with no PM experience and just a cert...That's not to say a company wouldn't take a chance on their own...I know you know this but there is a big difference between a BA and a PM, some will try and turn their BA experience into PM on their resume, this is very easy to spot...Not saying you would do this at all
No, I wouldn't do that. I won't lie on my resume. I am just looking to see if proof of some actual completion of course work would help me out further than just saying I have some past experience and studied up on some books. I know with the BA this could help out further. But I wasn't totally sure on the PMP cert. You may have just helped me out there as far as direction goes.
I appreciate it.
Kevin
Ugg...
Here is the conversation my BIL had with me. He is pretty high up in his organization and has been both a BA and Project Manager. His responses are frusturating. I am not exactly loaded with contacts.
From me to BIL,
I have about 4k in a 401k plan. I am thinking about pulling it and
getting either a pmp certification or BA certification.
Wise move or not. And if wise, which would be better to get? I need to do something to improve my career.
************************************************************
From BIL to me,
Get a perm position and then get the company to pay for the
certification.
*************************************************************
From me to BIL,
No guarantees either of those will happen anytime soon. I don't see the benefit in continuing to put it off if I have a way to get it. My hope is that it will allow me to do just that in getting a permanent job and career that is better. It would have to help in my prospects. The question really is which one is better to pursue. I wonder if the project management cert would be better career wise.
**************************************************************
From BIL to me,
don't think I would pay for either.
***************************************************************
From me to BIL,
OK. Well thanks for the input. A recruiter that I talked to said a BA cert has a much better chance of being tried by a company than a pmp cert with not much background to go along with it.
***************************************************************
From BIL to me,
Tells me the PMP means nothing without the experience which in the end means the experience is what is important. I don't know to many people that look for a BA cert when hiring for that role, but it may be that certain industries or companies like the BA cert. Seems I recall that being something much newer than the PMP certification, but again people are going to look for experience. If you want to be a BA get a BA job that requires the level of experience you have and build on your experience. Along the way, if you can get the cert fine, but if you're good, the cert won't matter.
****************************************************************
From me to BIL,
That is the problem is getting one. I am trying to figure out how to improve those chances and doing nothing to add to those chances is not very helpful.
*****************************************************************
From BIL to me,
It comes down to first and for most, who you know, and second, how well you interview. That is 99% of landing the specific job.
Further exchange...
Me to my BIL,
Thanks for your advice. It isn't helpful that I am not loaded with contacts. This just continues to make me feel stuck.
**************************************************************
My BIL to me,
Building a network takes time. Do things that will help you build your network.
Of course the problem is where I work isn't loaded with much interaction with people to network with. We are pretty secluded to what we do.
Ok, so frusturation is getting to me a bit here. I am basically stuck unless I somehow luck out and make a contact with the right person. Nice. I guess I will buy a lotto ticket.
Kevin
Google. Keyword search: Dallas + IT Networking Events + 2010
DO NOT SAY YOU CAN'T FIND ANYTHING AS I JUST DID THIS SEARCH AND FOUND EVENTS SCHEDULED THROUGH SEPT. 2010.
I thought using resources to find solutions and opportunities was something you would strive to do?
It NEVER dawned on you to use the largest search engine in the world to possibly see what is out there in in the very large metro area you live in? Seriously?
And....
I like the answers your BIL is giving you. He is steering you in the right direction and forcing you to think on your own.
How can you be a project manager if you don't even know how to make a business contact?
It NEVER dawned on you to use the largest search engine in the world to possibly see what is out there in in the very large metro area you live in? Seriously?
Sorry to say that no, I didn't think about that.
Kevin
That was a good search CG,
I also added in "+ Business Analyst" with what you wrote and that is bringing up some pretty good stuff.
Thank you,
Kevin
Let me get this straight. You want to further your career in IT but it never dawned on you to search the INTERNET and use INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY to find out how to do that?
I think you need to find a C that can help you learn the foundation of basic problem solving and solution skills.
No,
It didn't dawn on me to use the internet to find networking events that could assist in this. The only thing I was thinking was talk to agencies and see if something can land. Sometimes I hit a wall when I get frusturated.
Kevin
I have to step back and take a bit of time and reanalyze the situation sometimes.
Kevin
You are welcome.
So while you were whining about being stuck and needed the luck of the lotto to make your career better since you have no network or business contacts *I* did a quick Google and found some potential ways to build a network in Dallas.
Note. I do not live in Dallas and have no desire to be in IT.
There is never any reason to be stuck or think you are stuck unless you choose to stay stuck. While you were complaining you were stuck I was finding SOLUTIONS. Ponder that.
Let me get this straight. You want to further your career in IT but it never dawned on you to search the INTERNET and use INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY to find out how to do that?
To quote Hank Hill, "Don't they have that internet on computers now?"
Glad you got a laugh out of it Coach.
CG,
You are right. I was just hitting a mental wall out of frusturation and not thinking it through the best I could.
Kevin
What it all boils down to is you to CHOOSE to let frustration take over instead of good sense.
Goal: When I feel frustration taking over I will stop and think of five potential solutions at once instead of whining and convincing myself I am stuck.
Yes kevin I agree 100% with BIL...LinkedIn is also a great place to make contacts...Find a senior level BA or PM and just call them, tell them what your looking for and I bet 9 times out of 10 they'll talk to you...That's how I learned about IT positions when I knew nothing, just called people to ask questions...Most people love to talk about what they do and how they became successful.
I have to step back and take a bit of time and reanalyze the situation sometimes.
Kevin
ah ha. foxes and rabbits.
we're getting closer.
VD just gave you the same advice many people gave you months ago. Find somebody in a postion you would like to one day obtain and talk to them about it.
For cripes sakes - listen to just one thing. ONE.
Anybody here remember darboyd/maya44?
Thanks CG and VD,
I know that is what I was told before. I guess I was just trying to find a way to incorporate something more on the resume to make it stand out more.
It seems like what you all have said really is the only road to go right now. I guess I better start learning how to network better. The google search is a great way to start.
SM,
foxes and rabbits? Seriously? Wasn't this analysis already answered by SG or did I miss something there?
Kevin
Anybody here remember darboyd/maya44?
I don't. Should I?
Kevin
You went right for the "something more" before you did anything to build a foundation. You asked for advice on this same topic some time ago and essentially got the same advice the second time around. Both times you went for the "something more" before you did the basic steps.
Do you think this is a healthy pattern?
Do you see how this pattern spills over in every aspect of your life?
Do you think this is a healthy pattern?
Obviously not.
Do you see how this pattern spills over in every aspect of your life?
Yes.
Kevin
If you have a sore leg and you go see a dr. and his first thought is to amputate your leg what would you think?
You would probably run like hell to get out of there. A good dr. would do a medical history, physical exam and perhaps order imaging tests. He would do the basics to obtain more information so he could reach a diagnosis and treatment plan.
Next time you want to jump over the "building a foundation part" and look for the quick fix think of amputating a sore leg.
If you have a sore leg and you go see a dr. and his first thought is to amputate your leg what would you think?
You would probably run like hell to get out of there. A good dr. would do a medical history, physical exam and perhaps order imaging tests. He would do the basics to obtain more information so he could reach a diagnosis and treatment plan.
Next time you want to jump over the "building a foundation part" and look for the quick fix think of amputating a sore leg.
Thanks CG,
I understand.
Kevin
Not even if he is visited by 3 ghosts.
Hence my reference to darboyd/maya44 .......
What walk am I not walking? The detachment road? Is that the one I am not walking? What else am I doing that is so wrong? Because I think about my W during the day, I am not walking? Walking where? Out of her life? I am not in her life except for when it involves the kids. I am walking forward in my own life. Maybe it isn't the same road that some of you take. But it is going forward.
This is flippin ridiculous.
Bottom line, I am not going to forget about my W. I am not going to just stop thinking about her like she doesn't exist. I am not just going to put all hope out of my mind for a future reconciliation. Yes, she is living her own life without me and without interference from me. What other road does it take 3 ghosts to walk that everyone is so consumed with me walking? I am living my life and doing what I need to trying to move forward in directions that need to happen. I want to move forward with my career. I raising my daughters part time and involved with them as much as possible. I helping out on my off time with people and things.
This is mind boggling. Because I refuse to treat my situation as forever hopeless and forget about it, I am not walking some golden road?
Some of you have chosen to take the road that works for you. I am taking the road that works for me.
I am not "stuck" in life. I may feel stuck in my career options sometimes because I haven't thought them through the best possible route. I may feel stuck in fidelity wise because I am married with kids. But I am definitely not stuck in life. Ok, so I don't always have the brightest outlook on life and my future. So it isn't so far turning out the way I had hoped. It doesn't mean that I am not trying to find ways to improve it without my W. So the greatest joy would be a reconciliation with my W and to have my family back together. Big deal. That is what would make me happy. But it isn't happening right now. So I am doing other things with my life because of it.
But "stuck" in life? Cmon.
Kevin
Hey,
It is a wonderful life no matter what the outcome. It simply has it's down moments at times and up moments at times. What life doesn't?
Kevin
I spend a decent amount of time helping other people not on these boards with situations or that need work done or some form of help. How is that a bad thing? I also get together with friends, go to mass, do what I need to as a responsible citizen, parent, etc.
I am just flabbergasted today.
Kevin
Jon is right. I have to quit posting so much on here. That would be a big 180.
Kevin
It is a wonderful life no matter what the outcome. It simply has it's down moments at times and up moments at times. What life doesn't?
Kevin
Elementary my dear Watson. Now get busy LIVING or get busy DYING.
Show your WAW that you trully believe you deserve better then the scraps she is throwing your way. Show her your new found confidence that she would be a FOOL to live with out.
Now keep on climbing that hill soldier!!! No more buts JUST DO IT!!!
Let your posts be about only POSITIVE ACTIONS MOVING FORWARD from now on. No more posts mentioning your WAW and what she is POSSIBLY DOING OR THINKING for at least a week.
Can you do it? Can you WALK THE WALK??? I challenge you. Do we need to start a betting pool as a motivator. I would easily put down 20$ that you can't. Prove me wrong.
Any one else want in on the action? Im guessing 25 and CG and many others will anti up.
PMA
SM,
foxes and rabbits? Seriously? Wasn't this analysis already answered by SG or did I miss something there?
Kevin
OK, I give. I quess my references are a bit obscure. They are from the begining chapters of divorce busting. To me, they stood out as examples of the point Michele was trying to get across at the time. African violets and old ladies, foxes and rabbits? an interesting choice of examples.
Why did I bother? Because rather than telling you to snub your wife, get another wife, detach, reattach, get a job, jump off a bridge, or buy a propeller hat spin it and yell woo hoo, I was hoping after a year you would go back to basics and review the text with what you know now. As they say, hindsight is 20/20.
I was hoping you or someone else was reading this now at a stressful time for everyone, even more stressful for people in a divorce situation and those examples, would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
I guess everyone interprets this text differently and resolves their marital problems by drawing their own conclusions(solutions).
catching up in this thread. Once again I leave for 3 hours and come back to 4 pages!
PMA,
I will do that. Feel free to place any anti's.
SM,
I see what you are talking about now. No it didn't register with me. It has been a while since I read the books DB and DR. I actually do need to read DR again. Maybe I will spend the next few weeks going through it again. It couldn't hurt. Your points are well made and on target along with your timing.
Kevin
We're not asking you to quit thinking about your wife.
We're suggesting that you stop overanalyzing every little interaction with her and basing your decisions and actions on whether or not you think it will move the needle more towards reconcilation or divorce. Subtle but vitally important.
Took me a long time to learn it ......
We're suggesting that you stop overanalyzing every little interaction with her and basing your decisions and actions on whether or not you think it will move the needle more towards reconcilation or divorce. Subtle but vitally important.
Drew, you are right. I 100% agree on this that I have to quit over analyzing things with her. I was doing better on that and then I have been recently helping a friend and he analizes things to death with his W and I guess I started doing it again with my own W. For some time I wasn't taking temperature checks anymore and he was and so I started to again especially with W and MIL becoming softer lately. I started getting away from the basics again and it has left me in a more frusturated mood. I will have to get back to the basics again. DR is a good thing to reread.
Kevin
Here's everything in a nutshell.
What you've been doing to move on is a good thing. The problem that you don't seem to be understanding is that your job, your R, etc. all follow the same pattern.
The rest of us can see that, but you can't. Don't know why, but that's the way it is. The indecision and codependence in your R, your previous drinking, etc. is the main problem. The issue with your W and your job, your kids, etc. are results of that basic problem. Simple as that.
When you deny, get flustered, get pissed at the venues to help you deal with that root problem of yours (either the boards, or AA) it's almost like you don't want to change that part of you. So you end up going in a circle. Repeating the same scenarios.
But like your W and her infidelity, you can't make her change until she sees that what she's doing is wrong. Same here. We can't MAKE you see what your root problem is. You have to read the posts, understand them and most importantly - believe that you have to make those changes.
You also have an issue with needing instant gratification. Case in point. You stated how you need to take out money from your 401K to take care of some basic expenses. Yet you go out and buy a Droid phone. I consider myself a techgeek, but I have a plain cellphone with no web capability because in the long run it saves me a few dollars.
I think it was CG who also gave you a whole list of ways to save money. How many of those have you tried? See it seems like you're looking to go the quick and easy route whether it's your career, R, or personal life.
Ok. I am purchasing cankevinwalkthewalk.com through godaddy and opening up a paypal account as soon as I write this post.
Then we can donate all the money to AA
PMA
Ok. I am purchasing cankevinwalkthewalk.com through godaddy and opening up a paypal account as soon as I write this post.
Then we can donate all the money to AA
I really hope you are joking about this.
Kevin
I'll take the under.
define sex.
nevermind, Jon2911, what do you know about the population dynamics of rabbits and foxes?
Yo Steve,
Thanks for keeping this thread on some kind of track. And I think what you're talking about completely applies to Kev:
http://divorcebusting.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/the-foxes-and-the-rabbits/
Finally! An explanation. Going to read it now.
OK, I give. I quess my references are a bit obscure. They are from the begining chapters of divorce busting. To me, they stood out as examples of the point Michele was trying to get across at the time. African violets and old ladies, foxes and rabbits? an interesting choice of examples.
Why did I bother? Because rather than telling you to snub your wife, get another wife, detach, reattach, get a job, jump off a bridge, or buy a propeller hat spin it and yell woo hoo, I was hoping after a year you would go back to basics and review the text with what you know now. As they say, hindsight is 20/20.
I was hoping you or someone else was reading this now at a stressful time for everyone, even more stressful for people in a divorce situation and those examples, would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
I guess everyone interprets this text differently and resolves their marital problems by drawing their own conclusions(solutions).
Steve,
It doesn't seem most of the people on this thread have ever read DR, or are interested in discussing DBing.
Kev,
Thanks for the e-mail, I'm busy tonight but will call you soon. I'd highly recommend re-reading the books and MWD's articles and blogs. The forum can also be very helpful, IF it's about that. Good luck on the 180 of not posting
Thanks Steve and Jon for clearing up the foxes and rabbits thing.
Ok Jon. Let me know when is good for you.
Kevin
Steve,
Thanks for trying to keep things on track. It doesn't seem most of the people on this thread have ever read DR, or are interested in discussing DBing.
I think part of that problem comes from the fact that it's possible to come to this forum without knowing who MWD is or having read her books.
There is the principle of divorce-busting, as presented in DB and DR, and there's the actual application. Most of us here try to help with the latter.
Here's everything in a nutshell.
Ok.
What you've been doing to move on is a good thing. The problem that you don't seem to be understanding is that your job, your R, etc. all follow the same pattern.
The rest of us can see that, but you can't. Don't know why, but that's the way it is. The indecision and codependence in your R, your previous drinking, etc. is the main problem. The issue with your W and your job, your kids, etc. are results of that basic problem. Simple as that.
When you deny, get flustered, get pissed at the venues to help you deal with that root problem of yours (either the boards, or AA) it's almost like you don't want to change that part of you. So you end up going in a circle. Repeating the same scenarios.
I get tired of being asked about AA and told to keep going there. It isn't in my plans right now.
But like your W and her infidelity, you can't make her change until she sees that what she's doing is wrong. Same here. We can't MAKE you see what your root problem is. You have to read the posts, understand them and most importantly - believe that you have to make those changes.
I get that.
You also have an issue with needing instant gratification. Case in point. You stated how you need to take out money from your 401K to take care of some basic expenses. Yet you go out and buy a Droid phone. I consider myself a techgeek, but I have a plain cellphone with no web capability because in the long run it saves me a few dollars.
Good point. I usually don't blow money like that, but I let my excitement get the best of me for the phone and haven't really regretted it. It has been nice to have and use. But your point is valid none the less.
I think it was CG who also gave you a whole list of ways to save money. How many of those have you tried?
Actually I do pretty well at saving. My grocery bill is near to nothing when it is just me. Occasionally I go out to dinner. I did blow some money earlier on trying to figure out my life and letting loose. But I am now rebuilding that and have gotten that out of my system.
See it seems like you're looking to go the quick and easy route whether it's your career, R, or personal life.
Always seems easier, but doesn't generate the results needed in the end. Everything is hard work that has to be stayed on top of and pursued for the ultimate rewards.
Kevin
I think part of that problem comes from the fact that it's possible to come to this forum without knowing who MWD is or having read her books.
There is the principle of divorce-busting, as presented in DB and DR, and there's the actual application. Most of us here try to help with the latter.
I have both books and have read them for the most part. Occasionally skipping parts of certain story lines to get to the root of what MWD was saying.
But it has been a while since I have picked them back up and I am due a refresher course.
Kevin
Ya,
Time to just focus on DBing. Lets see, tonight I will go to mass, come back and excercise to improve my ownself, eat low fat and healthy for myself and tweak and put my resume out there again.
All positives.
Kevin
DR is definitely the better of the 2 books. I thougth that the theory talk in DB about SBT was maybe best left for more advanced psychology books.
Kevin, one thing I think is important is to set a timeline on how long your are willing to wait for your marriage to reconcile.
In the meantime, if you want to improve and understand your interactions with the opposite sex better...
Hold on to your NUTs: The relationship manual for menFor Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women
Great titles!
DR was better in the sense that it assumes you don't want a divorce whereas the first DB book explains why divorce sucks, which we pretty much know or we would not be here on this site.
K4, the 401k issue I posted on your other thread. In short, you'll pay the tax on it at your highest rate, so I'm guessing for you that's between 15-25%, plus the penalty, and you'll have no savings left. Are your credit cards really charging you rates higher than those? Although I give financial seminars in RL, I am leery of doing that here obviously. But check into a ROTH IRA b/c I think for you, that'd be better and I'm pretty sure you qualify.
You are "frustrated" tonight, again. I almost thought you were stomping your feet b/c you simply want to be the way you are AND get your family back AND get a better job AND not have to do a whole lot of work b/c work is...just so....hard.....and you are "GAL" you say, b/c you are busy...
Your activities are not GAL the way we mean. Read the posts and actually think about them without reacting and maybe maybe maybe you'll figure it out. It'll take more than a day. Read what I did in the tundra to GAL if you have to. But your idea of GAL is my idea of being stuck. For the 123rd time, GAL does not mean giving up. It means stop revolving your life around your w, which you do almost non-stop, at least internally and my GOD it shows...and it is needy and it is unhealthy.
Here's the real problem as I see it. Your choices and the things CG has had to explain to you, and the decisions you still rely on your wife to handle, including a book purchase for your d, or how to pay your bills after a year of doing so, are actually tiny decisions a man your age ought to be able to make without step by step directions and suggestions. That lack of foundational skills, coupled with the adolescent thrill you got by purchasing a "Droid" and the "awesomeness" of it which you shared with your wife, were huge turns offs for me as a woman. Yeah, I know that hurts. I'm sorry for that, I really am.
But better to hear it here from me (and CG and other women here) than see it in your wife's eyes, and her family's. You don't realize it, I know. But my friend, you are simply behind where you should be in terms of basic life skills. You never ever discuss your underlying depression that preceeded the drinking (self medication?) so while you still blow off AA (which is SO NOT just about drinking! How many times do we have to tell you that it's a healthy way of life b/c it teaches you how to stand on your own, whether it's booze or a wife or a div busting site that you rely on -- instead of yourself and your faith to LIVE YOUR LIFE....) I give up on that though. You just can't handle it. It is literally too grown up for you. Bet you never read the big book, did you? Wow...so many missed chances in one life...
Part of why I say "you are so stuck" is b/c you don't seem to be growing much. Sorry, but you say you get frustrated as if that's unique to you and your life, and therefore you lose your head and make a poor decision. That's when bad choices are usually made k4, not when all is smooth and well in our lives. So often you say you are "overwhelmed" and it's by normal life stuff, cars, bills, job hunting, to which I must say, big deal! Get a grip. Even the little stuff throws you off and makes you go to others FIRST for help, and thereby learn nothing on your own--so you keep repeating the mistakes just as the job search discussion is a repeat of a past one in which you went to others, took NONE of their advice but seemed to hope for a better job by...what? Calling some folks up about what YOU NEED? The idea is that you'd bring something to the table to fill THEIR needs...kinda like a marriage... (Don't argue this point by point, just think about it, okay...these are just my impressions, and we're not in court "proving" anything...)
But so many people today have NO jobs at all, and you do, and you have insurance and your health...enough already about how hard your life is b/c your wife left you a year ago. HERE, WE ALL GOT LEFT at some point! And in the grand scheme of things....so what?
You know, my mil is still terminally ill & rapidly declining, it's so hard to handle and be there for my h and God only knows how he'll take her actual passing and btw, when we care for her, we are NOT GETTING PAID b/c both of us get paid by production/cases...so her living longer than expected is a wonderful blessing but also a huge financial burden that we cannot plan around since we have no true timeline so that's ALL SUPER EASY... and my own mother now has big bad health issues and lives in a house we own but lose money on every month...and my bil is still dead at 42 and a military brother died in Afghanistan by a stranger who never knew him but hates Americans, and a grandparent died suddenly-- as did my neighbor a beautiful mom with 4 small children and I was there when her h came in to tell the children (a vessel burst in her head) that their mother loved them so much but was gone...forever... all in the past 20 months so you know, sometimes I say "big deal about your wife" leaving you. We've ALL BEEN LEFT SOMETIME IN THE PAST OR WE WOULD NOT BE HERE..... I"M SORRY BUT FOR ME, WHAT'S REALLY "FRUSTRATING" IS READING THE "DIARY" OF A TEENAGE BOY IN A MAN'S BODY...
There, I said it. You mainly just need to grow up. Since you haven't by now, you must need help. So get it. Become attractive and strong as a man and maybe your wife will be more comfortable around you b/c she doesn't fear you'll read into everything she does or says (saves you a seat but then didn't talk? OMG who cares??) Let her RELAX and laugh or joke or hug the kids in front of you without thinking "OMG there goes K4 staring at me thinking I must want to be m again"...go read FIB's thread for some insight there. But back sooo off and stay that way.
YES of course we mean to DETACH and YES somehow you still think it means something it does not mean. If you had read up on it, as at least 45 posts suggested, you'd see that detachment is NOT giving up... you're right k4, you need a DB/DR "refresher course." So go read that book and the books Kerry and other men suggest to you. Seriously. What are you waiting for? WE DON'T have answers you seem to use...so get them somewhere.
Also when the time comes for a real change of heart from a WAS, we usually know it. We don't have to guess. At least for me and BND and several others who did reconcile, the WAS turned around & came to us, and they were very clear about what they wanted, at least verbally. Follow up- can be rocky but none of us had to guess or read into all these things when the WAS came back...
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single reconciled couple that didn't involve an outright statement from the WAS that they wanted to try again. Until that time comes, why wonder and ponder? It's a waste of time and energy. I submit the failure to detach, delays or destroys the possibility of a reconciliation b/c the WAS feels too smothered to have room to even think about it b/c of their fears that the LBSer is so hungry and needy that the WAS isn't ever comfortable enough to get to know the "NEW" LBSer...but then, k4, how "new" are you anyhow?
One thing MWD does say is that you the LBSer have to somehow show that a m to you today would NOT be a repeat of the M you had before... That's the only way you can have a "new, better" m. You both have to change BEFORE you can reconcile, not after!
I remember the times you said you had never known how to be happy on your own. K4, that's not a small comment. That was the first time I said, "go talk to a c about that, b/c it sounds physiological and or deeply psychological and maybe related to the drinking, etc...." and as far as I know, you can count on one hand (maybe 2?) how many hours you've spent on that underlying foundational deficit in the past year.
How do you feel about that statement now? Do you see how it might be related to your feeling overwhelmed by normal life stuff, and not being able to see fairly ordinary but mildly stressful situations as more than they are, and how the slight/moderate stress, for you turns into unmanageable frustration, leading to repeated poor choices? God forbid you have a horrible thing happen too. How'd you handle your mom's death? Wasn't that a factor in your drinking? If so, wouldn't now be a good time to learn new ways of coping with the likely coming stresses that we all have coming?
We really don't want to see you fail. But speaking for myself, that's what I see happening a lot. And with all these posts, it's pretty hard to believe it isn't on your end...I mean you really don't have bad luck in the grand scheme of things. You're in the pretty darn lucky pile but you whine and spin and stay here and get 223 posts and others with greater needs and worst cases who want to move forward with just some guidance, get little or nothing...I can only hope someone else benefits by reading your thread. And yes, I pray that you do too.
j-
Kev..I think we both need to 'man up' (tee hee)and see what happens. What do we have to lose at this point? If nothing else WE will be so much farther ahead. Go check out my thread from yesterday/last night. My exh is pushing with things and I have to set some boundaries with it. Not looking forward to it as you can see he gets nasty. Your W will at least stay calm.
25yearsmlc has hit it dead on again Kev.
Bravo 25yearsmlc!
I know you think we are all beating you over the head over and over again, and that in itself is one of the issues.
So many people here care about you, and want you to succeed, including myself, that they are posting to you exactly what you need to move forward from a place of caring in compassion! They are not putting you down, or calling you out!
You need to understand where you are developmentally and accept it. That is a hard thing to realize and accept but it is a must.
I know, I see now where I was, at almost 40 years old, I had not 'grown up' yet. Ugh, how the heck can that be? It just is, so accept it yourself. Making that determination and then accepting it, is key to helping you then move on.
There is a difference between age and maturity. Read those books suggestions, and you will see where it applies to you as well if you are open to it, and reflecting on your life and what has brought you to this point, as it is evident in your posts and as 25yearsmlc described above so eloquently.
25 wrapped things up in a very clear fashion for you.
Everybody feels overwhelmed from time to time. What we all must learn is how to deal with feeling overwhelmed in a positive way.
Basic life skills such as problems solving and managing daily things seems to be an area where you could use assistance. Learning that instant gratification is usually not permanent gratification is important. Not letting excitement or frustration lead you when making decisions would add an element of calm to your life that seems to be lacking.
You want to know what will attract your W back to you and here you have many women telling you what is NOT attractive. As a 34 year old woman, if I was involved with a man that said he bought a Droid phone because his excitement got the better of him and he kept rambling on about it like a kid with a new toy I would be turned off.
I am attracted to men that are on top of things, confident, able to find solutions and use resources and don't see everything in such a black and white fashion. I don't care if they are a garbage man or the CEO of a company.
Each month I type out a goal sheet but I break the goals down this way:
Business Goals
Financial Goals
Personal Goals
Then, for each category I add sub categories. That way I don't have an overwhelming list of "to do's" and things are far more manageable.
I only recently started doing this (as in the last year) and it has made a HUGE difference in my life.
A few months ago you were so worried about retirement and buying a house and car. Yet you just emptied a retirement account to pay off debt and fund a holiday for your children. The day it came out you purchased an expensive phone yet you worry that your W will never see you as a solid provider.
Start from scratch. That is what I had to do.
25,
I don't see anything on your financial seminar out there online. I decided to do a quick google search. However, wow, I am utterly amazed and wonder if there isn't anything you don't do or haven't done. Your accomplishments are amazing.
I don't know whether to feel privelaged that you have spent time posting to me or feel stupid for being in your presence and being discovered by you as a case that truly needs fixing.
I appreciate your postings and insight.
Kevin
Each month I type out a goal sheet but I break the goals down this way:
Business Goals
Financial Goals
Personal Goals
Then, for each category I add sub categories. That way I don't have an overwhelming list of "to do's" and things are far more manageable.
I only recently started doing this (as in the last year) and it has made a HUGE difference in my life.
This is very smart. I am going to start doing this myself. Maybe it will help keep me focused on where I am and where I am need to be and help me get there by taking it a monthly step at a time and breaking it down like this.
Kevin
There is a difference between age and maturity. Read those books suggestions, and you will see where it applies to you as well if you are open to it, and reflecting on your life and what has brought you to this point, as it is evident in your posts and as 25yearsmlc described above so eloquently.
iwantittowork,
This is good. Thanks. I have been suggested those 2 books before. I am aware of them, I just need to pick them up and add them to the list of the many books I have and have only gotten through part of. I think I need to start back with DR again first.
Currently I am in the middle of "The Power Of Prayer To Change Your Marriage" which also gives a lot of insight to how relationships work and should work between married couples.
Kevin
Kev..I think we both need to 'man up' (tee hee)and see what happens. What do we have to lose at this point?
Not much to lose at this point.
Kevin
Kevin, one thing I think is important is to set a timeline on how long your are willing to wait for your marriage to reconcile.
In the meantime, if you want to improve and understand your interactions with the opposite sex better...
KerryK,
I understand what you are saying, however, I don't have a timeline at this point. I did at one point, but I threw it out.
Kevin
I think time-lines and goals go hand in hand.
It would be silly for me to say that my goal is to have 1 million dollars in the bank by next Sunday. That won't happen. But, it would not be unreasonable to say I would like to have 1 million dollars in the bank by age 55. That is a timeline and the only thing left to do is make goals for the timeline.
Sure, things come up and sometimes goals/time-lines have to be adjusted but time-lines and goals keep you on some sort of track in all areas of life. It helped me as I was always one to react on emotion but having a plan really helped me with that and kept me on track. It still does actually.
Kev
If you are serious about finances, check out Dave Ramsey. Love his book "Total Money Makeover". He does a daily radio show, and a show on Fox Business channel. Has a program called Financial Peace University that also helps teach you how to get out (and STAY out) of debt, for real. If you can find his show on in your area, listen to it sometime. Very encouraging to hear stories of those who have done it and made it....oh, and he is also Christian and proud of it, which is nice!
I am attracted to men that are on top of things, confident, able to find solutions and use resources and don't see everything in such a black and white fashion. I don't care if they are a garbage man or the CEO of a company.
Each month I type out a goal sheet but I break the goals down this way:
Business Goals
Financial Goals
Personal Goals
Then, for each category I add sub categories. That way I don't have an overwhelming list of "to do's" and things are far more manageable.
I only recently started doing this (as in the last year) and it has made a HUGE difference in my life.
I have to put a plug in for David Allen's
Getting Things Done. It's a very good system for staying organized.
My system has taken a beating the past few weeks, between work and my private life, but I plan to sit down and get all of my lists and to-dos caught up before the end of the year.
Thanks for the additional financial resources. I will take a look at these.
Kevin
The best thing I can do is learn growth the best I can from all of this. I won't mention the droid again. Got that one loud and clear.
Kevin
granted I posted a lot the past 2 days and have my moments of not wanting to let W go. Geez, she is my W. I have kids with her. We have been married for 12 years. Kind of signed up for life, or at least that is what I think was said when we got married.
This has been a struggle. I have gone through lots of human emotions through this. I have done some things I shouldn't have and changed some things I should have.
Kev, I got this. Really. But you need not go back to the beginning whenever you are down. Just saying I'm a little down, having a rough patch - we can all identify with.
Answering every single post, musing every passing thought, agonizing over interaction with your wife will kill your progress.
Yes, there has been a thaw of sorts with your wife. That is only step 1 on a long road. You can be decent and not push her. Step 1.
Everyone's path is different. But ultimately everyone on here has basically the same goals. Save the M and improve their life by changing themselves to be a better all around person. There are a lot of things I do not do anymore that led me to be in a bad position. So maybe you don't see it all, but I am far better off than I used to be.
Yes! And we all move at different speeds. However, that doesn't mean you get to duck responsibility for your own progress. You've made some progress. Its up to you to make more, with no excuses. No reasons why it was too hard.
Letting go isn't easy. But it isn't stopping me from being involved with others and helping out people when I can. It isn't stopping me from doing what I need to for my girls. It is stopping me from moving on to find someone else. My goal isn't to move on and find someone else.
It has probably hindered to an extent forward progress with me and W. I can't deny that.
So what is the goal? To keep hindering any progress or to grow? You don't have to find someone else to grow. Life is busy, complicated, days pass into each other so quickly. It is you that you have to grow.
I am however looking to make a change in my career and get a certification to move that forward which would be great for me.
The most important reason to do this is to have a goal and reach it. Do it for you, Kev.
I won't dodge the AA issue. I assume the meetings are going well for those that are still attending and need them. I have a C I go to and I have my priest I go to and I have friends that support me as well that I spend time with which does not include drinking.
I am doing fine there.
Bull Sh&t meter pegged to the max. Sorry, my friend. Addictive behaviors are more than putting a bottle to your mouth or not. It has everything to do with your lack of control on your emotions, acting out or saying things you know you shouldn't say or do because you can't stand it any more, because you got frustrated, etc. It has a lot to do with realizing after the fact and shuddering in horror and regret for those things after the fact and having to start over repeatedly.
Kev, it pains me to come on here and see you spinning like a top depending on who is blasting you at any particular moment. Slow down, breath, and feel. There is nothing you have to do right now in the next five minutes.
Stop yourself from agonizing over everything. Sometimes it just is what it is, and that's all that there is. Stop and feel, even if you need to go have a good cry, which I suspect we all need to do occasionally.
Trust in God. I know you have faith. Give those things you want to agonize over to him. Why did my W say that? I don't know - only God does. Why did she ask me to sit with her? I don't know - only God does.
As a favor to me, please, go to more AA meetings. My uncle is sitting in Hudson Valley Correctional Facility for a 16-to life sentence for DWI. He has every reason in the world why. It is all going to be different when he gets out. I can't tell you how many times I've heard it.
And just because you don't have a DWI, does not mean the meetings are useless. It is the reasons behind why someone drinks that they work on. Those are the very things you need to work on. And if you really are all good there, then sponsoring someone else will help someone else.
Alcoholism is not something you just decide not to do any more. I want to see you strong. Please say you will go.
The best thing I can do is learn growth the best I can from all of this. I won't mention the droid again. Got that one loud and clear.
Kevin
Kevin, I just ordered a droid. I am giddy with excitement. I agree with all the rest of what 25 said, but for tech lovers, being excited about a new phone is cool. Feel free to share your excitement.
Very nice Wifey. Some great points.
Merry DBing Christmas everybody!
SG,
My W is a tech lover also and gets excited about new technology. So I guess it never dawned on me how it could be looked at by others. I think you will love your droid. I know I have spent a good amount of time on mine.
KJ,
I am thinking it over. This would be a favor for you if I go back. I know it should be for myself. But I honestly don't want to go back. But I will consider it for you.
Merry Christmas PMA,
Kevin
KJ,
I am thinking it over. This would be a favor for you if I go back. I know it should be for myself. But I honestly don't want to go back. But I will consider it for you.
Kevin
I haven't posted to you before, but I've read off and on. I really mean no disrespect by the question I'm about to ask you. I just have learned to trust my intuition and to pass on things to people when it comes to me. You are free to do with it what you will.
What are you afraid of? There's so much resistance to this...and all the excuses and comments seem to be tinged with fear and avoidance.
Normal feelings I think...I used to journal until I found out I could play the writing game too well and avoid dealing with things I really didn't want to deal with. I switched to art where I didn't have as much expertise so I had to get past the blocks I could put up for myself. It's been invaluable, though I've had to face really ugly things via the process.
What are you afraid of?
SD
I am not afraid of it so much as I don't want to keep spending my time in there night in and night out. It pretty much kills the rest of the evening of things I also am trying to do. It just basically eats up time that I can be applying to other things I also need to get done or sometimes just want to do.
I understand it teaches you life skills beyond drinking. I won't disagree with that.
I am thinking it over for KJ. I hate to tell her no on anything. And I know the reason she is asking me to for her is to help me continue and stay on the right track for my own life.
Kevin
Kevin,
I on and off have been reading your thread for months. Too much for me to keep up on
Anyhow, I want to take a step back and state from where you were so many months ago- jobless, homeless, super depressed and anxious- things are so much better for you.
You've definitely taken a bashing at times, many 2x4's (ok, many, many 2x4's) but you have been keeping at it. Persistent and still trying. I may not agree with some of your views on reconciling with your wife. But I have to admit- you still come here, you still post. Perhaps your journey to a better you is a slow one, maybe slower than others but I think you are still trying. Am proud of you for that.
Good for you!
The best thing I can do is learn growth the best I can from all of this. I won't mention the droid again. Got that one loud and clear.
Kevin
Kevin, I just ordered a droid. I am giddy with excitement. I agree with all the rest of what 25 said, but for tech lovers, being excited about a new phone is cool. Feel free to share your excitement.
I too am a techno geek. That is actually something my H and I have in common. I am holding off on getting a new phone until I find gainful employment, but the droid is VERY tempting.
If your W looks down your nose for being excited, its her problem. I highly doubt that would rate that low on her scale.
[quote]
I am thinking it over for KJ. I hate to tell her no on anything. And I know the reason she is asking me to for her is to help me continue and stay on the right track for my own life.
Kevin
I understand the time it takes Kevin and I am thrilled that you are considering it. Sure there are lots of things you could do with that time, but then growing is the most important thing you are working on right now. Staying on track for your own life, it sure sounds like a worthy investment of your time.
Just a dumb question, how would your W view you not going to AA? I know you should go just for you, but don't you also think she would think that you couldn't stick with it? It isn't a weakness to have a problem. It is to have a problem and not face it. Even though you are addressing it in other ways, don't you think she would respect you more if she knows you stuck it out?
Whatever you decide, I'm going to support you.
I have never been to AA. I am aware of the 12 step program though and to me, that is really just another aspect of making goals and completing them.
So some form of *that* might be helpful, no? If AA is not your choice then how about some other form of that?
My C is tough. He does not fool around and requires total dedication. I guess the concept he follows is like AA. Mapping out steps then helping you create your own. That doesn't sound so bad, right?
I actually LOVE C'ing now as it really challenges me.
I often wondered what your W would say about not going to AA too. As the exw of an alcoholic, I would be very leery unless he was in a working program that provides accountability...otherwise they call it a 'dry drunk' which is someone sort of white knuckling it. No offense Kev, but the whole alcoholism thing is very tender to me.
As a favor to me, please, go to more AA meetings.
I feel like StartingOver, go to lunch come back and Kevin is boozing it up again. LOL.
Time to Bombard Kevin with more information....
Maybe you should read Joseph Conrad's Secret Agent. Pay special attention to Winnie.
Just an fyi I texted my husband to see when they are coming in for christmas, since I have plans, I wanted to make sure we could agree on a day for him to come see our daughter and grand children. Funny just last year everything was WE THIS AND WE THAT....his text said "I'm ready to see everyone" not reading much into this just wanted to let you know.....he sounds not as infatuated as he was before maybe me just wanting to think this way......he doesnt have a job so she supports the both of them.....so she has him right under her control now....he plays games all day long on F/B....any thoughts?????
Kevin,
I on and off have been reading your thread for months. Too much for me to keep up on
Anyhow, I want to take a step back and state from where you were so many months ago- jobless, homeless, super depressed and anxious- things are so much better for you.
You've definitely taken a bashing at times, many 2x4's (ok, many, many 2x4's) but you have been keeping at it. Persistent and still trying. I may not agree with some of your views on reconciling with your wife. But I have to admit- you still come here, you still post. Perhaps your journey to a better you is a slow one, maybe slower than others but I think you are still trying. Am proud of you for that.
Good for you!
Thank you June72. Looking at what you just said does take me back to how bad off I was at one point. It is encouraging to see it laid before me again.
I too am a techno geek. That is actually something my H and I have in common. I am holding off on getting a new phone until I find gainful employment, but the droid is VERY tempting.
If your W looks down your nose for being excited, its her problem. I highly doubt that would rate that low on her scale.
I understand the time it takes Kevin and I am thrilled that you are considering it. Sure there are lots of things you could do with that time, but then growing is the most important thing you are working on right now. Staying on track for your own life, it sure sounds like a worthy investment of your time.
Just a dumb question, how would your W view you not going to AA? I know you should go just for you, but don't you also think she would think that you couldn't stick with it? It isn't a weakness to have a problem. It is to have a problem and not face it. Even though you are addressing it in other ways, don't you think she would respect you more if she knows you stuck it out?
Whatever you decide, I'm going to support you.
My W views people that have to get help with issues pretty much as troubled and good for them that they are getting C for it. But it doesn’t really change her overall opinion of them. I think in my W’s eyes it just proves that I am/was a problem and it doesn’t really matter to her if I am seeking treatment other than for the kids sake. It almost like justifies her decisions in her mind by me going to AA instead of looking at it as maybe a turning point.
I have never been to AA. I am aware of the 12 step program though and to me, that is really just another aspect of making goals and completing them.
So some form of *that* might be helpful, no? If AA is not your choice then how about some other form of that?
My C is tough. He does not fool around and requires total dedication. I guess the concept he follows is like AA. Mapping out steps then helping you create your own. That doesn't sound so bad, right?
I actually LOVE C'ing now as it really challenges me.
No, It doesn’t sound so bad. I guess I had thought I had been doing enough with my C and priest. But like I said, I am thinking it over again. It doesn’t mean I like it. But I am thinking on it.
I often wondered what your W would say about not going to AA too. As the exw of an alcoholic, I would be very leery unless he was in a working program that provides accountability...otherwise they call it a 'dry drunk' which is someone sort of white knuckling it. No offense Kev, but the whole alcoholism thing is very tender to me.
My W doesn’t show any care about whether I go or not or complete it. She just wants to know that I am trustworthy for the kids sake. She wants nothing to do with me whether I have improved or not or my life has gotten better or not.
I feel like StartingOver, go to lunch come back and Kevin is boozing it up again. LOL.
Time to Bombard Kevin with more information....
Maybe you should read Joseph Conrad's Secret Agent. Pay special attention to Winnie.
Another book. Great. Thanks Steve.
Kevin
So quit worrying about what she thinks.
Just an fyi I texted my husband to see when they are coming in for christmas, since I have plans, I wanted to make sure we could agree on a day for him to come see our daughter and grand children.
Very Good.
Funny just last year everything was WE THIS AND WE THAT....his text said "I'm ready to see everyone" not reading much into this just wanted to let you know.....
Might not be much to read into with that.
he sounds not as infatuated as he was before maybe me just wanting to think this way......
Maybe he feels like his life is in a bit of limbo lately with the circumstances.
he doesnt have a job so she supports the both of them.....so she has him right under her control now....he plays games all day long on F/B....any thoughts?????
Sounds like a pretty empty life. He can’t possibly be happy living like that.
Don’t get your hopes up for anything.
It kind of sounds like he is pretty much just looking forward to saying hi and seeing how yall are doing.
Don’t set expectations and you won’t be disappointed. Hopefully for you and your daughter we are reading this wrong. But I agree, try not to read to much into it. Things may be vastly different when he arrives. Maybe he is just feeling sluggish today.
Kevin
So quit worrying about what she thinks.
Ya.
Kevin
Not reading nothing into it......just wanted to see what you thought...God is still in control.......MERRY CHRISTMAS.
Not reading nothing into it......just wanted to see what you thought...God is still in control.......MERRY CHRISTMAS.
Indeed He is. Merry Christmas to you as well.
Just a side note, I have been told to quit wearing white socks with black shoes even if I am wearing jeans. Good fashion tip to know.
Kevin
Kevin,
95% of the time, your socks should match your pants; your shoes should match your belt, should match your watchband.
My W doesn’t show any care about whether I go or not or complete it.
Just fyi there is no completing, it's an ongoing process. Once an addict always an addict, speaking from experience.
95% of the time, your socks should match your pants; your shoes should match your belt, should match your watchband.
Glad to know. I will make sure I am putting it into practice each day.
I have a friend that wants to take me shopping to redo my wardrobe again. I am all for it. It will probably happen after the new year.
Kevin
Just fyi there is no completing, it's an ongoing process. Once an addict always an addict, speaking from experience.
An additional reason for her to think no reason to look back.
Kevin
Just fyi there is no completing, it's an ongoing process. Once an addict always an addict, speaking from experience.
An additional reason for her to think no reason to look back.
Kevin
WOW...you don't get it and I'm thinking you never will.
Good Luck
WOW...you don't get it and I'm thinking you never will.
I get it. It is for me.
I made that comment because I was twice asked earlier what my W might think.
Kevin
So much for caring what she thinks .....
Kevin, I hate to say it but you remind me of someone else who used to be on this board. Says all the right DB things to everyone else but can't embrace the concepts themselves. Until you can walk the talk, you're going to be hopelessly stuck.
I wish you well. I really do.
I'm outta here.
So much for caring what she thinks .....
Kevin, I hate to say it but you remind me of someone else who used to be on this board. Says all the right DB things to everyone else but can't embrace the concepts themselves. Until you can walk the talk, you're going to be hopelessly stuck.
I wish you well. I really do.
I'm outta here.
I am embracing it my friend. My life is improving. It will be going places. The ball is rolling.
I get my kids tonight and for the rest of next week except Tuesday night when W will have them. I am looking forward to it. We are making tonight a scrabble night with crackers, cheese and sodas and a bit of ice cream. It should be fun.
The tree is up. I just need to tweak it a bit. I think Tuesday night I will wrap presents and put them under the tree. I have a bit of shopping left to do this weekend. I think we will go see some lights and go to some festive things. I am going to make a fun weekend out of it with my girls.
Kevin
25,
I don't see anything on your financial seminar out there online. I decided to do a quick google search. However, wow, I am utterly amazed and wonder if there isn't anything you don't do or haven't done. Your accomplishments are amazing.
I don't know whether to feel privelaged that you have spent time posting to me or feel stupid for being in your presence and being discovered by you as a case that truly needs fixing.
I appreciate your postings and insight.
Kevin
I don't give them online and don't want you looking me up. Thanks.
This is an anonymous site for a reason.
J-
I don't give them online and don't want you looking me up. Thanks.
This is an anonymous site for a reason.
J-
Sorry 25. Not a problem. I should have used better judgement. Just wasn't thinking. I was just interested in seeing what your financial seminar covered.
Kevin
I did have to call W today to discuss child care for the next 2 weeks since the girls are out of school. That went fine. I think we have that set up now.
So begins the final week heading into Christmas.
Kevin
Kev,
All right, I'm sticking with your thread. It's a beating but there are a lot of great suggestions here.
I second the Dave Ramsey for financial, and Allen's GTD for organizing. For Men Only was great for me, need to check out the Nuts book.
I'm a huge fan of the 12 steps. Writing out a personal inventory and making things right with those people is the heart of it. Your coping mechanism really doesn't matter. Mine was porn and Internet. (BTW, just from how much you post here, you might want to research Internet addiction
). I go to Celebrate Recovery which is a Christian version and meets in churches. Can't recommend it enough.
Hang in there man, Merry Christmas!
I think part of that problem comes from the fact that it's possible to come to this forum without knowing who MWD is or having read her books.
True, but she also has:
http://www.divorcebusting.wordpress.comhttp://www.twitter.com/divorcebustingand the articles on here, which everyone can get for free. I don't see much excuse for not at least knowing the principles and letting them guide the discussion somewhat.
Not dogging on you though man, your advice is very good and I'd appreciate it on my thread.
and the articles on here, which everyone can get for free. I don't see much excuse for not at least knowing the principles and letting them guide the discussion somewhat.
Yeah, but those are just generally excerpts from the books: reading the book as a whole can provide more context.
And most people don't necessarily know about the articles, they hit the forum and ask the same questions that are answered in the books.
I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to not read the books first, only that it would help a great deal.
I think I got the books and then found the site. Been awhile though. The books were helpful.
Kev,
Wanted to throw my financial opinion in. You should probably look into some local or more inexpensive ways to show your girls a good time. I know it's tempting to want to do something grand, especially during these tough times but you need a nest egg.
Another option would be to borrow from your 401K. That way you would be paying any interest back to yourself.
Also check out GodSaveMyMarriage.org and read through the 2x4's there.
[quote=TulsaTime]Kev,
Wanted to throw my financial opinion in. You should probably look into some local or more inexpensive ways to show your girls a good time. I know it's tempting to want to do something grand, especially during these tough times but you need a nest egg.
Another option would be to borrow from your 401K. That way you would be paying any interest back to yourself.
NO he would not pay "interest" on his money. He'd pay taxes on the 401k withdrawal, AND He'd pay a penalty. AND IF he were to repay his "self loan" back into the 401k, - which he does not plan to do as far as I know- then he would again pay taxes on his later withdrawals....SO first off he's paying taxes on his withdrawal at probably an effective tax rate of 15-25% in his case, PLUS the penalty he never gets back, &if & when he withdraws it years later, he AGAIN pays taxes on it. Twice the taxes and a penalty...this is why borrowing from a 401k is such a big no no. The exceptions (that only avoid a penalty-but still charge the taxes twice on withdrawals) are for home buying and medical costs, last I checked. I KNOW they don't make an exception for holidays or paying off other credit card debt.
He could borrow without penalty from A ROTH IRA and b/c it's purchased with after tax dollars, there's no tax on a withdrawal and the withdrawal rules are more flexible too. Why? b/c Wealthier folks don't get to have ROTH IRAs. For those who qualify, a ROTH is a very good start. Only a 401k with matching contributions from your employer makes sense if you can't do both, and most people in the income level who can get a ROTH, believe they don't make enough to do both, so they have to choose....so I typically recommend paying into the 401k only to the extent your company matches, since it's free money but take any available funds left and put them into a ROTH. I do not say this for K4 though b/c he's the type to borrow from his retirement[/b]...hence my opinion that he do the ROTH and then if he has extra, fund a 401k or save for a home...The ROTH is paid for with after tax money so his withdrawals, (which I pray he won't make), cost him NO penalty and NO taxes..If your company does NOT make a contribution, forget the 401k until AFTER you fund a ROTH. That is not unusual advice; it's pretty standard. (See Suze Orman for her advice--it's the same)
Lately a few in Congress have made some rumblings about taxing 401ks NOW to get revenue. I don't think it'll pass but it gives me pause that they are even thinking of it...
K4, a If you want a basic "easy to read" introduction to all this, and you don't know the financial world's jargon, read "[b]The Wealthy Barber" b/c it's told in a story format...or read Personal Finance for Dummies...and go from there. It's very empowering and it's adult to know these things. If I had read them when I was 24, we would likely be retired now. Try search engines or sites such as money.com, smartmoney.com, schwabb.com, vanguard.com to compare the advantages of the retirement vehicles allowed.
Are you familiar with compound growth/ interest? Einstein called it the 8th wonder of the world. When you read up on it, look up "Compound Interest/Growth" and "the rule of 72" for predictions of how fast your money would grow at a given growth rate.
For instance if someone were to leave your d's $10,000 as, say a graduation "gift" (Hey, it could happen!), and they added NOTHING to it, never touched it but invested it in a good diversified mutual fund (not under the mattress) that grows at the same rate the stock market has, over time, in the past 135 years--when they're ready to retire in their late 60's, without saving or adding ANY OTHER MONEY to the original $10k, they'd have over a million bucks.
So let's keep it simple and say it's $10k growing OVER TIME to equate to annual growth of 10%....what do you think it equates to in say 50 years?
Due to the rule of 72, @10%growth, it doubles every 7.2 years...So $10k at age 18 = $20k@ 25, and $40k@age32, $80k@age39, $160k/age46
$320k@age 53, then $640k@61 and @69 y/o, it doubles to over a million...($1,280,000.00$......) And imagine if they were ever to save for an IRA as well....how much faster they'd be rich and that would not take a big life style change for most couples. You start with a $10k bonus/gift, and then leave it alone but also do a ROTH IRA of maybe $400 monthly and you start before you're 30...yeah, we'd all be rich sooner.
If you hate financial jargon, and want to read an easy "Story format" about money, then read "The Wealthy Barber", or "Personal Finance for Dummies" which are both books I read first.
It's vitally important for ALL of us to know this info and it's empowering for those left behind without the same resources our WAS might have...to manage our money wisely.
3 types of income....ordinary earned income--you gotta be there WORKING/PRODUCING to get the money--hardest kind of income, & most common.
Passive income--like interest on bonds, or rental income on property--homes or apartments or commercial real estate--pays you even when you do nothing b/c you already bought it and now someone pays you money....(and hopefully it exceeds the mortage and IS income)...It's Money you can earn laying in bed...maybe buying a fixer upper and renting it out, another idea.
Royalty Income from written pieces, or songs, film residuals, etc. every time it shows/plays, you get a residual. So you don't have to be working THAT day. You could be on vacation and get a check for a re-run or another publication of your book...or software design...for instance....
To retire, simply put, Our goal is to replace ordinary earned income requiring our labor, with the other kinds, or you'll always be working...get it? Make sense?
More later, but wanted to correct the misperception that you'd "pay yourself interest"...by borrowing from your 401k.
Sorry for the Essay on Personal Finance, 101. I know it can be boring but being financially independent IS NOT BORING...and it IS the grown up thing to be.
j-
Thanks 25, this is great advice
Thanks and you are totally welcome and I do apologize for the diatribe on finance.
But there are many sites that you can google that will say "Roth IRA vs 401k" and answer these questions (k4, I have no idea where you were looking or what you typed in but I am overwhelmed by the amount of info out there)...it's all out there and as long as you are not getting biased advice (like the kind from people selling you "Living Trusts" or stocks or charging you fees,) then read up on it and make informed choices...
good luck,
J-
Kev,
You enjoy that Cowboys game as much as I did?
Jon, yes. 25, Thanks.
Kevin
Just a quick update. I took D7 Christmas and clothes shopping with me today. D12 didn't want to go. I got clothes for me and D7. I'd say I picked out some pretty smooth looking stuff. Need to revamp the wardrobe so I started doing just that. D7 needed some stuff so I took care of that. D7 has to get D12 a pair of pajamas for her Christmas present. Everybody drew names and we are going to give each other their pajamas on Friday. The whole family decided this and is doing it to save money and not put anyone on the spot. I didn't inquire with W other than to tell her I took care of it so she doesn't also do it.
Then I had to pay our auto insurance bill. I told W. She wanted to wait until Monday when she could depsosit money into her account. That struck me as odd because her checks get automatically deposited into her account. It also struck me as odd that she didn't have the money to pay her half of the insurance bill. Again, she makes almost twice what I make, and she didn't have the money to pay her half? Something isn't adding up there. I said it is already past due as it was due Thursday. I just went ahead and paid it and said we will work it out on Monday. I didn't hear back from her.
I am taking more of a role in getting things taken care of for my daughters without asking or relying on W. That is a step in the right direction. I really didn't want to do this, but I think I am going to have to separate the accounts. She seems to have plenty of money for her personal life, but none for bills and little for the kids lately. I'm not sure what is going on.
Kevin
The other thing is our Christmas tree looks so unprofessional. lol. But it does because I let the kids fully do it the way they wanted to. It would never fly with W. But I don't care. I love that they did it and it reflects their work. The effort by the kids is more important to me than the tree looking perfect.
Paid bills. Heading to bed. Good night all,
Kevin
Yep let them have fun with the tree. The kids (mine share a room) have a smaller tree in their room. I let them decorate it themselves, and just let it stay that way. They love it!
You should see our tree! We only have ornaments on the top half. Baby was taking them and either hiding them or breaking them.
GET THE ACCOUNTS SEPARATE! Then W can pay her own. She knows you will handle it.
Love them Cowboys!
The other thing is our Christmas tree looks so unprofessional.
Mine too. It's a hodge podge of noodley ornaments and nice stuff. All of my friends tell me to put all the kid stuff on another tree, but I think that sends a message that their stuff isn't good enough. Someday I'll have a Martha Stewart tree, but for now, I'll settle for noodles glued on constuction paper wreaths. lol
You are a good dad.
The other thing is our Christmas tree looks so unprofessional.
Mine too. It's a hodge podge of noodley ornaments and nice stuff. All of my friends tell me to put all the kid stuff on another tree, but I think that sends a message that their stuff isn't good enough. Someday I'll have a Martha Stewart tree, but for now, I'll settle for noodles glued on constuction paper wreaths. lol
You are a good dad.
I totally cherish the handmade things my kids have done over the years. When we do the tree they always smile and laugh at the stuff they did so long ago.
I agree, my D10 made an ornament in preschool when she was 3. It's supposed to be a gingerbread man, but it looks like a burlap blob sewn with red yarn. She puts it on the tree with pride every year.
For me the kids keep the Christmas spirit alive. It would be pretty meaningless without them given the obvious situation. Everything they do is special to me this season.
Today W wants to sync up on Christmas gifts for the kids. She bought some and I bought some. Something that just occured to me. Are the gifts going to say from mommy or from daddy this year outside of the usual ones that we will put from Santa? It has always been from mommy and daddy. Geez, if so, what a joke. But then again, this whole situation is a complete joke.
Ok, got to get my day going. I have a bit more shopping to do and work around the place so that it looks nice when W comes over Christmas morning.
Kevin
If you bought them, have them say from Daddy.
Make your place look nice for YOU, not because she is coming over.
Thanks SG,
I guess for me, my place doesn't have to be perfect. It is kept up, it just isn't 100% perfect looking.
But you are right. It should be for me. I guess I just want it to be perfect for W when she comes. I want to make the best impression I can on her.
Kevin
I already know what I am going to wear. I picked up some stuff yesterday. I will definitely be looking good. I have to get my hair cut again. I am going to do everything I can think of to wow her.
I will probably be 2x4'd for this. But I'm taking my shot at it anyways.
Kevin
There is no such thing as perfection. I hope you know that.
Make YOUR place how YOU want it. Get a haircut/new clothes to WOW yourself. And while your W is in YOUR home let her know by your ACTIONS you are the man of the house and you take the lead as far as your children are concerned. IMO if she is nothing more than a visitor in your home attending for a holiday celebration. I feel that would make a bigger impact on her than anything.
So often (in most cases I think and certainly in my own experience) the WAS wants the perks of marriage and family when it is obligatory (holiday, b-day or they need help/support) but when they don't want it, they just blow you off. It is of my opinion (and yes, we all have opinions) that so many LBS's block their own healing and forward movement when they allow the WAS to have the perks of marriage and family when they choose. Your W has opted out of the perks of a marriage and in tact family on a full time basis so when she is included she should be treated with the same courtesy you would treat any other random guests but not doted on or coddled as a spouse.
Shower yourself and girls with happiness and attention and let her see that she is now an outsider (who is still treated with kindness as you would any guest) but certainly not part of an in tact nuclear family simply because it is a holiday.
That is the exact reason I no longer answer my H's "happy holiday" texts or any other text/message unless it is about further execution of our Agreement. He opted out and no longer gets the perks of having a loyal and fantastic friend and wife. Its not about being rude or unkind. To me it's about actions and I choose to not have a part time friend/husband when he has a few spare and private moments away from his long term affair.
On the rare occasion I do have to see my H I am smiley, pleasant and polite as I would be to any random person I don't have a relationship of any sort with. I simply view him as an outsider and while I know that hurts him it's a very direct consequence of his actions over the past 21 months.
It certainly will take some powerful restraint on your part but make the holiday all about you and your girls and view your W as a guest who was fortunate enough to be included. Be kind but shower yourself and your girls with attention and love. She chose to dismantle the family. Show her you have created a new one. Let her be the one to engage conversation. As I said, be happy, polite, civil and welcoming to her as you would to any other guest you would have in your home for a holiday celebration. That is how I would handle it.
Happy Holidays.
Great post CG! Very right on for all of us.
So often (in most cases I think and certainly in my own experience) the WAS wants the perks of marriage and family when it is obligatory (holiday, b-day or they need help/support) but when they don't want it, they just blow you off. It is of my opinion (and yes, we all have opinions) that so many LBS's block their own healing and forward movement when they allow the WAS to have the perks of marriage and family when they choose. Your W has opted out of the perks of a marriage and in tact family on a full time basis so when she is included she should be treated with the same courtesy you would treat any other random guests but not doted on or coddled as a spouse.
They do want the part time family life and then be free to live their life apart from the family. It doesn't work that way in the real world.
Two things:
no, 3 things...I'm tired...done wrapping though!
Okay First, Your comment about dressing to wow your stbxw is still off the mark even though the result is good. You want to look your best b/c you are ON your best b/c you deserve it, after all,
you are meeting interesting people, going to new places and doing fascinating things!! And you're a good looking guy with women who are interested in you if you let them, and you'd be dating if you felt like it and you have stuff going on in your life....but to do it for her...???? Hello???? No. She'd be a blind fool not to notice the new you so if she's a blind fool, that's HER problem not yours....next issue....
You are unbelievably missing all of our points about
being your own man and [u]not needing her approval.[/u] I know,
you can't/won't be strong enough to do that and yet the weakness is what repels her but you can't/won't change that and so blah blah blah you are stuck... 
you are one thick headed dude.
Being upbeat and taking care of yourself is b/c you ARE Doing that for your life to improve for you to be happier...anyhow...not FOR her...
anyway........moving....on....
2)
A slight issue with the cake eating thing. I get it. But I wonder... if it were me, (and once upon a time it was)... I'd make sure you project what COULD be your wife's life, if she were to choose it, and so you want to contrast the warmth and joy and family life you all will have
temporarily, with the life your wife is choosing to have instead. So while
I agree with CG and others about not letting your wife cake eat, I say that goes more to the bills STILL now worked out, and changing child care plans at the last minute, often, and verbally abusing you, in front of the girls, her not having any problems crossing your boundaries-- and her yet enforcing her own on you.But as for the Holy day itself, why not make it fun and happy? Would it really offend you to put "mommy and daddy" on the gifts? Isn't that really you wanting to show your wife some tiny point that will either be a
painful reminder for your children that you are divorcing, AND you two cannot get your acts together to unite for gifts on Christmas, and you are also trying to "teach your Xw a lesson"--which we all know is not our jobs to do... and almost always means we're trying in some way to punish?
Yeah it's a fine line between being punitive-- and enforcing a healthy boundary, but In your case, it's
not as if she bought them nothing- while you spent all your money on gifts is it? Isn't it more likely she paid more?
This isn't a boundary to me. It's petty and ironically the boundaries that really count, like the bill paying and the child care are the battles you hide from but on this point, you want to make a stand?
Some day your d's will finish high school or college, and then one will marry. If your xw has remarried a wealthy guy which seems to be her plan du jour, and they are paying for 90% of the wedding b/c you didn't save a cent for it, or make enough, etc...and let' say you walk the d down the aisle...imagine that your xw and her h pay most of the wedding BUT say "it's from US"
and they include you...they don't apportion it, or say Only a little from dad, or K4 has to buy his own puny gift b/c blah blah blah he makes less money and blah blah blah....ideally if it comes down to divorce ---don't you want to avoid any type of competing with gifts? Thing is,
the kids lose the most with that. (And I have a feeling you will lose there too buddy. You harp about money and your lack of it, but you want to be picky and specific on this issue. Even if your gifts this year are greater, what about next year? This is not a good precedent to set. As long as you have Christmases together, I'd say the gifts come from you both (until OM or OW come into the pic. Cross that bridge later...)
My older brother and his Xwife put both their names for years b/c they did discuss the gift purchases with each other, and though they paid different amounts, each parent wanted their d to feel loved by them both and not that they were in a competition. Just as both parents will be proud the day their d graduates,
they won't say "I am proud BUT this comes from ME ONLY, ... I can't speak for your mother..." You can mock it all you want, but I think it's the high road -FOR NOW-and anyhow you keep saying
you are still married...and it seems petty to say "from DADDY ONLY" on a card, thereby reminding them of the sep and looming divorce by effectively pointing it out. Plus if our X W spends more than you anyhow, how do you lose? Seems a little odd that she's willing to have your name on the gifts she bought b/c she may have paid more. ANd if not, so what? Isn't her rent/over head a lot higher than yours too? I know SHE wanted the divorce. In her mind it was justified (at the time it was justified in your mind too)...
I don't feel super strongly about this, but I think it's worth pointing out.Again, if you want to project
"this is what could be" for us,
then do it right. Be a strong confident man who doesn't second guess his choices and who does not worry about his wife staring at him or whether he's good enough, BUT does care about his daughters feeling that Santa visited them and they got good gifts from both parents AND that both parents put aside their anger issues & scorecards for them,
b/c both parents really love them so much that their anger at each other (or their desire to [b]"teach the spouse a lesson" and "make a point" was not in the Christmas spirit. Leave those lessons for another day perhaps?[/b] SO YOU KNOW, I say all this even though it may seem counter intuitive, b/c it's based on DB advice my coach gave me 2-3 Christmases back.
I did not want to pretend all was well w/H. I wanted my h to sleep on the couch and be a guest. I wanted him to taste the down side of single life in the sense that he could not get his "family fix" and yet live elsewhere...but my DB coach took another approach...again, our sitch was not identical and h never said "get out, you repel me" or that he wanted a divorce...he had a "mission" that didn't include us and made it clear at the time that the task he wanted outweighed all else in his life.
And everyone of us has to make the ML choices we make based on what we can handle AND what's safe if there's an OP in the picture for example.
But my DB coach told me something I'll never forget, --
"Contrast the negative images he's created to justify his choice, with positive images that undermine the negative. Contrast the warmth and love he can find at home, with whatever he's finding out there in the cold tundra..."
and see what happens" and since it was only a few days, I was able to pull it off. We had a great Christmas...and another turning point I think. And more positive memories for the kids.
It was a gamble no matter what I did. But as I said, it wasn't a long period of time and it was for the children to remember playing happily and if that meant a few days more of happy family memories, then so be it. That much more for a WAS to miss...Later h would say how much he missed them and us...i was NOT needy, I was upbeat, attractive, happy with the kids and NOT showing awareness of h except when he spoke and then I was interested in him (like CG says) but I was also warm and complimentary ...it was only a few days. You only have to be strong and happy (WITHOUT LOOKING EXCITED OR EAGER) one day.
That's my take. CG, we may agree to disagree and you could be totally right, But consider this too...do you think K4 can pull off any type of
detachment without anger if he's trying to show her how good he looks and being upbeat AND yet makes sure she "knows her place" and all is NOT well? IS this the time to make that clear? Seems to me you don't want your w to enjoy herself and that's kind of counter intuitive b/c again, she's supposed to associate you with warmth/love/leadership/partnership but all I hear is guilt arrows you're shooting at her, and some begging. I hear a lot of increasing resentment in his posts for this time of year and if K4, if you drink, I foresee a fight. In fact , I envision a bad bitter scene/major backslide about to take place if you won't play nice for the day...just my two cents...
One thing I'm SURE of is
DO NOT overthink this. Take an approach and stick to it, and be there fully present for your daughters. In fact, once the gifts are wrapped, and everyone's there, why even ponder your w? This day is for lovers and children...not estranged spouses suspecting and maneuvering...stop that b/c it's not going to work anyhow, and it's SO not the right focus. CHRISTmas...make it about the kids and not the scorecard.
Be a man who is happy on his own (fake it til you make it on that score) and brings something to the table that is NOT a need from his estranged wife. Someone with interests and compassion and lots of vibrant love and joy in his heart. And AT the end of the day when w is leaving--all that ENDS and she's not in the warm fun loving home of laughter and hugs and joy....
let her figure that out. Back off and she just might...
the harder you hold onto her, the more she'll pull away. (rabbits and foxes...)
Oh, k4, may seem like a chick flick/date movie, but RENT the movie "the holiday" (not Queen Latifahs' but the one with Cameron Diaz/ Kate Winslet/jack Black and Jude Law) and
make sure you listen to the speech Kate makes to the man who broke her heart but then wants to win her back...listen carefully and see how good you'll feel.Merry Christmas
j-
PS hope this makes sense as I'm falling asleep now...
ah, scratch "the secret agent" as a southern boy you should read "the sound and the fury."
btw, for month and months and months, 25yearsmlc been ripping you a new one. when you gonna stand up to her?
I agree with the Xmas gifts and day. Put Mommy and Daddy on the tag and be cheerful and nice. It will only hurt your girls if your not. Not saying to sit next to her and hold her hand, but be friendly and nice as you would treat a houseguest. Remember your girls are watching.
There is no such thing as perfection. I hope you know that.
You haven't seen someone as anal as my W who will work through the night and the morning before going to sleep to make sure perfection is met.
Make YOUR place how YOU want it. Get a haircut/new clothes to WOW yourself. And while your W is in YOUR home let her know by your ACTIONS you are the man of the house and you take the lead as far as your children are concerned. IMO if she is nothing more than a visitor in your home attending for a holiday celebration. I feel that would make a bigger impact on her than anything.
So often (in most cases I think and certainly in my own experience) the WAS wants the perks of marriage and family when it is obligatory (holiday, b-day or they need help/support) but when they don't want it, they just blow you off. It is of my opinion (and yes, we all have opinions) that so many LBS's block their own healing and forward movement when they allow the WAS to have the perks of marriage and family when they choose. Your W has opted out of the perks of a marriage and in tact family on a full time basis so when she is included she should be treated with the same courtesy you would treat any other random guests but not doted on or coddled as a spouse.
Shower yourself and girls with happiness and attention and let her see that she is now an outsider (who is still treated with kindness as you would any guest) but certainly not part of an in tact nuclear family simply because it is a holiday.
That is the exact reason I no longer answer my H's "happy holiday" texts or any other text/message unless it is about further execution of our Agreement. He opted out and no longer gets the perks of having a loyal and fantastic friend and wife. Its not about being rude or unkind. To me it's about actions and I choose to not have a part time friend/husband when he has a few spare and private moments away from his long term affair.
On the rare occasion I do have to see my H I am smiley, pleasant and polite as I would be to any random person I don't have a relationship of any sort with. I simply view him as an outsider and while I know that hurts him it's a very direct consequence of his actions over the past 21 months.
It certainly will take some powerful restraint on your part but make the holiday all about you and your girls and view your W as a guest who was fortunate enough to be included. Be kind but shower yourself and your girls with attention and love. She chose to dismantle the family. Show her you have created a new one. Let her be the one to engage conversation. As I said, be happy, polite, civil and welcoming to her as you would to any other guest you would have in your home for a holiday celebration. That is how I would handle it.
I appreciate that CG. And I totally get what you are saying. Only one thing I would say is my W is not looking for family perks. She feels obligated to do the birthdays with me for the kids sake. I had to extend the invitation for Christmas morning together. That was not part of her plans. She is trying to keep Christmas as separate as possible with our girls from me except for Christmas day in which her mom extended an invitation to me. I wasn't invited to go to the movies with her and my girls Friday night. She has made no mention of doing Christmas eve together. She and the girls went and had Christmas pictures made together without me. She is talking about taking the girls to see Santa on Tuesday night which is her night with them. She hasn't sought any perks at all.
Just a few notes to input here. I did see W last night. I had to stop by because D12 left her phone charger there at the house. So W asked that I come in and leave the girls in the car since she had their presents in the living room unwrapped. Fortunately I had gotten my hair cut and styled and was wearing all new stylish clothes looking pretty dang good as this was unexpected. Anyways, I go inside and she goes through everything that she got the girls. We had both agreed on how much we would spend on the girls and while I haven't quite met that amount yet, but still need to get a few things tomorrow night, W definitely passed that and is planning much more. I am not going to try and compete with her. W did get me a gift that she knew I would just love and gave it to me last night because it was a Christmas decorative peice that she wanted me to be able to display and said it couldn't wait until Christmas. So I guess that answers the question of are we getting each other something for Christmas. And of course, I have no idea what to get her in return. Then she offered me one of the pictures she had done with the girls for Christmas. I accepted although looking at it without me in it hurt some. But I was smiley and accepted as well as my gift. She was very nice last night. She even started purchasing stocking stuffers and showed those to me as well.
I will of course be civil come Friday morning and not over engage in conversation. D12 brought up Christmas day at MIL's house with me last night and said that she was talking to MIL and MIL I guess told her if there is anyone fighting then someone will have to leave. So D12 tells me that she asked MIL what if W is the one that starts it. So MIL told her that W will have to leave then if she is the one that starts it. I'm not sure why D12 brought this up to me as I didn't inquire about it. But I have no plans of fighting with W now or in the future. I'm sure not going to do it on Christmas day. To much at stake that day for everyone including myself. This is a big moment coming up that I have to be my absolute best, no questions asked. My main goal is to be friendly with everyone and simply focus on the girls and their Christmas as much as possible that day until W and the girls leave for their movie.
Kevin
Kevin pretend like this is the first NEW Christmas of many. This is how the future will be unless your W will have some big change which at the moment doesn't seem likely. Alot of D people do the holidays together for the first few years at least. My first exh and I did until I got remarried and our kids got older. You are not on display at Xmas..you are participating for your girls.
You can do this!
To me, perfection is obtained when you put all your effort in to whatever it is you are doing and you are pleased with the outcome. That is personal perfection (IMO) and if somebody else doesn't see it that way then so what?
If you are happy the way YOUR house looks and the events you planned for Christmas Eve and you put in all the effort you can then it's YOUR perfection. It may not be your W's perfection but the goal here is to create YOUR version of perfection that pleases you.
I used to be the most anal person on the planet and would spend hours making things "perfect" and get very bent if one little thing went wrong. I imagine it was terribly annoying to those around me. I was missing out on precious moments that everybody else was experiencing in order to obtain perfection. When in fact perfection really is more about the experience and not how perfect a bow is or how grand a table setting is.
It was thoughtful for your W to get you a gift that she thought you would enjoy. I think you handled that well. Do you feel obligated to get her a gift because she purchased you one? IMO that is the wrong reason to give a gift. I don't feel you have to give her a gift simply because she got you one. And you did say in your post "now I don't know what to get her in return". You don't have to get her anything "in return". Simply drop her a note in the mail thanking her for the gift as you would to anybody else that purchased you a gift.
Two things:
no, 3 things...I'm tired...done wrapping though!
My night is coming for wrapping.
Okay First, Your comment about dressing to wow your stbxw is still off the mark even though the result is good. You want to look your best b/c you are ON your best b/c you deserve it, after all, you are meeting interesting people, going to new places and doing fascinating things!! And you're a good looking guy with women who are interested in you if you let them, and you'd be dating if you felt like it and you have stuff going on in your life....but to do it for her...???? Hello???? No. She'd be a blind fool not to notice the new you so if she's a blind fool, that's HER problem not yours....next issue....
I think I am being over complimented here. Let me get my telescope and see where the line of women starts. lol.
You are unbelievably missing all of our points about being your own man and not needing her approval. I know, you can't/won't be strong enough to do that and yet the weakness is what repels her but you can't/won't change that and so blah blah blah you are stuck... you are one thick headed dude.
Being upbeat and taking care of yourself is b/c you ARE Doing that for your life to improve for you to be happier...anyhow...not FOR her... anyway........moving....on....
I may be weak inside, but I don't show weakness to my W anymore. I haven't done that in some time. I am not depressed, negative, pessimistic, angry, or anything in front of her. I keep those feelings to myself and basically wear a mask in front of her. I'd be surprised if she could still read it as I have worked hard to not reflect any of that in front of her.
2)
A slight issue with the cake eating thing. I get it. But I wonder... if it were me, (and once upon a time it was)... I'd make sure you project what COULD be your wife's life, if she were to choose it, and so you want to contrast the warmth and joy and family life you all will have temporarily, with the life your wife is choosing to have instead. So while I agree with CG and others about not letting your wife cake eat, I say that goes more to the bills STILL now worked out, and changing child care plans at the last minute, often, and verbally abusing you, in front of the girls, her not having any problems crossing your boundaries-- and her yet enforcing her own on you.
I don't think she verbally abuses me in front of the girls unless I have forgotten about something. I think the life my W is choosing is being projected into reality for me and my girls. I see your point about projecting it fully into a new life for me and my girls as it seems to be on the forefront. I will admit and I will probably get hammered for this, but I am trying to tell myself that God works when things seem their bleakest and most hopeless. Believe me, I live with the reality thoughts of what life is looking like every day. And I think about the future without her and her whoever the latest sugardaddy is.
But as for the Holy day itself, why not make it fun and happy? Would it really offend you to put "mommy and daddy" on the gifts? Isn't that really you wanting to show your wife some tiny point that will either be a painful reminder for your children that you are divorcing, AND you two cannot get your acts together to unite for gifts on Christmas, and you are also trying to "teach your Xw a lesson"--which we all know is not our jobs to do... and almost always means we're trying in some way to punish? Yeah it's a fine line between being punitive-- and enforcing a healthy boundary, but In your case, it's not as if she bought them nothing- while you spent all your money on gifts is it? Isn't it more likely she paid more? This isn't a boundary to me. It's petty and ironically the boundaries that really count, like the bill paying and the child care are the battles you hide from but on this point, you want to make a stand?
I think you missed what I was saying here. I wanted the gifts to be from both mommy and daddy. I'm not sure if she has the same intentions which somewhat bothered me. I wanted to be united on this and hopefully we will.
Some day your d's will finish high school or college, and then one will marry. If your xw has remarried a wealthy guy which seems to be her plan du jour, and they are paying for 90% of the wedding b/c you didn't save a cent for it, or make enough, etc...and let' say you walk the d down the aisle...imagine that your xw and her h pay most of the wedding BUT say "it's from US" and they include you...they don't apportion it, or say Only a little from dad, or K4 has to buy his own puny gift b/c blah blah blah he makes less money and blah blah blah....ideally if it comes down to divorce ---don't you want to avoid any type of competing with gifts? Thing is, the kids lose the most with that. (And I have a feeling you will lose there too buddy. You harp about money and your lack of it, but you want to be picky and specific on this issue. Even if your gifts this year are greater, what about next year? This is not a good precedent to set. As long as you have Christmases together, I'd say the gifts come from you both (until OM or OW come into the pic. Cross that bridge later...)
Again, you missed what I was saying. I say they come from both of us to. That is what I was trying to say I would prefer and want.
My older brother and his Xwife put both their names for years b/c they did discuss the gift purchases with each other, and though they paid different amounts, each parent wanted their d to feel loved by them both and not that they were in a competition. Just as both parents will be proud the day their d graduates, they won't say "I am proud BUT this comes from ME ONLY, ... I can't speak for your mother..." You can mock it all you want, but I think it's the high road -FOR NOW-and anyhow you keep saying you are still married...and it seems petty to say "from DADDY ONLY" on a card, thereby reminding them of the sep and looming divorce by effectively pointing it out. Plus if our X W spends more than you anyhow, how do you lose? Seems a little odd that she's willing to have your name on the gifts she bought b/c she may have paid more. ANd if not, so what? Isn't her rent/over head a lot higher than yours too? I know SHE wanted the divorce. In her mind it was justified (at the time it was justified in your mind too)... I don't feel super strongly about this, but I think it's worth pointing out.
25, you and me are on the same page here. You just misread what I wrote.
Again, if you want to project "this is what could be" for us, then do it right. Be a strong confident man who doesn't second guess his choices and who does not worry about his wife staring at him or whether he's good enough, BUT does care about his daughters feeling that Santa visited them and they got good gifts from both parents AND that both parents put aside their anger issues & scorecards for them, b/c both parents really love them so much that their anger at each other (or their desire to "teach the spouse a lesson" and "make a point" was not in the Christmas spirit. Leave those lessons for another day perhaps?
There are no lessons being taught here to W. There is nothing I can teach her anyways. I sure wouldn't do it for Christmas.
SO YOU KNOW, I say all this even though it may seem counter intuitive, b/c it's based on DB advice my coach gave me 2-3 Christmases back. I did not want to pretend all was well w/H. I wanted my h to sleep on the couch and be a guest. I wanted him to taste the down side of single life in the sense that he could not get his "family fix" and yet live elsewhere...but my DB coach took another approach...again, our sitch was not identical and h never said "get out, you repel me" or that he wanted a divorce...he had a "mission" that didn't include us and made it clear at the time that the task he wanted outweighed all else in his life.
And everyone of us has to make the ML choices we make based on what we can handle AND what's safe if there's an OP in the picture for example.
But my DB coach told me something I'll never forget, --"Contrast the negative images he's created to justify his choice, with positive images that undermine the negative. Contrast the warmth and love he can find at home, with whatever he's finding out there in the cold tundra..." and see what happens" and since it was only a few days, I was able to pull it off. We had a great Christmas...and another turning point I think. And more positive memories for the kids.
It was a gamble no matter what I did. But as I said, it wasn't a long period of time and it was for the children to remember playing happily and if that meant a few days more of happy family memories, then so be it. That much more for a WAS to miss...Later h would say how much he missed them and us...i was NOT needy, I was upbeat, attractive, happy with the kids and NOT showing awareness of h except when he spoke and then I was interested in him (like CG says) but I was also warm and complimentary ...it was only a few days. You only have to be strong and happy (WITHOUT LOOKING EXCITED OR EAGER) one day.
That's my take. CG, we may agree to disagree and you could be totally right, But consider this too...do you think K4 can pull off any type of detachment without anger if he's trying to show her how good he looks and being upbeat AND yet makes sure she "knows her place" and all is NOT well? IS this the time to make that clear? Seems to me you don't want your w to enjoy herself and that's kind of counter intuitive b/c again, she's supposed to associate you with warmth/love/leadership/partnership but all I hear is guilt arrows you're shooting at her, and some begging. I hear a lot of increasing resentment in his posts for this time of year and if K4, if you drink, I foresee a fight. In fact , I envision a bad bitter scene/major backslide about to take place if you won't play nice for the day...just my two cents...
This is my big test. I have been waiting for a moment like this for a long time. I will not be drinking. Believe me, I already had to think about that as the liquor will be out and abundant and the rest of them will be. I already decided and will stick with it that not a drop of alcohol will touch my lips. 25, I am putting everything I have into making Christmas day the best possible for everyone including myself I can. I would love for this to be a turning point and I will in no way screw this opportunity up regardless of what is said on this board. I have a mission and I will execute it regardless of opinions on here. I am taking my shot at this like I said. Infact, I intend to reread this Christmas eve and morning to make sure I have everything dotted and crossed.
One thing I'm SURE of is DO NOT overthink this. Take an approach and stick to it, and be there fully present for your daughters. In fact, once the gifts are wrapped, and everyone's there, why even ponder your w? This day is for lovers and children...not estranged spouses suspecting and maneuvering...stop that b/c it's not going to work anyhow, and it's SO not the right focus. CHRISTmas...make it about the kids and not the scorecard.
There is no scorecard here. And I intend to fully focus on the kids and make it a great day. I will not let anything
Be a man who is happy on his own (fake it til you make it on that score) and brings something to the table that is NOT a need from his estranged wife. Someone with interests and compassion and lots of vibrant love and joy in his heart. And AT the end of the day when w is leaving--all that ENDS and she's not in the warm fun loving home of laughter and hugs and joy....let her figure that out. Back off and she just might...
the harder you hold onto her, the more she'll pull away. (rabbits and foxes...)
I fully understand this and it is my game plan to execute.
Oh, k4, may seem like a chick flick/date movie, but RENT the movie "the holiday" (not Queen Latifahs' but the one with Cameron Diaz/ Kate Winslet/jack Black and Jude Law) and make sure you listen to the speech Kate makes to the man who broke her heart but then wants to win her back...listen carefully and see how good you'll feel.
I will rent this tomorrow night and watch it. Thanks for the help.
Merry Christmas
j-
PS hope this makes sense as I'm falling asleep now...
Merry Christmas to you to 25. It makes sense. Thanks for staying up and helping me execute Christmas the best possible way I can to give everything the best shot possible.
Kevin
ah, scratch "the secret agent" as a southern boy you should read "the sound and the fury."
btw, for month and months and months, 25yearsmlc been ripping you a new one. when you gonna stand up to her?
Stand up to her for what? For spending countless hours and time trying to help me turn things around especially with the biggest chance I have coming in a few days that I have not had in over a year to make the best impression possible for me and my family and hopefully hit a turning point in all of this?
Kevin
I agree with the Xmas gifts and day. Put Mommy and Daddy on the tag and be cheerful and nice. It will only hurt your girls if your not. Not saying to sit next to her and hold her hand, but be friendly and nice as you would treat a houseguest. Remember your girls are watching.
I am putting from mommy and daddy on mine. Infact I think I will let her know I am and then the choice is hers if she wants to or not. Yes the girls are watching and I will not screw this up. Like I said, I am taking my shot here. This is my one opportunity to hit a turning point. I intend to take it. As 25 says, it is a gamble, but one I am prepared to make. I may not get another opportunity for a long time. This could determine a lot about how things go in the future.
Kevin
To me, perfection is obtained when you put all your effort in to whatever it is you are doing and you are pleased with the outcome. That is personal perfection (IMO) and if somebody else doesn't see it that way then so what?
If you are happy the way YOUR house looks and the events you planned for Christmas Eve and you put in all the effort you can then it's YOUR perfection. It may not be your W's perfection but the goal here is to create YOUR version of perfection that pleases you.
I used to be the most anal person on the planet and would spend hours making things "perfect" and get very bent if one little thing went wrong. I imagine it was terribly annoying to those around me. I was missing out on precious moments that everybody else was experiencing in order to obtain perfection. When in fact perfection really is more about the experience and not how perfect a bow is or how grand a table setting is.
I am fairly happy, well, will be once I finish getting my place just a little better done up. I understand about being happy with it for myself. But knowing that a lot might be riding on how Christmas day goes, I just want to make the best impression possible in every way I can.
It was thoughtful for your W to get you a gift that she thought you would enjoy. I think you handled that well. Do you feel obligated to get her a gift because she purchased you one? IMO that is the wrong reason to give a gift. I don't feel you have to give her a gift simply because she got you one. And you did say in your post "now I don't know what to get her in return". You don't have to get her anything "in return". Simply drop her a note in the mail thanking her for the gift as you would to anybody else that purchased you a gift.
Thanks CG. I will think it over on the gift.
Kevin
Just be careful of expectations ...........
Just be careful of expectations ...........
Drew, I think that might be where people are confused here. This is a gamble I am taking. You don't have expectations when you gamble. This could go either way. Its like the roulette table. Once that ball drops, you have done everything you can to make the best possible choice based off past streaks and what you know and where it lands, it lands. You live with the results.
That is what I am prepared to do.
Kevin
I sent W a text saying... "What you decide is up to you, but I am putting from mommy and daddy on the gifts I got for the kids. Let me know if you want me to go in half and half with you on the video camera for D7. Also, thanks again for the gift last night. D7 also loved it."
Kevin
She didn't respond, but I am just trying to throw out there that I am trying to be united. I don't know how she will take it. This should be interesting to see.
Kevin
Ok. She responded. She said she was just going to put from santa on hers. I texted her back saying cool. I was just letting her know. Thats all.
She said ok.
Kevin
Kevin. We all know what you are REALLY trying to do. STOP trying to get a reaction out of your WAW. You didnt need to tell her anything. If it was trully for the girls then you didnt need to tell her anything. It will come off like you are trying to "one-up" her. Stop trying to look so good and just do it.
oh, and one other thing. DETAAAAACCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Kevin,
I hoping for the best for you on Christmas. I think it is a big step to celebrate a holiday together. You are doing well, just keep on going. But as far as the texting goes, I do the same thing and I think we are doing the wrong thing. We really aren't detaching, I'm just as guilty as you are.
Oh I did my cliff notes if you want to hop over to my thread. You will see what I'm saying about the texting. I texted H last night just to say Hi and ask how he was doing and got no response. Another let down, but the day before he responded.
This should be interesting to see.
Did you get the response you thought?
How about you be interesting for a change? Do interesting things? Be interested in things other then what your wife might be thinking.
Ever notice how the women here think you are bone-headed, frustrating and don't listen. Think there is a trend? If you are like this IRL then no wonder your wife wants to D you. The first step to getting out of a hole is stop digging.
Kevin... what if you knew that this was the last Christmas you would have on this planet. I know it's a morbid thought but lets just say this is the case. How would you spend it? Would you channel *any* energy towards your W who is seemingly a "lost cause" at this point or would you relish and soak up every minute of your children?
It seems you are putting so much in place to WOW your W that you are missing the whole point of the holiday. JMO of course.
If you tell your W that 2+2=4 she is going to say that it equals 5. You keep throwing things out there to her thinking she will see things in a different way because you want her to.
Do you really think she cares what names are on what tags and if you put both your names that will indicate to her that you are still working on obtaining a "united front"?
Don't miss out on the true spirit of the holiday in order to WOW your W. You seem to be so busy focusing on the gamble you are taking the entire scope of what the holidays should be about is passing you right by.
Kevin. We all know what you are REALLY trying to do. STOP trying to get a reaction out of your WAW. You didnt need to tell her anything. If it was trully for the girls then you didnt need to tell her anything. It will come off like you are trying to "one-up" her. Stop trying to look so good and just do it.
oh, and one other thing. DETAAAAACCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
I was trying to see if we were being united on the gifts or not. I wasn't looking for any kind of reaction or to one up her. I was also just informing her of my intentions.
I think you are off the mark here.
Kevin
Kevin,
I hoping for the best for you on Christmas. I think it is a big step to celebrate a holiday together. You are doing well, just keep on going. But as far as the texting goes, I do the same thing and I think we are doing the wrong thing. We really aren't detaching, I'm just as guilty as you are.
Oh I did my cliff notes if you want to hop over to my thread. You will see what I'm saying about the texting. I texted H last night just to say Hi and ask how he was doing and got no response. Another let down, but the day before he responded.
The text I sent was strictly an informative text and to see if we were both united on this. Nothing more. I will stop by and take a look at your cliff notes.
Kevin
Kevin,
Stop lying to yourself. Everyone else here sees it.
YOUR intentions for YOUR gifts that YOU were giving to the girls. It had nothing to do with your wife.
Did you get the response you thought?
I didn't know what response to expect.
How about you be interesting for a change? Do interesting things? Be interested in things other then what your wife might be thinking.
Ever notice how the women here think you are bone-headed, frustrating and don't listen. Think there is a trend? If you are like this IRL then no wonder your wife wants to D you. The first step to getting out of a hole is stop digging.
I guess I was trying to dig to see if we were going to be united or not. Your point as always is well made Coach.
Kevin
Kevin... what if you knew that this was the last Christmas you would have on this planet. I know it's a morbid thought but lets just say this is the case. How would you spend it? Would you channel *any* energy towards your W who is seemingly a "lost cause" at this point or would you relish and soak up every minute of your children?
I would relish and soak up every minute with my kids as well as try to make things right/amends with my W and family before it being all over.
It seems you are putting so much in place to WOW your W that you are missing the whole point of the holiday. JMO of course.
If you tell your W that 2+2=4 she is going to say that it equals 5. You keep throwing things out there to her thinking she will see things in a different way because you want her to.
Do you really think she cares what names are on what tags and if you put both your names that will indicate to her that you are still working on obtaining a "united front"?
Don't miss out on the true spirit of the holiday in order to WOW your W. You seem to be so busy focusing on the gamble you are taking the entire scope of what the holidays should be about is passing you right by.
I am not missing the point of the Christmas spirit. I intend to make it as great as possible for my kids. But I am also throwing in a gamble to see if there can be a turning point along the way. I could look at the streaks and cover 75% of the board based on history and still have her land on the 25%. It is a gamble. But either way, my girls will have a good Christmas and I will be a pleasure to be around with her family. Whatever the day and day after brings, it brings. But I will be able to say I took a shot with everything.
Kevin
Kevin,
Stop lying to yourself. Everyone else here sees it.
YOUR intentions for YOUR gifts that YOU were giving to the girls. It had nothing to do with your wife.
Was there not talk on here about being united on the presents? Then what harm did it do to find out if that was going to be the case?
Kevin
Now W wants me to sign over the title to the van that has been sitting in her drive way so she can sell it or get rid of it. I said sure. No problem.
Kevin
Did you begin the process to settle your accounts so you are both 110% on your own financially?
She had no problem asking you to release ownership so she can do what she wants, now you do the same.
It's back to business for her. How is taking care of your business going?
I never said you would not make the holiday special for your children. What I said was it seems you are channeling so much energy into this gamble and reaching a turning point with your W that many of the small but beautiful joys of the holiday season are passing you right by.
Here you are trying to show your W that you are trying to be united with her on the holidays and her next text is about the title of a van. You and your W are at *very* different places right now. Maybe it will always be that way and maybe not. My point is you are seeking a turning point that may benefit the future and you are sort of forgetting about the present. And I don't mean that the holiday won't be nice for your children... I mean you are forgetting about YOUR present.
Did you begin the process to settle your accounts so you are both 110% on your own financially?
Not yet. It is on my mind.
She had no problem asking you to release ownership so she can do what she wants, now you do the same.
It's back to business for her. How is taking care of your business going?
It is still on the wayside.
I never said you would not make the holiday special for your children. What I said was it seems you are channeling so much energy into this gamble and reaching a turning point with your W that many of the small but beautiful joys of the holiday season are passing you right by.
Here you are trying to show your W that you are trying to be united with her on the holidays and her next text is about the title of a van. You and your W are at *very* different places right now. Maybe it will always be that way and maybe not. My point is you are seeking a turning point that may benefit the future and you are sort of forgetting about the present. And I don't mean that the holiday won't be nice for your children... I mean you are forgetting about YOUR present.
I know that Christmas is about the birth and spirit of Jesus. Rememberence and celebration of Jesus. Loving and taking in the special time of year for all it is worth and giving of yourself to help others. It is about family and friends coming together and making special memories together.
Yes, she is in a different mindset than me. Nothing changed there. Something I noticed which I think I have noticed before is when her hair is down and done up, she has a completely different and almost cold attitude about things. But when her hair is pulled back and up and she looks casual, she is all of a sudden nice, warm, and friendly. I have noticed this many times in the past. It is none the less always interesting to see again. It is like Jeckle and Hyde.
But anyways, yes, I am more focused on gambling for a turning point than I am my own joy of the Christmas season this year. You are right in that. I am working hard to make it good for my kids and everyone else pretty much forgetting about myself other than trying to plant a seed that can regrow again down the road.
Kevin
Ok - well, I am not really sure how else to progress this conversation forward so I will simply wish you a happy holiday.
To be blunt, my great concern is that you are so focused on planting a seed for regrowth with your W that you are NOT planting any seeds to regrow Kevin. IMO that has been the crux of the issue from the very start.
You openly said you are forgetting about yourself. I think that is a terrible injustice you are committing on Kevin.
Anyhow, I am off to the dentist.
Thanks CG,
You have been helpful. In all honesty, I am not forgetting about me because the effort I am putting forth if it pays off will be far more rewarding in the long run than what I could do for myself in the short run.
There isn't much left for me to do for myself this week. I have to get the place perfect, wrap gifts, keep eating healthy and working out and make sure I am dressed for success with the best attitude possible come Christmas morning. My joy will however be in seeing my girls have a great Christmas. To me that will be the most important thing.
I want to extend the invitation to W to let her know she is welcomed to join me and the girls for our Christmas Eve dinner. But I know better than to attempt that. And I know the rejection would hurt. So why ruin my mood on the eve of Christmas when I can enjoy it with my girls and take it in for all it is worth.
Kevin
Merry Christmas to you to CG and everyone else on the boards.
Kevin
"if it pays off ..."
You continue to miss the whole point everyone here is trying to get you to see. Motivation.
So with that, I wish you a Merry Christmas Kevin.
"if it pays off ..."
You continue to miss the whole point everyone here is trying to get you to see. Motivation.
So with that, I wish you a Merry Christmas Kevin.
I couldn't be more motivated than I am right now. Merry Christmas to you as well Drew.
Kevin
I know. I have to keep myself in check on that one.
Thanks SO2,
Kevin
Don't get me wrong. I am going to try and enjoy Christmas as well regardless of the outcome. I know what yall are saying. I am not missing yall's point. I am just also taking a gamble and praying for a turning point as part of it. I will enjoy Christmas none the less though.
Kevin
I just need to step back, do the best I can, don't go overboard, and enjoy Christmas with my kids this week, and make it special for them. Let the rest fall into place where ever it falls.
Yall are right. I was starting to go overboard in my mind with everything and I am going to blow it if I don't just slow down and take a step back.
Kevin
[quote=CityGirl]
So often (in most cases I think and certainly in my own experience) the WAS wants the perks of marriage and family when it is obligatory (holiday, b-day or they need help/support) but when they don't want it, they just blow you off. It is of my opinion (and yes, we all have opinions) that so many LBS's block their own healing and forward movement when they allow the WAS to have the perks of marriage and family when they choose. Your W has opted out of the perks of a marriage and in tact family on a full time basis so when she is included she should be treated with the same courtesy you would treat any other random guests but not doted on or coddled as a spouse.
I've got to disagree with this, especially the last part, but I'm open to discussion about where you're coming from CG. There's a lot of consternation about "cake-eating" here on the boards, but I don't recall anything in MWD's books or articles that has this perspective. In fact, it seems to be the opposite:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htmDealing with a WAS is like dealing with a schizophrenic person. Sometimes they want to act like a spouse, sometimes not. Birthdays, holidays, weddings, these definitely cause them to start missing us, which I don't think is a bad thing.
And statements like "clean your house, Kev, for YOU", I understand what you're trying to say, but as a guy I could give a crap if my house is perfect, and neither could my friends. It's only when a woman is involved that we start to care. Part of the whole problem? Maybe, but just reality.
I really think this is progress for Kev's wife. She hasn't filed for D, and they'll be together at Christmas. Do all the things you're planning Kev, she WILL notice, and even if she doesn't stay with you, they'll help with another woman down the line. That, to me, is the essence of DBing.
I really think this is progress for Kev's wife. She hasn't filed for D, and they'll be together at Christmas. Do all the things you're planning Kev, she WILL notice, and even if she doesn't stay with you, they'll help with another woman down the line. That, to me, is the essence of DBing.
Thanks Jon,
In a lot of ways it is progress compared to where we have been the past 15 months. In some ways, ya, she is still moving forward, but the tones of things are changing to an extent. It is a long slow process. Patience and faith are the biggest factors.
Kevin
The "contrast with positive images of what could be, with what she has..." please remember that. And how different you are now, so that M to you now would be different and better of course. So, NO neediness and no clinging and no over excitement = expectations from K4...nope.
K4 is Just an upbeat father who LOVES his kids and Christmas AND is FUN to be around (but not a teenager) and happy and HAS A life and friends and interests and is a good catch...Okay? Nothing to notice or comment about or seethe about, with how SHE seems or acts or what she says or does or whatever. You do NOT notice that on the day.B/C You're too busy having a blast! It's the NEW K4!
And you are right to step back & BREATHE...relax...relax so everyone around you can do the same. If you can't relax, you won't have or be fun. So do it Kevin....relax. Take deep breaths (without showing them) and enjoy this holiday. That's the goal. Not reconciling or having a miracle or planting a seed...nope. Having a relaxed holiday without a scene, is the goal. What springs from that is not for us to know yet. But keep your expectations and hopes at a healthy productive level.It's the only way this works. Good luck!
Gotta go,
j-
Thanks 25. I will and I appreciate it.
Kevin
Maybe I just hang around different kinds of men that have pride in their surroundings and *do* give a crap if it's a mess. I am not really sure why it's even worth mentioning. Not *all* men are the same.
I was simply pointing out that nobody's idea of perfection is exactly the same. If Kevin is pleased with how his house looks then he need not worry if others view it as perfect. Striving to meet another individuals idea of perfection adds a ton of pressure and right now Kevin does not need pressure as he seems to crumble when the pressure mounts.
The key to DB'ing is to do what works and stop what does not work. And thus far Kevin has hoped and tried to turn things around and so far that has not happened and there is little indication it will. So, still being the same Kevin has not caused his W to take pause. I am simply stating my opinion of course. While I understand what he is trying to do I simply disagree with it as I don't feel he is able to manage his expectations, excitement when his W throws him a tiny bone or be able to avoid the feelings of total devastation when things don't pan out as he hopes.
I don't know your situation, Jon but what I do know... FOR ME is that I will never advise anybody to go out of their way for a WAS who is still sleeping with other people. Hence the reason I said treat the WAS with kindness and civility but nothing more than you would treat any other human being you have contact with. Especially when a year, year and a half or two years pass.
I came back to this thread because Kevin asked me to. Anybody is welcome to cherry pick the ideas, advice or opinions that are stated and pluck out what they think might be useful.
CG,
First, let me again thank you for coming back.
I know what you are saying about how you would treat people sleeping around such as your H. And I understand why you are saying it and I totally understand your feelings about why you are saying it and have come to that conclusion. I also see the results it generates with your H regretting many times his still current decisions. What you have been doing has definitely had an affect there.
I also understand what you are saying about me crumbling when W throws me a crumb or being devastated when things have gone the complete opposite of what I have prayed and hoped for. But I have been working to try and change that. And in a lot of ways I have succeeded. I am a different person in front of W now than I used to be which you can see from my first few posts on this board. Ok, emotionally, I am still weak at times inside. But I don't reflect it outside at all like I used to. I have a firm control over that in front of my W. And patience, my gosh I have to have patience to have made it this long and still keep trying to give it every chance for W to reconsider. Truth be told, There is a decent chance I have the escape clause as far as a true valid annulment goes if I wanted to pursue it without it weighing on my concious from talking to my priest.
But that isn't my goal. That isn't what my kids want. And I am trying to stick this out every possible way until there is no way left to stick it out. My goal was to be married for life. And yes, while I made enough mistakes to warrant her at least wanting to be separated until my crap was in gear, I still have every intention of giving it my best shot to redeem this whole M. I would love for nothing more than to be able to look back and say I did it, and we did it and others can do it to.
So I have to take my opportunities that be very few and far between and try to make the best out of each one hoping each one leads to putting one small lego on the next.
Believe me, I have thought over everything you have told me and I fully intend to utilize some of it. Maybe not all of it. But definitely some of it. I think that is kind of the whole thing with these boards. You take some of the best advice that best applies to you and your goals and utilize it and make the best of it. You can't take all the advice on here or you would be spinning your head forever. But you and 25, and Jon and Wifey, and Coach and the list goes on offer so much good advice, and I am trying to put into play the parts that hopefully fit me and my sitch best.
So based off what you said, I probably will not go to all lenths to make the place as perfect as my W would like hers to be. It will look good, that is good enough. I actually needed to hear that from you. That was good advice.
As far as how to treat her, again, good advice. But I will engage her in some conversation as what would be the point of having her over and not? I just will make sure I don't overdue it and mainly focus on the kids and everyone and having a good time.
So I appreciate what you and everyone else is saying and it is great advice that I will be applying bits and pieces from everyone.
Kevin
I do care about what my place looks like. I don't want it a mess. I just don't know that it needs to be 100% perfect of what W's standards would be. Thats all.
Leaving work now. D12 is sick.
Take care,
Kevin
But my DB coach told me something I'll never forget, --"Contrast the negative images he's created to justify his choice, with positive images that undermine the negative. Contrast the warmth and love he can find at home, with whatever he's finding out there in the cold tundra..." and see what happens" and since it was only a few days, I was able to pull it off. We had a great Christmas...and another turning point I think. And more positive memories for the kids.
That's amazing! I love hearing this kind of advice and the effect it had. Thanks 25, your post back on page 9 about not wanting to grow up applies to me completely.
My .02 is this: buy her a gift. I don't see why it would be a question, especially after she got you one. She's your wife, you love her, this is an easy way to show it. Heck, I just sent my W flowers AFTER being told she was filing, and it worked. I'm remembering the fun part of romance and why we get into these crazy relationship things in the first place.
I know we're all hurting on here, and have gone through things a spouse should never be subjected to, but be careful bashing the WAS or projecting your own anger and sitch. I like Kev's idea of a gamble. Maybe it'll work.
My .02 is this: buy her a gift. I don't see why it would be a question, especially after she got you one. She's your wife, you love her, this is an easy way to show it.
Ya. Just not sure what to get her. I will have tomorrow night to decide. Tonight went well. I got home, made dinner for us. We all ate together. Then we cleaned the place up in anticipation for Christmas day. I also excercised. I started our bible devos back with the girls which I had gotten away from for a while. Really no excuse. Something I said earlier in wanting to say I did it or we did it in terms of M reconciliaton. I should have said God did it once completed because in all honesty it will have been because of him. Anyways, posting my resume out there now. Got to get an early start for when the budgets open back up.
Kevin
If you get her something make it small and rather inpersonal. No jewelry etc. Something you would give a friend.
So no new wedding ring right? Kidding. I know. I already got her a rotating silver picture frame and a santa coffee mug. Not sure what to add to that if anything.
Kevin
If you're going to buy her a gift. Make it about the girls. Like a digital pic frame with a bunch of pics of the girls. Show her you still care, but that it's not all about you and what lose you're feeling. Your image is: You feel great and Life is beautiful.
PMA
So no new wedding ring right? Kidding. I know. I already got her a rotating silver picture frame and a santa coffee mug. Not sure what to add to that if anything.
Kevin
Yeah...No new wedding rings! LOL I do like those gifts you have. That is plenty.
If you're going to buy her a gift. Make it about the girls. Like a digital pic frame with a bunch of pics of the girls. Show her you still care, but that it's not all about you and what lose you're feeling. Your image is: You feel great and Life is beautiful.
PMA
I really like that idea. We got one of those for my mom one year and we keep adding pics to it. Then its sorta from your girls as well.
If you're going to buy her a gift. Make it about the girls. Like a digital pic frame with a bunch of pics of the girls.
I am running short on time as well as pictures to be able to put this one together by Friday. But it is a truly great idea. Maybe something to do for Valentines day? Maybe not that day.
Kevin
I think the frame/mug is an appropriate gift... useful but not too personal, thoughtful without going overboard.
The only reason I suggested that perhaps you should evaluate the notion of giving her a gift is you stated in a previous post that you had to give her something "in return" because she purchased you a gift. To me gift giving is because you WANT to give a gift, not to get something in return or due to a sense of obligation. IMO a plate of home baked cookies or fudge that you and the girls made would be a lovely gift.
IMO a plate of home baked cookies or fudge that you and the girls made would be a lovely gift.
Just ask my neighbors they love my baking, this time of the year!
W just invited me to eat dinner with her and the kids tonight and take them to see Santa together. Its her night with them. I'm stunned.
Kevin
The only reason I suggested that perhaps you should evaluate the notion of giving her a gift is you stated in a previous post that you had to give her something "in return" because she purchased you a gift. To me gift giving is because you WANT to give a gift, not to get something in return or due to a sense of obligation. IMO a plate of home baked cookies or fudge that you and the girls made would be a lovely gift.
I did want to give a gift. But I didn't know how it would be taken if I did. So I was being cautious. I am making fudge as I do that every year. Kind of a tradition of mine.
Kevin
So it looks like I am going to go home, get the girls, take them to the restaurant and W will meet us there. Apparently kids eat free there tonight. Then after we will get D7 dressed in something W wants to see her in and go visit Santa together. We are working out the finishing gifts for the kids. I was going to shop, so I will do that after Santa tonight and then try and get some gift wrapping in after. W offered me some cookie doe to make for Santa to eat late Thursday night after the kids have gone to bed. It will be really late since we are attending Midnight mass at 11pm. I just need to clear up with W what time she wants to come over Christmas morning.
Kevin
Things are looking up. After posting my resume last night, I got a call just now from an agency that wants me to come in Monday morning and talk to them about jobs. They said they only deal in jobs that would be a 40% increase or more in pay for me. They saw my resume and liked what they saw so they want to screen me and start putting it out there.
Praise God. Good things are abound. Just patience and faith.
Kevin
Things are looking up. After posting my resume last night, I got a call just now from an agency that wants me to come in Monday morning and talk to them about jobs. They said they only deal in jobs that would be a 40% increase or more in pay for me. They saw my resume and liked what they saw so they want to screen me and start putting it out there.
Praise God. Good things are abound. Just patience and faith.
Kevin
Great! A positive to look forward to!
Kevin, God is listening! I'm really happy for you. Keep me up to date on how it goes. I got your message and responded on my thread.
Good to hear. Pace yourself. You're on a rollercoaster remember? There will be highs and lows. Take everything with stride. Dont read into anything. IMO she is trying to feel less guilty around the holidays. Just do it ALL for the girls.
NO EXPECTATIONS!!!
Be like Shaft! one baddd mothaaa.
Kevin, God is listening! I'm really happy for you. Keep me up to date on how it goes. I got your message and responded on my thread.
I responded to your thread Goodfight. I still keep up with you.
Kevin
Good to hear. Pace yourself. You're on a rollercoaster remember? There will be highs and lows. Take everything with stride. Dont read into anything. IMO she is trying to feel less guilty around the holidays. Just do it ALL for the girls.
I am PMA. I was stunned to get the invite. But I am going to make it good for the girls. I am going to pace myself and yes, it is and has definitely been a rollercoaster. I remember. I am just remembering to be patient and take it as it comes.
NO EXPECTATIONS!!!
Be like Shaft! one baddd mothaaa.
I will. Thanks PMA,
Kevin
Ok, well, here is how my night went with W. It is a long one.
I left work and went home and shaved and dressed styling. I took the girls with me to the restaurant and W had just gotten there. We ate dinner together and W talked about her job prospects and I mentioned my appointment Monday morning. She again asked me about whether or not I made a decision to move or stay. This has to be the 4th or 5th time she has asked. I told her I decided I will resign. She asked for how long. I said 7 months since that is the minimum and then I will look for a place a little more north this summer. She said she also wants to move more north this summer. We both like the Plano TX area so that seems to be the target for both of us. Right then and there I knew this was not a dinner about any feelings towards me. But I also kept it in my mind that the chances were it was not anyways.
During our time together W asked if me and the girls were going to go to midnight mass Christmas Eve. I said yes and told her she is welcomed to join if she wants. Then D7 popped in and asked her to come also. W said she might. W said she also has 2 other services to attend as well so she will see. W also asked me if we were taking the girls to see the new Alvin and the Chipmunks movie Christmas night. I said yes. Stunned in my mind because til this point she had not made any mention of me being invited and when she had spoke earlier more than once it was she was taking the girls to the movie Christmas night. So I guess we are both taking them now.
So during dinner W tells me about her New Years Eve plans and so forth and her friends both guys and women, etc. Blah blah blah.
So we leave the restaurant and head back to my apartment because W wants to pick out something for D7 to wear to Santa. The one outfit I suggested I had she wasn't sure about and wanted to see what else was available. So we came back to my place and she saw the Christmas tree which I had already told her the girls pretty much did it all and I was proud of their efforts even though it is definitely not a display model tree. She laughed and looked at it and thought it was great that they had done it as well.
Then she started going through D7's clothes and found what she wanted her to wear. So we got D7 dressed and hair brushed and pulled back and were going to head off to see Santa. W asked if I wanted to ride with them. I said I will take my own car since I had planned on doing some shopping after the Santa experience was done. She asked if we could drop my car off at Walmart and then drive together to the mall since the mall parking lot was going to be packed. I said ok. So we did that and I rode with them to the mall. And the parking lot was definitely packed so it was actually a good move.
We got inside and found the line for Santa and we waited for 3 hours before we were able to finally see him. Just incase there are questions, D12 had no interest in seeing Santa or talking to him or taking pictures with him. So this was a D7 event.
Ok, so 3 hours in line together. I played with D7 and joked around with D12. I also joked with W and even some people standing next to us. But you can imagine how hard it is to keep looking awesome standing in line for 3 hours. Eventually you run out of things to say and do and your legs get tired and you just kind of grow quiet after a while. But I kept positive the entire time. A couple of times I went to get us drinks since we were all getting thirsty.
So we get to Santa and D7 goes in there and does some adorable pictures with Santa that we just loved. We both agree on the ones we want and go in half and half on them. About 11pm we finally start walking out with our pictures and talking about our kids together. W tells me next year we should both take off for a day and do it together in the morning. I agree.
Earlier in the evening on the drive to the mall W tells me how much she spent on her brothers Christmas present who is over seas. Significantly more than on me. I also know she bought for every one else which is probably why she was short on money for bills this month. So she basically went cheap and simple on mine as simply just a little gift for a friend. So I am not overly concerned about how little I am going in on hers now.
So driving back we are all tired and D7 says to us this is the first time in a long time we have all been able to be a family and mom and dad didn't fight. W says that is true that W and I are getting along better now. I agreed. W tells me thank you for coming along. I said thank you for the invite. She says that she thought it was only fair to ask me to join and that if I had taken them to see Santa she would have wanted to be invited for that.
We discuss a bit more about Christmas presents for the girls and finishing that off as well as stocking stuffers for each other and if either of us had any requests on that.
We agreed that W would come over Christmas morning at 8:30 and we would make breakfast and do presents with the girls. Then at 11am we will head over to her mothers house with everyone else. It is going to be an awkward day with everyone over there, but I will make the best of it.
I did look good tonight and W even commented that she liked the shirt I was wearing and suggested to go with XL instead of XXl large in the big and tall now since I had lost so much weight. I agreed and said that is what I am doing as I am updating my wardrobe again.
W looked very casual tonight, hair pulled back and was just friendly all night which is usually the case when her hair is pulled back and she is dressed casual.
At one point she asked me if I could switch nights with her next week from Tuesday to Wednesday. I said sure. Then she said she had a guy who is a friend coming into town and she wanted to do dinner with him with her sister in law and her other lady friend. I really didn't need the details of why she wanted to switch. I don't know why she felt the need to tell me that. Then she told me a bit more about him such as he is a school teacher, blah blah blah.
Yes, I know. At certain points tonight I should have enforeced some boundaries on conversations regarding her New Years Eve plans and this guy coming to town to visit. According to her he is going to be in town visiting multiple people and she wanted to see him to. I also know that she is still friends with the 55 year old guy as he is one of the ones that will be in her group together New Years Eve. Apparently he made her smoked salmon and brought some in for her this week. I keep wondering where this guys W is in all of this. But I don't ask.
So what did I learn tonight? It was a coparent evening with what my W considered to be fairness when the girls are involved. It might be moving to the dreaded friendship realm. I guess a rebuilding of any kind has to start somewhere.
We did have bonding moments over our kids tonight and brought up stories together of our kids and how proud of them we are and laughed together about funny things they have done.
After we stopped off at sonic to get some food and drinks, W asked if I could run into walmart to get some medicine for D12. She handed me some cash and I went in there and got it. I decided not to go shopping as it was close to midnight after this and decided I would do it tomorrow after work. W suggested I run to the store on the way home and then pick up the girls and head to my place after so I don't have to pick them up, then drop them off, then go shopping and come back. I said that works.
D7 also has her heart set on a nintendo DSI and she even told Santa this. She has been asking and hoping for one for Christmas for a while. We had decided we would each half it and get it for her birthday. But she is really hoping for it so me and W are going to discuss tomorrow and we may just get it and used some of what we bought for Christmas as her birthday presents since it is only 3 weeks away anyways.
If anything was gained tonight it is that we started seeing that we could get along again without fighting and are able to start enjoying each other again. Outside that it is hard to say much else was accomplished as far as what I am striving for. One lego at a time as KJ would say. At moments I was a bit sad inside as I do long for things to come back together. But I know I must continue to be patient and trust in God and keep trying to improve myself. I did not show W though. I was pretty upbeat and positive most of the night except when I finally got a bit quiet just from being tired after a while.
Kevin
Just a quick note. I am thankful to God for the opportunity I was given tonight regardless of the intentions. It was another chance to show I can be a great guy if given a chance.
Kevin
you did fine. You'd be blowing it be whining now since she isn't ready to run into your arms again. She needs lots of this relaxed low expectation stuff from you, OVER TIME...and you need to let her.
Change in behavior + time = POSSIBLE reconciliation...
Even if you were moving towards recon, it would start with siimple bonding times that have no fights...so I'd say you got a step done!...but if you had expected more and shown your disappointment, or read too much into everything, you'd have fallen 2 steps back. So pat yourself on the back. A little at a time is all you can hope for that is realistic. None of my h's changes were dramatic at once, they built up. When they reach a critical mass, you'll know.
Good luck, keep expectations low but be upbeat b/c of what a great guy you are....remember those "contrast your positiives warmth/offerings, with her negative/needy" images and you'll be okay. Your w's behavior or her plans do NOT matter NOW. The kids do. No K4, she's not ready to get back together. But you knew that already. She MAY be ready to hang out some though...if you keep up the positives, she may well be. So do that. And take ONE step at a time...it is a long road. So is marriage.
Merry Christmas,
j-
So what did I learn tonight? It was a coparent evening with what my W considered to be fairness when the girls are involved.
and it was just that. Co-parenting. Don't read anymore into it. Christmas is a fairy tale for children. And the two of you have allowed them the fantasy of a family together for the holidays (somewhat). It is a good stepping stone for when reality hits a few weeks/months down the road. As, Elliot said, "April is the cruellest month."
And as for my comment about standing up to 25, there was no disrespect towards her, you, sir, need practice standing up for yourself. These virtual 2x4's you are virtually beaten with, You need to starting saying; "Look, I am a man. I make my own decisions, I know I am right for myself." Confidence, decisiveness, self-respect. Go back and read your million posts and what you have told us about your wife.
Stop being walked all over. Stand up for yourself.
When the holidays are over and things are back to the way they were/are/gonna be it will be the most important thing going for you.
You did great! You showed your girls that mom and dad can still get along and be in the same room together. I know it may not have been this huge waking moment for W, but you can bet she is watching.
sounds like things are going hunky dorry but for your pigskin allegiances. dummy.
merry christmas! make it a peaceful, safe & blessed one. confidence bro'.
Kara, 25, Drew, SO2, and Tomato,
Thank you. I am learning some great lessons in this and trying to improve as I learn these lessons.
SM,
I realize anything is a possibility once the holidays are over. I haven't kidded myself about that at all. I appreciate the words of advice and they are dually noted.
Sorry all, I am not up for much responding today. I am pretty tired as I didn't go to sleep until 2am and then got back up and headed to work this morning. I still have 2 more busy nights ahead of me as I am sure all the rest of you do to.
But thank you each for taking the time to read about my night and add input. I appreciate the help, encouragement, pat on the back, kind words and analysis.
Kevin
And as for my comment about standing up to 25, there was no disrespect towards her, you, sir, need practice standing up for yourself. These virtual 2x4's you are virtually beaten with, You need to starting saying; "Look, I am a man. I make my own decisions, I know I am right for myself." Confidence, decisiveness, self-respect. Go back and read your million posts and what you have told us about your wife.
Bingo... You are letting some of these women treat you like your wife does.. Think about it... They are only doing this because you allow it and keep apologizing. Stand up to them. It will be good practice for how to deal with your wife. You actually haven't been wrong on a number of issues that you have allowed others to convince you of being wrong on. You are just fine. Don't let them talk you into believing anything differently. YOUR reality is what matters. Don't let others opinions get turned into "facts" just because they say.
Exactly, even though I'm not a woman. You don't have to agree with me on what color socks to wear.
No K4, she's not ready to get back together. But you knew that already. She MAY be ready to hang out some though...if you keep up the positives, she may well be. So do that. And take ONE step at a time...it is a long road. So is marriage.
Nope, she is not ready to reconcile yet, and I did know that and was fully prepared for that. Like you said, I am just taking it one step at a time and staying patient while trying to keep up the positives.
Kevin
Bingo... You are letting some of these women treat you like your wife does.. Think about it... They are only doing this because you allow it and keep apologizing. Stand up to them. It will be good practice for how to deal with your wife. You actually haven't been wrong on a number of issues that you have allowed others to convince you of being wrong on. You are just fine. Don't let them talk you into believing anything differently. YOUR reality is what matters. Don't let others opinions get turned into "facts" just because they say.
I'm not sure this is the place to practice standing up especially when I am seeking advice to apply for my sitch and I am graciously being given it here. I also don't think standing up here would benefit me in people trying to offer advice and help. And I don't think anyone here needs to be stood up to as everyone is trying to help me. The best thing I can do here is listen and apply what is being offered for my sitch. On top of that, I just don't really see anything to stand up to on here anyways. Standing up to people on here is going to cause me to lose advice that might have helped me. Have to keep an open mind on these boards and take in all the great advice given so I can better help my sitch.
I don't really think I am being pushed around. I listen and choose from what everyone advises me and and apply what seems to work best for my sitch from the help offered here.
For instance, yesterday W asked me if I had plans last night. Instead of answering her yes or no, I texted back saying "whats up?". Based on what was going on, I would decide whether or not I wanted to adjust what I already had going on. That was a decision I made. When she explained what was up, I decided that was worth doing.
I do think some of the things I have decided in the past were valid, but I certainly wasn't right on all of it, or even perhaps a lot of it. I also know that I don't know everything and there is a lot of knowledge and experiences from people that can greatly benefit me on here. I don't think it is weak to admit that someone else's advice is better than my own. I find that smart to see that and apply the better peice of advice from someone else than something stupid I may have done in place of it.
I know not everyone agrees on here with everyone as we all have similar but different circumstances. Some of us have different goals for where we are right now. Thats ok. Some of us have goals that have fluctuated at times and even back and forth. That is ok. This is a hard situation for most people to be in. Ultimately everyone wants to come out of it in a better situation than they went into it with in whatever form that may be.
But Gucci, I don't disagree with you or SM or CG or others that have said I need to make decisions and stands on my own. I do, but I pick and choose those times. And sometimes I miss the opportunities to apply it best. It is still a learning process. But I think I am learning as I continue on.
Kevin
Exactly, even though I'm not a woman. You don't have to agree with me on what color socks to wear.
You need not worry here. I had already made my decision on socks from learning something about fashion trends here lately. lol.
Kevin
W told me her mom wanted to know if they could just take the girls with them to their annual Christmas family dinner tonight since I am going to hit the store for a bit to finish up last minute stuff after work before I pick up the girls. W said dinner would start for them at 7 and they would be gone for a couple of hours. All the family would be there. No I was not invited with the girls. So basically I wouldn't get to spend any time with the girls tonight.
I said no. I won't be shopping that long as I am only hitting walmart right after work and then picking up the girls and I told W me and the girls have plans tonight. W said she agreed and figured the same thing. W also said she didn't think the girls liked that greek restaurant we go to every year anyways.
My feeling is we will all be spending Christmas day together and her mother can see the girls then. I have already given the girls up enough this month for her mother which is primarily the reason I was finally invited to join the family for Christmas. But not tonight. Tonight is my night with the girls.
It looks like we are going to go ahead and get D7 that Nintendo DSI and split the cost and hold back some of her presents for her birthday in 3 weeks. D7 will be ecstatic.
Kevin
Interestingly enough,
W also once again last night reiterated how tired she is growing of her mom being in her life and is looking forward to moving further away from her this summer. I said nothing to that. I will do my own thing while that situation plays out on its own.
But in reality, the further those 2 grow apart, the easier it will be for me and W to reconcile at some point in the future as MIL was a major obstacle for me. The best thing I can do is stay completely out of it and just focus on me and my girls and my life and see what comes about which is what I am doing.
Kevin
Well, her mom will never completely go away LOL but I know how outside influences don't make it better.
Hope you have a wonderful Christmas and you have some peace for the next few days.
Merry Christmas, Kevin.
Enjoy the weekend and all the best on Monday (job meeting).
AND... NO WHITE SOCKS!
Thanks SO2 and CG,
I wish yall a very Merry Christmas as well.
Kevin
Last night D12 told me that W is taking them bowling with her "friend" coming up from out of town this weekend. W had told me that she was going to go bowling with him but conveniently failed to mention she was taking the girls to. Apparently she has been talking to them about him and he helped D12 with a homework assignment. He is a teacher down in south texas Corpus Christi area. I fumed inside as I know she spends a lot of time talking to him on the phone each day. This doesn't appear to be just some friend.
I made a mistake when talking to D12 last night and blurted out that W has no business introducing our girls to other men in her life. I shouldn't have said it. I should have controlled myself. I was pissed that she is trying to involve our girls in her affairs now. What kind of example is that. Their married mother doing this in front of them and trying to involve them. My feeling is that if she wants to continue with her affairs, that is her business and there is nothing I can do about that. But to be pulling our girls into it, that is pure and total crap. So yes, I get to sit and think on that this weekend.
Do I set my boundary on this one? It may have already been set by me stupidly blurting that out last night after D12 told me about it. I am sure it will get back to W. Nothing I can do about it now.
At the same time, why would I endorse something like this? Why would I show any sign of approval on that behavior? This is more than likely going to push us closer to D which is not what I want. It just seems like there is no winning in this. If I say anything to W, she will immediately become defensive and defiant about it. If I don't say anything, she drags my girls into her personal affairs with her. They don't need other men coming in and out of their life especially knowing their mom is married.
<sigh>
Kevin
Do I set my boundary on this one?
You Can't. Don't Try.
I know. I just feel very frusturated. I have to just put it out of my mind and enjoy Christmas eve and Christmas day with my girls. This guy and W have a lot of nerve. I will give them that.
Kevin
Kevin, this is a pisser of a situation. But you can't do anything about it. Not being able to do anything about it doesn't mean that you approve of it. She doesn't care what you think about it man! I'm on your side. But this isn't a battle that you can win...it isn't even a boundry that you can enforce. You can let her know how you feel about it...but that's just for you. If you do let her know how you feel about it, she's just gonna say some crap to you that'll hurt you more. Keep being the best Kevin that you can, and love your girls...that's all you can do...and it is the ONLY thing that you have any control over at all regarding your situation. Again, I'm on your side.
. They don't need other men coming in and out of their life especially knowing their mom is married.
<sigh>
Kevin
You're not trying to set a boundary. You are trying to control the situation.
Your Girls see you as divorced already. At that age once you were separated you were divorced. Think about why your daughter came to you. Ask her if you have to. My guess is she is scared and is looking for strength from you. Focus on that. Be the strong man she needs to see as a role model. Start by apologizing for talking about her mother in a negative way. Be honest we her so she can trust you and realize that not all men are going to come and go out of her life.
Kevin, this is a crappy thing your wife is doing. You can't control it but you can still make a positive impact on your little girls.
Have a safe and merry Christmas.
No its soooo not right, but like everyone said you can't do much about it. If the guy is sleeping in her bed with the girls there I would definately speak up, but if she acts like they are friends in front of them you can't say much. But even if they are more and having wild sex (ewwww) with the girls home legally the courts don't care. Its so sad, but true!
Focus on the things you can control.
You. The joy YOU can bring to your children. Your meeting on Monday. All things for YOU and the children. Right now that is what needs to matter most to you.
No more <sighing>. Make it all about you.
I plan on sitting down D12 to talk to her about last night and fix that. She was actually talking about it excitedly. I know W has been building this guy up to them.
C-Bart,
My girls know the difference between S and D. They know we are not D'd and they know that W being involved with anyone is not appropriate. But as far as they know, this is just a "good friend". I see what my W is trying to do. She is trying to work him in from the friendship level first. This is thought out on her part and being put into action.
It doesn't look like W will be coming to midnight mass with us tonight as she said she doesn't think she will have time to make it. I let D7 know since D7 had really wanted her to come. Apparently W is going to some other service with a lady friend of hers and her lady friends younger sister.
Per her idea, we were supposed to talk last night and sync up on presents for the kids and she never called.
Last night her and her family went out to do their annual family Christmas dinner and her mom tried to invite the girls to which I said no. I have given them up enough this month. As I stated, the invite was not extended to me. Yet I am somehow supposed to believe there is a change of heart from W's mom which is why I am being invited tomorrow for Christmas. I truly don't buy it. Tomorrow is nothing more than her way of getting the girls over there. W said everyone drew names and is getting one gift for whoever that name is you drew. I got W's sister. I got her a gift. I asked Mel, are we expected to bring a gift for everyone. Mel said no and said that was the whole point of drawing names. But W is already buying gifts for everyone and I know that they have been also. So this is going to be me showing up with the one gift for SIL and of course gifts for the kids and me looking like a complete fool through this. I actually wasted time making 2 batches of fudge last night to take over there.
I so don't even want to go over there. I'd rather just do our Christmas morning and send W and the girls on their way to W's mom's house with SIL's present. Let them have their own Christmas and I will just go do something else.
I truly hate Christmas. It has no meaning for me personally anymore. I could do without the day and "celebrations". I could do without the whole season.
I actually thought about ending all contact with W and filing for D this morning and having her served today. That is how angry I was with the latest developments. I am so tired of this. Wouldn't that be something. A processor shows up at her door on Christmas Eve with D papers. Merry Christmas. Hope you like your gift.
That really is not the Christmas spirit though is it. The Christmas spirit is love and joy and rememberence of Christ.
W just IM'd me and asked if I was working a full day today. I didn't bother to respond. I don't feel like talking to her.
I will be working on changing my thoughts to focusing on my blessings and kids today and tomorrow and being grateful for those as well as getting ready for my Monday morning meeting.
Well, to each and all, thank you for the support and help and may each of you have a very blessed and better Merry Christmas.
Kevin
No snow yet, but the news says it is coming. That would be awesome to have a white Christmas.
Kevin
Merry Christmas Kevin.
Cheers
Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I really need to live by that quote Coach.
Merry Christmas to you as well and may it be blessed.
Kevin
It's snowing now. Awesome.
Kevin
W called and confirmed she will not be joining us for Christmas mass. She asked me to let her know when we were home from Mass tonight and the kids are in bed so she can bring over her presents to put under the tree for the morning.
I said will do.
Kevin
Snowing in Dallas? Global warming...yeah right.
Merry Christmas Kevin.
Yup. Snowing here. I never bought global warming either. It is officially a white christmas. And our bosses are letting us go for the day and paying for it. Totally awesome.
Merry Christmas KerryK,
Kevin
Hey Kev.
Hope you had a good day today. We had a darn blizzard up here yesterday and got 14 inches of snow in central Oklahoma!
I hope 2010 is a much better year for YOU! If you had as much to give yourself (and you DO) as you're willing to give her, despite the way she has treated you for as long as she has, you would be one stout dude! All you gotta do is realize it, and accept it (you deserve it), and DO it! You've got the raw materials man! Just put em' to use and you'll be a strong man! Merry Christmas Kevin.
Anxious to hear how your holiday went!
Will post a full update later. Obviously no reconciliation took place or even looks like it will anytime soon. MIL and me are back on good terms again. Posting from my phone right now. Got 2 hugs from wife. Then w told me I was invited so I wouldnt be alone and cause kids wanted me there. As I started to misread the second hug, w corrected any misreadings I was starting to have by thanking me for.coming and then letting me know why I was invited. Full update later. At Alvin and chipmunks movie with w and kids right now.
Kevin
(((ALVIN)))
I just had to say that..
Christmas eve I got out of work early and went home to my girls. I went to the store to get a few odds and ins. I finished wrapping presents. I ended up getting my W one extra gift, just a $20 candle fountain that I thought would be a nice decorative peice for her home.
I took my girls to midnight mass. W did not go. She wanted to sync up with me after mass when the girls were in bed asleep so she could bring her gifts over and put them in the tree. So a little after 2am the girls are finally asleep. W comes over with the gifts. It is freezing outside and this is about 2:45 am. I help her bring them up and then she comes straight to me, burys her head in my chest and asks me to hug her and warmer her up. So I stand there for a few minutes holding her while she quits shaking and warms up with her face buried in my chest. This is happening inside my apartment.
We place hers and my presents under the tree, go through the stocking stuffers for the kids and ourselves and sit for a while by the tree and just chit chat about the kids and everything. She leaves at 3:40am. I spend the next 20 minutes sitting up thinking about things. I go to sleep at 4am. She had wanted to be over in the morning before the kids woke. I offered to let her sleep on the couch since it was so cold and the roads were icey and so she didn't have to make 2 trips so close together. She hadn't been home yet and needed to let our dog out so she didn't stay.
I get a text at 8:45am Christmas morning. I had about 4 and a half hours of sleep. She is on her way. She gets there, I quickly get up and start making breakfast. We wake both girls and then she helps finish making breakfast with me. We all eat breakfast together and then we get down by the tree and I start handing out presents. Our girls loved what they got for the most part. W said I didn't have to get her the couple gifts that I did. I said its Christmas and no big deal. They were nothing elaborate and not very much money. She got me a gift as well. A fudge brownie mix kit. Yup. I acted a appreciative as I didn't expect a single thing anyways. Personally, I think that was rather insulting. But oh well.
So we all get ready to go to MIL's house after. W drives over to W's house with the girls to finish getting ready. I get myself ready and am looking good. I picked up starbucks on the way there for both of us. W was grateful.
W ended up busting her lip somehow at her house when bending down to get something out of the cabinet so she was in a bit of pain when I arrived. She took some medicine.
We all head to MIL's house from W's house. I helped bring stuff in and everyone said hi to me and merry christmas. I did the same back. I tallked with step dad in law for a while before we all sat down to eat. Actually he talked to me. That man can talk more than anyone I have ever met in my life. He has always been like that, but I have always enjoyed him.
We had a good meal together. At one point during the meal MIL makes a comment to W about how she must have really deserved me busting her lip like that in a joking fashion. I was quiet. I didn't find it funny. But I just kind smiled and shrugged my shoulders up a bit. The rest of the meal went good.
After the meal we all opened more gifts. That was fun. They got me a few things also. Then step FIL talked to me some more and then I got down and played littlest petshop monopoly with D7 and my neice while the adults all huddled around the kitchen table chatting and having a good time. MIL commented on my new shoes and asked where I got them and said she really liked them. I told her where and said thank you. W took a nap for a while during all of this because she was exhausted. A little while later it was finally time to leave. Step FIL shook my hand and gave me a hug. I said goodbye to the rest as everyone else was doing the same. I walked up to MIL and said I just wanted to tell you thank you for today. She gave me a hug and told me to please come back. I said I will and thank you.
We loaded the kids up and Was was getting ready to get in her car and take them home. She came over to me and hugged me and told me merry christmas. This was the second hug. I have to admit that I started wondering a bit if maybe there was some chance some feelings even if slight were starting to show. W asked me if I was going to go with them the following day to the Gaylord Hotel which is this mega hotel that is just phenominal for the afternoon. I said yes, I will join them. She said ok.
A bit later I got a text from MIL telling me thank you for continuing to show them that they are loved and they feel blessed to have me.
I said thank you and I do love them and they really made my Christmas great. She sent another back saying may the Lord bless me.
W had said she would meet me at my place so I woke up and went and got us starbucks again as I seem to be really taking a liking to that lately. Was again grateful for hers that I piced up. We all drove to the hotel to meet her family to hang out. There are shops inside, restaurants, walk ways, pools, etc. It really is neat. During our walking around together with W, our girls, MIL, step FIL, SIL and her boyfriend and neice, W tells me thank you for coming and she just didn't want me to spend Christmas alone and figured with friends being out of town or with families that I shouldn't have to be alone. Then she said D7 wanted me to come to the movie with them tonight. Very much stating the truth about things to me. I knew inside already, but it still bothered me some. I didn't show it. I was cheerful and friendly and talking to everyone for the afternoon. After we all went to SIL's boyfriends house for food and chatting. W really had nothing to say to me or talk to me about while there. I just ignored it and talked to the rest of them and helped prepare the food. After everyone got ready to leave and we all shook hands and hugged goodbye. I had ridden with W so we decided we would take our girls right after to see Alvin and the chipmunks. So we get to the theatre and spend a bit of time at the restaurant there because it was to early to go inside the theatre. We chatted a bit and W and the girls got themselves something to drink while we waited.
We went into the movie and at different parts of the movie I started thinking about me and W and wishing we were together again. I was sad at some points. After it was over D7 and D12 got into a fight heading out that literally had to be broken up. W was hacked off at them and went to the restroom and asked me to calm down D7 which I did. I spoke to both girls and W said they are both in trouble, blah blah blah. We got into W's car and I tried to be cheery and talk to the girls and joke about the movie and so forth.
We got back to my apartment and W and the girls got there things and headed down to the vehicle. Prior to heading down, D12 was still upset so I went into her room and hugged her and told her she will be ok and how much I love her. I held her for a minute talking to her. I turned around and there was W standing silently watching. I walked down with them and gave the girls a hug and told them I love them and what a great Christmas it was. Then W came up and gave me another hug and said merry christmas and thank you for coming. I stood outside and waived goodbye to them until they drove away.
I headed up into my apartment alone and sat down on my couch and looked at the cross I have on my mantle and started crying. I think something died in me and told me it really is over with me and W. I just don't see any feeling out of her other than charity.
I couldn't have done any better than I did this weekend. I reconciled with MIL. I dressed great, was cheerful, helped out, spent time with my kids, gave W her space, put my best foot forward in every situation, etc. There just wasn't anything more I could have done. I didn't drink at any point with W and her family. I think emotionally I gave it all I had and just came to a realization that it just doesn't matter to W.
OM is coming into town Wednesday night and will be here for the weekend and it looks like he will be spending it with W.
P.S. Other than my girls fighting tonight I did everything I could to give them a great Christmas and they did have a great one.
I think I am emotionally and physically exhausted now.
D7 was so grateful for a white Christmas and kept telling me that we should thank God for giving us a white Christmas. That really helped make hers and truth be told mine as well very special.
Kevin
Well Kevin,
Ouch...oh sure, I could pick at you for things like you saying you felt insulted by the fudge making gift, but it really was a parental gesture ( it wasn't an insult from her) and to lighten up about the bloody lip comment and blah blah blah.
But the thing is,
you are hurt b/c the gift wasn't personal, and the whole situation felt increasingly platonic to you, and was not the way a wife gives to a husband.
Coupled with her words later on, some realities hit you....
So all I can say is that
YES you DID do all you could this holiday. So, leave the results up to God. If the answer from your w is "no", then so be it. Maybe it's time to ask God to help you accept it, or to at least cope with it. No more listing your wants, (HE knows them!) but instead letting His will be done and letting him into your heart so you can deal better with things as they are.
You did your best; you didn't over react, and you accepted your wife's charity for what it was; a decent gesture from her. There was no vindictivness from her; nothing cruel, she simply treated you like the father of her kids and nothing else.
I know that hurts and I feel really bad for you. But hey, it's an improvement. And if you can just accept things as they are now,
for now, and leave the results up to God, maybe you can truly begin living your life well and seeing what life has in store for you right around the corner. NO assumptions about how great the older OM is...or how
all of that will pan out perfectly or that you'll lose in every comparison--(oh and way to go with d12, putting your needs away and comforting
her)...just Trust that no matter what your w has chosen, you will be alright.
God will see to that if you let Him.Sorry it all hit you the way it did. But I can understand why, and it's a tough tough time for it all to be made clear to you..I know how it hurts.
And
I know 2010 will be better for you. LET IT BE...
j-
I think you did great. Those first few holidays are going to be hard with everyone navigating their place. You didn't go overboard and held it together! Very proud of you.
I know it hurts and it sucks that W is indifferent. Like she said maybe pray for acceptance and peace.
You did really good Kev!
Hi K4D,
A message for everyone on K4D's thread, but mainly for Kevin.
1. To help Kevin
2. To make people helping him think, and God bless you for helping him.
I won't go into detail, you can search my name and get my story but first bomb 3 1/2 years ago separation 3 years ago. together 20 years.
What I have learnt.
When you get the bomb, just read this forum and it's almost identical, same reason whether MLC or not. They always seem to have given it because there is someone in the wings.
Rule one, It is never about you. good bad or ugly once there is someone else, back off basic of DB look after yourself (easier said than done, bearing in mind this is coming from someone who has taken over 3yrs to get it)
I read on here and see it just going around and around, there are many wise people on here, you can see from their posts who can get it straight away and when you do stick with them like glue. For you Kevin I think it's 25 listen and learn.
For me the person who speaks with depth and understanding is Bworl, I've spent far to many hours on here and this man has more insight than anyone I've come across so if he goes on any ones thread, please be thankful.
Now this thread has made me learn, I relate so much to Kevin it's quite weird, Yes the sooner you move on the better but as you all know when you spend your life with someone and it all crashes it is utter devastation. Some move faster than others there is no right or wrong at the speed it is always right for the person at that time.
To everyone out there getting frustrated with Kevin, just think back to your own bomb and how utterly lost you were. If you move quicker well done. Your helping for a reason, because you can.
This may sound preaching as I've not contributed, but I am now.
I've decide to write as a line in Kevin's post about having a great Christmas, doing so well and then going home and crying realizng it really is over is exactly what I did 3 years down the line.
To everyone, the basics, look after yourself, there is no race.
Take care
Charlie
25, SO2, Strongerthanthis,
Thank you. I am not sure if 2010 will be a better year in terms of the family, but I intend to make it a better year in terms of my career and life.
So I went and talked to this agency this morning. Apparently it is a fee based agency. I talked to the vp of recruiting and he said from looking at my resume they can easily get me 75k to 100k. I only make 55k right now. He said at my age, that is minimum wage in the corporate world. It got me to thinking that he is right about that. They want $5,700. He said they deal with executives in companies and have 100% rate of finding people jobs. He said they don't take candidates unless they know for a fact that they can place them. He said they have 7 complaints listed on the BBB in 4 years and 3 of them were candidates that they turned down. He said I need to get my career going now because I don't want to be 40 and still where I am.
It is a big chunk of money up front. But if it guarantess the jump in pay, it will be worth it. I guess the difference is they have contacts with executives in high places and I don't. It would also be an 18 month contract.
So it left me thinking about a few things.
Kevin
I am glad you went to the meeting for informational purposes.
I am glad you feel that 2010 must be about you and your future.
Just for discussion sake the idea of a fee based agency leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Keep in mind the recruiter you spoke with today is a sales person and makes commission on your agency fee. I find it odd that when they called to set up the appt. they did not mention to you that the agency they rep is a fee based service. To me, that is a red flag.
You said you posted your resume online, right? Is there a way to change your profile so that fee based agencies will not contact you? If so you might want to try that and see if your resume generates any interest. The company that hires you should be paying the agency fee, not you!
I am glad you are being proactive about your career and I do think it's a great first step in the "year of Kevin" I am just leery of fee based agencies.
CG,
I am a little leary to. I was quite disapointed when I got there and was told that. I don't know if there is a way to block fee based agencies, but I will look at it and see. I agree that if they are that confident, they should be willing to get the fee from the company themselves.
It is a bit shakey and I have not made a decision to go with them. It just left me with things to think about. Definitely my career path has to improve and there are other top agencies that wouldn't charge me the fee.
Yes, I posted my resume online to 5 different sites. I don't expect many if any calls this week. Probably closer to mid January when budgets open up and everyone is back in the office in full swing.
Kevin
I guess the idea of a fee based agency doesn't bother me, it's the fact that they didn't tell you they were fee based when they made the initial contact. Did you do any research at all on the agency before you went to the meeting?
Of course they are going to tell you all the things they can do for you and make it sound like a done deal. They also used a bit of reverse psychology it seems by pointing out your current wage/age. Obviously you are not where you want to be or you wouldn't be putting your resume online!
Why not contact the non fee based agencies you know of and see if you can set up a meeting? If they are willing to give you a meeting do your research! Know the names of the higher ups at the agency and the background - be proactive!
I guess the idea of a fee based agency doesn't bother me, it's the fact that they didn't tell you they were fee based when they made the initial contact. Did you do any research at all on the agency before you went to the meeting?
I didn't really research them because I have used agencies in the past and been contacted by many more as well. So I figured it is just another agency that might have good job potential. I am currently with an agency right now. I just haven't dealt with a fee based agency in years and had pretty much forgotten they existed.
Of course they are going to tell you all the things they can do for you and make it sound like a done deal. They also used a bit of reverse psychology it seems by pointing out your current wage/age. Obviously you are not where you want to be or you wouldn't be putting your resume online!
True.
Why not contact the non fee based agencies you know of and see if you can set up a meeting? If they are willing to give you a meeting do your research! Know the names of the higher ups at the agency and the background - be proactive!
That is what I was thinking of doing next. I have some contacts at some and I am going to try and get something going at those.
Kevin
Does anyone know if the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" books are worthy of anything more than real estate investing? Are they good for getting other businesses started besides real estate? A friend of mine recommended them to me and she runs a business in the CNC machines industry.
Just wondering if anyone has any opinions on those books.
Kevin
What exactly are your career goals? Are you just looking to make the most money possible no matter what you do?
I have been self employed for almost a decade and it is not easy (but I love it!). You must be very aggressive, extremely proactive, disciplined and very passionate about what you are doing. Also, the first few years of owning a business are very lean and it's highly advisable to have at least one year of living expenses saved up.
If your end goal is simply to make as much money as possible doing whatever (and there is nothing wrong with that, I am just trying to understand) to me, starting a business is not the way to do that.
Well,
The end goal is obviously to make more money. But I am not interested in real estate. It would have to be a business I know something about. I would be interested in starting a servicing business of some sort for corporations. Right now I am with a group of guys and we are looking at developing a service app for certain industries. I don't want to go into it more than that on here. But other businesses would peak my curiosity as well if they were profitable and I had some understanding of how they work.
Kevin
Does anyone know if the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" books are worthy of anything more than real estate investing? Are they good for getting other businesses started besides real estate? A friend of mine recommended them to me and she runs a business in the CNC machines industry.
Hey Kev, I'll offer my insights, as I have read many of them now.
IMHO, just like DB/DR, they are not specifically about a particular investment or financial issues, but about your relationship with finances/investing in general.
Call it GAL, financial style. But, just like any advice, there are some truths, and some things that will not apply to you, and there will be some things that many people disagree with.
For me, just like DB/DR, I had many 'epiphany' moments when reading them. We think we know and understand finances and investing, but we generally do not.
How many people here know exactly how our, or the global, monetary system actually works, or what 'money' is at all? I would say 90% of people have little to no understanding of it, or finances, yet try to 'win' at the game of money with no knowledge of how it even works to even pony up to the table.
Me included! I have only recently been working on this, and been on hiatus a bit to work on myself now, and plan on going back to it after I can get through this transition.
Interestingly, RK has made a fortune now off of these books, and many people think he is a bit of a 'charlatan' for doing so. I like to think of it differently, but also think people need to come to there own conclusions on there worth..
If your desire is to have your own business and you want it to be profitable right off the bat then you will need to buy an existing business. STARTING your own business is a ton of work, time and money.
You have to think about marketing, accounting, obtaining market share, taxes, insurance, client contact and a million other things. It is wise to create a business plan to see if your idea is even viable. Study other entities that are doing what you wish to do. Conduct market share studies.
Look up SCORE online and find your local chapter.
iwantittowork,
Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.
CG,
Ya, I know we are looking at 2 to 3 years easily and we have all agreed to do it for no pay until and if it starts to turn a profit down the road. The idea came from an industry we all worked together in. We are basically taking the same idea and changing it to fit a different industry.
I will take a look at SCORE. I had never heard of that one before.
Kevin
It is essential that you begin to educate yourself with resources pertaining to small business. SCORE is a good first step. I am surprised you never heard of it if you have owning a business on the brain.
What formula did you use to reach the time frame of 2-3 years to turn a profit? What research and market share do you have to back that up? Are you comfortable with a group of people that are willing to work for no pay in the hopes that a profit will be turned "down the road"?
What research have you done to see if your idea is even viable? Do you have any stats that offer you a piece of mind that in 2-3 years the app you want to create will even still be technologically current and useful? Do you and your group have clearly defined roles for all aspects of running a business?
No more free advice
It is essential that you begin to educate yourself with resources pertaining to small business. SCORE is a good first step. I am surprised you never heard of it if you have owning a business on the brain.
It is no secret that I am not most knowledgable on resources out there.
What formula did you use to reach the time frame of 2-3 years to turn a profit? What research and market share do you have to back that up?
Just guessing. It will take probably a year to develop the app and fit it to what we are looking for. I have seen enough apps developed in corporations to know this is a safe bet. Then it will take time to market it to different companies and tweak it to fit their specific needs. I also know a business developer who sells solutions in the IT industry that can help us out to. I already talked to him about it.
Are you comfortable with a group of people that are willing to work for no pay in the hopes that a profit will be turned "down the road"?
We all have jobs. We have known each other for almost 2 years. They are all good guys. We all worked together for the same company which is how we met.
What research have you done to see if your idea is even viable? Do you have any stats that offer you a piece of mind that in 2-3 years the app you want to create will even still be technologically current and useful?
From working where we did, we did get to see the nitch being filled for one type of industry and we decided it can be filled for others. We worked on it first hand at the company we were at. It will most definitely have to be tweaked and upgraded as things change.
Do you and your group have clearly defined roles for all aspects of running a business?
We have already started laying out our goals and ground work. We are in the beginning stages of it now. There is still more to come with that as we get more into it.
Kevin
Also my friend that runs the CNC repair/maintenance business said she will offer any kind of help and advice to further get us going. She is very knowledgable in the business field.
Kevin
So I am lining up resources to help out with it.
Kevin
Kev,
CG has some great insights, check out SCORE, I started to look into them as well.
Ya, I know we are looking at 2 to 3 years easily and we have all agreed to do it for no pay until and if it starts to turn a profit down the road. The idea came from an industry we all worked together in. We are basically taking the same idea and changing it to fit a different industry.
One of the key things you'll find when researching, is a lot of new startups start and then fail exactly like you have quoted above. The root cause of this is, people with a 'skill' or great idea start a business without understanding that a business does not equal a good idea or skill, and that a good idea or skill does not equal success!
CG already told you some keys, so I'll requote, these are areas where new startups fail to spend enough time, or cut corners on, and can directly be attributed to there failure.
You have to think about marketing, accounting, obtaining market share, taxes, insurance, client contact and a million other things. It is wise to create a business plan to see if your idea is even viable. Study other entities that are doing what you wish to do. Conduct market share studies.
You can't guess when it comes to business, you need to have a plan that is adaptable based on many factors (the economy, tech developments and a host of other things).
Before you even think of starting any business you must learn to find and use resources. Without that skill set you will fail.
I wasn't asking if you were comfortable with the people you are thinking of starting a business with. I was asking if you think vague phrases and time frames without viable research and stats to back it up sound like a good foundation to put your idea on.
My point was before you start "getting in to it" you need to have a plan that is not made on guesses and what other people tell you. You need to have a solid plan based on facts, figures, research and defined roles.
We are just in the beginning stages of formulating everything. Things will be more defined the further we get into it. As you pointed out iwantittowork and CG, there are many aspects to consider and make sure we have nailed down. This will all be addressed the more we start formulating our plans.
Kevin
there are many aspects to consider and make sure we have nailed down. This will all be addressed the more we start formulating our plans.
[sarcasm]
I am gonna go waaaayyy out on a limb here...
[/sarcasm]
and say the above is the ONLY thing you should be focused on formulating for a plan..
What is true, is that the idea itself becomes less important than the
business itself, especially at startup.
It's proven over, and over, ideas with solid business behind them can work, even in often competitive fields. The best idea may not always win out. A mediocre idea with and excellent business plan can often win over an excellent idea with mediocre business plan.
True, there are one hit wonders, and immediate successes in the business world, but you have just as good a chance of hitting the mega millions, so why not invest in lottery tickets first?
I hope you all succeed, maybe I'll be a customer someday, so don't get discouraged, just do the legwork required..
We are going to do the leg work. Thanks iwantittowork.
Last night I locked my key in my car and didn't discover this until midnight. W was still awake online.
Me: Do you have an extra key to the camry?
W: don't think so, why?
Me: locked my key in the car
W: Oh crap
W: Where are you?
W: I thought I gave you the spare key
Me: at home gonna try a clothes hanger
W: hmm ok.
W: hey...
W: I think you can call insurace roadside assistance
Me: I don't think the Camry has full coverage
W: I put the back on your car bc we can't afford for you to not have it
W: not full coverage... I don't think. check our policy online
W: but roadside assistance, yes
W: I'm still here
W: hey... if you can't get it open, etc. let me know what we need to do to get you to your interview
Me: how do I contact roadside assistance?
W: hmmm... hold on
Me: Found it
W: ok good
Me: they are sending someone out
Me: why does it show you as offline all of a sudden?
W: ok. good. i'm glad. what's it going to cost you?
Me: they said it will be covered
W: because I went invisible bc people were pinging me
Me: LOL
Me: makes sense
Me: thanks for the help. have a good evening
W: no problem. glad I could help. sorry i forgot to tell you i put that back on your car.
Me: NP
W: good luck tomorrow
Me: thanks. I printed out my resume and left them at my friends house
Me: I will have to find somewhere early in the morning to reprint
W: there's a fedex office I think on the tollway, on the southbound side
Me: ok
W: you might look
Me: will do
W: anyway... D7 is finally asleep. so i'm going to sleep now. glad that insurance was able to help you. call if you need anything
Me: thanks
W: np. we both need new jobs. its important that we help each other there when we can.
Me: yes it is. agreed.
W: alright... well phone is by me
W: goodnight
Me: goodnight
I will probably get 2x4'd for this conversation last night. I ended up needing her assistance to avoid having to call a locksmith or someone like that and have to pay for it.
Truthfully, I don't see why we need to help each other with jobs. I just agreed because she had helped me out of a bind there. Worse case scenerio, I would have just rescheduled in the morning. I didn't need her help for the job, just wasn't sure if she had the key or not.
I remember when I needed help getting a better job before earlier on and she refused no matter what. Now that her job is ending, all of a sudden we should help each other. She wants to know what agencies I am talking to and wants me to let her know if they would be good for her to talk to.
Is this the classic cake eating?
Kevin
IMO your W wants both of you to have stable jobs before she files for D. Instead of just saying that (IMO of course) she is presenting it like the two of you will help each other so her real motives aren't the spotlight. I also think that is why she keeps asking you about the lease and what apartment you will choose. I feel she wants you both to be settled and gainfully employed before she proceeds with the D.
My 2x4 is once you found out you might have roadside coverage you still asked your W how to use that resource when you easily could have figured it out on your own.
If you don't want to help each other with jobs then why did you agree with her on IM that it would be a good thing? IMO you missed a good chance to set a boundary and let her know that your job search and the resources and contacts you have are not for sharing!
Think about it - she makes more money than you and has for a while therefore there is a good chance she would be paying support to you if once you do divorce you have 50/50 custody. She will not want to do that so her plan " to help each other find better jobs" certainly, IMO, has motives that are not quite as she stated.
My 2 cents.
We interrupt this business class to bring you back to our regularly scheduled 2x4 already in action..
You're killing me Kev.
Killing me!
I need a bandage for my head from smacking it every time I read some more of your thread...
You have been separated since 3/09 and need to call your STBXW, who has long since checked out of your R, and is actively with other men....
For you car keys and information on your car insurance?!?!
You know yourself how needy this appears, so I won't beat you with the aforementioned 2x4.
The only, and I mean only thing you should be contacting your STBXW about is the kids.
You really need to go dark. And I mean like blocking your STBXW IM's, FB pages, anything at all, dark.
Black hole like dark, unless the kids are involved...
I wished I lived near you so I could bring you out for a beer, or at least a cup of coffee if you don't drink, so you could start to move on with your life, and find the one true Kev!
Well,
I contacted her because I didn't have the other key to the car and I wasn't sure if she had it. I was also not aware that she had put the roadside assistance back on the insurance. So that was actually helpful to know given the current situation of the key being locked in the car.
I agreed with her out of niceness because she had just helped me out of a bind.
Now she sent me a text asking how the interview went this morning. I haven't yet responded and don't know how I will respond.
Kevin
Kev,
Great job at Christmas! Regardless of what W chooses to do from here, you did great. My W does the same, somewhat motherly and platonic gestures, but I've come to realize that she's showing care. Yes, it comes across condescending, like the "I didn't want you to be alone at Christmas" comments, but that's the pullback we've all experienced. A little bit of warmth, then "this doesn't mean anything" from the WAS right after. I call BS on that. There were lots of positives and she's thinking about them. I'm proud of you and you should feel good about how you did.
Don't worry about this OM stuff. Early in my sitch I spent way too much time snooping and wondering about it. It sounds like you hear bits and pieces from the girls, and assume a lot from that. In the alien's mind you aren't married any more, and she's free to do whatever, including male "friendships". And maybe they are just that. Do you really want to know either way? She could be reconsidering in spite of all that.
Sorry that your headhunter interview turned out to be one of those pay-up-front, bait-and-switch deals. You pay them $7.5K and they maybe get you a $20K raise? I wouldn't listen to their salary talk about your age either, all that's off in this recession. I was making $43K pre layoff and had just been promoted, I'm 28. What does any of that matter now? Just take this as encouragement that your resume peaked some interest.
You keep saying that budgets will open up next year, sorry to say but I don't see it. IT jobs seem to be stuck at contract-only right now, like you're experiencing. And as for "contract-to-hire", I watched 6 month promises turn into 2 1/2 years at my old job. Makes me wonder if they planned to screw them over from the beginning. Fortunately I was full-time.
CG, what kind of business do you run? I'm fascinated by all of your advice above. It's cool to hear you explain the pros and cons I've been thinking through. I'm just an employee of a start-up, not a founder, but I'm finding I work well this way.
To me, it's a question of do you thrive in the startup environment vs. a normal job. The emotional roller-coaster, the non-typical work schedule. Kev, your comment about your co-workers makes me think you need to read #1 here:
http://www.paulgraham.com/really.htmlThis wouldn't be a typical surface level work relationship. You'd be trusting everything to these guys if you do it. I enjoy the trust I have with my boss, vs. the "how's the wife and kids" corporate speak that drove me nuts. Which way do you work better? And like CG said, are you a self-starter who taps into all available resources? Maybe you and your partners could build this up without quitting your day jobs.
Here's more info on Graham, he seems to be the guru of tech start-ups, and I've really found his site enjoyable. He seems to think business plans don't matter, the idea does. Might be tech startups break the normal rules. Which is why I like them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Grahamhttp://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/09/0929_most_influential/7.htm
Please think about the last post you made. I really do believe with all my heart every single person here wants you to be a man and stand on your own two feet and not rely on your W for anything.
Earlier today we spoke about using resources to get you ahead, correct? Apply that same concept to the whole car/key situation. If you were unsure if the vehicle still had roadside assistance coverage why not be 110% sure BEFORE you contact your W? It would have taken a few short minutes to call the insurance carrier or log on from your phone to verify the coverage and you would not have had to contact your W at all. Since you still go along with what she says and are not at the point to be able to say NO to her, you would have avoided agreeing to help one another w/the job hunt for the sake of being "nice".
Text her back: Babe, you're a doll for asking but I can't just give *anybody* all my job resources and contacts <wink> then go dark until you exchange the children again.
Kev,
I know how you feel, as most others do here too, and was hoping my light post would come across at least somewhat funny to you along the way..
Don't forget the message in the post though, you should have her contacting you when things go wrong, if you ever want to be the lead in this, etc. That is not likely to happen at this point in your sitch, but you should be aware of it.
Now she sent me a text asking how the interview went this morning. I haven't yet responded and don't know how I will respond.
This is my 2 cents, and not sure if it's the best DB or not, but I would wait at least 2 hours from getting that txt.
Then, if your reply at all, and I don't care if you bombed the interview, got arrested for trespassing during it, threw up on the interviewer, spilled your coffee on the receptionist.......Well, you get the picture, at most I would reply with:
"It went well, thanks!"
And that is absolutely it! You want mystery to be on your side, you her to wonder what is happening with YOU, not vice versa.
Make sense?
Don't worry about this OM stuff. In the alien's mind you aren't married any more, and she's free to do whatever, including male "friendships". And maybe they are just that.
Get real!
I am really sorry about the folks here who are suffering and hurting because of infidelity on the part of their spouse. I personally think it's the worst thing one person could do to the other...short of killing them!
That said, sticking your head in the ground and saying it's dark outside doesn't change the fact that the sun is shining very bright outside!
Yup.
Jon I will take a look at those links. I hope the BS you are calling is right.
CG, I understand what you are saying. But I had canceled the roadside assistance some time ago, so why would I turn around and call them to ask if I still have it? W put it back on their without asking me about it so I had no knowledge that what I had canceled was no longer canceled.
I also see your point about the motive being different than what she is reflecting for the jobs.
I do like both of yours and iwantittowork's text responses.
Kevin
a better text response.
"$7500 head hunter fee. But I got a date for tonight with the receptionist. woop woop"
My point is that you didn't try to use ANY resources before contacting your W? At the very least you didn't contact your W with solutions ready to go. How much can it cost to have a locksmith come out... 100.00? IMO 100.00 would be worth every penny if it meant you did not have to appear needy and unable to reach solutions on your own.
At the very least you could have IM'd her and said:
W: I locked my keys in the car and am unable to locate the spare key. I just called a locksmith but wanted to verify you did not have the spare key.
Once she did let you know you had the coverage the FIRST words out of your mouth were "how do I use it?". Why? How do you think you would use it? Call and say "yo, insurance dudes, my keys are locked out and I need help"
If you can get in the habit of handling basic problems on your own the larger issues will become easier to deal with. No excuses, no justifications... JUST DO IT. Exhaust every possibility before you contact your W. Hell, I would have taken the city bus to the interview before contacting her.
How do you expect to run a business or find a high paying job if you don't even have the sense to figure out how to use roadside assistance? It doesn't seem like an unreasonable question.
Yikes, a lot happened while I wrote the post above.
Why is W losing her job? This could be a good thing. MWD has been posting about the recession's affect on the divorce rate.
http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/recessions_silver_lining_falling_divorce_rate/14650/Kev, my main feedback on the IM is that it came across needy. Telling her that you hadn't printed the resumes, etc. "We can't afford for you not to have roadside." "We've got to get you to the interview".
Your W reminds me of mine, business-like, good with details, cold. I've been thinking about how I fell into a mother-son relationship with my W far too often during our M, and your IM convo sounded like that.
Splitting the financial and insurance stuff is tough. I'm still on car insurance and AAA with W. So this hit home. But you need to know that she put roadside on your policy. She's still handling the details and you're being passive. That needs to change!
It sucks, but you have to be strong and do things on your own now. This will be better in the long run, even if your marriage is restored.
I relate to your story so much man, thanks for posting even though you know 2X4's will come.
Son of a...
Leave it to SM to one up me on the txt response..
Kev, I'll fly to Texas and take you out for that beer if you reply with SM's response, but you'll have to mean it!
(PS, I know you may think we are making light of your sitch, but I am not. I really do care to see you succeed, you may just have to redefine what succeed is for you... )
I like SM text the best!
I would still find a flirty and mysterious way to let her know that the "job help dept." is closed for good. Be sexy but firm about it. Can you do that?
Lets practice (pretend I am your W)
Citygirl (playing the role of K's W) I want to hear more about your interview since we decided to help each other out on the job hunting front!
Think of a good answer and blow me away!
Kevin,
I'm going to try and say this without sounding harsh. Take a second and ask yourself what you got out of the conversation with your wife. Was it a sense of connection? Temporary rest bit from loneliness? Reassurance that she was not out with someone else?
Now reverse the conversation and think about her texting you for the same situation. How would you look at her? Dependent? Incapable of performing simple functions? Scatterbrained? Clueless.
Is this how you want to be perceived by someone who would like to be able to depend on you?
a better text response.
"$7500 head hunter fee. But I got a date for tonight with the receptionist. woop woop"
Now that is funny. Needed that today!
Lets practice (pretend I am your W)
Why don't you come over here I got a couple positions you might like. Ever try stand and carry?
SM - we know YOU know how to answer such things (and yes, of couse I have tried it!). The idea is to get KEVIN to answer such things like that!
Funny that the roadside assistance thing has come up for you today, I am posting something to you from my sitch from just last night/today.
I just paid the bills last night, and in it was our roadside assistance renewal, and I struggled with if I should renew STBXW's or not. Here is how I handled it.
I renewed hers for this year, then this AM when I dropped off d8, I handed her the renewed card, and said.
"STBXW, I have decided to renew your roadside assistance for this year, and here is your card. Next year, you will have to take charge of this."
Her reply was at best a meek "Ok." and then she took the card.
Now, in my albeit somewhat warped mind, I took the lead there, made the decision, she knows it, and she knows that it will now end after this year, but her response was not what I cared about.
I cared that my d8 would not be stranded on the road with STBXW at some point this year for a car problem. If she's out with some other dude, and that happens, that is a chance I'll take to ensure my d8 is OK while I am not around this year, and I can live with that.
Steve,
You will have to fill me in on what your own story is someday.
CG,
I know. It was a dumb question to ask how to use it. I was standing outside with my car and cell phone. She was at home on her computer. I guess I figured she could look it up faster. It was midnight. Still, you are correct. That was dumb on my part.
Jon,
My W's contract is coming to an end. But she is interviewing for jobs that pay the same or more than what she is making now. MWD's suggestion that women suffer financially from a D does not apply with my W. My W makes far more than I do and is looking to even up that now.
I didn't know she had handled the roadside assistance. She got her new vehicle and put it on our insurance. That was fine by me as long as she was covering half of the bill. She hadn't informed me that she had done more. It wasn't me being passive about it, it was that I was not even aware of what she had done.
iwantittowork,
As funny as Steve's response was and I do love his responses sometimes, I won't dare send that to W. If I did, she would actually be all for it. It wouldn't get the same response from her as it would from other WAS's. Lets not forget that this is the woman who has told me on more than one occasion to go out and sleep with someone and she meant it. After all, she was taking her of herself in that manner.
Believe me, I want to succeed also. But if I dare say I want to succeed with my W, I will get beat over the head for it. Here is a question that a friend of mine brought up to me as I have no answer for. He said how do you start reconciling again? How do you start pursuing again when the time is right and how do you know when the time is right?
I had no answer but thought about it myself. I know how to go dark. I know how to avoid W and give her space. I know how to live without her as much as it hurts. But I don't know how to reconcile back or even know when it is appropriate to start moving towards that direction again.
I thought it was a good question even if it doesn't apply to my sitch right now.
Kevin
Lets practice (pretend I am your W)
Citygirl (playing the role of K's W) I want to hear more about your interview since we decided to help each other out on the job hunting front!
Think of a good answer and blow me away!
I saw a help wanted sign at hooters.
Kevin
Now reverse the conversation and think about her texting you for the same situation. How would you look at her? Dependent? Incapable of performing simple functions? Scatterbrained? Clueless.
Is this how you want to be perceived by someone who would like to be able to depend on you?
No. And I think I get the point about the roadside assistance now and that whole conversation.
In the past when W has had car issues, she actually called her guy friends to come help her and avoided calling me other than to let me know what happened and her and the girls were fine.
Kevin
You must put the idea to rest that you and your W are still a team. Other than co-parenting it doesn't matter that she could get the info faster - you are on your own. Embrace it and learn to love the freedom that offers you.
You contradict yourself. You agreed to HELP your W with the job hunt out of "niceness" when chances are she is pushing this and acting interested in you improving your job situation to be in the best shape possible for a divorce. So, if she wants you to date other women why not do THAT out of "niceness" to please her? Do you see how ridiculous that is?
Next time she says "we have to do this or that" tell her there is no we, you want the bills/finances split and you want off her insurance and you have decided to get your own.
Be firm about that then go back to being mysterious and act manly until you learn how to be manly.
I cared that my d8 would not be stranded on the road with STBXW at some point this year for a car problem. If she's out with some other dude, and that happens, that is a chance I'll take to ensure my d8 is OK while I am not around this year, and I can live with that.
That is big and mature of you. You are watching out for your D8 and putting other feelings aside for her safety. And you did let your W know it next falls on her shoulders and gave her some time to prepare and be ready to take over.
Kevin
Your response isn't bad but I still like SM's text the best!
If you do that I will create a business plan for your for FREE (and Jon, that should answer your question about what I do).
I will need proof you actually did that but if you can provide the proof I will provide the plan!
Take a second and ask yourself what you got out of the conversation with your wife.
BAH! forget the text conversation with your wife. its in the past, over, done with, kaput.
Ever put your parents car in the ditch as a kid? You walked away from it, right? Same difference.
Dont take my advice. but I'd make every conversation with your wife a comedy, have fun with it. entertain her maybe. then leave her hanging. entertain yourself.
best attitude you could have for 2010 is, why is this woman still hanging around. doesnt she get it yet. what can I do to push her away without being rude (cause I wouldnt mind hooking up with her friends)
but dont take my advice.
You must put the idea to rest that you and your W are still a team. Other than co-parenting it doesn't matter that she could get the info faster - you are on your own. Embrace it and learn to love the freedom that offers you.
I understand. Got it.
You contradict yourself. You agreed to HELP your W with the job hunt out of "niceness" when chances are she is pushing this and acting interested in you improving your job situation to be in the best shape possible for a divorce. So, if she wants you to date other women why not do THAT out of "niceness" to please her? Do you see how ridiculous that is?
I guess I don't view that as a contradiction because that is really going against something I want to do. Yes, I tried it temporarily and decided I couldn't do it. I can't compromise myself for a request that she is making to please her.
Next time she says "we have to do this or that" tell her there is no we, you want the bills/finances split and you want off her insurance and you have decided to get your own.
Be firm about that then go back to being mysterious and act manly until you learn how to be manly.
No response on my hooters reply? I guess I don't have what Steve has. But I can accept that.
Kevin
What she says and what she thinks have NOTHING to do with each other. And stop being SO needy!!!!! Once again, every woman on here tells you how unattractive that makes you.
Your response isn't bad but I still like SM's text the best!
If you do that I will create a business plan for your for FREE (and Jon, that should answer your question about what I do).
I will need proof you actually did that but if you can provide the proof I will provide the plan!
Somehow I think it would be not in my best interest long term to do that. Oh I shudder to say that because I know when 25 reads this she will come back with... How is your current plan working out for you? And she will be right. And the rest of you are right to. I have to much fear to say that though to W. The one thing I have been afraid to do is reverse on W and tell her it is over from my perspective because I know she would be in complete agreement with it and probably relieved and feel more at ease being with her other guys. I will have killed all credibility with W to continue to stand for our M. She will look at it as another sitch that I did not come through on if I reverse course. She will also be able to further justify things to our kids.
I don't see that being a good move.
Kevin
What she says and what she thinks have NOTHING to do with each other. And stop being SO needy!!!!! Once again, every woman on here tells you how unattractive that makes you.
I got the point loud and clear. It was a stupid question I asked that I could have just taken a bit more time to get hold of myself.
I might still suggest hooters to her.
Kevin
Well, okay then.
When you aren't a fraidy cat anymore then we will have more to talk about. I don't know what it will take for you to stand up for yourself. You are like the guy that wants to be handcuffed to the bed and beaten silly. Its fun for the woman a few times but after that it becomes kinda boring to be in charge. How many times can you wear nothing but a pair of tall black boots before it gets boring? See what I mean?
You don't see any "move" as being a good one because you are afraid. You are afraid of your own W. Does that seem sane to you? How on Earth can you justifty THAT to your kids? Let your W justify her affairs to them and that is why you are getting divorced.
You are doing nothing productive so nothing productive is happening.
CG,
You don't think it makes me look unstable in W's eyes for me to yet again change course and not stick to something I said considering my past sitch?
Kevin
Steve,
Actually as funny as the receptionist comment was, and that was good... My W would not be impressed because she knows a receptionist does not make as much money as she does. She is all about the money.
Kevin
Honestly, it would be much better to look unstable than wimpy/needy/balless to your W. You annoy me to no end with your neediness and inability to solve very simple problems so I imagine your W is still rather fed up.
I wish I could press a button and help you get to the point where you just don't care.
I hope I am around the day you say to your W.... W, I am tired of your BS, I am tired of you sleeping with other men, I am tired of you using me when it benefits you and most of all I am tired of being married to you. I have decided to file for divorce, I have sought legal counsel and you can expect to be served on xx day. We will sit down and tell the children together although I will not settle for anything less than the total and complete truth from you. While my hope was to stand for our marriage I have decided you simply are not worth the time or effort anymore. All the best, K.
I hope I am around the day you say to your W.... W, I am tired of your BS, I am tired of you sleeping with other men, I am tired of you using me when it benefits you and most of all I am tired of being married to you. I have decided to file for divorce, I have sought legal counsel and you can expect to be served on xx day. We will sit down and tell the children together although I will not settle for anything less than the total and complete truth from you. While my hope was to stand for our marriage I have decided you simply are not worth the time or effort anymore. All the best, K.
I would love to stand up to my exh that way! I may print this out for the future and may get the guts someday to say it!
Lets practice (pretend I am your W)
Why don't you come over here I got a couple positions you might like. Ever try stand and carry?
"WIFE, Let me tell you about the interview,
I think I was sent to the wrong place.
The lady interviewing me was all touchy feely, one minute her hand was on my knee, another minute she was walking around the office and then her hand was on my shoulder, she then took her hair out of her pony tail and let it out, she asked me if it was warm in the room or if it was just her, the interview was only supposed to last for half an hour, I was there for two hours, she was talking about her personal life, she just broke up with her boyfriend, she was new in town, didn't have many friends, asked me if I was single, things I liked to do, said I was cute and funny, asked me if I was interested in going for lunch sometime, gave me her personal number & email address on the back of her business card - seriously this was the weirdest interview I've ever been on, what do you make of all this?! I just acted cool & calm during the whole process because I was interested in getting a 2nd interview for the job and didn't want to blow my chances and she scheduled a follow up appointment. Crazy day I tell you! ;-)"
That's for you K4D, enjoy ;-)
Who cares if your W is impressed with the woman you choose to date? Why does that matter? Do you think she worries if you are impressed by the men she dates? Clearly she does not.
I have a sinking feeling your new found dedication to finding a new job and starting a business is all to impress your W. Is that true?
And so what if your W is not impressed with your choice in a woman and who you CHOOSE to date. If she verbalizes that to you say "you are correct, my new GF doesn't make as much money as you but do you think I care about that when we are rocking each other's worlds?" then wink at your W and carry on.
I have to agree with SM. Become an ass. Become an arrogant prick in a comedic fashion. If for nothing else the entertainment value would be worth it. So far everything you have tried has not even come close to working... so, why not?
LOL Robx,
That was great. Thanks. I needed that.
CG,
I don't know.
Kevin
Who cares if your W is impressed with the woman you choose to date? Why does that matter? Do you think she worries if you are impressed by the men she dates? Clearly she does not.
I have a sinking feeling your new found dedication to finding a new job and starting a business is all to impress your W. Is that true?
And so what if your W is not impressed with your choice in a woman and who you CHOOSE to date. If she verbalizes that to you say "you are correct, my new GF doesn't make as much money as you but do you think I care about that when we are rocking each other's worlds?" then wink at your W and carry on.
I have to agree with SM. Become an ass. Become an arrogant prick in a comedic fashion. If for nothing else the entertainment value would be worth it. So far everything you have tried has not even come close to working... so, why not?
I have read about this. Cocky and funny attitude. I have read it works like a charm. I am just not very good at it. I would have to hire Steve as a coach to do this properly. Dang he is good.
Kevin
Oh CG,
To answer your question about my career path, no, it has nothing to do with impressing W. If she never comes back, I need a better future than the current track I am on. I don't want to be living in an apartment or townhome the rest of my life. I at least need to attempt to build a nicer life for myself and my girls to enjoy.
Kevin
Kev,
I know everyone goes round and round with you on what works and what doesn't, but you won't take the advice on what actually works, and live it. Read up on people that have made it back, and why and how, then live it for yourself, not for your W.
When I said I wanted to see you succeed, that is exactly what I meant. I did not say I want to see you succeed with your W.
However, you say your W is currently all about the money, so what is going to make her more interested in you, if that is what you want, and she truly is into only the money.
Current Kev Version: No job, can't let go, can't stop contacting me for mundane stuff, can't keep track of car insurance, or what the kids are doing in school, constantly temperature checking to see if I am interested at all.
New Improved Kev version: Hmm, I wonder why Kev has not contacted me in a few months? Kev stopped by to pick up the kids in a new car the other day, and was laughing with them on the way back to the car, looks fit, and is that a new hairstyle and outfit? Hey, I heard from someone that Kev is working in his own business now? Who's that hot blond receptionist that is hanging out with Kev now in the new car that someone keeps mentioning to me?
I am no female, but I am going to guess she would go for Kev Version 2.0 over V1.0, if at all, and at least be wondering what she is missing after.
I am no female, but I am going to guess she would go for Kev Version 2.0 over V1.0, if at all, and at least be wondering what she is missing after.
Either way, a better future starts with a better career path.
Kevin
I am half tempted to send Robx's response. lol.
Kevin
Do not even tell me you are STILL pondering the text!
While you are getting a better career what else are you doing for you?
You want to know why SM responses work? Because they are so outrageous you can't help but laugh. When people are laughing they are not thinking of problems or any other BS, they are just laughing. Happy. Relaxed.
SM can pull it off because he does not give a rats ass what anybody thinks. Stop analyzing every little thing to death.
Find your inner freak and let that flag fly! It works... ask the hot Australian dude I met the other night
SM can pull it off because he does not give a rats ass what anybody thinks.
I would like to read up on SM's story and see where he was and where he is now.
Kevin
Don't worry about SM. Worry about Kevin. Reading up on other people's thread is just a way to you to avoid moving forward.
I wish I could press a button and help you get to the point where you just don't care.
Love it! CG, I may not agree with you all the time, but your advice is so good.
For me, this moment was when my W came to tell me she was filing again. She let it expire the first time, and like Kevin I was holding onto threads of hope. Fear and pain are so paralyzing in our sitches. I've gone into "what the hell" mode and it's shaken things up a bit. I need to keep it up.
What would it take for you Kevin, and how would you act? I know your personal beliefs keep you from filing or dating, you're standing and I'm there with you and admire that. But that doesn't mean you can't adopt a more badass attitude, which is what everyone is trying to get at.
But that doesn't mean you can't adopt a more badass attitude, which is what everyone is trying to get at.
Exactly!
Well Jon,
I am going to get hammered for this. But I am not sure. I do love her still even after all of this that has happened. Part of me not filing is because I am trying to be obediant to the church and the other part is I really don't want to move forward in my life without her. I can't seem to let go of the feelings I have for her no matter how real the situation is that I am looking at. And believe me, I know how real it is as it really hit me the other night. But I just can't seem to get myself to release my feelings for her and no longer care. I go through periods when I am fed up with it, but then my feelings come back to me and I just want to reconcile the M and my family. I think about my kids and how much they want us together. I think about her and me and how much I miss her. I even find myself wishing she would even just take another look at me and realize that I know I made a ton of mistakes and that I am sorry for them and will not make them again in the future. But as far as I can tell, she isn't looking back. So while I struggle with my feelings still after 15 months, I also understand the realization of the situation.
For me to not care any longer would mean for me to also not care about what my kids want, need and is best for them which is an intact family that is healed and fixed. But morally I also struggle with looking at someone else down the road that I didn't marry for life to. So if I put that out of my mind, it leaves me basically alone from here on out which is a pretty misreable future unless W at some point some day takes another look at me and what we can have with ourselves and our kids.
So to answer your question about what would it take for me to no longer care. I don't know. If I can still care after all of this, I am not sure.
But I am trucking along trying to change my future regardless of what she decides.
Kevin
But that doesn't mean you can't adopt a more badass attitude, which is what everyone is trying to get at.
I know it. It is just a matter of being able to learn how to pull it off like SM and others so that it is real and comes out right and not some other way that backfires on me.
Kevin
I suppose the attitude is what makes it real. The attitude is what is important. I get it.
Kevin
For me to not care any longer would mean for me to also not care about what my kids want, need and is best for them which is an intact family that is healed and fixed.
You don't know what your kids think. You're projecting your feelings onto them.
Kevin, as counterintuitive to you as it may seem, your wife will not care until you don't care. Until you realize that, and people here have been pretty much telling you that for a long time, you'll be stuck.
For instance,
Part of me right now feels like telling W if you sleep with OM this weekend, it is over and I am filing January 4th. But I know the other part of me tells me I will get over it even if she does as I always seem to get over it after initially being angry about it. I calm back down and I just get over it and continue to hope for a break through in this.
Let me ask you something, if someone can get over more than one A and still forgive and be willing to do what it takes reconcile, isn't it at least worth giving that person another shot to see if things can be fixed? I mean, can I be that bad of a person if I can live through this and still be willing to forgive and fix things to have our M and family reconciled?
Kevin
You don't know what your kids think. You're projecting your feelings onto them.
Kevin, as counterintuitive to you as it may seem, your wife will not care until you don't care. Until you realize that, and people here have been pretty much telling you that for a long time, you'll be stuck.
I get this. But I also know my W is not quite like other W's. I think even if I choose not to care, she still won't care. I don't think she will care either way.
Kevin
Well,
I have a meeting with my priest tonight, then a birthday dinner to attend with friends.
Tomorrow night I am meeting a lady friend who is 36 who is D'd and I will be honest, attractive, who keeps pushing me to go out and date as she has chosen to do. She is one of my sushi buddies that I do dinner with every couple of weeks with another friend who is out of town right now. But we are nothing more than friends. I think she has a soft spot for me and my situation since she kind of went through the same thing.
Wednesday night I get my girls so W can go to dinner with her friends and OM.
Thursday is New Years Eve.
Friday and the rest of the weekend I have my girls.
Kevin
Kev are you saying you're going out to eat some fish tonight?
;-)
sorry I couldn't resist
Your lady friend who is divorced and attractive is going out with you because she has a soft spot for kind, sensitive guys - it happens, possibly because she's been with a jerk for quite some time and wants to try something a little different.
Why not enjoy the evening with her for what it is and forget about "nothing more than just friends", even if it's not a date, why not pretend that it is, get in that mode of thinking, feel the vibe, feel the attraction, feel what it's like when a woman is attracted to you, enjoy it, be funny, make jokes, tease her a bit and stop thinking about the wife for one evening and don't put a damper on what could be a nice interaction with the opposite sex.
Have FUN!
(I had to spell it out just in case you didn't get that part)
If she won't care either way then why not do something different that could make your life better?
I am pretty sure your W doesn't think you are a bad person. If I had to guess it seems like she sees you as many of us here do.. needy, clingy, unable to move forward w/o your W, lacking excitement and unable to make simple decisions on your own.
I for the life of me cannot understand what you are "standing" for since your marriage no longer exists.
You telling your W you are going to file for a divorce if she sleeps with OM won't matter to her. Mainly because she knows you are all bark and no bite. When you are ready to file for divorce you will do so and tell her after the fact. You will be firm and civil about it but you will also be done and beyond saturated with getting nowhere in all parts of your life.
It baffles me how you can continue to see no results in your "standing" efforts and see no results in your personal life yet you refuse to even consider what many people are telling you.
You have to try new things. I started out with trying new things with a group of people I am very comfortable with. Then I made new friends. Then I tried stuff I never thought about trying because life is too short to miss out. I love the freedom I have and it would take a hell of a dude to get me to choose just one! I am loving my new life because I decided I was sick of being sad, stressed out, ill and a host of other things that I just grew very tired of. It was all self inflicted.
Kevin,
I hear you man. Stick with your beliefs, your W needs to see that. But there's a way to do that and still shake things up and become more attractive.
Thinking back on the last two years of my sitch, the advice you're getting works. I didn't lie or try to drop hints, I was just out having fun. She got curious. I need to do that more.
You don't know what your kids think. You're projecting your feelings onto them.
Kevin, as counterintuitive to you as it may seem, your wife will not care until you don't care. Until you realize that, and people here have been pretty much telling you that for a long time, you'll be stuck.
I think even if I choose not to care, she still won't care. I don't think she will care either way.
Kevin
Then that's all the more reson to start living your life for YOU and YOUR DAUGHTERS. Period.
You don't know what your kids think. You're projecting your feelings onto them.
Kevin, as counterintuitive to you as it may seem, your wife will not care until you don't care. Until you realize that, and people here have been pretty much telling you that for a long time, you'll be stuck.
I think even if I choose not to care, she still won't care. I don't think she will care either way.
Kevin
Then that's all the more reson to start living your life for YOU and YOUR DAUGHTERS. Period.
Sad..but true! If your actions won't affect W either way then why bother?
Thursday is New Years Eve.
Ask her if she wants to try something hot and spicy and take her to a Korean restaurant.
Steve she already invited me to a friends birthday party for NYE. But I will be spending it with other fiends
Dump the fiends. pick up the girl.
theres got to be a good james bond line for here...
Dump the fiends. pick up the girl.
theres got to be a good james bond line for here...
Not JB, but...
If you can't do it for yourself, it's your duty to do it to for all the men and women out here routing for you.
Stand up and do your duty!
Part of me right now feels like telling W if you sleep with OM this weekend, it is over and I am filing January 4th. But I know the other part of me tells me I will get over it even if she does as I always seem to get over it after initially being angry about it.
That's why I'm saying not to spend time on it. I understand what Antlers is saying, I'm not advocating putting your head in the sand. If you want, you can quiz your daughters about her every move. But does it really matter if this is a friendship, EA, or PA? As in, will your actions change?
It's up to you man, but from the above it seems you've made your choice. There are way too many stories on here and at one of my counselor's site,
http://www.affairrecovery.com, to give up hope. Just IMO.
I spent so much time and energy snooping and trying to figure out how far my W went, before realizing that I'll still be fighting regardless. And I know now that one of the guys was just a platonic friendship. What a waste.
And this I do know: no affair will make your W happy. So which Kevin will she find when she finally realizes that?
Just some thoughts for you Kev.
Either way, a better future starts with a better career path.
It can, but a better future starts with a change of attitude, beliefs and thoughts first.
I can't seem to let go of the feelings I have for her no matter how real the situation is that I am looking at.
In the words of one Yoda: "That is why you fail.."
For me to not care any longer would mean for me to also not care about what my kids want, need and is best for them which is an intact family that is healed and fixed.
No, that is NOT what your kids need, they need a strong and healed father, no matter what the family situation. You are projecting onto your kids, your feelings and wants. In addition, you still think you can CONTROL this situation, and you can not, and that is what is bothering you, and fear of the future. When you let both of those go, you can then start to move forward.
if someone can get over more than one A and still forgive and be willing to do what it takes reconcile, isn't it at least worth giving that person another shot to see if things can be fixed?
See, this here is still about control. You can get over the A's, but you don't get to control whether or not your STBXW will EVER want to reconcile. You don't even get to decide if it's worth giving it another shot yet, nor if anything can be 'fixed.'
There is nothing to be fixed currently, but yourself.
Until you get to the point above that you not only understand it, but then accept it, and then
live it daily, you won't ever get to make these decisions, because you do not control them one iota.
Why not enjoy the evening with her for what it is and forget about "nothing more than just friends", even if it's not a date, why not pretend that it is, get in that mode of thinking, feel the vibe, feel the attraction, feel what it's like when a woman is attracted to you, enjoy it, be funny, make jokes, tease her a bit and stop thinking about the wife for one evening and don't put a damper on what could be a nice interaction with the opposite sex.
Robx, I will enjoy the evening with her. But she really is just a friend who is already dating other guys. Usually me and her and one other friend always go to sushi together. It’s a team thing for the evening. It just so happens that the 3rd friend is out of town this week and I was in the mood for sushi tonight and asked her if she wanted to go as well. She said yes. Kind of beats going by yourself. But I will enjoy the evening. Afterwards I have some other things I need to take care of. She will probably have her kids with her as they come now and then which is always cool with me. They are good kids.
If she won't care either way then why not do something different that could make your life better?
I am pretty sure your W doesn't think you are a bad person. If I had to guess it seems like she sees you as many of us here do.. needy, clingy, unable to move forward w/o your W, lacking excitement and unable to make simple decisions on your own.
I for the life of me cannot understand what you are "standing" for since your marriage no longer exists.
You telling your W you are going to file for a divorce if she sleeps with OM won't matter to her. Mainly because she knows you are all bark and no bite. When you are ready to file for divorce you will do so and tell her after the fact. You will be firm and civil about it but you will also be done and beyond saturated with getting nowhere in all parts of your life.
It baffles me how you can continue to see no results in your "standing" efforts and see no results in your personal life yet you refuse to even consider what many people are telling you.
CG, I am trying to do something different to make my life better. Hince, trying to get a better job that will give me more opportunities in life. I keep standing on faith that something will give at some point and a turn will occur. Ya, I know, all bark on the D and no action. That’s why I don’t say anything to her and I just keep my frustration to myself. I do consider what people are telling me and I am doing things for me.
Stick with your beliefs, your W needs to see that. But there's a way to do that and still shake things up and become more attractive.
Thinking back on the last two years of my sitch, the advice you're getting works. I didn't lie or try to drop hints, I was just out having fun. She got curious. I need to do that more.
Jon, agreed. I think SM is great at shaking things up with cocky humor and CG is great at shaking things up with boundaries and flirty mysterious humor. I would really like to improve in those areas.
Then that's all the more reson to start living your life for YOU and YOUR DAUGHTERS. Period.
Antlers, that is what I am trying to do. I put my all into Christmas and it appears to have not gotten my W even phased. Although Jon calls BS on that with her. But none the less, I am living my life for me and my daughters.
Sad..but true! If your actions won't affect W either way then why bother?
SO2, to be the best I can possibly be regardless of outward signs from W.
Dump the fiends. pick up the girl.
theres got to be a good james bond line for here...
SM, I looked for JB lines last night. I didn’t really find any that were worthy. You may have to help me out on that one.
If you can't do it for yourself, it's your duty to do it to for all the men and women out here routing for you.
Stand up and do your duty!
Gnosis, is this like doing my duty for my country? Do we have a DBing flag like we have an American flag that I can lead forth the charge with?
But does it really matter if this is a friendship, EA, or PA? As in, will your actions change?
It's up to you man, but from the above it seems you've made your choice. There are way too many stories on here and at one of my counselor's site,
http://www.affairrecovery.com, to give up hope. Just IMO.
And this I do know: no affair will make your W happy. So which Kevin will she find when she finally realizes that?
Jon, I haven’t made a choice other than to pursue a better career path at this point to provide more options of enjoyment in life for me and my girls. Which Kevin will she find when she realizes that no A will make her happy? Geez, I’m wondering if she will ever realize that. She will find a great Kevin if she ever comes to realize that.
No, that is NOT what your kids need, they need a strong and healed father, no matter what the family situation. You are projecting onto your kids, your feelings and wants. In addition, you still think you can CONTROL this situation, and you can not, and that is what is bothering you, and fear of the future. When you let both of those go, you can then start to move forward.
Iwantittowork, I’m not sure where you get that I think I can control the situation. You baffle me with that one. I know I have no control over the situation. I know me and my family are at the mercy of what W decides as far as whether or not we will ever be together again. Now at the same time saying that, I am moving forward with my life and kids. I am not staying stuck. I have plenty on my plate to do.
See, this here is still about control. You can get over the A's, but you don't get to control whether or not your STBXW will EVER want to reconcile. You don't even get to decide if it's worth giving it another shot yet, nor if anything can be 'fixed.'
There is nothing to be fixed currently, but yourself.
Until you get to the point above that you not only understand it, but then accept it, and then live it daily, you won't ever get to make these decisions, because you do not control them one iota.
Iwantittowork, I acknowledged this. I have no control at all over the situation or W’s decisions. I am simply left with the fate of whatever she decides. My kids are left with the same fate as to whether or not they will have their family back intact based off of what W solely decides.
In the mean time, I have a fun yet busy week planned ahead for me some nights and my kids some nights. I had a good night last night with my friends at a separate birthday party than the one my lady friend is inviting me to. I got told I should take some additional dance lessons with the group I was with last night. I might. We will see. I am also scheduling business meetings with my group of guys to keep that moving along in the right direction.
I have to say that with the way I am dressing these days, I ain’t looking half bad. I have to get back to the gym though. Kind of slacked off there for the holidays. I am fighting some kind of cold yesterday and today. I took 1000mg of vitamin C last night and then again this morning. I also took claritan D.
James Bond lines. I kind of like the Johnny Bravo lines better. Maybe I should start practicing those. He always gets slapped for his.
Kevin
Johnny Bravo pick up lines. This guy may never get a date, but gotta love his stuff.
"(shoom)Hey, how'd you like to watch the show in 3-D, sweet thing?"
"Say there, pretty air mama, didn't you see me in your dreams last night?"
"Hey babearilla, that a pretty eensie-weensie, teeny-weenie polka-dot thingy you got going there."
"Come and get it, ladies. I'm yours for the takin'!"
"Hey all you hot mamas. Wanna talk to a steamin' hunk of cyber fella?"
"Hey there, cutie pants. Am I as studly as the Statue of David, or what?"
"Oh, baby! I'm going to make your dreams come true!"
"(whoosh) Hya! Dreamy hunk, right here!"
"You wanna frisk me?"
"Wanna get lost with me (whoosh)?"
"Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, let's roll in the hay."
"I'm gonna say, 'Hey hot mama, wanna go back to my place for a game of Twister?"
Lady: "How many times do I have to tell you I have a boyfriend?!" Johnny: "Well,you look like the kind of girl that could use two."
"I bet your name's Mickey, 'cause you're so fine. You're so fine...(whack)."
"Hey there, foxy hygiene girl. (whoosh) I love a babe with minty breath."
"All right. I guess that makes me the object of desire, huh baby?"
Johnny: "Excuse me, miss." Lady: "(gasp!)" Johnny: "How'd youlike to paint the town red with a happenin' hipster?"
"Hey there, miss. I'm Johnny B. Wanna spend the day with me?"
"Whoa. Man, you're pretty!"
"Hey there, Spanish seniorita. Sprechen se love?"
(at computer)"Hey there, smart mama."
"(sniff, sniff) You smell kinda pretty. Wanna smell me?"
"Say, how 'bout you and me sharin' a soda right now?"
"You're steamin' baby! You too. And you. And you, pretty man. Oh man, time flies when you're having fun."
"Hello, hotline. You're boyfriend left ya'? Why, what are you wearin'?"
Kevin
Another good line.
'MAN, IT MUST BE GREAT BEING YOU WATCHING ME'
hehehe,
Kevin
Antlers, that is what I am trying to do. I put my all into Christmas and it appears to have not gotten my W even phased. Although Jon calls BS on that with her. But none the less, I am living my life for me and my daughters
Kevin, read this and tell me what's wrong with it.
Drew,
I am sure you are pointing out the contradiction of me saying I am living my life for me and my daughters and at the same time I took a gamble with Christmas and put my all into seeing if there was any way to turn the events around. It was a gamble that didn't pay off the way I hoped it might. Nothing more.
Kevin
I think what all of us want you to really try and understand and implement is changing the way you view things.
Yes, obtaining a better job will improve your future in a monetary sense but did you ever stop to think the reason you don't have a better paying job is in large part due to some issues you have not yet addressed?
You stated you knocked your socks off to give your girls a good holiday. In the same sentence you also stated your W didn't seem to notices. That is the exact reason so many of us try and point out to you that EVERY action you take seems to come back to your W and what she will think. Please don't come back with some justification or excuse - there isn't one and your words are out there for all to see.
You and your children are NOT at the mercy of your W and her decisions. You and the children *are* a family and an in tact one at that. You don't need your W to create a family, you have the power to do that all on your own.
You always claim to have so much on your plate but IMO those "things" are all outside things and the core issues you struggle with still very much exist. Your W has so much power over you it is alarming. How can you create any sort of R with a person that has so much control over you? What you fail to realize is the *only* way to even begin to think about creating a new R is NOT allow her to have that control over you. She knows she can control you so she does. It is old hat to her. How can you be so dedicated to a woman that has no respect for you as a man?
You are like a sponge - you soak up any bit of attention she gives you in hopes she will realize how "nice" you are and come back. Has that worked? It has not. You equate standing your ground as a man with being mean and it quite simply is not the case.
On Christmas Eve when she came to your apartment to prepare the gifts for the children you described to us in great detail how she was shivering and asked you to warm her up. IMO you holding her did nothing but prove to her that you would still offer affection while she was sleeping with other men. I would have looked at her like she was from Mars, winked at her and said in a flirty and sexy way "sorry babe, wouldn't want to confuse you with affection, the blankets are in the linen closet". So what if she stomped her feet and pouted? In fact, her stomping her feet and pouting would have given you the perfect opportunity to use on of RobX's lines about not tolerating her crappy behavior.
A new house, a new job or any other "outside" factor will not change what really needs to be changed. I hope one day you truly realize that.
Thanks City Girl. Not sure if Kevin got what you were saying but it hit home from me!
Drew,
I am sure you are pointing out the contradiction of me saying I am living my life for me and my daughters and at the same time I took a gamble with Christmas and put my all into seeing if there was any way to turn the events around. It was a gamble that didn't pay off the way I hoped it might. Nothing more.
Kevin
And that is why you fail.
On Christmas Eve when she came to your apartment to prepare the gifts for the children you described to us in great detail how she was shivering and asked you to warm her up. IMO you holding her did nothing but prove to her that you would still offer affection while she was sleeping with other men. I would have looked at her like she was from Mars, winked at her and said in a flirty and sexy way "sorry babe, wouldn't want to confuse you with affection, the blankets are in the linen closet". So what if she stomped her feet and pouted? In fact, her stomping her feet and pouting would have given you the perfect opportunity to use on of RobX's lines about not tolerating her crappy behavior.
Honestly CG, I am just not quick with comeback flirty lines. I end up being like a deer caught in the headlights more often than not.
Kevin
Thanks City Girl. Not sure if Kevin got what you were saying but it hit home from me!
Kevin got it. Kevin gets it.
Kevin
And that is why you fail.
Because I took a gamble that paid off with W's family but not with W? I don't know. If the family starts warming up to me again and seeing I am not this monster I was made out to be, I think that is a positive step in the right direction. More positive steps in the right direction could eventually lead to some kind of turn around in the future. I wouldn't say it was a complete failure, but maybe the first step completed in a long series of more steps to be taken.
Kevin
All this talk about lines yesterday and no comments or opinions on the Johnny Bravo lines I posted? I think some of them may actually be usuable in certain situations.
Kevin
It is not necessary for you to come back with some flirty line. What IS necessary is for you to come back with some boundaries that tell her you will no longer be her whipping boy and if she chooses not to respect you as a man then she will get nothing from you other than co-parenting support.
W: I am cold, hold me and warm me up
You: No, I do not care to do that... we need to get this show on the road and finish the Xmas preparations so I can get to bed.
Plain, simple and a very clear boundary.
You always make excuses as to why you cannot do something. Somebody (SM?) urged you to start with the BASICS and that would be setting boundaries as a MAN who will tolerate nothing else but respect. Her sleeping with other men as she pleases then coming over to play "happy family" because it is a holiday AND asking you to hold her while she shivers *should* be unacceptable to you.
And, the only Christmas victory you should be focused on is you were able to take the first steps to improve the R with the people that are your children's grandparents.
Lastly, why are you so wiling to take multiple gambles on your W but you refuse to take ANY for YOU? It is baffling to me as you can't control your W but you can control you therefore anything you do to set boundaries would not be a gamble for YOU as YOU can control HOW you set and enforce them.
Thanks City Girl. Not sure if Kevin got what you were saying but it hit home from me!
Kevin got it. Kevin gets it.
Kevin
No, you don't. You continue to say and demonstrate that you don't.
Her sleeping with other men as she pleases then coming over to play "happy family" because it is a holiday AND asking you to hold her while she shivers *should* be unacceptable to you.
That it should.
I need to pick up a pack of protective covers so next time I can offer her true warmth in the bedroom if she is that cold.
Kevin
If you know it should be unacceptable to you then why isn't it?
I assume you mean condoms when you say "protective covers"? And you want to OFFER her sex? No. You tell her that is she wants to be warmed up you need get something out of it too.. then wink and walk away.
Work on boundaries as a man before you work on the flirty stuff. BASICS. Setting boundaries shows her you will no longer tolerate being treated without respect. After you have established and enforced those boundaries then be flirty, fun, strong, mysterious and let her wonder what she is missing out on due to her domineering and crappy behavior. And honestly, once you do that with your W I bet your girls will stop pitching fits as they will also get the message that bad behavior will not be accepted as a means to get their way.
Lastly, why are you so wiling to take multiple gambles on your W but you refuse to take ANY for YOU? It is baffling to me as you can't control your W but you can control you therefore anything you do to set boundaries would not be a gamble for YOU as YOU can control HOW you set and enforce them.
Setting boundaries is a gamble for myself. I had a goal in mind this weekend that succeeded with W's family, but failed to move W at least from the visual point.
Isn't going after a new career and trying to launch a business a gamble for me? I know. You are referring to my boundaries or lack there of. My boudaries seem to come and go. They are inconsistant. Therefore they are not effective.
Kevin
Her sleeping with other men as she pleases then coming over to play "happy family" because it is a holiday AND asking you to hold her while she shivers *should* be unacceptable to you.
That it should.
I need to pick up a pack of protective covers so next time I can offer her true warmth in the bedroom if she is that cold.
Kevin
Take a Break,
when you can come back with a more serious and determined attitude we will think about your situation again.
Until then, Read what you wrote and think about what it would really symbolize if that did occur. THINK.
If you know it should be unacceptable to you then why isn't it?
I think I was just caught off guard like the deer in the headlights when she did that. Again, I am not as quick and witty as some of you. Definitely continued room for improvement there.
I assume you mean condoms when you say "protective covers"? And you want to OFFER her sex? No. You tell her that is she wants to be warmed up you need get something out of it too.. then wink and walk away.
Yes, I meant condoms. I was trying to add that something needs to be in it for me to. But again, you deliver much better than I could think to do on my feet.
Work on boundaries as a man before you work on the flirty stuff. BASICS. Setting boundaries shows her you will no longer tolerate being treated without respect. After you have established and enforced those boundaries then be flirty, fun, strong, mysterious and let her wonder what she is missing out on due to her domineering and crappy behavior. And honestly, once you do that with your W I bet your girls will stop pitching fits as they will also get the message that bad behavior will not be accepted as a means to get their way.
"The magic of making up" actually does a really good piece on how to treat bad behavior from your S. I am going to study up on that again. It uses great psychology and I see where it works and gets the results one needs to turn situations back around.
Kevin
Take a Break,
when you can come back with a more serious and determined attitude we will think about your situation again.
Until then, Read what you wrote and think about what it would really symbolize if that did occur. THINK.
I was actually trying to think like you SM on that. Man I have work to do on my deliveries.
Kevin
If you don't know how to set personal boundaries how on EARTH will you ever succeed at running a business? How will you ever climb the corporate latter if you are unsure how to set boundaries? How will you be a good father if you don't know how to set boundaries?
Personal boundaries are a very important part of the foundation to *any* healthy R... be it a friendship, parent/child, marriage or professional situation.
Why do you think corporations spend the time and money they do educating their employees about sexual harassment? Because sexually harassing people in the workplace is an unacceptable BOUNDARY to cross and some people need to be told in a very clear way what is and what is not acceptable.
Don't you want to be the kind of man that knows how to set boundaries that are healthy for all parts of your life? If you are unable to set boundaries why *would* a company take a gamble on YOU and pay you the big bucks? Why would anybody want to go in to business with you or hire your business if you don't know how to set boundaries? What happens when you complete a job as a self employed person and the client doesn't pay you? Will you just be "nice" and hope your kindness helps them realize they must pay you? I doubt it.
Don't you want to be the kind of man that knows how to set boundaries that are healthy for all parts of your life? If you are unable to set boundaries why *would* a company take a gamble on YOU and pay you the big bucks? Why would anybody want to go in to business with you or hire your business if you don't know how to set boundaries? What happens when you complete a job as a self employed person and the client doesn't pay you? Will you just be "nice" and hope your kindness helps them realize they must pay you? I doubt it.
Things are different when money is involved. No, I wouldn't just let that go. If we provide a service that was agreed upon, payment is due and is non-negotiable. I also do set boundaries at work when I am given the authority to do so such as prioritizing and what is unrealistic and I make suggestions based off of that. I don't usually have the final say in that, but I do make my case when it is needed.
Kevin
Hijack. City. Help me out here. Does the boundary need to be stated? Just like in Kevin's case my W wants to have play family without being M. Should that boundary be stated? How?
And yes I do suck at boundaries as well. After all I am a recovering Nice Guy.
Have you even read the Boundaries book? Not skim, but read and fill out the workbook that goes with it.
Quit making excuses and JUST DO IT!!!
At work do you go to managers with problems or solutions to those problems?
So, basically what it all boils down to is as long as you know a "tangible reward" is at stake (money, marriage) then you have no problem setting boundaries BUT the idea of setting boundaries to become a man is not something you deem as necessary as there is not "tangible reward" in that?
Wow.
Without the mindset of being a man that commands respect and will tolerate nothing else you will never have the tangible stuff. That should scare you silly and I have no clue why it doesn't.
Kevin got it. Kevin gets it.
Kevin
Deep doubted it. Deep doubts it.
. Sorry. Couldn't resist. I would say reading just the last 2 pages or so of posts may not have made my jaw drop, but I'm at least slack-jawed now.
There are no emotions involved when it comes to business or work. It is strictly business. If they can't offer what I need, I am looking else where. The same applies to them.
Kevin
Have you even read the Boundaries book? Not skim, but read and fill out the workbook that goes with it.
Quit making excuses and JUST DO IT!!!
At work do you go to managers with problems or solutions to those problems?
Haven't read the book or done the work book. I didn't know there was a work book.
At work, yes, I do go to management when things need to be done differently. Whether or not they agree and go along with it is sometimes beyond my control. But oh yes, there are times when I have to show them the lunacy of some of the things and time frames they are requesting as well as how better to not waste our time when they are pushing for shorter deadlines so we can be more effective.
Kevin
If you don't think emotion is part of the self employment package then you will never make it as a business owner.
Passion, drive, dedication all require an emotional investment in order to make the business work.
And, if you think being self employed is as simple as "if they can't offer me what I need I will look elsewhere" then you might as well put the idea of being a business owner to bed right now. As the service provider it is your JOB (passion, dedication) to present your services in a way that shows existing or potential clients you are *exactly* what they need. You will learn that real quick when the bills are piling up, vendors need to be paid and taxes are due.
Like anything in life, the key to operating a successful business is utilizing creative solutions that offer mutual benefit. Do you know how to do that?
So, basically what it all boils down to is as long as you know a "tangible reward" is at stake (money, marriage) then you have no problem setting boundaries BUT the idea of setting boundaries to become a man is not something you deem as necessary as there is not "tangible reward" in that?
Wow.
Without the mindset of being a man that commands respect and will tolerate nothing else you will never have the tangible stuff. That should scare you silly and I have no clue why it doesn't.
I defend myself quite well at work with valid points. I gave up defending myself and my stance with W because it just made things worse. I obviously didn't deliver my boundaries correctly with W. But at work, I have no problems in that area.
Kevin
If you don't think emotion is part of the self employment package then you will never make it as a business owner.
Passion, drive, dedication all require an emotional investment in order to make the business work.
And, if you think being self employed is as simple as "if they can't offer me what I need I will look elsewhere" then you might as well put the idea of being a business owner to bed right now. As the service provider it is your JOB (passion, dedication) to present your services in a way that shows existing or potential clients you are *exactly* what they need. You will learn that real quick when the bills are piling up, vendors need to be paid and taxes are due.
Like anything in life, the key to operating a successful business is utilizing creative solutions that offer mutual benefit. Do you know how to do that?
I meant if work can't offer me what I need, I will look else where. Obviously that is a different situation when you are self employed. With work, I can find another better job. With business, it is all about making the customers happy and providing the best service possible. Don't get me wrong as the same applies to work, but the difference being if things get ridiculous at work, there are other options. With business, that may not be the case so you have to make that one different and adjust accordingly to keep the business up and running. But again, your original question was about not being paid. I am not going into business to work for free. Payment is a must. I don't go to work for free either.
Kevin
Boundaries are not about "defense".
Boundaries are set and enforced to create a healthy dynamic in all areas of your life.
Example: You stated how you dread the monthly bill talk with your W (who you have not lived with for over a year and is sleeping with other men) yet you where given multiple suggestions on how to change that. You chose not to set a financial boundary and instead you chose dread each month. Do you feel that is healthy? IOW you would rather be uncomfortable, nervous and on edge each month than set ONE boundary that could last a lifetime and remove the monthly dread?
There are no emotions involved when it comes to business or work. It is strictly business. If they can't offer what I need, I am looking else where. The same applies to them.
Kevin
You know you would be more successful in your current situation if you applied that mindset to your wife.
It's counter-intuitive to what you think should work but then again most of this is.
If you can find a better job then why don't you and why did you even consider PAYING somebody else 5700.00 to help you gain a better position?
Using similar logic - your W is not giving you what you need so why not find a better W?
Example: You stated how you dread the monthly bill talk with your W (who you have not lived with for over a year and is sleeping with other men) yet you where given multiple suggestions on how to change that. You chose not to set a financial boundary and instead you chose dread each month. Do you feel that is healthy? IOW you would rather be uncomfortable, nervous and on edge each month than set ONE boundary that could last a lifetime and remove the monthly dread?
I am still thinking over the final split of the accounts. That did not get knocked to the side.
Kevin
So you have been mulling over for at least TWO WEEKS taking care of your own finances like any other single grown man with children would do?
Unless you are loaded with a complicated asset portfolio it seems to me separating finances would be a very simple task.
Can you help us understand why you choose to make everything so complicated? And don't make it about your W or your children.
You know you would be more successful in your current situation if you applied that mindset to your wife.
It's counter-intuitive to what you think should work but then again most of this is.
I realized this after I posted it.
If you can find a better job then why don't you and why did you even consider PAYING somebody else 5700.00 to help you gain a better position?
Using similar logic - your W is not giving you what you need so why not find a better W?
Because none of this is about finding a better W for me.
Of course I could walk out on her and get on the dating sites and find someone else. That isn't what this is about. Setting effective boundaries yes. Ditching her and going off with someone else, no.
The $5,700 I thought about briefly and then decided that is not a smart move. I won't be doing that. There are plenty of other agencies that get paid by the companies that I can utilize.
Kevin
Kevin,
Ever heard the old saw about "if you love something set it free?"
So you have been mulling over for at least TWO WEEKS taking care of your own finances like any other single grown man with children would do?
Because I am also thinking over the impact it might have.
Unless you are loaded with a complicated asset portfolio it seems to me separating finances would be a very simple task.
Can you help us understand why you choose to make everything so complicated? And don't make it about your W or your children.
Well then I can't answer that. It is obviously related to the impact it could have between me and W. Separating the accounts is a simple move. The impact it might have between me and W is what I am pondering over.
Kevin
Kevin,
Ever heard the old saw about "if you love something set it free?"
Yes, I always thought that was the most ridiculous line I ever heard growing up.
I love you so, tah tah.
Kevin
You have an answer for everything on the surface but you fail to see the root issue that barricades every aspect of your life.
If we can see it (strangers) and clearly your W sees it why can't you?
Again, setting boundaries is not about "ditching" anybody, finding somebody else, being mean or defending your stance. Until you really understand that AND implement the mindset I am not sure anything will ever change for YOU as a man.
OMG, Kevin!!!! Quit worrying about the impact on her!!!!!!
You have an answer for everything on the surface but you fail to see the root issue that barricades every aspect of your life.
If we can see it (strangers) and clearly your W sees it why can't you?
Again, setting boundaries is not about "ditching" anybody, finding somebody else, being mean or defending your stance. Until you really understand that AND implement the mindset I am not sure anything will ever change for YOU as a man.
I don't have the answers for everything. I am just trying to explain my mindset and thoughts as I work through them.
Kevin
Kevin, have you ever thought about seeing a counselor?
OMG, Kevin!!!! Quit worrying about the impact on her!!!!!!
I know Drew, it is something I have to get past.
Kevin
Let's say your daughter gets a full scholarship to a college in another state. Will you cling on to her and not "set her free" all in the name of love? Or will you "set her free" in the name of love so she can have the space and opportunity to create a great life for herself?
And before you come back with a surface answer stop and think. Take a day or two if need be.
Kevin, have you ever thought about seeing a counselor?
I am seeing a C. I haven't seen her the past couple of weeks due to schedules and Christmas. Our next appointment is Tuesday January 5th.
Kevin
Let's say your daughter gets a full scholarship to a college in another state. Will you cling on to her and not "set her free" all in the name of love? Or will you "set her free" in the name of love so she can have the space and opportunity to create a great life for herself?
And before you come back with a surface answer stop and think. Take a day or two if need be.
I have thought about this many times in the past and came to the conclusion a long time ago that where ever she wants to get her education is fine with me as long as it is the best possible solution for her and her future.
Kevin
Again, you are allowing your W to control your thoughts and that is very clear seeing how you have obsessed and worried about what impact tending to your OWN finances would have on HER?
Reverse that. What impact does NOT tending to YOUR OWN finances have on you?
Bottom line.. why would you WANT to share finances with a woman that won't let you live in your own home even though she wanted out, sleeps with other men and has no respect for you? Think about that for two weeks and get back to me.
Exactly my point. Your W has told you multiple times in both words and actions that she thinks the best possible future for HER is to NOT be married to you.
If you love your W so much why not offer her the same thing you would offer your daughter as per your post above... "she is making the best possible decision as she sees fit for her future". Your W has done the SAME thing, you just don't like it.
Kevin,
She lives in the family home and you live in an apartment?
Kevin,
She lives in the family home and you live in an apartment?
Yes.
Kevin
If you love your W so much why not offer her the same thing you would offer your daughter as per your post above... "she is making the best possible decision as she sees fit for her future". Your W has done the SAME thing, you just don't like it.
It is not like I am stopping her CG. I may not like it, but there is nothing I can do to prevent it. I am just trying to be the best possible I can be for her and if it changes nothing, then it changes nothing. She will still make her own decisions regardless of how good or how bad I am. I disagree on the point that this is what is best for her and our kids for reasons I am not going to repeat. But she thinks otherwise and is entitled to her opinion and her own decisions. Just because I have not been the one to file doesn't mean I am standing in her way. She can file anytime she wants and move on all together. I am not stopping her. I am against it, but I am not stopping her.
Kevin
Because she was going to legally have me forced out of the house. Her parents own it and they were going to have me evicted if she wanted me out. The judge usually always sides with the person whose parents own the house when renting. I didn't really have an option there.
Kevin
Sure you had an option, you just chose not to take it.
Just so I am clear basically you will just wait until the process server shows up at your door and until then you will continue to do the same things?
This is NOT about who files for a divorce. This is about YOU and setting boundaries for you. What does your C have to say about boundaries? Have you and her come up with a plan/goals on how to overcome your fear of setting boundaries for you? If not, why not?
"Usually" decides? How did you determine that? A lawyer?
Sure you had an option, you just chose not to take it.
Ok, I am not sure what other option I had other than to leave instead of being legally forced out and making the situation worse.
Just so I am clear basically you will just wait until the process server shows up at your door and until then you will continue to do the same things?
I will wait until she files. As far as do the same things, no. I do occasionally try different things and sometimes they get different reactions.
This is NOT about who files for a divorce. This is about YOU and setting boundaries for you. What does your C have to say about boundaries? Have you and her come up with a plan/goals on how to overcome your fear of setting boundaries for you? If not, why not?
We haven't approached this subject. I guess I will bring that up in our next session.
Kevin
"Usually" decides? How did you determine that? A lawyer?
Yes, I went and spoke with a L in person and I was told that.
Kevin
I am pretty sure 25 could probably back that one up as I am sure it doesn't really vary from state to state on that one.
But I could be wrong.
Kevin
What do you do in counseling? If your counselor is not helping you learn how to find solutions then you need to find a new counselor. One can spend a lifetime in C'ing rehashing and talking about feelings and still be stuck because no goals are being created to find solutions to improve your life.
And yes, you did have other options regarding the family home but you were afraid to exercise them as you feared it would make things worse. You let fear stand in the way of possibly staying in the family home. The result? You live in an apartment.
Did you and your W have a clause in the lease to the house you were renting that states if she wants you out then you must leave? If you wanted to fight to keep your family in tact then why not take the gamble and present your case to a judge. If you were denied at least it was the LAW dictating your housing status and not your W. If you would do *anything* to keep your family in tact then it seems to me you would have tried every possible long shot to remain in the family home that neither you or your W own. As far as I know a landlord cannot evict one party due to a change in marital status. But you didn't. Because you feared it would make things worse.
What do you do in counseling? If your counselor is not helping you learn how to find solutions then you need to find a new counselor. One can spend a lifetime in C'ing rehashing and talking about feelings and still be stuck because no goals are being created to find solutions to improve your life.
Right now she is helping me define my goals. We are getting back on that January 5th.
And yes, you did have other options regarding the family home but you were afraid to exercise them as you feared it would make things worse. You let fear stand in the way of possibly staying in the family home. The result? You live in an apartment.
Ok CG. You will have to explain to me what my other options were then W's parents own the house and realistically, I could not have made the rent on my own without really struggling financially.
Did you and your W have a clause in the lease to the house you were renting that states if she wants you out then you must leave? If you wanted to fight to keep your family in tact then why not take the gamble and present your case to a judge. If you were denied at least it was the LAW dictating your housing status and not your W. If you would do *anything* to keep your family in tact then it seems to me you would have tried every possible long shot to remain in the family home that neither you or your W own. As far as I know a landlord cannot evict one party due to a change in marital status. But you didn't. Because you feared it would make things worse.
My W was the only one with her name on the lease. Other than my driver's license, I had no claim to the rental house. And her parents had already checked into it and found that they could have me evicted within 30 days. The L tells me the judge usually rules in favor of who evers parents own the house. I didn't see having much of a chance of staying in it much less the ability to make the rent each month on my own without really struggling financially. And yes to add to all of that, the situation would have only grown far worse and nasty.
Kevin
See, these are things I am asking you to think about to possibly understand the root of your fear.
If you and your W were married why was only HER name on the lease of a house you shared? It doesn't matter if her parents own the house or not... or it shouldn't. Even if she lived there alone prior to marrying you why didn't you ask for a new lease when you moved in that had BOTH of your names on it?
Why couldn't you afford the house on your own? Because you passed on a job and your W took it.
Both things happened while you were married. Your W has been running the show and you let her. You let her be the sole person on the lease in a house you both live, pay and maintain. You let her take the better paying job. She sounds like the man in the R and you the W. That is why she is just fine on her own. Even when she was married to you she was still the leader and not much has changed. IMO that is why she is just fine on her own and you are not.
See, these are things I am asking you to think about to possibly understand the root of your fear.
If you and your W were married why was only HER name on the lease of a house you shared? It doesn't matter if her parents own the house or not... or it shouldn't. Even if she lived there alone prior to marrying you why didn't you ask for a new lease when you moved in that had BOTH of your names on it?
W moved back to Texas ahead of me with my girls while I waited for my job to end. She wanted to get them into school on time. She had to show residence to get them in so her and her step FIL did a quick lease with her name on it. I don't know why she didn't include my name on it. I wasn't there to sign it, so maybe that had something to do with it. I never really gave it much thought with my name being on it or even thought to ask about it as D was never a consideration so I thought.
Why couldn't you afford the house on your own? Because you passed on a job and your W took it.
Obviously. No need to rehash this mistake as it has been the enabler to all of W's decisions since.
Both things happened while you were married. Your W has been running the show and you let her. You let her be the sole person on the lease in a house you both live, pay and maintain. You let her take the better paying job. She sounds like the man in the R and you the W. That is why she is just fine on her own. Even when she was married to you she was still the leader and not much has changed.
Yes, CG, I admit that my W wore the pants in the family for far to long.
Even when she was married to you she was still the leader and not much has changed.
I understand your opinion here and where you are drawing it from and it is hard to disagree. But I am living my own life and leading my own life.
IMO that is why she is just fine on her own and you are not.
I am fine. I am not where I want to be yet, but I am trying to change my career path to be better. With that more options open up for a house, car, things to do with and for my kids, retirement, etc.
Kevin
CG,
I know what you want me to do. You want me to take charge of everything in my life. Change my attitude. File for D on W and drop her like a bad habit. Move on and find someone who actually would respect me. Stand up and be someone worthy of respect. Have boundaries in place for me and be a man in every situation in life regardless of what someone else might think. Make my life a joy and success for me. Be the best dad I can to my kids and give them the best life possible.
Be charming and witty with a who cares attitude to protect myself. To grow and mature and realize I don't need anyone in my life. To live life to the fullest and take pleasure from my own choices in life. To not rely on someone else for my own happiness. To not rely on someone else to assist in problems that I can fix on my own. To be resourceful in every situation. To be a leader. To be confident in myself. To love myself and realize I am worth more than how my W treats me. To prove to myself that I can be everything I want to be regardless of what someone else says or believes.
Kevin
Set some boundaries and you will be much further along. You think "doing fine" is all about a house, job, car and retirement. It is not.
You just said your W wore the pants in the family for too long. She is still wearing them. It is time for you to wear your own.
Learn from your W. She is very good at setting boundaries. Off the top of my head here are some boundaries she has set in a very clear fashion:
I don't want you to call, text or IM me unless it is about the kids or money.
If you don't move out then I will have you removed from the home.
On Christmas she told you in a very civil way the only reason you were included in her family celebrations was for the children (co-parenting) and because your kids didn't want you to be alone (pity). She knows you are searching for any crumb so she felt the need to clearly spell out to you that the two hugs she gave you on Christmas meant nothing more than two human beings hugging on a holiday.
All I am attempting to do here is to exhibit to you that until you start setting boundaries and acting like a man and commanding respect and equality then things won't change.
I understand one parent needing to stay behind to finish a job and the hardships that can put on a family when small children, a move and a new school are involved. I also understand the need to meet deadlines for school registrations. However you allowed your W to take the lead on things that PARTNERS should be doing together. You can't change the past but you can learn from it. In the case of her just signing the lease you could have said to her..."W: I understand deadlines for establishing residency and school registrations for the children but I feel it's best to have both our names on the lease for OUR home.. go ahead and fax me the docs and I will sign them and fax them back right away".
That doesn't mean you are preparing for a divorce. It means you are telling your W you want to be equal partners with her when it comes to all parts of life. A big part of family life is the home you live in (and that home could be a rental house or a paper box) and right off the bat you were comfortable with not being a part of that due to a few administrative obstacles.
Yes, I want you to do all those things you stated above. I would love to see you do ONE of those things. I would be so, so proud of you because to me it would finally mean that you know you are worth it. Why on Earth do you think I still post the same things to you day in and day out?
Honestly, I could care less if you get divorced or not. The divorce at this point is so, so secondary as you have far more pressing personal matters that need to be tended to at once.
Yes, please do that list you posted. I am hesitant to think you might finally get it. I hope you do because I really do believe once you really "get" that list your life will become MUCH better (mine did!).
Ok. Ya, at this point it is just best to learn from past mistakes and make changes for the better based on knowing what the past mistakes were. I agree with you.
So at what point do I finally convince you and 25 for that matter since yall are my toughest critics that I am learning from my mistakes and applying the lessons to a better future?
It is when you see boundaries going up in a productive way and holding true to them?
Is it when I finally take action on my own and file for D and drop W?
Is it when I separate the final accounts and not care how it affects the situation?
Is it when you see my attitude change all together about my current situation into a new attitude of just who cares anymore and moving on without looking back at W and doing 100% for myself without any given thought to W?
Is it all of the above? Am I on the right track as to what it takes to convince you and 25 as far as what I am saying/asking? Not that I am doing it to convince you, just trying to acknowlege and assume this is what you are trying to get me to based off our conversations.
Kevin
Yes, I want you to do all those things you stated above. I would love to see you do ONE of those things. I would be so, so proud of you because to me it would finally mean that you know you are worth it. Why on Earth do you think I still post the same things to you day in and day out?
Honestly, I could care less if you get divorced or not. The divorce at this point is so, so secondary as you have far more pressing personal matters that need to be tended to at once.
Yes, please do that list you posted. I am hesitant to think you might finally get it. I hope you do because I really do believe once you really "get" that list your life will become MUCH better (mine did!).
Got it. Thanks CG.
Kevin
Ok. Ya, at this point it is just best to learn from past mistakes and make changes for the better based on knowing what the past mistakes were. I agree with you.
So at what point do I finally convince you and 25 for that matter since yall are my toughest critics that I am learning from my mistakes and applying the lessons to a better future?
It is when you see boundaries going up in a productive way and holding true to them?
Is it when I finally take action on my own and file for D and drop W?
Is it when I separate the final accounts and not care how it affects the situation?
Is it when you see my attitude change all together about my current situation into a new attitude of just who cares anymore and moving on without looking back at W and doing 100% for myself without any given thought to W?
Is it all of the above? Am I on the right track as to what it takes to convince you and 25 as far as what I am saying/asking? Not that I am doing it to convince you, just trying to acknowlege and assume this is what you are trying to get me to based off our conversations.
Kevin
It is when you finally get a clue and answer most of these questions yourself ;-)
The day will come, I suspect today & tomorrow isn't it but the day will come when you know what you must do.
You will act instead of react towards your wife's actions.
You will take the lead role in your own life.
You will lead yourself out of limbo.
You will realize that you can detach and still love your wife but know that you have to love yourself just as much and probably more for any of this ever to work.
You have to believe in your own personal value and invest in your self-respect to the point where you know when someone is disrespecting you and you know that you have to speak up instead of being passive aggressive and let people know that they've crossed a boundary, they need to backup and not do the same mistake again.
You have to learn that you need to let go of the people that don't value you or the relationship they have with you. In fact doing this makes them wake up and realize that you finally get it, you know what this is all about now. If they don't want to be with you but you still want to be with them and you convey this via oral and/or body language, they'll know it and just feel sorry for you and they definitely won't feel attracted to you. Marital vows have nothing to do with this, you've killed the attraction and you currently continue to do things that maintain those attraction switches in an "OFF" position. When you value yourself enough to detach and move on, then you will finally learn to start flicking those switches back to an "ON" position.
But for you, that won't be today or tomorrow but I'm thinking that 2010 will possibly be a good year for you to learn - in fact achieving clarity will be your new years resolution.
Good luck bro!
I feel our conversations would be far more productive if we both refrained from assuming what the other person is trying to convey. Mind Reading, assuming and speculation is not a good way to communicate. I am often guilty of doing that so I will begin by offering you an apology for any assumptions and speculations I put out there regarding your situation.
I am one of your "toughest critics" as you put it but I am also the last person that posts to you on a regular basis. Why do you think that is? I am not being a smart ass I am really asking you why you feel I continue to post the same things to you day in and day out.
If I have not made this clear perhaps this will help you out. I really don't care if you and your W get divorced or not. I also do not care who files for the divorce. At this stage I feel the divorce is very secondary and no, I do not feel divorce should be the answer but sometimes it is how things work out.
I would love more than anything for you to make decisions for you and not give a crap what your W thinks or how it impacts her. I would love, love, love that. I would heart it forever.
If you think the time and effort I have put in to posting to you since April of 2009 was to champion you ditching your W and filing for divorce then I clearly am a *very* poor communicator.
Remember when I told you about one of the very worst nights of my life? The night my H barged in MY house after I set a very clear boundary that he was no longer to do that? And because I didn't want to "make things worse" I didn't enforce that boundary. And the result was one of the most horrible nights of my life due to an argument between my H and I that was so vile and horrifying it is a miracle we are both alive to tell about it. And after he barged in, bullied me about waiving my rights to legal counsel and watching the clock so he could go meet OW I finally snapped in a very unhealthy way? Remember all that? What did you say to me after I shared that night? You said you were glad I put an end to that cruel behavior by my H by holding strong to my boundary (not letting him on the property anymore). You didn't worry about how my H felt, you just wanted what was best for ME! Did you ever stop to think maybe I want the same for you?
That is a good point CG about what I told you with regard to your sitch. I wasn't trying to mind read either. I was trying to make sure I was getting what you were telling me. Perhaps I did misread on thinking you wanted me to D my W. I apologize for that and any other mind reading I did.
I really am just trying to make sure I am fully taking in what you are taking the time to tell me. You are the last to post to me. I am certainly appreciative. But I fill like if I don't ackowlege what I believe you to be saying, I am not showing you respect for taking them time to help me and I also feel like I am not making sure I am fully understanding and getting what you are telling me. I want to be sure I completely clear on what you are saying and I am completely understanding it and taking it in.
So I try to reiterate or explain to make sure I am not missing your points. And apparently, I am missing some of them, so I am glad that I tried to reiterate what I thought was being said so that I could be cleared up on it.
I think I see what you are saying about not caring whether or not I divorce. You are saying that I have got to focus on me and changing my life and making the D or whatever that sitch may turn into secondary so I can fully function and live my life to the best it should be lived to.
Am I correct on this? No mind reading. Just trying to clarify.
Kevin
Thanks robx,
Acheiving clarity is definitely a goal of mine this year.
Kevin
We have an ice storm I guess coming to DFW this afternoon. That may end up canceling my sushi plans tonight. Darn, I was hoping for some good sushi and the company would have been enjoyable as well.
Kevin
Dont be a pansy. Pick up and eat in. Carpe Diem!!! GAL!!!
It's not like you're talking about an icestorm like in the movie the day after tomorrow.
Life happens while you're making plans. Always remember that.
Dont be a pansy. Pick up and eat in. Carpe Diem!!! GAL!!!
It's not like you're talking about an icestorm like in the movie the day after tomorrow.
Life happens while you're making plans. Always remember that.
I don't know if my lady friend will want to get out with her kids if the roads become bad. I have no problem eating in. I have food at the apartment. I don't think I will invite myself over to her place for dinner if she has to cancel. I will just eat something at home and apply for more jobs tonight if it goes that way.
Kevin
That is exactly what I am saying. Either way you have to feel deep down in your bones that you will be okay and have an amazing life with or without your W. I don't want to see anybody get divorced but sadly, sometimes that is how things go. It's not that I don't care if you and your W get divorced but as I said, I feel that is a secondary issue. In reality you are divorced even though you don't have a legal document stating such. You live in separate homes, share custody of the children and she is with other men.
Do you think I got to this point overnight? I didn't but you know that as I have been very open about how I got to this point. Getting to a "new point" often requires us to make *very* hard and terrifying choices for our own well being. Taking control of our own lives for our own emotional and physical well being does not mean we are championing divorce. It means we understand that at points in our life we have to be our own leader even if it feels scary and different. Sometimes in life we have to step so far out of our comfort zone we yearn for some sort of map to provide us with *some* direction.
My parents were married for 30+ years and my father had lots of problems. My mom was in marriage counseling and IC alone for 20+ years and my father refused to go. He would go months without speaking a word to me, my sister or my mom because he "didn't feel like it". Eventually my mom got to a point where she was under so much stress that her heart was no longer working properly and unless she made some changes in her life she would not have a life to live as she would be dead. If she was dead my sister and I would have been left with what? A dad that refused to get help for his drinking, rage and depression issues? Exactly how much longer was my mom expected to "stand" for her marriage? Until her heart failed totally and she was dead in her mid 40's? What is the limit? FYI, my mom was a dedicated Catholic her entire life and didn't believe in divorce either.
My mom didn't bomb drop either and even stayed around another year to work on herself and see if my dad would ever join in. I remember the day my mom took my sister and I out for coffee to tell us her decision and how she sobbed and felt like she was ripping apart a family. My sister and I were rather vocal that the family we had was not functioning in a way that made us comfortable at all and we were actually relieved some end was in sight. Granted we were not small children at the time but my sister was a young teen and I was in my late teens. E (my sister = E) and I both knew from a very early age something was terribly wrong at home and my parents did not function as other married people did.
I have spent close to two years of my life conquering every fear and demon inside of me that prevented my growth. It has been hard as hell, exhausting and all consuming. It has also been the greatest challenge of my life, the most empowering time of my life and it is my second chance.
Do you think it was easy for me just a few months ago to call my attny and tell him that my H took off on vacation with his GF (and her brother paid for it) and he didn't even respect me enough to NOT lie about and it was time to turn everything over to the courts as I was done? It was one of the hardest calls I had to make. But I matter and if nobody else thinks so I know I do.
Do you think I harp on you just for kicks? I don't. I try and challenge you the way I was challenged so you know you aren't alone in being afraid but if you can just knock that fear in the face your life will get better. You don't have to knock it all down at once but if you can just pick one thing and really beat the crap out of it (metaphorically speaking of course) the rest of the stuff won't be so bad. It might not be great at first but "not great" is better than "terrible", right?
You don't have to knock it all down at once but if you can just pick one thing and really beat the crap out of it (metaphorically speaking of course) the rest of the stuff won't be so bad. It might not be great at first but "not great" is better than "terrible", right?
Right. I guess I felt like trying to change my career for the better was a first step I could take to being proactive in my own life. I am trying to beat the crap out of that one. lol.
I thought trying to figure out and get a business going with my friends was also another good step in doing for my own life which I still intend to at least pursue and take a shot at.
And at times I think about filing for D and being done and walking away. I find myself feeling like if I do, then I am acknowledging that I failed. I feel like I if I do then I let my kids down, my M down, God down, and W down in that I couldn't be strong and stand in the face of this forever. And I keep having this verse pop in my head from the bible that says "Husbands, do not D your wife". That always pops in my head when I start thinking about doing it. I also have some bit of fear, ok, maybe great fear of spending the rest of my life with out my W being there by my side. Which I know is what you are trying to help me get past so I can live my life fully and enjoy it without fear of whether or not she is there.
But ya, I have got to take a step of some sort and beat it until it is completed and then take the next step. I am going to talk to my C about that. One step at a time and really focusing on it until it is completed.
I know I will adjust no matter what happens, I have just been resistant to it for many reasons which are known.
I try to think of myself and what I can do to have fun without my W, and then she pops back in my head again and I mentally and emotionally backslide in my mind. But I do honestly try.
I think changing my career and working on a business idea is a good step to helping take some of the focus off of what if with W. But there is more that I still have to face on my own and conquer.
It sounds like your mom made every effort possible to make that M work and she finally just didn't have anymore to give without risking her own health. I can understand that.
You also made every effort with yours and just finally had enough and had to look at your health also. I understand that to.
You also both came to the realization that you have more to offer yourself and life has more to offer than being stuck in a situation that was greatly bringing down yalls health and life.
What you overcame with everything you went through truly amazes me.
CG, I don't think I asked you how your Christmas was and I apologize for that. How was it? Did you have a good time? What all did you do?
Kevin
But for my goals, the M or whatever it is at this point has to be secondary for me to succeed at anything else and even a shot at that as slim to none as that is.
I am in agreement with CG,
Kevin
How about this... stop thinking about the divorce. Take it off the table for now. Instead start thinking of how you can achieve personal victories for you and YOUR life. In order to achieve personal victories we must set boundaries and goals.
I personally would LOVE to see you tell your W that you have decided to split all finances for 2010. I would love to read a post that you told her this in a calm, civil and respectful way and whatever reaction she had, had ZERO bearing on you. I would love to be around when you realize this small step does not push you closer to a divorce but pushes you closer to being an independent man who is more than capable of keeping his own financial house in order.
I still belong to an IRL divorce support group. Often times couples that reconciled come in and talk to us. The majority of the couples that reconciled that came back to share their journey (and many of them have been reconciled for years now) still have separate finances with very clear financial boundaries so finances don't become an issue and they can work on the "important stuff".
I am glad you want to have a better career and perhaps start a business. Right now you should look at those things as "gravy" because you have some really pressing issues you need to tackle before you can really focus on the "gravy". Learn to adjust your mindset, set boundaries, not worry about the impact your personal growth will have on your W and really embrace the notion of learning how to implement very basic life skills (using resources, seeking out solutions on your own, conquering your root fears and so on). Life cannot blossom on "gravy" alone. Address the "meat" of the matter first.
I had a lovely holiday, thank you for asking. Christmas Eve day I ran some last minute errands with my friends. Christmas Eve I hosted my mom, step dad, sister and brother in law (Christmas Eve is the night we celebrate in my family). I volunteered Christmas morning then spent some time calling my out of town family/friends. Christmas Day night I hosted a party for a few friends and my sister and brother in law joined in after they had dinner with my BIL's family. It was one of the nicest holidays I can remember. I felt happy and centered and things felt just right.
I find myself feeling like if I do, then I am acknowledging that I failed.
Kev, I go back to my earlier posts that you didn't understand. Again, this is a subtle control issue you have. You think that you can change the outcome of this if you just 'do' something, and your W notices, and she'll decide to come back.
However, It takes 2 to make a MR. One alone can not make a MR work.
You can acknowledge your failINGS, especially when it comes to your MR.
You make the changes to you, and for you, and fix what was broken on your side of the MR. If the MR still does not work out, it is not your failing alone, it is the combined failing of the 2 of you.
It's a subtle but marked shift in your perception and understanding that helps to break these chains that keep you in limbo and unable to move to make progress on yourself.
It's also empowering for yourself to get to that point.
I know you are slowly moving in the right direction, so don't think we don't notice, and why we continue to post to you. Keep working!
How about this... stop thinking about the divorce. Take it off the table for now. Instead start thinking of how you can achieve personal victories for you and YOUR life. In order to achieve personal victories we must set boundaries and goals.
I can do that. That is what I am trying to do with my C.
I personally would LOVE to see you tell your W that you have decided to split all finances for 2010. I would love to read a post that you told her this in a calm, civil and respectful way and whatever reaction she had, had ZERO bearing on you. I would love to be around when you realize this small step does not push you closer to a divorce but pushes you closer to being an independent man who is more than capable of keeping his own financial house in order.
That is going to be a big one for me. I am going to have to get up my nerve to do that one. But I will work on getting up my nerve for it.
I still belong to an IRL divorce support group. Often times couples that reconciled come in and talk to us. The majority of the couples that reconciled that came back to share their journey (and many of them have been reconciled for years now) still have separate finances with very clear financial boundaries so finances don't become an issue and they can work on the "important stuff".
That makes sense. Ultimately the accounts are not what is the important stuff.
I am glad you want to have a better career and perhaps start a business. Right now you should look at those things as "gravy" because you have some really pressing issues you need to tackle before you can really focus on the "gravy". Learn to adjust your mindset, set boundaries, not worry about the impact your personal growth will have on your W and really embrace the notion of learning how to implement very basic life skills (using resources, seeking out solutions on your own, conquering your root fears and so on). Life cannot blossom on "gravy" alone. Address the "meat" of the matter first.
I am trying to focus on the meat. You are right and you would definitely know since you are self employed.
I had a lovely holiday, thank you for asking. Christmas Eve day I ran some last minute errands with my friends. Christmas Eve I hosted my mom, step dad, sister and brother in law (Christmas Eve is the night we celebrate in my family). I volunteered Christmas morning then spent some time calling my out of town family/friends. Christmas Day night I hosted a party for a few friends and my sister and brother in law joined in after they had dinner with my BIL's family. It was one of the nicest holidays I can remember. I felt happy and centered and things felt just right.
That sounds like a great Christmas. I am glad it went so well for you. That is always good to hear CG.
Kevin
Kev, I go back to my earlier posts that you didn't understand. Again, this is a subtle control issue you have. You think that you can change the outcome of this if you just 'do' something, and your W notices, and she'll decide to come back.
There has definitely been that.
However, It takes 2 to make a MR. One alone can not make a MR work.
You are correct on this.
You can acknowledge your failINGS, especially when it comes to your MR.
You make the changes to you, and for you, and fix what was broken on your side of the MR. If the MR still does not work out, it is not your failing alone, it is the combined failing of the 2 of you.
It is a combined failing of the 2 of us. I have just hated to think there is nothing I could do to save it. But I also recognize from whatevery one has told me by trying to save it my own way, and continue to take gambles, it probably further slipped away.
It's a subtle but marked shift in your perception and understanding that helps to break these chains that keep you in limbo and unable to move to make progress on yourself.
It's also empowering for yourself to get to that point.
Yes it is and I have seen that in many on here.
I know you are slowly moving in the right direction, so don't think we don't notice, and why we continue to post to you. Keep working!
I am. Thanks.
Kevin
Okay, here is an idea and one I have worked very hard at in C'ing (it's so worth it!).
You said you are nervous about totally splitting the finances, right? So make that your "big" goal and put it aside for a minute. In order to reach that "big goal" (whatever the goal is) sometimes we have to set and reach several "mini goals" that serve as stepping stones. How can you begin to set "mini goals" in regard to splitting the finances so your "big goal" (in this case the big goal would be a 100% financial split) doesn't seem so scary? I am just brainstorming but what about starting with the vehicles/car insurance? Next would be credit cards and so on until you reached enough mini goals to be ready to tackle a "big goal". If you really are that afraid your fear will not just magically go away, you have to work on it and maybe you need to just break it down to less terrifying steps so you can really get a sense of how AMAZING it feels to overcome a fear by setting goals and reaching them.
My C and I worked long and hard on that very concept (we still do) and it really helped me get on track.
Take all these big huge gestures off the table and replace them with attainable mini goals that you can start TODAY so you can get a good taste of how awesome it feels to set boundaries for your own personal growth, create goals and reach them.
Now this might not be your solution but it is a solution. If you don't care for this solution why not put pen to paper and start brainstorming solutions?
I am done working for the day and about to shut down my computer for the night. Then I will walk my dog, go to yoga class (pending I can still fit in my yoga clothes as I have been an eating machine this holiday season), come home and make red beans and rice then watch all the Bones I recorded because Agent Booth is a sexy beast.
I will make a deal with you. If you post your list of mini goals that will bring you closer to reaching one big goal I will do the same. I have some pretty huge things I hope to achieve in 2010 and I know the best way to really achieve the BIGGIES is to break them down, step by step, month by month.
My C is an Indian man and the way he says "biggies" is hysterical.
Cool? Deal?
Okay, here is an idea and one I have worked very hard at in C'ing (it's so worth it!).
You said you are nervous about totally splitting the finances, right? So make that your "big" goal and put it aside for a minute. In order to reach that "big goal" (whatever the goal is) sometimes we have to set and reach several "mini goals" that serve as stepping stones. How can you begin to set "mini goals" in regard to splitting the finances so your "big goal" (in this case the big goal would be a 100% financial split) doesn't seem so scary? I am just brainstorming but what about starting with the vehicles/car insurance? Next would be credit cards and so on until you reached enough mini goals to be ready to tackle a "big goal". If you really are that afraid your fear will not just magically go away, you have to work on it and maybe you need to just break it down to less terrifying steps so you can really get a sense of how AMAZING it feels to overcome a fear by setting goals and reaching them.
My C and I worked long and hard on that very concept (we still do) and it really helped me get on track.
Take all these big huge gestures off the table and replace them with attainable mini goals that you can start TODAY so you can get a good taste of how awesome it feels to set boundaries for your own personal growth, create goals and reach them.
Now this might not be your solution but it is a solution. If you don't care for this solution why not put pen to paper and start brainstorming solutions?
That is a good solution CG. Taking it one account at a time is a little easier than going full force on them combined at once.
There are a couple of things at play here just to lay it out.
W has the van that is not being driven along with the title on our auto insurance. She also has her new vehicle on the insurance. She has full coverage on both. I have my Camry on it which is only liability. So I pay half of the insurance bill each month knowing this.
Then there is the cell bill. It got racked up over $300 this past mont and is normally closer to only $200 a month. So I will be paying half of that until it is split.
There is one credit card that I had originally agreed to let W keep that is in my name as long as payment was made each month. I still have to ask her how much she wants to pay on it each month as she had maxed it out. It is only a $1,600 credit limit, but none the less, she really needs to apply for her own card now and pay this one off so I can close it out as I have my own credit card now just for me that I pay off every month.
W is paying the kids and both of our health insurances at a ridiculous rate through her agency, but that is about to end with her job ending and I am trying to get a job where I can provide insurance for the kids. The insurance bill according to her is about $800 a month and rarely gets used if ever. Also the deductible on it is somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,000 to $2,500. So we never even touch the insurance itself as we don't go through that many expenses. I don't know what all she has covered on that plan, my guess is everything. I never wanted this plan and she took it anyways. My contribution to it if I did would be $400 a month plus splitting copays, etc.
I also pick up the C bill twice a month for the girls. W doesn't contribute to this. That comes to $200 a month.
What I have tried to do is look at the differences in our pay to this point and offset that with letting her handle the health insurance, me handle the C and us splitting the rest since technically I could ask for a percentage of child support even having the kids 50% of the time because of the differences in salary. prior to all of this happening.
The other thing is W was making additional money on the side that she didn't tell me about, meanwhile telling me she had no money for bills until she realized that I pulled some 401k money to pay off my credit card. Then she came out with it. But she didn't tell me how much and I didn't ask. She knew I had gotten a check and asked if I made some money off investments and I said a little yes.
So that is what is financially left for us to work out.
So as I go through this with her, there is a chance the health insurance may come up and then I have to bring out that I haven't gone after a percentage for child support from her. That could be an interesting conversation. Of course she could point out that I haven't picked up my own on that as well to which she would be right. But I have also covered bills one month that she did not and I didn't asked to be reimbursed for it. Again, I also pick up C and pay the extra money on auto insurance and the cell bill which I did not rack up these charges this month but will have to pay half anyways since I did not act sooner on splitting the accounts.
In the end, I guess it all works out. But I am thinking like you said CG, one account at a time. That would probably go much smoother and I could slowly work things that way.
Kevin
Deal. And enjoy your night and thanks.
Kevin
Ok - last post. You have laid out all your finances (insurance, credit card, cell and so on). Now choose ONE thing to split. Just one. Do not try to make things "even" or even worry yourself about who pays more because that forces you to look at too much at once. Accept the fact you might be paying more on one thing and your W might be paying more on another. Accept the fact you or your W might have to pay a penalty for early termination. Yes, that sucks but in the long run it will be worth it.
Now promise me you won't dwell on that big list and you will choose ONE. Pick the smallest thing. Don't even look at that list again until you have rectified the smallest line item.
I know this works because when I was at my lowest point and the mere idea of facing an entire day was too much to even fathom, I had to make lots of mini goals just to get through the DAY. If I can do it, you can too. Step by step, day by day, mini goal by mini goal.
Now promise me you won't dwell on that big list and you will choose ONE. Pick the smallest thing. Don't even look at that list again until you have rectified the smallest line item.
I promise.
Kevin
I leave for 9 hours and come back and there are 9 NEW PAGES! Wow Kev! Gotta get a soda and come back and read!
Last night I went out to dinner with my lady friend. It was enjoyable. Then I went over to a friends house after and had a good time. I ended up getting home much later than expected and discovered I lost my apartment key. I slept outside in my car and then this morning drove over to W's house to get my spare key so I could come back and get a shower and change clothes for work. W felt bad for me as I had locked my car key in my car the previous night.
The apartment office didn't open til 9am so I really couldn't sit around and wait for that.
I'm having real good luck with keys this week.
Kevin
HEALTH & WELL BEING GOALS:
1. By Jan. 10, 2010 schedule all monthly dr's appt's, labs, diagnostic testing, C'ing appts, yoga classes for all of 2010
2. 3 yoga classes per week, 3 cardio sessions per week for all of 2010.
3. Research bicycles/helmets for purchase once winter is over.
4. Purchase new sneakers for Spring
FINANCIAL & ADMINISTRATIVE GOALS:
1. Make appt. with tax advisor before Feb. 15th for consult on how to file taxes for 2009 (married filing single or joint). If my hit is minimal for filing married-separate I will let exH know I have decided to file on my own. I would prefer to file separate however that decision will be guided by the advice I get from the tax advisor.
2. By Dec. 31st 2010 my goal is to have a full 12 months of living expenses saved. Currently I have 4.5 months saved in addition to my long term savings.
3. Give H a deadline to reimburse me for legal fees and credit card bills of Jan. 20th or further legal action will be taken at his expense. Our Agreement was finalized and accepted by the courts on Nov. 17, 2009 and he has had ample time.
4. Make will with attny by March 1, 2010.
BUSINESS GOALS:
I prefer not to post these for public view.
HOUSEHOLD:
1. Refinish bed frame and redecorate master bedroom.
2. Complete the HUGE task of sorting through boxes and boxes of photos from my childhood and scan them. There are so many I plan to do a batch each month.
3. Request exH commit to a firm date to pick up the last remaining pieces of furniture he has here and remove his items from our storage shed. I am not running a free storage facility for wayward spouses. He will claim he has nowhere to put them but tough.
4. Pick up entertainment center from Mom's house and refinish
5. Organize all my digital photos (this is about 50% done)
FUN STUFF:
1. Sign up for Latin ballroom dance class my neighbor and I are taking when he returns from vacation on Jan. 18th.
2. Research plane fares and create budget for the four trips I plan to take this year
3. Neighbor and I made a pact that each month we would try something new. Feb. we are visiting an indoor "rock climbing" facility to give it a try (can you wear high heels while doing this?
4. Renew passport (I guess that is administrative)
5. Continue volunteering with Lupus Alliance and begin preparation for the major fundraiser that takes place in the Fall of 2010. Continue my Meals on Wheels route once per week. My route is very small and takes so little time I don't know why everybody doesn't do this!
LIFE ALTERING:
1. Decide once and for all if I will make the move to CA.
Embrace the blessing of turning 35 this year and enjoy the hell out of 2010!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok - I posted a short list that I will focus on for the next month or two.
That is quite a list of goals. I have some work to do on mine. I wouldn't have thought of breaking it all down like that.
Kevin
I have been working on weekly/monthly/long term goal lists for some time now. I understand the first list can seem overwhelming.
That being said....
There is not ONE short term goal that you can think of that you can begin working on in the next few days that is for you and YOU only? Not one?
I don't know what "2010" means as per your last post.
I hope one day you realize how powerful and productive you can be if you simply make *some* or *any* effort to organize your mind and really make a plan on how to accomplish things. Forget "things", how about one?
The whole idea of this is to be accountable to yourself and force yourself to get on the path to progress. If you post some goals (and they should be ever evolving because life cannot be planned to a "t") then maybe we can check in with each other from time to time and (A) celebrate achievements we each make and (B) help keep each other motivated when necessary.
I won't hold your hand though. I did the work on my goal list and now you need to. Happy New Year! Happy New Decade!
I won't hold your hand though.
I am not asking you to hold my hand. I appreciate the support we can give each other. I will have my goals posted by this weekend.
Kevin
My top is blown.
I got to W's house after work to pick up my girls. I went in, she had the place looking spotless. She was dressed up. She had the maids come by. OM was going to be arriving shortly and is spending the rest of the week and weenend there. She is introducing them to the kids tomorrow as they are all going bowling.
I'm done. She can have her D. I am more than pissed off right now. I want her out of my life. I don't ever want to see her or hear from her again. I don't even want to know she exists anymore. I am going to have to work something out when exchanging the kids so I no longer have to see her or here from her. I can make any emergencies or other stuff strictly via email. I am splitting the accounts all at once. If she doesn't file next week, I can just go ahead and file the week after. I don't care what the church says. I'm done. This is hopeless.
I can't believe she has the nerve to introduce this freakin low life loser to my kids.
I give up. She wins.
Kevin
Calm down.
Inhale deeply and exhale.
I am about to have dinner with my sister but will try and pop back in later to see how you are.
Do not let anger dictate your actions. Let good sense and what is best for you and your kids dictate your actions.
I know this hurts and it is okay to be hurt and angry for a bit but then you need to make a plan.
(((KEV)))
This sucks and I am sorry. Agree with CG...just sit on things and not make any decisions yet or fly off the handle. In reality this is what has been happening all along, just not right under your nose.
For the record I am supportive of something being done either way. If your W is openly dating and bringing OM around your kids then she needs to own it and file for D. Can't have the best of both worlds.
Hang in there! I will be checking in on you tonight as well!
Kev,
I know how you feel, and anger is part of this. You need to apply the 48 hour rule here, or at least 24 hours.
Take a walk. Go exercise.
Acknowledge and accept that you are angry, and work through it before you decide to do anything first.
I am thinking about sending a text to W saying I don't think it is in the kids best interest for you to be introducing them to OM tomorrow.
After all, regardless of how she views the situation, her kids are seeing their married mom with another guy and she is now involving our kids in her affairs which the whole thing is highly inapropriate and a terrible example to be setting for the kids to see.
She doesn't even have the decency to wait until she is at least divorced for the kids sake? Why should they have to witness and be a part of this continued demolishing of their family and have it thrown right in their faces when the D hasn't even been filed for?
Kevin
She doesn't even have the decency to wait until she is at least divorced for the kids sake? Why should they have to witness and be a part of this continued demolishing of their family and have it thrown right in their faces when the D hasn't even been filed for?
Kevin
Because she has been allowed to have multiple affairs up to this point with no consequences really. She knows you will probably be mad, but will get over it and be back to trying to win her over. Take the weekend to get your ducks in a row and figure out what YOU want to do now.
I am thinking about sending a text
Call her Kevin.
Be calm. State your concern. Do not raise your voice or swear. Say Goodbye. Hang up.
I made the call. I told W calmly that I don't think it is in the best interest of the kids to be getting introduced to OM tomorrow. W said he is just a friend and nothing more. I said ok. I said the kids had mentioned that he was going to be there. She said she told me that a week ago. I said no, you told me that he was coming into town and that you are your lady friends were going to be having dinner with him. You didn't say anything about OM joining you and the kids for bowling. She said yes she did.
The bottom line is she didn't. I would have had a problem with that right off the bat. I found out from my kids that he was going to be there. Neither time when it came up with her did she once say he was going bowling with her and the kids.
That being said, again she claims strictly friendship. This is where the believe nothing you hear and only 50% of what you see applies. If he is just a friend, why was her house done up spotless today with maids and all. Why was she dressed up so nice? And if he is just a friend, why do the phone records for months now show the 2 talking every day, first thing in the morning before work, through out the day and late at night? This is more than a friend. Why did she make the effort to make him a home made blanket? But she can deny it all she wants. And there is nothing I can do about it. But I spoke my peace.
If he really is truly only a friend, then I may have botched up any progress that was being made. But I don't for a second think he is just a friend. I have fallen for that one before. You don't talk to a friend of the opposite sex day in and day out morning, afternoon and evening on the phone if it is just a friend. And why is a male "friend" staying with her?
I still don't really agree with it. But whatever. I was calm on the phone and it was a short phone call.
If he was only a friend, I am sure it will come back to haunt me. If he wasn't a friend, it won't have mattered.
Kevin
Ok Kev, you made the call, and sounds like you did OK.
You spoke about how you feel civilly, and then ended it. This is ok.
If he really is truly only a friend, then I may have botched up any progress that was being made
This doesn't matter. You need to stop acting from a place where your actions are based on what you think your W thinks or will do, which you actually did by calling and expressing how you felt.
Now. Put the 48 hour rule back on. Don't harp on this, and that is not the going to be the hard part.
The hard part for you is going to be to stop the story telling in your own mind. You are already doing it in the rest of your post. That will drive you to make bad decisions going forward.
Kev,
Sorry, but he ain't no "friend." Look at your own post for all the reasons why.
Let this be a lesson for you Kevin in Dallas
This was my first post to you:I'm thinking what a great evening it was. And it really was. Well, of course, W tells me she has a "friend" coming back from Santa Fe that is taking her out for her birthday dinner and she is booked all week. Right away I know who this friend is. Its original OM. She slept with him for his birthday and I'm pretty sure he is returning the favor.
She told you she was going to get laid on her birthday, and you are still talking about her. GET SOME SELF RESPECT.
You know what to do.
I hate to say it but if I were in your shoes I would file for divorce. You can atleast talk to a lawyer and get some kind of restraining order keeping other men from coming into contact with YOUR kids.
Hi Kevin.
She's lying to you.
At some point, you have to respect yourself enough to simply let go of those people who don't value or respect you!
I know it hurts, and you want it to be different. It is what it is. Everyone here is on your side.
Everyone here cares about you. You gotta start caring about YOU too! Let it go, friend.
AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO RESPECT YOURSELF ENOUGH TO SIMPLY LET GO OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T VALUE OR RESPECT YOU!
We all have to do this!
You gotta start caring about YOU too!
Man, that is right on target.
Kev, you gonna continue to take what she's dishing out to you or have you had enough? Time to punt buddy.
AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO RESPECT YOURSELF ENOUGH TO SIMPLY LET GO OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T VALUE OR RESPECT YOU!
We all have to do this!
This is going on a poster for my wall!
AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO RESPECT YOURSELF ENOUGH TO SIMPLY LET GO OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T VALUE OR RESPECT YOU!
We all have to do this!
This is going on a poster for my wall!
Me too!
You gotta start caring about YOU too! Let it go, friend.
I got this from somewhere a couple years ago - I"m pretty sure it was by TD Jakes. I read it regularly:
LET IT GO!!
There are people who can walk away from you. And hear me when I tell you this! When people can walk away from you: Let them walk.!!!
I don't want you to try to talk another person into staying with you, loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you, staying attached to you. I mean hang up the phone. When people can walk away from you let them walk. Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left. The Bible said that, they came out from us that it might be made manifest that they were not for us. For had they been of us, no doubt they would have continued with us. [1 John 2:19]People leave you because they are not joined to you. And if they are not joined to you, you can't make them stay.
Let them go.
And it doesn't mean that they are a bad person it just means that their part in the story is over. And you've got to know when people's part in your story is over so that you don't keep trying to raise the dead. You've got to know when it's dead. You've got to know when it's over. Let me tell you something. I've got the gift of good-bye. It's the tenth spiritual gift, I believe in good-bye. It's not that I'm hateful, it's that I'm faithful, and I know whatever God means for me to have He'll give it to me. And if it takes too much sweat I don't need it. Stop begging people to stay. Let them go!!
If you are holding on to something that doesn't belong to you and was never intended for your life, then you need to......LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to past hurts and pains ......LET IT GO!!!
If someone can't treat you right, love you back, and see your worth.....LET IT GO!!!
If someone has angered you ........LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge......LET IT GO!!!
If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction......LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets your needs or talents....LET IT GO!!!
If you have a bad attitude.......LET IT GO!!!
If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better......LET IT GO!!!
If you're stuck in the past and God is trying to take you to a new level in him......LET IT GO!!!
If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship.......LET IT GO!!!
If you keep trying to help someone who won't even try to help themselves......LET IT GO!!!
If you're feeling depressed and stressed .........LET IT GO!!!
If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is
saying "take your hands off of it," then you need to......LET IT GO!!!
Let the past be the past. Forget the former things. GOD is doing a new thing!!
LET IT GO!!! Get Right or Get Left .. think about it, and then
LET IT GO!!! The Battle is the Lord's!"
How are you today? I know it's New Year's Eve but if you can at least let us know how YOU are feeling that would be great!
I know deep down you know this - your W's "friend" is not just a friend. I am sure the call you made to her was difficult but I am glad you made it. While I don't have children I think when two co-parents are trying to raise kids it's important that BOTH parents remain on the same page when it comes to things like this.
Anger has its place in this process and once the initial waves of anger calm down it can be a great motivator to get you to the next phase.
I know for a very long time you feel many of us have been very hard on you. Our stance was really to perhaps show you that you DO deserve respect and if you don't start setting some boundaries you will never get it. You have lots of people here to support you because we ALL know once we really "get" what has to be done (be it setting boundaries, dropping the rope, the legal process or whatever action applies) support is essential as none of it is easy.
I understand you were very angry last night but your W didn't win. I think you know that though. I am not sure if I ever shared this on the board but it seems fitting. When my H and I went to court I was sitting on a bench in the main hall while my attny was in chambers. There are several courtrooms/chambers in the family court building. All of a sudden I saw a man, woman and three tiny children emerge from one of the rooms. The woman was crying and holding one of the children. The man, also holding a child, was yelling saying "F*ck you, I WON" to his W and the third child who could not have been more than 5 was walking alone with a look on his face I will never forget.
What I presume to be a social worker came and two of the kids starting screaming they wanted to go with mommy, they wanted to stay with daddy but the other kid just stood there with such a dazed and puzzled look on his face. He looked so confused and frightened I just wanted to scoop him up and hold him.
So, no, nobody wins in this type of situation. I can bet those three kids will never forget that day for the rest of their lives and I never had the urge to punch a stranger in the face until that day. What exactly did that man win? Maybe a few bucks, a house, a car? I won't ever know what he "won" but I am pretty sure those three precious children will have that day etched in their brain forever.
Instead of focusing on what you "lost" please try and focus on what you are in the process of and *will* obtain... self sufficiency, self respect, improved communication, being a great father, a deepened sense of spirituality/faith and the tools to create a great life for yourself no matter what.
Splitting the accounts was never about you pissing your W off or not. It was about you taking a stance that you will not assist her in anyway financially to continue having relations with OM(s) if she is married to you. She didn't worry if you were pissed off about what she was doing. No, splitting the accounts is simply an "action". What really counts is what the action represents. And I think you know the deeper meaning is all about boundaries and self respect.
Check in if you can and I hope you have a Happy New Year!
If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is
saying "take your hands off of it," then you need to......LET IT GO!!!
What an excellent post, Welding, the entire thing.
Kevin... You need to detach and firmly.
Tell her that this is not acceptable and you won't stand for it.
Then go really dark. Like a black night, dark.
Hi all,
I am more calmed down this morning. But at the same time I am now trying to plan what to do next and it has nothing to do with reconciling. I have written that off at this point.
I understand the 48 hour rule. However, I don't have 48 hours to make a decision on placing a boundary when it comes to my W exposing my kids to OM later on this afternoon.
At this point, this is strictly about my kids and no longer about W.
She obviously didn't care last night about what she is doing. And yes, I know that this no "friendship". She is slowly and methodically trying to work him into their lives. That is how she operates. She also has a proven track record of lying and A's. She also knows that if she admits he is OM, I can use that in court against her and go after full custody. It blows me away to think she is stupid enough to lie and think she won't be found out or think I will let it slide. Maybe it is because in the past I have let to much slide. That is changing from this point on.
So my question is... do I go ahead and inform her that if she exposes our kids to OM today that I will be filing for D as well as an immediate restraining order against him? Or do I wait and let her hang herself and use it in court to go after full custody of my kids and stick her with supervised visits? She obviously has no regard for their well being by doing this to them and I know the C would back me up on this 100%. Or do I give her this one exposure and then file the restraining order and then go after full custody in court?
Yesterday, 9 phone calls between him and her ranging from 7:20 am til after midnight.
Tuesday, 5 phone calls
Monday, 7 phone calls
It goes on and on and this doesn't include the text messages.
Oh this is interesting. Christmas eve she was on the phone with him for 48 minutes until she got to my place at 2:45 am. Then right after leaving at 3:40 am she immediately gets on the phone with him again for another 47 minutes.
Point is, as much as she talks to him and as much work as she put into the house yesterday before his arrival as I have not seen the house look that spotless and done and with maids in a very long time. This is no "friend". She has apparently been talking to the kids about him. With him staying there and her other lady friends are going to dinner with them one night and now SIL is possibly going bowling with them all today. Again, here I am left out of knowledge only to discover it myself.
I call BS. That is fine. She can do what she wants with her life. But when it involves my kids, then you involve me.
She has to really think I am an idiot.
Kevin
This is going to get nasty from here on out. I might as well get ready for the ride.
Kevin
This is the email I an considering sending to W this morning.
"I call BS on OM being "just a friend". If you expose him to our girls today, I will file a restraining order against him blocking any contact from him to our girls. You really should have checked with the counselor first before trying to attempt to methodically work him into their lives at a point and time that is not good for them."
Kevin
You are not an idiot but your W knows you let everything slide so she does as she pleases. I am SO SO SO proud of you that you are putting an end to this. It's time.
IMO you are under NO obligation to share your legal plans and unless an attny is telling you otherwise I would not tell her about filing until you have filed. As a mere courtesy you may want to let her know you have filed and she can expect to be served on <insert date here>. I would, under NO circumstance, let her know the grounds you filed under, the monetary compensation or settlement you seek or anything about custody. Let her learn all of it when she is served.
Again, unless legal counsel is telling you otherwise I would split the finances before you do anything. You can simply tell your W that you have decided to handle your own finances and the start of a new year is the perfect time to do that. Work off that big list you posted the other day.
I would say nothing else about the OM. You said what you needed to say to her y'day on the phone. Give her NO further info and let her think the "old Kevin" will just tolerate it and go with HER plan. Again, this is just my opinion.
Do not accept anymore of her crumbs. If she attempts to explain herself tell her you are not interested in hearing about it. Let her know you will not tolerate or be a party to enabling her crappy behavior any longer.
Do research and find an attny that specializes in the rights of men. Read every review and public record you can find. Meet an attny armed with questions, facts and figures.
I would tell her nothing. Not a thing. You are not making threats, you are taking action and if she chooses not to behave as a W then you are under no obligation to tell her your plans.
I would not send that e-mail. You said what you wanted to say to her y'day. She does not respect you so she will just blow it off. Too bad for her, she was given the opportunity to adjust her plans with the children and OM and she chose not to. So, just proceed as you need to.
Kev,
CityGirl is right. Don't tell your W anything about filing or that you will plan to. She will find out at the right time for YOU.
Don't send. Time for Kevin to take back control. She is going to do what she wants anyway no matter what you say.
Thanks CG and givingitmyall,
I will not send it then and will not say anything further. I will start my planning at this point and let her hang herself in front of the judge.
I will also start the research you suggested CG on dad friendly attorneys and so forth.
Kevin
I agree SO2, I was needing some advice this morning after thinking about what to do next and I got some good advice.
I appreciate it.
Kevin
I know the laws of Texas and NY are much different but one thing my attny had me do was make a list of items my H could present to the courts against me if push came to shove. Obviously we can't mind read but my attny said even if it seemed like a small thing to really brainstorm and put pen to paper so we could be prepared.
In your case be sure to mention to your attny that you did drink often, you passed on a higher paying job and let your W earn the bucks, you went to Florida leaving your children to be cared for full time by your W and so on. I am not trying to rehash the past but divorce can get ugly and I highly doubt your W will back down and pull out all the cards she has against you.
This is not about your W hanging herself. This is about Kevin starting a new life where he has self respect and the opportunity to flourish as an individual and father.
Those are good points. I had started contemplating the chances of what she is going to throw out towards me as well so I can be prepared. I will be discussing all of this with the L.
This is not about your W hanging herself. This is about Kevin starting a new life where he has self respect and the opportunity to flourish as an individual and father.
You are right.
Kevin
I am proud of you. I really am. I think all of us are proud of you.
It is very, very important you don't stew on this all weekend. Dedicate xx number of hours to doing what you feel you need to do for the attny and spend the rest of the time on you or your girls.
Accept the fact that this will be stressful and quite frankly a bit frightening but in the end you will prevail.
I am liking what I am reading, Kevin.
I am proud of you. I really am. I think all of us are proud of you.
It is very, very important you don't stew on this all weekend. Dedicate xx number of hours to doing what you feel you need to do for the attny and spend the rest of the time on you or your girls.
Accept the fact that this will be stressful and quite frankly a bit frightening but in the end you will prevail.
I am liking what I am reading, Kevin.
Thanks CG, I intend to enjoy my evening tonight with my friends and not think on this. Tomorrow or this weekend I will be spending some time pulling plans and research together, but also enjoying my time with my girls.
I appreciate yours and the others advice yesterday and today and I hope you and everyone else have a very happy new year.
Kevin
Good idea to figure out what she can use against you (alcohol, etc) and make sure you have a plan in place for that. For the alcoholism issue i would have my behind in AA every single day, get a sponsor and make it known that you are not passive about this. If there is a hint of an alcohol problem in court a judge wants to see you being proactive about it and not in denial. Not saying you are Kevin, but if you are an admitted alcoholic that is not working a recovery program it doesn't look good.
Good idea to figure out what she can use against you (alcohol, etc) and make sure you have a plan in place for that. For the alcoholism issue i would have my behind in AA every single day, get a sponsor and make it known that you are not passive about this. If there is a hint of an alcohol problem in court a judge wants to see you being proactive about it and not in denial. Not saying you are Kevin, but if you are an admitted alcoholic that is not working a recovery program it doesn't look good.
SO2, that is a real strong point. Time to get my butt back in there.
Kevin
Good idea to figure out what she can use against you (alcohol, etc) and make sure you have a plan in place for that. For the alcoholism issue i would have my behind in AA every single day, get a sponsor and make it known that you are not passive about this. If there is a hint of an alcohol problem in court a judge wants to see you being proactive about it and not in denial. Not saying you are Kevin, but if you are an admitted alcoholic that is not working a recovery program it doesn't look good.
SO2, that is a real strong point. Time to get my butt back in there.
Kevin
Well, you know I am on the opposite side of the coin with the alcohol issue. I know you are nothing like my exh (thankfully
) but I know what the courts want to see.
So my question is... do I go ahead and inform her that if she exposes our kids to OM today that I will be filing for D as well as an immediate restraining order against him?
no. you have not learned in 1 year. you never say anything you just do. you now have reason enough to become the WAS. walk away without saying a word. it will leave her confused.
Oh this is interesting. Christmas eve she was on the phone with him for 48 minutes until she got to my place at 2:45 am. Then right after leaving at 3:40 am she immediately gets on the phone with him again for another 47 minutes.
oh well. we were teling you in the past it was over. now you have proof. BIG F'ING DEAL. Kevin is all that matters, when will you begin to understand that?
She has to really think I am an idiot.
she doesnt care kevin. She doesnt think of you as anything other than her ex-husband.
This is going to get nasty from here on out. I might as well get ready for the ride.
DONT BE AN IDIOT. Never be nasty, mean or vindictive. Word gets around. You are already known as the most compassionate guy around. Now be known as the compassionate guy with strength, confidence and self-respect. They will be beating on your door for a piece of you.
This is the email I an considering sending to W this morning.
NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING! you have sent enough I love you letters and I am done letters already. They mean nothing.
Make it interesting. you asked me a while back if i was serious. Yes I am Kevin.
I wouldnt waste my time if I wasnt. Read Michele's essay on WAWs, they sat back for years planning their escape.
Now, you need to make a plan. Get OUT and enjoy life. A cheating spouse is not worth depressing over.
Most of all, Make sure she has a good paying job before you divorce her.
That is important for your short term future.
Do I need to tell you, or have you realized that you should be going to that birthday party tonight?
Meet her girlfriends. Find out her real intentions!
Do I need to tell you, or have you realized that you should be going to that birthday party tonight?
LOL. I am not going to the birthday party tonight. I have other plans with friends I am looking forward to spending time with.
All your other advice is well noted.
I can't believe I am going forward with this, but dang it, enough is finally enough. I can't keep sitting around waiting for some glimmer of hope to change here. It is no longer worth it and now my kids are being drawn into this mess.
I didn't argue with her last night when she said he is just a friend. I just said ok, knowing she was full of sh*t. As far as my kids know, he is just a friend. They don't suspect anything more. She is sneaky. She is thinking introduce him as a friend to them, build the R and then low and behold how great would it be to have him as a stepdad? Ya mom, he is a great guy.
I know exactly how this one is being planned out. All of that is irrelevant though.
I'm checking into the website Fathers for equal rights in Dallas at the moment.
Kevin
Don't speculate or you will drive yourself crazy and it will take your focus off what needs to be done.
The only facts you have right now are (A) he is visiting this weekend and staying the the marital home (B) your W has plans to go bowling with OM and the children and (C) the cell/text records. Anything further speculation is a waste of your mental energy and time. YOU MUST DETACH.
I don't care if you have to physically sew your lips shut. Do not say a WORD to your W about ANYTHING. Do not send her *any* texts or e-mails - tie your hands if you must. Consider any contact you have with her as ammunition to be used against you.
I know this is going to be hard to hear but there were not any glimmers of hope in a very, very long time. You wanted to see glimmers so you accepted any crumb. I am glad you decided not to allow your W to lead you around on a leash anymore. It's no way to live and solidify an amazing future for you and your girls. And you certainly don't want your girls to follow in your W's footsteps. Be the better example by being civil, respectful and strong. It is an absolute thing of beauty to see you finally getting on this path.
Don't speculate or you will drive yourself crazy and it will take your focus off what needs to be done.
True and I will not be speculating further. I don't care what she does at this point. I only care about how my kids are affected.
The only facts you have right now are (A) he is visiting this weekend and staying the the marital home (B) your W has plans to go bowling with OM and the children and (C) the cell/text records. Anything further speculation is a waste of your mental energy and time. YOU MUST DETACH.
I'm detached at this point. Last night was the final nail in the coffin for me.
I don't care if you have to physically sew your lips shut. Do not say a WORD to your W about ANYTHING. Do not send her *any* texts or e-mails - tie your hands if you must. Consider any contact you have with her as ammunition to be used against you.
I am going strictly no contact. And I agree. She has been keeping everything to use against me. She let that be known sometime ago. I won't further enable that.
I know this is going to be hard to hear but there were not any glimmers of hope in a very, very long time. You wanted to see glimmers so you accepted any crumb. I am glad you decided not to allow your W to lead you around on a leash anymore. It's no way to live and solidify an amazing future for you and your girls. And you certainly don't want your girls to follow in your W's footsteps. Be the better example by being civil, respectful and strong. It is an absolute thing of beauty to see you finally getting on this path.
I agree, I was grasping at crumbs for far to long and there was never anything there. I was holding out hope for something that was just not there. I will be the better example. This is all stuff I am needing to hear this morning to help me make the best decisions for how to proceed from this point on.
Kevin
Now I won't tell you to go to the corner anymore
We all have our rock bottom. Hell, you know all about my rock bottom. The good thing about rock bottom? No place to go but UP!
Hell, go get on a bull for New Year's Eve!
I wouldnt waste my time if I wasnt. Read Michele's essay on WAWs, they sat back for years planning their escape.
I actually have read this article more than once. And it is true.
Now, you need to make a plan. Get OUT and enjoy life. A cheating spouse is not worth depressing over.
This is what I am doing.
Most of all, Make sure she has a good paying job before you divorce her.
That is important for your short term future.
That won't be an issue. Her career path is set. She should be sitting pretty the rest of her career.
Kevin
Now I won't tell you to go to the corner anymore
We all have our rock bottom. Hell, you know all about my rock bottom. The good thing about rock bottom? No place to go but UP!
Hell, go get on a bull for New Year's Eve!
LOL. No bull for me tonight. But I am still waiting to see you come to Dallas and get on that bull. lol.
Yes, no place to go but up at this point. I am done being at the bottom. Life sucks at the bottom as we all know.
Kevin
W called my phone twice a bit ago. But didn't leave a message. Couldn't have been that important.
Not calling her back.
Kevin
If I ever come to Dallas I will! But then you have to take me to dinner (save up, I like expensive stuff
Oh, and no white socks!!
I have a friend that is so prim and proper. When her sister got married they went to a bar that had a bull. My friend hardly ever drinks and she had a few glasses of wine. The somehow convinced her to get on the bull and they took a picture while she was riding it and her arms are all over the place. In the background is a HUGE photo of Johnny Cash giving the finger. It is one of the funniest photos I have ever seen in my life.
Ok - enough about this BS! Time to wrap up the crap portion of the day and enjoy New Year's!
DONT BE AN IDIOT. Never be nasty, mean or vindictive. Word gets around. You are already known as the most compassionate guy around. Now be known as the compassionate guy with strength, confidence and self-respect. They will be beating on your door for a piece of you.
Steve,
What I meant is I expect this to turn nasty from her. I will maintain my composure and dignity. But I fully expect her to go nasty at this point as I proceed with this.
It just won't surprise me to see her go that route. I am fully preparing for it.
Kevin
If I ever come to Dallas I will! But then you have to take me to dinner (save up, I like expensive stuff Oh, and no white socks!!
I have a friend that is so prim and proper. When her sister got married they went to a bar that had a bull. My friend hardly ever drinks and she had a few glasses of wine. The somehow convinced her to get on the bull and they took a picture while she was riding it and her arms are all over the place. In the background is a HUGE photo of Johnny Cash giving the finger. It is one of the funniest photos I have ever seen in my life.
Ok - enough about this BS! Time to wrap up the crap portion of the day and enjoy New Year's!
I agree. Happy New Year everyone.
Kevin
Even if it gets nasty, you can rise above it.
I'm proud of you too.
Happy New Year!
Even if it gets nasty, you can rise above it.
I'm proud of you too.
Happy New Year!
Thanks SG,
Happy New Year to you also.
Kevin
Let 2010 be a new beginning for you and all of us!
Let 2010 be a new beginning for you and all of us!
Ditto to that.
Kevin
Hang in there Kev. It'll get better for you eventually. It may get nasty, even real nasty, enroute to better things. Persistence and perseverence are omnipotent.
Hang in there Kev. It'll get better for you eventually. It may get nasty, even real nasty, enroute to better things. Persistence and perseverence are omnipotent.
Thanks antlers. The same for you buddy and Happy New Year to you.
Kevin
I contacted an attorney that was recommended to me. Waiting to hear back. I will be contacting more as well.
Kevin
When you start firmly standing up to W and not let her cake eat anymore she will get really nasty. Too bad, so sad! I got duped again...tried to see the best in exh and its all for a reason and for him to continue to cake eat. Starting over NOW....!
When you start firmly standing up to W and not let her cake eat anymore she will get really nasty. Too bad, so sad! I got duped again...tried to see the best in exh and its all for a reason and for him to continue to cake eat. Starting over NOW....!
Not a problem from this point on. I will jump over to your thread and see what happened.
Kevin
I have been reading your situation for quite awhile waiting patiently for "this time"...God has finally opened your eyes and now you can see clearly what many precious people how been trying to tell you. You will look back at your situation Kevin, and thank God for it. You are going to be a stronger person through this trial, and you will also be able to help other people in a similar situation.
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal,and to kill, and to destroy: I am dome that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly John 10:10. Satan can't steal, kill or destroy your peace unless you give it to him.
As you enjoy your daughters, friends and focus on Jesus, God will be glorified in the end. Forgive your W, give this entire situation to God and move on to your new beginning in 2010.
God Bless You
Thanks ManofGod34 and a Happy New Year to you.
W just called again, and did not leave a voice mail. I didn't answer and again will not be calling her back. I am not sure why she keeps calling if it is not important enough to leave a voice mail.
Kind of annoying really.
Kevin
W just called a 4th time but still no voice mail.
I am looking forward to getting out of here and enjoying my evening tonight. woot woot!!
Time to bring in the NEW YEAR!!!
Kevin
Isn't it?
Remember this the next time you want to txt or call your W for something, how she has been seeing it.
However, stay Dark for now, my man. Your going to do alright.
Dear Kevin,
For many reasons, I haven't posted to you in awhile - though I have been following along from time to time.
It seems like progress is being made, I'm proud of you, and for those who have hung in posting.
Happy New Year and God Bless You.
Stacy
How was your evening? Hope today starts a whole new chapter of your life! Stay strong.
My evening was great.
W called 5 times yesterday not once leaving a voice mail. I never called her back. She then called again this morning and finally left a voice mail. She said on her voice mail that it is ridiculous that I am not answering her phone calls and she had things she wanted to ask me yesterday and also was wanting to know when I was going to be getting the kids.
I called her back a couple of hours later and asked when she would like to exchange the kids. She said 4. I said ok. She then asked how my new years eve was. I said it was great and that I had a lot of fun. She said hers kind of sucked and they ended up at a country bar as her brothers W was wanting to meet a friend there who ended up being drunk and the whole thing sucked. I said ya, sounds like it did suck. Mine was great. She asked me to tell my friends hi. She doesn't know that they are totally against her and have no interest in hearing from her. I said I will be there at 4 to get the kids and got off the phone.
They had been friends of ours for 9 years and they are disgusted with her choices.
Anyways, I get there at 4 to get the kids. The kids start getting their things ready and W starts talking to me about the kids and their week and day. Finally I said that sounds great and started walking off to help D12 bring her stuff out. So I get the kids in the car and W asks me to come over for a minute out of the kids hearing range. I'm thinking great, what now.
So I go over to her and she proceeds to tell me that OM was with them and that it went really well and reiterated that he is just a friend. At that point I told her I didn't think it was appropriate. And she said to have a friend there? I said guys. I said I wish you would have talked to the C before doing this, but that she is going to make her own choices. She got mad and started to walk off. I said have a good night and I got in the car and left. Apparently OM was with them yesterday and today. And W just continues to lie to me to cover her rear on this.
Truth be told, it bothered me that she still lies to me and is inserting this guy into my kids lives without any regard to how it will affect them and without even checking with the C first. But the C has already addressed this so W is trying to play it off as a friend since she knows showing the kids a R right now would not be good for them. I know she was mad that I was not agreeing with her that there is nothing wrong with this.
I will continue to stay dark and work on plans and research.
Kevin
Kevin,
I was just checking out for tonight, but wanted to drop a line after reading your latest post.
Now THIS is what I have wanted to see from you! You did well, my friend. You did well.
How did you feel afterwards? I know I have felt very good when doing things like this when they come from a place of knowing what is right for YOU. It's important to acknowledge and accept the feelings you have, both good and bad, so wanted to point that out by asking.
I will continue to stay dark and work on plans and research.
I know this is tough, but continue to do this. It's your time to work on you and focus on kids now.
Just an FYI,
I was positive and upbeat until she pulled me aside at the end. But even then when talking to her I was calm. She was basically looking for approval from me on this and I was not going to give it.
Now she has me blocked on IM again. lol. I saw that she is on D12's IM and not on mine. To funny. I love how that game works with her. She will unblock me when she has something to ask again though. But I might just go ahead and block her from here on out.
She can have the option to text me or email me. Though I would prefer email. It is easier to keep a record.
Kevin
Now THIS is what I have wanted to see from you! You did well, my friend. You did well.
How did you feel afterwards? I know I have felt very good when doing things like this when they come from a place of knowing what is right for YOU. It's important to acknowledge and accept the feelings you have, both good and bad, so wanted to point that out by asking.
Quote:
I will continue to stay dark and work on plans and research.
I know this is tough, but continue to do this. It's your time to work on you and focus on kids now.
iwantittowork,
Thanks. I feel like I am taking control back of me and that is really all I have control over and I acknowlege that and accept it. And it also feels good to know I can be in charge of my own life and not let her control it.
Believe me, I am continuing to do this. She is getting mad about things and I am letting her get mad. It isn't changing my decisions.
Goals will be posted probably tomorrow.
Kevin
Now THIS is what I have wanted to see from you! You did well, my friend. You did well.
How did you feel afterwards? I know I have felt very good when doing things like this when they come from a place of knowing what is right for YOU. It's important to acknowledge and accept the feelings you have, both good and bad, so wanted to point that out by asking.
Quote:
I will continue to stay dark and work on plans and research.
I know this is tough, but continue to do this. It's your time to work on you and focus on kids now.
iwantittowork,
Thanks. I feel like I am taking control back of me and that is really all I have control over and I acknowlege that and accept it.
Believe me, I am continuing to do this. She is getting mad about things and I am letting her get mad. It isn't changing my decisions.
Goals will be posted probably tomorrow.
Kevin
Kevin, I agree with IWITW. I am really happy to see you take this action. It's way past time. But not too late.
Keep it up.
k4,
I don't have time for a big thing. Just wanted to warn you off the "pay ahead of time fee" to a head hunter. I'll send you an email about the pitfalls of that later this week or next if you want. It's just not done much. You don't pay upfront...head hunters get paid by companies who pay THEM to FIND YOU and that's how it's done in 98% of the times. The other times, when a potential employee hires a firm, they only pay after they're placed in their new job. And I do not for a second believe anyone who says they have a "guaranteed placement" of 100% in ANY economy, let alone this one. NO way. Did you research this company and any reviews online? That's not adequate for research but it sure beats just hearing their sales pitch. Please, contracts for personal services that are like this, are very hard to enforce so once they get your money, they have no motivation to keep working for you. And you'll have virtually no legal recourse...they'll say you blew the interview or you were too picky (because you didn't want to work in Thailand, or do work for which you are not suited, etc) they'll say they TRIED, per the contract and that's that...
Agents in Hollywood get paid only when they get you work. The big tip off here in LA, about a rip off fake agent is when they charge you an upfront fee to "manage' and package and market you and make you a star --all are the hallmarks of a SCAM....(kind of like promising you they're SURE they can double your income as your guy promised...all without more schooling or training??? Amazing...and too good to be true).
NO ONE I know paid up front...even the companies that hire head hunters (like the ones who hired my h and me), only paid the head hunters after they hired us and we paid nothing.
Don't take another short cut K4, it's a pattern...do the research and this pro-marriage/survive divorce site, as wonderful as it is, does NOT constitute "research" for financial or career planning. Checking the crowd's gut feeling is one thing, but I fear you don't take the next steps or follow through on the suggestions so these posts end up being "what you do" as far as research --and that's just dangerous.
None of us are wanting you to take our advice and run with it, we're just tossing out ideas and opinions...you have to weed thru the views and ideas and dig deeper & really do the work of your life.
Good luck & Happy New Year Kevin.
j-
Wow! Kevin you are doing so well! Keep it up.
You are doing really well!
The only suggestion I have is to no longer discuss OM or what the C says with your wife (in terms of the children meeting the OM, your W is aware of how everybody feels and chose not to respect the feelings of the father of her children and a trained C). You made the call a few days ago to let her know you were not pleased so she is aware of your feelings. Any other talk about it with your W will only result in further justification by her and/or an attempt to draw you back to being "old Kevin" who will always let everything slide.
If she asks to speak to you in private I might give her one of the following responses:
Is it about the kids or money?
I really need to run, please go ahead and e-mail me and I will get back to you when I am able.
W, I made my feelings very clear about the OM and the children when I called you the other day. I have decided not to engage in further conversation about the matter.
Let us know how it goes with the attny!
What CG said...re: contact with x w and any OM...
You made your case (i.e., your feelings are known). The c made the case about what it'd do to the kids...And your wife chose to ignore your feelings and the professional opinion of the c...
Now that you made your case clearly, the stronger position for you is - Don't keep making it. HER Choices speak for themselves...so let them echo on...
(For future purposes, make your points from the standpoint of being the father of the children & not as her ex h or her "still legally m" h, b/c she has no regard for that "status" or your ego, but at some level she knows you do retain rights as the DAD and by thinking about your kids- you're doing the right "Dad" thing....whether that induces guilt in her - or admiration for you, or neither, matters little now. So you Just make it all about what's best for the girls. That matters to the ones who count the most...the girls. (And Him).
So what is left to beat about this dead horse topic? Harping on it will definitely backfire on you. Let her choices seep. You can't change them - so why argue them again? You look so much stronger and she looks so much weaker, if you "rest your case" with the point you made and the C as an ally and now let your ex w look in the mirror knowing that she rationalizes things frighteningly well....Otherwise it's like her nagging you not to drink. Sorry if the analogy is close to home but I'm tired and it's late...so, Once someone says, "hey, IMO, you're an alcoholic and you have to stop drinking or you'll hurt someone..." if they hear you, and still drink, there's nothing left to say or do so let it go.....it will haunt them more than it would if they spent their time arguing and defending and deflecting...or it won't haunt them at all. Which means your continued harping would not haunt them, but YOU'D have spent all those precious hours on earth...harping and nagging...and she won't change one iota for all that.
Frankly Kevin, this year, you have better & more important and more joyful things to do with your energy and loving heart, and whatever else you discover and build in yourself. So on that note...
Good luck,
J
ok Kevin, you busted her, called her on it, and ruined her new years. I'd like to call this step one, but you have taking so many steps backwards and very few steps forward, its a hard call, it maybe step one it maybe not.
Now this is Divorce Busting. And he is just a friend. They are all friends. and New Years Kisses and handjobs are OK among friends.
Crap they talk non-stop Kevin. them the best friends. So you can say and do anything and stand up for yourself once and for all, but it honestly wont mean $hit to her and wont phase her in the least untill she knows exactly how you felt the other night. Do you understand?
Do you understand?
Do not let next week go back to normal, quoting the bible and telling us how you are standing for your marriage while your wife is lying on her back for it. Show us what you have learnt about divorce busting.
Now this is Divorce Busting. And he is just a friend. They are all friends. and New Years Kisses and handjobs are OK among friends.
I had to laugh at this friendship thing. I saw emails between exh and another woman that is only interested in a physical relationship with exh...she is living with another man. She wrote him the nastiest emails detailing exactly what she would be doing to him and with him..I mean every single detail! Now he has no idea I could see his emails. When I asked her about this woman he said she is just a 'good friend'. OW in my situation was also a 'good friend' when she was having sex with him when I was pregnant!
Good friends!! Wow!
As I am sitting here watch the Dallas Cowboys play, I thought I would go ahead and post my goals.
Save enough money to buy a house.
Book a flight to Jacksonville Florida for a few days to see some friends.
Study and hunt for a new better job in which I will not be paying anyone fees.
Continue to update my wardrobe.
Continue to make myself stronger.
Improve my prayer life with myself and my kids. I have started teaching them the rosary.
Become stronger as an individual.
Come up with a formal schedule and plan to meet with my friends on our business idea.
To get back to dancing lessons and improving to a next level.
To find enjoyment in myself, my kids, and God's will for my life.
I did talk to the L. I won't be able to afford a custody fight and things could swing against me if I take it on.
I don't think God is leading me to do that either as He seems to be closing the door off to that one. I did a lot of praying about it and basically asked God to stop me if it is not what he is wanting me to do because I was at my wits end with this. He is managing to stop me.
P.S. I have read everyone's posts. I have done a lot of thinking this weekend. My anger has subsided. I will not show any kind of approval for W's continued actions. I have not rehashed the subject with her and I won't.
Last night I discovered I accidently used the bank card to her account. I pulled out the money to replace it from my account as well as some extra money I owed her for D7's Christmas present and I left it on her table at the house as me and the girls had to run by there while she was not there to get a few things for the girls. I sent her a text explaining where the money was and why it was there. I didn't hear back from her. I hadn't heard from her since the conversation on Friday.
Today she called while I was in mass. I called her back after wondering why she would need to call since I have the girls with me unless she was just wanting to talk to them. She told me she wanted to let me know there is a circus in town tonight and we can get free tickets to it. She thought the girls would enjoy it. Then she said she would go, but she will be working tonight. I said thanks and we have a lot to do to get ready for the school week again and we probably won't make it. She said ok. Then she reminded me that D12 has choir starting back up again downtown tomorrow. I said we will see if we make it as my bosses are in town this week and expecting us to stay late. She said yes that I had warned her of that and to let her know by 5 if I can't so she can take her. I said fine. I still do not have anyone that can fill in for me when I have to stay late as far as picking up my girls and bringing them home. I am really stuck on that one.
This is going to be an extremely busy week for me and I am not looking forward to it. It always seems like my bosses show up and want us to work late when I have my girls.
Kevin
Crap they talk non-stop Kevin. them the best friends. So you can say and do anything and stand up for yourself once and for all, but it honestly wont mean $hit to her and wont phase her in the least untill she knows exactly how you felt the other night. Do you understand?
Do you understand?
I think she knows exactly how I feel about it Steve. I couldn't have been more obvious about my feelings on that when it came to involving the kids. And she knows how I feel about her being with OM which is why she is trying to pull it off as a friend. Either way, she would have to be an idiot to think she is fooling me on any of this.
I think I got my point across when I didn't bother answering her phone calls after she announced it and then we had the conversation after.
Kevin
Do not let next week go back to normal, quoting the bible and telling us how you are standing for your marriage while your wife is lying on her back for it. Show us what you have learnt about divorce busting.
You have a way with words Steve. I will do my best to properly DB.
Kevin
You get the Cowboys game?! We don't get it today....we got the Chargers instead
Both of us have hopefully turned a corner. I have been turning the same corner for a few years. Lets hope you only turn in once!
ok Kevin, you busted her, called her on it, and ruined her new years. I'd like to call this step one, but you have taking so many steps backwards and very few steps forward, its a hard call, it maybe step one it maybe not.
It was step one to properly DBing.
SO2, I am hoping this is finally DBing the right way going forward as well.
Kevin
It was great how you finally stood up for yourself, however because it was a result of your anger and frustration, you still haven't understood what proper DBing is.
It is doing things on YOUR terms. Not just reacting to what she does. You've gone through this before and I hope you do change.
One question though...are you still DBing or are you looking to D?
Stuck,
I never wanted a D. I don't want a D. I just began to think I had no other choice once she started introducing my kids to her "friend".
I would prefer to efficiently DB. That is my goal. I don't have the money to go after a custody fight and there is no guarantee I would win. Infact, it could swing the other way. I stand to lose big time even if I could come up with the money. I think that is pretty much God closing the door on that one.
Ultimately, I just want to DB the heck out of this and eventually win my W back and my family back. That is what would be best for all of us in the end.
I did hit great frusturation last week. There is no question about that. And it did finally push me to stand up to W. I will continue to try and find a balance of standing up to her when necessary and trying to DB to the best of my abilities.
With God's help and good advice and obtaining goals one step at a time, I can do this. There can't be anymore laying down for just anything for W anymore. She did hit a ground that I will not lay down for anymore.
She kept stepping over every single line because I was allowing her to. This one I finally stood my ground. But I was not rude to her or anything like that. I was firm but nice. She got the message.
Kevin
Apparently W is taking my girls to their C session tomorrow after work since she will have them tomorrow night. Should I let the C know ahead of time that W has chosen to introduce the girls to her male "friend" 2 days in a row so she can decide whether or not to adress it with the girls or W?
Kevin
Who says it has to be a custody battle? Are you thinking about full custody? Unless she objects you can make your custody and visitation the same as what you have now. So unless you think that by you filing for D will piss her off and push her to try and take your girls, then I don't see what you have to worry about.
The whole thought process of the custody battle was to try and protect my girls from having men brought in and out of their lives. Not a very stable way to grow up. Plus they don't need to be part of their married mom portraying this kind of behavior to them and involving them. Yes, I was looking at full custody. She wouldn't get pissed if I filed for D. But she would if I pursue full custody. That is when it would turn nasty by her.
Kevin
But that is not in the plans. Obviously there is a bigger picture to this. At some point, a greater good will arise out of this.
Kevin
The whole thought process of the custody battle was to try and protect my girls from having men brought in and out of their lives. Not a very stable way to grow up. Plus they don't need to be part of their married mom portraying this kind of behavior to them and involving them. Yes, I was looking at full custody. She wouldn't get pissed if I filed for D. But she would if I pursue full custody. That is when it would turn nasty by her.
Kevin
Unless Texas laws are different than California laws there isn't much you can do about the men coming in and out of her life unless they are drug dealers or hurting the kids. The courts couldn't care less about infidelity or other relationships...sad but true.
I know. Truly sad the state of the moral system in this country today. Judges want to be called "Your Honor" yet don't give us a reason to honor them with their decisions.
Kevin
I'm tired today. I am having to adjust back to schedule with the kids this week and my bosses being in town this week. I did apply for a job last night. I will try and apply for more tonight.
Kevin
Kevin,
Your backsliding big time again...
Ultimately, I just want to DB the heck out of this and eventually win my W back and my family back. That is what would be best for all of us in the end.
This will never happen. Take this off your goal list. Until you do, you will continue to be stuck in this rut.
Should I let the C know ahead of time that W has chosen to introduce the girls to her male "friend" 2 days in a row so she can decide whether or not to adress it with the girls or W?
Again, you are attempting to exert control here where you have none.
STOP IT! Stop trying to manipulate and control what your STBXW is doing!
If you have your own C, and setup your own C with your kids, then you can bring this up with them, not by inserting yourself into what you STBXW is doing.
The whole thought process of the custody battle was to try and protect my girls from having men brought in and out of their lives. Not a very stable way to grow up. Plus they don't need to be part of their married mom portraying this kind of behavior to them and involving them. Yes, I was looking at full custody. She wouldn't get pissed if I filed for D. But she would if I pursue full custody. That is when it would turn nasty by her.
Again, stop reacting to what your STBXW is doing, and trying to control this. You have no control over what your STBXW does, and whom she brings into her kids life, or hers, and you are not 'protecting' your kids by trying to exert control over this.
This is one of the key reasons why you are going to be getting D to begin with, as I can see the pattern you have of trying to control things in this fashion.
Don't tell me you don't see this, or that you don't understand why people think this way about you, because I do understand it, as I lived it in myself for years as well.
Go read "No More Mr. Nice guy" and "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and really look at yourself in context of this, until you understand it. DB should not even be in your vocabulary until you do, and work on yourself.
Sorry for the 2x4, Kevin, I am, and I wished you would just stop and work on this, and not focus on your STBXW.
You need to see it, understand it, and really work on this in yourself before you can make much further progress.
Beat me to the punch ........
Kevin,
You can politely ask your W not to introduce the girls to other men. It is very fair for you to want to protect your girls. As you know, you can't make her, but I don't think a polite request is out of line. She may not like it or even agree not to do it, but you can ask.
Bring it to the attention of the C, so she knows. If the girls want to discuss it they will.
I last posted on page 10 and you are on pg 53! I don't have time to catch up. I just ask that you not post every single little thing. Sometimes you just have to be in the moment, bud.
iwantittowork,
I am not trying to control W. I was trying to think about how I can protect my girls from this. It has nothing to do with controlling her or her choices. I have no say in what she decides to do with her life. I don't try to have a say in it. But I do try and watch out for my girls and what they may be thrown into and if there is any way I can prevent them being affected by it. As a parent, that is my job.
As far as talking to the C. Again this is not about control so much as what do I do now about what my W has chosen to involve my girls in and how to best aleviate further incidents/unwise choices/etc involving my kids.
You may not understand this or agree with this and that is fine. But I will be watching out for my kids and exploring where I need to to best protect them from this mess any way I can.
This will never happen. Take this off your goal list. Until you do, you will continue to be stuck in this rut.
You just issued me a straight challenge. I intend to post this on my wall as motivation. I will learn and I will succeed. And it will have nothing to do with trying to control or manipulate my W. I will not stop looking out for what is in the best interest of my kids. It doesn't matter whether W agrees or you agree or anyone else agrees. What matters is that I will take whatever precautions I can to protect my kids against this mess regardless of someone else's opinions. I won't budge on doing whatever I can to protect them. I will certainly seek advice on how best to approach it, but I will not stop looking out for their best interests.
I appreciate what you are trying to say, but I don't necessarily see eye to eye with your latest post today. I fail to see how looking into options to protect my kids from a huge mess is me backsliding. If I didn't care what was thrown their way and try to prevent more damage being done to them, I wouldn't be acting as a true parent to them.
Kevin
There is nothing I cannot accomplish this year. I will not let situations or circumstances hold me back any longer. This is a new year and goals will be met.
This IS my year to succeed at what I want in life. The new year and the challenge is on.
Kevin
One of those goals includes not being reactive anymore, but proactive.
Kevin
Kevin,
You can say whatever you want, but your actions shout louder than your words.
Again, I understand that you want to protect your kids, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, there are things that go beyond 'protection' and this is one of them.
As far as talking to the C. Again this is not about control so much as what do I do now about what my W has chosen to involve my girls in
You already expressed to you STBXW how you felt about this. End of story with her in that respect. If you need to continue to work on this, then you work on this with your C and your kids, not by trying to insert yourself into the C session between your STBXW and your kids.
My direct challenge to you was to go get those books, read them and understand them, while looking at yourself at the same time in context of them.
Kevin,
Your next two posts are good, but make sure the focus is on you and your kids, and start there, and not from a starting point of anger.
Your reacting to my post with anger, and that is not there intent. I just want you to open your eyes to other possibilities that exist, even from your own perspective!
One of those goals includes not being reactive anymore, but proactive.
Kevin
How are you going to be proactive? We have already discussed that there isnt much you can do about the OM's in W's life with your kids. You have told her how you felt..that is about all you can do.
So what can you do proactively besides that? To me, you had a better mindframe when you were pissed at her. You were ready to end the M because of the OM and the kid situation. Now you are backing off on that and standing for your M again.
Getting a D does not mean that maybe down the road if both you and W change and both want the M you cannot R. But sitting there passively waiting and watching her live her life like a single woman with multiple OM's doesn't seem like the right thing to do..even for your girls.
What would you do if say down the road one of your girls was in the exact same situation with her husband...he is having affairs, living separate as a single man, hurting your precious daughter every single day, and on and on...what would you tell her? I bet you would tell her to get out and D...he doesn't seem like a guy to be married to and he likes his life the way it is.
Kevin, she isn't waffling. She isn't looking back. She is moving on as a single woman without the consequences of having to go thru D.
Sorry to be harsh..I know how you feel. I live it everyday.
Your reacting to my post with anger, and that is not there intent. I just want you to open your eyes to other possibilities that exist, even from your own perspective!
iwantittowork,
I realized after I wasn't thrilled with your post and decided at that point I have to include not being reactive as one of my biggest goals to accomplish this year which has to start today.
Ultimately I am not trying to control my W. I am just trying to figure out how to best protect my kids from something I consider to not be in their best interest.
I guess I felt like you were coming after me for trying to watch out for my kids. And that didn't sit well with me. Perhaps I misread what you were saying.
Kevin
The whole thought process of the custody battle was to try and protect my girls from having men brought in and out of their lives. Not a very stable way to grow up. Plus they don't need to be part of their married mom portraying this kind of behavior to them and involving them.
LOL. They are just friends Kevin.
You have no evidence to the contrary. You are only speculating on
HER behavior. A little fantasy in your head perchance?
What right do you have to tell your wife what friends
SHE can introduce or can't introduce to
HER children?
NONE.
Who are you to decide what is a stable way of life or what behavior your wife should portray in front of
HER daughters?
HAVE YOUR DAUGHTERS EVER SEEN YOU DRUNK OR OVERHEARD YOU CALL YOUR WIFE A WHORE?
Your wife is not suppose to be happy or move forward with
HER life?
WHY NOT? Because you Cannot? and your daughters are suppose to suffer because of your need to control other peoples lives.
Be a man, kevin.
Kevin,
This is a new year. Time for a new mind set. You say you are not trying to CONTROL. You say how you are not OBESSED with your CAUSE to get your WAW and Family back. But YOU are. You have to STOP being in DENIAL about YOUR ADDICTIVE/OCD Personality. Stop trying to CONTROL other people and other things. YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF and for some people with ADDICTIVE PERSONALITIES SELF-CONTROL is NOT always POSSIBLE.
I think you did great in your interaction with your WAW. When she started talking about her "friend" being around the girls. You should have cut her off in a RESPECTFUL yet WITH BOUNDARIES way and say "W you know how I feel about introducing our girls to OM. It will just hurt and confuse them. If YOU CHOOSE not to RESPECT my requests that is YOUR CHOICE..." PERIOD. You state YOUR BOUNDARY and that's it. No more CONTROL NO MORE THREATS!!! Show her you are a man. Not a mouse!!!
It's a good sign she is telling you these things. She is either trying to make you jealous or still hurt you. Regardless of the motivation she is still ATTACHED to you. Whether it's ATTACHMENT through LOVE or HATE it is still ATTACHMENT. It will piss her off even more if you DONT REACT EMOTIONALLY and just say "You know how I feel...PERIOD"
It works. In fact I know it works because my X called me over the weekend after realizing that she was possibly loosing custody of her daughter if I continued with my court proceedings and said she was now realizing all the mistakes she has made and is regretting doing what she did. She went on to say that she RESPECTS me for the way I fought for our M and our D4. She wished things could be different considering I am seeing someone that LOVES and RESPECTS me NATURALLY and is willing to FIGHT for me. Which is ulimately what everyone here wants.
It was hard to hear the sadness in her voice, but I tried for a long time to get her to see what I was saying. I had reached a point where I could not ever TRUST her again and that was my NUT. It was a hard decision, but one I needed to make for my SELF-PRESERVATION.
Just keep DETACHING and STATING your BOUNDARIES. The rest will all work itself out.
God Speed. PMA
Kevin - if ever a D is filed, I dont think it wise to try for full custody. The expenses in such a battle are huge. I believe that since you are already coparenting with a schedule, most any court would try to maintain the status quo for the kids.
After a D, it would be hypocritical to not allow your XW to bring new men into her (and your kids) life. I am sure you would want to eventually date and meet someone new to fall in love with if you were to D. And you would not keep that person secret from your kids.
Introducing kids to the OM hits home with me. My W wanted to introduce the kids to him (who she called "just a friend") and I insisted that she not do it. She agreed. But she went ahead anyway secretly behind my back. I found out about it from my kids. The kids witnessed their mother sucking face with OM. OM even was kissing my daughter. My W crossed a line and there needed to be consequences.
I struck hard and fast (filed for a D with a protective restraining order). I did not show mercy in the beginning. There was always time for that later if she came around but I kept that big gun loaded and cocked. She was pissed at first, but she admited various times that she liked the strength I had. From that point forward, it was up to her to decide whether she valued our marriage and to prove to me that she wanted back. Even though she eventually asked me for another chance, I had moved on. To this day, I dont regret my choice.
My XW married the OM who was "just a friend" a few weeks ago. Things are cool now and we coparent very well.
If ever you do file for a D, you dont use that as a mechanism to coerce your W back. You do it for your own self respect and dignity. You do it because your boundaries have been crossed. You do it because living in limbo has reached a point where you refuse to tolerate anymore. You do it when you realize that you could never fully regain the trust and love for your spouse.
I echo what PMA and Kerry said, as my sitch was/is very similar.
You will never move forward until you change your attitude and motivation.
You have no evidence to the contrary. You are only speculating on HER behavior. A little fantasy in your head perchance?
I don't have definitely proof. You are correct. But it definitely looks like more than just friendship when you take into account the amount of daily phone calls and time spent on the phone at all hours, him having met W's family and friends, him coming up for a visit and meeting and spending time with W and my girls 2 days in a row. And as is always said on here, believe nothing you hear and only 50% of what you see when it comes to the WAS.
It's a good sign she is telling you these things. She is either trying to make you jealous or still hurt you. Regardless of the motivation she is still ATTACHED to you. Whether it's ATTACHMENT through LOVE or HATE it is still ATTACHMENT. It will piss her off even more if you DONT REACT EMOTIONALLY and just say "You know how I feel...PERIOD"
PMA, you could knock me over with a feather on this one. My W is ATTACHED to me? You are kidding me right? What in the world would lead you to believe that? She avoids me at all costs unless it is something special to do with the girls for their sake. She knew her "friend" visiting the girls would get back to me and she knew how I would feel about it as I have made it known in the past pertaining to this guy a few months ago, so she had no choice but to talk about it.
I don't see attachment here so much as more of manipulation on her part to try and pull this off.
I could be wrong. You definitely stunned me with that POV.
Kevin
I struck hard and fast (filed for a D with a protective restraining order). I did not show mercy in the beginning. There was always time for that later if she came around but I kept that big gun loaded and cocked. She was pissed at first, but she admited various times that she liked the strength I had. From that point forward, it was up to her to decide whether she valued our marriage and to prove to me that she wanted back. Even though she eventually asked me for another chance, I had moved on. To this day, I dont regret my choice.
You had a chance to win your M and family back and you said no?
Kevin
Ultimately, I just want to DB the heck out of this and eventually win my W back and my family back. That is what would be best for all of us in the end.
Here's the attitude and control issues we keep trying to point out to you.
You can't WIN your W back. She's gone Kevin. You need to man up and realize that. And WINNING her back will just push her farther away. She has free will Kevin. She has to WANT to come back. And back shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. Why would she want to come BACK to the same ol' Kevin? A new and improved self-sufficient, stand on his own two feet Kevin? Maybe ....
And you keep saying what would be best for all involved. Their are four people involved Kevin and you are only one of them. You can't possibly know what's best for all involved. If your counselor hasn't pointed this out to you, I would seriously get a new one.
If I was you, these would be my 2010 goals:
1. Realize my marriage is over.
2. Admit my part in it.
3. Change those things in me that need to be changed.
4. Take care of my girls.
5. Detach from W.
DONT read into what I said. As her still having LOVING feelings. The fact that she still tells you these things means something. Whether it's because she ENJOYS HURTING you or not is for you to determine. You might have hurt her in the past so much that this is all a big game to her. That she enjoys hurting you. Regardless of why? IT IS WHAT IT IS. She is checked out towards you. SHOW HER that YOU are CHECKED OUT as well. Show her the RESPECT by giving her the FREEDOM she is asking for. Most people when they get what they are asking or BEGGING for dont know what to do once they get it. That is the only move I think you have at this point. Or you just STAY STUCK for this year too!
Not to mention, getting help for your ADDICTIVE/OCD PERSONALITY.
PMA
You had a chance to win your M and family back and you said no?
Kevin
I realized over time that my W did not have it in her to do the work required to rebuild our M. She was wanting back to "save face". Pride, selfishness and stubborness was very strong in her. I suppose, I turned into the WAH.
I struck hard and fast (filed for a D with a protective restraining order). I did not show mercy in the beginning. There was always time for that later if she came around but I kept that big gun loaded and cocked. She was pissed at first, but she admited various times that she liked the strength I had. From that point forward, it was up to her to decide whether she valued our marriage and to prove to me that she wanted back. Even though she eventually asked me for another chance, I had moved on. To this day, I dont regret my choice.
You had a chance to win your M and family back and you said no?
Kevin
Stop saying win!!!!! This isn't a game!!!
I realized over time that my W did not have it in her to do the work required to rebuild our M. She was wanting back to "save face". Pride, selfishness and stubborness was very strong in her. I suppose, I turned into the WAH.
I hear that. It's true what they say about TRUST. Once it's gone it's hard to get back. Especially when the lies kept coming. I didnt know where to start believeing her again. Still dont. Without TRUST you have NOTHING. You either are born with the internal strength or not.
PMA
You say let her have her own freedom. Are you saying to basically tell her something to this affect and then let it be?
W,
Regarding your friend being introduced to the girls and our coversation about it. My feelings surrounding it may be different than yours. But I want you to know that I do acknowledge and respect your own rights and wishes to make your own choices on what works for you and your life.
Kevin
1. Realize my marriage is over.
2. Admit my part in it.
3. Change those things in me that need to be changed.
4. Take care of my girls.
5. Detach from W.
These are worthy goals for many on these boards.
Kevin,
You might be surprised that I'm Catholic and anti-divorce. And yet, it was the words of a priest that finally opened my eyes to the truth. He said, yes, you are expected to forgive. But forgiving does not mean forgetting and there are certain people who will continue to hurt and hurt you. And you need to make sure they can never do that again to you. And there is no sin in that.
You say let her have her own freedom. Are you saying to basically tell her something to this affect and then let it be?
W,
Regarding your friend being introduced to the girls and our coversation about it. My feelings surrounding it may be different than yours. But I want you to know that I do acknowledge and respect your own rights and wishes to make your own choices on what works for you and your life.
Kevin
NO!!!! Don't tell her anything else. As has been pointed out many times, you made your feelings clear on this point. You are still trying to control her. It's like you're giving her your approval.
Can't you see what people are trying to point out to you?
He said, yes, you are expected to forgive. But forgiving does not mean forgetting and there are certain people who will continue to hurt and hurt you. And you need to make sure they can never do that again to you. And there is no sin in that.
Wow! Perfect! Powerful! Thank you for sharing that Drew.
I agree. DO NOT send that. You STATED YOUR BOUNDARIES now STOP trying to CONTROL her REACTION. The ONLY REACTION YOU can CONTROL is YOURS PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO!!!! Don't tell her anything else. As has been pointed out many times, you made your feelings clear on this point. You are still trying to control her. It's like you're giving her your approval.
Can't you see what people are trying to point out to you?
I am not trying to control her. I was trying to see if I needed to make a change here in how...
Oh I give up.
Kevin
And that is why you fail.
He said, yes, you are expected to forgive. But forgiving does not mean forgetting and there are certain people who will continue to hurt and hurt you. And you need to make sure they can never do that again to you. And there is no sin in that.
Wow! Perfect! Powerful! Thank you for sharing that Drew.
That was good. When exh left the first time I went to our priest (I was Catholic then) and he said that exh left the marriage. He abandoned the marriage and wanted it over. There was no need in refusing to sign the D papers at that point. He also said I could still stand for my M but yet keep boundaries in place.
Drew,
If I do anything other than completely walk away, then I am controlling. If I even have an ounce of wanting to protect my kids from being dragged through this, I am controlling.
Forget the fact that I am a parent and actually have an opinion on what is better for their lives. No, I am controlling. Unreal.
Kevin
W,
Regarding your friend being introduced to the girls and our coversation about it. My feelings surrounding it may be different than yours. But I want you to know that I do acknowledge and respect your own rights and wishes to make your own choices on what works for you and your life.
Kevin
Sending this would only reenforce her feelings that you are a weak and someone she can return to easily if she ever decides.
I understand your need to not sit by idle. It is very hard to not try to do something.
Look, my seeking advice from a L had nothing to do with controlling W or punishing W or turning things around with W.
It had everything to do with trying to protect my kids from being pulled into choices being made by W that I do not believe are in the best interest of our kids.
If I am going to be faulted for that, then I will stand guilty.
Kevin
Drew,
If I do anything other than completely walk away, then I am controlling. If I even have an ounce of wanting to protect my kids from being dragged through this, I am controlling.
Forget the fact that I am a parent and actually have an opinion on what is better for their lives. No, I am controlling. Unreal.
Kevin
I never told you to completely walk away. I told you not to have the proposed conversation about OM.
Before you start yelling "Give me Liberty or give me death..." like Patrick Henry I suggest you step off the soap box for a minute and take a deep breath and understand that we are all just trying to help you realize that you do come off CONTROLING and if you are like this one these boards then I'm guessing you are like that to her.
No worries mate. We got yo back yo.
I cant fault you for seeking legal advice. In fact, I recommend it.
Look, my seeking advice from a L had nothing to do with controlling W or punishing W or turning things around with W.
It had everything to do with trying to protect my kids from being pulled into choices being made by W that I do not believe are in the best interest of our kids.
If I am going to be faulted for that, then I will stand guilty.
Kevin
Nobody faulted you for seeing a lawyer. In fact, it was encouraged.
Kevin,
Forget the fact that I am a parent and actually have an opinion on what is better for their lives. No, I am controlling. Unreal.
It is not that your thoughts for your children that are the issue, it is your
reasoning that drives you that is the issue.
You should have your kids best interest in mind. Everything you do should be about you and your kids best interest.
Note that your STBXW is not in that statement. She is not your W currently, nor does she want to be, nor is she in your best interest.
However, the things she does may be in her best interest for her kids, even if they conflict with what you want. And you need to accept that.
It had everything to do with trying to protect my kids from being pulled into choices being made by W that I do not believe are in the best interest of our kids.
If this is your reasoning above for the D, then I am sorry, but it IS about controlling or punishing your STBXW. How you can state this, and not see this, is testament to how much you need to work on yourself in this matter. Do you know the Serenity Prayer?
Does being Legally M influence at all your W's current behavior?
So why would getting a D change that?
Do you see the 'Control' issue in either of the two last statements?
"Influence"=="Control"
I'm not yelling. I am just frusturated because I feel like as a parent it is my responsibility to protect my kids in whatever form I can from being pulled into something that even the C agrees at this point would not be good for them.
And I feel like I am getting told that I am wrong for doing that and it is me trying to be controlling instead of actually trying to look out for my kids best interest.
Kevin
A few things....
You keep saying this is all about protecting your children. Protect them from what? Do you think your W's boyfriend will beat/sexually abuse, shove booze & drugs down their throat or what? If you don't have hard evidence that your W's boyfriend would do such a thing then their is NOTHING to protect them from. People get divorced, they move on and date. It is how life sometimes works out. IMO it seems your strong desire to "protect" your children stems from a fundamental difference you have with your W (you not wanting OM around, your W wanting OM around).
And, I don't know quite how to say this so I simply will be direct. You are *so* worried about protecting your kids from OM but you didn't seem to have a problem contributing to their confusion when you and your W play "happy family" on holidays and b-days so both of you can save face and indulge a fantasy for your children that most probably will not come true (mommy and daddy being together). To me that is FAR more damaging than your W and OM taking the kids bowling.
You are certainly welcome to have any belief system you want but you can't demand others adhere to that belief system in the name of "protecting" your kids.
You have asked your W NOT to involve OM with the children and she decided to go ahead and do it anyway. There is nothing more you can do about it except realize this is just another HUGE sign that there is NO marriage to "win back" or "rebuild".
You smothered your W and now you are smothering your children. Once the D proceedings are over you will be single man and your W will be a single woman and there will come a time when you both have intimate R's your children will be exposed to.
I was so pleased with you last week but now it seems you are falling back to your old ways.
Tell us what you are protecting your children from other than a very different belief system than your W has?
If this is your reasoning above for the D, then I am sorry, but it IS about controlling or punishing your STBXW. How you can state this, and not see this, is testament to how much you need to work on yourself in this matter. Do you know the Serenity Prayer?
Does being Legally M influence at all your W's current behavior?
So why would getting a D change that?
Do you see the 'Control' issue in either of the two last statements?
"Influence"=="Control"
iwantittowork,
I am going to have to disagree with you. This has absolutely nothing to do with punishing W and everything to do with keeping my kids out of this mess. I'm sorry you don't see it that way. But that is really what it is about.
Kevin
I'm not yelling. I am just frusturated because I feel like as a parent it is my responsibility to protect my kids in whatever form I can from being pulled into something that even the C agrees at this point would not be good for them.
And I feel like I am getting told that I am wrong for doing that and it is me trying to be controlling instead of actually trying to look out for my kids best interest.
Kevin
At what point would it be OK?
Yes. the Serenity Prayer? Hence why we all should be in counseling
Kevin you should have this memorized by now.
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."PMA
Tell us what you are protecting your children from other than a very different belief system than your W has?
We are going to disagree here on what is best for the kids. I can accept that yall have different opinions. It doesn't change mine.
At what point would it be OK?
The C said not until at least 6 months have passed since the D being final. They need time to process it and heal themselves. W has decided to disregrad this. I can't do anything about that. But I made my feelings known and I looked into if there was anything I could to keep my kids from having that done to them.
I don't agree that OM should have anything to do with our kids even after the D, but that is my own personal beleifs and feelings and I am well aware a judge isn't going to care. But I do not want her just bringing guys into and out of their lives and basically showing unstableness and that I was willing to look at court and custody options to try and prevent for their sake.
Kevin
which divorce? The emotional or legal one?
Kevin she is acting and living like you are divorced. It doesnt matter what the courts say.
It sux. Believe me. We get it!
That is why we have BEGGED you to DETACH. To LET GO! The sooner you realize that you are not in CONTROL of her ACTIONS the better. Until you make a formal arrangement in court you have NO say. I would suggest you get a custody agreement established in court so, like me, and countless others your rights can start being DEFENDED.
PMA
The C said not until at least 6 months have passed since the D being final. They need time to process it and heal themselves. W has decided to disregrad this. I can't do anything about that. But I made my feelings known and I looked into if there was anything I could to keep my kids from having that done to them.
Well then, better hurry up and get divorced to start the 6 month clock ticking, because she is NOT going to stop seeing her "friend."
I don't agree that OM should have anything to do with our kids even after the D, but that is my own personal beleifs and feelings and I am well aware a judge isn't going to care. But I do not want her just bringing guys into and out of their lives and basically showing unstableness and that I was willing to look at court and custody options to try and prevent for their sake.
Kevin
Kevin,
You honestly don't see this as controlling? Seriously? Let's start there ....
But I do not want her just bringing guys into and out of their lives and basically showing unstableness and that I was willing to look at court and custody options to try and prevent for their sake.
What you say and what you do are completely at odds. You say you're not trying to control her, then turn right around and expect that you can dictate who she can be around your children with. That's not going to happen, barring a custody agreement in your favor; the only other possibilities would be if the new man poses a credible threat to your kids. ("Being your ex-wife's new boyfriend" does not constitute a threat, I'm sorry to say.)
I know it sucks, but that's part of the pain of getting divorced. Your kids are going to be hurt and confused, and you need to focus on YOURSELF and how YOU can be the best parent for them.
Kids are pretty sharp; they'll figure out quickly enough if mom is a trainwreck and act accordingly. The son of one of my friends told his biological father that he wanted nothing to do with him, as soon as the boy was old enough to legally decide for himself if he wanted contact.
What it all boils down to is you don't trust your W to make good choices about the men she dates (because they are not you) so essentially you are saying she doesn't have your children's best interest at heart as a MOTHER as she operates on a different belief system than you do.
Your W considers you divorced. While speculation is not accurate I am willing to bet money as soon as both of your employment situations improve (so she doesn't have to pay support to you) and you both move to Plano she will file. She is simply passing time until both of you have your ducks in a row and she can get the easiest and cost effective D possible.
What I am troubled by is how you hold your W to a different standard than you do. You don't want to expose your children to the men she dates and have them "coming in and out of their lives". What about you? You start things and allow them to come and go out of YOUR life so how is that any different? You started AA then bailed. You started with a C then bailed because he was too young. Then you want balls to the walls "standing" with the support of your priest which essentially means you cycled through "self help" programs until you found somebody who agreed with you.
Stop and think... AA, a C and all the people who post to you can't be that far off base. What is the common denominator here? YOU!
And, I don't feel this is an unreasonable question. You are so worried your children will be confused by your W's boyfriend. Why were you NOT worried about their confusion when you and your W played happy family on Christmas and for your daughter's b-day? Do you think indulging a fantasy that is awfully far from reality confused them? I think it did. Somehow that is okay but bowling with OM is not? Do you think it might confuse them if they knew their dad drifted from one self help medium to the next and why can't he follow through or stick with anything?
And really, you were willing to confuse/indulge your children playing "happy family" why? All for a gamble you posted about for days to "win" your W back. IMO that is a very serious problem and far more pressing than your W taking the kids bowling with a male that is not you.
What I am troubled by is how you hold your W to a different standard than you do. You don't want to expose your children to the men she dates and have them "coming in and out of their lives". What about you? You start things and allow them to come and go out of YOUR life so how is that any different? You started AA then bailed. You started with a C then bailed because he was too young. Then you want balls to the walls "standing" with the support of your priest which essentially means you cycled through "self help" programs until you found somebody who agreed with you.
Stop and think... AA, a C and all the people who post to you can't be that far off base. What is the common denominator here? YOU!
And, I don't feel this is an unreasonable question. You are so worried your children will be confused by your W's boyfriend. Why were you NOT worried about their confusion when you and your W played happy family on Christmas and for your daughter's b-day? Do you think indulging a fantasy that is awfully far from reality confused them? I think it did. Somehow that is okay but bowling with OM is not? Do you think it might confuse them if they knew their dad drifted from one self help medium to the next and why can't he follow through or stick with anything?
And really, you were willing to confuse/indulge your children playing "happy family" why? All for a gamble you posted about for days to "win" your W back. IMO that is a very serious problem and far more pressing than your W taking the kids bowling with a male that is not you.
Very well said, CG.
Too bad it'll fall on deaf ears, as it has every other time people have said the same thing.
Look,
This entire thing is wrong. It is all wrong. It is plainly and simply wrong.
But I can't control any of it. I know that. Just because I may want to have some input and control when it comes to my kids on what they are being forced to deal with, I know that I really don't have any input and I certainly don't have any control over it. I have feelings and opinions, but I know that a judge will decide everything if it comes to that and I will be left with whatever his/her decision ends up being.
I understand the reality of life. I don't have to like it and I don't have to have the same opinion as everyone else. And for that matter, I won't.
But I do have to accept what is and is not within my own control. I do accept that. But it doesn't mean that I would not at least try and see what my options were to protect my kids what I consider not to be in the best interest for their well being regardless of anyone else's opinion. The door is pretty well shut on me having a say in it. I accept it. It frusturates me, but I accept it since there is no other alternative but to accept it. I won't be happy about it and I have every right to not be happy about it. I am not just going to change my belief on something just because it is different than what someone else chooses to believe unless I happen to think they are right and I am wrong which happens quite often, but won't happen with this when it comes to my kids.
It is my opinion and beliefs. Sorry it doesn't match up with others. Thank God it doesn't match up with everyone else. Then I really would feel like a clone.
Kevin
You are hysterical! We are clones because MANY of us have far more experience in this area than you? Somehow all of us are lemmings and you, the famous "stander", know best?
As I just said to Dane on his thread I am really wondering what the point of a "real time" system is when the same advice is doled out on an hourly basis yet it rarely is considered and implemented.
You have a say in a ton of stuff but you don't make a peep. What you would like a say in (your W dating and not divorcing you) you are still clinging to.
Since you are so sure this is *all* about not confusing and protecting your children then why are you not addressing the questions I asked you about other *very* confusing behaviors (the "happy family" holiday and b-day, the lack of dedication to finishing out a program)?
We want to help and support you but when it comes to brass tacks your responses are predictable and include...
<sigh>
she wins
I quit
I am protecting my kids
And my favorite from today... calling the very people that have stuck by you for months and months clones.
I'm sorry. I am purely speaking out of frusturation at this point. I just can't believe there is nothing I can do to stop my kids from getting pulled into this. It bothers me to no end.
And no CG, I did not think about or consider whether Christmas would confuse the kids. I guess I should have.
And no, I don't trust W to make decisions that are best for the kids when it comes to involving them with OM especially the fact that she is involving them at all. And while I made my share of mistakes in the past, I have woken up from a lot of it.
It greatly bothers me. It is like people are basically forced into accepting something no matter how much their beliefs are against it.
I am having a tough time accepting this. I could deal with it when it was just her and OM. I am having a real hard time accepting that my kids are now being drawn into this.
Kevin
Sometimes, it seems like these threads are like the movies "Groundhog Day" or "As Good As It Gets".
This entire thing is wrong. It is all wrong. It is plainly and simply wrong.
This exemplifies the issue.
It is wrong to you, and according to your beliefs.
It is right to your STBXW, according to her beliefs.
Which one is right?
Neither. Because there is no wrong or right, there just 'is' the way things 'are'
According to your beliefs, you can make this 'right' if you can just change or influence something that is completely outside your control.
That is a completely unhealthy way to think and live. It gets you nothing but more of the same thing that you have currently.
Is that what you want? More of the same?
If it isn't, and god I hope that it isn't.
What can you change to get something different from now on?
I'd like to give you a hint to the answer to the question above, but you must find the answer on your own, or it will mean nothing to you.
And no, I don't trust W to make decisions that are best for the kids when it comes to involving them with OM especially the fact that she is involving them at all.
Do you think you ever could trust her again after doing this?
I'm sorry. I am purely speaking out of frusturation at this point. I just can't believe there is nothing I can do to stop my kids from getting pulled into this. It bothers me to no end.
...but you're not trying to control the situation. Oh, no.
It greatly bothers me. It is like people are basically forced into accepting something no matter how much their beliefs are against it.
Welcome to the real world. Crap happens.
I am having a tough time accepting this. I could deal with it when it was just her and OM. I am having a real hard time accepting that my kids are now being drawn into this.
You know something, Kevin?
They are her kids, too.Barring an arrangement where she gets no custody and no visitation, she will get the opportunity to create her own relationship with her kids. You can't "protect" them from that.
Once you are divorced, she may choose to hop in and out of every bed she comes across. She may also find that she can settle down with OM, and end up in a somewhat healthy relationship. But that is her choice, and her prerogative, and the best you can do for your kids is to help them deal with whatever happens.
Of course you didn't think Christmas would confuse the kids because your focus w/Christmas was to take a "gamble" and try and "win" your W back. THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS VERBATIM. Instead of worrying about that you perhaps should have thought about THE ROLE YOU PLAY IN CONFUSING THE CHILDREN.
I don't care if you believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy. You cannot FORCE anybody to believe in those same things. You cannot force ANYBODY to operate under the principles in which you believe life should be conducted. Perhaps your W is dating so much because she is looking for somebody with a more open mind.
What mess are your kids being pulled into? Seeing their mother, who has been separated for over a year spending time with other men?
What about the mess they got pulled into when you took off to Florida leaving them because you couldn't deal with things? What about the mess you pulled them into when you passed a good job on to your W and were drinking all the time? How are those things any less damaging? IMO they are not.
Your W doesn't want to be with you. And if you don't trust her as a mother why in hell would you want to be with her? It makes no sense to me at all.
Basically and ultimately it all comes back to the serenity prayer.
Kevin
You may have the prayer memorized but do you REALLY understand the context of it?
I feel you are using your kids to try and control your W. I am sorry if that is wrong but it's how I see things. You really will have to expand about the "mess" your W is pulling them to and how it compares to the "mess" you pulled them in to.
Before you can pass judgement on somebody else you must examine your role as a man and father. I am surprised your priest has not spoken to you at length about that.
You judge your W about EVERYTHING yet when we point out things you have done you say you are sorry, you get it now and you won't do it again. But you do.
More than once you have shown your kids that when the going gets tough you quit (going to Florida, job, drinking, AA) but somehow that is not pulling them in to a mess. And trying to control what your W does by saying it is for your kids is also pulling them in to a crazy ass mess.
I really would feel like a clone.
Kevin
Kevin, you are not playing nicely in the sandbox.
Can the last person to leave this thread please turn off the lights?
Basically and ultimately it all comes back to the serenity prayer.
Which means what to you?
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
This would include your wife's choice to divorce you, and the fact that she will bring other people into your children's life.
courage to change the things I can;
This would be things like your drinking problem, working with a counselor, and learning to detach.
and wisdom to know the difference.
Or at least the wisdom to listen to people who can help you figure it out.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Are you really, Kevin?
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
This would include coming to grips with the fact that your (STBX)W will make decisions that you do not agree with.
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
Have you really surrendered to His will? You've fasted, you've been a "stander", you've lectured about your morality; but have you considered that maybe God is trying to tell you something by "allowing" this D to proceed?
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.
Can the last person to leave this thread please turn off the lights?
Man, I've tried so hard to stay out of this thread...
I let myself get to wrapped up in this today. It wasn't productive on my part. I understand yalls views. I appreciate the advice.
Kevin
Wow I can't believe how fast this thread has grown in one day.
I think everyone needs to take a breather.
I don't believe that by him telling his W to not introduce the OM to the children is controlling. He is just establishing a BOUNDARY. Since the subject of introducing new relationships to the kids was talked about in C, I think he has every right to remind her again. If he was "controlling" he would have actually done something to prevent it. Establishing boundaries is a GOOD thing. It shows what kind of stuff he's not willing to tolerate.
If it's Kevin's choice to DB, then I think we should all respect that. No one has the right to tell him that he shouldn't be trying to save his M. Even when we detach, we all understand that we would like to save the M, but if it doesn't work out, we're also fine. If he wants to put it on the top of his list, then so be it. That's HIS CHOICE.
We all wouldn't be here if we didn't want to save our M, one way or another. And it didn't take all of us a day to get that "lightbulb moment" where we understood how to properly DB. If he needs to feel disgust at his W to help him successfully detach, then so be it. Many success stories got to that point too.
Let him take it one step at a time. One day at a time.
CG, I'm curious...
Do you think it would be a mistake for me and my H to do things together with the kids? For example, D8 has a birthday soon. I think H belongs at her party because he is her father. D10 has an important ceremony coming up, and H will be there. We will sit together, because it's what is best for her.
Our kids know that even if we can't be H and W, we will always be mom and dad.
The kids want to to an amusement park. They would like Dad to go. Do you think that's a bad idea?
I let myself get to wrapped up in this today. It wasn't productive on my part. I understand yalls views. I appreciate the advice.
Kevin
We just want to see you happier, Kevin.
Boundaries are NOT about controlling another person (which Kevin is trying to do). Boundaries are created to establish a healthy foundation in which an individual can grow, learn, improve and flourish.
Boundaries must be enforced therefore what Kevin is trying to establish is not a boundary as there is NO WAY to enforce it. He can merely make a request however his W is under no obligation to honor his request. Even an attny told him the same thing yet somehow our suggestions along with the suggestions of a DIVORCE ATTNY mean we are telling Kevin NOT to DB and try and save his marriage. The only reason Kevin cannot divorce bust is Kevin. Not us. Not anybody.
Boundaries would be doing many of the things we suggested he do such as breaking apart the finances and other small tasks that would allow him to flourish as a MAN and for a *very* long time he was not a man in his marriage.
Just a week ago Kevin was equating boundaries with "being mean" and still did not seem to grasp that him setting boundaries had NOTHING to do with his W and her reaction or pushing her away.
Kevin has not a clue about detaching. Anger fuels him for a day or two then reality sets in and he CHOOSES to head back to square one.
Nobody can DB until the stop judging, stop obsessing and stop controlling. Nobody. Period.
I don't see you making one bit of difference on the kid/OM situation. I wouldn't even try unless you have some sort of proof that he is not a good influence on your kids. I wouldn't bring it up again. I wouldn't ask your kids about it.
He is just establishing a BOUNDARY. Since the subject of introducing new relationships to the kids was talked about in C, I think he has every right to remind her again. If he was "controlling" he would have actually done something to prevent it. Establishing boundaries is a GOOD thing. It shows what kind of stuff he's not willing to tolerate.
He's simply saying he doesn't want her to bring the OM (or any OM) around the kids, and it appears to be based on his personal opinion that she will be irresponsible or "confusing" for the kids. That is controlling behavior.
A boundary is about his feelings about acceptable behavior, along with a stated consequence for choosing not to respect the boundary. To paraphrase PDT:
"You can't see OM" = controlling
"I feel it is disrespectful to me and to our marriage to see OM, and if you continue to do so I will file for divorce" = boundary
What is the penalty, should she choose to bring OM around the kids? Is he going to push for sole custody and no visitation? If so, on what grounds?
SadGirl -
IMO inviting an estranged spouse to their child's b-day party is one thing but what Kevin and his W did was something else. She snuck in his apartment after the kids went to sleep so they could set up all the gifts then she drove home and came back before the kids woke up. It was very orchestrated to look like a "happy, normal family holiday" when it fact it was all a farce.
Kevin was invited to his in-laws home and basically his W told him it was only because his daughter was worried about him being alone on a holiday.
Of course BOTH parents need to be included on special days for children but the sneaking in and out after the kids go to bed to create an illusion and give small children very false hope is cruel.
Once a divorce is finalized and both parents have had time to heal and work on the co-parenting R and the children have adjusted and understood this is how things will be it would not be outlandish to have "family time".
I understand Xmas is about magic and all that but I got a cold chill up my spine for every post I read on these boards where two parents who are separated try and create the illusion of the mommy and daddy for ONE DAY. IMO that is not a healthy way to approach daily life or a holiday.
CG,
That is true. The thing is that I don't see where he was actually controlling in this case. He established his boundary and came here to gripe about what his W was doing. That's pretty much what we all do.
Sure his W doesn't have to honor his request, but for him to make that boundary is for him. Not her. He has to get her respect even if it's not to get her back, because even if that D, they are still going to have to take care of the kids together.
He will get that respect from her one step at a time and establishing the boundary is a good way to go. Let's face it, even though he let that bit of anger show through last week, he hasn't been obsessing about her AS MUCH as he had in the past.
We all understand that detaching is the way to DB and he hasn't gotten to that "lightbulb" moment yet. I know he'll get there. Rome wasn't built in a day and suspect neither will Kevin's DBing.
No, he didn't establish a boundary.
A boundary would be K telling his W that if she CHOOSES to bring OM around the children then he will file for divorce and sole custody. Establishing consequences is just as important as the boundary itself. BUT, even his attny told him that such a boundary would be IMPOSSIBLE so in fact, it is NOT a boundary at all. It is merely a request and his W could choose to honor it or not. She chose not.
There seems to be an awful lot of confusion on what boundaries are, how to set and establish them and how to follow up with consequences should that boundary be crossed.
Because Kevin does not have a viable consequences (especially one that doesn't stem from the need to control his W and what she does and who she does it with) a boundary cannot exist.
SadGirl -
IMO inviting an estranged spouse to their child's b-day party is one thing but what Kevin and his W did was something else. She snuck in his apartment after the kids went to sleep so they could set up all the gifts then she drove home and came back before the kids woke up. It was very orchestrated to look like a "happy, normal family holiday" when it fact it was all a farce.
Kevin was invited to his in-laws home and basically his W told him it was only because his daughter was worried about him being alone on a holiday.
Of course BOTH parents need to be included on special days for children but the sneaking in and out after the kids go to bed to create an illusion and give small children very false hope is cruel.
Once a divorce is finalized and both parents have had time to heal and work on the co-parenting R and the children have adjusted and understood this is how things will be it would not be outlandish to have "family time".
I understand Xmas is about magic and all that but I got a cold chill up my spine for every post I read on these boards where two parents who are separated try and create the illusion of the mommy and daddy for ONE DAY. IMO that is not a healthy way to approach daily life or a holiday.
Thank you for your input. Sorry for the hijack, Kevin. I think I will suggest that the kids choose one of us to go to the amusement park with them.
And Stuck... there are 20 things I can think of off the top of my head that Kevin has CHOSEN not to set a boundary on with is W. Boundaries that would have been healthy, viable and helpful for him to move forward (note I did not say "move on", I said "move forward and there is a HUGE difference between the two) as a man. Yet, he chooses the one thing where setting a boundary is not a viable or realistic option.
So, do you feel that Kevin *really* understands what a boundary is, why they are important and what purpose they serve? I do not.
This has NOTHING to even do with DB or any of that. This has to do with understanding the basic functions of adult life and what is needed to make that life healthy in every way.
I think what isn't or wasn't being noticed is that I realize I cannot control the situation. I had already come to that realization.
I am frusturated by what is happening. I let my frusturation hit to much last week with my W and today on the boards because I didn't think anyone was seeing my point.
It just came right out as I am judgemental and controlling or trying to control a situation.
I cannot control the situation. I am opposed to what is being done. But I can't control it.
I listed my goals to start focusing on those. That is what I aim to do.
And yes, the lights should have been turned out earlier today and probably by me had I not become frusturated by thinking that nobody is seeing my point. Maybe nobody agreed with it. I am getting used to that.
I do accept that other people have their beliefs and opinions. I accept that I have mine. I accept that they are not always going to be in line with others. I think the same should be accepted by others.
It does no good to debate opinions or get feathers ruffled by opinions. Opinions are what they are. Beliefs are what they are. I did state my boundary to my W and that is done. Whether she chooses to respect it or not is not in my control. I would hope she does, but if she doesn't, I have to live with that.
I have my goals I am going to work on for me. It doesn't include terminating the future with W. But it does include me getting my own life going this year. And it does include that I am going to have opinions one way or the other as this process continues. They may be rejected and spit out or they may be acknowledged and even considered. I don't know. But I will accept the outcome whatever that may be because I have no other choice. I won't be in agreement with it. But I will comply with it.
Kevin
SadGirl - I have no idea if asking the children to "choose" is the way to go. I know there are many people that have far more info on this subject than I do. But I do know that pretending to be the "happy family" really gives small children a sense of false hope when they are still attempting to adjust, heal and understand.
If any parent is worried about their children being confused IMO that should be it. Having both parents attend a special event is one thing - sneaking in and out of a house to make things look "pretty" for one day is another.
Your ONLY choice is to accept and "comply" with the outcome even if you don't like it?
No wonder you can't DB to save your life!
Your FIRST goal should be to turn your outlook around. You will accept the outcome and either way you will be GREAT! You won't comply to anything because you will be just grand either way. That is where you mentally need to be to DB.
And no, you did not set a boundary. You made a request to your W. There is no boundary to set on the issue of her and OM and the children.
Ok. I made a request and it didn't seem to matter. Neither has any other request I have made. Ok, maybe it is not a boundary since there is nothing I can do about it if it is not respected. There isn't really anything I can do if she doesn't respect those requests other than just ignore her and completely disappear from her life which hasn't really bothered her in the past.
I do not see any boundary I can set with her other than removing her from my life in any and all circumstances. And again, like she would care.
Kevin
Then make it a goal to get to a mental place of caring about you and your future more than you care about what your W thinks or does. 'Cause you are right, her actions are very clear that she does not care about her marriage anymore. And we all know the person who cares about the R the least controls it the most.
Kevin..have you ever made a timeline for yourself on how long you will let this go with being legally married to a woman who runs amuck over your marriage? She may go on forever like this. Is that something you are prepared to do?
I know CG. SO2, yes.
Kevin
Tonight I had to work late. W already knew. D12 had choir tonight. I didn't get off until it was almost to close to get her to choir. W went and picked up D7 at the last minute. She asked me to take D12 to choir. I said we won't have time to make it. She said she needs to go. Again I said I won't have time to get her there. W says she can't miss more than 3 times. She then said I can pick up D7 at her house and she will take D12 downtown to the choir. I said fine, whatever. She said by. So I get to the house. I decide I will go ahead and rush D12 there even though neither of the girls have eaten and W waited til the last second to pick up D7 from school. I also had to stop and get gas. I said isn't she considered absent even if she is tardy? That was my understanding anyways, W says she doesn't think so. Ok fine. I will take them.
I go into the house for a second without the kids and W says to me "How was avatar?" I said it was good. I asked her how she liked it to. She said she did. Then she gets snippy with me and says next time I go to a movie for a couple hours to call her so she can spend some time with the girls. Stupid and pathetic me said "ok". Man that was stupid of me. Later on I thought, geez, I should have said, thanks for the suggestion, I will keep that in mind next time and left it at that. But no, I couldn't think on my feet yet again. I'm sitting here thinking, what about when she hires a baby sitter and doesn't ask me if I want the kids? How about the fact every single time I have ever brought something like that up she has ALWAYS had plans. I was supposed to finally assume for one brief period she actually didn't have plans on a saturday afternoon? I'm stunned. This is a first ever since we started exchanging the kids. None the less, another opportunity blown to DB because I was to slow and stupid to think on my feet when she came at me with that in her mood.
I took D12 to her choir and thought about it the whole way there. I get so tired of me being the nice one and I get no respect. It isn't until I become not so nice that all of a sudden she treats me with more respect. Stupid.
As selfish as this sounds and is, I truly hate my life. I truly hate myself. I just don't enjoy my life at all. I truly hate it. I feel like I live in a cave in this apartment. I hate coming home alone every other week at night. I don't get why I basically have to be a jerk to get any respect from her. I don't like being a jerk. I feel like a jerk if I set a real boundary with her and enforce consequences. It is hard to set a boundary and enforce it and not feel like a jerk.
Kevin
If I don't set a boundary, she just steps across every line she can. Why is that? Why do people do that? She knows it isn't right, yet does it anyways because she doesn't care. What kind of mindset is that?
I'm tired and it has been a draining day.
Kevin
If I don't set a boundary, she just steps across every line she can. Why is that? Why do people do that? She knows it isn't right, yet does it anyways because she doesn't care. What kind of mindset is that?
Boundaries are a matter of respect, not necessarily about right and wrong.
She has no respect for you right now, so she will ignore them.
This is a new application for my droid phone i am testing it i can talk to my phone types for me
kevin
Not to bad. It works. Anyways trentc, you are correct about respect and boundaries. Still not a great mindset though to deliberately show no respect just because you feel you can.
Kevin
"Ok, maybe it is not a boundary since there is nothing I can do about it if it is not respected."
No it IS a boundary. Boundaries are for you. It tells her what you will not tolerate. True she may step over them, but they exist to tell her what YOU will not allow.
To a certain extent, boundaries should come with consequences and you follow through on them. Some of the threads that people have mention them threatening legal action as an example. Find what that consequence can be. You have to start thinking like the WAS and not really care about her feelings.
Remember...detach.
Keep those boundaries. It's putting yourself in the driver's seat and not as the victim.
Oh and I don't think there was anything wrong with your W coming over to arrange gifts as if they were from Santa. In that instance it was for the kids. It was Christmas and there's got to be some forgiveness and peace some time.
The key is to know when to use the stick and when to use the carrot.
And STOP saying that there is nothing that you can offer her, she doesn't want anything from you which is how she can disrespect you...blah blah blah. All that is the old Kevin.
"Ok, maybe it is not a boundary since there is nothing I can do about it if it is not respected."
No it IS a boundary. Boundaries are for you. It tells her what you will not tolerate. True she may step over them, but they exist to tell her what YOU will not allow.
To a certain extent, boundaries should come with consequences and you follow through on them. Some of the threads that people have mention them threatening legal action as an example. Find what that consequence can be. You have to start thinking like the WAS and not really care about her feelings.
Remember...detach.
Keep those boundaries. It's putting yourself in the driver's seat and not as the victim.
You need to figure out what the consequences of the boundaries are and follow thru with those. I always think of myself as a mother of 3 year old child (exh) and I say don't do that or ???, then he does it anyway but nothing happens. I say it again and again and he keeps doing it knowing I won't do anything. Need to draw the line and stick to it, not keep backing up the line. Figure out what the consequences are.
Stuck,
Thanks. I agree with you on all points.
SO2,
I don’t know what if anything would be a consequence to W. I’m not sure there is one. I guess it goes back to just protecting myself with boundaries.
I asked my BIL if he thought W has a conscience anymore. He said no. This stunned me as he was the biggest advocate of things working out between us with time and he had the most faith of anyone. For him to say he no longer believes she has a conscience, wow.
Kevin
When did you ask BIL this?
Drew,
I asked BIL this past Sunday. He responded this morning. He has known W almost as long as I have.
Kevin
I'm going to suggest something: Go all day today without posting one word about your W. Not one. Not what she's thinking, not what she's doing, nothing. Think you can do that?
Soooo....How 'bout them Cowboys!
The Cowboys look strong heading into the playoffs. But I hate playing the same team 2 weeks in a row especially when we have already swept them this season. Historically this has happened 19 times with the team who swept winning the 3rd game 12 times. However, the Cowboys have faced this at least twice before and lost the 3rd game both times.
So I have a few jitters about this playoff game. But man, they are looking good at the right time now. Our defense looks great now.
Kevin
So what are you doing today to make your life better?
So what are you doing today to make your life better?
Working. I don't have my girls tonight, so I will excercise and then continue my search for a better job. It doesn't look like my business team can meet tonight.
Kevin
Thanks PMA. I appreciate the positive encouragement.
Kevin
Is that crickets I hear chirping? So quiet in here now that we aren't talking about what's her name! Just kidding.
I saw a cricket and stepped on it. I felt better after.
Kevin
Kevin,
It is my great hope for you that you really put some effort and time in reading the many books that were suggested to you regarding boundaries. I do not feel you have a good grasp and understanding about boundaries or why they are necessary. Boundaries are not about being a jerk. Far from it.
I am sorry to hear you hate yourself and don't enjoy your life. I feel you are waiting for somebody else or some outside factor to improve those areas for you. That will never happen. It has to be all you.
You have said countless times you are very weak in the area of "thinking on your feet". Now is the time to change that instead of constantly saying you simply are not good at it. Right now you are not in a place of strength to be able to think on your feet when it comes to your W. The solution? Have an arsenal of "stock answers" etched in your brain. The next time your W makes a demand or suggestion ALL you need to say is "I will have to think about that and get back to you". That is all you need to say. Period. Certainly you can memorize one line, right?
It is a tremendous journey to find happiness within. This happiness does not ride on a R, your children, a job, a new business, money, a house or any other outside factor. IMO you are seeking out "something" to give you happiness when in fact the *only* thing that can give you internal happiness is you. Only you.
Turn all this in to a positive. Choose one book about setting boundaries and read and study it until you get it. Then post about the book so everybody who has put forth the effort in reading it can engage in a discussion. The result? You will understand boundaries and we can all learn from each other.
I was really looking forward to you and I being "cheerleaders" to one another on our goal lists for 2010. To be frank, I really need a "goal partner" that is wholly and fully dedicated to working on the list each and every day.
I will be going back to school in two weeks to study law. I hope to specialize in family law. I need to complete three semesters to become a paralegal. After that I will need to complete another three semesters to earn a BS in Legal Studies. I do have a college degree although its in a different field. What will happen after that? Maybe I will take the LCATs just for giggles and see if any law school will have me, lol!
My point. I am the only one who has the power to be happy with me. I am the only one that has the power to create the future I desire. I am scared to death (in a good way) about the next few years. I will have LOTS on my plate... school, running my business so I can PAY for school and all the other things that are part of my life that I love. I have a disease that will never be cured (or it might be but I am not so sure it will be in my lifetime) but I am still going to give everything I have. I will probably stumble often and even fail from time to time but NOTHING - and I do mean NOTHING - will stop me.
You know my story so I won't bore you with it again. I went from the very bottom of hell. Putting aside the emotional issues I was a very ill woman in a physical sense from my lupus. I decided I was done living like that. I clawed my way back to the top and guess what? I am decent. I want to keep evolving but at the end of the day I like who I am.
I am also strong enough to know that during the next few years I will need support and encouragement from time to time. So will you. I will ask again... do you want to be "goal buddies" with me? I will hold up my end of the deal. Will you?
CityGirL - PROFOUND.....
all i have to say
I will ask again... do you want to be "goal buddies" with me? I will hold up my end of the deal. Will you?
I could use a goal buddy and yes I want to. I will keep my end of the deal and I do appreciate it.
Kevin
Okay, I am very glad you still want to be buddies.
Since I am a pretty cool buddy <insert laughter here> I will come right out and ask. What do you need from me? How can I better support and encourage you?
Perhaps I can share with you what I need. I will need support and encouragement to remain focused. If I post that I am tired, overwhelmed or feeling buried I will need a kick in the ass and a reminder that I *can* do this.
I will be going back to school in two weeks to study law. I hope to specialize in family law. I need to complete three semesters to become a paralegal. After that I will need to complete another three semesters to earn a BS in Legal Studies. I do have a college degree although its in a different field. What will happen after that? Maybe I will take the LCATs just for giggles and see if any law school will have me, lol!
Why are you studying to become a paralegal rather than just going straight into law school?
My college degree wasn't related to law. There were people with all kinds of degrees when I was in school.
I don't doubt for a minute that any law school would scoop you up.
Okay, I am very glad you still want to be buddies.
Since I am a pretty cool buddy <insert laughter here> I will come right out and ask. What do you need from me? How can I better support and encourage you?
Perhaps I can share with you what I need. I will need support and encouragement to remain focused. If I post that I am tired, overwhelmed or feeling buried I will need a kick in the ass and a reminder that I *can* do this.
I can do that. That won't be a problem.
I guess one of the things I need is for you to refocus me when I start getting side tracked. I got way to easily side tracked yesterday. One of my bigger issues is simply staying focused on the task at hand and not reading into things and thinking there is something more there than really may be.
That is the quick thought that comes to mind.
Kevin
I chose the paralegal track because I do think it is something I will really enjoy and I am very, very certain its what I want to do. I have been thinking about this for almost a year and my thoughts have not waived once. As far as taking things any further I am just not sure at this time.
While I LOVE to learn and be challenged I do NOT love school. I understand school is necessary to obtain a certain type of job but I simply am not one of those people that love, love, love being a student.
A four year degree in legal studies simply would give me more earning power as a paralegal. What I mapped out in an earlier post is sort of my "best case scenario". For me though school has to be a "one step at a time" process. I fare much better when I break up school in smaller time frames. I know for sure I want to work as a paralegal. I do not know for sure what I want after that.
I have a few close friends that went through law school and some do work as attnys and others do not. So, I decided for me it was best to sort of reach one goal, see where I am at and go from there. I plan to finish my coursework to become a paralegal where I live now. I do hope to move out of state after that. Once this initial goal is reached I can better evaluate the next path.
Thanks for your encouragement. I am not sure why but I feel so nervous! I have not been in school since 1997! YIKES! A law school might have me but they might not want to keep me
CG, sounds like a good plan. I just know you will do well.
I loved school, but even I couldn't find much to love about law school.
I am so impressed with anybody who made it through law school. I watched my friends who completed law school in awe. Total and complete awe.
I am of the mindset that once I start something, no matter how much I don't like it (school for example) I will finish it. Knowing myself that way is why I chose to complete the paralegal coursework first. The "prize" seems much easier to attain in three semesters. I am hoping I look back once that is finished and say to myself "hey, that wasn't so bad, lets keep going!" (this mindset might require several bottles of wine! lol!)
My attny has been so, so supportive. He let me spend several days in his office with is paralegal and legal assistant and I loved every minute of it. Due to the nightmarish nature of my divorce case I spent lots of time with my attny. Putting aside the emotional turmoil one feels when they are part of the case, I really loved every minute of it.
I am also very attracted to the idea of the options a paralegal has. Sure, a paralegal can work in a law firm but they also are needed in many other entities. I love the idea of having so many choices upon completion.
I really do admire you for attending law school. You should be so, so proud of yourself. I am proud of you!
CG,
25 would be a great resource for you on law school. You should really pick her brain.
Kevin
I would be honored and grateful to have the opportunity to speak to anybody that has completed law school. The inspiration alone would be nothing short of amazing. Over the past year I have tried to talk to as many people as I know who have chosen some form of law as a career. It has been so very helpful.
I am not looking for anybody to blow smoke up my ass. I do wonder if I am smart enough. My attny seems to think I have many skills that will bode well. I love to read and research and I certainly have honed my ability to think outside the box. What I might lack in "brains" I have in drive and dedication. Hopefully that will be a winning combination, lol!
CG,
25 would be a great resource for you on law school. You should really pick her brain.
Kevin
Ditto!
Thank you, CG. I'm pretty proud of myself too. I remember the first day so vividly. My contracts prof said "look to the left and look to the right. At the end of the semester, one of you won't be here." My first thought...oh crap! My second...whew! I'm sitting at the end of the row. Only one person is looking at me. I can do this.
Law school isn't about smarts. Presumably, everyone there is smart. It's not about liking research, liking to argue, etc. It requires outstanding writing and critical thinking skills. Many MANY people get there, and are shocked when they realize they didn't develop basic essay writing skills.
Anyone can learn the Rule Against Perpetuities, but not everyone can apply it in a well written manner.
My advice to you...make sure your writing and thinking skills are stellar. I can tell you are very well written, so it should be easy.
I'm excited for you. Makes me want to go back to school. lol
Thanks! My business is largely focused on the creation of business and marketing plans. While I realize that is not the same as law per say I do feel many of the concepts will carry over in a general sense.
Often times I will have 1500 plus pages of stats, analytical research and other forms of information and it must be boiled down to a 30 page business plan. I am hoping the process of creating a business plan from start to finish will provide me with some foundation for my future studies.
I learned so much from my attny. Simply by watching his process I really learned to adjust my thinking to a more reasonable and productive track. His legal assistant was my angel. The amount of work that woman did on a daily basis was nothing short of amazing. One day I was talking to a friend and he said "she is just a legal assistant". HA! Spend a day with her and you will see she is the foundation that keeps that office running!
I also look forward to being able to look somebody in the eye and let them know I understand this process is frightening and foreign, I will help them and fight for them under any circumstance and at the end of the day things will be okay. I know how terrified I was when my case started. Without my attny and his staff (legal assistant and paralegal) I am not sure I would have made it.
You go girl! I can't wait to follow along on your journey.
Just a legal assistant?! Right. The LAs and PLs do ALL. THE. WORK.
Sounds like a lot of people will benefit from what you went through.
What is making you decide to change career paths CG? Do you plan on also continuing your business on the side or leaving it all together at some point?
Kevin
I have been thinking about a career change for a while now. At least a year. I am sort of looking at it as a career enhancement and not a total change.
In some capacity I will probably always keep my business running as I really do enjoy it and I have spent so many years building it. I am not sure I will ever be able to let go of my "baby". While I am in school I will have to keep my business running in order to generate income to pay daily expenses and tuition as I don't want to live off savings during that time.
I can take my business anywhere as long as I have access to a computer and phone. While I do have deadlines to meet for clients I have quite a bit of flexibility which is a huge bonus while in school.
I do plan to have children one day and my business will allow me to be home and still work and support myself and my family. So, no, I can't imagine leaving it behind.
This next phase is really something for me and me only. I might feel fulfilled after completing the paralegal coursework and dive right in. Hence the reason I decided working with smaller educational goals is best for me.
I love the idea of options and a paralegal has so many!
What I love the most is the idea of me being in charge of me. I am here to create my own destiny. At this juncture of my life I feel this is just "right".
I could do well in the medical field, but would not in the law field. I started out in biology and chemistry and did good at it. However, I switched to computer science and then met W and had a kid and life began. There is no way realistically right now for me to go back to something so grueling on time. But I did enjoy it.
Kevin
Ok. So I talk to 2 L's and a business owner who is a paralegal in the making. Life is certainly full of interesting people.
Kevin
My sister is a scientist/lab rat and she LOVES it. Originally she was a nurse and did work in nursing for a few years. She enjoyed it but her true passion was science/lab work. She went back to school for a second degree that she completed last year. While she was in school she worked as a processor in a lab and now she works in the stat lab of a large county hospital and she LOVES it.
My sister and brother in law made tremendous sacrifices in order for my sister to go back to school. In the end it was so worth it. My sister loves her job even though it is grueling and tedious work it fuels her with passion. I call her the "Lab Queen". I guess I should say I view her work as grueling and tedious. To her it's a new adventure and problem to solve each day. I about barf when she tells me of the specimens and samples she has to analyze each day, lol! But to her it is pure joy.
Just reading about my sister's course schedule when she was in school made me want to cry (and puke, lol!). She is an absolute inspiration (and a totally smarty). If you like the medical/science field then go back to it. There is no law saying you have to take all the classes at once. Hell, take one class each semester.
You know, this is the FIRST time I have ever heard you post about something you truly enjoy that would be just for you. If I can do this (and keep in mind I am the original hot mess
then you can!
I'm not sure at this age what kind of career it could lead to. I don't even know what kind of field I would even want to go into let alone if the pay would be worth going back to school for. But I think I might do some research and check it out anyways. Never know unless I look.
Kevin
Well, the money is definitely there if I wanted to be a chemistry professor. Wow. I never realized that.
Kevin
What does age have to do with it? Is there an age limit for returning to school or changing careers? I hope not, lol!
Sometimes it's more about being happy and fulfilled in a job rather than what you make. Of course we need to be able to support ourselves and children but one can always find a way to do that.
And, FWIW, the few years of sacrifices my sister and BIL made for her to return back to school have paid off in spades. She graduated last May and was offered the position she has now a few weeks after graduation. In less than a year the money she has earned has just about made up for all their sacrifice. She is very well paid but she also adores her job.
My friend has one semester left to finish school. She dropped out to get married and have babies. Now she is 38 and working dead end jobs. She thinks she is too old to go back to school and finish her degree. I always tell her a year will pass either way. How do you want to use that year? Complaining that you never finished school or actually FINISHING school?
Time will always pass. How we use that time is up to us. You always have a reason as to why you cannot do something. Turn that around and I bet your life will change.
Why is it always about the money for you?
What about the love of the work? The passion you feel each day? The example it sets for your children that it is possible to go to work and adore your job each day?
Why is it always about the money for you?
What about the love of the work? The passion you feel each day? The example it sets for your children that it is possible to go to work and adore your job each day?
Because it's something that means She Who Must Not Be Named might take an interest in him again; he's mentioned conflicts over money before.
I understand, Trent. My point was/is a career is for an individual and not about a spouse.
Lots of money will not buy you happiness. It might remove stresses about debt or give you a sense of security that you will have a roof over your head, food and other necessities but it NEVER will make you internally happy.
Honestly, if somebody is attracted to the money or status first and the person second it should be a red flag. Or I should say it would be a major red flag/turn off to me.
It is about securing a financial future for myself as well as something I would enjoy. I just wonder with Chemistry not being an easy field how well I could do at it now versus 15 years ago. But I want to be able to buy a house and retire and not have to worry about my future. That is why I look at the pay off plus whether I can do it and if I would enjoy it. I am going to take a look. I don't think most classes have started up yet.
Kevin
Kevin,
You're doing great!!! (Well, one minor slip, but we won't count that .....)
So, don't worry about your future and focus on the present.
A house and the retirement account will come with time and a dedication to budgeting and sacrificing for a greater good. Having a career you really love that you had to work really hard for will only make the house/retirement account that much sweeter.
FWIW - my sister and BIL bought a house while my sister was in school. My BIL makes "ok" money and my sister was only working part time as a lab processor. Dedication, budgeting and lots of sacrifice helped them achieve their goal. IOW they didn't buy Droid phones, go out for dinner or try and find a bit of immediate happiness/excitement on "stuff". They clearly kept their long range goal in mind.
Think of how excited you were and how much you chattered about your Droid. Would you have been equally excited if you had put the Droid purchase price in to a retirement or home buying account?
If your goal is a house and a solid retirement and your income is limited you have to be willing to sacrifice a few weeks of excitement to reach the long range goal. How are you doing that? Yes, I know you are looking for a better job but until then what you are you doing each week to meet the goals of buying a house and securing your retirement?
I am saving money and therefore lacking in much to do for entertainment.
But my point really is that it would be a lot of fun to be a tram driver at six flags. But it only pays $7 an hour. That isn't going to secure much of a future and a house and what not. So my point is you do have to take some form of financial thought into it, not just fun if you have goals you want to obtain.
Kevin
Ok. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do not equate "fun" with being passionate about your work/career path.
Fun is what you do for entertainment or for kicks. IMO that has nothing to do with a career.
If your most pressing need is to buy a house and secure retirement then I agree... find the highest paying job you can within your skill set and education and to hell with feeling passionate about your work. My H is like that and I guess some people simply are. He is very good at his job but he doesn't love it or really even like it but he does make 6 figures and has for some time. But, he would shovel poo for 7 figures no matter how much he hated it as the paycheck is what he is after. Different strokes for different folks!
Funny thing is my H isn't all that happy of a person despite the large payout he gets twice per month.
I agree it needs to be something you can enjoy. I just also think you have to weigh in the financial benefit as well depending on what goals you have in life.
Kevin
I think people are still nitpicking everything that Kevin says and is relating it to his sitch.
Nothing wrong with having fun with your job. And nothing wrong with getting a job that brings in more scratch.
Having a discussion with differing viewpoints is nitpicking? Kevin rarely shares anything other than thoughts about his W or how unhappy he is. We can only respond to the information that is provided to us. Can't say I understand the "nitpicking" comment but then again I don't agree or understand with the majority of what you post so it's all good.
Kev - on the Yahoo homepage (under the "today section") a new article was just posted about job satisfaction. I found it to be an interesting read and it covered many aspects (pay, fulfillment, insurance and so on).
Interesting stuff Kev. I just caught up from the 29th on.
I agree that money always seems to be the first thing you mention. And having been married to someone similar, I understand why. Time to get over that.
And is it just me, or is every time you say you're doing something "for your daughters" it's really for your W? Money won't matter to them, unless you want to get into the typical divorced parents competition to buy the kids love. Please don't do that. Money is never what a kid wants anyway.
Beyond any of that, do you enjoy working in cubicle world? Would you enjoy mobility, laptop and phone anywhere like CG?
I just got a job with a new start-up, but it will be much more structured, office, 9-6 set schedule. It's such a good opportunity I had to take it, and try and work both.
Looks like the Sunday meeting is working out, looking forward to it.
Well it does sound like nitpicking. He just made a casual comment and was jumped on it. If you look at his posts since Day One you know which comments refer to his sitch and which ones are casual comments.
If I were him, I'd be afraid to say anything lest people misinterpret what I wrote.
Just my 2 cents.
Happy New Year Kevin.
Stuck does know me well enough to know when I am not referring to my sitch. These latest posts have not had anything to do with my sitch, but instead about my own future and goals that I am considering.
CG, I started thinking why not as far as going back to school. I would have to work out some sort of different schedule and it would cause me to miss a lot of time with my girls. It is something I would have to take into consideration.
I did do a bit more research tonight and it looks like most chemist jobs outside of a tenured professor make less, the same or a bit more than what I am already pulling in. I am not sure in the long run it would be worth it unless I went all the way to professor level which I am guessing would take many years and all the way through a phd as well as intern and a ton of school loans to pay back. It is a lot to consider.
Jon, I actually grow tired of the cubicle world when it revolves around reporting and analysis. I have done that for so long that I would like to do something different. I am just not sure what. But I am exploring some things since CG got me to thinking today. Also I am going to go ahead and set up a dinner for Sunday night. FaithfulH will make it if his flight arrives on time and fightin4mywife is in as well as a friend of mine who has a name on here but has never posted. He just reads. His name on the boards is AtTheEnd. Not sure if there are spaces in his name or not but it won't show up either way. Also IRMAC would like to join, but I don't know if she is available Sunday. Soco has said she would like to make a meeting sometime, but I have not yet heard from her this week on it. So at the minimum, I am thinking it will be at least 5 of us Sunday night.
The money has nothing to do with buying anything for my daughters or their love. I have a real concern about my financial future now that I am winging it alone and didn't take things seriously when I had the opportunities when I was younger. I'm not getting any younger and I can't just sit by for more years to pass without doing something about it.
I definitely wouldn't mind being more involved in the team project world again as I have some experience with that as well as some past experience doing BA work. I enjoyed that stuff.
I enjoyed biology and chemistry in college years ago. But I don't know if it will really pay itself back at this point in life. I am definitely looking at things though.
CG, I am not sure where the yahoo Today section is on yahoo. I don't see that section.
Kevin
Hey Kev,
I can't make it this time around but keep me posted the next time you get together and I'll drive up.
MCAT study group. anyone?
Kevin! You made it a whole day without talking about "___"! Yeah!
I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!!! One down. 90 2 go!!! ;-)
Use this time to work on YOU. If you dont YOU will REGRET it.
Consider yourself on sabbatical from your marriage. Time to focus on fixing Kevin NOT, what's her name.
PMA
On page 61 of this thread you made a post that said the following:
I truly hate myself
I truly hate my life
I just don't enjoy my life at all, I truly hate it
I hate coming home alone every other night
IMO those are very serious (and honest) declarations. And why do you feel that way? If I had to guess it would be due to your situation.
How in the world can anything you post NOT be about your situation if you truly hate your life that much?
How does one change and remove self hatred? I am not 100% sure but it *does* all come back to your situation. Only you can change that. What the rest of us can do (as in all the participants of this fine forum) is broach topics, share experiences and brainstorm ideas to perhaps assist you in getting your brain moving in a more positive direction.
Once again perhaps we need to agree to disagree. When an individual (and it could be any of us) makes such disparaging comments it is all about the "situation".
Maybe we are all just desensitized to such statements as we read thread after thread of heartache, confusion and other difficulties we all face. I feel though, no matter who makes them, the above phrases are very serious and do relate directly to the situation at hand.
On page 61 of this thread you made a post that said the following:
I truly hate myself
I truly hate my life
I just don't enjoy my life at all, I truly hate it
I hate coming home alone every other night
I have made those same statements to a degree myself. Not sure about Kevin, but as a wife/mother/stay at home mome for over 20 years now that has become my identity. I gave up my own self for my family. Who I was was taking care of them. I knew nothing else...no hobbies, no social life outside my children and husband. So when my family fell apart and I only had my older kids part time I felt so lost. I hated my life. Everything I knew was stripped away and I felt like I didn't know what to do with myself. Especially when it was not your choice to end your family and you have to suck it up and go on.
Not saying they are right or wrong....just that I can relate!
If I might be so bold, I think what Kevin hates is that his life isn't turning out the way he planned or at least envisioned it. I know that was an issue for me. I think what clued me in was the statement he made along the lines of "then I married W and life began."
Kevin, unless you were born married, you had a life before and will have a life after whatever happens. It's YOUR choice where you take it from here.
I can relate too! I think we all can!
What I was attempting to articulate is most of the fear, self hatred, guilt <insert difficult emotion here> all goes back to the very painful situation of having a marriage end.
There is nothing wrong with feeling what you (general you) must feel but allowing yourself to feel that way for a year or two is not healthy. At some point we all have to pull ourselves up and get our brain working in a new direction. Some people turn to counseling, religion, a new career, new hobbies... *something* that will assist them in starting to rebuild.
I understand those moments of self hatred won't just go away and from time to time they may crop up but based on my own experience it is very unhealthy (both emotionally and physically) to allow those thoughts to be so prominent all the time.
I felt really frightened when I read that post. What else is there to do? Keep talking about how sad, miserable or <insert emotion here> or at least try and help each other get our brains moving in a new way.
And, FWIW, even though my situation is over I still read this forum each day and participate in a "real life" divorce support group. I do that because I often need inspiration.
I simply feel that eventually some balance must be attained. It's not easy, I know. We all know.
I truly hate myself
I truly hate my life
I just don't enjoy my life at all, I truly hate it
I hate coming home alone every other week
I will admit that I do truly feel this way sometimes. But I also realize that when I start feeling this way, I have to find a way to pull myself out of it. And it is in all honesty because this is not how I envisioned my life going. It was ripped apart mostly by my doing. Not all, but a good part of it. And for that reason, I find myself hating my own self at times because of the mistakes that I made that caused a lot of this situation for myself and my kids and the other factor.
It is an emotion that I am aware that I have to defeat by improving my life and finding joy, yet security and stableness and hope for a good future by working at things I have never had to work at before in changing me from within.
It takes daily work to refocus myself. It is very easy to fall back into dispair at times. It takes work to keep from letting that happen. At times I fall into it anyways.
I am still mulling over a beneficial education that I would enjoy that would also pay off in the long run.
D7's birthday is coming up on the 15th of this month. She is excited about it and talking about it.
Kevin
I also wanted to add it is very easy to throw yourself into *something* just for the sake of doing it. IMO the very crucial element of turning your (again, general you) is to find some meaningful and real personal fulfillment. Anybody can say they are doing new things and yes, after being left in a marriage it's hard to even focus/function, eventually though we have to stop "faking it" and really start searching for something that is real. That *something* is different for everybody but I am certain that it can exist for everybody.
Life is very fragile and very short. The difference between life and death is one breath. Often times we have to do a tremendous amount of searching to find our individual *something* that will bring us personal fulfillment. Otherwise how do we begin to overcome the self hatred? If there is some magic formula I am not aware of I would LOVE to know it! There comes a time when we have to stop drifting through "things" and begin searching. It could be something small or a major life change but stepping on the path is essential.
Nobody said this was easy. It's tough. For most of us it will be one of the top 3 most difficult experiences of our life.
Well, can you at least try and understand why your post frightened me? You are very fragile and reading such statements from you that you posted late at night after another unproductive encounter with your W was *very* concerning to me.
If I said I was in a ton of physical pain and I was sick of taking all my meds and getting labs and seeing my dr. what would you say? I hope you would kick my butt something fierce and tell me that would NOT be acceptable.
Well, can you at least try and understand why your post frightened me? You are very fragile and reading such statements from you that you posted late at night after another unproductive encounter with your W was *very* concerning to me.
I can certainly understand how that came across. And I am glad you decided to whip my butt into shape. We all need a pick me up now and then. I just have a tendecy to beat myself up for things I caused and then further dwell on the results of those which leads to discontment within myself and my life at times. Like I said and you also said, it takes work to keep myself from heading down that mind thought.
Kevin
And yes CG,
I would definitely try and pull you out of it if I saw you talking like that. I do it for others I know as well.
Kevin
Split those finances yet?
Sorry Drew,
Was working on something. No, I have not separated them. I am thinking things through.
Kevin
What are you afraid of?
YOU, not she that must not be named ........
Just thinking it through.
Kevin
What is there to think through?
A few days ago you were all set to do this and now you are back to "thinking" while your W is thinking of more ways to cake eat.
My guess is he's still "stuck". Stuck in the "Mr. Nice Guy" role.
Which leads to thinking like "if I do this it might upset WAW and cause her to file or ...." What you eventually learn by READING the books that many have suggested is that this is the opposite of what happens. The more you do to FORCE the WAS to FACE the REALITY of what THEY are doing the better chance you have at getting them to come out of their trance. Think of your WAW as being in a trance like Indiana Jones was in the Temple of Doom. You need to keep burning them with REALITY so they can WAKE UP to the DAMAGE that is being done.
Or just keep on doing what you have been doing aka "cheeseless tunnels" because thats definitely been working for you.
Like I said. Now that my X is out of her trance, which took 2.5 years she is DEALING with the REALITY of all the DAMAGE she caused. Dont get me wrong. I have OWNED my part as well, but we all know how that goes when the WAS is in their "trance" aka fog, possessed state, abducted by aliens, etc..
2.5 years? I am 17 months into this. At what point did you move forward with separating accounts PMA? And was your W in a better financial career where she could have cared less?
Kevin
PMA,
Are you and your W back together. Forgive me for not remembering. If not, what is that status and why?
Kevin
What does your W's income/career or what she cares or does not care about have to do with YOU taking control of YOUR finances?
Help us understand why you think splitting accounts is such a terrifying move? Why are you comfortable letting your W "cake eat" with joint finances while she is sleeping with other men?
What does it matter if PMA's spouse came back when the issue at hand is why you are lagging on taking care of your OWN finances?
I am confused.
Because Kevin still thinks if he would just do "X" his wife will come back and all will be hunky-dorey.
2.5 years? I am 17 months into this. At what point did you move forward with separating accounts PMA? And was your W in a better financial career where she could have cared less?
Kevin
Again, why do you worry if she cares or not?
No problem. Divorce was finalized last January. I eventually realized that I was in love with the person I wanted her to be not who she really was. A lot of us on this board have come to that realization.
Once the TRUST was broken over and over and I had finally moved on emotionally like she had it was done for me.
I still wish things could have been different especially for our daughters sake, but it is what it is. You have to eventually accept reality just like they eventually will.
Like I have recently posted. In the last couple days my X has let me know how sorry and regretful she is. I have told her that I wish she would have come to this revelation earlier. Plus she is still with the guy she had the affair with which makes it very difficult to trust her again. I am more interested in working on our relationship as co-parents.
God Speed. PMA
And I had an hour-long meeting with my ex-wife this morning on some co-parenting issues where she admitted that my fiance has been a blessing to everyone.
Kevin, life is passing you by while you "think things through."
oh. about the finances. Prior to our separation my X left a 6 figure income to start her own insurance business. Now she is regretting that decision. I stood my ground from day one. She stayed in the house. As part of our settlement agreement I was paying $500 pm towards the mortgage once she said she wasn’t paying the mortgage anymore and was going to let it foreclose I stopped giving her $500pm. She was pissed but I stood my ground. Eventually we settled on joint, physical custody but again she didn’t follow thru with her side of things so I filed for full like she had done. After the GAL's report came out recommending I get sole custody of our D4 she finally got her "wake up" call. That would probably have never happened if I folded like a lot of people choose to do.
My advice, once again, keep on tightening the screws. Force her to accept the reality of what she has done and continues to do. aka get the courts involved, separate finances, no family time. If I hadn’t had fought hard she would have never had to face the consequences of her actions. Some people are so screwed up and desensitized to what they are doing that you have to be the one.
Until you give your WAW the freedom she is begging for she will never know what it feels like to not have you in her life. Every time you show your hurt feelings to her she knows she has you right where she NEEDS you. Break the cycle. Be the MAN we all know you can be.
PMA
aka get the courts involved
I can't afford to. The funds aren't there and the L called me back and said not in my best interest that the current deal is the best I can probably hope for. He said I can put in the decree no sleep overs by men until and if W remarries which is standard. He also said I can ask for CS given our differences in salaries, but that it could lead her to go after custody if I do and I could end up losing big time.
I don't see how this helps build a bridge back to each other.
Kevin
I don't see how this helps build a bridge back to each other.
Kevin
Because it once again FORCES her to SEE the REALITY of the situation. She is divorced in her mind Kevin, but because of you still holding on is not FEELING the EFFECTs of divorce. She still thinks you will want to play house even if you have another family. It's true DIVORCE isn't a game. Help her see that this is REAL. Not only will she loose YOU but also her "fantasy" of what her family is.
Kevin,
I'm not talking about your finances now:
What are you so afraid of?
PMA,
Are you saying to have 2 separate birthday parties for D7 next weekend. One on my time with her and one on W's time with her instead of together? Also W's father is coming into town and W's family is planning on participating. To do this would alienate any progress I have made with MIL and the rest of the family. They would all view me as they did before.
Is that really the road I want to go down especially when we have already been discussing birthday plans?
Help me out here.
Drew, I just don't want to make a mistake. Ultimately I want to reconcile with W and have my family back intact along with my kids having both parents together and in the same house again. I just do not want to make the wrong move and completely eliminate that from happening down the road. I don't want to be percieved as a jerk and therefore no reason to look back at me.
Kevin
Basically I don't want to be look at as a jerk to my W and her family.
Kevin
Again - you are trying to control how your W or her family view you. And quite frankly I bet they view you as a wimp.
Do you see a pattern here? When your MIL doesn't get her way she either manipulates the situation until she does or she stomps her feet and makes enough noise until people just give in.
Your W does the same thing.
And when your daughters pitch fits (which you have posted about) they are doing the same thing.
Do you feel that is healthy?
Plus I am having to rely on W to pick up my girls this week with my boss in town again as I have no where else to turn on that one with it being my week with them.
Kevin
Do you feel that is healthy?
No. But I am not sure playing hardball is going to help things if I start a week and a half before D7's birthday party. Plus D7 wants us both there. It is important to her. Why crush her spirits?
Kevin
I am actually in a place where I have to rely on my W for help with our kids thanks to my job picking up more lately. If I lose that, I am screwed.
Kevin
Kevin,
Ultimately, you have to live with your decisions so you have to choose your course of action.
But it seems like you don't want to listen to any of the people giving you advice here. Over and over ....
Kevin,
What are you going to do when you are divorced, have your kids, and have to work?
What are you going to do when you are divorced, have your kids, and have to work?
I don't have another option when I have to stay late. We have been told that we will stay until everything is completed on certain days. I have to work with her to keep that help. There is nobody here that I can rely on to help out with that.
Kevin
I hate to break this to you but one day both of your daughters will realize the "act" you and your W presented to them for a very long time. Ask any child of divorce. If they have not already eventually they will "get it".
So you would rather rely on your W then find a solution for childcare which you will need to do sooner than later as a single dad?
Drew is right - you have to live with your choices and since you have clearly made choices already what else is there to say to you?
You know, my H e-mailed me two days ago about nothing. I ignored him. He e-mailed my y'day and I ignored that too. Today he texted me wanting to know why I was ignoring him. For a brief second I thought about responding for the 7000th time as to why I choose not to be his friend. Then I decided I was tired of being a broken record. Ya either get it or ya don't!
As long as he is still bedding the woman he cheated on me with and unable to address the enormous pile of crap that he created then there is simply no place for him in my life. EVER. I did my part and he chose not to do his. No problem!
You didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer the question.
I still have to rely on her when it comes to needing help picking up the girls. I don't have another option at this time. If I go full force into everything, she could pull that option out from under me and I don't have someone else to help with that situation.
Kevin
Instead of harping on what you DONT have why not seek out a solution so it becomes something you DO have.
Do your children not have any friends with parents? Why not see if some sort of carpool can be arranged? It will allow you to be more involved in the life of your children as it will allow you to get to know their friends and parents better and it would provide you with a SOLUTION instead of, as usual, relying on your W.
AFTER YOU'RE DIVORCED, what are you going to do when you have your kids and have to work late???!!!!
Instead of harping on what you DONT have why not seek out a solution so it becomes something you DO have.
Do your children not have any friends with parents? Why not see if some sort of carpool can be arranged? It will allow you to be more involved in the life of your children as it will allow you to get to know their friends and parents better and it would provide you with a SOLUTION instead of, as usual, relying on your W.
Good idea! I am sure you can arrange with another parent if need be. I do it all the time for my kids friends etc. I really like this idea of you being proactive and finding your own childcare.
I don't know any of their friends or parents. I'm not sure they really have any outside of school. They don't ever hang out with them if they do.
Plus I live in a different suburb from there school.
Kevin
I don't know where to begin ........
I understand what you are saying Kevin. But, once again DB princible number one "stop doing what isnt working". What isnt working is you still DEPENDING on your WAW. You need to show her the new, INDEPENDENT, CONFIDENT Kevin that is a MAN of Solutions and not PROBLEMS. Figure out how to live on your own as a single parent like the rest of us have had to do. Stop living in the same FANTASY world your WAW is.
Take back CONTROL of your life. Show her that you dont NEED HER to be HAPPY. In fact that you prefer a life with out her. Make her chase you for once. That is what GAL, PMA is all about.
Find some friends with kids, volunteer at the school to make friends with parents, stop whining and playing the victim game and TAKE BACK CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE. Go to AA, Co-Dependents Anon. Join church groups, Find happiness outside of your marriage NOT just the occasional "field trip" but real happiness.
And Re-Read your damn post. Lots of good $hit here!!! You could have wrote a best-selling book by now that would have taken care of your $ problems. Stop being a victim and be the victor!!!
Once again. Be William Wallace in Braveheart "FREEEEEDDDOOOMMM!!!!!!!"
I get so tired of your same, depressing attitude. It's been a year. Let your old marriage die and create a new life for yourself and your girls. It may be a new marriage w your WAW. That's ENTIRELY UP TO YOU!!!
Out. PMA
( 2 X 4 Warning!!! )
Stop being a doormat.
That is what I really don't get.
If your main goal is to get your W back (and IMO that should NOT be your main goal) then why do you keep doing things that don't work? NOTHING you have done has worked. NOTHING. In fact the more you do the same things the more staunch your W becomes and that has been especially apparent over the past few weeks (her introducing OM to the kids, her inviting you out of pity to her parents house).
You know nothing you are doing is working. But you won't do anything else. I don't get it. I really don't.
CG,
Need a new goal buddy?
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cripes - so far my buddy has not focused on any goals so I think I might become the WAB (walk away buddy).
(Don't tell him but I'm actually trying to half p*ss Kevin off. So far it seems like the only thing that might spur him to action ....)
Don't worry, your secret is safe.
Kevin
No fair. You we're peeking.
Remember a few weeks ago we decided we weren't going to be doormats anymore? I slipped for a bit, but am now back on that horse! Get on too!
I'm not a doormat.
TulsaTime,
You are always welcomed to join us. I will post ahead of time each time we are getting together. I am going to try and get the group together at least once a month.
Kevin
Swamped at work today.
Kevin
It helps pass the time by.
Kevin
I feel surprisingly calm today. I have this feeling like things are going to be ok.
Kevin
That's because they will be.
I feel surprisingly calm today. I have this feeling like things are going to be ok.
Kevin
Me too! Awesome feeling huh?
SO2,
It is. But it comes and goes.
Ok, well it is Friday and I am without my girls again which sucks. I also have some kind of chest cough and congestion which is driving me nuts.
I'm looking forward to Sunday night getting together with my DBing buddies. And the Cowboys playoff game is tomorrow night. I submitted my resume out last night to multiple locations of an agency I have worked for in the past. Hopefully something will come from that.
And how about that game last night between The Horns and the Tide. Congrats to Alabama, but truth is, had Colt McCoy not gone out right away, it would have been a different game all together and I have a feeling he would have shredded that Alabama defense. But injuries are part of the game, so hats off to Alabama for beating a freshman QB in his first real start being the national championship game.
So tonight, what to do? There could be a good intense game of thumb twiddling. It might even be exciting. Which thumb will dominate? It is a tough call.
Kevin
View tonight as a golden opportunity, not as something to "get through." Do you know how many busy people would KILL to have a free night to do WHATEVER they wanted?
It's all about attitude and perspective, Kevin.
Carpe Diem.
Drew,
I do spend far to much time just looking at how I can get through one day to the next as opposed to how can I form a free day into GALing for life.
Kevin
I'm definitely tired of killing time. I just don't know what I want to do with my time.
Kevin
I'm definitely tired of killing time. I just don't know what I want to do with my time.
Kevin
That is too bad as you are missing out on a wonderful life
There are these things called "hobbies".
I think you can find them using Google.
What do you like to do or always wanted to do? I really had to think on this too. My family has been my everything for so long that I am lost without them.
So you can't think of ANYTHING to do so you will do nothing? Awesome. I am so glad you are my goal buddy 'cause that is damn inspiring.
Go see a play, foreign film, look in the paper and find an open mic night somewhere, browse a hobby shop until SOMETHING catches your eye, hit the library then find a coffee house you have never been to and plant your ass and read your rad book.
Kevin you didn't post anything last night so I am assuming you were out GALing! Hope it was fun whatever you did.
COWBOYS BABY! 8 more hours!
I went to a meetup group last night with some friends. We had a good time.
Kevin
Good! Glad you went out. How is the PMA today?
The PMA is good. I am looking forward to watching the Cowboys play tonight. Not sure if I will sit at home to watch the game or go out somewhere to watch the game.
But either way... game on.
Kevin
Looks like I am going to a friend's house to watch the game tonight. It should be fun.
Got mass tomorrow, then gonna get some studying in, and then meeting FaithfulH, Fightin4MyWife and Jon2911 for dinner tomorrow night.
Kevin
Cowboys rocked it last night! So great!
Hello Goal Buddy!
I would like to offer you an update as to where I am on my goal list. In turn, I would like have an update from you.
In the past 10 days I have accomplished the following from my "to do" list:
Registered for school (I start on the 19th of this month)
Let H know I decided to file my 2009 taxes without him
Filed taxes
Adjusted my business plan to accommodate my schooling. Accept that weekly adjustments will need to be made to accommodate coursework while still earning enough to sustain my expenses.
Adjusted savings plan and budget to reflect decreased income due to school
Renewed passport and scheduled all appts for the next year (medical, labs, testing, C'ing and dental)
E-mailed H and let him know if all portions of the Agreement he is responsible for initiating are not complete by Jan. 30th I will take further legal action which he will be billed for. 2.5 months is ample time and the tasks he has not yet completed would take him less than a day.
I also requested he give me three firm dates and I will select one that works for me so he can get the remainder of his stuff out of here.
<wipes brow> I have been busy! How about you!
See you tonight Kevin!
CG, you're not divorced? Did you file married separate? I might still do that for '08, '09 choice coming up also. Taxes are so much fun in our sitches.
I am legally separated. You only have to be legally married (and legally separated is still legally married) for one calender day per year to file jointly. But you can file "married separate" if you so choose. Just be sure you inform your spouse of your intentions before you do so she knows how to file!
You don't have to be legally separated to file "married separate" but it usually comes with a penalty if you do file that way. My H is the one that will incur more penalties than me and if I include his income on my financial aid applications I will not qualify for aid. So I am doing what is best for me!
SO2,
The Cowboys defense was awesome. For a change our QB isn't having to win the games all by himself. It was great to see. That defense almost looked like the defense of old in the 90's when the Cowboys were winning superbowls. Next up is Minnesota.
Last night was great. I met up with FaithfulH, Jon2911, Fightin4mywife and BlueButterfly for dinner. We all had a great time and it was great to see everyone and talk about our sitches and eat some good food.
CG,
You are definitely taking your goals by the hand and running with them.
As far as mine go, I have sent out some resumes looking for a better job. I went to mass this morning and am trying to get more centered around that and spent some time studying catechism yesterday after mass. I am also trying to do the rosary each day now. I know this may not mean much to you in the way of goals, but these are some adjustments I am making.
I got up at 5:15 this morning to start my day. I am adjusting my schedule to get in mass and things in the morning. This will also allow me to leave work earlier and give me more time for excercising and studying in the eveings which I am picking back up. I have been keeping my place up better. I also am fighting some sort of cough I have had since last week that has me so so on energy levels right now. I am focusing on finding peace at home alone and concentrating on things other than the fact I am alone.
Life is good. I got out with a friend of mine both Friday night and Saturday night. I have started finding enjoyment in watching my Dallas Cowboys play again which has taken me nearly 2 years to be able to enjoy again.
I have decided to not go after W with any forcing of account separation or filing for D. I am at peace with this decision after praying and speaking with what I consider to be good Godly counsel. This doesn't mean that I am errand boy or a doormat. But I will not do anything that could come across as vindictive which is how I feel it would look.
I have trust issues that need to be rebuilt with my W and I don't think zapping her from my life would help that.
In the mean time I am becoming more focused at work and putting forth more effort to learn as much as possible while making contact with agencies and other jobs as well as keeping my resume up to date out of job sites.
The next financial discussion with W will be about how she wants to do the taxes whether it be filing jointly or single and which one will generate a bigger return.
I have also decided that I will attend D7's birthday dinner or breakfast with W and her real dad who is flying into town since I have been included in that. Actually, I have D7 for that period and W had told me her dad wants to do a meal with her and us and we need to work that in. I said that is fine. I am finding that the more I continue to treat W's family the way I would want to be treated, the more they seem to be coming around.
Today I have some work on my plate, but it doesn't appear to be as busy a day or week as last week was.
I kind of liked getting up earlier today and starting my day off at mass and am looking forward to how better schedule my evening with some extra time.
Kevin
Kevin, I wish you all the very best. I can't say I agree with your thought process (or even understand it) but I do accept this is what you have chosen for yourself and I hope it works out just as you want to.
Take care!
I hope it works out too. These sich's are so frustrating. You have to do what is best for you and what is working for you. Just don't want to see you going backwards! Only forwards in 2010.
I hope it works out too. These sich's are so frustrating. You have to do what is best for you and what is working for you. Just don't want to see you going backwards! Only forwards in 2010.
Much apprech. But not to worry, I am not going backwards. I am doing what is right.
Kevin
Kevin, you sound so much better now. I'm glad that you are doing things with D7 and W and FIL. My H's family I don't think would ever want me around from the lies that H told them. Things seem to be going better for you lately and I'm happy for you.
I have decided to not go after W with any forcing of account separation or filing for D. I am at peace with this decision after praying and speaking with what I consider to be good Godly counsel. This doesn't mean that I am errand boy or a doormat. But I will not do anything that could come across as vindictive which is how I feel it would look.
I have trust issues that need to be rebuilt with my W and I don't think zapping her from my life would help that.
In the mean time I am becoming more focused at work and putting forth more effort to learn as much as possible while making contact with agencies and other jobs as well as keeping my resume up to date out of job sites.
The next financial discussion with W will be about how she wants to do the taxes whether it be filing jointly or single and which one will generate a bigger return.
I have also decided that I will attend D7's birthday dinner or breakfast with W and her real dad who is flying into town since I have been included in that. Actually, I have D7 for that period and W had told me her dad wants to do a meal with her and us and we need to work that in. I said that is fine. I am finding that the more I continue to treat W's family the way I would want to be treated, the more they seem to be coming around.
Today I have some work on my plate, but it doesn't appear to be as busy a day or week as last week was.
I kind of liked getting up earlier today and starting my day off at mass and am looking forward to how better schedule my evening with some extra time.
Kevin
Think about what I bolded.
Not following here.
could come across as vindictive
Nor here.
trust issues that need to be rebuilt with my W
Nor here.
how she wants to do the taxes
This one I can take the lead on and just tell her how I am doing mine.
her dad wants to do a meal with her and us and we need to work that in
Yes, I am letting her have her way on this one. But I don't see any harm as it gives me a chance to rebuild with her dad.
they seem to be coming around
Not following here.
Kevin
That's OK, Kevin. We obviously agree to disagree, and the things I've learned that I'm trying to point out to you, you'll just have to learn on your own.
I wish you the best.
you'll just have to learn on your own.
Yup.
Much apprech.
Thanks,
Kevin
Hey from New Zealand K4D.
Actually, dbing started out very badly for me too but I hung in there and WAW did come around. Frankly, once I got the hang of it, it was easy. The hard part is the R. Rebuilding trust, healing, dealing with jealousy and often having a late newcomer distract you.
The one peice of good advice I can give you is do what's good for you. It may have taken me 2.5 years but I am pleased I took that long and I can now look at our M properly and realistically.
Your faith will help.....
I will be going back to school in two weeks to study law. I hope to specialize in family law. I need to complete three semesters to become a paralegal. After that I will need to complete another three semesters to earn a BS in Legal Studies. I do have a college degree although its in a different field. What will happen after that? Maybe I will take the LCATs just for giggles and see if any law school will have me, lol!
Why are you studying to become a paralegal rather than just going straight into law school?
My college degree wasn't related to law. There were people with all kinds of degrees when I was in school.
I don't doubt for a minute that any law school would scoop you up. CG-
My thoughts exactly...go straight to studying for the LSAT...no need to do the other stuff. You may be delaying the real deal and using para-legal work to avoid the reality of what you say you want to do. Why do that? Very few college classes relate to what you'll study in law school. What matters is your ability to write and to distill many things into a few ideas...and you have that. Plus one advantage for you in admission to law school is having an unusual major. Most of us were English majors or Political science. Don't do what everyone else is doing to get in. You are ready to take the LSAT prep course and from there, decide more. Without a doubt, I'd take the LSATs before doing ANY para-legal work. It delays your financial situation from improving that much longer.
And fwiw, imo, don't go to law school with too narrow a focus; be open to other areas of law as well. Family law is very draining and a relatively dangerous area of law for L's...and last but not least, you WILL get into SOME law school. Make sure it's an accredited one, AND stay current with the reading b/c it sucks to get behind. Good luck,
Sorry for the hijack.
j-
I have been thinking about a career change for a while now. At least a year. I am sort of looking at it as a career enhancement and not a total change.
In some capacity I will probably always keep my business running as I really do enjoy it and I have spent so many years building it. I am not sure I will ever be able to let go of my "baby". While I am in school I will have to keep my business running in order to generate income to pay daily expenses and tuition as I don't want to live off savings during that time.
I can take my business anywhere as long as I have access to a computer and phone. While I do have deadlines to meet for clients I have quite a bit of flexibility which is a huge bonus while in school.
I do plan to have children one day and my business will allow me to be home and still work and support myself and my family. So, no, I can't imagine leaving it behind.
This next phase is really something for me and me only. I might feel fulfilled after completing the paralegal coursework and dive right in. Hence the reason I decided working with smaller educational goals is best for me.
I love the idea of options and a paralegal has so many!
What I love the most is the idea of me being in charge of me. I am here to create my own destiny. At this juncture of my life I feel this is just "right".
Not to quibble but you say paralegal studies will only be 3 semesters..well law school is just 3 more, and gives you many more options in many careers, than would paralegal work. Sometimes I get hired to speak about health care, or a policy issue, based solely on having a law degree. It helps in every field I know, to have a law degree whereas for most people, a 4 year "legal studies" degree just doesn't make sense -- to me to get another BA when the real deal for an employer is knowing you can handle the mental level of a graduate degree, and trust me, (and Sad2), we know you can.
WE KNOW IT...we're not blowing smoke...
why would we?
ALL businesses love having an inside L, even when they hate L's...and people hire you to review their contracts,
which you can do from home so YES there are legal jobs you can do out of your house and charge lots more than a paralegal can, plus a paralegal will always need an attorney to actually review the work that gets filed and since you're just as smart as we are, it'll get annoying to work FOR someone you could be working as a partner of...just saying...
the only reason you've given for paralegal work instead of law school is your belief that you'll "LOVE" paralegal work but your doubt that you'll enjoy the law as much & therefore the additional 18 months (3 more semesters) of school to become a L, would not be worth it. To me that's a weak argument.
If you like the field, but don't want the responsibility of being an attorney, then say that. But I think it's fear of failure CG
and you are not someone who should have that fear.
You write & organize your writing too well - and think too clearly to sell yourself so short.
Study for the LSAT and see what happens. THEN think about other options. How can that hurt? You can always retake the test...
j-
again sorry for the hijack.
What are you going to do when you are divorced, have your kids, and have to work?
I don't have another option when I have to stay late. We have been told that we will stay until everything is completed on certain days. I have to work with her to keep that help. There is nobody here that I can rely on to help out with that.
Kevin
J-
I'm here. Nothing to report in the sitch.
I did get an email from an agency that is interested in sending me on a job interview for a company that bought out an old company I used to work for. It would be a great job as I liked working for the old company. We will see what happens on that front.
W is also on an interview this morning.
Kevin
The one peice of good advice I can give you is do what's good for you. It may have taken me 2.5 years but I am pleased I took that long and I can now look at our M properly and realistically.
Thanks Kiwi,
That is what I am trying to do.
Kevin
Another full weekend coming up.
Thursday night I am doing a birthday dinner for D7 with W and her mom and stepdad and D12 and maybe SIL and her BF and daughter.
Friday night I am doing a birthday dinner for D7 with W and her real dad and D12 and maybe SIL and her BF and daughter.
Saturday D7 is celebrating her birthday party and of course, me and W will both be there.
Fun fun fun... Another chance to shine. Although I somewhat dread it as well. But I have to keep positive about it.
Kevin
Find someone you can rely on. Hire them. Single parents all over the world do this. You can too. You have to.
J-
Thanks 25,
Kevin
Kevin,
Well put, you sound better than ever. You made some decisions here and drew some boundaries, that should feel good.
I enjoyed hearing FaithfulH's advice to you about NOT splitting the finances. I had similar thoughts, but he puts things so much better. What a wealth of experience, I loved hearing his story. I've been meaning to read this thread for a while, time to do it:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1782809&page=1My favorite part was when he said that his W leaving was the best thing that could have happened to him, because of the growth that's resulted. That's so hard for me to believe right now, good to remember.
Fun fun fun... Another chance to shine. Although I somewhat dread it as well. But I have to keep positive about it.
Kevin
Kevin, try not to put so much pressure on yourself, don't worry so much about shining. Just have fun with your girls and not worry if W notices you or anything. As always just be there for your kids and let D7 have a great party weekend!!
Do keep positive man, co-parenting will ensure that you have a lot of contact with W far into the future, whether still married, divorced, etc. Blessing and curse I guess. It's different for those of us without kids involved. I can cut off all contact from my W if I need to, you'll never be able to. Sometimes I definitely wish we'd had kids.
less than three weeks til my vacation. Hmmmm ..will I spend some of it in Dallas, TX??
Kevin,
Well put, you sound better than ever. You made some decisions here and drew some boundaries, that should feel good.
I enjoyed hearing FaithfulH's advice to you about NOT splitting the finances. I had similar thoughts, but he puts things so much better. What a wealth of experience, I loved hearing his story. I've been meaning to read this thread for a while, time to do it:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1782809&page=1My favorite part was when he said that his W leaving was the best thing that could have happened to him, because of the growth that's resulted. That's so hard for me to believe right now, good to remember.
To me, faithful's story is primarily a story of faith,
manifested in growth..
.HE changed, as did his wife, and their marriage. Every m is different -- and the road to this place of trouble, going our separate ways and reconnecting later or not, or reconciling...all our paths vary.
K4, you have been here over a year. Yet when I read your posts you sound
a lot like you did a year ago. Yes - to be sure, there are days when you sound different. There are days you sound as if you really "get it"....
But then, not long after, you wil revert and backslide, and the behaviors sound very similar to the past ones. As in, same old same old. The longer you see yourself as being different without the actual growth, the longer you'll stay stuck and bewildered. It's not clear to me from your posts whether anything is much different in your behavior, but you admit your w isn't moving towards you. And yeah, the same problems seem to arise between you two and within you.
Kev, what people try to tell you that isn't getting through is that you have options. But you reduce them to only 2, and you interpret those two options so narrowly...you seem to think, either you'll do the "standing"
which to you means, be the same guy doing the same stuff, and don't file for divorce, OR "moving on--
which to you, means giving it up and dating OWs. Neither of the options you see, focus on growth in you. That is the missing ingredient in all your plans.
All your "work" and all your "standing" is for nothing- if there is no growth, and growth means change. You've heard this 100 times. Process it.Think about that. See if you can come up with some 3rd option. Some other course of action that is healthy and authentic for you. Healthy means,
at least in part, realistic, and authentic means that it fits you. What path could that mean Kevin? How long could you apply yourself to that course of action?
Better figure this out soon. Life is short and time is passing. You are still just filling time and the depression you suffer from is clear when you describe your life...lots of waiting for "it" to happen. Not much joy in your voice...just filling time slots until...what? And most of your good times boil down to what others think of you or how they act towards you. And if that's true, you'll never control your own happiness, and that IS depressing.
Find a path and stick to it K4. OR...what? I know you don't want to be here forever.
j-
I really like that 25yearsmlc. Makes a lot of sense. You sure got me thinking hard tonight. Thanks for that post...even thought it was not for me it still did a lot for me.
25 I could really use some advice. You seem to give Kevin such great advice, and I really like him but I see a lot of my behavior just like his.
I know you want to save your M and if it were only a few months of separation I would say maybe wait a few, but its been months and months, W has had numerous A's and she isn't looking over her shoulder at all. It sucks and I'm sorry!
I have to agree with 25. You should find that happy medium place that keeps you moving forward even if its at a slow pace. I could really see your sich staying this way for a long time because its wonderful for your W. What cake eater wouldn't like this situation?
You do much better when you are pissed off and angry
I think it is very important to clear things up. Nobody here doesn't "like" Kevin. In fact, we don't know Kevin as an individual as he does not allow us to get to know the person that is Kevin because every move he makes, every thought he has and shares is all about his W.
Even stuff he tries to pass off as things "for him" really all relate back to his W.
While ALL of us here (here = this forum) arrived with the same problem (broken or already dissolved marriages) and it is our main topic of conversation eventually personalities come out. We have not seen any personality from Kevin and that is a concern. A HUGE one!
There was a really great "getting to know" thread that SuperGirl started and it was a really fun read! So many neat facts and tidbits were posted about other things aside from our marriage/R problems. Things about US as people. Guess what poster had NOTHING to share?
25 shared a personal story a while ago about her sister (I think it was her sister, maybe her sister in law) and how she was so depressed all the time she became a chore. I don't know anybody that is not depressed when their marriage falls apart. It is horrid. It sucks the life right out of you. We all crawl under the bed with the idea of NEVER coming out. But eventually we all have to crawl out. One cannot have marriage problems consume every fiber of their being for years on end. I know this for a fact as I did that for so long I would up hospitalized. Not good. I don't recommend it at all.
The only people who support Kevin in the way he wants are the people that are just as stuck as he is. It's sort of like a drug addict thinking their dealer and other junkies are their best friends. They are not good friends but they do accept a junkie because they are a junkie too.
It has nothing to do with "not liking" somebody. In fact, I doubt any of us would continue to post such thoughtful and informational posts to Kevin if we didn't like him. But the longer this goes on the more I think we realize we don't actually know Kevin. We know "Kevin and wife".
To remove all the emotion from the situation which seems to have reached an almost volatile point think of this scenario...
In Aug. of 2006 I fractured my patella (that is fancy for a broken knee, lol!). I wish I could tell you I was doing something super cool and adventurous when this happened but I wasn't. I was walking home from the market, I was wearing flip flops and it started to rain. I picked up my pace and my flip flop hit a patch of slippery pavement and down I went. The pain was so intense it almost didn't hurt if that makes sense.
A few days later I saw my orthopedic dr. After reviewing all the images he gave me two options and I didn't like either of them. Option one was to wear a very heavy and invasive immobilizing brace that went from my hip to my ankle for EIGHT weeks and essentially be on "bed rest". My fracture was "clean" and this method is usually the first line of treatment. Yes, it sucks but it is far less severe than having surgery right off the bat for a problem that can correct itself with the right tools (tools = brace and staying off my feet).
To me, the idea of being confined to a bed or sofa for EIGHT weeks was horrid. In fact, my family took turns babysitting me while my H was at work because they knew I could not sit still for two months.
I told my dr. that and he looked at me and shrugged and said "do what you want, I really don't care what you do I am just telling you what will work and what will not". He then said "your knee will heal eventually if you do nothing but it won't heal properly". I thought to myself what a huge prick this dr. is. You know, the DOCTOR that went through med school and has been in practice for 25 years. Certainly I *must* know more than him, right? WRONG.
My point? Somebody "in the know" can tell you what will work and what won't work to heal. And sometimes the option you have to heal SUCK. Who wants to choose between EIGHT weeks of bed rest or surgery that could result in an additional EIGHT weeks of bed rest? Nobody! Both options stink! Sometimes though the option to heal DO stink and we have to choose the one that stinks less. The key being to CHOOSE *something*.
Hey CityGirl.
Just want to tell you that your last two posts kick a$$...like so many of yours do!
I hope you're doin' OK.
Maybe its time for some healthy boundaries with our friend.
Well put, you sound better than ever.
I'm really not. I am struggling pretty badly. I just don't feel like talking about it lately. There is no point really.
Kevin
Many people have offered great advice on getting "unstuck".
Many people have offered great advice on getting "unstuck".
Yes, they have. Thank you.
Kevin
I know I am going to regret asking this...
If you were starving (and I don't mean starving because you skipped lunch, I mean starving like you have not eaten for a week) and somebody said "hey Kevin, there is a dude on the corner passing out free food" what would you say?
(A) Yes, thank you for letting me know, I saw him handing out the free food but I walked right by him (even though I am so hungry I would eat dirt at this point) but thanks for letting me know.
(B) FREE FOOD!!! I am starving... how do I find this man and what is the fastest way to get there?
It is both concerning and disturbing you openly admit how much you struggle but you keep walking right by all the things that can make you "struggle free".
I honestly don't know why I keep doing this to myself. I used to feel really sad for you. Mostly because you reminded me OF ME. And I know I annoyed the hell out of people because I was going to do things "my way" and to hell with it all. In the meantime, while doing things "my way" I still complained how awful it was (like you). When I finally got with the program I realized that maybe everybody else wasn't all that far off base and I was the problem. Then my life got better bit by bit.
I want to understand (really more than anything) why you don't want to feel better? I think my life would be complete if I could get it. For real.
I also see a lot of the former me in Kevin and that's why I keep trying. I went the Mr.-Nice-Guy, Don't-Rock-the-Boat route for a long time also ..............
Eventually you have to feel the pain. There is no way around it. As much as you try and make this about your W, your kids, the OM its really about you. Good news is you have 100% control over yourself.
Kevin, I learned this from you. Thank you!
Eventually you have to feel the pain. There is no way around it. As much as you try and make this about your W, your kids, the OM its really about you. Good news is you have 100% control over yourself.
Kevin, I learned this from you. Thank you!
Very much agreed. At some point you will need to accept its over..at least for now. Feel it, greive it, and get past it.
My exh is the most manipulating man on this planet and its a constant battle, but honestly being proactive and not letting him run all over me anymore feels so much better than just waiting for the next hit.
There are questions I have that I can't get answered from the church. I have been told due to a possible snafu there is a slight chance my M may not even be valid, yet to assume it is anyways. I have been told do not D my W because even if I do, I still have to assume I am M and nothing changes until the church has ruled on whether or not my M is even valid. I can't seek an answer on whether or not it is valid unless a D is filed by my W. That answer would take up to 16 months to get if and when a D goes through should she choose to go through with it. I pray for my M and family to be reconciled not knowing if I am praying for a M that may have never been valid and therefore prayers would not have an effect on.
There is a lot of confusion in me right now that I can't get direct answers to.
I don't know where my M stands in the church at this point other than I am not to pursue D which I don't want a D anyways.
I am stuck in limbo in that regard. Meanwhile, it is lonely without her and I don't even know if she is really my W. But I can't pursue someone else either since the church has not ruled on it and won't unless a D is finalized that I can't file for if I am to be in submission with the church.
I am trying to stand for this M yet I fail miserably at times only to find myself regretting failing and trying to get back on it.
I am not looking for debate on this issue. I am just telling you what the state of things are right now for me.
I am also looking for another job as me and my 2 coworkers are tired of being reamed and called on the carpet for making even minor mistakes sometimes on our reporting processes that seem to be changing everytime we put our heads up with ridiculous deadlines to meet that can't have any mistakes. Our bosses are jerks about how they handle it when one arises.
At one point the other day me and my coworker were told to go to my cubicle and get on speakerphone. Our 2 bosses griped us out for 2 minor mistakes that slipped through. They were such jerks that other people sitting around us that could hear the speaker phone walked by saying what a bunch of @ss's. We said yes. Unfortunately, that is how they always are.
So I have put my resume out there, but not many leads at this point.
Being a contractor I still don't have health insurance or paid time off and we have another day off on Monday with no pay for MLK day. This is the 3rd one in 3 weeks.
So between those issues, I am somewhat frusturated and struggling this week.
Don't be sad for me CG. You have your own happening life to live and enjoy. I just feel like everything is in limbo with mind right now. I have no answers from the church, yet I can't make any moves either. I just feel trapped all the way around lately.
My W just chooses to disregard everything and do what she wants and I have chosen not to disregard everything even though I don't always succeed.
My kids are tired of going back and forth every week. They don't want to be in an apartment, yet don't want to be away from me either. They also get tired of forgetting things at one place or the other no matter how much we try and make sure they have everything each week. They get bounced back and forth because of this crap.
But hey, W is enjoying herself to the fullest. All is well in her world. And she may have just landed another good job with a bit of assistance from my BIL. It just sucks for the rest of us.
So the only thing to get unstuck from is to learn how to enjoy being alone with no options regarding R's and trying to land another job.
W texted me and asked if we could do a birthday dinner with D7 Saturday night with her mom and step dad since her real dad is in town today. Tonight is her night with the kids and she wants to spend time with her dad and them without me. Ironically, tomorrow night and this weekend and next week is my time with the kids and she is wanting us to do dinner with her dad tomorrow night since it is my night with the kids. We will spend the birthday party together Saturday afternoon and then dinner saturday night with her stepdad just to accomdate their schedules since I have the girls during these times.
And yes, I allowed this in trying to improve R's with everyone. Interesting that tonight came about the way it did with me to be excluded again on her night. But I have some real issues I have been trying to get past towards W's real dad for pushing for a D from the beginning anyways. I have learned to forgive on that matter, but this is all just a bunch of manipulating BS from W and her dad as far as it appears anyways.
Just having a rough week with a lot of confusion.
Kevin
Kevin,
I am stuck in limbo in that regard. Meanwhile, it is lonely without her and I don't even know if she is really my W. But I can't pursue someone else either since the church has not ruled on it and won't unless a D is finalized that I can't file for if I am to be in submission with the church.
Do you HAVE to be with someone?
My kids are tired of going back and forth every week. They don't want to be in an apartment, yet don't want to be away from me either. They also get tired of forgetting things at one place or the other no matter how much we try and make sure they have everything each week. They get bounced back and forth because of this crap.
How do you know this? Did they tell you or are you assuming? You seem to project your feelings onto others.
W texted me and asked if we could do a birthday dinner with D7 Saturday night with her mom and step dad since her real dad is in town today. Tonight is her night with the kids and she wants to spend time with her dad and them without me. Ironically, tomorrow night and this weekend and next week is my time with the kids and she is wanting us to do dinner with her dad tomorrow night since it is my night with the kids. We will spend the birthday party together Saturday afternoon and then dinner saturday night with her stepdad just to accomdate their schedules since I have the girls during these times.
And yes, I allowed this in trying to improve R's with everyone. Interesting that tonight came about the way it did with me to be excluded again on her night. But I have some real issues I have been trying to get past towards W's real dad for pushing for a D from the beginning anyways. I have learned to forgive on that matter, but this is all just a bunch of manipulating BS from W and her dad as far as it appears anyways.
Just having a rough week with a lot of confusion.
Kevin
What do YOU want to happen this weekend? What do your kids want?
Do you HAVE to be with someone?
Just lonely Drew. I miss a R.
How do you know this? Did they tell you or are you assuming?
They have told me this.
What do YOU want to happen this weekend? What do your kids want?
My kids want us all together. W doesn't seem to care unless it is on my time. I would like us to be together. But I don't get a say on my W's time.
Kevin
Kevin,
I am stuck in limbo in that regard. Meanwhile, it is lonely without her and I don't even know if she is really my W. But I can't pursue someone else either since the church has not ruled on it and won't unless a D is finalized that I can't file for if I am to be in submission with the church.
Do you HAVE to be with someone?
Do not seek outside yourself. Look within.
Sorry to hear about your mood right now.
Honestly, don't even think about whether or not you're even M to decide to stand or not. It comes down to what do YOU want?
The funk you're feeling is perfectly normal. It comes up from time to time. We all have felt that way. This to shall pass.
Lonely: Been there. Suck it up. Those that don't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
Mom's house/Dad's house: Make sure they have everything they need at your house. Yeah, this all sucks. Make it as easy on them as you can.
B'day partys: Of course they want everyone together. My C would tell you that you are doing them a great disservice to keep up the fantasy of one big happy family. It actually hurts them in the long run. She excludes you on her night, but talks you into including her on your nights? Kevin, she's walking all over you.
Sorry to be so blunt, but .......
Kevin - do you think somebody knocked on my door one day and said to me "hey CityGirl, I hear you need a new life and I just happen to be giving those out today. Her ya go!"?
No.
I had to fight and claw to get the life I have now. And to be blunt I had lots more obstacles than you. Two years ago I was in such a state of shock, panic, pain and distress I sometimes spent up to 12 hours a day pacing around my apartment trying to "outsmart" a day long panic attack. In fact, I never even left my house because I developed a fear of being outside my house I was in such a state of panic. In turn my lupus went wild, I lost almost ALL my hair, I lost so much weight I was under 100 pounds, I almost lost my business and things were just a disaster.
In short, I was a total hot mess.
Like you I tried to find some loophole to get things straightened out so I didn't have to do any real work. Like you, I never found that loophole. So I just had to suck it up, make some awfully hard choices, set some terrifying boundaries and get to work on ME. I did that alone (I had the support of family and friends of course) but I did it ALONE and did not have another R.
I have posted this many times and now Drew just said the same thing. You are damaging your children further by constantly creating this illusion of a happy family. Why are you willing to damage your children in the name of seeing what MIGHT happen with your W? Why?
I don't doubt for a second that is what they want but as we all know we can't always get what we want.
You have posted many times what a problem it is that your children forget things at your house or your W's house. Yes, I am sure it does suck getting carted back and forth to two homes but they have been at this long enough where this MUST STOP. It is putting extra strain on you and your children. Sit the down before it happens again WITH them and tell them you understand it is difficult to have two homes (validation) but right now it is how it is and quite simply they will need to make the best of it. Let them know there will be no more stops at Mom's to pick up forgotten items and in the future they will simply have to go without. To ensure they NEVER have to go without make them a checklist and post it somewhere so they can BE CERTAIN they are not forgetting anything when they depart your home for the week.
As far as your kids telling you they don't like your apartment. Well, when exactly are you going to start commanding respect from SOMEBODY? Again, validate their feelings but also let them know this is YOUR HOME and it is disrespectful for them to complain they don't like it.
With all due respect it sounds to me as if you are raising two daughters that will turn out to be just like your W. There is a reason your kids pitch fits, get their way on family time even though the family is no longer in tact and forget things and keep on doing it even though it causes stress... because you allow it and they never have consequences just like your W never does.
Growing up my sister and I thought my mom was AWFUL. We thought she was so mean and strict because when my mother said something she was NOT fooling around. We tested her at every turn and she never backed down. EVER. Your kids disrespect and test you and you let them. Not a good message if you want to be more than the "good guy".
I can't even comment on all the church stuff because again, IMO it seems you are looking for something that can stop this divorce train. At this point it doesn't really matter if your marriage was valid in the eyes of the church because your marriage is over. There is not one court in this fine country we live in that would put religious "laws" over the legalities. I had two documents to give my attny - one was my marriage license from NY state and the other was the "church license". He only wanted/needed the one from NY State. In the eyes of the law a church license means jack. It doesn't mean it isn't important but as far as the law goes it's irrelevant. So when your W divorces you don't spend 16 months looking into what the church thinks because even if the marriage wasn't valid in the church's eyes the law won't care. And what will you do? Spend 16 months investigating this matter to simply prove a point to your W that she had no "right" to divorce you because the church thinks otherwise? Do you think she will care 16 months after the fact? She doesn't even care now!
I am sad for you because you seem so very sad. Your posts just drip with sadness and despair. And that does make me sad for you. Sorry if you don't like it but it does. I have sat here and cried at my desk reading your posts because they *are* sad.
She excludes you on her night, but talks you into including her on your nights? Kevin, she's walking all over you.
Sorry to be so blunt, but .......
She is. If nothing else hold your boundary with the time exchanges.
You are damaging your children further by constantly creating this illusion of a happy family.
I think I might be a dissenter on this ONE issue. My H and I have discussed this, and we also think it's okay to do things together, with our kids.
However...
There has to be a good reason for us to do it together. The difference between me and Kevin is, I don't go into it thinking...please love me. I go into it thinking...please help me show them that we can be a divorced family and still be happy.
I think it is very possible for a "divorced family" to be happy but I do not feel Kevin is there yet.
I mean, his W had to sneak in to put up the Christmas stuff, sneak home to sleep then sneak back so when the children woke up it seemed normal. Maybe I am way off base but that seems like a very bad idea.
I can see divorced parents getting together on holidays (or any day for that matter) but IMO this is taking it to a different level. What good is one day of "normal" (normal = waking up with mommy and daddy both there) when all the other days they could not be further apart?
I don't know, it just seems very damaging. Having a meal together or doing an activity together is one thing but creating illusions is another especially when the children have made it very obvious they will continue to ploy, plot and manipulate to have family time.
I can't even comment on all the church stuff because again, IMO it seems you are looking for something that can stop this divorce train. At this point it doesn't really matter if your marriage was valid in the eyes of the church because your marriage is over. There is not one court in this fine country we live in that would put religious "laws" over the legalities. I had two documents to give my attny - one was my marriage license from NY state and the other was the "church license". He only wanted/needed the one from NY State. In the eyes of the law a church license means jack. It doesn't mean it isn't important but as far as the law goes it's irrelevant. So when your W divorces you don't spend 16 months looking into what the church thinks because even if the marriage wasn't valid in the church's eyes the law won't care. And what will you do? Spend 16 months investigating this matter to simply prove a point to your W that she had no "right" to divorce you because the church thinks otherwise? Do you think she will care 16 months after the fact? She doesn't even care now!
It is not about proving to W anything. She doesn't care whether it is valid or not. It is about finding out if our M is valid or not so that I know what my options are after if a D goes through. If it wasn't valid, I am free to seek out a new R should W not want to come back. If it is valid, we are married in holy matrimony regardless of what the court says which basically means I am just alone if she chooses not to come back. In the catholic church, the court is simply a legal/civil matter, not a holy matrimony matter. The court can't determine whether or not a M is valid before God. All the court can do is say that they do not recognize a legal/civil M anymore and split your finances and assets and kids lives. The church is the only one that can determine whether or not the marriage/covenant is valid before God. So I have to stick by what the church rules at least for myself to be in compliance with the authority of the church.
Yeah... and what if one of the children wished that mommy and daddy were back together for a christmas gift...
that would be like returning all their gifts the day after christmas..... thats not fun!
I agree with CG
Well, I hope for your sake the marriage as not valid. You are 34 and basically are telling me (if I am understanding this correctly, if not please pardon me, I am trying to follow all this) the ONLY way you are allowed, as per the church, to have a R after a divorce (a legal divorce I mean) is if your church marriage is invalid according to church law?
Why not just become a priest now?
Let's just say your marriage IS valid in the church and your W does divorce you. Are you saying you will NEVER have a R again because the church still sees you as married despite a legal divorce? If so then maybe priesthood is something to look into. Actually, maybe you can't be a priest since you are not pure. I grew up in a very strict Roman Catholic home (I don't practice anymore and have not for a long time so let's not get in a debate about that) but this all seems a bit staunch.
Kevin my exMIL is a very devoute Catholic. She goes to mass every single day. She has been married now 4 times. Her first 2 husbands died and the 3rd figured out she was as loony as her kids so he bailed and D her. She got an annulment through the church and is now remarried again. Its a process and does take almost a year or so, but it can be done. There are alot of divorced people in the Catholic church. If this is your holdup with the D, then you can seek an annulment.
Dude that church argument is so weak. All you're doing is using the church as an excuse of whether or not you should remain a stander. IT DOESN"T MATTER.
If you are only doing it because the church tells you so, you will fail. You will fail because your heart isn't in it. You have to do what you believe. If you make up your mind to do it because it's church doctrine, then do it positively. Right now you sound like a child - "oh I have to stay in it because the church says so."
That's why you're failing. If you're going to decide on something, do it because you want to. Not because you HAVE to. You haven't even gotten to that part.
Yes it sucks with work and all, but you know what? Take a look at the rest of the other posters. All of our sitches suck. It's just a fact of life. Make the best use of the tools that God gave you because right now you're changing into a resentful person with a "woe is me" attitude.
Like I said before, we all get in this funk. The key is to kick yourself in the ass. Note I said kick YOURSELF in the ass and get started living.
Everyone here is trying to do it for you. YOU are the one who needs to get it started. Personally, I think you need a healthy routine. Like taking an ongoing class or ongoing counselling or something. Right now, you going to the occassional game or dinner are just band-aids and ways of escaping.
Funny how people tend to use the Bible/Church to defend negative attitudes, and they frequenty overlook the scriptures/doctrines that would build healthy attitudes.
The church is the only one that can determine whether or not the marriage/covenant is valid before God.
Nope. The church can't make that determination, either.
I just did a bit of reading because this all seems very extreme, even for you.
Basically the Tribunal will declare a marriage invalid if it is determined one or both of the parties entered in to the marriage under false pretenses and did not have intent to be faithful or bring children in to the world. It is very clear in ALL the reading I have done that if your spouse cheats on you it does NOT mean the marriage is invalid as long as that was not their intent when they entered in the marriage.
The four requirements that must be met AT THE TIME THE MARRIAGE STARTED:
*Be able to exchange consent, and do so freely and unconditionally
*Consent to fidelity, indissolubility, and openness to children
*Not have any impediments to marriage
*Follow the sacrament properly
Impediments include:
Church law recognizes twelve specific impediments to marriage. They include things like coercion, being too young, already being married, blood or in-law relations, having received holy orders, being under vows of chastity, or being impotent (permanently unable to engage in sexual intercourse).
Are you trying to tell us that your W, on the DAY YOU WERE MARRIED did not agree to be faithful to you and raise children with you? A marriage cannot be invalid if infidelity happened if BOTH PARTIES agreed to all four requirements on the day the contract started.
If your W did not agree to be faithful to you on your wedding day then why in hell did you marry her? And there are all kinds of scenarios I read about regarding baptism or spouses of differing religions and the Catholic Church honors ALL marriages.
And really, if you were so concerned your marriage was not valid in the eyes of the Church then why did you wait until your W cheated on you and left you to get on this road to discovery? Do you think happy people are looking for ways to find out if their marriage is valid in the eyes of the Church?
On every site I went to it says you will need 6-12 witnesses to fill out documentation to support your case for the Tribunal Investigation. In addition to paying the fees for the Investigation (and hell, it seems some of these cases go all the way to Rome) you might be required to pay a psychologist and other professionals OUTSIDE THE CHURCH to review your case. In addition, your W will be contacted although she is not required to participate.
I am confused. The Investigation process is used to invalidate a marriage from the START of the marriage - not once some problems occur. Are you saying you believe your marriage was NEVER valid from minute 1 and you are just now getting around to checking it to the validity of your marriage? Why now?
I just did a bit of reading because this all seems very extreme, even for you.
Basically the Tribunal will declare a marriage invalid if it is determined one or both of the parties entered in to the marriage under false pretenses and did not have intent to be faithful or bring children in to the world. It is very clear in ALL the reading I have done that if your spouse cheats on you it does NOT mean the marriage is invalid as long as that was not their intent when they entered in the marriage.
The four requirements that must be met AT THE TIME THE MARRIAGE STARTED:
*Be able to exchange consent, and do so freely and unconditionally
*Consent to fidelity, indissolubility, and openness to children
*Not have any impediments to marriage
*Follow the sacrament properly
Impediments include:
Church law recognizes twelve specific impediments to marriage. They include things like coercion, being too young, already being married, blood or in-law relations, having received holy orders, being under vows of chastity, or being impotent (permanently unable to engage in sexual intercourse).
Are you trying to tell us that your W, on the DAY YOU WERE MARRIED did not agree to be faithful to you and raise children with you? A marriage cannot be invalid if infidelity happened if BOTH PARTIES agreed to all four requirements on the day the contract started.
If your W did not agree to be faithful to you on your wedding day then why in hell did you marry her? And there are all kinds of scenarios I read about regarding baptism or spouses of differing religions and the Catholic Church honors ALL marriages.
And really, if you were so concerned your marriage was not valid in the eyes of the Church then why did you wait until your W cheated on you and left you to get on this road to discovery? Do you think happy people are looking for ways to find out if their marriage is valid in the eyes of the Church?
On every site I went to it says you will need 6-12 witnesses to fill out documentation to support your case for the Tribunal Investigation. In addition to paying the fees for the Investigation (and hell, it seems some of these cases go all the way to Rome) you might be required to pay a psychologist and other professionals OUTSIDE THE CHURCH to review your case. In addition, your W will be contacted although she is not required to participate.
I am confused. The Investigation process is used to invalidate a marriage from the START of the marriage - not once some problems occur. Are you saying you believe your marriage was NEVER valid from minute 1 and you are just now getting around to checking it to the validity of your marriage? Why now?
k4,
I too find your arguments very confusing and as usual, missing chunks of relevant information. I hate it when we have to drag out pieces of info that would enable us to comment intelligently so instead, we're all playing a weird guessing game.
You never said the word "annulment" but I have to assume that's where you're going with this. There is no "divorce" in the Church. (FOLKS, That does NOT mean a divorced Catholic is excommunicated by the way.) But Annulment would make your children bastards...(nice touch). So, wth are you talking about? I actually took a Canon Law class in my Catholic law school so yes, I have informed/biased opinions. But I just don't know where you're going with this. And I would not count on one priest necessarily knowing b/c there are varied opinions within the Church. Not to preach here, but one thing I'm sure of and that I like about being Catholic is that there's more local variation than some want to admit. I like that. I can go to a traditional Latin mass and join a conservative parish or join a Sanctuary Church or study liberation theology or whatever....so what's the goal here?
You want some "get out of jail free" card or what? And fwiw,
the Church's ceremony DOES matter legally in the sense that the state vests the power in the Clergy to sign off on the marriage license. We were m in the Church though my h is not Catholic. We had no justice of the peace doing the ceremony. We had a priest and HE signed the license so the state and the church do overlap some. Also there is such a thing as a LEGAL annulment which I can tell you now, you won't get. Period. Unless of course you forgot some HUGE issue to tell us....but it'd have to be damn big. Like was she or you married before and STILL married so that you are bigamists? I mean something is missing from this story....
The Church annulment is a different ball of wax from the state's...but good grief, why go there? What advantage do you...
OH WAIT...then you're off the hook from your very rigid interpretation of "Standing"!! And you probably think that's the only way You could re-marry IN the Church and have a mass and everything.
AND you still don't have to change or grow....you can repeat that crazy statement you made awhile ago, when you said you had
"Done everything you can to save the marriage...went to mass, praying and fasting..."
and not a word about change or growth within.... Sure, you "did everything you could to save it..."
K4, we cannot do this for you. ( In case you dont know, that means you have to do this
or it won't get done. ) I re-read some of your posts from months ago and they really do cycle through -- and then we ALL say "get help" and you don't. NO you don't,
not the help we mean. you get insulted and dismissive. It's like you won't look inside to make the real changes you must make to learn to be happy without her, or any OW, and to manage your life better.
WHY WON'T YOU DO THAT? PLEASE ANSWER....WHY DON'T YOU GET HELP FOR YOUR EMOTIONAL ISSUES? WHAT'S THE BIG FEAR? THEY WON'T CARVE LETTERS IN YOUR FOREHEAD--THAT WAS THE MANSONS....they won't make you get naked, or yell as if you are coming out of the womb again. I'm talking mainstream T.... B/C you have done Nothing life changing in the past year that wasn't forced upon you and you have not made progress on any front, professionally, personally or with your m or another R... and I can't think of one thing we've suggested, not one piece of advice can I think of, did you take.
Marrying In the Church
For the record, my brother re-married in the church 11 years ago. It was a 2nd M for both he and his wife, and they each brought 3 girls into the m, and then had another one of their own since.
Neither he nor his w sought or were granted annulments of their first m's, and they had a MASS for their wedding. Parishes vary in their flexibility and rigidity. Neither my brother nor my sil were previously m to Catholics (indeed she was married to a Muslim who kidnapped their d's and she had to retrieve them from a refugee camp overseas and she's testified in Congress and helped pass legislation about foreign abductions....but I digress--
HOWEVER I say all this K4, b/c I don't want to hear you condemn her for being a "whore" (instead of the hero I see her as, b/c she has helped thousands of abducted children re-unite with their custodial parent) or condemn my brother for dating/marrying her since you said anyone who would date a woman who was once m, is an adulterer... which you have said before about any man dating your wife
even if you do divorce. That
rigidity to me is unhealthy and unsound and weirdly stubborn. (It's also offensive) Like
you won't change or grow or do anything of substance differently in you,
but you sure as heck will stomp your feet and judge others. I had hoped that the OW you met would shake you up a tad so you would stop this. I thought a light bulb had gone off. But your new "plan" seems more like a way to avoid working on yourself and project your energy on yet another
external issue,& seems headed in that direction.
Get well K4. That is my wish for you. Above all else, get well. For without getting well, nothing else can happen. I am surprised that you can know in your heart you have been depressed a long time and yet still tolerate it. It was not the result of the m problems
b/c the depression preceded them. IT CAUSED THEM in part at least. It added to the drinking and the complacency and the job passing...and the prior inactivity with the girls that improved after the separation....all these things remain unaddressed and here we are in pretty much the same spot. Dear God, don't you want to be happy? Is it something you don't believe you can do on your own b/c you never have before? So you don't think it's a learned skill? Happiness either lands on you or it misses you?
You waiting for someone to fix your life from the outside in, instead of the other way around. (And not going to the professionals who can fix it).
Even The theological arguments only make sense when you're well enough to process that God's answer might be "no"...or that He wants you to change emotionally and psychologically, and you aren't doing that. So...forget the fasting and praying as if that's the path, b/c It didn't work. And it diverted you from the healthier path, imo.
like I said, here we are again K4. Your happiness should be AND IS....ALL up to you. And you don't see that. (Sigh) You are an enigma. You appear to be someone who wallows in self misery, while saying he doesn't want to wallow or be stuck. But remains so. This is strange. I know there are whiners in life who want to blame their h's or w's for all their ills but with you it's more like "Life for me-KEVIN sucks and I can do NOTHING about it..." even though comparatively it isn't that terrible, but you chronically sound depressed with only brief respites...
and that negative energy you put out, you get back from your life. I mean it. Check out your next social sitch and see what you put out and what you get back. I bet the OW you met that night met an upbeat K4....but your w doesn't. Not for long anyhow. She senses it's an act, and she's right. I mean it, What you send out to the universe, you get back. Do you have some Best friends in the area?
How is that 3rd path I suggested you "process"?
Be careful what you do with your m status in the church... unless you want to pull a Mel Gibson, who NOW says his 28 yr m to his wife Robin, with whom he's had 7 or 8 children, was invalid since she MAY have been pregnant when they married (with HIS kid of course). Meaning his attitude or hers wasn't fully free or there was duress or blah blah blah.....How's he explain the other 27 years and kids? And the fact that this new woman in his life just had his 8/9th child...oh never mind. HIS FATHER is a self appointed "bishop" (although married), and is supposedly giving him an "annulment" from "
his catholic" church and pretending it's the real Church doing it. If ROME gives Mel Gibson an annulment, I'll leave the Church, but I'm not counting the wacko stuff his dad is doing, as meaning anything.
I digress. But I'm not a fan of machinations to rationalize, esp when they bastardize your d's....can you think of THEM FIRST? I honestly don't believe you do. Sometimes their interests overlap with yours & you fight hard for "them"...but this isn't one of those times.
This is all about you wanting something that sounds fishy to me... Sorry. But without more info, that's how it sounds.
A whole lot is missing from what you said. So, can't give valid input and you seem to want it that way.
Rationalizing well can be scary can't it? Your stb xw does it well. Do you? K4, just to repeat, I want to see you get well this year. Do you?
j-
25mlc,
When you have a chance, could you check out my thread? I have a question I wanted to ask you.
Thanks!
The only one who can change things is you. I promise you it feels so much better to be in charge of your own life and not wait for the next hit. I just hate seeing you getting disappointed over and over again!
You know what, Kevin? In so many ways you remind me of my H. For what is going on two years he still tells me he did EVERYTHING he could to save our marriage. Note: He NEVER once in our 10 years of marriage or overall, the 13 years we were together, tell me ONE TIME he was unhappy. Every gripe he had about me (most of them made up) he never once told me during our marriage. And if he was in such dire straights he NEVER once sought help via any resources. In fact, he acted like the loving and doting husband up until the morning of the bomb.
In short: He never once told me he was unhappy, he never sought any sort of assistance to understand or change his so called unhappiness and perhaps the WORST, he played the part of super husband till moments before he dropped the bomb. What exactly did he do to save our marriage? No talking, no sharing of feelings or what needed to be improved in his eyes, no work on himself... NOTHING. He did nothing yet to him he did everything.
You are the same. You have done *very* little work yet in your mind you have done EVERYTHING. In a way that is what is most frightening to me. You think, like my H, you did everything you could have done but in reality it was nothing. The scary thing is I think both you and my H actually believe what you are saying.
Nobody is knocking your religion. IMO though it seems you are taking to to a very fanatical level in order to avoid reality. You talk about being counseled by your priest often. If you are being counseled on the teachings of the church that is wonderful but not what you NEED. I find it a bit odd your priest feels church teachings will "do the job". I mean, even the CHURCH requires "outside experts" to review the cases of invalidity.
The church does accept marriage outside of the church, the marriage is simply not considered a sacrament however it does NOT mean it is not a marriage. On every bit of info I read last night it clearly stated the CHURCH has no say over the legal divorce (civil law, child support, spousal support, visitation and so on and respects and honors all obligations).
Are you telling us your marriage might be invalid as a sacrament? If so, then really, who cares at this point? And if YOU care then why did you not worry about this before your W left you?
I told you this a few weeks ago when you posted something that actually frightened me because it sounded so severe. You have now bypassed depression and I truly do think you need medical/psychological help (JUST LIKE I DID). There is NO shame in getting it. I might not be typing this message had I not gotten it. And yes, I knew better than EVERYBODY (I didn't).
You can lie to yourself all you want (I DID THAT TOO, IT DOES NOT HELP) but you are doing a terrible injustice to yourself. You need to seek medical/psych help and tell them you are so depressed you can hardly function, you are frozen in fear, you are unable to set boundaries with anybody in your life, you have reached almost a fanatical level with the Church and are unable to establish and reach any sort of goals.
It is NOT easy to say that to a dr. I know that because once it came out of my mouth when I went to the dr. I could not believe it. But I was relieved because I was sick of living a lie. I was exhausted.
On my very worst day (when my mother intervened) I paced around my apartment for TWELVE hours trying to catch my breath. On my kitchen counter I saw a core of an apple. I sat on my kitchen floor and sobbed because I could not remember when I had eaten the apple or why it was there.
Do you think it is EASY OR COMFORTABLE to share one of the darkest moments of my life on a public message board? It is not. But I can relate.
I'm not hoping for an annullment. I am not even thinking of it as an option. What my thought process has been is that if everything comes to a final close, I want to know if the church considered us married to begin with. I hope they do.
Something was said to me recently that if my W was a confirmed catholic when we got married and we did not get married by a priest, then my W did not submit to the authority of the church which she falls under if she was confirmed. This could invalidate the M from the beginning. However, if she had publicly in some formal manner renounced her catholisism before we were married, this could also change things. If I am not mistaken, she was a confirmed catholic who left the church and before we got married, she was baptized by the church of christ. Although we were both baptized as infants by the catholic church, I was not continued to be raised in the catholic church and instead of raised in the church of Christ. Not knowing how the catholic church works with regard to M, or caring at the time we got married, we proceeded to be married in the church of Christ.
And yes, she was pregnant when we got married so I guess if someone such as Mel Gibson wanted to push for Duress, blah blah blah, I guess someone could look at that. And yes I was drinking back then, although not at the wedding or when we signed the document or when I proposed. But through out the time together I drank. I was reading somewhere that addictions can be considered to make a M invalid. I don't know.
Anyways, the whole confirmation thing and being subject to the church at that point has left me wondering if our M was valid.
It is true that the catholic church does recognize outside M's. But in the case of where one or both parties are subject to the laws of the catholic church, via confirmation, then that M comes into question if done outside the church. I was told we would need to come in and have a sacrament done to validate our M which W at this time will have nothing to do with.
I would not seek an annullment to try and have a M ruled invalid. My reason for having our M looked at would be to see if it is or is not valid if W D's me. If it is valid, then I know my position. If it is not, then that leaves me with do I try to win her back or move on to see if there is a new better R out there. But my looking into it would have nothing to do with trying to invalidate the M. Either the M is valid or it is not. There is no trying to invalidate it or trying to get out of it or trying to find a loop hole. I just want to know where it stands now that some of these things have been tossed my way leading me to wonder about the status of our M.
I want my W and family back. I'm not sure that will ever change. I am just left wondering if she is my W according to the church or not.
Again, I am not looking for a loop hole, I am hoping she really is my W. Either way, at this time, it doesn't change her position on our M.
CG, I never questioned this until recently. I never had a reason to question it prior because it had never been made aware to me that there is a chance our M may not be valid. The thought never even crossed my mind.
Stuck, I am not hiding behind anything. I am stating what has been made aware to me recently that left me wondering what my status really is. I want more than anything to have my W and kids back intact.
25, I have nothing to say about your brother or SIL. That is up to the church, not me. They are the authority, not me. I realize some of the uninformed comments I made in the past that I should not have made or questioned about other people's situations.
The only situation I am questioning now is mine. And I am not looking for a get out of jail free card. I am not looking to get out of this. I don't want out of it. But if worse comes to worse, I intend to find out just where does our M stand according to the church. I don't care what the legal system says. The church is the only one that matters. The church has divine authority to rule on M's, not the court.
There is a civil M and a sacramental M. The church simply signs off on the civil portion. If the M is truly valid before the church and God, whatever the civil courts say after means nothing with regard to the M being valid or not.
Hopefully this gives you more insight as to where I have been mentally lately. Questions have been tossed to me that I am now not sure of.
I hesitate to say things on here sometimes because if I say what has been thrown my way that has thrown me into confusion, some of you immediately assume I am looking for a free easy esacpe which is not the case at all.
K4, just to repeat, I want to see you get well this year. Do you?
Of course.
BTW, I think a lot of catholics would question Rome if they actually granted Gibson an annulment.
Kevin
You are leaving out a MAAJOR chunk of info.
The Church WILL consider your marriage valid if you meet the four points of criteria I listed above.
Where I am getting tripped up is as follows: The Church recognizes ALL marriages but it may (or may not) recognize them as a Sacrament. BIG DIFFERENCE. You were not real worried about the marriage being a sacrament in the Catholic Church when you were baptized (your W) and married via a DIFFERENT FAITH so why now? You said yourself you did NOT care. Now you do when you didn't even care enough to get married in the Catholic faith? Why, because your W didn't want to be married in a Catholic Church. That is why.
Addiction is an IMPEDEMENT and not CRITERIA.
Not being a sacramental marriage is not "grounds" for invalidity. Invalidity is based on INTENT on the day the marriage started. Not what happened AFTER.
You really need to think about this long and hard. I do not have a crystal ball but I am very comfortable saying I do believe your W will file for divorce before 2010 is over - she is waiting on both of you to move and have better jobs so she does not have to pay you support. You will have custody issues to attend to in the LEGAL fashion. If you attempt to go through the steps of the Tribunal to declare your marriage invalid you will need 6-12 outside people to submit a fair amount of paperwork to "back your case up". Do you think it will bode well for you in regard to custody issues/the law that you are so bent on finding out it the marriage was valid? Do you think that will make you look like a well adjusted, stable and capable parent? Do you think your W won't bring that up in the legal sense?
Basically you did what your W wanted (got married in a different church and you said you didn't care in your post above) and once your W decided she was done with the marriage you found religion again and are putting so much effort, based on what "you heard" to prove the marriage was invalid in the eyes of a Church you never got married in? So all this work to prove something that essentially didn't matter to you before - hell, forget "matter" you were not even AWARE of. And this seems like the appropriate path to take instead of working on you?
Are you telling us your marriage might be invalid as a sacrament? If so, then really, who cares at this point? And if YOU care then why did you not worry about this before your W left you?
It has been made aware to me that yes, it may be invalid as a sacrament. I didn't know about this before my W left me. It never crossed my mind.
You need to seek medical/psych help and tell them you are so depressed you can hardly function, you are frozen in fear, you are unable to set boundaries with anybody in your life, you have reached almost a fanatical level with the Church and are unable to establish and reach any sort of goals.
huh? frozen in fear? can't function? Just because I don't like the state of things doesn't mean I am not funtioning or I am frozen in fear. I don't consider myself to have reached a fanatical level with the church either, just trying to follow along with it and understand where I stand. I don't think by me recognizing the church as the authority that it makes me a fanatic. Don't most catholics recognize the church as the authority?
No talking, no sharing of feelings or what needed to be improved in his eyes, no work on himself... NOTHING. He did nothing yet to him he did everything.
I did talk about and share my feelings. W says I talked to much and she just wanted to duct tape my mouth shut.
Also, I have been told like I said to assume my M is valid at this point until the courts have said otherwise. Only then will the church actually look at it to see if it is a valid sacrament or not. But my priests thinking right now is that it may not be.
Anyways, latest update. W called me yesterday as I was on my way to mass after work and tells me her mother threw a fit about W trying to reschedule dinner so she could spend last night with her dad. So W put dinner back on for last night with her mom, step dad, D8, D12, her sister, her sisters BF and her neice. She told me when it was and wanted to let me know so I could join. I said no thanks, to go ahead and enjoy their dinner and I will catch up with them Friday, being tonight. She said sounds good and we got off the phone.
W calls me this morning and asks me if I want to wish D8 a happy birthday. I said yes, I did want to but was at work on a conference call from 7am til 8am and by then figured D8 would be at school. W said she is letting D8 move slowly this morning because it is her birthday. That didn't sit well with me as D8 has been tardy a few times to school, but I said nothing. I said let me talk to her. So I wished D8 a happy birthday and talked to her for a few minutes and told her I would be joining her for lunch today at her school. She said her mom is bringing cupcakes so I guess W may be there also. Not thinking ahead, I had put on a regular polo shirt for work being Friday that W has said in the past she hates. Ugg. Oh well. I will change tonight for dinner.
Kevin
If it is not, then that leaves me with do I try to win her back or move on to see if there is a new better R out there.
Again, as someone else pointed out, you limit yourself to only two choices.
You can't WIN her back!!!! She has to WANT to come back.
You can't have a better R with someone else until you fix yourself!!!
And again, I'm Catholic, but the time and energy you've devoted to this "am I married or not" issue, boggles my mind. If you would only spend a fraction of that time to get yourself straightened out, you'd be so much better off.
Of course, all of this is just my opinion.
Texas has spousal support, but only in very limited cases, so that won't stop her from divorcing him.
Not thinking ahead, I had put on a regular polo shirt for work being Friday that W has said in the past she hates. Ugg. Oh well. I will change tonight for dinner.
Kevin
Uh... Why does it matter if she hates your shirt?
Not thinking ahead, I had put on a regular polo shirt for work being Friday that W has said in the past she hates. Ugg. Oh well. I will change tonight for dinner.
Kevin
I'm literally speechless .................
You missed my point about you and my H.
My H said he did everything but he did nothing.
You are saying you did all the work on you but you have not done any work on you.
It is easy to say you did *something* and convince yourself of that when in reality you did nothing.
You say you are not stuck in fear, right? If that is the case then why can't you set a boundary? Why can't you create a goal that does not involve your W?
There is not a thing wrong with recognizing the church as your spiritual authority. Using the church to avoid working on you in the name of answering to a higher authority is a problem. If you could attack your own issues with the same vigor you are using to explore the validity of your M (when you were not even married in a Catholic Church and you said you were fine with that and did not care) things would be better for you.
Where I am getting tripped up is as follows: The Church recognizes ALL marriages but it may (or may not) recognize them as a Sacrament. BIG DIFFERENCE. You were not real worried about the marriage being a sacrament in the Catholic Church when you were baptized (your W) and married via a DIFFERENT FAITH so why now? You said yourself you did NOT care. Now you do when you didn't even care enough to get married in the Catholic faith? Why, because your W didn't want to be married in a Catholic Church. That is why.
Addiction is an IMPEDEMENT and not CRITERIA.
Not being a sacramental marriage is not "grounds" for invalidity. Invalidity is based on INTENT on the day the marriage started. Not what happened AFTER.
You really need to think about this long and hard. I do not have a crystal ball but I am very comfortable saying I do believe your W will file for divorce before 2010 is over - she is waiting on both of you to move and have better jobs so she does not have to pay you support. You will have custody issues to attend to in the LEGAL fashion. If you attempt to go through the steps of the Tribunal to declare your marriage invalid you will need 6-12 outside people to submit a fair amount of paperwork to "back your case up". Do you think it will bode well for you in regard to custody issues/the law that you are so bent on finding out it the marriage was valid? Do you think that will make you look like a well adjusted, stable and capable parent? Do you think your W won't bring that up in the legal sense?
Basically you did what your W wanted (got married in a different church and you said you didn't care in your post above) and once your W decided she was done with the marriage you found religion again and are putting so much effort, based on what "you heard" to prove the marriage was invalid in the eyes of a Church you never got married in? So all this work to prove something that essentially didn't matter to you before - hell, forget "matter" you were not even AWARE of. And this seems like the appropriate path to take instead of working on you?
Maybe I am not being clear enough. I am the one that chose to get married in the Church Of Christ. I told her I wouldn't marry her unless she was baptized in the Church Of Christ. I also told her I would not marry her if D was ever considered an option as I did not want to be D'd.
Once the M fell apart, I started questioning out of 3,000 religions which one really is right. They can't all be right as many of them have different beliefs from what Christ set up. I questioned the Church Of Christ. I questioned alot. I started looking at the catholic faith after this as a portion of my family had converted to catholic and started talk to me about why and how it can only be the one true church that Christ set up. At first I didn't believe it. But then as I looked and listened to what they were saying and showed me, I started to believe it was true. Although still not sold at that point, I further started talking with a priest and others to find out why they believed what they did and where their evidence was that it was the church that Christ set up. I won't go into more than that as this is not a religious debate, but just where I was at and how I got to where I am.
I have no intention of trying to invalidate the M. I am wanting to know if it is a sacramental M and yes, whether or not it is even valid in our case within the church if W goes through with this. I cannot find out until after the court has decided civily if we are D'd. There is a huge difference between trying to get out of it and just trying to find out where it stands. I want to know where it stands. If it stands that it is truly valid in the church, I am all for that. If it stands that it is not, then I have a choice to make, whether to hold out and try and regain W, or to just move on once all is said and done.
But I am NOT trying to prove my M is invalid. I hope with every bit of my bone it is valid in the church. But why is their harm in wanting to know the status of it now that it has been questioned in front of me?
Kevin
There is not a thing wrong with recognizing the church as your spiritual authority. Using the church to avoid working on you in the name of answering to a higher authority is a problem.
I am not using the church to avoid working on me. But dang it, I am being accused of things because I now don't know where my M stands in the churches eyes?
Kevin
Uh... Why does it matter if she hates your shirt?
Part of DBing is always looking your best.
Kevin
I was thinking along the lines of child support. Even if no support is ordered K will still be responsible for xxxx (whatever that may be) in contributions for the children (medical, education, daily expenses, activities, childcare) and it seems his W has always made more money so perhaps their obligations won't be "even" and she will just have to contribute more.
My friend was awarded 2500.00 per month in support from her H very recently in Texas. 2500.00 is the maximum amount awarded by law. He made almost triple what she did however she did leave an equally high paying job to marry him and move to TX. If I understood here that was figured in to her support. She now makes peanuts as a teacher and would have never quit her high paying job to move to Texas "just because". Also (and I think I understood her correctly) teachers do not have state tax taken from their pay but they also do not earn social security which figures into retirement when dividing assets. I *think* that is what I understood her to say but I am not 100% sure.
Either way the issue at hand is all of *this*. At this point a valid Sacrament of Marriage is a non issue. NOT because its not important but I think we all know there are far more pressing issues K needs to address.
Uh... Why does it matter if she hates your shirt?
Part of DBing is always looking your best.
Kevin
For YOU!!
You obviously like the shirt. You bought it. You wore it to work. Who cares if she likes it?!
I am thisclose to driving to Dallas to see if you are this obtuse IRL.
Stop. Please.
it seems his W has always made more money
Historically, we have made close to the same amount. At times she made slightly more and at times I made slightly more. This is the first time she has made significantly more.
Kevin
Well,
My friend whom I now know is reading this today is actually helping me in the wardrobe department and has himself pointed out, no more polos. lol.
Kevin
I am thisclose to driving to Dallas to see if you are this obtuse IRL.
Stop. Please.
LOL, SG, you crack me up. I have my kids this weekend, so this wouldn't be a good weekend. lol.
Kevin
You just said you started question faith/religion when your M fell apart. Nothing wrong with that. You said you thought about the 3000 religions out there. So it sounds to me you picked one that supports your cause.
Fine - if you are not using the Church to avoid working on you then what *are* you doing to work on you?
Yes, part of DB is looking your best in what you like. Not what your W likes. You liked your Polo shirt just fine when you put it on today. You knew your W hates Polo shirts but you wore it anyway. It is only when you learned you might be seeing her that you decided you needed to change your shirt.
DB also includes setting boundaries.
Do you think ANYBODY gets married and thinks as they walk down the aisle.. "gee, I guess if this gets boring or hard we can always get divorced"? No, I doubt it but it divorce happens.
If you want to get technical about it... you may have made the same amount historically speaking as your W but she now makes more than you. Why is that? Perhaps because she used the job you passed up as a springboard and stepping stone to higher pay.
I don't know about Texas but here that would be a consideration.
You just said you started question faith/religion when your M fell apart. Nothing wrong with that. You said you thought about the 3000 religions out there. So it sounds to me you picked one that supports your cause.
I didn't pick one that "supported my cause". I was looking for truth. I was initially against the catholic faith. I had to be convinced that I was wrong about it. I was eventually convinced after a lot of being talked to and shown things. It had nothing to do with supporting a cause.
Kevin
I don't know about Texas but here that would be a consideration.
A consideration for what?
Kevin
And I agree with your friend.. unless you work on a golf course Polo's are not appropriate work attire even on "casual day".
In closing.. your whole point in this investigation to the validity of your marriage boils down to you needing to know if you can have another R after your W divorces you. If the marriage is valid then you may not have another R in the eyes of the church post divorce due to a sacramental marriage being binding for life in the eyes of the church. Now am I getting it?
Employment history and salary are considerations for support in my state. That is why I said I don't know if they are in your state. It is not part of the criteria but a consideration as there is no set formula in my state.
And if the Church can convince you of things after much talking to why don't you offer US, the people that have stuck by you despite the fact you have shunned as at every turn, the same thoughtful consideration?
I am thisclose to driving to Dallas to see if you are this obtuse IRL.
Stop. Please.
LOL, SG, you crack me up. I have my kids this weekend, so this wouldn't be a good weekend. lol.
Kevin
Soon.
I am not even kidding. I need to meet you so I can free myself from the WTF? that resides in my brain when you speak.
What I see here cannot be the real you, can it?
I never feel any fun from you. Are you fun? Do you ever HAVE FUN?
You are addicted to your pain. It's masochistic. You need to find value in yourself WITHOUT her. When you do, she might start respecting you.
Uh... Why does it matter if she hates your shirt?
Part of DBing is always looking your best.
Kevin
As defined by you, not her.
In closing.. your whole point in this investigation to the validity of your marriage boils down to you needing to know if you can have another R after your W divorces you. If the marriage is valid then you may not have another R in the eyes of the church post divorce due to a sacramental marriage being binding for life in the eyes of the church. Now am I getting it?
Yes, you get it. Because if it is not valid as a sacrament in the church, then I can at least pursue another R down the road without question if W D's me and moves on to someone else in another M herself. This in no way says I don't want our M to be repaired. More than anything I do. But in the end, if it doesn't ever come back around, at least I would know whether or not I have another option to pursue R wise or not. I will know whether or not my M was valid or not. If it wasn't valid, I was praying for nothing. If it is valid, I don't feel like my efforts were wasted. It clears a lot of things up.
It does not excuse me from working on myself just to be clear. But it does clear up the situation of where things stand in regard to our M from the churches perspective.
Kevin
And if the Church can convince you of things after much talking to why don't you offer US, the people that have stuck by you despite the fact you have shunned as at every turn, the same thoughtful consideration?
I do. But I also want to make sure I am in alignment with where the church stands. For instance, doing things to better my ownself is something I should always be striving to do and does not contradict the authority of the church. But filing for D, does. So I have to look at what I can do that keeps me in compliance and not do what would basically put me out of compliance with the church.
Kevin
Soon.
I am not even kidding. I need to meet you so I can free myself from the WTF? that resides in my brain when you speak.
What I see here cannot be the real you, can it?
I never feel any fun from you. Are you fun? Do you ever HAVE FUN?
I do have fun. I go out and have fun with other people. I have fun with my kids. Granted I spend a lot of time worrying about what is going to happen in my sitch and when and what the outcome might be, and where I might end up at that point. Don't a lot of people in our sitches?
You are addicted to your pain. It's masochistic. You need to find value in yourself WITHOUT her. When you do, she might start respecting you.
I am addicted to my pain? No, I am not addicted to pain. I don't find pleasure in hurting. I have plenty of value in myself. I need to get back to the dance scene. Haven't been there for a while. I also like to take day trips. I have not done that in forever. I need to plan some again. Get out of town for the day and go somewhere fun.
Kevin
Where does the church stand on the other issues in your life (example: making out with somebody while you were married and standing?)
BTW SG,
I like the new name and new attitude. It fits you well.
Kevin
Where does the church stand on the other issues in your life (example: making out with somebody while you were married and standing?)
Thats a no no.
Kevin
But you did that... you kissed a woman you met in a bar while you were married and standing. So, in the eyes of the Church both you and your W committed adultery.
Soon.
I am not even kidding. I need to meet you so I can free myself from the WTF? that resides in my brain when you speak.
What I see here cannot be the real you, can it?
I never feel any fun from you. Are you fun? Do you ever HAVE FUN?
I do have fun. I go out and have fun with other people. I have fun with my kids. Granted I spend a lot of time worrying about what is going to happen in my sitch and when and what the outcome might be, and where I might end up at that point. Don't a lot of people in our sitches?
You are addicted to your pain. It's masochistic. You need to find value in yourself WITHOUT her. When you do, she might start respecting you.
I am addicted to my pain? No, I am not addicted to pain. I don't find pleasure in hurting. I have plenty of value in myself. I need to get back to the dance scene. Haven't been there for a while. I also like to take day trips. I have not done that in forever. I need to plan some again. Get out of town for the day and go somewhere fun.
Kevin
I know you go out, but I don't think you are putting yourself OUT there. What is the most fun you have had in the last two weeks?
Yes, you do spend a lot of time worrying about your sitch, and no, most of us do not spend that much time worrying about our sitch. I am 2 months into this, and while I would prefer to stay married, I'm okay if I don't. I love myself. No way in hell I'm going to pine away after some dude who left. Next! LOL
She left. You can't control the sitch or the outcome. Life is short. If you died today, you would have wasted the last year.
You need to let your ex-wife go.
BTW SG,
I like the new name and new attitude. It fits you well.
Kevin
Thanks, I like the name too. As far as the attitude, I have always had a major case of assholiosis. That's why I'm here.
What about the issue of abandonment in the church? When exh left me, I asked our priest what to do. He said that since exh had abandoned the marriage I was also free to move on. I think there are certain things that are acceptable to move on to another R eventually.
As far as wondering whether the marriage is legit in the church's eyes...it doesn't even seem like a issue now anyway. It would be more of an issue if you were still married (like a normal husband and wife) if I got that correctly.
it doesn't even seem like a issue now anyway. It would be more of an issue if you were still married (like a normal husband and wife) if I got that correctly.
It isn't an issue. Kevin is making it an issue because he needs an issue to focus on.
He has issues.
I know you go out, but I don't think you are putting yourself OUT there. What is the most fun you have had in the last two weeks?
SG,
I am not sure where you are going with putting myself out there. Can you further elaborate?
As far as the past 2 weeks, last weekend I went out Friday night with friends to a hangout place and had a good time socializing with all of them. Saturday I went over to a friends house and watched the Cowboys play. This week I had my business friends show up and started putting our business plan together. We ordered pizza and had a good time while also getting everyone's roles in place and the idea and what to do for next week. Believe it or not, that was fun to me because it was something we wanted to do, not something we were expected to do.
Kevin
I think "putting yourself out there" means more than going places with friends.
It means putting yourself on a new track in a healthy way.
Yes, going out w/friends is good. But it is not making your life any different other than a few hours of enjoyment and once the enjoyment is done and you go home, you are back in the same place.
I know you go out, but I don't think you are putting yourself OUT there. What is the most fun you have had in the last two weeks?
I am not sure where you are going with putting myself out there. Can you further elaborate?
Have you ever just directly answered a question without needing it to be elaborated on or clarified?
It's very passive-aggressive.
Kevin,
It seems like you have difficulties making decisions for yourself.
-You want the church to tell you whether you can have another relationship.
-You wear what your STBXW wants you to wear.
-You won't take control of your own finances, because you think your STBXW won't like it.
-You let your STBXW determine how you spend your time with YOUR daughters.
Have you ever just directly answered a question without needing it to be elaborated on or clarified?
It's very passive-aggressive.
If it is a yes or no question, then yes. If it is something that I am not quite following, then I ask for more clarity.
Kevin
It seems like you have difficulties making decisions for yourself.
At times with some things, yes.
-You want the church to tell you whether you can have another relationship.
I am not looking for them to give me permission. I am looking to see if it falls within church doctrine if things go to absolute worst case scenerio. There is a difference.
-You wear what your STBXW wants you to wear.
I try to look good for her. But I also enjoy looking good for myself.
-You won't take control of your own finances, because you think your STBXW won't like it.
I run my own finances, but I am not looking to further separate things to a finally. If she wants it, she can pursue it. I will comply if that is what she wants. I am not moving things to a closer situation of D.
-You let your STBXW determine how you spend your time with YOUR daughters.
No. I spend my time with my kids how I want. I take others into consideration when it comes to special times/events that are special to the girls.
Kevin
SG,
If you are really wanting to meet and chat sometime, I could meet you in Waco for a Saturday afternoon or evening which I believe would be about halfway between us. I don't have my kids next Saturday.
Up to you,
Kevin
I think "putting yourself out there" means more than going places with friends.
It means putting yourself on a new track in a healthy way.
Yes, going out w/friends is good. But it is not making your life any different other than a few hours of enjoyment and once the enjoyment is done and you go home, you are back in the same place.
Umm, well, in the end, don't we always go back home after a few hours here and there or a weekend or whatever?
Kevin
Yes, of course we all go home after going out. I mean you are mentally still in the same place as before you went out. I didn't mean where you were physically (at home vs. out)
Yes, of course we all go home after going out. I mean you are mentally still in the same place as before you went out. I didn't mean where you were physically (at home vs. out)
When I go home, I am no longer in the environment that was taking my mind off of things. Although I have my kids this weekend and some work to do on our business plan this weekend as well to help take my focus off of things.
Oh, and the Cowboys play the Vikings Sunday afternoon which I am totally looking forward to. I predict a Cowboys win on this one. The Cowboys have Favre's number and he knows it.
Kevin
I really do try and understand your points. Is there anyway you would even CONSIDER trying to understand mine?
What about the issue of abandonment in the church? When exh left me, I asked our priest what to do. He said that since exh had abandoned the marriage I was also free to move on. I think there are certain things that are acceptable to move on to another R eventually.
Not for me to say. I would go with what your priest tells you.
As far as wondering whether the marriage is legit in the church's eyes...it doesn't even seem like a issue now anyway. It would be more of an issue if you were still married (like a normal husband and wife) if I got that correctly.
I guess this is a matter of interpertation.
Kevin
I really do try and understand your points. Is there anyway you would even CONSIDER trying to understand mine?
I think I am understanding yours CG. The main goal is to focus on other things that I can control and accomplish in my life and stop focusing on the things that I cannot control in my life. Basically, let go and let God. Do what makes me happy without W or thinking about W because W could care less. Set a path and move forward with it. Figure out what I want to accomplish and jump on the ball and start rolling with it. Get out of this funk.
Kevin
My point was if you mentally get to a different place it won't matter where you are physically (at home, out with friends, at work, in the car).
Once you get home and you are alone in the physical sense you wont feel alone in the emotional sense.
That is all I was saying.
I am my own worst enemy.
Anyways, that is one reason I am excited about our business plan. I truly am excited about it. It was great to finally get it officially rolling. It gives me something to work on that I am hoping at some point takes off. The rewards could be great or disasterous. But it is going to be fun and a lot of work trying to put it together and seeing if we can launch it.
Kevin
I did go and have lunch with D8 today. She was excited to see me. We sat together with her friends and talked and ate. There was a lady there who I think is a teacher who kept coming over to chat with us to. She then asked everyone to sing happy birthday for D8. It was pretty cool. W had dropped off cupcakes earlier that they were going to eat in class after lunch. I also got to meet D8's teacher for the first time. Sad isn't it this far into the school year.
After lunch D8 wanted to help clean their table so she was allowed to pick one other friend to help her. Funny, wish she was that accomodating at home. lol. Anyways, after she cleaned the table she came over and gave me a hug goodbye.
It was a good lunch and no, W was not there which I was happy about. I got to spend it all with D8.
Kevin
I really do try and understand your points. Is there anyway you would even CONSIDER trying to understand mine?
Reading comprehension is hard, apparently.
In the comment that I responded to, I thought what you were asking was perfectly clear. But I've seen him use that response often.
Reading comprehension is hard, apparently.
In the comment that I responded to, I thought what you were asking was perfectly clear. But I've seen him use that response often.
Everytime you come on this thread, I am just overflowing with sensations of brotherly love from you.
Nice of you to pop in now and then and set things straight.
Kevin
Ok, so W just called and wanted to firm up plans for tonight. Since I am picking up the girls, she wanted to make sure I didn't forget D8's Nintendo DSI since she will be getting some games tonight. Then W felt the need to remind me to make sure our girls were dressed appropriately and hair done and do not look like crap. She said they will frequently dress themselves like crap. I said I will take care of it and we will see you and your dad at the specified time tonight. She said she wants them to be able to take pictures with her dad. I said ok. So we are going to Joe's Crabshack tonight. D8 wants crab legs from there. I will enjoy D8 and D12 and the food.
It is going to be very awkward to be there with W's real dad. But I will get through it and I might even get through it with flying colors.
Kevin
I'd wear the polo shirt.
I know I can't take this one seriously. Funny though.
Kevin
Ok. Dare I ask, why are you serious?
Kevin
Reread the chapter on 180's.
Drew,
I don't have the book on hand and I am not bringing a date. Actually I am bringing 2 dates. Both of my D's.
Kevin
Change the dynamic. Throw HER for a loop for a change. See what happens. What have you got to lose?
Change the dynamic. Throw HER for a loop for a change. See what happens. What have you got to lose?
By wearing a polo and showing her I still don't care about my appearance when that was a big gripe of hers prior to all of this? I'm not sure that is a 180.
Bringing a date I know shows her that I have moved on and no longer feel the need to have her in my life. But it also sends a message to her, my girls, and everyone else that I do not want to convey. While we have both done are fair share of things that are wrong in this process, I would like to think I can reflect a positive tone and image that shows where we should be, not where we could be.
Kevin
Just want to point out that, as 25 has told you a butt-load of times here, truly moving on is the ONLY way that she will ever be attracted to you again. There's no guarantee that she ever will be attracted to you again regardless...but it's pretty foolproof that if you don't truly move on...she NEVER will be attracted to you again!
I'm not trying to hurt you Kevin.
I'm on your side.
Then wear a GD clown suit or something!!!!
Kevin, those were suggestions. I'm asking you to change one thing, ONE thing in how you interact with her, that shows you have an identity of your own, one that isn't defined by her.
Have your counselor explain to you the two circles that picture a healthy relationship. It's easier when you draw it, but I'll try: One circle is you, one circle is her. If the two circles are completely separate, that's not good. In a healthy relationship, the circle's overlap, but not completely. That means you have a good thing together, but you also have your own separate identities and interests that you bring to the relationship.
Your circle is completely inside her's.
Just want to point out that, as 25 has told you a butt-load of times here, truly moving on is the ONLY way that she will ever be attracted to you again. There's no guarantee that she ever will be attracted to you again regardless...but it's pretty foolproof that if you don't truly move on...she NEVER will be attracted to you again!
I'm not trying to hurt you Kevin.
I'm on your side.
Thanks Antlers. I think I can show moving on without bringing a date to a family birthday dinner for D8. I just don't think that would reflect well in any light especially to the kids. There are other ways to show I have moved on though. By completely focusing on my kids tonight and showing no real attention to W is one way.
Kevin
Ask some of the women who (still) post to you: What's more attractive in a man:
-Strong, independent, able to handle things on his own, somewhat mysterious and intriguing ...
or
-Indecisive, passive, submissive, predictible, etc.
Drew,
The 2 circles. I understand completely what you are saying. That is exactly how a M should be. Some of both of us together and then a bit of us individually outside together. That is healthy. I'm not sure how to focus that point tonight other than not focusing on W at all tonight which is pretty much my main goal. I'm just going to try and enjoy the evening with the girls as I am very anxious about doing dinner with W's real dad given he was an initiator of the D.
At one point when I was still in our house he told W that he is thinking about coming down and dealing with me himself. Not sure what that was going to entail. But I am not looking forward to seeing him tonight.
But tonight is about D8 and not him as far as I am concerned.
Kevin
Ask some of the women who (still) post to you: What's more attractive in a man:
-Strong, independent, able to handle things on his own, somewhat mysterious and intriguing ...
or
-Indecisive, passive, submissive, predictible, etc.
Yes, I know they have answered this. Each and everyone of them. I can do the upper part of this tonight.
Kevin
At one point when I was still in our house he told W that he is thinking about coming down and dealing with me himself. Not sure what that was going to entail. But I am not looking forward to seeing him tonight.
So why did you agree to include him??!!! This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about!!!
Drew,
I agreed to try and improve R's with everyone as well as it is what D8 wants for her birthday. The girls don't know who else has been involved in this other than MIL because MIL was blunt about it in front of the girls. At times I didn't exactly hold back about what MIL was doing earlier on. That sitch has since been repaired for everyone.
They don't know that W's real dad has been pushing for this from the beginning and neither do they need to know. But D8 wants this for her birthday and I don't see the harm in improving R's if I have already started to improve them with the rest of the family. There are also building blocks that go along in this. You can rebuild R's and still DB properly.
Kevin
How do you think you can improve a R with no respect?
Your exFIL clearly does not respect you since he offered to "come take care of you" for your W. Do you think all of a sudden he does respect you? How does attending a dinner create the building blocks of respect and repair?
( 2 x 4 Alert !!!!! )
Don't use your daughters as an excuse. You're their dad. Start acting like it.
You're not improving relationships. You're ignoring Kevin's needs to keep the peace.
How do you think you can improve a R with no respect?
By being the better stronger person. By not scooping down to his level.
Your exFIL clearly does not respect you since he offered to "come take care of you" for your W. Do you think all of a sudden he does respect you? How does attending a dinner create the building blocks of respect and repair?
W's MIL didn't respect me and hated me. I have repaired that R by not scooping to the same level as she was. If you want respect, you treat people with respect. If there is a decent bone in their body, eventually they will start treating you with respect as well. If he tries to disrespect me tonight, which I don't think he will, but if he does, I will stand my ground respectfully. If he brings up the D which is a possibility when he talks, I will decline to discuss it with him.
Kevin
( 2 x 4 Alert !!!!! )
Don't use your daughters as an excuse. You're their dad. Start acting like it.
You're not improving relationships. You're ignoring Kevin's needs to keep the peace.
I am not using them as an excuse. It is D8's birthday. This is what she wants. I am not going to punish her because of feelings me and FIL may have towards each other. At the same time, because this is the situation, I can also try and rebuild a bit.
Kevin
...why give advice if someone is going to argue all the points of it?
If Kevin is doing so well with his plan...then let him.
If Kevin is not...then maybe he should open his ears and shut his yap.
just a thought.
...why give advice if someone is going to argue all the points of it?
If Kevin is doing so well with his plan...then let him.
If Kevin is not...then maybe he should open his ears and shut his yap.
just a thought.
I am not arguing with their advice. Of course, here I am disagreeing with you. Ironic. LOL.
Anyways, I am just stating my thought process. So far it has worked with other family members. If you find something that works, aren't you supposed to keep at it? Isn't that what MWD says?
The first step to repairing our M is going to have to be repairing the R's that surround it. There is a better chance of W returning someday if her whole family is not against me than there is if I repair nothing with the rest of the family. That is my thinking anyways.
Feel free to 2x4 if you disagree. Just make sure you explain why.
Kevin
If your W REALLY wanted to be with you, what her family or friends thought would be a non issue. When people WANT to reconcile or at least try and get on that path they will no matter what outside factors don't support or approve the reconciliation. That is why.
If you find something works WITH YOUR SPOUSE keep at it.
Disagree on the family member thing. Got nothing to do with your relationship with your wife.
Face the real issues, Kevin. Quit avoiding them and focusing on peripheral things like whether the church thinks you're married or whether your MIL likes you ....
Eliminate the noise. Ask yourself the hard questions. Take a good look in the mirror. Face your fears.
Man up, for crying out loud.
Do you think her family approved of her sleeping with other men? Did that stop her?
If your W REALLY wanted to be with you, what her family or friends thought would be a non issue. When people WANT to reconcile or at least try and get on that path they will no matter what outside factors don't support or approve the reconciliation. That is why.
That is a good point and I won't disagree. I think it also helps to have support of a decision to reconcile than to have rejection to it if someone starts going back on the fence about it or even moving towards that direction.
But you are correct CG.
Kevin
Do you think her family approved of her sleeping with other men? Did that stop her?
Her dad didn't care. He was for whatever makes her happy. Her mom was initially against it. I don't know where she stands now.
Kevin
Just want to point out that, as 25 has told you a butt-load of times here, truly moving on is the ONLY way that she will ever be attracted to you again. There's no guarantee that she ever will be attracted to you again regardless...but it's pretty foolproof that if you don't truly move on...she NEVER will be attracted to you again!
I'm not trying to hurt you Kevin.
I'm on your side.
Thanks Antlers. I think I can show moving on without bringing a date to a family birthday dinner for D8. I just don't think that would reflect well in any light especially to the kids. There are other ways to show I have moved on though. By completely focusing on my kids tonight and showing no real attention to W is one way.
Kevin
No longer feeling the need to have her in your life was what I meant by truly moving on.
See, you are still wishing and hoping outside influences will factor in to your W's decision to reconcile (in this case her family).
NOTHING WILL CHANGE HER MIND EXCEPT HER.
Outside factors will do nothing and if they do, the reconciliation is a farce.
Do you think her family approved of her sleeping with other men? Did that stop her?
Her dad didn't care. He was for whatever makes her happy. Her mom was initially against it. I don't know where she stands now.
Kevin
Again, you missed the point. The more important question was - did that stop her?
Ok,
So what are yall saying, drop the girls off and hit the clubs tonight? Bail on them all together and take D8 somewhere else? Bring a date and really throw my girls into confusion?
How are yall saying to handle tonight?
Kevin
Again, you missed the point. The more important question was - did that stop her?
I get the point. It didn't stop her. She was going to do what she wanted regardless of what anyone else thought or said. However, her dad did actually have an influence because she used some of his lame arguments to justify some of her decisions.
Kevin
Where in hell did anybody tell you to drop off your girls and go hit the clubs?
You would not be in this position if you had set a boundary the MOMENT your W contacted you about this dinner.
I am sorry W but having a b-day dinner with your father on my night with the children is not an acceptable plan to me. Your father's blatant disrespect towards me does not result in me going out of my way to accommodate HIM or YOU on MY night with the children. Me and the kids will be at <insert restaurant here> tonight. If you care to join us to wish D8 a happy b-day please let me know by <insert date here>. PERDIOD.
Her options then become limited - respect your decision and time or not. If not then she doesn't get to eat a b-day dinner with her kid and that is a sad little consequence of divorce.
Now all of a sudden you are worried about confusing your kids?
Where in hell did anybody tell you to drop off your girls and go hit the clubs?
You would not be in this position if you had set a boundary the MOMENT your W contacted you about this dinner.
Correct. I am in this position. I will go through with it and make the best out of it I can.
Kevin
PERDOID = PERIOD
Citygirl <---makes up words
All these assenine positions you find yourself in all go back to one issue. NO BOUNDARIES.
Now I am a little irritated. W just texted me and asked me to call her. I texted back and said I am busy and asked whats up. W texts back and asks me to call her when I leave work because her dad wants to change plans. Great. I'm not sure I am going along with any change of plans. This should be interesting.
Kevin
D8 wants Joe's Crabshack for dinner tonight. End of story. I just can't wait to see what her dad wants to change.
Kevin
W: I very graciously agreed to accommodate you and your father on MY night with the children. The children and I will be at Joe's Crabshack at 8pm for her b-day dinner. If you care to join us you are welcome, if not I will see you when we exchange the children.
Don't even find out what she wants to change.
She texted me back saying her dad wants to do tacos and home made enchiladas. I texted back saying D8 wants Joe's crabshack and is looking forward to crab legs tonight. W texts back saying we can take her Saturday night.
I haven't responded. I don't want to take her Saturday night. D8 wants it tonight and that is what we planned. That means I have to spend all afternoon and evening with W on Saturday just to accomadate her dad. Why didn't he get tacos last night? Why not today at lunch? Why not tomorrow before he flies out? Why tonight on D8's birthday?
Ugg. I'm irritated.
Kevin
Soon.
I am not even kidding. I need to meet you so I can free myself from the WTF? that resides in my brain when you speak.
What I see here cannot be the real you, can it?
I never feel any fun from you. Are you fun? Do you ever HAVE FUN?
I do have fun. I go out and have fun with other people. I have fun with my kids. Granted I spend a lot of time worrying about what is going to happen in my sitch and when and what the outcome might be, and where I might end up at that point. Don't a lot of people in our sitches?
You are addicted to your pain. It's masochistic. You need to find value in yourself WITHOUT her. When you do, she might start respecting you.
I am addicted to my pain? No, I am not addicted to pain. I don't find pleasure in hurting. I have plenty of value in myself. I need to get back to the dance scene. Haven't been there for a while. I also like to take day trips. I have not done that in forever. I need to plan some again. Get out of town for the day and go somewhere fun.
Kevin
I know you go out, but I don't think you are putting yourself OUT there. What is the most fun you have had in the last two weeks?
Yes, you do spend a lot of time worrying about your sitch, and no, most of us do not spend that much time worrying about our sitch. I am 2 months into this, and while I would prefer to stay married, I'm okay if I don't. I love myself. No way in hell I'm going to pine away after some dude who left. Next! LOL
She left. You can't control the sitch or the outcome. Life is short. If you died today, you would have wasted the last year.
You need to let your ex-wife go.
AMEN! Very FEW people pine and spin their wheels in one place for this long...very few repeat themselves and cycle through the way you do, for this long. As for the theology search, you're making ME nuts. It's BS. I've been Catholic for most of my life, though I searched some other religions as well. But to me, it's All diversionary crap and a desparate attempt at being able to HAVE SOMEONE in your life b/c you cannot be happy alone. That's just so sad.
And no you are not working on yourself. It's superficial fillers that you do. And I now believe you have no idea what I mean when I say "do the inner work"...and I don't think you understand what CG means either...after all this time that is why supergirl wants to meet you irl. The same WTH? thoughts have crossed my mind 100 times. IF it weren't for faithful saying you seem fine, I'd just think you were faking here. OR that you are some sort of weirdo who likes being stuck and miserable and sharing that with us, blow by self inflicted blow. I can't stand the crazy talk about the validity of your m. It's as if I'm arguing law with a pre-law student who can't see the forest for the trees.
j-
PS Glad you realize your prior comments about people dating others who were married before, are NOT Loving or Christ like. Ever read any of the books people
here recommended?
Wow, God has just given you a golden opportunity to establish a healthy boundary. Don't screw it up Kevin!!! Do what CG said!
I haven't responded. I don't want to take her Saturday night. D8 wants it tonight and that is what we planned. That means I have to spend all afternoon and evening with W on Saturday just to accomadate her dad. Why didn't he get tacos last night? Why not today at lunch? Why not tomorrow before he flies out? Why tonight on D8's birthday?
Ugg. I'm irritated.
I'm only here cause one of my good friends has been spinning his wheels with you.
25 years hits the nail on the head with the above, and makes me wonder if their isn't a bit of a masochistic streak in you.
The quote above sounds like a whimp.
Truley, a petulant child.
You are a parent, a dad and a man.
Man up.
Do what YOU said you were going to do with your daughter, not what some old coot who has ZERO respect for you wants...and you know what.
You want HIS respect? Stand up to him, stop bending over for him. He might not like you, but he will sure as sure start respecting you.
Tell Grandpa that Joe's Crab Shack has Crab Nachos. He can take it or leave it.
Ok,
So what are yall saying, drop the girls off and hit the clubs tonight? Bail on them all together and take D8 somewhere else? Bring a date and really throw my girls into confusion?
How are yall saying to handle tonight?
Kevin
I swear you must do this on purpose. WTH Kind of answer is this?
The old "REDUCE IT SO MUCH SO I CAN OVERSIMPLIFY AND EXTREMIZE OTHER'S VIEWS -- AND THEN PRETEND I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN --
AND I CAN BE SNOTTY & SELF RIGHTEOUS ALL AT THE SAME TIME!....crap.
Yeah K, we're ALL saying dump the b#$%^ and have sex with OWs...sure, that's it. Either be a doormat or a slut....those are your ONLY OPTIONS...
Forget that question I asked you about a possible other course of action?
I'm with Jack3...you think your plan of "repairing the r's with" her family, (meaning, I guess, they tolerate you in the same room on YOUR days with the girls and once in awhile on hers), is working so well, and they MUST want you two to reconcile, then by all means, keep at it. Don't change a thing!! Surely don't change YOU! You're perfect for your stbx w just as you are and EVERYONE in her family is seeing it all now so clearly. She was a fool to leave you. You're so different now, (or you were always fine?) that you two have lots in common now and your problem and conflict resolution skills are vastly improved as are your decision making talents....everything is great now. Good luck, Happy Graduation Day!
j-
Y'all that are spending so much time flogging Kevin (crab shack has me feeling salty)... maybe it is time to step back and let things be. J3B has a story where he tried to save someone's life once in a raging sea, but that person just did not take the extra effort when given the assistance. Some people you just cant save. I am reminded of another man named Phil who was lost...
so what did you tell your W about tonight? Did you keep your plans or change them?
Here is what happened. W called me after I left work. I told her that I will ask D8 what she wants to do because it is her birthday and she has been looking forward to crab legs all week. W got pissed. She said DO NOT INFLUENCE her decision. I said W, I have no intention of influencing her decision. I said I will lay out the scenerios for D8 and if she wants to go to the restaurant, that is where we are going. I said if she wants to hang with the family at the house, that is what we will do. I said but I will do what she wants since it is her birthday. W was mad and said to let her know. I said will do. We got off the phone.
So I picked up D8 and proceeded to explain the situation to her. I said it is your birthday and we will do what you want to do. She said she doesn't want tacos and enchiladas. I said so do you want to go to Joe's crabshack then. She said yes. I said that is what we will do. She then said but that means that the rest of the family won't show up? I said that is what it sounds like. She said then she would rather be with the family tonight than to have crablegs without everyone. I said are you sure. She said yes. I said ok. We will take you tomorrow night and we will go be with the family tonight.
I called W back and said that D8 decided although disapointed that she wants to spend the evening with the family. W said she understands and that her dad probably doesn't feel like sitting at a restaurant, blah blah blah.
Amazing how nice she was once she was told D8 will give up her crab legs to be with the family tonight and see W's dad.
So yes, a boundary was set. That boundary was as long as it is D8's birthday and it is on my time, I will let D8 decide what she wants regardless of what W wants. By the way, I failed to mention I did this last week to and W got pissy about it, but I didn't budge.
So I guess we will head over to W's sister's house and do tacos and enchiladas with her dad and family. But W knows that I was not going to do what she wanted regardless of what kind of fit she threw.
It is pretty crappy that they changed like this on D8. But hey, I let D8 make the call, not them. So I guess we will see how tonight goes.
I will respond to previous posts later. I have to get ready to go.
Kevin
Amazing how nice she was once she was told D8 will give up her crab legs to be with the family tonight and see W's dad.
She's nice when she gets her way.
She's pissy when she doesn't get her way.
Y'all that are spending so much time flogging Kevin (crab shack has me feeling salty)... maybe it is time to step back and let things be. J3B has a story where he tried to save someone's life once in a raging sea, but that person just did not take the extra effort when given the assistance. Some people you just cant save. I am reminded of another man named Phil who was lost...
Kerry, can you refresh my memory? I think I recall that guy but last time I checked, if it's the same one, he was sooo "NOT around". (Is he the one who went off the deep end?)
j-
PS But I take your point.
I'm here and so ready to leave. When W comes in the room, I just leave and go into another room. I just don't even want to talk to her.
Kevin
The first thing W's dad said to me when I arrived is how is the single life treating me. I looked at him and said it is what it is. He didn't say anything else about it the rest of the night. Now we are all sitting in the living room. I honestly have nothing to say to W. She will say something to me and I just don't care. I will say that everyone is being friendly. I just don't want to be here. As soon as W starts talking, I just tune her out.
Kevin
Kerry, can you refresh my memory? I think I recall that guy but last time I checked, if it's the same one, he was sooo "NOT around". (Is he the one who went off the deep end?)
I dont think LostPhil went off the deep end - he may have already been there. The similarity was that he would always defend and argue his way to posters instead of actually taking their advice. He had a good chance to save his marriage as his W was not in any A.
So I finally ended up leaving last night. The girls wanted to stay the night there so I let them. W's dad ended up being friendly the rest of the night. I told everyone goodbye except W. W came up to me and wanted to talk about exchanging the kids in the morning. They were all going to go to breakfast. I was invited. I said I don't care. We will talk in the morning. Then W offered me cake to take home kind of laughing since there were 2 cakes. I said no thanks and walked out without any further acknowledgement.
So this morning I get out of the shower and there is this loud banging on my door. I am wearing a towel wrapped around. So I go to answer the door and there is W. She wants to drop off the girls. I say ok, leave the door cracked and walk off. Then W and girls come in and W comes over to me and starts talking about their breakfast, etc. I say ok and head into my room. W follows me into my room and continues talking about how the day should go and wanting ideas on what else she can get D8 and who is coming, etc. I'm like ok. So she keeps talking. Keep in mind I am in my towel and in my room. So finally I sit down on the bed and then she starts talking about her job interviews and what she is running into and then wants to offer me any help on questions I might have for a lead I got last night from a recruiter on a BSA position. I tell her I am doing the research to answer the best way. She wanted examples of questions I was getting. I didn't really divulge any. So she keeps on talking. Finally she decides she has to go. By this time I am thinking, I am pretty much ready, all I have to do is drop my towel, a quicky would be a good way to start the day off. But I don't say this.
So she finally starts to head to the door. Looks a bit at my teams business plans we have started since it is in the dining room of my apartment. So I quickly say I am also working on that and we are trying to launch by january 1st 2011. I don't say anything further. Oh and she tells me she has a friend with a lot of money that wants to buy our van from her and donate so she just needs me to sign the title. I say ok. I don't care about the van at this point anymore. She tells me she would like for me and the girls to be at her place by 12:30 so she can dress D8 for her party. That is fine. Then she finally leaves.
So now my girls are getting a shower and I am getting ready and we will be heading out soon to start the full day. It will be a party for D8 and then Joe's crabshack after for dinner for D8. I am guessing it will just be W, my girls and me.
I think last night when W's dad asked me first thing how is the single life, that just kind of set the tone for my mood the rest of the night. What kind of crappy question was that knowing he was an originator of pushing for us to D.
I don't know. I have things I need to accomplish and I don't want W's help in doing it. I want to say I did it on my own. I would like to prove to myself for a change that I can succeed at things without her.
Not that D8 will read this. But...
HAPPY BIRTHDAY D8!!!!
Kevin
Deep down inside I still love W. But I am tired of being around her while she is living another life. I am finding myself not wanting to be around her until she has an interest in us again.
Is that normal?
Kevin
So this morning I get out of the shower and there is this loud banging on my door. I am wearing a towel wrapped around. So I go to answer the door and there is W. She wants to drop off the girls. I say ok, leave the door cracked and walk off. Then W and girls come in and W comes over to me and starts talking about their breakfast, etc. I say ok and head into my room. W follows me into my room and continues talking about how the day should go and wanting ideas on what else she can get D8 and who is coming, etc. I'm like ok. So she keeps talking. Keep in mind I am in my towel and in my room. So finally I sit down on the bed and then she starts talking about her job interviews and what she is running into and then wants to offer me any help on questions I might have for a lead I got last night from a recruiter on a BSA position. I tell her I am doing the research to answer the best way. She wanted examples of questions I was getting. I didn't really divulge any. So she keeps on talking. Finally she decides she has to go. By this time I am thinking, I am pretty much ready, all I have to do is drop my towel, a quicky would be a good way to start the day off. But I don't say this.
How hard would it have been to say "W, I'm in the middle of getting ready for my day. We can talk later." and show her to the door?
Wait, I forgot who I was talking to.
I wasn't going to comment on the quickie idea, but I have to say: that's really pathetic.
You are the king of passive-aggressiveness. I salute you.
Passive–aggressive behavior (negativistic personality trait) is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations.
It is a personality trait marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and passive, usually disavowed resistance in interpersonal or occupational situations.
It can manifest itself as learned helplessness, procrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible. It is a defense mechanism, and usually only partly conscious.
Thanks TrentC,
Kevin
I wasn't going to comment on the quickie idea, but I have to say: that's really pathetic.
Perhaps I should have said... W, if you are going to keep talking in my bedroom, perhaps I should get something out of this to.
Kevin
If you are tired of her crappy behavior then don't allow it anymore. It is SO simple. You cannot control her but if you set boundaries her crap behavior will not be a part of YOUR life anymore.
At the very last, after this latest disaster you should be telling her: W: This will NOT happen again. I will no longer alter plans to accommodate you or your family on my weekends with the children. If a special day (b-day or whatever) happens to fall on my time I will make plans as I so choose.
In a matter of 24 hours your wife has:
*Changed plans on YOUR night with the children and as per usual, pitched a hissy fit when she got the slightest indication that she was not in charge.
*Shows up at your house when it is convenient for HER and has so little respect for you that she just bangs on the door and assumes you will be there (alone) and you will again accommodate her.
*She enters in YOUR bedroom (personal space) and chatters away while you are in a TOWEL. Attempts to extract information from you about your employment (don't think there isn't a reason she is doing this) and you TELL her everything she wants to know.
*Leaves you with the grunt work of getting the kids showered then basically tells you to bring them back to HER house because you are too stupid to dress your OWN CHILDREN properly.
*She ruffles through papers on your table that don't belong to her and without having to do any digging, you spill all the details despite the fact she should not be TOUCHING anything in your home.
Oh, and part of the reason she acted nice and interested about your job was simply to throw you a bone so you would do what she wanted about the van.
Wow, she sounds like quite a prize. If you are so tired of her and the sh*t she pulls then STOP LETTING HER.
Isn't this the same woman that won't even allow you in HER house unless she has approved it? Fine, that is her boundary. Yet you are okay with her barging in unannounced to boss you around, invade your personal space, look at YOUR stuff without permission and leave you with the grunt work in regard to the children. All on YOUR day with them?
Hi, I am responding to your question of me being a WAW and how far gone I was and how long it took me to get back.
Perhaps everyone thinks their stitch is different, but as we read the newcomers threads we don't find too much different in the the WAW who left her H for OM. Some don't have OM and just want to get out of a lousy MR and try to find happiness in the time they have left.
However...my sitich really was a bit different (lol). Oh, the signs and actions on my part weren't that different, but.....well, let me start over. I don't want to bore you and I'll try to keep it short, but if you know much about me, you'll know that's difficult for me to do.
The thing that seemed a tad unique about my stitch was I thought I should have been past the age for any of that sort of thing ever happening to me. I was in my late 50's. (Shhhh....don't tell anyone on the board. Just kidding. I kept refering to my age until some of the ones who used to be around at that time...threaten to gang up on me and beat my behind if I didn't stop.)
I was raised in a very strict, but loving Christian home. I did not have many material things growing up, but I was given a wealth of spiritual inheritance from my parents. I wanted my parents to be proud of me, so I conducted myself with honor and walked the straight & narrow all thoughout my growing up years. Then I got M to a wonderful young man. We both were virgins when we M and I felt that was pretty special. I just knew our M would be perfect! Wrong.
From the day after we M, problems & troubles began knocking at our door and I couldn't possibly begin to tell it all and it isn't necesarry to do that. Just take my word for it....we've been through the mill. Had my first baby ten months after we M and I was such a child myself that I was no where ready to be a mother! Suffered from Post-partum depression but they didn't even call it that back then. Doctors called it the baby-blues and I didn't know it could hang on for so long.....but another subject.
I did suffer with depression throughout our M. I even left my H for a few days when our baby was still little. I know it was b/c of the effects of my hormones being messed up. I was so desparately unhappy.
Anyway, we raised our family in the Church and I threw myself into trying to be the kind of W who did all this stuff like the "Total Woman" classes taught, and the "Light His Fire" teaches. When I was younger it helped, but it still wasn't what it should be and I was unhappy.
The one thing my H always threw in my face was that we didn't have sex often enough. It started when I was pregnant (due to being so painful for me to have sex) and after my first child was born....and I realize now that my hormones were out of balance...and stayed that way all those years, but in this rinky-dink town there are no doctors who help women like that. I didn't even know about all that until I started hearing it on TV and begin to do some research. That was not until recent years. Then I couldn't find a doctor to help me until this past year.
My H was a very quite (too quite) man. He was never involved in any "fun" things nor did he socialize with other people very well. He would not talk when he came home from work and all he seem to want to do was watch TV. He never talked about his feelings, and being a female...that's what I wanted to discuss. So, I went all those years that my emotional needs were never met. I tried every way I knew to reach him and let him know what I needed from him....and each time all he could say was if we had more sex it would take care of everything else. Can you imagine how that turned me off?
As the years went by and I kept praying and begging God to give me the feelings for my H that a W should have, I finally.....FINALLY begin to feel desire and would initiate having sex with my H. That was very hard for me b/c that just isn't "me", but he had wanted me to--so I was trying. For the first time in our M, I felt like we were going to finally have a "normal" sexual R. Then......wham! My H just stops! No explanation.....nothing. If I asked, he didn't give an answer. Remember, he didn't talk. He could just stare at the TV and pretend I wasn't in the room. It caused a lot of resentment in me b/c he had blamed me for decades about rejecting him and not giving him enough sex. Now when God was finally working that out for me.....well, you get the picture. Talk about thinking "how ironic"!
So much stuff happened between all those years that I can't go into, but my H had stopped sleeping in our bed. In fact, he would stay up watching TV when we first M and when we had sex, he'd get back up to watch TV and I would stay in the bed. He did that thoughout our M and I asked him to go to bed with me at the same time as I did b/c it was important to our R. I saw him as stubborn and selfish for not at least trying to compromise about that. If he wanted to get back up after I went to sleep....fine. So, my emotional needs were not met through physical intimacy or through verbal communication.
Okay, gosh I've go to start finding a way to get this narrowed down. I actually began to withdraw more and more from him. Over time, my respect for him grew worse by the the year. That's a long story, too. He was passive, and I hated it. Still hate it, but he's done a completet 180 on himself where being passive is concerned!
We both suffered from some health problems. Mine is chronic and he even finally used my conditon and the fact I never felt good as the excuse as to why he stopped having sex with me.
So, then we had many crises that took huge tolls on us, and finally there was one that I couldn't shake. I was so depressed and he had ignored me so long until even my children noticed it. When I reached the place I could no longer do my jobs in the Church, I did not have that "outlet" and the depression and lonliness grew deeper. I began to try to find something other than TV b/c I was burned out on all those stupid shows. I started playin an on-line Internet game. If anyone tried to flirt, I immediatly deleted it and found somebody else. You see, all the years I was M, I never looked at another man. Never was tempted, never flirted.....that just wasn't "who" I was. Then I met a "friend" and it was simply that and he had a great sense of humor and made me laugh. I begin to rush home from work and couldn't wait until I could contact him to play a game. That was the only social life I had had in .....well, couldn't remember last time.
Eventually the flirting started and I thought it was "fun" b/c it didn't get....you know. But then he saw I was getting emotionally involved and when he told me, I thought he was nuts. So, we had a spat and I deleted him. That's when I discovered that I had a "need" that I wanted filled and I was going to find somebody to help do that. So, I began to flirt with others and one thing led to another until I was "lost". I was so deep in a fogged out state of mind that I didn't even know who I was anymore. I couldn't even think normally. And the crazy thing is that due to my fogged out mind....I didn't have enough sense to realize this was all going to show up on the computer.....and most of all, is showed in my behavior. A blind man could tell something was going on!
My H confronted me about my activity on the computer and he had looked at the history and knew everything. I was embarrassed. I was crying. He was sweet and told me he loved me and knew I wasn't myself and that I was addicted and that I had to go delete every contact I had made. I asked him if I could tell them good-bye. He told me yes. I was crying like somebody had cut my heart out. But I sent an IM and told each one bye. I went to bed thinking....that was that and my life was dead.
A couple of nights latter, this box pops up while I'm on-line and it's from one of the male contacts I had met. I don't know why or how he was able to do that, but probably had a way of still hooking up on line. Anyway, I grabed him like a person who was drowning. And.....that was the beginning of my EA. Those other men I was flirting with was just fun & games to me. Inappropriate behavior, but I wasn't serious about any of them. But this one, I opened up my feelings & allowed him in.
My H found out. Told you, I was so stupid and thought my H didn't know enough about computers to find out, but I was wrong. He snooped! He had OM investigatetd! So, he confronts me again, but this time he was no Mr. Nice Guy! H lost his tempter with me for the first time in our M. I left the house and figured that I was leaving for good. I did not say one word to him while he was yelling at me and I didn't say anything when I left. But he knew where I was headed.....to my mom's. So, he calls her before I get there and tells her I'm coming and to just make sure I tell her "everything". That has been so hard for me to deal with and that's why I had a hard time coming around to the principle of "exposing the affair" b/c I know how it affected me when my mom found out.
Due to the other "crises" we were having at the time of this disaster......I decided I best not stay with my mom right then and go back home. The next day, I was so upset that I had to take off work. We talked, but didn't resolve anything.
It went on for a long time. I did not stop contacting OM.....I just figured out a way that I could do it without being caught. It was horrible. I never want to experience what I went through! I couldn't stand the sight of my H. I couldn't breathe if he came into the same room where I was. I stayed in one end of the house and him the other. We said as little as possible to each other and of course, he was well practiced at that. He was watching my computer activity and thought that I had stopped contacting OM. But I hadn't. And, OM was pushing for a PA. Oh, btw, OM lived out of state, but he had a very nice job and could arrange to meet me anytime I gave the word. But, I kept putting off.
Now, here's the thing different in my stitch, ....I was ready to walk out, and had even discussed in length with OM my plans of where I would live, etc. You might say that I had my hand on the door knob ready to leave. Something.....(God)....reached my deepest part of my soul and reminded me that this is not who Sandi is! Oh I tried very, very hard to stay in my fancy dream world I had created for me and OM. I had even went as far as to tell my kids that H & I were having trouble and I was
thinking of leaving. I would try to imagine how I could get them to accept OM in time. Sickening!
Kevin, I was a grandmother and here I was dreading to see entering into my 60's b/c it meant I had lost my youth, my looks, my sex appeal, etc., etc. Never had my age been a problem in the past. Never was like some women who freak out at turning 40, not even at 50.....but then wow. It just hit me that I was old. Having physical limitation didn't help me feel any younger, either. And when I started receiving all these flirtatious contacts and they would see me on the webcam and carry on about how "beautiful" I was.....yada, yada, yada....and I just felt like somebody had given my ego a big piece of chocolate cake! That was what got me pulled in and addicted. And as long as the OM was giving me that ego food.....I loved it and couldn't get enough. Or...so I thought. Maybe there comes a time when it's all on line that you just keep saying the same stuff over & over and it has no depth anymore. He wanted PA, and I knew if I ever went to PA that there would be no turning back....ever. I would forever be changed. That is what really kept me from doing it.
So my soul was in tourment and I began trying to find a Christian chat site and the one I did find was a joke and I told them what i thought about them and left it. Then the next place I stumbled into was here. Maybe God pushed me and I stumbled. Oh, I was so rebellious and my heart was far from being ready to give up OM. But, thank God, I had the right people on this board to find me and talk to me and kept talking to me until I finally was free of OM and was working on my MR. It was so hard, Kevin. I was in such a mess and was embarrassed that a person my age would be carrying on in an EA and having symptoms of a MLC when I was past what I considered ML....
Since then, I've read others doing the same thing. I read some in there late 20's wondering if their S is in MLC, so I don't think it has to be mid-life in age.....it is simply a enternal life crises. Thankfully, mine did not last as long as I've read about others and most of the people who read my thread didn't think I was having a MLC. I have thought back about the time I felt the symptopms starting and until I begin to pull out of the fog and start to feel more myself....and it was probably 3 years of it. But it was like a slow incline and then slowly declined. Anyway, if I had not had this board, I don't know what kind of mess I would be in today.
My H did not have DBing skills and it was mostly me who had to make the decision to do what I knew what the honorable and right thing to do. I had not been acting like a Christian, but I knew myself well enough that I could not live the rest of my life without my God in it. And, I was pretty sure He wasn't going to be in it if I continued down that road with OM. I don't usually tell people how long it took me to stop contacting or this or that b/c it's too discouraging for them. They start measuring it against their own stitch and that's not good. My heart goes out to LBS who have a WS in MLC b/c if it had been the other way around in our case.....I don't think I could have endured it. And, I have to tell you that if it had not been for the Lord intervening, I ......well, I will always believe He rescued me. However, I don't usually tell people this, Kevin, and it's not to keep praise for the Lord, but it is so that people won't get the idea that they have to do work. I had to do work.....plenty of work. I was the WAW and I had to make changes and my H didn't have the information your guys are getting on this board, so it wasn't easy. I felt like I was the only one on this boat that looked like mine. I guess what I'm saying is that I want to offer people hope and encourage their faith, but not to the point they think they just get to lay back and say, "Well, if God wants us to be together, then He'll have to change her mind and make her come back home." I know what some people mean by when they say that......but I also see a certain amount of not wanting to put forth any effort on themselves, so that is when I usually stay clear of the faith talk. Faith is not laziness.....lol. You know what I am trying to say, don't you?
I guess I need to stop and give this a rest. I know you didn't ask for all of this history, but since I never had really talked that much to you, I thought I'd tell my story. At least part.....lol. Hope I didn't bore you. The length of this post just may have broken my record!
Thank you so much for the wonderful post, Sandi. I don't often read longs post but, I made it through:-)
I liked the part about faith. My pastor always says even Peter had to make the effort to get out of the boat. Sometime faith means getting your feet wet.
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself, Sandi.
Thanks Sandi.
It didn't bore me at all. I found it very insightful. So even though you were the WAW, you were still the one that had to put in the work to change things. And you did. And your H finally came around because of changes that you made in yourself. That is pretty inspirational.
I agree that we can't just have faith and expect God to fix it for us without us having to put in any of the work. And the work is definitely not easy especially maintaining it every day and not letting up no matter what circumstances look like.
I appreciate it Sandi,
Kevin
If you are tired of her crappy behavior then don't allow it anymore. It is SO simple. You cannot control her but if you set boundaries her crap behavior will not be a part of YOUR life anymore.
At the very last, after this latest disaster you should be telling her: W: This will NOT happen again. I will no longer alter plans to accommodate you or your family on my weekends with the children. If a special day (b-day or whatever) happens to fall on my time I will make plans as I so choose.
In a matter of 24 hours your wife has:
*Changed plans on YOUR night with the children and as per usual, pitched a hissy fit when she got the slightest indication that she was not in charge.
*Shows up at your house when it is convenient for HER and has so little respect for you that she just bangs on the door and assumes you will be there (alone) and you will again accommodate her.
She assumed I was in the shower and couldn't hear her is why she was banging on the door. Truth is, I was and actually couldn't hear her.
*She enters in YOUR bedroom (personal space) and chatters away while you are in a TOWEL. Attempts to extract information from you about your employment (don't think there isn't a reason she is doing this) and you TELL her everything she wants to know.
Failure on my part for not setting a boundary right there.
*Leaves you with the grunt work of getting the kids showered then basically tells you to bring them back to HER house because you are too stupid to dress your OWN CHILDREN properly.
I guess she had other ideas of how she wanted D8 to look. But point taken.
*She ruffles through papers on your table that don't belong to her and without having to do any digging, you spill all the details despite the fact she should not be TOUCHING anything in your home.
She didn't touch any of it. She just looked over at it. And yes, I did give her a general idea of what I am working on, but not enough for her to be able to do anything with it.
Oh, and part of the reason she acted nice and interested about your job was simply to throw you a bone so you would do what she wanted about the van.
The van I had already agreed to sign over previously. I just hadn't done it yet because I haven't been given the title to sign over to her.
Wow, she sounds like quite a prize. If you are so tired of her and the sh*t she pulls then STOP LETTING HER.
Isn't this the same woman that won't even allow you in HER house unless she has approved it? Fine, that is her boundary. Yet you are okay with her barging in unannounced to boss you around, invade your personal space, look at YOUR stuff without permission and leave you with the grunt work in regard to the children. All on YOUR day with them?
I know. No I wasn't overly thrilled with it. But I didn't set a boundary either. It does seem like when I set the slightest boundary, she tries to push on it more. Interesting.
We did D8's birthday party. It went very well. We had plenty of kids show up and D8 had a great time. She got to eat pizza, play lots of games, got lots of presents, etc. She had a good time.
During this time I had dropped off D8 to W to put on whatever W wanted her to wear. D12 and I grabbed the other presents from W's house and set out to the place to set up the tables and presents, etc. W shows up with D8 and we kind of work out a few of the details before it starts. Through out the time W would try and make conversation with me about how the party is going and D8, etc. When she would talk, I would listen briefly and comment and then turn away and focus on D8 or something else. There was one dad there so I spent some time talking to him and W spent some time talking to a mom that was there. While we were doing the games D8 wanted me and W to do bumper cars with her, so we did. We all had fun and a laugh out of it. Other than that, I just didn't want to be around her. I didn't care what she had to say. I didn't want to hear from her. I can't seem to get out of this mood of not wanting to see her, hear from her, etc this weekend. I cleaned everything up after it was over while W and D8 and D12 cashed out tickets and got some prizes. Then we went to pay and I paid half. W offered me money, I said no, I have it. Then we went to the car and I got the girls in with me and W and I split ways.
At one point she asks me if I am ok. I said yup and continued walking on.
So tonight we are meeting her for dinner for D8's crab legs and shrimp. Oddly enough I bought a nice shirt to wear on the way home for tonight. It is weird. I think about her when I am not with her. But when I am with her, I know she is not with me R wise and I just don't want anything to do with her while she is the way she is. Strange isn't it. I guess I finding myself thinking how things could be, yet when with her I know how things are and I want nothing to do with it.
So one last gathering tonight for dinner. I have not been able to put my best foot forward this weekend because I have not wanted to be around her. We will see if that changes tonight. At least D8 is having a good birthday and I am glad for her. She deserves it. She really is a sweet kid at heart.
Kevin
Kevin - your daughter is eight. She is a baby, a kid. If she wanted to wear a tutu, striped socks, a hockey jersey, combat boots and a silver crown to HER b-day party... well, that is a luxury you have when you are 8.
Who cares how your W wanted your daughter to look? Unless she showed up to her own b-day naked then tell your W to butt out.
You know what one of my FAVORITE memories (and one of my first!) from my childhood? The day AFTER my sister was born. I was 4. My mom called me from the hospital before my Gran and me came to visit. I was so excited because I picked out my own outfit (not so much my sister was born, lol!). Green shorts with white stripes, orange shirt, red high knee socks and white sandals. The photos of that day are SO funny because of how I look. See what I am saying.. if your kid wants to go to her b-day party wearing a getup like that then who is your W to tell you it is wrong? Do you get my point?
Ya. I get your point. And I agree. Even D8 was annoyed that her mom wanted to put her in an outfit of her own choosing, but she comformed for her mom.
W also offered me money this afternoon to pay for D12's dance tonight after dinner. I said no thanks and I have it covered. She said are you sure. I looked at her and said yes. She said ok.
What is this charity all of a sudden? I am not taking any of it, but why does she keep offering it all of a sudden?
I am not looking forward to spending another meal with her tonight. But this is for D8.
The point is here like yall have been saying... why do I want to be around someone who doesn't want me. And the truth is that I am finding when I am around her and know she doesn't want me, I don't want to be around her.
Kevin
Here is what it really is with me.
I want her to want me, but I do not want to be around her if she doesn't want me. So while I try to put a good foot forward when around her, I am more and more feeling the unwantedness when I am around her and it is turning me off from wanting to even put a good foot forward in front of her. This is leading me to start showing more of an "I don't care" attitude towards her.
It bugs me that I am heading in that direction because I know when I am not with her, I wish things would be different. But I can't seem lately to care about anything she has to say when I am with her now.
Kevin
Think it may be called resentment. Seems like it is more pronounced when you "have" to do something with or for your W. Once you have established and enforced clearer boundaries that will start to go away.
C-Bart,
I think you are right. I thought about what you said and I agree. That is how I have been feeling lately is resentful towards her.
D12, D8, and I met W for dinner. W and I ended up splitting a few appetizers together that we thoroughly enjoyed including oysters. During the evening she informed us that her mom and stepdad will be selling the house they are in and moving back into the house that W is renting this summer. So W said she will definitely have to move. This didn't go over well with the girls. D12 blurted out she isn't moving and W said Hey. At that moment before W continued I got her attention and whispered to her go easy on them. This isn't the best news for them to hear right now. So she calmed her demeanor and proceeded to explain that she doesn't have a choice and that they will make new friends. W said she is planning on moving to Plano which is where I am planning on moving to and that she and I will move very close to each other. I didn't comment. She explained the benefit of not being in a school district that requires uniforms anymore. The kids liked that as did I. What a pain that has been.
W started getting texts and texting back towards the beginning of the meal and then decided to explain to me that she was supposed to go to a symphany or something with a friend she forgot about. She kept texting and then said there will be other shows for them. I said back "good for them" and then proceeded to talk to D8. I think W got the message. She put away her phone after that.
At one point she proceeded to start what I thought was cussing at D8. I quickly said please don't cuss at her. She said she had said another word that I misheard and I said ok. W has had a very bad history of cussing our kids out regularly. I had addressed it in the past and was met with total resentment for it. But tonight I didn't seem to get met with that even though I misheard her.
I mentioned that I am thinking of getting a newer car as mine is a 1998 and does have a dent in it in the bumper and is just kind of older looking. W agreed and said hey, it isn't like we don't drive them into the dirt anyways. I said ya. I could put the money into fixing it, but it may just be time to get something newer and nicer that doesn't require maintenance so much. She was onboard with that.
The evening went pretty well. At one point she stunned me by informing me that she is going back to church and is also joining the church quoir. This was big to me. I had been praying that God would lead her back to him as she has been so resistant to having anything to do with church for so long now. It was like a prayer answered. He is leading her back in His own way. I thought that was wonderful news. I didn't reveal any of my thinking to her other than I told her I think it is great that she is joining choir. She seems really excited about it. She says she is branching herself out and trying something new. Then W informed me that D12 and D8 would also be doing quoir on Wednesday nights. I said oh? This had not been discussed with me. I'm not sure I was overly thrilled about it either as D12 already does choir on Monday nights downtown. W proceeded to tell me that they are not required to be there when I have them. Good. I'm not sure I am always going to want to take them. But I will consider it if the girls want to go.
D12 started talking about the shirt that I wore tonight and I had considered wearing a black vest with it. D12 told W that she said not to because I would look like a waiter only missing a tie. I agreed and did not wear the vest. Then D12 told W that she helped me pick out the shirt. W knew this was not the case as D12 was not with me when I bought it today. Then D12 said she helped me pick it out to wear tonight. This was not true either but I didn't comment. So as we are leaving W tells me she really likes the shirt. I said thanks and I had decided sometime back that it was time to dress better. W said yes and that people percieve me based on how I dress. I agreed.
W asked me to come by her house so I could get some clothes for Mass for the girls tomorrow since they have a tendecy to leave their clothes at one place or the other at times. So I dropped D12 off at her school dance and then me and D8 went to W's house and got some stuff to bring back over. W and I joked and laughed about a few things as D8 and I were leaving. We said goodnight and D8 and I drove off into the night. W had said she was tired and was just going to get a shower and lay in bed and just acknowledge people talking to her on IM but not really chat. Information not needed for me. But ok. She is definitely hooked on IM and texting to a huge extent. It rules her life most of the time and has since this whole thing began.
Well, the birthdays and holidays are all out of the way now. She is interviewing for many jobs and I am also job hunting. I guess we will see where things go next. I am not sure I will hear from her much now.
I was able to pretty well keep from feeling resentful tonight and I was glad about that.
Kevin
I think you did pretty good for the most part, but still got a little too personal. Its tough considering the situation with having to spend so much time together. Now that the birthday is over can you back off the together time and get back to normal now? I really hope so!
I forgot to say....
GO COWBOYS!!
Ugg, I don't remember the last time I saw a Cowboys playoff game as bad as that. They shouldn't have even bothered showing up. Oh wait, they didn't show up.
Kevin
Ugg, I don't remember the last time I saw a Cowboys playoff game as bad as that. They shouldn't have even bothered showing up. Oh wait, they didn't show up.
Kevin
Yeah that was sad!
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Kevin,
Just something to consider: Not sure about Texas, but if you start your new business, she may be entitled to half of your share.
Ok..that was so funny Drew! I think Kevin got the point after the first 5 times you posted it!!! LOL
I also think he is right...especially if there is no legal separation or D filed.
Thanks Drew,
I got the message.
Kevin
With the addition of choir, I hate to say it, but you should follow your W's example of GAL. Just not the cheating part.
I want her to want me, but I do not want to be around her if she doesn't want me. So while I try to put a good foot forward when around her, I am more and more feeling the unwantedness when I am around her and it is turning me off from wanting to even put a good foot forward in front of her. This is leading me to start showing more of an "I don't care" attitude towards her.
Maybe this is where you have to be in order to be able to detach. It's better if you can do it without resentment, but for some people, that may have to come first.....then they can finally detach.
Sorry for the repeated messages. Not sure what happened. Only meant to post it once.
With the addition of choir, I hate to say it, but you should follow your W's example of GAL. Just not the cheating part.
Ya. I am thinking about taking a day trip somewhere this coming Saturday since I won't have the kids. It would be nice to head out of town for a few hours and just get away.
Maybe this is where you have to be in order to be able to detach. It's better if you can do it without resentment, but for some people, that may have to come first.....then they can finally detach.
I don't want this to be how I have to detach. Resentment is building at times lately. If I figure 3 years as in your case, I am about half way through this.
Yesterday I took my girls to see Astro Boy at the the movies. They loved it and I rather enjoyed it also. At one point, there was a sad moment in the movie of a girl trying to dial home because she missed her family and couldn't get hold of anyone. I started thinking how much I want to dial W and tell her I miss her and I just want us to be a family again. Sappy I know. Human emotions taking over at that point. After the movie we went home and I made dinner and I filled out a questionaire for a job a friend submitted my resume for. We will see if I hear back on it. I really enjoyed my weekend with my girls. Tonight W has them and I will be doing some work on my teams business plan. I am back to excercising again as well and eating healthy again. I get my girls back tomorrow night and Thursday night. I sure do miss them when they aren't here. I don't see the joy in not having my family around. Anyone who can find joy in not having their kids and family around on a regular basis makes me wonder about them sometimes. Maybe I am just wired differently.
Well, another day at work. Tomorrow is W's last day at her job, but apparently she already has one position lined up should she decide to take it. Good for her.
Kevin
Maybe I will go to fossil rim on Saturday. That really does look like a cool place.
Kevin
I am thinking about getting a Saturn Vue. I can get a 2009 for a really cheap price now since the company went out of business. As long as I have a mechanic that can work on it, it could be worth it. I could care less about warranties as they never cover what I need covered anyways.
Thinking it over.
Kevin
The problem won't be finding a mechanic to work on it. The problem might be the high price for parts if they are not readily available.
The problem won't be finding a mechanic to work on it. The problem might be the high price for parts if they are not readily available.
That is a good point CG. I will have to give that one some thought.
Kevin
I am back to exercising again as well and eating healthy again.
That's great! Exercise is probably the most important thing you can do right now. Glad to hear you're going to mass after work, and the business plans proceeding. I'd say those are 3 very important goals, keep it up.
Interesting to hear about her and church. I'd be shocked if my W told me that. You never know what's going on in her mind, but God is definitely working even if we can't see it.
To everyone wondering what Kevin is like in real life, he's fine. We had a great DB meetup for sushi just a week ago. I'd never know that from reading this thread, but that's the way it should be. We come here to vent and voice frustration so it doesn't come out on the outside.
And sandi2, what an incredible story! Exactly why I keep coming back here.
As if things couldn't get worse, my contract is ending at the end of this month.
Kevin
And I just signed another lease
Kevin
I can't tell my W this. This will be a huge blow against me in the way of career stability in her eyes. I can't believe this.
I am already talking to contacts and getting my resume out. I have a week and a half to find something.
Kevin
I can't tell my W this. This will be a huge blow against me in the way of career stability in her eyes.
Unless it's going to affect child support and/or visitation, who cares what she thinks?
I can't tell my W this. This will be a huge blow against me in the way of career stability in her eyes. I can't believe this.
Kevin
I'm going to call BS on this...It was a contract, you both are in IT, contracts end, nature of business...Isn't her's?
Kev,
Sorry to hear that. You'll have unemployment, right? Was this news out of the blue or did you expect it?
One more thing kev...I know a couple recruiters down in Dallas let me try and get in touch with them and see what they have...You will get unemployment, since the contract ended. Good thing is you were looking before this so it's not like you're just starting...
Too bad you didn't divide those finances. If you are unable to find a job right away it will be obvious as you will not be able to contribute to the "plan" you and her have now with money.
If you had your own finances it might be a little easier to keep temporary unemployment as your own private matter.
See how NOT taking action, which you view as action AGAINST your W, really only hurts you?
Sorry Kevin..I hope VD can help you out!
I couldn't care less about what W said! This happens all the time. Hang in there!
Yo CG, Kevin got some pretty clear advice from FaithfulH to NOT divide the finances, and he made his decision. You're starting to come across pissed when he follows others advice instead of yours. Helpful?
Pump your W for info like she does to you and find out what jobs she is up for. She uses you for info all the time. So, do the same and compete against your W for the jobs she has in mind.
VD,
Thanks. I can send my resume to you if it would help. Yes, contracts end in IT which we are both in.
Jon, TrentC, CG, and SO2,
It was unexpected. I had been looking for another position, but this came out of the blue. At least I have a week and a half to work with. And I have some money from savings I can pull if need be. I will also look into unemployment if worse comes to worse.
Kevin
LOL Jon - I am not pissed.
I didn't realize only Faithful was allowed to offer opinions.
Some decisions are temporary and some are permanent. And sometimes you have to change decisions based on real life circumstances. It's how life goes.
I have probably spent more time posting to Kevin than anybody. Helpful is rather subjective, no?
I think my advice is helpful. I think the people that cheer on Kevin for making mistakes that will harm his future (and I don't mean as far as the marriage goes) are not very helpful. Obviously we all think our advice is helpful or we would not take the time to offer it.
Kevin wants more than anything for his W to feel consequences. Fine. In turn though he is so busy with that thought pattern he rarely thinks of his OWN consequences. And now a big one is coming up.
When you are in the thick of your own mess (generally speaking) it is not easy to see what is obvious.
And if you would like to address me I would appreciate if you would do so in another way other than "yo". CityGirl is fine. Nicole is fine. Nic (what my friends call me) is fine. You pick.
Yo CG, Kevin got some pretty clear advice from FaithfulH to NOT divide the finances, and he made his decision. You're starting to come across pissed when he follows others advice instead of yours. Helpful?
I must have missed the post where FaithfulH advised not to split the finances.
Unemployment is extremely high nationwide. People who manage to hold onto their jobs through this recession will be incredibly lucky.
I understand that it's a shock. I'm just not sure why her opinion of your financial stability is important, unless it affects support and/or visitation.
I will also look into unemployment if worse comes to worse.
Why wait, you worked, you got laid off that's what it's for...There's absolutely no shame in filing...Heck if I was you I would start the paperwork today since you know your end date (that's what I advise my contractors to do), why would you give up that money?
I don't know if unemployment works the same in all states but here it takes a LONG time to kick in. You should file the paperwork ASAP because it could be weeks before you see any pay.
I must have missed the post where FaithfulH advised not to split the finances.
Me and FaithfulH discussed on the phone and then at our DBing meetup for sushi.
I understand that it's a shock. I'm just not sure why her opinion of your financial stability is important, unless it affects support and/or visitation.
It is just that the first time around, W used career stability against me. I can just see that coming back now.
Why wait, you worked, you got laid off that's what it's for...There's absolutely no shame in filing...Heck if I was you I would start the paperwork today since you know your end date (that's what I advise my contractors to do), why would you give up that money?
I didn't think you could file until your employment ended.
Kevin
I know where I am you can file anytime, it just doesn't become official (you get money) till your job ends...But doing it early saves the waiting period, no reason to dip as much into savings if you don't have to.
Im sure TX has an online system I'd check it out and do as much as you can to avoid delay.
VD,
Can you provide your work email address where I can email you my resume?
Kevin
Or can you shoot me an email?
Kevin
VD,
I'd be very careful about posting personal contact info. Users have been banned for doing so.
I was only going to leave it for a few minutes...Thanks for the advice though, I didn't realize that.
I was only going to leave it for a few minutes...Thanks for the advice though, I didn't realize that.
This is why the alt universe is so popular around here...
Shoot, no. I didn't get it. I think you have emailed me before though and I will search through my emails to see.
Kevin
Nic,
Not trying to pick a fight, "yo" was to try and keep things light. I keep my mouth shut with most of these 2X4's leveled at Kevin but that was over the line. Just IMO.
Kevin,
Thanks for the resume. Unfortunately I became a Texas unemployment expert last year. It happened to me a year ago last week, I went through all the same fears about what W would think.
No shame in it man, it's called unemployment insurance, UI is insurance you paid for, just like auto or home.
Go here the day you're done. Sounds like the 31st?
http://www.twc.state.tx.us/You'll get $415 a week, but you can make an additional 25% (100$/week) free and clear. Do it. Pizzas, anything. For me it was playing music at church.
This is a good thing. You hated that job anyway. Now you have 8-12 months to really decide what you want to do. Launch that new business, find something a lot better. My main drawback was losing health insurance for myself and W, but you weren't getting that anyway. So what's the big deal? Chin up man.
Why do you feel it was over the line?
Perhaps I could have articulated it better. If my articulation was hurtful then I will certainly take accountability for it.
I feel that often times WE ALL are so bent on wanting or making our WAS to feel consequences we often forget lack of action (and I include myself in this) on our part to avoid unpleasant consequences on our end goes forgotten.
Kevin gets REALLY sad when he takes a personal hit, especially when he feels his W will frown upon it. To avoid that, IMO, it seems there are many actions he can take to wipe that issue out for the long haul.
No more. No less.
Check into COBRA for health insurance also.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help. Jon, I will get that unemployment taken care of. That is helpful information. So far I have been sending out resumes left and right this afternoon since getting word of this. I have been in contact with 2 agencies. There is a lot of ground to cover. This is sink or swim time for real. This isn't a game. This is life. Unemployment will help if all else fails. But I intend to line something up as fast as possible.
Kevin
My last day of employment is January 29th.
Kevin
My advice: do not breathe a word of this to your wife. Handling it on your own speaks volumes.
But I'm sure someone will argue with me on that one ....
Drew,
I have no plans of telling my W about this. I am handling this all on my own. I am and was in agreement there.
Kevin
Not me, I'm not sure it's any of her business as long as Kev can take care of the stuff he's responsible for...
I can't apply for unemployment benefits today. It says I have to wait until I have given my agency 3 days to find me something else. I have already contacted them.
VD, can you send me an email. I am at yahoo.com and the first part is what my username on here used to be. I appreciate it if you can.
Kevin
If finances are separated, then there is not as much reason to tell her. However, finances are not split (although they should be) and it sure seems like keeping a secret. And secrets are almost always found out with much bigger fallout. Just remember Jack Tripper on Three's Company - every time he lied or kept a secret, it back fired worse on him.
I will pay my bills KerryK. But I don't think there is any reason she needs to know this right now. If I can line something up before she needs to know, it will be better I think.
I don't need to give her one more reason to doubt me. Lord knows she holds enough reasons to not come back against me.
Kevin
I am Drew. I have to survive for me and my kids.
Kevin
Baby steps, Kevin, baby steps ....
Good job.
I don't have my kids tonight so I will be able to just focus on job hunting. I checked with my previous employer and they don't have any openings right now.
Kevin
Kevin, I have a group that I think would be perfect for you. They meet Wednesday nights at Irving Bible, just down Regent from where you work. It's called Next Connect and they walk through resumes, interviews, networking, etc. It's run by several recruiters from Oracle and other places, one of which specializes in Business Analysts like you. I haven't been since getting the new job, but it'd be cool to swing by and update them. You in for tomorrow night?
Jon
I don't need to give her one more reason to doubt me. Lord knows she holds enough reasons to not come back against me.
But she already wants to divorce you. "Another" reason isn't going to change things.
You want to show some improvement? Do your damnedest to have a new job lined up by the time this contract is over. At the very least, have resumes out and be waiting for interviews.
Jon,
I can't tomorrow night, but I can definitely make next Wednesday night. That sounds like a great idea.
TrentC,
That is what I am doing. I already have 2 prospects. I will be working the rest of the night on this as well.
Honestly, I don't even have time to think about my W right now. This is actually probably the kick in the butt I needed to jumpstart myself to a better career.
W did come by to get the girls tonight. She came in and talked to me while I was making dinner. She told me a bit more about her prospects and what she has been doing the past 2 days. D8 was torn up because she didn't know if she wanted to stay with me or go with W even though it was W's night with her. I know it is hard on her.
I was completely cool through it all. I didn't let on any hints or signs about my job sitch. I just merely said that things sound good for W and hopefully it all works out well for her.
Her and the kids left and I finished dinner and have been working on my job hunt since. I have sent out tons of resumes. I am also going through tutorials tonight. I have a phone interview in the morning that I am also preparing for.
Busy busy...
Kevin
Kevin,
Great, I need a night off tomorrow. Let's plan on next week.
Sounds good Jon. I will plan on it.
Kevin
so SHE has the same problem? She's looking for work too? Not to quibble but you always said this job was temporary and I thought it was to end in December, so I'm not clear on the shock factor here or the "out of the blue" comment. But anyhow as you said, she's in the same boat, so she's probably not feeling too financially secure either?
A problem being worked on, is not a problem anymore. You're job hunting now, more vigorously....that's good. Like you said, you needed a real kick in the butt to get going and now you have it. IF you can meet your obligations, why would she need to know? For all you know, she's looking for a job she thinks you might be looking at. Take care of yourself so you can take care of your kids and don't get blindsided again.
SO yeah, this is now, and you are doing what you gotta do. Do you have any savings?
If not, I guess a few weeks/months of unemployment is in order but be careful what you choose in terms of those leases...did you already sign that lease? See if there's a clause to cancel before moving in...then see if you can extend at the cheaper place, and save by not paying a mover...just keep costs low for now...very low. For now. This too, shall pass.
Really, Since you didn't like the old job anyhow and it was temporary too, you actually are making needed improvements to your life. I hope you see that inaction leads to crap sometimes. The very thing you fear, you can bring about by letting fear control you. I think CG was making that point, among others. And given your financial sitch, who knows? Splitting finances might have been a better move. Of course faithful is entitled to his opinion and is a great guy- but you two are not in the same boat financially for sure.
No matter. You're moving along now...keep going. NO choice.
j-
K4, when you say you had a contract, were you a W2 employee or a 1099? Were you an "independent contractor?" Were payroll and FICA taxes taken out of all your checks?
If the project ended...are you sure you qualify for unemployment? Double check okay? I'm not in IT, God knows. But I got let go of an independent contractor job before, and got NO benefits, a few years back when the project was finished. Kind of sucked but the pay was originally good enough to say yes. And I never looked into unemployment (my issue) but was told in passing I would not qualify. Maybe you mean "project" when you say contract and not "contractor" which is a legal/tax term for my purposes here.
Just asking...& hoping you get something you like MORE.
This may be a blessing in disguise and it'll help YOU to look at it as such. Seriously. Put out positive energy into the world and not desparation....you have had better jobs than you're leaving, right? Okay, say only good things about the other jobs and how happy you are to be looking to take on more responsibility and learn more and blah blah blah =you're a great IT guy...etc.
j-
I will pay my bills KerryK. But I don't think there is any reason she needs to know this right now. If I can line something up before she needs to know, it will be better I think.
I don't need to give her one more reason to doubt me. Lord knows she holds enough reasons to not come back against me.
Kevin
sorry for butting in... but you are still trying to reconcile this relationship, yet will lie, hide or keep things secret as you see fit?
It is because of behaviors like that in which people find themselves on this board in the first place, Remember.
food for thought.
Kevin this may be a situation where you are forced to do what is best for you and your girls now independent of the W! May be a great opportunity to exercise those independent legs!
I really hope the job hunt goes well for you and you find something even better than before!
so SHE has the same problem? She's looking for work too? Not to quibble but you always said this job was temporary and I thought it was to end in December, so I'm not clear on the shock factor here or the "out of the blue" comment. But anyhow as you said, she's in the same boat, so she's probably not feeling too financially secure either?
My W is starting to have offers coming her way. She will be fine. My job was not supposed to end in December. I don’t think W is feeling to insecure.
Yes, I will have a total of about 10k to pull from if need be.
did you already sign that lease? See if there's a clause to cancel before moving in...then see if you can extend at the cheaper place, and save by not paying a mover...just keep costs low for now...very low.
I just signed my new lease a week and a half ago. I didn’t move. I am still in the same apartment until this summer.
K4, when you say you had a contract, were you a W2 employee or a 1099? Were you an "independent contractor?" Were payroll and FICA taxes taken out of all your checks?
It is a W2 contract through a temp agency. My understanding is that I can collect unemployment in this case.
Just asking...& hoping you get something you like MORE.
Thank you. I am doing my best.
This may be a blessing in disguise and it'll help YOU to look at it as such. Seriously. Put out positive energy into the world and not desparation....you have had better jobs than you're leaving, right?
Right. By far this was the least enjoyable job I have had in 12 years. It is also the first I have been let go from in 12 years.
Okay, say only good things about the other jobs and how happy you are to be looking to take on more responsibility and learn more and blah blah blah =you're a great IT guy...etc.
I will. Thanks 25.
Kevin
sorry for butting in... but you are still trying to reconcile this relationship, yet will lie, hide or keep things secret as you see fit?
I am merely not providing information that is not needed right now. It doesn't affect her. I am handling it. I will pay my portion of the bills. I don't see why she needs to know anything further especially when career stability is an issue of hers even though I was always stable before any of this ever happened.
Kevin
Kevin this may be a situation where you are forced to do what is best for you and your girls now independent of the W! May be a great opportunity to exercise those independent legs!
I really hope the job hunt goes well for you and you find something even better than before!
Thanks SO2. I think I will find something better. That is my goal to get a real career now and do a job I enjoy. I just wasn't happy in this position for a few reasons so I am choosing to look at this as a blessing. I am not sad to be leaving. Last night I was actually excited about the prospect of finding something better that I will enjoy far more than what I did here.
Kevin
I don't see why she needs to know anything further especially when career stability is an issue of hers even though I was always stable before any of this ever happened.
I think its call HONESTY. Its something that successful marriages thrive on. People who are sneaky and lie and hide things are usually considered untrustworthy. Something else that you rely on in your marital partner is being able to TRUST them.
I don't see much difference in this then your wife hiding her man friend. You lie. She lies. You hide. She hides. You have secrets. She has secrets. And you want to reconcile?
At what point do you flip back on the integrity switch?
I think its call HONESTY. Its something that successful marriages thrive on. People who are sneaky and lie and hide things are usually considered untrustworthy. Something else that you rely on in your marital partner is being able to TRUST them.
I don't see much difference in this then your wife hiding her man friend. You lie. She lies. You hide. She hides. You have secrets. She has secrets. And you want to reconcile?
At what point do you flip back on the integrity switch?
SM, I would normally not think anything of it. But because she made such an issue of career stability, this won't look good in her eyes. I don't see how being honest about this situation helps my sitch out given her feelings on it.
What am I gaining by reconfirming to her that my job is not stable?
Kevin
Good luck with your job search!
I don't think anybody was suggesting K lie to his W about his job situation. I *think* (?) the suggestions were for K to handle this big life issue on his own w/o his W UNLESS he is unable to meet the obligations he has with finances/custody.
Just a month ago K was calling his W asking how to contact roadside service for the car. This is a big 180 for him and that is a good thing! And it *is* for HIM, not his W.
There is all kinds of advice on this site and that is a blessing. I think in some ways we can all relate to one another. That being said EVERYBODY here has different circumstances. We ALL want to really follow the advice of people who are in a better place than us and we certainly can learn some great stuff even if it doesn't apply to our lives directly. I am sure it is very easy for somebody with a very high income, considerable assets (this is a generic person, btw, not a real person!) and a very stable financial situation to suggest how to handle finances during a divorce. And that is great, we can all learn! But if the person following the advice to a "t" doesn't have high income, assets and all the same particulars most of it is just theory (and maybe a GREAT theory) but not feasible for real life.
I won't lie to her if she asks. I am just not giving up information unnecessarily. I am taking it and handling it on my own. I intend to prevail on this.
Kevin
Well, I spent all night last night going through tutorials and all morning today as well. I am still going through them and I have to say my brain is starting to fry a little. lol. But keeping on I shall.
I have had brief seconds of thinking about W and wondering how she is doing. I have also had brief seconds of just wishing I could call her and say hi. But I won't as I am pretty sure she has no interest or she would call me and say hi.
I wonder if she knows that I still love her. Certainly she has to.
Back to studying.
Kevin
Well, I spent all night last night going through tutorials and all morning today as well. I am still going through them and I have to say my brain is starting to fry a little. lol. But keeping on I shall.
I have had brief seconds of thinking about W and wondering how she is doing. I have also had brief seconds of just wishing I could call her and say hi. But I won't as I am pretty sure she has no interest or she would call me and say hi.
I wonder if she knows that I still love her. Certainly she has to.
Back to studying.
Kevin
Yes she knows you still love her, so no, she does not wonder. Do not call her. Stay on track. Don't lose focus. It's been a problem for you since all this began.
So don't repeat that mistake. If there's a chance for a recon, it starts with you being a man on your own two feet - so I agree with your approach handling it on your own. To me, CG is right on this issue. It's part of just handling your own responsibilities and has nothing to do with your w, kids or her or you and OPs.
It is not the same as lying and pretending to be going to work when you're at the unemployment office. No one is suggesting you lie. That would be another matter. If she asks, tell her the truth and that you're handling it. No problem, happens to lots of folks lately.
But why on earth should you volunteer a "defeat" to her that may not effect her or the kids if you find something else? Would you tell her every time you get chewed out at work- B/C "it's honest"...? No, it's not needed info. I don't get that. I just don't see it as equivalent to her bringing OM into your kids' lives AND pretending it's not what it is.. Just my .02 but I think CG is spot on. Anyhow, again, good luck,
J-
Thanks 25.
I appreciate it.
Kevin
I think I am burnt out on studying for the next 2 hours. Taking a mental break.
I haven't heard back on either of my 2 prospects today. That is ok. They may be busy.
Kevin
Well,
W just informed me that she landed a job. No need to worry about her. I told her that is great news and that I am happy for her. I know it is a big relief.
Hopefully I am next.
Kevin
ewww I am going to get 2x4'd for this. But that is ok.
W texted me back saying she is relieved as she didn't want to have to ask for financial help. I texted her back and said, makes sense. I would have helped you. I wouldn't let you go under.
She texted back and says she knows and she appreciates it.
Kevin
ewww I am going to get 2x4'd for this. But that is ok.
W texted me back saying she is relieved as she didn't want to have to ask for financial help. I texted her back and said, makes sense. I would have helped you. I wouldn't let you go under.
She texted back and says she knows and she appreciates it.
Kevin
Yep...your gonna get 2x4'd!
You cannot care how she is financially! This was here choice.
I know SO2. But all in all it wouldn't have mattered anyways since she did land another job and is going to be just fine.
W picked up both kids today so I drove to her house after work to pick them up. W went on to tell me about her job and that she still has other interviews as well. Apparently the one she took is a 6 month contract. But she has a 3rd interview with a company that if they say yes on that one Friday, it will be a permanent job. So anyways she starts telling me to let her know if I have any questions or if I need any answers or help for interview questions I am about to face because she can tell me what she has already faced. I said thanks and I am good. I said I have been doing my own research and getting up to speed. I told her a few things I had been looking at and she hadn't thought of those and is going to look into them as well.
Then she had to head off to quoir after I signed the title to the van over to her and I asked how that was working and she explained. I said me and the girls will come hear you sing sometime. She said ok and was happy.
Ok. Major no no's in the world of DBing today. But things were received very positively from her both times. And she really seems to be showing an interest in wanting to help me land a better position.
I know what CG says that it is only so she can basically file without a conciounce. But I don't know for sure that is the case. Why would she care about my job sitch when it comes to filing? If she wants out, she will get out. My job I wouldn't think would matter.
I know I am getting a bit excited here and I shouldn't be reading anything into these interactions. But there are just some real change of attitudes going on lately with regard to how she is interacting with me. And she is going back to church and singing in the church quoir on top of it. She is friendlier these days. Before when this started, she wouldn't have anything to do with helping me land a better position. Flat out refused and was still going forward with the D. That is why I question it this time. She still hasn't said a word about D. Nada.
I know God is softening her. But I am not going to fool myself into thinking a reconciliation is just around the corner either. It could still be a long time out. I can't see the future. But I am putting my faith and trust in God.
It just seems like things are really improving between us since September 2008. Granted she still isn't calling me to say hi or anything. But the fact that we can joke and do things as a family now and with no real tension like it used to be is an improvement. Since the beginning of December, interactions with her have really started getting better for the most part. After today I am going to back off again as I may have jumped the gun just a bit.
I guess I just wanted her to know that I really do care about her and love her for her.
One thing I have to do is keep up PMA and just focus on my job hunt and what I need to do there.
But I definitely praise God that interactions are getting better between us.
Kevin
Nobody else would have rescued her financially had the worst come and I think she knows that.
Kevin
Actually Kevin, I think you're doing much better lately. You're doing a pretty good job of walking the fine line between maintaining a friendly relationship and still giving her a taste of the way things would be if/when you were to get divorced. Keep enforcing healthy boundaries and detachment and yet leave the door open for reconcilation. Do not push it though. If it's going to happen let it happen naturally and with her initiation or it won't be real. Nobody said this was easy!!!
Just one caution though, and I purposely put this in a separate post ....
Be aware that there could be setbacks or pitfalls ahead. Many WAW's are nice to their STBXH's to assuage their guilt and have a "nice" divorce. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, I just want you to be realistic and keep up your PMA no matter what happens. She will test you to see if the changes you are making are real. Don't try to guess her motivations, just keep working on yourself.
Actually Kevin, I think you're doing much better lately. You're doing a pretty good job of walking the fine line between maintaining a friendly relationship and still giving her a taste of the way things would be if/when you were to get divorced. Keep enforcing healthy boundaries and detachment and yet leave the door open for reconcilation. Do not push it though. If it's going to happen let it happen naturally and with her initiation or it won't be real. Nobody said this was easy!!!
Thanks Drew,
I appreciate it. I forgot to mention that we discussed taxes yesterday also. She wants to get started on them as soon as the forms are in. I agreed. She asked if I cared whether we did joint or separate. I said lets do whatever returns the most money. She agreed.
I am going to let it happen naturally Drew. I am on board with that. I actually don't expect to see her or hear from her again for another week or so. But that is ok as I have enough on my plate with trying to land another job.
Kevin
Be aware that there could be setbacks or pitfalls ahead. Many WAW's are nice to their STBXH's to assuage their guilt and have a "nice" divorce. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, I just want you to be realistic and keep up your PMA no matter what happens. She will test you to see if the changes you are making are real. Don't try to guess her motivations, just keep working on yourself.
I don't expect a perfect road from here on out. I am a realist on that. And I will just keep working on myself as I have plenty to do.
Kevin
I am putting my faith and trust in God that His will, will be done.
Kevin
I am putting my faith and trust in God that His will, will be done.
Kevin
This is good and I did the same thing, BUT my pastor told me to stop and really listen to what God's will is...not mine and accept that God's will may be for me to move forward without exh.
This is good and I did the same thing, BUT my pastor told me to stop and really listen to what God's will is...not mine and accept that God's will may be for me to move forward without exh.
I appreciate what you are saying SO2 and I do accept God's will whatever that may be. I just know I am also pray for restoration and at the moment for me to succeed at getting a better job. lol.
At the end of my prayers, I always ask that God's will be done, not mine. And I know this is what is happening because if my will were to be done, W would be back with me right now. lol.
Kevin
I just got a call from my recruiter telling me that there is a position here where I work in a different department that I seem to be qualified for. What a blessing that would be. It would buy me more time to get up to date with BSA knowledge and look around. I would definitely be grateful if it pans out.
Kevin
I think things are slowly heading in a better direction. But I am still very cautious.
Kevin
I admit this is getting hard again. I wish this would end. I want to go home to my W and kids. I want us to rebuild our M to a new level. I don't know how.
It would be nice if she would even just call/text/email and say hi out of the blue now and then. At least I would know she was thinking about me.
I'm not sure what is going on. I don't know what is going through her mind.
I just know I miss her and I want to go home to her and my kids and be a family again.
Kevin
What gets me is that we both always said at worst we would separate to fix things. Is separation what is going on now since she hasn't refiled and hasn't said anything about it? But there is no working on the M going on either.
Just confused today and feeling a bit frusturated.
Kevin
I am having trouble focusing today. I think I am a bit stressed also about a job.
Kevin
See, this is why having positive exchanges with your W does you no good. You are not able to manage your expectations when one tiny little thing happens that really is no more than normal conversation to most people.
You need to focus right now on employment. That is crucial.
Have you ever considered shaking things up (and I am not suggesting you do this per say, just wondering) and telling her..
W: I have decided I no longer care to live like this. If you would like to work on our marriage there will be talking, there will be counseling, there will be transparency and there will be sex. If you decide that is not for you then I will take the necessary steps to end our marriage.
I am not saying use those words verbatim but this really has gone on for a long time. I wish I was wrong, Kevin, but I truly have a very strong feeling that as soon as she moves and gets stable things will begin to happen.
17 months. I have thought about that at times. But I know that I am just lacking patience and faith when I do think about that. It usually gets put out of my mind pretty quickly.
I know everything seems questionable right now. But I think(am hoping) things are changing for the better.
You are right my number one goal right now is to get another job and I am working on that. I am just having a bit of trouble focusing today. Nothing new right?
Kevin
No worries about the not focusing. I feel like my brain is all over the map today and I just can't choose what to attack first.
But yes, job first.
W removed me from her health insurance. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kevin
I got a letter last night from the insurance stating what my benefits have been. Then there was an end date. Tonight while picking up the kids at W's place, she informs me that she has picked up cobra for her and the kids and somehow, cobra is actually cheaper than what she was paying. Go figure, I have no idea how that could be. But ok. It seems as though if it cost her money, I have to be removed. But if I am paying more than I would, then keep me on the other accounts. Freakin games.
Then she tells me she interviewed again today and has another tomorrow and it is just hard work interviewing and that she already has an additional offer for more than she was making before. Then she tells me all her friends have been calling her to comfort her and make sure she is ok since her job was ending. She tells me like I care that she has friends, especially any friends that support her pulling all this crap.
We discussed the girls report cards and the girls did well. The girls and I finally ended up leaving. Her life is going so great. She has no reason to look back at me. Just another step closer to a direction I have not wanted to head towards.
I am tired of these games with her. I am sooo tired of them.
Kevin
So what is it that you can do with your life to make it worth bragging about? GAL like she is. After all this time, you're still acting like a victim.
Not a victim. Just sick of waiting around for her games to end.
Kevin
"Just sick of waiting around for her games to end."
You know you keep answering your own problems but you're not listening.
Stop waiting. Get off your @$$ and do something positive. And not positive for one hour, 2 hours, one day, one week. Do something positive that is long lasting.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this again, but you've been putting band aids all over you (your GAL) for a temporary fix (you don't think they're temporary, but you always end up in the same spot you are now. Angry and bitter). Do something that will be long lasting and can stay with you for the good times and bad.
Your W is extremely positive about life and she gets what she gives. If you keep returning back to your pissed off, bitter mood, that's the kind of stuff you're going to get back.
Again...be your W and GAL. Be the one who can do the bragging for a change.
Kevin -
Your W is not playing a game.
I sense you are getting tired of the situation with your W not considering you as part of her future.
I want to pass on something I did that other posters strongly disagreed with when I was in newcomers. However, my wife told me that it was huge and very sentimental for her. She said that she looked at it often (maybe she still does) and I believe that it was a big influence over time as to her asking for a second chance. There were other factors that possibly contributed to her wanting to try again. For her it was missing family time together, missing me, pressure from the kids and wanting to save face in front of her friends and family. Actions that I did that contributed were standing up for my dignity, gaining emotional strength, happiness through GAL, continuing to be a good father who did many activities with the kids, filing for the D, getting a girlfriend, dropping the rope/not caring about our marriage anymore.
The non-DB thing I did was to spend a good amount of time with Digital Image Pro to create a beautiful photo collage album of pictures of the two of us together. There were some pictures also of us as a family mixed in. Every picture was a cherished memory of our marriage together. And in the middle of each page, I put in a line from a song. The first song was "Love" by John Lennon and the second song was "Just the Way You Are" by Billy Joel. I also created a music CD for her that contained "our songs" that we enjoyed together during our marriage.
I remember that I was told to not give it to her by posters on here as it was just another form of pressure and guilt. I showed it to my boss and it brought him to tears and he told me to give it to her. I never printed one for myself, but I still have it on my computer. Currently, I dont want to look at it as I dont desire to dredge up the past. Maybe 5 or more years from now I may reminisce about our marriage, but now is not the time.
I dont know if it is worth you trying something like this as I had done it early on in my situation. If you do, and your W does not have a change of heart later on, you still could consider it a gift that your W could look back on occasionally as she moves forward in life.
You really dont have much else to lose considering that you suck at detaching and applying the basic divorce busting principles.
"Just sick of waiting around for her games to end."
You know you keep answering your own problems but you're not listening.
Stop waiting. Get off your @$$ and do something positive. And not positive for one hour, 2 hours, one day, one week. Do something positive that is long lasting.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this again, but you've been putting band aids all over you (your GAL) for a temporary fix (you don't think they're temporary, but you always end up in the same spot you are now. Angry and bitter). Do something that will be long lasting and can stay with you for the good times and bad.
I cannot believe K4 said "I'm so tired of waiting" AGAIN, and yet sees nothing self inflicted in that comment. It's almost ALL self inflicted. And it comes right after pondering what was going through her mind and if she was thinking of you....NO, k4, as I said, she's NOT. She wants out. And you keep waiting and waiting and not changing, and not changing, but waiting and waiting and praying, but not changing ---just "waiting"...
Your W is extremely positive about life and she gets what she gives. If you keep returning back to your pissed off, bitter mood, that's the kind of stuff you're going to get back.
Again...be your W and GAL. Be the one who can do the bragging for a change.
GAL...stop needing. Change. Change. Change. Change YOU.
Change your life. Stop waiting. IT's not working. It has been over a year. K4, do you Like your life now? Then keep at it. Keep WAITING....oh what's that? You Don't like it? Then CHANGE IT.j-
W removed me from her health insurance. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kevin
Looks like SHE has no issues splitting finanaces ......
Kevin I really hope that sometime soon you will see that your W is showing nothing but her backside to you. The niceness you see is her just trying to be civil. Please don't do what I have done for a few years now and wait and hope! I would be so much farther along by now if I just stood up, dusted off, and moved on. I just don't want to you look back and see you have wasted some good years of your life on this.
Stuck, the only life I can get right now is trying to get another job.
KerryK, that is a good idea. W has all of our pictures, so I would need to ask to borrow them and figure out this digital pro thing. But I like that idea.
25, no. I have not been thrilled with life and the whole waiting process.
Drew, apparently she doesn't have any issues with splitting accounts.
SO2, the only thing I am wasting is my happiness right now which I need to turn around and be happy regardless of circumstances.
Kevin
This morning I went to D8's awards assembly. She made the all A and B honoroll. I am proud of her. I am proud of both of my girls.
So I was there waiting for it to begin and W showed up and sat next to me. We talked briefly about job prospects, etc. D8 and her class came in and D8 saw us and smiled. Not many parents were there. I guess a lot of them had to work.
After the ceremony was over I went over and spoke to D8's teacher. Apparently D8 has not been totally attentive in math class so I just wanted further clarification. The funny this is, her math grade came up 5 points and she moved into an A from a B. So I am thinking, well, it seems to be working with her not being completely attentive. lol. I didn't say this to the teacher though. So we talked briefly and I will address it with D8.
As me and W are walking out together she tells me she wants to reward the kids tomorrow by taking them to see the tooth fairy movie. I said I was thinking the same things. W said she wanted to know if I wanted to be part of that. I said yes and I was going to ask her the same thing.
So we will do that for the girls tomorrow.
Last night I was feeling like I just didn't know what to do next or what direction to go or what is going to happen job wise or M wise or anything. I started praying about it and then at the end of praying a voice/thought came into my head that said "Trust in the Lord". It was immediately at the end and I actually heard it in my head. I know God was talking to me. So I wrote it down on a sticky and put it on my monitor to remind me about that.
Kevin
Kevin, I'm just as bad off as you are. I'm standing but getting no where. I wish there was a button we could push to turn the sadness to happiness. Are you still standing? If you get a chance can you hop over to my thread?
I am still standing Goodfight. I am still wearing my ring. This morning while me and W were sitting together I wondered if she notices that I still wear my ring. Then I wondered if she does, what does she think about it. I have no idea. Was just thoughts that popped into my head.
Kevin
Let me get this straight:
-She cancelled your health insurance without telling you.
-You're going to a movie with her
???????
Take the ring off. It is just one more thing to remind you of your situation. You could consider it a 180. And she might even notice and think "Oh no, Kevin is not wearing his ring. I am losing him."
Take the ring off. It is just one more thing to remind you of your situation. You could consider it a 180. And she might even notice and think "Oh no, Kevin is not wearing his ring. I am losing him."
Agreed! She sees you 'standing' as being a pushover. Its so not attractive Kevin.
Kevin - this is the second major life thing your W has done in less than a week and did so by "bomb dropping" on you.
First, after mucking up the plans last weekend to suit HER schedule she casually drops the news at a b-day dinner for her own daughter that they are moving. Your kids had no clue, you had no clue. Your W had no respect for you as a "co-parent" to even discuss uprooting the children or at the very least letting you know the plan before the children were told.
If she wants to take you off the insurance, well, fine, her choice. She certainly can find the time to text/call you when she needs something but didn't feel it was necessary to tell you about the insurance until you got a letter in the mail. No respect.
Now her bills have decreased as you said COBRA was less expensive, your bills remain the same and YOU are without health coverage and didn't find out until after the fact. Not to mention during this time you told her you would financially have her back. She wasn't really worried about "your back" when she took you off the insurance w/o advance notice so you could find your own.
I guess what I am trying to say is look at all that disrespect that happened over the course of SEVEN days and what is the end result? A movie.
As me and W are walking out together she tells me she wants to reward the kids tomorrow by taking them to see the tooth fairy movie. I said I was thinking the same things. W said she wanted to know if I wanted to be part of that. I said yes and I was going to ask her the same thing.
So we will do that for the girls tomorrow.
Kevin
Start being honest with yourself, Kevin. You're not doing it for the girls. You're doing it for you.
I am tired of these games with her. I am sooo tired of them.
Kevin
You certainly didn't stay tired very long.
tell us again what you love about your wife
An article on wearing the ring from rejoice ministries.
http://charlyne.org/cc/view.php?id=2503It may be worldly unattractive. But it still means the same thing today as the day I put it on when I got married. I have taken it off at times in the past and I regret doing that now. So I will not take it off anymore.
I think I left out a peice of info regarding the insurance. W had mentioned some time back that I needed to look into an insurance plan, at the time I assumed she meant for the kids and I. I am not sure. But the insurance plan I have through my agency is just as ridiculously high as the one she had. So I didn't bother with it. I figured with me not asking for any form of C/S which I could technically ask for, and with me picking up the C bill and halfing the others, it would just offset. Nothing more was discussed recently. Then yes, I got the letter. Then yes, she told me her and the kids are on COBRA now and it is far cheaper.
Ok, so I am without healthy insurance and I am possibly about to be without a job unless another comes through soon.
I am however going tonight to a business meetup that is talking about 8 ways to make money on line and business modeling. I figured this would be good to attend if nothing else for information matters.
The steering wheel on my car started making noises today. I knew it was getting tighter, but now it is making noises.
lol. You really just have to laugh about all of this or else you will go nuts.
In the past, these circumstances would have pushed me into a severe depression. However, this time around, I am not letting that happen. I will come out of this ok. It may be a bit tight and stressful some, but I will be ok.
Kevin
You certainly didn't stay tired very long.
I try to bounce back quickly Drew.
Kevin
tell us again what you love about your wife
I love her for her even though I get frusturated with her actions at times. She is fun loving towards most. She is outgoing and enjoys life. Her life is actually going great for her. Her career definitely helps that out. Before she got her job that helped launch all of this, she did stress a lot about money and took us into debt. But now this has allowed her to breathe in that area and really take life by the horns. She is a positive person. She is smart. She is confident in herself. She is God's daughter and it is my responsibility to treat her that way no matter how hurt or frusturated I may become. She is attractive. Apparently she gets hit on all the time and she has built up quite a social network.
I don't agree with some of her actions the past 17 months. We all make mistakes or have flaws or whatever you want to call it. We don't all agree on everything.
I will say this. I don't feel that I owe her an apology any longer. I think 17 months is long enough to have made amends for any of my wrong doings in the M. But I do have an ethical stance that needs to be taken even though it has taken a hit at times through this through nobody's fault but my own.
Drew, the movie really is for the kids and I also do want to see the movie. Going to movies is actually a bit of a 180 for me as I refused to go for so long and I would not find any enjoyment out of it. Now I am finding enjoyment in them again.
Kevin
I guess I really don't have anything else to say to you ...
In 108 pages of posts, which is WAY over the moderator's suggested limit BTW, I can't recall ONE time where you actually did something that someone here suggested. We all need to live our own lives, but I thought we came here to learn from the experiences and mistakes of others in similar situations.
You come here and complain that your wife walks all over you and then at the first opportunity, you let her walk all over you. You say she doesn't, but pretty much everyone here but you sees it. Not once in your description of your wife did you mention how she is TO YOU.
You come here and complain that your wife walks all over you and then at the first opportunity, you let her walk all over you. You say she doesn't, but pretty much everyone here but you sees it. Not once in your description of your wife did you mention how she is TO YOU.
The past 17 months she has gone from being extremely angry and cold and harsh to becoming more cordial and friendly towards me. Prior to any of this, she was wonderful towards me. I couldn't have asked for better companionship and loyalty.
She was also a great mother prior to this. Once this started, that fell off and she lost interest in her kids. She has since regained that and is really becoming a good mother to them again.
I do learn a ton from this forum. But also understand that what may work in one person's sitch doesn't always work in anothers sitch. Divorcing her wouldn't have any affect on her that I could see. Plus it would be going against what the bible says when it says "Husbands, do not divorce your wives". Now people can say what they want about that and that I am hiding behind that and whatever. I have heard it all. But that verse ALWAYS pops in my mind when someone mentions to me filing for D. I don't think that is a coincidence.
I am a terrible DBuster. I can't deny that. I like KerryK's idea. I am considering that.
Kevin
1. I never once told you to divorce her
2. Read Matthew 5:32
1. I never once told you to divorce her
2. Read Matthew 5:32
Drew, I didn't say that you told me to file for D. Others have.
I know what Matthew 5:32 says. But I also know what it was referring to during the jewish culture at that time. A lot of people don't look into that or know the history or circumstances surrounding that. I will briefly explain here at the risk of being pummeled because it isn't popular.
When Jesus said that, he was referring to the engagement period. In jewish customs at that time, an engagement was considered a formal contract to be married. The sacraments had not yet been placed on the marriage. Joseph was going to divorce Mary because he had thought that she had been unfaithful. Keep in mind, this is during the betrothal period. This is accepted only during this period. However, we all know that the angel came and spoke to Joseph and informed him of what was really going on. Joseph was obediant to God and did not seek D. The sacraments were placed on the M. Once the sacraments are placed on the M, it is final. There is no option to D. You can do a history search on jewish betrothal during biblical times.
Matthew 5:32 is completely taken out of context by so many who don't understand the history and culture behind it. There were only certain reasons you could end a betrothal and that was one of them. Again, you were considered M at that point, but it was not officially valid until the sacraments were placed on the M. Remember also, God doesn't contradict himself in the bible. Hince, "Husbands, do not divorce your wives". And "W's if you divorce your H, you are to remain single or be reconciled back to your H's". Unfaithfulness only applies if the M has not yet been consecrated as valid.
So just a short history lesson there for any interested. The catholic church backs this up.
Kevin
That's a pretty long list of positives about your W.
Okay, let's see your list of positives about yourself.
Kevin - this is the second major life thing your W has done in less than a week and did so by "bomb dropping" on you.
First, after mucking up the plans last weekend to suit HER schedule she casually drops the news at a b-day dinner for her own daughter that they are moving. Your kids had no clue, you had no clue. Your W had no respect for you as a "co-parent" to even discuss uprooting the children or at the very least letting you know the plan before the children were told.
If she wants to take you off the insurance, well, fine, her choice. She certainly can find the time to text/call you when she needs something but didn't feel it was necessary to tell you about the insurance until you got a letter in the mail. No respect.
Now her bills have decreased as you said COBRA was less expensive, your bills remain the same and YOU are without health coverage and didn't find out until after the fact. Not to mention during this time you told her you would financially have her back. She wasn't really worried about "your back" when she took you off the insurance w/o advance notice so you could find your own.
I guess what I am trying to say is look at all that disrespect that happened over the course of SEVEN days and what is the end result? A movie.
Oh AND he's still wearing the ring so that she notices b/c....b/c....he's "Standing"...which means NO changing. Just standing and waiting, b/c frankly, it's the easiest thing for him to do and it's familiar. Change is way too scary.
Even though he KNOWS it's not working, he continues the same course of action. "Waits" and then finds out he has no insurance BUT he'd watch her back and lend her money he does not have...To me, that is NOT standing unless you mean standing STILL...for the 5447th time.
I hope you take this in the spirit in which it's offered....
My prayer for you is:
"Please dear God, let Kevin learn and grow from this. Guide him in the
changes he must make, and lessen his many fears, including fear of change- so he can become the man you want him to become."
j-