I've been reading posts here for a while, but haven't posted anything.
My situation is like SO many others. One day last October (over 9 mos now) I came home to a big hug & kiss at the door after work. The next day I got the speech.
We decided to work on it. Before long, she said we were fine. Together forever. Six weeks later...she said "it was all an act." Devistated again.
We went to counseling a few times. She was so walled off though that she was just going through the motions. Anger and resentment turned into late nights out, heavy drinking and immersing herself into her girlfriend's life. (she really took on the entire life of her girlfriend..friends, family, style of dress, speech patterns...it is weird!)
Lots of me fighting, begging, complaining that she could invest so much in the girlfriend, but nothing in our family. But eventually I started to back off. We'd start to get better...then worse. There's no consistency to the pattern. She's in my bed, calling me at work, telling me she loves me then BAM! Moved back in the other room, ring is off, says it's not getting better, I've realized I've NEVER been in love with you and that ... and this is my favorite "I finally know my path to happiness, and this marriage is keeping me from it."
Just so you know. This is a girl that has always claimed (and still claims when we're talking about other people) to have strong family values. "Marriage is important. Family is important. People need to work through the bad times," she has said. Just not when it comes to our marriage. Now it's "why should I have to stay if I'm not happy here?" We all know that listing the reasons why doesn't always help...I listed them for her anyway.
We had out 10 year anniversary in June. We were on an up. She was telling me she loved me. Kissing me when I got home from work again. We planned a trip. Talked a little about the future. When she opened the anniversary band that I got her though it all changed. We haven't been the same since. She said "I don't feel like I should feel getting a beautiful gift like this from her husband." (She adopted the "it's not meant to be" attitude and totally checked out again)
It's been months of no emotion at all. She feels nothing. She finally started IC and determined that she is codependent. She has "no identity." (totally poo IMHO) It's too late. She loves the changes that I have made, but still claims to feel nothing.
New twist this week: She now claims to be "at peace" with everything. Not sure what that means. Now she's initiating comversation (I used to initiate all conversations, but started LRT about 2 1/2 weeks ago). She made a family dinner last night. Huh? What the he!!? This is the girl who excluded me from her B'day party two weeks ago. The party where all of the other people brought their spouse and she went stag, sans wedding ring.
Ain't life grand?
Wow, we must be cousins based on our screen names.
First, sorry you find yourself here, buyou will find a great deal of help and support here. It has (and still does) get me through some rough patches.
Our situations (and many others' too) are similar.
Second, everything you have described about your W is pretty much the walk away spouse (WAS) script. As hard as it is, you have to understand your W is not herself, or at least the person you married, right now. As crazy as it sounds, it is the situation, not you, that is mostly at issue here. She perceives that your M is what is holding her back.
Have you read either Divorce Remedy (DR) or Divorce Busting (DB)? It sounds like you have, but if not, read one of them.
Can you swing counseling? I have never been to a counselor before my sitch, and it has helped me a great deal.
The most important thing you can do right now is to give her space. Lots of space. As far as pursuing, stop any and all of that. And understand, it is HER pecrception of what you are doing that counts, not reality.
Can you tell us more about your situation (sitch), especially any warning signs leading up to the speech? Did you guys fight much before or have disagreemnts over fundamental issues - $$$ or child rearing? Does your W work? What was your W's childhood like?
Also, the girlfriend your W has been hanging with, what is her sitch? Single? Had similar experiences as your W?
Sorry about the near name hijack. It was unintentional. To be honest, my brain works so strangely anymore that I couldn't tell you for sure if I had even seen your name or not.
As for the counseling, I have been going a little. It took months to see that she had some legitimate complaints. I figured she was the one with the problem, not me.
A lot of painful soul searching later I have seen a lot of room for improvement in myself. I didn't think any off my stuff was 'deal breaking' though. As you said...it's her perception that counts. I've learned a lot about that.
She has started going to a new therapist...mostly to hear that she is validated for leaving. (she has been feeling a lot of guilt). I went with her to the last appt. (wife was a robot...emotionally shut down)
W's mom has always been pretty rigid. She runs W's dad
like it's her job. W now talks about feeling like I control her. I am sorry she feels that way and have been really evaluating my actions. (I've been a great guy in some ways...not so much in others) I'm from an emotionally open, affectionate family. Hers is not. She says she feels smothered by my affection.
Wife came up while I was typing so I stopped my post.
Just to finish up, her friend is married, close to the same age, and has 2 kids. She is pro marriage and thinks my wife is going crazy. The friend's husband is a workaholic though so I think she kind of likes my wife hanging out with her so much. The friend does tell W that she is creating her own problem and needs to wake up. Not sure if it's helping or not.
I have read DR and am about 1/2 way through DB.
It's nice to find others that 'get it.' My frienda and most of my family tell me to just move on. Thankfully I have a cousin (female) who has been through this. She has been an amazing source for insight and support.
Giving my all or givingitmyall, either way, it says you're both committed to going the distance.
It sucks to be in our situation, but we can all get through it. Best advice I can give you is to try to let go of the anger and resentment as fast as you can. It just gets in the way of what you need to do and the steps you need to take. And it doesn't help the situation at all. As soon as I was able to let go, make some changes, and detach and start the LRT techniques, my situation at home got much more bearable.
It's not easy, we know. Try to step back, focus, and get a grasp on how you're reacting and what techniques you need to use to work towards your goals.
Hang in there!
Hope you know I was kidding about the name thing. I do not own the copyright.
Anyway, your sitch is familiar, and quite similar to a lot of people here. In mine, I did not do anything that standing alone justified my W wanting to leave. Looking back, I can see that I wore her down with a lot of negativity (I wasn't happy with me for a while). I wasn't a bad husband. I did not cheat, I remebered all the right dates, I spent time with the kids. So, I understand your point.
As far as your W's friend, I am sure you are staying out of that. It is a positive that your W's friend is pro-M, especially if your W has not pushed her away. My W did push away friends who did not validate her decision to leave. In the end, though, your W will have to sort through her issues, and no one can do that for her.
The best thinkg you can do right now is act like a friend of hers. If you are like me, every fiber of your being will scream out that that is wrong. I', not saying walk around and kiss her a$$. Far from it. What I'm suggesting is that you keep making your changes (for you, not her), be consistent, and maintain a positive mental attitude (PMA). GAL'ing right now is very important. All of these things will make you feel better about you, which will make you more attractive to your W - understand that this is NOT the reason you are doing this. If you are doing this to win back your W, it WON'T work - you will not be able to maintain the work, and she will see right through it.
Come here to vent. You will be up and down. Unfortunately, this will take time. You will feel like time is your enemy, but I can assure you, it is your friend. A friend you may not want or even like, but an ally nonetheless.
Do not show any negative emotions around your W (boundary issues excepted). If you need to let out some emotion, do it away from her.
Just sit back, live your life as best you can, and watch. Make note of the little positive changes in your W.
One more thing. You may know this already, but DO NOT EVER tell your W about DR or DB. Those are for you and you alone. If she finds them, she will think your changes were nothing more than a ploy to trick her into staying.
That's all good advice. Thanks.
I have spoken to the W's friend only a couple of times (about W and our R) in the past 9 months. Only when I have gone to pick up S when he is over playing with her kids. She doesn't push W too much in fear of pushing her away.
I had been having a hard time GAL, since W was coming around more often for a while. We kept doing things as a family. Over the past month though it has become easier. I think W is noticing too. She seems to feel left out when S and I are going out to the park, hanging with the neighbors, or hitting a ballgame. GAL has been good for me too.
It's SOOO hard to be a friend with her right now. She has turned into such a different person. I completely understand that I need to do better than my best here though. **note to self - remember, the ultimate goal is to save M and family ** This fits right into the stuff that I need to work on with myself too. I never really understood how to be the listener that she has wanted me to be. Listening and validating without trying to fix and give feedback seems to be a problem for a lot of us guys. I had no clue it was such an issue with W prior to this.
I'll head over today and catch up on your sitch. I'll add you to my prayer list (something else that is new for me)
I had been having a hard time GAL, since W was coming around more often for a while. We kept doing things as a family. Over the past month though it has become easier. I think W is noticing too. She seems to feel left out when S and I are going out to the park, hanging with the neighbors, or hitting a ballgame. GAL has been good for me too.
It's SOOO hard to be a friend with her right now. She has turned into such a different person. I completely understand that I need to do better than my best here though. **note to self - remember, the ultimate goal is to save M and family ** This fits right into the stuff that I need to work on with myself too. I never really understood how to be the listener that she has wanted me to be. Listening and validating without trying to fix and give feedback seems to be a problem for a lot of us guys. I had no clue it was such an issue with W prior to this.
I'm in the same position. Two bits of advice. Make sure you don't inadvertently put your son between the two of you. Not easy I know. My wife has been so fixated on gettin her own life (withdrawing)she is now surprised that our son has noticed her frequent absences from us. Go figure! Also, dont forget to try to do things for yourself without your son. It's easy top try to be superdad while you're trying to save your marriage. I'm also working on this myself, but I think it's a lot more beneficial for you and more noticable for your wife when some of what you do is, well, selfish - just for you.
I also wasn't a good listener. I realized that in my desire to be right, or heard, or make my point, I often would dismiss my wifes point or feelings. I'm learning.
Sounds like you're heding in the right direction. Hang in there.
Thanks for the suggestions and perspective WGU. It's almost like the have a script!
I have gone through some of GIMA's postings now too. I started laughing when I read about the books. I HATE the books! It's tough to think that while I'm reading how to be a better man and save our family, W is reading how to cut the strings and how glorious life after D is. I understand that she feels the M is holding her back and D is the "only path to happiness," but it sucks to see. I am consistantly amazed (still after 9 months) how people can get to a point where they see their wedding vows, their family, marriage, children, etc. as esentially disposable.
I hate the "If it feels good do it" mentality that these books sell. Where is the "If it's worth having, it's worth working for" attitude? Here's a link to a quick article that I found while thinking of this attitude the other day.
http://daily.insight.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=13101&news_iv_ctrl=1781Another question: I saw stuff about the book "Walk Out Woman." Is it something that you could share with your wife? I know that my wife would like better understanding of shy she's feeling what she's feeling, to be validated, and to know that she's not crazy or alone and I thought it may help. OTOH, that may just be the "fixer" coming out in me.
Another question: I saw stuff about the book "Walk Out Woman." Is it something that you could share with your wife? I know that my wife would like better understanding of shy she's feeling what she's feeling, to be validated, and to know that she's not crazy or alone and I thought it may help. OTOH, that may just be the "fixer" coming out in me.
I would not recommend this. Where she likely is, she is not going to listen to ANY advice from you. Right or wrong, that is where she is. Unless she asks for help (not likely), I would not give her advice or any books.
Right now, the best thing you can do is give her space and change you to make you a better you. That is the the only way you will make an impression on her.
Funny you saw the thing about my W and her books. I haven't checked in "her" room in quite a while (and don't plan to cuz I don't care), but I believe those books have been gone for a while. At the time, they proviked a lot of anger and hurt in me, and I asked myself the same question you noted. Unfortunately, you have to do all the heavy lifting right now. But, it will get better.
I will give you some suggestions (worth what you paid for them) on books I found helpful. The Five Love Languages really made an impact on me. I read the Walk Out Woman, and I cannot say I learned a lot - most of the WAW perspective on this board was what seemed to be contained in that one.
I am reading one right now called Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. One of my big changes has been turning from a pessimist to an optimist. Really helps with the PMA.
I just ordered Light Her Fire, and I'll let you know how that one goes.
Good point. I'll hold off on sharing the book. I've stopped trying to "fix" anything and have gotten a lot better at focusing on myself.
I have had such a hard time understanding the Ups & Downs that W goes through. I noticed recently though that I go through these too. For the last couple of days I have had that "young, strong, and I can handle this," vibe going. Then all of the sudden I just get sad.
I saw that a couple of weeks ago you were having the ability to detach a little more and check out girls at the gym. Are you keeping that up? I've had moments like that, but I haven't been able to maintain them. (I don't show her when I'm sad)
Funny how this supposedly came on from lack of communication, lack of appreciating the small things, etc. and the prescription for fixing it is no communication, no over the top appreciation, no acting lovie-dovie etc. Ironic.
Her anger comes and goes. Last night when I was typing on this she came and sat with me outside and said, "I'm so sorry we're going through this." I could only reply "me too." I waited and followed with "I've learned a lot that I don't think I would have otherwise though." She seemed to appreciate that and said that she did too. This is the first time that she has come to me and discussed anything not completely superficial in a while. I think it's because she was nervious about going to IC today. She HATES talking about her feelings. The only way she can do it is to put on the "strong, angry-girl face."
I'm nervous to see how she acts today after her IC appt. I still think she's there looking for validation in leaving so she won't feel guilty anymore.
I have had such a hard time understanding the Ups & Downs that W goes through. I noticed recently though that I go through these too. For the last couple of days I have had that "young, strong, and I can handle this," vibe going. Then all of the sudden I just get sad.
If you read my thread, you will see the exact same thing. This is completely normal. When you begin to understand that the bad times are going to prop up somethime for no reason, and bite you, they become much more manageable. And, with time, they become MUCH less intense. Eventually, they hardly seem noticeable. But, at first, they are tough. Don't fight them. Just let them out (away from your W), then pick yourself back up.
I saw that a couple of weeks ago you were having the ability to detach a little more and check out girls at the gym. Are you keeping that up? I've had moments like that, but I haven't been able to maintain them. (I don't show her when I'm sad)
Detachment takes a while ( and I'm still working on it). Good days and some infrequent bad ones. That's ok though. As far as noticing other women....YES!. I would not act on it right now (I would not until D is final I think). But, what I have noticed is that I realize that my W is not the only beautiful woman in the world. I just got back from my kids' meet and greet at their schools, and if half the women (many single) I saw there are on the PTA, I just found my volunteer opportunity for next year.
Take a look at this:
Developing Detachment Funny how this supposedly came on from lack of communication, lack of appreciating the small things, etc. and the prescription for fixing it is no communication, no over the top appreciation, no acting lovie-dovie etc. Ironic.
I don't think it is 100% no communication (some advocate going dark in some sitch's), and I don't think it comes from not showing affection. The fine point to appreciate is that you show affection in a different way. Certainly, initially, you do pull WAY back. I think this is more to give them space and make them wonder what is going on with you. But, I think the biggest thing is that any and all activity your W could perceive as pursuit has to stop.
One of the things people have a hard time dealing with and understanding is the conept of loving detachment. It does NOT mean withdrawing in a cold shoulder kind of way. It really is pulling back in a manner that you are still approachable, but leave the approach to your W. And it DOES work.
Also, the best book I have read on communication so far is The Five Love Languages. It was eye opening and only took a day to read.
Her anger comes and goes. Last night when I was typing on this she came and sat with me outside and said, "I'm so sorry we're going through this." I could only reply "me too." I waited and followed with "I've learned a lot that I don't think I would have otherwise though." She seemed to appreciate that and said that she did too. This is the first time that she has come to me and discussed anything not completely superficial in a while. I think it's because she was nervious about going to IC today. She HATES talking about her feelings. The only way she can do it is to put on the "strong, angry-girl face."
Couple of things. First, she will be on the up and down for a while. Expect her to pull back after a particularly good day. That is normal.
Second, be careful about relationship talks. If she brings it up, tmake it about HER feelings/issues, not yours.
I'm nervous to see how she acts today after her IC appt. I still think she's there looking for validation in leaving so she won't feel guilty anymore.
One thing you HAVE to change is worrying over things you can't control. You have NO control over how she will feel after the IC session or anytime else. You have NO control over her ultimate decision. This is a hard one, but as soon as you accept that, a ton of pressure is off you, and you can begin to work on you much more effectively.
Sorry for the long post, but a lot of ground to cover.
What a LONG weekend.
I went out with friends Friday night (boating). W was home with S7. They were at the neighbor's house hanging out around the firepit with a group of neighbors and their kids when I got home around 10:00. Wife brought S home, but was very cold to me. (She is always cold after IC appt). Then she went back to the neighbor's house.
Saturday was more uneasiness between us. I kept busy most of the day and ended up going to see a movie (GI Joe)with one of the neighbors that night. He and his wife were at the firepit the previous night.
When I got home Saturday W was up and in "her" room. I stuck my hear in to say good night. She began chatting about the night before hanging with the neighbors and other chit chat. Still cold. I backslid "BIG." I said "how do you sit here comfortable with the idea that it is some other woman with me hanging out with our neighbors next summer?" She went into the schpiel about she's not going to be alone forever (btw...I am the only man she has ever been with), she knows her path to happiness etc. She doesn't know why I am fighting this.
The next day we got into it again. I have given her space for months and we have just gotten further apart. She finally lit into me about how unhappy she has been and how she is so resentful toward me. How she has been so hurt and will never allow herself to be in that position again. She said she can see that finding happiness in our marriage would be great, but just kept saying that she is not willing to try. She has already put enough into the M. Once again , told her that I had no idea that she was hurting back then. I apologized. I cried. She cried. I told her I wanted to be the man that she wanted me to be. She said she has seen the changes that I have made, but it hasn't changed how she felt. I told her that a few months of changes (biggest changes in me in last 2 1/2 - 3 mos) are not enough to overcome 10 years or more of hurt. I asked her to please give us a chance and spare our son from having to go through this. We have never addressed these issues together and I agreed that they were all valid issues.
It really seems like she has wanted to see remorse and "payment" for the hurt that I have caused her and going out and GAL has made her MORE angry at me. I think that she wants to see that I am hurting.
I got up in the middle of the night last night to get a snack. She followed me downstairs and started into it again. "I just can't, I know my true path, It's too late..." She made it sound so noble that she is following her "true path." I sat on the floor, spoke softly and just kept saying that I don't want her to be unhappy and I don't want our son to go through this. I empathized with her. She agreed that it was her fault too (lack of communication). But she kept asking me to basically condone her leaving...tell her it's OK. I wouldn't and she started yelling at me. "F-You!" she kept yelling. I kept quit. then said "I'm so sorry that I've hurt you."
At one point she said she was filing this week. I cried. I said I don't want S7 to have to go through this since we have never tried to work on this together. All we have done is "take space" and drift further apart. She kept going on about her "path" and eventually threw herself on "her" bed and cried, fine I'll stay here unhappy forever. I'll die unhappy. I tried to tell her that we don't have to be unhappy. None of us do. Please work with me to save our family and find happiness for all of us. She just yelled "I'm not leaving...I'll stay here unhappy forever!"
She asked me to leave the room.
I have no idea if this is good that we have finally addressed some of these things or if whe is just getting chased further away. She could file today for all I know.
The sad part is that I was just getting 1/2 way good at GAL. Now it looks like that may have added fuel to the fire. She still has so much resentment about being unhappy. I didn't even have a clue that she felt this way prior to the bomb. She used to be an amazing wife.
I can't seem to find the edit button, but I had to add one thing...for my own records at least. My response each time she said she wanted to leave/was going to leave / file had been that I have never stopped her, I am so sorry she is hurting, sorry I caused pain, I didn't know she was unhappy and asked that she please try to work on this with me.
OK. Some good, some bad.
I backslid "BIG." I said "how do you sit here comfortable with the idea that it is some other woman with me hanging out with our neighbors next summer?" She went into the schpiel about she's not going to be alone forever (btw...I am the only man she has ever been with), she knows her path to happiness etc. She doesn't know why I am fighting this.
Yes, that was a back slide. At least you recognize it. Don't let it happen again. You let yourself do this - she didn't bait you into it.
Oh, and what she said, all script. I have heard exactly the same things from my W.
The next day we got into it again. I have given her space for months and we have just gotten further apart.
Have you, or is this your perception of it. Not taking steps towards D is not moving further apart. She needs this time to work through her issues. You need this time to work on you.
She finally lit into me about how unhappy she has been and how she is so resentful toward me. How she has been so hurt and will never allow herself to be in that position again.
This is good. She needs to get this out.
But, this is bad:
Once again , told her that I had no idea that she was hurting back then. I apologized.
Don't defend yourself or be defensive. Just validate her feelings. You telling her you did not know she was unhappy is defense. Accept the blame, even if you know you don't deserve it. For now. Instead of being defensive, just say "I understand."
She said she has seen the changes that I have made, but it hasn't changed how she felt. I told her that a few months of changes (biggest changes in me in last 2 1/2 - 3 mos) are not enough to overcome 10 years or more of hurt.
First, this too is from the script. I have heard nearly the identical phrase. Second, time - it will take time. Third, why hasn't she left if the changes are not enough to overcome her pain. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but she's still there.
I asked her to please give us a chance and spare our son from having to go through this.
I understand, but you do not want her coming back out of a sense of guilt. You want her to want to come back. Otherwise, you WILL have this problem again. It's only a matter of time.
But she kept asking me to basically condone her leaving...tell her it's OK. I wouldn't and she started yelling at me. "F-You!" she kept yelling. I kept quit. then said "I'm so sorry that I've hurt you."
Some good and some bad here. The not OK'ing her decision to leave is definitely good. But, the apology that you hurt her is not. She knows that already. Let her get her anger out, but when it gets to personal attacks, draw the line there. Tell her you are sorry she feels the way she does, but that you will not stand by and let her insult/personally attack you, then walk out of the room. If she hadn't gone with the F-bomb, you should have told her you understand what she wants to do, you do not agree with it, that you will not resist her choice, but will not assist her in that.
At one point she said she was filing this week. I cried. I said I don't want S7 to have to go through this since we have never tried to work on this together. All we have done is "take space" and drift further apart. She kept going on about her "path" and eventually threw herself on "her" bed and cried, fine I'll stay here unhappy forever. I'll die unhappy. I tried to tell her that we don't have to be unhappy. None of us do. Please work with me to save our family and find happiness for all of us. She just yelled "I'm not leaving...I'll stay here unhappy forever!"
Don't know if she'll file, but I doubt it.
Right now, she needs space, and a lot of it. I do not think the talk you had re the issues and getting them out there was a good idea. Sounds like she's still pretty hurt and angry. Just back away and let things calm down. You aren't going to be able to reason with her or convince her you are correct.
I know that's a lot, and I don't want you to think I am jumping on you. I'm not. But, you HAVE to stop the R talks. HAVE TO. If she wants to bring it up, listen, and I mean just listen , and validate. Time to fall on the sword, not go on defense. If you defend, the same argument will be replayed. She will come to you when she is ready to talk about the R. But SHE must be the one to initiate it, not you.
Get back to GAL'ing and give her some space.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not worried about feeling like you're jumping on me. I need someone to hit me upside the head and knock sense into me sometimes. The perspective from someone who has been there is very much appreciated.
It was a big backslide, but like a lot of our wives, my wife is a big avoider. This is why she hates going to the counselor. She would go forever w/o dealing with things. I have fought with patience obviously lost this battle, and will need to do better in the future.
I let her rationalizing get the best of me. Watching her act so loving to our S was killing me. All I could think about was that she's going to have "the conversation" with him and unseat his entire life. I started getting angry with her for being so selfish and not even giving me a shot to save him from having to go through this.
Part of my problem is that my parents split when I was his age. I have never forgotten the moment my Dad told me that Mommy isn't coming home....his crying that night. It's been 26 years.
I talked to two friends in the past 2 days that told me of conversations with each their daughters who still cry that they want to be a family again. One split for 3 yrs, one for 6. My parents still say that they wish they would have made different decisions. It's so hard to hear that she feels getting a D will just fix everything and deliver her to her "happiness," when I KNOW that it doesn't just go away.
GIMA, you are 100% right. I need to drop it. Back off. Stop living in fear, but my instinct to protect my son from something that see as unnecessary is so strong. I WILL NEED TO BE STRONGER. You are right..that strategy is my only hope.
9 1/2 months is a long time. We've had a lot of ups in those months though.
Watching her act so loving to our S was killing me.
I understand. Since the bomb, my W has not told me she loves me (I haven't either). When she tells one of our kids she loves them, just hearing the words gets my attention.
All I could think about was that she's going to have "the conversation" with him and unseat his entire life.
If this occurs, and I hope it doesn't, you BOTH should be there. This is a non-negotiable for me. And even then, let HER do ALL the talking. If I have to do this, I plan to tell my W ahead of time that she will tell them, and that I will be there and that she is not to tell them anything indicating this is a joint decision or that I agree with it. At the end, I will ask the kids if they have any questions for me, and that's going to be it.
This goes along with the I will not resist, but I won't assist thinking.
Part of my problem is that my parents split when I was his age. I have never forgotten the moment my Dad told me that Mommy isn't coming home....his crying that night. It's been 26 years.
I understand man. I came from a D'd family too. My parents D'd when I was an infant, so I do not have any memories of that. But, my mom and step father (who really raised me) had a very caustic R for as long as I can remember. Mom's on 4th H.
My parents still say that they wish they would have made different decisions. It's so hard to hear that she feels getting a D will just fix everything and deliver her to her "happiness," when I KNOW that it doesn't just go away.
YOU know that (and you are correct). But, she is in the fog and cannot see that. And the LAST person she is going to listen to or trust is...guess who? So, if you give her lots of space, and live your changes and new attitude, maybe, just maybe, she will start to trust you enough or pause before proceeding. If you keep pushing, you are not going to like the result.
9 1/2 months is a long time. We've had a lot of ups in those months though.
That is a while,but it took her a LOT longer to get where she is.
How long have you been living your changes?
I want to chime in here about w telling the kids she loves them. It strikes me, too when I hear her say ILY to my boys. My little guy (4) runs around the house telling us he loves us, do we love him? He'll go to W and say ILY mommy, do you love me? she will answer of course, then he'll come to me, ILY daddy, do you love me? I always wait for the next question, Mommy, do you love daddy? So far it hasn't come. But still, hearing her voice say ILY, the one that used to say it to me, burns a bit.
Orich - I totally get you. We had a rainstorm last night. S slept with me. He has done that a couple of times recently. W comes in and kisses him good night, all lovingly and sweet...then walks out of the room w/o saying a word to me.
Funny, last Wed and Thurs she stuck her head in and sweetly said Good night to me (son not in my room those nights) but after IC appt she went cold.
Part of hearing/seeing her so loving on S that gets to me is me fighting the "if you love him so much why aren't you fighting to keep his family together" thought. I get the how and why she sees it this way, but it still doesn't mean that I like it.
GIMA - I have been living my changes only a couple of months. I know it takes time and I mentioned that during our "conversations" this weekend.
You're dead on with all of your advice. I need to do a better job of following it.
Funny thing...with all of the Ups & Downs we have gone through periods of being "back together," (some periods more back together than others) where we were saying ILY, ML, sleeping in same bed, watching movies together etc. I have had some version of "The Bomb" dropped on me no less than 5 times.
It's the good times that have kept me going. Every time we slide though she said that she wasn't feeling the good times though. Bamn! Pow! Right in the gut!
GMA,
exactly! If she loves her sons so much, why is she breaking apart the family? And then of course the self-pitying 'what have I done that is so terrible that you cant say ILY to me anymore?'
Also, I have noticed with my W, too, that after her IC appts she is cold and distant. I do know that they were at least at one point working on moving on after leaving me.
Every time we slide though she said that she wasn't feeling the good times though. Bamn! Pow! Right in the gut!
This is going to keep happening for a while. It is completely normal for her to pull back after a particularly good time. Remember, she's confused and sorting through a lot.
Once you know its coming, it's a lot easier (not easy) to deal with.
I got that a bunch of times. One time we went on a long road trip to attend her nephew's graduation from college, and figured we make a weekend of it. We drove 8 hours and had a fantastic time the whole way up, laughing and joking, eating snacks and just generally having a very good time. This after weeks of avoidance and "I don't love you". We stayed at a hotel, went to the graduation, again having a lot of fun. Afterwards, we found some fun things to do up there, museums, wine tasting, etc. She even reached out to hold my hand!!! I was in heaven! We shopped for things to fill her curio cabinet, etc. Then on the ride home, we laughed and joked again, having a good time well into the night. She held my hand again, in the car for at least an hour while we drove home.
One week later, she says she was "forcing it", that she really didn't feel it, but thought if she pushed herself she could recapture her feelings for me.
That was a huge kick in the chest for me.
One week later, she says she was "forcing it", that she really didn't feel it, but thought if she pushed herself she could recapture her feelings for me.
That's cuz love isn't a feeling. It's a decision. But you know that. It takes work to create the feelings, they don't just happen.
I know that and you know that. Hopefully after our Retrouvaille weekend, W will know that. I will say, of all the ups and downs I have been through during this process, that particular one was the most heart-wrenching. I really thought we were going to be fine. I mean, I'm not kidding, we had more fun that weekend than we have had in a long time. Then I find out that it was "artificial". That was the first time I felt true abject anger and sadness.
Then I find out that it was "artificial".
I suspect it was not artificial. Rather, I think it scared her and confused her. I don't doubt she thinks it was artifical, or that she convinced herself it was to ease her guilt.
From what you are describing, she hasn't completely checked out. None of us know what's going to happen, but her actions should give you some hope. Remeber, don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do.
Hang in there.
Right, I put that in quotes because that is what she wanted me to believe. That weekend, coupled with the text message I got a few weeks ago where she wrote she must still love me, and a few small things help me to see that she hasn't completely checked out. And this fact is my lifeline, it is what keeps me going during the Great Sadness.
Uh. So painful to read about your weekend. Boy can I relate. About 6 weeks ago we had neighborod families over for a movie night. (kids movie). w pulled me aside (where no one could see) and kissed me. She held my hand three times during the movie (she picked up my hand..I didn't each for hers.)
That was the last time we kissed.
Uh. So painful to read about your weekend. Boy can I relate. About 6 weeks ago we had neighborod families over for a movie night. (kids movie). w pulled me aside (where no one could see) and kissed me. She held my hand three times during the movie (she picked up my hand..I didn't each for hers.)
That was the last time we kissed.
Well...I have to be honest. I was scared to go home yesterday. Elephant sitting on my chest scared. It was a horrible weekend. This far into it and I still care this much.
I have had times when I was more detached than others. As soon as she starts bringing up D, and I start thinking of my son the detachment goes away. Even though it's been 9 mos, it was only just over a month ago that we were in the same bed, she had her ring on, and we were planning a family trip (eventually cancelled)for her B'day.
I made sure I got home later than usual. Shen I got home, W and S7 were playing in his room. She greeted me with something along the lines of "Hi, if you take over here, I will go get dinner started." Inside I was asking myself "WTF? Last night you told me you were filing this week to follow your "path" and now it's 'I'll go get dinner ready?'"
In the past I would have pushed to find out what was really going on in there. Now I'll just play along. After my backsliding this weekend, I want to detach, give space and GAL for a while.
W is planning a trip to see family this weekend. She is taking S7. This never happened before the Bomb. We always went as a family. Part of my 180 was to say sure, go ahead, have fun. In an effort to get a little space from my backsliding I told her I was OK with them heading out a few days early if she wanted to.
I think a little time apart would do us some good.
Not much was said between us last night, but she's still there for now.
I made sure I got home later than usual. Shen I got home, W and S7 were playing in his room. She greeted me with something along the lines of "Hi, if you take over here, I will go get dinner started." Inside I was asking myself "WTF? Last night you told me you were filing this week to follow your "path" and now it's 'I'll go get dinner ready?'"
Totally normal. You are not the only one on a rollercoaster (detaching will get you off of it and then you can just watch her on it). Now that she seems to be going up, expect the down soon.
In the past I would have pushed to find out what was really going on in there. Now I'll just play along. After my backsliding this weekend, I want to detach, give space and GAL for a while.
Good. Very good. Act like nothing is wrong. In fact, you are the happiest person around her. Just b/c you are. Fake it at first if you have to.
W is planning a trip to see family this weekend. She is taking S7. This never happened before the Bomb. We always went as a family. Part of my 180 was to say sure, go ahead, have fun. In an effort to get a little space from my backsliding I told her I was OK with them heading out a few days early if she wanted to.
Good here as well. Now, find something you have wanted to do when she's gone but you have not been able to. Get outdoors, go for a hike, play golf, go fishing. Something, anything. Stay busy and have fun.
And when she's gone, don't call, txt or email, unless it is to talk to son, and then only once a day (I chose night, just before bed when W went out of town with the kids the 1st time after the bomb). If SHE calls you, cool. Just let HER be the one who initiates.
I've gotten a lot better at not calling, leaving it alone (recent weekend aside), etc...
My damn impatience has gotten to me though. It seemed like we were drifting further apart. I wanted to send her little funny texts...try to be her friend. She REALLY doesn't want me to be her friend right now though. She just wants to be left alone.
Odd. She's talked about feeling lonely. She's locked herself in our extra bedroom ("her" room now) and complained about being lonely!...when our son and I were right downstairs.
Her friend has told her that she creates her own problems. I sucks to be where I(most of us on this site) are, but honestly I would imagine that it would suck more to be in her shoes.
Her friend has told her that she creates her own problems. I sucks to be where I(most of us on this site) are, but honestly I would imagine that it would suck more to be in her shoes.
Neither are good, but you have a plan.
I can relate to the patience issue - I have had to work on that A LOT. But, once you realize time is your friend (even though it doesn't seem that way), it gets a lot easier.
Unfortunately, SHE has to work hrough her issues. No one else (not you or her firned(s)) can do it for her.
Just use this time to improve you so you will be ready for whatever comes your way.
Her friend can't help her work through the issues, but than God her friend's not a toxic friend who is advocating that W runs out on our family.
Her friend can't help her work through the issues, but than God her friend's not a toxic friend who is advocating that W runs out on our family.
Absolutely. I can't tell you the time and energy I wasted initially worrying about what my W's friends were telling her she should do. Best to let that go. It is good to know she has friends who aren't helping her out the door though.
...and back to acting like all is normal. shes not leaving town early...and scheduled our carpets to be cleaned throughout our house this week.
Oh my. The conflict she must be going through.
I'm just going with it. I decided to watch a movie with my son. She went to her friend's house.
I think this was the third trip to the friend's house today. Oh well, I pretty much roll with it anymore. It leaves me no wonder why she says it seems like there's no spark between us. No wonder, we're hardly in the same room.
Hard to roll with it. She got home at 12:15 last night. Then just texted me that she will be out tonight. Actually just said "can you be home for the night with S after 8." I just said "yep." No asking why. No telling me why.
Argh!!! I'm detaching...I'm detaching.
It doesn't bother me as much as it used to. Not nearly as much. It seems SOOO disrespectful to treat your husband this way, but as it's been pointed out to me before, she's all about her right now and is not emotionally in our marriage anymore. The last thing that she wants to do is have to explain herself to me.
I might "get it," but it doesn't mean that I have to like it.
Dude, i am so with you right now!
Then just texted me that she will be out tonight. Actually just said "can you be home for the night with S after 8." I just said "yep." No asking why. No telling me why.
You make plans for yourself and turn the tables on her. "Hey Wife I am going out on Fri and Sat night. You need to stay home."
It seems SOOO disrespectful to treat your husband this way,
SOOO stop letting her treat you this way. You have a choice in how you handle things.
WARNING: ---Woe is me moment---
I had another dream last night that she was next to me. Third night in the past two weeks that I had this dream.
Have you ever had that happen?
Waking up from that sucks! Makes it harder to detach.
I'm still further along in this area than I was a month ago though.
You are dead on here.
It doesn't bother me as much as it used to. Not nearly as much. It seems SOOO disrespectful to treat your husband this way, but as it's been pointed out to me before, she's all about her right now and is not emotionally in our marriage anymore. The last thing that she wants to do is have to explain herself to me.
And here,
I might "get it," but it doesn't mean that I have to like it.
You won't like it, and it would be unusual if you did. I understand. This is where the detaching saves you. It doesn't happen overnight. Just have to be strong.
GMA, not only have I had that dream, when I wake up, she really is there next to me... But I can't do a damn thing!
BTW, oddly enough, lately I have been dreaming that I get a huge apology from W and have make up sex, only to discover half way through that I am ML to my first wife! WTF? I must really be screwed up!
Thanks for your thought and feedback Coach. I've read a lot of what you have said on the boards here and you really seem to have it together.
Since I will have S tonight, I will have to come up with something fun for us to do. (As an added bonus, we'll have to leave before she does and do something fun enough that she will feel like she's missing out.) Primary thing will be to go out and do something for S and myself though.
As far as not "letting" her treat me this way, I'm not sure how else to respone to a text like that. It doesn't phase her a bit if I go out on nights she's home. She generally seems to appreciate being left alone!
I can't ask her where she's going because she says it's "controlling." I can't say anything about her going out 3-4 nights a week because she "needs her freedom" and I'm trying to detach.
Any suggestions?
Maybe at this point you'll take what you can get. Ha Ha.
My W is on her fourth stint in the extra bedroom. 5 weeks on this time. The last few months when we were sleeping together were basically as roommates anyway.
My W is on her fourth stint in the extra bedroom. 5 weeks on this time. The last few months when we were sleeping together were basically as roommates anyway.
I got you beat there - been sleeping alone since April 20. There are others here with a lot longer stints than that.
But, the pillows are starting to look "attractive."
Where does your W go when she "needs her freedom"?
Detached means you let go of the outcome. Detached does not mean you are a doormat and don't set boundaries. Boundaries are when behavior is unacceptable. Knowing where your wife is going to be is not controlling, her response to you would be unacceptable to me.
You need to start leading.
My W spent a total of 2 nights on the couch since we stopped being intimate, and that was over a month ago. We have been in the same bed for the duration, and it is difficult. I have to stagger my bedtime to hers, I go before her to be asleep when she gets in, or less desireably, crawl in after she is asleep. But every night I am reminded of what I am missing when I see her lying there in our marital bed.
Where does your W go when she "needs her freedom"?
Detached means you let go of the outcome. Detached does not mean you are a doormat and don't set boundaries. Boundaries are when behavior is unacceptable. Knowing where your wife is going to be is not controlling, her response to you would be unacceptable to me.
You need to start leading.
She usually goes to her girlfriend's house. She has gone out to dinner with friends, hung out at a neighbor's house etc. For awhile, she was hitting bars and drinking A LOT. Thankfully that has calmed down. I have no idea where she's going tonight. If I were to ask, she would throw a fit.
I may know that it's not controlling, and you know that it's not controlling, but she doesn't. If I tell her my opinion, or ask her to do something differently she says that I am "coercing" or "manipulating" her. Powerful words. Fighting it does not work. I'm trying to "stop doing things that don't work."
Thoughts?
HA!
I'm not letting it get to me as much, but just to share the bat-sh*t crazy behavior that I am dealing with. The W just called to chat paying bills and ask me about a recent paycheck. She joked and was playful.
THIS is why I called my thread UPS & DOWNS! The last conversation we had was her telling me she's filing, she will NEVER commit to me, she needs to follow her path, I will go insane if I stay here any longer, and finished with "Fine! I'll die here unhappy! I'm not going anywhere!"
I think that I am going to wake up and find that I am not really me, but a man in a padded room somewhere. If I'm not already, I'm headed there.
The last conversation we had was her telling me she's filing, she will NEVER commit to me, she needs to follow her path, I will go insane if I stay here any longer, and finished with "Fine! I'll die here unhappy! I'm not going anywhere!"
How did you respond?
I can't remember the exact wording, but basically, "I'm so sorry that you have been hurting, I can't imagine how difficult this has been for you, I have not held you here and you could have gone at any point in the past 9 months. I have asked you to please think about this for the sake of our son and try to find happiness within our family." I also asked what I could do to better help.
She said that she has seen amazing changes in me in the past couple of months but they haven't changed how she has felt about me so we must not be "meant to be together." I said that I would not expect her feelings to change so quickly if she has been hurting and developing resentment over such a long period. I also said that we shouldn't leave our family's future to fate. We need to make a committment to work together, not wait for fate to fix things.
There was a LOT of other !@#$!@#$% that came out, but that was the just of it. (along with "please don't swear at me or call me names. I am not raising my voice to you...)
Well, she wasn't too late last night. I heard her come at around 11:15. She did say that she was going to her friend's house before she left.
An old friend of mine called me at work yesterday. He said he had just talked to my W as he accidentally called my house instead of my cell phone. They talked for nearly a 1/2 hour.
He has been D for around 7 years. His daughter still has trouble with it. It sounded like my buddy hit W pretty hard with how rough D can be and how wee really need to try to work things out. "Freaking great," thought. I was just trying to give her space after this weekend and now she's going to feel pushed into a corner again. I thought about calling and telling W that I had nothing to do with the call, but I let it go.
When I got home, she wa chatty (I used to initiate all conversations...not any more). She eventualy brought up the call with my friend. She said she really got something out of it. (didn't tell me WHAT she got out of it and I didn't ask)
It was weird. She seemed to want to talk with me last night and all I wanted to do is get the hell away from her. I don't really like conversations with her anymore. Our conversations consist of her being cold and hurtful. I leave them feeling like crap. So, even when it seems like time to talk and something good could be said, I just want to run the other way.
Can anyone tell me how to all a link to my thread in my signature?
Just for my own blogging purposes, more "Happy Face" at the GMA house. She made dinner, started lots of conversation and even asked about my day last night. We've been through this before. After a couple of days or a week, she can't keep it up so she starts being mean, withdrawln, or inconsiderate (dropping the bait). In the beginning, I jumped right on it and eventually said something snotty, passive/aggressive, or complained. I don't do it so much now though. That seems to get to her more.
I have been receptive, but not too receptive. I am not initiating conversations. Lots of time in the garage or working in the yard. (I have always been the persuer)
I really think this is her way of "trying" but it hasn't been effective. We need new tools. I haven't shared DB with her, but as we all know doing the same thing and expecting different results doesn't work. Since she's not changing her tactic, I will have to keep changing my response.
She's out of town (w/S7) this weekend. That's definitely a change from our past. She would never have gonr out of town w/o me. It will be a good break for both of us.
Well, I got a lot done this weekend. I made sure the projects around the house were taken care of. I read, and even got out with a friend most of Saturday.
My son called each night they were gone and I talked to W two of the nights. Short and sweet (smile and wave as I read somewhere...I like that one). Just asked about their day. Wished them well for the next day.
I got the book "His Needs, Her Needs." It was good. I didn't agree with everything, but the overall concept was good. I think I let my Love Bank for me run dry.
Strange - when they came home, she continuted to "Smile & Wave" herself. She made chatty conversation and seemed excited to show me the pictures from their weekend. I'm kind of conflicted on this. I think it's a good thing, but it's kind of weird considering that it was pictures of the "Hubby isn't allowed weekend." Kind of hurtful considering that everyone else in her family was doing the stuff that I used to be included in. They she came home and talked all about it, kind of like the reason that I wasn't there is because I had to work or something and not because she didn't want me to go!
I'm sticking with the smiling and waving.
In the mean time, I started the book "The Dance of Anger," which may help to understand my W a a little better.
hi gma. i have been reading your sitch with interest. Is it possible that you are the one that is detaching now?
i have always had an issue with lovingly detaching because it can easily close off your heart from the original goal.
It is very possible.
I haven't lost sight of my goal, but I am less emotional about her every move. That's for sure.
I am still doing some things to be a good guy (for myself and for her). I made sure the house was spotless when she got home, had gone grocery shopping, and cooked dinner when they got home. I didn't make a big deal out of it though.
When she has goten chatty, it has made me uncomfortable. I'll chat for a bit then go for a walk or find something else to do. I'm afraid to talk to her for long. It was only a week ago that she told me she is filing (again). I don't really want to talk to her like I used to. It's either cold and superficial or spiteful and hurtful. Nothing really in between.
I also spend the whole time telling myself "remember to ask questions, validate, don't criticize or be judgemental, don't take over the conversation..." It's very tiring.
Yes to answer your question. I am detaching, but trying to do some loving things too. Any suggestions?
i have always had an issue with lovingly detaching because it can easily close off your heart from the original goal.
Detaching just means you accept that you don't control the outcome. Read up on the Stockdale Paradox that helped me with the concept of detachment.
be her best friend?
i have been using that approach with my waw and it seemed to set a foundation for it.
the feedback i got from her was that she loves being carefree about the sitch. she gets anxious when we bring stuff up and i always fall for that!!!!
Here is what is working for me:
1 confidence
2 needing her without being too needy
3 laughter
4 putting her at ease and letting her put me at ease. this is crucial. i think women want to know that they can also fix things. that they are not weak but equal. i truly believe that most of the issues at hand here are about teamwork. if a wife feels that her place in the M is just as important as the H then that tends to lead to her thinking that she is no longer the bad guy.
but it is imperative that you know its not just your fault. she needs to know that she had a huge part in it too.
make sense?
it is easy to tell other about it but hard when you have to do it yourself.
I also spend the whole time telling myself "remember to ask questions, validate, don't criticize or be judgemental, don't take over the conversation..." It's very tiring.
Yes to answer your question. I am detaching, but trying to do some loving things too. Any suggestions?
This is a tough one to get your head around. B/c, your impulse is to withdraw, not detach. And they are NOT the same thing.
I suppose the best way I worked at this was to understand that the negative feelings I had (and still have) for my W resulted from W hurting me. It did not mean I no longer love her, just that I temporarily have negative thoughts about her.
So, you need to buy into the premise that "love is a decision" and NOT a feeling. Right or wrong, it's your W's FEELINGS that got her where she is. If we know we cannot make a sound decision based on feelings, then it makes sense that love should not, and I submit cannot, be based upon feelings. Rather, love is the decision to love someone despite what they are doing to you right now.
Consequently, in my little mind, detachment differs from withdrawal in that detachment is making the decision to love my W despite the current situation while, at the same time, accepting that the old M is over. If a new one develops, then great. If it doesn't, then I know I tried everything I could and improved ME. Obviously, working on YOU is a BIG part of detaching.
Tough conept to understand and tougher to implement.
Another thought I used was to treat my W as a hot, female co-worker. I wanted to flirt with her, but not too much that I would get in trouble for fishing off the company pier.
Been a long day, so if I missed the mark on your question, sorry.
Thanks for the feedback guys.
Last night she continued to be chatty. She even came outside to sit on the patio with me. It was kind of surreal. We've been through these "ups & downs" before. It's not that the ring is back on, we're not holding hands or anything, but it was strange to have her come with with me, talk about her day and how good the flowers in our back yard will look next year. She's excited to see how they fill in next year?
It takes everything I have to stop saying "what??? I thought you're moving out???" God this feels like it's such a game to her!
It does seem that she is trying. The problem is that she is still trying by herself, not inviting me to try with her, and still keeping me in the dark. (If we're trying, let's work together, share thoughts and feelings and get some new tools to make it work) She's trying with the same old tools...so we all know...we can't expect new results.
I'll do my best to respond to the old tools differently. Maybe it will be enough to get us started in the right direction at least.
BTW...after hanging out with me in the back patio she went to her girlfriend's house until some time between 1:30-2:00 am.
I think that my detachment is becoming withdrawl. I know my goal is to create a happy family and develop a happy marriage, but my tendency lately is keep my distance. Maybe too much.
The W just called me at work. She said it was about paying bills, but it wasn't anything that she really needed me for. I think it was mostly to chit chat. This is her way of trying.
It's hard for me to chit chat any more though. We've gone through this before. It starts to feel like things are good for a week or so, then...BAMN! It's hard to waht to spend time with her and have superficial conversations when I've been through this so many times before.
I think that I have been too quick to jump back in with both feet previously. As part of my "doing something different" I'm going to have to go a lot slower this time. Let's see if she becomes the persuer.
GMA I can identify. Right now W isn't really talking to me, she is even avoiding me. Just a few days ago she was talking about the house and what improvements we should make on it. Even joked and laughed a few times. Then suddenly, she turned completely off. So when and if she warms up a bit again, I don't know how quickly I will jump back into happy conversation mode.
It does seem that she is trying. The problem is that she is still trying by herself, not inviting me to try with her, and still keeping me in the dark. (If we're trying, let's work together, share thoughts and feelings and get some new tools to make it work)
She doesn't sound ready for this. You said it yourself in your last post, take it slow. She may still be at the point of trying to convince herself to try the "together" thing. I think my W is there as well.
The question is, what do YOU want? REALLY want? Would you be happy walking out at this point? Your call.
The detachment v. withdrawal thing is a real issue. Detachment is healthy in our sitchs. Withdrawal is a defensive mechanism (consciously or subconsciously) to minimize the hurt you fear might come or it can simply be anger at what she's doing. I understand it, b/c I'm there too.
Search yourself for what you want, and consider ALL the consequences. Unlike your W when she made a decision to bring up her unhappiness, you have a much better perspective (given you being on this board and reading DB) than she did.
Just think it through is all I'm saying.
The detachment v. withdrawal thing is a real issue. Detachment is healthy in our sitchs. Withdrawal is a defensive mechanism (consciously or subconsciously) to minimize the hurt you fear might come or it can simply be anger at what she's doing. I understand it, b/c I'm there too.
Yep, withdrawal is fear based. Not the vibe you want to project.
Detachment means you can thrive with either outcome - reconciliation or D. Stockdale Paradox/Spiers Doctrine. You are already dead, so don't fear any Mo Fo.
Which demeanor, attitude, mojo, vibe, or presence do you want to project? You are being watched closely.
Strength and Honor
Coach
I think I might be withdrawing rather than detaching. I will have to double check myself. Egad.
I think that there's some detaching, in that I just don't have the same concern of what she does and where she goes as I used to and that I am developing a lot more of a life that doesn't involve her.
There is definitely some withdrawing as well. I don't really want to talk to her when she wants to talk to me. Just like you guys said, it's a protection thing. You're dead on there.
Some of it is just that I don't like the person that she is right now too.
I sometimes wonder...what will be the catalyst that prompts bringing limbo to an end.
The W will talk one day about how the flowers in our yard will look next year and the next (last night) spend two hours getting all primped and prissy in order to go out for "dinner" with our neighbor. (female neighbor)
I guess I'm not as detached as I thought. Not that long ago, it would have really rattled me to think that my wife was going out without me. It still bothers me...especialy since she refuses to go out with me, but will put a ton of effort into going out with someone else. Also because she doesn't wear her ring any more. (I still do) The level of disrespect that I feel this screaming in the face of me, our marriage, and our family is immeasurable.
We didn't talk much last night. The time between me getting home and her "going out" was pretty much spent with her upstairs playing dress up. It's hard to believe that this is the same girl who used to never go out and was comfortable with just a touch of makeup, worn out blue jeans and an oversize T-shirt.
She missed tucking in S7 once again. She was home at 11:30. (better than 2:00am I guess)
I understand that people need friends and to go out, but 3-4 nights a week, coming in at all hours is a bit much.
GMA,
On the weekends W will talk about when the boys are older, we will do this, or lets redo the front stoop on the house, all sorts of stuff about the future as if we will all be a together as a family. Then, during the week, either she comes home for dinner and leaves to go out with friends getting all dolled up like you said, or sometimes I will just get a text message that she isn't coming home after work, tell the boys she will see them in the morning. At least she hasn't taken her rings off, but who knows how long until they come off.
When we are home together, there is no conversation other than necessary stuff.
She used to tell me she would be happy not going out at all. Her idea of a perfect evening was the 2 of us cuddled together on the couch watching tv.
It still bothers me that she goes out without me. Sometimes, if I am in a particularly sadistic mood, I'll look at the pictures she puts up on myface of her evenings. She also usually is out until midnight sometimes.
When I pick up the boys after work, the first thing they ask me now is will mommy be home for dinner tonight?
The conflict that must be going on in their heads...
It sounds like your W and mine have so much in common. The dedicated W/Mom has to be in there somewhere. I think it's like the old frosted mini-wheats commercials...The responsible, loving caring mature side of me likes the one side... and the underserved, irresponsible, party-girl likes the frosted side. Can't we just crush them up in some milk and come out with a nice balance
The pictures are brutal. I F-ing hate them. I've stopped looking. Honestly I think that it's kind of a highschool girl thing to do to take a picture of yourself in a bar or a party and post them for the "Hey, aren't I cool" effect.
As you may pick up, I am having a resentful spell myself.
Orich - I saw you were having a particularly tough day yesterday. How are things thig morning?
Not much better. It's weird, all of a sudden it just kinda hit me again. I woke up this morning after little sleep and I must have been having a pleasant dream because I was feeling pretty good for about half a second, and then suddenly I was kicked in the chest with the realization of what is going on again. I fell asleep driving into work, fortunately the rumble strips on the expressway woke me up. I am now on my third red-bull trying to stay awake. I did fall asleep at my desk earlier, and I was having a wonderful dream about W, when I woke up, our wedding song was playing on the radio. Then I got really sad.
I can't believe your W puts pics up too. Are we married to the same W? I get calls from mutual friends saying Wow, looks like you guys had fun last night, were you the one holding the camera? Or from friends who know what is going on with us: WTF? How could she go out like that and leave you home?
I've thought about the "end game" and posted a thread on here once as well. Basically, I think it is when the WAS says "ok let's make this work."
For you all dealing with WAS staying out late and such, I think you need to put a foot down and set some limits. If this is not "normal" pre-bomb behavior, then it is a good idea to think about saying enough. While you are in a relationship, sharing a home, and being parents that is not acceptable. If and when you separate and live apart, then they have to get a sitter or whatever to do that junk, but don't let yourself get run over now.
If my wife is your wife, than I am you.
I fell asleep in my car at lunch Tuesday. (lots of coffee in place of Red Bull) It comes and goes though. Some weeks I have been stronger and more detached. Everyone pounds it to death on here, but they're right. It's the only way to get sanity for yourself and stop pressing the W.
I was reading on your thread about the plan. I think they do have a general "Goal" of happiness, but constantly change their "plan" of how to get there. The plan that we have is the DB stuff - doing something diferent, detaching, waiting for them to initiate R talks, getting a life etc. That needs to be our plan.
My W's plan seems to change daily.
Go back to my thread, GIMA just gave an excellent post that I got a lot out of...
And I think we are the same person. I just don't like coffee.
I've thought about the "end game" and posted a thread on here once as well. Basically, I think it is when the WAS says "ok let's make this work."
I sure hope so. I've mentioned that I have been talking a lot to a cousin who is a former WAW herself (very insightful). This is pretty much what she says too. I think you're right on the money.
For you all dealing with WAS staying out late and such, I think you need to put a foot down and set some limits. If this is not "normal" pre-bomb behavior, then it is a good idea to think about saying enough. While you are in a relationship, sharing a home, and being parents that is not acceptable. If and when you separate and live apart, then they have to get a sitter or whatever to do that junk, but don't let yourself get run over now.
I would love to put my foot down. That would really be more of the same though. I know exactly how this would go. We've been there before. Not putting my foot down is the 180 from where I was pre-bomb.
Another conversation starting with "you can't control me," and ending with "this is why our marriage will never work," followed by her telling me she is filing for divorce and leaving for the night anyway would be a big set back at this point.
I would love to put my foot down, but I don't feel the timing is right.
I understand, but sometimes a 180 is not what you need. You need to also have self-respect. Just act like you are room mates, saying something like "I don't want to control you, but doing x is disrespectful to me and our child. As long as we are in the same house, you should not be out late multiple nights a week." Something like that, others on this board can help and have done the same thing. I have too. The point is to stand up for yourself while not being controlling.
Go back to my thread, GIMA just gave an excellent post that I got a lot out of...
And I think we are the same person. I just don't like coffee.
I read his post. It's very well thought out. It's hard to do, but well thought out.
I wich I was better at setting my internal monologue on marriage vows and what this will do to our son aside for a while. It's completely unnatural when you want to fight for what's right, your values, marriage, and kid(s). I read it. I get it. And I even do it sometimes. But I completely understand your having a hard time with it. I do too.
I understand, but sometimes a 180 is not what you need. You need to also have self-respect. Just act like you are room mates, saying something like "I don't want to control you, but doing x is disrespectful to me and our child. As long as we are in the same house, you should not be out late multiple nights a week." Something like that, others on this board can help and have done the same thing. I have too. The point is to stand up for yourself while not being controlling.
Does your wife have fears of being "controlled" too? How did this work for you?
btw...W and I have gotten into it pretty hard each of the past two weekends, she said she's filing, and I decided back way off.
Another day and more of the same.
I'm just going with the flow for now. *Patience* --- *Faith* I have been told. (I said these sound like stripper names)
More awkwardness at home. More superficial conversation. More clearly uncomfortable. More she'll go for a walk in the neighborhood, then I'll go for a walk. She'll go downstairs when I go upstairs and vice versa.
Nothing bad, but nothing good. Just limbo. Little small talk.
Still seems strange...the talk about the flowers next year, her talking to my sister about Christmas this year. It feels like if we're going to be together then put your ring on and let's try to work on things together. I realize it's not that easy, but part of me wonders why not. If you're in, be in. I'm not temperature taking any more though, so I'm not asking if she's in. ...like I said...taking it slower this time.
Anyway, it's Friday. Maybe it's my turn to stay out tonight
How do I still have these Ups & Downs myself???
Last night I could barely stand to look at her. Now I want to call her and tell her how much I love her!!!
I won't. But I want to.
Still seems strange...the talk about the flowers next year, her talking to my sister about Christmas this year. It feels like if we're going to be together then put your ring on and let's try to work on things together. I realize it's not that easy, but part of me wonders why not. If you're in, be in. I'm not temperature taking any more though, so I'm not asking if she's in. ...like I said...taking it slower this time.
The answer is she's NOT "IN" right now. She's in between IN and OUT, and she doesn't know which one to turn to. You giving her space, acting cool and working on you clears a path back to IN - but it's HER choice.
How do I still have these Ups & Downs myself???
Last night I could barely stand to look at her. Now I want to call her and tell her how much I love her!!!
Ups and downs are b/c you haven't yet detached. It doesn't happen like flipping a light switch. It takes time and then, it just happens. Keep working at it and it will come.
Oh, and DO NOT tell her you love her. Right now, it will only remind her she does not feel that way about you.
For what it's worth, I haven't told my W ILY or receieved that from her since very shortly after the bomb in April.
Hang in there. You can do this. Just keep repeating time is your friend. B/c it is even though it doesn't feel like it. She IS watching you.
You're right. As soon as I think that I am good and detached it seems that I have a relapse. At least I'm at a point where I don't have to act on it now.
I reraly initiate any contact with her anymore. I did send her a text to let her know I wouldn't be home for dinner a few minutes ago. (I didn't say why or when I would get there)
I'll enjoy myseld more heading out to dinner with a friend tonight. Maybe hit a comedy club.
That sounds like a good plan. Have fun. The M issues will still be there when you get home, so forget about them when you're out tonight.
It’s clear to me now that my detachment is becoming more and more of a withdrawal.
I went out Friday. Sent her a txt early in the afternoon that I wouldn’t make it home for dinner. Followed up at 7:30 and said, looks like I will be later than just missing dinner, I will call S7 before bed time. I had a good time, but still had lots of time about my whole sitch.
Funny, when I called to talk to S7 at 9:30 ish, W answered and asked where I had been. Just in a conversational way, but funny considering that she would freak out if I asked where she was. She seemed very interested.
Lots of distance over the weekend. I would to yard work, she was inside. I would watch TV with S, she would close herself in “Her” room (she openly refers to this as “her” room now…she had been calling it the extra bedroom for a while).
Saturday, she made a nice family dinner. We got a movie to watch together as a family. There was a little air of old times in the air as I ran to the store to get a couple of last minute dinner items and she was cooking in the kitchen. Just after dinner though, she got weird and went upstairs (took a bath, locked herself in “her” room again).
Later that night she came to me when S wasn’t around. It was clear something was bothering her and she wanted to talk. Our son came over and I played with him since I really didn’t want to get into THAT conversation again. I made sure to keep clear of her for the rest of the night. I REALLY didn’t want to have that conversation again. She had been drinking (again) and locked in her room after having family time. It was like the perfect storm. I successfully avoided it.
The next day we didn’t see each other much. We both spent time out of the house, but when we did come in contact, it was upbeat and chatty again. With that said, it was still strangely distant though.
I got sick last night. This is all getting too much for me. This is the longest that we have gone in separate rooms, no ring etc (6 weeks this time) and it seems like it will never end.
It’s clear to me now that my detachment is becoming more and more of a withdrawal.
Why? Is it true withdrawal or is it just you doubting your feelings for your W and the M? The latter is normal.
she would close herself in “Her” room (she openly refers to this as “her” room now…she had been calling it the extra bedroom for a while).
Yep, mine still does this. Mine goes back and forth - sometimes referring to her room as the guest room and sometimes calling it her room. Don't sweat this, but I understand how it makes you feel.
Saturday, she made a nice family dinner. We got a movie to watch together as a family. There was a little air of old times in the air as I ran to the store to get a couple of last minute dinner items and she was cooking in the kitchen. Just after dinner though, she got weird and went upstairs (took a bath, locked herself in “her” room again).
This is normal too. Maybe she's just taking small steps to get comfrotable around you. Maybe the roller coaster went back down during the movie. Who knows. Just stay the course. Gonna be a lot of ups and downs.
Later that night she came to me when S wasn’t around. It was clear something was bothering her and she wanted to talk. Our son came over and I played with him since I really didn’t want to get into THAT conversation again. I made sure to keep clear of her for the rest of the night. I REALLY didn’t want to have that conversation again. She had been drinking (again) and locked in her room after having family time. It was like the perfect storm. I successfully avoided it.
Good job here.
I got sick last night. This is all getting too much for me. This is the longest that we have gone in separate rooms, no ring etc (6 weeks this time) and it seems like it will never end.
What is it? Fatigue? I know it's emotionalliy draining - worse than my father's unexpected death in 2003. But, you have a choice - quit or keep fighting. You CAN do this.
Hows you detaching coming? I hear a lot of signs of you not being there yet. That's ok. Just recognize it and get back to work.
The withdrawal isn't an issue of doubting feelings. I have made a conscious decision to love and to see things through. It’s more of a feeling of not wanting to deal with her. Every time we have a conversation that is not superficial, it is the same “It’s not working…I’m leaving” speech. These are the only times where we talk about anything significant. I don’t want R talks myself at this point.
A few family members that I talk to this about have asked me “how long to you put up with this,” or “how long do you keep going?” W has asked me to “just let her go” too.
Here’s my thought on this: If an outsider was trying to come into your house and destroy your family, cause irreparable damage to your children, and take your wife away from you how long would you fight to protect them? If I went to my W and said as part of my “ true path to happiness” I need to hurt our son do you think she would step aside? God I hope not! I would expect her to fight with everything she had to protect him.
I really see that her want of a D would be doing irreparable damage to an almost 8 year old (having been 8 when my parents D’d). I have made all of the changes that she has asked and she still claims that it won’t work. (she’s right…it won’t if she won’t let it)
My way of fighting at this point is letting go, but I still see it as my way of fighting. It is NOT, and nor will ever be, giving up.
Something has been different since Saturday.
I saw a letter in the recycling that W skipped her IC appt for last week. I think it was about the time she opened that letter that she started getting weird(er) than normal.
Yesterday she took S7 out to her girlfriend's house and one of their family events for the evening. She brought him home around 8 and left again. She said she was going to have dinner with the GF. In the time she was home though she was really off. Distant. Seemed angry. Nothing specific, but it was clear.
As she was leaving, I saw in her planner (it was open and sitting out, I wasn't snooping) that she had an IC appt today. She hates going to the IC. She ALWAYS gets weird (emotionally raw as she calls it) surrounding these.
I know I can't affect it, and it's detrimental to detaching to even wonder, but I still do. Is the IC telling her to "follow her happiness" or to try to fix her family? I can't control the outcone, but I still wonder.
I went to bed early last night again. I could tell, nothing good was going to come from talking to the W last night. Extra sleep is always good too.
I sometimes wonder...what will be the catalyst that prompts bringing limbo to an end.
The level of disrespect that I feel this screaming in the face of me, our marriage, and our family is immeasurable.
The sooner you address the disrespect the sooner you will get out of limbo. It's all in your control how you handle it, not the outcome but what you do.
I sometimes wonder...what will be the catalyst that prompts bringing limbo to an end.
The level of disrespect that I feel this screaming in the face of me, our marriage, and our family is immeasurable.
The sooner you address the disrespect the sooner you will get out of limbo. It's all in your control how you handle it, not the outcome but what you do.
I am open to any suggestions.
I have always been the "take charge" guy. I think that's one of the things that originally attracted W to me. Growing up, getting a real job, providing for my family in tough times had taken some of that from me and I started to get whiny about stress and job issues. I still had no problem standing up for myself at home though. Eventually this is what seems to have made W feel controlled and unheard.
How can I still be strong and confident while at the same time not be controlling and be a good listener? I'm open to any suggestions?
Another thing...the more upbeat I am, the more it seems to pi$$ her off.
I want to be upbeat and fun to be around, but I think that she has so much resentment toward me still that she wants me to be "paying for it" not having a good time.
Anyone have any suggestions here?
Here’s my thought on this: If an outsider was trying to come into your house and destroy your family, cause irreparable damage to your children, and take your wife away from you how long would you fight to protect them?
Boundaries are what keep the outsiders out. Letting your wife do whatever she wants with no consequences when it distresses you is being a doormat. She has lost respect for you because she can push you around. Waiting to see if the outsider is going to leave on her own is not productive.
Another thing...the more upbeat I am, the more it seems to pi$$ her off.
That's her problem. You feeling good is a problem?????
Anger is good. It means she is still attached. If she becomes numb or disinterested beware. (Detachment is not disinterested BTW.)
She had been VERY detached. More angry again lately (after a couple of blowups a few weeks back) From what she says, the anger stems from her feeling trapped and not being able to leave without feeling guilty.
I have always been the "take charge" guy. I think that's one of the things that originally attracted W to me. Growing up, getting a real job, providing for my family in tough times had taken some of that from me and I started to get whiny about stress and job issues. I still had no problem standing up for myself at home though. Eventually this is what seems to have made W feel controlled and unheard.
How can I still be strong and confident while at the same time not be controlling and be a good listener? I'm open to any suggestions?
Anyone know how to PM? I'd love to get Alive and Kicking's thoughts on this, but I don't want to have to hijack anyone else's thread to get to her.
She sent me a txt to tell me she spent MORE $$ on clothes.
Whatever.
I did notice that it made me cringe just to see her name come up on my phone though. That sucks. I was SO in love with this woman less than a year ago.
Love is a decision, so I'm still in it to win it, but what a rotton reaction to your wife.
I am about to read this entire thread, take a pee break and then post...
Ooh crapolla, I got you mixed up with givingitmyall...I'll be back.
Ok, scratch that. It is you who asked for me...maybe you can change your name. LOL!!
Anyone know how to PM? I'd love to get Alive and Kicking's thoughts on this, but I don't want to have to hijack anyone else's thread to get to her.
PMs are disabled here. So, not much choice but to post on a thread. Hijacking is pretty well tolerated, just apologize, and hijack away!
Well, I'm here anyway...
I read the ENTIRE thread and boy did I learn a lot, even about my own notions of detachment vs. withdrawal.
My first thought on that, recognizing that I have reached a point of what I consider healthy detachment, withdrawal proceeded detachment...I had to withdraw some to get my bearings and secure my own mental health.
What you refer to here GMA, is not just words to me. I feel the torment and your mental health IS at stake.
I have received no better advice than from Coach. So re-read and seek out other threads he has posted on. If it doesn't resonate, than you are not ready. Don't beat yourself up (that is useless). Just keep going back to those posts and as you EXPERIENCE the truth of your sitch more and more, you will experience the words you read differently. People try to make this an intellectual exercise (I sure do), figure everything out, dissect, insist our sitches are unique in some way BUT, the 2x4s and diatribes (my own included) do NOT resonate until the receiver is ready.
So, take a breath, give yourself a break. This is tough stuff.
I had soooo many thoughts reading your thread, I should've taken notes. I'm going to formulate some thoughts specific to your sitch and come back in a few. I'm looking at this as paying it forward for all of the help I've gotten here...I want to give you my full attention since you asked for it.
Also, check out Smileysperson and Thinkers threads.
Gucci and robx nail a lot of issues regarding being a "man" and retrieving your nuts. Many are offended by their directness, bullying, assertiveness and directives to date but in my experience, I've gotten a LOT out of it if I look at the essence of what they are saying. So in every sitch, don't turn away thinking "that's not me or my sitch"...look a little deeper.
I relate very much to your W (scary as that is to admit) and even though my H left me, we were in that limbo for a loooong time. Wish he had been on here.
Back soon.
I still had no problem standing up for myself at home though. Eventually this is what seems to have made W feel controlled and unheard.
There is no better way to control than to accuse someone else of controlling (speaking from experience)...
she said she's filing, and I decided back way off.
Eventually, a la Thinker, you're probably going to tell her to sh*t or get off the pot already but hang tight, not there yet.
I really related to what you expressed about your own experience of divorce. This made me suicidal, not kidding.
My step-dad said something that really helped with this...how blessed my children are to have someone who can empathize and really be here for them. I cannot control their dad's behavior but I can be their rock. I can relate to them and help them in a way someone else could not.
It is little consolation but it helps and I remember it often.
I have been through the "conversation" and I survived (barely). H moved out and we're still breathing. The kids are hurting and confused and I'm still here mothering and handling it.
Coach says you can "handle it"...he said it to me and I answered in my mind "no I can't dammit, you don't understand." Guess what? I CAN handle it and I am!
There is no holy grail. There is no lifeline sometimes to help you make what feel like million dollar decisions (how to respond to x, what do I do about y)...eventually, when you are detached, you know what to do and if you "screw up" you don't sweat it because, hey, per Thinker, what is the worst she can do? Divorce you????
Do you see the freedom there? Tell me because I will back up and break it down if you don't.
I'm gonna go comb for more specifics.
I want to add that lucky me, I am also on the receiving end of the script now (well have been, I don't engage anymore) so I can relate to both you and your W...
At one point she said she was filing this week. I cried. I said I don't want S7 to have to go through this since we have never tried to work on this together. All we have done is "take space" and drift further apart. She kept going on about her "path" and eventually threw herself on "her" bed and cried, fine I'll stay here unhappy forever. I'll die unhappy. I tried to tell her that we don't have to be unhappy. None of us do. Please work with me to save our family and find happiness for all of us. She just yelled "I'm not leaving...I'll stay here unhappy forever!"
Sorry I'm all over the place here but picking what stands out for me.
I was you, saying this stuff. Trust me, if she stays out of guilt, she will be miserable and she will drink or leave or you will. She must find YOU attractive and want to be married to you. This took me soooo long to get. I wanted to hook H back in with logic and duty and guilt but that is a bit of projecting too. I mean what keeps you from giving up? Your undying love for W or fear? So, when she hears those words, she is hearing a concession that there is not much left for you two other than obligation, duty and fear...thus being miserable forever.
Make sense? You both need to want to be with each other and your ambivalence can serve you if you let it and give up on controlling the outcome for the kids (that is the hardest part for me). But, let's get real. You don't like her right now, she is not the last woman on the planet and she is not as committed as you would like her to be. I am not saying give up, I am saying get honest with yourself.
However, your wife is still there!!!! She sees what you see regarding the optimal being staying together. That is huge. She doesn't know how to get there.
Many people here talk about Retrouvaille and you can google it. I don't know you're W (obviously), but it sure sounds like you might be able to get her there and get those necessary tools.
Another thing...the more upbeat I am, the more it seems to pi$$ her off.
I want to be upbeat and fun to be around, but I think that she has so much resentment toward me still that she wants me to be "paying for it" not having a good time.
Anyone have any suggestions here?
Okay, I was her in this sitch. It p*ssed me off because we had huge issues that were not being dealt with...major financial issues, our sex life sucked, our M was in jeopardy. His glibness and jovial behavior was offensive to me and exhibited a lack of concern.
Perhaps if I felt that H was leading and handling the major issues, I could have appreciated his humor and playfulness.
So, are there areas where you are NOT taking care of business?
I don't know if this is DB or not but I would have just about dropped dead (or dropped my drawers) if H had presented a solution...for example, "This is Retrovaille, it is happening the weekend of X, I got the kids covered and I want you to come with me. Living like this is unacceptable to me and I see how unhappy it makes you and we need to do something about it now."
Wow, would I have dug that...
As it was, H would complain and drop little bombs about being miserable and he would try to get me to come out with him and he brought up seeing an old marriage counselor (one who I knew if we saw we would separate)...but he was always complaining or threatening and never took the lead to exhibit that he was invested in doing something constructive, something specific.
God, I hope I'm making sense here.
WOW. Thank you so much AAK for all of the time and effort that you put into your feedback here. There it will take me a while to ge through it all and get everything that I can from it.
First reaction though- You're right. There is a time when I will say eat sh*t or get off the pot. I fight that nearly every day. I look at my S7 and can't imagine putting him through it though.
Your point of view makes sense. I can't seem to get hers at this point though. I have to wonder if there is some MLC effect with the WAW stuff. Our finances have not been a problem, I have come to her with suggestions to get us on track, I have given her freedom etc. She even said that she has seen and appreciated the changes, but it's just not "meant to be," because she still doesn't "feel like she should." She just keeps going back to her "path to happiness" or her "true identity." It sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. Tie this in with late nights out, spending $$ like it's going out of style, dressing flashy, partying, and using highschool kid slang (looks and sounds ridiculous...but I'm judgemental). She's not even asking for any changes any more. She hasn't for months.
I pushed 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 weeks ago. She was completely checked out. She's angry now. During the arguments she acknowledged having a lot of anger and resentment at me still. She talked about how she had tried so hard to be everything that I wanted her to be and didn't feel that it was enough for me. She didn't feel like an equal. She felt criticized and judged. I mentioned a story that I read where a woman said "I tried for years and you didn't try with me, why should I try now? Just because you want to?" She said "Bingo!"
Now that makes sense. At least more than all of the "if it were meant to be" bologna.
From what I understand angry is better than ambivalent.
Last night was MORE OF THE SAME!!!
More her upstairs when I was down. Me outside when she was inside. More locked in the extra...I mean "her"...bedroom. Once again, she left at night time. This time she didn't say where she was going. I suspect that it was to get back at me for me going "out" last Friday. I didn't tell her where I was going then either. She asked and I told her about Friday though. I didn't ask her last night. I'm just letting it go.
I'm really starting to suspect OM. I've done some snooping and haven't seen much to indicate such though. Found one thing that indicates a flirty facebook exchange from a few months ago (on our 10 year anniversary noless), but I have accounted for nearly every evening that she has been out since then (sans the recent late night "walks").
Oh, one more addition about last night. One of my friends called. (W is friends with his W too). He offered us concert tickets to go out with them this weekend. I asked W if she was interested. Just a typical "(friend) called and offered. Do you want to go?" type attitude. Not needy, not mean.
She said she could be "uncomfortable" with that. I can get that with where we are, she wouldn't want to play happyface with our friends, but it was still somewhat hurtful. I responded "OK" and went for another long walk.
Funny little note...with all of this going on, would you believe she set coffee for me yesterday morning? She has given up coffee, but set it up to brew at the time I left for work (2 hours before she even gets up!)
I left a little note with a smily face that said thanks for the coffee.
How strange and out of place is this for a woman who will barely talk to me?
She even said that she has seen and appreciated the changes, but it's just not "meant to be," because she still doesn't "feel like she should." She just keeps going back to her "path to happiness" or her "true identity." It sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. Tie this in with late nights out, spending $$ like it's going out of style, dressing flashy, partying, and using highschool kid slang (looks and sounds ridiculous...but I'm judgemental). She's not even asking for any changes any more. She hasn't for months.
I'm really starting to suspect OM.
Yep.
I don't like to jump on the OM bandwagon but what stands out to me is that rather than introverting (depression), she is going out so much and spending money etc.
I turned into a homebody and barely wanted to go out...she is "finding herself"...some of the folks here can give you guidance regarding how to explore the OM issue further (AKA- snooping).
She spent a lot of time "finding herself" months back. She's gone a lot more introverted lately though. The time out recently has been staying at her GF's house until wee hours (wife says she feels too guilty to sleep) and "going for walks" a couple of times in the middle of the night recently.
Phone records don't have too much questionable activity (a couple of texts last month that I don't know), but she spends a LOT of time on her computer. With that said...so do I
AAK - good suggestion. I'm going to change my screen name. It seems too confusing and too close to givingitmyall. I'll just do a "formerly known as" in my signature.
(wife says she feels too guilty to sleep)
What the f is she sooo guilty about?
She says she feels horrible about what she's doing to our family. Wishes she didn't feel the way she did. Knows how much I love her and knows she doesn't feel the same way. Doesn't want to put our son through it etc.
I was very upbeat with her and even shared good work and family news with her yesterday. She was very receptive and things almost seemed normal for a 1/2 hr or so. I went and got pizza for dinner and we even ate together.
Once again, a few minutes of normalcy seemed to be too much for her pretty quickly. She said she was tired and went to "her" room for the evening at like 7:30. (she complained a little about being tired all of the time but not being able to sleep). She sat in there watching movies, but was up 1/2 the night again.
It is freaking brutal "playing happyface" but I think it needs to be done. Also brutal to hear her openly refer to "your" room and "my" room in place of "our" room and the "extra" room. I think it will bleed if I bite my tongue anymore. I'm getting better at it though. I have always been to the one that spoke first and thought second.
God give me strength...
There. I am now "Energizer Bunny."
Still GoingI realized last night that we are going on three weeks w/o any R talk. This has been the longest that we have gone in the over 10 months since the bomb. It would seem that we had been in a pattern of every 1 to 2 weeks I would have had enough of her dropping bait, being hurtful, etc, and I would pick at it.
I didn't get the DR book until last month, but I knew that I had to make changes. I was thinking "I've made changes...they've lasted a whole week...why isn't everything all better?"
OK, now I know this is going to take a
LOT more time thank that. Hey - I never said I was patient
ButI'm getting better.
More of same last night. Conversation for a few minutes when I got home. She came up with a reason to go do something with her GF. At least she was back early (9:30pm). I can't really blame her for leaving. It's very awkward at our house with us both there.
I'm really starting to suspect OM. I've done some snooping and haven't seen much to indicate such though. Found one thing that indicates a flirty facebook exchange from a few months ago (on our 10 year anniversary noless), but I have accounted for nearly every evening that she has been out since then (sans the recent late night "walks").
Accounted for nearly every evening....???
Her having an affair couldn't be more obvious if she sent you a picture....
She is in the midst of an affair. GUARANTEED.
THAT is the reason that what you are doing isn't working or going to work. First you need to smoke out that she IS (and she is) having an affair and then regroup and change your gameplan. She won't respect you until you show her that you weren't born yesterday.
Get wise...
Well it could be MLC behavior as well. As A woman, I must say that when I hit 40, I went out a lot too. I wouldn't drive yourself crazy unless you have proof.
Well it could be MLC behavior as well. As A woman, I must say that when I hit 40, I went out a lot too. I wouldn't drive yourself crazy unless you have proof.
She turned 30. I have wondered a lot about MLC too. Doesn't mean there isn't anyone else, but she is definitely into loosening up. We had always been pretty conservative (not politically) family-type people. Not too much partying, bar-hanging activities. Just go to school, get jobs, have a kid, go on vacations and baseball game type people. We've had friends, boats, activities etc...but we were never into hitting the scene.
Funny, the girl who never cared to impress anyone, wore oversize T-shirts and ripped up bluejeans spends an hour getting ready to run to 7-11 for milk. She's all "flashy" now. Could be to attract someone new. Could be the "true her" coming out as she claims. Either way, I'm not too much of a fan.
I'm going to have to agree with the rest. It sounds like your W is having an A or at the very least maybe an EA. Have you actually seen her going out with these friends of hers? If you start casually asking her what she did that night, does she tell you or does she get defensive?
I think you better start taking notes.
Just my 2 cents.
I have been talking to a lot of people. She doesn't know it but her friends and sister talk to me. A lot of times she takes out S7 with her when she goes to GF's house. I have even asked him if any of the other kid's dads were there.
nothing.
I still question the couple of texts and an old facebook post.
Tonight I came home to crying. She's just not happy. She is breaking down. She gave me a long hug. Weird how there was no feeling there right now.
I saw searchterms in the google toolbar. the results that it brought up were for condos a couple of miles down the road.
She's been hoome with S7 all day.
One of her friends told me she talked to W today. W sounded fine.
Another day in paradise.
I wish I could lose the fear.
I haven't seen her out, but have verified.
She generally ends up telling me where she went, but hates when I ask.
snooped. condo place has to do wiith her business.
I don't think she was looking. (not today at least)
Get this...Said a quick prayer and something changed in her. It was kind of weird. Probably temporary but the timing and 180 she took was pretty significant.
Get this...Said a quick prayer and something changed in her. It was kind of weird. Probably temporary but the timing and 180 she took was pretty significant.
I have had the same experience. I have never been what I would call religious. But, my R with God has grown like never before.
I still say - that as a woman, after being so serious at home - marriage, jobs, child - there is a time when I felt I had missed out - it doesn't have to coincide with "midlife" at all - just a reaction to being so duty prone. Needing to get out and feel free from family responsibilities. Especially as a mom. It's such a constantly one way giving job. I'm just trying to reassure you when you get overwhelmed with fear, as I often do. It does no good to imagine what isn't proven. Also, if it doesn't get a reaction out of you when she's dressing up to go out so much, it may lose it's appeal.
She just may need to feel like someone other than Wife or Mother or Worker. That's all I'm saying. But I know how much it hurts and tears you up inside. I've been there. Letting go and trusting is the best way I know how to survive.
also, how do you pray? What do you ask for? I've never been religious, but heck, whatever works!
H4L - it sounds like you and her have talked. Im learning how different men and women really are.
As far as the prayer, I haven't really even gone to church since I was a kid. I have been working a lot on faith lately though.
I,m no expert, but I generally thank God for all of the good things. Any small goals, son, the fact she's still here, the strength that has stopped me from giving up, this board and the DB & DR books etc.
I ask for forgiveness for my mistakes and ask for him to come into our lives, for our family, the families of the people on this board, to heal W's heart etc.
Again...no expert, but I am learning. It's bbeen good for me.
Weird weekend. Movement. What now?????
We were both home Saturday. Some time was spent with eachother, but she kept cycling from almost normal to really angry/depressed. She left to go to GF's house for a bit while I was with S7 and neighborhood kids.
When we came back, she was there sobbing on "my" (formerly our) bed. She told me she didn't want me to hurt her anymore. She's been so hurt and angry. She didn't realize how angry she has been. She sees that she has been walled off to me and defensive against me. She's sick of living like this and is ready to bring the wall down.
We hugged. We cried.
She said she couldn't promise what the future will look like, and she doesn't feel the closeness with me that she should. I told her that I don't feel that right now either, but that we shouldn't expect to feel that right now. We have been through a lot and it will take some effort to get there, but we can get there.
We took a break from the R talk after that. We both needed a breather.
I had plans that night. I kept them. She was up when I got home (12:30 ish.). We chatted about the evening, but no R talk. She went back to "her" room that night.
Sunday - she spent plenty of time to herself doing projects around the house, shopping etc. No R talk. No ring. Back to "her" room last night. She was pretty on edge, but she didn't get much sleep (getting back on schedule for the schoolyear.)
There's a little less anger in the air though.
I'm taking it slow. Not pursuing. I think this is significant progress, but I'm not going to smother her.
This IS significant and positive. You handled this perfectly.
What she needs now is space and consistent, leading ACTION from you. Let her be the one to initiate still.
Great job man. I'm pulling for you.
Thanks!
Any suggestions on the action. It seems to be a balancing act between not pursuing and taking action.
The point is to live your changes, with no backtracking. THAT's what will bring her back.
It's being strong without pursuing her. Giving her the space to re-attach by being patient and exhibiting strength. As up and down as she will continue to be, you have to be the steady rock in her crazy world.
Well so much for progress. She told me tonight that she got a lawyer today and shezs moving out.
I am sitting here in complete shock. She is in consoling our son. She's already packed her stuff.
I am numb.
EB -
I only scrolled back a page, so I don't know your entire sitch... but I feel for you tonight. Such hard news to take, even if you wondered about the condo searches on the computer. So heartbreaking to think of her consoling your S.
But, you need to take care of yourself and your S now. That's it. You can't control what your W does, and if there is an A ongoing, you don't have her attention and will be wasting your time and energy engaging her. Maybe you could get out of the house for awhile or do something with your S. Get away from your W for the moment and regroup.
So sorry for your heartache... but you WILL get through it. Practice some of that prayer you've been working on.
My BF emailed this verse to me today - maybe you can find some comfort in it too:
Word of the day: Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
EB - thinking of you tonight. Sending you lots of hugs and good thoughts. I'm so sorry. Hang in there. It's not over until the ink is dry on the page. My H has also moved out and told me a couple different times he spoke to a L. He still hasn't taken legal action, after 5 months.
Remember to watch words not actions. Sometimes physical space is what is needed - WAS sees the other side of separation, not just the fantasy. It's often not as great as they originally might think. Also, it gives them time to miss us. Thirdly, in some ways it's less painful because you don't have to watch them walk to their own bedroom every night.
I'm just saying - although you may be in panic mode, it's not over yet.
I agree - take some space yourself to be with yourself, your S, and to breathe. Surround yourself with friends, enjoy nature, whatever soothes you. You will survive this and so will S. Love yourself and your S the best you can. That's all you have control over.
We're here for you too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry - I meant "Watch actions, not words"
EB, I'm sorry. I don't know what else to say. I'm praying for you. Don't give up yet, but don't drive yourself crazy either. We are all here for you.
As others said, please just focus on your S and yourself. Your WAW is in a fog and there is nothing you can figure out on her right now.
EB,
Just wanted to chime in to say, I echo what everyone else has said. Focus on what you can control - you and your R with your S. Your W has her own journey to take right now, and you can't help her through that.
As hard as it is, let that part go and focus like he!! on you and your S. This isn't over by a long shot.
Well so much for progress. She told me tonight that she got a lawyer today and shezs moving out.
I am sitting here in complete shock. She is in consoling our son. She's already packed her stuff.
I am numb.
You just got sacked for a loss, on 3rd down, deep in your own end and got the wind knocked out of you. It's part of the game. Catch your breath, regroup with the coaches and get ready for the next series. It's still early in the first quarter.
FWIW, I didn't start DBing until right before my wife moved out and filed. My mentality was that it wasn't over until the judge signed off on the D until then I had a shot but I was very aware of the alternative. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach
My mentality was that it wasn't over until the judge signed off on the D...until then I had a shot, but I was very aware of the alternative.
That's an awesome way to be able to look at the situation.
Thank you all for the support.
I had to call into work today. I just couldn't pull it off. She is here. My 7 year old boy came to me a little bit ago and asked if I knew Mommy was on the computer looking to buy a new house.
I am still numb.
After all of this time I thought I would be better prepared.
She just left to look for places to live. She took out son with her!
Get busy. Coach is right. It is a setback that can be overcome.
Im having a hard time not beeing needy and begging. It's so hard to see why she has to go through with this when she admits that I have addressed her issues.
She just can't let go of past percieved injustices.
"It's so hard to see why she has to go through with this when she admits that I have addressed her issues."
She could have the feeling that they're superficial. It took years for the M to get to this point, it's going to take more than a couple months for it to get better. But at least you started.
"She just can't let go of past percieved injustices."
The thing is that they aren't "percieved" by her. They are very real even if you don't agree.
You've just got to give her space and detach and live your own life. Right now it seems like she's in the driver's seat. What have you been doing to take back control of the wheel? What have you been doing to live your life?
she is in the driver's seat. that's for sure.
I have been taking more time with my son, family, and friends. It's nearly paralizing to think of missing out on a huge majority of the rest of my son's childhood.
When I ask W what she wanted for our marriage her answers are exactly the things that I want now. I just want a chance. A chance to show her who I can be. Who I am now. She just can't get past the past.
We still haven't tried to put it all together. Her reasons change regularly. Generally a variation, but sometimes they change a lot.
I know I can only control me, but it's been a really rough day.
You are living your chance right now, despite what she says. "Don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do."
Now is not the time to throw in the towel. Now is the time to double up on your DB'ing.
yoou are right. perception is reality. I have apologized for so many things. mostly for stuff that I didn't even know I did wrong.
she doesn't wannt apologies anymore. she keeps telling me to let it go...like the conversation is about a bad call at a baseball game or something.
It's like she doesn't get the gravity of the situation.
i'm writing from my phone tonight. the keys stick.
B/c she has detached and you haven't. This is the way these WAS sitvh's are. They already had time to work thru what you are going thru. Get ahead of her. Focus on having fun with your S and detaching, while still becoming a better person. Keep making yourself that person "only a fool would leave.". Nobody said this was gonna be easy. But nothing worth having IS easy to get.
You can do this.
I want to sent her a text about loving her and wanting her so badly!
I want to sent her a text about loving her and wanting her so badly!
DO NOT DO IT! clingy, needy, and makes you look like you can't handle it. You are beeing watched with how you react right now. Take your phone apart, hide the battery and sim card in different places. Go take a walk in the park around other people, go workout, pray - but do not use you phone to contact her.
I will dope slap you if you do. Handle it.
Cheers
I'm writing from my phone too.
Ok, you know where telling her ILY will get you. Don't. Don't.
Its kind of like you just got ambushed and are taking heavy fire. You can either give up and die. Or, you can pick yourself up and fight. I may not win, but I'm not going down without a fight.
Get your emotions out, then pick yourself up and get back to the task at hand.
Agreed. NO NEEDY TEXTING!!
I did end up giving her the whole schpiel earlier. I told her I wanted a chance. Wanter the same things that she said she wanted. I told her that I thought we could have an amazing marriage and I want to be the husand she deserves.
I was very calm. She got very angry. She tried aiting me into anger. She talked down to me and even said she was too young too marry me (now realized 10 yrs later). That hurt.
I ddidnt get angry. Just told her that I want to fight for our family.
Agreed. NO NEEDY TEXTING!!
I was needy enough earlier.
I won't do it, but it's a hard urge to fight. I know it doesn't work, but it feels like "if she only knew how loved she is..."
It's not like that, I know, but the feeling is there. and strong.
The schpiel was earlier this afternoon. I couldn't help it.
The urge to fight for was too much.
It felt like I didn't have anything to lose since she just got back from looking at places.
The schpiel was earlier this afternoon. I couldn't help it.
The urge to fight for was too much.
It felt like I didn't have anything to lose since she just got back from looking at places.
Hey man. Looks like you have called it a night. Don't blame you.
Here is something I always like to read when I am having a rough time:
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream–and not make dreams your master,
If you can think–and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings–nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And–which is more–you’ll be a Man, my son!
–Rudyard Kipling
You know, she may actually miss you when she's gone. She may need distance to see what she might walk away from.
I'm sorry it hurts so bad. I've been there.
You can't control her if she wants to leave. And remember your 180's - if you have done a lot of trying to convince, explain, say ILY, etc. she expects you will do this. If you shut her out and only focus on you - if you let her go - she may have a shock on her hands. It's easier for WAS to walk away when one person is holding the R together. If you truly let he make her own decision, she has to hold the part of the R that was good, has hope, etc., too.
You will find that place inside you that is ok even if she goes. There is that inner calm place in you of acceptance somewhere. It will just take time to find it.
Peace.
Thank you all so much for being here. I am in an incredibly lonely place right now.
I am back to work today. She came and went yesterday. She actually stayed at our house again last night. I figured she would stay at a friend's house until her new place was ready. Honestly I thought she was moving her stuff out yesterday, that she already had a place lined up. It sounds like she was just looking at places yesterday though. She is looking to buy! Not even rent. She didn't rell me this, I just saw one of the printouts. I don't know how this will work since we are still legally married. Can this affect me?
I don't know how to "let go." I don't want to give her the satisfaction of telling her that it's OK to go. It's not. It's a horrible thing to put our son through, to do to our families, to do to our marriage vows, and to do to the future that we could have together.
How can I "let go" without absolving her? I don't want to tell her that this is OK.
It's so surreal that I write this. I am still quite numb. I haven't cried.
You know, she may actually miss you when she's gone. She may need distance to see what she might walk away from.
I have thought this too. Since the beginning I have noticed that there seems to be a patter for those who have reconsiled. It seems that everyone had a chance to get away. I was hoping that living completely seperate lives under the same roof may have the same effect.
Apparently not.
There is a chance that this time apart could be good. You're right. I will survive either way, but being a child of D this has literally always been my biggest fear. I would literally rather have died than have to go through this. (no, I'm not planning to do something stupid here, but I am painting a picture)
I can only look for the path that God has laid out for me and do my best with the opportunities that he has given me.
EB, I have been afraid to respond to your post because I believe I may be 2 to 3 weeks behind you. We have been living together, still in the same bed. I have been going to the gym, started volunteering for scouts, avoided being in the same room as her, not initiated conversations, etc. all in order for the same thing as you said, separate lives under the same roof. Well, it hasn't worked. W went from not wanting to break up the family to removing me and my family from her facebook friends list and not wearing her rings at home. We will attend Retrouvaille in a week and a half, but if something doesn't come out of it, I'm afraid of what the next step will be. Our sitch's have been close for some time, and I fear it may continue to be in the near future.
I am praying hard for you and me and everyone here.
Oh, and I have seen my spiritual director and we have talked about God's path for me. I am not ready to accept it may lead me away from W, so in effect right now I am fighting God. I am not putting my trust in Him that He will do what is best for me. Good for you if you can really accept that. Pray for me that I will also one day soon.
Wow EB. It seems we have a very similiar sitch. My W plans on moving out next week and has a place already. I haven't read your whole thread, but will try when I get a chance. I am emotionally in the same place as you; we can only hope. Good luck. I will check in from time to time.
Orich - I was reading your most recent post as you were posting to my board. Your sitch and mine have been on such similar paths.
I honestly have been talking about how every reconsiliation that I am aware of has had to undergo a seperation. Most for at least 6 mos or so.
I read so much about clingyness and neediness and I have to be careful here too. I never knew it was such an issue for women. I thought they were always looking for someone more sensitive and emotionally available. I've always tried to share my thoughts, dreams and fears with W much as it sounds like you have. I thought love is unconditional. W is supposed to love me forever. I shouldn't have to act like "Billy Badass" and try to impress her like I am wooing a 19 year old kid. I'm married to an adult woman who would appreciate me for providing, sacrificing, helping around the house, being a good father, keeping fit, and communicating thoughts and feelings with her.
I have learned though that just as I would appreciate her spicing things up with a little sweet talk, a fun night out (or in :)), etc. I should have been making more of an effort to be that fun and crazy guy (i.e. try to impress her) at least once in a while.
I guess unconditional love even has it's conditions.
This is an incredibly lonely place right now, but at least there is some movement. Just not the direction I had hoped for.
EB,
I don't want to give her the satisfaction of telling her that it's OK to go. It's not.
How can I "let go" without absolving her? I don't want to tell her that this is OK
"W, I do not agree with your decision, but I know I can't stop you from leaving. What you decide to do is up to you. This isn't what I want, but I accept your decision."
Accepting doesn't mean you agree or approve. She needs to know you will be fine with whatever she chooses. I know you don't feel that way, but you can fake it until you have gotten there. Any attempt to reach out to her, to beg, plead, show her you are devastated (I know you are hurtnig inside - he!!, we have all felt that) will only drive her further away quicker.
She has got to take her journey alone. You cannot do it for her, and you cannot stop her from it. You CAN continue to be strong, change yourself and work on detaching. Maybe she comes out of the fog, maybe not. Maybe if she comes out of the fog, it will be too late - and if it is, that means you will be in a R in which you will be happier than you ever imagined.
One of the things I have felt lately is I may not want my W back. I still want to fight for my M, but a NEW M where she and I change to make it better than it has ever been. Coach has told me to get ahead of my W on the detaching/changing front. I have passed her on the changing front, and I think I am in the passing lane with my blinker on in the detaching department.
I am praying for you. Pray for yourself - ask for strength, courage, discernment and above all else, patience. This won't be easy (what part of any of this HAS been?), but you can do it. AND, you will be a much stronger, wiser and better person, father, and who knows, maybe even a husband.
Wow EB. It seems we have a very similiar sitch. My W plans on moving out next week and has a place already. I haven't read your whole thread, but will try when I get a chance. I am emotionally in the same place as you; we can only hope. Good luck. I will check in from time to time.
I have read some of yours.
Sorry that we meet in a place such as this. I am really thankful that this place is here though.
I went and opened a new checking account yesterday. Most of our bills are set up to be automatically deducted from the old one, so I have a lot of work to do there. W always handled the finances.
I just can't say it enough. This is so surreal. Numb. How are you handling it?
Thanks GIMA.
I guess that's the only thing that I can do at this point. Good suggestions on how to word it too.
I have noticed that we seem to communicate best when it's written (best for her, I like to talk). I should send something like this to her, but I will wait until tomorrow. It's just too much today.
It's so counter to what I have always thought to do. I always thought that a woman would want to be fought for, told "I'll never give up on you." Guess not.
I am sure that there are a ton of women out there who would love to have a guy like me. I have a lot to offer. It just seems so wrong to even go with that thought though. I got married to be with only one woman for the rest of my life.
Still surreal. Still numb. Still waiting to wake up and have my W tell me this is all a bad dream.
It's so counter to what I have always thought to do. I always thought that a woman would want to be fought for, told "I'll never give up on you." Guess not.
There is some truth in your statement. But, I have come to realize they want someone they RESPECT to fight for them. A woman will not love a man she does not respect. I'm proof of that. What are the things that caused her to lose respect for you? Not all your fault, but if you can change those, you can start earning back her respect.
I am sure that there are a ton of women out there who would love to have a guy like me. I have a lot to offer. It just seems so wrong to even go with that thought though. I got married to be with only one woman for the rest of my life.
SO DID I. But, the woman I am roomates with right now is NOT the woman I M'd. Same goes for you. I don't think there is anything wrong with envisioning what might be in the way of another woman in your life in the future. For me, I chose not to act on that thought while I'm M'd. But, nothing wrong with considering the possibility.
And, ask yourself, what if in 6-12 months from now, I AM in a R with a beautiful, fantastic, warm, caring woman? How will I feel then when I look back on how I am feeling right NOW?
Still surreal. Still numb. Still waiting to wake up and have my W tell me this is all a bad dream.
I understand this, b/c I have been there. So have MANY people here. It is surreal. It does feel like you are living a nightmare. This, too, shall pass.
Get your grief out, then get back to working on you and detaching. You will find strength you never knew existed. You will be a better person. You will like yourself more than you ever have before.
I read so much about clingyness and neediness and I have to be careful here too. I never knew it was such an issue for women. I thought they were always looking for someone more sensitive and emotionally available. I've always tried to share my thoughts, dreams and fears with W much as it sounds like you have. I thought love is unconditional. W is supposed to love me forever. I shouldn't have to act like "Billy Badass" and try to impress her like I am wooing a 19 year old kid. I'm married to an adult woman who would appreciate me for providing, sacrificing, helping around the house, being a good father, keeping fit, and communicating thoughts and feelings with her.
Clingy and needy does not equal sensitive and emotionally available. The connection is gone. To remedy this you are the one who signed up to do the work. You wife is not here asking for advice. We can only respond to you.
You are being watched right now. If you crumble under the stress it will validate her opinion of you currently. You control your thoughts, emotions, feelings and actions. You can waste all the energy you have wondering what she is thinking, why she acting this way and what her next move is, or you can thrive for yourself and show her what she is missing. The choice is yours. You can handle it.
Cheers
I just can't say it enough. This is so surreal. Numb. How are you handling it?
I am in the same place. Numbness is wearing off, but she hasn't moved out yet. I am guessing it will come back then.
I am handling it by doing what my IC and many of the people on this board tell me to do. I especially look at the advice from Robx, Coach, Puppy, and Gucci - they seem to be very respected on these boards and their advice is often collaborated with my IC. It isn't easy, it does not feel right, but at least I feel like I am doing something. And I am also not taking the perspective that I must save my marriage anymore. I just want to feel better. If it saves the marriage - great. If not, at least I will feel good about where I am.
I only listen to christian radio anymore. Not so much for the Jesus stuff, but the hope and faith music is much better to be listening to than the love songs on the other stations given where we are at in life.
And I am also not taking the perspective that I must save my marriage anymore. I just want to feel better. If it saves the marriage - great. If not, at least I will feel good about where I am.
BINGO!
I only listen to christian radio anymore. Not so much for the Jesus stuff, but the hope and faith music is much better to be listening to than the love songs on the other stations given where we are at in life.
Since everything hit the fan, I have started up reading my Bible again and delve into a daily devotional each morning. This has helped me tremendously.
I only listen to christian radio anymore. Not so much for the Jesus stuff, but the hope and faith music is much better to be listening to than the love songs on the other stations given where we are at in life.
That's funny. I have been doing exactly the same thing.
I have to admit that I didn't even know there were Christian stations around here until this. It's nice to hear messages about faith and hope. It makes me feel a little lonely. You're dead on about the damn love songs. They're a bit too much for me right now.
My W turned me on to country music, which I love! But now, can you imagine? It is something we did together, go to country shows, watch country videos on TV, listen in our car, and on top of that, it's almost all about losing love, cheating spouses and broken hearts! I can't listen to it anymore!
I listen to a lot of talk radio and podcasts. There are great inspirational podcasts, as well as some really good comedy ones.
Clingy and needy does not equal sensitive and emotionally available. The connection is gone. To remedy this you are the one who signed up to do the work. You wife is not here asking for advice. We can only respond to you.
You are being watched right now. If you crumble under the stress it will validate her opinion of you currently. You control your thoughts, emotions, feelings and actions. You can waste all the energy you have wondering what she is thinking, why she acting this way and what her next move is, or you can thrive for yourself and show her what she is missing. The choice is yours. You can handle it.
Cheers
As always Coach, you're right.
She has seen a lot of these changes. She has even commented on them. Her reasons keep changing though. She said that if she stayed and tried to work on things we'd just be back here in a couple of years anyway. That seems to be her biggest fear.
She may say that she "can't be her real self around me...doesn't like who she is when she is with me...has been living a lie...just doesn't like my personality...thinks that I am a selfish person...wants to be young and carefree while she still can..." whatever, but it still seems that the biggest thing is that she doesn't think that changes will last. (I think she wants me to be more of a 19 year old party guy, but that just isn't me...more chilled out, sure, but I'm just not the close out the bar every Saturday kind of person)
The only thing I can do is to continue to live the changes.
Country music would be the worst right now. You got that right.
My W listens to it. Funny, she is so shut off over the past 7 weeks that romance somgs don't even bother her. She has convinced herself so much that she is doing the right thing that it doesn't even seem to bother her what she is doing. She seems to look forward to it.
It seemed to get to her Monday night when S7 was crying uncontrollably, but she found a way to blame it on me! She cried from seeing him sad, but it seemed to only strengthen her resolve. It gave a kind of "See I can't live like this anymore" kind of vibe.
Huh? The reason that this is happening is because you are breaking up our family! Live like this? I don't want to either. I just want to figure out what it takes to make things great!
I think I've reached a point that it's easier to let it go though. We aren't going as up and down as we used to. She is just so cold. Shut off.
My W is very cold and shut off now, too. She continues listening to all the country music, including the "I'll love you forever" ones. So far our boys don't know what is going on. They are only 6 and 4. I wonder what her reaction to their reaction would be if we did physically split. My 4 year old is very clingy right now, especially to me. When I am home alone with them, he will follow me into any room I go, even if he was sitting watching TV. He will get up and follow me if he sees me leaving the room.
When we are all together, he gravitates more to me than her. It might have something to do with her promising to play with them, and then telling them that she can't, she got busy. She isn't a bad mother, but I think there are times when she can't really handle them. I've seen her go from laughing an playing with them to yelling and leaving the room in an instant over something relatively trivial.
My 4 year old is very clingy right now, especially to me.
Funny. My D3 is exactly the same way.
My W had a big revelation Saturday. I thought it was progress and we'd start working on making things better. As part of that, she mentioned how unhappy she'd been and how she's noticed that she hasn't been a good mother lately.
This is probably part of what pushed the ball of the cliff recently. She was able to tell herself that since she is unhappy here, she needs to get away. She'll be happier and it will be better for our son.
I am sure that she will be happier for an exciting short while. I can only hope that after that she will see that she left a man that "only a fool would leave."
I think that the WAS's are just so damn unhappy in general. My W has found a way to focus all of her unhappiness on me. See freaking LOVES everyone else! She will have to face her unhappiness herself once she is out on her own. She won't have me to blame it on anymore.
My 4 year old is very clingy right now, especially to me.
Funny. My D3 is exactly the same way.
S7 is the same. I watch more Disney Channel than I care to admit. He has slept in my room every night for over a month.
See freaking LOVES everyone else!
My W seems to be going overboard with friendliness to people she hardly gave much attention to before! She is laughing on the phone, talking to neighbors during evening walks, etc. Only seems depressed when I am around.
Oh, and I have seen my spiritual director and we have talked about God's path for me. I am not ready to accept it may lead me away from W, so in effect right now I am fighting God. I am not putting my trust in Him that He will do what is best for me. Good for you if you can really accept that. Pray for me that I will also one day soon.
For what it's worth, let me chime in here re: the spiritual aspect of all of this. I also see a spiritual director--couldn't get thru this without her.
Not for a second have I ever believed that any of this is God's path for our lives. Not for a second have I ever believed that God wants our marriages to end. I believe that our spouses have made really lousy choices, poor decisions, very selfish ones. And they have the free will to do so. I believe that God is just as distressed over our pain and our children's pain as we are, and as alone as we feel, I continue to believe that God is weeping with us, holding us up when we can stand no more. I believe that, however twisting the path, God will bring something good out of it--not that He caused the situation to occur, but that he can redeem even the worst of circumstances and heal our grief. Because our spouses have free will, God does not intervene in their decisions because they don't allow Him to--but he will give us strength, courage, and peace to get through what we have to endure. God's will is never that we suffer, that our children suffer, that covenants are broken. Redemption and healing
are His will, and we can pray that our spouses' hearts are changed--but unless they are open to that, it remains their choice: sin and grief, or love and reconciliation.
hoosier, that reminded me of this:
I said, "God, I hurt." And God said, "I know." I said, "God, I cry a lot." And God said, "That is why I gave you tears." I said, "God, I am so depressed." And God said, "That is why I gave you Sunshine." I said, "God, life is so hard." And God said, "That is why I gave you loved ones." I said, "God, my loved one died." And God said, "So did mine." I said, "God, it is such a loss." And God said, "I saw mine nailed to a cross." I said, "God, but your loved one lives." And God said, "So does yours." I said, "God, where are they now?" And God said, "Mine is on My right. Yours is in the Light." I said, "God, it hurts." And God said, "I know."
I like very much what you wrote, about our paths with God.
Thank you.
ps--I have been listening to contemporary Christian almost exclusively since the bomb. but I gotta say, my favorite country song is "She Thinks my Tractor's Sexy."
Kenny Chesney. Good stuff!
hoosier, that reminded me of this:
I said, "God, I hurt." And God said, "I know." I said, "God, I cry a lot." And God said, "That is why I gave you tears." I said, "God, I am so depressed." And God said, "That is why I gave you Sunshine." I said, "God, life is so hard." And God said, "That is why I gave you loved ones." I said, "God, my loved one died." And God said, "So did mine." I said, "God, it is such a loss." And God said, "I saw mine nailed to a cross." I said, "God, but your loved one lives." And God said, "So does yours." I said, "God, where are they now?" And God said, "Mine is on My right. Yours is in the Light." I said, "God, it hurts." And God said, "I know."
I like very much what you wrote, about our paths with God.
Thank you.
I like this, too.
The discussions betweens God's plan and free will are very confusing.
I think of the conversion of St. Paul. I am no Biblical scholar, but if I recall correctly, Saul was on the way to harm Christians and God spoke to him. Changed his heart. His heart was not open. God opened it.
I have prayed for this miracle. It hasn't happened. Some other things that I have prayed for have happened though. Clear intervention. Amazing stuff.
I pray daily for our marriage to be fully restored. It has not happened yet. But I also pray for the strength to go through this, and I am not a jiggling blob of jelly.
Saul was indeed on his way to persecute more Christians. That is what he did. But God did intervene, and as St. Paul, he became one of the greatest apostles.
I struggle a lot with God's will and free will as well. I will continue to struggle with it, I'm sure. I need to really trust in Him, and let him take this burden from me. But until I accept that it might not go the way I want it to go, I will continue to resist Him.
The discussions betweens God's plan and free will are very confusing.
I think of the conversion of St. Paul. I am no Biblical scholar, but if I recall correctly, Saul was on the way to harm Christians and God spoke to him. Changed his heart. His heart was not open. God opened it.
I have prayed for this miracle. It hasn't happened. Some other things that I have prayed for have happened though. Clear intervention. Amazing stuff.
Yeah, that's where it gets confusing and sometimes discouraging. Miracles happen out there to other people, but what about us? Where's our miracle? I don't have an answer, really, except that there are things we don't understand. Yep, God knocked Saul right on his a** (or was that off his a** of the donkey type?) and wouldn't we like to see the same happen to our wayward spouses?! I just keep hanging on this: Jeremiah 29:11 "'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for good and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.'" Someday we will understand more.
AGreed with above. It's not giving her a green light. It's more a feeling inside yourself that you know you can't change her or stop her.
You can still fight for your marriage, but only by changing yourself. It's an inner perspective, not what one says or doesn't say.
She just sent me an E-mail. She said she hopes my day is going OK and that she needs a copy of my check stub for paying quarterly taxes (she has a small business).
I typed a response that I hoped her day was OK too and that I would support whatever she felt she had to do. I deleted the second part and just left it at I hoped her day was OK too.
I need to tell her that I accept her decision, but I want to wait until tomorrow. Even that seems like it would come off as nedy today. Like I was saying that just to get her to change her mind.
I am wondering if I should give her what she wants by telling her that I got a new bank account yesterday, telling her that I am taking her name off of the household stuff, asking her how she's planning on working the car, upside-down equity on the house, etc situations.
Kind of a sh*t or get off the pot thing.
Does that make it more real or just make me a jerk?
Thoughts on above anyone?
I am wondering if I should give her what she wants by telling her that I got a new bank account yesterday, telling her that I am taking her name off of the household stuff, asking her how she's planning on working the car, upside-down equity on the house, etc situations.
You TCB for you.
"Wife I opened a bank account for me and transferred half of our cash into it. I am getting your name of all the household assets. I need you to get your car in your name and you need to handle your insurance. Here's the deal with the house we owe this much on the mortgage and we will net this much when we sell it, we both get (lose) this out of the sale. ...... Medical Insurance, School tuition/bills, sports/music for the kids, taxes, Christmas decorations, photographs, artwork, music collections, the pets, That pretty much covers that side of it.
yes make it real, make her ffffffeeeeeellllll all of it. Make sure you understands it is her choice and you are open to a reconciliation.
EB,
Just checking in on you. How are you?
Great advice, as always, from Coach by the way.
Love Coach's advice. I think I'm going to use it too - when I get those darn Separation papers! Do it!
I had the talk discussed above with her tonight. I took some of your thoughts gima. Kind of a "you know how I feel...I want to work on our family...I think things could be great..but I accept that you don't feel the same way and it's time for you to go..." type conversation.
"We need to talk about health ins, car ins, filing for D or sep..." Very hard conversation. I think it took some of the fun out of it for her.
I told her that I had hoped she would see the changes and it would e enough. Basically she has had such a hard time believing the changes because they seem like things I have been doing just to change her mind. More "you're just trying to control me" stuff.
I innsured her this wasn't the case and her line of thinking kind of made impossible to ever do anything and have it seen in a positive light. (everything I do is seen through colored lenses) ut it didn't really matter now since she had to go.
She seemed to leave the door open for the future in an odd way. She doesn't want to file for D yet. Just be separated.
More details tomorrow when not on phone.
Hard conversation but necessary. Thankfully there is still a lot of numness to get me through.
Back to a real keyboard...
As I was laying stuff out last night, I realized that she wasn't as prepared for all of this as she seems to think that she is.
She doesn't want to file. She just wants to move out. She has no plans for health insurance. She doesn't want to go through dividing up our stuff. She doesn't have a place yet (I thought she did), doesn't have a realtor, doesn't have much $$ for a downpayment. I asked why she is looking to buy instead of rent and she sais the payments are a lot cheaper (she may be right). Then she followed that if we work things out between us, we can figure out what to do with the second place then. ----work things out?????? She said something to this affect before. Previously I said that if we're going to start trying to work this out, let's start trying...before we go through all of this. This time I did my 180 and just went with it.
For some reason she feels she needs this. She has such issues with control all she sees is "the bad man is out to get me." I have wondered how someone can watch their husband who loves them so much try so hard to be a good many for them then respond by being hurtful and angry. It's making a little more sense now though. She's so "fogged" up right now that every time she sees the changes, she sees them as my way of getting her to do what I want her to do.
We spent the rest of the night apart after the conversation, but I really do think that it took some of the kick out of it for her. It seems like the reason that she has been so adamant about moving out is that she wanted to show me that I can't "control" her. This is rediculous.
As far as I know, she is still planning on going, but she is leaving the door open for reconsiling. WTF?
Anyone have any experience with getting through to someone with major control issues? (W's mom is a control monger...I blame her)
Oh yeah, she told me she still loves me...
and...here's the kicker...
Since her name isn't on our mortgage, she qualifies as a first time home buyer and can get an FHA loan for her new place. What a kick to the balls. Since I bought her her first home, it makes it easier for her to leave me! The icing on the cake is that I initially built the business that she now runs and will fund her new life with. Score two for me!
This is just the gift that keeps on giving!!!!!
Don't get to bogged down here, it sounds like there is a real possibility that some space will be good. Maybe for both of you. You need to just focus on your feelings and not try and analyze her actions and get all worked up about them.
First, I agree with JKL that there is hope here. She's conflicted, and that's good.
Second,
She's so "fogged" up right now that every time she sees the changes, she sees them as my way of getting her to do what I want her to do.
Have you told her about your changes or have you let her just see them. If you told her, "hey look at me, look at what I am doing to get you to stay..." then she DID see it as controlling her. I'm not saying you did. But, remember, it's her PERCEPTION that is her reality irght now, not true reality.
If you told her of your changes, don't go there again. Let her see them by what you DO, not SAY.
At this point, you are taking the right action. Back off now that you have set out the reality of what SHE will have to deal with. And let her deal with it. DO NOT try to fix it for her or save her from this. That will backfire.
Stay the course. The conversation you had yesterday took a lot of guts. You should be proud of yourself. Get back to work on detaching. The more she sees you pulling back in a healthy way, the more it is going to force her to deal with the reality of the consequences of her decision - HER decision.
Anyone have any experience with getting through to someone with major control issues?
People who want to control are usually very insecure about something and it is a way for them feel better. What is your wife afraid of?
Have you told her about your changes or have you let her just see them.
I had not told her of changes. I just let her see them. She even mentioned the changes on more than one occasion.
As part of the conversation last night though, I did end up telling her that I have changed a lot and specifically made a point not to tell her. I just wanted her to see them. I said that I am sure that she sees them as empty promises and not lasting. She agreed. She said it is hard to see anything that I do right now as anything other than a tool for me to get my way. I told her that I was hoping that she would stay long enough to see that this is the new reality. I followed that by telling her that I see it's not going to happen now and that I accept that she is going to have to go.
It seems that the main reason that she wants to go is because she knew I wanted her to stay.
It seems that the main reason that she wants to go is because she knew I wanted her to stay.
So, you have told her you can't stop her (not trying to control), and she knows where you are coming from. Step back, and act consistent with this message.
Coach's question is a great one (as always). What is she afraid of?
Also, her telling you she thinks you are controlling her or trying to is itself a form of control she is asserting/trying to over you.
Anyone have any experience with getting through to someone with major control issues?
People who want to control are usually very insecure about something and it is a way for them feel better. What is your wife afraid of?
W's mom is a real control monger. That's the start of it.
I am a pretty straight forward kind of guy who has always called it like I see it. I have not problems asking for what I want. W has gone along with my wants for a long time. (I didn't know she was going along...I thought that she just agreed). Therefore, she has felt controlled by me too.
Now she talks about losing freedom, identity, etc. Essentially she is afraid of losing control. She has been in control since this has started. She knows it. Now she has become the controlling one. (she doesn't see this yet though)
It's hard for a guy like me to get all of this. If you want to be your "true self" just do it. If you want to be heard...speak up. That's always been how I thought. I can see now that it's not as easy for someone like her as it is for me though.
Either way, I need a break now. I knew I'd get to this point eventually. Still numb though. I am sure I will crash sooner or later.
I am so tired.
It's odd. I cycle between being angry at her and feeling sorry for her.
It's odd. I cycle between being angry at her and feeling sorry for her.
Yep. I understand.
I know my WAW is afraid of trusting and being hurt/disappointed again. Everything she is doing right now is to protect against that happening. Only thing I can do is show consistent action that I "get it" and have "changed" and then, only then, will she every maybe allow herself to be open to the possibility we can make things work. Probably never going to happen, but me doing what I am doing will help me with or without her.
I know my WAW is afraid of trusting and being hurt/disappointed again.
I think this is part of the WAS issue. It seems present in EVERY sitch.
Essentially she is afraid of losing control.
You are not listening to her. You make her feel insecure and are feeding her feelings of insecurity. Sounds a little like you are losing control and it's making you feel insecure. See the dynamic there?
I have not problems asking for what I want. W has gone along with my wants for a long time. (I didn't know she was going along...I thought that she just agreed). Therefore, she has felt controlled by me too.
Now she has become the controlling one.
So who really was the controlling one?
Has she ever told you she feels invisible, smothered, or a lost soul?
You can handle this. You just need to have some compassion for her.
Cheers
Essentially she is afraid of losing control.
You are not listening to her. You make her feel insecure and are feeding her feelings of insecurity. Sounds a little like you are losing control and it's making you feel insecure. See the dynamic there?
I have not problems asking for what I want. W has gone along with my wants for a long time. (I didn't know she was going along...I thought that she just agreed). Therefore, she has felt controlled by me too.
Now she has become the controlling one.
So who really was the controlling one?
Has she ever told you she feels invisible, smothered, or a lost soul?
You can handle this. You just need to have some compassion for her.
Cheers
Yes. I have been the controlling one. I just didn't know it.
Yes, she has said that she has felt smothered and invisible. Yes, I am losing control. I'd like to think that it's more of a giving up control rather than losing it, but you pretty much got it.
I am listening to her, but my attempts to stop making her feel more insecure backfire on me. Giving up is the only thing that seems to make a difference.
Any suggestions? I'm open.
Your wife doesn't want you to fix her. She wants your support, attention, love and interest. You don't give up, that makes her feel insecure, you give her space to be on her own two feet. Stop chasing her.
You can't stop her from leaving. You shouldn't enable her or be a doormat. You focus on yourself. A lot of times we call it script but our spouses usually have pretty good insight into us. Something about your behavior is causing her to walk. Improve and grow. You will attract your wife back by your actions. Confidence is a killer chick magnet. It means you can take care of business. You want your wife you don't need her. Control is needy, insecure and a fraud. Confidence is the tool to handle any situation regardless of the circumstances. That's what loving detachment is - I want you and you might choose to leave, I will thrive either way. Her actions won't dictate your success because that is your responsibility. When I coach I'll take a player with heart anyday they thrive under adversity. Make your mind up that this is just a challenge that you must show your true character in. You are the man in the arena.
Cheers
Oh numbness wearing off.
I am sitting in a big empty house while my wife is out shopping for a new place. This is SO freaking wrong.
Is your S at home? If not, go work out, run, take a long walk.
If not, do something to occupy yourself. Clean the house, read a book, anything.
Is your S at home? If not, go work out, run, take a long walk.
If not, do something to occupy yourself. Clean the house, read a book, anything.
Good advice. Physical activity does one especially well because you get a fresh batch of endorphins flooding in, and it makes you feel good!
thanks guys.
I took a couple of walks, but I need to start forcing the gym again. I just have no energy anymore.
Drained. Tired all of the time.
It's been long enough. I need to get my diet and exercise back on track.
I find that LOUD music and a very heavy workout work wonders.
And sometimes, the scenery at the gym aint bad either.
good call.
Exercise and cleaning the house - that's what's getting me through these days. Highly recommended. Stay busy. Don't sit still.
Made it through the night.
Numbness is back.
She left almost as soon as I got home last night. She said she was going "shopping." (for 4 hours) I still catch myself wondering and trying to understand. "Did she leave because of the uncomfortable situation at our house? Is she having a hard time facing me knowing that I have 'given in?' Can she still be angry with me? About what? I have given her what she wanted. Does she feel bad? DOES SHE FEEL ANYTHING?"
I try to leave it alone, but it is hard. I have accepted that she is going though. I am almost looking forward to it in a weird way. I just want to be able to go home to some peace for a change.
Damn numbness comes and goes quickly.
I'm sitting at work. My chest is getting tight. I'm short of breath. I just want to curl up and go to sleep.
I've had this nightmare where my W wants to leave before. Thank God she has woken me up, wrapped her arms around me and told me it was just a dream. She loves me. She's never going anywhere.
When is she going to wake me up?!?!?!?! Why can't this just be a bad dream?!?!?!?!!?
Please God, let this just be a BAD dream!
Hang in there, is there someone at work who you can talk to just to distract you? Can you get up and do something to occupy your mind?
I've had panic attacks before, you might be close to one, find some way to focus on something else, anything else.
I am sitting in a big empty house while my wife is out shopping for a new place. This is SO freaking wrong.
Get to your place of strength and power. For me its headphones with favorite music LOUD and out on the streets running. I can be anxiety ridden and shaking one minute and feel like I am on top of the world flying the next. That's the ME that W fell in love with. That's the ME that people gravitate toward.
Just went for a long walk.
I keep wondering how W will keep focusing o the bad times and if she will ever remember/miss/want the times of closeness, fun, loving, caring, etc.
Sad part is right now, she sees all of these memories through a filter. She doesn't see them the same as she used to. I'm probably seeing them through a filter too. I may even see them as better than they really were.
It doesn't help that I had dreams last night...then woke up to reality.
I've gotten a little better. Those moments where I have been in my place of "strength and power" have come. They've been short lived, but they have come. I'm not showing this side to her anymore either. That's another step in the right direction.
I wonder the same thing. How can she just forget about the good times? How can she forget how she used to tell me she could never imagine life without me? You said it right. They are looking through tainted filters. We hope that one day they lose the filter and can see clearly again.
I do know how you feel. I have had days of complete despair, and have wanted to just sleep for like a week.
Hang in there, I'm right there with you.
Copied from Orich's thread:
Standing up to my W is kind of what got me here. So in my case, more of that would be more of the same. More of that hasn't worked.
What you call standing up to your wife does not mean taking a stand for your wife or loving her the way she needs.
How would your wife characterise your behavior that you call "standing up to my wife" ? One of the beautiful things about detaching is you can see the interactions like a third party. Helps you see things from a new perspective, awareness and helps develop compassion for your beloved's POV. Detaching allows you to start thinking.
I totally agree with having discernment for you particular sitch. I am challenging you to have a open mind. Let go of dysfunctional beliefs and do the work.
Cheers
This is where we can agree Coach. This is why I told her that I have accepted her moving out. I have not brought it up since then.
She knows this has been the biggest fear that I have ever had. She knows that I want to keep our family together. I told her Wednesday though that if this is truly what she feels she needs (to move out) I will accept it.
I think this got to her, probably only for a minute, but it was done completely out of compassion for her POV. Something that I would have never done before.
Trying to understand her has helped some, because I realized that until I did something like this, everything else would sound like empty promises and effort to manipulate her to her.
Do you understand that your fear caused you to manipulate her? She is responding that that behavior, you smothering her, manipulating, controlling - the fear shows thru. A woman doesn't want to see her man afraid. That's why women consistently are attracted to confident men.
Two pronged approach - work on your fear (I call it "snakes on a brain.") IMO the opposite of fear is love. You can't give away something you don't have, so you must learn to love yourself first.
- lovingly detach: handle the seperation (yes you will cycle), improve yourself- physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Get your mojo/groove/swagger back.
Learn from the WAWs here. Learn about LLs, intimacy, communication, detaching, how to make yourself happy and what will make you irresistable to your wife.
The choice is all yours in how you handle it.
Cheers
Coach = what's your story? How do you have such awesome answers?
EB-
I don't know how to do "quotes" but let me say you are not alone. I'm here in California (also don't know how to make a "signature") feeling quite similar. The whole "how can they only see the negative" thoughts. And like you said, "How can I only see the good?" You did the right thing by trying to act out of compassion instead of fear. Those two motivations struggle within me daily too. I know when I act out of compassion, it has good results, when I act out of fear, bad. That's all I know at this point.
So you are doing an amaZingly difficult task - letting go, and accepting. It's reaaaaaaalllllllyyyyyyyyyy hard so give yourself credit.
I'm over here struggling to do the same - you've got support.
.. and I'm struggling down here in Oz ... I am going through the same as you EB and Hope4Luv.
I've done some tough stuff in my life but this is the absolute pits of despair.
We all have to hang in there ... keep venting, keep posting ... keep on believing.
confused. numb.
dare I say...detached?
izve been on your thread so I see what is happening with you. you'll get through it. it SUCKS, but we both will.
my W is still here. some of her things are in boxes. she's been looking at new places to live every day, but she's still here. she is talking about things that need to be done around our house and washing her car in our driveway. she's acting almost normal to me.
she even told on of our neighors that she is moving out. the neighbor said it sounded like W was giving more of a 'i need time away' vibe than "i'm leaving and not ccoming back" message.
who knows?
she wants to run her business from here while she sleeps elsewhere. oddly enough, I am ok with that.
I am tired and cycling up and down a lot too. like a dumba** I broke out old photos (W was not here) last night. bad move on my part.
EB
I've been reading your thread and hope you're doing better today. Did you get out to do some exercise? I know that it is hard to do things without your S but are you getting out to go to the cinema, dinner with friends or just following up on stiff you like.
Yes, it is a sucky situation. But I always say "This is where I am today but it is not where I will be tomorrow". And Things are hard but they will get better.
I clicked "Submit" in error.
But I like what Coach told you about getting your swagger back. That is a great way to put it. Your swagger or whatever attracted her to you is key. And when you see that you are becoming an improved version of yourself ...well, it is priceless. You will know that you have graduated Hard Knocks U with a distinction.
what a strange day. I have spent a lot of it walking.
W is still here. I feel more detached than ever. In addition to the stuff from earlier (talking abt stuff that needs to be done to our house, acting like all is normal, etc) she sat at our backyard firepit with me for a couple of hours tonight. I didn't even ask her to. she drove the conversation, asked how work was, etc. I went along with it, but didn't hang on to it. Just found it strange.
She even had me scratch her back twice tonight and kept giving me loving looks!
Before the firepit I went out to the loccal outdoor mall for a while. It helps me feel that "swagger" to go out and see that there area lot of beautiful women out there. I'd choose W if I have the choice, but it's nice to get checked out be a couple of local hotties every once in a while too.
EB,
I know you are still numb, but you sound a little better. Just keep working on you. Fix you, and everything else is just icing on the cake.
Thanks gima. I hope things are well in your world today.
I have my ups and downs. I feel a little stronger at the moment. There were cycles today, but strength at some welcome points.
Hang in there. You will make it through this.
I'm having a weird day. Nothing W has done. Just feeling some self pity and frustration at things not moving forward. I hate even complaining when, compared to others, I shouldn't. But, that's where I am. Should be fine by the morning.
You are entitled to have points where you're having a harder time. You're not supposed to like this stuff.
You're in good company.
I'll be the strong one today. You can take a day to have an issue for a change.
Ha.
I'm ok. Just feeling a bit reflective tonight. That, and a little impatient.
But I realize you're right - I'm not perfect. And I need an "off" day every so often. Not that I plane to make a habit of it.
I just went in to W's room to tell her abt cheezy movie on tv. (it has historical significance for us and we're both still up)
It was weird. Comfortable. I stayed in there for 1/2 hr. Played with the dog. Made jokes. Was even a little flirty. It's true...they can sense when you're stronger. They can sense fear.
Weird to think that she's acting like this today after house shopping yesterday and telling me it was a mistake to marry me just 4 days ago.
Get this...
W came into our bedroom just after I wrote the above.
"Do you mind if I come in and lay in here?"..."not at all, come on in"
We laid there. Watched TV and jokedd for a bit. ML a couple of times then laid there until the wee hours. S7 and the dog ended up coming and making one big family bed at about 3:30am. (we were still up)
No R talk. No kissing. No telling me she's saying.
She did talk body dent isn't in her spot on the ed anymore and how we need to get some things fixed around our house.
With all of that, I still don't have any expectations. For al I know she's still planning to go, but just needed a booty call.
Somehow I am still kindd of numb. Thank God, this would kill me otherwise. It helps me keep that "swagger" too.
Very good. Don't be surprised if she pulls back again. Keep doing what you are doing that is working. Eventually, when she is feeling close, you should suggest going to a Retrouvaille weekend. Check the website for dates near you,
www.helpourmarriage.org.
Almost felt normal today. Its been a long time..
W sat by me on the couch more than once. She even reached out and put her hand on my are for a while. She pulled me aside and scratched my back.
We watched a movie with S tonight. We playfully touched under the covers!
We went upstairs...and went to separate rooms. Oddly enough, even after all of that I am still kind of detached. Appreciated the evening but had no expectations.
Nno R talk. No talk of staying. She kept talking abt doing stuff to our house and having to cut expenses though. WTF? This coming from someone who is shopping to buy a new house?
This may be hitting a new level of weird.
I think that part of the reason I had no expectations was that I fully expected her to back way off after last night. She didn't.
yet
I'm with you EB. The separation papers, the OW, and he's showing up and being the closest and most attentive he's been since the bomb. I am so confused I feel like barfing. What is up with this?
Who knows? Good chance they feel that they haven't been in control in the relationship before. Maybe you should be careful what you wish for...you might get it. Odd are that the me againgt you dynamic has lessened.
Just as I finished writing my last post W came in. ML. Lots of kissing. Some cuddling. Talk consisted of "it's been so long, etc."
No R talk. She got distant for a few after, but didn't recoil. She just said she was having a moment.
It was nice. Unexpected. And really hot. Still don't know if it's reconciliation or just booty calls from someone who has been lonely.
She's been a little distant this morning. Said she feels weird. I sat down to listen, but I didn't ask her to tell me about it. (I have always been the one to pursue so I'm not now) I just sat. She changed the subject to what she needs to get done today.
I'm going out Jeeping with a friend.
She did make a point to have a conversation about seeing the movie Julie and Julia the other day a few minutes ago. W started telling me about how it was about a woman who was having a hard time turning 30. (hmmm..W can relate?)
She feels off today, but not distancing too much. I figured she'd distance a lot. Two nights in the same bed. ML, and even kissing last night. Still no R talk.
I'll continue getting a life. Continue without expectations.
Had a good day getting Jeep muddy with a friend.
Got home and W had been having a hard time with S. (he's a great kid but can e a handful) Hard to know if her attitude is because of me or her time with him. I don't care as much as I used to though. I am doing the best I can.
She's still talking about the stuff she needs to do to the house. Huh? aren't you moving out?...but I didn't say a word. I just gave my Boy a bath and told her I am sorry her day was challenging.
This is starting to feel like a little bit of a mind-F.
This is starting to feel like a little bit of a mind-F.
Not if you are detached - cuz the result doesn't matter.
Good point.
It doesn't really feel that way it's more of a logical confusion.
It's different. I can't explain it, but it just is.
How so?
Different in the way YOU feel? Different in how SHE seems to be acting?
Different in how I feel.
Basically done being afraid.
This is good. This is what it feels like when you have detached, or are starting to. What used to send you for a loop barely raises an eyebrow now.
Just stay at it. For me, there was a time where I tried to make myself detach. Then when I becaome occupied with something else, it just happened. When you get there, you'll know.
Once you are detached, it is like the worlds biggest mind-F game. But, then, you are the ONLY one who knows what the rules are. Quite an advantage.
She's walking around all depressed again for a few minutes, then cycles to be chatty. Not sure what she has to be so unhappy about. She should be excited to start her new life ***said with a snotty attitude.
I'm starting to wonder, should I say something about her moving when she starts talking about stuff that needs to be done around our house? "Well, I guess that isn't your problem anymore now is it?" comes to mind.
She's reading Eat, Love, Pray. Isn't thay a story singing the praises of dumping your life to screw your way across Europe?
I'm trying to keep up with 4 books right now. I don't know how anyone does it. I still haven't made it all the way through DR, and I've added: How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It, Not Just Friends, and one my DB coach recommended, How To Listen So Your Kids Will Talk And Talk So Your Kids Will Listen (she said it works with spouses too)...in addition to trying to participate here.
I just don't have that much time to read. I used to love reading novels, but I can't remember the last time I did that. Something else to add to my GAL list, I guess. Hopefully, I can work that one in soon.
She's reading Eat, Love, Pray. Isn't thay a story singing the praises of dumping your life to screw your way across Europe?
I haven't read it, but I don't think its quite like that. I flipped that my W was reading it at one point, along with a bunch of other D is good books, and puppy dog tails corrected my impression about Eat, Love, Pray - my impression was pretty similar to yours.
About the time my W finished Eat, Love, Pray was when she began acting nicer.
Anyone out there know about this book?
Eat, Pray, Love is about a woman whose husband divorces her and how she GAL. Eat - Italy, Pray - meditation in India and then she finds love. It's not a total chick book. I enjoyed it. There is a pretty strong spiritual side it that I enjoyed.
Cheers
Man, is there anything you HAVEN'T read. We are going to have to start calling you "Dr." Coach. Just don't send me a bill.
Now that you say that, that reminds me that Puppy told me that book was written by a woman whose H had left her.
doesn't seem to me she's moving out. When my H moved out, he stormed out and wouldn't even be in the same room with me for over a month. Let alone ML? Please. She's had a change of heart. She's not going through with it.
So you either wait it out and watch her NOT LEAVE or you CONFRONT and say basically "I don't want to feel mind-f***ed any more." If you are leaving, I want a date. IF you are not, do not bring it up again."
Seems she was just trying to get a reaction out of you.
Eat Pray Love is autobiographical about a woman who finds herself first and love next. It is not a "dump your husband and screw your way around the world book." It is a good book. She never tells us much about the xhusband. The book is not about her marriage. You needn't get upset that your wife is reading it.
Thanks for all of your feedback on the book guys. It's funny, I don't feel like I NEED to know as much or pry as much as I used to, but I would still like to have some idea of what's going on here. I just NEED to figure out what's happening in my life. Where it's headed.
Where your life is headed is up to you.
doesn't seem to me she's moving out. When my H moved out, he stormed out and wouldn't even be in the same room with me for over a month. Let alone ML? Please. She's had a change of heart. She's not going through with it.
So you either wait it out and watch her NOT LEAVE or you CONFRONT and say basically "I don't want to feel mind-f***ed any more." If you are leaving, I want a date. IF you are not, do not bring it up again."
Seems she was just trying to get a reaction out of you.
The more I go through this with her, the more I think there's MLC involved. The movies she's watched, the "life path" talk, the conversations we've had, the ups and downs we've gone through.
Logically I don't want her to go. I know it's what's best. In a weird way though, I almost would welcome the change. (easier to say now, but I am sure I would not REALLY want to see her go)
She's been back in her room the past two nights. I didn't invite her in though. I've made no advances. No hugs, no kisses. I didn't tell her that she was welcome to come in either. I'm just going with her flow. Should I invite her in?
Where your life is headed is up to you.
Not completely. If I can put things together with her it goes one direction. I am not entirely in control of that option.
I could choose to go in another direction. That could be in control of that decision, but option #1 isn't entirely up to me.
I think that was GIMA's point. What do you have control over?
Me. Not her.
I have the control to make the choice to get on with my life without her. I'm just not ready to pull the trigger on that choice yet though.
Just a funny observation: It really seems to pi$$ her of that I am not the a-hole that she wants me to be.
Example:
She acts strange and distant. I say "Hi, what a beautiful day outside."
She acts like a total b**ch. I say, I'm sorry you're having a tough day.
It seems to bother her. She really seems to want me to be a jerk to justify her actions toward me. It seems to make her more mad when I am not.
An E-mail from a minute ago got me thinking. I sent her a message to let her know I'd be home late tonight. I didn't say why and that seems to bother her (my IC appt). Her response was short and snippy, so I had to send one back..."I hope you're having a great day!
---no response from W.
As the great Bugs Bunny said..."Ain't I a stinker?"
She's been back in her room the past two nights. I didn't invite her in though. I've made no advances. No hugs, no kisses. I didn't tell her that she was welcome to come in either. I'm just going with her flow. Should I invite her in?
Nope. And here's the attitude to foster in yourself - not that YOU want HER back, but that SHE needs to have SPACE to FIND HERSELF. That can be a good thing in a M. Like her book choice shows - if she finds herself, she can find love. If she feels you UNDERSTAND - because you really do, not because you are trying to convince her - that she needs space to find herself, she may not move out to do it.
I had a MLC before our bomb. It means I am not at all just a victim of WAS. I hit 40 and my S started school fulltime and I didn't know who I was. It hit me haaaaard. I wasn't as thin, young, independant as I once was. I felt trapped as a wife and mother, not because I didn't want to be but because I wasn't facing my feelings about growning older and letting go of my youth.
Had I been able to admit this to myself, I could have talked to my H. Had I talked to my H, perhaps I wouldn't be where I am today.
May I suggest read "Eat, Pray, Love" and put your feelings and fears aside. Be open to imagining what she is getting from it and what she needs. Then you can come to her and say, "I understand" that's really all I ever wanted from my H and many of my girlfriends and the books say that is what women reaaaaaalllllllllly love. Understanding. Compassion. Support her need to find herself. Don't put it in terms of D because that is irrelevant - keep it coming back to an inner feeling of freedom for her. Like you are supporting her development of herself. Perhaps then she can stop blaming you for "stopping" her from finding herself and she can do the work herself and see she has a loving supportive partner along the way.
Just my two cents from a woman's perspective. Good luck EB
PS Love the positive attitude. Good for you.
Hope...that was a great post.
Thank you.
Do you have any suggestions on how I can be supportive without coming off as trying to "fix" her? That's been a real issue for me. Anything that I do to try to be understanding or supportive seems to come off that way to her.
Anyone? I'd really appreciation ideas.
I thought the numbness from early last week would have worn off by now. It hasn't really.
She's still in my house. No more talk of leaving. No talk of staying. The uneasiness that was there between us before I said I accept that she is moving out seems to be gone. No more coming into my room or touching, but not anger either.
I'm really starting to question what I want now. I am truly sorry for my role in this, but do I want to be with a woman who treats me like she has? Should I see this as a terrible time that if we work through there is a great marriage waiting on the other side?
If nothing else, it helps me understand how she has gotten to her place a little better.
I'm really starting to question what I want now. I am truly sorry for my role in this, but do I want to be with a woman who treats me like she has?
This is normal. Especially the doubting part. Just realize, you "feel" this way b/c she is not meeting your needs right now. And remember, this is why we don't trust our "feelings." Love is a decision.
Should I see this as a terrible time that if we work through there is a great marriage waiting on the other side?
Absolutely. Who knows what will happen with anyone here. And, that includes what you will want. But, if you understand why you feel the way you do right now, and that feelings are not a solid base for a decision, you can understand that the answer to this question is "yes."
Interesting GIMA. I'll have to process this and see if I agree. The problem as I see it is we, the LBS, have made major changes in our lives. At the same time the WAS as avoided any type of change. As there is always to sides to the story one party is moving forward while the other is standing still. Until such a time that the other party starts to address the real issues what is the hope of reconciliation?
Well...she's changed. That's for sure.
She's angry, insulting, hurtful, has different morals and values than she used to (claims she was always this way, I just didn't know it).
I have no interest in spending the rest of my life with her the way she is now. If I think that she is going through a horrible time and we will go through a great deal of personal growth together from this and end up closer than ever I want to keep going. It's hard to see that right now though.
Funny that I keep getting called too logical and not emotional enough (most men are) when it's the logical part that's keeping me going at this point.
Interesting GIMA. I'll have to process this and see if I agree. The problem as I see it is we, the LBS, have made major changes in our lives. At the same time the WAS as avoided any type of change. As there is always to sides to the story one party is moving forward while the other is standing still. Until such a time that the other party starts to address the real issues what is the hope of reconciliation?
The deal as I see it is that from the day the bomb is dropped, we LBS's are playing catch-up. The WAS has already detached from a long time leading up to the bomb day. Once detached, and fueled by negative emotions for which they blame the LBS (some valid, some not), the WAS can make the announcement that they are "done," "ILYBNILWY," and so forth. So, we LBS's then start the proceess, after getting over the initial "shock and awe", the WAS has already completed - detachment.
IMO (and after learning from Coach), our goal is to work on ourselves and get ahead of our WAS's by detaching. It is only from that perspective (if you aren't the lead dog, the view never changes) that teh LBS can begin to lead the M and create an environment where the WAS thinks it's worth working on the M. Maybe by this point, the LBS has begun to see things objectively and sees aspects of the WAS the LBS does not like and will not tolerate in the future. I think this is normal. Along with this comes doubting the MR. Again, normal. But, until the WAS is ready to work on the M, it is not time to address those concerns or issues (boundary line issues excluded obviously).
The big difference I see b/w the WAS and the LBS who has caught up with and passed (hopefully) the WAS is precisely what you point out - the LBS has not only detached, but has also made major changes to improve themselves. The WAS, most times, has simply detached without "doing the work." Perhaps this is why the changes in the LBS confuse the WAS.
Until the WAS is lured back into a state of wanting to work on the M, reconciliation will not happen. (Sort of begs the question of what is the definition of "reconciled" but that's a whole other ball of wax).
So, the issue seems to be whether the LBS is willing to "do the work" to create the possibility the WAS will want to work on the M. This is what we all signed up for when we started DB'ing. Maybe the M is saved, maybe not. But, we have to be the ones to carry the water and do the work until the WAS is ready to hop back in the canoe and help paddle.
EB,
She's angry, insulting, hurtful, has different morals and values than she used to (claims she was always this way, I just didn't know it).
This is good. She has a lot of anger/hurt/frustration bottled up inside. She NEEDS to get it out, and venting it on you is the only way that's going to happen. That's why it's so important to validate what she complains about.
Do you have any suggestions on how I can be supportive without coming off as trying to "fix" her?
listen, agree with her (validate her feelings)
read what is going on over at Thinkers thread.
Thanks GIMA. So if I get what your saying once we have arrived at this point (ILYB) we are on equal footing as the WAS. Then we just keep going in the direction we set forth. If the WAS chooses to follow good, if not good. Either way we have become better for the experience.
Thanks GIMA and CB. I need something to keep me on track today. I'm really starting to check out.
Thanks to you too Coach. I will check out Thinker's sitch today.
So if I get what your saying once we have arrived at this point (ILYB) we are on equal footing as the WAS.
Not really so much equal footing as ahead of them. I like to think WAS has detached and the LBS, at this point, has detached PLUS made changes to be happy for themselves.
If the WAS comes back, then good (if that is what the LBS still wants). If the WAS does not come back, that's ok too, b/c LBS is this new and improved, AND HAPPY/FULFILLED person just like they are. At that point, it's the WAS's loss.
Yes, listen and validate. Have compassion that something else is going on underneath all the bluster. Offer to help.
Then walk away and detach.
Uh...gut check.
I thought maybe...just maybe...
There has been no more moving talk. Talk of doing stuff to our house. Sleeping with me.
I just walked by her on the computer. She's looking at houses.
What a kick in the gut.
Well she's torn. She's not gone. SHe's in your bed. How I wish I was that close to my H these days. Looking doesn't mean anything. IT's just a fantasy.
You're right. She is torn. She's not in my bed though. She was for two nights, but not since.
I saw her on the computer. She didn't hide it. I went upstairs as I usually do to change my clothes after work and wrote my previous post.
When I came down, she called me over and said "Just do you know, when I am looking at this stuff, I am thinking of it as temporary. Hopefully this will give me the space that I need and then I'll come back home. We'll just use the other place as investment property."
We hugged, we cried etc.
I told her that I still didn't agree, but would accept it if that's what she really felt she needed. She cried and told me that she's so sorry for this and thanked me for not hating her. I responded by telling her that I am just trying to be supportive, understanding and the best husband I can be. I said "It's funny, I think that I'm now a better husband than I have ever been." She agreed.
I told her that her actions confuse me. If she hates being in debt, it doesn't make sense to take on the expenses of another house. It's more than just the down payment but closing costs, prepaids, home inspection, appliances, association fees, furnishing etc. But if that's what she really felt she needed.
She had gotten pizza for dinner and I brought homw a couple of movies. I wasn't in the mood for a family night at that point so I went for a walk.
When I got home she seemed concerned about me. I was careful not tu make it about me at that point. We hugged some more and she went for a walk herself.
She still cares sometimes, but this seems to be becoming a lot more MLC.
I am struggling. I have made a choice, a committment to see this thing through, but I am sick of rejection. Being unwanted. I'm thinking of all of the mean things that have been said and done. Do I want someone who treats me this way?
I think you have to look and see where it is coming from. In other words, my W right now has said and done hurtful things. She rejects me daily. But if she isn't really in her "right" state of mind, I can disregard those things. If we begin to reconnect and start to reconcile, those hurtful things should stop. If they don't, then I would start wondering if it is time to move on myself.
I hope this makes sense. We are starting Retrouvaille tonight, and I have been kinda thinking this way. She isn't wearing her rings and sometimes talks to me like I am one of the children. But she is hurting inside. Hopefully this weekend will help her start to heal herself so we can heal the M.
Thanks O.
I need something to keep me going. I know I should. I just don't want to this week.
Look, you have been through a wild emotional swing recently. Plus you have some indication that she is still in it. All I have right now is indifference. If I can keep going, you can.
Plans for the weekend.
Watch Crank 2 tonight. Have a couple of beers. Sit by the firepit in the backyard.
Tomorrow: Mow grass, play golf.
Sunday: Work on the car. Get my a$$ back in the gym.
Maybe I'll see if I can work an early autumn boat ride in there with a couple of friends somewhere. I need to have plans so I don't just end up siting around.
Good ideas. Definately keep busy. My negative thinking times are when I am idle.
Look, you have been through a wild emotional swing recently. Plus you have some indication that she is still in it. All I have right now is indifference. If I can keep going, you can.
I've been through indifference. Indignance. Hostility. Anger. Resentment. She has thrown it all at me.
It was only just over a week ago that she was yelling that she should have never married me across the front yard (hi neighbors). I have heard how she has "never" been in love with me. Watched her flirt with other guys at friend's parties. Seen her suck down wiskey with other men minutes after I asked her not to. Heard her tell me that her "happiness is out there with someone else" ON our 10th wedding anniversary. Sat there while she went to the bar in a minidress without a ring until 3am. Saw her throw up in my car (son in backseat) while driving her home from a party where she drank too much. Read facebook posts by another man referencing how she needed to be spanked. Listened while she told me that her GF is more important to her and she wants to "kick me to the curb." I've been called selfish and 'making everything about me' after working over 50 hours per week to provide everything we own, helped her start a business, and lived in a state that I never wanted to be in for the past 10 years. And I've dreaded being called controlling and manipulating if I decided to say a word about any of it.
You're right though. There is an indication that she is still in it. I need to remember that...and continue to focus on myself. Get a life. And let it play out as it will.
And I've dreaded being called controlling and manipulating if I decided to say a word about any of it.
how did that work for you?
And I've dreaded being called controlling and manipulating if I decided to say a word about any of it.
how did that work for you?
It sucked!
And I've dreaded being called controlling and manipulating if I decided to say a word about any of it.
how did that work for you?
It sucked!
So what is your solution to avoid repeating this? This is a big issue for you and your marriage.
At this point, I'm just doing my own thing and she's doing hers.
ANYTHING that I say about my thoughts, feelings, etc either shuts her down or sets her off. I have tried to address things in a different way. Tried to be uber sweet. Made sure I wasn't demanding. Tried to E-mail instead of face to face talk. I haven't had a lot of success here though.
I have recently just let her do her own thing. She knows how I feel on most things. She does the things that I hate just to "show me" that she can. Funny thing is that when I don't say a word about it she seems to lose her motivation for doing these things. If I continue to keep mum, she ends up feeling guilty.
Suggestions? Thoughts? Am I missing something? (I've been known to miss things right in front of my own face)
Simple. If she does something (her behavior) that bothers you then bring it up. Very calmly, state the boundary and the consequence for breaking it.
Lot's of info on the web about setting boundaries.
I'll read more about it. ANY time I have even started bringing up something that bothers me though it shuts her down or sets her off though. I have heard "I'm sick of hearing what you want," and "It's always about you," so many times. Sometimes it gives her a roadmap of what she will do next. The very thing that I have asked her not to do!
I have had a habit in the past of not letting something go if it bothered me. I have gotten a lot better at that now.
One more thing, I have very few consequences at this point.
ANY time I have even started bringing up something that bothers me though it shuts her down or sets her off though. I have heard "I'm sick of hearing what you want," and "It's always about you," so many times
Give a specific example of what you said and why and her response.
There are always consequences.
It's really hard to think of specific examples right now. I'm all weird at the moment. I will have to make a point to go back and review some of these times this weekend.
Funny thing is that when I don't say a word about it she seems to lose her motivation for doing these things. If I continue to keep mum, she ends up feeling guilty.
Suggestions? Thoughts? Am I missing something? (I've been known to miss things right in front of my own face)
That's your answer, I think. If you have had trouble letting things go in the past (I do this too) then do a 180 - don't say a word. The lack of reaction seems to change her behavior.
I don't say much about anything anymore.
W called as I was leaving work on Friday. She told me she was going out of town to her parent's house for the weekend. (4 hrs away). It was kind of a surprise. We had a movie that we talked about watching this weekend. She gave me a hug before she left. Interesting. She called only twice to talk to S over the weekend and didn't even call Saturday night to talk to S. On one of her calls though, we chatted for a few minutes. Good, upbeat, "what are your plans for the day" kind of stuff.
(yes I know she was at her parent's house...caller ID and S went from talking to W to talking to his cousins that were there)
S and I had a good lazy weekend together. Worked on a lot around the house. The feeling changed when W got home though. IT seemed like she was "on" again. I say this when it seems like she is trying a little too hard to be the cool kid in school. She has done this a lot since this all started. She starts acting a little too happy (singing, dancing, talking about her great weekend, blasting mushc, gabbing with GF, and texting up a storm)
As soon as she got home I just didn't want to be there anymore.
While my S was playing with neighbor kids, I was talking to their mom this weekend. It was disturbing to hear that back in May my W was at her house smoking up a storm and getting drunk. I remember the night vividly. It was the first time she came home and told me she wanted a D. She was so full or anger. It's hard to see my W being this way. She has always been the "Good Girl" and is trying so hard to not be that person anymore.
I am reflecting on last week when W was looking at real estate online. She made a point to tell me she felt it was going to be temporary.
When I was talking to neighbor yesterday she told me she talked to W and W told her she was moving out for a little while too. It seems as if W really feels, or is trying to convince herself, that this is temporary and something she "needs."
I've been feeling pretty detached, but the impromptu weekend trip, followed by making only enough dinner for her and S last night (when I came down to eat she said..."Oh, I didn't know you were hungry") really hit me with a sense of rejection that I didn't think I was subject to at this point.
Havent read all you sitch EB but you sure sound like you need a hug! (())
Rabbit
Thanks. I kind of am today.
Hey man, been there. This will pass.
So, what can you do for yourself today that would be fun? You won't feel like having fun, and you will probably have to make yourself do it. She's not meeting your needs right now, and won't for a while, so you have to do that.
Find something you enjoy but haven't done in a while. Then go do it.
What has triggered your feelings? If you can identify the trigger, you can deal with it.
You ARE stronger than this.
Thanks GIMA.
I've been feeling pretty shut of lately. Since the night she packed her stuff and the following day when she took our S house shopping. (ugh!)
Since then, we have been a little closer believe it or not. She slept with me for two nights. Even after I saw she's still looking at houses she made a point to hug me and tell me that she really feels that it will be temporaty to give her the space she needs. She even told me that I have done more than she could have hoped for and she loves me.
I thought she was getting more comfortable with me. The out of the blue trip and crazy distance when she got back was just weird though. I was fine until she got home. Within a few hours she excluded me from dinner (made just enough for her and S7), told me she never comes in our room any more so she doesn't get my laundry (I am welcome to throw mine in with hers) and I just felt ignored or ostracized in my own house. Listening to the neighbor talk about my W smoking and getting drunk with her was a bit to process too. I just still can't see this as "her."
I'll have to think about something I can do for myself. I may sign up for a 5k run taking place next month.
I thought she was getting more comfortable with me. The out of the blue trip and crazy distance when she got back was just weird though. I was fine until she got home. Within a few hours she excluded me from dinner (made just enough for her and S7), told me she never comes in our room any more so she doesn't get my laundry (I am welcome to throw mine in with hers) and I just felt ignored or ostracized in my own house. Listening to the neighbor talk about my W smoking and getting drunk with her was a bit to process too. I just still can't see this as "her."
First, the person you think is your W is NOT. So, she is not HER.
Also, I have been told the same things about the laundry, dinner, etc. Just let it slide off - I know, easier said than done.
OK, the whipsaw of her being in a good mood when she was away then a bad mood once she got home. I had this happen to me on one of my trips out of town, but from your persepctive. The first time I went out of town without my W, I felt a complete release of all pressure - b/c I wasn't around her. On the way back from the trip, I could feel my anxiety building the closer I got home. My brother told me this was something he experienced in his sitch (his W had an A) and was not surprised when I did too.
Your W may have had a similar experience. Just understand she is under a lot of stress and pressure just like you. She may have been in a bad mood b/c of the situation, not b/c of YOU. And, it is also the down cyle of the roller coaster.
I'll have to think about something I can do for myself. I may sign up for a 5k run taking place next month.
That's a start. It can be something as simple as trying a restaurant you have been wanting to try for lunch but haven't had the time. The point is to make yourself happy, even if only for a little while.
I also think you need to focus more on detaching. It takes a while to get there, and you will have up and downs until you do. Just keep at it and keep the focus on YOU.
GIMA - have you read the book "The Dance of Anger?"
It talks a little about the see-saw of relationships. It helps to understand some of the ups and downs a little better.
GIMA - have you read the book "The Dance of Anger?"
Not yet. Working on "Learned Optimism" right now. I will put it on the list.
One day, I may get back to reading for pleasure!
First, the person you think is your W is NOT. So, she is not HER.
Can you elaborate? The person that I think she is not really who she is or the person she is right now is not really who she is? (kind of confusing)
I have been worried lately...what if this is the REAL her? That's what she keeps saying. She has been telling me that she's been an uncaring, outgoing, wild party girl all along, but has just hidden it (for over 12 years).
I know what you mean about the reading for pleasure. All I have right now are basically "self-help" books. The Bible too. I have been reading a lot more of that than I ever had before.
Can you elaborate? The person that I think she is not really who she is or the person she is right now is not really who she is? (kind of confusing)
My point was who she is behaving like now is not who she is. I don't buy this:
She has been telling me that she's been an uncaring, outgoing, wild party girl all along, but has just hidden it (for over 12 years).
If you had a certain personality type, do you think (a) you could pretend to be something other than that for 12 years and (b) pretend so effectively that you fool the one person on earth who should know you better than anyone else for 12 years?
Now, that said, I do believe now SHE THINKS she has always been the "party girl." But I suspect this is something she will come out of at some point. It just sounds too much like script and the fog working here.
And, in the end, you can't control what she thinks or does, so it's not your job to figure it out or convince her of anything (which, BTW, won't work).
Just keep focusing on you, changing, and work on detaching. The rest will come, but not until you take care of you.
That's what I have been thinking too. It's nice to see that I'm not all alone in that thinking.
I'm definitely changing. Detaching too. Up and down.
I'm just so damn lonely. This is the first day in weeks if not months that I have had such a strong urge to call her. (I won't)
It was just a few days ago, I thought I was ready to tell her that I didn't want her back if she indeed does move out.
Well...she's not shy anymore.
She is to the point of leaving her real estate listings laying right out in the open. And she went to GF's house as soon as I got home. Not before she told me how she spent all day at GF's house though.
I'm going running.
Did that myself tonight.
Let the rest go. She might act on it. She might not. Either way, it's beyond your control.
Sounds like she's just trying to get a reaction. She can't just be up front about it? Instead has to leave things out for you to see? Sounds like she's testing you. Remember - detach. Don't take the bait.
I've been having a hard time feeling detached this week. I feel more like throwing the !@$@ing rope than dropping it.
Last night W was talking about signing S up for a couple of different extracurricular activities for this upcoming school year. I mentioned that one of the classes sounded like more fun than another when she asked my opinion. It was the more expensive of the two so I quickly rethought my position and said, "W we're really going to have to watch our pennies now."
She flew off the handle
"What's that supposed to mean? I asked you about this before and you were OK with it!" I tried to resist the bait and responded, "I am OK with him taking a class but now that we're going to have two households to cover with the same amount of income I think that we should go with the cheaper one."
She got all STRONG and DEFENSIVE. I HATE when she turns into this person. She makes a point to turn it into a me against you, defend myself like I'm being attacked issue.
"Don't you think that I know we're going to have less money.? You don't need to explain it to me!" She said. And she proceeded to be a distant jerk for a while.
I told her that this wasn't a me against you thing. I'm not attacking you and I don't appreciate you being defensive against me. I simply rethought my first opinion because I realized that we are going to be strapped since she is BUYING A SECOND HOUSE. She couldn't leave it alone and kept saying, "don't you think I get that" and "it sounded like you were explaining it to me."
I'm so sick of measuring every word with her. I'm sick of not having a wife. I'm sick of being the turn the cheek nice guy every day. I'm sick of watching her act like a teenager with her girlfriend!
This all seems so stupid to me still. She talks about feeling lonely. WTF...you're choosing to be alone! I'm sitting right here!!!!
Hope - you're right. It was bait. She hasn't had a reason to paint me as the bad guy in a while, so she's reaching for ANYTHING to make herself feel more justified.
Sorry buddy, but you took the bait whether you realize it or not.
This,
Last night W was talking about signing S up for a couple of different extracurricular activities for this upcoming school year. I mentioned that one of the classes sounded like more fun than another when she asked my opinion. It was the more expensive of the two so I quickly rethought my position and said, "W we're really going to have to watch our pennies now."
was good. This,
I told her that this wasn't a me against you thing. I'm not attacking you and I don't appreciate you being defensive against me. I simply rethought my first opinion because I realized that we are going to be strapped since she is BUYING A SECOND HOUSE.
was not.
I suspect she is venting at you b/c she understands the reality (strapped finances) and she sees you as the only barrier b/w her and the utopian life she has created in her mind for herself. She knows you are right, she just can't admit it. Thus, you get this,
she's reaching for ANYTHING to make herself feel more justified.
Stand your ground. Calmly explain your position. Let her vent (unless she gets disrespectful - which is a "conversation ender"). But, don't let her pull you over the line into an emotional engagement where you try to defend your position and explain the "why's." She understands the "why's" and if you try to explain them to her, then you become even more a part of the problem.
Understand that it is good for her to get her anger out. No matter how much you feel you don't deserve it. Just be a bystander and even give her the platform to vent. Just don't step into the ring with her. That's what she wants b/c then, by fighting with her, you are justifying her reasons your M won't work.
I may have taken some bait. I stayed calm and thought I was just setting my boundary that I wasn't going to get into a me against you thing. You may be right though. At least it was limited. Very frustrating, but limited.
I'm at a very frustrated spot in general with it all right now. Considering how I have been feeling about things this week, I am happy with myself for not blowing up. I realy feel like I've just 'had it' right now.
I am sure you're right in that she does see me as the one thing in between her and her "utopian life." I don't think that she thinks about it though. It all seems to be how she "feels."
It "feels" to me like she wants a clubhouse and a sugar daddy to pay for her playing with her GF all day.
It "feels" to me like she wants a clubhouse and a sugar daddy to pay for her playing with her GF all day.
Well, that's not gonna happen.
Get busy. Deal with your anger - let it out, awBut she has to figure that out on her own.ay from her and the family. DON'T suppress it. It WILL come back up. This is where LOTS of exercise helped me, and still does. Couple it with doing something for yourself.
Then once you get it out, you can get back in the game.
It "feels" to me like she wants a clubhouse and a sugar daddy to pay for her playing with her GF all day.
Well, that's not gonna happen.
It's kind of happening right now. I'm at work. She's off playing with GF. Interesting that I'm the selfish one.
I'm just being pi$$y this last couple of days. I'll get through it. Exercise is a great suggestion.
How much running did you get in last night? I ran about 2 miles then walked nearly another three.
The "not gonna happen" part was referring to the sugardaddy comment. What she does is...well...what she does. You can't control that and you know it.
Don't blame you for being pi$$y. I had (and still do) times where I reached a point of anger with W. "Why is she doing this?" "Who does she think she is?" "Can't she see how unreasonable she's being?" "Does she think I'm gonna live this way forever?" And it does make one angry. I think that's normal.
How much running did you get in last night? I ran about 2 miles then walked nearly another three.
I did about 2.5. Didn't have a lot of time - ran just before going to S's football practice. I think I'm going to get an upper body work out in tonight. W and kids are having dinner with one of W's D'd and re-M'd friends and her kids. Think I will take a pass on this one (I was invited) and go work out. ME time.
Sounds like the real issue wasn't your kids' activities it was the new house, the sugardaddy feelings, etc. I do the same thing with my H. He wanted to take this over night trip and I got all upset about the money. Really about my upset that he is paying for his own apt. lawyers, everything else. Not the trip. So it's hard, but the task is to try to separate it out. Don't get baited into arguing about something else like your kids' activities.
What I do is go off my myself, talk to a friend, talk on here, journal, whatever to sort out my own anger and pain. Then if and when there is a chance to really talk to my H about this and he is in a place to really hear it, then it can be about the real subject. If H and/or I can't talk about that, I deal with my feelings on my own and try not to get into it with H. There's no point. Otherwise, it will just be a big fight.
On the other hand, if she (or you) can't stick to the topic of your kids' activities without all the other stuff clouding the discussion - which of course it will this is totally understandable - just walk away until this topic can be resolved without the other emotions. I would maybe send her an email or something brief about the activity you support because it saves a few pennies. That is really good and to the point. Make sure she sticks to the point or drop the conversation.
Thanks Hope. I didn't get all upset. She did. I have been going for a lot of walks in the evenings. Every night I go at least a couple of miles. It keeps me from saying something stupid.
I have been upset most of the week though. Last Thursday we hugged. She was emotionally available. She said she pictured this would be temporary. She slept in my bed and kissed me a little over a week ago.
This week, she has been distant and cold. I guess it should be expected, but she keeps excluding me from stuff in my own house. We (Me, W & S) started to watch a movie two nights ago. S's bed time came and we stopped the movie. "We'll watch the rest of it tomorrow" W said. Last night, I got home (they were just finishing up a big dinner w/o me)and had to run to the store. By the time I got back, they were 1/2 hour into the movie. It seems petty, but I felt very left out. I haven't said much about anything lately, but I told my wife that I didn't get what was happening int he movie now and I had wished that she called me. She kind of blew it off. She has frequently done inconsiderate things like this and blames me for being oversensitive when I say that I have felt left out.
There are 100 other examples of this going on right now.
I have wanted to just say F-it and ask her to go file this week. At least tell her if she goes it won't be temporary because I don't want her to come back. It's more comfortable when she's not there at this point.
I feel so disrespected as a husband. I want to say "If this move out thing is temporary, then at least put your ring back on." or "I am uncomfortable with you here, when are you planning to get out?"
With all of this said, she has been oddly cordial to me. Not much anger. Just a lot of distance. She complimented my haircut and seems to be coming up with reasons to call or E-mail me at work the past couple of days.
It feels like such a game. I'm really fighting the urge to tell her to pick a direction and go with it.
I know. I get the same mixed messages. Can I just say hang in there? She's not gone yet, so part of her wants to be there no matter what she says? I want my H to pick a direction too. But I also feel relief when I know he hasn't picked the direction of D yet. They open, they close, they give, they take. It's a roller coaster. I want to tell him to stick it too. But then it would all be over, and he'd blame me. Not going to do it.
sounds like time for some boundaries however. If she is to be around - what behavior will you tolerate, which won't you? Bottom lines - you'll walk away if she... you'll hang out with her if she... you will tolerate.... you won't tolerate...
If what you want and need is for her to make a solid decision one way or the other, then respect your own need for this. If you don't want to play guessing games any more, your bottom line could be that you won't hang out with her until a decision is made on her part. This will protect your emotions. Just an example, but a way to protect and care for yourself. Hang in there - I'm right there with ya.
You're right. I need to do a better job with boundaries.
I haven't really done anything here because my only recourse would be to tell her that if she..., I would leave/ask her to leave. Well, I don't want to leave my home. I didn't want her to either. So that has been a struggle for me. In addition, she has wanted to be apart so it would be more like a reward than a consequence at this point. Another BIG thing is that one of the major themes i nher revolving issues is that I have tried to control her. If I told her that if she...I would... she would see this as controlling and feel justified in her fog.
I'll have to put some thought to this. I kind of want her to go this week though.
I'm having a hard time thinking of the good times this week. All I can think of are the times when she would be inconsiderate or do things that I hate. A lot of this has come since the bomb, but there were some of these things berore too. It didn't happen very often, but over 12 years there were enough times that I'm struggling this week.
I logically know that we had a great marriage and good times outweighed the bad 100 to 1. Hearing her talk about how unhappy she has been, how it was a mistake to marry me, how it was all a lie has really made me question if this is the woman that I want.
I feel horrible for even thinking this way, but it's there this week.
If what you want and need is for her to make a solid decision one way or the other, then respect your own need for this. If you don't want to play guessing games any more, your bottom line could be that you won't hang out with her until a decision is made on her part. This will protect your emotions. Just an example, but a way to protect and care for yourself. Hang in there - I'm right there with ya.
Good advice. Adopting the Stockdale Paradox helped me deal with that dilemma. Smiley calls it the "Spiers Doctrine" from Band of Brothers, "You can't be a good soldier until you realise you are dead."
You have to be driving towards parallel outcomes, divorce or reconciliation. Thinking thru that helps you detach. You don't control the outcome. You only control your thoughts, feelings, and actions. Do what you have to to thrive no matter the outcome.
I'm having a hard time thinking of the good times this week. All I can think of are the times when she would be inconsiderate or do things that I hate. A lot of this has come since the bomb, but there were some of these things berore too. It didn't happen very often, but over 12 years there were enough times that I'm struggling this week.
I logically know that we had a great marriage and good times outweighed the bad 100 to 1. Hearing her talk about how unhappy she has been, how it was a mistake to marry me, how it was all a lie has really made me question if this is the woman that I want.
I feel horrible for even thinking this way, but it's there this week.
Change your thinking and get busy doing. You can handle it.
Thanks Coach. I read a little about the Stockdale Paradox just now.
"Keep the faith" seems to be a reoccouring message that I am hearing lately.
You're right. I need to do a better job with boundaries.
I haven't really done anything here because my only recourse would be to tell her that if she..., I would leave/ask her to leave. Well, I don't want to leave my home. I didn't want her to either. So that has been a struggle for me. In addition, she has wanted to be apart so it would be more like a reward than a consequence at this point. Another BIG thing is that one of the major themes i nher revolving issues is that I have tried to control her. If I told her that if she...I would... she would see this as controlling and feel justified in her fog.
I get it. I do the same thing with my H. I don't want to "reward" him by letting him go. But that's DB. We need to demonstrate the 180 of acceptance, or else they do feel controlled. They will never make the decision one way or the other to be with us as long as they are reacting to our pressure to reconcile.
My advice is more an inner attitude - doesn't have to be said directly to spouse. And it doesn't have to be as extreme as "If W does.... then I'll leave". It can be an inner attitude of smaller 180's - "if W .... then I will .... leave the room... not talk to her... watch tv or eat by myself... " the point being that your bottom line is for you and you alone. You know that in that moment you don't want to be treated that way so you won't. In that moment. Nothing even has to be said. They will notice.
Per your response to my thread - I'm trying that tonight too. I know that bottom line, I don't want to be rejected any more. I will not attempt to cuddle him or hug him not to get a reaction out of him, but because I don't want to feel the pain of being the only one interested in working on this M. I also don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. I also don't want to be blamed for all our problems. Does this mean I will just up and leave him for good? No. I don't want that either. But if I am pursuing someone who is unavailable to me, and hurting me through their blame, I need to take care of myself better. I have to realize this is no good for me. So tonight, a small step. I will go out after dinner. When he is here, I will go exercise and go to the library to work or read books. I will take care of me. Not for his reaction. Because I'm hurting myself by trying to convince someone who isn't ready to be close to me. It is kind of controlling. We need to recognize that.
STOCKDALE PARADOX:
"You must retain faith that you can prevail to greatness in the end, while retaining the discipline to confront the brutal facts of your current reality."
Admiral James Stockdale was shot down in Viet Nam and imprisoned in the "Hanoi Hilton" for almost eight years. He was also its highest-ranking officer. He writes about his experience in his book, In Love and War. How did he survive while others did not? "Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties." He adds, however, what distinguishes his position from simple "optimism" - and formulates what has become known as the Stockdale Paradox: "and confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
This is the critical difference which guards against the endless disappointment that optimism’s carrots' evasiveness create - until, maybe, the reward in the end. On the other hand, an ability to continue making realistic assessments of one's current life situation measures and apportions one’s energies and reserves to better face each challenge as it comes, thus positioning one with a stronger chance to prevail.
I get it. I do the same thing with my H. I don't want to "reward" him by letting him go. But that's DB. We need to demonstrate the 180 of acceptance, or else they do feel controlled. They will never make the decision one way or the other to be with us as long as they are reacting to our pressure to reconcile.
My advice is more an inner attitude - doesn't have to be said directly to spouse. And it doesn't have to be as extreme as "If W does.... then I'll leave". It can be an inner attitude of smaller 180's - "if W .... then I will .... leave the room... not talk to her... watch tv or eat by myself... " the point being that your bottom line is for you and you alone. You know that in that moment you don't want to be treated that way so you won't. In that moment. Nothing even has to be said. They will notice.
Thanks. This helps me see it a little differently.
I have done some of these things. She doesn't seem to notice much. Maybe, maybe not. At least I don't have to sit there for it and I can go do something I enjoy.
I need to take care of myself better. I have to realize this is no good for me. So tonight, a small step. I will go out after dinner. When he is here, I will go exercise and go to the library to work or read books. I will take care of me. Not for his reaction.
Good for you!
Because I'm hurting myself by trying to convince someone who isn't ready to be close to me. It is kind of controlling. We need to recognize that.
I hadn't looked at it like tht either. You're making a lot of sense to me today.
EB
I hope I have helped. It's an idea that just came to me last night. It's like - we are hurting ourselves by wanting someone to come back who is so distant and rejecting. We are then setting ourselves up for rejection and pain. It's still painful they don't want to be near us, but we choose not to step into a pond full of snapping alligators because we will certainly get bitten. No matter how much we yearn for a swim, the alligator bites are going to hurt a lot more.
I'm not planning on hanging out with my H tonight because I don't want to be disappointed. I have my plans. If he chooses to ask me to spend time with him, I'll do it only if it is nurturing for me. But if I am yearning for hugs and kisses, I'll be let down so perhaps my answer should be no at this time.
I hope you can protect yourself too. It doesn't matter if she notices. Someday, someone will. It may or may not be her. But if she isn't noticing and you want her too, again, you'll just be in pain. So do it for you. You deserve to be wanted and desired and loved.
I have some vacation time to burn up, so I took the day off. I took S to school this morning then spent the rest of the day out. I hung out with my sousin most of the afternoon and evening.
W came up with a couple of reasons to call and text today (household stuff) then she went to GF's house for the entire evening. She took S with her. I wasn't home anyway.
When I got home she was carrying a notebook with papers in it. I think they are her house listings. I still don't know if she's picturing this as temporary or not.
We talked for a bit. I told her of my day, she talked a little of hers. Not much about hers. She asked about my cousin, our S etc. She really talks to me like I am just a roommate. She just seems comfortable living like this. We're just passing buddies....and she seems perfectly fine with it.
She ended up coming in my room again last night. She said she was cold and thought she would be warmer sleeping next to me. We cuddled for an hour or so, I kissed her neck, she kissed me, and we ML. She stayed the night with me and we laid in bed for a couple of hours this morning. She made a big family breakfast...then went to GF's house. (I really hate the relationship she has with GF). She kissed me goodbye before she left.
All good right?
While she was gone I saw the notebook and peeked inside. She's still planning on going. Emails to her sister (W is so excited about new place), house listings and bank paperwork.
I know I can't control the outcome but this is crazy.
She continues to talk about stuff in our house. Future things here.
I've fought saying anything about her moving i.e. "it won't be your issue" but I really want to.
Her GF relationship is so freaking over the top. If they're not together or texting. W even changed her facebook pic to a pic of her with GF's daughter!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I'm going to a Red Wing's game w/ son tonight. I need to not be here.
Wings game was fun. S had a great time being a nut. His dancing even got him on the scoreboard.
Even with all of that going on, I had a few minutes of that odd crippiling feeling during the game. W used to go to these things with us. If she wasn't there, we would text back and forth. This time, nothing. Her sister of all people texted with me (she was watching the game on TV)
W was fine when I got home. We're roommates again. Roommates who slept together last night. Cuddles this morning and kissed before she went to her GF's house. (That is, the first time she went to GF's today. She was over there a couple of times in between her couple of hours on the phone with her...can you sense my bitterness?)
Now my roomie is back in her room.
I'm starting to realize that she's never really felt the need to hold onto me because she's never felt she could lose me. I know she says she wants to go, but I am really starting to wonder what she would be like if she really felt that I may not be here when she came back. Obviously I haven't detached enough to give her that feeling. It's pretty damn hard to detach from someone who occasionally still sleeps with and kisses me though.
What in the world am I supposed to do? I spend tons of time away. I told her I accept that she is moving out. I have lots of good times without her. The problem seems to be that I am there EVERY time she wants me to be. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Is she walking on me, or am I being a good husband to a wife who is going through a tough time in life?
What in the world am I supposed to do? I spend tons of time away. I told her I accept that she is moving out. I have lots of good times without her. The problem seems to be that I am there EVERY time she wants me to be. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Is she walking on me, or am I being a good husband to a wife who is going through a tough time in life?
Live your life, on your schedule and based on what you want.
What in the world am I supposed to do? I spend tons of time away. I told her I accept that she is moving out. I have lots of good times without her. The problem seems to be that I am there EVERY time she wants me to be. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Is she walking on me, or am I being a good husband to a wife who is going through a tough time in life?
I hear you - I really want to hold onto the good times too and create more of them. But you and I have that in common - we're always here when they want us. Not on our schedules.
I think you (and me) need to give more the feeling of we won't always be here. It's one of the basic counter-intuitive techniques of DB that I personally have avoided. It's the GAL - have a plan one night when they are supposed to be here. 180 - when they expect us to be here, dinner, weekend, whenever that is - DON'T. Be out doing something for us. I think you will really prosper from this technique. Why not try it?
I took the time to read this whole post. I'm hoping for the best for you. My wife is planning on moving out Oct 1. I have no idea what to expect or what to hope for. Best of luck to you EB.
I took the time to read this whole post. I'm hoping for the best for you. My wife is planning on moving out Oct 1. I have no idea what to expect or what to hope for. Best of luck to you EB.
Hi. Welcome. Sorry you're here with the rest of us. I responded on your thread.
As for my sitch, I spent most of the day out of the house yesterday. Worked on my Jeep (I need to get it ready for the new owner. I sold it because I am preparing for financial issues after W moves out). I got out to have pizza and beer with a buddy for a couple of hours too. I left while she was at the grocery store made sure not to leave a note
W and I hugged a little yesterday. She sat with me on the back patio swing and she leaned on me for support after she hit the neighbor's dogs with the car after it ran into the street (dog lived, but is pretty banged up - didn't know this particular neighbor). She even came into "my" room and watched TV with me for about an hour before bed time. She went back to "her" room to sleep.
While on the porch swing, she started talking about the plants in the yard and what she will have to do with them next summer. She wanted her mom to see one of them and I suggested that she take a picture and E-mail it to her. W said her mom would see it the next time she came to visit. What I wanted to say ****"What? Visit here? Why sould your mom visit here? You won't live here! Are you playing a f-ing head game with me or what?"**** What I did say. "Cool. It was just an idea."
Good things are happening, but still no R talk. Still planning on moving as far as I know.
When I saw her bank paperwork though, I did see that she didn't qualify for as much $$ as she wanted too. This may make it more of a challenge for her as we have a pretty nice house in a nice neighborhood. She would have to live in a questionable place with less than high class neighbors.
She doesn't talk at all to me about moving, but I know she talks to her sis and GF about it.
Well be ready for it. If they want out they will find something. Mine is moving into a little tiny apt from our dream house.
It sounds like in your case she is swinging back and forth looking for reactions from you. Testing the waters. I don't which would be better. The agony of them leaving is horrible but there is a part of me that thinks the only way for them to see the light is to move out and see how different may be from what they had envisioned. I'm praying for you.
there is a part of me that thinks the only way for them to see the light is to move out and see how different may be from what they had envisioned.
I think you're right here. The "utopian vision" that they have created of what their life would look like if they were out and independent must be pretty strong. It seems like the only way they will be able to ree through the fog will be to go. Hopefully once they are there they will see it for what it really is.
Thanks for the prayers. I'll add you to my ever growing list too.
On that note, faith has been a great focus for me during all of this. I've had some amazing experiences that I just couldn't explain with anything other than God is letting me know that he is here and aware of our situation. He hasn't "fixed" it to what I have been looking for, but he's shown himself for sure.
Talk is just that - talk. It's not action. Watch her actions, watch your actions. Keep the actions positive.
I know that her talk to me is a lot different than her talk to her GF and sister. When talking to me, she talks about staining the deck next summer. Talking (or E-mailing) to others, she talks about her new place.
Her actions are so confusing. She hugged me good night last night. I kissed her forehead. I was expecting a quick hug, but she held me for quite a while. Then off to "her" room.
Earlier in the day, we texted and I called her on the way home to tell her I would be late getting home tonight (shocker - she was going to GF's house w/S7). She kept me on the phone for a while.
This along with the fact that she watched TV with me last night before bed (she initiated), good night then too, kissed and slept together this weekend, and drank coffee together on the porch swing Sunday all are positives. Still no R talk. Still planning on moving as far as I know.
Back to numb.
She just called me at work just now. She found a place.
She asked me how involved I wanted to be. We talked for nearly an hour. We went over a lot of the same stuff, but with a little different approach. I said I'm trying to be understanding that she feels she needs this. I don't like it, but I understand that she feels she needs it.
We talked a little about the relationship with her GF. She got really defensive made it sound as if I just don't want her to have friends. I took quite an exception to that and clarified a little, but kept my cool. (She's VERY protective of the GF) W said she thought I had "gotten over it." I told her that out of respect for her, I just hadn't brought it up, but of course it still was an issue that someone else is more significant to my W than I am. I also said that I understand where you are at and how and why it is the way that it is.
We rehashed a bunch of things and she, as she has done before, said that she has told me things that she has never said. Finally she admitted "maybe I said that to my GF, or IC, but I meant to tell you." She said she appreciates me. She loves me. She would be "heartbroken" if she was in what she thought was a happy marriage and this happened to her and if someone else was suddenly chosen as #1 over her.
I told her I still didn't know what the plan was. Is she still planning this as temporary? She said that's the goal, but can't make any promises because she knows she isn't happy here. It's difficult to promise that she'll be back.
She still wants to run her business from our house. She'll be in our house every day. She's mostly looking forward to redecorating her new place.
We talked about a lot more, who pays for what, previous friendships, how she was so unhappy in our marriage and that's how GF became #1 to her, but overall she's moving.
The more I told her I would be supportive the less defensive she got and eventually started crying.
I'm numb again. Not falling apart. Just numb.
Man you and I are in the same boat. Every day we seem to be following the same script!!!
Numb is the best way to describe it. I don't know any other way. At least it doesn't hurt AS bad when you're numb.
At least it doesn't hurt AS bad when you're numb.
True.
I just want to go to sleep.
Strange to hear W rehash old things that just aren't true. Some things I can change. Some things she is just holding onto and putting really odd meaning to. I'm so sick of these same things popping back up. She really feels she is a victim here. I don't want her to have friends? NO! I don't want her to have a friend that takes prescidence over me. That's true! I don't argue that at all.
Now her and GF will have a clubhouse.
It is easier for them to reinforce what they are thinking when they dig up the old stuff. Thinking may be the wrong word, maybe feeling is the right one. Not a lot of thinking going on.
Everyone says to be patient....I guess when you have no other option it makes it easier.
REmind yourself - it's only to give her space. You acknowledge that what works is accepting and letting her make her choices. She gets less defensive and more open. Keep trying this.
It will still hurt. Keep your hurt for yourself to work through. I'm trying to remind myself daily "My H has not divorced me. He is here quite a lot. I need to give him space to feel lonesome without me - and not be able to blame me for making him miserable. I need him to have space to make himself miserable! also, I need the space. I need to have time alone without conflicts, issues, chasing, blaming - Just making me happy."
It is so hard but we can do it. I also freaked out when H started showing me bigger places he wants to move to. I remember the positive - hey, I'm in the house. It's hard for him to be in a tiny studio apt. I have it ok."
Keep reminding yourself she isn't gone. She hasn't filed papers. There is still lots of hope.
I kept busy working outside most of last night. W asked if I wanted dinner. I thanked her but passed.
AFter S went to bed, I came in and checked on her. I asked if she was OK and she looked like she was going to cry. I wrapped my arms around her and kissed, forehead, and said you just looked like you needed a hug.
She started crying and telling me that she was so sorry for all of this. I didn't respond. She held me tight and didn't let go when I did. She said she feels like such a horrible person. I didn't respond.
She let go do blow her nose, but sat behind me on "her" bed instead of coming back to my arms. I asked if she wanted me to stay with her or leave her alone. She said "whatever you want." I said "I asked that YOU want." (this has been an issue for us...she never says what SHE wants). She said she was fine either way and I calmly, almost lovingly responded "I don't really want to be where I am not actively wanted anymore. You know where I will be if you want me."
It's true. I am sick of feeling unwanted.
I didn't hear from her the rest of the night.
This morning, I left the house later than usual. She was up with S when I left. She was cordial but distant. Very little interaction.
I had a funny feeling to call her about 9:30 this morning. I never call her anymore. I called and told her that I was just checking to see that she was OK. She said this is really nerve-racking, and told me that she truly appreciated my call.
She told me that she was just leaving to go to the realtor's office.
It's so weird. I honestly feel like I have been the husband that only a fool would leave recently. Her version of the past has just painted me into something that I am not. A lot of it isn't even accurate to what I was then.
Numbness is fading. I am tired.
She has never had the fear of losing me. She almost seems to have the attitude that if someone else would make me happy than so be it. Looking back, it seems that she has been detached for quite a while. Her crying on me last night seemed not like she was happy that it was me there. I could have been anyone. Just someone to give her a hug.
I feel your pain....I'm getting ready to send mine an email saying I am starting the D process as I have to stand up for myself & our kids. What is the phenonomen with these ladies???
I'm not certain how I would feel about having her move out, but then come back home whenever she wanted. I think I would establish a boundary - if she moves out, she needs to find a place in her apartment to work. Let me guess - you won't be allowed a key to her apartment to just walk in whenever you want?
In my opinion, now is the perfect time for you to cut the cord. She bears this responsibility at this point. You are there for her, you have expressed your feelings but not pressured.
However, you even said that you have been a husband no one would leave RECENTLY. Maybe she's not sure if it'll stick, and you're just trying to get her to stay? You bear a huge responsibility here to your wife - that you will be this kind of husband forever.
Anyway, I would stop calling, texting, the hugging/kissing. I know it feels like the most unnatural thing in the world, and she'll probably react angrily/coldly, but the response simply is, "If you want to go or need space, I'm letting you go. If you decide you still want to be my wife, and want to be in this family, then we'll take appropriate steps at that point."
Then, go.
I kept busy working outside most of last night. W asked if I wanted dinner. I thanked her but passed.
AFter S went to bed, I came in and checked on her. I asked if she was OK and she looked like she was going to cry. I wrapped my arms around her and kissed, forehead, and said you just looked like you needed a hug.
She started crying and telling me that she was so sorry for all of this. I didn't respond. She held me tight and didn't let go when I did. She said she feels like such a horrible person. I didn't respond.
She let go do blow her nose, but sat behind me on "her" bed instead of coming back to my arms. I asked if she wanted me to stay with her or leave her alone. She said "whatever you want." I said "I asked that YOU want." (this has been an issue for us...she never says what SHE wants). She said she was fine either way and I calmly, almost lovingly responded "I don't really want to be where I am not actively wanted anymore. You know where I will be if you want me."
It's true. I am sick of feeling unwanted.
I didn't hear from her the rest of the night.
This morning, I left the house later than usual. She was up with S when I left. She was cordial but distant. Very little interaction.
I had a funny feeling to call her about 9:30 this morning. I never call her anymore. I called and told her that I was just checking to see that she was OK. She said this is really nerve-racking, and told me that she truly appreciated my call.
She told me that she was just leaving to go to the realtor's office.
It's so weird. I honestly feel like I have been the husband that only a fool would leave recently. Her version of the past has just painted me into something that I am not. A lot of it isn't even accurate to what I was then.
Numbness is fading. I am tired.
She has never had the fear of losing me. She almost seems to have the attitude that if someone else would make me happy than so be it. Looking back, it seems that she has been detached for quite a while. Her crying on me last night seemed not like she was happy that it was me there. I could have been anyone. Just someone to give her a hug.
Hi EB,
Your sitch is very close to mine. My W has said some of the exact same things to me as she is moving out (i.e. "I love you so much"). It is strange. I have got some good advice; most of it is just stay quiet. Don't interact unless they initiate, then keep it short. I have gotten pretty good at not initiated contact, I still have a problem keeping it short when she does come to me. It does help.
Take care.
On one hand, I agree that I should set boundaries. On the other, I'm watching my W fall apart before my eyes.
She's not being an angry, hurtful person. She's telling me that she needs to experience independence. She left her parents house and moved directly in with me as a teenager.
I have set these lines int he sand before and all it did was reinforce her idea that I am a selfish person who didn't care about her needs. When I have told her that I am her friend and truly want her to be happy, it starts to bring her back around. Drawing the line ends up making a you against me situation where being her friend and supporting her kind of puts us on the same team.
She even wants me tom be involved with her new place. I don't know if I can do that, but it seems like a good thing that it's what she wants.
This whole thing is mental. She loves me, can kiss me, sleep with me, ML with me, but can't live with me or open up to me.
With that said, she still says her overall goal is to come back home in the end. (no promises though).
Hi EB,
Your sitch is very close to mine. My W has said some of the exact same things to me as she is moving out (i.e. "I love you so much"). It is strange. I have got some good advice; most of it is just stay quiet. Don't interact unless they initiate, then keep it short. I have gotten pretty good at not initiated contact, I still have a problem keeping it short when she does come to me. It does help.
Take care.
Thanks for the feedback. I've checked in over at your place a couple of times. We do have a lot of similarities.
I have initiated some contact, but only a little. I have feared that if I left her completely alone with her tainted memories she would always see me as the guy that she has turned me into in her head. If I can overwrite those with a little compassion and warmth I want to.
I have gotten a LOT better at keeping it short and just staying quiet. I mean, who wouldn't want to respons when she says she's so sorry. The thoughts of, "well then don't do this" come to mind. I didn't respond though. I think she just needed a hug.
"Needs to experience independence?" It takes tearing apart a family to experience independence? Why not take a week and go hiking in Europe?
So, because you establish respect for yourself and appropriate boundaries, you're a selfish person? I got the same response from my W, but when I stood by the boundaries in a firm but appropriate manner, that argument sort of whithered on the vine. There is a difference between being a jerk, and being a strong MAN. Being strong and kind doesn't mean you don't wish for her happiness.
I'm not sure you're ready to hear what I have to say, so I'll leave it alone for now, but I suggest you mark this conversation, and come back in a few months. I honestly hope I'm wrong, and you are one of the >1% where being there makes a difference. You described a woman who is shut off - she can give you her body, but not her heart/mind/soul.
Again, I still wonder how damaging your family to get independence accomplishes anything, but I'm a glass half full kind of guy, and my hope is that it opens her eyes, and you all come together in an amazing way.
I'll simply suggest that you be kind and loving, but draw a line - if you don't like the word boundary. If she moves out, no more ML, no more money beyond what is agreed on, no helping her move out, none of that. If she truly wants independence, give it to her.
You need to make your own decisions, but I've been through the same exact thing. W said she needed to move out and accomplish things on her own, "be free", gain her independence. She even dismissed our divorce, and refused to do a dissolution - saying she wanted to be friends and work on things - said I was "changed", and a wonderful dad, and so smart and capable. She started dating OM less than two months later.
I am glad to see that you have kept your responses short and sweet, and not brought up the relationship - I think you are on the right track. As long as it's her coming to you, keep being genuine, kind - desirable!
I wish you best of luck!
She even wants me tom be involved with her new place. I don't know if I can do that, but it seems like a good thing that it's what she wants.
I would not do this. This is the place she got to get away from you and the family. This is her place to be alone. Do not show your children that this place is acceptable by acquiescing to her desires (at least in the beginning).
Just my 2 cents.
She's telling me that she needs to experience independence.
Then give her that. With independence comes all the repsonsiblity.
I have set these lines int he sand before and all it did was reinforce her idea that I am a selfish person who didn't care about her needs.
So your boundaries which should be about your well-being are selfish? What are some examples of your "lines in the sand?" How did you phrase them?
When I have told her that I am her friend and truly want her to be happy,
great!
Drawing the line ends up making a you against me situation where being her friend and supporting her kind of puts us on the same team.
Boundaries are about behaviors someone does that you will not allow to happen to you.
"When you do this______________, I feel _______________. I will not allow that to happen anymore, if you continue to do it then I will _____________." It's not personal, it's not mean, it's healthy and it's productive. Think thru it.
"Needs to experience independence?" It takes tearing apart a family to experience independence? Why not take a week and go hiking in Europe?
There is a difference between being a jerk, and being a strong MAN.
I agree. I'm trying to find that balance.
I'll simply suggest that you be kind and loving, but draw a line - if you don't like the word boundary. If she moves out, no more ML, no more money beyond what is agreed on, no helping her move out, none of that. If she truly wants independence, give it to her.
Everything you say makes sense. She doesn't though. She
wants me to be a part of this with her. huh? what?
EB is confused by this.This is hard for me. It seems like a good opportunity to show her that I want her to be happy and her needs are important (keep in mind, she said she plans on coming home and use this place as investment property). By refusing to be a part of this with her would only separate us further. She would see it as me "teaching her a lesson."
If she asks too much of me I have no probmem saying no though. I have already said that I can accept this. I don't have to like it. And don't expect me to get excited and go pick out paint colors at Home Depot with you.
Whatever I don't do with her though, she will just have GF do with her.
Thanks for all of your feedback. I truly appreciate it.
So your boundaries which should be about your well-being are selfish? What are some examples of your "lines in the sand?" How did you phrase them?
She rarely asks anything of me. She wants to do her own thing and doesn't seem to care what I do. When there was a guy posting stuff on her FB page I told her this was unacceptible and was an insult to me as I am still her husband. She threw a fit, but eventually told me she saw this was disrespectful and asked the guy to stop posting.
My boundaries have really not been about what I will and will not do, but more of what I will and will not accept. Every time she told me she was moving out I would tell her that she has not tried to fix our marriage. She told me to stop trying. I refused. I told her that I am sorry she feels this way, but she will never get validation from me that D is OK. especially without trying to fix anything.
This is what generally sent her into hysterics. I would tell her that I cannot stop her from going, but she will not get validation from me. For some reason, she really seems to need this from me.
Boundaries are about behaviors someone does that you will not allow to happen to you.
"When you do this______________, I feel _______________. I will not allow that to happen anymore, if you continue to do it then I will _____________." It's not personal, it's not mean, it's healthy and it's productive. Think thru it.
You're right. She's so damn illogical though. I have worded things very similarly in the past and her response has been a ton of anger with her yelling "this isn't all about you," or "stop trying to make this about you" and even "It doesn't matter what you want." Followed of course by her acting like all was fine the next day.
I guess I'll have to contunie to do these things even if she does fly off the handle. Just for my own self respect and sanity.
OH MY LORD.....that is my situation nearly identically.... how ever she is not quite that affectionate to me in the tough times right now......
I have been trying to live by DB because I believe in it but my W says I am on a roller coaster of emotions I am...so has far to many secrets and EOA and well as A's for my to trust so easily and without transparency, I am on a roller coaster.
But we get along so well....so confused....
Welcome. Sorry that you find yourself here.
Have you read Divorce Remedy as well as Divorce Busting?
I have been going through this for nearly a year. She hasn't been affectionate to me through the whole thing. Not even close. Lots of "Ups & Downs" if you will.
"so has far to many secrets and EOA and well as A's for my to trust so easily and without transparency" You kind of lost me here sorry. What's EOA?
You should start a thread. I'll be sure to keep in touch with a fellow Michigander.
I guess I'll have to contunie to do these things even if she does fly off the handle. Just for my own self respect and sanity.
Hah, it's sad that I have stories to relate for so much of this. I can remember my first boundary - when W decided to move out, get an apartment, go to school full-time, work full-time, and start hooking up. She called me asking for me to give her an extra day over the holidays. I was literally shaking, but I said "No."
She started yelling, I'll take you for everything you're worth, I'm filing divorce tomorrow, blah blah blah. I said, "I'm sorry, you're angry, but I've already lost 50% of my children's lives, I'm not losing any more. When you're ready to have a reasonable conversation, you can call me back." And I hung up.
An hour later, she called me back, sobbing, and talking about how she was so busy that she just felt like she was missing out. I explained to her that I could certainly understand, I hated it when the kids weren't with me. I then allowed her to SWAP a day, not GET a day.
You are absolutely right - she needs your validation. My kids told W that a woman was interested in me, and she wanted me to date her. She said D9 "needs to see you date" - her reasoning? Because she wanted me to date while married so it would excuse her affair.
Stick with it - if you are being fair. I think your approach is sound. You aren't required to validate her - you have to let her make her own decisions.
The reason why she flies off the handle is because she's mad she's not getting her own way - the next day is fine because when she gets over being mad, she has to see that you aren't trying to control her, you are establishing reasonable but firm boundaries, and you are sticking with them, not waffling.
Good for you! I know, I know, I know where you are - I can remember it clearly, and my one regret is not sticking by my guns every single time.
have worded things very similarly in the past and her response has been a ton of anger with her yelling "this isn't all about you," or "stop trying to make this about you" and even "It doesn't matter what you want." Followed of course by her acting like all was fine the next day.
"I agree this isn't about me. It's about your behavior, this is all about things you have control over."
You should start a thread. I'll be sure to keep in touch with a fellow Michigander.
FYI - mid-Michigan girl here, too. I'm in CA now, but grew up in Dow Chem, USA and lived there til partway thru college.
FYI - mid-Michigan girl here, too. I'm in CA now, but grew up in Dow Chem, USA and lived there til partway thru college.
I started in the north and worked south slowly. Spent a few years in Mt. P (in your old neck of the woods), then came down just outside of "The D."
I've kept up fairly closely with your sitch. Good things happening over there. I love to read the good things. It's like fuel to keep me going. The 'steamy' things are fun to see too
I was literally shaking, but I said "No."
She started yelling, I'll take you for everything you're worth, I'm filing divorce tomorrow, blah blah blah. I said, "I'm sorry, you're angry, but I've already lost 50% of my children's lives, I'm not losing any more. When you're ready to have a reasonable conversation, you can call me back." And I hung up.
This is amazing, JF! EB and I both need a lesson from you. EB, as you know my H flies off the handle almost daily, then acts as if nothing is wrong! I loooooooooove JF's advice. I'm going to literally print it out and carry it with me until the time the volcano explodes - and it will - and I need a statement to help me walk away.
Brilliant. And it worked. EB, I suggest you do the same. Memorize the lines like you were going for an OScar! It may work, and it may not, but hey, part of DB is finding out what works and doesn't so why not try?
I will go get DR....I am sure it is just equally as good as DB.
EOA, Emotional Online Affair.
All I am trying to do right now is be a good person and keep this roller coaster of emotions leveled out. She often acts as though i am being unreasonable with these emotions.
Let me ask you how you or any other SP would be after 6 A's and OEA's, and having just read the notes from one of them. I think it is reasonable however, I do realize it isn't going to help our relationship.
EB is just a bad man sometimes.
I walked in just as she was changing yesterday. With all of the confidence in the world, I sat on the edge of "her" bed, grabbed her and started kissing her stomach. (her shirt was off) She kissed my mouth. I pulled her on the bed and we just kissed and talked for a while.
She talked about how surreal this is. She put a bid on that house today. She said she loves me and is so sorry that "she is going through this." She said she can't imagine how I must feel or how she would feel in my shoes. She said I have been amazing through this and how she feels so much more comfortable with me recently.
I told her that I have put a great deal of effort into trying to figure out how she must feel and that I am sorry she is going through it too. I told her that we will do much better with eachother if we did try to think of the other's perspective more often.
It was very playful with some serious talk mixed in. She really seemed to like it.
She had been getting ready to leave so the kissing and talk didn't go any further.
She asked if I wanted to see the place that she was bidding on. I told her no.
She left. She was supposed to leave S's booster seat when she left (State law mandates boosters until 8 here). I called her cell phone to ask where the seat was. She forgot to leave it, because she was 'distracted.' Hee He.
She came home a few hours later. She gave me a hug and held on to me for a while. I didn't pursue any further.
Fast forward to this morning.
I went in S's room and kissed him good bye as I always do. W called me into "her" room and reached out for a hug when I walked in. (I have walked right by "her" room without a word for months).
I kissed her cheek. She kissed my lips. A bunch. She held the hug for a long time. I said "have a good day" and so did she. I left leaving her wanting more.
Moral of the story? I don't freaking know.
I am sure she's still moving out, but at least she's seeing me in a different light. She is seeing this as something that "she" is going through right now as opposed to "me" being an A-hole.
Through all of that, I still don't have much for expectations believe it or not.
This is similiar to the way my W was acting when she left 2 weeks ago. All I can say is to play it cool from here on out. Things changed immediately when she moved out (probably in most part because I began to heed the advice of robx, Coach, Puppy, et al.). It was a scary time for me, but I learned I can handle myself on my own pretty well.
I started feeling better shortly after she moved out. I think that is in part what scared me. I thought "If I am able to handle this as well as I am; she must be on cloud nine." But I am finding that is not the case. Hang in there.
Thanks for the feedback Tristan.
I have been wondering how things would be after she goes. From the people that I have talked to, including a female a cousin of mine who did the same thing, it's likely that she will feel freed and excited for a short while then it may sink in. Maybe not.
You're right though. If I have been able to get through this, I should be able to get through anything.
I'll have to catch up on your sitch. I'm interested to see what can happen a little while in.
FYI...my cousin was gone for 4 months before she went back home.
Tristan - I just saw your update from last night.
YAHOO!!! Good for you!!!
I can only hope for such a turn of events
I'm really happy for you. I imagine that you're nervous as hell, but I'm truly excited for you.
EB..what an ordeal. I'm not getting the affection but probably could if I initiated it. I want to distance myself because I think that is what is good for my sitch.
I have the same feeling...I've made it this far....
She is all over my FB page right now. I have gotten five notifications in the last 5 minutes that she commented on stuff there.
Hope you can keep it going. My wife and I went through a few of these rollercoasters before it got really bad. I didn't know about DB/DR and the board here. I might have kept it going had I known better. Best of luck.
I've been doing this too long to expect it to "last."
I'm fully aware that she is moving out soon. This just helps to leave her with a positive impression of me before she goes.
I asked my W to go out to dinner tonight, a gesture and to see if she might open up at all. I didnt provoke or indicate that I was looking for that at all. I was simply in a good mood taking care of myself and showing her the genuine interest in her that I actually have.
However if this M starts to repair and she can't meet my terms, just as she expects certain things from me, then I believe I am in a place where I can be alright on my own.
Missing my 19 and 16 yr old would be ridiculously hard though.
Here is another piece of the puzzle that I will add...
We can't afford to change our minds right now, I cant imagaine either one of being able to afford a household on our own...let alone that we would need another car...or two....how does she suppose this will happen?
Well its time for me to go upstairs and get another dose of DB for tonight.
What if my W knows I am reading this.... I dont discuss it with her at all.... and she doesnt ask..... ??
But there really wasnt much of a way for me to have the privacy I need to read as often as I do/ have... This is my 2nd time thru DB, and I need to gind a copy of DR becuase our library doesnt have one.
I did my first year of college in Mt. P.
I was born near the Big D and slowly worked my way north. Then I followed a boy to TN for the rest of college, then out to CA for grad school, married a "Californiano" and got rooted out here.
I don't mind, really. I have the ocean to look at instead of the lakes, and while I do miss snow, I don't miss it for as long as Michigan has it. The year I moved out of MI, it snowed on my birthday. In late April.
I miss blueberries, though, and turning leaves and apple cider. And hot chocolate on snowy days, and the particular feather-soft, quiet of dusk during a fresh snowfall.
*Californiano - descendents of Spanish settlers in Alta California before it became a US territory. I tease H about being a conquistador. His ancestors provided military security for the old missions out here.
I miss blueberries, though, and turning leaves and apple cider. And hot chocolate on snowy days, and the particular feather-soft, quiet of dusk during a fresh snowfall.
I'm a native Californian - these things are foreign to me. Blueberries are the expensive fruit at the store. Turning leaves are only something you see in books, and snowy days are found on rare and expensive ski vacations.
lol
I can feel and imagine the roller coaster of emotions that you are on. As wonderful as your positing sounded, it also sound rather bleak....I am afraid that something identical is happening here. W and I went to dinner and got along all nite, she thanked me for taking her out etc.... everything is nice...but not a ton of indication that she is changing her mind. She is still very very secretive and hides her feelings and other stuff as well.
I am happy that you had a wonderful experience EB. I hope for you that I will result in many more days like this, and end in a positive note when it's all done and said.
I on the other hand (even though the news is only 9 days old) am not feeling quite so promising.
Doormat - I still don't know a lot about the details of your sitch. Can you put some more details on your thread? When did this come about? Anything that triggered it? How have you come out of this before? What are the 180s that you are doing? How long together etc?
From what I gather, you may benefit from the book No More Mr. Nice Guy (Robert Glover). I think it would be worth checking out for you.
Yeah - if losing your W isn't hard enough, the financial and kid part of this make it all a real nice package deal huh?
I can feel and imagine the roller coaster of emotions that you are on. As wonderful as your positing sounded, it also sound rather bleak....I am afraid that something identical is happening here. W and I went to dinner and got along all nite, she thanked me for taking her out etc.... everything is nice...but not a ton of indication that she is changing her mind. She is still very very secretive and hides her feelings and other stuff as well.
I am happy that you had a wonderful experience EB. I hope for you that I will result in many more days like this, and end in a positive note when it's all done and said.
I on the other hand (even though the news is only 9 days old) am not feeling quite so promising.
I wish that I knew 9 days in what I know now.
Don't try to talk her out of this! Tell you want to work through this, but DO NOT beg and plead. Do not explain to her why she can't do this. DO NOT force relationship talk. It's the oddest feeling in the world to ignore the damn elephant in the room, but you have to for now.
One mistake that I made is that I wanted to address everything. How could I not have. Obviously we can't fix things by ignoring them. We can't ignore everything long term. Keep in mind though that this isn't long term. This is the road, not the destination.
It got to the point that my W didn't want to talk to me at all because all I wanted to do is address things. It was a bad association for her.
Your W went on a date with you? That's awesome. She THANKED YOU? That's really awesome!! Don't screw it up by pushing R talk. She's going to hide her feelings for now. Expect that. Accept that. It's OK for now. Just keep in mind that this is all for now. She's secretive and hides feelings because she knows that you feel differently, will try to tall her why her feelings/actions are wrong, and she doesn't want to feel judged or criticized. She will open up when she feels comfortable, not a second before. You can't fix it, but you can screw it up. If you try to push, it will only push her farther away. It's just not going to be "fair" to you for a while.
Patience. I have been going through this for nearly a year...and we had the picture perfect marriage. We were the ones that everyone in the family talked about as the perfect couple. Point is, it will take a long time. Look at your positives. Get a life. Dont' force talk. Dont' get clingy. Breathe.
Back to me. I am afterall selfish and self-centered. At least that's what I have been told
I sold my Jeep yesterday. W knows that I loved the Jeep and that I had to sell it since she's moving ($$$).
After work I went to my Grandma's house. My cousin and I are cleaning it out. G'ma moved in with my Dad a couple of years ago and her house was full of junk. (She's a hoarder. Her house is nasty). Cousin and I have been cleaning it out in the evenings for weeks. It keeps me out of the house.
I called W to let her know I would not be home for dinner. She thanked me to letting her know. She seemed excited to hear from me. I kept it very short and asked to talk to S to ask him about his day.
I got home at S's bed time gave him a quick 'Good Night' and spent the rest of the night cleaning out the Jeep since it is getting picked up today. W stuck her head out and talked to me a little. She kept it about the car sale, but seemed like she wanted to talk about more. I think she's feeling pretty guilty that I sold it.
After I got myself ready for bed W asked me to scratch her back, something we used to do for eachother a lot, but hadn't for months until recently. I did, but declined when she offered to get me. I didn't initiate any conversation.
Later when I went to bed, W sent me a text (from "her" room). She had taken S into her room since they both have sniffels and she had a vaporizer in there. Her text said that she had S and closed the door for the vaporizer. It was not to keep me out. Huh. That was actually thoughtful.
I went in and hugged S and W G'night.
Same this morning. Went in to hug S and W reached for a hug too. I kissed her forehead and a quick peck in the lips...then I dashed off into the dark of the morning (dramatic eh?)
I want to leave her with just enough to miss me when she's gone.
I did my first year of college in Mt. P.
I was born near the Big D and slowly worked my way north. Then I followed a boy to TN for the rest of college, then out to CA for grad school, married a "Californiano" and got rooted out here.
I don't mind, really. I have the ocean to look at instead of the lakes, and while I do miss snow, I don't miss it for as long as Michigan has it. The year I moved out of MI, it snowed on my birthday. In late April.
I miss blueberries, though, and turning leaves and apple cider. And hot chocolate on snowy days, and the particular feather-soft, quiet of dusk during a fresh snowfall.
W and I did schooling in Mt. P.
I love the water. Ocean, lakes, it's all good.
I'm looking forward to the apple orchards next month. We generally go as a family for a hayride through the orchards in October. We get cider and cake donuts. Mmmm. I wonder how that will work this year. W may want to go all together. Maybe she'll take S and go w/ her GF's family.
I've wanted to get out of Michigan for a long time. This was really the "trigger" that started this. W went along with the idea of moving for 12 years. When we put the house on the market though she decided she wouldn't go through with it. After leading me on the whole time.
I've realized that compared to my marriage, where I live just isn't as important as I once thought. There are a lot of things I do like here. I'll just have to travel a lot. Especially in winter.
I'd like to make it to the west coast some day.
W and I did schooling in Mt. P.
I love the water. Ocean, lakes, it's all good.
I'm looking forward to the apple orchards next month. We generally go as a family for a hayride through the orchards in October. We get cider and cake donuts. Mmmm. I wonder how that will work this year. W may want to go all together. Maybe she'll take S and go w/ her GF's family.
I've wanted to get out of Michigan for a long time. This was really the "trigger" that started this. W went along with the idea of moving for 12 years. When we put the house on the market though she decided she wouldn't go through with it. After leading me on the whole time.
I've realized that compared to my marriage, where I live just isn't as important as I once thought. There are a lot of things I do like here. I'll just have to travel a lot. Especially in winter.
I'd like to make it to the west coast some day.
If you drive from Midland to Fashion Square Mall in Saginaw, there's a place called Farmer Baynes (?) or Bayne's Apple Farm. It's on the right hand side of the road before you make the big left to go to the mall. They have it all: cider, caramel apples, apple fritters, peanut brittle, pies - but the best things ever are these sour cream cake doughnuts they have, either plain or rolled in cinnamon sugar. They don't have holes, so they're about the size, shape and heft of a baseball.
If you're ever there, eat one for me!
And out on M-20 is the u-pick place where we'd go for blueberries. There's one particular row where the bushes are taller than your head and the berries are the size of quarters. You strap a bucket to your waist, bend a branch down, lightly stroke and the berries fall straight into the bucket. Our top take was 26 quarts in one go.
And sweet corn. Illini X-tra Sweet. I've never found its equal. I even ordered seed to grow it out here.
Summary of recent events.
W his kissed me a lot in the past week or so. We've slept in the same bed together a couple of times, ML a couple of times, made out like teens, and kissed her good night last night (on the stomach and lips).
She was very receptive.
I am sure that she still plans on moving out.
I think she'll miss me more when she is gone now though.
Don't worry about the moving out/not moving out thing. Just keep doing what you're doing.
Just think of it like she needs space. You are going to continue to give her space. Don't think of it like a D because it's not for now.
During these times of living apart from H, I remember what my father always said, "How can I miss you if you don't go away?" lol
I also sometimes think of it like a retreat for myself - I'm getting space for myself as well.
I fully expect her to move. I think she feels she HAS to. That may be a catalyst to get things better. She can't "miss" me until I'm not around her every day.
In a weird way, I am kind of looking forward to her going. She can see that what's she's been "missing...out there" isn't so special. I will be able to go home to piece and quiet.
It's just that now she'll have something to think about all alone in her new place.
I am not getting that affection like you....though I think I would be more confused if I was. My wife has made that exact comment about needing to miss me. We'll see if that works or not.
FWIW, I *did* miss H. Bitterly. It took a few months to get past the hurt and anger. But after that, I missed him horribly. And I know he missed me, too.
I can't guarantee that will happen with everyone, of course. YMMV
I don't know if it will work, but I know she'll need to miss you/me before she'll want to come home.
Confusing? Very. I've stopped trying to figure it out as muh as I used to though. I'm just going with it knowing that it's temporaty either way. It helps....a little.
Good to hear that you missed him. At times it seems like W could NEVER miss me. She has been so full of anger and resentment (prior to recent weeks).
It's hard to believe that she could ever want me again during those times.
Okay..... the details have been asked for....on Oct 21st we will have been M for 20yrs. I went to a therapist like in yr 5 to deal with issues of abuse from my parents. At about that time, i pulled from her for about a yr, immediately after our first born. Then things were great for several years when she had her first A. This was a pretty serious event. He was D his W and wanted a permanent relationship with mine. She found out that he was crazy (nutso) and without the million details that ended...but there was a lot of mud thru that. We did seek help then too. I went consistantly she went randomly. many years of trust issues and other small A some were not PA, but she moved out once and the guy that help move her into her new place and buy her furniture in now talking to her again. (I did confront him and his wife the first time. (his wife had no idea - and i don't know if she does now).
We had to girls 16-19, we both have good relationships with both.
Her is better with them, but mine is not bad by any stretch...
She has agreed (tonight) to go to an art fair with me...it all seems fine....there just isn't any affection from her at all.
I guess I'll keep taking care of me (working out, reading, time for me) and make sure that bad habits I had go away, and the right things get repeated, (ignoring conversation, not taking advantage of doing things with her, thanking her when it calls for it, demanding respect when deserved, not leaving things around for others to do, do what needs to be done and don't expect a round of applause for doing it, bringing her favorite cheese popcorn home, buying her favorite cookies etc....
@Doormat - it would be good to post all of this on your thread so the people that stop over there can help with all of the information that you have laid out here.
As for me, I need to document how odd my life is.
W called me this afternoon to tell me the buyer of my Jeep came and picked it up. I didn't ask her to, she just did.
I called on my way home from work to ask if she still needed me to stop at the store. Nope. She was already out at the store with S.
I beat them home and saw 4 house listings sitting on the desk. !@#$%^#$%^
W and S got home. I was distant. W asked if I hated her today. I said no. She said she didn't feel well and hugged me.
A lot. Then kissed me again.
Huh? Looking at listings? Concerned if I'm mad at her. Hugging and kissing? Ummm...am I missing something here?
News flash - she's conflicted.
And conflicted people, they act.... conflicted. <grin>
Take the good and keep it going. Let the bad slide off your back. You've got some good things going on right now, so keep it the heck up.
I love the women's perspective.
I'm trying to make sure that I show interest and lead without pursuing too much. It's a hard balance to find. She's actually initiated some of this once I got the ball rolling. I like it! I still expect her to go...at least for a while, but in the mean time, I like it!
Conflicted is a word I've used a lot going through this.
I just bet you like it! Heck, I'm jealous.
I do like it, but it's weird to wonder how she can do the boyfriend/girlfriend stuff when she's apparently not sure if she's in love with me. Hmmm...I though that women needed to feel connected before they wanted to go there.
Girls are hard to understand. I am glad that there are women on this board to help "translate." I have a hard time speaking female sometimes.
Well, with conflicted people - not sure this is specific to women - you have to understand that you'll be hearing from whichever side of 'conflicted' is on top at the time.
If it's the "I'm outta here" side, you get real estate listings. If it's the "But (maybe) I (still) love him and dayum he's hot" side, you get kisses and LM.
And yes, it can turn on a dime. Never said it was easy to deal with, but that's about how it goes.
Dude, conflicted is way better than I hate you and will never touch you or live with you again. One way of lookin at it at least.
So I should sleep with her best GF and it will fix it all?
See, I told you I couldn't speak female
Dude, conflicted is way better than I hate you and will never touch you or live with you again. One way of lookin at it at least.
Damn Straight!
Kind of a take it and like it attitude. Works for me!
it can turn on a dime. Never said it was easy to deal with, but that's about how it goes.
You just summed up my whole thread in less than two sentences!
So I should sleep with her best GF and it will fix it all?
Only if you feed each other chocolate at the same time. Sheesh. How many times do I have to say this??
(giggling at my kb)
My goal has been to make sure I don't give her any reasons to want to turn to the dark side. I'm really trying to be as good of a guy as I can be.
(I damn near bought her a coffee maker for her new place that I saw on sale today. I couldn't bring myself to do it though)
So I should sleep with her best GF and it will fix it all?
Only if you feed each other chocolate at the same time. Sheesh. How many times do I have to say this??
(giggling at my kb)
My male to female dictionary wonders...dark chocolate or milk chocolate? I say dark. It's sweeter.
Wait...I'm out of her GF's league. I could do better.
Just checked in at Breakaway's thread. Dia - you and your friends are killing me this week!
Met with lingerie in the kitchen? Sex and chocolate? You guys need to have a talk with my W!
FWIW, dark chocolate all the way, and buy the good stuff, not Hershey's. I believe Lindt makes a bar that comes in a cardstock wrapper and consists of individual pieces about the size of your thumbnail that are perfect for placing in your lover's mouth.
Don't go for almonds, toffee or other crunchies even if your W likes these as the crunching sound tends to be a mood spoiler and Almond Roca leave MAJOR crumbs in the bed.
A tub of good, dark chocolate frosting is perfect on strawberries or anything that vaguely resembles a strawberry. The frosting is better than hot fudge or chocolate syrup b/c the mess is more controllable. Frosting doesn't drip or run.
To set the stage, arrange the strawberries on a plate or a tray with the frosting in the middle, then leave the plate on the bed. Light a few candles. Etc.
There, +3 to female communication skills. <grin>
Edit: Oh, and nix on the coffee maker, no matter how cheap. Giving her that (or any other housewarming gift) is tantamount to saying "F you and get the he77 out of here."
!@#$@$%#$%^$#%^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well...the playfulness was fun while it lasted.
We ended up having a nice little family evening for a bit. S, W and I sitting around the backyard firepit. It was nice. I started the fire and W came out all on her own and sat next to me.
A little while later, the phone rang and she ran inside. Spent quite a while in there. Came out and....it was her BFF GF of course. The one who has taken the place of the OM in our relationship. W doesn't get that GF is the OM. And guess what, GF just got her realestate license! Yep..SHE's W's realtor.
W WENT INSIDE FROM OUR FAMILY EVENING TOGETHER AFTER HUGGING AND KISSING ON ME TO DEAL WITH HER NEW HOUSE SITUATION!
I set a boundary. I told her that I felt this was very disrespectful. (I also said, freaking great. You wonder why I have an issue with your GF, see her as the OM? And now you have her looking for houses for you?)
She went off, but I stood my ground. This is just too much of a slap in the face to me.
How in the hell can people flip it on and off like this? If I hadn't said anything was she just going to come back and hang out like all was normal? WTF?
More blah this morning.
I noticed that her "book mark" that was sitting on the coffee table was her divorce lawyer's business card. After feeling disrespected from last night, I really couldn't let that go. This, the real estate listings that have set out, and the printed articles about being trapped in your marriage that are on the bookshelf.
I told her how disrespectful this was. Obviously this led to R talk and I heard the same crap again. I heard about times that we went out with her friends (where she completely ditched me with strangers)and I wasn't happy about it. Therefore...I must not want her to have friends. (It couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that I went to places that I didn't want to be, with people that I didn't know, and had the balls to expect that she may well..you know...not completely fail to acknowledge my existence when we got there.) A couple other examples of the same crap and some things that I don't remember at all. It's like she was with someone else. This far into it and I'm still hearing about new things? I swear some of this crap is purely made up!
I'm sick of this same crap. Over and over. She has decided that this is how things are/were and now accepts it as the only possible truth. She never asked me what was going on with me. I have been tagged controlling and therefore if I ever did
ANYTHING it must be with the goal of controlling her. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
She gets that "I'm not listening to a word you say, you can't make me" look on her face. I hate it!
I waited for a couple of hours to approach her and we hugged.
Where are we now? Who the hell knows?
Wow, that sounds immensely frustrating.
Did you validate at all? And no, I don't think you have to validate something that is utter, fabricated crap past saying something like, "I'm sorry you're hurting." Or even (very calmly), "I hear you - you felt controlled."
See how the last one is not agreement, just acknowledgment of how she felt regardless of the facts either way?
If you can do that, it often cools the situation down b/c the person venting doens't feel like they have to vent *harder* in order to be heard.
Now, it's going to suck for you because YOU won't get heard and that doesn't feel so good. The goal, of course, is to validate enough to get her to a place where she *can* hear you. I can't tell you how long it will take or when it might happen, but IMHO, it's still worth trying.
Thanks Dia. I'm trying. Same crap a million times. I've heard it all before.
I did say that I am so sorry that she felt that's how it was. Sorry it's how she saw it. Sorry we never discussed this stuff at the time. I did try to explain what really happened in those instances. She seemed to listen, but I doubt anything got through. She's seemed to listen before.
It's SO freaking frustrating to hear about a time when we were in the middle of foreplay, she stopped to check on her GF (GF and her hubby were passed out on our couch downstairs after a halloween party) and W just left me there. She didn't come back for 3 hours! I was pi$$ed when I finally went downstairs after 3 hours(at like 4:00am). W said how I was jealous of her GF and didn't want her to have friends. WHAT? We were in the middle of something and you left 3 hours ago saying "I'll be right back!"
This was seen of course as me being controlling. Am I missing something. Am I that dense?
Well, it sounds to me like you *are* jealous of GF. That's also understandable given the sitch. Have you ever admitted she's right on that? And yeah, there's a risk there b/c she could go off on an "I knew it!" tirade, so it will depend on when and how you do it.
example: W, I've been thinking, and you're right. I am jealous of GF. I *do* want you to have friends and an active, healthy social life. If I've stood in the way of that before, I'm sorry. I want more time and affection than I'm getting, so it hurts me when I see you spending so much time with others. It's not fair for me to blame GF for that, so I'm sorry for that, too.
You need to be very calm, even thoughtful, when you say this.
Also, it's *not* fair for you to blame GF, even though it's entirely natural for you to do so. Your upset should be with your W (which it is).
I am jealous of the GF at this point. I have been very with W about this. I have made a point since early to note that my problem wasn't with the GF as a person or that she has a good friend (I've said I'm happy she has a good friend), but my problem is with the relationship she has with the GF.
W has just decided that I am this manipulating man who is always trying to "control" her. It's really frustrating.
Her Mom is a real control freak and I think that my W was really affected by it. Granted, I haven't always always been the best husband. I admit that. Here and to her. I have tried really hard though. I always have. I didn't want her to go be wild and crazy with her friends favoring the loving, caring wife and mother side of her that wanted to spend time with me. I have been selfish with her to a point, but some of her perceptions are just crap.
I've been pursuing a little tonight, but she's been very receptive. Conflicted still. I pursue a little then back off.
I went to hang with a friend tonight and left her home alone. She never seems to miss me though. She likes the time to herself (not something that I generally like).
I'm a little "tipsy" now. It's taking me a while to type.
It is really weird how much we are alike in our situations. Mine was the same way with the social situations. It was like they were set up to fail from the beginning. If it was going good, she would always find something to harp on or would intiate something to make a big deal out if later. No win situation....and I was only trying to find a way to spend time together...
It is really weird how much we are alike in our situations. Mine was the same way with the social situations. It was like they were set up to fail from the beginning. If it was going good, she would always find something to harp on or would intiate something to make a big deal out if later. No win situation....and I was only trying to find a way to spend time together...
I'd be willing to bet that there is more going on with them than we realize. I think my W's mom left her with some issues.
Who knows? It's amazing how two people can see the same situations so differently.
I know my W's mom did....her parents stayed together until she graduated high school then her Mom left her Dad. I can only imagine how that plays into her head.
I'm feeling resentful and needy today. What a weird combination.
I've been fighting pursuing W today. I've caught myself hovering a few times and just left the house for a while. It's hard to push away from it since she has been recceptive lately. It's clear she's not in the mood for it today though. She's not mean so far today. Not even too distant. Just feels like I've pushed enough for now.
I was out for a good chunk of the morning and came home with quite a headache. W noticed mmy behavior and questioned if I was upset with her. I was a little (feeling a little resentful and replaying some of our less stellar moments in my head this morning) but I just told her about my headache. I was surprised that she would care if I was mad at her. Second time in three days she was concerned about that.
I want to go grab her and take so badly right now!
...and kind of want to tell her to leave and not come back at the same time...
I went inside after the last post, stood in front of her and thanked her for bbbeing closer and more affectionate with me this week. She seemed genuinely touched. Then she told me it wasn't just for me.
That was nice to hear.
I want to 'take' her!
Teased her a little...she was receptive.
That may be it for the night...but it was fun ;p
Quite a night.
She stayed in my room last night.
Once again...I'm sure that she's planning to go still, but this will give her plenty to think about while she is alone in her new place.
I had previously been thinking that a night like this would lead to some big epiphany and things would suddenly get better. I'm not expecting that anymore. I'm more along the lines of thinking that these are drops in the bucket helping to fill it up.
When we were done..."cuddling" she is the one who asked to stay in with me. This preceeded by her initiating some of the kissing earlier, saying the affection this week wasn't just for me, curling her head into my neck/shoulder and saying that she wanted to sleep there because it is a place of "comfort" for her have all been really nice.
She didn't get clingy 'after' last night, but did say how comfortable she was. No ILY's and I'm sure she is still planning to go, but I'm going to just spend the morning reflecting on some of the positives.
I had previously been thinking that a night like this would lead to some big epiphany and things would suddenly get better. I'm not expecting that anymore. I'm more along the lines of thinking that these are drops in the bucket helping to fill it up.
When we were done..."cuddling" she is the one who asked to stay in with me. This preceeded by her initiating some of the kissing earlier, saying the affection this week wasn't just for me, curling her head into my neck/shoulder and saying that she wanted to sleep there because it is a place of "comfort" for her have all been really nice.
All good signs. Keep it up and see where it goes.
Same thing with me last night. She slept in our bed, no real cuddling or affection but I can almost feel the weight on her shoulders with her planning on leaving this next weekend.
I'm 100% serious when I say I have no idea what the day, let alone the next hour, will bring in my world! It sounds like you may be slowly headed in the right direction.
Same thing with me last night. She slept in our bed, no real cuddling or affection but I can almost feel the weight on her shoulders with her planning on leaving this next weekend.
I'm 100% serious when I say I have no idea what the day, let alone the next hour, will bring in my world! It sounds like you may be slowly headed in the right direction.
When I said 'cuddling' I meant we went at it like bunnies. We laid there undressed just touching and kissing afterward for a while and went at it again. It was sensual and comfortable. Just no overtly stated ILY's or "I never want to be w/o you" type of things were said.
Apparently your W is as conflicted as mine. I'll jump to your thread and comment more on that in a bit.
Sometimes I can't decide if this intimacy, even hugs/kisses, is good or bad. I can imagine being addicted to drugs..it has to be similar! The high and the low afterwards.
I see it as her going through a horrible time. If anyone's going to be there for her, I want it to be me.
Once she moves out, I'm not going to do this stuff with her anymore.
EB, WTTB:
Both of your sitches seem very similiar to mine. I just happen to be about a month ahead. I hope yours follow a similiar path. Good luck.
Thanks Tristan. Me too. I'm really happy for you.
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Before the bomb, I would have sent W some message..."Thanks for last night" type of thing. I'm just leaving it alone now though.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? Should I just act like it didn't happen?
Yeah, I kind of think that too. I just want to go against what I know is best sometimes and need someone else to set me straight.
It's cool. Normally, it would be a good idea, but since she's doing the Conflicted Twist, you have no idea from moment to moment how she'd receive such a thing. A comment made in person, when you are present to physically read her body language and know where she's at, would be a better idea. No shooting in the dark, though.
Good point. I have no idea where she is at with it today. She was REALLY good with it last night. She was very open and comfortable (no ILY's or anything which was kind of weird).
This morning she wasn't really awake when I left though so I didn't get any read on her. I just told her to have a good day, she said it back and I left. I didn't go in for a good bye kiss.
For all I know she could be thinking a lot about it, it could have just been sex, she could be missing me or looking for houses. It's just all over the place.
Well if you don't bring it up, she has no choice but to think about it = in her own terms with no input from you. She needs space to process her conflicted feelings on her own, I think. As long as you are not responding, she must be faced with herself.
And, moving out does not mean it's over. Her actions show that her feelings are not to just call it quits. So hang on to that. Remember a part of her still loves you and wants to have a R. This moving out thing is about THEIR need to have space to sort out their own feelings, without blaming them on us.
I agree with Dia and Hope.
Only thing to add would be to just be cool. You don't want to become part of the problem. Better to watch from the sideline and respond to her questions. That way, you don't put any pressure on her.
Thanks guys. You'll never know how valued your input is.
It's so hard to talk through this stuff with family and friends who have never been "here." They just don't get it. Everyone's response is "just give her a taste of her own medicine" or "kick her to the curb".
You guys get it. I appreciate your time and insight.
That's b/c your friends are too close. Rightfully, they want you to stop hurting asap b/c then they can stop hurting for you.
Friends, therefore, offer support. Objective observers offer advice.
This is why you should never confuse support for advice.
We also "get it" because we are all going through something similar. We speak from experience. Your friends - who love you very much - may or may not have been in your shoes, so they guess at what to say. They are trying to protect you even if it's not the advice you need.
It's a great support to know that there are many people on this forum going through similar circumstances. We also refer to the DB to have a guide through troubling times. It's a unique place to get a unique perspective.
I don't know what I would do w/o this board. I feel like you are all my friends and we haven't even met! If I was alone this would be 10X worse.
I came home from work to W feeling a little icky. (cold & headdache).
I stoodd against the cupboard like I used to do when I got home and she hugged me like she used to. She held the hug longer than I did. Since she wasn't feeling well I offered to run her a bath andd she was very appreciative.
I said it a few months ago...it's almost scarier when things seem to be going well. I know now to keep my expectations in check though. It was only 3 days ago we argued about her real estate transaction.
Hope your night goes well EB. I have a feeling mine isn't
Sorry man. I was just reading your stuff.
I have been at this for almost a year. I can relate.
Pray. Get out of the house for a bit. Go watch a movie. Anything.
You know, I guess I haven't always been a religious man but all of this has really opened my eyes. As part of me GAL, I have been going to church faithfully now for over 2 months. That is not a long time, but it does feel good. I feel like it is my time to give.
I find myself praying often during the day, out loud. It is nice to let go and say what is on my mind and ask for help for others, not just "help me".
Hope your night goes well EB.
You know, I guess I haven't always been a religious man but all of this has really opened my eyes. As part of me GAL, I have been going to church faithfully now for over 2 months. That is not a long time, but it does feel good. I feel like it is my time to give.
I find myself praying often during the day, out loud. It is nice to let go and say what is on my mind and ask for help for others, not just "help me".
Hope your night goes well EB.
Prayer has made a world of difference for me. Nothing but good can come from that. I will pray for you as well.
Thanks Tristan. Me too. I'm really happy for you.
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Before the bomb, I would have sent W some message..."Thanks for last night" type of thing. I'm just leaving it alone now though.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? Should I just act like it didn't happen?
EB.
This sounds like the night before my W moved out. After that, I went pretty dark. It was a drastic change for both of us. But everything lined up right with her moving out the next day.
I wouldn't act like it didn't happen. But I wouldn't make a big deal of it either. This was a very odd time for me. My W was still in the house, I saw her everyday, but we both knew she was moving out. I did my best to be friendly, I didn't want her last days in the home to be unbearable. But I started putting up boundaries (i.e. no kissing, hugging, etc.). However, all of those boundaries came down the night before she left (because it felt right to me).
I guess what I am trying to say is there is no "right" way to do this. There are certain things that you need to do:
1. Validate W's feelings
2. GAL
3. Respect W
4. Respect yourself
5. Be a great father
6. Improve yourself
7. etc.
But beyond that, I would say be true to who you are. When I tried to do something that was obviously not me, my W would see right through it. However, when in doubt, I would say "less is more".
All good suggestions. I'm really trying on all fronts. It's hard to validate when I see things so differently. W is smart. Saying things like "I'm sorry you feel that way" pi$$es her off. She just wants to hear "you're right, I am a bad man and we aren't meant to be together." I've gotten better at this though. I choose words very carefully.
-----------------------------
She watched some recorded TV last night. We used to do this together all of the time pre-bomb. We talked about the episode and I think she wanted me to stay and watch it with her, but she didn't ask me to. (she never asks me to do anything...always says if I wanted to I would. It's maddening) So I went upstairs and read.
I just got a book called Love Must Be Tough. W saw it sitting on the counter, read the title and said "ain't that the truth."
Before bedtime I went downstairs and gave W a hug. She held onto me for a while again. The dog jumped up and we played with her for 20 minutes or so. Very playful. The joke here is that the dog that we have LOVES me and gets jealous of W. If I hug W or sit close to W, the dog jumps in between us. She usually puts her behind on W freaks out to get my attention. We were laughing hard about it.
When W was getting ready for bed she stuck her head in "my" room a couple of times. (she always has some 'legitimate' reason for it) Finally I said "just get over here and give me a hug'. She did. She cuddled up with me for a minute...until the dog jumped in again.
No kisses. No ILY's. Then off to "her" room for the night.
S7 went and laid with her this morning when I was getting ready for work. I went in to kiss him G'bye. Told W have a good day, but offered no hugs/kisses, etc.
I'm sure she's still going, but once again this will be something more positive to miss than arguing and coldness.
CRAP!!
I miss her today!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
I'm wondering what she's up to.
A couple of days with a little affection and I end up here again? Huh?
What's a boy to do?
I'll leave it alone and I've made plans for after work just to make sure I don't come off needy at home. It's weird after all this to start wondering what she's doing today. Wondering if she's thinking about me.
MAKE IT GO AWAY!!!
Hang in there!!
I'm the same way. Only takes a day or two to reduce me to whining.
Work is crazy - gotta run!
Once again, you and are similar, EB. Of course, not really, my H wouldn't touch me if I was the last female on earth. However, two days of not seeing him and I am Jonesing a bit. But like you, keeping busy, not being needy.
My days like that are around the corner. She plans on having all of her stuff out of the house on Thursday. I know tonight is the last night she will spend in our house. Feels like the end but of what I don't know.
I made sure I didn't go straight home after work yesterday. I just know I would have been clingy and needy. I tried to time my arrival home just in time to see S off to bed.
I had a conversation with a friend of mine along the lines of "I could go completely dark and W would never pursue me." Then wouldn't you know it...she called me when I was on my way home.
Ironic.
Of course, she had a reason to call. She wanted me to pick up something from the store...then she kept me on the phone for another 20-30 minutes. It was nice. I could tell she WANTED to talk to me.
That's different.
When I got home, I went through the bed time routine with S and noticed W standing the door watching with a little smile.
I offered no hugs, etc. I was just friendly and upbeat. I asked about her day and went to "my" room to watch TV. No pursuing by either of us. Not much said, good or bad. Just comfortable really. She slept in "her" room again.
S was in "her" room (I wish I could bulldoze just that part of my house) this morning. He goes in there after he wakes up most mornings. I went in there to give S a hug before I left. I gave W a hug too from behind. I left the room and she called me back for another hug so she could hug me back.
There was as odd exchange about the dishes in the dishwasher before I walked out the door, but otherwise it seems positive.
I'm still not talking about her moving, asking about her search for a new house etc.
Stick with this path. It may be working, but you won't know unless you stick with it.
The path of 'a little affection then backing off' or the path of 'no talking about moving?'
I have to admit, it is strange thinking that she can occasionally sleep with me, kiss me, act passionate with me (my opinion), hug me, call me...yet can't discuss our relationship and wants to leave.
I want to kick her a@# and call her and tell her I love her at the same time.
I think that I caught a touch of crazy from her when we were together the other night.
I had a conversation with a friend of mine along the lines of "I could go completely dark and W would never pursue me." Then wouldn't you know it...she called me when I was on my way home.
Ironic.
I think this is your key, EB. When you feel W wouldn't pursue you if you went dark - you might be wrong. REmind yourself that the DB techniques are counter-intuitive. I would back way off (easier said than done - I totally relate to what you fear, I do that too) and don't let your fear stop you. Give her a month of way more distance and silence than you usually give her. I don't think for you the issue is "giving her a taste of what she is missing" any more. You've done that, she's still moving out. I think it's time to try something more radical and see if she notices. I think being way less available is the road you should take right now and see if it works. Even if you are afraid she won't pursue you. Don't knock it until you try it.
Not to mention, she sounds like the more she walks toward moving out, the more she is also physical with you. That means she actually may be moving toward you as a reaction to separation. If you aren't so available she may get thrown off and actually pursue. Try it! We're here to support you and get you through it!
Disclaimer - this is also hard for me - so we can support each other!
And don't be fooled by what goes on the first few days. My W barely spoke to me after I went dark for a couple of weeks. I was thinking this must be so easy for her. When we finally did speak, I found out that it was just as hard (if not harder) on her than it was me. Don't try to mind-read. Seriously, do you really think you can figure out what is going through her head right now
During the time I was dark, I found this board very helpful. If I wanted to say something to W; I put up here instead. It's like a journal that offers advice and support.
I agree with Tristan - I went a month of dark, communicated twice with the kids, had W drop kids off outside instead of coming in with them. Didn't hear a peep from her.
The end of the month was my birthday, and she called me, and got diarrhea of the mouth - probably talked on and on for an hour, I think I may have said 5 words, then I interrupted because I had to eat breakfast. After that, she started calling me every day, texting, emailing, sending pictures, coming over, and so on.
Can't promise that'll be your experience - but your W is allowing hugs! Mine would've punched me (or anyone) in the eye!
The path of 'a little affection then backing off' or the path of 'no talking about moving?'
Can be both, if the affection thing is initiated by her. Certainly let her drive the discussion on the moving issue.
Can't promise that'll be your experience - but your W is allowing hugs! Mine would've punched me (or anyone) in the eye!
We've just gotten back to hugging. We've been all over the map this past year.
We used to E-mail back and forth, text or call at least a couple of times each day. I used to come straight home from work 99% of the time and we would spend the evenings together.
I haven't been "dark" lately, but I have been making sure to give space, especially after we have been close. I thought that it was telling that the girl who I never thought would come to me kind of has been a couple of times recently. I was gone or busy most of the weekend...she slept with me Sunday. I was out all day yesterday...she called.
And don't be fooled by what goes on the first few days. My W barely spoke to me after I went dark for a couple of weeks. I was thinking this must be so easy for her. When we finally did speak, I found out that it was just as hard (if not harder) on her than it was me. Don't try to mind-read. Seriously, do you really think you can figure out what is going through her head right now
During the time I was dark, I found this board very helpful. If I wanted to say something to W; I put up here instead. It's like a journal that offers advice and support.
Good to know. Thanks for sharing.
Once she moves out, I can't imagine doing anything other than going dark.
I think she wants me to actually "be a part of it." I want to be understanding, but this just seems like a little too much.
At least you are in the same house. Harder to go dark but you also get the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't.
After mine moves out tomorrow, I am going JofF's route and go as dark as possible. Limit communication to the kids, limit the exchange, etc.....if nothing else to help detach for peace of mind.
do you really think you can figure out what is going through her head right now
God no. It gives me a headache just to try.
At least you are in the same house. Harder to go dark but you also get the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't.
After mine moves out tomorrow, I am going JofF's route and go as dark as possible. Limit communication to the kids, limit the exchange, etc.....if nothing else to help detach for peace of mind.
I do't see how you could do otherwise.
My W said at one time that she wanted me to be involved. WTF? You want me to come and help you pick out paint colors?
If it helped, I would muster up the strength to make muself do it (or go numb enough enough to get through it), but I don't think it will. I don't want to act like this OK.
That is tough spot....do you be cool and nice and help out. Be a part of that...maybe she'll remember you when she sees that color? Or do you detach and be dark, tell her you're not interested.
This is where I get torn....which is the better route for me long term? My plan is to not set foot into her apt.
She is so hard headed she wouldn't ask for help last night moving mattresses and other heavy things. She dropped one on her foot but did not ask for help. I probably would have if she would have asked. But she didn't so I just gave the kids their bath.
Maybe ask if she will trade favors? You help and she ...???
OK...it was just a joke!
In all seriousness, I am right with you here. I am still torn a little, but leaning to the dark tactic.
As hard as it may be, I try to stay away from helping in anyway with them moving out or building the new life. She is not asking you to help because she knows it is not fair, plus she probably wants to prove she can do it herself. So let her do it.
Mine did ask if I wanted to go to her place and help arrange things. I believe my response was to politely say "I would rather not." She accepted that with something like "I understand."
Recently she asked what I didn't like about her place after I said she could stay at our home, but I wouldn't stay over there. I said something similiar to "This is our home. This is where we belong." And she nodded. I was never mean about it, I just stated what was going through my mind.
My boundary is "If we are going to be a family. I want it to be between 2 parents committed to each other and living under 1 roof." I don't want to go to something that is halfway in between. I find that position pretty easy to defend. Now I do go over to her place and hang out every once in a while now, but it wasn't until she made concessions that she wanted to work on the marriage again.
Ha ha...I could see myself saying that, especially a few months ago. Now I just look at her, shake my head, then find something else to do.
I know a stranger better than I know her.
I can really see both sides here.
Me: Self. W is going through a really confusing, hard time. She needs to you be understanding and supportive. If you love her you will worry more about what is best for her. Added bonus, this will keep me involved with her life and help to paint me in a nicer light in her eyes.
AND.........
Me: It's me again, self. WTF? She wants to be independent, let her be independent. Draw a line. Don't let yourself be treated disrespectfully. Let her see what "independence" is really like. Have fun moving the couch upstairs with your feaking GF. I will not condone this. She will not get my blessing.
Yep, just like that. I suppose there is a road in between somewhere you have to find...in the dark...with your hands tied behind your back.
Feeling needy again today. So weird. I was straight up resentful a few days ago...
I need to do something out of the house tonight, but I have left W with S a lot recently. Maybe I should think of something to do with S tonight. Get us both out of the house.
I can really see both sides here.
Me: It's me again, self. WTF? She wants to be independent, let her be independent. Draw a line. Don't let yourself be treated disrespectfully. Let her see what "independence" is really like. Have fun moving the couch upstairs with your feaking GF. I will not condone this. She will not get my blessing.
Definitely go with Me#2. Do not help her. You have been very understanding and empathetic - and where has it gotten you? Her moving out? Let her feel her "independence"/ lonliness.
I appreciate your input. Don't forget though that it was gotten me from a W that said she should have never married me and will go insane if she stay's with me to a W that hugs and kisses me and says she can't imagine how hard this has been for me.
There has been some progress.
I appreciate your input. Don't forget though that it was gotten me from a W that said she should have never married me and will go insane if she stay's with me to a W that hugs and kisses me and says she can't imagine how hard this has been for me.
There has been some progress.
EB. Yet she continues to move forward on seperating. It is fine to be polite and show compassion. However, do not let her trample over you. She is moving out and breaking up the family. I don't think you should help her do it. Read some of the stuff Robx wrote me. You can not stand to keep a marriage together while helping her to break it up. You may make her angry, but you will also gain respect from her if you stand up to her on some of these things. You will also feel better about yourself. Go out and GAL; move on and enjoy your life without her for a while. My W did not start moving back toward me until she felt I had dropped the rope (I had by no way dropped the rope yet, but she perceived it that way).
Just my 2 cents.
She called me on the way home from work to discuss dinner. We talked for a bit. All ubpeat.
She was warm when I got home. I asked about her day and she said she did nothing and was just lazy. I then went upstairs to change and started watching TV in the bedroom. After a while she came to seek me out. Good right?
As she sat there I asked if she had something to talk to me about since she seemed like something was on her mind.
She told me she went to talk to a new "finance guy" today. Aparently she's trying to figure out how to get that same place. I gave a look of disproval and we sat in silence for a while. I said I wish you could find what you're looking for without spending a hundred thousand dollars. She just said "me too."
Then she laid on the bed with me for like 15 mins until I got up. I didn't touch her or say a word.
What the hell?
How do I respond to this?
How does she act loving to me this moorning with this planned?
I want to tell her to just go. This is what she does while I am off providing for our family during the day? WTF?
I went inside after writing the previous post. W asked if I was OK. I said "no. It sucks that as I was off roviding for my family today my W was further planning her escape. I am trying to be a good understanding husand, but I won't lie. It sucks."
Now I am wondering if she was ggoing to ask for money or me to help her get this place somehow and lost her nerve. I sure hope this past week hadn't been her way of uttering me up to ask for something like that.
I think she was feeling you out. I think you may be to the point where you just have to let her go......that may be the only way to get her back. Same as in my sitch.
Good for you. Stand your ground, Your feelings should be heard too. and no, don't help her escape. She could take a six month lease on an apartment instead of rushing into buying something.
I wish she would just rent. She has a bunch of reasons why buying is better though and my trying to talk her out of it makes her more sure she wants to do it.
It's awkward in our house again.
Should I just lay it on the table and ask her when she is planning to be gone?
Should I tell her that I am sick of being strung along and want her to get out?
I wish she would just rent. She has a bunch of reasons why buying is better though and my trying to talk her out of it makes her more sure she wants to do it.
Hang on. You are trying to argue/reason with a WAW? You KNOW you can't do that. So, stop. You cannot control this.
Should I just lay it on the table and ask her when she is planning to be gone?
Should I tell her that I am sick of being strung along and want her to get out?
Whoa. What is your goal? You know if you push too early what's going to happen.
It sounds like you are frustrated, tired, pi$$ed off, angry - ALL UNDERSTANDABLE. But all emotional. Don't use that as a basis for your decision.
Deep breaths.
I am emotional tonight. I meant to say that I haven't tried to talk her out of buying because when I have tried to reason with her on other stuff it has made her more determined to do the opposite of what I have wanted.
Maybe I handled it all wrong tonight. I'm still trying to be the good guy. I still love her. I feel bad for her but I also feel very mistreated and get so frustrated.
I'm typing on my phone so I won't get into too many details. She still talks about feeling so guilty and her reasons for this change. Now she says that she says she's felt the 'in love' feeling for me at points this week, but can't explain why she feels she needs to go. She says that she sees what she's putting me through and doesn't deserve my understanding attitude.
I told her that I can accept that she feels she has to leave, but I don't have to like it. I don't have to like it or sit and go over the details with her.
Well at least she tells you how she feels. I'm typing on my phone too.....it's because she took the computer!!!!
You have pros and cons...she is still there. You have to decide if that is the pro or con!
I would not push her out. Don't get in her way, but don't push her out either. I think you will regret it if you do. Especially don't do it until you've given it a couple days of thought.
There is no OM in the picture is there? Do you have any suspicions?
She's only still here while she finishes her financing.
I'm pretty sure she'll at least miss me when shezs gone now.
She said she didn't realize that she'd been leading me on this past week (BS?) and that it hadn't changed her plans (obvvious now).
I didn't honestly think it did but I thought it may at least make her havve second thoughts. Afterall, this all started because she didn't have that 'in love' feeling for me. She's admitted finding it for at least some occasions recently.
Well at least she tells you how she feels. I'm typing on my phone too.....it's because she took the computer!!!!
I hope you meant that to be funny, because I couldn't stop laughing. I know it really sucks, but the way you said it was hilarious.
I've had OM suspicious but I snooped on a lot of stuff and everything checked out OK.
She's home every night anymore too. Occasionally she'll go for a walk for an hour or two , but I do that too to get out of the house.
It's possible. Nothing that I've seen confirms it though.
took your computer? I thought she wasn't leaving until tomorrow.
I'm not sure that I handled last night completely "appropriately" whatever that means. There was a hug before bed.
It's so weird. She weems like she doesn't want to go, but is going to go through with it because she doesn't want to feel like she was talked out of it or backed out or whatever.
I'm planning on getting home later tonight again. I'm not seeing as much of my S lately because of the amount of time I'm spending out. I'm sure to tuck him in as much as possible though. I guess that I'm trying to get used to not being with him whenever I want. That's the way it will be after she leaves.
Strange. She says she loves me. She said she'll miss me when she's gone. She even said she can't imagine being with anyone else (that what she says now). Then she says she needs to do this, but can't really explain why.
It's like I'm in the twilight zone. I still feel bad for her. I still wish I could fix it. I still see "my" wife pop her head out every once in a while.
Hang in there, EB.
Remember, much of the time the fantasy bubble bursts when they leave.
"What? I left and I'm still not happy? WTF???!"
"What? I left and I'm still not happy? WTF???!"
Hi Dia. You don't have to answer this if you don't want, but is this what happened to you?
No, not really. Remember that with me, what motivated me to actually leave and file was discovering his affair with my best friend.
Not like I was innocent, mind you - but it's a bit different than your standard WAW. I was ready to move forward *with him*, and it was in trying to go to him to talk about it that I discovered the A.
No, not really. Remember that with me, what motivated me to actually leave and file was discovering his affair with my best friend.
Not like I was innocent, mind you - but it's a bit different than your standard WAW. I was ready to move forward *with him*, and it was in trying to go to him to talk about it that I discovered the A.
Sorry. I knew there was some history there, but wasn't sure of the details. Thanks. So that begs the question: what changed your mind about him?
His changes did. It took several months, and I wasn't to the point where I was ecstatically happy and madly in love again. But I was at the point where I would have committed to working on/saving the M, would have kicked OM to the curb, etc.
Thank you Dia. I hope that is where my W is now. Sorry for the hijack EB.
No worries on the hijack. Good things to know. Interesting to know that even when someone's given up they still notice changes.
I haven't made it home from work yet.
It's good to be out, but I kind of want to be home with her still.
STill trying to find online games for us, EB. I found a few sites, but they gave a warning that they might hurt my computer. Hopefully tomorrow I'll find something else!
EB, just read though some of your threads and am sorry for what you are dealing with. My sitch is similiar, however, wife just moved out today to her apartment. It will be intersting to see how that goes. Of course I wonder about all the rest, but have decided to take it day-byday. I am preparing for any eventuality, although my detachment is slower than I wished for. Today's departure might hasten my ability to completely detach.
I will be checking in regularly to see how things are progressing.
Sorry you find yourself here Shell. At least you'll find people who can understand and relate. When I get to a computer instead of my phone I will jump over and check out your sitch.
Hang in there.
I have the day off of work today. When W got home from dropping S off at school she saw me in bed still and was being playful with me. (I didn't tell her I was off today. she was telling me to get up)
since she was being playful I invited her in. We playfully snuggled for a few mins. I thanked her for it and got up and ready for the day. She was a little withdrawn when I came downstairs but not too bad.
I left to go out and called her a couple hours later to ask if she would mind if I took S to see Toy Story tomorrow. She saidd she did mind because she wanted to take him. I suggested that we go together and she agreed. (she was kind of weird about it though)
So, we're doing something together as a family tomorrow.
EB, i have the same issue with my WAW and her GF. In my opinion irts one of the reasons she left. The amount of time she spends on FB and txtng her GF is unreal. I have learned to just turn away when she does it. In my opinion, FB is one of the worst things that has happend to our M - or what is currently our M.
FB is one of the worst things that has happend to our M - or what is currently our M.
Yep. Mine too.
So 180 on FB, like Smiley says "embrace the suck."
Get your own page, make lots of friends, update it with PMA, send notes to her, be on it.
EB, forgive me for hijacking, I promise to move this back to my thread, but Coach, I think I can benefot greatly from opinion here. Are you suggesting using FB (which I do have a page and she is on it) as an indirect form of communication to her? OR using it to directly communicate with her.
She left this morning and I have the boys for the next week. Certainly would't mind her knowing that we are doing just fine without her, but without making it too obvious.
I vote bad for M also...facebook.
http://word-games.pogo.comThey have scrabble - and others. Interested? Let me know then I will sign up and we'll figure out how to challenge one another to a game!
As for a book - I'm intersted in a comedy! I'll ask around...
Hey = have you seen this site:
http://us.bugcafe.netor this one:
http://www.pogo.comBoth look like ways we could play scrabble or other games online - I think we just both sign up, give each other our screen names (or emails) and invite each other to a game.
Interested?
Cool Hope. I'll check these out this evening. I'm feeling really weird this past 24 hrs and I can't focus well right now. It's hard watching W "act as if" and be so detached when I am fully aware she is making moving plans.
I am cycling emotions and wonder why I still care and how she doesn't. Especially after all of the affection recently.
I'm kind of a mess.
I think I'm going to bow out of Toy Story this afternoon. It's too hard to be roommates.
Ever feel like you're going crazy? Living in the Twilight Zone?
EB. I am sorry. Did you already tell your son you were going to go? If you did, you may not want to bail. I doubt you would want to dissappoint him. It's a movie, not like you were going to interact much with W anyway. You could tell her that you have something to do right afterward and drive seperately. Go to a bar and watch a football game. I did that the weekend my W started moving things into her apartment. I got all dressed up went to a bar watched a football game and talked to the bartender all night. If you tell them your W just left you, you may just get a few free shots of whiskey (I got a few).
Hang in there and GAL.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I agree it is like the twilight zone. It's hard to make sense of what's happening.I also understand when it's hard to focus. Perhaps you can just take some time for yourself, take a walk, a nap, something. Seems like the more you are around W the more weird things seem.
EB - please read this when you can focus again - it really helped me - there are seven pages to the article - read them all through. Hang in there, we're with you!
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/divorce_and_infidelity/love_must_be_tough.aspx
Ever feel like you're going crazy? Living in the Twilight Zone?
Yes. Everything was very surreal for a while. But, you will come out of this before your W does. But that's really not the point.
Tristan is right. Go do something, anything. Maybe something you have been wanting to do for a while but haven't had time.
Understandably, you seem very focused on what she is thinking, why she is thinking, what she is doing. This WILL drive you crazy. You just have to let it go. In the end, what good is this going to do you? Nothing but downside. Easier said than done. But, it's the truth, and the way out of the state you're in right now.
Get GAL'ing and detach.
Thanks guys. Something just hit me yesterday after we hugged and snuggled.
After my last post she came and founf me in the bedroom. She said something about me being distant and stood there quiet. She told me she was sorry. Sorry she didn't address things in our marriage in an effort to avoid the conflict too. I thanked her and told her I am sorry for my role as well, but pointed out that I think we have gotten a lot etter at communicating with eachother. She agreed and said there's still a long way to go (I'll try not to read too much into that).
I asked S about the movie. I think that W and I were more excited aout it than him so I did end up bailing out.
I've been at my G'ma's house working on it for the past couple of hours. (she's been moved to my Dad's house and she was a hoarder...the house is an unbelievable mess). It's a good place to get away.
Gima...you're right. I have been trying to mindread. She seems like she is hurting so much. I know I can't fix it, but I sure wish I could. She doesn't come off as angry any more. Just distant and sad. She just says she can't explain it. she wants to het to know the real her and follow her own path kind of stuf. She said she feels so guilty and still loves me.
Ì will get through the day but I'm kind of a mess right now. Somehow I find myself back at the stage where I want to curl up in a ball and go to sleep.
You just gotta stay busy and make it through today. None of us are promised tomorrow.
She probably is hurting. And she has to find her way out of that, alone. What you can do is heal yourself so if, and when, she comes out of the fog, you are in a much better place. If she doesn't come out soon enough, you are still in a better place.
I really think you have to be healthy before you can have a healthy R with another person.
Do things that boost your confidence. It WILL help you detach. It did for me.
Gima is correct. She is definitely hurting. And he is right, there is nothing you can do to fix it. It is all her. Your grandmas place seems to be a great place to go to get away. Decluttering can be helpful for your mind.
I would also suggest getting out with people. For me it was difficult for me to find people I was comfortable to talk with, especially before my W moved out. I didn't want people to know about our problems, in case things changed. However, I still went out and got around people. Festivals, church, bars, coffee shops, live bands, gym, ballgames all work for me. If you can go with friends that is better, but even if you go alone it will be helpful. Find something that you will enjoy doing. You will likely need to force yourself to go (you won't feel like going), but you will feel better after you get there.
You guys are great. Thank you so much.
Got home from G'ma's about 30 mins ago. Kissed on S7 and did bedtime routine. Took a quick shower and told her I was leaving again. (going to the bar with a friend)
She's p!ssed!
She made it ovious but didn't say anything. I asked and she said somethhing about me being gone so much lately. She heard herself and said that I haven't been letting her and S know when I'll be here or not. I told her she could have called my phone at anytime.
Off to the bar!
You guys are great. Thank you so much.
Got home from G'ma's about 30 mins ago. Kissed on S7 and did bedtime routine. Took a quick shower and told her I was leaving again. (going to the bar with a friend)
She's p!ssed!
She made it ovious but didn't say anything. I asked and she said somethhing about me being gone so much lately. She heard herself and said that I haven't been letting her and S know when I'll be here or not. I told her she could have called my phone at anytime.
Off to the bar!
Its OK she is pissed tonight. Watch her carefully over the next couple of days, see how she responds. Stay happy. Let her see that you will be OK without her. Also, make sure you don't short-change your son while you are gal'ing. Taking him out to a movie was a good idea. "Meatballs" was a movie that all 4 of us enjoyed if you are looking for one other than "Toy Story".
Take care.
It is time she is pissed...let her be. Now tomorrow go see a movie like Tristan suggested or go to the park with your son.
Man, as crazy as this sounds, it is not a bad thing she's pissed. I'll take pissed over indifference any day.
The old saying is the opposite of love isn't anger...it's indifference.
I need to get to a computer. Navigating and typing on this phone is too cumbersome.
W called me out on being out of the house so much after I returned home last night. She's NEVER been that way. She said that S has been missing me. She asked me what I have been up to and told me I have been acting suspicions.
I told her that I was preparing for her to leave. Developing my new life since it won't be with her like I had wanted. I also said that S will go days without seeing me once she moves out so we'll need to get used to it.
She told me that she thought we'd still e together all of the time and thought that I would go to her place to see him. I responded by telling her that once she moves out she has left. I had no intentions on going there. It would be a place of horrible association for me.
It seems like this was the first that she has felt that she would actually be without me.
Not much R talk today but she's been very affectionate.
Twilight zone? dddd dddd dddd (music doesn't translate well)
It sounds like you should spend more time with your son. It is good for you, it is good for him. I have come so much closer with my daughters over this past year and I am grateful for it. I am a better dad now than I was a year ago, and it is the improvement that I am most proud of.
It sounds like you are doiing well. I think the affection after her being angry is a very good sign. Be a gentleman, but continue to GAL.
I am not sure saying to your W that your S needs to get use to not seeing you is a good idea though. Let her know that you will fight for every minute of his time. Believe me, I was a little apprehensive of taking D5 & D3 by myself for 50% of the time at first (I wasn't sure how well I would handle it); but now I will have it no other way.
Good luck.
I admire the strength and confidence you displayed with your W. And, yes, she needs to see the real picture of what D will look like.
But, I agree with Tristan. Keep your R with you S and grow it even more now. I know you will.
Keep working on you and on detaching. It WILL pay off, no matter what happens with the M.
Thanks for checking in guys.
Funny thing is that I am VERY close to my boy. This was the first Saturday in nearly a year that wasn't spent with him. I've been home to tuck him in nearly every night. I think she was reaching for a reason. She was upset seeing me GAL and couldn't complain about me being out without sounding like a hipocrite. Months back she was quite the rolling stone. S and I went to every event and venue in town. She missed out because she refused to go or was hung over. (she hasn't been this way in a number of months)
I don't think she has had any thought of what being separated would really look like. It sounds like it has just been seen as the magic pill to happiness. She honestly thought we'd have two houses and she could make all of her decisions without having to consider anyone else (me).
My boy and I spent some time together todah. Played with the dog and watched a dvd in our basement theater.
W has been REALLY affectionate throughout the day. She pulled me into the bedroom three times! (she didn't have to pull too hard as I wasn't fighting)
Tomorrow will be interesting. I'll e sure to keep it light hearted.
Good.
And DO NOT stop GAL'ing. Be careful not to lie to her. But, it's ok to be vague.
I'm glad you set your boundary. She is definitely responding. Keep it up. Do what works. and this works!!!
Good.
And DO NOT stop GAL'ing. Be careful not to lie to her. But, it's ok to be vague.
I am very honest when asked, but I did make a point to be vague when I left.
Boy oh oy...she didn't like it. It was kind of nice to see that it bugged her. She was so indifferent a few weeks ago. It was nice to see that she at least cared.
I've got tomorrow off of work. I'll be sure to come up with something to do while S is at school since W will be at home during the day.
How's it going? Hey = I got a recommendation for a comedic novel - still interested?
How's it going? Hey = I got a recommendation for a comedic novel - still interested?
I'm still up for the games and the book. I had an extended weekend withour access to a real computer. I was using my phone for a couple of posts, but it was kind of a pain.
How's it going? I really don't know. From the outside, I'd say it's going great. After I told W Saturday night that I was preparing for my new life without her, we spent Sunday together and she was very affectionate. We ML multiple times at her direction (I kissed her neck while hugging, so I may have primed the pump, but I didn't initiate the ML).
She slept in with my Sunday night. I was off work yesterday and spent most of it working on household projects in the garage. She came out and initiated conversations with me regularly throughout the day. It was clear that she wanted to spend time with me, but felt funny about being up front about it. She mentioned on a number of occasions on how I must hate her so it became a parody. I told her "I hate you" in the tone of ILY. She responded back "I hate you too" in a very loving manner. Weird yes, but it worked at the time.
She was like the old her yesterday. She initiated hugs and even feined jealousy when a scantily clad woman in a TV show caught my attention. We watched TV together Sunday and Monday nights like we used to. I haven't heard about the GF in a couple days (a record for the past couple of years).
W went to bed in "her" room last night, but came knocking on my door about an hour later. We spent the night curled up together (no LMing, which was believe it or not nice). She even pulled me in for a hug before I left this morning.
I'd say it's going great, from the outside looking in. The problem is that we've been here before and it's gone away. She hasn't said she's staying either. The way she's been she could just see this as "nice" but still feel the need to go.
I'll get around to checking in on everyone's sitch's now that I am back to a computer.
In response to myself we've been here before, but I think that I am a little better at this now. As GIMA mentioned, I need to keep my new GAL attitude if I have any hopes of this sticking. If W goes from 2% me in her life to 100% me all will be lost.
Also, I spent a lot of yesterday monitoring how much I was around W. After the previous day which was nearly constant affection and interaction, I was sure to give her plenty of room and waited for her to come to me. I have plans after work today so that whould help too.
Good stuff, Maynard!!
I'm happy for you, EB. Keep doing what works - and this is working.
Glad you are GALing and taking care of yourself. Keep those blues at bay!
Hey - and when is your computer fixed so we can play scabble?
Hey - and when is your computer fixed so we can play scabble?
I'll have to sign up for that game site tonight.
My boss said some snotty comment about the web site that I am "always" on so I'll need to keep off of the board while I am at work.
W's at home and Boss is at work. It's hard to find time/place to get on here lately. I'll just have to come on here at night I guess.
Not much to add to my journal about last night. I went out with my cousins last night. Good dinner. I stayed away from the drinking. W called at one point in the afternoon with a question about a movie character. (Seemed like she was looking for a reason to call). She was in bed when I got home (back to the extra room). She was still awake and said she wasn't feeling well still (stressed out again). Some pullback, but not too much. She came into our(my) room later (another lame excuse why) and I rubbed her neck for a few minutes. She gave me a hug and went back to the other room.
BTW Hope - what book did you come up with?
No problem about the games = I'm just poking fun at you.
So she hasn't moved out yet? Why is she back at home?
So she hasn't moved out yet? Why is she back at home?
I wish knew what was going on with her. I don't though.
As far a I know she's planning to go still. This past couple of weeks with lost of loving and affection my mean nothing to her or may be fueling more conflict. I'm just trying to me the best me that I can be.
I may come home to a hug and kiss or she may tell me she got her place today.
She sent me an E-mail asking abt my day today. Good right? I responded and asked about hers...she never responded back.
Still trying to be the best me that I can be. Hope - I know you can relate all too well to swings in attitude.
If I come home to a loving W I will have to keep trying not to scare her off. I have a weird feeling again today though. My weird feelings are usually on, but I will try to keep my PMA.
I meant "lots of loving and affection" not lost. Oops. Too late to edit now.
Pullback....let's see how much....
I came home to a dinner set out for me, but she's een "off" since. ...and now she's on the phone with the GF. I hadn't heard a peep aout the GF in days.
Nothing majorly negative yet...but...
I'll just smile and wave.
Nothing's happened yet...but there sure is something in the air.
Her actions today have been great, but something sure feels funny.
Smile and wave, boys. Smile and wave. And GAL.
Just ride it out, EB. You'll be fine.
Thanks Dia. I hope you have a great night out on the left coast.
I made it to bed without any issue. W is reading downstairs. She gave me a hug on the way into "my" room. She spent most of the evening watching TV in what used to be "our" room while S and I were downstairs. It's clear she's having a hard time.
Maybe that's a good thing.
Nothing's happened yet...but there sure is something in the air.
Her actions today have been great, but something sure feels funny.
I hate these nights. You can never quite put your finger on whats different, but you feel it.
I hate these nights. You can never quite put your finger on whats different, but you feel it.
That's why I come here. People who know exactly the feeling that I am talking about.
I would imagine that she's having some pretty big conflicting issues again. Nothing was said, but she's been hell bent on leaving and now had some pretty significant closeness with me. Those two things couldn't coexist in one heart or head very nicely with eachother.
I think she may be having an issue seeing me GAL after hearing me tell her that I'm preparing for my new life that won't include her too. Dinner was on the table when I got home. W and S were sitting there waiting for me. There was a cold beer at my spot.
When I walked in and I was on the phone with someone laughing and enjoying myself, W clammed up and was off for the rest of the night.
I think she may be having an issue seeing me GAL after hearing me tell her that I'm preparing for my new life that won't include her too. Dinner was on the table when I got home. W and S were sitting there waiting for me. There was a cold beer at my spot.
When I walked in and I was on the phone with someone laughing and enjoying myself, W clammed up and was off for the rest of the night.
Thats all good. She wanted to please you and you have an affect on her. Sounds like your GAL'ing is working. Keep it up.
I hate these nights. You can never quite put your finger on whats different, but you feel it.
That's why I come here. People who know exactly the feeling that I am talking about.
I would imagine that she's having some pretty big conflicting issues again. Nothing was said, but she's been hell bent on leaving and now had some pretty significant closeness with me. Those two things couldn't coexist in one heart or head very nicely with eachother.
I think she may be having an issue seeing me GAL after hearing me tell her that I'm preparing for my new life that won't include her too. Dinner was on the table when I got home. W and S were sitting there waiting for me. There was a cold beer at my spot.
When I walked in and I was on the phone with someone laughing and enjoying myself, W clammed up and was off for the rest of the night.
Sounds like you are having an affect on her. Just a cautious little reminder not to get hung up on what she might be thinking - no mindreading. Just focus on you, not her thoughts.
Your happiness must be hitched to how you feel about YOU. Making your happiness depend on her thoughts, actions, words, moods is dangerous and unhealthy - it's called co-dependence. And I used to have that problem too.
Keep doing what you are doing, but only do it for you.
Your happiness must be hitched to how you feel about YOU. .
Amen. Gotta detatch completely and not be affected by her or what is going on in her life at all. Easier said than done, but worth the effort nonetheless...and necessary.
sounds like you are doing great! I'm doing horrible - will get back to you soon about the book.
I am less attached that's for sure, but not 'detached' at this point. It's hard to do when we were sleeping together and cuuddling only a few days ago.
I want to be understanding and compassionate after periods like that. Nothing 'codependent.' I don't really like that term. People seem to have a tendency to lean on that and make it sound as selfishness and inconsideration are good and caring about your spouses feelings is some kind of mental disorder when talking about codep.
In my opinion one would have to be going to extremes for that to apply. May be just my view.
that pullback thing they do is the death of me. One or 2 days of happiness and back to the old cold ways.
My wife says i emotionally jack her up, but still wanted to be close and ml and all that. This week is like the second bomb hit again, I guess i shouldn't be surprised but i was.
The waffling is back and forth. I am dreading the MC today. I have a plan today. I am going to act as if at the MC...I am not going to say a peep....and just validate. I will have a sunflower waiting for her at the end of the session.
I hope it goes well.
Validating is good. I've given W flowers and gifts during this and it turned out to be weird.
Validating is always good though.
Good luck with MC. My W won't even try that anymore. She has just decided that we weren't "meant" to work it out.
yet she's still here.
I am dreading the MC today. I have a plan today. I am going to act as if at the MC...I am not going to say a peep....and just validate. I will have a sunflower waiting for her at the end of the session.
I hope it goes well.
My W always seemed to think the worst of our relationship at MC sessions. We would be great a few days before it and I would feel her pull away as the session grew nearer. She would think the M was horrible in the session. Afterward, we would grow closer. This cycle seemed to continue week after week. Has anyone else run into this patterns with MC sessions?
Just wondering.
Yep. Back when we were going my W always pulled away before MC appts too.
W just called me at work. She keeps using S as a reason to call. She told me one of our neighbors stopped by today and had coffee with her. W said the neighbor wanted to check and see how things were going.
I had to fight so hard not to ask..."well, how are things going?"
W has initiated contact with me every day this week. Something's still off. No talk of the condo though. She did mention that she is working at an event this weekend for her GF's kid though. An event that is meant for the parents of the kids..not the friends of the moms of the kids. To steal from Hope4luv...grrrrrrr...
Interesting.
She might be looking for a friend to hear her out or she might be looking for some stability. I am not sure.
Good job biting your tongue.
How ya doing this weekend?
How ya doing this weekend?
I'm pretty detached. Keeping busy.
W had pulled back a lot. I asked her what was going on with her and she told me she's spending some time focusing inward. She doesn't seem to get how her ups and downs affect me.
I was very loving in telling her that I am sorry that she is in this place.
Now I'm getting thoughts of "I deserve better than this." I really haven't been focusing on "us" as much this weekend as usual though.
Just a little more detached.
I checked in over at your thread. Keep up the GALing!
You're doing fine, EB. Hang in there.
I'm with you on "I deserve better than this" thinking. Probably true. Good idea to hold those as goals!
This week is the 1 year anniversary of the big bomb. It's I had said for a long time that a year would be my breaking point. It would be my limit.
Just a week and a half ago we were sleeping in the same bed, hugging and kissing again for a couple of days. Major pullback is here, but still there isn't the anger and distance that there used to be. It seems like we're roommates again.
I wonder how she can sit in the other room, sleep in "her" room, etc and never have the "I miss him, I want to go be with him moments." I wish we could just be open with what is going on.
I'm at a funny place with all of this. Still pretty detached feeling. I want to ask her when she is planning to go. I can't go on like this forever. I really do think that I'm a good catch for someone. It's just too bad that she doesn't think that it's for her.
EB. I think the fact that you have made it a year after the bomb is probably a good sign. Do you think things have been improving the past couple of months? Just wondering.
In your situation, I would almost suggest her leaving. I think that is the only way she is going to truly find out what she is leaving. She hasn't been able to do that yet.
Things have improved on a lot of fronts. She's not going out like she used to, she's not constantly angry, etc. She's still not happy though. I have been identified as the culpret (sp?).
Still very frustrating though. I really wish she would leave for a while. I just wish she wasn't planning on buying a place.
W called a little bit ago to tell me S got in trouble for talking in school today. S was concerned that W was upset. W turned it into some deep seeded 'issue' like she does with everything anymore. It's all aout how her feelings shouldn't be so important to her. He should be more concerned with his own feelings blah, blah, blah. Why the F can't it just be that a little boy got in trouble and doesn
want Mom to be upset with him? Why does everything need to be treated as it's some end of the world psychological issue?
I told her that I thought it was pretty normal for a kid to be concerned when Mom is disappointed. She blew me off and didn't even acknowledge that she heard me so I restated my point in a different way. She got pissed. Once again I am trying to control her into thinking my way.
I can't deal with this insanity any more. There's always drama and deep issues to blame for everything. Control and dependency are at the root of everything. The only 'healthy' people are completely self-centered. If other people matter than you are 'sick.'
WTF?
.
W called a little bit ago to tell me S got in trouble for talking in school today. S was concerned that W was upset. W turned it into some deep seeded 'issue' like she does with everything anymore. It's all aout how her feelings shouldn't be so important to her. He should be more concerned with his own feelings blah, blah, blah. Why the F can't it just be that a little boy got in trouble and doesn
want Mom to be upset with him? Why does everything need to be treated as it's some end of the world psychological issue?
I told her that I thought it was pretty normal for a kid to be concerned when Mom is disappointed. She blew me off and didn't even acknowledge that she heard me so I restated my point in a different way. She got pissed. Once again I am trying to control her into thinking my way.
My guess is that she felt not heard when you "control her into thinking your way" and think things like "blah blah blah." As a woman, this would upset me, and it seems to be a common communication problem between men and women.
I think if you try hearing, validating, and reflecting back to her what she is feeling - she would feel better and not need to blow you off. She might then feel more open to listening to you.
It works with my H. I shut up and listen first. Especially if I'm angry and disagree. It often softens him up to see the other side when he feels heard first.
Really, it's your only hope. Sure it would be great if they heard our feelings first. But do you think they are in any mood for that? No. They are leaving. The only way for them to care at all about how we feel is for us to show our 180's - be very empathetic and open to their feelings and viewpoints.
Thanks Hope. The on again off again stuff is starting to take a toll on me. I'm a bit of an emotional mess, then I'm detached, then trying to be a good understanding husband. She's changing her tune quickly and often too.
It really fry's me when she starts going on about all of the "issues" that have to be at the heart of everything. It's a hot button for me because I am sick of hearing how loving and caring feelings and behaviors are "sick & unhealthy." Wanting to be with someone, doing nice things for your spouse, caring about the feelings of others? These things are all mental disorders according to her. Mind you I'm not talking about taking things to some uber-crazy level of these things, but a level that I feel should be present in a loving dedicated marriage.
It seems that things are starting to progress then we step right back to where we were months ago. She's mentally distant and shut off. She's "protecting" herself. WTF? I've been loving, caring, and understanding and it's still seem as "me against you?"
I just want this crap to be done with. I want to feel like we are on the same side.
The one year anniversary of the bomb being can't be helping either.
It really fry's me when she starts going on about all of the "issues" that have to be at the heart of everything. It's a hot button for me because I am sick of hearing how loving and caring feelings and behaviors are "sick & unhealthy."
Hey man, that's frustration talking, not detachment. I know how you feel. I still have times like that. He!!, I had them over this past weekend while on vacation with my W and kids.
Wanting to be with someone, doing nice things for your spouse, caring about the feelings of others? These things are all mental disorders according to her. Mind you I'm not talking about taking things to some uber-crazy level of these things, but a level that I feel should be present in a loving dedicated marriage.
I agree with you, if you were in a "normal" M, but you're not (no one here short of reconciliation is either). So, if you aren't at the reconciliation stage, why are you expecting her to act a certain way towards you? You can't.
I just want this crap to be done with. I want to feel like we are on the same side.
I understand. I really do b/c I feel that way about my M too. If you are truly done, no one here will hold that against you. Just make sure you are really done. It's ok to have the emotions you have. Just make sure your actions are based on reasoned thought, not emotion. You know the 48 hour rule, right?
The one year anniversary of the bomb being can't be helping either.
Remind me, how long have you been DB'ing? Have you been DB'ing for a year?
If you are just venting, man, that's completely ok - I do it and think this is a great place for that.
I hear a lot of still being attached to your W's moods, still having expectations and frustration in your post. Some of that is normal. Detaching means her moods dont dictate yours. And no expectations means just that - you cannot be disappointed in an outcome if you aren't clinging to another outcome.
GIMA- You're right. Our marriage is not a normal happy marriage at this point. Thanks for the reminder.
I am sure it's the frustration talking. The detached feeling comes and goes. The times of sleeping together, hugging and kissing make it very hard for me to maintain it though.
I read the DR book in July. The bomb was Oct 17 '08. Even though we've been going through this for a year I guess I've only ben DBing for 3 or 4 months.
I'm not ready to give up. I decided in the beginning that love was a decision and I've made my decision. I'm just ventiing I guess.
Thanks for making me think.
Focusing on the positives...I got to snuggle and sleep with my W only a week and a half ago. Can't get much more positive than that!
I read the DR book in July. The bomb was Oct 17 '08. Even though we've been going through this for a year I guess I've only ben DBing for 3 or 4 months.
I'm not ready to give up. I decided in the beginning that love was a decision and I've made my decision. I'm just ventiing I guess.
Bunny,
I've never really followed your sitch, so forgive the uninformed question: have you communicated "I will wait as long as it takes" stance to your wife?
Oh, and you need a stronger name than "Bunny."
Regards,
Puppy
I had initially given myself a year. That's probably why I'm having hard week. As long a it takes? It sounds good but, I will eventually reach a point of stopping if it feels like a dead horse.
Stronger name? Yeah...probably. I started with Giving My All, but then saw GIMA ho was here first. All I could think of was that I am "still going" like the Energizer Bunny the old commercials so that's what I went with. Kind of funny to see it now.
GIMA- You're right. Our marriage is not a normal happy marriage at this point. Thanks for the reminder.
I am sure it's the frustration talking. The detached feeling comes and goes. The times of sleeping together, hugging and kissing make it very hard for me to maintain it though.
I read the DR book in July. The bomb was Oct 17 '08. Even though we've been going through this for a year I guess I've only ben DBing for 3 or 4 months.
I'm not ready to give up. I decided in the beginning that love was a decision and I've made my decision. I'm just ventiing I guess.
Thanks for making me think.
Focusing on the positives...I got to snuggle and sleep with my W only a week and a half ago. Can't get much more positive than that!
My W and I have not slept in the same bed since the bomb, so I can only imagine how confusing that must be for you. If you cannot do that without developing expectations (and I don't know that I could), you may have to put your foot down on that until you are at a place where you can handle it.
It also strikes me that your W is cake eating - she gets to cling to her decision to D, but she gets to keep you when SHE wants you. It's not a two way street right now, and it should be.
While your bomb was about a year ago, realistically, you've only been at this with DB for about the same amount of time as me. Just keep that in mind when you set your goals and monitor your progress.
I know it's not easy, but you can do it. Sounds like tonight or sometime soon would be a good time to ramp up your GAL'ing.
I agree with GIMA. She's cake eating. She really was affected when you started going out and GALing. I would keep this up as much as you possibly can and watch the results.
I've been getting out but not really being mysterious. Hope, you're right. That's when she started noticing.
I thought I would welcome her leaving. When I walked be her on the computer (during our S's birthday party tonight] and saw her looking at houses online (she tried to close it quickly) that rejected feeling came whooshing in.
She has to know I saw, but is acting like I didn't.
I hate the ignoring the elephant in the room stuff.
As for the cake eating, I was really the one that took the lead on the getting 'closer' activities started. She was all too happy to go along with it though.
Some days I do good. others...not so much.
She came in while I was watching TV. She said she wanted to watch that show too. She was playful abt it.
I ended up saying something about not wanting to act like all is well when she is making plans to walk out of our marriage. She said she wasn't looking at houses just now and I was mistaken, but is still planning to go.
I told her I didn't want to act like all is fine when it isn't. I was feeling very rejected. Her response. Sorry. I know it's not fair.
It was 5 or 10 minute conversation so there was more to it, but that covers the main point.
Essentially everything I'm not supposed to do.
Ok. No one's perfect. Just try to learn here and not repeat the same mistake.
I know if it were me, I would have a very difficult time keeping my sanity if my W was both committed to leave and, at the same time, was acting like were were still going to be M'd. If you can handle it, ok. I just don't know how anyone could.
Pulling back in the form of lovingly detaching and GAL'ing would likely help the situation. It might pull her to you and will definitely allow you to build back your self confidence, which I think is a major part of healing.
I think that I need to start worrying more about myself. I have been trying so hard to be a loving, caring, understanding husband so far. I am selfish in the fact that I have wanted to keep our family together and think that it's insane that she doesn't, but I really have been trying to be kind and understanding to her. Afterall, she is my W and I still love her. I vowed love her in good times and bad and I still think that she is very similar to the person that I fell in love with somewhere deep inside. It even comes out every once in a while.
I don't really think that her issues are about me though, so it seems that no matter what I do it doesn't affect her. All it does is drain me.
Last night, as we were talking about how I can't sit there like all is well while she is maing plans to walk out of our marriage, she looked sad, but she has no fear of losing me. Her sadness seems to come from knowing that she is hurting me. She loves me and says that I am a great guy, but she doesn't have that "I can't imagine my life without him" feeling so she knows that she has to go.
The funny thing is that I think she still imagines her life after moving out as pretty much having a clubhouse and us still spending time together. I told her a couple of weeks ago this isn't the case. Once she got the "I'll be happy once I get out of here" thought in her head it seems to be her magic bullet to happiness.
Once again, what makes this so much harder is the fact that we were affectionate just recently. How could she be so loving with me one minute then switch to a "my life will be better without him" thought the next. I couldn't do that personally.
It does seem that I start to move on and that's when she starts to come back around. I'm getting tired of this game of trying to lure my W back to me though. This isn't how marriage is supposed to be.
She's gotten past so many "stages" that moving seems like the only "I have to see if this will make me happy" thing left to do. She's not with GF 24/7 lately (I think GF got a job), she's not drinking heavily like she was months back, she's not out at the bar, constantly on Facebook, looking up Highschool friends, dressing trashy, hangind out at the gym all of the time, spending a ton of money, etc anymore. She's gone through all of this to "find her path," and she's still not happy. Obviously, I can't fix it. I had to give it a shot though and I don't regret trying to help. I realize now that I can't though. It's a very powerless feeling. Very unwanted and rejected feeling too.
All you can do is a live a life that you enjoy. Even in my sitch, I feel like I need to make W happy (or she may move out again). This is not healthy. We need to be loving and caring, but we should not be the source of their happiness. It is too much pressure on us.
Has she seen a doctor. It sounds like it may be depression.
She hasn't seen a doctor. I said something about depression in the beginning. Big mistake (pre DBing) She was telling me that I was the problem and my suggestion made her feel that I was denying my role and saying that she was the one with the problem.
It does fit though.
Not a lot happening.
I told her the night before last that I was uncomfortable with the way things were. It is hard to be chummy with her while she continues to make plans for walking out of our marriage. We are close for a little while, then she backs away. I was clear, telling her as nicely as possible that I was uncomfortable with this and it is getting frustrating for me.
I made plans to be out of the house tonight. She made a point to leave last night. She said that she figured that I would not want to be around her so she was going to do some running around.
She came in to tell me good night before bed, but remains withdrawn. She seems to feel bad for me and bad for what she's doing to our family, but obviously doesn't feel any sense of impending loss for herself. My cousin, who has been through this, says that W knows that she has an open door to come back so she wouldn't really feel that she's losing anything. She's getting to go play and feels that she'll be able to come back whenever she wants.
That's where the detaching and GALing comes in I guess. I can't really tell her that's what I'm noticing and she won't be welcome back (it would send her away with even more of a purpose) but I really need to do a better job of showing her that I am moving on.
Not a lot happening.
I told her the night before last that I was uncomfortable with the way things were. It is hard to be chummy with her while she continues to make plans for walking out of our marriage. We are close for a little while, then she backs away. I was clear, telling her as nicely as possible that I was uncomfortable with this and it is getting frustrating for me.
I made plans to be out of the house tonight. She made a point to leave last night. She said that she figured that I would not want to be around her so she was going to do some running around.
She came in to tell me good night before bed, but remains withdrawn. She seems to feel bad for me and bad for what she's doing to our family, but obviously doesn't feel any sense of impending loss for herself. My cousin, who has been through this, says that W knows that she has an open door to come back so she wouldn't really feel that she's losing anything. She's getting to go play and feels that she'll be able to come back whenever she wants.
That's where the detaching and GALing comes in I guess. I can't really tell her that's what I'm noticing and she won't be welcome back (it would send her away with even more of a purpose) but I really need to do a better job of showing her that I am moving on.
I think that is the right attitude. Maybe you should try to find some single friends that you can hang out with on the weekends. Single people would be more available and it would give her something to think about. She does seem pretty comfortable with the status quo.
I know my W has been looking at rental houses online, but I know that we can't stay in limbo forever so I figured is that she needs to face the reality of moving and really consider whether or not that is what she wants, so the fact that she is looking is OK with me since I know SHE has to make the decision about this and I Can't control her. Just about the only thing that might make her stay is the reality of what leaving means.
The last time my W told me that she wanted to move out and separate a few weeks back I said "OK - what do you need from me to make it happen?" I have also told her that I don't want this so she knows that, so it doesn't come accross to her like I am encouraging her or anything - just that I am indifferent either way.
Since then, she hasn't mentioned moving out and things have been a lot less tense around the house. She is still thinking about it and still looks at real estate here and there, but the fact that I gave in and didn't argue with her about it diffused a lot of tension I think.
You might want to try it if you truly are up to it and believe you will be OK if she leaves. You might not be there yet I realize, but focus on the fact that at the end of the day, your W needs to 'choose' to be with you, and the fact that you want her to stay and still love her probably isn't going to be a deciding factor in the situation. It is all her. She won't choose you unless she thinks you are moving on most likely. If you get to the point where you realize you don't want to be with someone who doesn't choose to be with you then you will detatch enough to successfully do this most likely.
I know that is what hit me over the head one day and caused a shift in my attitude.
Trying - you are dead on. I am completely get what you are saying and I finally had that day a little over a month ago. I told her that I accepted that she was moving. I made up my mind, that I would GAL and I started to.
The issue in my case is that W started coming back around. We spent weeks being affectionate, and occasionally LMing and sleeping in the same bed. While this was going on, she was still moving forward with her plans to move out. I was having a hard time hanging out on the couch watching TV with her, talking about what we're doing this weekend, and hugging good night (she's back in "her" room now) while she went out looking at realestate during the day.
I want to have this time to rekindle our connection, but I don't want to be "too good" with her leaving. I want her to choose me because she wants to be with me. She doesn't seem to see it as a choice right now though. She seems to think that she can have the freedom of being a single woman and still have me waiting in the wings for her at the same time. That's my dilemma.
Do I take the closeness and remain supportive or show her that she is losing me?
I think that is the right attitude. Maybe you should try to find some single friends that you can hang out with on the weekends. Single people would be more available and it would give her something to think about. She does seem pretty comfortable with the status quo.
She does seem pretty comfortable. She's had all of the power. I hate that it comes to that, but that's a pretty accurate description.
I still say there's a lot of MLC type stuff with her. She says she loves me and will miss me. She has the ability to be affectionate with me. She doesn't want to leave her home or put our son through this. She just says this is something she has to do. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Hanging out with single people? There's a thought. Just not telling her who I am with at all is another
Do I take the closeness and remain supportive or show her that she is losing me?
I hate to say it, but I vote for plan B!!! She has responded when you show her she is losing you - and has moved out when you have been supportive and available.
I say this as someone struggling to do this in my own sitch, so I'm not saying it's easy. It is counter intuitive, but it's all that will work. We must be strong and show we are moving on for them to get it and finally make a choice one way or the other.
How about that scrabble game?
She seems to think that she can have the freedom of being a single woman and still have me waiting in the wings for her at the same time. That's my dilemma.
Do I take the closeness and remain supportive or show her that she is losing me?
This is called cake-eating. Don't let her do it.
How about that scrabble game?
I just signed up at
http://word-games.pogo.com/My screen name there is Paperboy75.
I just got around to this article. I just so happened to have bough this book a few weeks ago. I have mixed thoughts on it. Some god things, some things that realy don't seem to fit my situation, but good to know.
I spent Friday night out and got home at around 11:30. W came home from dinner with her GF literally as I was getting out of the car. She had S with her. (her was at the GF’s house with her kids and her husband).
W seems pretty comfortable being roommates.
Saturday morning, I asked W if she minded if I took S out for the day. She said no. I didn’t tell her of my plans, I just went. S and I met a friend of mine and his D and we went to a pumpkin festival for the day. It was fun, but still felt like something we should be doing as a family. I took lots of pictures and video. I even shared them with W when we got back home. She’s supposedly still planning on moving, but seems very comfortable with the way things are now. She swings from being buddies to being snippy frequently.
I am pulling away from her this time. I’ve felt awkward wearing my ring lately. Kind of like a needy beggar. She’s had hers off a number of times throughout this. This time since early July. I took mine off for the weekend. Nothing was said about it.
It’s still like she doesn’t get it. She still talks to me like we’re pals. When any kind of R talk comes up, she seems to feel bad about how things are, but isn’t changing her plans. She’s racked with guilt, but has an odd justification. It’s all very logical and noble to her. It’s hard to follow for me. She anger isn’t really there much any more. Not like it used to be. She’ not with the GF all of the time like she had been. It’s more of a “normal” level now. She admits to loving me and even feeling that “in love” feeling with me a couple of weeks ago. She still has to go in search of her happiness though.
S needed pictures that describe him for a school project. W asked me to help pick them out last night. It was very surreal as she was saying “I like the ones from Disney last year,” or “get a nice family one of all three of us from your cousin’s lake house.”
She can be so detached. She seems to forget where we are a lot lately. She acts like all is normal sometimes. It’s hard to go along with.
I was really distant, but friendly this weekend. I’ve finally found a good mix. I did give in and give her a hug before bed last night (I initiated). She came out of her “buddy” shell for a few minutes. She held me tight and kept holding even after I let go. I didn’t say a word. I just gave a quick smile and nod and went to bed when she let go.
EB. I think I understand where you are. The way your W is treating you is similiar to the way W treated me. The difference is that there is no evidence of an OM in your sitch (which is a big difference).
I think you are handling it well. I think the only thing you can do is continue to GAL (like you are) and try not to pursue. However, I think it is important to be there when she needs you. These will come up from time to time. I know this is a very hard balance to mantain. Have patience, I think you are doing a good job.
About the ring, I would not take it off to make a point. For example, if she started wearing her's again, would you put yours back on? If the answer is yes, then I would say you should just keep wearing it. You don't want her to have that type of control over you. That is just my opinion.
Take care.
Your opinion is, as always, appreciated.
Yes, I would happily wear it then. It just seems to have lost some of it's meaning at this point. It's not so much to make a point to her, but something is just different. Wedding rings are like the Wonder Twins rings to me. Useless alone. They get their power when the two are put together.
It's back on now.
I'm trying to be there for her. That's just the kind of guy I am. I still love her and want things to work. Something's different lately though. That's for sure.
I just got around to this article. I just so happened to have bough this book a few weeks ago. I have mixed thoughts on it. Some god things, some things that realy don't seem to fit my situation, but good to know.
I just read through this, which is the same stuff from the book. It must have hit me at a better time now though. It was good to read.
Thanks Hope.
I stopped and picked up takeout dinner on the way home tonight. W was appreciative. She seemed sad though. I didn't think she had any emotions anymore.
I walked over and gave her a quick peck on the cheek and she said thanks. She got more sad and distant through dinner though.
Now she's at the neighbor's house. She's all depressed again. She didn't even come home to tell S good night. She called. (I answered and she told me she was having an emotional night).
S is sad now too. When tucking him in he said he asked her if she was still moving out a couple of weeks ago. She told him yes. He never talks aout this, but is worrying about it now for sure. (I comforted him the best I could)
I feel bad for her, but I'm not forcing her to stay. It's pretty insulting that being with me is so depressing.
I wish she wasn't hurting, but these nights don't freak me out like they used to. I guess I've started to accept that I am a dead man walking.
It's pretty insulting that being with me is so depressing.
Hmmm, are you perhaps taking her depression too personally? Even if that's what she's saying, it's most likely not the case. Depression is much more about what's going on inside a person, including on a biochemical level, than about who they're with.
For a clearer statement - her depression isn't about you.
For a clearer statement - her depression isn't about you.
I know that...and you know that...but W? W blames being "trapped" in our marriage as the source for her unhappiness.
That's the insulting part.
I get that it's crap. Sure, I could have been a better partner. I tried hard but made mistakes. I still try hard. It hurts to be told that I am the source of all that is wrong with W.
I wish she would consider the possibility that depression or MLC could be playing a role here.
Ok, so you're stung by the accusation even though you know it isn't true? Yeah, I can see how that would get to a person.
Try your darnedest to let go of it, though. It will help with the resentment I think I'm hearing.
She's goofy right now, and it's not about you. You might need to repeat it a few times when things get rough.
W made a point to stick her head in and tell me good night when she came home Monday night. It wasn't too late , maybe 10 o'clock. I didn't get up, just said good night back and went to bed.
I called her yesterday at about lunch time. I told her I called just to see if she was OK since she was obviously having an emotional evening the previous day. She was GREAT today. Over the top happy. WFT? This crap is really getting old. Depressed, giddy, or acting like all is normal. Never dealing with anything.
As it turns out, she went to the neighbor's house (one we are friends with, but not womeone she is overly close to) and the neighbor and her kids left after W was there for only a little while. W stayed at the neighbor's house for hours by herself! That strikes me as so odd! W thanked me for calling to check on her and said she was fine today.
Last night I stayed out until around 9:30. W was chatty asking about my day when I got home. I told her a little, was distand and went to watch TV by myself. After a little while, W said she was going for a walk. This stuff again? At 10 o'clock at night? Whatever. I said "have a nice walk" and went to bed.
I woke up around midnight and she wasn't home yet. Yes...I called her cell to check on her. She said it was such a nice night for a walk (60 degrees here last night). She seemed like all was well with the world again.
This morning she was up when I left for work. I didn't say goodbye so she called me on my drive in to call me out on it.
She seems to be back to the "I don't want to be here but would feel guilty leaving" stage.
I'm so tired of all of this anymore. I have a ton of resentment built up from her actions from this past year. I just want a wife that WANTS me, loves me, and is my partner in life. I don't want her to be with me out of obligation.
I have a ton of resentment built up from her actions from this past year. I just want a wife that WANTS me, loves me, and is my partner in life. I don't want her to be with me out of obligation.
Hi EB. This is bad. I am not saying that it isn't normal or isn't unwarranted, but it is bad for you and your relationship with your W. You need to find a way to get this anger, hurt, & resentment out in a healthy manner. I struggle with this too. For me, talking it over with a friend, excercise (especially stuff with physical contact), and praying help.
As for the depression, she doesn't understand it and projects it onto the people that are closest to her (unfortunately, that is you). I think you feel that you need to fix it; you don't. This is her issue. I would suggest more GAL'ing. However, you don't need to be distant. This is very hard balance to obtain. Have you read the thread on detachment? It is helpful in this concept.
Sorry i've been MIA this weekend - big week for me. Sounds like you're tired of the back and forth. I'm with you. I actually support distance. It's working for me - at least so that H can't affect my emotionas negatively anymore. I also am not obssessing as much on how to win him back.
And grieving. It's hard, but you must do it. Pull back and face the possibility of it ending and then when you are prepared for that you know you can handle anything.
Hey EB...like H4L says, the distance will probably improve your situation and also how you view everything. It has for me. And it is tough - but tougher then the back and forth you have going on right now?
I've tried to just take a break from constantly working on things in my M over the past few days. I haven't spend as much time on here and just made sure to get out of the house, do some things with friends and spend time with my S.
I've really let things kind of go with W.
You're right Tristan. There is a lot of resentment at this point. I don't want someone who treats me like she does. I've begun to accept this.
So...Saturday, after being very roommate-like with W for the past week or so W came over to my Grandma's house (which my cousin and I have been working on for over 2 months)to see me and how things are going over there. That surprized everyone ofer there. I was nice and pleasant, but didn't get all excited and greet her like a puppy dog anymore. She initiated a hug with me before she left.
Than last night, she came into "my" room and watched TV with me for a few hours before sleeping. She even initiated some quick snuggling and kissed me.
She seemed interested in more and I didn't play along.
It felt really nice, but I'm glad that I didn't "put out" believe it or not. What a weird thing for a guy to say.
It's great you didn't bite and continue the back and forth with her. She's going to see your changes. I know it must have felt good that she was pursuing you. But then it sets you up to feel more upset when she still insists on leaving.
How about telling her straight "If you are leaving, I don't want you trying to be affectionate with me or coming into my space without asking. If you want to separate, let's separate."
How about putting up that boundary to protect yourself. She won't see that ocming, and it will make her face the reality of her choices.
I don't know if I need to have a conversation with her and lay things out or just keep moving away from her.
She was back to distant and doing her own thing yesterday. It's almost clinical between us sometimes. When we kissed the day before last, it felt good and it was obvious there is still something there, but it's definitely not what it was. (I don't expect it to be either). I don't know that I want to fight for it anymore though. I want someone who WANTS me. Not this. Not someone who is up and down. Not someone who would leave and break up our family. Not someone who would treat me the way that she has treated me.
I keep having the internal monologue of what a R conversation would sound like. Would I tell her I need more? Would I just ask her when she is moving? Would I just ask her to go? Would I just tell her that I am done? I'm not sure.
Would I expect this to shock her into staying? Not really.
Would I be sad to see her go? Sure, but it may be necessary.
Am I realy to move on with my life? That's a tough one. It may be better than what it is now though.
At this point, I will continue to move on without saying anything. It's been months since she said she was moving. Weeks since I've heard anything about it. It's just hanging there.
Any advice on having the talk or just moving on without saying anything would be appreciated.
Would I expect this to shock her into staying? Not really.
Would I be sad to see her go? Sure, but it may be necessary.
Am I realy to move on with my life? That's a tough one. It may be better than what it is now though.
EB. These are great questions to contemplate. Especially the last one. My IC kept asking me questions similiar to these. I never got to the point that I was ready to move on. However, I was working hard to get to the place where I would be comfortable moving on.
I don't think you need to have the R talk until you
know you are ready to move on without her. If you do it too soon, you may regret it. You need to go into that talk ready to lose the R.
Am I ready to move on with my life?
What are your options?
stand still, wait = slow death
Move on--- to where? How do you get there and be a better man for it? How much control do you really have of the outcomes? How much control do you have on how you handle the situations?
Work backward from your goals to where you are now. Then plan and act.
EB,
We both seem to be at a similar, if not identical, place. Coach's points are perfect.
I am watching here.
Am I ready to move on with my life?
What are your options?
stand still, wait = slow death
Move on--- to where? How do you get there and be a better man for it? How much control do you really have of the outcomes? How much control do you have on how you handle the situations?
Work backward from your goals to where you are now. Then plan and act.
I need to take some time and reevaluate my goals I guess. The quick response is that I want a happy, satisfying relationship with W. I want my S to have both parents and a loving home to grow up with. Both of these require that I detach, but not give up.
Standing still feels like a slow death, but is it really? The hurtful and MLC behavior from W hasn't been around in a while. We're not working on fixing things though. I have grown resentful and try to fill my tank with S, friends, and family. There are just some needs that they cannot meet though.
It feels like standing still, but I can see that there has been change. Things aren't really where they were 6 months ago. Even 2 months ago. Things are different for me too. I don't think my overal goals have changed, but they seem harder to achieve now. I think that I will have a harder time getting over how she has been. How she has devalued our marriage.
Apparently I am not as sure as I thought about things. I need to just continue to get a life and hold off on the conversations for now.
How much control do I have? Only control over my own actions. I don't seem to have full control over my own feelings though.
Coach - Thanks for checking in.
GIMA - Sorry to see how things are going at your place at the moment. I keep up with your sitch, but sometimes I don't feel qualified to offer any advice. Obviously I can't quite firure out things for myself. I offer support and understanding though.
Tristan - I know you've got things to sork on still, but I still think that you're in so much better of a place now. Good for you!
Thanks buddy.
Coach is spot on here. And especially about the part of limboland being a slow death - IT IS.
If you haven't checked out my thread since Thursday, I would encourage you to do that. I just can't take limboland any more. And, it's time for me to lead us out of that God awful place. Limboland serves a purpose sort of like a medic. If you have a gaping head wound, a medic can get you stabilized, but you are going to need to move past that point to a doctor for surgery.
While Limboland is comfortable and to some extent vaguely secure, it is an illusion. And it is not sustainable, unless you want an unhealthy R. And you deserve better.
So, I don't know where I'm leading my M, but it sure as he!! isn't staying in Limboland. And one way or the other, I will be happy eventually.
And, yes, it is scary b/c it is new to you and you know what one of the two possibilities are. But, that's just where you have to have faith and be strong. And, my friend, that is what I think makes the question "What choice do you have?" so important.
Lead.
Thanks buddy.
Coach is spot on here. And especially about the part of limboland being a slow death - IT IS.
If you haven't checked out my thread since Thursday, I would encourage you to do that. I just can't take limboland any more. And, it's time for me to lead us out of that God awful place. Limboland serves a purpose sort of like a medic. If you have a gaping head wound, a medic can get you stabilized, but you are going to need to move past that point to a doctor for surgery.
While Limboland is comfortable and to some extent vaguely secure, it is an illusion. And it is not sustainable, unless you want an unhealthy R. And you deserve better.
So, I don't know where I'm leading my M, but it sure as he!! isn't staying in Limboland. And one way or the other, I will be happy eventually.
And, yes, it is scary b/c it is new to you and you know what one of the two possibilities are. But, that's just where you have to have faith and be strong. And, my friend, that is what I think makes the question "What choice do you have?" so important.
Lead.
I understand you GIMA, but doesn't patience fit in here someplace. EB has made changes, he has seen improvement in his sitch. Is not one of his options to sit tight, keep working on himself, and see if the improvement continues (even if it is ever so slowly). The improvement he has seen lately is in the direction of his ultimate goal. As of now, it would seem that time is working for him. Am I wrong EB?
Tristan,
Very good point. There is a judgment call only EB can make about whether he and W are "stuck" in limboland or not. I had to make that call, and, while I didn't get the response I hoped for, at least I now have confirmation W hasn't changed.
So, EB, do examine whether you are just impatient v. stuck. Monitor her behavior, and her words to a lesser extent. If you see things continuing to improve, than just be patient. If not for a while, then it may be time to look at whether you are stuck.
I understand you GIMA, but doesn't patience fit in here someplace. EB has made changes, he has seen improvement in his sitch. Is not one of his options to sit tight, keep working on himself, and see if the improvement continues (even if it is ever so slowly). The improvement he has seen lately is in the direction of his ultimate goal. As of now, it would seem that time is working for him. Am I wrong EB?
sit tight/limboland/the waiting place are all places where you wait for someone else to get you out of the hole.
I advocate moving forward for your own good. Travelling the parallel paths of reconciliation and divorce and preparing to thrive the best you can under either outcome. Patience is most definetely needed but time is relative. It's what you do with the time.
Patience is the companion of wisdom. - St Augustine
When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity. - Albert Einstein
Cheers
sit tight/limboland/the waiting place are all places where you wait for someone else to get you out of the hole.
Cheers
I like the reference to Dr. Seuss. Was given the book as a graduation present many years back.
When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity. - Albert Einstein
How do you determine if the stove is too hot in this situation?
How do you determine if the stove is too hot in this situation?
The smell of burning flesh.
Well, I'm not burning right now so I'll hold tight. I'm actually just getting a life. W seems to notice, but it's not really about that for me lately.
W doesn't mention moving, and occasionally even moves toward me. This isn't what I want out of a M though and she still seems to have no interest in working on it. I have let resentment build and as I mentioned the tank is empty. The urge is to ask her, "so, how's the house search coming?" I'm just leaving it alone for a litle longer though.
I'm going to start going to the gym at night after S goes to bed.
W didn't care about me moving on early on in our sitch. She seemed to welcome it. She was really indifferent. Her going out and hanging with her GF has really slowed in the past couple of months though while my GAL activities have really grown. She is very curious where I am and what I am doing now. She didn't care at all a few months ago. Interesting. I don't hang my hat on it anymore, but it's still interesting.
I'll hold off on the conversations for a bit longer, but I'm not putting my life on hold anymore.
Travelling the parallel paths of reconciliation and divorce and preparing to thrive the best you can under either outcome.
This is such perfect advice; I know I am working on this paradoxical path as well.
Travelling the parallel paths of reconciliation and divorce and preparing to thrive the best you can under either outcome.
This is such perfect advice; I know I am working on this paradoxical path as well.
Yep!
I spent last night at home with W and S. I stopped at the store and picked up come cider and donuts for dessert after dinner. (ended up breaking into them before dinner). I had fun spending time with S. We made a project and worked on his homework together.
W called me a couple of times yesterday. She came up with reasons, but essentially just to tell me about her day and ask about mine. She followed me upstairs after I got home from work just to ask for a hug too.
I'm just not feeling it right now though.
Of course, I hugged her back, and was pleasant on the phone when she called. I took the dog for a long walk after S went to bed. W waited up for me to return and was asleep on the couch when we got back.
I am going back to work on my G'ma's house tonight. I'm enjoying myself more over there lately.
I'm feeling very detached, but maintain the fact that love is a choice, not a feeling. I am receptive to her as I don't want to turn her away, but I'm definitely different over the past couple of weeks.
I am receptive to her as I don't want to turn her away, but I'm definitely different over the past couple of weeks.
And SHE can probably sense that. But, you know that's not the point.
Keep doing what you are doing...for yourself. You sound good.
Keep doing what you are doing...for yourself. You sound good.
I agree, you sound like you are doing very well.
wow, I'm so impressed. You and I both have done a turn around = living life for us. THANK GOD, EH?
And both our Spouses are noticing and changing.
And that's just icing on the cake. We are stronger.
Hope - I've been keeping up with your thread and it seems that we are both making some changes. Good for us huh? It also seems like we both have setbacks now and then too though.
As I was out working on G'ma's house yesterday W called and something hit me funny. (She's back to giddy happy now.) She didn't really say or do anything significant, but she acts like all is normal...for buddies, not husband and wife. Something hit me though. That kick to the gut feeling just came back for a couple of hours.
I hate that feeling.
Hope - I've been keeping up with your thread and it seems that we are both making some changes. Good for us huh? It also seems like we both have setbacks now and then too though.
As I was out working on G'ma's house yesterday W called and something hit me funny. (She's back to giddy happy now.) She didn't really say or do anything significant, but she acts like all is normal...for buddies, not husband and wife. Something hit me though. That kick to the gut feeling just came back for a couple of hours.
I hate that feeling.
So, what is the core reason you are having that feeling?
Is that reason a reasonable thought/position?
If not, then your thought needs to change to a reasonable one, and your emotions will follow.
Thought drives emotion, not the other way around. I suspect your W's attitude triggered a thought in you that triggered your negative emotion.
I agree with GIMA, I didn't read in your post any reason for the "kick in the gut" feeling. Friendship is a very very important part of a marriage. Truthfully, I believe that it was what my W missed the most when we were seperated. "Buddy status" is good. It allows for communication to build back a marriage. Good stuff is goin on for you. Focus on that. The successful ones on this board are the ones that look at the positive parts of their situation.
My H also was acting like friends again last night. It was amazing. He offered me a beer and took a walk to the store for some ice cream. I think these are really good. And just enjoy it without pressure, while still keeping focus on your independent life.
BTW I'm still trying to figure out how to use pogo.com so we can play a game or two!
There was no reason for the feeling really. Just one of those "wow, this is really happening" moments. It felt like this will be our interactions from now on. We'll only talk if it's regarding S.
I'm having a hard time wanting to be her friend right now. Still feeling somewhat resentful. It's hard to be someone's "buddy" when they treat you like @!#$. I know I need to work through it, but that's what I am dealing with.
I'm having a hard time wanting to be her friend right now. Still feeling somewhat resentful. It's hard to be someone's "buddy" when they treat you like @!#$. I know I need to work through it, but that's what I am dealing with.
Being able to forgive and detach does not meaning that you must remain their friend, or best buddies.
Over time, your relationship may normalize around being the best parents you can for your son and being civil for his sake. That's not a bad thing.
I'm with you EB. Not on the resentment but being her friend is not meeting my needs. Seems like a waste of my time.
I'm having a hard time wanting to be her friend right now. Still feeling somewhat resentful. It's hard to be someone's "buddy" when they treat you like @!#$. I know I need to work through it, but that's what I am dealing with.
Being able to forgive and detach does not meaning that you must remain their friend, or best buddies.
Over time, your relationship may normalize around being the best parents you can for your son and being civil for his sake. That's not a bad thing.
Yep.
I think your right Trent. God only knows how long that will take.
I broke down and kissed her after she got p!ssed at me.
That brought her around for a minute.
Then I left the room...leaving her wanting more...
There's a reason I named me thread "Ups and Downs"
Wow! There is a pair of giblets!
Did I miss something? Why was she pissed?
I'm with you EB. Not on the resentment but being her friend is not meeting my needs. Seems like a waste of my time.
Count me in on this, too. Friends would never do or say a fraction of what my wife has and if they did, they'd no longer be friends. No interest in being friends with her.
Did I miss something? Why was she pissed?
I had the afternoon off of work. I was at home looking forward to spending the evening with our son and received a text from W at 3:00 that they were going to be out until after dinner. It was unplanned and she knew I was home.
I didn't respond so she called. I told her that I thought this was inconsiderate and she threw a fit about me spending so much time out of the house recently (littlle smile) so she is going to too. I pointed out that I haven't taken S without notice and haven't done anything that would effect her. She got pissed and hung up. She was still distant when they got home 3 or 3 1/2 hrs later.
I went in the other room where she was and planted one on her. She kissed back and it was hot and heavy for a few minutes. I stood up, said thanks, and left the room.
Wow! There is a pair of giblets!
I was thinking about what Coach always says...I've accepted that I'm already dead.
What's she going to do? Leave me? She's already doing that.
Anyway...later after S went to bed she...um...initiated...um...well, she apparently liked the kiss. She was good to me.
She'll probably be totally distant tomorrow, but it was a nice night tonight
Friends would never do or say a fraction of what my wife has and if they did, they'd no longer be friends. No interest in being friends with her.
"So I've treated you like garbage, caused you more pain and suffering than anyone else ever could, I'm pulling your family apart, disrespecting you, and like to make you cry.
Wanna be my buddy?"
Friends would never do or say a fraction of what my wife has and if they did, they'd no longer be friends. No interest in being friends with her.
"So I've treated you like garbage, caused you more pain and suffering than anyone else ever could, I'm pulling your family apart, disrespecting you, and like to make you cry.
Wanna be my buddy?"
Yeah, I think that about sums it up.
I went in the other room where she was and planted one on her. She kissed back and it was hot and heavy for a few minutes. I stood up, said thanks, and left the room.
Why would you "reward" her temper tantrum? Sounds like keeping her in cake eating mode. Sorry for being blunt.
I think a stronger response might be more along the lines of your little smile and just walking away.
Why would you "reward" her temper tantrum? Sounds like keeping her in cake eating mode. Sorry for being blunt.
I think a stronger response might be more along the lines of your little smile and just walking away.
It was just somethng I wanted to do. It was a reward for me too.
Why would you "reward" her temper tantrum? Sounds like keeping her in cake eating mode. Sorry for being blunt.
I think a stronger response might be more along the lines of your little smile and just walking away.
It was just somethng I wanted to do. It was a reward for me too.
EB,
Can YOU handle this? That's really the question. I don't think I could. If this woman has said she is not interested in being M'd to me, then why would I want her to have sex with me? I understand going without, believe me. And that is difficult.
But, if you are truly able to handle this without any of your emotions being stoked, then good.
Just be very careful. I agree with Hope that this IS cake eating on your W's part. It may also be a form of her exerting control over you. She gives you a little here and there to keep you in the game and interested in her.
Again, I'm not telling you NOT to do this, just make sure you aren't emotionally affected by it. And that, well, that would be tough to avoid.
I completely get it. You're right. It's a hard thing to deal with and I don't get it either.
She wanted to be close and so did I. I'm not sure what to make of it though.
I've been wanting to tell her to put her ring on and start working on our M or leave. I need more than this. I still am leaning toward that...even after last night.
I completely get it. You're right. It's a hard thing to deal with and I don't get it either.
She wanted to be close and so did I. I'm not sure what to make of it though.
I've been wanting to tell her to put her ring on and start working on our M or leave. I need more than this. I still am leaning toward that...even after last night.
Good for you, man. I cannot sit here and tell you I could/would fend that off if W did that to me.
But, the key is being self-aware to the point of being to say to yourself whether you can honestly handle it.
You can, and are, handling the sitch, as Coach says. But this is different.
Just be careful and be very self-aware and honest with yourself.
I am having a bit of a hard time this morning with it. She's as cold as ever.
At least I knew it was coming. Still doesn't make it easy though.
Can u pinpoint why you are down? I mean the base of it, the core?
Is the reason you are down a rational thought?
If not, change your thought.
And you will be surprised that your emotions will follow.
I just start feeling good being closer to her for a few hours then reality hits me. It's not that bad though. I have accepted the potential outcomes. Accepted...but it doesn't mean I am looking forward to reality.
I'll be OK either way.
We had some R talk tonight. It was either that or I was asking her to leave.
It was uncomfortable but we ended it with a hug.
Now she's at her GF's halloween party
We had some R talk tonight. It was either that or I was asking her to leave.
It was uncomfortable but we ended it with a hug.
Now she's at her GF's halloween party
What was the jist of the R talk?
I'm travelling and having a hard time getting around to catching up on here.
The conversation was kind of all over the place and was a lot of the old stuff. She hates that when I do something that she doesn't like or when we disagree, I explan myself, my thoughts, and my actions. It seems pretty clear to me that this is how communication works. She said it invalidates her.
I can ask her point of view and can even give concessions, but if I don't tell her that she is full on right it sets her defensive against me. She did say this time that she looks forward to when she doesn't feel so defensive against me though. That's something.
When we have had disagreements I generally reach out to her and tell her why I feel the way that I do. Her response it to "show me," to get defensive. Her defensiveness escallates my need to feel heard and I explan myself more. It's a horrible cycle.
She's still defensive and feels attacked every time I talk it seems. Example: I may want her to bring S home after school so I can spend time with him...she brings him to her GF's house. I tell her that I wish she had let me know she was going to do this because it affects my plans and I would like to see S. She goes off the deep end about how I am controlling her and don't want her to have friends. Huh? What? If I try to tell her my reasons, she says I am trying to "talk the issue away," and invalidate her.
Believe it or not, it was a very calm conversation. I led. I always lead. We ended it with a hug.
There have been a few hugs and kisses here and there since. She was feeling sick Sunday and Monday so I made sure to get her things from the store and take care of S. I gave her lots of space too. She even approached me that night to thank me and give me some hugs and she's texted me a few times over the past couple of days that I have been out of town.
We've been through these ups and downs before though so I am finding myself not reading too much into it. Afterall, she did go to her GF's (God I hate that relationship) Halloween party until 1:30 the other night.
She has 1/2 a foot in, which is better than it was I guess.
Not much interaction with her today. I am out of town. She had S call me this morning and she texted me to have a good day. That was nice.
I called to tell S good night this evening and talked to her long enough to ask how she was and tell her g'night too. I sent her a message about a TV show that she liked being on, but not much chatting.
Every time I have started to detach, we start to get closer and my little shell fades away. It's hard to be detached from someone who has slept with me, hugged me, kissed me, told me she loves me (yep, that came out of her mouth in a weird way a few days ago...kind of a believe it or not, I still LY kind of thing) and wishes me a good day.
Now I am in a hotel room kind of lonely. In the past I would have called her and we would have stayed on the phone for most of the evening. We'd call back and forth and hear about eachother's day.
I want that relationship again. I guess the question is, can I have it with her?
Well, detaching from her actions and choices doesn't mean you can just shut off what you feel about her, given your shared history.
Draw the distinction. Yeah, it's hard. Whoever coulda guessed there would be so many hard knocks in that particular limbo land you're in now eh?
I do remember my W then (see, I had to consciously think about typing W or WAW, she was waffling around in the fog still then), texting me "I kinda miss you". Me - "kinda?". "Yeah, kinda". Like, WTH does that mean eh? It's probably a positive thing, but detach, detach, it'll be great if it is and she walks on that path, and it'll be ok if not.
Thanks Deep.
Always nice to hear from someone who made it.
It's been a bit since I have checked in here.
I'm just tired. We've been living parallel lives. I've been getting out more, she has been home every night. Moving, reconsiling, none of it has come up in a while. W has come in and slept in our bed with me a couple of times over the recent weeks. There has been some affecction on and off. When I traveled last week, W kept coming up with reasons to text and call me. Nothing significant, just little superficial reasons.
When I got home last night, she made dinner and was open to a little affection. (a couple of kisses). I asked her if she had seen a movie that I heard about and she said that if I went and rented it, she would watch it with me. (You're all thinking good things right?) A little over 1/2 way through the movie, she asked me to stop the movie since we had to talk. She had gone out that day and signed paperwork on her new place. Huh? WTF?
...But wait...there's more... She said that I would have to sign on some of the paperwork. I'd have to sign something that said I would be taking financial responsibility for paying for our current assets otherwise she couldn't get financing.
I told her that I was not comfortable with that. She said she had already put ernest money down and would lose it. (well...that wasn't a good decision on her part in my opinion)She got upset and said she would have to rent then.
She went on about how she'll never feel like an equal partner with me if she stays. She made it sound as if she actually wanted things to work with us and that she sees going away as the medicine she needs to want to be here. I told her that I am sorry that we are here. She cried and apologized a lot. Not for any of the specific things that she has done over the past year, just for the situation.
I did tell her that I have tried very hard and have been very insulted by her actions. She said she has seen my changes and my effort, but still feels the way she feels. I asked her if I should still wear my ring. She wouldn't answer with anything other than she doesn't want me to be alone forever. That sparked me to ask if she would be OK seeing me with someone else. She said she wouldn't be OK with it, but understands that may happen.
She was falling apart just a little bit into the conversation. I wrapped my arms around her. She told me she didn't deserve my comfort. I told her that she was my wife and I wasn't going to leave her crying and alone.
I did tell her though that when she moves, we will not be a part of eachother's life anymore. We will interact on matters of our S only. I will see her when it's time to pick him up. I will not come to her place. I will help her move and then will not come to "her" place. She really didn't seem to like this and asked if that's how I really wanted things. I told her that's all I could handle.
I didn't cry. I didn't ask her to stay. I did tell her that I was sorry for things that have been said and done in the past, but I think they have been more than addressed. I agreed that more would have to be done and told her that I don't feel that moving out is the way to make things better.
She cried and told me she was sorry for "failing me" and that she felt like such a failure. It was hard to hear her say those things.
It was a lot longer conversation than just what I covered here. It was strange to hear some of her perspective of things that have happened over this time. So different than mine.
I am so tired.
I am sorry EB. Hang in there. I don't think you should sign those papers either. She is not making you an equal partner by putting substantial money down without asking if you would approve of your part. Seriously, could the 2 of you afford to keep both houses through a divorce? Just wondering.
(((EB)))
I agree with Tristan, don't sign.
Thanks for checking in guys. And for the hug.
In theory we could afford both places, but that's if we never spent money on anything else and never always made at least what we do right now.
No toys. No vacations. No dinners out...then we should be able to swing it. In theory.
I emailed her to ask if she is OK this morning. She said she's emotional and having a hard time. She was appreciative and said I was too good to her.
She has said multiple times that I am too good for her or that I deserve better. That's so weird.
I emailed her to ask if she is OK this morning. She said she's emotional and having a hard time. She was appreciative and said I was too good to her.
She has said multiple times that I am too good for her or that I deserve better. That's so weird.
I heard similiar things a lot.
She's just so messed up. It's hard to be angry with her. I feel bad for her.
She has talked about this need to leave since the beginning. I still think she needs to go before she will want to come back. She hasn't had that send of loss. It would be hard for her to swallow her pride to come back after she's gone though.
What a weird couple of days. She just won't drop the signing of the paper. She says stuff about what I am doing to her. Then she would just go file then since I am backing her into that corner. What?
I told her that I can't control what she does and if she is planning to do it anyways she may as well do it now as I am u unwilling to live like this anymore.
She's back to ultra angry. What swings. I stayed very calm.
I feel done.
What a weird couple of days. She just won't drop the signing of the paper. She says stuff about what I am doing to her. Then she would just go file then since I am backing her into that corner. What?
I told her that I can't control what she does and if she is planning to do it anyways she may as well do it now as I am u unwilling to live like this anymore.
She's back to ultra angry. What swings. I stayed very calm.
I feel done.
Pssst. You can't win an argument with someone who is unreasonable. So, why try?
W, while I have a different opinion about what we should do with our M, I accept the fact you do not wish to work on the M. So, you are free to get an apartment. In fact, I have decided it would be best for you to do that. But, I will not fund your decision by signing the paper. And given the circumstances, it is not fair for you to ask me to do that. If I were the one who wanted a D, I would not ask you to sign papers like these.
Don't fight her. But, you don't have to enable her either.
Hi EB
I've never commented on your sitch before. I am only starting this journey (5 weeks) but I do understand how hard it is to try to detach and it feels like W gives you hope, only to dash it again.
I started detaching from Monday again, W has not phoned me for long time, I was at friends last night, she phoned me to let my S speak to me(he did not want to so he did not ask her to phone me), then she phoned me today to see what she must get for dinner. Although these are small things they start to give me hope, but then I remember that she told me on Monday she has made her decision and our paths will part.
Just wishing you strength, I know I need as much as I can get!
I would agree she needs to get an apt or someone on her own. Only way I can see you getting out of this limbo land. I would definitely not sign as you may become liable for any debts she would incur and she needs to have that responsibility.
Thanks for stopping by guys. I indeed tell her that I thought it best that she go. I cannot live like this any longer. She is adamant that she does not want an apartment. She wants a house or condo. Although I can see how this makes sense to her I do feel that is unreasonable.
It was clear she feels I am trying to control her. I said we made these decisions together so I don't feel is fair for me to accept full, sole responsibility for them. She was completely closed to my words so I gave up.
I actually want her to be gone now. This is new for me.
She is adamant that she does not want an apartment. She wants a house or condo.
If she wants it so bad let her figure out a way, without you, to swing it. It's her problem to solve. You are not controlling or standing in her way.
EB. Have you seen an attorney? It gave me a little sense of relief when I talked to one and found out what my financial responsibilities were.
You are doing well, keep it up.
I talked to a lawyer a while back, but didn't get into those particulars. I should probably make that a priority now.
I bought myself a new phone to play with a coupleof days ago. It's my birthday present to myself (Verizon's Droid phone).
It's a good distraction.
With my b'day coming (Sunday) followed by the holidays there will be some quiet times in the EB house. I have really mixed feelings about this. Sad, but I just can't live like this anymore.
It feels like its really the end now.
I can tell you that you never know where the next day will take you. All you can do is be prepared. There are so many of us out there like you that just keep plugging away. Stay tough, stay strong and believe in yourself and others will follow. I'm hoping for you buddy.
It feels like its really the end now.
No, man, it's not. It's a new beginning. You will still have your S.
I hear you. But, can you re-focus on the good things in your life. Yes, the good things: your S, yourself and the very real (probable) prospect of a great future.
What exactly is ending? Your M? That was over a while back, just like the rest of us. And do you really want your current "M" anyway? Don't YOU deserve to be happy? Don't you deserve to be with someone who wants to be with you?
So, your currently crappy M in which you were underappreciated and not "good enough" is ending. What are you holding on to? I'm not sying we here are innocent victims. Far from that. Fix what needs fixing, pick yourself up off the floor, and get moving!
What choice do you have?
Thanks Wtbb. I saw how your sitch had been all over.
That's a pretty good summary of it Gima.
Thanks Wtbb. I saw how your sitch had been all over.
That's a pretty good summary of it Gima.
I understand the grieving. And that has to happen. Just don't crawl down in that hole. It's a he!! of a climb out.
Oddly, I'm not really in a hole. It seems like it's time.
Still not really easy, but it's just time.
I think she's trying to pi$$ me off tonight, but it's not really getting to me anymore.
That's a pretty good summary of it Gima.
Gima's good at that. And helping. And giving. One of the best.
(yeah, I know, Gima: "Aw, shucks"
)
True.
She got all done up and went out for the night. She hasn't been like this in a while.
I really think it would be easier if she would just leave. At least then I wouldn't feel so disrespected all of the time.
Funny how I can want her to go one minute and have it hurt so bad the next.
I asked her what she is planning to do this morning. She's looking for a rental. This is good but is STILL hurtful and uncomfortable to talk about.
Is being a cold, distant, rude person just a coping mechanism or is she really just a b!tch at heart?
I say coping mechanism. Mine was the same way.
I say coping mechanism. Mine was the same way.
And a defense mechanism.
Happy Birthday to me.
What an awkward day this is going to be.
Last Saturday night she climbed into bed and slept curled up with me. Now this crap again. I m having a hard time with the utter disrespect shown toward me.
I wonder if I'd even really want her back anymore.
The birthday was lonely, but I got in a lot of time with my son.
A lot has happened since my birthday. She seems to be having a hard time with all of this she has come into my room and woken me up to talk. Not really about R stuff. Mostly about how amicable she will be when she moves out. She seemed to be looking for me to give her approval. She even wanted a hug.
She was sick yesterday. I stayed home, took S to school, picked him up, got dinner and her prescriptions as she was laid up. Not to kiss up, but because that is just the kind of guy I am.
Its hard to believe that she is willing to give up everything. She clearly loves our family and our home. I am really starting to shut off toward her anymore though.
I'm having a hard morning however. Resentment and sadness all mixed together.
Hey EB
Im new to your sitch but I've been reading up on your ups and downs. Mine have been similar. After I basically went dark on her she's recently texted me to see if I wanted some dinner she cooked. (she moved out after threatening to for a couple months only after I forced her to) After I said no thank you she found a reason to drop food off anyway as my older son was over visiting. She got Upset because my two sons, daughter in law and grandaughter were over on a planned dinner. She stated she felt ostracized. Then I ran into her at a grocery store a couple days later as I was leaving. She came up and gave me a hug and a kiss and said I looked great. Then she texted me to have a good day a couple days ago. Then nothing but silence and her insistence we are done. I think its all just part of the journey. I truly believe my W doesnt know what she really wants but her MLC has her so screwed up she cant think straight. Thats obviously what your W is going thru. Like everyone says when this DB journey started, strap yourself in because its a hell of a rollercoaster ride. As long as you focus on yourself and your child and maybe have a little less responding to her and contact w/her you should do a bit better. It drives me crazy but you cant go looking for hope in every tiny bit of contact or youre gonna go mad. Good luck.
She seemed to be looking for me to give her approval. She even wanted a hug.
If you can handle the hug, no problem. I would not give her the approval she is looking for to bless her decision to D. This is part of bursting the bubbles of her fanatasy of what life will be like post-D. You don't do it in a a$$hole way, just don't agree with her. You know the drill.
She was sick yesterday. I stayed home, took S to school, picked him up, got dinner and her prescriptions as she was laid up. Not to kiss up, but because that is just the kind of guy I am.
This is compassion, and this is good. You aren't kissing her a$$. You are simply showing kindness to another human being.
And you were doing fine until...
Its hard to believe that she is willing to give up everything. She clearly loves our family and our home. I am really starting to shut off toward her anymore though.
Where's your focus? Can you control what she's thinking/willing to do? So, why worry about it? I know, easier said than done. But, we've all been there. You have to grieve the loss of your M - no question. But, as you grieve, stay aware that you need to "keep walking" through the grief and towards accepting that the M is over - really, truly, God honest O...V...E...R.
Then, once you have reached that place where you accept you are already D'd and that you will be ok when the technical D is finished, you can begin acting like you should - as Coach says, acting like a soldier should. I promise you it is much better in that place. You aren't worried about what will happen, what she's thinking/doing. A lot less stress and your actions towards her will show, I mean really show, detachment. What happens as a result of that, who knows. But, YOU will be better off, that much IS certain.
I'm having a hard morning however. Resentment and sadness all mixed together.
Understandable. Grieve the loss. Then get back to work. Working on you. Working on being a better father and H (for someone - might be W, might not).
Thanks guys.
The problem is that she is still there. She isn't saying its over anymore. She's saying if there is a chance that we can make it work, she has to leave and find what she is looking for. I don't really want to wait around and be the fall back just in case she can't find a life that she likes better.
My focus on her mindset is mostly just observation, but it does add to my confusion. Such mixed messages. I don't validate or give approval for her actions. She keeps looing for it though. I validate plenty. Just not her leaving.
It seems that we are to be deemed "done" she's waiting for me to make the call. I haven't yet, but I have set some boundaries. I toke her that once she is gone I will only be a part of her life where S is concerned. She really wasn't happy about that. She seems to think that we would still hang out or something.
The problem is that she is still there. She isn't saying its over anymore. She's saying if there is a chance that we can make it work, she has to leave and find what she is looking for. I don't really want to wait around and be the fall back just in case she can't find a life that she likes better.
And you should not wait around for her. The point is to get on with YOUR life. And that will probably not make her happy. And if it doesn't, then good. It MAY make her re-evaluate her decision, and then YOU get to decide if you want her back and under what terms. This is critical - SHE has to fight for YOU if she has a change of heart. DO NOT save her from the reality of her decision. She needs to experience that.
Oh, and I don't believe the bit about the only way we have a chance is if I leave. That's just a backhanded way to get you to give her permission to D you. Don't fall into that trap.
My focus on her mindset is mostly just observation, but it does add to my confusion. Such mixed messages. I don't validate or give approval for her actions. She keeps looing for it though. I validate plenty. Just not her leaving.
You are in charge of what you ALLOW to confuse you. Detach, and this isn't an issue any more. AND, you will see how much clearer you will be able to think.
It seems that we are to be deemed "done" she's waiting for me to make the call. I haven't yet, but I have set some boundaries. I toke her that once she is gone I will only be a part of her life where S is concerned. She really wasn't happy about that. She seems to think that we would still hang out or something.
It's not YOUR call b/c it's not YOUR decision. Don't let her make you a part of her bad decision. That's exactly what she's looking for. DON'T give this to her.
Now, that does not mean there isn't a day coming (maybe it's here) where you file for D. That's your call. But, either she is working on putting the M back together, or heading that way, or you guys should set about taking it apart.
And the "we will still be bestest buddies" thing. Script. I have been told the same thing. And, it a'int happenin. Burst the bubbles of her fantasy. And let her embrace the reality (sort of the flip side of Coach's "embrace the suck").
You are handling this the right way. But, you need to grieve the loss, and get on with detachment and accepting your new existence. And, here's the best part, it isn't all bad AND YOU will be a very emotionally healthy person. And that opens a lot of doors you have yet to discover even exist.
You ARE strong enough to do this. Just make the decision to do it.
This is new for me. I find myself feeling nothing for W. I mean nothing! Not anger, not love, not sadness. The fact that I feel shut off is...well...I don't know. Just not right.
I feel completely disconnected from her. Like this is a business transaction that didn't work out. This is what she was saying about herself when this all started.
I can't go to this site at work anymore so I am limited to my phone. It makes it challenging to comment on other people's situations.
Take a look at Thinker's post last night on his thread. Should help you understand why you are feeling what you are feeling.
I know what you are going through right now. It probably scares you a little too, right? But, it's normal what you are feeling right now.
She got her place today. She's moving out the day before Thanksgiving.
It hurts more than I thought it would. I guess I'm not all cried out.
I am strong enough to survive it now though.
EB, Another bomb dropped on you. Take care of yourself. Use your support network, stay busy and don't talk to her. Come up with a plan on how deal with Weds-Thurs later this weekend. I know this hurts.
Coach
EB, Sorry man. That's tough. But so are you. Take Cocah's advice and stay busy.
This is just one of those times when you have to gut it out and be strong.
Thanks Coach.
You're a good guy and really know your stuff.
Thanks for checking in GIMA.
I am a lot stronger (or more detached) than I have been. It's still hitting me though. After all of this time.
Being detached doesn't mean you turn into a robot. It just means you know you will be ok no matter what.
It's ok to be human.
EB, Sorry to hear about the latest. I guess another bomb can hit any one of us at any time which is why detaching is so important. It should also tell you something about her that she decides to do this the day before thanksgiving. Stay busy and use that fact to help you detach even more. By all means, DON'T HELP W/THE MOVE! Go somewhere, just don't be around. Good Luck!
Hi EB,
I am sorry. Do you have plans for Thanksgiving? If not, I would suggest going to a church or community center to donate your time and help the less fortunate.
Take care.
I'm planning to help with the move. No real motive behind it. I don't really want other people coming in my house hauling stuff out though. She doesn't even want much from here. Not sure if she feels bad about taking stuff or just doesn't want anything from our life together.
She still hasn't told S that she's gotten her place and is going. (He knows that she's planning to go, but I don't think he really gets it)
I think she wants to have Thanksgiving here at out house believe it or not. We haven't discussed it though. We haven't talked about much of the details.
I'd rather not have Thanksgiving with her. It may be good for S though. I'm not sure what to do here.
EB,
I'm planning to help with the move. No real motive behind it.
Your call, but I say don't. I got a truck and moved her out/moved her in. Put up shelves, mirrors, the whole 9 yards. It's hard to articulate other than to say I later had wished that when she got her apartment and we agreed on what she could take, that I had then just sat back on my butt and said, "Okay, I guess you're all set to go". And then done
nothing.
My experience & subsequent regret fwiw.
EB,
I agree with Gardener. This is HER choice, HER decision to move out, so let HER handle implementing HER decision. Maybe you and S could go to a park for the day.
I already agreed to help her move so I am planning to do so. I will always know that I tried all that I could and stayed true to myself.
You guys are probably right and I may be kicking myself for it in the future, but I feel that its something I have to do.
I can see that she is in pain occasionally when she doesn't have her "hardass" face on. (I bet you all know what I'm talking about here)
She needs to go at this point. Clearly she has seen this to the magic bullet to her happiness and will never be able to let it go if she doesn't see for herself.
She is still nice to me until I mention anting about moving or our R. Then she becomes a different person. I heard her crying yesterday. It took everything that I had not to go check on her. I just can't do that right now though.
Hopefully I have been a good enough man for her to miss after she leaves.
It's strange. I'm having a hard time remembering the good times now. I can remeber the warm feelings though.
I have had to fight reaching out to her today.
After all this time of "Ups & Downs" I still get the pangs where it's hard to breathe, move.
I understand. But, you have to keep working on detachment. And, I'm not talking about ridding yourself of feelings for her.
I forget, but are you seeing an IC?
I was. She was horrible though.
I will have to find another IC.
Detaching gets thrown off with confusion and shock. Keep in mind, W was kissing me only a little over a week ago again. I know I can't control the outcome, but feelings are still there.
I was. She was horrible though.
I will have to find another IC.
Detaching gets thrown off with confusion and shock. Keep in mind, W was kissing me only a little over a week ago again. I know I can't control the outcome, but feelings are still there.
Here's something I posted on Gardener's thread yesterday:
Gardener,
I'm glad you brought this up. Present company (including Trent) excluded, I think this points out the fundamental misunderstanding a lot of folks here have with detachment. They incorrectly think detachment means indifference towards their spouse or a state of no emotions. And that's NOT detachment.
Detachment means you have gone to the worst case scenario in your mind, lived it, embraced it, smelled it and realized that you WILL be ok.
Detachment has very little to do with the state of one's emotions. I believe it is more a mental toughness from facing the cold, hard facts and never, ever giving up. Sound familiar? If not, look up the Stockdale paradox.
Thanks again GIMA.
She called me on my way home. She got her place a day early. She's there now. I am home with S.
She hugged me on the way out and told me she is sorry. I said the same. She held me for a while.
I miss her already.
I understand man. And, it's ok to have feelings.
But, YOU have NOTHING to be sorry about. So, no more apologies, ok?
It takes two people to get a M where yours (and mine) is. You've already acknowledged your part. Now, let it go. You can't undo the past.
I feel for you, EB.
*Dia uploads tea and sympathy*
Thanks guys. Nice to see you Dia. I hope all is well in your world. I don't get a chance to keep up with the boards like I used to. No computer access. I have to do it all on my phone : (
There's a weird numbness to all of this. It feels like she is just going on vacation for a little while. How strange.
EB, I empathize with you on this first, awful night alone,
Thanks Gardner. My boy and dog are still here tonight. It's weird. It feels like she just at the store. It hasn't really sunken in yet.
It's all kind of surreal still. I am just going through motions...feels like I'll wake up from this nightmare at some point. I've had this dream before. I didn't like it then either.
I have an oddly accepting perspective since last night. I truly have loved my W. I don't want to be the cause of her unhappiness. If this is what will honestly make her happy, I will just have to let her go.
That was hard to type...maybe the oddly accepting would be better described as coming and going.
EB,
feels like I'll wake up from this nightmare at some point.
I understand and feel for you. But, sometimes we have to wake ourselves up from the nightmare. No waiting for it to happen.
And, yes, it's painful, but you have to make a decision to keep walking out of that painful place. It will take time, but a lot less time if you keep moving.
Check out Coach's thread on surviving the holidays. In short, stay busy.
And, I know none of this advice is going to make the pain go away. But it will help you to work through it.
Strength, man.
How are things at your place Gima? I know it looked like you were doing pretty well for a while, got told nothing changed, started to back off and she agreed to MC. How are things between the two of you now?
How are things at our place Gima? I know it looked like you were doing pretty well, got told nothing changed, started to back off and she agreed to MC. How are things between the two of you now?
Honestly, I don't know. We are selecting a MC from our respective lists. I wish I could tell you I felt better about the chance of our M working out based on her agreeing to MC'ing, but I can't.
What I can say is that no matter what happens, I know I'll be better off b/c either (a) we work on making our M what it should have been all along or (b) I will find happiness with whatever the rest of my life holds - I have my kids, I have my health, I will be alone, but not lonely, I will probably meet someone with whom I can be happier than I have ever been (NOT someone to MAKE me happy).
I see the rest of my life as a journey. Where that leads, I don't know. But I know I will continue to learn about myself and others with a much different lens now. It's a bit scary and exciting at the same time.
I don't want to be D'd, but I am tired of auditioning for the part of my W's H and tired of trying to convince someone to love me. You see how unhealthy that is? If my W doesn't want to love me, then I don't want her. I deserve (we all do) better.
So what do you need to do to get there? I promise you it is much better than where I was. I may not like what's happening, but I feel in control.
GIMA - hopefully your W just needs help to find what she is looking for.
I think my W thinks there is something that she is missing. She says she loves me still (has recently). She has kissed me, been passionate with me, and slept with me only a few weeks ago. It makes it so much harder to accept that we are done. She's not planning to file for D at this point. She said she may miss me in a month and find the feelings that she has been missing. Then she said maybe 6 months from she will be independent and the happiest she has ever been.
My response was that I couldn't guarantee I would be open to her coming back. I said the door is open, but I can't keep it that way forever.
I'm going back and forth from the numbness.
I don't want to be D'd, but I am tired of auditioning for the part of my W's H and tired of trying to convince someone to love me. You see how unhealthy that is? If my W doesn't want to love me, then I don't want her. I deserve (we all do) better.
I second that.
I feel like I have arrived at the same place as you and Thinker. Both Thinker and I have been dealing with the situaiton for a year and there was an OM involved as well. I am sooooo close to telling W we need to get going and just file for D, but I will bite my toungue for a little longer and just enjoy the holiday weekend with my kids, put up my xmas lights, and possibly get a tree.
EB - Hang in there...hopefully this will create some changes for you.
GIMA - hopefully your W just needs help to find what she is looking for.
I think my W thinks there is something that she is missing. She says she loves me still (has recently). She has kissed me, been passionate with me, and slept with me only a few weeks ago. It makes it so much harder to accept that we are done. She's not planning to file for D at this point. She said she may miss me in a month and find the feelings that she has been missing. Then she said maybe 6 months from she will be independent and the happiest she has ever been.
My response was that I couldn't guarantee I would be open to her coming back. I said the door is open, but I can't keep it that way forever.
I'm going back and forth from the numbness.
I can't imagine how tough that would be - my W is the flip side of your's. My W has shown no affection, emotional support, hugs, kisses, much less anything else, since the bomb. With your sitch, I don't know if I could handle it. Can you?
If you can't, I think this needs to be a boundary. I'm sure you realize this is cake eating, right? She has you when SHE wants, but not when You want. Just saying, I couldn't do it.
As for the bit about her looking for the feelings she has been missing, you know she isn't going to find that, right. She's looking for someone else or something else to make her happy. Happiness comes from within. No place else.
Sorry man. That has to be rough. But you can handle this.
Nice to see you on here WTBB. I hope all is well on your homefront.
I hear you Trying...as far as I know there isn't anyone else in the picture. That would really suck if there was though.
Gina - what she talks about is the feeling for me. Is she truly in love other me? Will she be happier without me? That's what she's looking for...answers to that. (What she says anyway). We got married a few weeks before her 20th b'day. She has never known life on her own.
I'm not making excuses, but just reporting what she has told me. I personally don't think she has ever really grown up.
All the more reason to pull back, stop her cake eating and set healthy boundaries for you and the little one. Let her live this seperate life ON HER OWN. Don't save her from the problems she has yet to discover that come with her choice. You aren't there to prop her up anymore.
Otherwise you are just prolonging bringing this to resolution.
Gima,
I see the rest of my life as a journey. Where that leads, I don't know. But I know I will continue to learn about myself and others with a much different lens now. It's a bit scary and exciting at the same time.
I don't want to be D'd, but I am tired of auditioning for the part of my W's H and tired of trying to convince someone to love me.
I gotta tell you that you just
nail it so often, that your posts often have me here yelling,
"Yes! Yes! Exactly!! And consider this: Journey =
Adventure!
I had been waiting for something to change. I was trying to be understanding and caring.
Now that she's got her own place I have made it very clear that our contact is only regarding S for the time being.
Oh, I know the waiting place very well. Coach recommended Dr. Seuss' "Oh The Places You Will Go.". There's a part in there about the waiting place and how everyone is stuck there b/c they are all waiting on everyone else to do something.
Sounds like you are heading in the right direction. But, I can promise you limboland means dying a slow death. She isn't gonna lead out of that place, so that responsibility falls to you.
Coach made some great posts on my thread in the last month on this topic.
She moved out while I was at work today. I didn't know she was going to do that.
She's gone. She has my S and my dog. I am drunk. Watching Transformers.
I can handle this.
Sorry man.
Not being a prude, but, put the drink down, turn off the TV and go to bed. Not begruding you, just don't make it a habit. It would be VERY easy to.
Sorry to hear that. I agree, put the drink down. Grab a nice big glass of water, down it. Take a cold shower. Snuggle up in your bed and try to get a good nights rest. Take care.
Good advice. Not a habit. Just a hard night.
Ill be OK. Even when being irresponsible, I'm fairly responsible. I have a trend here.
My S called while I was typing this..
He really likes "our" new place.
Ouch.
Sorry man. That sux.
What are your plans for tomorrow?
EB,
She moved out while I was at work today. I didn't know she was going to do that.
That sucks.
You may wind up feeling it was better that you weren't there, though. Who knows?
She's gone. She has my S and my dog. I am drunk. Watching Transformers.
Sorry.
Yep. May not seem so, tonight, but yes, you can.
W wants to have lunch as a family. If I say no, she will say its my fault S missed out on Thanksgiving.
Ill do it, but will keep it short. Ill spend the rest of the day with S. W will have to leave. S and I may go to a neighbor's and watch football.
You have good Turkey day plans?
Only do it if you want to and its the right thing for you. Consequences, man, consequences.
Yoou are going to see your S anyway, right. So her excuse isn't valid. You will be missing lunch with HER. Noot S.
I am home for Thanksgiving with W and kids. Will it be our last one together? Don't know, and I'm not gonna worry about it now. Live in the present.
I'm sooooo sorry to hear this. It hurts. I know. But she hasn't divorced you. I know how lonely it is, but just enjoy the good times with your son.
PS Happy Thanksgiving
This may be the best thing to happen to your sitch. I feel like when my H actually left he started to realize what he is missing and what he wants in life. Also I wouldn't be where I am today. I have learned so much about myself and who I am, and what kind of mom and wife I really want to be. So when my H finally puts his head on straight and comes home I will be ready to build an everlasting HEALTHY marriage. When H and I did the whole "in house separation" thing, it just wasn't the same. You are probably realizing alot of things right now, things you may not have looked at if she was still there. Take this time to grow. It will better yourself as a person. It will give you more strength then you knew you had. I promise you that.
Happy Thanksgiving
Nice to hear from you all. Thanks for stopping by Britt. I will have to check on your thread. (My phone literally wont let me type the word s.itch)
W brought S home this morning. I politely turned down the offer of having Thanksgiving dinner together. S and I will go to a neighbor's house. They have kids for him to play with.
Britt, I hope you're right. I have thought for a while that she would have to go before things would ever get better. She's having a pretty rough day. Thanksgiving alone in her news place. She didn't seem to want to leave when she came to drop S off. I tried o be polite, but not overly comforting. It's a weird balance. She was in tears at one point. I did put my arms around her before she left.
I am fighting calling to check on her. At least she's not acting like a robot. I feel bad for her believe it or not.
They say you don't know what you got til it's gone. It may be horrible grammar but I hop it's true for her. I know it's woken up a lot of us LBS's.
EB,
I know this is tough on you, but you are doing the right thing. This is a situation SHE created. Do not save her from her decision. Making this real for her IS the right thing to do.
And don't call her. Why would you? Its not out of spite - its not saving her from a situation SHE has created. Don't know if doing this will bring her back, but saving her right now will NOT.
Be strong and enjoy your afternoon with S.
I have resisted calling, but feel horrible about it. I still have the feelings of a husband whose wife is in pain.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but is she acting like your W right now? Then why should she expect the support of a H? Let yourself off the hook.
If she were acting like your W, then of course you woul do what your old habits, and heart, are telling you to do. But, she isn't, now, is she?
Nope.
I think she needs to go through this on her own too. Logically, this makes sense. Emotionally, its all just a mess.
Yes, she does.
Stick with the plan. You are doing fine.
And, I understand the logic v emotions.
EB,
I still have the feelings of a husband whose wife is in pain.
We can ALL empathize with this one. One of the toughest parts, early on. Make sure you and your Son have a good day. You'll be alright.
She'll be alright. Even if today is painful for, that's alright, too. She has to feel and grow through the pain as you do.
As we all do.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Thanks Gardner. Happy Turkey day!
She just came and got the dog. S is staying here tonight. He begged her not to go.
Brutal.
It actually helps that I am a little dead inside.
S is staying here tonight. He begged her not to go. Brutal.
It actually helps that I am a little dead inside.
Brutal is right.
Chin up, buck up, man up and all that good stuff for your son, though. right?
Endure.
I handled it. I let her take care of it.
Still brutal. Probably a good thing for W to have to deal with.
I took S to the neighbor's house to play with their kids. He bounced Baker pretty quickly.
Hang in there. Stay busy.
Had she planned to pick up the dog?
S wanted the dog to stay with him when he came home this morning. She came back at the agreed upon time.
The dog will normally just ay at her place I assume.
Hi EB-
from one Bunny to another
I'm sorry the last couple days have been so rough for you. Stay strong- your S is lucky to have you for his Dad.
Thanks Spy Bunny. I hope you had as good of a Thanksgiving as possible.
It looks like you're on a similar course.
Hey man. You made it through the day.
I know that was tough. And I hate that for you. But, you handled yourself very well.
Hopefully, you have the rest of the week off. Make the most of that time for you and your S.
As always, I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
I did make it through the day. I'm still a little dead inside. You may think that I'd be waiting for W to come walking through the door at any minute, but it just feels strangely accepted.
She is coming to get S in an hour. Her parents are coming from out of town to spend the wrench with her.
My emotions swirl between hurt and emotionless.
Two words: GET BUSY!
Yard work, exercise, clean the house. Anything and everything. Rent a movie, watch football, read a book.
Get out and walk around a mall or something today...see some people. I'm telling you the dynamics in your R have changed now since she moved out. What was happening was not working so this is like a new chance of something breaking loose. I would not have had this chance until my W moved out. I heard the kids talk about her apt all the time.....it was because it was new and different...not that they like it anymore. It's like a new toy and the newness will wear off.
Take this as an opportunity...I promise you it will get better and as you accept this for what it is you will get better.
Get out!!!!!!!!!!!
Go do some xmas shopping! Call a friend, go for dinner, that's what I'm doing tonight...H has the boys for day one for four. Need to get out and get my mind off things...you do the same!
Nice to see you WTBB. Long time, no see. I hope all is well with you and your family.
W came to pick up S this morning. It was extremely painful. Very uncomfortable. Still felt so surreal to be packing up clothes and toys for him to leave our home to go to "mom's house."
She was quick and didn't come past the front entryway. I gave S a big hug and told him to have a nice day. My voice cracked as I said it and in an effort not to make a scene, I ducked into the laundry room. W took him to the car and came back in to check on me. (I didn't realize she caught what had happened) I didn't know she was coming back in. When she came in 30 seconds later, I was sitting on the floor sobbing.
She put her arms around me and said "I'm so sorry." I replied. "I'll be OK in a fairly nonreceptive manor." She asked if I wanted her to leave and I said yes.
Her parents are at her new place for the weekend.
She started to cry each time she talked to S on the phone yesterday. She texted to tell me good morning and to check on S this morning. I had S call her, but did not respond.
I got out a little today and took advantage of some of the black friday sales to replace a couple things in the house that she took with her.
I don't know if I actually miss her or the concept of our family right now. A general awkwardness along with rejection and an overall depressed feeling more than missing her. It comes and goes. It's been so long since things have been really good.
I bought some DVDs put some noise in the house.
(((EB))) My heart breaks for you having to be without your son.
Hang in there.
Thanks Sad Girl. It's so quiet in my house tonight. It will give me time to check on this board though.
I'll be sure to pop over to your sitch.
Hang in there EB.
Do something for yourself tonight.
I still feel a little dead inside. It feels like they are out of town and I'm waiting for them to come home tomorrow.
Its lonely here. Quiet.
I feel you. My H has the boys for 5 days at a time. I don't work and he works shift work, so 5 on, 5off. It is the hardest thing I'll ever have to do in my life. Today is day 2 of 5. I've never felt more lonely. You know, when you decided to start a family and have children you definitely don't prepare to only see them part time. Its so unfair. I feel your pain. I would give a million dollars to see my babies right now, but I guess we need to accept our situations. Find something to do. Do something you can't do when you have your child. Make use of the time you have to yourself. Have a good day!
I am so sorry to hear that Britt. I truly feel to you. It looks like we both need some distraction. All the movies and shopping in the work don't fix it, but its nice to be zoned out for a few minutes here and there.
I am a jackass. S didn't have a bed "there" yet. I offered to get one for him. Still trying to be the good guy I guess. I brought it to her place this afternoon. The first time I saw the place.
There they were. My family. My wife, son, dog, my car...all cozy in their new place. Its a nice place. All new stuff. Apparently she stashed more money than I was aware of. I should have made her get the bed.
They even had a new Christmas tree all up and decorated.
I was in and out quickly. S wanted to stay there with mom, so I left him there.
She didn't even have him call me last night or this morning. She see to have totally moved on already.
Seems to have moved on that is...
Seems to have moved on that is...
*bonk!!!*
Never, EVER, *assume* this.
Mindreading, LBS, 15 yard penalty. (And don't necessarily believe if she says it word for word, either.)
Hang in there. This is the hardest period to get through for a lot of folks. Do some self-care, do some GAL and go be with people who love you and support you.
Thanks Dia.
It is so hard to see anything other than what is being presented to me sometimes.
W brought S home this morning. Its very strained and awkward between us. She either has the strong girl face on, or she just isnt feeling anything about all of this. She has been looking forward to her "freedom" for so long. I had thought the move, losing her home and half of the time with her son, may do something to wake her up. I guess its still early into the living apart thing.
She didn't even have him call me last night or this morning.
Do you think it his her responsibility to have your son call? Why can't you call your son if you want to speak to him?
I'm curious because I do not have my kids call H. They can call if they want or he can call them. It's not my responsibility to have them call, is it?
W had her parents over. I asked her to have S call me since I didn't know what their plans were. I could have called, but I kept waiting to hear from one of them until it was late.
I didn't saw anything to W about it because she would just say that I was being critical of her. She can be as much of a mean, thoughtless b1tch as she wants. If I have the nerve to call her out, she says I am being critical. She would com she didn't remember the conversation anyway.
Stop doing what doesn't work right?
eb,
She either has the strong girl face on, or she just isnt feeling anything about all of this.
Sounds like she could be conflicted.
EB,
I could have called, but I kept waiting to hear from one of them until it was late.
Stop doing what doesn't work right?
Of course. Call!
LeadingPassive. Reactive
What a heartless human being. S called her in tears because her and our dog aren't here. Her response "I'm not really sure what to tell you. We're not doing anything fun that you're missing out on over here." WFT?
As are as the reason I didn't call the other night, I was just trying to be respectful of the time they were spenging with her parents. The lake of call is really the least of my concerns. The stone cold robot who inhabits my wife's body is really the issue.
EB,
The lake of call is really the least of my concerns. The stone cold robot who inhabits my wife's body is really the issue.
Tell me about it (sigh).
Lake of calls? I swear my spelling isn't that bad. This phone keeps replacing my words! Lack...not lake.
No problem. easy to fill in the blanks & typos.
It funny how I think about he anymore. I truly think about her like she is a different person (or robot). My W would be appalled by what this clone is doing to her family.
I wonder...should I be trying to "be there" for W or just be dark.
So far, its been only 5 days and we've barely spoken. We cried and hugged on Thanksgiving, but have only spoken (mostly texted) on things regarding S.
Does this make it easier for her to move on? Does it make me seem bitter (I am but don't want to seem that way).
I wonder...should I be trying to "be there" for W or just be dark.
"be there" when the opportunity presents itself.
never forget you are being watched.
I wonder...should I be trying to "be there" for W or just be dark.
"be there" when the opportunity presents itself.
never forget you are being watched.
Hi EB. This is a very hard time. I saw my W's "furnished" place and thought how nice. She really has moved on. She said that initially she thought so too. But that belief dissipated. Stay strong, show her that you can handle this.
Thanks Tristan. Its nice to hear that others have come back from this far into it.
I have accepted the possibilities, but would of course prefer reconciliation. W seems completely shut off emotionally. Even toward S to some extent. About an hour ago we spoke on the phone for a few minutes about S's rough night last night. She seems so clinical about it. I would have thought she would be more loving. She doesn't seem to take any responsibility for it. Mindreading on my part I guess.
Either way, its nice to know that some make it back from the abyss.
Well you did have success before when you were going out and not being available for her. I would vote for going dark. Your usual pattern is to be there for her, feel her pain, etc. Try the 180. And remember to try it for at least two weeks.
And, it's only been five days. I'm seven months living in separate places and believe me H has changed. He was completely gone for a while in the beginning too. Take care of yourself and keep busy at this time.
Weren't we supposed to be reading books together?
Hang in there - we're all still here for you.
Hope - I've been waiting for you to pick the book.
Do you have one in mind?
*****RANTING/JOURNALING/SHARING…WHATEVER***************
This whole thing has really been one strange journey (not to overuse the cliché from EVER reality TV show)
I don’t realy miss her at this point. It comes and goes and I would like to have my family back together, but overall I seem to have shut down major parts of my feelings. My memories are tainted too. I am logical enough to see what is happening to a degree and know that there are still feelings in there, significant feelings, but they seem to be on hold right now. I have to much anger and resentment to let them out. I have a little compassion too. Believe it or not, I am angry with her and feel bad for her at the same time. It’s sad that she’s given up her home, her marriage, a chunk of time with her son, financial stability etc. in the search for happiness.
It’s been only a week since she’s left. The first few days seemed very emotional for her. They were for me too. Since then, I’ve become distant and have kept our communication short and only focused on our son. It’s not so much a strategy, I just don’t want to talk to her. I guess it wouldn’t hurt if she missed me though. There doesn’t seem to be any sign of it however. It’s only been a week I know, but she has gone from emotional to being chipper and like she’s my buddy in our conversations. She has even tried to take care of some things back at our house, she’s checked on me to see that I was doing OK, and has been concerned for how I am doing. She has taken very little from our house as she wants to be able to make it on her own. It sounds like she needs this whole thing as an exercise for growing up.
I don’t want to be her buddy though. I don’t want to be chatty and playful with her. I don’t even want to go to our son’s teacher conference with her tonight. I’m going to stay home and play Guitar Hero with him.
I still find myself wondering where my wife went though. I wonder where the girl who used to look at me like she used to, the girl who would say forever and ever, the girl who was so sweet, loving, and caring went to. I want to go there and find her.
As I write this, I realize that maybe I do miss her. It’s just that I miss the old her and not W-2.0.
Like so many of you others have mentioned, it is still so hard to understand how they can wear the happy face, but then say they’re done and nothing has changed.
I just went to pick son at her new place.
I could barely look at her. Lots of anger...possibly hatred was filling me. I can't even look at her.
I keep it short and don't say much. I'm not really appearing to have gotten a life by acting like that. Not that I'm acting bad, just quiet and aloof.
I didn't think I could ever feel like this about her.
You're hurt and overwhelmed with emotion. You're just trying to hold it in to hold it together. That's what I would guess. GAL is an ideal, and hold onto it as something for down the line when you are ready. If you are angry then be angry. She left you. You have every right to all your feelings. And feelings shift. You feel this way now, and who knows what is down the line. The point is to take care of yourself and do what you need to do - staying home and playing guitar hero with your son is a perfect example. You owe her nothing. Take care.
Go figure, our S is having a hard time with W not living here!
I tried a million times to tell W that this would be unbelievably difficult for him the whole time she was threatening to leave and she kept telling me that I was just telling her that to try to “control” her.
This past week since she left S has been with her from the time she picks him up from school until I pick him up at 5:30 ish and bring him home. He sleeps at home, and I bring him back there in the morning. She brings him to school.
Today, she suggested that she keep him ½ of the nights. This would give her all of the time after school and ½ of the evenings as well leaving me with only ½ of the evenings. Through text message, I told her that I did not feel this arrangement was satisfactory.
She sent me this E-mail:
EB,
I completely understand if you don't like the day on/day off schedule. S has been trying to not feel like he's choosing between the two of us and since he hasn't been vocal about his wishes up to this point and now he is, I think we should try to follow it at least for a while.
This is his house, too, and I know that is probably hard to accept and I'm sorry. I understand that you feel since I get a couple hours with him after school you should get a couple hours with him after dinner. What we need to remember is that parenting time is not about us spending time with him, it's about him spending time with each of us. I discounted that before in my first schedule suggestion, and he has made it clear that it's not good enough for him. Those two hours after school are filled with winding down from the school day, homework, playdates, dinner prep and dinner. The nights he's been here for those couple hours, we've enjoyed it, but it's not enough quality time to be the long term schedule.
If you don't want to do one night on/one off, we need to come up with something else that is fairly equal as far as nights with each of us. He wants that, and to be completely honest, so do I. Let me know if you have a suggestion.
My response: Please keep in mind that my parents divorced at his exact age and I have been fighting to keep us together.
W,
I am not sure how to respond to this at the moment. I do not agree with everything that you say and frankly, it has not gone well when I have expressed opinions that differ from yours.
There are a couple things that I will touch on though.
First, I know exactly what S is going through. I have been there before. He and I have spoken about this a couple of times this past week. I believe that I even told you this was what was going to happen with him. Believe it or not, all the times I told you how this would affect him, I was speaking from experience and trying to protect him from what he is now having to deal with. At some point, I would like to have a conversation with you about what I think he will go through next. I don't think that we're ready for that yet though. I have to be honest, I'm not ready to have friendly, open minded conversations with you right now, but we do need to talk through that at some point.
If we make the schedule he just has to follow it and does not have to choose between us. I would rather, once it is made, that we stay away from last minute changes as much as possible too.
Second, I know that you want your new place to be a home for you and S. I completely get that. I don't happen to see it the same way as you may though. This is his the only home that he has ever known and where his friends and neighbors are. It's not a matter of me not accepting it. I just don't think that your new place holds the same value as "home." I agree that it is where his mother is though, and also I agree that he needs to be comfortable there and needs to spend time with you.
Please keep in mind, I bought him a bed for there so he would be comfortable at your place. I do get it.
I am not sure how to have further conversation with you regarding how to develop a schedule for him at the moment. I would like to have him tomorrow night though.
I am not sure if I handled this poorly or not. Any feedback will be welcomed.
I called to talk S after sending my email last night. I made a point to talk to W in a social way. ( I haven't said more than a few more words to her since she moved out last week). It was nice to just talk to her trying 5 or 10 minutes about TV shows.
She did take exception to my email, but we didn't dwell on it too much.
I find myself essentially indifferent to her at this point though. I feel very little for her. Occasionally I feel sad. Sometimes I feel resentment. Mostly I have realized that this version of he is not who I want to be married to. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have my family together again, but a lot would have to change. A lot would have to be addressed. I have no interest in being married to someone who is still trying to be one of the "cool kids" in school.
Sometimes I go through those thoughts as well. My H also is portraying a very unattractive part of himself lately. Someone that I do not see a future with. It scares me often as i feel sometimes like we are addicted in a way to the "family life". The future we envisioned with these men as our husbands there to take care of us and be a family and go on family vacations and our childrens sport events as a family and etc. It make me wonder at times, do I just want the family life? Or do I really want my H?
You are right - she will have to make changes too. We have to stop being doormats and trying to please them. We are where we are because of two people, and the solution also resides with two.
I've been thinking of what I can say to help you right now. I know this is the hardest time yet - I was there eight months ago. Remembering how devastated and upset and confused I was = I feel for you now.
My only advice is to reread Divorce REmedy. This is probably the best book I can recommend we read right now. I was thinking of you when reading the part on LRT - all that stuff about focusing on yourself and giving the impression that you are moving on and how that can change a WAS spouse from blaming the LBS to being left alone to own all their feelings - not just anger and dissatisfaction, but lonliness, fear, doubt, etc.
I am rereading it because my H and I are starting a new phase - we are getting legally separated, which only is a piece of paper but is huge for me emotionally. ON the practical front, we're starting MC so I'm looking for guidance on how to proceed given this is probabaly my last chance to save the M.
Why not get a copy and we can go through it together and get on track?
Hoping you are ok, and thinking positive thoughts for you and your son (he's the same age as mine).
I called to talk S after sending my email last night. I made a point to talk to W in a social way. ( I haven't said more than a few more words to her since she moved out last week). It was nice to just talk to her trying 5 or 10 minutes about TV shows.
She did take exception to my email, but we didn't dwell on it too much.
I find myself essentially indifferent to her at this point though. I feel very little for her. Occasionally I feel sad. Sometimes I feel resentment. Mostly I have realized that this version of he is not who I want to be married to. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have my family together again, but a lot would have to change. A lot would have to be addressed. I have no interest in being married to someone who is still trying to be one of the "cool kids" in school.
EB,
You are correct to see that there are a lot of concerns YOU have about her - and to question whether you would even want the current version of your W. I think that is a necessary stage in this process. It's healthy. Continue to explore that. And while you do, assess your self worth. I suspect you will find that you deserve better, either a new and improved W (should she come out of the fog) or someone else.
The feelings of resentment are understandable as well. I still have them. And what I usually find is that they have nothing to do with what my W is or is not doing (may be a little different where you are). Instead, I find my resentment happens when an unreasonable expectation (W isn't acting like my W) doesn't get met. Which is really a problem I am having with ME, not W. Why should I expect my W to act like my W right now - she wants to leave me, or at least that's what she has said.
Once you can identify the thought/expectation within yourself that is causing the resentment, then you can deal with it. Change your thoughts, change your emotions.
Hang in there.
EB, I dont have great advice to offer as I pulled the plug on my M and decided to file last week. I was done with the two house situation. I didn't come from a divorced family, but knew through the experience of others what you were telling your WAS. I even had those exact conversations with my WAS. Didn't matter. They are so blinded by fantasy/fog that they can't get it. Just know that you have people here to support you and are thinking of you and your sitch. Continue to be the best Dad you can. It shows how much you love your S and that is what is important. I can tell you from recent experience that over time the feelings you have will go away. You will focus more on daily activities and those needs of your S.
I love your phrase "I have no interest in being married to one of the cool kids in school." That is such a PERFECT description of my sitch. Hey, I have been married almost 19 years, can't we just be ourselves? Why the need to go back and pretend to be something you are not? I am not sure if you see this with your WAS, but everytime I see mine, I think how tired she looks and I just wonder how she can live that kind of life and what enjoyment she gets out of it. I guess that is where she and i diverged. I would rather spend time with my family, do outdoor activities, sports etc. and she would rather pretend she is still in college again. I realized a few weeks ago, that I like being 42. Its a great age and I like acting in an age appropriate manor. I wonder if your WAS and mine will ever come out of it. I suspect the divorce will happen in my sitch first.
I will add that I continue to work through Coach's 2 parallel path plan. I filed because I could no longer continue being treated so disrespectfully. However, I am also continuing to work on making me a better person. I think your questioning whether you could go back are healthy and your comment that much would have to change is spot on. It is clear from this forum that those changes can and do occur. So keep thinking positive.
GIMA's last line about Thoughts=>Emotions so spot on. When I began thinking I was OK without WAS (at least version 2.0) my emotions changed. Then I knew I had dropped the rope and was ready for whatever came my way. I was ready to take control and not be that doormat anymore. And I did take control. Try refoucusing your thoughts on what you want and need. You will see a change. Your emotions will change. You will feel better. Your WAS will notice that change, but even if she doesn't, it will be better for you and S5.
One thought on your 2 house (1 HOME) sitch. Can you all do a week on/week off? Not sure if job sitch allows it, but in my sitch, I have found that has really given me an incredible sensse of closeness with my Ss. Now my sitch differs in that right now I will not allow my kids to go to her place. Where I live is HOME. So I travel for work on off weeks and can let her come into the house while I am gone. I do NOT recommend this and was told by numerous follks that it is not a good sitch. But for reasons not appropriate for this forum, it was the right thing to do for me. Anyway, maybe that would give your S more stability than spending time in different places everyother night?
Finally, and I know this has been long, when your S is at her house, make a plan that you call everynight at a specific time to talk to him and wish him a good night. You probably have already thought of that, but I have watched my WAS NOT do that and it is really painfully for my s10. s12 doesnt care - he is too cool for WAS. LOL. But, it makes a difference. In almost twenty years of traveling for work, I never miss calling unless i am in an airplane. Your s will really apreciate it and look forward to it. Plus, it has the added benefit of never letting him loose touch of you. He hears your voice everyday.
You will do it. Be tough.
Wow. Thanks for all of the great feedback guys.
Some of my resentment is just from being treated like garbage. Some of derrived from my own actions and some is that I feel like I have been sold a false bill of goods. My W was always the quiet, modest, loving, respectful and mature girl. I have no interest in being married to a party girl whose goal is to show the world how "strong and independent" she is. It's like being married to a someone with a chip on their shoulder who is always looking to prove themself.
As far as a week on and a week off with S, it would be really hard to do. I leave for work 2 hours before he starts school and don't get home until 2-2.5 hours after he is done. W has a work from home business (that I helped start) so she brings him to school and picks him up. If we did the week on/off, he sould spend lots of time in latch-key. He may as well be with him Mom and I don't have to pay for it. We do talk every night that he is gone. I couldn't imagine it any other way.
When I went tp pick up S on Friday, W texted me and asked that I bring her some popcorn when I came over. We didn't have any at our house, but I was stopping at the store and picked up some for her. She seemed to appreciate it. I also brought her a screwdriver since I knew she lost hers and could use one at her new place.
I still didn't say much when I picked S up there though. It's quick, we exchange robotic pleasantries, don't make eye contact and don't go past the front door. She tries to talk to me like I am her buddy, like all is well. I am generally not a jerk, but I am quiet with short responses.
I put up Christmas lights on the house yesterday and went out with a friend last night. W talked to me for a minute when I called to talk to S (he was there last night as her parents were down again this weekend) and made sure to mention that I was on my way out. She didn't seem to care. She doesn't care about anything. She didn't even seem to care when she dropped S off this afternoon that our Christmas tree was up and she wasn't even a part of it.
She did come in for a minute when she dropped him off. I just can't bring myself to hang out with her like we're pals.
It's like there's nothing at all between us.
W continues to be friendly like we are buddies. We texted back and forth today about S. Clothes, school stuff etc. She includes "good morning" in with the details, but follows it up by telling me she was in our house getting more of our stuff today.
I went by her place to bring S some things after work. Its weird leaving my family someplace else. Being a visitor there at a place thats taking the role of home for my W and S, but not me. W acted like I was a welcome guest. (Happy as a clam) I didn't go past the front door.
I have been pretty angry for the past few months. A couple weeks alone and I feel it coming and going now. My house hadn't seemed quite this quiet and lonely before tonight.
You're not alone - we're here.
Thanks Hope.
I started thinking about my wife the way she used to be last night. Its been a while since I thought about her that way. I was reminiscing about the good times. I needed to stop. Logging onto facebook helped. I don't get on there much anymore, but a friend posted a picture I was tagged in so I logged on.
One second of seeing W's posts...argh...once again, the terms she uses now aren't things that would have ever come from her before. I can't help but think that she looks like a 30 year old trying to be a high school kid.
Maybe it shouldn't bother me so much. She's not having inappropriate conversations with other guys. Things like this just remind me of how much I really don't know her anymore.
I am sitting in my wife's driveway waiting for my son. This is so wrong.
Man, I hate this place!
Come on man. Buck up. You can handle this.
You're right. I can handle it...but I still HATE that place.
Hang in there EB.....still hoping for the best for YOU.
EB,
I have been pretty angry for the past few months. A couple weeks alone and I feel it coming and going now. My house hadn't seemed quite this quiet and lonely before tonight.
I hear you. Last December 8th I realized how quickly a home becomes a house. Just a mesaningless empty physical structure, actually.
Endure.
You got it Gardner.
Tonight was S's Christmas concert at school. W sent me a text that the saved me a seat just before I got there. I wasn't sure I wanted to sit by her. Very awkward.
When I got there she had saved me a seat...on one side of her...her GF in the other side (GF has taken the place of OM in our sitch). I made a few jokes with the GF...chatted with some of the other dads for a few minutes then excused myself to go video record at the back of the auditorium. It was a good way out.
What an awkward night. I handled myself well. W was once again acting like we are bestest buds. ....
Sounds like you handled it wonderfully EB.
Great job. You were there for your S, and took care of yourself too. You were put in a terrible situation, but you kept your self respect.
I spent some time with friends last night. Did some Christmases shopping etc.
W was here this morning to drop S off for the weekend. (I wanted her to have to see her former home so I asked her to come here instead of having me pick him up). When she was here she said something about dividing up our Christmases ornaments. I snickered. She gave me a dirty look, but wouldn't say what was on her mind. I called her out on it.
Essentially, it was a clear sign we were done. Her tree is decorated already for this year, so she must not be planning on being together next year. I told her that and said that if were just going to get D lets just get on with it already.
Months ago she said she would get out for a while then come back and work on R. I said it seems clear that's not the plan anymore. She responded by telling me she has no plans for the future and is just going with the flow. I told her that she has been in the drivers seat the whole time, but I will not live like this long term. I also said that we need to address things rather than give smirked and dirty looks. We have a S together so married or not we need to learn how to work well together. I followed up by telling her that I don't see us ever working it out at this point. Its possible, but hard to see. I even touched on how weird it is to act like buddies with eachother. I said that may be the best way to be with eachother and gave her credit for being friendly, but told her I have a hard time with it and find it so strange feeling.
When I look at her I don't even see my W anymore. I hate that she dresses like a teenager now too. (I married a sweetheart from farm country, now she looks like a club kid)
It may be time.
[quote] I told her that she has been in the drivers seat the whole time, but I will not live like this long term./quote]
EB, See a opportunity for a great 180?
I had let her slup into the driver's seat as my 180. (I'd historically been the 'driver') Could it be time for me time for me to start sharing that drivers seat?
Slip that is...not slup. Oh the joys of typing on a cell phone!
I'm glad you're back in the driver's seat. Now, if she has "no plans for the future" don't mind read. This may be the case. You have every right to put your foot down, however. Perhaps you can say, "ok, then let's have a time line for when we either start working on piecing our M back together or file for D." That will clear up the fog pretty quickly I guess.
I don't really know if I am in the driver's seat or if I just stepped out of the car all together.
W sent me a text a few minutes ago. Apparently S was having a hard time with all of this when he was with her last night. She took it upon herself to make him an IC appt (didn't even discuss it with me). Should it bother me that i it wasn't even discussed?
I am having to fight the urge to tell her that she is the one doing this...asking her if she is happy now. Does she even see this as a consequence of her actions?
W sent me a text a few minutes ago. Apparently S was having a hard time with all of this when he was with her last night. She took it upon herself to make him an IC appt (didn't even discuss it with me). Should it bother me that i it wasn't even discussed?
I would say no; in the end, going to counseling will be a good thing for your son. It will allow him to start working on his feelings about the situation.
I am having to fight the urge to tell her that she is the one doing this...asking her if she is happy now. Does she even see this as a consequence of her actions?
There's no point to asking her if she's happy. Even if she wasn't she probably won't admit it to you. She knows what she's done.
I'd like to think you're right. Hopefully she does know.
Since I posted last W has texted more. Now she wants to take S to her GF's son's birthday on Saturdays. I just remembered that this is my family's Christmases get together day. (This is going to be fun). She also wants to take him out of town on Christmas. Back to our hometown. This isn't what we planned before.
Me telling her to go file. S having some issues. Scheduling problems for the holidays. (I'm not trying overly hard to help her resolve these since she created the problem)
I wonder if W is starting to see consequences of her actions yet.
I wonder if W is starting to see consequences of her actions yet.
Her actions will tell you if she is. Otherwise let the mind-reading begin.
Hi, EB,
I'm just checking in to see how you're doing.
Cheers!
Dia
Hi Dia! How am I? I'm all over the place. W .over out about 3 weeks ago. She still says she doesn't know what she wants. I told her to just go ahead and D me when she dropped S off Saturdays. She said she wasn't planning on it. I'm sure that I don't want this version of her back though.
TONIGHT:
S had a school event tonight. W asked if I would take him even though it is her night for him. When I was there to pick him up W asked how my day was. I gave my standard "fine, yours?" answer.
She said she was having a hard day today. I said I was sorry, tuned to leave, turned back around, and gave her a hug. The thanked me and was receptive.
It may seem that she is sad about what she has done, but when she has been sad in the recent last it was actually more sad that she is stuck...
Keep on with your being fabulous, mysterious and GAL. She's a tad young for it, but she sounds really MLC to me.
My typing comes off as really bad when typing on this phone.
My work Christmas party is this afternoon.
I can handle it, but it's bringing me down. That sense of loss seems to keep coming back even this far into it.
My work Christmas party is this afternoon.
I can handle it, but it's bringing me down. That sense of loss seems to keep coming back even this far into it.
Practice flirting. Well, maybe not at the office Christmas party. But, mingle with people, make conversation. If you throuw yourself into that, you probably won't even realize your W isn't there.
Go to your party, have fun.
I went solo for the first time ever since I've been with my company and had a BLAST!
Go to your party, have fun.
I went solo for the first time ever since I've been with my company and had a BLAST!
I had the same experience with my office party. I honestly didn't even realize I was solo until I walked to my car to leave.
Make it a game EB. See how many people you can talk to or meet in a given hour or two.
Yep. Talk to people you normally wouldn't and as much as people as you can while you're having the cocktail hour. Good times!
Thanks guys. It will be fine. Ill have a good time.
Some times I actually feel ready to move on with life. Just get past all of this. I have done stuff to my house that I wouldn't have done with W there, gone out some, and had friends over. Other times the reality of the whole situation just smacks me and I need to take a time out. Part of it is the holiday stuff. Part of it probably that I gave her a hug last night (she looked like she needed it when I picked S up). I didn't feel much about it and have no expectation from it, but I think it's affecting me somehow anyway. Another part that's hitting me is that I am really starting to get how the LBS can get the mindset of a WAS. I know that I shouldnt, but I feel a little guilty since I am not sure that I would want her back anymore.
Ill wallow in self pity for a few minutes, suck it up, and go bask in the glory of food and desserts.
Its healthy to ask if you would want her back. You can stay open to reconciliation while moving on. Just move on.
Part of it is the holiday stuff.
The holidays make it 10x worse.
It was an afternoon event. I had fun.
Thanks for checking in guys. It may sound strange, but your comments almost gave me "permission" to enjoy myself if you know what I mean.
Awesome! That is great you went and enjoyed yourself.
It was an afternoon event. I had fun.
Thanks for checking in guys. It may sound strange, but your comments almost gave me "permission" to enjoy myself if you know what I mean.
Good. You deserve it.
Now, how to do that again...
I'm so glad you went and had fun.
When my H first left I had a really hard time socializing - partly because it was sad that I was now solo, and partly just because I was depressed. But I am always glad when I make myself go.
And despite all the pain going on now - heck, because of it - you deserve to go out and have fun. That is the real GAL! For you, not for show in front of W.
It's been an interesting few days.
I told S I was going up to our hometown for my family's Christmases gathering this weekend. He expressed interest in going. W planned totake him to her GF's kids' birthday party that day. W gave in and let him come with me.
W called last week to ask to borrow our video camera. (Another event with GF.) Actually she texted me. I didn't respond for 20 minutes or so, so she called me. She was respectful and appreciative, but I hated that she was calling from GF's house and using my stuff for GF's benefit. I guess it's really "our" stuff and not really "mine" anyway.
W sent me a text Fridays that she was going to put both of our names on the from line on the gifts she is getting for S. She mentioned that she wasn't going to be able to afford much. I agreed to do the same (I would have anyway). Funny how she never seemed to value money so much when I was paying for everything.
S and I went back home for the weekend. W stayed at her new place. When I picked him up, I passed a few inexpensive items to her in a bag and told her I wanted to make sure S had lots to open over there on Christmas. It seemed to touch her.
She had mentioned wanting to do Christmas morning together when we talked on the phone Thursdays night. Actually it was more of a "I guess you wouldn't want to do Christmas together since you didn't want to do Thanksgiving together" statement. ...have the balls to ask if you want to ask! I just said he could do the morning with me then I would take him over to her.
It was emotional torture to go back there. It's where W and I are both from, where we met and spent the first few years together. Even worse when I actually found myself looking for her when it came time to say Grace before Christmas dinner at my Dad's house. This was the first one without her.
Hang in there buddy. We will all get through this holiday season. I am going to try to look on the positive side of everything. Try to do the same - I know at times it's hard.
I will make it. We will make it. I even had a few minutes here and there that I enjoyed myself this weekend. I took S to some snowmobile races this weekend. S started getting sad that W wasn't there though.
I had been at a loss as to what to do about a Christmas gift for her. I decided that I would put together a little stocking for her to be from S and me. Nothing special, just a few little trinkets.
I wish I knew where this was headed. I am moving on as if we are D'd. W said she doesn't know what she wanted but wasn't planning to file when I told her that she may as well just go do it a couple of weeks back. It seems as if we have just moved onto a different stage of limbo.
I will make it. We will make it. I even had a few minutes here and there that I enjoyed myself this weekend. I took S to some snowmobile races this weekend. S started getting sad that W wasn't there though.
I had been at a loss as to what to do about a Christmas gift for her. I decided that I would put together a little stocking for her to be from S and me. Nothing special, just a few little trinkets.
I wish I knew where this was headed. I am moving on as if we are D'd. W said she doesn't know what she wanted but wasn't planning to file when I told her that she may as well just go do it a couple of weeks back. It seems as if we have just moved onto a different stage of limbo.
In reading your post, I just realized something about the saying "It takes 2 to make a M work but only 1 to take it apart." Well, you and me, and many others here, can be the 1 to take it apart. Not that it will be pleasant, but we DO get to decide if we want to stay in limboland. Only takes 1 to leave that place.
As for the present for W, I plan on taking the kids shopping and let them pick something out. It will be from the kids ONLY. My name will not be on any presents to her. This may surprise her family, but that's their problem.
And W is not expecting a present from me as she has already told me she does not plan on buying ME anything, but will let the kids pick something out for me. Thanks honey.
Your choice on the present. I am just trying to "keep it realer" than W. If this is what she wants, I will not placate her any longer by pretending to be her H.
I completely get where you are coming from. I'm going with a little something for two reasons.
1) I know that she bought me something. I saw the credit card bill. It was bought before she moved out.
2) I will do it because that't the kind of guy that I am. I know that I will never beel bad about getting her a small something. That's me. I am the good guy. I don't let her take that from me. She can reject it (like she did the anniversary gift that I got her this past summer...out 10th), but I feel it is the right thing to do in my sitch.
As far as being the one to take it apart - I never wanted it to come to me being the one who made that move. I don't see that anything will ever change if I don't. Heck, W started texting me from her !@#$#ing GF's house just a few minutes ago. She still doesn't get it! It appears it will come down to me. My goal will be to give it one more month before I make any moves toward it or bring it up in discussion.
As far as being the one to take it apart - I never wanted it to come to me being the one who made that move. I don't see that anything will ever change if I don't. Heck, W started texting me from her !@#$#ing GF's house just a few minutes ago. She still doesn't get it! It appears it will come down to me. My goal will be to give it one more month before I make any moves toward it or bring it up in discussion.
Just saying that at this point, she might be content to stay right where she is. She has paid little of a price for it. And I don't want to be the one to push things along, but I won't stay in limbo.
I'm not far from being that one. I have been a beggar for far too long. The situation has made me a better man, but it's also made me a bitter man. I need to know when to say when.
Either it will smack her in the face and wake her up, or we get a D. I think that I am at the point where I can handle either. Like I said though, I will give it some time before making any movement in that direction...for now.
Merry Christmas all!
I've been keeping busy. I took S to a Christmas Eve church service with some neighbors today. Weird to go do stuff like this w/o W. Still, I have to keep moving on with my GAL efforts.
S is here at home with me tonight. W is sitting alone in her new place tonight. (I think she's alone at least) She was here to drop off S earlier. She's still a robot. I had a friend over. After she left he was like "what the hell was that?" You'd think we were good buddies when she talks. I think I'd rather have there be some overt uncomfortableness between us when we talk. At least it would feel honest.
I've kept it pretty distant this past month since she's been gone. On occasion she has brought up something rom our past and spoke about it like as if things were normal between us. I wonder so often if she feels ANYTHING. Out of nowhere last night she sent me a "Good night. Have good dreams," text. I responded a simple "thanks. U 2." Honestly, my initial reaction was a bit of a 'screw you.' I have been fighting serious resentment.
Tonigt I sent her a "Good night, Merry almost-Christmas" message. She responded and said that it made her cry.
It's strange to handle buying presents, wrapping them, putting out Santa cookies and presents under the tree all without the wife. I am holding up OK though. I still wand Christmas to be as good as possible for S.
I think W wanted to to Christmas morning all together. She hinted, but didn't actually ask. I wasn't really open to the idea. I have S in the morning, she has him for the rest of the day tomorrow. They're heading up to the old home town to see her family tomorrow afternoon. Ill head up to see my parents on Saturday.
Its all still a little strange. As Coach says though, I can handle it. I honestly feel sad for W at this point.
I know how you feel. I have been feeling the same way today. I spoke to my step-mother today and told her I feel sorry for my W.
You sound good. Focus on your S tomorrow. Both of you have a great day.
Merry Christmas.
EB,
Merry Christmas to youy!
Hang in there.
(Inner) Peace,
Gardener
EB,
Hope you had a good Christmas. I have been thinking of you and your S and wishing you peace and happiness.
We're all back in the old hometown. S spent last night here with W at her parents' house. I just picked him up. She was a total robot at the handoff. Nothing...absolutely nothing there. No emotion. She's dressing like a little kid again. And the cherry on top? ...my formerly sweetheard of a wife has gotten in two blow out arvuements with her mother since last night. She's such a headcase anymore.
S is with me tonight. I was out with old friends this evening, while S played with his cousins (my sister's kids). We're both at my sister's house now and S couldn't sleep. He was missing W.
He called to talk to her...after midnight. It was really quite sad to hear him talk a out how he missed her. I could kind of make out what she was saying too since the phone was loud. They both sounded so sad...
Ieonder if she will ever come back from this fog. At least she didn't would like a robot this time.
Nothing is harder than seeing our children's sadness because of all of this. Seems like every time they came back from their mothers house I had to put mine back together. This lasted for 6 months or so. They seem to be doing better now.
I know how upset you must be . My husband went out of town the day after halloween 2009 and over the phone he tells me we have to talk he hasnt been happy for a little while I worried the whole time he was gone , every time I would start to ask him about it he would say not till I get home , well he came home Nov.8 2009 and looked at me and I dont love you anymore . Its been years since I have loved you , but we have been intimate since he has moved out, someone please tell me how can that be!I dont hate myself for it I still love him I just want to understand how he can want to be with me when he says I made him unhappy
EB,
The situation has made me a better man, but it's also made me a bitter man.
Well put.
But know that the better will stay long after the bitter has faded into a distant past.
Happy New Year all. Here's to a better 2010.
Happy New Year all. Here's to a better 2010.
Happy New Year to you EB. 2010 will be better.
Thanks. It will be better for you too buddy.
Happy New Year, my friend. Chin up, we will make it better - together.
Hi, EB,
Just checking in. And yes, 2010 will be better. Hang in there!
Dia
I haven't been posting much lately. I dont really feel qualified to give advice, as I have not been successful in my own sitch.
I haven't had a ton to update until now either. W has been out for 6 weeks. I have kept on with life. I have spent a lot of time doing fun stuff with friends and family. S has been with me about 1/2 the time. S and I have done a lot of fun stuff that she has missed out on. She didn't even seem to care at first. I have done a lot around the house and spent time with friends. I keep communication to a minimum with W. Only stuff regarding S for the most part.
W has calmed down a lot in the past couple of weeks. Much of the MLC type things have slowed or stopped. She doesn't seem to be dressing like a teenager when I see her (when S is exchanged). I think she has drastically reduced her involvement with her GF. (Her R with her BFF was over the top and a big problem in the past)
Christmas and New Years Eve were tough. She admitted they were tough on her too. This past week she made extra at dinner and passed it off to me when I came to get S one evening. She did the same with cookies another night. She even texted me last night to see if I wanted to come watch TV with her (one of the shows that we used to watch together started up again). ...I politely declined, but I called and chatted with her for a few minutes on the phone. I even picked up a few things for her at the store this past weekend. This is all so weird.
I still don't know where its going. I know she isn't really happy though. She called crying one night because she missed S who was with me. I said I was sorry. She said it was her own fault. I'm glad she sees that.
I'm at a point where a life together would be nice, but it is no longer necessary. We'll sees where it goes.
Great to hear that you are doing well EB. It seems that she may be thinking of reconcilling. Keep GAL'ing and the confident PMA; it sounds like you are doing great!
-T
Because of this:
I'm at a point where a life together would be nice, but it is no longer necessary. We'll sees where it goes.
You are simply dead wrong about this:
I dont really feel qualified to give advice, as I have not been successful in my own sitch.
If you have improved yourself and haved saved yourself, you ARE a success. Saving the M has never been the definition of success around here.
EB - you are keeping your boundaries up really well. And she definitely is not sure she is doing the right thing. Give it time. Watch and wait. What else can we do?
I'm so glad you're ok - I've been thinking of you!
Thanks Tristan's, GIMA, and Hope. I appreciate you all and need to get backup to speed with how you all are. I hope all is well.
Thanks Tristan's, GIMA, and Hope. I appreciate you all and need to get backup to speed with how you all are. I hope all is well.
Things with my M are, well, not good. Me, I'm handling it.
Gina - the last I saw was shortly after she had you served. My heart really went/goes out to you. Ill have to catch up tonight.
I'm glad to see that you're handling it.
Just so you know, it's likely that she will move out and still not be able to find what she is looking for. I think my W may be going through that. She turned "Getting out" into her holy Grail of happiness so there was no way it can live up to her expectadions. That's just my viewpoint. I could be all wet.
Even if she feels that she made a mistake, i dont know if she could ever admit it after a year of fighting for "her freedom." I wonder if I would want her back if the opportunity came anyway.
There's one possible scenario for your future.
EB,
She refuses to move out of "her" house as do I. So, we have a stand off there.
The rest will sort itself out.
It's been a while since I have been on here. I have just taken a break from all of the R stuff. I've kept busy with S, friends and neighbors, and even decided to remodel my kitchen.
W has been gone for over two months. The holidays were rough, but I've been getting to a new, different place than I have been before. W has missed out on a LOT of fun stuff that I have done. Well...her loss. I really have too much value for myself to continue to beg for her. I don't want the "her" that she is now anyway. I am even kind of excited about the possibilities of the future. I don't wonder what she is up to anymore. I only have contact wih her regarding S. I have been sure to share pictures and video of the activities that S and I have done together though.
The funny thing is that about a month ago, she started making little comments, texts, comments when we talked, about how I'm a good guy, I'm a good dad, and she's impressed with other things that I have done. Then out of the blue one night she asked if I wanted to come watch TV with her. huh? I politely declined. It's two or three weeks later now and she's coming over here tonight for dinner and TV. This will be the first time together in over two months.
Hmmm. Let's see what happens. I have no idea what she has in mind. To be honest, I'm not so sure what I want anymore either.
EB,
I have cooled it on posting lately as well. Part just busy with work and part I just needed a break.
You sound good, and much of what you said I would give a big "Me too."
Just do whatever YOU want tonight when W comes over. All YOUR chioce.
EB
Wow I'm so glad to hear from you. I was worried! You're doing awesome!~ And good job on declining her first offer.
I sincerely hope she's making moves toward you again - let her make ALL THE MOVES.
She had you on the fence before she left where she was ML one night and then moving out the next. So please BE CAREFUL.
However, I DO HAVE MY FINGERS CROSSED FOR YOU!!!! Looking really hopeful!
Hey EB welcome back mate!
Hoping W's moves are positive stuff, keeping my fingers crossed too!
Thanks all. She's here now. It's a little awkward. She's all done up. I don't know if it's for our "date" or if it's just part of the "new her."
We'll see how it goes. All superficial stuff so far.
Well, she's gone.
It remained awkward. I kept buddy-like for most of the evening. We were like pals.
I hugged her before she left and she didn't seem to want to let go. I kissed her face a couple of times and then a couple of pecks on the mouth.
She thanked me, asked if we could do it again, then left.
There seemed to be a split second of emotion, but still not much.
EB,
I'm sure that was a bit strange. Move very, very slowly. If that's what you want. And, most importantly, she needs to work to win you back. If you want her back, and you make this too easy for her to return (IF that's where this is going), then you will probably be right back where you are now in short order.
NO EXPECTATIONS and move at a slow snail's pace.
You're right Gima. She can't have me too easily. Not sure she even wants me to be honest, but I don't know what else she would have come here for if she didn't. We've been through her "coming back" too damn many times only to check out again to keep this crap up though. She seems like such. A headcase.
Like I said, I don't really want the person that I see her as at this point. Every once in a while I see hints of the person she used to be though.
Damn, I can't stand the tough-guy attitude and party girl look that she pulls out. Not the girl that I knew at all. Like I said though, I see glimmers of the old her sometimes.
We would need to get to the point of her being willing to fight for me l. That would be quite a way from where we have been though. Its a long way from fighting to get away from me.
BTW...the new kitchen looks great. What a good way to keep myself occupied.
Like I said, I don't really want the person that I see her as at this point. Every once in a while I see hints of the person she used to be though.
Damn, I can't stand the tough-guy attitude and party girl look that she pulls out. Not the girl that I knew at all. Like I said though, I see glimmers of the old her sometimes.
EB...your words have come out of my own mouth for my sitch and SO many times.
It's like theres two different people inside her...and the tough "we're done" "I just wanna have fun" one is who's on the outside now...but every now and then that sweet caring person I fell in love with comes out.
I know that if the girl I used to know and love ever comes back out, she's probably gonna have a hard hard time living with who she became and acted like towards me and a lot of other people.
I couldn't have said it any better myself NSW.
I brought S8 back to her this afternoon. She had been crying (nice to see she isn't a robot). I asked if I should regret having had kissed her last night. She said no and that she is just having "a day." She said she's frustrated because she "wants it to work, but it's just not."
Sounds like she's done right....?
Then she said she'd like to get together for a "date night" again. WTF?
I historically would have tried to talk through what she wanted, and what she meant by "not working." This time I just told her to let me know what she wants to do and left.
Like I said, I don't really want the person that I see her as at this point. Every once in a while I see hints of the person she used to be though.
Damn, I can't stand the tough-guy attitude and party girl look that she pulls out. Not the girl that I knew at all. Like I said though, I see glimmers of the old her sometimes.
EB...your words have come out of my own mouth for my sitch and SO many times.
It's like theres two different people inside her...and the tough "we're done" "I just wanna have fun" one is who's on the outside now...but every now and then that sweet caring person I fell in love with comes out.
I know that if the girl I used to know and love ever comes back out, she's probably gonna have a hard hard time living with who she became and acted like towards me and a lot of other people.
Well put. And, I agree wholeheartedly. Every now and then, I see glimpses of the woman I fell in love with and M'd. Then, as quickly as she appears, she's gone again.
Every now and then, I see glimpses of the woman I fell in love with and M'd. Then, as quickly as she appears, she's gone again.
and then it makes me think....do I want to live with glimpses?
Luvless, great point. And the answer is I want, and deserve, 100 % of the good parts of my W. I won't settle for less.
Every now and then, I see glimpses of the woman I fell in love with and M'd. Then, as quickly as she appears, she's gone again.and then it makes me think....do I want to live with glimpses?
Hell, in the last two weeks I've seen the first two glimpses in fourteen months. And those glimpses were broaching the subject of remorse. Almost - almost - got sucked in. Instead I emailed her after the phone call
Subject: Our final email.
(Mrs. G),
I just said,
"I was changeable.
You were changeable.
We were improvable."
You agreed.
You said you harbored resentments that you never gave voice to, that you were never taught to give voice to.
And I admitted to the exact same thing, adding that I realize now that my resentments toward you were really misdirected resentments against myself: resentment for accepting the unacceptable, for not voicing it, for fearing the conflict that voicing them would have precipitated.
We never - or very rarely - fought. We should have. I read two separate authors this year who said that never fighting is their number one indicator of eventual divorce. Who knew?
And yet, Wednesday we divorce. You and I. (Mrs. G) and G!. Divorce.
"Pride hears its voices and fear wins again
And another cruel ending calls."
You have needlessly and selfishly destroyed everything. Everything.
Goodbye, (Mrs. G).
Gardener"
And then five days later she tries to put the screws to me in Mediation.
Keep your friggin' "glimpses."
Well put. And, I agree wholeheartedly. Every now and then, I see glimpses of the woman I fell in love with and M'd. Then, as quickly as she appears, she's gone again.
In my case...when she would dissappear back into herself, it was almost as if the tough her was catching herself acting like she used to...and she was like "hey I cant be acting like that".
And yeah...you shouldnt settle for anything else than having 100% of the person you fell in love with back...as the person they became is the one who hurt you anyway.
Ouch Gardener!
GIMA, that's about how my W has been too.
She sent me a text yesterday that she wants to save our family, but just "just doesn't feel the way she should" about me. She said it's frustrating to her. I just said I'm sorry and that must suck. What the hell else can you say to that?
It may sound like a good thing that she would like to save our family, but I've heard this line so much since this started that it just doesn't excite me anymore.
I'm a little at a loss today. W has texted me with little made up reasons to contact me, she proposed our "date" from last weekend even after I turned her down twice. She told me recently that she k ows that I deserve better. She was at her GF's house the other day and left because she knew I would be uncomfortable going there to pick up S8. She told me that I am a great Guy and she doesn't know what is wrong with her. She also told me that she wants to save our family, but just isn't ready for some things yet.
With that all said, she continues to say things like "I just don't feel about you like i should. " I don't feel like I "should" after all of this either. I don't pursue. I don't talk R at all. She still knows that she could one back at any time she wanted to though. I don't think she's really experienced loss yet.
There have been positive steps, so I'm not sure if I should give an "in or out" demand, but I sure don't want to go on like this anymore. I don't think she does either. I honestly think that she saw the grass is brown on that side on the fence now, but after all that has happened doesn't feel a spark with me anymore either.
What to do...what to do...
EB, do you still feel a spark for her? Do you still think you will be happy together if you're together?
Seeing as I'm not a DB model I cant advise either way what you should do but I think those questions are very important in helping you decide what you want.
I'm a little at a loss today. W has texted me with little made up reasons to contact me, she proposed our "date" from last weekend even after I turned her down twice. She told me recently that she k ows that I deserve better. She was at her GF's house the other day and left because she knew I would be uncomfortable going there to pick up S8. She told me that I am a great Guy and she doesn't know what is wrong with her. She also told me that she wants to save our family, but just isn't ready for some things yet.
With that all said, she continues to say things like "I just don't feel about you like i should. " I don't feel like I "should" after all of this either. I don't pursue. I don't talk R at all. She still knows that she could one back at any time she wanted to though. I don't think she's really experienced loss yet.
Agree with her when she tells you that you deserve better and that you are a great guy. "Yeah, I have heard that a lot lately."
Let her know you don't feel like you should either, this is getting old, you aren't attracted to her like you should be, let her know you are thinking about some tough decisions. Then really drop the rope, GAL for yourself, stop worrying about her feelings and open your eyes to the world around you. Have fun and make yourself happy.
Thanks for checking in guys. No, I don't feel that same feeling for her anymore, but I think I could find it again. I've told her some of those things, and have done a half way decent just getting a life. It has been needed. If any newbie's are reading this, heed that advice when you get it.
It just feels like things could sit like this forever and I still have resentment that builds.
No sign of OM still though. I guess that's a good thing.
Coach - you're always saying that we're being watched. I don't k ow that my W was watching a few months ago, but she seems to be now. Mysteriously it seemed to come about just as I started watching her less.
Resentful today. Wondering why I would ever have wanted this horrible woman in my life.
Wow, she really has treated me like #$%&*.
Sorry EB. I understand. But, as tough as it is, we have to keep control of our emotions. Let them out, but then let them go.
THat's often how it works - we watch less, they pick up the rope and start watching more. She has been in flux for so long now I would just try to have the attitude "her loss." If you're such a great guy she should be holding on to you and never letting go. It's crazy. She shouldn't play with your emotions like that and you shouldn't let her.
Listen to what Coach says. That will really drive her crazy.
I'm a little confused today. W started to pursue askinging me to get together for a TV "date" a few weeks back. We did last weekend, but it was weird. She said Mondays that she wanted to do it again. I have been...well, less than receptive this week. Very resentful. I don't want to come off as an a** though after she dispute in some effort. Should I invite her to come watch TV with me tonight, or let it go?
I would not initiate. If she calls and asks to watch TV, your call. She needs to work on winning you back.
Based on her telling you she wants it to work, but just doesn't feel the way she should, I don't think she's ready to work on winning you back. Let her sweat a bit.
I get that. I also get that she made some effort. I have been unapproachable this week.
I may tell her that S and will be wagging a movie and she's welcome to watch it with us.
I'm with GIMA - let her continue to pursue. Let her ask twice. That way you are not being 100% unapproachable, you are just making her try a little harder. Remember, it's counter-intuitive but that kind of thing really does get to a person. It's nice she's being available to you, but remember DR/DB says you shouldn't be immediately available once they start making contact again.
EB,
from one of my few journaling epiphanies back in October:
I visited Dia's thread and rambled for a while since she had mentioned her and her H's resentments. I thought of my resentments this week, thought about the (fortunately) few resentments I had begun nursing and harboring against my wife pre-bomb.
And it struck me: the issues were few, real and they hurt. However, my resentment toward her was really misdirecting and avoiding resenting myself. I was in reality resenting me for not speaking out on the issues, not addressing them, avoiding the conflict that doing so would have caused and for not leading in this aspect of my R & M with my wife.
Could it be that whenever we resent anyone, we are really resenting ourselves, our own failure to address that which produced the resentment: our own inaction?
fwiw
Thanks guys. I think that she's pursuing. I know that I am having a really hard time with resentment. I'm not sure what to do about it.
W has made points to call me and text me more lately. Last night she sent me texts during the Superbowl, then...get this...sent me a message later that night that she was laying in bed fantasizing about a particular sexual time we had together. She called me and texted me today, and out of the blue called tonight and asked if I wanted company. I said fine and she came here and hung out for over an hour.
I was friendly, but not overly receptive. I didn't really want her to be here to be honest. I can't stop thinking about the things that she has said and done. That's where the resentment is coming from. This has gone on for so long. She has been so brazenly hurtful, disrespectful to me as a man. Insulting. She continues to remain friends with people that are just bad news for our marriage.
I can't even sleep because I am replaying things that were said and done over and over in my head. I don't even know this person anymore. We're still playing stupid games. Not talking about what's going on, or where this is headed. I really want to just be done with it all. In the long run though, it may be better to work through it.
She is clearly trying, I just don't know that I want to anymore.
I'm so glad you kept your distance from her! I disagree that she is trying. She left you! And she wants to come back and cake eat and be on the fence just like she was before. Sorry to be blunt here, but I am so proud of you for sticking to your boundaries. That's gotta be hard. I think if a WAS wants sex, texts, dates, etc, they should clearly commit!!! My H and I are working on our M, but holding off on all that other stuff until or if we fully commit to reconsiliation. As long as he is on the fence, it would just wound me to let him come and go as he pleased just because I'm hurting.
You ARE being a man! You are keeping your dignity now that she has walked away. Keep it up. She needs to get the ramifications of her walk away actions.
You're my idol this week. I need more boundaries like this. Although we have no romance, I do let him treat me however he wants out of hope he'll return. BAd me. Good you.
I heard resentment described as feeling anger/frustration with someone for hurting you and you let it continue without addressing it. We get mad at our own inaction.
If something is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up. This is the flip side of transparency.
I agree w/ the above I resent myself for not speaking up as well.
Glad to see that things are turning around a bit.
Keep up the good work
I am resentful, and Coach's description is pretty accurate. The thing is that I have addressed the things that I am resentful over. At the time W's hurtful, disrespectful, inconsiderate, downright, mean actions seemed justified to her.
As part of my efforts to "stop doing what isn't working" I have made a point to not tell her what a headcase she has been and how much she has hurt me. It hasn't gone well when I have tried to address these things in the past. Either way, at this point she knows what she has done and I think is starting to get the ramifications of it. She still doesn't seem to think she has any control over herself or our situation though. By listening to her, you may think she is a real victim for "not feeling the way she should feel" about her husband.
She seems to have pulled back a little after coming over the other night.
S8 had a snowday from school yesterday. I had him the nifty before so I took a vacation day from work and we had a great day together. I spoke with W at one point in the afternoon and she was so bored and lonely. She never asked to hang out with us though. It's almost like she wants to suffer.
She still seems to have the "it's just not meant to be, why fight it" attitude.
Sometimes I am so ready to just be done and let her go. I still have times that I miss her. What kind of a massochist am I?
EB,
I understand and have been working through some anger and resentment the last week or two. A couple of days ago, after a pretty deep emotional bloodletting, I realized I had to get control of my emotions. As usual, Coach has great advice.
I would add what I did, and it has worked for me. I made myself stop focusing on W and our past and why W refuses to work on the M. Instead, I have devoted my mental and emotional energy to the positive things that lie ahead for me:
-being independent again
-deciding where I want to live and what type of housing I want - condo? House?
-realizing things I want to do but haven't
-realizing there is a world of women out there who will be interested in me and, at some point, one of them will be the right one for me.
-thinking of all the things (trips/activities) I will decide to do with my kids.
All of these things help me realize the world will go on no matter what happens in my M.
And if you can focus on those future positives, you will not be dragged down by your current situation or the past. In a sense (and I'm guilty of this too), your W controls the present and tries to control the past with her version of the past. But, YOU control your future at this point.
If W wants back in, she knows where to find you and, more importantly, she knows what to do to win you back (or try). From the things she is saying and her actions, it doesn't sound to me that she's ready to try to win you back or truly realized what she's lost. Until then, my suggestion is to continue on with your life while leaving a door open for her to walk through, if only in your mind.
Quite simply, you decide whether you want to be tethered to the current or past situation. Unburden yourself of those by focusing on your future.
You're not a masochist. Thirteen years is a long time. It deserves a bit of a shot. You just have to decide how much.
Coach,
I heard resentment described as feeling anger/frustration with someone for hurting you and you let it continue without addressing it. We get mad at our own inaction.
Exactly!If something is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up. This is the flip side of transparency.
Could it be that whenever we resent anyone, we are really resenting ourselves, our own failure to address that which produced the resentment: our own inaction?
Gardener, i really appreciate the thought, but I dont know if it's the best fit here. I have never had a problem addressing the things that needed to be addressed. If W did something that was hurtful to me, I was quick to talk about it. I always kept it calm, told her how it made me feel, and tried very hard to be considerate of her and her feelings and asked that she do the same in return.
What I got in return was her accusing me of trying to "control" her actions. Well...I guess I was. I was hoping that she would adjust her behavior away from things that were hurtful to me.
Addressing any of these things now would just be doing more of what doesn't work. If the time ever seems right we can address it then. If not, I think I just need to vent and let it go.
communication is a biatch- I've recently learned about distractions, filters, and various obstacles to doing it correctly.
When I think of it, W did attempt to communicate her needs, but all of those factors were at play and I naturally became defensive- similar to your W. There's always a better way, don't get discouraged.
HIjack - "distractions? filters?" please elaborate.
Working on communication in MC right now with H. Man is it tough. It took 40 min. for H to calm down and hear the MC saying EXACTLY what I said to him in the beginning. IT was amazing to me. What were those blocks that got him to not hear me at all?
It's been long enough.
I just called and asked her for a D. She agreed and wasn't emotional at first but then started to fall apart a little. I have had enough.
I found that she had been talking to a guy that she knew from high school. My cell phone bill showed dozens of calls in a month, the longest for 4 hours ending at 3 am.
I called her on it. She said they were old friends catching up. That was a couple of days ago. Feeling like I was being played, I snooped today. It was more than that. They hadn't met and she seems to have ended it.
I called her and told her I thought there was more than just catchimg up. She denied it.
I told her that I promised to hold on and wait for as long as I could, and this was as it. It was time. She was tough and agreed. As the conversation progressed, she broke into tears, but kept with the D talk. She never asked that we try. I think she has seen D as the ultimate goal for over a year and was just waiting for me to make this move.
She wins. We all lose.
I'm so sorry EB!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry, friend.
The endgame of my sitch, too.
Sucks.
Big time.
It's been a while since my last post.
She never filed. She never came home. She just continues to live a separate life. It's really quite sad to see.
In the mean time, I have gotten a life. I hang out with friends more than ever. S8 and I have been camping, gone to see Monster Trucks, taken on new projects, and I have gotten a motorcycle license.
W doesn't do much. In a way, that's good. At least she isn't hitting the bars or spending 24/7 with her GF anymore. She still doesn't have any interest to work on things though. (I asked her about it a couple of weeks ago after going nearly 2 1/2 months barely speaking)
Every once in a while, she will be warm to me for a couple of days, then she runs away again.
I just go on with my life. I don't have any idea what to expect anymore. She doesn't have the same hold over me that she used to though.
good to hear from you eb.
I don't get here too much anymore. It's a good place to keep a record of things for my own sanity though.
W has been gone almost a year. No D yet. Still doesn't seem to be another man. W still acts like a teenager. She has been coming around more recently though.
About a month ago, W broke down and cried on my shoulder when I dropped S8 off with her after a weekend of him and I camping with family. She said that she was tired of living like this. I told her that if she wanted to fix things, please let me know and I'm willing to do my part.
I received some "good night" text messages after that and significant increased communication after hearing nothing for months. It has been dying off in the past week or so. She just seems so damn content living likt this now.
Today, I may have made a bit of a fool out of myself.
W brought S8 home today for the weekend. Once again, she was giddy bouncy, like a teenager. It seems so fake. I asked her about it. Afterall, I thought that she was getting "tired of living like this."
She seemed to take it serious. More of an 'I feel sorry for you' vibe than anything. She basically said that she left for a reason and she's only sad about it occasionally.
I talked a little about the back and forth stuff lately and how I had hoped that she would eventually miss out life together. No response. I said that I thought eventually she would miss me, hate being alone, and be ready to work on things. No response from her. I said that I appreciated the increased communication and the 'good night' messages from a few weeks ago. She said in a neighborly voice that I was welcome.
She got solemn and started looking down and saying very little. I said that I understand that she doesn't feel head over heels for me and that I understood that. I said that I don't think that things work like that. I told her that my understanding was that if someone gets sick of living like this, they decide to put in the effort to find that lovey-dovey stuff. It doesn't just come to you one day. She kind of agreed in a grunting sort of way.
I told her that I just can't understand why someone would rather have things like this than be at home with their family. She just that she couldn't explain it without coming off as horrible. I said that I assumed that things haven't really changed for her recently. She said "not that much."
We did hug before she left, but she if just SO different. Tiny tank top, blonder than ever, giggle-giggle. She still seems like a rebelious teen who is escaping the evil clutches of the bad bad man.
At least she seemed to take it seriously when I was talking about it. I would guess that her next step is to tell me that she id going to go file...again. This seems to be the pattern.
Nearly two years after the bomb. Nearly a year after she left. I know that things have changed, but it doesn't feel like by much.
EB,
In hindsight, what would/could you have done differently? Have you changed a lot since the Bomb? Have some changes fallen away?
Good questions Pinhead. (Sorry that you find yourself here by the way)
I don't think that I was too bad of a spouse before the bomb. I have made significant changes for the better anyway though. My changes have stuck so far. I listen, validate and am considerate of W's feelings more than ever. Possibly to a fault.
I have allowed her to do anything that she has wanted and let many things just slide. I haven't set much for boundaries.
W puts on a happy face all of the time with me. She tells me that I am "such a good guy" then goes on with her separate life.
I am actually glad that I said something today. I think that she would freaking go on like this forever. It doesn't seem to be an issue for her at all. She has been standing with one foot in and one foot out for way too long. We can't keep pretending that everything is fine. I am OK being friendly if the goal is to fix our marriage, but not to play buddies just to yank my chain.