Here is my current sitch.
Been married 3 1/2 years and have a 3 yr old D. The first couple of years of marriage were good but then W started culinary school and with her schedule and mine plus our daughter we never had any us time. Wife graduated in Dec. and the bomb dropped in Jan. I got the whole ILYBNILWY speach. Went to a couple of MC sessions but she just closed down every time and finally said that yes, if she were willing to try things could be different but it was going to be too hard and she didn't want to do it. I have continued going to counseling with the same counselor and she has been going to her own counselor. I read DR on the advice of my counselor and started GAL, DBing, stopped pursuing, taking care of myself. She started a relationship with OM in Feb. (I'm sure it was an EA earlier) with a chef from the restaurant she externed at the last 3 months of school. Of course she says the typical stuff...I love him, he gets me, etc..
Thing is, she will come back and complain to me about how she isn't getting anything out of the relationship with him and stuff. I've been trying to be a friend and be there for her but now I'm starting to feel like she is cake eating. She is with him for all the physical stuff but comes to me for the emotional stuff. One other thing is that we are still physically living in the same house but half of the week she stays at "friends" houses and the other half I do. She is planning on getting her own place around the 1st of May.
My thoughts right now is that by being there when she needs me or is bored i'm enabling this relationship of hers while I sit in endless limbo. I'm thinking of going dim. Only be there for talk about our D3. Would this be a good thing to do?
Also, she used to bring up divorce talk a lot but now not so much. Although she has said that as far as she is concerned we aren't married anymore. A lot of other stuff seems to be typical for WAW. I can't ask anything about where she's been or what she is doing but she has to know what I'm up to all the time. I get questioned if I'm seeing someone a lot. Etc....
So, any advice for this sitch would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
One other thing that is confusing. She can talk about moving on and a future without me but if I mention anything about a future without her she goes nuts. This I don't really get. Oh, and the OM...he is currently going through a divorce with his wife also.
DC,
I'm sorry you're here. You will, however, get some great (if sometimes conflicting) advice and support on here though.
I think you'll find that your wife had this OM pre-bomb, and that her feelings for him precipitated her "ILBNILWY" feelings and speech. It's fairly typical, and it's her feelings for him that are blocking her desire to want to try and work on your marriage with you.
I agree with you that your wife is cake-eating. At a MINIMUM you need to establish a boundary that you don't want to hear about her boyfriend -- it's disrespectful. You are NOT her gay boyfriend (not that there's anything wrong with that!
) -- you are her HUSBAND, and it's incredibly disrespectful for her to talk to you about him.
My other advice would be to be civil, courteous, friend-LY, but stop trying to be her best friend. Because she definitely is getting some of her physical and emotional needs met by OM, and then her financial and other emotional needs met by YOU. Which is probably why she doesn't bring up the divorce talk anymore; she has it too good -- why should she?
Is the OM married?
Puppy
Puppy,
Good advice and goes along with what i've been thinking. I definitely think she is cake eating and I'm going to talk to my counselor about that this week and my plans to end that. As for the question of the OM, yes he is currently married but he is divorcing his wife of like 12 yrs. He also has two kids which he conveniently gets W to babysit when he needs to do things.
Oh, I'm sure that there was at least an EA with OM before the bomb dropped. I'm sure that is part of the not wanting to try to work on our marriage part. Right now she has it good. She can bounce back and forth as she sees fit but that is going to change very shortly. We can be friends but you're right, I'm not her gay guy friend to talk about crap with the BF with. And I'm definitely not the guy to finance that relationship.
Thanks for validating what I've been thinking. So good to know that I'm not completely off base here. Just need to figure out how to define these boundaries without coming off like an ultimatum as that is really not what I'm going for here.
dc,
Why exactly are your afraid of giving her an ultimatum?
Honestly, because right now we are pretty civil and the last time the big D talk came up it was agreeable to me what she wanted and a 50/50 split with D3 (actually I would get one more day a week than her). With the way she reacts to things right now I fear that she would fly off the deep and and try to pull the full custody/kill me in support move. Thoughts?
p.s. - PorlandDad...I'm in Portland OR too. How are you liking this weather?
If you are happy with the situation the way it is currently working, then it is ok not to want to rock the boat. Be careful, though. I have discovered, at least in my sitch, that appeasement doesn't work long-term. The longer that my W walked all over me, the more she felt that she could get away with.
I ended up giving her a very large sum of money that she used to fund her WA life. When I finally wised up and cut her off, she screamed, pitched a fit, demanded that we get a divorce, etc. etc. but it was the right thing to do. Every time I drew a line and said "This far and no further", she complained and moaned about it, but she respected it.
We are still separated, but she is now living in her world that has boundaries and limits and she knows that I am not a doormat for her to wipe her feet on.
PS. I absolutely love the weather lately! Nicest weekend this year by far. I hope it lasts!
I agree with you there. I am not going to be her doormat and I am going to set boundaries around the OM, money, etc.... I just want to set them as "this is where I'm at with this and you need to respect that" and not "I'm going to do this and you better not cross them or else....". I'm just trying to figure out the wording so I come off as just setting up boundaries for our continued relationship and not placing some blame on her or judging her life. Make sense?
DC,
How do you know the OM is getting divorced?
Also, in what ways are you CURRENTLY enabling her affair financially, if any? Cellphone? Gifts?
Puppy
Puppy,
I know that information from the W and from his facebook page. As far as financially, yeah...cellphone, car insurance, car payment...basically I still take care of the bills I took care of before.
Dc,
Is she working? or just going to school?
Tal
She's done with school. She is currently working two jobs and supposedly saving money to get her own place. She really has no concept of money or how to save it so I don't know how that is going.
Puppy,
I know that information from the W and from his facebook page. As far as financially, yeah...cellphone, car insurance, car payment...basically I still take care of the bills I took care of before.
DC,
I think the possibility is very strong that he is lying to your wife about the D thing, or at LEAST exaggerating it. He certainly wouldn't be the first one to lie on Facebook, and in adulterous relationships, BOTH parties lie nearly 100% of the time, so just factor that in to your decision-making somewhere.
As for the finances, I'd suggest that you immediately end any financial support that directly enables her affair. The cellphone would be the logical place to start, and I would let her know that "I will no longer financially enable your affair. I can't stop it -- that's your decision, you're an adult -- but I damned sure won't pay for it."
Entitlement is a huge undercurrent of affairs. If she wants to be a grown-up here, she can start by learning that she's not entitled to have her husband support, financially, all of the things that he did when she was committed to him.
Puppy
DC2,
I wanted to circle back on this one:
She started a relationship with OM in Feb. (I'm sure it was an EA earlier) with a chef from the restaurant she externed at the last 3 months of school. Of course she says the typical stuff...I love him, he gets me, etc..
How is it you discovered her affair? Did she just ANNOUNCE it to you? (that's how you make it sound here)
Puppy
Puppy,
You are totally correct that he could be lying about the divorce but at the very least he and his wife are separated since they are living in separate apartments. Pretty sure of that or otherwise how could my W be crashing at his place or taking care of his kids there? I think he is getting divorced but I think he is stringing the W along as a cushion for his own fall from grace. I'm sure this will all come crashing down eventually once the high from the new relationship wears off and they both realize the destruction and wake they left.
As for the discovery, well....the night he made his feelings known was pre-bomb and she came home and told me. Of course she told me under the assumption of no way would it happen. Then when she dropped the bomb and we went to MC she confessed that she wanted to see him and that was the route she was going to take.
A little more background on him and just to add insult to injury. The restaurant he works at is the same place we did valentines day for the last 3 years and is also where we had our wedding party dinner....OUCH!
I would strongly consider exposing to the OM's wife. He's probably trying to keep BOTH plates spinning, as you note, and that may just do the trick.
If nothing else, she deserves to know the truth, and make her own decisions accordingly.
Puppy
As for the discovery, well....the night he made his feelings known was pre-bomb and she came home and told me. Of course she told me under the assumption of no way would it happen. Then when she dropped the bomb and we went to MC she confessed that she wanted to see him and that was the route she was going to take.
I just find that a little odd. That, and the thing you said about her strong reaction to even the THOUGHT of you moving on without her, makes me feel that she is crying out for you to FIGHT for her.
Just my gut, but most spouses who are "done" don't make grand pronouncements about their infidelity without getting dragged kicking and screaming into them. And they usually try to talk their betrayed spouse INTO dating, not the other way around.
Puppy
That's an interesting observation about fighting for her. I've thought of that too and my MC said that some of the things she has done sounds like she is seeing if I'm still interested in her. But how do I fight for her without totally pursuing her which I did in the beginning and it pushed her away like crazy?
Yeah, I did the typical beginning....begged, pleaded, tried to reason logically...etc... Then I read DR and saw that that really was not the way to go.
And just to journal a little about today and what just happened. So W left yesterday afternoon to go work in her restaurant job and stay out for the night. I didn't call, email, text and she didn't either. Today she had to be at her second job at 7am to work until 2pm. Same thing...no calls, emails, text msgs from either of us. Just got a call from her but I didn't pick up as I try not to answer all her calls and was actually talking to a co-worker anyway. She was all pleasant and just wanted to talk about my day and her day and give me her plans for the night. Sounded like she just wanted to talk. So confused sometimes by that...
Also, a little more background info here. When I met my W she was in AA and had been in rehab for alcohol and drug abuse 6 months earlier. Once she started culinary school she fell back into the drinking thing. Staying out late, getting hammered...which i voiced my disapproval of but it fell on deaf ears. She also doesn't like therapists because growing up whenever she acted out her parents sent her to a therapist instead of dealing with her actions themselves. She has been told she may be bipolar by therapists before but doesn't trust them so she feels like they are just out to get a paycheck and not help her. She also refuses to believe that anything she is doing now is going to adversely affect our D3 and thinks she will be fine because she is young and if both parents love her nothing bad will come of this...even though everything she hears and reads says otherwise. It's like she is in complete denial about the ramifications of any of her actions. Also, the OM was her boss when she was externing at the restaurant and now because of their relationship she can never work there since the owner won't let couples work in the kitchen together and she knows if they end it he won't let it happen since he runs the kitchen. Nice huh?
Talked to W a little while ago. Light small talk about my day and her day and her plans for the night. She asked if she could call D3 later and I said that would be ok. She sounded kind of distant in the talk and I asked her if everything was ok. She asked why and I told her just something in her voice sounded off and she replied that she was good and at peace but thanks for checking on her and that I was the best. I replied back thanks, I think I'm the best too. Don't really know what to make of comments like that. I don't read too much into them since I know I should believe anything really I hear or see but sometimes they still make me wonder for a minute.
Yeah, I can see that. I'm sure there has to be a lot of guilt consuming her. If not for me then at least for D3. With her new life she doesn't have much time for her and I know that has to weigh on her when she sees how great a relationship I have with her. She also makes comments and gets into discussions with me about it being ok for me to go out and date or just have a one night stand. Yeah, that would be nice...then I could validate your lifestyle. I've made it pretty clear that when I make a vow I stick to it so I don't know what she is trying to accomplish with all of that other than trying to start an argument with me which I never let her do now. I can tell that drives her nuts.
Puppy,
One thing I'm thinking about before I go to bed. Is her feeling guilty a good thing or a bad thing?
It's a "neither" thing. It just shouldn't have much impact on your strategy one way or another. Many newbies make the mistake of latching on to what they think are "baby steps" (many of us hate that term to begin with -- blccch!), and are, in actuality, nothing but puffs of simple GUILT, or -- worse -- the wayward spouse is in a good mood because they just got their OM/OW fix (in affair situations, "GOOD = BAD" and "BAD = GOOD" when it comes to their moods).
I do think it can be a good thing if a spouse is nice to you following some sort of boundary enforcement or exposure on your part, as it can mean a sign of newfound respect (and women closely tie respect with love), but other than that, you simply shouldn't put too much weight on it one way or another.
Puppy
Ok...good to know. I guess for me I would rather she feel guilt rather than nothing at all but you're right that I shouldn't put too much weight on anything really she does.
On other things, W didn't call D3 last night (which is really no surprise these days) but I had a great night with her. I love spending so much time with her and our relationship is getting a lot stronger so I am happy for that. I don't think she gets it that she is loosing her relationship with D3 and I am getting a great one with her.
So what were your thoughts of cutting off any financial enabling, and exposing to OM's wife? You never commented on those ideas.
Puppy
Puppy,
I'm going to tell W we need to talk this weekend and I'm going to let her know she needs to start picking up her end of the bills. I'm sure there will be some resistance but it needs to be done and honestly this is her choice so she needs to face the reality of it. I'm going to have to do some research on the OM's wife thing. I don't know who she is but I'm sure I can find out. She may even know already but if not then she's going to find out.
W called this morning while I was driving D3 to school and said she was sorry that she didn't call last night. I told her that she needed to make time for D3 because she missed mommy and she is starting to see what is going on and is having problems with it. I told her some of the things D3 has been doing and W said it breaks her heart. I wanted to say then freaking stop what you are doing but I didn't. I just put on a happy face and let her talk to D3 on the phone while I was driving. Some things I will just never understand.
Good job.
btw, the next time she says that about "breaking my heart," use the validation technique, with a twist:
"I agree; this is very hard on all of us."
or
"I agree -- this must be very traumatic for her."
Basically, you start with the phrase "I agree," but then you either make the following little "truth dart" value-neutral, or sometimes you can even make it a full-on truth dart as to what it is she's doing, but the "I agree" preface softens it.
YOU know your wife better than any of us do. Anticipate what her reactions to each are going to be (to the exposure to OM's wife and the new financial stuff), and how you're going to respond to it. I can help you phrase those if you wish.
Puppy
I like that validation technique with a twist idea and will definitely put that one in play. With the financial stuff I'm pretty confident she will say something along the lines of "if I have to pay for all of that then how will i live and be able to support our daughter?" That's pretty much how I think that one is going to go. Any thoughts on a response to that?
I like that validation technique with a twist idea and will definitely put that one in play. With the financial stuff I'm pretty confident she will say something along the lines of "if I have to pay for all of that then how will i live and be able to support our daughter?" That's pretty much how I think that one is going to go. Any thoughts on a response to that?
"I agree, this is going to be difficult on all of us."
if pressed, then:
"I think we can both agree that D's needs come first, and she will be well taken care of. What WE need to do is figure out an equitable distribution of our monthly obligations. I will continue to more than help take care of the family's NEEDS, but I have decided that I am no longer willing to pay for anything that directly enables your affair."
Have you figured out in what other ways the family's (your) finances are being used to either directly or indirectly pay for her dalliances?
This is what I sent to my wife, appr. two weeks after getting proof of her affair and confronting her about it:
(Wife),
Today I have opened a separate checking account for my direct deposit, and will use the account to continue to pay our joint bills. As mentioned earlier, you are now responsible for your own credit card payment, as well as the other items mentioned below.
I will transfer $175 each week from this new account into our existing joint checking account, estimating $135 for groceries and $40 for your gas to and from your job and the boys' activities. If there are other necessary items that the boys need (haircuts, clothes, medicine, etc.), please let me know and I will transfer the funds as needed. I will work directly with the girls on their needs, and have already told them that you and I will help them with $60/week for groceries. To help pay for that, I cut them back to a cheaper cellphone plan, and told them that they need to monitor their usage carefully as they will be responsible for any overages. I think we should continue to "link" our financial support to their "full-time student" status, but we can discuss.
I will continue to make sure our family's needs (not "wants") are met. I will NOT pay for:
- your credit card payment (I will transfer, each month, an amount equal to 1/3 of your monthly payment), currently about $520/month, to help offset the expense, since we jointly rang up those expenses.
- your cellphone
- your hair coloring (cuts are fine), nails, clothes, make-up
- additional plastic surgery and procedures (I know you used your own paycheck for this, but that was supposed to have gone toward your tummy tuck balance, as we had discussed, so one way or another, I've been paying for beta peels and Botox, which I will no longer do. We have other more pressing needs).
- take-out (this may be tough, due to baseball, but I will help out as needed)
And we still need to do something about the BMW, which we cannot afford.
As mentioned last week, you need to try and get full-time employment as soon as possible, so we can begin to attack our credit card balances and get both of ourselves in a better financial position as we move forward in this. We can work together to make sure that the boys aren't home alone for extended periods of time, and I'm sure your parents would help in that regard as well.
The above arrangement is obviously temporary, until we can reach a more formal legal agreement on our finances, which I of course will abide by. Please let me know if you feel like I missed anything.
Puppy
She doesn't have access to my bank account so she can't use that money to fund the affair. Long story short, she has really bad credit from before I met her and she was blackballed by the banks until this year so they wouldn't let me add her to my accounts. Funny how that works.
I think I'm going to ask her to pay for her half of the cell phone bill, the car insurance, and her car. I'll continue to pay for the other bills as the are mostly dealing with the house and I'll still live there and with D3's school. I will let her know though that pending a permanent dissolution of the R that she will need to contribute to D3's school.
Sounds fair enough.
btw, how's her cell usage? Is it up dramatically? Text messaging?
Puppy
Oh yeah....it definitely is. She's living the single life...she's texting like crazy.
PDT - my W and I agreed on a similar arrangement where both of us deposit a set amount each month into a joint account for common bills (mortgage, child expenses), but we each now have our own checking accounts and pay for our own meals, gas, utilities, phones, et cetera.
The only thing left to split now is the joint savings account, the 401k/Roth accounts, and the tax refund.
Oh yeah....it definitely is. She's living the single life...she's texting like crazy.
God, they're so predictable, aren't they???
My wife used to stand, with her cellphone held out in front of her, at our boys' baseball games, just waiting for the fix that came with its warm, comforting vibration . . .
Pathetic.
Yeah they are. My wife won't let her phone out of her site. She even sleeps with it in her hand. Waiting on the fix....
I just don't get it and I guess I never will...
My wife also has this weird thought that a relationship will always be all fireworks and butterflies that you get in the honeymoon phase. She thinks because it's not like that now that we aren't meant to be together....
That's a very immature view of love.
What is her parents' relationship like?
It is a very immature view of love...but I guess it explains the OM some. The longest relationship she has been in before me was about a year and there were some breakups in that year. Her parents have a good relationship but all growing up they moved around a lot for her dad's work and he was always having to travel so that could make it seem like her parents were always in that phase. BTW...her parents and sister all are supportive of her but want us to stay together. She also hasn't told any of them about the OM.
And is it just me or does anyone else with a WAW seeing OM want to just confront the OM directly and have it out?
And is it just me or does anyone else with a WAW seeing OM want to just confront the OM directly and have it out?
It would be counterproductive for custody in my situation which is why I've held off.
Yeah, I wouldn't do it because it would be counterproductive in so many ways but man, I would feel good about it for at least a couple of hours.
You know WAWs are a funny bunch. I remember back when I was trying to use logic against what she was doing with OM (before reading DR) I told her you know you are just a rebound for him since he is getting divorced after 11yrs and when the need for your cushion is gone you will be too. Her response...I can't believe that because if I did I would have to admit to myself that's what he is for me. I was dumbfounded by that response...
Maybe people have different experience, but I think it becomes real hard for her friends and family to be genuinely supportive of her when she admits and OM. I've seen elsewhere that often these relationships don't withstand the cold light of day. For me, (in a pre-last-resort moment), I pointed out that I assumed all of her co-workers knew about the nascent A because they're so obviously flirtatious. Who knows if it helped, but it knocked her into silence for a bit. It's the usual what's obvious to the outside observer is not obvious to those involved situation. When she said that she told her family and friends, I also asked if they knew about the OM. Being good and decent people, they're not likely to support her directly on the topic of OM ...
One interesting thing I've found that there is often an implicit assumption that people have that the H has done something amiss (affair jumps to mind first, but also violence, alcohol, drugs, MLC for the H) when W leaves. I find myself going through the whole spiel of "wife moved out, no there was no big blow-up fight, I didn't have an affair, never any violence or drinking or drugs ..."
Keep being strong for yourself.
I agree with you there. I know the reason she hasn't told her family is because they would go off on her. It's not really my place to tell them so I won't but if they were to call and ask then I wouldn't lie to them about it. I'm just not going to volunteer that info to them at this moment.
Well, W actually came home and slept here last night instead of with OM. I'm sure that doesn't mean anything other than our house is closer to where she works and she had to be at work at 7am. Fully expect her to not stay here tonight. I'm sure this all confuses D3 even more...especially because we don't sleep in the same room. I just have to stay strong and be the grounded one for her. She is the innocent one in this and is the only one without a choice in what happens.
Today I have IC so that should be good. Need to run through some stuff in my head and just really vent some. Wanna run everything by him about getting W to start paying some of her bills and get his opinion on in and maybe some coaching on responses to what I'm pretty sure she is going to say. Combine that with what I got from Puppy here and I should be set.
And is it just me or does anyone else with a WAW seeing OM want to just confront the OM directly and have it out?
It's just about the ONE thing that everyone agrees on around here. It raises the OM in importance (think of an American President meeting with some ragtag terrorist leader), you may not be able to control yourself, and it will only give the two of them something to have a good laugh about.
DON'T DO THIS.Puppy
From the "other side of the camp"...being female I confronted the OW...according to H, this and a few other things extinquished the flames and caused a bit of guilt to permiate the relationship on the part of the OW because up to that point she only knew what H told her about me...after getting "my side" she felt bad (according to H)
BUT...it can go either way and with OM I think it has more potential for outbursts or physical violence then with women...plus OW was in another state and I spoke to her over the phone...
Just another point of view because each sitch is different...and you never really know what is right to do and what is wrong until it is done and you see the result.
Lin
Puppy,
Don't worry, I'm not going to do that. Not that it doesn't cross my mind from time to time but that's just the 'guy' in me wanting to do it. I know that it would be completely detrimental on so many different ways to my current sitch with W and with future things with W and with D3.
So, W called this morning and wanted to know if I wanted to spend time with her on Friday since it's her birthday. I acted cool about it and said sure, it'd be cool and I didn't have any plans for Friday. She started questioning me some on not sounding "convinced" that I wanted to do it and I just told her that I had just woken up and had some things on my mind...left it at that. She also asked about Easter and I said I didn't have any plans other than having a good time with D3...hunting some eggs, maybe going to the park if the weather was good. She suggested that maybe we could do something together that morning and I said that would be good and D3 would enjoy that. She started talking about work and how she is tired all the time now and doesn't get to see D3 that much and I employed the Puppy valiate with a twist....I understand and it's hard on all of us. She just kinda went...huh, and left it at that.
So far today is ok. Getting some work done at the job and head out in a few for IC for my weekly get everything off my chest I can't say to W session. Should be good and leave me feeling calm and at peace.
Had a good session with the IC today. Talked about everything that has been going on with me, D3, and W lately. He gave me some things to look for in D3 to make sure she is coping well. He also said that based on W's behavior patterns and in the few times he has talked with her he thinks she is either bipolar or borderline personality disorder. He gave me some stuff to read up on them and see if it seems to fit for either. Based on what I know of both of those I think she may be bipolar (and was actually diagnosed with that when she was a teenager but she doesn't believe it is true). We talked about protecting myself and starting to untangle the financial stuff and how to handle telling W about it. He also talked to be about consulting a lawyer to see what I would be on the hook for as far as spousal support and get that information before I start asking her to take her bills as I may be paying them anyway. I think that is pretty good advice and I will be doing that later this week or early next week.
So, good session...some rough stuff to go over and it kind of depresses me some to think about but the sooner I get through this the better and it will help me to detach more.
Puppy,
Don't worry, I'm not going to do that. Not that it doesn't cross my mind from time to time but that's just the 'guy' in me wanting to do it. I know that it would be completely detrimental on so many different ways to my current sitch with W and with future things with W and with D3.
So, W called this morning and wanted to know if I wanted to spend time with her on Friday since it's her birthday. I acted cool about it and said sure, it'd be cool and I didn't have any plans for Friday. She started questioning me some on not sounding "convinced" that I wanted to do it and I just told her that I had just woken up and had some things on my mind...left it at that. She also asked about Easter and I said I didn't have any plans other than having a good time with D3...hunting some eggs, maybe going to the park if the weather was good. She suggested that maybe we could do something together that morning and I said that would be good and D3 would enjoy that. She started talking about work and how she is tired all the time now and doesn't get to see D3 that much and I employed the Puppy valiate with a twist....I understand and it's hard on all of us. She just kinda went...huh, and left it at that.
So far today is ok. Getting some work done at the job and head out in a few for IC for my weekly get everything off my chest I can't say to W session. Should be good and leave me feeling calm and at peace.
DC,
Overall, very good, but next time to be more mysterious and unavailable, esp. if she asks you out ON A FRIDAY NIGHT (good gosh, man, even 13 year olds know to PRETEND you're busy on a Friday nite, LOL!!)
A better answer would have been "Sounds like fun, but I had some plans already. Let me get back to you" or something similar. Maybe bag out on the Friday thing, while being vague and mysterious, and then opting IN to the Easter thing with the family.
As they teach us in sales, you don't want to convey to the prospect that you could literally shoot a gun thru your appt. book and not hit anything.
Overall, you did very well tho, and I love the way you thru in the validate-with-a-twist (hmmm, we need a NAME for that drink).
Puppy
Yeah Puppy, I agree about the Friday night thing and I do that most all times she asks if i'll hang out now but Friday night is one of my nights with D3 so she knew I wouldn't have any real plans for that night. I usually don't have a babysitter keep D3 on the nights I have with her because I want that time with D. She needs to at least see one parent that is grounded and spending time with her. If it wasn't W's birthday on Friday I would have blown it off. Not getting her a present...I will let D3 pick her out something small but I will at least hang out with her for a few hours that night and let her see how happy I am no matter what she is doing.
Little journaling here. Pretty sure W will not be coming home tonight or that I will talk to her and I'm pretty glad about that. I'm kinda bummed out after the IC session now about all the stuff I need to do to untangle the financial stuff and find out about spousal/child support issues. Just makes me think about things being over and honestly it hurts. I've been doing pretty well with everything and making good progress with myself but it still hurts to think about everything being over. I know nothing is set in stone and there is still a chance but I have to face the facts that there may not be a chance and all of the ramifications of that and it sucks. But, I will get through it and I will have a good relationship with D3. I just have to remember that I can only control myself and my actions and every day is another day to get stronger and to better myself.
Went to the gym and worked out and now I'm home playing with D3 and am feeling a little better. I'm still trying to cope with the swings in W's behavior. Some days things are good and I think we are making some progress only to find the next day things are back to square one or worse. Really takes a toll on me sometimes. I picked up the book No More Mr. Nice Guy today and am going to start reading that. I think I've been a doormat for her for awhile now due to her mood swings and the eggshell walk that goes with them so I need to figure all that out. Hopefully I will gain some insight into this...
It's a great book -- I think you'll get a lot out of it.
Puppy
Read the first 3 chapters...very insightful. I see where I have been the Nice Guy in our relationship and how that has affected my moods and view of myself. Time for some change...
So, W called this morning on her way to work and we got into a fight about stuff. She asked me some questions and I told her how I felt and she didn't like the answers so she started in on me a little and instead of just owning my feelings and letting her have hers I started trying to defend my feelings. Not a good thing. I realize that that is one of the things I need to work on for myself. I shouldn't feel attacked when someone doesn't feel the way I do and try to defend it and I should try to placate anyone to make them happy. Typical nice guy stuff and it has to stop. Working hard on it but as they say, Rome wasn't built in a day and this is going to take time. Pretty bummed about the fight and mad at myself for getting into it. Backslid some there but I have to regroup, refocus and get on with it. Any words of wisdom from people who have been through this before?
dc,
DON'T ENGAGE WITH HER at this point. No R talks. Just say "I really don't want to talk about that right now," and exit gracefully.
Looking forward to hearing how your finances talk goes this weekend. This woman needs her entitlement wings clipped.
Puppy
You are right as always Puppy. Just hard not to get baited in sometimes...especially when you get woken up with a phone call. Sheesh....I have so much to learn.
My own personal awareness has grown over the past few weeks, and No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG) is a great add-on that I'm currently working through.
I identified the following six pillars of strength that, while a bit vague in the below form, provide some guidelines for me to assess my situation and life moving forward:
1) Living Consciously: Doesn't act out of self-blindness.
2) Self-Acceptance: Non-defensiveness and willingness to hear critical feedback or different ideas.
3) Self-Responsibility: Sense of control of destiny.
4) Self-Assertiveness: Someone else's disapproval won't matter.
5) Living Purposefully: Sense of control of destiny, purpose, and direction.
6) Personal Integrity: Do what you say you'll do; Be honest.
My assessment so far is that it is a 'house of cards'. Without a good foundation, we fall. For instance, I lost a number of these pillars and put too much pressure on my wife for too long -- she collapsed (granted, into the arms of another perhaps). By rebuilding these I'll do a better job of standing on my own two feet again - regardless of what happens in my M.
Anybody have any thoughts on what it means to stand on our own two feet again?
Happy Easter everyone! Today has been a pretty up and down day. W came by this morning to spend some easter time with D before she had to go to work. She bitched some about her work schedule and how she hates it and never gets to see D and how she doesn't know what to do. I just let her vent and listened. It was nice to see her and D enjoying finding eggs together. D misses her so much. Now she's at work and I'm a little down because it's a holiday that should be spent with family but it's not. I am enjoying playing with D though and it's what keeps me going. W was here most of the day yesterday and eventually it led to us talking some about the past. I didn't say too much just mostly listened and some of it was hard to take because it was true and I know I messed up some. She told me there were times when she was going out drinking with friends and would be talking to me on the phone and say if I wanted her to turn around and come home then she would but I would just tell her to go out with her friends. She said those times she really wanted me to take a stand and I didn't. I was placating her so I wouldn't get her mad in the hopes that we could avoid an argument. Typical Mr. Nice Guy stuff. I can see now how I did that through a large part of our relationship and how I need to change that for me if there is going to be any chance of this relationship in the future and if there isn't for any other relationship I get in. Like I said it hurt to hear but it's good because it's the first time she has told me anything about what went wrong. I think that is in some ways positive. She still says she needs to move out and be on her own with no hope of a future for us before she can figure things out. I don't really know how to take that but if that's what she needs then I will respect that and give her that space. She also said she realizes the risk she takes there that she could lose me forever with that choice. I just acknowledged that....said yes, that is a risk you take. Not going to sugar coat that one for her because it is true. The further she pushes me away the more chance she takes that one day I will wake up and be done with it all.
I'm also in a little bit of a moral dilemma with the whole OM thing. On the one hand I still love my W and want to work things out with her. On the other, I think that by her having the OM and me not just ending things because of it we're both setting a bad example for D. How have other people thought about this and handled it? I mean, I think if this were D in a marriage and her husband were doing this crap to her I would tell her she didn't deserve that and to leave him. I feel like such a hypocrite because I'm not doing just that.
DC,
Did you ever have the finances talk with her?
Puppy
Puppy,
I haven't had it yet. I am going to talk to a lawyer this week to see what I can expect to pay in spousal support (I make about 4 times what she does and live in a no-fault state) and that will be what I give her. No more, no less. Once I find out about all the legalities then I can figure out how to handle the whole situation better. If it has to come down to a choice between OM and me and she chooses OM then I will know how to proceed. Make sense?
Yes, but that's not what I was referring to. I was talking more about deciding to no longer enable her affair in any way, like her cellphone for instance. That has nothing to do with the spousal support issue.
Puppy
Puppy,
Didn't get into that over the weekend. My plan is to see a lawyer this week and find out spousal support...give her that money that she is entitled to and stop paying for her stuff. So in essence, I won't pay for her car, insurance, cell, etc....
She called last night and wanted to talk about everything with us and after awhile I just kinda laid it all out there for her. Told her that the thing with OM was disrespectful to me on a number of levels and that I can't honestly support that. Basically, put the ball in her court to make a choice. Told her in so many words that she's going to lose one of us and she has to decide. She asked what my plan was and I told her it was to find out legally what the options are and then set up a time for us to talk to a mediator as I still want this to be civil. If she chooses to break ties with OM then the going forward can be put on hold but if not then I have to do what is right for me and our D and to protect us. She started in about how she was trying to move slowly with all this and all and how she didn't mean to disrespect me and didn't go out to find OM and I just told her I didn't think she purposefully went to find someone else but that she allowed it to happen and that was still wrong. By the end of the conversation she was backpeddaling and contradicting herself on a lot of issues and I just told her that it was late and we should stop talking about it while we were both tired and emotional.
I don't know if it was the right thing to do or not but I feel a lot better about it now that it is all out there and she knows where I stand and what my plans are. She has the choice to make now and she has to live with that choice. I know that I am better than OM. I also know that if she continues on the path she is on that it will suck but I'll get through it and I'll be happy in my life again and that D3 and I will be ok.
So it was a trying weekend but at least things are moving in a direction now and not stuck in a holding state that nobody wants to be in.
Hmmm...interesting. W just sent me a text apologizing for pressing me into talking about R last night and telling me she hopes I have a good day. Huh?
She's nervous, because you PULLED AWAY. Classic DBing, and an indication of how WELL you did.
Let her squirm -- DON'T RESCUE. If she asks you again "what are your plans?" (and she will), just be vague and say things like "I'm learning more about what my options are," and "I'm still deciding some things," or even "I don't want to discuss this right now."
You handled it very well -- my congrats, as I know that wasn't easy.
Puppy
Agreed on the "Don't Rescue".
My first inclination in the past was to offer something back if the conversation started going in the direction I wished/hoped for. I learned a couple of times that as soon as I gave in just a little bit W would see weakness and jump on me for something unrelated.
I've learned to let my statements and actions stand as is without backpedaling -- but it is always a temptation.
I'm seeing some progress with my W (a whole week of positive interactions). It's enough to give me false hope, which is dangerous, I know.
I agree with you guys on this...I'm not going to rescue her on this. I'm not going to talk about it with her anymore unless she brings it up and then only if it is not to rehash what has already been said. She knows where I stand now and knows what the future will be based on what she decides to do. She does have a little rescue built in with the fact that if she breaks off all ties with OM then I will hold off on moving the paperwork forward. No matter what I still want to go to the lawyer and mediator and get everything in order and if I have to file it then I will. If she changes then I can hold on to it. I'm sure she is going to test my resolve in this and I'm sure she will ask about it at some future time and my answer is honestly going to be that I'm exploring what my options are...because I am.
The funny thing is...as much as it sucks to think about where this may end up it feels damn good to have my nuts back for a change.
DC,
Be prepared for her to start promising you the moon and the stars. Much of what she says will be lies, or -- at best -- spinning the truth. Remember: only when her ACTIONS aligns with her WORDS -- over time -- will you know she is speaking the truth.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy. I hear what you are saying and know it's the truth. Didn't speak to W at all yesterday except for the couple of text msgs in the morning. Gonna be dim for awhile and see how she reacts. Even though I know it wouldn't mean anything I wouldn't mind getting some moon and stars promising for a change instead of the crap getting dumped on me I usually get.
Last night was pretty cool. Went and played volleyball for a couple of hours and caught up with some old friends I haven't seen in awhile. I am so glad to be back into playing some now. It's amazing what you give up without even thinking about it and how much in hindsight you realize you shouldn't have. Pretty tired this morning due to not enough sleep. Gonna make today kinda rough but it'll be ok.
Thinking about the moon and stars comment some more...I think knowing my W and her stubborn streak and wanting to be right I won't get any moon or stars treatment until the very last moment before the paperwork is filed. Just my thoughts on that....
Yes, that would be when it's most likely to come.
dcsquared, I'm going to jump in here since I have been dealing with the "promise the moon and stars" sitch lately. Here's my perspective:
Yes, it feels good to finally hear what you've wanted to hear since all this started. She's sorry, she loves you, she'll do anything to make it up to you. xBF wrote me a long letter saying all these things. So I got my hopes up. But then nothing. There was no follow up action. I was disappointed. More talk about wanting to give it another try. Ok, then let me see you try. Again nothing, no action. More disappointment.
I just want to forewarn you that while it sounds good it's still very difficult to deal with. Don't jump at the first declaration. Puppy is right: only when the actions match the words consistently can you start to believe.
Yep. And I learned this THE HARD WAY over the years.
Thanks puppy and PH. You guys are definitely right and I'm sure that if/when it happens it will be difficult to deal with. It would be a change though from the norm and in some way I think that would at least be something...good or bad. Right now I'm planning for things to end. If they don't...bonus, if they do then I'm prepared for it. I'm focusing on myself and D3 and trying to keep our lives sane and happy. Some days are good and some are bad but I feel like I've turned a corner since the good days outweigh the bad days now. W knows where I stand and knows that she has a decision to make and that I won't wait forever for that to happen. It's good that way because I can focus on my life and not worry about the R because there is nothing more really to be said or done until she makes a change one way or the other. I'll continue to DB, GAL, and making myself and D3 happy. If she does decide to come around and do the moon and stars thing then I'll approach it slowly and cautiously and look to her actions and not words and go from there.
Hey DC,
You sound really level-headed and mature where you are right now. Some of that may be bravado, but whatever it is in truth, remember it. Stick it in your pocket. Put a pin in it and tack it to the corkboard. Take it down and look at it from time to time, because that is exactly the attitude that wins in these sitches.
Keep strong and keep working.
PD,
You could be right that some of it could be bravado but I'm getting pretty secure in the fact that our family and I should be worth fighting for and if W is not willing to do that then it really will be her loss. Like I said though...there are good days and there are bad and I have to take each one as it comes and keep working on myself and getting stronger.
So here's an interesting little exchange between W and me that happened a little earlier today that I'd like to get some people's thoughts on. W called me and we had some idle chit chat and she asked how volleyball went last night. I said it was great, we won both matches and it felt really good to be playing again. I told her that I saw some people I hadn't talked to in years and it was cool to catch up. She instantly starts quizzing on who. I said well there was this one girl Amy that I used to play ball with about 7 or 8 years ago. W was like...is she single. I said ummm...no, she's married with two kids. W was like...oh, who else? So I said this other couple that we both know and who knows my ex-girlfriend from before W and W was like...great, now ex is going to know what's going on and be trying to contact you. I was like....huh????
So, what the heck is that all about? It's like the jealousy streak comes out instantaneously and really for no logical reason. I haven't talked to ex for about 5 years....
I just ignored it and moved on to something else. I wanted to say...ummm, you're the one with a boyfriend so why would it matter if ex wanted to talk to me. But that would be wrong in so many ways so I just bit my tongue and let W keep talking.
Seriously, sometimes the stuff WAW does really confounds me.
It IS pretty confounding, but that which you describe is also SCRIPT.
Women want what they can't have (men do too!). SHE may not want it at the moment, but she damned sure doesn't want anyone ELSE to have it tho, either.
Couple that basic natural instinct with the fact that a man is much more attractive when he's GALing and displaying a confident air of "he-who-cares-the-least," and you've got a pretty potent aphrodesiac.
Puppy
I am currently seeing some positive traction with my WAW. A whole week of positive interactions. Not sure what changed suddenly -- perhaps me in some way, perhaps something with the EA with OM.
Question 1: I am invited to my S's school function. When it comes to posturing, do I attend and then excuse myself a bit early (since I did/do have plans afterward)?
Question 2: My wife has not spoken about any of our issues until this week - been 'numb' and quiet the last 2 months since the bomb. I finally got my first chance to affirm an observation my wife made about her behavior and my behavior leading up to the bomb. Unfortunately, I said something more like "Yeah, I know I was doing X (not talking much)." It was more matter-of-fact, given that "I've been learning, reading and counseling", instead of affirming her observation. Was that a blown opportunity to affirm and be constructive, or is my 'yeah I know' attitude close enough?
In any case, PDT's reminder will be added to my 'when the time comes' notes:
Be prepared for her to start promising you the moon and the stars. Much of what she says will be lies, or -- at best -- spinning the truth. Remember: only when her ACTIONS aligns with her WORDS -- over time -- will you know she is speaking the truth.
Mr NG,
I'm pretty new to this but I think I would have validated what she said the issues were and then if she commented on changes I would have been somewhat vague and just said that you've been working on yourself to be the best person you can be for everyone around you. Not make it about her specifically since that would lead to her thinking the changes were to win her back and not be permanent. She needs to see and know that what you are doing is for you and that it is a permanent thing to make a better you.
I usually am careful about the words I use to show that what I'm doing is for me and about me. This was just the first time she opened up and made any comment about things that 'got us here'.
Sometimes I feel like there are so many things I'm working on or keeping notes for future use that it's hard to keep track of it all. Am I still going towards my goals? Have my goals changed as my perspective changes? Am I effective in my changes/progress, or am I just staying busy and developing an alternate set of lifestyle habits that both do and do not fit with a future R (with W or not)?
Feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment about my 'plan of action'.
:-/
Tell me about it. There are days I don't know which way to go with my sitch. Now though I am moving forward. I have reached a place where I have to be true to myself and D3. So I have put the ball in W's court...decision is hers. Meanwhile I will be setting up an appointment with a mediator to start working on the paperwork and figuring out the finances, co-parenting, visitation stuff so if I have to go the route none of us wants to it will be as smooth as possible and I will know everything to expect. It's not what I want but what I need to be true to my feelings. So I can expect more good and bad days as I go through this but ultimately it is what needs to be done and I really hope that the W will really consider what she is doing before things get too far.
I've waffled back and forth on the 'true to myself' route. Sometimes the idea stuck, sometimes it didn't. Eventually, I reached the point of some acceptance, but never 100%.
In an emotional backslide of mine last month, I told WAW that "I" wanted a divorce, not just a separation. That jolted her for a few days ('this is moving too fast for me'), but the draw to OM pulled her back away again. My belief is that my W falls into the "wants the cake and eat it too" category (i.e. cordial with father of her son, plus addiction to OM).
My DB coach told me not to do that again, not to try to accelerate her present state of mind, and not to make any further such mistakes --- working on consistently reducing any/all negative emotions from my side to her - regardless of what comes back at me.
Something changed a week ago that either changed her suddenly to nice, or changed me enough to have a positive impact on her. While we have had a whole week of positive interactions and some laughter, I cannot trust this based on the flip-flopping I've read about on this board. Plus, I have no idea what the status of the OM is -- I'm assuming he's still got her attention.
I'm in the same boat with the W and OM. I flip flopped a couple of months ago with wanting her to break it off and then acting as if it was ok. And my W has definitely been in the cake eating phase. Now she knows though that that phase is coming to an end. I laid it out the other night that I can't be cool with the OM thing. When she dropped the bomb she said it was because she wanted to work on herself to work on her self image, become more responsible, and prove to herself she could do it. I told her Sunday night that I would support her in doing that but not in doing that with OM in the picture. When she asked what I planned to do I told her it was to schedule an appt with a mediator to work out the finances and custody of D3 plus any other obligations to have the paperwork ready in case it came to that. She immediately started waffling about stuff (previously it was HER that wanted to move this along to a mediator) but I didn't budge this time. I had an IC appt. today and as soon as I got out W called and after some idle chit chat asked if I had talked to him about what I had went over with her. I told her yes and that he said he thought it was good for me. We talked about some other stuff and she was truly taken aback by my stand. I do still want my R to work and I do still love my W but I can't sacrifice my well being and my morals and beliefs for it. In our whole relationship I placated her and would never stand up for my wants and needs in fear that she would leave. Typical nice guy stuff. Because of that I think she lost all respect for me and that is a major reason I am in the place I am now. So in essence my stand now is a 180 for me. Albeit a great risk to take with a 180 it is one I have to do for myself and for D3. No matter what I have to show D3 how to stand up for your wants and beliefs and that will be through my actions. Is this a good stand for anyone's elses sitch...probably not but for mine it's what needs to be done and I will at least get my self respect back and hopefully the respect of my W.
The good thing too is that since I dropped that on her over the weekend I have felt extreme relief and so much better about myself. My IC said it was self integrity validation and I should feel good about putting my needs and wants out there and for being open and honest with her on it. He said just to be sure that I follow my feelings and I communicate with W in clear and concise ways.
The W has some thinking to do now and I believe she will have some stuff to work out with her IC now at the least.
I agree with your IC. Good for you, DC. You can't control HER, but you CAN control what your own boundaries of personal integrity are, and you will feel SO much better in the process.
btw, the next time she asks you "what are you going to do?", know that you don't have to tell her. In fact, DON'T. Just say "Not sure yet... right now, I'm working on me, and it feels kinda good."
And smile.
Puppy
I hear you Puppy. I don't feel I need to tell her anymore. I've been pretty clear about what I'm going to do. I told her I was going to schedule time for us to go to the mediator and get everything taken care of. Told her that didn't mean I was going to or not going to file for D right away \, I was going to evaluate how I felt at that time and do what I felt was right for D3 and me. Right now I have no idea what I am going to do at that moment. A lot will depend on where W and I are at at that point in time and how I feel about it. And you are right...it does feel good to work on me and do things based on MY feelings and needs and not hers.
Expect her to GRILL you in the next couple of days. Count on it.
Oh I'm sure. I mean, I wasn't out of the counseling more than 10 minutes before she called today. I think she expected me to back off after the appointment. Oh well...didn't happen. One little exchange was interesting though. I ended up asking her what she wanted and needed. She said she couldn't concentrate on her needs right now...that she needed to make sure the ones she cared about, D3 and I, were happy. I responded with..."you think we're happy with the current situation?" I told her she couldn't control my nor D3's happiness. She could influence it to an extent. That if she wanted to work on our R instead of heading down the fast lane to single life it had the potential to make me happier. I also said that D3, while being a happy child in general and happy when she's around either one of us is happiest when we are together. W had no response for that. At least I think it made her think about what she had said and what reality was. Maybe not but you know, you have to hope that it does sometimes.
Those are great examples of what I like to call "truth darts."
Well done. Just don't try and deliver more than about 2-3 of them a week. Well-timed and well-landed. More than that, and you're "teaching" them, and you can't teach the wayward mind.
Puppy
Good point Puppy and I'll have to keep that in mind. Yeah, I don't want to teach her...I was just dumbfounded by that response and just honestly had to make that reply. I mean seriously...what the heck was she thinking with that one? But yeah, I do like the truth darts.
Anyway, she is working tonight so she won't be coming home but I have a sneaking suspicion I'll get a late night call again. If I do I don't know if I'm going to answer it or not...still undecided on that one.
Just some thoughts here. I feel really lucky and blessed to have the IC I have. He started out as our couples counselor and that is primarily what he does and he wants couples to stay together but he doesn't want it to happen at the expense of the individuals involved. He is the one who introduced me to DR and to this site and they have saved me from myself. Something he said early on in this I now truly get and believe. He said that going through this process while you may want to save your marriage you need to ensure you save yourself. Sometimes they coincide and you can do both but sometimes you have to choose and you should always choose to save yourself. Why save a marriage only to be miserable or lose yourself in it? These words are so true and is what I am living by now. I can save myself. I can be the best man I can be for D3 and me. Maybe the marriage can be saved and maybe not but I truly can be and I will be.
I hope anyone who reads this takes that to heart because I do believe it's the way we should approach this.
Other than this board, the books, and the DB coach, I hadn't been speaking with a family/IC counselor. I finally printed out the local list of family counselors and even tried to get a name out of the DB folks for a DB-centric counselor (no luck).
Given your IC experience, DC, I'm going to call on Thursday to start interviewing local family counselors to start my IC. If W ever comes around, good for her, but me first.
Thanks.
Just some thoughts here. I feel really lucky and blessed to have the IC I have. He started out as our couples counselor and that is primarily what he does and he wants couples to stay together but he doesn't want it to happen at the expense of the individuals involved. He is the one who introduced me to DR and to this site and they have saved me from myself. Something he said early on in this I now truly get and believe. He said that going through this process while you may want to save your marriage you need to ensure you save yourself. Sometimes they coincide and you can do both but sometimes you have to choose and you should always choose to save yourself. Why save a marriage only to be miserable or lose yourself in it? These words are so true and is what I am living by now. I can save myself. I can be the best man I can be for D3 and me. Maybe the marriage can be saved and maybe not but I truly can be and I will be.
I hope anyone who reads this takes that to heart because I do believe it's the way we should approach this.
I couldn't agree more, DC. Well said.
Puppy
So I was right...W called around midnight last night. I didn't pick up. I'm sure it was to talk about what I had told her and didn't feel the need to rehash it when I was tired and wanted to sleep. I'm sure Puppy is right and she's going to start pressing me on it...testing me to see if I break.
If she asks you what you're going to do, answer as I suggested above. If she presses you, and asks you why you won't tell her more, just say "Because I don't want to right now."
There's nothing that can be said to "I don't want to ..."
What you want to convey is that YOU are beginning to formulate some decisions, apart from her, and that you feel no need to convey right now what those are.
Be nice; cordial.
Puppy
Another gem from Puppy. (How's the book coming?) :-D
That shouldn't be hard to do Puppy because that's honestly how I feel. I still have things to figure out and don't know what will happen once the paperwork is done, which I have told her this more than once. And honestly, I don't want to talk about it more. She knows my feelings...knows my boundaries...why should I have to continually restate them you know. And I am nice and cordial whenever I talk to her or are around her. If I feel like I'm getting emotional or pissed when I'm with her or talking to her then I just excuse myself from the conversation and go do something else for awhile. No use talking when I'm in that state as nothing productive is going to come out of it.
I'm curious - which boundaries did you set?
Most of the boundaries I have set are around how she interacts with me and about the OM. When we talk if she gets mean or defensive towards me I will just end the conversation and leave until she is willing to talk to me in a civil manner. And with the OM, I don't want to hear about him at all. If she is here and feels the need to text or talk to him then she needs to leave to do it or at a minimum go outside. That I am moving forward to us seeing a mediator to start figuring out the financials, custody of D3, and such unless she breaks it off with OM and starts showing wanting to work on the R. That's pretty much it so far. For the most part she is respecting them except for breaking things off with OM.
So I think the little world W is living in is starting to crumble a little bit. She called me last night all upset that she had a rough day. She lost her cell phone and instead of talking to me about that and seeing what her options were she rushed out and bought a new one and since she wasn't on the current bill she had to get a new number under her own name and plan. Sucks some for me because I have to cancel her number under the plan we were on and probably pay the fee for early termination but I think that will be less than keeping the number on the plan deactivated. I'll have to figure that out. Either way, she is now responsible and paying for her own phone. Cool how that works out. She had a doctor's appt. yesterday that I guess didn't go well and then she had an IC appt. that she didn't like either. Up until I guess yesterday her IC had said nothing about saving the marriage. She just worked with W on figuring herself out and counseling her on seeing a mediator, what to expect in a divorce, etc... I was always a little put off by that as it seemed the counselor was helping her to get a divorce but I guess yesterday the counselor told her to try to save the marriage and was focused on that. W said she doesn't know what changed, if maybe the IC picked up on something and changed her tune. I have no idea since I've never even met her counselor. W also said she talked to IC about how I've been improving myself and growing while she is still stuck in the same place and it's not getting better. I just listened and validated it all. Hopefully W will see that maybe if she does what the IC says then she can grow and get better. Even if it's not in our R. It's like if anyone says anything to her that doesn't validate her position she shuts it out. For me, I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing and keep following the plan to see the mediator and go from there. Unless W changes with her actions then my plan goes on as it always has. W made a comment about losing the phone (which was a really nice phone) that it was like what she is doing with our relationship. She has something good and doesn't take care of it. Ummm...didn't say a word back about that. Maybe she feels that way or maybe that was just a comment made impulsively because her day sucked...who knows. Like Puppy says...words are words it's the actions that count.
Like Puppy says...words are words it's the actions that count.
Yep. And I also says, "Waywards should pay for their own cellphones anyways, if they're going to use them to call/TM their boyfriends/girlfriends."
True Puppy, very true. Funny how that all worked out isn't it. ;-)
Yep - that's why my W bought herself a cell phone right after the bomb... "for emergency purposes". YEAH, RIGHT!
Yup. Mine even took her blackberry with her to Germany even though she couldn't use it there and ended up getting a new cell phone there. I asked her to send me the blackberry back and she said she would, once she [figured out how to transfer the messages to her new phone.]*
*-Translated from the WAW-speak: "figured out how to clear the messages so I can't read them"
Well, weekend is almost over and W has really screwed with my head some this weekend. Saturday morning W came home from wherever she stayed the night before and was really nice around me. Gave me hugs...stayed close to me throughout the house...played with D3 and me. Talked some and she said that after she left her IC on thursday she thought to herself that yes, we could get the passion back in our marriage and make things work if we tried. I just took it in and didn't dwell on it or act all excited about it. Things were good and then she went to work at 1pm. Didn't talk to her for the rest of the day. Fast forward to today and she comes home this morning from wherever she stayed again last night and she is noticeably colder toward me. She talked to me some but it was more hollow and just idle chit chat. We played some with D3 outside since it was sunny and in the 70s and then she left to go to work again. Haven't talked to her since. I swear sometimes it feels like she throws a little bone out there to keep this little doggy from running away then goes back to the old ways. It really gets to me sometimes but I keep a happy face while she is around. Man I would love just some sort of sign on what to do. I keep having the "should I stay or should I go now" song going through my head thinking about my sitch. Uhhh....
Anyway, gonna try to not think about it and enjoy the rest of the night with D. Then tomorrow, calling in sick and playing golf with a friend of mine. That should be pretty fun and take my mind off of things. Hope everyone is having a good Sunday!
And to confuse me even more W just called on her break at work to tell me about her night at work and ask me how I was doing. WTH???
I noticed that W was warm to me on days where things were going well for her, and cold on days where her life wasn't going as she planned/hoped, or was tired (WAW's don't get solid sleep either), or X, or Y.
The mood swings seem to be much greater in the WAW situation.
A response to the "make it work if we tried" comment is that I may have tried to use (although unlikely to have remembered in the moment): "Well, we'll cross that bridge when we're both ready for it."
However, having seen much more positive interactions with my W lately (not sure why), it does cross my mind (often) of what I would say in response to anything positively suggestive to a reconciliation or even a step in the right direction initiated by her. I want to think that I would simply respond with "I'm still working on me and am not ready just yet." But at the same time, while I believe I am not ready yet, I don't know what the opening will be (if at all), so spinning my wheels on every possible scenario is a waste of time.
Furthermore, my fear is that if I play it too cool or passive, then maybe she'll think 'Fine, maybe I don't need to wait around for you to be ready'. While that is a fear, hearing your situation tells me that if the W is that fickle to be so easily pushed off by a cold shoulder on the first attempt, then she is not ready, and neither of us want the heartache/headache of playing games until both W and H are ready to start again.
A lot of gray area here, which is why I still want Puppy Dogs play book (e.g. "WAW for Dummies") to be published.
so W tells me today she broke things off with OM and is very visibly upset by everything. She said she did it because it was disrespectful to me seeing as how we are still figuring out us and that OM was pissed. I don't care if if was pissed but it does hurt to see W so upset. I don't know what to do or say to her but i did thank her. I also don't know if she will keep it up or not because she is so upset. I guess time will tell. She also said that it doesn't change our sitch at all which i told her i knew. So how do i take this and what do i do from here?
I think you ask her if she wants to work on your marriage or not.
Does she?
so W tells me today she broke things off with OM and is very visibly upset by everything. She said she did it because it was disrespectful to me seeing as how we are still figuring out us and that OM was pissed. I don't care if if was pissed but it does hurt to see W so upset. I don't know what to do or say to her but i did thank her. I also don't know if she will keep it up or not because she is so upset. I guess time will tell. She also said that it doesn't change our sitch at all which i told her i knew. So how do i take this and what do i do from here?
Well Puppy. W is still visibly upset with her situation and is moving ahead full steam to getting her own place. I get that. Don't like it but I get it. She invited me out to lunch today but when I got there she just sat there looking miserable and not talking to me much at all. Weird. Like she wanted me to be there to see her all upset. Finally I asked her if when she moves to her own place she wanted to start working on us. She said it was not a good time to ask that question. So, I left it at that. She said nothing had changed and that she was moving out and going to see the mediator and I said that I understood that and that's where I was too. So....that's where we stand today. Not talking much at all and she is looking at two apartments this afternoon. I'm confused some, a little hurt, but not as much as I thought I would be....
I don't believe her. I think he dumped HER.
Puppy
Had my IC session today and it went ok. We talked about W's breakup with OM and my IC is suspicious of it. He said he either doesn't totally buy it or the reason she gave for it or that he doesn't truly believe it. He brought something to mind that I hadn't thought about and that was that W lost her phone last Thurs. and gets her own phone on her own account and then breaks up with OM. So now if she keeps things up with OM there is no phone record I could see to verify it. W seems genuinely upset right now and seems to be hurting but is it all an act. My gut is telling me it's not but my gut is also telling me that I don't know the whole story. Well, guess we shall see how that turns out. Even if the breakup is for real she is still not trying to work on our R so my plans stay the same as before. Go to the mediator and then see where I'm at after that. The counselor and I also talked about my feelings about the R in general now. I'm starting to question whether I want W back or not. I'm wondering what if we work through this and get back together...is she going to cut bait and run again the next time things get hard? Or will she learn and grow from this and be more able to work on things and fight for us if things get hard again. I don't think I could go through this every few years or so with her bailing and then coming back. Is that the woman I want to be married to? One that isn't willing to fight for the marriage. Is this a natural thing to think about in this situation and with detaching? So much to think through and work on for myself.
IC also said if she does decide to work on things we should definitely go to counseling together. I told him that was the understatement of the year. That if she comes back I have the feeling I'm gonna put his kids through college.
So that was the IC session for today. W is out tonight and I'm hanging out with D3. W called a little while ago and asked how I was doing. I told her I was doing ok and asked how she was. She got pissy with me and asked my why I would ask that. That she was hurt and getting angry. I asked if the anger was toward me and she didn't say anything. Then she talked to D3 for a little bit and went on her way. Have the feeling this is going to be going on for quite awhile now. Guess I'm going to have to go dim until W mellows out some so we don't blow up at each other. It was really hard to shoot back something along the lines of you're hurt and angry...how do you think I've been feeling for the past 4 months? But...bit my tongue and just took it and validated....
So hard sometimes not to just let it all out. But I do feel for her and I do hate to see her hurting. With everything going on and everything that came out in the counseling session today...I do still love her.
You could be right there Puppy. Or it could have been a mutual thing. She had said he was pressuring her to move in with him and she wasn't ready for that and D3 damn sure wasn't ready. I know how W reacts to pressure (hence...my sitch to some degree) and that would not go over so well. I wonder if they had a blow-out over it and broke up with each other. I just know she seems pissed at the world right now so no matter what it seems she is feeling the effects of not getting her "fix".
...and as you noted, W is not interested in working on the R. I've read numerous times on here that just because the OM is split doesn't mean the W runs back to LBS.
The common scenario seems to be ongoing confusion, now infused with frustration and fear.
Good luck to each of us.
I've read numerous times on here that just because the OM is split doesn't mean the W runs back to LBS.
This has been my experience as well.
Yeah, I figure if she decides she does want to work on the R it will be awhile from now...after she moves out. And honestly I don't think the thing with OM is completely done and until then she won't want to nor will I honestly. So for now...still moving forward with everything and will take each day as it comes. Good thing is that I don't feel as bad these days about it or about things if they don't work out. I still don't want things to end but I know that I'll be ok if they do. That I'll still have an awesome relationship with D3. And that when the time comes I'll be a lot better off to start a new relationship and be a better man in it than I have been. As much as all this sucks it's good in away because it was a wake up call for me to work on myself and become the best man I can so no matter what I have to be thankful for it.
If a WAS appears to be 'on the fence' and confused about where to take their life next, I wonder if 'showing tail lights' would do any good? That is, showing that I'm/we're moving beyond W with new friends, new travel, 1-on-1 'friend' outings, et cetera. I'm already GAL'ing, but haven't really talked about it much with W.
I guess in answering my own question, 'would do any good' for whom? (me, I suppose)
Good question. I know it would be good for the LBS...it would be part of GAL'ing and that's always a good thing. For the WAS, I guess it could go one of two ways. One, it could force some realisation of what they are doing and what they are losing and make them want to really try to work on the R. Or, they could see it as you moving on with your life without them and that you don't want them in it anymore so they move farther away from you. I guess there could be a third choice and it would just piss them off. Really is a complex question and I'm sure every situation would have a different response.
So today has been another somewhat stressful and distant day with W. She was out last night (again...never know where she is staying) and called on her way to work this morning. The call woke me up and when she asked how I was doing I just replied that I was sleepy. She asked about D3 and I told her she was fine just missing her mommy some the night before. I then told her that when I picked D3 up from school yesterday they told me they are having a spring singing event Friday afternoon at 5pm. W blew up on me about not telling her sooner and all. I replied with I just found out yesterday afternoon and I didn't see or talk to you last night and this was the first chance I had. Guess I could have sent her a text with it the night before but honestly it doesn't matter since she has to work Friday while it is going on. She sent me a text later apologizing and saying she was upset because she was going to miss it. I told her I knew it was hard because she wanted to be there and that I would record it for her and asked her what she wanted me to use to record it. She then said that her mom had sent her an email and that she wasn't sure how to take it. I asked what it was about and got no response. I'm curious as to what it was because I don't know how her parents are taking all this. I know they like me but I don't know if they would be pressuring her to try to work things out or pressuring her to go see a lawyer. I guess I shouldn't dwell on it because I have no way to find out until W decides I should know. W is working tonight so I'm sure she will stay out so I probably won't physically see her until Saturday at the earliest. It sucks because I do miss her. I know she went to look at apartments yesterday and don't know how that went so she could possibly be moving out at the end of the month. That is really going to suck for awhile as I'll be in the house alone. I'm sure that will weigh on me for awhile but I have to face up to it. I think I'm going to do some painting and rearrange everything after she moves out to take up some of the alone time and to make the place more mine. Has anyone else ever done this? I think it will make me feel better but it may make me think more about her being gone.
Yes, do the painting and rearranging. Make changes that YOU want to do for yourself. I think it will have the same effect as buying yourself new clothes -- it'll give you small accomplishments.
I think I'm going to do some painting and rearrange everything after she moves out to take up some of the alone time and to make the place more mine. Has anyone else ever done this? I think it will make me feel better but it may make me think more about her being gone.
I haven't done it, but EVERYONE says it's a good idea, and EVERYONE I've ever seen who DID do it, reported how much of a difference it made for their own self-esteem. FWAWs even have reported on these boards that it made a huge difference for them when they saw that their LBS had made changes to their home!!!
Do it.
Puppy
Well, once she moves out I think I am going to do some painting, remodeling, and making the place more mine. I think it will be good for me and plus the W and I had planned on moving more outside the city in a couple of years and I still plan to do that so this will help get the place ready to sell.
Today was an ok day. Work is still pretty stressful but I think I have a handle on that and tomorrow should be fairly normal just in time to roll into the weekend. Text msg'd with W a little this morning about nothing really in particular. She had her IC today and called me after and said it was productive. She didn't tell me anything about what productive meant and I wasn't about to ask. She has D3 tonight so I'll be hanging out at a friends house for the night. W had mentioned something over the weekend about going to counseling together once or twice a month so we could work on communicating better with each other and stressed the communicating...not working on our R. I said it sounded good and on Tuesday when I went to my IC I schedule an appt. for next week at a time she could make it with her work schedule. I told her about it that day and said I made it at that time in case she still wanted to go. If not it was fine because that time worked out well for me. She said she didn't know if she wanted to or not. After her IC session today she said she did want to go if I still wanted her to. Don't know what changed her mind. Also don't have a clue if this could be good or bad...really never know with her but it'll definitely be interesting.
Last couple of days have been pretty hard. Work has been super stressful this week and because of that I have missed W a lot. I miss being able to talk to her about work and stress and honestly just being with her so for the time I'm with her everything was ok. Feeling little better today now that I'm rolling into the weekend and I can relax a little and enjoy myself. Haven't really seen or talked to W since Tuesday and I do find myself wondering how she is. I know she was pretty upset last time I saw her and I do still feel for her and don't want her hurting. I will see her some tomorrow as she will come hang out with D3 before work and I'll be here too. Time to get my "as if" and PMA game face on. Actually, my mental attitude has been pretty good lately except for the stressful couple of days at work. I still feel like I'm on the roller coaster but the hills seem much smaller now. I got an email from her sister's husband today asking how things were going and that the whole family really feels for us and are pulling for us to work this out. That was pretty nice as it's the first i've heard from any of her family since this started. BIL and I though have always gotten along well and are pretty similar so I'm sure no matter what the friendship we have will stay intact.
So, PMA...as if...and figure out some fun stuff for D3 and I to do this weekend. Hope everyone has a great weekend!
I feel for you DC.
After hearing my W say she is scared about dating again and divorcing, she doesn't have enough respect for me anymore to consider me a viable option in her life any further.
I cried last night - the first time in almost a month.
We hold out hope and work hard on 180s, PMA, (not sure what the "as if" is so I'm probably not doing that), GALing, et cetera, but the setbacks are brutal -- especially because they always seem definitive.
Let me off!
I feel for you NG and know exactly what you are saying. I feel like W lost all respect for me in our M and that is a pretty big reason for where we are today. I was the typical "Nice Guy"...translation - doormat with her because of the fear of losing her...ironically it's probably why I did lose her. My IC has been working with me on this and reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and N.U.T.S has been a real eye opener. I've been trying to apply that and set boundaries that shouldn't be crossed as well as being open and honest about my feelings and owning them even if W doesn't agree with them or gets upset because of them. They are mine and that's what matters. I am starting to think that W is starting to respect me some again because of this and even if we keep heading down the road to splitsville I will be a much better man because of it.
That is my big 180 and it feels good to be doing it. As for the "as if"...it's the "act as if" from DR/DB. Where you act as if the outcome from an action is going to be what you want when you do the action. An example would be asking W to keep the kids so you can go out for a GAL event. You can approach her with the attitude that she is going to get upset and throw it in your face or that she is going to be cool with it. If you have the positive outcome attitude then you will seem more cool and confident in the action and more likely to get the outcome you want. It's funny because I didn't really believe it would work but I have to say that in a lot of cases it does.
Right now my W doesn't want to work on us or think about a R with me and still says she needs to focus on herself. You know, in a way I get that because if she isn't happy with herself then she won't be happy with me or anyone else. I may not agree with how she is handling it but I do respect what she is trying to do. The way she talks right now it does seem definitive that she is going to go her own way and cut me out of her life. It hurts. It sucks. But, I can dwell on that and believe that will be the outcome and by doing that I'll be unhappy and that outcome will most definitely come true or I can act as if we will get back together and by doing so and believing it I can be empathetic towards her and a friend while she is doing this and hopefully show her someone she wants to come back to. In the meantime I can also work on myself to be a man nobody would want to leave. That's my plan and god willing I'm going to stick to it no matter how much it may hurt sometimes.
I haven't heard of N.U.T.S. before. How is it compared to NMMNG?
As far as the "as if", I should definitely practice that more/better. Our parallels are close enough that I'll be curious to see how it works out for either of us.
I'm also struggling trying to figure out what boundaries I should set since she doesn't really treat me badly to my face but she tells others she thinks of me as a wounded dog. I get caught up in hearing such comments and react poorly (fail to maintain PMA or As If) the next time I'm around her. On one hand, I should reject hearing about her opinions to friends to maintain my PMA (and delusion, perhaps), and on the other hand it helps me to understand her primary concerns with me -- which she is lousy about communicating to me directly, as if it is old information being rehashed.
open and honest about my feelings and owning them even if W doesn't agree with them or gets upset because of them
Can you share an example?
.
NG,
Well, I guess and example of that was me confronting her about my feelings of OM. Before I had been doing the classic DR move of not talking about and acting as if it didn't bother me. No more. After reading NMMNG and NUTS I decided that I can put my feelings out there and she can take it as she wants. So I told her that OM was very disrespectful to me and to our family. Told her that every day she is with him is like a slap in the face to me. She didn't like hearing that and complained about it and I just validated her complaints and told her...those are my feelings. I'm not telling you what to do but how I feel.
Fast forward a week and she tells me she broke things off with OM. Now, I'm not an idiot so I know that she could be just saying that and I know that she is still in contact with him but she swears they are no longer a couple.
So now if she asks me how I am I just tell her. No more dancing around it. Sometimes she'll ask (and she asks pretty much every day now how my day was and how I'm feeling). Some days I'm pretty chipper and I tell her that I'm good and having a good day. The other day she asked and I told her I was stressed about work and that my day wasn't going too well. She asked why and I told her that I was having issues trusting things she was telling me. I didn't ask her to verify anything or put anything on her...just owned my feelings. She did tell me she understood that based on what she had done.
So that's how I do that. N.U.T.S is a book called Hold on to your N.U.T.S. It's similar to NMMNG and is a pretty good read.
Whether any of this will change my sitch with W is unknown but I feel a lot better by owning up to my feelings and putting them out there instead of suppressing them and putting on a happy face all the time. Plus putting them out there is a serious 180 for me as during the marriage I would suppress my wants and feelings as to not upset W.
Got it. I have lunch with my W on Sunday. We'll see how I do applying my NMMNG and ownership of my feelings. I've also ordered NUTS... thanks.
WOW - so I grew some balls today.
Went to lunch with W and she started by casually stating that she just wanted to see where 'we' were at.
I stated that I've learned a lot about what kind of man I want to become, realize that is neither the man I was before the marriage or during, and that I've made huge strides in moving toward that goal. She admitted she was still confused and uncertain and recognized that I was probably farther ahead of her in the growth process.
We talked about her upcoming vacation with her GF to Greece. I told her my travel dates were a week after she returned. She assumed I was making a family trip, but said no, I'm taking a solo vacation. She asked where to, and I said that I didn't need to explain myself just that I was taking a trip on my own. This irritated her in that I was being secretive while she was being open and honest, to which I chuckled in a mocking tone (given her repeated lies and backstabbing that she really doesn't think I've heard about through the grapevine). She honestly thinks that she is successfully 'playing her cards close' and being perfectly civil with me. Anyway, I finally disclosed I was going to Dublin for six days on my own (180), without a tour group, and that although it was outside of my comfort zone I looked forward to it. She seemed genuinely surprised that I would travel alone.
As the conversation progressed, a few backslides irritated her, such as me stating that it would be easier to simply cut our losses and start over with someone new although it would not be the right thing to do nor would it resolve our own personal issues; and that during the last several years combined with the time since the bomb that we have both lost respect for each other. She seemed very surprised that I would have any reason to have lost respect for her. She tried to push me for details about what I thought she did wrong and I wouldn't offer any - saying that I wasn't here to pick apart the problems of our marriage, especially in the middle of a restaurant, and that I am focusing on my goals and my improvements as I identify mistakes that I made over the last few years. I repeated that filing would be the easy way out, but not the one I choose because I'm willing to work very hard if I know there is something to gain by it.... worst case, I'll be happy with me. She quickly jumped to 'Should we just file then?'. I said 'No, but it would be the easy way out. I'm saying I need to work on me first, and you need to work on your first.'.
I also told her that as long as she was in another relationship, that I thought it a waste of my time to discuss our R when she wasn't serious about working at it nor would she respect what I had to say. She appeared to very carefully hold back her thoughts to this statement and bite her tongue. I did try to acknowledge her points of view and validate when I could during the whole conversation, but also used your line of 'I'm not telling you what to do - just how I feel.'
We talked about counselors and how she wasn't convinced any would help, rather attempt to push her into accepting or doing something she didn't want to do -- such as go back to a miserable marriage. I suggested that interviewing counselors is necessary to find the one that supports your own goals, not theirs, and to quickly discard a counselor that was taking you in a direction you didn't want to go. W seemed to understand that concept, but I doubt she'll do anything about it and continue to not put in any real effort at self-discovery.
At some point, I apparently came off as condescending and controlling, likely after I stated that she needed to figure out things for herself and get the help she needed before we could work on 'us'. She proceeded to point out a couple examples of me putting her down during the marriage and generally stated that I was controlling - escalating into her telling me "F*** You!" in the middle of this busy restaurant. I paused, then smiled - to which she laughed, and I responded with 'Feels good doesn't it?'. "Yes, it does." "That's what I'm talking about." Unfortunately, she didn't get what I was talking about because I was 'beating around the bush' so much she lost what I was trying to get across to her. Despite trying different angles but still not provided her any constructive criticism, I don't think I ever got my message across clearly, which should have been "I'm not going to work as hard as I have in understanding and improving myself only to just hand it over to you without any introspective effort on your (W) part." (hindsight)
She did state clearly that she was happier now and that she didn't foresee going back to a broken foundation of a marriage, nor putting glue on the large cracks.
I parted with "I don't want you to file tomorrow and I don't plan to file tomorrow, as I am willing to work very hard for establishing a new foundation, since the old foundation is broken and I will not return to that, but only if we are both willing to put in the work necessary to improve each of us as individuals first." She was quiet for a minute, and I stood up to leave and simply said "Give it some thought."
Pros: I showed a firm stance and didn't back down much (180). I alerted her to the fact that I lost respect for her also -- not just her losing respect for me. I planted the seed about properly interviewing counselors. Let her know that I was going to take a European trip by myself (180).
Cons: I got a little flustered by her anger about me being evasive in providing constructive criticism or specific examples so that 'she had something to work on'. Perhaps the condescending and controlling portion of the conversation obscured the messages I got across early on. I need to find a balance between the NMMNG and the controlling behavior / comments. I didn't get my point across successfully that she needs to start working on figuring herself out before we can work on what went wrong in the marriage.
.
I e-mailed her early this morning with:
"I was trying to get across that I felt we needed to work on ourselves further before attempting to figure out the problems with the marriage. I do understand that there are some close ties between the two, and believe we'll be able to take in each others' criticisms when we have a better perspective of what is most important to each of us. I don't want to distract our current personal efforts with emotionally charged discussion that will turn negative if we are not able to handle it on our own. I failed to get that message across and came off as evasive and controlling. My sincere apologies to you for not being clear."
Not sure if that helped, was unnecessary, or a backslide.
NG,
Good job! How do you feel? I know for me even though it was hard and such a change from my normal behavior I felt so much better and empowered after owning up to my feelings and putting them out there. Sounds like you had a good night. Keep it up!
Pros: I showed a firm stance and didn't back down much (180). I alerted her to the fact that I lost respect for her also -- not just her losing respect for me. I planted the seed about properly interviewing counselors. Let her know that I was going to take a European trip by myself (180).
Cons: I got a little flustered by her anger about me being evasive in providing constructive criticism or specific examples so that 'she had something to work on'. Perhaps the condescending and controlling portion of the conversation obscured the messages I got across early on. I need to find a balance between the NMMNG and the controlling behavior / comments. I didn't get my point across successfully that she needs to start working on figuring herself out before we can work on what went wrong in the marriage.
.
Personally, I think the whole thing was just PHENOMENAL, Mr NG. I mean "worthy-of-bookmarking" kinda stuff.
This, alone, really hit home for me:
Despite trying different angles but still not provided her any constructive criticism, I don't think I ever got my message across clearly, which should have been "I'm not going to work as hard as I have in understanding and improving myself only to just hand it over to you without any introspective effort on your (W) part."
Bingo. Bingo, bingo,
BINGO.
thanks,
Puppy
I e-mailed her early this morning with:
"I was trying to get across that I felt we needed to work on ourselves further before attempting to figure out the problems with the marriage. I do understand that there are some close ties between the two, and believe we'll be able to take in each others' criticisms when we have a better perspective of what is most important to each of us. I don't want to distract our current personal efforts with emotionally charged discussion that will turn negative if we are not able to handle it on our own. I failed to get that message across and came off as evasive and controlling. My sincere apologies to you for not being clear."
Not sure if that helped, was unnecessary, or a backslide.
Probably somewhere between "unnecessary" and "a backslide." Might've been better if you had ended it with "Or, you can just say F$%k you," and a winkey face.
We talked about her upcoming vacation with her GF to Greece.
I am IN Greece if you need anything.
(DBers United...)
(sorry I couldnt help it)
K
Yay me! Coming from the people I respect on this board, I REALLY appreciate the accolades and feedback.
THANK YOU!
So here's the result of that lunch:
W e-mailed me to tell that I did come across as controlling, that she couldn't go to work today due to panic attacks, and is putting the house on the market and filing for separation.
We'll see how it plays out. Surprisingly, I'm not sad about it, only that she gives up so easily (give or take a few years, that is) after I stand up for myself.
She's testing you.
Stay the course.
Puppy
I haven't even responded to the e-mail. I was thinking of simply "I'm sorry you feel that way." with nothing else, or perhaps remaining dark until something does happen.
She has great determination when she wants to - and will likely file, as she stated, to reassert her own control. I see it as another example of her being blind to her own controlling behavior and pointing the finger at my controlling behavior.
Either way, she clearly is reacting very poorly to a person she doesn't have respect for as a husband showing some backbone (or as she called it, "control").
Sorry I don't know all your history and only read the past 4 or 5 pages... so if thissounds like a 2 x 4, it may be one BUT I am not sure. I'm only going by these past few posts...but did you honestly feel you were really DBing in this talk with her? Your confidence went UP after this? Why? Sounds more like you made her mad and that...somehow seems to have pleased you? Or you're claiming that she "would've been angry even if I hadn't been that way"??..am I missing something?
I thought your conversation sounded very conditional. Now, perhaps it's all b/c she has been blaming you 100% for the M's problems. If so, I get that. But you'd STILL have to START THE BALL ROLLING which it says in the table of contents of DB books...you almost quoted the "before I read DB" section which was "Why should I be the one to change first?" And the book addresses exactly why we DO have to be the ones to change FIRST AND then, here you are telling her that she has to do blah blah blah for YOU to think that there's a chance.
Also you said nothing about passionately wanting to stay M..it was like you were flipping a coin and could go either way, divorce, stay married, hmmm, how do I feel at this moment??? What's with that? Like gee maybe it'd be more noble to do this CHORELIKE endeavor called marriage"...but for me as a woman, I was struck by it as being sterile and clinical and cold and UNATTRACTIVE...some sort of test or weird game, just my opinion though.
Also Sounded to me that for every "change" you'd make, you got out the measuring tape to make sure she'd be giving an amount that you'd feel was worth your time and effort. NO ONE has the same score card nor do we measure things the same way so there are parts of your M that you will not ever agree on historically. The best you can hope for is moving forward in sync. But for now, that tone is a big turn off for me, especially if you are someone who has been critical of her or unromantic in her eyes. Sounds sooo conditional. If I thought my h was primarily (not solely, but mostly) responsible for the demise of the m, and most WAS DO...then I'd be looking for 180's on his end before I'd take a real look at him. Sounds to me as if you've decided "to teach her a lesson" and that sounds more punitive to me than DBing...it's NOT your job to tell her what she needs to work on...that's just so NOT DBing...'
all you can do in the DB world is tell her what you need in a R...BUT NOT NOW--SHE WANTS OUT OF THE M....SO WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU TELLING HER ABOUT YOUR NEEDS?? SHOULDN'T THAT COME A WHOLE LOT LATER? I'm wondering if you just eliminated any chance of her seeing you as being very different, or more of the same, AND if it's pushing her into a L's arms...or court.
I mean, before the bomb, what were YOUR issues? What exactly do you "own" in your role in this? Is every problem you feel you yourself had, quickly explained by a counter fault of hers that really ends up justifying it? Like "I'd come home on time if she didn't nag so much", or "I may sound controlling but that's bc she can't take negative feedback or constructive critisizm"...??? That's not really owning it. It's just keeping score & justifying being a critical person...and I have never seen that work in a happy M or cause a reconciliation.
But as I said, i'm missing some chunks of your history. If this applies, take heed and if not, ignore it. So far, how's it working? Making her mad and filing may have happened anyway, BUT don't say it proves you were right...meaning, don't look for excuses to justify your pride talking you into a problem, only to pretend it didn't happen. Then you'll be in denial as well.
Hope I got it every single part wrong OR that something written & hashed out here helped you. Sorry if it hurt you, But that's how it hit me.
(( j ))
Thanks 25.
I'd say you have it about 50/50, but I am taking in your comments and will take close consideration of each point to see what and how I did before replying to the board.
.
My perception is that I'm the only one changing, or even putting an ounce of effort in to self-reflection.
My communication to W was that we still needed to figure out ourselves before we could work on resolving the M issues. Yes, I did it in a very confident way without caving in to her demands for details.
W has suggested a few times that it wasn't just me, but seems surprised that I would/could have anything to point out that she could have done wrong other than perhaps enabling my gradual sink into a low self-esteem. She expressed concern that when I went to an IC to address my workplace setbacks that hurt my confidence, that the IC should've fixed me --- but the IC was only to address the workplace situation, nothing to do with its impact on the family and M.
Throughout our M I am the one who changes based on her input. After years of her making choices, I let her, which I now know from NMMNG demonstrates lack of confidence and leadership simply for the purpose of playing nice because I was raised with 'a happy wife makes a happy life' without the understanding that it was about letting her have her way on everything, it's about balance... which honestly I didn't do during the last few years and it put to much pressure on W to be the family's cruise director and chef.
She pointed out that I am always critical of her hair and dress, and yet my memory (granted, it's my perception) tells me that I only made comment when she asked me for input and I can count my 'constructive criticism' on two hands in the last ten years. In fact, I frequently complimented her on her dress and her beauty.
She tells me 'This is not the life I wanted, I didn't want the white picket fence.', and blames me for creating an 8-to-5 lifestyle with a house. Yet, I supported her in full in going after her lifelong dream of going to law school and becoming a lawyer -- which has the requirement to remain rooted in the state that she passes the bar within. This tells me she at least participated in the choice of the 8-to-5 lifestyle that she is blaming me for now.
I don't find happiness in her getting mad, I was excited to see her finally expressing some emotion and standing up for herself, too.
I specifically stated that I'm not telling her what to do, just how I feel, and that I'm still working on improving me - which I felt was a prerequisite to identifying what went wrong with us. Yes, I did say that the easy way out is for us to simply go our separate ways, but that I wanted to work hard to learn and grow in hopes that it helps us.
I understand that I cannot 'see the forest for the trees' from my perspective, but I don't really see how I was controlling in the marriage and in this conversation.
My perception is that I stood up for myself, she didn't like that she could manipulate me or convince me she has acted appropriately, and is taking the easy way out by pointing the finger at me and making rash decisions to run away.
4x8 me.
MNG,
You should really start your own thread, as you've now totally hijacked dcsquared's.
Puppy
lol...hey, the more the merrier in my thread I always say. If NG is getting somewhere and using my thread I'm all for it. But now I will post my own stuff to it. So yesterday morning W comes home to get ready to head out to work and looks visibly upset. I asked her if she was ok and she said no. Her life is a wreck and she doesn't know what to do. I guess the night before a co-worker of hers that works in the restaurant with her and worked with her at the previous place that OM is the sous chef at asked her what the f@#& she was doing. W asked what he meant and he said that as far as he knew the two most important things in her life were her daughter and her career as a chef and that at this point she didn't have either of them and looked miserable all the time. He told her she needed to get her sh*t together and stop the crap. Granted, this is coming from a guy who does not like me one bit. That and I guess her parents and sister both put their 2 cents worth in last week for her to quit the crap and work on the marriage. W admitted that she wasn't happy right now and that she was losing her R with D3 some and not doing the job she really wanted to do but didn't know how to change that. I just listened and gave her a shoulder to cry on. Later on that afternoon she asked me what I thought about everything and I told her well, you have a big decision to make. She got a little defensive at first when i said that but then said that yes, she knows she has to decide some things and that she can't take forever to do it. She also said that it's pissing her off that everyone is telling her to work on the marriage...that she knows everyone wants her to but she has to know it for herself before that will happen. I agreed with her on that. She said part of her just wishes that everyone else would make decisions themselves and that way she wouldn't have to make any because everyone would have walked away by then. I just said something like that's not really what you want. She said...yeah, you're right.
It hurts to see W so unhappy but I know she has to go through this on her own and find her own way out of it whether that brings her back to work on us or not so I'm just being the best friend I can in the situation and I'm there when she wants to talk and not when she doesn't. Not going out of my way or anything but being there as I would for any of my friends.
Tonight W, D3, and I are going to the Portland Trailblazers playoff game. Should be a ton of fun and the first game that D3 has been too. I'm hoping for a good night and just to have fun with W and D3 like we used to do. That would make my day.
DC,
You handled that really, really well. One of the hardest things to do is to not jump in and rescue them, and yet many of us do, and still others come across as just a cold distant AZZ, which is not what you're looking for either.
"I love you, I hate to see you hurting, but I won't rescue you, this is your decision" is absolutely the way to play it.
Nicely done.
Puppy
My bad. I have my own thread, just no feedback. But I didn't intend to hijack.
good point on the hijack. APOLOGIES--my last post here--
FYI, I am into DBIng and if some other book for men about keeping your nuts helps you, then maybe they have their own site or you can put something out there or start a forum just for that or whatever...but THIS is for DBing and SOMETIMES they are not the same thing... as I understood some very good men explain it, now and then, they collide. Finding that balance sounds like a challenge for you. Your last post, does not make me feel differently I'm afraid. Sounds like more of the same...justifying yourself. Not changing "UNLESS" and I don't know how far you'll get with that but honestly, I don't get the feeling you are committed to fighting for your M. I really don't, and I'm sorry. I get the feeling you want to "be right"...not necessarily happy or married to her, but you'd "prefer" marriage to her, but only on your terms...and that ain't sounding so appealing to her or likely to me...just mho.
This is hard humbling stuff, to bravely & honestly look within and see our flaws, stare at them for what they are, WITHOUT JUSTIFYING THEM or blaming another or immediatley comparing, or saying "BUT HE ALSO blah blah blah" or "I HAD TO BE THAT WAY B/C...blah blah blah".....and buckling down, committing to changing and improving ourself with NO guarantees or promises of anything from anyone...but yet, many of us did it, and others have before me and will again. I'll be forever grateful for that b/c I am a better woman for it and no matter what, that's a good thing. IT's VERY scary and as I said, very humbling. Also became a very spiritual journey for me and eventually I knew I'd be a better partner for SOME man if I met another, but so far, looks like my h and I are making it (cross fingers!) My R with God is much better for sure.
Good luck,
(( j ))
[quote=25yearsmlc] I don't get the feeling you are committed to fighting for your M. [quote]
It's a hard thing to realize that to be committed and fight for your marriage, you pretty much have to let go of it and detatch from your spouse, leave them alone and give them time and space, and work on yourself and become better, and not think about them anymore, and know that there are no guarantees that what you're doing will be successful as far as the marriage itself goes!
25,
I suggested N.U.T.S to NG to go along with NMMNG as reading on how to own your feelings and set boundaries for yourself because a lot of us "nice guys" struggle so much with that that we lose the respect of our S as well as our own self-respect. Owning your feelings is different than defending them. When you own them you don't need to defend them...why would you, they are yours. The problem comes in when you try to defend them because then you are projecting them onto the other person and trying to make them come around to your way of thinking which is wrong. You have your feelings, they have theirs...if they are the same then great, if not you have to agree to disagree in which there is nothing wrong with that.
Puppy,
Thanks for the support. It's really hard to not try to offer a solution since my job is coming up with solutions for problems and I did it through our entire M but it gets easier the more I do it which makes me feel good as it hammers home that the changes I'm making for me are permanent and will help me no matter what the outcome.