On another thread Lotus wrote
I have talked to a lot of people in the throes of unhappy marriages, and I can't tell who will be able to reconcile and who won't. But I do know that in order to reconcile, you have to be able to forgive another person. Only you know what your limits are. But, that is my little tidbit of wisdom after 3 years.
Having been on here pretty much the same amount of time as Lotus I have also seen similar things, both on this board, other boards and IRL.
HOW one goes about trying to stop the infidelity when it occurs , it seems to me, depends on the circumstances. Why did it get to the point where the person who is unfaithful
is unfaithful.
In my M it was down to both my H and I - we both did things we shouldn't. That didn't make me turn to another person but it did make me turn away from my H; my H however decided to look for comfort elsewhere. I know for others there will have been different reasons and for some it will feel like they did nothing to make their S be unfaithful. Whatever the problems, I believe there is no reason for a S to be unfaithful.....however once it happens I don't believe it is unforgivable.
Only the LBS can decide how they want to handle it. Before I ever found this site I went through stages of great anger and was in the depths of depression and grief when I arrived here - even though the decision had been made to stay together and for my H to end his 18 month A. Forgiveness was a massive issue for me. Forgiving my H, forgiving OW, ....forgiving myself.
My H and I talked things out and we both owned our own part of the breakdown in the M....and we could also see other things that we hadn't done 'wrong' but that had contributed to the breakdown - like neglecting each other as we were so busy raising a family of four children. Forgetting who the other person was and that we actually liked each other, etc....
I still had trouble though getting my head round the fact that my H had 'cheated', and I would cycle and be ok and then I would berate him with his infidelity. He, man that he is, stood up to all that berating and he was completely transparent about everything.
Gradually the forgiveness for him came.....and I also realised that I had been unfaithful in my own way. I had used my friends to talk to about things that bothered me rather than my H. I had moaned about my H to GF's - and the more one does that the more one becomes to dislike the person one moans about. He stopped being my best friend and confident. I had rejected him and became miserable in my self imposed loneliness; so he sort a smiley face and comfort elsewhere. He was wrong, but so was I. The forgiveness on both sides came.
As for OW - well in my sitch she was a gold digger and I tried hard to forgive but it meant she took up too much space in my thoughts; so I decided to let myself not forgive her but just forget about her. That's what I have done.
As for forgiving myself......well that's a work in project, which is how I think it should be. I don't think I should forget what happened. Everyday I work at my M. It is the best gift I can give myself, my H, and my children.
I have seen a lot of direction on the boards about whether to expose or not....and who to if one does expose......and that is a personal decision and has different outcomes for different people. What I would say, is that for me, knowing WHY it happened was important, so that I could try and rectify that and work on making sure it never happened again.
I would be lying if I didn't say at times I thought I would never achieve forgiveness, but with the help of some of the fine folks on here, plus some other good cyber friends, and friends and family IRL, (who ALL were supportive), I feel I have come a long way.
It is true that forgiveness is a gift - without the ability to forgive there is no point in being here IMO - but it can take a while to realise that.
I feel deep sorrow for anyone who ends up needing this site, but you have also come to a good place, where you can hopefully offload, find friends and support, grow and heal.
That is a beautiful post, Saffie. I'm so glad that you expounded on forgiveness.
Great post. Thanks. Helping me think through things/thoughts/issues as W and I piece
Whatever the problems, I believe there is no reason for a S to be unfaithful.....however once it happens I don't believe it is unforgivable.
I agree.
Hi Saffie
There are a couple of books that really helped to go through the process of forgiveness.
It is something that we have to work hard to do, each day.
Forgiveness Book Another Book
Saffie,
Thanks for taking the time to produce such a balanced, helpful post on forgiveness. I think that, whether or not a marriage is saved after a breakdown or affair, forgiveness is absolutely necessary to either partner in order to be able to heal.
In my case, I had been a sexually abused child who spent 22 years going through the almost impossibly difficult process of reclaiming/saving myself. During this time I got married, had children, etc, but my marriage suffered because I was often acting in ways that were not yet healthy. Of course, my H, too, had physical and verbal abuse in his past that he minimized and had not yet addressed.
Quite unexpectedly, the abuser became quite prominent (nothing to do with his sexual proclivities), and I became distraught and almost suicidal. Someone suggested I needed to forgive him, and at first I though I couldn't because he was unable to admit his guilt or take responsibility. However, I learned that the forgiveness had nothing to do with him; rather, it was a way to remove him from being a figure of any importance in my life.
Forgiving him was the best thing I have done in my life. Soon, he became irrelevant. I stopped having the nightmares, the depressed periods, the feelings of being a victim, and felt a sense of peace and being "present" I couldn't ever remember having had.
A week or so later, my H started raving about this amazing woman at work who was brilliant, the nicest person there, needed a ton of help from him to get the job she really ought to have--the whole OW deal. And a part of me thought, I always wondered why I was chosen never to have a normal childhood, etc--but now I think part of it was so that I could learn to forgive. And now I'm going to be tested on that....
My H's MLC and EA eventually ended. By then we'd both done a lot of growing, and knew how to love each other in a mature and non-codependent way. I learned to forgive myself for everything I'd done wrong in the marriage, but in a compassionate, "you did the best you could at the time with the resources you had, but how would you like your best self to act from now on?" kind of way. I went through the process of forgiveness for my H when I was finally ready to do it without anger, and eventually he forgave himself for the EA as well.
Like Saffie, I didn't forgive the OW, though I did allow myself to feel some compassion for someone who is so obviously damaged, but she has receded to some unimportant place in my mind.
Forgiveness truly is a gift you give yourself. It's the difference between fumbling around in the dark tripping over obstacles, and turning on the light to see a clear path in front of you--it gives you a sense of peace and clarity that is invaluable.
My favourite ladies in one thread (I did see you guys-LOL).
I am in total agreement with the above. just completed Retrouvaille, and if i had not been able to say the past is past and move towards the idea of forgiveness then my M would be over right now. could not have gone thru Retrouvaille otherwise actually. after the many hours together over the w/e, i looked into her eyes and knew it wasnt over. then again, i suspected that before the w/e. the clincher was when she came to the same conclusion, however provisional it may be right now.
hard when u have friends and family who know but ultimately dont give one shat what they think. doing what u think is right can be lonely sometimes. but u cannot let that lead u astray from the path of forgiveness and righteousness.
forgiveness IS a gift: to yourself as well as to your spouse. i would hope a time comes when your H or W realizes the mistake they made when they did what they did. there are hints in my W's behavior which would make me think so. saw a small piece of her writing in her notebook at Retrouvaille where she asked "how can he forgive me? it is a big sin, one of the ten commandments." yes. I can do it.
she still has my heart, and I can hope we will be able to find a way to rekindle the fire between us and lay the foundation for a new marriage. my hope for the future is to renew our vows, maybe even marry her again. dreamer i guess.
do i completely trust my W? hmmm, mostly but not blindly. today for example she was at a friend's house for a couple of hours. i started to head out and saw her car coming towards me as i was driving away. she asked me where was i going? told her out. i did end up telling her that i "felt worried, uneasy, unsure." wouldve never been able to do that before. my problem was holding on to my feelings. no more. W smiled wistfully and told me not to worry. hugged me. hopefully a good sign bc it has been one month since exposure. W most def has to be in withdrawal or coming to ends of the acute stage of it.
do i love her? yes.
am i committed to her, our M and our family? yes.
and Cyrena, my wife was also abused sexually as a child at the hands of her father. she has always said she was over it, but dont believe it. dont think she has forgiven him (yet). the biggest moment early on in our R was when she told me about it. i have always supported her and tried to protect her. it did not change how i feel or felt about her (nor should it have). i have always wondered about the influence of the abuse on our current sitch.
and as for the OM2? hmmm, not sure if i forgive him. maybe in time. he is a FB predator (i absolutely detest facebook which thankfully the W now dislikes as well recognizing the danger inherent in it so much so that she agrees w/ getting our 15 and 13 y/o D's off of it), a tragic/flawed figure w/ multiple issues (drugs as youth needing rehab, alcohol now, anger, womanizer) who appears quite damaged, for how else could you do what you did knowing we had 5 children and he has 4! question for my W? maybe but I still know i can and do forgive her.
i actually did ask him one time in a text: "how much harm is enough? what did i ever do to u? My kids... no more. pls." when i did speak to him the one time i ever did and hope to ever do, he told me that that text devastated him. it should. too bad his conscience didnt stop him from doing what he did. thus forgiveness for him? good question. maybe God will lead me to the right answer bc He forgives us for our sins, no?
forgiveness is the light and the way. i see that now. i no longer obsess or think about the details of their affair. not interested. down that road lies darkness and dissolution. the past IS past as long as u do not commit the same mistakes that lead u astray.
forgot my signature.
________________________________________________________________
M: 42, W: 40
T: 18y, M: 15y
S7 S9; D4 D13 D15
---------------------------------------------
Nov 2008 - Feb 2009 - EA/PA - OM1
Mar 2009 - Exposed - W didnt come clean 100%, admitted A, no details
May 2009 - Nov 2009 - FT but no resolution
Nov 2009 - DB'ing (not very well bc)
Mar 2010 - ILYBNILWY - still ML regularly
Mar 2010 - Wife shuts me out of FaceBook
Mar 2010 - Sep 2010 - EA/PA - OM2 (lives in FL but working NY)
9/1/10 - OM2 moves back to FL, his M estranged in past, 4 children
8/31/10 - install keylogger (shouldve done it sooner, duh)
9/6/10 - Confront W/OM2/OMW2
9/7/10 - Exposure family/friends
9/7/10 - W says may file D, talk sep?
9/7/10 to present - OM2 discloses A in detail to OMW2, offers wife 100% transparency
9/14/10 - Communicated OM2/OMW2, end contact, sep no longer option
Sept 2010 - W initially won't admit A until 9/16/10, wanting "closure", reluctantly agreed no contact
Retrouvaille 9/24-9/26: great experience, W hopeful for 1st time, agrees FB/social networking is bad influence, texts/emails much less, mostly warm but some cold days, not physical yet but for occasional short kisses
---------------------------------------------
Current - Contact with OM2 unknown, suspect done for now bc W acting strange, ?withdrawal
Current - only small details of A revealed, but transparent
Current - completed Retrouvaille, pretty good thus far, talking, sharing feelings, talks about future, wearing rings again (!!) after few weeks of not
she still has my heart, and I can hope we will be able to find a way to rekindle the fire between us and lay the foundation for a new marriage. my hope for the future is to renew our vows, maybe even marry her again. dreamer i guess.
That's what we did....but we made it a small thing - just H, me and the children. The vicar knew exactly what we had been through and helped us word things so beautifully. It was just right.
do i completely trust my W? hmmm, mostly but not blindly. today for example she was at a friend's house for a couple of hours. i started to head out and saw her car coming towards me as i was driving away. she asked me where was i going? told her out. i did end up telling her that i "felt worried, uneasy, unsure." wouldve never been able to do that before. my problem was holding on to my feelings. no more. W smiled wistfully and told me not to worry. hugged me.
This will come in time. Trust has to be earned....and you will still have wobbles when similar circumstances present themselves.....but at some point it does seem to get better. You suddenly look back and realise you haven't been feeling those panicky feelings for a while and things are more relaxed.
Just don't forget that your M is something to KEEP WORKING ON.....DBing is for life, IMO.
Thank you BND for your book suggestions. I will look them up.
a beautiful new 'classic' thread. Thanks,Saffie.
I don't know if there is a "forgiving personality" and an "unforgiving personality", or if everything depends on the situation. Where the spouse is unrepentant, is forgiveness wasted? What about the spouse who can't forgive himself even though his spouse is willing to forgive him? The person who doesn't trust that the other can forgive? Human relations are so complicated and difficult!
thanks for your words Saffie. at Retrouvaille they tell u exactly that. funny bc yest we had our weekly post weekend meeting, and my W was "out of it" or seemed uninterested. she later relayed how this whole thing seems so tiring at times. the alternative i told her? did she think D would cure it all? funny but do they think that walking away and going w/ D will make it all better? that i will still be in her life and she in mines. our children? we did love one another once (or at least she did me). i think that it is worth the effort. right now i feel as if i am alone. suspect she is backsliding just a little. it worries me.
there is something to be said about having a forgiving personality. it starts w/ u forgiving yourself. then u try and send message that u are open to forgiving them. u do that in your words and deeds. i have agreed to not let myself think about OM and my W meeting in roadside motels. the thought flits into my brain but i do not let it linger.
too true. it would be better to be a robot sometimes.
I don't know if there is a "forgiving personality" and an "unforgiving personality", or if everything depends on the situation. Where the spouse is unrepentant, is forgiveness wasted? What about the spouse who can't forgive himself even though his spouse is willing to forgive him? The person who doesn't trust that the other can forgive? Human relations are so complicated and difficult!
I've seen people write, "I'll forgive him if he just comes home--I'm a very forgiving person like that." However, to me that seems more like a bargaining position than genuine forgiveness. To me, forgiveness seems to involve a thorough examination of what a person expects from a healthy relationship, how s/he contributed to the problem, and the determination to lead a healthier life in specific ways. In other words, a "forgiving personality" might stem from a desire to please others, while an "unforgiving personality" could be a form of judging others. So the reason for the forgiveness is paramount.
Is the forgiveness "wasted" if the spouse is unrepentant? From my experience forgiving an unrepentant child molester, the mindset of the "forgiven" is irrelevant--the relief is all for the forgiver. When I got to the point where I was ready to go through the process of forgiving my H (the first few times I had to stop the process because I was still too angry), I didn't tell him what I'd done. Even if the injuring person doesn't know he's forgiven, the injured one is set free. And perhaps the resulting change in your behaviour might help them to begin to forgive themselves?
I've been doing some reading on the Karpman Drama Triangle--quite illuminating stuff. Essentially, some of us carry limiting roles which we learned in childhood into our adult lives. During a crisis we can retreat back into being Victims, Rescuers or Accusers, and tend to switch around on the triangle. (That's why a person having an affair can still feel like they're the victim, as well as trying to "rescue" a very messed-up OP, and hurling accusations at the spouse.)
The spouse who says, "You'll never forgive me for what I did" is unable to give up his Victim position and take responsibility for his own life. Similarly, if he can't forgive himself, he's choosing to stay stuck in the role of his own Accuser.
As LBS, we stay stuck on the triangle if we insist on seeing ourselves as Victims ("I'll never be able to trust anyone again"), Rescuers ("I forgive you because I've always been so much stronger than you") or Accusers ("At least I'VE never had an AFFAIR!"). In all of these cases we're not being completely honest with ourselves about our motivations, or how we gain self-worth from seeing ourselves in that particular way. The only way to leave the triangle (and the dysfunctions in our family of origin) is to forgive.
I cant forgive him, yet. I walk around with accusations ready to form, I block them, dont necessarily express them but it affects my mood, my being, my daily life.
Through this horrible process I realised my love for H was genuine, bigger and stronger than of what I thought myself capable of. Now, I wonder if that is really true. I wonder if pride played a big role all these months/years.
I am jealous of other couples that have "no infidelity" bewteen them. I am feeling this scar 24hrs a day every day. Everything feels...not good enough, not real enough, not pure enough. He feels to me as a man that wasted OUR life and came back without ever being able to make up for these last years.
The lies were told, the hurt was caused, he took away something unilaterely and broke it. What he came back for, is broken. I look at him and see him as someone that felt passion, love for someone else while I was still there, alive and willing. He chose someone over me. No doubts abotu that.
I made mistakes and aknowledged them, tons of them, we both did. We could unmake those, we are improving. BUt..., we cant "unmake" his affair. It happened.
We were sitting at the doc's office yesterday, waiting for the results for my mammogram. He was there, with me, all I could think of was that the last time he was there for someone was for her for the abortion. All I could remember was that 4 years ago he didnt even show up when I faced another scare. Yesterday's experience made that one FEEL so awful. The comparison of how he was then and now, didnt make him look better now in my eyes, it made him look worse back then. Twisted huh?
I dont know if he will keep on accepting my feelings. I know he still hasnt looked me in the eye and asked for forgiveness. I still dont know if he has made a road map in his head to keep us safe in the future. Somehow I feel it is all a matter of luck and I hate that fact.
I am trying to isolate the past and forgive THAT and not confuse it with the future.I know I am missing something from within that will help me move on. I wish I knew what.
Kalni,
I recognize a lot of the emotions you describe, because I certainly got mired in them for a long time after my H decided to work on the M. And the hardest thing to get over was the feeling that, once he'd chosen to share himself intimately with another woman for 2 years, he'd ruined everything we'd ever had. Yet I don't feel that way any more--I feel as though our love was strong enough to weather even that betrayal. Besides, we would never have learned how to communicate effectively and make deep changes to how we deal with ourselves and each other without this crisis, so it was necessary. But, as with all other parts of this process, you can't skip any parts and rush to the conclusion ... you have to live through the pain. I think you're doing a really good job of riding through that pain and confusion, especially with everything else going on in your life; know that it will resolve.
If you're interested, you might look at the website A Buddhist Library for "materials by Guy Pettitt." He has designed a process of forgiveness which is more thorough and beautifully crafted than anything else I've seen. Perhaps reading through it would help you to recognize what you still need for healing to happen?
I hope your H will also do the work to be able to understand why he made the choices he did, and to forgive himself for them, because that would help you to move forward as well.
wow Cyrena. that was an awesome post. i totally agree about the idea of forgiveness. in the weeks following exposure, i did a lot of self exploration, a lot of it "unconscious" (?) i think. i would go to church, sit there thru the morning mass and cry asking God for guidance. I took comfort knowing He was there. i could give Him everything, let my guard down. it was there that i realized i could forgive. i could move on without my W as well.
my desire to forgive my W does not stem from a "need" to forgive her as a means of enticing her back. and i have not chosen to "not forgive" her bc in my heart of hearts suspect that she realizes the impact of what she has done, at least on a level. it has been really hard to not judge her as u can imagine. i question her sense of course, especially when i find myself thinking about some of the details of their trysts which i try not to do and funny enough she still denies ever happened. suspect the latter stems from her guilt. bc to acknowledge it happened would mean facing up to the reality of it. it is denial of a sorts.
i do not mean to hijack but i have to share this with someone, so sorry. today we were in the car talking about a friend of hers who is moving far away. my W supposedly went over to this woman's house to work on her "CV" at some point 2 months ago after going to the gym, and i have always suspected my W was actually meeting with OM that day bc i was working and both my kids and I could not reach her for hours.
W was telling me how this woman and her husband were having a hard time selling their house before re-locating. so i asked the typical questions like "how big is it," "how many bedrooms," "is it nice?" etc. she couldn't answer with any authority and started to make up answers. i saw right thru it, but i did not let this go on for long bc i recognized right away that she was being forced to lie. she never went to this woman's house. my W obviously knew that and she could suspect i did as well. it is a time like that when i have to catch myself and remember that i have chosen to forgive. i did it today most def. but it is the hardest thing in the world to do at times.
yesterday, we were in the car on the highway, just she and i without our kids who were off from school, driving to look at a car to buy. at one point i look out the window and see "super 8 motel" which i know is where they used to meet the few or several times they did. it was all i could do to keep my self control intact. i did NOT look at her. could not. i started to well up with sadness and some frustration. again i was able to control it and remember my choice to forgive. it is like a rollercoaster.
i hope and feel that she will one day awaken to the realization of what she has wrought. do they ever i ask myself? i WANT her to forgive herself bc in doing so she will be able to move on and perhaps forgive me as well for the role i played in the deterioration of our M.
your words particularly resonate with me Cyrena bc my W has chosen to never see her father the child molester ever again. do not think she has "forgiven" him bc suspect she has comparmentalized off her feelings and thoughts on the matter bc they are too hurtful.
and wow! the Karpman Drama Triangle!! your sentence on how my W who was having the A probably felt like the victim (bc of what i had "done" to her) as well as trying to "rescue" a very messed up OM (said it in prior post where he had been drug abuser, is physically a wreck, drinks, womanizes, has "abusive" wife etc) and would hurl insults at me like "i despise you and have never loved u." she is also fond of saying even now how she has never ever really wanted to make love or have sex with me. it was all one sided bc it was to keep me "pleased." married 15 y and pretty much W says it was like that for most of our M. 5 kids, and many acts of love making later especially when i remember holding her in my arms w/ her crying and holding on to me tightly w/ what appeared to be tenderness.
of all the things she has said to me, that has really hurt me the most. yet i have to persist in my desire to forgive bc this cannot b the woman i married nor is it the woman i want to be with. can she truly feel that way? unfathomable that she would be able to concoct things like that. does it ever end? does she wake up? i have not pressed her on matters of the bedroom at all, limiting myself to very short kisses. ugh. what a mess.
but in the end you are SO right. the process of forgiving is ultimately what enables u to escape from the triangle, both she and I.
true words again Cyrena.
i too wish i could fast forward to the end of the movie or at least to the good part. but you have to do the work to get there, u have to cry, u have to smile and u above all have to forgive. the pain is there and will be. it is a matter of learning to accept it and say that the past is past. focus on the present and the future.
if u have not attended retrouvaille, then at least look into it. helpourmarriage.org
Forgiveness is a choice. The 'forgiving personality' doesn't feel right to me. My understanding (and experience) with forgiveness has been that it is counter-productive to forgive too early without delving into what happened, exploring and sharing feelings.
In nearly all situations I am aware of, even with infidelity, there are things that both spouses have done that have been harmful to the relationship.
One of the best books on forgiveness is the one by Robin Casarjian.
following u here as well ABG. Retrouvaille thru and thru, but truer words were never spoken. 100% agree. u have to choose to forgive then act on it. the decision to forgive is an extension of the decision to love.
Beautiful, SaveMM. Wow! i never thought when I asked those questions that I would read such heartfelt answers. I have tears in my eyes from Kalni, Cyrena and Save. Arnie, sorry, no tears.
Ok, Arnie, I think you may be right about there not being a forgiving personality, but if you had been reading this website in the past 6 months you would have seen some very unforgiving personalities, and that's what brought me to question it. I have seen people claim to reconcile who are so untrusting that they continue surveillance on the spouse. Forgiving? No, they recount time and again all the spouse did wrong and then aggrandize the acts so that they are tantamount to murder. And then, being ever helpful, they went from thread to thread reminding each person of the affronts committed by their spouses, to keep those hurts at the forefronts of their minds.
Kalni, your posts do make me feel sad because I was here all along while you fought to save this marriage, and now to win and still feel like you've lost. I wish I had an answer for you. And Cyrena, to think of all that you have been through and to be able to forgive so completely things that most people would think were unforgivable. And Save, keep going to Post. They will get to a session on intimacy. It is a difficult topic and not something easily addressed by others, but Retrouvaille will try to help you there, too. Human relations are so complicated!
Recovery from Infidelity as a Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
Dennis Ortman
Donna and Jim were soul mates. They met in high school, became sweethearts, and married soon after graduation. To their friends, they seemed to have the perfect marriage. When Donna stumbled upon Jim's affair with her best friend, she was devastated. She was obsessed with the betrayal and filled with rage. She had nightmares and flashbacks about the affair and complained to a friend, "Something inside me died, and I can't bring it back to life."
In my 14 years as a Roman Catholic priest, and 14 more as a practicing psychologist, I've heard many stories like Donna's. Many who discover a partner's infidelity have lasting reactions similar to post-traumatic stress disorder, like people whose lives have been threatened in war, natural disasters, violent crimes, domestic violence, or auto accidents. They are traumatized by the loss of partnership and security.
They are preoccupied with the betrayal and consumed by fear, anger, and helplessness. They have periods of emotional numbness and avoid anything that reminds them of the affair, yet relive the horror of the discovered adultery at unexpected times and suffer nightmares and flashbacks. They live with heightened anxiety, and dread another betrayal. Consequently, they withdraw from relationships and from life.
The recovery is arduous and can take years. In my experience, it requires three steps. The first is to reestablish a sense of security. Trauma victims are flooded by emotions and need stability before decisions can be made. Therapy, supportive relationships, and spiritual practices are essential ingredients. The second stage is to make a decision about the relationship. Honest and courageous reflection is needed to assess one's deepest desires, the partner's character, and what led to the rupture of the relationship. The third and lengthiest phase is the healing that can come only through forgiveness from the heart. The offended person who refuses to forgive will be imprisoned in resentment and rage.
Victims of adultery often blame themselves and must face their faults and limitations. Forgiving the adulterous partner may seem impossible, but is necessary for inner peace. Understanding what pain, suffering, and character flaws led to the affair can replace anger with compassion. In the end, only through forgiveness from the heart can one can be released to love again without fear.
The description of the feelings and state sounds very familiar to me. When I try to find what I need to forgive myself for, maybe selfishly I dont know- is not my shortcomings as partner. I do know what I did wrong, I actually often did all the things that books and writers describe as "love killers". I was judgemental, harsh, etc etc. But I know why I was like that. It was the only way I knew to try and get closer to my husband who because of his work and our schedules, had "abandoned me" for a long time. To me it was an unvoidable period in our life, until the problems with our kids would pass. We had a child centered marriage. So, I regret my way of approaching him (I was very stupid and running on emotions) but stangely, one of the things I cant seem to forgive myself about, is the fact that he fooled me for so long. I feel like I "helped him" destroy our M by being so naive and not realising sooner that he was just a man like many others.
When I heard OW's comment about me finally finding out "ohh she knew all along, this is just the confirmation" I felt rage. I knew there was someone that had attacted his interest, I knew there was someone -the soecific one- that gave him the strength and motive to leave us, I didnt for one minute believe our life would be seen under a awful light because of another woman. That our history was rewritten because of his love for her. I got the chicken and egg story completely the wrong way. Facts and dates show that our R started to deteriorate because of his affair. He "left me emotionally"- which triggered my bad reactions, after he had found her. The timeline is so telling. So, no I cant forgive myself for not waking up earlier. Maybe, and I believe that- if I knew then, we would be divorced now. Through reading and learning and this forum, I was able, I had time, to find some compassion for him. But still, I was such a fool. Thinking of both of them together, laughing behind my back, checking out MY schedule, my daily routines to arrange their secret meetings, the lies I never bothered to check etc etc, makes me furious. Pride?
Kalni,
Your sitch was not unlike mine - a child centred M - not knowing about a long standing A- planning behind my back - feeling laughed at - humiliation due to what seemed like everyone in H's business world knowing what was going on yet hiding it from me.....
I hate that he destroyed the exclusivity that our M gave us YET I have gotten to the forgiveness stage but it has taken a long time. Don't give up. Let him prove himself. My H started trying to show how much our M meant much sooner so perhaps forgiving him has been easier for me. I have hurled lots of abuse at him from time to time and he has taken it. He has absorbed my pain and acknowledged it - that truly has helped so much.
I think it is important not to expect too much from oneself sometimes. Yes forgiveness is a choice........but when you are 'able' to do it. I do not believe it can be forced - it has to come from one's heart. I also think one has to recognise one's limitations - hence the fact that I am unable to forgive OW. I no longer care about that......and perhaps I have heaped some of the blame and anger I felt at my H unjustly on to her....but if that has helped me in forgiving my H, ( who is the one who matters to me), then so be it. I am at peace with where I am currently; at peace but not complacent.
There have been so many fantastic posts on this thread. Thank you Lotus for giving me the words with which to start it off.
Sorry, Lotus, I'll just have to try and do better next time...
I believe that both the forgiving and the unforgiving personality are coming from the same emotional place, namely fear.
The one who forgives too easily and quickly tends towards people-pleasing and is often afraid of the conflict that ensues if they are completely honest about where they are (that would be me).
The unforgiving one is coming from a fear of being hurt (again) and their defense against that is to hold on to the hurt; if they forgive, then it feels too vulnerable and scary to let go (that would be my W).
As a "forgiving" type, I am learning to slow things down and process my own feelings more deeply before forgiving; as the "unforgiving" one, my W is learning to delve into her hurts, to express them, and ultimately forgive. I used to be "here, let me help you with that" - the effects of which are amusing in retrospect, but were rather painful at the time. Needless to say, I am learning to allow her to proceed at her (not my) pace.
Forgiveness is like exercising - it is very difficult to start with a huge weight or by running a marathon. One useful thing is to pick one (and only one) thing each day that my W has done that has annoyed me and forgive her for that. That is, to unconditionally release any negative thoughts I have. She (presumably) does the same.
It's sometimes an uphill struggle even with "small" things. The other night she was annoyed with something a friend of our son's did and was venting to me. I was trying to listen mindfully and validate her when something I said triggered her. She was upset and was yelling at me - and nothing I could do or say seemed to have any effect. I in turn got mad at her for misunderstanding my words. We wound up not speaking for the rest of the evening and went to bed mad. (Yeah, I know we're supposed to "never go to bed mad" - doesn't always work out that way!).
The next morning, I did some soul-searching and recognized that even though I had done nothing "wrong" to "deserve" her reaction, I had reacted to her reaction with a kind of holier-than-thou attitude. I then realized that her reaction was coming from her "old tapes" from the past, and really had nothing to do with me. So I forgave myself for my attitude that contributed to the conflict, and forgave her for her reactivity. Although we haven't discussed it yet, just that shift in attitude with forgiveness (which she likely has done as well) has made all the difference in how we have been since. In the past, even such a minor thing like this would have led to days of the "silent treatment."
The point being that the forgiveness "muscle" can be built up by starting with small things and moving to the bigger things.
Saffie, you are entirely right about not forcing it - the choice of forgiveness must be completely of one's own free will and (ideally) after having processed and acknowledged the hurt.
Interesting, my way of forgiving is very different from that. The thought of what I'm angry at comes into my head and I mentally call up either the memory of me doing something equally bad or him doing something nice. The positive cancels out the negative and I make the decision to let it go. I won't get angry about that thing. And it's gone. I will admit that I think the wrongs that I am faced with forgiving are easier to deal with than what Kalni, Cyrena and Saffie have dealt with. And for that, I am thankful. Things can always be worse.
like that Lotus, thanks. have to try it. hard to do sometimes as u can probably attest to.