I exposed the A that I discovered, and that seems to have thrown cold water on the situation. At least for now.
I was expecting denial and anger from her. I wasn't prepared for the maliciousness and manipulation, and particularly the way she's involving our S(6).
She's now actively referring to D, as if it's something we've agreed to. Lawyers are involved, money is an issue, and it seems to be getting worse than I dreamed it could.
And to make it even more unbearable, I now have almost as much hatred towards her as I do love. I can forgive the A, but the behavior since, especially manipulating our S, is almost more than I can bear. I am tormented and distraught. How can the woman I've known for all these years have turned into this malicious, vindictive and manipulative harpy?
Hurting terribly...
It's called addiction Entangled... and it does get better.. this is the low point when you push things forward toward her ending the affair or destroying the marriage... It's a rough point, but you just have to muscle through it...
It's not your wife you are dealing with, its an addiction.
I'm trying...I really am. I'm filled with doubt and disillusionment. One moment, I remember how we fell in love all those years ago, and the next I think about how she's doing things now that I wouldn't have expected from her in a million years. I had such hope there were signs of softening and affection earlier in the year, only to be replaced by betrayal and hostility. I know this isn't my wife, my lover, and the mother of my child that I'm dealing with. It's a creature of fear, disillusionment, distrust, and pain. One moment I tell myself that I'll not help her in destroying my family and our M, and the next I tell myself that she's so far gone that she can't change and our M can't be saved. I didn't think I could hurt more than when she left. I was wrong.
Exposure is rough on addicts... You have burst the bubble of the secret fantasy... The addiction feels violated... It DOES get better...
She's not a creature, addiction messes with the mind something fierce and the end result is what you have seen.. particularly when you attack the addiction head on such as you have...
Let her deal with a lawyer, the lawyer only talks one language - reality... Which is what she needs to hear right now...
You are protecting your family and believe it or not - your wife as well.
It's a creature of fear, disillusionment, distrust, and pain.
I don't know what she is going through, and neither do you, and in the state she is in she probably can't tell you what she is going through, and it will change to something a minute later even if she gets out sometime honest.
But... take a look at yourself too because this is filling you with disillusionment, distrust and pain as well, and I bet you don't know how you feel from day to day either.
It's OK. I've been there myself. You have to learn not to fear what is going to happen tomorrow. I know you just want to know what the future holds, but the truth is that we never know what the future holds, and until this happened and you started to think about your M ending, you were probably a lot less fearful of the future too.
I can guarantee you, anyway, that when you decided to start dating your W, you were uncertain of the future, and it didn't bother you. That is the place you need to get back to first, IMO: be comfortable with not knowing what is going to happen (you will never truly know anyway) because that is only attatchment. Whatever you decide to do when you fully detatched with be the right thing to do.
Thanks for the support guys.
That's the rub isn't it. Up to the point when she left, every new adventure with her was met with uncertainty, but with hope and excitement. Now that has been replaced with uncertainty, fear, and anguish.
Have you ever had to deal with an addict before? Alcoholic? Compulsive gambling? Anything?
A bit here and there. Not at this personal level, and not during this part of the addiction.
Whatever you decide to do when you fully detatched with be the right thing to do.
this should have read:
Whatever you decide to do when you are fully detatched will be the right thing to do.
A bit here and there. Not at this personal level, and not during this part of the addiction.
Welcome to the Temple of Doom my friend...
There are some TV programs that may help you
Addicted
Intervention
Hoarders
These are reality programs that follow the life/lives of addicts in their struggle to live a normal life again... It's quite the ride to watch a few of these... you will see some very common behaviuors and get some really great education.
I would reccomend a book as well, but most people don't have the time for a book, so I am reccomending this instead.
Can you be more specific about the cold water dousing the affair "for now" thing?
Sorry, vague statements aren't something we can work with... Specifically what happened to make you think the affair has been weakened by the exposure?
I've seen Intervention, and I'm currently reading Not Just Friends.
After exposing A to OM fam, OM lashed back at me. Told OM in no uncertain terms to stay away from W, and he agreed. He seems to have less spring in his step. I think having his fam know he was in an A was the last thing he wanted, and he may have lost some interest. W just denies anything, so no assurance there. I think the PA has been derailed for the moment, also because there has been a logistical barrier for the past week or so. Will have to see if opportunity allows PA to continue, or if OM has decided it's not worth the damage to his own fam...
His wife will be watching him now... This is the first step... keep exposing, keep your face out there protesting... Don't hide from the affair, address it with confidence and marital commitment and you will get respect from those who you want in your life... They won't stand for this... Encourage some to speak up on your behalf or at the very least NOT interact with eitehr of them... shut them out until they act their age
What do I want? To SAVE my marriage?
What are my immediated goals? To try to rebuild the trust that has been broken so we are able to work with each other, not against each other. To calm things down so we are able to work productively together rather than defensively against each other.
I have an opportunity today to be the bigger person, to stem the flow of distrust and posturing, to show that I am not interested in doing battle, but must insist on certain ground rules. I have an opportunity to show the changes that I have made in myself, to practice real giving, and to practice Divorce Busting to save my marriage.
Keep the big picture in mind. Give what I can without making myself vulnerable. Take cautious steps towards rebuilding trust. Working together is ultimately better than fighting through lawyers. DO NO HARM!
Be strong for myself, my marriage, and my family. Don't persue, don't beg, show my best self at all times.
I don't need my wife's consent or help to be able to save my marriage. One person can chancge a relationship. DO NO HARM!
What do I want? To SAVE my marriage?
What are my immediated goals? To try to rebuild the trust that has been broken so we are able to work with each other, not against each other. To calm things down so we are able to work productively together rather than defensively against each other.
I have an opportunity today to be the bigger person, to stem the flow of distrust and posturing, to show that I am not interested in doing battle, but must insist on certain ground rules. I have an opportunity to show the changes that I have made in myself, to practice real giving, and to practice Divorce Busting to save my marriage.
Keep the big picture in mind. Give what I can without making myself vulnerable. Take cautious steps towards rebuilding trust. Working together is ultimately better than fighting through lawyers. DO NO HARM!
Be strong for myself, my marriage, and my family. Don't persue, don't beg, show my best self at all times.
I don't need my wife's consent or help to be able to save my marriage. One person can chancge a relationship. DO NO HARM!
I dunno, maybe it's just me (I'm in a particularly cynical mood to do), but this whole post just sounds very supplicating and acquiescent to me. It SOUNDS all well and good, but it can also easily be interpreted as some sort of unilateral disarmament/appeasement/"extend an open hand, and not a clenched fist" thing.
Yeah, we've seen how well that works with the Iranians, the North Koreans, the Palestinians, the Venezuelans and the Chinese.
Entangled, did something change in your plan since yesterday??
Puppy
Exposure has pushed her into a corner, and she's escalated things on many fronts. Situation has been volatile for a week now. There has been some open communication and and signs that everything that has been happening for the past week or so is just defensive, and not necessarily her honest intentions.
I can't believe a word she says, and she's clearly in the midst of this addiction and the denial, lying and covering her tracks that goes along with exposure. But I do beleive that she doesn't want to turn this into all out war.
We're at a turning point where things can get really really ugly, or possibly lay the groundwork for rebuilding trust and starting to work together.
In DB parlance, cornering her with the affair has had the same affect as persuing her and begging her to reconsider leaving. She's being pushed out the door that much more quickly and headed towards D.
I think that it may be possible to settle things down, begin to work together on some issues, establish ground rules re our son and her illicit affair without pushing her further into a corner and causing her to jump towards D. She'll never admit to the A, but I think I can get her to agree to stop doing it without admitting to it. I get the sense that I caught the A in it's first few months, and quick exposure may have made it unappealing for both of them to continue.
I'm not trying to be enabling and a door mat. Simply taking a softer approach so she does not feel cornered, attacked, and can keep her dignity.
You know her best. I've personally RARELY seen that approach work, but I don't have to live with the consequences, so you have to feel confident in the approach that you're using.
It just seems to me that you're allowing her reactions to your moves change your strategy (not just your tactics), when that reaction (anger, escalation, obfuscation, deceit, etc.) is TOTALLY PREDICTABLE and totally "SCRIPT."
No one's saying to make this "all out war." I am, however, advocating a strong, unwavering, calm approach.
Puppy
In DB parlance, cornering her with the affair has had the same affect as persuing her and begging her to reconsider leaving. She's being pushed out the door that much more quickly and headed towards D.
This is why I advocate that people's short list of "dealbreakers" should be just that -- SHORT. Just two, three or maybe four things that represent your "N.U.T.S.", or as I call them, your "Boundaries of Personal Integrity." They should be things that you COULD NOT ABIDE ANYWAY, so -- if they force them out -- then, well, you couldn't have lived with that (say, a marriage with an ongoing affair, or even post-affair continued contact) anyway.
SHORT-TERM, the laying -- and enforcing -- of boundaries often DOES push them away from you. But longer-term, it actually brings them back, and into a healthier-balanced marital relationship built on mutual respect for each other's boundaries.
Puppy
This is the type of thing that I have been trying to warn people about. Yes, "do no harm", those are the exact words I have used.
Negotiation. Listening. Empathy. Marriage is a relationship, not a battle. I don't know how you exposed her. If you publicly humiliated her, that could be a lasting problem. If all you did was confront her, this could be a crisis that could lead to a better resolution. Your current attitude sounds good. Try not to treat her like the enemy. There is too much emphasis on fighting in the phrase "fighting for my marriage". Try to think of it more as negotiating for my marriage.
Definitely two very different and distinct approaches, Entangled.
It's your call. I think you'll find we'll support you either way.
Puppy
In DB parlance, cornering her with the affair has had the same affect as persuing her and begging her to reconsider leaving. She's being pushed out the door that much more quickly and headed towards D.
This is why I advocate that people's short list of "dealbreakers" should be just that -- SHORT. Just two, three or maybe four things that represent your "N.U.T.S.", or as I call them, your "Boundaries of Personal Integrity." They should be things that you COULD NOT ABIDE ANYWAY, so -- if they force them out -- then, well, you couldn't have lived with that (say, a marriage with an ongoing affair, or even post-affair continued contact) anyway.
SHORT-TERM, the laying -- and enforcing -- of boundaries often DOES push them away from you. But longer-term, it actually brings them back, and into a healthier-balanced marital relationship built on mutual respect for each other's boundaries.
Puppy
Puppy that's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, in a non threatening way. To open the door to work on the immediate issues before us together (she seems close to agreeing to some form of therapy to work on basic issues, not R), while also letting her know that we need to establish ground rules for the two dealbreakers for me, and to agree to and respect those rules.
This is the type of thing that I have been trying to warn people about. Yes, "do no harm", those are the exact words I have used.
Negotiation. Listening. Empathy. Marriage is a relationship, not a battle. I don't know how you exposed her. If you publicly humiliated her, that could be a lasting problem. If all you did was confront her, this could be a crisis that could lead to a better resolution. Your current attitude sounds good. Try not to treat her like the enemy. There is too much emphasis on fighting in the phrase "fighting for my marriage". Try to think of it more as negotiating for my marriage.
Thanks Lotus.
Ultimately, wether this ends in D or Reconciliation, this is someone I love with all my heart, whom I do not want to hurt, and who is the mother of my son. We will always be a part of each others lives, and our family, together or separated, will ultimately be better if we can work together, not against each other. I've told her that I want to work with her, but that we need to accept that we are working towards opposite goals. And I will tell her that my two dealbreakers are just that, dealbreakers, and we both need to agree to respect those boundraies.
The "Script" may be the same, but the relationships and circumstances are all vastly different. I guess that's why Michelle gives us so many tools in the relationship tool box. LRT, 180, Act as if, GAL, give it time, see what works, and then try something different if it's not.
Lotus, I exposed to her and his family, in a very polite and matter of fact way. No maliciousness or anger. Just asked for their support in letting them know it was not appropriate. I think that part may have had the desired effect.
The "Script" may be the same, but the relationships and circumstances are all vastly different.
See, that's just my point. In my experience in studying thousands of affairs, even the relationships and the circumstances AREN'T vastly different.
Everyone THINKS that they are . . . but they're not. Subtle differences, yes, but all of the basic dynamics are the same, and they usually follow one of only three or four basic "scripts."
Puppy
This whole thing still looks like a negotiation...
you can't negotiate with an addict.
You CAN restrict their preferable choices (open marriage), and press them to make choices they don't want (divorce or reconcile)
I just haven't seen negotiating with addicts to be effective... only LBS action to restrict thier choices to healhtier directions
I'm trying to do both I guess. Negotiate on issues that need to be negotiated on (finances, etc.) and setting boundries for things that are not acceptable (A, open marriage). What I don't know is if A has ended or not. I know it's been sidtracked for the past week or so. If it is over, and if they both have walked away beacuse it has been exposed (even though they won't discuss it), then we're really just talking about separation issues.
You CAN restrict their preferable choices (open marriage), and press them to make choices they don't want (divorce or reconcile)
And how exactly can I restrict their choices? I can tell her it's unacceptable, etc., but in the end I can't keep her from being with him. I can take further actions if it continues, but I can't keep it from happening.
Consequences...
She does A
You do B
You don't threaten or talk about it, you just do it.
This is why people stop their car at red lights ENT... they know there will be consequences if they don't. They don't negotiate with the light, they either stop the car or they plow through and accept the consequences.
What are YOU prepared to DO if she doen'st stop?
If she doesn't stop (etiher by breaking a promise TO STOP and you catch her, or by outright refusing and you catch her ) you bring consequences down on her
No talk, you just DO IT.
She will learn that when she
Takes an ACTION
You will take an equal and consequential REACTION
There will be no talk, no begging, no complaints, you are just prepared to ACT if SHE DOES
1 She cheats
2 You expose it
3 She cheats again
4 You expose more
5 She cheats again
6 You get a separation agreement and ask her to take her affair out of the family home
7 She cheats again
8 You expose AND pack her bags
9 She cheats again
10 You get a lawyer
You see here there is no talking, there is just action based on her choices... stop the negotiation, she's just going to
Promise you she will stop, but she will go underground instead
She makes a commitment to stop
You monitor for a week
She cheats again
You ACT
There is NO TALKING here, you just DO
Previous two posts, combined:
That one just made the archives, Allen.
Entangled, as I said above, this is YOUR CALL. YOU need to feel comfortable with this approach. Reasonable people disagree, but it's hardly a "90/10" thing -- more like "60/40". But if you DO go this route, THIS is the way you do it.
Puppy
We need to put a web page up with all those archives in them... info scattered in a forum isnt' very conducive to education...
Thanks for the fiver!
