Just like the title of the thread: Why would anyone forgive infidelity? I'd like to hear all the different reasons. I'm interested because this happened to someone in my extended family and everybody's all about sweeping it under the rug,don't say a word, it never happened. And the spouse who was cheated on is a cousin of mine that I have long treated like a brother, so I'm just mildly p*ss*d that his parents, mine, the whole lot don't stongly take his side and tell this woman we welcomed into our family to shove off. And when I've tried to talk to him about it, he says he appreciates my loyalty but he's "dealing with it." What kind of limp-wristed passive crap is that? Ugh, I'm so mad. I know without doubt that if my wife ever did what his did, we'd be front page news the next morning. And it goes the other way; no woman should put up even ONCE with a cheating husband. Why doesn't anyone refuse to take abuse anymore?
they invented these 2 things called love and forgiveness. try them sometime.
I really can't say more than what BC said. I used to think the same way as you, TN. It is hard to fathom until you have been through it. Unconditional love, commitment, forgiveness, patience, understanding,......
You don't know how you will react until it happens to you.
I always thought I would be like you TnGuy, but when it happened I realised just what I AND my children would lose if I walked off. I loved my H and I knew that my behaviour had contributed to what he did. Life isn't black & white.
Because some of us took our vows before God very seriously.
What kind of limp-wristed passive crap is that?
The bigger man forgives, the coward walks away.
I thought the same thing but when it happens and you still love your spouse....throw in kids....then it all changes. My first wife cheated I took her back, recovered, had another kid and she did it again. Does that make me weak...maybe but I wanted a intact family not a divorced one that I had. I wanted 100% time with my kids not every other weekends. In my case we both were in the military and whoever didn't get primary custody would only see the kids 30 days out of the year...unless we were both based at the same base or state. We divorced anyways but when she was at her final base before retirement.
Thanks for the quick attention. But some of my questions remain unanswered (at least fully).
1) To Saffie: Please don't blame yourself for what your spouse did. It was his choice to cheat. You can't make anyone cheat. And please explain how you can still love someone who betrays you? I just don't comprehend.
2)To PuppyDogTails: I assume from your post that your're a Christian. If not, I apologize. If you are, isn't it true that no less an authority than Jesus himself said divorce was permitted for marital unfaithfulness?
3)To Little Engine: I realize that the tone of the line you quoted was harsh. If it offended you, I apologize. That was me venting. But let me ask, isn't forgiving someone without demanding that they change just an invitation to more unfaithfulness? One thing my father taught me was that if you let people take advantage of you, you are in for a crappy life. I guarantee that no one will get away with that crap with me,ever, no matter what it costs me. Self-respect is absolutely vital. If you don't respect yourself enough to refuse to tolerate betrayal, you can't ever expect someone else to love you, because you must first respect someone to love them. No one loves a doormat. Pities them, maybe, but not loves.
Thanks, everyone. Please keep the reasons coming. And if I vent now and again, I'm sorry. I'd also like to hear from people closer to my viewpoint, if there are any. I just find it almost impossible to believe that there aren't more people who believe that the first priority of a betrayed spouse should be standing up for themselves.
TnGuy,
I'd like to add my $.02. Until this awful experience happens to you it's easy to say what you would do. I'll be honest I was one of those who always thought if it happened to me I would leave him and not look back. I often said too, that I didn't understand why the betrayed spouse hates the OP so much. It was the WAS that had the commitment to you, not the OP.
Oh, how everything changed when I actually experienced the pain of betrayal. It is like a death. Actually, sometimes I wonder if it isn't harder than death. My mother died and it hurt like no pain I had ever felt until this happened. I knew my mother did not choose to leave me but my husband did.
With infidelity you go through various stages, disbelief, denial, self-blame, pain, grief, anger, etc. I was so upset with my H, but I was more upset with the OW. I wanted to blame her for everything. Why? Because I loved him and couldn't believe the man I had been with for over 20 years and had raised a family with could do this to me. I still have a strong dislike for the OW. I'm not sure I'll ever get over that. You not only are losing the love of your life, you are also losing your security. It rips your family apart as well causes problems with the extended family and friends.
I wish it was as simple as getting angry and getting even, but it's not. Until you experience it you just don't know what you will do. I've seen so many people try to work on their marriage after a betryal. I never understood it then, but sadly, I do now.
The world is not just black and white. Right and wrong.
We are human and errors of judgments and morals happen every minute of every day.
Your cousin had his role in the infidelity - like it or not. Not one single person on this site is blameless for their situation. No one sets out to turn the worlds of our families and friends upside down for pleasure.
Something triggers the chain of events and even if your cousin thought he was the best H in the world - he was not meeting his W needs. To have an affair is definitely not the answer but to me it was a final cry for help.
You can stand up for yourself, by digging to see what went wrong , correcting , improving yourself and not accepting anything but
the best in your future relationship. Your cousins first priority is to his children and to minimize damage and see what can be salvaged. An A does not have to mean the end of a marriage. It can mean the beginning of a better more healthier one.
I think if you have kids, you owe it to them to give it a shot.
I think it's important that during the healing process, you keep your standards high. it's too easy when you're hurting to start accepting treatment and behaviors that you never would have before.
remember, the kids are watching and learning from you.
Thanks for your post, yoyowife. I'm just so unutterably furious that none of my family seems to give a d**n about their blood relative (my cousin) or care about taking the cheater to task for her behavior. And I have been through this situation before, not with my wife, but in a long, committed relationship. She came to me, admitted it, said it only happened once. She was said about her dad dying earlier that year, I was working a lot, the guy seemed to be a good listener. She found out later he was well known for pouncing on vulnerable women. She said please, we've been together 2 1/2yrs, she loves me, let's go to counseling. I told her to shove our 2 1/2 yrs up her hind end (I used a different word) and I didn't want someone I couldn't trust. That was 13 yrs ago. I don't know what's happened to her as she moved away weeks after I kicked her out. Back north somewhere, I think, with her mom's family. I couldn't care less and I pity whatever poor guy ends up with her. Maybe she wouldn't do it again, but if you've done something once, it's becomes easier to repeat the behavior. Anyway, I included that because I wanted everyone to know that I DO know what I'd do because it HAS happened to me.
What would you do if your child did something awful? Would you love them any less? WOuld you cut them from your life? When married, you have committed yourself to someone just as your own flesh and blood......to give up on them isn't an option in some ways......
I noticed 2 posts popped up while I was finishing my last one. I'll be brief.
1)My cousin doesn't have kids, thank God! And I think that "staying together for the kids" is a cop-out.
2)The idea that my cousin was in any way responsible for his wife's behavior is just plain wrong. SHE cheated. HE didn't. Doesn't anyone believe in personal responsibility anymore?
TnGuy....you have found a website with a specific section that focuses upon saving marriages after an affair. Therefore, at this particular site, you are only reading about people who are struggling trying to mend their relationships after infidelity.
However, if you wanted to, you could probably do a search and find a website full of people whose common theme is "I kicked his/her cheating a** out the door the moment I found out...lets all rally together and talk about what a**holes our cheating spouses are!"
So what I am getting at is that there are plenty of people who feel the same way you do and who would never forgive infidelity.
It was interesting to read that you had been cheated on and dumped her butt the moment she told you about it. So you do have some experience with this. However, a 2.5 year girlfriend is not the same as the mother of your children who you've been married to for 10-20 years, as is the case with many on this forum. There truly is no comparison to what you've experienced and what many here have experienced.
I myself cheated during my marriage. I admitted it to my husband, expecting him to leave me. He didn't leave me, we tried to work through it. 12 years later, we still hadn't worked through the issues which caused the infidelity to begin with and we finally divorced after 17 years total.
You could say that me cheating was a choice I made and had nothing to do with our marital issues. And you have every right to view it that way if you choose. But my husband and I knew better, and unfortunately, we never got the outside professional help we needed to be able to really "fix" things.
Now I am in a new relationship and am madly in love. I have no intention or desire to even look in another direction. My heart, body, and mind belong entirely to him...which does not mean we don't have our issues, we really do. But I do finally now have the emotional maturity necessary to be 100% faithful, regardless of other relationship issues. I finally learned all those lessons and moved past them.
However in my current relationship, if he cheated on me it would be over. I know that seems totally crazy coming from someone who has cheated, and I also know I may feel differently if it actually happened (as many people here are saying...they said it would be over too, until it happened to them). But the way I feel right now, given all that I have been through and learned is this: I could forgive him for the act. I could understand how it happens. I could be his friend again eventually. But I could never touch him again. And being that touch and sex are very important in our relationship, it would be over without touching and sex.
Some people have an easier time with this than others (not that it is easy for ANYONE...it is not). But some people can really put things in perspective when it comes to the touching part. Others can't.
As I said in the beginning, you can go find thousands of people who agree with you 100%. This forum is not going to be that place.
I actually do agree with you partially...in that I could not stay with him. But I disagree with you about the fact that it would automatically mean he is a despicable creature who deserves no forgiveness.
In my heart I know that we are all forgiveable, loveable, and good inside. Things happen which cause us to act in ways that are sometimes not loveable, not good, and not forgivable.
But being that none of us may judge the other, I think it would help you to drop your sword against your cousin's wife.
There is logic in what you are saying...that loyalty to your cousin is what is driving your feelings. However, from the outside, it sounds more like hate and spite for your ex-girlfriend that cheated on you, than loyalty to your cousin, that is driving your feelings.
DQ
Boy you are one angry man. This isn't your choice to make. This is your cousins and if you had any sense you would support whatever his decision is, period.
I didn't save my marriage. My ex is still with the skank but I see the damage that he has done to his relationship with my kids. I accept my share of the blame for the problems that led to the affair. I do NOT accept any responsibility for the poor choice he made in having one. We were together for 21 years, married for 19 with 4 great kids together. If you don't think that is worth a second look or the effort of a second chance, I feel sorry for you.
kat
TnGuy--You are very strong in your opinion and that is great. I wasn't offended by your post at all. I always enjoy a sprited discussion.
That you were cheated on by a GF and you're sharing it here shows that you know the pain of betrayal. You don't care what happened to GF, but you do still care about the pain it caused you and that was 13 years ago! You can empathize with your cousin because you still feel the pain of finding out that you were cheated on. It sucks! I know it too. My LTR with a HS sweetheart ended with her revealing she had met someone else and she no longer had feelings for me. I still think about that and it happened twenty years ago.
My W has had three A's and for awhile I had hoped we could work it out. I realized in the last two weeks that ain't gonna happen. But when you get comments from your crying six year old daughter like "Daddy, I think Mommy wants (OM's name) to replace you." It makes it mighty easy to want to overlook the indiscretion of your W for the good of your kids. My S and D want nothing more than for W and I to reconcile. Unless there has been abuse, I don't think any kid wants his parents to get D'd.
When family gets involved in a marital dispute, they only get the side of the story that is painted with their loved one's brush, not that of the in-law that came into the family through M. It is no surprise that everyone wants the guilty spouse branded with a scarlet A and banished from the family. After all that person has caused their loved one pain, and they don't want to see their family member suffer. If family members say things like, "Oh she is such a slut, you deserve better." That doesn't help, because the betrayed spouse still has feelings for this person. Now that person is left feeling worse! "I still love her, but my family thinks she is a slut!"
IMO, it is easy to see it as black and white from the sidelines, but unless you are completly heartless, when you are the one affected, your emotions will fly in the face of logic.
Before I had kids, I never paid much attention to any news story that had to do with a kid getting killed. After I had kids, every story I hear now about some child getting murdered or killed in some other fashion weighs on me. Because my first thought is what the parents are going through, and the second is about what if it were my kid?
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone here who thinks cheating is OK. But you will find plenty of people here who understand why cheating happens and how forgiveness is essential. Whether it is to heal the relationship or to allow the betrayed spouse to move forward.
The simple answer is: There is no simple answer.
TnGuy,
You say it has happened to you.....but in an post in Newcomers you say that your W would never betray you. So my question is how did it happen to you....especially if you were virgins when you married and your W has never betrayed you?
If you are referring to the situation with your cousin then I disagree with you that it has happened to you. It's just not the same. Perhaps your family are being extremely wise by not getting involved and you should listen. I have seen time and time again when a third party to a R gets involved and is full of righteous indignation for the BS....only for them to find the couple where the infidelity took place remain together and the third party, (who they thought were offering support), got left out in the cold.
Saffie--TnGuy had a long term relationship that ended in infidelity.
TnGuy--Copy your post in "Newcomers" thread to a separate thread of your own in the "SSM" forum. You will probably get more replies specific to your problem there.
I think this article by Michelle hits the nail on the head ... actually, everyone who has posted on this thread had said the same thing in one way or another:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1567082&page=1#Post1567082
Thanks everyone. This will be my last post on this thread. I'm sorry if I started a heated argument. I'd like to clear up a few points before I leave.
1) to Saffie: My wife that I'm currently married to took my virginity (and I hers) because the relationship with my unfaithful ex did not have intercourse. We engaged in most other types of sexual behavior, but not intercourse. I will not have intercourse with someone to whom I'm not married. That's part of my personal code of ethics. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clearer in my other post.
2) to Kat 727: I'm expected to support a decision which I disagree with in its fundamentals? Not a chance. This goes back to standing up for oneself; in this case, for my beliefs against someone I think is making a horrible mistake.Is having a backbone out of fashion?
3) to Little Engine: Thank you. You've been the only person here that while disagreeing with me didn't make me feel looked down on for holding to my position.May whatever Power you believe in be with you in your journey.
4) to Dancequeen: Your're right it's not the place for someone with my beliefs, but I've done my best to be civil while feeling as if I'm hated for calling for justice for the betrayed spouse. As to the other point you raise, you may think that I'm in denial, but I truly don't hate my 2.5 ex. To the contrary, I pity her;she carries with her the knowledge of her deed to her grave. Whatever code of ethics she has adopted or will adopt, she will always remember violating the most important vow ever. Rest assured that I will not ever carry such a memory. I will gladly die before I dishonor myself in such a way. As my dad (a Marine) taught me:"Death before dishonor."
Goodbye all. Thanks again, Little Engine.
You are supporting your cousin and whatever choice he sees fit to make. You are entitled to your opinion but I think if you want to stay close to your cousin you won't share your opinion and give nothing but support to him.
I am sorry you didn't get the answer you wanted to find here but this is a site where the members are trying to save their marriages despite the issues. Food for thought.
kat
If your cousin chooses to forgive and make a go of his marraige, be careful that you are not the casulty ! With your attitude and big opinions and I was your cousins wife, I would be keeping a BIG distance between us and you.
I think as you get older you realize everyone makes mistakes. We're all human. You hopefully get less judgemental and more tolerant. Some of us are Christians and yeah, those vows we said meant something. Even though it's maybe ok according to the Bible to get divorced, doesn't mean that's the only option. Yeah, kids are important, I have 2 special needs kids and when you have them you realize you would do just about anything for them. I think some of it is unconditional love. But yeah, I understand people that have their spouse have an A and can't get over it, and want to divorce. Each person has to make their own choices in life. Karen
2)To PuppyDogTails: I assume from your post that your're a Christian. If not, I apologize. If you are, isn't it true that no less an authority than Jesus himself said divorce was permitted for marital unfaithfulness?
TnGuy,
Yes, I am a Christian. It was my strong faith in God that helpled me get thru my ordeal last summer.
To answer your question, yes, Jesus Himself and even my conservative Catholic Church says that it's permissable to divorce on the grounds of adultery. So if that's what you want to do, you're perfectly free to do so, with no condemnation from me, nor from God as I understand Him.
However, I believe your original post was more about
"how can one FORGIVE???" than it was "Is it
permissable to divorce?" And on THAT subject, that same Authority commanded us to do so.
"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do" is what He said as he hung, crucified and dying, on the cross. I figure if He can forgive THAT, I can forgive my wife for a far lesser transgression.
My wife did ask me -- twice -- once during her affair, and once when she ended it: "Why ARE you still here? Why are you fighting for me, after what I've done?" I told her the following reasons:
1. I took my vow before God very seriously on our wedding day, and that it was "for better or for worse," not "for better or even better still."
2. That I still loved her.
3. That I wanted to demonstrate for our children what you do when faced with adversity -- you don't just cut and run.
4. That I personally wanted to know that I did everything I could to save my marriage and keep our family intact, and that I didn't want to go to my death bed someday with horrible regrets.
5. That I would hope if the situation were reversed -- and say I had a drug or an alcohol or a gambling addiction -- that she would do the same thing and forgive me, and fight for me until I got my mind right and was free of my addiction.
It really helped me to think of infidelity as an addiciton, which I firmly believe it is. It's a physiological fact,
that even shows up on CAT scans of the brain -- the "love" chemicals that awash the wayward mind. Just Google "PEA infidelity addiction" and do the research. It's the same pernicious pull that led an otherwise sane, intelligent woman astronaut to drive across country WEARING AN ADULT DIAPER, rather than stop for bathroom breaks, to go see her man and avenge him with his other woman.
I hope that answers.
Peace,
Puppy
TnGuy...if you think by pitying your ex gf that means you don't hate her, then you are just confusing these two things. Your form of pitying her is to view her in discust. And holding someone in contempt and discust are basically the ingredients for hate.
This is normal and natural after someone hurts you.
However...if you think your feelings on this topic aren't clouded by what that girl did to you, then you are not very in touch with yourself.
Regardless, we are all entitled to our opinions and yours is VERY CLEAR. You hate cheaters - so okee dokee! Feel free to do so.
DQ
I feel compelled to weigh in here (moderator, please bear with me... I know that this is not the forum for a religious discussion... but I'm going somewhere with this).
I agree with everything puppydogtails said, with just one exception: Our Catholic church does not recognize civil divorce, without regard to adultery. Note the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:9, part of which are unique to the New American Bible (Catholic version):
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.
All bibles refer to "adultery" or "immorality," yet the NAB states that divorce is permitted only of the marriage was not "lawful."
And adultery is not grounds for an annulment. So as a Catholic, if my wife were to proceed with and obtain a divorce from me, I would not be permitted to marry again (we are not eligible for annulment...I checked).
OK, enough of that, as that is not the reason for my post. I am the victim of a cheating spouse (and a one-time frequent poster on these boards under a different name). I found strength in reminding myself that, unless I forgave my wife, I would not receive forgiveness from God for any of my sins.
From Sirach 27:30 - 28:5
Wrath and anger are hateful things, yet the sinner hugs them tight.
The vengeful will suffer the LORD'S vengeance, for he remembers their sins in detail.
Forgive your neighbor's injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.
Should a man nourish anger against his fellows and expect healing from the LORD?
Should a man refuse mercy to his fellows, yet seek pardon for his own sins?
If he who is but flesh cherishes wrath, who will forgive his sins?
Also, note Matthew 18:21 - 35
Then Peter approaching asked him, "Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.
That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.
Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.
At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.'
Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan.
When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt.
Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair.
His master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?'
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.
So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."
The bottom line: Forgiveness is not an option.
forgiving is actually pretty easy as time goes by.
The bottom line: Forgiveness is not an option.
livinginlimbo,
I believe that with all of me.... There is NO choice... Yet, as a Christian, I believe one can still divorce in the case of adultery....
That is what happened in my previous M..... I KNOW I was NOT the perfect H..... I can honestly say I will face Him some day with a clear conscience knowing I did everything to save my M.....
NMD
One thing I've learned as the years go on (and on and on)....never say never. You may not be able to imagine your ability to forgive.
Forgiveness is NOT saying....oh, it's ok.
It's saying...you no longer need to pay for it. I do not hold you accountable for that any longer. I am letting it go.
*****
Annulment eligibility...you never know about that until you actually go through the process. Adultery is not grounds. My exhusband was able to obtain an annulment. I would never have thought we had grounds. But the church did not agree. I was surprised. (I was divorced pre-DB .... came here 2 relationships later)
thanks
why..or for what?
lol, I dunno, I was just in the forgiving mood