Good morning all...this is my first post. Those of you who are Keith Urban fans will recognize my title which pays some service to my current situation. Here is the my sich:
M:34
W:33
S:8
D:3
S:18mos
I am an Army officer currently serving in Afghanistan. Two months prior to deploying my wife lost her father in a tragic truck accident. If I have read Michelle's book right (I owe myself a second read), she meets the following criteria: Depressed, WAW, EA possible PA but unconfirmed.
Things had been going great up until about a month ago. I have submitted my resignation paperwork, after much pleading (problem #1)from W. I have enjoyed my time in the service but the Army I joined is not the Army of today and my family is seriously at risk. The Army used to make fun of families saying, "If the Army wanted you to have a family they would have issued you one", our leaders pay lip service to the family but mission comes first and our missions completely leave families in the cold because we have to leave. My wife sent me a letter of concern (not dear jon because she is still around) basically saying that I needed to make my decision taking into consideration that she may not be in my life. WTF?? No idea things had gotten this way. Turns out that she has been talking to many new friends she met online and they all encouraged her not to say how she was feeling. The only reason why she told me was that I submitted my paperwork partially for her, and she wanted me to be sure of my motives.
Needless to say I was severely irate, blindsided and all the other appropriate emotions you can imagine. I had come home for my midtour about 4 weeks prior to the letter and while I noticed a difference in her actions/attitude I attributed this to the grief over her loss.
Skip forward 4 weeks from the letter and I have returned to the US to attend some conferences. I did not know about the EA/possible PA until now. Ha ha...blindsided yet again. She has told everyone that she does not want us discussing her when she is not around. I tried to respect this until my SIL was able to tell me all about Divorce Remedy and what my W was doing.
My biggest problem is that this OM jackass has moved in to fill the emotional void I could not fill due to my deployment. Sadly, I will not return for good for another 3 months, I am scared that a PA will be solidified in my absence (projecting yes but how can't I) and things will be further toward D for her.
My S,D,S are also suffering immensely. My W anger over her losing her father and me has caused to not want to be "a wife, a mother". Thankfully my MIL, SIL and BIL are all scratching their heads like me.
My W is not out of reach. She and I have had time to be alone while I have been around, however, she has this dead look in her eyes as though she has given up.
I am against a wall due to this damn deployment and am trying not to grasp. I thank God for my SIL who succesfully employed the techniques after her H had a PA. They have come through their situation and I pray for the same resolution.
Reading online helps to know that I am not alone, however, I wake up in the middle of the night almost physically ill because of the sich. This sucks!! I want more than anything to hold her and be there for her because she needs me but I know that I cannot give her that right now. Kids are my #1 priority right now and I am getting lots of support from both families since I am gone. When I get out, I will move to where my kids and wife are to be close to them and be very much involved in my kids lives, just wish I did not have to rekindle my marriage while trying to make up for being gone.
Whew!!! That was the second time I typed this. The first time I felt too immature to post. Now having read Michelle's book I feel more able to express what is going on and able to interact with all advice...please help.
Mcol
Mcol.. first I would like to thank you for your service our country. Without folks like you, the US wouldnt be the Land of the Free.
I would focus on making each interaction with your W a positive one. Obviously you cant be there in person so you will have to make each phone call, each email, each text message as positive as possible.
Continue to be upbeat when you do have the chance to speak to her. She is obviously depressed and is confused as to how to get over her pain. Be her rock, her confidant.
Sorry I couldnt be of more help.
I just wanted to say that I can feel a bit of what you are feeling. My H is in the AF and is actually in Korea for his year. We have 3 little boys and I'm here w/ them by myself.
Anyway, my sitch was my H dropped the bomb prior to his leaving. We were only "ok" for about a month before he left.
I honestly think the only thing you can do is be completely positive when you do talk to her at all. I also may suggest writing HER a letter telling her how much you love her (not begging), but get it all out there -- how you feel about her, that you want to work your M out, etc. Obviously, don't let it be a pleading letter, but just a letter so she knows where you stand on everything. I know it sucks you are kind of in limbo for the time being and can't even attempt to "work" on things or DB in person.
As for the A, what's going to happen is going to happen. Hopefully once you get home, things will change and, once you start DB'ing, she'll figure out the A was just b/c she was lonely or something along those lines (not that that excuses it). My H actually cheated on me numerous times while he was deployed.
Also, you have the relatives in your court and hopefully they will have some influence on her as well.
You know what is funny is that I draw strength from others but every time I talk to W I feel the energy being sucked out of me and start to slip into that worrisome abyss again. Being new to the DB game I am sure I will adjust. Thanks for the response.
My H never moved out, as he wanted to be w/ the boys until he left for his deployment. I would be very strong once he left the house in the a.m. and then @ work b/c I could just get so pi$$ed off at him for what he was doing. However, then when I would leave work each afternoon, I would literally get sick to my stomach, b/c I never knew what to expect when I got home and also knew I had to act "as if" I was totally fine w/ all of this all evening w/ him there at home. It sucks, I know!
Let me say this, BE THE MAN SHE WILL WANT TO STAY WITH. Be the man that she would not want to leave. That would include being very strong, confident, in control.
Try to figure out where things went wrong and what you may have been doing/not doing that was not good for the M. I did a lot of soul searching and changed a lot of things. I think H finally realized my changes were for real. I stood by him the whole time. I never got angry and yelled & screamed which was probably a 180 for me
Try to figure out where things went wrong and what you may have been doing/not doing that was not good for the M. I did a lot of soul searching and changed a lot of things. [/quote]
This has been one of the hardest parts because I know there are things that I have done wrong. One of my more notorious no see-ums is always telling her I would be home by a certain time and then busting that. I was always still working or on my way home. She got calloused and just kept saying whatever, we'll see you when you get here. I would try to call enroute but I think by then it was just one of those things.
Soul searching is painful but certainly a must. More than anything I hope you are right, that by me coming home from deployment things will get better, I will still be partially dislocated from them, she has moved home and will stay there. That is where I am moving too once I am out, job is still up in the air and really too early to find.
Well, I truly hope your getting out is what YOU want too. I would hope that you don't do it just b/c you think that may make her happy and end up resenting her for it whether you end up working out your M or not. (By the way, my H is enlisted, I was actually in for awhile, but my dad was an officer, so I've seen it all from all different perspectives)
One thing you will have to do FOR YOU is accept your shortcomings (and I'm sure you had more than the not getting home on time) and FORGIVE YOURSELF. You cannot live having regrets about the things that you could have or should have done differently. You need to do that immediately and get on w/ the rest of the *stuff* you will have to deal with. You can't change the past, but you can make changes for the future.
Hey MC...I am active air force....my sitch....got D'd a little over a year ago....I was married for 15+ years. I have a S16 and D14...I know that "Military didn't issue...." line also.
From what I've read of your sitch....yeah it blows goats that's for sre. The best thing you can do right now....or when you are back home (I am deployed right now and won't be back till Jan) is be the better catch....time to make up for lost ground...new wardrobe...cologne (go online and figure out what is the newest smell that women like), look for clothes...no matter how much you say "I would never wear that..." Guess what? Try it....you may like the new you....and I know about the hair thing so i won't even go there. The thing is, there is a lot you can do to be the better of the two. The first thing though is....you have to start with you. It doesn't happen overnight and she WILL notice. Women notice EVERYTHING!!!! So...game plan? Write down what you wear...look up online when you can...what is new out there and start thinking new stuff....you nee to get out of the rut of what YOU like.....because change is always good.....if for the right reason. Next....don't go with all the "nice" stuff you did in the past....this is old news to her......time to be creative. Look online....there is a sh!tload of ideas out there that cost little info anything to get the message across. And finally, deployments suck! Plain and simple....the spouses will NEVER understand....BUT I do know one thing...I tell my guys this all the time.....DO NOT piss and complain about how bad it is over where you are....I don't have to tell you that...I am positive you know this....but they are under a HUGE amount of strees when we are gone. The VERY best thing to do is just talk and listen about how THEY are doing....piss on us. They can't do a damn thing for us. It makes them WANT to disconnect with us because of all the complaining.
Last thing....I'm watching your scoop....I'm here...you have questions??? I've been there and done that....fire away because I have 28 days till I am out of this sh!thole!
TSgt
USAF
15+ years
FA and all,
Quick update...I have had some time to spend in the US over the last two weeks. Specifically the weekends I have in the same area as W and S,D,S. I am so thankful to get the time but I go through peaks and valleys while here. When I see W, she hugs me (I hug back) when she arrives and when she leaves...baby steps?? However, then I hear that she has seen an attorney and all the other stuff in talking to IL. Confusing as hell. I just don't want to get served overseas, I do not honestly believe that I could feel any worse than I felt when I got her original letter of concern but then again I am not looking for an opportunity to outdo that feeling.
FA..thanks a million...great advice. I was in DC and my brother, who is very trendy, helped me shop. I felt like an idiot, 12 years in the military gives you a sweet set of blinders. What do you mean cardigans are not in style anymore??? Ha ha! As I wrestled with no sleep last night (an all too frequent occurence lately) I started thinking about my 180 and FA I will definetly be looking to spice up my warddrobe...Lord knows that the W has and she looks good.
I think we are going to get together tonight, my main goals is to not talk about R, military or kids....this should be interesting....anyone know any good conversation lines?? LOL.
More to follow tomorrow, although I feel it will more of the same.
FA stay safe over there...wish I could trade my three months for your 25 days...thanks for what you are doing over there.
In my and other military wive's defense, some of us do understand. That's why I haven't bitched & moaned the entire time H has been deployed, even though I am here, working full-time and taking care of everything, including our 3 boys under the age of 7.
AND I haven't brought up our sitch AT ALL -- H was trying to D me about a year ago and we were "ok" for about a month before he left. He cheated, etc., etc., and I have not brought that up time & again either. I have been nothing but supportive of him.
{In my and other military wive's defense, some of us do understand. }
Redhead,
I would say that about 10% have situations in there marriage where something unfortunate happens. These deployments are not easy for anyone involved. My heart goes out to anyone who is experiencing difficulties. I just know that while things were not paradise with us, my perception was that the issue was not so bad. My frustration comes from those who tell family members not to tell their spouses what is going on back home. We worry anyway about our families. At least if the spouse is being keeping their service member informed, bombs like mine may not happen.
Who knows, I just know that I am done making my family pay the price for my decisions in the Army.
Hope you all are doing ok.
Yo, mcol. I'm not in the military, as you know, so perhaps I don't have the "benefit" of experience behind me when I write. But I think we need to gain a little focus here.
As tough as this deployment has been on your W and your children, and as tough as it is on you, and on *every* military family who has had to face it, it gives absolutely *no* justification for a W to walk away from you ... and *certainly* not to have an A. Also, I will add: If *you* and your career were the problem, why is it just *now* that she's wanting to leave? Is it irony that she's met OM? No, indeed. The deployment was a catalyst to get her into Internet chat rooms. But the *real* problems in your M, I'd be willing to bet, didn't begin until she had commenced this relationship. True?
To that end, we cannot blame solely the military, or use it as a crutch or an excuse or even really a reason that your M is falling apart. *Many* Ms, as you've already explained, make it through deployment with no apparent problems.
A couple questions you may want to address for those of us on the boards (I'm a returning member here ... got back together with my H two years ago, and things have been beautiful since...): I don't think I've seen it addressed how long you and your W have been married. And if you were in the military *before* or *after* she met you. Can you elaborate on that a tad?
And now that *you* have taken responsibility for your role in this sitch, what responsibility belongs to *her*? And, now that you've read DR and can apply some of the principles, what are some of the specific steps you're taking to save your M? How has each "step" panned out so far?
Thinking of you ... and *really* wish you weren't here ...
Hi Flygirl and all
Great questions...W and I have been married for 8 years. I was in the military for 5 years before I met her so I had time to adjust to the culture of the service. Her indoctrination was leave your family, life and hometown to follow me first to Missouri then to Germany for three years. Thankfully, the last four years we have been in NC but we have still be over two hours away. Her family all seems to not know how to handle W and how she has changed since her dad died. It is pretty tragic actually and a lot of counseling is required.
Just to give you all a quick update. We had dinner last night and while I did not talk about R, I did talk about the kids, briefly, family and some parts of my job. However, as the evening went on it was clear that she was kind of going through the motions. She was tired from 12 hours at work with little or no activity. She has started having some physical issues which are only exasperated by everything going on in our lives.
I am so thankful to be close to her family. While I have visited I am staying with M-I-L which has been a blessing. I am trying to stay upbeat and have to continually tell myself that I should not change who I am just because my emotional pain factor peaks each time I see her. I want to run to her and hold her, telling her it will be ok but I know she will not reciprocate thus making things that much harder.
With my ultimate resignation and move when I get home this will be the hardest move yet. The safety net will be gone and everything will be new. Not sure if she will move in with me when I get my house, although, I am planning for it. Not sure what kind of financial changes will be required in order to cover all requirements. I am hoping to find a house that is relatively close to in laws in order to have a social network until I start making some friends.
AAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!! I feel like I am previewing the next year of my life and I see problems yet have no power to change the things that are jacked up. Oh well, new wardrobe, some new smell goods and a new social network may provide the needed increase and change that I will need to continue moving forward through this thing.
Oh yeah,
I forgot, we spent most of the morning together, took S,D,S to the playground which was sort of cool but she ended up sitting on the park bench messing around with her blackberry, which means likely emailing or calling someone???
I am still determining what extent this EA manifested as W has always had male friends although she has not used them instead of me to get through tough times in her life.
I resist daily knowing what she is doing online when I could likely find her group and tap in but that would require some serious snooping. I go from wondering if this guy is like her other male friend whom I am actually good friends with. I suppose it would be different if I knew this jackass as opposed to finding out from others that she watched a movie with him a couple of weeks ago and has been sacrificing time with S,D,S to spend time with him??!!?? That is BS.
Her anger showed a little today with S-8 and my two nieces. Although their nagging and bickering can make a sane person upset, W had a flare up and quickly got stuff back in check.
Hope all is well and everyone is having a good weekend. I head back overseas tomorrow so my posts may be labored until I get my stuff setup in Afghanistan.
Hope all is well and everyone is having a good weekend. I head back overseas tomorrow so my posts may be labored until I get my stuff setup in Afghanistan.
Hey mcol,
Stay safe and keep your head down. If you have a digital ya got ta send me some pics.
Oh ya and don't drink the water....no wait that's Mexico...
Did ya se that movie with Larry the cable guy I forgot what it was called. They were in the national guards and were deployed to Afghanistan, by got dropped in Mexico and they thought they were in Afghanistan,??
Husband
husband,
I have been there for a while so I will certainly oblige that request. I will shoot you an email with one picture I have already.
All the best
husband,
I have been there for a while so I will certainly oblige that request. I will shoot you an email with one picture I have already.
All the best
husband,
I have been there for a while so I will certainly oblige that request. I will shoot you an email with one picture I have already.
All the best
More later ... but probably not until you're in the skies.
Godspeed, bro.
Ok...lets try this again. I had a good half page ready to post but something happened with my airport connection...naturally I lost it.
I am in Germany right now, on the way back to "the Stan" as I like to call it. I had breakfast with the family yesterday prior to driving down to Atlanta for my flight. I tried to remain upbeat and consider the fact that I only have three more months away and hope that while I am gone my W will do some serious soul searching to ensure that she wants to call it quits. I intend to stay upbeat and try not to get too defeated. As most of you, I bounce back and forth between insanity and happines. I want more than anything to wake up from this vicious dream, wipe the sweat from my forehead, roll over and cuddle with my wife. Although, sitting across the table from her and looking in her eyes, the dream is reality and sadly cuddling is a long way from here. Please God give me strength.
Ok..here is my question. Is anyone else accutely aware of the physical side of your relationships. I guess my mind, in the absence, of emotional stability has turned to a part of our relationship which I thought was pretty good. My fantasies of her have grown exponentially and are very acute. I treasure them but I am quickly brought down by the reality of what I am stuck in. What do you guys think?
I plan to be one of the few that posts from three separate continents in 48 hours (North America, Europe and Asia). Hopefully, the internet in my office will support this website as I need you guys a ton.
Ok, maybe I didn't *get* your question b/c it's too early in the a.m., but I don't quite know what you are asking about the physical side of the R. How about trying to re-word that for me?
I honestly know how much it sucks being away -- for quite awhile there, I thought we would either be going through a D while H was deployed or I was going to just have to suck it up & *stand* until he got home and I was hoping that he would have figured out what he was missing by being gone. Luckily, it didn't work out that way, however, him being gone has given him a pretty good perspective of what he was *trying* to throw away last year.
I think you need to just keep up the PMA, as hokey as that sounds. You need to realize that, besides being upbeat when you get the chance to talk to her on the phone, etc., there really isn't a lot you are going to be able to accomplish until you get home. Also, when you do get home, that is going to be a stressful time and your sitch just adds to it.
Just keep working on you -- I honestly think the best thing for you to do is, when you do talk to her or email her or whatever, just act "as if" nothing is going on as far as her wanting a D. Just act like everything is fine. OR you could, as soon as you get back to "the Stan" send her that email telling her how much you love her and want to work things out when you get home and then go from there.
Heh. Good to know you're makin' it safely across the world.
I'm inclined to agree with RedHeadWife's words of wisdom -- just try your best to "act as if" everything's moving along smoothly ... or at least that you're not afraid of getting served.
I would not, however, send your W a love letter. You are obviously a very loving person. Well, we see that as loving. She, on the other hand, sees it as smothering right now. A letter from you is nothing more than a reminder of exactly what she's trying to escape. It's the last thing, IMHO, you need to do.
As far as the physical question, I think that's mostly your mind playin' tricks on you right now. I can't per se speak to it because when my H left, I was preggo, and the hormones were kickin' anyway. Sooooo, it'd prolly be smart if I left that question alone.
Touch base when you can. I sure hope you're able to access the site from the Stan...
...actually, strike the whole "you-need-to-do" stuff; I shouldn't be giving advice ... only
suggestions. I shoulda said, "If it were me, I would not send her a letter."
Greetings from Kuwait!!! Now if I can just post from The Stan then things will be rocking. I honestly gave up sleep (thank you jet lag) to get here and check the responses out.
Redhead...for more clarification/I think Flygirl has it right. I have been dwelling on the physical (sexual) side of my R way more than usual. I think that this is my mind trying to grasp any part of my M that I thought was good prior to the letter.
Being back this way I am starting experience the peaks and valleys again. This site truly is a blessing as it helps me to stay sane and not grasp when that is all I want to do. I just want to be able to hold her ya'll. A good melting embrace to be more specific. As if this would change things....NOT!!
Most of the doubts I have about us are a mix of what next for my professional life as well as my personal life. I realize that I am going to be in the same geographic area as my W and hope that she and I are sharing the same house. I would be lying if I said part of me has not thought about how in the world I will start dating again if the big D happens. However, my PMA or traces of it squash those thoughts pretty quickly.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen 2008 will be a very interesting year for me and my family. Without a doubt some of the cheeseless tunnels will be removed (military, uniform etc) but certainly others will be gained or possibly maintained (commuting, slaving for the man etc).
I must admit that I am so squeamish to drop contact. I just had a nightmare about an empty house (no furniture), no car and the like. I would never think my W would do that, but I have been surprised by a lot of things over the last two months.
Oh joy of my days...accountability formations at 0630 and 2030...the pain machine is back.
Thanks for being there everyone. I should have time for more posting later but for now...I am off to be told..."hurry up and wait" is that a parallel for my sitch or what?
Mcol,
Take care of yourself in Kuwait. How long will you be deployed there?
Hurry up and wait...oh yeah.
Take care!!!
Hey mcol,
My E-mail Is: Manuelm1@comcast.net
H
Yoyo,
I will only be here for a couple of days while I wait for a flight to Afghanistan. That is where the hurry up and wait happens. We have to rush around like headless chickens only to be told to come back in 12 hours. It is very frustrating because you are in total limbo and the air force is controlling your future.
Husband. Will send as soon as I get back to my computer at work.
I am preaching to the choir when I say that this whole thing sucks and I wish more than anything I could see the future. But I am reminded of something one of my old pastors used to say...God will only give you enough light for the next step. Once you have used the light he has given you then you will get just enough for the next step. Everyone keep your heads up as we are all inspiration to each other for the next step. Many times the path is not lit until we actually move our foot.
I forgot to add a couple of things about my sitch:
1) W has an addictive personality that is a family trait. Her dad was tied to online poker (thankfully it was play money). She has alchoholism that runs through her family (thankfully she does not drink) and basically anything that she wants to get involved in she does it non-stop and is almost obsessive about. She turned to her online chat room after she graduated from school and a major void was left. I was gone and she got bored. This is how she met a whole bunch of new friends to include suspected OM.
2) When she got her job, she established her own bank account and I had been having a big duh because I did not understand how she had these new screen names until....***DUH*** I realized that she has started her own AOL account. I know I am snooping but I guess when the sh*t hits the fan and you grasp you look for anything to hold on to.
3) I am scared to not talk to her...even though I am smothering. She does not know that I know about OM and I am afraid that she will feel as though I do not want anything to do with her and this will push her more toward filing. Common DB logic is that she was going to do this anyway no matter what I do but even more so if I smother her. I guess I am just scared that my physical absence landed her in the EA/PA?? she is in now. What will no contact do? Can it get worse??
4) Why does she get to do this to me? I should not have to deal with this sh*t while I am overseas and powerless to knock the OM out for going after my woman.
5) Have I mentioned that my W was involved in a PA with a married man before I met her? Married man's wife called her to confront and she told her that if the W could have kept her man satisfied then she would never have met him...prophetic? It was shortly after that she broke up with the guy. As I understand it the married man and his wife are still together...wonder if she was DB?
Whaddup, dawg?!? Kuwait, eh? Hmmm. Sounds like a blast.
1.) Your W's addictive personality, combined with an online chatroom, added to your physical absence, is of course a potentially explosive sitch. No doubt about it. But your physical absence is *not* the cause of this madness. It may have provided the window of opportunity, but it wasn't the cause. The cause, I'd bet, is her insecurity. You've always been around to fill a void. In short, you were her "escape" mechanism. *You* and your children were her "addicition." When you left, in addition to grieving the death of her father -- and obviously not very well -- she needed someone/a group of people to fill the void. Not only did she land that, she "accidentally" picked up a guy that likes her ... *really* likes her, apparently. And that's fulfilling her insecurity problems...
It's a vicious cycle that didn't begin with you ... and won't end with you. She has to figure that out herself.
2.) Interesting. Her own AOL account, huh? The only thing that makes sense is that she's wanting to keep her online activities a secret from you. Whether you continue to "snoop" or not is up to you. It can indeed give you some great "ammunition," but the problem is -- and you can well relate to this -- the only time you need ammunition is when you're trying to kill or hurt something. Ponder that for a minute.
The better question re: snooping is: What is it doing to *you*? If you can handle it, fine. But if it's tearing you apart -- and if you're doing it merely for your "self-satisfaction" and not to gather information with which to confront your W -- then you may want to think twice about snooping.
I snooped on my H, so don't think that I'm above it. But I remember how badly the truth hurt. Sometimes it's needed. But once you've attained what you need, really think about the point of it.
3.) Rule of thumb in a sitch such as yours is this: Figure out what you *want* to do and say. Then do the opposite. Your knowledge of the circumstances -- or her knowledge of your knowledge, if that makes sense -- will not make or break the circumstances. *She* will do that. What you can do in the meantime is deal with this yourself -- work on you -- and you're doing that. Additionally, you can understand that anything you do or say to your W, as it relates to your M, *is* going to cause a reaction from her. What kind of reaction do you want? Tailor your actions and conversations with her accordingly. No contact with your W, contrary to how you're feeling, is *not* going to make the sitch worse.
You're so right: It's all "hurry up and wait." But the waiting part for you is the "space" part for her. It's giving her the opportunity to find out if the grass is truly greener on the other side. And it's the time when all the lovey-dovey hormones that she has developed for her online friends/OM will slowly die away. The more space you give her, the quicker her fantasy life will resolve itself, because no one keeps those butterflies forever, my friend. They "died" in your M when your infatuation with one another died and love took over. And they'll die in this relationship, too. And I, for one, do not believe that love will take over.
She's been married to you for 8 years. You're no longer per se filling her need for an addiction. You and the children are just "there," having become more of a habit than an addiction, and your family life has kept her too busy to need something to be addicted to. But now that you're not around, she's missing the feeling that she gets being addicted to something. That's why she's looking elsewhere. My hope is that she can break her addiction. And I think she will ... in time. Grant her that.
Contrary to the feelings she has developed for you, and the family you two have created over 8 years, OM is *definitely* and *totally* an escape for her. There are no responsibilities. He makes her forget about the pain of her father dying because her father didn't know him ... (and, I'd bet wouldn't have *wanted* to). When she looks at him, she doesn't see her children or her past or the "shackles" of family life and responsibility. She sees fresh and new. An escape.
4.) It's not fair. Plain and simple. You should not have to deal with this, period. Much less while you're overseas.
5.) I don't think it's a matter of you not keeping her satisfied. I think she's got some serious issues going on that have absolutely nothing to do with you. She's working through them, albeit in a very unhealthy way. And that leaves you in a position to work on *you* as much as possible. If/When the two of you are back together, I know from experience, your relationship will be all the better for it.
Keep your chin up. It was good to awake to an update from you today...
Here's my take on your sitch, hon -
- wife's father dies tragically
- you leave for Afghanistan
- depressed wife fears another "abandonment" - you could die over there
- wife pushes you away because it seems less painful to push you away now than to risk losing you tragically later
- wife finds comfort online with OM
- wife has inherited addictive tendencies = vulnerable to the "dopamine high" of infatuation, similar brain chemistry to compulsive gambling, internet addiction, etc.
- wife has low moral character: not necessarily because she was dumb enough to get involved with her married lover, but she told his wife it was HER fault - and is shameless enough to admit that to YOU later? Geez - seems like something one would be ashamed of admitting to one's new boyfriend/husband. (Wasn't that a big red flag????)
Anyway - in this setting, I make the following recommendations:
- quit pursuing, but don't "go dark". Part of the problem here in the first place was your absence. Make frequent contact with the kids, be an exemplary father, make your contacts with her upbeat and positive. Act As If you know nothing about the affair. Don't engage in R talks. Try to postpone any divorce talks until you get back home. Read up on validating - it's a great te
chnique.
- think about her "love languages" and try to speak them. Of the following, which are the two ways she's been most likely to "hear" your love in the past (which got the most positive reactions)?
- gifts
- words of affirmation (compliments, love letters, etc)
- physical touch (not sex, but holding hands, touching, snuggling)
- quality time (spending time together, giving her your full attention, frequent contact)
- acts of service (doing things for her, like washing her car, etc.)
Also - be careful about those in-laws. I know they're supportive, and SIL pointed you here. That's great - but in the long run, MIL will not sacrifice her R with her D for you. And things you say to them will leak back to W. And W will resent you for "turning her family against her". See it here all the time.
Take care of yourself over there. Make plans for your civilian future; dream big. Focus on your kids and on improving yourself.
This OM is a loser. With any luck, he'll have shown his true colors before you get back. After all, what kind of man pursues a married woman with three kids whose H is deployed? Either:
- a guy who just wants to get laid and preys on lonely women; or
- a guy with the same dopamine addiction issues as your wife; or
- a loser who can't get a woman any other way and so is willing to take on one with three kids and a H; or
- a loser who has to make himself feel like a "big man" by "rescuing" her
He'll never compare to you in the long run. Stay` strong. Be the superior man.
Ellie
kml and flylady...
thanks very much for your help, support, hugs and other advice. Being new to the DB process I am sure you have seen a lot of this stuff before and I appreciate you taking me by the hand through the steps to rekindling my M.
Flylady...you are right on about the relationship losing its addictive status and turning habitual. I think kml caveats your observations very well with the recommendation on the love language recognition.
kml you make a very good point about me dying. W has said often that she cannot see a future for us as I am in this line of work. Hoping that my change in careers helps that. Bottom line up front (BLUF), I think she feels put behind my career. Truthfully, she is right to a certain extent.
Not sure if W is happy about being hoodwinked into an affair but when other W called and attacked her the fight or flight kicked in. I did not really have feelings on it one way or the other back then because I did not know what I know now. However, I still believe that is the past and truly believe that she was not looking to get into a relationship with a married man. I do know that my W broke that relationship off shortly after she found out he was M.
Yes, I have not gone dark but I am also not spending a ton of time on the phone either. More than anything it is just telling her that I hope she is doing ok and checking to ensure she is ok financially which I know she is since she gets paid the weeks I don't.
Flylady correctly points out that she is testing the waters with the OM loser/manwhore/terd and I do hope that she realizes that my love and our relationship is not worth that jacka$$
I have successfully done it. I am now posting from Afghanistan and I am so thankful that I have my own laptop which I will use in my room to continue posting.
Thanks again friends...chat soon.
Also - be careful about those in-laws ... things you say to them will leak back to W
Hmmmm. Prolly not so much.
The only other thing on which I disagree with Ellie is:
wife has low moral character: not necessarily because she was dumb enough to get involved with her married lover, but she told his wife it was HER fault - and is shameless enough to admit that to YOU later? Geez - seems like something one would be ashamed of admitting to one's new boyfriend/husband. (Wasn't that a big red flag????)
I can see how someone might reach such a conclusion. But void of some pertinent details, I think we'd be making a pretty broad assumption by saying your W has low moral character.
For instance, did your W know the man was married when she was in a R with him and was later confronted by his W? Many of us on this board know all-too-well how difficult it can be to just "smell out" our spouses' As. If your W didn't know the man was M, the phone call from his W was prolly one heck of a surprise to your W. And as hurtful as it is -- do I dare say it? -- what your W said has some truth to it. My H left me, and I don't take responsibility for that; but it's true that I should have been a better wife to him pre-bomb. And no one knows whether that would have made a difference in his leaving. But it could have.
Additionally, some would argue that the reason your W told *you* this part of her life is basically because in some Ms, spouses share everything, including details (even shameful ones) about their past ... basically just to get everything on the table. I won't judge whether that's good or bad, right or wrong. It's simply an individual choice. I appreciate you making yourself vulnerable and sharing it here, because it gives us some insight into your sitch.
Now, if your W *knew* that Dude was married and was in a R with him anyway and then had the kahoonas to say such things to that man's wife (and later to you), then, yeah, maybe we could debate the "low moral character" thing.
Why does all that matter?: For someone to say your W has low moral character, especially when you're new here and to your sitch and very vulnerable, is kinda a little harsh, methinks. It's also drawing a conclusion about a person's character based on one sitch for which we have very few details. Also, to say your W has low moral character is not only an insult to your W. It's an insult to you, too, because it suggests that you have a poor sense of judgment; after all, you chose her as your W, and have kept her as such, for 8 years.
All that being said, I think Ellie makes fine points on everything else (all the stuff that really matters). She gives you a lot of very valuable info. to ponder and brings with it a lot of experience and knowledge. Ellie helped me, too, when I was here...
How are things today (whichever day it is in your necka the woods)?
Oops. Just saw that you had replied before I posted.
...Yay! You made it over and are still posting!! Woo-hoo!
So...here we go...I can get online to post at work which is great. I am also going to get the internet in my room so I can read more which will ultimately be my salvation through this whole crazy thing.
Looking forward to hearing and chatting with you guys.
Hey mcol,
saying glad you made it just don't sound right. Wish you were here is more like it. but take care buddy. try not to let things distract you from your present sitch location. Take care of yourself over there.
Then when you get back worry about this place.
Husband
H,
Pics sent. Yeah I know its pretty jacked up when you look forward to getting to Afghanistan. I think I bounce back and forth on mindsets. Sometimes I am anxious to get here so I can get the time done and other times I am in the depths of despair because I miss my family pretty bad. Right now things are not too bad but that is what happens when you have over 1000 emails screaming for your attention. Trust me, I am really not that busy but I pretend to be so I can avoid more work.
Hope all is well
Quick journal...
Hey all...hope everyone is having a good day. I have been able to clear about 2/3 of my emails that were waiting for me....jet lag is an a$$ kicker but provides a few hours of uninterrupted work time to do some stuff.
Talked to SIL today about sitch and some of the stuff that happened during my last weekend at home. MIL noticed upon my departure to come back that W was very weapy and had tears in her eyes which is a good sign.
She is a good person and I love her very much. 1 yr anniversary of her dad's death is coming up and I know this will be a very low point with her. I asked her if she was planning any type of special ceremony or anything and she started crying. I apologized later and let the convo go, nothing further from her side.
I know that she went to see a lawyer last week and got some sort of packet. I am not agreeing to anything until I return in late March. Thankfully, my state requires a 1 year separation if that is the route she chooses. If things continue to go down this road then it will likely be 14-18 months before a judge or mediator becomes involved. Plenty of time to DB and deal with sitch, I think things will be dramatically different when I return and I hope for the better.
Right now, it is cold as all get out in Afghanistan which should make the next 3 months very interesting. However, it promises a white christmas which I have not seen in several years so that will be cool.
Hope everyone has a great day. I should be getting internet for my room later and that will avail me more time to read and post. Right now I have to share a computer with others.
cheers!
KABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!
Contrary to popular belief that is not the sound of mortars coming in to Afghanistan. That is the sound of the bomb that just went off in my sitch. My W sent me a letter today detailing her meeting with her attorney. She believes that a legal separation is the way to go right now but she wants to backdate it to the date of my deployment. My state requires a 1 year separation agreement prior to pursuing divorce and if she backdates it to my deployment date then she basically could seek a divorce prior to me returning.
So, I had to rule some stuff out so I went to see an attorney from the Army who gave me some very settling advice and I believe it will give me the necessary time to develop this situation post deployment. I am not going to agree to the backdate, I will only agree to a separation if she continues to pursue with dates oriented to my return. The earliest I will agree to is the date of her letter to me 30 October 07.
I also did an anti-DB and got the information pertinent to my financial obligations currently and in the future. Suffice it to say that because she is a professional and working the horror stories we always hear in the military are not going to be the case for me. We always here how the spouse will take us to the bank in child support. Not so in my case unless she stops working and the burden of the support for the kids falls on my shoulders.
I have spoken to my boss to see if I can come home early. I feel totally helpless over here and my personal situation has consumed me making my focus on the mission that much less and consequently a hazard when supporting our troops. It is a head thing more than not and I think I can re-program but it is very hard.
I cried for the first time today about my sitch. I have been in shock and rage up until now. My emotions could not be contained and I ended up on my knees praying to God to help me in this situation with tears staining the chair I was resting on. It felt good to cry and I have a feeling that this will be the first of many tears I will shed, ultimately, I pray leading to tears of joy as my marriage resolves itself.
I wanted to share a couple all too familiar phrases from my W letter to me today...sound familiar?
--I seem to pull farther and farther away every day
--A marriage needs two people to work on it and ours just doesn't have that
--Even seeing you did not move me or cause me to feel excitement or joy
--ILYBNILWY--need to add this to my profile
--This whole fiasco is my fault
--I have to regain some peace and clarity in my life; although legally separating from you will not bring that, it will help me feel more organized about this process and our marriage
Will somebody please introduce me to the alien that has infested my beautiful wife and tell them to get the F*** out of my sitch.
I am not going to agree to the backdate, I will only agree to a separation if she continues to pursue with dates oriented to my return. The earliest I will agree to is the date of her letter to me 30 October 07.
First thing that came to my mind...you can send me my attorney fees when ya get back. I would not be able or willing to deal with this over seas. Wait until ya get back.
We always here how the spouse will take us to the bank in child support. Not so in my case unless she stops working and the burden of the support for the kids falls on my shoulders.
Same here AND I could have even collected alimony...WOW...
But..... W got laid off.
I cried for the first time today about my sitch. I have been in shock and rage up until now. My emotions could not be contained and I ended up on my knees praying to God to help me in this situation with tears staining the chair I was resting on. It felt good to cry and I have a feeling that this will be the first of many tears I will shed, ultimately, I pray leading to tears of joy as my marriage resolves itself.
Felt great didn't it??? Man I did this very same thing. I was luck enough. (Or was it luck?) To find a church on my way home from work that was empty (or was it?). I just cried my eyes out. I prayed for my W, for our marriage. For the OM and for the OM marriage.
Take care buddy. Hope you can come home soon. Even if things don't work out in you M. being over there is not the place to be when your mind is on other things. In my line of work I could ruin a $20.000 piece of equipment if I was not keeping my mind on my work big deal. Your line…....... a life can be lost.....
Again take care, Try to concentrate on you mission, and get home as soon as ya can. And try not to worry about what you have no control over.
Manuel
Hey MC... hope you are doing well over there.
I just re-read your sitch. It sounds to me like she has discovered another person. I don't intend this to be hurtful - I know you suspect it anyway. But what I see going on is that she is chasing her fantasy. As you know, any attempt that you make to interfere will only push her away.
Don't have any advice. Sounds like you are doing the right things. Just wanted to offer my support.
KABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!
I wanted to share a couple all too familiar phrases from my W letter to me today...sound familiar?
--I seem to pull farther and farther away every day
--A marriage needs two people to work on it and ours just doesn't have that
--Even seeing you did not move me or cause me to feel excitement or joy
--ILYBNILWY--need to add this to my profile
--This whole fiasco is my fault
--I have to regain some peace and clarity in my life; although legally separating from you will not bring that, it will help me feel more organized about this process and our marriage
Will somebody please introduce me to the alien that has infested my beautiful wife and tell them to get the F*** out of my sitch.
Hi mcol,
I've had 5 of those and many more like them. As you say, it feels like an alien has taken over. The woman I used to have so much fun with slowly became emotionally cold, withdrawn and critical and then started going on about how much she had grown emotionally (i.e. outgrown me). The walls had gone up and as she said, she wasn't going to let me in any more.
She may genuinely feel or believe some of these but in my W's case some were smokescreens for withdrawl. I think even she knew they were not true.
Max
mcol-
I've been following your sitch and I just wanted to add my prayers for you and my thanks for your service.
I truly hope you can get home soon.
We're all thinking of you.
SueS
Mcol,
I'm so sorry. She is being so selfish. You have so much on your shoulders already being deployed and then she drops this bomb on you... I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Take care of yourself. You have many friends on here.
mcol.. just read your sitch.. let me say a few things first:
1. Thank you for your service!! I think about you guys all the time.
2. I'm not active.. I served from 93-99, but you know that adage "Once a Marine, always a Marine"
Your sitch is definitely FUBAR. I can't imagine how you feel being so far away from home and dealing with this.
I'll make a few observations:
1. Definitely can relate to the "being a hazard" while this is going on. I'm a computer geek and nearly got fired. Can't imagine the level of stress you are under.
2. I have to agree that the scenario is 2-3X tougher on the spouse.. no excuse though. She knew what she was getting into.
3. The death of her father is probably reeking havoc on the situation. Didn't glean how much support you were able to offer in that sitch, but if it was minimal (even though you were serving etc) that's a HUGE blow to them. The rock they need to lean on wasn't "emotionally" available.
4. I second that with the "being late all the time" another "emotionally" unavailable statement. BTDT.
5. I agree with Mark.. sounds like she is ready to test the waters with someone else. I got the same "speak" and it all lead to a PA.
6. Definitely agree with not backdating the separation. Be prepared for lots of anger and backlash as you will be keeping her from her "goal".
All of that aside.. this is not your fault. As she says, it takes 2 to make this things work. She has obviously given up without giving you the courtesy of trying to work things out.
Not to insult, but you seem like a very intelligent (officer right?) and insightful person. I would agree with a letter, but in your sitch, it probably would be perceived as more of the same. If you were to try and relate to her, can you do a webcam or phone if possible?
Again.. no begging or pleading.. just reassure her that you appreciate all that she has done while supporting you...
This may not be an acceptable approach now that she is seeking a separation.. it very well could fall on deaf ears.
Probably not much help, but you are doing well by posting on here . Stay safe!!
mcol:
A big bomb today, indeed. But it changes nothing. The day is long.
I agree that you should not agree to back-date the separation. Time is your best friend right now. It's the ultimate healer and it has a way of changing peoples' minds.
I have a feeling that you putting your foot down on a couple issues -- notably the separation back-dating crap -- is going to take your W aback. Again, I agree with jarhead that you're probably gonna feel some backlash from her. But making that stance is gonna do two things for you: A) It'll buy you some time, and B) It'll be a 180 for you. And I think, while it's gonna p!ss your wife off, it's also (perhaps subconsciously) gonna impress her. It'll be your first step in becoming the man who's more of a man than OM. I think your W wants a man. Not a doormat. You've been a doormat for too long.
"FlyGirl". Cute.
Mcol, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what you've gone thru, for what you're going thru and definitely for what you're going to be going thru...and that's enough feeling sorry for now.
You're going to have to hold two things in your mind at once. Your W is a beautiful person (who I doubt is of low morals, c'mon Ellie) that has been thru quite a lot. She's still full of the wonderful traits that attracted you to her in the first place and that constitute the woman you're still in love with. She's also in an awful lot of pain. She deserves empathy and understanding.
She's handling her pain, however, poorly and destructively. You have to be willing to deal with that and protect yourself and your kids from it.
So you have be sympathetic and strong. Gentle but firm.
(Mcol) I also did an anti-DB and got the information pertinent to my financial obligations currently and in the future.That's
NOT anti-DB. You have to figure out the possibilities and protect yourself. You're probably going to have to take some actions that may look like punishment from your W's perspective. You'll have to deal with that. I don't believe that you want to punish her and I think it would be counterproductive to punish her, but if legitimately protecting yourself looks like punishment, so be it. As I mentioned in my other post, you have a good model for what that looks like.
If you don't have an attorney, get one. If your W isn't already using the guy P&DB used, get him. If she is, get a recommendation for someone equally as good. If you suspect your W is still having an affair, snoop and find out. Don't keep snooping after that because you'll just cause yourself pain, but you do need to understand the terrain. Talk to your attorney about what you need to do to prove an A. Talk to your attorney about "alienation of affection," since this is a North Carolina issue.
If she's having an affair, separate your finances. Give her the money she needs to run your household but don't pay for the cell phone she's using to facilitate her A.
(FlyGirl) It'll be your first step in becoming the man who's more of a man than OM. I think your W wants a man. Not a doormat. You've been a doormat for too long. There's no "think"ing that your W wants a man. You know she needs a man, and she needs a leader with all she's going thru. If you've been a doormat for too long now's the time for a 180. The opposite of "doormat" isn't "a$$hole", btw. The opposite of "doormat" is "man". A man can be compassionate and forgiving without being anything near a doormat. That's your job.
Enough for now. You need to develop a plan fairly quickly and start implementing it but it doesn't have to happen in an instant. Love her and give her your understanding but make it obvious you're going to lead yourself thru this and she can trust you to lead her, too (it'll take time to build that trust). What you're not going to do is *follow* her into craziness and you're certainly not going to enable.
Listen to your SIL; she's smart and she knows the players. If something she says doesn't sit right with your gut, though, follow your gut (but not your bleeding heart...gotta learn the difference.)
If you have any questions or just want to talk about anything, spill it. I'll be checking in here and you can also reach me via email:
burgbud@rubywolf.com.
mcol,
I have to admit that I am kind of po'd for you at this moment. It strikes me as just downright nasty for your W to divorce you while you aren't even home to deal with it. OK.. with that said.. maybe it's just because it's less confrontational for her this way... Hmm.. Either way..so sorry. I know how you feel right now.. It hurts like he!!
I also cannot imagine the stress of being where you are and dealing with this. Like Jarhead, I am sooo ineffective at work at the moment that I would fire me!
Take care of yourself. You're getting some great words of wisdom here.
LO
Hey mcol. I am sorry about the letter. So sorry. She is really lost and hurting and thinks 'escaping' you is the cure. It will only make things worse, but she doesn't see this. I am glad your tears came. Ride it out when it comes, I have learned to do that.
Dark with contact. That is your goal. Tell her that you totally understand what she is going through (read up on validating her feelings, I think someone else said this too), tell her you know its what she wants.
I am thinking of you. Thank you so much for your service.
Little hijack, here, mcol. Sorry:
Hi, BB!!! I've missed you! Been thinking alot about all you guys lately, especially with the Christmas season and all. I remember, back in the day, being in my Christmas PJs -- all preggo and sh!t -- typing until the wee hours of the morning. As painful as those months were, I sure ended up with a lot of very warm memories. Anyway, I miss you.
But I'm so glad that mcol "found" you here. I knew you'd be a *huge* help. Stay in touch, won't you?
Let's chat soon.
Little hijack, here, mcol. Sorry:
Hi, BB!!! I've missed you! Been thinking alot about all you guys lately, especially with the Christmas season and all. I remember, back in the day, being in my Christmas PJs -- all preggo and sh!t -- typing until the wee hours of the morning. As painful as those months were, I sure ended up with a lot of very warm memories. Anyway, I miss you.
But I'm so glad that mcol "found" you here. I knew you'd be a *huge* help. Stay in touch, won't you?
Let's chat soon.
Hi, BB!!! I've missed you!...As painful as those months were, I sure ended up with a lot of very warm memories. Hey you! I've missed you, too. Funny what turns out to be "good times" in retrospect, eh? The night we tried to lock your thread will live in infamy forever, at least in my mind.
I'll keep in touch. I should send you a link to a YouTube video of me engaged in my new hobby. You'd never suspect. You should send me a link to updated family photos...though I may not have nine hours to go thru 'em all.
Ok...here we go kids. Get your popcorn, a soda and go to the bathroom because the proverbial sh$$ hit the fan today.
Just a quick recap,
KABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!
I wanted to share a couple all too familiar phrases from my W letter to me today...sound familiar?
--I seem to pull farther and farther away every day
--A marriage needs two people to work on it and ours just doesn't have that
--Even seeing you did not move me or cause me to feel excitement or joy
--ILYBNILWY--need to add this to my profile
--This whole fiasco is my fault
--I have to regain some peace and clarity in my life; although legally separating from you will not bring that, it will help me feel more organized about this process and our marriage
Upon arriving to work this morning after I had told W that did not want to backdate our separation to the day after I deployed she sent me some pretty shocking and hurtful words...more for the course as she is just trying to push as hard against me as she can to get me out of her life to make room for the manwhore (i will explain). She said that she was pretty much flexible on everything with the exception of the effective date of separation. She went on to say that the months since I went on my "fairytale" deployment have been hellacious for her to deal with and me not being there showed her that she could not count of me when she needed me most.
I wrote her a note back basically saying that I thought the way she was conducting herself and the people she was associating with were a detriment and the cause for her pushing her entire family away and I felt as though I needed to protect my interests. After that, I transferred money out of my joint account (my pay) to another account, and have proceeded to spend the last several hours trying to plan the care for my kids and my affairs. I cancelled her power of attorney and issued a new POA specific to the kids only.
I have contacted a lawyer whose advice was not to do anything unless her lawyer contacts me. If that happens then he told me to call him and he would write a letter basically telling them that I would not be doing anything in regards to this case until I return from my deployment. So if they try to stick it to me then not only will she not get the date in september, she will have to wait until March or April before the 12 month clock starts.
She of course is very irate and once she received the cancellation of power of attorney (I also issued the same SPOA to the MIL) W went to her house, gave her $500 cash and said "I guess that he just gave you custody of the kids" Bless the MIL heart she was beside herself and is not in the mindset to deal with all of the stress plus handle this blowout.
I have prepped my parents that if W cannot handle the kids nor can her mom and if I cannot come home then I will need them to step in and take care of them until such a time as when I can be there.
I contacted an investigator as I feel as though W will flee into the arms of the OM for comfort and support and possibly seal the PA that I have suspected. We have about 2 wks until anniversary of dad's death and I believe that most of the immediate lashing out will happen in the next couple of weeks. The more long term resolution will occur over several months. Not sure, nor do I care right now which way our R goes but I am not giving up on her no matter how pissed she is with what I have done.
W is supposed to either meet or drop S,D,S off with my family after Christmas but am curious to know if she will not let this happen now that we are at odds.
W reiterated the ILYBNILWY part of her thang.
Mentally, I am exhausted. Jet lag + W on the brink of doing something really stupid, plus trying to get my affairs in order for the long haul takes its toll.
The bad news is that I believe I will have to sacrifice some retirement planning (only for a few months) in order to ensure I have the capital to get established.
My prayer has been and will always remain that W and I work out our situation. Those of you who have gone through it know about the not wanting to eat and depression and all that stuff. Sadly, the military will not flex much to get me home. We have already had to send one person back for a situation that is much worse than my own and another soldier just got notified he will have to go home and take another job due to some other guy not being able to control his hormones. This puts my boss in a tough spot but I trust he will do what he thinks is best in this situation.
Peaks and valleys everyone. The constant declaration of I should not have to be doing this is playing ping pong in my head. Thank you to all who have replied to my sitch. Stay tuned as the hits will begin to roll pretty heavily.
One interesting note. W attorney closes his offices on Friday so she was not able to get in touch with him. Snicker, Snicker.
More later...I am exhausted. Would love to hear feedback
Hey, mcol! I don't have a bunch of time at the moment so I'll hit what I see as the highlights for now.
...she sent me some pretty shocking and hurtful words...A current positive for you is that these words are being sent rather than said, so you have time to take stock and gauge your reaction. Make a habit of not responding immediately. Give yourself a couple of hours to figure out what message you actually want to send. Believe me, the witty responses and lock-solid logic that pops into your head at first will fall on completely unappreciative and unimpressed ears.
You want to be solid. You're handling a difficult situation with as much grace as you can. You're not going to get dragged into craziness.
She went on to say that the months since I went on my "fairytale" deployment have been hellacious for her to deal with and me not being there showed her that she could not count of me when she needed me most.Feel free to explain that you can really see how difficult that's been and you've already decided to take steps so she won't be in that position in the future. (If you say that, she'll try to use it as some type of leverage in a future conversation...just agree with her again and let it go; she can be right about that but it in no way justifies any type of A and you don't have to pretend like it does.)
I've really gotta run; I'll respond more tomorrow. You seem to be on the right track. Try to isolate vindictiveness and venting (well justified as it is) to this board. To your W, you're a strong, loving man who's handling some serious adversity as best you see fit. Start thinking about your frame, i.e. how you see the world. For example, you used to have one frame about your retirement planning. That frame is now OBE (Army guys still use "OBE", right?) and you adjusted to a new frame. You're going to have some very fundamental frame adjustments to do. Also, start thinking about "detachment from outcome." It's tough but the closer you get to that, the easier it will be for you to act in the manner most likely to achieve positive results.
The constant declaration of I should not have to be doing this is playing ping pong in my head. No doubt, brother, and that's a key point. You *don't* actually have to be doing this. You're choosing to because of the result you want. That gives you strength. If you change your mind later and decide that isn't the result you want, you can change your actions. As of now, my perspective is that you have three good reasons to give this your best shot (four, really...you're gonna learn a lot about yourself, stuff you never wanted to have to learn
).
Oh, and am I correct in assuming that she doesn't yet know that you suspect/know about the OM?
A current positive for you is that these words are being sent rather than said, so you have time to take stock and gauge your reaction. Make a habit of not responding immediately. Give yourself a couple of hours to figure out what message you actually want to send.
You are right here. We have not spoken on the phone in any serious detail for weeks, possibly months
Feel free to explain that you can really see how difficult that's been and you've already decided to take steps so she won't be in that position in the future.
I really must sharpen this part of my approach. Up until now I have been playing the stunned mullet and hurt puppy. I must realize (and I will) that bickering with her on the finer points of rationality will not work and I must try to seriously empathize and listen to her position. I have tried to massage her a little bit...here is a quote from one of my emails yesterday...
I am so thankful that you have handled my affairs up until this point and have done so with great proficiency ensuring that we have stayed up to date but I feel that at this point it is going to be more viable if my dad takes over the execution of these affairs except for areas dealing with the kids.
Try to isolate vindictiveness and venting (well justified as it is) to this board.
Yes, I will and I must because the lead edge of the tidal wave is just approaching.
Start thinking about your frame, i.e. how you see the world. For example, you used to have one frame about your retirement planning. That frame is now OBE (Army guys still use "OBE", right?) and you adjusted to a new frame.
This is good and yes you are very right about the OBE.
As of now, my perspective is that you have three good reasons to give this your best shot (four, really...you're gonna learn a lot about yourself, stuff you never wanted to have to learn
).
Dead on brother. All four of them are very precious to me and I absolutely do not want to lose them.
Oh, and am I correct in assuming that she doesn't yet know that you suspect/know about the OM?
I am not sure what she has inferred from one of my last email. This is what I wrote to her...
My understanding of the current situation you are in and those you are associating with has put you in a position where you are pushing me, your children and your entire family away from you and your "single" independent life. While this new lifestyle may be giving you the confidence and outlet you seek to "escape" your pain and misery the relationships you are in and the affairs your have engaged may seem rational to you, I can tell you that there are no less than 11 members of your family who do not share your sentiments.
I think I have been saying some of the right things and I have tried to represent my feelings well by not getting overly emotional. I am trying to be rational and I know rational will not be her cup of tea for a while but still trying to stay ahead of any major moves she could make.
If I know her and her current state she will power through these events with vigor, anger and a redneck flare that would make Gretchen Wilson blush. However, there will come a time (not sure when) where she will go cold and careless and resolve that she will not be able to fight or change what is going on. I am concerned for this stage as this is where she turns inward and will be non-responsive to anything that is said or done to her. I also see this part of the upcoming battle as when the kids will become pawns in the game which I will fight like he!! to try and prevent.
More later...my nerves prevailed last night and I only got about an hour of sleep. Nap will be the order of the day today. Someone give me the magic anti-jet lag pill (ironically, i heard yesterday that they are looking at viagra to combat this). How would I roll over in bed while sleeping if I took viagra to combat my jet lag?? Ok...sorry, trying to stay upbeat and comical (my normal self)
I will post again later, I had really expected her to have fired back a response when I opened my email this morning but something tells me she is circling her wagon of online friends and plotting the next move.
I am also worried about MIL, this whole situation is signficantly overwhelming her and she is not far away from a nervous breakdown. Only bad thing is that she is the primary provider for S,D,S after they finish daycare. Without her, W will be up a creek, may have to leave job and then financial burden on us will become most extreme.
Today has not been so good. After staying up until 4:30 am trying to take care of personal business, getting very little sleep (about 1 hr) and trying to take a nap I am in horrible condition right now.
I am sure the depression I am feeling is producing the desire to not want to eat which makes me shaky because I don't have enough vitamins and minerals. My fatigue is doubled due to my jet lag and not being able to get my internal clock synched with time over here.
Of course, there is also the chickenlittle syndrome which rears its ugly head...about every hour or so until I can beat it down.
Bottom line, I am a wreck. Considering going to the doctor and getting an anti-depressant just in case these symptoms do not get better.
I also know that I felt the same way when I came back from leave for a couple of days and when I thought I could not take it anymore, my body miraculously snapped into schedule and I got better. I wonder if I am experiencing the same thing right now coupled with fear and grief from my sitch.
Is there a doctor in the house? Watch some cartoons for me.
mcol,
I know what you're going through. This past summer, I discovered that my 47yo wife was having an affair with her 29yo personal trainer. I confronted her, and she denied it, but I persisted and ultimately had to expose her to her family, the OM's family and our own children before she would stop lying about it. I even had to PLAY AUDIO of her in order for her to stop the denial.
I had my doctor give me two anti-anxiety/anti-depressant meds. One was a long-term one, which you take every day and it takes a couple of weeks to kick in, but it really helps you "even out" and get thru the roller-coaster. The other was something that I was to take only as needed, as I had had a couple of panic attacks -- one when I witnessed my beautiful wife meeting up in a parking lot with the OM, getting into his POS truck and driving off to his house.
Ugh.
The point is, there's nothing wrong with using medication to help you get thru this -- even Glass, Harley and several other authors on infidelity recommend it. It helped me a lot, and fortunately I only needed to take the panic ones about three times.
I also lost about 20 pounds from not eating. You're going to have to FORCE yourself to eat something, morning-noon-and-night, even if you don't feel like it. Because this is going to be hard enough, without your body being weak. Remember, food feeds your BRAIN, too, and you need that organ more than any other right now.
It sounds to me like you had a TREMENDOUS day (I know it doesn't feel like it) doing all of the things necessary to protect yourself. I too had to open up a second bank account and all that, but you do what you have to do. There are simply too many stories out there of what people will do when the brain chemicals run amok. After all, an otherwise intelligent and sane adult astronaut drove across the country WEARING A FREAKING DIAPER for the man she loved.
Hang in there. It does get better.
- Choc.
After all, an otherwise intelligent and sane adult astronaut drove across the country WEARING A FREAKING DIAPER for the man she loved.
- Choc.
Choc
You rock brother...this last sentence gave me the boost I needed today. I realize now that I should probably wait to wake up from my nap before I post. I still feel like doo doo and have had peaks and valleys all day, I almost walked to the next office to talk to the surgeon about getting AD. However, I keep telling myself that I cannot control what she is doing but I can control how I react and how I fix my broken heart. I sometimes even pretend this never happened to get me out of my funk. I hate to say it but I wear my emotions on my sleeve and many of my co-workers have seen how this BS has impacted me.
I can appreciate the level you had to go to so that your W admitted to the A. My intent with my snooping is to have the items I need to confront if that is what it takes to get her to pull her head out of her rear.
Can I ask what happened after the confrontation? Are you still DBing or have you moved on?
Thanks for taking time and look forward to hearing from you again.
For everyone....I am waiting for W to blast me back her series of demands. I feel like a hostage negotiator. I highly doubt that she will talk to me for a while since I pulled the plug on her cushy financial situation. In trusting her to take care of the finances which she did remarkably, I now realize that I enabled her single lifestyle because there was no way she needed all the money she had access to.
My despair was kind of high today because my brain was playing tricks. I thought that because I had dropped the other shoe, she would do something drastic to harm herself or the kids, thank you Andrea Yates and all the other psycho people who take the lives of their kids to spare them this life!! I actually had quite a bit of anxiety about the whole thing and as my day has gone on I figured I would have heard something by now. Thankfully, nothing yet.
I realize now that I should probably wait to wake up from my nap before I post. I still feel like doo doo and have had peaks and valleys all day, I almost walked to the next office to talk to the surgeon about getting AD. However, I keep telling myself that I cannot control what she is doing but I can control how I react and how I fix my broken heart.
Hey Mcol,
I am going to TRY to send ya a e-book. It worked when i sent it to one other person and did not when sent to another.
Don't have an e-mail so I will try to send in through your "my space"
take care buddy,
Husband
H,
You can send it to michael.collins@us.army.mil Thank ahead of time.
Oh great Mcol, Get me in the gov. list....
I tried to send it and here was my reply
You sent a message to a us.army.mil user that contained the following files
that are not allowed by Army NETCOM guidance 2004-11A:
I will cut and past it too you when I get back..
Husband
Can I ask what happened after the confrontation? Are you still DBing or have you moved on?
My wife came to me one evening, broke down in tears, and begged me to take her back. She told me she loved me, had always loved me, that "you are my home," and that she wanted to try to work it out with her. She apologized for hurting me, knew that she was wrong, and wanted to try to save our marriage and our family. I told her I needed to think about it, and the next day told her I had four conditions:
1. That she write a no-contact letter to the OM, the content to be approved by me;
2. She quit her job (their affair began at work, and was facilitated there);
3. She get a full-panel STD test;
4. She change her cellphone number, and get detailed billing on the new one and have it come to me.
She agreed to ALL of them, without hesitation. She quit her job immediately, but dragged her feet on the others but eventually did them all except for the STD test, which is still pending. We're struggling, and under extreme financial stress and possible foreclosure on our house, but we're trying. She backslid once, and re-contacted the OM with her own no-contact letter, and then met with him once and they exchanged text messages. After two weeks of this, she came to me proactively and confessed to slipping up, and this is when she finally agreed to take the steps outlined above (at that point, she had only quit her job, and done none of the other things).
I honestly don't know if we'll make it or not, but she is healthier and safer by not being in the affair anymore, and at least we have a SHOT at making the marriage work. There's a lot of trust issues, obviously, and then of course the longer-term clashing libidos problems.
But I am stronger, and I have my dignity back. I honestly can't imagine just sitting around, "hoping" she leaves him and comes back to me and our family. I drew a strong boundary, insisted on it, and enforced it, and that -- for me -- was huge. I'd never been good at that, and it's a lesson that will serve me well whether it's with her or with someone else.
Choc.
Ok...once again get some snacks and have a seat. As Desi Arnes would say "Lucy, you got some splainin to do". I feel like I just had my own personal Cuban missile crisis.
Spoke to W for three hours last night...amazing what a little much needed communication can do to a relationship
Since receiving her letter with all of the things that most rational people would indicate an affair as per DR and seeing that my W wanted to backdate our separation to the day after I deployed, that she had seen an attorney and I suspected a PA with someone she met online about the same time I got her letter of concern I assumed the worst and took steps to protect my affairs and interests (moved $2500 out of our checking account and cancelled powers of attorney). Reaction was based on fear, anger, suspicion.
W was extremely hurt and angry over what she viewed as a knee jerk reaction to a simple meeting with an attorney and her family's interpretation to this relationship with her friend whom I thought was the OM. In the early part of our conversation she said that my actions had "put her on notice" and that she was likely more apt to pursue legal action faster because I took the money (my money) before talking to her and finding out if she had needs for the money or if my kids had needs.
She did not understand why everyone in her family was reacting to alleged OM. I told her that her meeting a new guy that no one knows in and around the same time she started telling me that she was not content in our R and that she wanted to separate sent red flags up all over the place.
The error I made in this whole situation was to not talk/confront W prior to making assumptions based on perceptions I had from over her in Afghanistan and hearing things from her family about what they were seeing daily.
My M has always been based on honesty and love and I feel sort of like an idiot but honestly feel and still feel that given the same information and timeline I likely would have taken the same course of action. Everyone I have talked to and explained the sitch to said they would have done the same thing that I did.
So the bottom line is that I confronted W about a possible affair and she explained the extent of her R with this OM which I believe.
That does not mean that my R is not in trouble. The last 6-10 months, W has been talking to everyone under the sun about her feelings in our R except for me. We could have avoided most of this situation if she would have not listened to everyone else and talked to me, her H and the one who swore to God to love her more than anyone else on the earth.
Although still very upset by the circumstances, not to mention the position she is in with her family I firmly believe we made a large step forward in our R. However, we are far from safe. I will endeavor not to smother her with my communication but knowing that she is hurting right now I know that this is a prime opportunity for me to be there for her and rekindle our R that was derailed by some really sh$tty communication and total misinterpretation to a series of indicators.
So friends, while I do not feel like I have wasted my time at all in this forum or reading all of your experiences and hearing what you have had to say, I have learned a great deal about what happens when two people who love each other don't talk or explain our feelings.
I told her that I was sorry for the perceptions and assumptions that I made and I will continue to attempt to help her understand how she could have influenced the course of events and insist she take responsibility for lack of communicating with me. She has to understand how her actions oriented around the associated timeline and correspondence affected me and my actions.
Please see my new string in piecing our marriage back together. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everything you have helped me to understand. The validating and assumption of responsibility with things in this relationship are things that I will take away into my new R with my W. With God's help my R will fulfill the lifelong goal I have had...growing old with my W and enjoying our time together as H and W.
Mike
hey everyone...the link in the post above is where I am hanging my hat now.
mcol,
Good morning. I'm a bit confused, after reading about your sitch. Upon what evidence are you assuming that your assumptions are NOT true? How do you know your wife is not having at least an emotional affair?
I know you WANT to believe this, but something smells funny here to me. You're swinging all over the place, from moving your money one day to totally believing her the next. You need to find a steady, middle ground upon which to make your stand right now.
I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said, "Trust . . . but verify." A keylogger on her computer should do the trick, one way or another.
- Choc.
Choc
I completely understand what you are saying and you are not the only one who has mentioned this same concern. Quite frankly, I have my own concerns. One thing that W said yesterday that sticks in my mind is "If I wanted to have an affair no one would know about it". I believe this to be true. I do believe she has trusted in this guy for emotional support...to what level I would call that an emotional affair, not sure.
Trust me when I say the scenario is not lost on me but I have to be honest that at this moment I am more concerned for the other part of our R that were identified last night and not a possible EA.
I will have to wait and see because I am far from re-kindling anything. But my wife has a very hard time lying and her level of emotion she was dealing with last night makes it very difficult to think she was lying about her relationship with him.
Time will tell...even if it was an emotional affair, she has been called on it and I believe that she wants to save our marriage as well. Me not being there has had a significant impact on her...that and not having her dad right now is just very difficult.
Gotta go call her and then off to my room to reclaim some sleep that I lost over the last several days.
Then a keylogger should let you know.
Look, if you don't want us to help, you can just tell us to "bug out." I do respect your privacy, and I'm only giving you my opinion. I could be wrong.
I don't think I am, though, and if we're NOT wrong, then you can't work on your marriage while your wife is opening herself up emotionally to another man.
Choc.
I'mmmmm Baaccckkk!!! Friends...I will try to summarize the craziness of the whole thing with a couple of pointed quotes from you and some of my own ramblings...my other post got deleted(dang internet)
This is old business but should provide a frame of reference. The issues are still valid but I am nowhere near the point where I can tackle any of them due to the OM.
[quote=mcol] mcol, now that the EA/PA has been disproved, will you describe the current relationship between your W and the guy previously suspected to be the OM?
This was the first anvil to the head...what was I thinking? Nothing had changed with her and OM despite my new found belief in my wife's honesty.
mcol,
I'm sorry, but I'm not buying. You strike me as a sharp, sensitive guy, and you suspected SO much that you made the drastic moves of separating your finances and seeking out legal counsel, as well as involving family members. Now, you've totally done a 180.
I asked you yesterday, "By what evidence have you come to the conclusion that your wife is not having at least an EA?", and you responded:
Quote:
I completely understand what you are saying and you are not the only one who has mentioned this same concern. Quite frankly, I have my own concerns. One thing that W said yesterday that sticks in my mind is "If I wanted to have an affair no one would know about it". I believe this to be true. I do believe she has trusted in this guy for emotional support...to what level I would call that an emotional affair, not sure.
Trust me when I say the scenario is not lost on me but I have to be honest that at this moment I am more concerned for the other part of our R that were identified last night and not a possible EA.
I will have to wait and see because I am far from re-kindling anything. But my wife has a very hard time lying and her level of emotion she was dealing with last night makes it very difficult to think she was lying about her relationship with him.
Time will tell...even if it was an emotional affair, she has been called on it and I believe that she wants to save our marriage as well. Me not being there has had a significant impact on her...that and not having her dad right now is just very difficult.
(emphasis mine)
You do understand, don't you, that if she HAS been unfaithful, that all infidels lie? She would NOT tell you the truth about it. Unless I'm missing something, what I'm hearing you say is, "I believe her because I believe her."
You suspected it; even her own family suspected it. You are the people who know her, and the situation, the best.
You at least owe it to yourself to get some unbiased, 3rd-party proof, one way or another. It will either put your mind at ease, or it will give you the information you need to deal with the situation wisely and effectively.
Put a keylogger on her computer, and/or hire a private investigator, if you can afford one. I had to put a keylogger on our PC and eventually put a voice-activated recorder in my wife's car. I had a friend of a friend follow her. I INSISTED the entire time that everyone on the message boards was wrong, that my wife was asexual, if anything, and that it would turn up nothing.
Instead, it turned up that she was meeting her 29yo (my wife and I are 47) personal trainer in department store parking lots, meeting up at his friend's house for sex, and heavy petting in her car, that I was paying for!
Choc, you are quickly becoming my hero...thanks for challenging this man....anvil to the head #2
From mcol's sig:
Top areas to work:
1) Communication
2) Making my wife first in everything
From my evening's reading:
Quote:
As a therapist, I've worked with couples where the woman insisted that she should be her man's number one priority. This is a recipe for disaster. A man must make his passion his number one priority. By doing so, he gives his woman (or women) something to be attracted to. Once he makes something else his number one priority, he loses the masculine energy that naturally attracts feminine energy.
I am pretty sure I get this
Originally Posted By: chocolateeyes
You do understand, don't you, that if she HAS been unfaithful, that all infidels lie? She would NOT tell you the truth about it. Unless I'm missing something, what I'm hearing you say is, "I believe her because I believe her."
You suspected it; even her own family suspected it. You are the people who know her, and the situation, the best.
Choc...I am with you however, I need to explain that the W I married changed drastically when her dad died and I deployed. I think the whole family does not understand the new person that they are trying to deal with and as such they do not understand her. To that end, I believe that we were applying our understanding of the old W as opposed to the new W (very difficult to type exactly what changed) which is why we thought the affair. Communication is the key man.
She was afraid that she was going to lose me over here so she blocked me out of her emotional response. As such, I believe she started to live life without me because something inside her told her that she needed to prepare for the worst. Unfortunately, that side took over which led to her change of heart and the subsequent letters. I think she determined after losing her father that it would too painful to lose me as well. As such, I think she decided to try to get me out of her life so she would not have to face that pain again. I am praying that once I get back she will do a 180 on me because I am out of danger. She has always said that due to my occupation she has never been able to seriously consider a future with me because I might get killed. I will delve into this with her tonight to see her response...depending on her mood of course and how she is feeling about all the crap that went down in the last several days.
Yesterday we had a little snag. We were IMing and in an attempt to try to connect I was asking her lots of questions about her friends. I felt like it was prying so I asked her if she felt like I was snooping to which she said "it is starting to feel like it". I immediately recoiled and stopped watching her chat room and apologized. I thought my response was appropriate in saying that in my attempt to get to know her again I wanted to get to know her friends. Clearly, she has found something in them which is comforting and provides haven. If I can tap into that then it may help build trust and start repairing our R.
I contemplated hiring a PI and almost went through with it but at the end of the day I realized what I need to do is listen to my wife and believe her when she tells me things. This side of our R needs the most work. We need to hear each other and empathize with what has happened to the R we held dear before her father died. Then maybe we can go forward.
Originally Posted By: burgbud
now that the EA/PA has been disproved, will you describe the current relationship between your W and the guy previously suspected to be the OM?
Burg...the relationship is the same, they call each other to talk about the things going on in their lives. I am not crazy about it but I am in, as I see it, to make demands of W. If I feel like she is sidetracking me in favor of him then I will likely address it.
That quote was intense but I have to tell you that she said the part of her heart that felt anything for me hard and cold. I have to find a way to spark that flame again. I think the first major step forward is coming home. I believe that she will not be able to reconnect with me until she knows that i am generally out of harm's way. Although driving on the interstates in America is more dangerous than being here, statistically.
My answers to anvils #1 and #2...with blinders still affixed.
With all due respect, you are being incredibly naive. What you have done is listed all kinds of reasons and excuses why your wife might be DRAWN toward an affair, and/or away from her husband, but that still does not excuse her if she ACTED upon those reasons.
And I believe she has, and I believe so do you. You're just so wracked with some combination of guilt and also fear of losing her if you "spook" her, that you're willing to emasculate yourself and you're going all "needy/grabby" on her, which is NOT attractive to her, I can assure you (women, jump in here if I am wrong).
I am NOT trying to be a hard-ass here, but rather speak the truth in love. I do not know you, but I do know what I went thru, and what I've learned from it. My way may or may NOT work, there is no guarantee. But your way absolutely will not, and you'll be left with regrets for the rest of your life that you should have been more forceful.
This is what got me to start see the light that nothing had changed except for me and what I was willing to tolerate....so here we are. I will post new material and responses to questions in my next one.aaaaaaccckkkkk
Ok...now on to new business...thanks for staying with me...
Quote:
How can I still bring her back from the brink but tell her she needs to stop turning to OM for emotional support and turn to me when we have a hard time getting through to each other on the phone?
You stop "going wobbly" every-other day, and you fight for your marriage and your family. You make her make a choice. Yeah, right now, if you made her make it today, it may not be you. But divorces take time, and that choice won't be made today. They take months, even years if they're contested, depending on what state you live in. During those months, you have a chance eto demonstrate to her what she would be losing, and to work on YOU.
Choc..you are spot on man. I was so upset at how I had backslid that I wrote four page letter to her today (not sent) that basically stated if she wanted out she could go and that I can not expend any further energy trying to save a grasp for someone who has written me off (abridged). Maybe I will post it...then again maybe not.
One of my bigger fears is walking off the plane and getting served, even though my lawyer says that these proceedings can be delayed. In the midst of all the other adjusting I am preparing to do (job, home, ex military) I do not want to have to throw in court appointments, attorney time and money.
Quote:
She also told me that she felt like I was snooping because i was asking about her online friends. I was not trying to snoop but this was my way of trying to understand the new herand relate to some of the stuff she is going through.
Um, you ASKED her if she felt like you were snooping. You need to stop apologizing, placating, supplicating, and overall asking her permission to be YOU and to feel what YOU are feeling. You are human, a man who loves his wife and his family. A flawed man, surely (we all are), but you are responding to your wife's decision to become at LEAST emotionally involved with another man (and I suspect that it's also physical). Frankly, she's lucky you're still talking to her at all.
I have decided to go dark with her for the next couple of days. It is very hard because I will want to talk to the kids but I know she may answer the phone. I will simply ask to speak to them and not engage her in any convo at all. I am just too pissed right now to talk to her.
I would recommend having some new, hard evidence in hand before you confront her with that.
You had mentioned a keylogger but how do i get that installed on her laptop/desktop when I am over here? You can send me an email on mpcollins73@gmail.com for this one.
Listen, this DBing is a friggin technique. All of us would like to believe that our sitches don't fit the mold. The mold, after all, sucks. Your R (and its current issues), unfortunately, isn't so unique that it doesn't fit the mold. To that end, read and pay attention to what people are telling you -- they are not emotionally connected to your sitch and can give you a lot of very credible, objective information.
Flygirl...thanks for staying with me and understanding my code. I am so thankful for the help of those on here who are objectively looking at this sitch...THANK YOU!!!! I am all ears and ready to bust this thing...and OM nose but that is another story or entry.
Just stay focused, mcol, and you'll come out on top of this sitch. Use the "tools" that folks are giving you. And remember to take one moment at a time in the moments when one day ... or one hour ... seems to difficult.
Is the military attempting whatsoever to expedite your return home? When do you expect to return?
P.S. That's me (FlyGirl) above. FlyGirl's just my alias. But I decided to bring P&DB back. Not sure for how long, though...
Continue to talk to your children, just avoid conversation with the wife.
Is the military attempting whatsoever to expedite your return home? When do you expect to return?
I have not heard although I have asked a couple of times. We have two spots on the early flight and those seem to be filled already, not sure if my boss is still considering. He knows my needs though.
W said that if she had the resources she would move closer to job. Do you think she is considering moving in with OM who has a house close to her work? Would be reminiscent of another relationship where she moved in with guy to be close to job but away from family. Difference is that she did not have S,D,S then...I would be furious to say the least.
[1uote=ILF] Is the military attempting whatsoever to expedite your return home? When do you expect to return?
[/quote] S8 and I talk alot, D3 does not say much because she does not understand the whole phone thing yet and S18 months is oblivious. I will continue to make this my standard.
No, I do not believe that she has intentions of moving in with OM. I think she knows that'd fly over like a farting whore in church. But to be closer to him? Absolutely, unfortunately.
I think, for now, your children's ties to your W's family and the fact that she *really needs* your MIL to help with the kids -- and maybe, to a lesser extent, a lease-deal at her apartment? -- is going to keep her planted right where she is.
To your knowledge, have your children met/spent time with OM?
Also, your W is saying that "if she had the resources." The fact is: Your W is apparently about as independent and bull-headed as they come and believes that where there's a will, there's a way. If she *truly* wanted to be there, we both know that she already would be.
Don't project, bro. This M *can* be turned around. It just takes *a lot* of time and patience, especially considering where you are while having to deal with this.
Have your children met/spent time with OM?
Not that I am aware of. I know that the W and OM went christmas shopping together and they purchased a BB Gun for S8. Why W brother, who likes to hunt, could hot have done that is beyond me.
considering where you are while having to deal with this.
Yeah..that is what sucks...I constantly struggle with the out of sight out of mind complex projecting that it gives her the freedom she wants to do whatever.
Darkness day 1 successful. Lets see if I can do a day 2. I am anticipating another letter from W with the big D mentioned. Although, I did not notice that she paid the power bill for our house online. After I moved money she said she was not going to do anything else with our joint account (which has all the money for paying the bills). Wonder if she is having a de-thawing of heart in that area?
Ok...day 2 here I come. Got to talk to my dad yesterday, they have been so great through this whole thing. In fact almost everyone I have talked to seems to believe that this is relatively one sided.
Time to shower...glad I worked out...I have lost a combined 8 pounds in three weeks adn I am sure stress has quite a bit to do with it.
Great going on Dark Day No. 1. Why do you anticipate another letter from your W with the word "D" involved?
P.S. Out-of-sight-out-of-mind has a totally different meaning -- and result -- when you're trying to save your M. The benefit in such a scenario is actually yours ... not hers. It doesn't seem logical. But it's true.
mcol,
If your wife tells you want a divorce, in fact -- every time she brings UP the subject -- just simply say "I do not want a divorce." Or, "That's not what I want," or "I don't want to divorce you."
It will exasperate her, but you mustn't waver. Your position is twofold:
1) I love you and do not want a divorce;
2) I will not live in an "open" marriage, nor tolerate infidelity and disrespect from my wife.
You're simultaneously telling her that the current situation is not an option, but also that you don't want to end it. She needs to see you fighting for your marriage, so hopefully she will begin to do the same.
In my opinion, she doesn't believe you will fight for her.
- Choc.
mcol,
In my opinion, she doesn't believe you will fight for her.
Choc--so how do I show her that I am willing to fight for her and my marriage? Demand that she stop the EA? Kind of hard to see that working since she started the EA after she did not think I was sincere about getting out of the Army (10/19/07-I found the email I sent to the Army which she says flipped a switch). She knows that I am getting out but I have said that before. Not sure how to prove it since there are so many months before I am actually out (June 08)
P&DB-I anticipate it because after every major incident/spat over the last two months I have gotten the next step in writing. It is actually pretty disturbing. This last spat she got mad that I told one of her old friends that she and I had a blowout and he should probably call her.
What do you guys think about her re-engaging the bill paying functions for me? She paid the power bill...which does not mean she has taken back over but certainly better than "I am dealing with this f***ing account anymore..you can do it."
Choc,
Also, she started the EA as a result of me not being able to be there. I am still not there so what steps can I take to mitigate the distance??
mcol,
Your questions seem to boil down to "How can I stop her from having an affair seeing as how I'm so far away, and she's angry with me for being so far away?"
1) You can't STOP her from doing ANYTHING.
2) You need to stop allowing her -- and yourself -- to use your distance as an excuse to have an affair. Your distance may have contributed to whatever abandonment issues she's going thru in her head, but it does NOT give her the right to have an affair. This oozes thru all of your posts, and I suspect it oozes through your convos and writings with your wife.
3) What you CAN do is let her know that you are not willing to stay married while she IS having an affair, that you love her, and that you want to fight for, and work on, your marriage.
We can all share specific ideas with you about daily actions, etc., but until you lose this "excusing her affair" thing, we're really not going to get anywhere. You need to put the consequences of this squarely onto her pretty shoulders right now, and then let her squirm and stew with it for awhile.
Learn the fine art of "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Choc.
mcol, you may have covered this already, but were you already active-military when you got married? To what extent did your wife know the drill she was getting into when she decided to take her vows?
Sorry for the repeat if you already covered this.
Choc.
Kind of hard to see that working since she started the EA after she did not think I was sincere about getting out of the Army (10/19/07-I found the email I sent to the Army which she says flipped a switch). She knows that I am getting out but I have said that before. Not sure how to prove it since there are so many months before I am actually out (June 08)
mcol, the burden of proof isn't only on you. Yes, you need to demonstrate, in words and actions, that you're working to remove the obstacles to your reconciliation. Unless there's something you haven't shared with us, you've done that -- earnestly -- with your career.
The burden of proof is also on HER to show that she is at least willing to work on her marriage before she makes the unilateral decision to end it, and throw 20 years away. The first step of that work is to end her affair, and step "1a" is to admit that it IS one.
I don't see her doing that, and you need to put that heat squarely back on her. "Honey, I am doing everything within my power to remove what you have indicated are the biggest obstacles to our future intimacy. You need to do the same, and end the affair, so we can work on this marriage. Let me know what you'd like to do, because I am a patient man, but my patience is not limitless."
You are not putting the accountability onto her, and you have not communicated that your patience has an ending point. You don't have to put a date ON it, but you do need to draw a boundary and communicate that there IS a boundary, and you have to decide for yourself first that you MEAN it, and are willing to tell her to get out.
Choc.
Choc.
choc, just in case mcol is busy and can't respond for a while:
mcol, you may have covered this already, but were you already active-military when you got married? To what extent did your wife know the drill she was getting into when she decided to take her vows? W and I have been married for 8 years. I was in the military for 5 years before I met her so I had time to adjust to the culture of the service. Her indoctrination was leave your family, life and hometown to follow me first to Missouri then to Germany for three years. Thankfully, the last four years we have been in NC but we have still be over two hours away. Her family all seems to not know how to handle W and how she has changed since her dad died. It is pretty tragic actually and a lot of counseling is required.
Thanks, choc, for all the energy and effort you're lending to mcol's sitch. It sound like he's in very good "hands."
What do you guys think about her re-engaging the bill paying functions for me? She paid the power bill...which does not mean she has taken back over but certainly better than "I am dealing with this f***ing account anymore..you can do it." I'm assuming this is the power bill for the house that neither of you are living in?
Oh yeah, and when did she start using the eff word?
Hey guys...day 2 of black ops is successful. Although I must admit I now know what a drug addict must feel like. I spent most of today loafing around the office completely doing nothing. I apologize to the the taxpayers today because they did not get their money's worth. I almost caved when our chorus came to perform for us. They sang Christmas carols that were good and festive but only served to remind me that I was missing my first Christmas with my kids and extended family.
To answer some of the previous posts...
Yes, you need to demonstrate, in words and actions, that you're working to remove the obstacles to your reconciliation. Unless there's something you haven't shared with us, you've done that -- earnestly -- with your career
When I was home a couple of weeks ago, I told her my status have been approved by the Army and I started hunting for jobs online. I also contacted a headhunter that specializes in placing military officers in the corporate sector. However, until I go on leave in June I do not think this will firmly resonate because I have been at the brink before and withdrew my paperwork due to lack of a plan. I am not going to do that this time but she will not believe me simply because I have talked about it so frequently that she sees it as a crying wolf type of scenario.
I don't see her doing that, and you need to put that heat squarely back on her. "Honey, I am doing everything within my power to remove what you have indicated are the biggest obstacles to our future intimacy. You need to do the same, and end the affair, so we can work on this marriage. Let me know what you'd like to do, because I am a patient man, but my patience is not limitless."
She believes that I do not consider the OM to a threat nor that she is having an affair. I owe her a conversation to let her know that so she can be put on notice. Honestly I have been thinking how I am going to respond to her question of why I have not called or emailed. I think I will say or type something like this please send me a slap to the head if you think I am smoking dope...
"I haven't called or IM you because I have been trying to resolve this stuff in my own head. I know that I told you I believe you about you and --- but the truth is I do not. Though you may not have had a physical affair your are certainly in an emotional affair by your own submission that you have turned to him in your darkest hour and he has filled the void of me being gone. I cannot accept that he has taken my place as your confidant in our marriage and you have let that happen. I cannot understand how you could possibly turn to him when it comes to the affairs of our children (bb gun for s8) instead of one of your other family members. Quite frankly, I have not been able to resolve in my own head why you, a strong natured person, has allowed yourself to be lured into this affair. You need to end this immediately and engage your family and me for the support you need to get through these times".
I am sure this will evoke one of two responses from her:
1) I don't care what you think about us because nothing is going on. You have not been here to help with anything and he has and you are making this out to be all my fault (it is) so do whatever you want to do...I am done with this.
2) Extreme anger and rage followed by a rehash of all the topics and reasons why she thinks I suck and she has been abandoned in this relationship
3) Or option 3...cold dead silence, well you believe what you want, I don't care nor do I have feelings for you anymore and I want a D.
Ok..I know I am projecting...thank you Army for making me plan my steps months ahead of time. That is producing a huge flaw in me right now.
I'm assuming this is the power bill for the house that neither of you are living in?
Oh yeah, and when did she start using the eff word?
Yeah this is for the house we don't live in...it would be more expenive to turn power off and re-deposit when I come back than to just leave it on and pay 30 a month to maintain.
She has been using quite a few curse words this year. It is only when she is angry though. Kind of funny that it removes that last safety button inside of her...you can tell she is uncomfortable when she says cuss words but it gives that micro vent she really needs to not totally explode.
Thanks for everything you guys..day 3 dark ops coming up.
Just thought of something that may bear a problem. I have a female co-worker whom W knows. She is my peer in rank and she and I have talked about our individual relationships to each other as a way to vent during this deployment. There are not many other people that I know well enough over here to talk to about what is going on in my M. My roommate has been a great sounding board and I believe the smartest thing to do is stop talking to this other female and only talk to my roommate and a chaplain.
Is there a possibility that my W thinks I am having an EA as well? Naturally, I am not and could stop talking to her this minute but I see this as biting me in the a$$ when the real arguments start rolling.
I am also considering getting an AD over here. I have to stay engaged in the mission over here otherwise people are at risk and this next three months will drag like crazy.
Ya'll thoughts???
I have been blinded by a flash of the obvious. She said during one of our fights a little while ago that she thought that I would not have a problem, given our current troubles, if she dated other people after I returned but was waiting to until the Army let me move out towards the family.
WTFO!!!!! I, of course, responded with total shock and disbelief and said I would have a huge problem with it. I told her that she was still married!!!! I think this goes directly to Choc's statement of I am not willing to live with an open marriage.
Just another interesting bit of information. Thanks everyone for everything thus far.
mcol,
Too wordy, in my opinion.
Better:
"I have not called or IM'd because I've needed to rethink what I'm looking for from our marriage. I'm not happy, and it's obvious you aren't either, and we both know that you're having an affair. I will no longer carry on conversations with you, or work to meet your emotional needs, so long as you're disrespecting our marriage this way. I've thought a lot about this over the past ___ days; I suggest you do the same. I love you; I have to go." (and hang up)
I'm still not understanding why you are allowing her to use your military service as an excuse to pull away from you emotionally and physically, when she knew what your career was when she married you???
However, until I go on leave in June I do not think this will firmly resonate because I have been at the brink before and withdrew my paperwork due to lack of a plan. I am not going to do that this time but she will not believe me simply because I have talked about it so frequently that she sees it as a crying wolf type of scenario.
Now THAT, I agree with. You are all over the road with her, and she frankly probably doesn't know WHAT to expect from you.
Let me ask you a question: who is paying for the infrastructure (computer, ISP, cellphone, etc.) that she is using to carry on her affair?
Choc.
mcol,
Too wordy, in my opinion.
Better:
"I have not called or IM'd because I've needed to rethink what I'm looking for from our marriage. I'm not happy, and it's obvious you aren't either, and we both know that you're having an affair. I will no longer carry on conversations with you, or work to meet your emotional needs, so long as you're disrespecting our marriage this way. I've thought a lot about this over the past ___ days; I suggest you do the same. I love you; I have to go." (and hang up)
I'm still not understanding why you are allowing her to use your military service as an excuse to pull away from you emotionally and physically, when she knew what your career was when she married you???
However, until I go on leave in June I do not think this will firmly resonate because I have been at the brink before and withdrew my paperwork due to lack of a plan. I am not going to do that this time but she will not believe me simply because I have talked about it so frequently that she sees it as a crying wolf type of scenario.
Now THAT, I agree with. You are all over the road with her, and she frankly probably doesn't know WHAT to expect from you.
Let me ask you a question: who is paying for the infrastructure (computer, ISP, cellphone, etc.) that she is using to carry on her affair?
Choc.
I, of course, responded with total shock and disbelief and said I would have a huge problem with it.
Apparently, you don't.
Let me ask you a question: who is paying for the infrastructure (computer, ISP, cellphone, etc.) that she is using to carry on her affair?
She is paying for her cellphone, ISP (now that I know she has her own account); computer was byproduct of her going to school and paid for. New desktop was bought by MIL because our old computer went on fritz. She still has access to our joint account and I have yet to change my direct deposit since kids daycare and house payment are directly linked to these accounts and she has all of the bill paying data.
When I come out of dark..still trying to get past emotional detachment of not talking/IMing every day. Once I do, I will use what you wrote. Thanks!
She said during one of our fights a little while ago that she thought that I would not have a problem, given our current troubles, if she dated other people after I returned but was waiting to until the Army let me move out towards the family.
She was gauging your reaction ... and *hoping* that you would roll over and play dead. She's already actively involved with OM ... at least emotionally ... and she's looking for "permission" from you, her H, so that she can justify what she has already done.
She's lost it, dude. She's an alien right now. It doesn't make sense to us, thank gawd, because we're thinking logically ... and we don't understand illogical behavior. If you sit around right now and try to analyze everything she's doing -- and why she's doing it -- you'll drive yourself crazy.
And that's the reason you gotta do whatever you gotta do for *you*.
Here's the "nut" question that I've always asked anyone in your shoes:
If the way she's being right now is the way she's gonna be, can you live with her? Can you stay married to her? If not, then what do you have to lose by growing a little backbone and telling her you won't tolerate it?
*Worst-case scenario*: You tell her you won't tolerate it, and she tells you to take a hike.
How much worse is that than what you're dealing with right now? It's really not that much different at all, IMHO.
Do what you have to do *for you*. What can you tolerate? What can't you compromise on?
P&DB, et al
I guess you guys are right...what is the worst that could happen? The shock that is associated with losing her is starting to lose its potentcy but still stings...I had a doozy of a dream this morning.
Wanted to shoot this to you guys and get your feedback. This was just before the IM string that made me go dark...
This is from W...
If it gives you any peace at all, talking to you yesterday and knowing that you hear what I am saying even though my own family doesn't is probably the first glimmer of possibility or hope that I have experienced in several months re: our marriage
I think it is a ploy to throw me a bone, keep me engaged and still conduct her business as usual.
I think it is a ploy to throw me a bone, keep me engaged and still conduct her business as usual.
Now that's the smartest thing you've said yet.
PB&Jorwhatever :/,
This COULD be, as you say, her "asking permission." Probably is. But it could also be her hoping he'll step up and defend her -- fight for her. It's hard to say, but the GOOD news for mcol is, his response to either possibility can (and should) still be the same:
Firmness.
My wife told me after she ended her affair, and we were reconciling, that she was, indeed, looking for me to notice her, to fight for her, to admire her and show that I was attracted to her. I asked her how the HELL I was supposed to do that when she was having an affair, and she admitted it was stupid (and wrong), but it IS, nevertheless, what she was looking for from me.
Choc.
Choc-
Whew! I was hoping I would get at least one thing right. Today has been interesting. I actually got to catch up on some much needed sleep. Although I had a very wierd dream about my W and our kids. Sad to say that the sitch is occupying every facet of my being...even my dreams.
Day 3 is progressing smoothly...the concept of living without her, although not my desire, is becoming less foreign as I continue to search for jobs and houses. Had a brief spike of emotion today as I walked in our little shop over here and got the feeling of who will I buy neat little trinkets for if she is gone? Got over it a couple of minutes later when I bought an external hard drive. I am in the process of downloading a bunch of music and movies we have shared over here. If nothing else, I will watch a movie a night to keep my mind off of stuff, employee of the month was effing hysterical. Laughing like that made me feel whole again. That is who I am...I had forgotten temporarily.
Actually came to work looking for a challenge from my duties...it didn't happen but that is ok, in my world no activity is a blessing.
I take comfort that my W cannot pursue any legal action until I get home. She will have 3 extra months of guilt with me having the upper hand.
Have a great weekend and a Merry Christmas.
mcol-
I hate to hijack your thread, but I was hoping I could convince ChocolateEyes to come over to mine. I've read your posts on Bombadiers thread and I'd like advice.
I'm here on Infidelity....Get Me on a Smoother Ride..Need Advice.
If you have time, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you-
Have a good day mcol.
SueS
Sue...I have been blessed to have choc in my corner and he is a great person/resource unfortunately due to his experiences.
No worries on my end.
...it could also be her hoping he'll step up and defend her -- fight for her. It's hard to say, but the GOOD news for mcol is, his response to either possibility can (and should) still be the same
Yep. I think it's actually not an either-or scenario. It's actually, I'm thinking, the exact same thing. Right now, while she's in her "wrong" mind, she's asking permission. Once she snaps back into reality, she'll realize that what she *really* (albeit likely subconsciously) wanted was for her H to fight for her.
mcol, remember this: the hardest thing you'll ever have to do is nothing at all.
I'm glad you're finding things that are occupying your mind.
We're all thinking of you ... and wish you could be surrounded by family and love this Christmas. Know we're there with you in spirit.
Love,
Peanut-Butter&Jelly
Thanks PBJ ((((((HUGS)))))...you are not the only one. I had actually wondered what W was going to do over Christmas with all the issues with family.
Also wondering what she plans on anniversary of dad's death? She says that when I asked what the family was going to do to remember him she said something like "did you think we would forget?" It is good that I did not hear her say it or I would have gone ballistic.
I am glad that S,D,S will be spending time with my parents during death anniversary. Will give the family time to grieve without little ones running around. This could be a good chance for her to get some of her grief out...now of course if OM is there it could also push her closer into his arms (hurl) since he will be supporting her.
Although, I did send some flowers to the whole family so maybe that will squelch a little of the confusion he can induce. The guy in me wants about 15 minutes alone with that $hithead.
Also wondering if she put my name on the gifts to kids. Seeing as how we did not talk about what she was getting them at all nor any plans for Christmas. The only thing I knew was how much she spent since that was a point of contention for us.
Been reading a letter from SIL to her and W response where she said as far as emotions go I was as good as dead to her. WTF does that mean? She is the one who put the wall up when I left to prevent having to lose me. Her walls took over her emotions and prevented me from getting through to her??!!!??? I know she is loopy but that really hurts.
***CONTACT*** W just emailed me saying D3 was going to the doc to get her toenail worked on. Interesting she would email me for that yet nothing else. I will likely call to talk to D but not much for W. Will let you know what happens.
So I tried to call three times but could not get through. Not sure if she pushed me to her voicemail...would not surprise me.
I did get to leave a message but accidentally said "Love you" at the end of the message. This has been something we have said at the end of all of our convo until we started with our issues. In a way it is robotic but I really did not want to say it as the book says it only forces her into a hole.
I will send her a note telling her I could not get through. I did talk to MIL and told her I had not spoken to W in a couple of days. I will call MIL tomorrow to talk to S and D.
Still feel that dark is the way to go. I will get an update from D tomorrow on her doctor's appointmnet...not sure if I should call W as this is about D and nothing to do with us. Your thoughts?
All,
Just doing some digging to see what was going on and came across this post on my W my space page...will someone please pass the tissues...
"I am not exactly feeling sentimental about the whole military and the deployment, but this touched even ME. And it reflects my childrens' Christmas list. As you watch, may I reiterate that I hate that Mike's choice of a career has taken him away from my children this year?..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKNRg8PXxgk
mcol: That myspace message, and the video, is about as close to a "baby step" as you can come, being so far away.
I don't want you to get your hopes up -- and then do something stupid. I think you're doing such a great job. But I wanna pass along the following story to you:
I was by myself for four months when my H left. I was here, on these boards, and I was reading *every* infidelity/self-help/restore M books that I could find at Barnes&Noble. In short, I was doing *everything* I could to save my M.
When my H came home, I was expecting to hear how my attitude, behavior, etc. had influenced his decision to come back to me.
Instead, he told me, a movie that he was watching with OW just a few days earlier is what sealed the deal. Apparently after watching that movie, some lightbulb came on. He said he cried the entire night, and the next morning, he told OW that he was returning to his W and family -- if we would have him.
He rented that movie the first night he was home so that I could watch it. Honestly, I still for the life of me can't figure out what about that movie "spoke" to him. But that's not for me to determine. When he and I watched it that night, he cried like a baby. And I mean, like a baby.
Sometimes, it takes something like that -- a movie or a video -- to get our alien spouses to think.
In the meantime, we have to continue doing what we can do to help ourselves. You going dark, if nothing else, is keeping you from having to hear her sh!t. Accept the video/myspace message as a "God-wink," or a "baby step," or a small miracle. And don't ruin that for yourself by calling your W. Call your D when she's away from W to ask about the doc. appt.
That's just my .05 (inflation, ya know).
Keep it up.
I did get to leave a message but accidentally said "Love you" at the end of the message. This has been something we have said at the end of all of our convo until we started with our issues. In a way it is robotic but I really did not want to say it as the book says it only forces her into a hole.
mcol-
I don't think there's anything wrong with the occassional ILY. I did it just this morning. To my surprise, H said it back. I think it might have been a slip on his part, but that's okay. I hadn't said it in a long time and feel like I should pop it in there from time to time.
SueS
mcol-
I hate to hijack your thread, but I was hoping I could convince ChocolateEyes to come over to mine. I've read your posts on Bombadiers thread and I'd like advice.
I'm here on Infidelity....Get Me on a Smoother Ride..Need Advice.
If you have time, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you-
Have a good day mcol.
SueS
Sue,
I tried, but I didn't realize that you have NINE loooong threads already going. My personal and work life is such right now that I really don't have time to try to go back and catch up on all of that. If there's a specific question you had, I'd be happy to try to answer it?
Sorry,
Choc.
Choc-
I understand. I'll try to get a couple brief questions for you. H is having an A (PA) and I haven't outed it to anyone yet. H denies it to me, but I've seen evidence. Just wanted your opinion on telling OW's H about it. He's getting suspicious, but I think I know A LOT more than he does!
Have a great holiday.
-SueS
mcol: That myspace message, and the video, is about as close to a "baby step" as you can come, being so far away.
You going dark, if nothing else, is keeping you from having to hear her sh!t. Accept the video/myspace message as a "God-wink," or a "baby step," or a small miracle. And don't ruin that for yourself by calling your W. Call your D when she's away from W to ask about the doc. appt.
That's just my .05 (inflation, ya know).
Keep it up.
Thanks..I was thinking that some kind of ice crystal (even the smallest one) in that section of her heart was melting as a result of that. Thank God to whatever person here either sent her that or if she surfed it herself. May have been the catalyst for her telling me about D3 appt.
I woke up in the middle of the night again, my dreams have been overflowing of W and kids. Tried to IM her but thankfully she was away. I will continue to stay dark for a while to stay away from her BS, however, with Christmas coming I know we will talk in the next few days. I will try to keep it light hearted although I know it will be very hard for W with her dad not being there. Compound that with the anniversary of his death 3 days later and I am sure the rage or deadness against me will return. Also, this will give OM a chance, once again, to be knight in shining armor and physically be there for her so she does not have to "cry alone"....effing Army.
Hey, Mcol!
What you're dealing with now is the reason I don't like the "my spouse has been taken over by aliens" line (though I used to
). An alien implies that she's somebody completely else from who she really is as a human. The reality is that she's very confused, she's occasionally/often under the influence of some very powerful brain chemicals, and she lost touch with or is mistrustful of her core values. She's not *all* different. She's not going to inhabit a consistent mindset; she'll vacillate, sometimes wildly. She doesn't have an easy life with her H gone, three young children to tend, the stress of the holidays and dealing with the anniversary of the untimely death of her father on top of it all. She deserves a lot of compassion and you're right to give it to her.
***HOWEVER!***
None of that justifies an affair and you can't give any indication that it does. She has appropriate people available to support her, including you. She doesn't get to have inappropriate support from inappropriate people because she's having a rough time. She's *creating* a rough time for others...I know you haven't enjoyed your recent lack of sleep and inability to focus (oh yes, I remember the bad old days).
While her thoughts and emotions are careening all over the place, yours need to be rock steady (in your interactions with her...of course your thoughts and emotions are going to be all over the place and that's why you have us as well as other parts of your support network). What's your cornerstone?
You love her. You want to remain married. You're willing to fight for your current marriage and you're willing to work to improve your future marriage.
You won't tolerate infidelity, physical or emotional. You won't remain in marriage with a third person involved. You have patience but your patience is not infinite. If she asks how much patience you have tell her, "I don't know but you don't want to push me that far." If she asks what that means you tell her, "I love you and I love our family. I want us all to be together. I won't tolerate infidelity. That's all I'm going to say about it."
I'd like input from the board on Mcol going dark. My feeling is that when he gets to the point where he can emotionally handle the mindset I've outlined and maintain it in the face of adversity from his W, there's no need to be dark. Going dark is to allow your wayward spouse to miss you and also to ensure you won't engage in needy, emotionally pushy conversations about the R. Since he's so far away, having the chance to miss him doesn't seem much of a factor and if he can be contained and confident, I think talking to her would mostly be beneficial. I'd also like to see him take advantage of any opportunity for her to see him as a warrior out in the field, even though she appears anti-Army at the moment. It may be emotionally disquieting to her, but it's also attractive and he's not going to be there forever.
Choc, what's a good plan for Mcol as far as handling the EA/PA? You've said before he probably needs more evidence before confronting her again, but confrontation seems like an important part of this process. Ideally he'd be in a position to observe her behavior himself and install a keylogger but that's not going to work where he's at. Does he need to again consider using a PI?
Mcol, let's see what we can do to get your head together. Remember when I mentioned your frame and detachment from outcome? Let's talk about frame for a bit.
Think about what your frame was like before this started going down. You probably saw you and your W raising a beautiful family, growing old together, retiring early, enjoying your grandchildren and reminiscing about the picture perfect, All American life the two of you had led. Or something like that.
You had certain hopes, dreams and ambitions for yourself and your children. You had various plans festering in the back of your mind. Your frame consisted of all this stuff, much of it subconscious.
Then you got a couple of bombshells from your W and your frame was *severely* threatened. Your first reaction (like all of us, believe me) was to try and hold your frame together, whatever it took. It helps us to believe we have control so initially we love to take the blame. If the blame is ours and we fix our problem, then boom...our life is back on track and our frame remains intact. Some of us get stuck in that mode for a long time: "Yes, I was horrible! No wonder you're having an affair; I don't blame you at all! I'd be having an affair, too, if I was you and was married to me! But check this out...I'm working on myself, I'm fixing my issues, soon I'll be cured! Then you'll have no need for this wonderful OP who has shown me the error of my ways and we can be together forever with our children! Won't life be perfect again?!"
All that is rationalization to try and hold our precarious frame together. Of course, our frame never did reflect actual reality (don't make me get philosophical) and it sure as hell doesn't reflect the current reality.
The sooner you can reframe your sitch and the more closely you can make it reflect reality, the more you'll be able to detach from outcome and the more you'll increase your chance of success. And the calmer you'll be. That's always nice.
So what should your new frame look like? Well, what are the facts on the ground and what can we reasonably or usefully assume from them? Your W has asked for a divorce and wanted the separation backdated (if I get a fact wrong, feel free to straighten me out). You can safely assume that there's a possibility you'll be divorced in a year. Put that in your frame. There are a lot of downsides to being divorced, especially when you have children. But it's survivable. Lesser men than you have survived and thrived after a divorce. Start saying this to yourself a lot: "I can handle it." Your thoughts will throw all kinds of negative possibilities at you because our thoughts are wusses and detest uncertainty. They want us to take the course that's safest *for the immediate moment* at all times. The more you tell yourself you can handle whatever comes and the more you believe it (because it's true...the great majority of the time, people handle whatever comes at them, even people the rest of us don't think much of), the quieter your Chicken Little thoughts will become. There was a time in my sitch when my thoughts were screaming at me in the middle of the night, "YOU'RE GOING TO BE BANKRUPT AND IN PRISON!!! AND SHE DID THIS TO YOU!!!" As long as I tried to figure out how I was going to avoid those unpleasantries, I tossed and turned. When I finally told myself, "You know, if that happens, you'll survive. Eventually you'll be free and you'll have a job. But she'll still be her." I still didn't get much sleep that night but I was calmer and felt much better the next day, and from then on. (The part about her still being her was gratuitous, I admit, but it helped.
)
(I'm going to post this so I don't accidentally lose it, and continue subsequently.)
(continuing on...)
So part of your frame is that you might be divorced. You'll be with your kids only some of the time and a lot of things that you take for granted now will become a pain in the butt. Sucks, but survivable. You can still make a great life out of that for yourself and your children. Don't fight the possibility. Accept it as part of your frame.
Another possibility is that your W gives up her affair (sooner or later) and your family reunites. That's great, especially for your kids, but you and your W will have to do a lot of work to repair the damage that's accumulated in your M and to strengthen your M going into the future. Your new frame doesn't get to have an easy path. If tomorrow your W renounced her affair and the Army let you out and flew you home, your life would still be harder than it looked in the frame you used to have. That's not fair nor is it unfair; that's just life. It's only good or bad to the extent that you make it good or bad.
If you can reframe your sitch like that, you can detach from outcome. Sure, you still have a preference of how you'd like things to go but whatever happens, you can handle it. When you're detached from outcome you can act without fear of any particular outcome which maximizes your chances of obtaining the outcome you prefer. "Maximizes your chances of" is a long way from "guarantees". Acting from fear, though, is almost always the road to disaster. When your W is threatening to leave you, you fear upsetting her because that will want to make her leave you more. And it probably does in the moment. In the long run, upsetting her in order to be your authentic self ("I will not tolerate infidelity") increases the chance she'll return.
Detach from outcome. No panicking. You can handle it. There's a way you want to live your life in the future with your family and you believe it's a good way. You would like your wife to join your in your vision and you'll give her every opportunity to do that. But you can't require her to and you don't *want* to require her to. You want her to join you willingly. Maybe she's too confused right now to make that choice. Maybe she's not confused and that's not the choice she wants to make. Maybe she's confused but so stubborn that she won't change her mind when she gets unconfused. *You have no idea what's going on in her head.* Don't try to guess. Note what she does and says with interest. Do more of what works. If it stops working, do something else. Detach from outcome.
As much as you can, look on this process like a science experiment. You'd like the experiment to result in her return to your family. You're going to do the things that maximize that possibility. If she doesn't take that path, that's still good information. It means she wasn't suitable for you. Doesn't make her bad, just unsuitable. Your life will still succeed.
I know thinking like that is a tall order. Do your best and don't beat yourself up if you slip; you need that energy to get back on the path as quickly as possible.
You can do it. You have it in you.
Ok...so I came out of the dark long enough to IM my W and ask about D appointment with the doctor.
She said it went terribly but it is over. I have to tell you that my daughter has one of the loudest cries known to man so I am sure that squirming, squealing and crying were the order of the afternoon. Given my W emotional state, I am sure she was freaking out as well, probably hollering at D which did nothing to help the sitch at the doctor's office. They had to freeze the roots on D's toenail...poor thing. Like father, Like Daughter. S8 has to get the same thing done shortly so I am sure that will go equally as well.
Rest of the IM was small talk and I asked her a simple are you OK. W said she was fine and that was the end of it. A pretty uneventful and limp IM session but at least she knows I am still alive (although not sure she cared much tonight).
Oh well friends, back to darkness for a while. I will call on Christmas, which is sure to be a trying time for all of them without her dad or me there. If you have not done so already...looks a couple of posts up and check out the you tube link that was on W my space page...holy tearjerker Batman.
Rest well friends...tis the season!
Choc-
I understand. I'll try to get a couple brief questions for you. H is having an A (PA) and I haven't outed it to anyone yet. H denies it to me, but I've seen evidence. Just wanted your opinion on telling OW's H about it. He's getting suspicious, but I think I know A LOT more than he does!
Have a great holiday.
-SueS
Sue,
Absolutely, expose to the OW's husband. Don't you think he deserves to know?
a) He deserves to know.
b) It will help put pressure on the affair.
c) It will show your husband you're fighting for the marriage.
d) It's the right thing to do.
If you want, post your e-mail address, and we can e-mail about my experiences with confrontation and exposure.
Choc.
Hey mcol.....how long you deployed for? I am in the Stan Land also....The Kyrgi type. I've got 10 and a wake up to go and I'm done here.....4 months finally over.....
How are you holding up?
We call this place......MAN ASS....heard of it?
FA...great to hear from you brother. I have just under 100. I have been through Man A$$ and you can keep it. Throw a snow ball at some wiley person up there. I have to say I wish I were in the AF sometimes...you guys know just how long to deploy for. When I am done I will have tripled the length of your deployment.
Just a quick update for everyone...
Christmas has come and gone and this one has been crappier than any other. Not only am I have issues in my marriage, but I am deployed. I ate Christmas lunch alone, watched White Christmas (tradition) in my room and pretty much just prayed for the day to push on so I could go back to a normal schedule.
W and I are trying to work through our issues. We IM each other frequently but there is still the uncomfortable air of everything going on. Not sure what is going to happen when I get back but I know that I must keep S,D,S in the forefront so that I do not go out of my flipping mind.
Not sure if you all can relate but the worst times for me are when I am trying to fall asleep or in a light sleep. It seems that everything that I have repressed or manage to push into my subconsious (fear, anger, dread etc) all come back like a tidal wave. Sometimes I am almost forced into the fetal position with these feelings, it is dumb and awful all at the same time. Then as if I am pulled out of everything, I am able to regain control and it all goes away.
Trying to keep W engaged on the IM, although I am not pushy, clingy or anything...just talking about stuff.
Struggling with trying not to project but also trying to plan ahead for the future outside of the green suit. Holy mind wrecking batman. The military sure is a cushy job for those who don't mind getting deployed or all the other stupid crap we go through. However, in the best interest of my family and myself I am separating. We will see how it goes.
Hope you guys are rounding out a good Christmas break and you are somewhere between sugar plums dancing in your head and watching reindeer leap over fences. That means, I hope you are all sleeping well.
I will admit, I am confused about my sitch and not sure what is going to happen, but I know it will not get better unless I choose to do something about it.
Not sure if you all can relate but the worst times for me are when I am trying to fall asleep or in a light sleep. It seems that everything that I have repressed or manage to push into my subconsious (fear, anger, dread etc) all come back like a tidal wave. Sometimes I am almost forced into the fetal position with these feelings, it is dumb and awful all at the same time. Then as if I am pulled out of everything, I am able to regain control and it all goes away.
mcol- Yes, I think a lot of us can relate. It's tough, especially when you're alone. My H is at home with me, but he's not talking much. I lay there by myself and my mind floods with things that I don't want to think about. I understand the fetal position too. Sometimes it seems like the only way to stop all the emotions. I'm happy to hear that you and your W are communicating. That's great!
I hope the New Year brings much better thoughts and sounder sleep.
SueS
mcol- Here I am hijacking your thread again.
I wasn't sure how to get in touch with Choc. I wanted to give Choc. my email address so I can talk to him about exposing the A.
My email is sasierzega1 at gmail . com.
I know I have 9 threads, but I can send you a brief overview of my sitch!
Thanks!
SueS
Hey, mcol. Aren't you glad Christmas is over?
What is the "uncomfortable air of everything going on" that you're referring to? Are the IM sessions with your W lifting your spirits? Does communication with her seem to be better? Any idea where her R with OM currently stands?
Wow Burgbud. Just wow. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out. I know you meant to help mcol, but boy.wow.amazing. You are brilliant, put together and a very good writer. Thank you so much.
mcol, I am sure your Christmas was much tougher than most, being in marriage turmoil, deployed and missing your family. I know what you mean about wanting to push forward through the day. And I hear ya on the sleep issues, big time. HUGS!
What is the "uncomfortable air of everything going on" that you're referring to? Are the IM sessions with your W lifting your spirits? Does communication with her seem to be better? Any idea where her R with OM currently stands?
The uncomfortable air I refer to is the post bombshell of the things we have been through so far. I cannot help but still feel so screwed up about the whole sitch because I did not see it coming. My whiny word, which will likely annoy most people is unfair!!! I was blindsided to say the least and yet for her, this is part of some plan that is so warped and convoluted I cannot even begin to tell you how jacked up I am.
I cautiously approach every IM session with the expectation to get cussed out for something she has thought about since our last conversation. Although we have not fought in a while, I know she is seething just below the surface. Our contact is limited to IM these days because in my opinion it gives us the chance to think about what we are going to say as we type it. We also do not have to deal with the lag in a phone line that can totally jack everything up. I guess communication is communication no matter what form.
Combine all that with the fact that she dreaded the holidays due to the issues inside of her own family and her dad not being around and you get one big messy can of worms. I am trying to be sensitive, which I am sure has made me seem like a pushover again, but I cannot help but feel as though being stiff and rigid right now will win me any favor. I know I am wrong in that assumption but by trying to be the way I am I rationalize that to mean an extended timeline on getting the damn separation paperwork and more time on the IM to engage her with the issues we are facing.
You would be proud of me, the other day while IM she told me that she was hurting for money because she got a ballooned student loan payment and my transferring money out of the account spoiled her plan for Christmas gifts. A plan that I had no concept of whatsoever and a plan I really did not give a crap about at the time as I thought I was going to have to put a lawyer on retainer and hire a PI. Since then I have transferred all of the money minus what I spent on family Christmas gifts (to include hers) back to the account, to include a $1000 deposit on Christmas eve. She initially told me that things were the way they were and why bother transferring money now as it would not do her any good for Christmas...I simply said that I was not asking for her permission to return the money...she snidely replied "and I guess I don't need to give it" my backbone felt strong then. However, part of me thinks she is going to use this money to pay the lawyer for the sep agreement which I am not anxious to see.
Some of our IM sessions, just aren't. As to my dark status there was no missing me. She said that when I used to call every day she would just get mad at me and when I don't call then she just forgets about me...WTF!!! Early last week we had a blow out on IM in which she told me that I was emotionally removed again from her life and everything that is going on, my response...who removed me? I mentioned the fact that her dad had always said the Divorce was not an option, a mantra that we often repeated to others including her brother and one I hold firm in my heart. Her response...look what happened to my dad. My response, "so all of the good advice and words to remember him by died with him?" She did not say anything on that one.
The only problem with IM is that it gives us both a written record of the things we have said. Not a bad thing for rememberance but not a good thing when stupid lawyers get involved. She has already mentioned that she forwarded some of my emails to the attorney doing the sep and that they said she should just let me keep making the mistakes. The attorney's daughter said that my hastiness in transferring the funds out of our account and cutting off the power of attorney would only make a judge question my motives....BS!!! That is where I am glad that two sides of the story will come in to play if need be.
As to the OM, some of our IM session are noticeably void of contact for minutes at a time which I attribute to her typing him or other friends. We have talked about him, I caved on telling her to stop the A, and again she reiterates that their is nothing going on. Although, she says he is a very intelligent, kind and soft hearted person who would much rather help someone than hurt them. Ok, whatever. I have not locked horns with her because simply, she will just go out of sight, out of mind again and I will be back to square one.
Today is the anniversary of her dad's death and I think she may be having lunch with him prior to going to the mountains...but he is not going with her that is for sure. Whatever, I have had two major realizations in the last few weeks that give me strength 1)Life without her is doable, although really crappy to think about. 2) My kids deserve the best father I can be and the love that I am wasting on my W deaf ears needs to be redirected at the them. I wish there was an emotional bank we could deposit into for them because if this thing goes down the road to the big D then they will need every ounce of comfort and support they can get. It chokes me up every day when I think about having to tell them...which is projecting, I know.
LWB...thanks for the hugs..I need them right now. I never thought I would say this but THANK GOD Christmas is over. I have a tentative flight date for March but W reaction (as always), I'll believe it when I see it. The sad thing is that 99% of the time she is right as the effing Army cannot stick to plans which mean so much.
In the meantime..the job/house hunt continue. Hope you all are doing well...time to start making out those New Year's resolutions!
Got to share a funny incident from last night.
W has a girlfriend of hers who is also friends with OM. OM and this girl knew each other long before W and OM linked up. W asked me to start IMing Krys because other girl wants to find a military guy. Other girl knows about the sitch with W and I. Well I guess OM found out that other girl and I were talking and ASSUMED that I was trying to get dirt on W. Long story short, he showed his ass and flamed other girl treating her like crap. She was furious and has such a good disposition about W and I...she has stayed out of it, although she knows about us. Not only that but she still talks to me when I am sure the one side that she heard was very disparaging. She acknowledged that there are always two sides to every story and she said that OM knows the line and she believes he has crossed it, duh. So there is discord in W's circle of new friends which is sort of humorous to me but also a little disturbing as these are the few people she has confided in. Now that is jacked up. Not sure if this will reflect back on me or what...I personally don't care.
I tried to stay out of it. I have offered to talk to OM to hear what he has to say and ironically W has not revealed his screenname. I am not snooping to find it either. I told W to pass a quote, "I have never asked other girl to spy on W and I have never spied on W. I will be more than happy to hear what you have to say if you want to add me to your list." I mean that. If he has something to say to me then I want to hear it because then W will not have him as a confidant anymore..someone to turn to. He just needs to be prepared for what is coming back from my side.
As for W and I, things are progressing. I feel like every IM is a chance to explore a closed off area. I mentioned to her the other day that I am not as nervous bringing up touchy subjects. I used to feel and still do to a certain extent, that talking hard stuff will push her away. However, she said that she would rather me ask her than try to ask her family. I did get frustrated last night because when the whole other girl and OM thing blew up, they were IMing with each other at about the same time W and I had started to talk about serious stuff. I told W that while I did not want be pushy, I also felt like when we were talking serious stuff that she should make our conversation a priority. Or at a minimum tell me she is busy and not leave me hanging. She apologized and will try. I guess that is all I can hope for.
I have often laughed at my use of AOL lately. I have this powerhouse software and all I really do is play one game, check some email and IM. But, as it has allowed me to reconnect with W I guess beggars cannot be choosers.
Oh by the way....HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
MCol,
It's only 11:05 not yet.........
manuel
Not sure if this will reflect back on me or what...I personally don't care.
Just an observation, but it sounds like you do.
I told W to pass a quote, "I have never asked other girl to spy on W and I have never spied on W.
There is nothing wrong with snooping if you do it to confront and expose an affair, as a first step to saving a marriage and a family. Are you saying that you have made a promise to your wife never to snoop on her? Have you given up on trying to get proof of their affair, so that you can confront her with it?
If he has something to say to me then I want to hear it because then W will not have him as a confidant anymore..someone to turn to. He just needs to be prepared for what is coming back from my side.
What, specifically, is going to be your position with him if you have the opportunity? Have you thought it through?
As for W and I, things are progressing. I feel like every IM is a chance to explore a closed off area. I mentioned to her the other day that I am not as nervous bringing up touchy subjects. I used to feel and still do to a certain extent, that talking hard stuff will push her away. However, she said that she would rather me ask her than try to ask her family.
This is good, that you are "losing the fear" of broaching difficult subjects with your wife. But as long as the motivation to "not push her away" is the strongest one, you will not make much progress. I know it's difficult (I am the WORLD'S biggest conflict avoider!!), but you need to push thru the fear of making your wife mad, and be brutally honest with her. She is waiting for you to do that. She won't LIKE it when you do, but she is waiting for it, in my opinion.
btw, she is looking for you to promise not to talk to her family about these things. My wife did the exact same thing. "This is our private business" is a common mantra of infidels. Affairs HATE the light of day shone upon them. You don't need to go airing all of your daily dirty laundry to them, but there is NOTHING wrong with exposing specific things to them, if you feel they will help support the marriage. A good position can be "I'm not going to go seeking them out about everything, but they're concerned about your inappropriate relationship as much as I am, and they're trying to help." And, "If asked, I will not lie to them about what I know. Frankly, there's been TOO MUCH lying and secrecy going on around here lately."
Happy New Year!!! Be safe.
Choc.