Run with me through rows of Speeding Cars

[believing_isaiah43]

Hi, ya'll. I feel a bit like I need to post about my life in Piecing, and yet here is where I started lurking - for obvious reasons - and where I feel I "know" the wise and strong posters in this forum, and yet none of you know me. I'll try to do this in a nutshell, but it's got some crazy twists so please bear with me as I try to make it understandable.

Me: 39
formerly WAH: 40 next month
D6
S5
Married: 10 years, together for same. We met and married (eloped!) very quickly.
Multiple Bombs: December 2005 ("We need to separate"/ A discovery/ H was fired from job b/c of A/ and b/c I turned him in -ouch- worked in a Christian organization where you just don't do that and keep your job)

H's job had him traveling extensively over a third of the year for the last 5 years. Our marriage had been getting progressively worse during that time. He was pursuing me for a 'real' relationship, and I was defensive, controlling, passive/aggressive, just in complete denial about what a good marriage needed to be/looked like. Long nasty childhood, blah blah. I pushed and pushed him away emotionally, and he turned off the physical and stayed up late every night and never came to bed with me at the same time (we are opposite male/female stereotypes); these were the 2 big stalemates in our marriage.

Turns out he has had a business relationship/friendship with OW (also married with children) in a state waaaay across the country from us for the last 4 years, would see her for several weeks once a year when he was over there for business, sporadic emails throughout the year, and it turned 'personal' friendship (sharing too much info re: lives/marriages) around Nov 2004, became a 'sudden' EA around Nov/Dec 2005, and I stumbled upon it (emails) as it was 'becoming' in early December. I 'watched' it unfold via emails (hacked his personal email account after the 'we need to separate' phone call while he was away), found one 'inappropriate' email, forwarded it to his boss (emotional reaction encouraged by boss' wife, my friend. my first mistake). EA still had not become PA yet.

I fly out there to fight for my marriage within 2 days of discovery, and yet do not tell H that I know anything about OW, or that I have told his job and it's now in jeopardy. My own misguided fear that he should come back 'on his own' and not out of guilt from being 'caught'. Bear with my stupidity, I am in a panicked, haven't-eaten-or-slept-for-days fog of the worst sort at this time. Can't (and won't) see this error clearly for a month or more. Trip and ensuing discussion with H a complete disaster (he was too mad at me by then, and far gone) and I fly home the next day. STILL not having told him, 'hey who is this chick, and guess what? your job knows about her too.' Meanwhile (unbeknownst to me until much later), his company is pulling emails, and all correspondence he's ever had with OW, and building their case. All based on my little forwarded email. And NOT confronting him either, just behind the scenes stuff.

SO: 2 days after I fly home, EA becomes PA (again 'watched' as it unfolded via emails. OMGosh, it's still hard to think about this now). Only one time, but once is enough thankyouverymuch. "Misses" his plane home the next day, has to take the red-eye flight home, where he is met at work by 3 higher-ups and an interrogation. Sent home, crying, (calling her on the way) to tell me of the A. Swears it is over, that he 'wants to love' me like he used to, etc.

Within a day, that attitude is gone, and he is emailing OW into the wee hours of every night about how much he loves her and just doesn't love me anymore; she is the perfect woman, that was the best night of his life, all kinds of sexual stuff, etc. YA'LL. DON'T SNOOP; God, I would get up at 4 am every night during this time, and print them out (since he wanted to leave me, I thought I was getting evidence). Now that we are trying to work it out, THOSE WORDS he wrote haunt me - no matter how he renounces them now. They fall on me like a swarm of bees some days, and I can't breathe from the pain of remembering them so vividly. Snooping will get in the way of your future reconciliation efforts; just makes it that much harder of a hurdle to get over. Please trust me here. It sux to have those words etched in my soul. Plus I started to get deceived that perhaps THEY were meant to be together since they were friends for so long first, and we just met and fell madly in love quickly w/o a base of strong friendship first. This is what my friend calls "feeding the bad dog". If you have 2 dogs against each other, which one will win? The one you feed. You need to feed the 'good' dog (spiritual, emotional well being) vs. the 'bad' dog (obsessing over the affair partner, comparing yourself, etc). I still struggle with feeding the right dog.

Anyway, he's fired 12/20 (Merry Christmas), friends turn their back on him, and he now continues a phone/email relationship with this chick IN MY HOUSE until 1/24. The worst month of my life. PLUS he finds out (not from me) that I turned him in AND knew about it all along AND never confronted him. Is "done" with me, doesn't love me, "will never love" me again.

I can't move out, b/c in my state that's Abandonment, and I can't make him leave b/c Hi, he's unemployed, and I've been a stay-at-home mom for 6 years, and we have no income. So I go back to work, as I'm the only employable person in my household right now, in our small town.

Okay, I'm winding down (just worked a 12hr shift today, and am pooped!), so I'll finish the story later...
THUS ENDS PART ONE of my little saga. If you've read this far, I thank you for joining me and I'll leave you with some lyrics from a new Imogen Heap song that I play on repeat constantly on my iPod:

Here's the day you hoped would never come
Don't feed me violins just run
with me
Through rows of Speeding Cars

The paper cuts
The cheating lovers
The coffee's never strong enough
I know you think it's more than just bad luck

There, there baby, it's just textbook stuff
It's in the ABC of growing up
Now, now darling, oh don't lose your head
'Cause none of us were angels
And you know I love you, yeah

[RBinBR]

Wow! What great start to getting everyone fascinated in your sitch. I can't wait to read more.

[GratefulMama0204]

Say it isn't so... tell me more

[MonicaP]

Hi Believing,

Thanks for what you said about being deceived into thinking THEY are meant to be. I wonder (obsess) about that too. And I like the analogy of feeding the right dog I'm working on it. I'm curious about the rest of your story...

[deezee]

Is your new career as a writer? You're goooood at hooking the reader.......

[believing_isaiah43]

I know I shouldn't be surprised, but thanks so much for your generous encouragement to continue with my saga. I've seen ya'll post such support to each other during my lurkdom, and it's nice to be well-received. So thank you. There is nobody, I don't care how empathetic they are, that can really GET the enormity of this stuff except for those who've suffered it too. For that I am so grateful for all of you. It's an exhale of relief to tell this story to those who 'get it'. Although, Lord knows, I'm so sorry we're all here.

I have to say it's quite the undertaking to stop, turn around, and truly look the last 5 months full in the face in my effort to tell ya'll about it, when I've just mainly had my head down trying to plow thru the days without slitting my wrists. Ya'll know.

SO. where were we?

Ah, yes. The fourth Circle of Hell. Let's continue.

So, H has been fired, life as we know it has completely imploded, both inside and outside the marriage. His entire life, my H has been the picture of integrity. No, really. If you were to look it up in Webster's, he would have been pictured next to the definition. Yes, our marriage was rocky and difficult for some time, but never in ten thousand years did I expect this. I actually expected it from myself, had the opportunity presented itself, before I would have from him. I was the one with the high physical desires that were not getting met, and feeling unattractive, undesired, etc. w/in the marriage. If anyone was going to have an A, it should have been me. The irony does not escape me. Hell, I thought the man had low testosterone or something. Um, nope. He's just not digging ME. ouch. And writing words to OW that I would trade YEARS OFF MY LIFE to have had him saying to me all this time. Just yank my heart out and roast it over some charcoal. Same effect.

And let's just get a little snarky about the OW, shall we? Allow me that vent here if you would, b/c I can't do it much elsewhere. He's fired, they're emailing/calling in the wee hours, and she's going to tell her husband. Oh, yes, OF COURSE SHE IS (wink wink). She thinks she'll tell him over Christmas, since they'll both be off work to better work through things. Well, no she didn't tell him over the holidays b/c she didn't want to ruin her family's Christmas. Um, like MINE was? She'll find the right time to tell him....oh, and H's job hasn't told OW's job have they? Can you find out if they are going to tell? Maybe OW should go to counseling with her H, and the A come out then, in a safe environment. Well, no, she's not found a counselor yet. She's just not sure if there's a right time for this, and gee, if my H hadn't been fired maybe he wouldn't have told me, right? OMGosh, SHUT UP already. Ya'll. Is it any surprise to you that it's five months later and OW's H STILL DOESN'T KNOW? What a shock. Could she BE any more selfish? And any time my H emailed her with any remotely positive thoughts about me (esp. nearing the end of their contact), she said 'you know I've always said nothing but positive things about your W, but are you forgetting she's the one who threw you under the bus?' and rile him all up about my behavior. OMGosh, I so hate her. Yeah, still working on that forgiveness thing. Ya'll know.

Somehow, in this crisis I managed to do all the wrong things, but the LORD was/is still on His throne. I cried, cried, cried. Pleaded. Looked pathetic, and then would get mad and be a complete b*tch. Zero to 60 in 5.2 seconds. I was all over the place. Completely freaking out and could not get a handle on it. Then a very dear childhood friend shipped me "Love Must be Tough" - the book by James Dobson, and the CDs from the radio broadcast they had on it. It was my first resource in the Journey of Pulling My Sh*t Together. I highly recommend it to anyone coming apart at the seams over this stuff.

Again, I really take little credit in the U-turn this disaster took. It was all the Lord, and I still do not understand it. H realized that he could not have the destruction of a 2nd family on his head, no matter what happened with ours. He knew he had to get out of the picture of OW's life, and it felt like FOR-EVAH between him knowing that and completely doing something about it. In reality it was maybe two weeks, but I didn't think he would ever break it off, b/c frankly if it were me and I was crazy, wide-open in love with someone else (his words, remember. they still haunt), I would not have had the strength to leave it. no way. I am too selfish, I think. I would have been all "F this, I'm going with who I'm crazy about. damn the torpedoes", which is perhaps why the Lord protected me from being the WAS. I also think it's why God didn't protect H from losing his job. The fact that his ENTIRE LIFE was ruined beyond recognition played a huge part in getting H's attention.

The breaking-off process initially looked exactly like the A, frankly, up every night emailing. But then it got surreal. He would come to bed, wake me up and tell me a little about what was happening, "it's getting closer" etc. Leaving out the fact that there was still sexy talk, etc. that I knew about. By now, they had each switched email accounts twice, since my master hacking abilities were now public knowledge, and were completely confident that they were 'speaking' in private. Fools. I had a kick-*ss program installed on H's computer that logged his keystrokes, sent me screenshots, and logged every website he visited. Again, though, let me reiterate: DON'T SNOOP. That crap will drag down your reconciliation efforts. I am Exhibit A of that case.

Ya'll. This is draining, reliving the saga. Let's pause again for another day (or more, I work night shift this week. groan), and I'll leave you with some more lyrics from a song I love, "Reasons Why" by Nickel Creek:

Where am I today? I wish that I knew
Looking around, there's no sign of you

I don't remember one jump or one leap,
Just quiet steps away from me

I'm holding my heart out, and clutching it too,
The feeling is short of the love that we once knew

Calling this a home when it's not even close,
Playing the role with nerves left exposed

Standing on a darkened stage, stumbling through the lines
Others have excuses, I have my Reasons Why

[always_14]

WOW. First, happy mom's day.

Sorry about your saga of the past 7 months. Same time as mine. It's rough and takes every living breath out of you, it's a very special kind of hell. Come check me out in Piecing if you like.

So, where are you now? You said reconciling? Good for you. It's damn tough. How are you with it? So the A is tailing or over?

How are you doing? Health? Emotions? What are you doing to detach and take a breather? If he's still ending things and being weird about it, it's important to realize that you're not fully in reconciliation yet, and are still in detachment mode. Stay detached, if only to protect yourself and protect the little compassion you might still have left for H...you'll need that for the reconciliation and forgiveness part.

It's been a tough road, and will probably have tougher bends soon. Hang in there.

Something that you wrote in your original post that's wise to remember when you're feeling like falling in the deep pit of "why is this happening to me, this hurts like HELL." You mentioned that H DID approach you for a real M before, repeatedly, and you pushed him back. I DID THE SAME. I keep this in mind now. I look back at my behaviors and wonder "who in the WORLD was that b*tch? ME??!! How could I have acted like that and why didn't I wake up sooner?" Well....you didn't, neither did I. H's tried, waited, tried again. Then they moved on.

Now, it's OUR turn to try, wait and try again while they lift from a weird fog.

It's hard for me to think about my pain without thinking of H's. It's hard to believe that 2 people could hurt each other so badly especially after how crazy in love we were when we married. Ugh.

Hang in there...lots of pain all around...you'll be sifting for a while.. you can do this.

[believing_isaiah43]

Thanks A14, our lives are parallel. I completely agree with you about the what-was-i-thinking, who-was-the-b*itch-that-was-me stuff. Unbelievable. and sadder than anything that it took this for me to finally wake up and smell the French roast. I really don't think anything else was going to lift my blinders, and that makes me sick.

Yes, H is completely out of the affair, cut off contact in January, (remember she's many states away, so at this point it was not physical) and despite some repeated attempts of OW to contact him, H has remained steadfast in not responding or contacting her. Oh but I did - after her last attempt on my 10th wedding anniversary. Did she know if was our anniversary? No, but satan did, sister, you can believe that. But I'll save that story for when I get there.

It's taking me forever and a long day to get thru all this stuff. I apologize for being get-to-the-point challenged, but it's somewhat therapeutic for me to go slowly and look at each piece in perspective as I write the narrative. So I thank you all for your patience in waiting out the 'where the heck are they NOW?' answers.

Well, now I've started a habit, and I just cannot post without leaving you with some lyrics. Here's some Nichole Nordeman (haven't made it thru this without her music):

Started rubbing sticks together
I thought a spark would take forever
I never dreamt this fire would appear

When Moses saw the Bush in flames
And heard the branches speak his name
I wonder if he felt this kind of fear

'Cause I'm burnin' Yeah, I'm burnin'
And I know I'm gonna blister in these flames
So I'll stay here, 'Till this smoke clears
And I'll find you in the ashes that remain

[always_14]

Icky, parallel they are.

Sounds like you're doing well, overall. It certainly is the toughest thing I've ever been through.

So, GOOD NEWS, H is totally out of contact with OW. Aside from your 10th Anniv story (which you simply MUST tell soon, inquiring minds want to know), how are things between the 2 of you? Do tell.

In my case, H is still in contact with OW, away for the last 2 weeks, but 2 weeks before he left, he had a 'turning point' of sorts. It's all in my sitch in Piecing...if you can weigh in, I would appreciate. Feeling a little lost in the analysis dept, and would appreciate the wise advice.

Are ya having a good mother's day?

Post in your wonderful stories...we love them. Don't get to the point, we'll figure the point out ourselves. Tell your whole story....do what you need.

[grasshopper]

Ok, more already, lol. And I though I could post the long ones!

GH

[PArob]

I got chills reading the first couple of posts because this eerily sounds like the sitch that I went through two years ago.....I had to do a double take on the name.....

I really can't wait to find out where this goes....

[believing_isaiah43]

Working 12hr night shifts is exhausting! (I'm a nurse, by the way, not a writer! But thanks to whoever suggested that to me, I wish.  Actually my H is the great writer.  He just started a blog and it's really good,  I'll send you guys a link later in our story maybe!)

SO, let's jump back into the fray.  OMGosh, as I'm writing this I'm soooooooo glad it's not Dec/Jan/Feb anymore.  What a nightmare.

As I mentioned in someone else's thread, my H was convicted to break it off with OW b/c he didn't want to ruin a 2nd family/marriage, NOT b/c he was dedicated to ours.  He in fact told her he expected to be divorced and a single dad.  She was married with a child the same age as my D, and 2 stepkids.  In the end, it doesn't matter what he told her, but what he DID.  I write that sentence more for myself, as I have to remind myself a lot of these type of things.

SO, he comes upstairs one wee-hour morning to announce that it's over.  They had an email 'argument' and the servers go down, so he calls her and it ends on the phone.  She is furious that he's been trying to end it and 'leave her when she needs him the most'. Excuse me while I go vomit.  Anyway, I said "if she loves you so much because you're a good man, she should appreciate that you're trying to do the right thing." and he said "that's exactly what I told her", which I thought was kind of funny: here we are agreeing about the breakup points.   Life is surreal.

He leaves early the next a.m. to take our D to get her tonsils out (I have to stay home with our sick S), so he is gone all day long from email access.  He has no cell phone of his own (since his job took theirs back upon his termination) and he takes mine, so I know she's not calling him on that one.  No email access all day for him.  Here is the one day I only "semi-snooped".  I opened his email account, and saw an email sent from her at 4am.  The screen only shows you about the first sentence of the body of the email, so I read that part only ("well that seemed too easy for you") and closed the program.  

H comes home, we deal with D, etc. and late in the evening he says "I've been dreading this all day" and LOGS ON TO HIS EMAIL IN FRONT OF ME (previously unheard of) while I'm across the room, and pulls up that email.  It was so hard, but I stayed across the room and resisted the strong urge to read it over his shoulder, but I looked over and saw that it was the longest email in the History of Mankind, the words took up the whole screen.  H commented 'wow, it's a long one', and read it once, deleted it, and blocked her emails from his account.  All in front of me.  AGAIN, quite a change from any earlier behavior.  He just said it was a blaming, accusing email about him breaking it off, etc.  gave me no detail really.  

In the back of my head while he's doing this, I am thinking I'll read it later b/c my spyware would be sending me a screenshot of his desktop (one taken every 3 minutes) while he had it pulled up.  ALAS, he read it so fast that my program has a before & after screenshot - but no email.  So it's lost forever.  I still think about that email occasionally and wish I had seen it.  Of all the emails I read from her, I'd sure like to see that last one. I know it's just as well, but there's my 'bad dog' wanting to be fed. I fight that so much.

Back in early January, we started MC (yes, the affair was still ongoing at this point) under the guise of 'me' getting help for my issues and I asked if he wanted to come that first time and he agreed.  So we had been going to a counselor who was highly recommended, but was highly ineffective.  We went for 2 months and got nowhere with his help (he couldn't even remember our names for the first 15 minutes of each session, had to use a cheat sheet!), and did all the stuff Michele says you DON'T need in a counselor (feelings, past childhood stuff, no goals set).  I said in March to H, "I don't think we're getting anywhere".


AAHH!  Time to go get my kid from school, will go ahead and post this and do more tonight. Lyrics later as well!

[believing_isaiah43]

Oh my, ya'll. Going back over all this stuff I think is affecting my subconcious along with PMS. I have really backslid on my attitude toward H in the last few days. Even threw some nasty verbal daggers at him that were hurtful. We had an argument about all that today. This whole process is painful, and reliving the A here is not going well for me in real life, I guess.

But on the upside, you guys know most everything about the A and OW now, so there won't be much info left to tell you and we'll be on to my R issues now (of which there are many. groan)

Almost finishing in a nutshell re: OW, so I can stop being a Horror Show here at home~

The breakup is late January. About mid-February, there is a phone message from a recruiter in OW's far-off city that is a mutual friend of H and OW. OW has forwarded H's resume to him, and so he called. H was home, saw the city on caller ID, didn't answer and listened to message. I get home, and he tells me about it. Later that evening, he checks email and has one from OW (he blocked her emails previously from his 'secret' email account, this is another email acct), that is very professional/cold about having drinks with mutual friends the previous night, they asked about H, and blah blah, didn't know your situation but forwarded your resume. H didn't respond, told me about it, and forwarded me the email to see with "I do not want to be where I don't need to be. I am where I need to be" written to me. No massive declarations of love, okay yeah, but he's doing the right thing....and does not respond to phone message or OW's email.

So now we limp into March, still going to crappy MC, me working, him still looking for a job (amazing, b/c his resume is so fantastic. I never would have believed in December that he would still be out of work. Convinced it was the Lord keeping him here to work stuff out). So now I guess I get to tell you all about our sex life. Sigh. Or lack thereof.

When we met, and early in our marriage: bunnies. BUNNIES, I tell you! I'm sure many of you can say the same. Can't keep hands off each other, ML all the time. Life is a cabaret. Ah, memories.

So, several years in, it gets pretty sporadic, but still around. Then we have our 2nd child, and don't ML until he is ONE YEAR OLD, and we go away on a grown-up only weekend (jan 2002). Think that's bad? After that weekend, TWO AND A HALF YEARS pass before we ML during another grown-up weekend away (aug 2004) and hey, I'm thankful to be thrown a bone (twice! in 2 days!) but it just wasn't great sex between us. I of course was so grateful for some, that I chose to ignore that fact, and the fact that although we were together and it was pleasant, the entire trip was strained/distant in the big picture of our R. Looking back, it's so obvious, but not then. I figured that things were not the joy of yesteryear, I just attributed that to how little time we'd been able to spend together in general with his work travel. Still no A going on, just crap in the M.

So, after the great Mediocre Sex of 2004, we have none (none!) . Again, large stalemate in the marriage as I've mentioned previously. We 'argue' about it some, but really. How far are you going to get in having sex when you're b*tching about it? I felt completely undesired/unattractive, no matter how much he told me otherwise, there were no ACTIONS to back it up. Ugh. Makes me mad to think about it (not like I'm not always thinking about it).

So then, my not-digging-me-physically H goes and has a fcuking A. WHAT?!?! My H is having a PA? Emailing ILY, I want to marry you, I want to ML to you non-stop, we'd wear out mattresses on a regular basis?! WTF? Kill me now. Again ya'll, this is made harder by me snooping and reading all these words from the pit of hell. This is an extra-special-added-bonus pain, like a cherry on top of the sundae of the already fun betrayal/pain of an A, b/c he was not ML to me for years, multiple. YEARS, people. Dammit.

So in the middle of the discovered affair/email affair in my home, lots of hostility between us, and "I don't love you and I will never love you again" from H. ouch. thanks.

Then it ends, the A. And we are tiptoeing around whether or not we're going to make it, want to make it. No physical contact. Some nice gestures and attempts at friendship stuff by H (cards, etc. but zero romance attached). And then, oh yeah, into March. I'm DYING emotionally, but also physically with all this crap in my head about the A and their ML vs. our ML and WTF, etc etc.

So, one night I initiate it (after DAYS of working up courage and having about 3 talking points ready if I have to convince/argue to get him to comply), and he completely goes there with no convincing. wow. and hey, it's pretty darn good (wall, bathroom sink, floor! bring it on!). Afterwards, he says "I didn't think you were ever going to let me do that again" and I say " I didn't think you were ever going to WANT to do that again". He kisses me and says ILY. I think I've died and gone to heaven. He leaves me a post-it to find in the kitchen the next a.m. that reads "I think we're going to be OK" and draws a heart. This is the 12 hour period of time I cling to in my head as I have lived these next months after that. I could be posting in SSM too. sigh. GH, I feel your pain honey. Oh, and something funny? This was the first time we'd ever ML in OUR OWN HOME we'd bought 3 years ago. Ever.

Okay, will pause, must sleep. There's one more contact from OW I'll post about, and then hopefully we'll be done with her. Was planning to post some really hopeful lyrics, but not today. Resurfaced emotions + Fight w/ H + PMS + No sex in the foreseeable future = Lyrics of angst & adultery (more Imogen Heap. Love her):

Doing everything by halves,
You got a real flare with excuses
Meeting someone at the bar,
Where loose ends still have uses

It's complicated,
(This time I think it could be)
Triangulated,
(It could be just what we need)
So what d'you say, we give it up and walk away?
We're overrated, anyway

We're kissing without kissing,
And got it down to a fine art
Love's supposed to keep you young and frisky,
But we grew up and wide apart
Not now, not ever, no… it's never a good time
How will the good times ever roll on?
Comparing photos then and now, now and then,
Just wondering…(wondering) where it all went wrong

It's complicated,
(This time I think it could be)
Triangulated,
(It could be just what we need)
So what d’you say, we give it up and walk away?
Nothing to salvage anyway

[dmw]

what is your spyware? i know i shouldnt, but need protection

[believing_isaiah43]

How many people on this board must I beat with a noodle?
Snooping is a nightmare in the end.

You can Google keylogger software, but I'm not helping anyone with specifics. It will KILL YOUR SOUL to have TMI. Hello? McFly? Does anyone not GET that but me (and maybe GH)?

Thus ends the morning rant. Carry on.

[RBinBR]

Isaiah,

Just so you know, dmw is the one in his/her M that has had the A. He/she isn't interested in snooping on an A, but (I presume) making sure that his/her spouse isn't squirreling money aside and taking it to the Caribbean or something.

[lonelyinbed]

Isaiah,

Our stories are very similar. I thought if you looked up integrity in Webster's my H Picture was in there. Maybe their side by side.LOL I know you story far to well. Have felt all the same feeling emotions, the snooping, the lies only to find out I was right all along. H denying it the whole time. Only I find out one year after H ended the A. I was one of the one's that contacted the OW. She tryed to make herself seem like a caring person. I wasn't going to have her control the situation and make me seem like the bad girl. My marriage survied, her's crumbled. H and I made it through, but it was not easy. years of counsling.
The funning thing is that after 8 years of not seeing or hearing from her, I run into her at the skating rink. (My son plays hockey) New job for her there. But you know what she couldn't handle seeing me all the time and quit. HAHAHA.

My H and I are survivor's of EA. Every day is a complete stuggle but we will move on and survive.

Lonelyinbed

[believing_isaiah43]

Thanks to all for chiming in; don't mean to bash at all if I'm in the wrong about the snoopage. Still don't wish to post specifics re: spyware in case it "falls into the wrong hands, and used for evil instead of for good" if you know what I mean. And I think that you do.

Will be back later tonight to try to move closer to present-day in my sitch.

[believing_isaiah43]

Ack; more fighting at Chez Marital Hardship tonight. Can't wrap my head around posting more of the story right now. Will soon.

[always_14]

What? Thought you had the nice email?

Well, it's natural for you to be angry right now.

To be fair, how about be honest, and when you're feeling calm, explain (or email) H that right now, this past week or so, you've been rehashing hard feelings about the A, and it's why you're crabby. Tell him it's something you have to work through and might need to talk to him about it as well? Sounds like you're at that stage, or maybe already have been.

Just be open with what you're going through, like you are here...and he can be prepared to be more patient.

[believing_isaiah43]

Oh, we're cross posting on each other's threads! Wheeee!
Yes, I did get the nice email, God bless him, but need to breathe away from rehashing the saga, or I may come apart tonight! Yeah, I should probably tell him something about why I've backslid so noticeably (sp?) lately in my emotions, by going over the A in my head. Again, good idea.

[believing_isaiah43]

Okay, I'm now about to be hopelessly out of order in my saga, but here are tonight's emails between me & H on my own thread instead of Always14's thread - although I used many of her words verbatim in my first email, b/c they were SO GOOD (and b/c we were apparently separated at birth or something)...

After arguing most of day/evening, I sent him this (credit to Always):
What do I fear? Of course, the pain and anxiety. A role reversal that I don't intend, with me the only one 'plugged in' emotionally. I fear not being wholly loved ever again. I fear I won't be able to be who I need to be, the wife I want to be.  I fear that I cannot trust again, always suspecting and worrying as a part-time job. 

What do I hope? I hope for peace in each of our hearts and the outcome that God created for us, I hope we follow that path with happiness in our souls. I hope that each of us ends up doing what makes us happy--sometimes, that is what takes most courage of all.  I hope to be the best person I can be, the person I want to be, at all times.  I hope, in what time we have left together that I give the very best of myself to a person I love and cherish, no matter the outcome. 

His reply:
And I hope for exactly the same things.  We aren't far apart on that.  I understand your fear, which is why I have been so focused on not giving you anything to worry you or to make you feel like I am keeping something from you.  That's why it is kind of difficult when you start treating me like I am holding out on you.  It makes anything I do seem like nothing.
 
This is fixable.  The whole thing.

Gosh, but I love this man. Dammit.

Anyway, I also (at A14's suggestion, b/c by now she's brilliant and I'll follow her off a cliff) emailed him that I've been rehashing the A this week and it's causing me some mental anguish that I'm not containing well. Here's that email:

This past week or so, I've been writing about the affair (I loathe that word) and along with Hormonal Fun for the month, I'm now sure it's why I'm being more difficult than normal about things. It's something I have to work through, and I apologize that I've not separated 'then' and 'now' well when rehashing the chronology.  A little PTSD rearing its head, I'm guessing.  Would've mentioned it before now had it occurred to me sooner. On the upside, I'm almost finished.

His reply:
Understandable.  Where might this chronology be published? 

haha. The wit. He's got a blog, and I'm guessing he thinks I'm writing non-anonymously about it online or otherwise. I replied not to worry.

OMGosh, For the Love of a Princess from the Braveheart soundtrack is playing on my iTunes shuffle. (sniff, sniff)

Anyway, at the risk of confusing all of you, that's a fast forward to this evening. And no, we're not separated, just in different parts of the house b/c we live separately after the kids go to sleep, mostly. We email at night, talk during day.

Although we are going to have a DVD-night tomorrow, and I dare to hope that he'll come to bed at the same time, but probably not. sigh. baby steps.

[believing_isaiah43]

sigh. Warning: rant ahead

Tough weekend. Much backsliding. Gosh, I suck at this. I am so easily flooded with A thoughts, and feeding the bad dog, thinking he wants to be with her, if she weren't married he'd have chosen OW, if he hadn't been fired he would've left me as he was planning, etc. and then I go and freaking SAY it to him b/c I have NO SENSE, ya'll. None. ugh. And his (sensible) argument back to me is that I am keeping him chained to his A, when he's trying to distance himself from it and I keep locking him back up to it. That I think about her so much more than he does now. But that wan't the case before, I retort. Because I'm a retorter. Because I suck. GOD, I HATE HOW HARD THIS IS. I just cannot move past it like I want, with any CONSISTENCY. Dangit.

So Saturday night is eleventeen-million steps backwards, b/c I'm so frustrated with the grass-growing-slowness of our R that I want to either slam full-throttle into a better R with H RIGHT-FREAKING-NOW thankyouverymuch, or RUN from it in frustration, and separate from him to just get my thoughts together away from seeing him so much. I keep thinking I could just GAL w/o him so much easier if he weren't in my face. And instead of just chewing on that when it comes into my head, I keep BRINGING IT UP. Because I suck at this, and am showing my a$$ every time my emotions flare up. I cannot contain myself for any decent length of time. So, of course, he sees no real changes in me b/c I keep reverting to freak-chick. ARGH! I am so mad at me. And he (correctly) says to me, "You are not a safe place for me when you act like this" and it's true. I'm like some nitro that you can't shake or knock, or I'll explode with emotional goo all over the ceiling.

We're okay again, but it was a long nasty Saturday night, and H coming back upstairs and grabbing me in a hug and saying "We can do this" - despite the affair, my gosh, he's a better man than I.

I am so burned by the lack of sex in the M; my gosh, could the man please just throw me against the wall? I'm about to die over here. This whole Sat argument started when he came up to kiss me goodnight, and I grabbed his shirt to hold him nearer for a while, and he pulled away. And so it began. B/C I'm insulted by that - hello, not an issue with OW (jealousy, jealousy) - and he feels like I'm trying to 'eat him alive' (reference back to his mother who STILL tries to do this), so he keeps saying 'it's not YOU, I would have this issue with anyone I was married to, any woman who was close to me, b/c of my mother" - we are seeing a new MC that we both like, and I encouraged him to bring this up in MC so we could figure out what to do about it. and he agreed to, but i'm not sure if he'll do it. I'm about to LOSE MY MIND from desire for H and wishing he could overcome his crap. B/C this didn't happen until after we were M, I was like "hell, I'll D you just so you'll dig me again" which of course is wrong and all my volatile emotions rising up. I cannot beat those things down, and verbal daggers are NOT effective but I cannot seem to SHUT THE F UP when I'm upset. I am so frustrated with me. and he keeps saying he's the one who's expected to do all the changing and i'm not doing any changes. or very little. (insert primal scream here)

So we start another week, and he's preoccupied and distant and I'm all freaked out inside for no reason, and can't seem to figure out how to interact with him to get back to where we were before I became psycho-of-the-weekend.

Thus ends the evening rant.

[Walking]

Have you done much reading on this issue? May I suggest


After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful by Janis A. Spring
and

NOT "Just Friends" : Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity by Shirley Glass and Jean Coppock Staeheli

They are both v. good books for understanding what you are going through at the moment.

Good luck

[believing_isaiah43]

Thanks Walkingback! I have read "NOT Just Friends" and there are a trillion little post-it flags sticking out from the pages!

I've read SO many books, but have not read After the Affair, so off to find it! Many thanks for wading thru my ranting and your calm reply in the face of my present insanity.

I calmed myself down a bit by taking my sketchpad & pencils into my D6's room tonight. By the nightlight glow, I sketched her hugging her bear while sleeping. So sweet, and made me feel nice to get back into that after many years away. (My mother's day present I asked for) I'm rusty, but pleased with the results. H came home from the gym and found me in there and seemed impressed, too. I think he may have even called me "baby" but I could have been audio-hallucinating in the quiet of D's room...

Tomorrow is another day and as I remind myself all the time: God is in charge & His mercies are new every morning.

Thank God that He doesn't get crazy like I do, or we'd all be Toast.

[grasshopper]

believing,

This may be a bit off, and if it is, I am sorry, but you seem to be VERY caught up in the drama of all this. I am NOT saying you like it but you do seem to be passionate about every aspect of your ordeal and I don't think that serves you well. I think one thing you could do to maybe curb your need to be DOING something all the time is to just slow down. Take a breath. Sketch (nice BTW). Anything to put the brakes on. That's why GAL is so important, in addition to the message it sends WAS, because without occupying our minds with something else, we would burn out VERY quickly thinking about this as I think you are.

You seem a lot like me in the sense that you can communicate pretty well with us AND with yourself and that is a double edged sword. Your self dialog is going a million miles a second and I think you just need to understand that this WILL NOT be a fast paced process and the more you interject your "passion" into it, the more likely your H may feel stifled, pressured and otherwise less motivated to "work" on things.

He DOES seem to be the more calm one but I suspect that your "manic" approach, or at least what we see here as such, may put him off a bit, and to read into it even more, it could be that it always has.

So much of this is about understanding ourselves AND the perception others have of us. Not that perception should be the thing we worry about the most but we still need to be aware of how WE think of ourselves and then how that translates into what we project into the world. I think you are starting to understand that you are your own worst enemy so start working on being your best friend. Help yourself by NOT reveling in the drama. When you get worked up over something, recognize that and the just go for a jog or meditate, anything other than going to H and "expressing yourself" in a time of heightened emotion or energy. There will be time and places for that kind of expression later. For now, maybe a more gentle approach, one you FORCE yourself to adopt, may work better.

As for the lack of sex, I get that, I really do but your H seems to be a man of the sort that actually DOES attach something to sex other than just the physical act and as such, may need a lot more time to get to that point. I know my W is taking a LONG time to get there but I am still plugging away, trying to subtly increase our intimacy level so she feels more and more comfortable. I would LOVE to throw her against a wall, as OT has suggested, but I am 100% positive that she is not ready for that. Maybe your H is 100% positive YOU aren't either, lol. I hope there is a wall throwing in BOTH of our futures.

All in all, I think you are doing better than you think and yes, you need to back off a bit from H but you also need to cut yourself some slack.

I also think you stand to get some good feedback here because you ARE so good at telling your story. Not only that but you will help people too because your communication of not only what you and H DO but how you FEEL is really good for us to understand. Please, keep posting and we'll keep reading.

Oh, and are you seeing a C?

GH

[believing_isaiah43]

GH, thank you for taking the time to post to my situation.

but you seem to be VERY caught up in the drama of all this.

Absolutely. A lifelong issue. I have been so caught up in 'being pursued' that I would get in my car after fighting with boyfriends in college and 'make' them chase me down. What a nightmare I was. I think my passion is initially great in a R, and then backfires completely long-term. I'm not sure what the attraction to drama is (as if the absence of it would be a bad or something), but it's been around me forever. Obviously of my own design.

Your self dialog is going a million miles a second

your "manic" approach, or at least what we see here as such, may put him off a bit, and to read into it even more, it could be that it always has.

Hard to read, but accurate. Difficult to see & accept how I come across to people. A throwback to my childhood crap: If I dance fast enough, you won't see how screwed up I am. Not how I wish to be perceived, but completely understandable. It's funny how the things people like about me in public (enthusiasm/passion/fun, etc) doesn't translate well into my M b/c some of it is a masquerading dance that doesn't work well in deeper-than-surface M (if that makes sense).

We are in MC together (a bad C from Jan-March, and currently one C we like for about 3 sessions now), and I've been in IC on and off for oh, forever, it seems. Just joint MC going on now.

[always_14]

Hey BI! Sorry about the bad weekend. Your thought processes sound a lot like mine did before, and sometimes still do. I agree about GH's comments and drama, and wanted to add a few more observations.

1) This is a dramatic situation in your life. I find myself getting busy with life and suddenly stopping and actually thinking of the situation for what it is and it's like a smack "I cannot believe this Jerry Springer drama is my life." Yes, it is. Also, the very nature of lying, trust, deceipt, having to go through great lengths to find details of the reality of your life drives you crazy. I got to a point where I felt genuinly crazy. I had no idea of reality. When I was at work, with friends, etc, it was a respite to reality, a time when I could cling to a real world. Believe what people said and did, and it felt weird to think that people were genuine, when I lived with someone who lied to my face 24/7, and I "acted as if" and wondered, snooped, analyzed, essentially played the detective. I know snooping and prying is bad, but, frankly, I didn't do it to throw it in H's face, get back at him or torture myself--mostly, when I found things out, I had peace...however bad the details, I had a grasp on a sliver of reality in my life. It's hard to lie next to someone each night and wonder what the real life is, their other world...essentially, it's kinda "crazy" to have to combine the concept of being close to a person (your spouse) to the fact that they lead a double life you have no idea about and is nothing like them. So, enough explaining that, but in the end, it made me react in crazy ways too, ways I didn't normally react in--no control of my own world. No matter what tactics you use, it's just plain hard.

2) H doesn't want to be tied to the A, but you both need to compromise, and here's where communication is important. Seems that you're at a stage ahead of many here, where the A is over, out, talked about, and M is building again. All this time, I keep putting my feelings of A "in my pocket" as do many of us here, b/c we're not at that healing stage you're at. Sooner or later, we will be and will be torn like you are. I understand. That being said, you DO need to keep the reactions in check....while it's understandable to feel the way you do, expressing them in a DIFFERENT WAY than you did in M is the best. Explain this to H....while he's ready to move on, he has to work with you in the healing. Explain that it won't go on forever, but ask him to remember how much pain you caused him and how it took a while to come out of that. EMPATHY and COMMUNICATION. You're really lucky to have an H that WANTS to work it out, is strong for you. Lean on him, but in a healthy way. Speak about what's on your mind, tell him what you're feeling (not what he did), without the extreme emotions. Work through it. You brought up a good point that my H feels too: safety in my company. Well....safety does NOT mean never bringing up my pain or his mistakes to work through them....it DOES mean working through it in a mutually respectful, empathetic way. Simply put: express yourself, just don't rage forever and do passive-aggressive, extreme things. Tone it down a few notches. That way, H still feels safe, and you still work through a very real situation. Explain to him this as well...you will do everything to make him feel safe, and he needs to do the same by facing what he did by facing your feelings, THAT is what it will take to make YOU feel safe, b/c he made you feel UNsafe with the A.

3) It seems that you might have skipped a portion of your story from the ending of the A to this weekend. How did H come around? Describe your days now....

4) THE BIGGEST PART. It comes down to you. This is 2 parts. First, I think this comes down, largely, to you feeling like you don't have control (read #1). I feel the same. You react in an extreme manner (rage or run away) to control or simply to DO something and not just stand there. Second, this is all about YOUR actions in the first place. Sometimes, in our threads, mine included, we focus too much on the A, fixing and analyzing the CURRENT situation, how can you help it? We lose track of what happened in the M BEFORE the A. It's not just about the dynamics of NOW, but the dynamics of BEFORE. That's what you're battling. You can't help H's reactions, now, his aloofness, etc. Just remember that how he sees you is built on how you were in the M. Go back to that. What were the issues, what did you do? What were the behaviors? Why? What are you doing now to change? You glossed over this in one of the first posts, very quickly referring to childhood, etc....but THIS IS THE KEY--you're doing a great disservice to yourself by NOT making this a priority now. Let your healing take the stage too, but always temper it with your changes and your part in the M. So, you see, the only way to really gain control of the situation is to go to the root, not what the situation in your house is now--and make those changes in you.We can't work on how to move from here, unless we know how it all started. In your next post, go back to this. What were the issues. Really dig deep, look at your assumptions when you reacted to things, things you see were issues and you wish were better. Think of your ideal M and think of how YOU would be different. What are things day-to-day, that you do differently, react differently, things you do to change your former dynamics. This is the only thing you can control, so throw yourself into it...get the control back. Get to a point where regardless of what happens in your M, the OW (who is out, but whatever), etc: you are still you, the best that you can be!!!! Let's focus on this in your next threads, in addition to venting and moving through the pain. What's helped me look away from the pain is to focus on my changes, which leads me to remember all the crappy things I did. Not that you are taking all the blame or beating yourself up, but simply shifting focus back to what you can control, and in the end what matters most, a better YOU. A better M will only follow. I remember something my H said when we got back together years ago to marry: I didn't want to get back into a R with you until I knew I could be the best person I could be adn offer the best of myself. Good philosophy. So, while we all want better M's, are we prepared to know what we want and what we can give?

5) Get centered. This is a horrible stage where you're being pulled at every emotion at every whim. Find a ritual, prayer, poem, something to remind you to center your emotions and get back to a strong you.

So, next post, tell us more about the changes you're working on in you. Things you do to GAL. Focus on the positive and controllable parts of this whole thing. It's not easy, and I myself am a basket case here and there, BUT, it helps to at least put some effort in this direction, and it REALLY pays off in the M.

Look at it this way....we're all human and make mistakes. HUGE ones at times. Our only hope is that our loved ones still love us...sure they'll be disappointed and hurt, but that they understand and still love us. It's what you hope for from H....it's what he hopes from you. It takes time, it's the toughest thing to give, but you'll get there.

[Walking]

Hi Believing

Some good insights there from Grasshopper. I’ve noticed that much of your self-talk is negative, you beat yourself up constantly, and often those of us who are so hard on ourselves are also unwittingly hard and have unreasonably high expectations of those around us. In the past few days you’ve said several times that ‘I suck’, ‘I cannot move past this’ etc – and saying those things to yourself makes them so.

You can change the way you talk to yourself by making a decision to. Rather than saying to yourself “I suck” say something like “this is a challenge for me and I’m learning how to deal with it better” – rather than saying “I cannot move past this” say “this is an experience I am learning from and it’s taking me longer than I expected, but God has a plan and I trust that I am in the place he wants me to be”. Rather than giving yourself evidence that you don’t have the skills to be in a loving committed relationship …

It's funny how the things people like about me in public (enthusiasm/passion/fun, etc) doesn't translate well into my M b/c some of it is a masquerading dance that doesn't work well in deeper-than-surface M

… tell yourself “I am passionate and enthusiastic about becoming the wife I want to be and my husband deserves, I’m excited about the next part of my journey where I will learn to experience a deeper level of commitment than I have so far known.”

It’s easy and it’s so powerful. I’ve gained significant insights into how I contribute to the things that go right and wrong in my life throughout my separation and divorce drama. One of the good authors on how to change the way you think is Louise Hay. Her book ‘You can Heal your life” is compelling reading. She has a simple philosophy that what we give out, we get back. She thinks that everyone is responsible for every experience in their lives and every thought we think is creating our future.

One of the things that I think you really need to do is to forgive yourself for what you perceived you did to contribute to this. Forgiving yourself is as important as forgiving your H and it’s easy to do. There’s lots of stuff on forgiveness in your marriage saving books.

I like your friends analogy about feeding the black dog. There is an American Indian saying that “where attention goes, energy flows” – take your attention away from what is wrong, and assert it on something that is right – your energy will flow there.

Take care

[believing_isaiah43]

Wow, guys, thank you so much for taking the time to post thoughtful and thorough replies to my posts. What great points, and I want to chew on them several times before I address them; especially your request for more stuff about my issues Always. Right now I'm going to cruise through the rest of the forum and then come back and read your insights another 4.859 times and try to swallow them and make them a part of my mindset.

Thank you guys SO much; I'll be posting again soon! News at eleven.

[leslie]

and someone actually reads them and perhaps gets something from them

Now that you've cleaned up your lives by following the truth, love one another as if your lives depended on it. Your new life is not like your old life. 1Peter1:22

Ok, that got to me...thanks for it!

[Mamabear]

If there is one thing I got from your long posts it is that you should be a writer. You words capture me and I finish wanting more.

[Walking]

Believing your posts are beautifully written and convey the anguish we feel as we travel this surprising journey - but it's done.

It's happened, there is nothing you can do about it now. It is over. Your husband is home. You are in a position that many on this board would envy and yet you seem to let the negatives outweigh the positives of your sitch.

The questions I think you should ask yourself and seek answers to here on this board are

1. What did I contribute to this crisis (you can only ask and answer that about yourself because you don't have any control over anyone else - even your H)
2. What can I do rebuild my life and/or marriage
3. What are the deal breakers for me.

You have mentioned several times that there was limited passion in your marriage. Is that going to be a big enough issue in the future for you to become so dissatisfied with your marriage that you become a WAW? Or is there something you can do to address that now.

You've mentioned that you have problems with letting people get too close to you - including your husband - what can you do to change or remedy that?

My prayer is to LIVE now, from now on, CORRECTLY and REAL. To work it out - to have GOD WORK THROUGH ME. Finally, to live OPEN and unzipped. Yes, that scares me. But never changing is scary too. To live more of THIS, reaping more of the same? NOT. NOT. NOT. CAN'T. WON'T. PLEASE GOD NOT MORE OF THIS INTERNAL LIFE. Open the inner & clean it out for You. for my family.

How are you addressing this important observation you made about yourself?

So how do you finally change from what you are when you are ready to do it? When you don't know how to, how do you do it? I know I want to change, I am ready to walk out of this fog and struggle with being who God intended me to be. What I do NOT know is HOW. STEPS. The DAILY. HOURLY. WHAT TO DO. What NOT to do. I am LOST and lonely. I need His grace to be sufficient.

That is so powerful - "I know I want to change" that my friend is your first step.

The steps - are first and foremost KNOW that you can change. Stop sabotaging yourself by ending sentences "What NOT to do. I am LOST and lonely. " Turn it around and say to yourself "I have all the answers within me, God has given me all the answers I need to be the woman I want to be".

Have you had any individual counselling? Read any books? I think I recommended "You can Heal Your Life" by Louise Hay - I can't recommend it highly enough.

There are lots and lots of resources out there to help you change/heal when you want to. It's not hard work Believing - it's an exciting journey, it doesn't have to take a long time - it's simply a decision.

Believe that and you can do it.

[believing_isaiah43]

Hi guys, thanks so much for your insight/encouragement. I was trying to back up and get you all to where we are, hence the journal entries b/c I didn't have time to recreate the wheel post-wise (For posting purposes, I wish I had a desk job with internet access, but instead I'm running like a refugee for 12 hours at a time thru the hospital!)

H & I are in MC, and still butting heads in our R - this is mostly my fault; my fear-filled, self-protective fault that throws up my defenses. As I told our C yesterday, I read every book I can get my hands on and grasp the theories, but find I can't put feet to my thoughts. I can't/don't/won't walk the walk, you know?

Anyway, I really want to post more (and have time to REFLECT and really THINK hard thoughts more) but I'm working like a hostage for the next week, so I'm hoping for a slow weekend at work where I can think and form ideas that I want to post here. I hope you know I'm not trying to deflect, I was posting my journal entries from when I time to THINK about stuff more. Right now I'm reacting more than I'd like b/c I haven't been able to get my $hit in a pile and form/re-commit to a game plan in my heart, if that makes sense. That's made for some crappy discussions, and major frustration on H's part, and I have to keep running to work which is exhausting.

Yes, I am amazed some days about where we were in Dec/Jan and where we are today. When I reflect on that, it's not too short of astounding. And I find myself not trusting it; some other poster (can't remember who) posted something that hit me:

I also have this hidden fear that one day he'll just say "you know, this isn't just working, I tried but I don't feel anything"

And that keeps me in don't-be-vunerable mode (not like i need a lot of help to stay there, no arm twisting needed here). And I keep thinking, 'if I could just jump in feet first and quit just putting a toe in the water, and not worry about if he leaves or not...no matter what, an effort like that would NOT be time wasted' ...but again, I can't seem to find a way to put feet to my thoughts.

So that's a quick recap of where we are, without enough introspection I realize. Just again want to thank all who keep following, and I hope to give you more to chew on as I am able. I seem to need big chunks of time to be introspective and form the words around what I discover, and those chunks of time are not happening enough yet. groan.

[believing_isaiah43]

Once again, c'est moi, but I can only pop in again for a few minutes as I have to be up at 5am to work the rest of the week.

Had a particularly difficult weekend, I actually packed a bag and left the house intending to stay away a few days to clear my head. Went to a friend's house (her H had an A and they reconciled, so she's familiar with the torture of the process), and sat up talking til about 1am and then I said, "I have to go, I can't have my kids waking up w/out me there and wondering where mommy is" and went home and sat up talking with H until about 3am. We have an MC appt on Thurs, and may discuss with her turning it into IC appts. for each of us for a while and then back to MC later. We'll get her input on the weekend's events, discussions since, and her perspective about it. My.

Such a difficult freakin' process, ya'll. Made no less difficult by my swinging emotions. I was thinking about it, I grew up in a house where if you were mad or upset, you DID something about it: yelled, hit something (or someone), etc. So, I have apparently taken this with me; it's hard for me to suppress my emotional reactions, to -in the moment- back up and see the big picture and act accordingly.

We had a really honest and good discussion last night about things -not the A specifically, but our interactions, and H's increasingly changing mental status - he's been diagnosed with adult ADD and on meds for years, but it's gotten worse and after some research we're wondering if it's a really high-functioning Autism (tactile, noise issues, lots of stuff I won't go into here), and of course as it's 'progressed' it's interfered with our relationship and how we interact. Our talk was good, but as H said, the next time we have an argument or conflict, this level-headed person that is me now, will leave the building and the defensive, missile-lobbing, wants-to-run-away chick will re-emerge.

SO. Fun times, eh? Things are actually decent right now, considering the recent emotional carnage, and me not being a 'safe place' for H. So I keep sabotaging the R with my frequent trips to Crazy, population: 1. Back to square one-ish, and I hope to hold on to some semblance of sanity for a bit while I figure this out, and treat H better.

And for about 5 hours on Sat. night, H thought I was gone for good and trying to figure out what he was going to do with his life. Not my intent for him to feel that floor-out-from-under-you panic, but he did at least get a small idea what it was like for me in Dec when he was deadset to leave me. I told him that, but again that it was NOT my intention and I wouldn't EVER want ANYONE feeling remotely like I did those 2 months. ugh.

Then I read threads of people like GH/PL/A14/NM/MamaB and feel like a LOSER , b/c you guys can hold it together in the face of such inner turmoil at times, and I so far have not (except in the actual crisis of the A, ironically).

There's my latest Jones for drama in a nutshell. SO going to be working on getting off the crazy-making machine. That's step ONE in my 180 plan: Stop over-reacting wherever possible, and also to stop making NEGATIVE comments in general. (i.e. talking about what GOOD happened today instead of something bad that happened right off the bat in the conversation). Simple. Two things. Starting small so I don't overwhelm myself.

[grasshopper]

Then I read threads of people like GH/PL/A14/NM/MamaB and feel like a LOSER , b/c you guys can hold it together in the face of such inner turmoil at times, and I so far have not (except in the actual crisis of the A, ironically).

To be short, that's BS. You are NOT a loser. Simply because you put so much honest effort into your self-analysis and you ARE doing SOMETHING to make progress. I think you are a lot better than you think.

GH

[believing_isaiah43]

You are a sweetpea, GH. Thanks for posting. Worked 12hrs today and go back for half day tomorrow. so. tired. Need some new feet.

Anyway, I was re-reading some of the posts from earlier in my thread and 2 things popped out that I paused to come post about. A_14 advised me to 'get centered' - which is absolutely necessary. How that happens or what it looks like is not clear yet, but I was once again reminded how important that is to sanity and a stable R.

And Walkingback addressed my negative self-talk, which our MC also has addressed in both H & I, and gave us homework to try to catch our 'tapes' of that when they play in our heads and re-word them. I honestly didn't think I would be able to 'catch' it b/c it's so ingrained in the way I think that I figured it wasn't even an audible voice anymore. But I have noticed it at times, and have been amazed at the stuff I'll say to myself w/out even thinking about it. 'I'm so retarded', 'I'm an idiot', etc. yuck. When I have caught myself (only about 0.001% of the time that I'm doing it, I'm sure) I've been able to say, 'no I am NOT an idiot, I'm just tired and distracted' or whatever. So just the fact that I've made that effort to do an excercise I've been aware of for years but never acted on has pleased me somewhat.

In other news, last week MC told H to commit to coming to bed with me just ONCE a week (he still has kept the habit of staying awake at night as his decompression time), and we go back to MC tomorrow with that UNachieved in the last 9 days. sigh.

To clarify, this is not a come-to-bed-to-ML assignment, just a come to bed before-I'm-already-asleep-so-we-can-hang-out-and-talk assignment. Granted, there was my Exit Stage Left on Saturday, but we talked about it and he made the plan to come to bed twice, and postponed twice, and hey! -would you look at that? Assignment not met. Something to discuss tomorrow, so I'm kind of glad for that part of it.

Will let you know what comes of the MC appt tomorrow. Thanks for hanging in with me, those who still read here!

[grasshopper]

In other news, last week MC told H to commit to coming to bed with me just ONCE a week (he still has kept the habit of staying awake at night as his decompression time), and we go back to MC tomorrow with that UNachieved in the last 9 days. sigh.

I think I read in "getting the love you want" that this is called an exit. That book (required reading in Imago therapy, which my C practices) suggests that couples work to close all such exits. The exit is a way one spouse builds something into the R that allows them to escape from it without seeming to do anything out of the ordinary. An affair can be an exit, but like your H, my W uses that "late night time" as her way to decompress, as she says, and have her "me" time. I suspect that it has a lot more to do with NOT having "GH" time as it does her being alone. She's alone all day long...alegegly...lol.

I think your C is on to something, but I don't know if the "so-we-can-talk-and-hand-out" part helps. To me, this is just more pressure. I have found that since I STOPPED trying to start talks in bed and really just allowed it to be "close" time between us, she is a lot more likely to come to bed with me than stay up. I used to start deep conversations ALL the time when she came to bed. It got to the point where I think unless we were to ML, she didn't come to bed with me for well over 2 years. Damn...wish I woulda seen that back then. Oh well, live and learn.

GH

[always_14]

Hi Believing....wow, what a crazy work schedule you have here.

OK....a few things....you need to push the STOP button on the crazy machine. I can be harsh here b/c I have one too, and it's NOT OK to live in that. I too learned it from home, where we were overly-"expressive" in our emotions...as Betsey once stated, almost abusive, then we all went back to normal, kissy-kissy. NOT.

Make undoing this your first priority. When I did this, it worked for me. Within months, H said that he actually felt SAFE talking to me....you know what a compliment that was? He has a really traumatic reaction to angry folks, and I didn't help at all. Of course, after finding out the A, I slid back a LOT that night and raged, but then got over it (pretty quick for a person who was just told that their H slept with someone and was still hiding things). Just remember, you can go to all the MC you want, but until you make H feel safe, you will get nowhere. You can expect no progress from him, because technically you're not trying either...to at the very least make him feel safe in his own home and M. He feels like he's walking a minefield...and to top it off he made a huge mistake....so if you flip about smaller things, how is he to expect that you aren't going to constantly lose it over his A.

At some point you really need to work on putting this behind you. The A happened....so did a LOT of things you did in the M (and we need to get BACK to this, again and again....your anger is one of these things). You both made mistakes....you have an H that wants to work it out. This will only work if you can forgive this, and try to forget it. By that I don't mean trying to induce amnesia, but rather in a way a friend told me to consider it..."make sure that you have forgiven and forgotten to a point that you KNOW that 20 years from now, when you have the WORST fight of your life, you WILL NOT bring this up." Well said, and a good goal. I suspect, like me, you have a nasty habit of throwing things in H's face. Second goal for you, stop that. He has a brain and a memory, he is guilty, he doesn't need you to remind him of his transgressions.

Another small goal....what are his LL's? If you're particularly negative, stick with your goal of saying positive things....most of all, why not also start complimenting him on small things...thanking him. This really worked for me. It meant a lot to H, who initially thought it was fake (so would I). Then it becmoes habit. You said that H lost his job over this....likely he's feeling crappy right now, so give a little boost. Why, b/c at one point he was a swell guy, and you can be that now.

I also think that your anger comes from feeling hugely betrayed...and you were. A few words about that. First, a good passage that I read in reading yesterday said that you can overcome huge pain simply by stopping feeding it. Stop focusing on it...little by little, and it will get less. The more you feed it, the more intense it gets. The bigger of an issue it is. Easier said than done. Get your anger out, process it, but you're getting stuck at anger and feeling betrayed. You now need to move to understanding it, accepting it, and letting go. Write more about your understanding of H and why he did this...what it came from, what were the issues in your M. This brings me to the second point on anger....you are feeling intense anger because you feel so uniformly wronger...just YOU in pain....when you start to fall into this spiral, start to temper it with thoughts of things YOU did in the M that hurt H. This is the only way I find any compassion through this mess. Think of times H was patient with you, waiting for a real M (you said this once). This helps you to see it took 2 to bring this down, 2 people with their share of mistakse and need for forgiveness. Has H even approached HIS anger about the M? Thats where my H is now. It's there. I'm not saying it's all your fault, but it wasn't all H's either. I know you never imagined this happening to you, but you BOTH imagined a better M that you had.

About the bed thing. Make it light....not about talking, not about expecting. The part of the day I loved most with H when we were "happily" married was going to bed. We just cuddled and laughed and laughed. Joked and laughed. Then went to bed. It was nice. Try this. H won't feel that he has to have sex, nor will be feel pressured to talk only to have you start a fight.

ABout centering yourself. First is the positive self-talk. Praise yourself for dealing with such a hard time so well. For still being married and for having self-awareness and desire to change. For going back to work and supporting your family and being a great mom AND W. You are wonderful. Believe that and act on it. Next, envision yourself as a woman with lots of grace and compassion, act it. Just think of all the things you want to be as a woman and start being those things. It's actually kinda easy. Next, the best thing I learned about centering was ENJOY THE MOMENT. Always. At work, at home, with friends, driving, doing chores, with H. Stop worrying, think less about the future uncertainty and past pain, and just enjoy the moment. Share a laugh, a touch a good talk and be thankful for that moment and live it, fully.

I know I might have sounded harsh here, and it probably is...but I care for you and want to see you move past your issues and traits to a better M and partner. I also understand, all too well, your issues, b/c I AM THE SAME. But you can do this.

Now, tell us what YOUR homework from counseling was....
What are your goals for yourself? How are you monitoring that? When you come back here, tell us of the times that you did things RIGHT. Small things you did to change...compliments, a time when you would have picked a fight but let it go...
Now, I'll ask again...dig deep and what were the issues in your M that were YOU. Really think about this, your behaviors, outlook, etc.

Less time thinking of the A, and more time about YOU. The A is over, but your M is still alive and the only way it will thrive is if you change things in YOU (and H changes things in HIM) that made the mess in the first place.

[believing_isaiah43]

always, you are so good girl!

Just remember, you can go to all the MC you want, but until you make H feel safe, you will get nowhere. You can expect no progress from him, because technically you're not trying either...to at the very least make him feel safe in his own home and M. He feels like he's walking a minefield...and to top it off he made a huge mistake....so if you flip about smaller things, how is he to expect that you aren't going to constantly lose it over his A.

Have you been in my kitchen and bathrooms, where H and I have these fights/discussions? H has stated constanly lately that I am not a safe place, that 'anything i do doesn't matter', that he starts each day back at zero having to prove himself to me, that he doesn't feel like a valid human in his own home. And I am confounded, b/c there is some validity to what he says, but I feel so ill-equipped to change how I react or act. I wish I had a personal coach in a secret earphone telling me what to say when, you know?

It's not the A specifically so much anymore, as much as what I feel I'm not 'getting' or what he's not 'giving'. But he made the -sadly accurate- point that I'm not changing/making the effort because I'm WAITING to see if it's safe for ME to go the the deep end. And until I'm reassured, I won't step in and get in the deep part. Since November, H is not exactly in the deep end, but he is definitely wading chest-high compared to where he was pre-A and during A. I again, feel emotionally retarded and unsure how to effect a change in myself.

The MC gave us an assignment to do 5 surprises for each other, and I am frankly BLANK as to what to do for H. How sad is that? I'm married to the man, should KNOW him and his needs, and cannot figure out what he would want and appeciate as a relational surprise. Not supposed to be gifts or anything that you purchase, really. Any suggestions, ideas would be SO appreciated.

We don't see her again until the 10th since she's out of town this week. So I have more time than usual to figure something out. I am usually really creative, but I'm worn down in this R and need to pep myself up to engage in it. Again, I'm so handicapped at engaging in an R, I feel so debilitated.

As an aside, I re-read what I wrote about feeling 'debilitated', 'ill-equipped' etc, and want to clarify that I'm not beating myself up with negative self-talk (or at least that is not what I see here) but that I really do not have the relational skills (never saw it modelled, etc. with crazy old Hollywood as my guide for 'normal', since my abusive home was most definitely not the norm). Just wanted to point that out in case someone was going to jump on my wording here (and you still may, that's fine).

Anyway, I (OF COURSE, what a shock!) must go back to nap as I'm scheduled to work tonight. Shifting between days and night shifts is really no good. I'm pooping out physically and mentally. H has taken the kids to the pool and I am feeling left out of the fun (b/c that's another one of my HUGE issues from childhood to this day: being/feeling left out)

Thanks again for hanging out with me, ya'll. I appreciate you.

[grasshopper]

But he made the -sadly accurate- point that I'm not changing/making the effort because I'm WAITING to see if it's safe for ME to go the the deep end. And until I'm reassured, I won't step in and get in the deep part.

I wise woman once told me that until I was ready (and I, like you obviously am not yet) to take the kind of emotional risks it would take to FULLY open myself up to this new R with my W, it would probably not happen. Until I was ready to lead by example, SHE would not be willing to take the even bigger (yes BIGGER) risk it would take to come back to the marriage 100%.

The point was that yes, we have been through hell, but the key here is that our worst hell is in the past, or for the most part anyway. THEIR hell is ongoing (relatively speaking). They went through hell to get to the "affair point" and then hell during the affair (yes, it WAS/IS hell no matter what they said) and then when they look forward to their future with us, they envision more hell ahead.

In their eyes, we are bitter, angry, hurt, untrusting, spiteful, and bent on revenge...maybe. We are just as likely to take them back and then cheat on THEM for a myriad of reasons than not. We are likely to take them back and then become a WAS ourselves in a week, month or year.
In their mind, we will NEVER truly forgive them. How could we when they can't ever forgive themselves. In their mind, we'll never really believe the affair is over...because in their mind THEY aren't sure it is either...guilt, guilt and more guilt, mixed in with a little regret and a HUGE amount of uncertainty.

BI, at some point we have to accept that we are probably going to have to jump in the deep end with all the lights off and the very real potential that we are jumping into a pit of oil filled with mutant sharks. We have to understand that for the most part, we are living on the side of the equation with all the resources for understanding what we are going through. We are in no way superior to our WAS's other than in the fact that our lack of ignorance of these issues puts a greater burden on us to act in ways they are probably not even aware of as options.

Our burden is to act out of unconditional love, knowing full well that we could be hurt again, but so too knowing that if we are, it will be OUR decision to be so again, NOT theirs. IF we choose to love, trust and live with them again, we do it knowing they are deeply flawed, as we are, and that those flaws COULD lead to more trouble down the road. We are tasked with forgiving the unforgivable so completely that they see the path to that forgiveness for themselves. To forgive them their transgression is to forgive ourselves for whatever role we played in the situation that lead to it.

We take NO responsibility for their acts beyond contributing to a mindset and we take FULL responsibility for our own life, decisions and love.

BI, it IS up to you to jump in to the deep end but realize that now, more than ever, you can swil better, kill mutant sharks with a quick flip of your wrist, and if need be, call on an army of "little ear-pieces" (us) to help you at least figure out where you may have gone wrong, if not stop you from going there in the first place.

Stay strong, learn to take risks that you KNOW you can handle, and even a few you may not, and live life the best you can.

GH

[Mamabear]

In their eyes, we are bitter, angry, hurt, untrusting, spiteful, and bent on revenge...maybe......In their mind, we will NEVER truly forgive them. How could we when they can't ever forgive themselves. In their mind, we'll never really believe the affair is over...because in their mind THEY aren't sure it is either...guilt, guilt and more guilt, mixed in with a little regret and a HUGE amount of uncertainty.

GH, thanks for that. Sometimes I think it's all about me and forget what H might be feeling. This really clarifys it. Now to jump in the deep end, off the high dive, and take emotional risks. We want our spouses to feel safe and loved by us and not regret their decision to remain in the M.

[grasshopper]

...more than ever, you can swil better, kill mutant sharks...

Um, that would be swim better, lol. Freudian slip I guess...

GH

[believing_isaiah43]

I love ya'll madly. thanks for hanging in. I wish I knew what the deep end looks like, or even how to find it. I was thinking yesterday that I have even longer to go than I initially thought. H & I were having a discussion about renovating the basement, and I got defensive about his suggestions and was trying not to be, and to put my feelings into words and it was such a struggle! I had this knot in my chest and couldn't define what the feeling was, or how to explain it. ugh. I realized that if I'm not mad as hell, hurt, or really excited about something, I have no idea what I'm feeling. Can I go back to 'Go' and collect $200, b/c I really want a Mulligan on this life. But I did struggle to half-a$$ explain myself and later emailed H to thank him "for taking the time to listen to me stumble thru my thoughts when you had a lot to get done."
And he replied "Thanks for sharing your feelings. I need that..."

So I'm trying, but oh to be back in May and not ride this ship to the bottom of the ocean like we did. Still no physical affection, doesn't even hug me when he comes to bed anymore. I think he's got to ramp himself back up to look positively upon me again. Ick. Working on the GAL thing, but it's a fine line for us b/c we lived very separate lives pre-bomb so that's not really a 180 in our M. I need to lovingly detach more than just GAL, and yet be available. It's like dancing on the head of a pin.

Anyway, been a while since you had some lyrics from me, so here's a Nickel Creek song I've discovered recently on the iPod shuffle:

I wish you out of the woods
And into the picture with me.
I wish you over the moon,
Come out of the question and be.

If this going to
Run round in my head,
I might as well be dreaming.
Run round in my head

I rollercoaster for you.
Time out of mind
Must be heavenly.
It's all enchanted and wild,
It's just like my heart said
It was going to be.

[believing_isaiah43]

Well, sure enough I got to work last night and ran like a horse all night with 2 admissions and busy patients. More fun tonight too. Ugh.

I will post something GH wrote to Emily21, that has been a struggle for me as well. Very insightful I thought:

Right now, you feel safe in being angry and sad. If you decided today to be happy, all of a sudden you're in uncharted waters and you'd have to accept the unknown. You KNOW how to be angry and upset, that is natural to you now. Learn how to accept that the unknown is NOT something to be feared or avoided.

That is SO true for my life; being hurt, defensive, and looking out for MYSELF first above others (in an UNhealthy/protective way, not a GAL way) is my Default mode. Doing anything else is UNnatural and quite unsettling.

We're moving slowly, though. Thought we were moving backwards there for quite some time, and I - in my innate, frustrating way - got (surprise!) impatient and cranky and stuffed it (I thought) until MC on Monday where I suddenly started crying uncontrollably b/c I was so lonely and scared this wasn't going to work. Not big fat squalling sobs, just that quiet desperate misery where your eyes cannot stop leaking, your voice is small and pitiful, and you feel so helpless/hopeless. MC actually said it was good that my emotions do come out, and was concerned that H doesn't let his out much.

We also discussed in MC how H doesn't feel 'safe' with me, secondary to how he was raised - crappy conditional-love parents always waiting for him to fail, they never talk about what a great kid/man is was/is, always bring up something bad about him/his actions - it's a VERY hot button for him. C asked him what it would take to make him feel safe, and he really doesn't know, which is somewhat no-win for me, obviously. He kept saying that he needs me to stop 'nagging' (UGH!) him about coming to bed at the same time, and to give him credit for what he DOES do, and stop throwing the OW/A in his face when I am upset about something unrelated (although at times, all roads lead to OW when I'm upset. Working on that).

That's about all the direction I got, so these issues are obviously important to him, but the not-coming-to-bed thing just SUCKS, and more so b/c it was ongoing PRIOR to the A.

So we have more discussion/fighting/whathaveyou later that evening after MC, maybe-you'll-be-happier-without-me-and-we-can-find-what-we-need-to-be-happy-outside-of-the-M-blah-blah, H getting frustrated with that crap, and I get in the car and go to my 'thinking place' for about 20 minutes to clear my head.

I can't even remember how we ended the evening, but it wasn't the happiest place in world. Then H comes to bed around 2am and initiates some serious, kick-a$$ - it was flatout fabulous, and I was, frankly, humbled by how he could just put whatever resentment/weirdness aside to just be with me and meet a need of mine (and hopefully his, but as you guys know I'm the one who wants it more and feels an EC with him after IC - I am a stereotypical guy here, for some reason). SO here's this amazing session in the wee hours after a really difficult day between us.

The next day we teased each other a little about it, and I honestly told him how I was humbled by his effort to make things work in spite of such yuck between us, and that I have been difficult and obtuse, and asked him to forgive me for that. I told him "I'm in" (re: working on making a M that makes us both happy) and he said "Count me in, too". I really would jump off a cliff for him, to make things work between us, when I feel "fed" physically and connected to him that way. My whole attitude/countenance is completely shifted when this happens. Odd? Am I a man trapped in a chick's body? (ha)

H has started his own business since losing his job post-A, and we've been working together on the website, and discussing the clients he has/and ones who are in the wings, etc. This is something that's been nice to discuss between us, as well as finishing the basement for his office, etc.

While I thought this was a good thing (and still do to a great degree) MC encouraged us to spend 30min together a night to discuss NON-task topics (i.e. NOT kids or work), but things where our 'hearts can connect'. She pointed out that we are wanting the same things from each other but our hearts are not finding each other in our communication, if that makes sense.

Okay, YAY! I've posted something other than 'I'll be back' FINALLY.

Oh, and GH posted some Linkin Park lyrics this week, and I listened to that group MUCH during the A so I thought I'd share the lyrics to "Easier to Run" which was both H and myself at different (thankfully) times during/after the A:

It’s easier to run
Replacing this pain with something numb;
It’s so much easier to go
Than face all this pain here all alone

Something has been taken from deep inside of me
The secret I’ve kept locked away no one can ever see;
Wounds so deep they never show, they never go away
Like moving pictures in my head for years and years they’ve played

(If I could change I would, take back the pain I would)
(Retrace every wrong move that I made I would)
(If I could stand up and take the blame I would)
(If I could take all the shame to the grave I would)

Sometimes I remember the darkness of my past
Bringing back these memories I wish I didn’t have;
Sometimes I think of letting go and never looking back
And never moving forward so there’d never be a path

Just watching in the sun
All of my helplessness inside
Pretending I don’t feel misplaced;
It’s so much simpler than change

[believing_isaiah43]

My gosh, ya'll. I came to ask for help with a situation that has made me VERY uncomfortable for the last few hours. Normally, I would get all freaked out, not process it long enough, and attack H with it in an accusatory way well before I had time to even ask for someone else's opinion. But because of the amazing people on this board, I knew almost immediately that I had to ask YOU for help first before I made any potentially stupid moves.

Now, I've just read about GH's sitch and just want to go pout and cry in a corner I am so upset for him. This compounded my bad mood - I am amazed I didn't say anything when H came to say goodnight, and bust my own sitch wide open.

Anyway, let me take a breath and calm down to tell ya'll what the heck I'm talking about. And before I even start, no, this has nothing to do with the OW. Not directly, anyway.

Since we've been working on the M, H has given me access to his email accounts. I have his passwords and his computer remains unlocked (where, during the A, he had started locking it up w/ a password so I couldn't get on) all the time. Anytime he changes passwords, he tells me. He has no idea if I'm doing anything with that knowledge or not, but wants to correct his mistakes by giving me access and no reason to worry. His words.

With ya'll knowing that, I'm not sure if it's considered snooping or not if I check is emails. And I do occasionally, but not religiously like I used to when I was hacking during the A, or right after it ended when I just couldn't stop reading his emails, even benign ones to nobody about nothing.

I consider them "random drug screens" just to see where his head is at. OW doesn't even have this new email address, so it's not like I'm looking for her there.

Usually there's nothing even remotely of interest, but sometimes there's an email to a close friend or two about our marriage and I get an idea of where his head is at and how he sees us, outside of what he says only to me. Most of it has been mildly reassuring.

A week or so ago, H sent out a link to some 1980's music videos to a group of people (myself included) and a lot of high school friends of his. Several of the friends replied to the whole list, and so I could see the debate publicly of various 1980's bands, who liked who, good-natured ribbing about it.

Stick with me, I am making a point I swear.

SO: I get on this evening after work to see what's going on briefly. And in his Trash folder there's an email from a chick that H knew in high school. I met her about 9 years ago, and have been in touch with her myself occasionally over the years, most recently having made a huge scrapbook for H's 40th birthday last month of memories from people he's known all his life, and been in touch with all of these high school people for months compiling photos and memories of them for the scrapbook. She, of course contributed.

She had been married when I first met her, and has now been divorced for several years. So what I found is an email from her that contains a long thread of emails between them. She was replying to the banter from the other HS friends, and HAD replied to the whole group previously, but this time she replied, it was to H directly instead of the whole group and they went back & forth about 5-6 emails between them. Last one from her today. Don't know what he sent back, if he did. The gist of it was reminiscing about who each of them dated in high school; why did you like him? why did you like her? where did our group go that New Years? what was that girl's name? etc. How's your XH, asks H. He's in C, she replies, and tells that he never even told the C they were divorced, blah blah. And H replies that she's better off w/o her XH (which is true, he was a nightmare).

But, STILL. Is anybody with me here on the whole discomfort thing, or is it just ME b/c my H has previously had an A and I'm extremely sensitive to one-on-one conversations he has with any female?

DBing (no R talk) is not really the issue here, b/c we're both supposedly commited to working it out, so this is fair game as a concern. Or is it?

Do I say, hey H I was reading your email the other night.... ?

Is it snooping if he gave me access?

Should I wait and bring it up in MC this week?

If I do, is that an ambush?

How would you approach this subject? I don't want to make him defensive, or convict him about it, and it would have been just fine had it been a 'public' email for the whole group to see.

I KNOW I am not keeping quiet about it b/c my inner red flags are going off like crazy, just for the whole discomfort thing. I have learned from my H's A - he doesn't see these things coming, this slippery slope with a 'friend', he's just suddenly in Inappropriateville and didn't realize he's bought a ticket. I want to avoid him getting on any train here, but don't want to be the Fidelity Nazi, you know?

Some help? I would sure appreciate some insight here, I'm a little foggy on my perspective.