Unique situation....things r changin? Part 5

GH,

Sorry your "two live humans" didn't give you the support you needed. I think so many people just don't know how to react. They think telling you your S is a jerk is helpful. Gee as if we didn't realize it ourselves. Anyway, if you need to talk to a live human, my digits are in Petite's thread.

Now that you've mentioned that V-day has a special significance outside of the national cheesiness I understand more why you've been obsessing about the day. I probably would too. I feel the same way about the 4th of July.

What makes you happy outside of your W and kids? Is there something you can do for yourself today that will put you in a good mood? Maybe a photography field trip. That way when you exchange gifts with her you can have a big smile on your face. It would be even better if you still have that same smile when she goes off to be with the OM. Let her wondering why you are so happy.

My goal for today: To eat cookies

SuperStressed

Thanks SS. Yea, it is the deeply personal significance of this day that is pulling me down. More of the usual "how could she" thinking that gets us nowhere but seems to creep in nevertheless.
I have to work right up till when we are going to exchange, then take my S5 to karate, then we are off to enjoy the evening...without mommy. The real hurt will come when S5 says something insightful like "Don't you and mommy love each other. When people love each other on valentines day they go to dinner" or some similar thing. He has a knack for things like that.
I am really struggling right now. I feel physically panicked like I used to in the early days. I can control it better now but it still scares me.
I will keep you posted.

GH

((((((Grasshopper)))))))

I'm so sorry this is such a hard day for you. Your friends want to take care of you and let you know that you don't deserve to be treated like this and see you as a victim.

They are partially right. You don't deserve to be treated like this. You are a good man that deserves to be treated with respect, compassion, and dignity. But, they are wrong that you are a victim, that you are being abused. You are an adult and you have chosen to accept this undeserved treatment because it is part of what you need to do FOR YOURSELF. You need to know that you have done your best and respected your own wishes and values by this marriage. You are not a victim, so tell your friends they don't need to defend or protect you. You are an empowered chooser determining what you can determine about the course of your own life.

Contrast a child with a parent who is constantly verbally abusive and manipulative with a psychologist with a patient who is constantly verbally abusive and manipulative. Neither the child nor the psychologist deserves that treatment. But, only the child is abused. It is the choice of the psychologist to endure that treatment because of her own goals. It is also the choice of the psychologist as to what boundaries she sets and enforces.

Now, I'm glad that your W was honest with you about seeing OM. That is at least a sign of respect. I would accept that she has no intention of this being a date with OM. However, it may turn into one out of her feeling guilt over hurting him, or the old "one last time" for closure story, or her fear of being alone because she is realizing how F'ed up her life is. Then again, she may feel compelled to get some closure on that R BECAUSE this day is so important to her she can't face it without doing something to end that chapter. There is NO TELLING. And, even if she were totally honest with what she is thinking, planning, and feeling at this moment, there would be NO TELLING. No matter what, she will be all over the place for quite awhile.

I know what you mean about deal breakers that turn out not to be deal breakers. I did that myself. I think we take things that haven't happened, and we really don't think will happen, and set them up as deal breakers so that we feel we have some smidgen of self-respect. But, this really backfires.

We don't know how we will feel or react when the purported deal breaker happens. And how could we? It's not like we've have multiple experiences to learn what to expect. If it turns out not to be a deal breaker, then our having linked it to our self-respect makes it seem like such another deep blow. Another loss of self-respect, and diminishment and sacrifice of who we are, another step on the way toward getting a permanent "please sh*t on me" tattoo on the forehead.

So, it is best not to impose these deal breaker ideas on yourself. Quit giving yourself ultimatums when it comes to the marriage, lol.

But, you still need to set and maintain boundaries. Personally, I'd quit sharing a marriage bed with someone who was regularly putting another partner before me. But, that is me. Being unwilling to participate in her drama tonight is a great boundary.

And, I'll tell you my trick that is responsible for the great R I have today. My H, then BF, and I were having a difficult time because of old stuff on his side. I had to give myself daily pep talks about it being my choice to endure a pretty good amount of crap because I saw so much potential that it was worth the risk to me. Anyway, my trick was to choose a block of time to which I was committed to handle what was going on. That was my boundary -- I was unwilling to go through the pain without an end in site. At the end of that time, I would then reevaluate things and then make another choice as to whether to commit another probationary block of time, to end the relationship, or to fully commit to the relationship long term.

I committed a one month block of time which was good for me. Too short and it would have been, oh, well, nothing has happened and I have to reevaluate tomorrow (or whatever). Too long and it would have seemed unbearable. Anyway, it gave me huge amounts of strength and patience during that time. It was also very healing I think in terms of finding respect for myself and moving out of victimhood. It was also a very powerful good in my R, I believe, that led to very good outcomes.

So, my advice to you would be to put her on probation for a month or 6 weeks. You do not need to share this with her, it is a tool for you to master your own role in this mess. Observe what happens, take notes, detach. Roll with the punches and step away from the drama when possible. Affirm to yourself that it is your choice to do so. Pay attention to your needs. Question whether an R with W could ever meet those needs. Learn what you want and expect in a permanent R. I'm telling you, the mental time limit on my acceptance of the situation really helped me a lot. And, to emphasize, it wasn't a deal breaker time limit -- if things aren't better by such and such a date then I'm out of here. Rather, it was a time limit on a certain kind of acceptance I would commit to before I reevaluation my choice.

Best,
Oldtimer

Ot...stay out of this...lol...kidding...

So get this. Now my W wants to go to dinner with me and the boys. Oh, she is still going out tonight "just for a bit" but wants to have dinner with us first.
I guess this is fair game since I made plans to take the boys out and did invite her when I first did it.
Whatever. I will go. The kids will enjoy it and we'll take it from there. I still plan on going out with them before she leaves. I'll be damned if I see her walk out of our house, all dressed up to go, well, go somewhere to do something with someone.
I am tired. This is a draining day, but really, despite all thats going on, it is probably going better than I thought. I have not exploded...yet.

GH

P.S. This probation trick was suggested to me by a friend when I was right on the verge of ending things because of by own UNuseful dealbreaker mentality. She did not want to see me treated badly, but she also knew enough DBing that she understood it was important for me to remain open to an R that meant so much to me rather than letting pride, pain, and despair get in the way.

Lol, the dealbreaker mentality reminds me of kids and teenagers who would NEVER do such-and-such, then lo and behold, they do such-and-such. I had a neice, for instance, who would NEVER like alternative rock. Yeah, right. Or new parents who would NEVER do such-and-such. But, they can't really know until they get there.

This has been very helpful for me actually. I have a problem with stubbornness in fights and I think it may have to do with this dealbreaker mentality on some level.

NYS. Valentines day is the day I proposed to my W. It has always been a VERY special day for us and we have always celebrated it as such.... but for me it is VERY personal

Well, either cling to it and suffer, or let it go. Those are your choices. Bottom line is that you're still the one attaching the meaning to the date. We all have a date we met, date we proposed, anniversary, first date, on and on. Sorry to sound harsh about this. It's time to reframe how you look at 2/14. It was what it was back then, and shall always be, but today it does not have that significance, unless you give it that preeminence.

And you're not in that kind of relationship at this moment. Its like you wearing a suit that doesn't fit and then feeling blah because it doesn't feel right.

Ok, now for the worse news. I think made a mistake and lost my only two live humans that I talk to about this. I told them about tonight and they flipped on me. They basically said they could not help me anymore since I am choosing to let this happen. As if I LET anything happen.

Screw them.

I called my W to "talk"

Was that because you're looking toward W to comfort and soothe your upset?

I was convinced that if she could be THIS cold as to blow off our tradition and hurt me this much for HIM, then I was done.

Good Lord. man. She's a Walk-Away!!! She's NOT a "wife" right now!

I CAN control what I do and I am not totally sure what I want to do, if anything.

You don't have to anything but focus on yourself without her thumbprint on you.

Whatever else happens is up to, well, God?

Personally, I don't think so, unless God's culpable for people having affairs. I think the Bible puts it nicely in Proverbs somewhere... that we're all like fish in the sea and can be snared up in a net, that chance and unforeseen circumstances affect us all (no one's doing anything to you, it's just life). And that, what you sow you reap, so for whatever you put into your sitch (cause), there'll be some sort of result (effect). And that the heart is treacherous and cannot be trusted (emotions are fickle and we cannot permit ourselves to be led by them as the results can hurt us rather than help us).

Wow OT, I'm glad you didn't heed my warning...lol.

So, my advice to you would be to put her on probation for a month or 6 weeks. You do not need to share this with her, it is a tool for you to master your own role in this mess.

I REALLY appreciate your words but these in particular were of note to me. I have already done this. It started about 2 weeks ago and will culminate with my Ireland trip. I decided to implement personal goals (see my post about my changes) and see what happened with my R. So far, sorta good.
I have always had in the back of my mind that when we come back from Ireland I will re-evaluate things and see if I want to proceed. It is not an ultimatum, just a point on the horizon that I can focus on and not get TOO discouraged with things.
Even before your post that got me thinking a lot, I guess I realized that I am choosing to endure this. To do that, I need internal help. The time thing helps me feel like even though I am taking a lot of $hit from her, I am only going to do it for xx amount of time. Of course, that time gets extended but it's just a coping tool so wth. I know it's also a form of self promoted denial but hey, it's better than drugs at this point.
Please, keep an eye on me. I really appreciate your opinion (especially when it's a little softer like this time

)

GH

Hmmmmm, I wonder if you were kidding...

Anyway, enjoy dinner. Don't feel jerked around, it is your choice whether or not to go along with her whims at this time. You can always say "no, that doesn't work for me as I would feel too jerked around by agreeing to go with you." Instead you chose to say yes, for your own reasons. Accept the responsibility and the resentment will slide away.

BTW, I think you are right to interpret her increased honesty and her pains to be open as far as she can manage as movement. Movement where, we dunno. But, movement is good. She is getting unstuck from the mire she dove into head first. It's a tough thing, because it requires really beginning self-examination. She's been running, now perhaps she is starting to grow.

Best,
Oldtimer

I have to agree with NY. Screw your friends. If they are truly your friends they will be there for you down the road. I have to good friends who told me the same thing as you. I was hurt and I stopped talking to them for awhile. You know what happened? After awhile they realized our friendship was stronger than their personal opinions and just listened to me. This helped me realize what I needed to do with my W. See if Our M is able to survive!
Today is a special day for you because of your proposal. It always will. It will also be a special day for your W for the rest of her life. Realize she is going through an emmotional turmoil also. It is hard but she needs to deal with it on her own.

Oh yah! Stop giving yourself ultimatiums! I have given myself and my W several of these and you know that, but look at what I am still doing......doing my best to keep our M alive! Your feelings will change day to day on whether you can continue or not. You have to decide for yourself when that day will come. You are putting undo pressure on yourself by giving yourself ulitimatums!
I think you have an excellent plan for today! Execute it and be strong! You are doing awesome and tomorrow will be new day!

Personally, I don't think so, unless God's culpable for people having affairs. I think the Bible puts it nicely in Proverbs somewhere... that we're all like fish in the sea and can be snared up in a net, that chance and unforeseen circumstances affect us all (no one's doing anything to you, it's just life). And that, what you sow you reap, so for whatever you put into your sitch (cause), there'll be some sort of result (effect). And that the heart is treacherous and cannot be trusted (emotions are fickle and we cannot permit ourselves to be led by them as the results can hurt us rather than help us).

Good lord man, now you're breaking down scripture. You da MAN!
Thank you for the slap my friend. You are speaking the truth and I know it. Hard to practice sometimes, but true.

Screw them.

Um, no thanks. They're hairy and men...not my type. I'm hard up but not THAT far gone yet.

Good Lord. man. She's a Walk-Away!!! She's NOT a "wife" right now!

Interesting concept.

Was that because you're looking toward W to comfort and soothe your upset?

No, I just wanted to grill her some more. I wanted to painfully extract information from her. If anything maybe like the "snoopers" I thought she may tell me something that, yes, might make me feel better.
As I said, it was mainly about anger, not sadness. Glad it didn't happen. Another learning experience.

You don't have to anything but focus on yourself without her thumbprint on you.

I think she prefers to use her middle finger to "imprint" me.

"self-promoted denial"??? BAH. What kind of YUCK-speak is that????

How about, "Self-promoted respect". You don't know how you will feel at the end of the time period, what you will want, what you will tolerate. No need to issue an ultimatum to yourself. That doesn't mean you are in denial or avoiding anything. It means that you are committing to something manageable right now and are realistic enough and caring enough of yourself to revise your aims in light of new information you gather during the time period. Come on, you should be proud of your capacity to take responsibility for whatever is next while recognizing it is uncertain and only time will bring news of the future. That is a strong, empowered position.

"self-imposed denial" JEEZ!!!!

You talk nice to yourself Grasshopper and respect that in yourself that you would respect in others.

Best,
Oldtimer

GH, I'm here..I'm here okay? I'm thankful that OT has reached out to you. She's one helluva together lady I have to say. In fact OT, if you get the chance we've started a thread in Survived. I think it would be nice to get your input Done Dance

Anyway, back to you GH. I'm sorry that you have to go through this...hell sorry that we have all had to go through our own personal hells so to speak. Sorry that today is an important day to you.

Not sure if you have been reading my thread over in Survived the D, but this afternoon I'll be putting my 20yr cat to sleep for the very last time. 20yrs...through one long marriage and another long R. She's been with me since she was just a mere 6wks old. I was pretty traumatized this am, crying hysterically as I held her knowing that this was the hardest thing I would ever do in my life but had to do. Trying to find some strength in me to even make the call. My exH who promised me just a couple of days ago to be there for me, chickened out, he can't be there he said. So I face it alone. Of course, to add insult to injury, he thinks our daughter should go. But from somewhere I pulled this Scarlett O'Hara strength out of me and I'm doing it...and I'm done with all the crap in my life. I needed someone, anyone today and realized there is no one here...no one to hold me, comfort me when I need them...and somehow my friend, I'm pulling through this...and the feeling I have inside right now is something I can't even begin to describe. Anyway why am I spilling out here...because I've got to move on and keep a promise to my daughter about a Vday dinner for her and her BF tonight. I can choose to sit here and contine to mourn for my loss or I can come back with a fighting vengeance that noone including myself has ever seen.

Same thing for you my friend. You are not a victim here, you have control over your life...You've made excellent progress in such a short amount of time. STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP!! You've got some excellent advice from OT and NYS here...when you get down on yourself, you need to go back and reread some of what they have been telling you.

Thank goodness I am not you, because I would have told W that she was not welcome to the dinner with you and the boys, that she had changed and interrupted too many plans to fit into her own schedule. I would have taken back the gift to VS and not gotten her anything. But that's just the new me...sorry.

"self-imposed denial" JEEZ!!!!

Ok fine. I won't make up anymore psychobabble...geez...

I love your psychobabble......maybe you can write a book on it once all this is behind you....................I only want 75% of the profits!

Hey,

the psychobabble is useful, it gives us terms to talk about things we haven't learned how to talk about. Just check your spin and make it positive

And hey, you're making me laugh, which is making me smile after I finish laughing, if you know what I mean. That is, I'm happy for you.

Also, I'm glad you think I'm softer. It is hard for me to be soft when I hurt, and I was hurting for you (in a good way, not in an enmeshed yucky way). But, when I get like that, my defensiveness/anger/passion/whatever it is about the hurt makes it hard for me to do anything other than just be very direct and let go in sometimes a bit of a tough way. But, it is either that or be silent, and it got to the point that I couldn't bear the silence. (I know, I'm a weirdo, lol.)

Anyway, keep those bright eyes and secure self on for the rest of the day, they suit you well. I've got to get back to work and step away from the board, lol.

Best,
Oldtimer

Not to hijack, but reading these posts has given me a lot of personal strength today. Thank you.

enmeshed
defensiveness/anger/passion/whatever

And YOU are calling ME out...lol.

GH

Thank you Lisa. I knew you wouldn't leave.

Really sorry to hear about your kitty. I know how hard it is. We had to give ours up when we moved into an apartment between our old house and this one. It really hurt. (((hugs)))).

Thank goodness I am not you, because I would have told W that she was not welcome to the dinner with you and the boys, that she had changed and interrupted too many plans to fit into her own schedule. I would have taken back the gift to VS and not gotten her anything.

Oh, trust me, the thought crossed my mind, and actually still is. As for taking her gift back, I sorta did. I took 1/2 of it back. lol. It was too much under the circumstances and I think besides the "other" reason I had for taking it back, it would have sent the wrong message. I am not trying to send any message at all. I am just trying to return the favor of my...er...(can I call her my wife NYS?) female roomate...lol.

GH

Time is short, but how about a pool for who can predict what my W's card to me will say!
I just decided to get anxious about that. Isn't it great. I now DECIDE what to obsess over. lol. It's progress, no?

In all seriousness, I am curious what, if anything it will say beyond the standard printing on the card. Hell, if she's like me, she didn't find one that was appropriate.
What would a care appropriate to our sitch look like?
Maybe a photo of a knife with blood on it and inside it would say "Thinking of you on this day of lovers. Sorry I can't be there with you, I am with another guy."
Or how about "Honey, I would like to say how much our life together meant to me before I met my new man. Now I just want to tell you how much I care about you and hope you can start dating so I can stop feeling so guilty. Happy Valentines Day!"
Oh, I know. "My dearest husband. You are the love of my life. You are the apple of my eye. You make my world go around. Unfortunately I have to donate blood all night tonight and won't be able to make dinner, a movie or ML later. Happy Valentines Day."
Oh well. Maybe there is a future for us in the "dark side" of the greeting card industry.

GH

Interesting pool....I'll let you in on my W's card to me this morning..

The front: Your Love Means So Much To Me

Inside: I'm paraphrasing, but in essence, it was an appreciation for my love for her. Anyone see what's missing here?

To her credit, I did get some chocholates and peanut butter fudge (yum!)....apparently trying to counteract my LBS diet!!!

Maybe we can start a pool on what the OP's card says??

Swish, Smack!

That is the sound of you being hit with the DB whip. I know it's hard for you today, but you are getting worse as the day goes on. Please, please, please go for a run or something and get it out of your system. No things are not great between you and your W, but things are showing signs of improving if you don't slip back into your old behavior.

SuperStressed

SS,

Were you talking to me or Rob? I am getting better as the day goes on. Dunno if my post really conveys that. I feel much better than I did a few hours ago.
I am NOT going to do anything tonight to backslide. I am going to be a perfect gentleman.

GH

GH,

It was meant for you but maybe you don't really need it as much as I thought. Does Rob need a good swack? I can certainly give him one too if need be.

You don't have to be the "perfect" gentleman but I hate to see you feeling so negative about things when you seem to have so many positive things too. I'm glad to hear you are feeling a little better.

SuperStressed

Lol, yes, I'd say it is progress to recognize your weakness here and treat it with laughter. You are right that no matter where her head is, that purchasing a card (if she did) was hard for her.

Anyway, if you need help building your arsenal of self-directed arrows, here's one to consider adding. Maybe, she'll write: "I used that 2 for 1 coupon for Hallmark. Boy, it was especially tough to find a card that worked for both of you, but I didn't want to play favorites."

In all seriousness, I'd put my money on some note that tries to get her off the hook, to relieve her guilt in some way...

Something like, "Dear H, you are a wonderful man and a great father. I am so sorry for putting you through this, I just need to do this for me right now."

If so, I'd suggest you validate for both your sakes, and validate both sides.
Wow, thanks for the card, it means alot to me that you recognize and acknowledge my hurt. And, I know that you are a good woman and you don't want to cause me pain. It must hurt you too because you are a caring person. I understand that you feel it is truly what you need to do right now. It must be so hard to be in that position and I know it takes a lot of courage for you to find your way through it.

Now look, I know it would be hard to say such stuff. But, first, it's true, or you wouldn't want her back. Second, the overwhelming guilt she feels is a huge barrier to her being able to have an R with you. Third, though you may not see it, she really is brave (if misguided) and taking steps to become happy, as painful as the process may be. So, acknowledging that it is important for her to own her own happiness is not a bad thing. It doesn't mean that you think she is taking the right path to do it. But, the compassionate you knows that we will all have misteps. The greater our pain, the easier it is to stumble.

Best,
Oldtimer

Sassy, thanks. Yes, smack Rob. Lol.

You made me think...

Positives today:

-W is much more interactive with me AND the boys lately. She has more energy and seems to be warming up to "us" a bit.
-The trip to Ireland is a focal point for us right now and is taking some of the daily stress away. Maybe a mask, but a good one at that.
-I am much more stable now. Not much backsliding, at least in person. Here is another story.
-W seemed to indicate that the OM thing is turning negative. Dunno if that's true. If so, great.
-I am doing ok with DB and focusing on me. Got a basketball game to go to tomorrow night and may just head out afterwards to parts unknown.
-and many more...

Negatives:
-W is going out with the MFing OM on Valentines day!

I suppose the scale would tip in the positive's favor...

GH

Ot,

I think your prediction will be RIGHT on and I love your advice of what to do. I am going to do my best to validate.

For you, and everyone else, I do have a question. How is it that these people (WAS) seem to think everything is about them, EVEN things WE do. I ask because whenever I tell her I am going out, or doing something, she assumes it is a reaction to something she did or said. I mean I can't go to the bathroom without her thinking it's revenge for her affair.
When I told her I was taking the boys out for Valentines day she asked why? Um, because I want to take them out. Oh, you mean is it because I am going out and you're pissed so you don't want to be here?
No, I want to take my sons out and have fun instead of wallowing in self pity.
I guess I do a poor job of "as if" sometimes but even when I am legit in doing something for myself she takes credit for it. Geez.

GH

Wait....why am I the one to get smacked!?!

For you, and everyone else, I do have a question. How is it that these people (WAS) seem to think everything is about them, EVEN things WE do. I ask because whenever I tell her I am going out, or doing something, she assumes it is a reaction to something she did or said.

That's so true of LBSs too. It's true of most people. It's called "Personalization": a common, distorted cognitive reasoning process. Ah, I remember when "personalization" simply meant getting a pen with my name on it.

I mean I can't go to the bathroom without her thinking it's revenge for her affair.

It's not? I thought it had quite the symbolic meaning.

Wait....why am I the one to get smacked!?!

Cuz you know you probably deserve it, and we just didn't find out yet what it was you did that you deserve it for.

Well, how about no card. She says she has one but didn't get a chance to write anything in it. BS. The gift thing went fine. Really no reaction...from either of us. She got me some shirt and boxer shorts (see I got sexy undies too).
Oh well, she went to the store (prolly to get a card) and then we are going out. She is NOT going out with us. I suggested (after she seemed annoyed trying to think of where to go) that it would probably be better if she just do her thing and we would do ours as planned. She said ok.

I am not really ok. I am pacing about. I will use this time to gather myself and get the car seats in. We need to go before daddy does something he will regret. I am close, but still under control. Will let you know how it plays out.

GH

Hi Grasshopper,

You are doing great. It sounds to me like you did a good job handling her to-be-expected ambivalence once dinner plans were back on again. You were patient and accepting when she wanted back in on the dinner, but did not get caught up in her drama about being torn and conflicted about going. You reached your "enough point" on that score and stood by it.

Who knows, she might flip flop again, for, she might feel for the first time that she isn't being guilted into going. Then again, she might not. She might be relieved. Or, she might feel stuck, feeling unworthy of having dinner with you. WTF knows, lol. You don't need to know, you have stepped away from the dinner issue and moved on.

Oh, and don't leave an open ended invite -- well, you know where we'll be in you change your mind. That is pressure, or she will experience it as such, even if you just mean to be nice to her. She will know where you'll be, I assume, because of the kids. She can suck it up and join you or not.

Best,
Oldtimer

GH you are doing awesome!
I have to thank everyone OT, Rob, NY, SS, and anyone else I missed on GH post today! It has been great and very educational!
Rob you do need a smack but only after I get mine first! Sometimes we all need the kick in the butt to get our brains operational again! Which brings me to the bathroom analogy.....I LOVE IT! I am with you Rob I am saving my personal business for when I get home, and I can have achuckle to myself while I contemplate life!
GH stay strong my friend, and you are an example to many of us!
If you missed it earlier I still want 75% of the profits from your psychobabble book!

Ok, I will try to remember everything, good and bad.

After the presents thing my W went to the store. I gathered myself and got the kids ready to go.
When she got back she did a few things and out of the blue she said "I asked you if you made any new friends because I saw a gift bag in your car." WTF!
I laughed and said "That's funny. It was for you but I got the VS stuff so I didn't need it."
Then, of course, I said...(sorry people)..."I don't think you REALLY want to start that conversation now do you?"
and...

W: No, not really.
M: Good, because I am not the one going out with another man on V-day.
W: I know.
M: Is it that important to you?
W: Like I said, it is just a coincidence that it's on v-day. It's the only time I can go.
M: Ok fine.
W: I know we need to talk.
M: Ok, when?
W: Soon. This can't go on much longer. We need to talk about that.
M: I assume you don't mean WE need to talk about that.
W: No, I need to talk about it tonight [with OM].
M: Ok. That should go well.
W; Yea.
M; (hug) I know it's hard for you too, and above all else, take care of yourself please.
W: I will.

We probably said more, and despite what it sounded like, it was a pretty ok convo. I said some questionable things but the gist is that she said she was going to talk to OM tonight about ending the A. I don't know if she even knows what is going to happen. I sure as hell don't.

So I took the boys out to dinner and when I got back, I found a box of french chocolates, a candle and a card. In the card was...

Front: With Love....Valentine
Inside Printed: You mean everything to me.

Her words: I know that I've put you through a lot but you are still my husband and I still love you.

Um, sorry, I didn't make my goal... I am not jumping for joy or anything, but it is nice to read that. Guess I'm a sucker.

What do you think? I think I did ok. She started the R talk a bit but I did not do a good job holding back entirely. I slipped but it was a FAR cry from what I had in my mind to say and do.
I am ok for now. Not believing much of anything right now. Actions, not words are my religion right now.
We'll see.

GH

Sounds good Grasshopper. And, you got the card we both predicted :-)

So, when she gets home give her a hug, and then before anything else, thank her for recognizing you as a valuable human being in her life and as one that experiences pain, and then validate her warmly and sincerely.

BTW, I think it was important for her to do this TODAY because of the particular importance of the date for the two of you -- it forced her to self-examination and action. So, though she says it is just a day, given her attention and struggle with the day otherwise, I'd say she experiences the significance of it as much as you.

Best,
Oldtimer

Thanks OT. I will give her that hug. I also think you are right about the timing of the thing, if it is indeed what she said it is.
I am a little confused at why she would not just come out and say, clearly, that she was breaking things off with him. I suppose there are a million reasons why she didn't, but leaving the possibility open to NOT do that is one I can think of.
Like I said, I don't KNOW anything so I will wait and see.
NOW, there were a bunch of you who questioned my gift selection because it signified something romantic/intimate. I told you that the PJ's were neither of those things.
WELL, she gave me a candle. THAT is something in our life that signifies romance and intimacy. I am not going to read into it, but suffice to say I WOULD NOT have gotten her a candle because of the instant meaning she would have attributed to it (I want $ex). Go figure.

GH

GH,

You're not a sucker. Maybe it's just me, but your conversation seemed relatively calm and not as emotional as it could have been. Maybe your W is finally leaving the mother ship.

If she does actually end things with the OM, you need to be prepared for a whole rush of feelings on both sides. She may be mourning the loss of him whether he was a crap or not. And you will need to restrain your feelings of wanting her full attention and your major (and justified) lack of trust.

That said, I don't want to jump the gun as we don't know what will really be happening tonight. No assuming right? I just want you to be prepared. You also need to prepare for the possibility that she can't let him go.

Anyway she's recognized that she's hurt you and still loves you. That's a baby step in the right direction.

SuperStressed

Thanks SS. No, no jumping any weapons of any sort, gun or otherwise.
Who knows what she's up to.

Anyway, thanks for the support. I did the best I could, and no, it was not that emotional at all. That's what I feel good about. It was a bit sarcastic at times, but overall, it was just two people expressing their feelings without getting angry or defensive. Pretty good.

GH

GH,

Super friggin' fantastic my man. Very positive on all angles. You did a great job with the convo and it really sounds like she opened up to you. I congratulate you and am so very happy for you this evening. You are on the right track here, keep up the good work!

Thanks Rob. Yea, all that but she's still out...sigh.

How goes it with you?

GH

You know, it sounds like she is caught up in a pretty classic scenario....she has started this other thing and then her H became this great guy and now she sees her mistake but doesn't know how to break it off with the other guy. I honestly think in the near future you can expect to hear that tonite was about her attempting to break it off. It is one night. It is a very important night, but would you give up tonite if you knew it meant you'd have her every V-Day from now on?

Becca,

Welcome, and you make a great point, one that I realized early on and has kept me going strong, albeit cautiously tonight.
Only time will tell. Thank you for your encouragement. I will let you know how, or if it goes...

GH

Right on man, you have at least the right attitude and indeed, if it means giving this one V-day up to have the rest of them all to you, then its a small sacrifice indeed. Thanks Becca, that also help me put some things into perspective as well.

Guys (and girls) I won't lie. I am not going to DO anything about it, but I am getting worried. Really, I am just worried about my W. If she is just "out" then fine, but if she went with the intention of breaking things off with this guy, I am worried about his reaction. If he is "in love' who knows how he will react.
Funny, normally I would be stressing because she is not home when she said she would be. Now I am hoping that's all it is this time...BIG knot in my stomach.
Wish I could just feel like it's not my place to worry. I know she's a big girl (actually, a tiny girl) and is making her own decisions but I can't help this feeling.
I guess I will just have to let it play out. I just hope she's ok.

GH

your reaction is absolutely normal GH, its okay to worry but keep things in perspective. Is she normally this late? Remember, if she IS trying to break things off, it could take some time. Keep us updated!

You know parts 1 & 2 of my V-day saga. The last part (when the W returned from seeing the OM) started at around 11:00pm and ended at about 11:06pm. She came home and said she was tired. She looked really drained. I asked her if everything was ok and she said "Yea but I don't want to talk about it tonight. Tomorrow."
I said ok and that was about it. Gave her a hug, said happy V-day, thank you for the card, candle and candy. I went upstairs to bed and that was that.
I am going to need some help for you all if she has indeed tried to, or actually broke things off with OM.
I am confused, but you all warned me. She acted much colder towards me last night than in the past several days. I have read that I could take that as a positive. I remember someone posting that if you don't see signs of emotional turmoil. depression, or some kind of trauma, then likely they have not ended things with OM.
Well, my W shows those signs. I am trying not to read into things because it's equally possible that she didn't break things off at all and is feeling really guilty about being out on V-day. Or, none of the above.

One thing seems known. She is starting to express remorse and her "ILY" in the V-day card was the first one in a LONG time.
You all say to hold the course and that it will still be bumpy, even IF she's done the deed.
I will try. It is just confusing that she wouldn't reach out to me if she is looking at me as her "husband" again. I suppose she still may be evaluating my progress and if she has done anything about "him" it may be only because she knew that was bad, not necessarily that WE are totally good.
I am going to DB my arse off, and make sure I detach from whatever mood she finds herself in. I have been warned. I heed that warning.
Chime in if you will.

GH

I think the most important thing for you is to not read into anything yet. It is likely that if she did break things off with OM, then she will be experieincing a period of remorse. It is obviously critical that you be there for her in a supportive manner to help pick up the pieces. Do not personalize her emotions and do not react to them.

GH, I am really so happy for you at this point, it seems as though at the very least there has been some progress in your R, it may not be a total reconciliatioin yet, but I see so much positive right now. Stay the course and keep us updated!

Thanks Rob. I see positives too.
It's hard to believe any of them after what I have gone through the past month but I know they are there and probably real.
It looks like I may not be the only one using the Ireland trip date as a "line" of some sort. All things point to her trying to resolve this by then. We'll see.
I have not heard from her today. Dunno what the day will bring.
She didn't come to be until around 2:30am so she was barley conscious when I left at 6:30am.
If I know my W (uh, well, that's a BIG if these days) she will bury whatever is going on. I don't have much hope that she'll let me in on what happened last night so I will have to continue to observe and try not to react to what I THINK may be happening.
This is hard for different reasons that it's been hard in the past.

GH

Just talked to W. As I thought, today is just another day in happy-land. So I will display some impatience here. If she continues to not address this, do I just let it go or since she brought up the "we need to talk" thing, would I not be out of line to ask?
I am, of course, going to give it time to see what her actions are, but IF she goes out at some point, or keeps getting her garage calls, I am back where I started and maybe that would be wrong.
Ok. Don't read into anything. I guess I need to do better with that.

So...as I post, she calls again. We discussed some thing we need for the trip and I reminded her that I have a basketball game tonight. "Oh...ok..." She sounded disappointed. Damn this is hard. I don't want to live my life looking for her approval but right now, today, a day when things may be turning, is it a mistake for me to leave tonight?

GH

Warning: Rationalization ahead!

I should have been specific and asked if I should go to a basketball game, the single most contentions activity in our R? I posted awhile back that she used to almost beg me not to go and stay with her for years and finally just stopped. I think that's when things started to change in her. I have cut back (even before this thing) because I recognized that it was damaging our marriage.
I am just wondering if it will bring back the feelings in her that I am not going to be around much. That is my main concern.
For her part, she has asked in the past few weeks why I have not gone much. I reminded her that I told her I was cutting back and she just said "oh. ok."
I guess I should go but I am just so gunshy right now about making a mistake.
Go ahead, slap away....

GH

That was a good realization on your part. Yes apparently it did have some effect on her and clearly your backing off of it was enough for her to notice (that makes it a 180). Makes you think eh?

Okay, so yes you need to GAL again...how often were you going out to the games? I am assuming this is something that she did not join you in, correct? Was this a guys night out, did she also have a girls night out before om? What hobbies and interests, if any did you do jointly?

In our sitch, we went out at least 2x a week. Once we got serious into the darts we were going 3x a week. There were times I would stay home one night a week, but generally we were together when we went out. Then Dave had guys night out, which I had to push him to do, come to find out, he really didn't want it, but I've always firmly believed that men just need time with the men to do whatever it is ya'll do. I didn't have girls night out, I just preferred the alone time, generally Sunday nights, bubble bath, wine and my tv shows in peace and quiet.

There is a fine line you are walking here. Too much will be considered too much. Whatever 180 you have done, she HAS noticed. So step back and think about this here. What do you think she feels acceptable? Some women honestly don't go much for their Hs to go out with the guys. That issue should be addressed to, a comfort level between the two with both sides being equally respected. This is one of those times where communication really does help.

Ok. Sorry. My threads go WAY back and it's time to clarify this issue fully. My bad.

I write a weekly column and photograph NBA games for a local paper. My work only REQUIRES me to go to one game a week, and even no games a week if I need to not go for some reason. The pay is not that good but I love doing it and my W knows that. She used to watch with me on TV when I didn't have a game at home. She did go to a few games too early on. It seemed like something she did for me. Actually we both made that kind of effort...ah the beauty of young love.
So, I was going to 2-3 games a week when we met and continued that for years. After awhile, she started to ask me every once and awhile to skip a game here and there, which I usually found some excuse not to do. When the kids were born, I did not really cut back, even though she put pressure on me to. She never really came out and asked me not to go, but I knew it was an issue.
Eventually, it came out that she really thought of me going to the games as more of a hobby because it did not pay nearly as much as my other work does and while she supported me having hobbies, she did not buy my excuse that "I had to go" to the games because the money was not enough to "make" me do anything. That was about 2 years ago.
I started cutting back then, and this season, I have REALLY cut back. I have only been to one game in the last month, mainly because the games either fell after my column deadline, or the team was on the road.
Tonight is a little different because when we were at my nieces b-day party, an NBA ref friend (just happens to be the next door neighbor of my SIL) asked me if I was going to be at tonight's game and would I take a couple pictures of him (the don't ever get photos of themselves). She was there and actually answered for me that I would go.
I know, this all sounds convoluted but bottom line is that I don't HAVE to go tonight. She will go along with it like she has for all these years but having NO idea if she was planning on talking to me tonight, I don't want to throw this in her face. I suppose I am putting WAY too much significance on this, right?

GH

Hi Gh,

It seems like in this particular situation it would be ok to discuss going vs not going with your w. I wouldn't consider this an R talk, merely an act of consideration. Just say, " Look, it seems as if you don't want me to go to this game tonight. I have no problem missing the game but I was going to take some pictures of... because he requested it. If you would like me not to go then I'll get some photos of him the next time. It's not a problem either way."

I don't know, something along this line. If she tells you straight up what she wants (which seems to be a new 180 for her) then listen. If she seems to be pulling the it's ok go but uses actions to show otherwise then don't be pulled into the game playing.

Thanks flaneur. She already told me to go but I know that tone of voice. In any event, I am not going. I don't think I can get my spot to shoot from and it just works out better.
For the record, recently I have asked her before each game, but she is not one to say "don't go" anymore. I think she's over that. Kinda like me with the physical affection thing. I was rejected one too many times and now I just don't do it. She probably feels the same way, that I won't stay even if she asks, or worse yet, if I do stay (oh and I failed to mention this part) that I would be in a mood all night, something that was the case in the past.
Anyway, I am still afraid she will take my cancelation as being done for her sake but I don't really care. It is what it is. I can't worry about those things anymore.

GH

Go to the game. Offer to bring her along. You photographing the game is your time, your thing. Doesn't matter how much you get paid or not, it's what YOU want to do, it's part of YOUR life you enjoy. It's YOUR interest. Keep that boundary. She either accepts or fights against it, let's see which. It doesn't mean you're neglecting her, nor giving up yourself either.

NYS,

Due to other circumstances (not getting my floor spot) I am not going. I could still go, but there would be no point. I left her a VM to the effect that I got bumped from the game and that's that.
The issue now moves to what she thinks about me staying home. I can't really control what she thinks. These things happen.

GH

Waiting. Just waiting. W is not answering her phone today. Needed to tell her about a funds transfer she wanted done. Nothing.
Ok so maybe she felt smothered but to go from answering her phone all the time, and calling me all the time (oh, and getting pissed if I EVER didn't answer for her) to now not answering for hours at a time irks me. Then she makes up reasons why she didn't answer, or maybe she doesn't. I know you all kill me when I do this but I am just comparing my W with who she has always been and when I see signs that parts of that woman are coming back, I think the rest of her is too. The part of her that doesn't answer her phone seems to be directly tied to the OM. I guess if I don't call, she can't NOT answer...lol.
I thought this was past us now, OM or no OM.
I am expecting too mu..er... Ok, I am expecting, and that's bad. Gotta stop, especially today.
So I can't ask her what's up, I can't call her, I can't trust her, so I am relegated to just sitting back and detaching still. Great. I know better but I thought I may be able to relax for a couple hours. I WILL relax but I will have to work on it a bit more.
There are real world positives and real world negatives in my sitch. There are also a world of thoughts in my head that I really need to put a stop to. I know I need to...Stop sign vision...
So, before it's said, I know I am bringing this all on myself to some extent and it's up to me to stop it. I am not a victim and I am acting like one. Own the moment...

GH

Okay, well you just killed my chances at offering any advice. Heed your own words!

Oh great. I'm so good now I just give myself advice...lol.

She called..."Hey, did you try to call awhile ago...yes...ok, whats up.."

Who knows. Anyway, she didn't make an issue about the game. She seems happy that I will be home, not that it really matters.

She seems to have been shopping for luggage. Damn, that woman can power-shop...didn't buy anything tho...

GH

Well, I did a baby bo-bo. The night went ok. Family time. Pretty good.
Then at about 9:30 her phone rang. She checked it and let it ring. OM. I tried to mask my emotion and thought I did ok. My W knows me too well. She called me on it later. She said ever since her phone rang I was quiet. She said "Don't worry, I'm not going to make a phone call in front of you."
I simply said "Didn't you want to talk." She said "No, why." I said "You said we would need to talk after last night. Is there anything to talk about?" She said "No, not right now." And the grand finale, I said "Ok" and put a smile on, went upstairs to finish the taxes. A few minutes later I walked back down the stairs and looked serious at her and said "Well, I do have one question for you."
She said "ok". I said with a smile "Do you know what our mortgage interest was?" She smiled...I asked "What? What did you think I was going to ask?" with a big grin. It broke the ice a bit. I have been fine with her since then.
I am not saying it was good to do what I did, but I wanted to give her the opportunity if she wanted it to talk. I guess in her time she either will or won't.
And I move on to the next episode...

GH

GH, I think you are being hard on yourself here....I see nothing wrong with the way you handled the sitch at all. Sure, you had a very minor slip, but you immediately corrected and turned the experience into a positive. Bravo!

By the way, interesting that she didn't want to talk to OM......

Rob, thanks for that. I think I did ok. Really, I think I got lucky but whatever the reason, it went ok. I just hope she talks soon.

And as for not wanting to talk to OM, no, not interesting. Remember, she doesn't usually keep her phone in the house. I don't know why it was in, but she would NOT answer it in front of me, or on the 2 occasions she did, she made a BIG deal out of it.
I guess I am lucky that she is not throwing it in my face. I also guess I know why she keeps her phone out in her car...lol.
Anyway, I do not read anything into her not answering. I am relatively sure they talked at least once later on. Will not speculate on how long, or what they talked about.

GH

Well, you know as well as I do that she will not talk until its time. This is probably one of my biggest complaints as well with my W....I'm ready to talk at the drop of a hat, but she will clam up until the day that she feels ready to open up. I also happen to think that your W and my W are very similar. In the event that my W moves beyond OM, I don't think it will be with any great fanfare and she will likely NOT want to talk about it. Her actions will be the true indicator. In time, she will be ready, but only on her time.

In the event that my W moves beyond OM, I don't think it will be with any great fanfare and she will likely NOT want to talk about it.

I totally agree with that. My W is a true conflict avoider, which will make it hard for her to break things off with him, and harder still to talk about it with me because she will think I won't take it well.
I just need some kind of closure, or at least a jumping off point to say "ok, now we are ready to work on US again."
If she won't ever confirm or deny that the OM is gone, how can I do that?
I guess the real question is how do we "close" the marriage again and go back to the state of being where it's NOT ok to cheat without them committing to the OM being gone?
It's a tough question and one that will likely not have a neat and clean answer for either of us.
We just need to realize that DB extends beyond this point. I used to think it was just a set of tools designed to get us TO this point of our W's thinking about us again, but now I see that we need to continue to practice DB to maintain through this transition. I think we are in a perilous place right now and reacting from impatience or emotion will get us in trouble.
Keep the faith.

GH

I don't remember having any conversation after the EA where my W and I set the record straight.

Oh yea, I forgot you'd know about that stuff. lol.

GH

GH,

I sense a backsliding coming on.

I just need some kind of closure, or at least a jumping off point to say "ok, now we are ready to work on US again." If she won't ever confirm or deny that the OM is gone, how can I do that?

You don't have to look to her for an answer on this. All along you have been working on "us" without her. When the OM was around did you stop working on your M because he was in the picture? Of course not. And just because he is out of the picture does not mean things are clear on her end. Just do what you can do and eventually, if she wants to, your W will follow. As Rob said, it need not be done with any great fanfare.

I guess the real question is how do we "close" the marriage again and go back to the state of being where it's NOT ok to cheat...

It was never OK to cheat. And your old M is already closed. Now you have to work on rebuilding. Kinda like after a hurricane--something terrible that came along and left you devastated but did not destroy your spirit or your ability to rebuild.

SuperStressed

GH good work my friend! You have done good!
For you and Rob I have to remind you that I did actually achieve that point of reconciliation that we are all hoping for. You both mentioned that DB must become your way of life and continue! It is a must and it is where I failed!
Once I got my back together with my W, I thought I was out of the woods! WRONG! You need to work harder then!

GH, if and when it does appear that the OM is gone, you may want to suggest that the two of you attend one of those weekend marriage retreats. Those things work like intensive counseling and can sometimes produce dramatic results.

Even if she still hasn't completely broken it off with the OM, those things can still sometimes work.

I sense a backsliding coming on.

I don't think so. I really think I got my need to ask her to talk out last night. She made it clear that she doesn't want to right now so I am good for awhile. Sure, I feel like it would be GREAT if she just declared her undying love for me and said how totally wrong all this was. Yea, just like I hope for world peace and all that...
No, I am ok. I will not push. I will observe and see what happens.
On that note, I guess it's a common thing for my W to be saying, like she did on V-day, things like "if you only knew" when I get in a huff about the OM. She seems to be suggesting that if I knew what's going on I would not be concerned. I don't know if I remembered this in my V-day update, but that's actually how the talk we had started. She said "if you only knew" when I was acting miffed about her going out. I immediately said, well, then tell me so I do know if it would make me feel better. Again, not great DB, but it worked to get her to open up a bit.

It was never OK to cheat. And your old M is already closed. Now you have to work on rebuilding. Kinda like after a hurricane--something terrible that came along and left you devastated but did not destroy your spirit or your ability to rebuild.

Oh sure, go with the hurricane ref for the florida boy!
Seriously, that is a good way to think about it, and really how I have thought about it for most of the time. This is a new thing we are going into and it is thinking it's the same ole marriage that will contribute to our downfall.
Thanks.

GH

It was a quiet day today. After work, I went home and picked the W and kids up for an evening shopping at the mall. I was excited because my W found out that one of the big department stores was having a 75% off sale and I need new clothes badly. Also, a lot of what was on sale was winter stuff that I'll need in Ireland.
SO, we go to the mall, get tons of stuff for me and only a jacket for my W. It was really weird. I NEVER buy clothes and it was really nice to get some cool new duds.
After shopping for me, the boys and I ate while W went shopping for a little bit more. After that I took the boys to the car to wait for W to finish and the only real drama of the night began, and trust me, this is a reach. When I loaded my stuff in the trunk (her car) I saw a stack of DVD's. They looked like some that I got for Christmas and some we have owned for awhile, but of the 6-7 that were there, only one was anything my W would ever choose to watch.
When she called me to come pick her up I asked her if they were our DVD's and she said yes. That was all.
When we got home she wend into this really awkward explanation (I didn't even ask) about how she put them in her car because she thought she may watch one if she got bored and didn't want to go home after the gym one day but then realized that the portable DVD player was not in the car....um....wow.
They can't help themselves, can they? I mean come on, I didn't ask what was up with them because it was obvious it was for date night (and please, if you saw the selection of movies, you would not even come close to suggesting I am wrong about this one). Don't ask, don't get a really forced, bad lie.
So, I blew it off. No point in dwelling on something so silly. Funny that she would lie about it but hey, to each their own.
All in all, it was a good night. I modeled the clothes, and got lots of compliments. Oh, and she also said she never thought she'd see the day I was so excited to shop for, and buy clothes. I told her I always liked to do it but my taste was a little expensive so I didn't bother. Of course I added that since I look so good now and feel even better, I wanted to get some clothes to reflect that.
She commented "Shame it took so long." It wasn't too venomous but she got the point across. I didn't reply. I just let it slide. I was feeling too good.
So I am all geared up for Ireland and I can't wait to go.
I just hope this little DB dance I am doing can hold up that long. There is still the frustration of the OM still being around (as I walked up to her in the store after taking S3 to the bathroom she was on the phone and quickly got off when she saw me) and I need to keep that in check.
So, like I said, a rather uneventful night, which these days is good.
I hope you all are doing ok and I will catch up with you tomorrow.

GH

Yea, you want to know the funniest thing my W keeps saying? "I will NEVER see another Brad Pitt movie again!"
Go figure...

GH

You all wanna hear the worst reason any of us have been reduced to tears?
Tonight was literally moved to tears by my W's butt. Damn, it's been a LONG time...

Really quiet night other than that truly weak moment...

GH

Well, today is not starting out really well. Nothing much going on and as they say, an idle mind is the devil's playground.
I keep having thoughts go through my head about how I feel like I am about done with all this. I know I have been here a thousand times before and it won't last. It feels like I get to a place where I really feel good about myself and thats when I look at this sitch and think "I don't need this anymore." I don't really feel that way but it's now that it seems like it would be so easy to just tell my W to either stay or go, I don't care which.
The weekends usually bring this on and this one is no exception. I will get past it with any luck at all.
Still holding out hope that Ireland will do me a lot of personal good and maybe do something for my R. We'll see.

GH

Her butt!
The smell of my W perfume on a pillow did it to me the other day!
Men are supposed to be more sensitive aren't we?
Amazing I never noticed these things until we seperated!

Welp, it was a truly uneventful day. No backslides, no drama at all.
I am still having those thoughts of W. I think sometime soon I will approach her about it. It would be a 180 for me to actually talk seriously about being affectionate rather than just insinuate I would like to have sex or make some kind of sarcastic comment.
I used to tell her she looked great, but never really in the context of "hey, you look great and I really want to kiss you right now."
I know right now is not the time for that, but I am sensing that things like that were REALLY missing in our R, and I know she likes it.
Anyway, thats about all for now. I will post more if there is more to post. It's off to my parents for my mom's birthday tomorrow and who knows what else. Going into the two prime date nights for my W and OM it will be tough as always...

GH

Ya well, it didn't take long. I was walking past my W and gave her a little smile. She asked what I was smiling at. I said nothing. About 10 minutes later I walked back past her and I said "You asked what I was smiling at. I was noticing how amazing you look and crazy thoughts like how much I would like to kiss you. Crazy thoughts..." From when I said she looked amazing until the kiss comment, she had a BIG smile on her face. Almost embarrassed. It was a good thing. No tension at all. I was playful and I think even though I will likely not revisit it soon, it took a brick down from the wall. I complemented her, flirted, and 180'd all in one sentence. If only I ever did that 7 years ago...

GH

It was a really slow weekend. No news to speak of other than my W has been wearing a t-shirt and undies to bed the last 2 nights, something she has never done in our 9+ years of being together. No ML, but I did give her back and leg rubs until...sleep...sigh.
I am still confused by my W's apparent warming up to me. Our time together with the kids this weekend was nice. The trip to my parents was good.
I had no real backslide this weekend and going into "date night" Monday, I am ok. I am a little apprehensive about my feelings should she tell me she's going out tonight in light of NO apparent contact with OM (I'm sure there was something but she went far out of her way to hide it). I think I will make me want to confront her about V-day again since she made such a big deal out of that being their "night" to talk about the need for the A to end.
I will, of course, start right now resisting that urge and do my best "as if" for later.

So, I guess if not much news is good news, then it's all good for now. 1 1/2 weeks until Ireland...

GH

So as usual, Monday was my W's night to go out. She swore she was going to a movie alone, and it could be true.
Here is my question for some of you who may be reconciling, or maybe just want to chime in; if my W's actions seem to somewhat support the idea that she is beginning to come back, but she seems to have NO interest in verbally assuring me that she is, how do I give her the trust she seems to ask for?
To be specific, the said she was going to the movies "alone" and got a little miffed when I seemed to not believe her. She said I was "acting" like I always do when she goes out. Funny, this time, I really believe I was not. Usually, and you all know this, I am honest here about that. I was ok at the time she said that.
So we are at a point where my W seems to be asking me to believe her when she says certain things, and her actions most of the time back up what she says. Do I just believe her? Do I just write it off and try to not even consider the situation, just DBing my way through it?
I truly don't know what to think about my W right now. She seems to be doing everything short of actually saying she's ready to work on us. I think I am at a crossroads where my actions/words may play a part in where we go from here. Trust too soon and get burned, trust not at all and maybe still get burned.
Where do I go from here? I am going to continue to DB. I am going to continue to read and grow as a person. I never want to go back to being the man who participated in the downfall of this marriage. It's time to see if there is something new to build here.
Don't get me wrong. The OM is still around, this I know, but he may be on the way out. Let's hope...

GH

To be specific, the said she was going to the movies "alone" and got a little miffed when I seemed to not believe her. She said I was "acting" like I always do when she goes out. Funny, this time, I really believe I was not.

You just wrote that you "seemed to not believe her". That's what she took notice of. What did you do? There's your next 180 project for you in that answer.

So we are at a point where my W seems to be asking me to believe her when she says certain things, and her actions most of the time back up what she says. Do I just believe her? Do I just write it off and try to not even consider the situation, just DBing my way through it?

"most of the time" suggests to me that you still have situations where her actions don't match her words? Thus, trust is an iffy thing to hand over without a consistent firm basis, no? You don't have to trust her right now. Your granting of trust at this moment is not the issue. Acceptance is. Swap "acceptance" for "trust". Accept her at her word, let events play out, and evaluate them, keeping an eye open, and see if she continues giving you reason to build trust step by step.

Trust, for you, will never be of the blind kind again. And it's better that way.

Thanks NYS, you come back to me at the right time. I really appreciate that advice as always.
It is really hard to accept some of these things.
To explain a little more about what I mean by "most of the time" her actions back up her words, I mean there are some things I observe with her that don't necessarily fit with someone mending their marriage and dumping the OM...or maybe they do?
She sleeps in these t-shirts at night she claims are mine, but they are XL's...I wear medium. She listens to love songs on her iPod constantly, and I don't think she's thinking of me (she has me update her iPod and I see the play counts...snooping I guess, but it would be hard not to notice). She had a teddy bear in her arms last night, and it wasn't something I gave to her.
There are more things like that, but the picture I get is of someone clearly not over somebody at the least, and still seeing them and "in love" at the most.
She still has not claimed to have broken things off with him but just that she supposedly talked to him about it needing to end on Valentines day.
I know this is all about her, and I can't force the issue without unpredictable at best results. I still think before we embark on this trip it would be good to know where things stand.
Am I asking for too much? Or, is it that I am asking in the wrong way? Maybe I shouldn't require a conversation, just action? I think I am comfortable going to Ireland and just trying to be the best man I can be, having no expectations, and letting the romance of staying in little countryside B&B's do whatever magic it may do. Again, I THINK I am ok with doing that but I am still afraid that I will have expectations and react poorly if they don't come true.
No matter what, I am totally committed to this trip being fun. I just want to give myself the best chance to be stress-free....may not happen, eh?
Like I said, my compass is a little messed up right now. I know this could be a very perilous part of my journey in all this and I would hate to let fear or confusion deter me from the right thing to do...or not do.

GH

I thought I would post some of the positive things going on right now to balance some of my anxiety.

-My W seems much more animated around me. Our conversations are once again filled with laughter.
-I spend more time downstairs on purpose, and she seems to like that.
-There is more physical contact, albeit most of it initiated by me (which has always been the case in our R). She asks for back rubs and also likes me to rub her legs at night

-I am much more confident around her and make decisions quickly and without hesitation, a major 180 for me. I used to be so concerned about what SHE might want to do, I would basically try to guess it and say that instead of just making the choice I wanted to make.
-We are starting to banter lightly about $ex again. I am careful not to get sophomoric about it. She smiles a lot during these little exchanges.
-She seems to care what I think about the A or lack thereof, stopping just short of telling me it's over.
-This trip to Ireland that can't help but recharge us. We have not been on a trip alone in over 8 years!!!!!
-She is calling me much more during the day for no real reason. This is the time she used to be with him almost every day. Dunno if it's significant but for a woman who didn't do that much before, the calls are nice.
-The Valentines card she gave me where she said she still loves me. I know it's probably what she felt she had to do, but it still felt a little good. Kinda like the warmth a single match gives off in the Arctic.
-I am in great shape. I have a new wardrobe, and she's noticed.

That's all I can think of right now. There are more, and there is a list of negatives, but I am going to let those go for now. I still think the next bomb could be dropped at any moment. For now though, I am content to keep growing and developing my ability to generate my own happiness and peace. If the day comes where she tells me something devastating, maybe I will be in a better place to hear it.
When the day comes to build our new marriage, I am no doubt in a MUCH better place to do THAT.

GH

Funny, there's a multitude of things about my W's actions that speak so loudly. What used to pass for normal life for us has been cast aside. Some days its not so bad, but others it really starts to get to me. A few of the things I've noticed is that she requires a lot more sleep these days then she used to (granted, she works pretty hard, but she always has been motivated to do so much), the "love" music, the contstnt angst regarding her appearance (weight control, clothes, etc)...in short, its about her, not about the family unit. Funny, at times her guilt really shines through when it comes to these things.

With regard to your W, you're probably right. She's not exhibiting those signs that we all long to see, but that necessarily doesn't mean bad things. She is confused, she likely knows that her place is there with you, but this "addiction" is pulling at her. It has to die its own death and it seems as though she is letting go to some degree. It won't happen overnight...for some reason she feels connected to the OM and giving up that connection is never easy.

The way I see it, at least when viewing my sitch, is that in the end, they always must make a choice. I know for my W, it is emotionally impossible for her to carry on two lives for very long. I can see the affects of it already. In her head, she knows that her place is with me and the girls...she has said this on many occasions, but she needs time to work through the feelings she is having. It is likely that your W is going through the same thing.

The best thing you can do right now GH is to stay your course. You've been doing so well in all this and I'd hate for you to jump ship at the wrong time. Remember, you have chosen to stick by this for at least another couple of weeks and THEN re-evaluate where you are. Stick by that committment. Let the trip be what it is, don't expect the world, but have fun with it. Don't dwell on the negatives here. Patience.

By the way, I know NYS had suggested this some time ago, but I just recently got a copy of "The Little Book of Letting Go"....a very inspirational read. I would suggest that if you have the time, check it out.

Isn't there ever a time when we see this lingering, our W's give us many signs that they WANT to come back, that we need to jump in and pull them out?

That assumes that you have control over the WASs' actions. All you can do is give them, by your consistent actions, reasons to reconsider. In effect, that can have a "pull". I think it's cumulative, not any one single act is going to have a WAS jump back, though one may eventually hear their WAS say something like, "but it was when you did [whatever] that I realized I loved you"... yet, in fact, it was not that one act, but all that came before that set the groundwork.

but here we are weeks, months, years, living with something that maybe could have ended long ago should we have stood up to it and demanded that it end.

The problem is that the risk of making such an ultimatum outweighs the pro, especially if the ultimatum is made at the wrong time, such as when the WAS very much wants nothing more than not to be in the relationship.

If it takes months or years, the trade off is that the WAS did have time then to discover if their actions paid off with the grass being greener or not, and self-realizations can set in that lead the WAS to figure things out.

I think in the end, we hope for a stronger union then would be possible if we forced them back into an unhappy R with us, unchanged and still looking outward for happiness. Sound about right?

And that's another risk to ultimatums, should the spouse respond to the ultimatum and come back for any other reason than real love and determination to make it work.

Here's my take on DBing. I truly believe that forcing an end to the A is extremely counterproductive for a variety of reasons. Number one, and I know my W, forcing her to a decision will only lead to resentment. If I force her to stop, assuming of course that she does, it is likely that she will resent me. Also, we always long for the things we can't have. Sounds rather juvenille, but think about it. The "forbidden fruit" always tastes the best in our minds. If we do not allow them to come to their own decisions, the OP will always be the forbidden fruit, something that they will always look back upon and wonder whether it was worth the risk.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my W choose this life because SHE wants it...not because I forced her hand. If I were to do so, wouldn't I always question whether it was a choice made out of love or just committment?

Besides, DBing is good for us because, when followed to a "T", it allows us to step back and examine ourselves within the context of the R. This is essential because we all know that we cannot continue to pick up the M right where it left off. Things have to be different.

That's my two cents worth....for what its worth.

Back when Dave and I met and talked about things. I went over everything with my DB Coach. What he heard through our talk was that Dave was looking for me to end the A for him. He couldn't face being the bad guy...so it would be easier for him to put me in the sitch. The DB Coach saw it as perhaps an easy way to get him back home however, if things did not work out, Dave could always go back to ow and say well I tried it, didn't work out...told you it wouldn't. The coach said it was very important that the WAS come back of their own free will. Not because of an ultimatum, promises, etc. It does make sense. Of course, I followed the DB coach and when Dave and I last spoke, his words to me "You ruined everything that night." which we took to mean that I didn't follow through with his plan, once again...leaving him to be stuck where he is because he can't find any strength to get hiimself out of it. Not my job. He has to learn how to stand on his own two feet and make his own decisions. Additionally, and more importantly in our sitch, there would have been no changes coming from Dave. So it would have been a complete return to the same ole same ole, which is not acceptable to me.

Lisa, Rob, NYS,

I think you all make valid points. I am in one of those limbo times where things SEEM ripe for reconciliation but I know the OM is still lingering, if not fully involved in my W's life. It's these times I start to wonder if a change of tactic is in order.
Conventional wisdom says that DB got me here and I should (and do) trust it to get me to my eventual goal of building a better, more secure marriage with my W.
I think I am making decent progress towards that ultimate goal and some of the smaller goals have been accomplished and set aside.
I guess I am just uncomfortable with this thing that seems like stagnation. I have been so conditioned to taking action that this time where INACTION may be called for is difficult.
I have also found that true to the advice I have received and even GIVEN, now that things are returning back to slightly more normal in my R, my guard is dropping and I am probably too close to saying or doing things that may backfire (R talk and pursuing affection). I will back off on each right now.

One bit of journaling. I read all over this site that our WAS need time to miss us if they are to realize what they have in us. I don't think my W has missed me at all. I have never been that far away in all this. It scares me a bit. On the other hand, she has definitely noticed my changes. The entire house is a more calm, peaceful place since I truly recognized my role in all this and too decisive action to change.
For my W, the changes may be enough, or maybe they won't be. We'll see.

GH

OK Grasshopper. You might want to skip this post. This is beyond a 2x4, but I'm not feeling very patient today. I sincerely believe all of this AND that it is what you need to hear and do. But, (1) that is merely my opinion and (2) it is in my harsh style but (3) intended to help and support you.

Your W was starting to miss you when you let go a bit, stepped away from the R, and just started focusing on yourself and what YOU would do, not what she was doing. This was a very brief period of time around V-day.

She came toward you at that point. Unfortunately, you immediately closed the gap. You once again clearly entered and stayed in the R far more than she is.

For her to have the space she needs to gain clarity, you must step away from the R. You should not be in the R more than she is. You are dreaming of romantic interludes in Ireland. Your actions show her that she has you back in line and is giving you enough to keep you there. Sounds to me like a Just in Case scenario.

She knows what is going on must end, viz, her leading a torturous existence. But, she has not said what she thinks the solution is. The more she becomes content with becoming a WAW, for instance, the more at peace she will be at home and with you. I believe you mentioned she began sleeping in clothes. This is a HUGE denial of intimacy.

She feels no pain of losing you right now because she hasn't. Your presence remains strong, she is sure of it. It is probably even somewhat cloying and oppressive to her. She cannot get a true sense of her own feelings with you remaining in an R that she has left.

Back off. Quit dreaming. Live your own freaking life. If you are into the R far enough that it matters what she is doing with OM, then you are too far into the R. Why? Because you don't have a partner that is participating in an R in which clear monogamy, emotional and physical, is a requirement. You need to move yourself into that R and step out of the old R. I am in NO WAY encouraging you to have an A of any sort. But, you are in an R in which you are basically dating someone who is unwilling to commit AND unwilling to be honest with you about the other parts of her life. This will NOT change until she gains clarity. She will NOT gain clarity with you on top of her mooning over her.

Go joing a bridge club, a running club. Make new friends. Do it this week. Let go of the R that no longer exists. Get together with some DBers in Florida. Get excited doing research on what YOU will be doing in Ireland. Look at special things that you will put on the agenda. You are going as part of a travel group and you have a roommate.

Trust me, it is unattractive AND unempowering to deceive yourself by staying in an R that is not present. You can't tell what YOU want. She can't tell what SHE wants.

Also, quit feeling so ENTITLED to having your W back fully. Quit waiting for her to GET OVER her stupid fling and fall all over you. Whatever drove her to the affair is still there. Her pain in your R from both your actions severed that R. It is over. She can choose to reenter into a new husband-wife R with you OR NOT. It is her free choice. She is not abusing you by taking time to decide whether or not to do so.

You, though, are abusing yourself by putting yourself in the role of victim in an R that no longer exists waiting for what you think is rightfully yours to be returned.

STEP AWAY FROM THE R FURTHER THAN SHE HAS. IF YOU REAPPROACH HER, DO SO AT A FAR SLOWER RATE THAN SHE APPROACHES YOU. You BOTH need to be VERY CLEAR that any rebuilding of an R at this point is because SHE WANTS TO and does so freely.

If you don't think that will work for you, then find something else that does, but which does not involve mooning by yourself sitting squarely in an ex-R.

(Yeah, I know, OUCH!)

All best (really),
Oldtimer

P.S. Here's a carrot. If you can really step away from the old-R as much as she has and give her real freedom, it might not take her that long to get it -- the it being that she really does love you and wants to spend her life with you (hopefully, NO guarantees). How long did it take you to get it when you got the bomb???? It is not the facts around the bomb that lead to those feelings, it is the severance of the relationship -- feeling your life without her in it as your W. She has no similar experience to give her that kind of insight. This doesn't require cruelty, or cheating, or abandonment. It simply requires you also stepping out of the old R that she already left.

If she says anything, just tell her that you want to respect both of you by giving you each the space you need to figure out what you each want. That it is not healthy for you to stay in an old R that she has left. That any future H-W R between the two of you, or any other R (friendship, co-parents, strangers) that may replace it, will need to be built with the honesty and trust of two people who know that each has chosen to be in that R with the other. Until the two of you decide to be in the same relationship together, you are respecting both of you as people with emotions and feelings by taking some space to develop your own life.

No, OT, that was not harsh, or at least I didn't take it that way...here goes the breakdown...

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She came toward you at that point. Unfortunately, you immediately closed the gap. You once again clearly entered and stayed in the R far more than she is.

I suppose you are right. To clarify that, she has been constantly moving "towards" me for about 2 weeks now. I have not changed anything that I have been doing since starting DB.

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For her to have the space she needs to gain clarity, you must step away from the R. You should not be in the R more than she is. You are dreaming of romantic interludes in Ireland. Your actions show her that she has you back in line and is giving you enough to keep you there. Sounds to me like a Just in Case scenario.

Yes, the just in case scenario is one that I am afraid of. Am I dreaming of romantic interludes, you bet I am. Am I expecting them, hell no.
As for being in the R more than she is, I admit that I probably am. I don't know what more to do to pull back more. Sure, I am responding to her opening up to me, and I guess that's wrong, but it is a judgment call for me to make and I have made it. If it costs me my marriage, then so be it, but from the beginning I decided I never wanted to regret this process. If I did not explore where she is right now, I would regret that. I am prepared for the setback if it happens...or at least as much as can be. Your advice is well heard and I will seriously consider it.

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She knows what is going on must end, viz, her leading a torturous existence. But, she has not said what she thinks the solution is.

Actually, she has. She said she knows her affair must end. She said that from the beginning. She has always maintained that a divorce was NOT what SHE wanted but she was confused as to where to go from here. She has never insinuated or said she wanted a separation. Of course, minds change, but to this point she has been consistent that she wants our M to survive this.

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I believe you mentioned she began sleeping in clothes. This is a HUGE denial of intimacy.

Um, no, the complete opposite. She has always slept in long pants PJ's and recently she started sleeping in a t-shirt and panties. VERY unusual for her. She is very body conscious, especially when it comes to her legs. For her to not be wearing pants anytime is a big deal. This was one of the things that she did that signaled something may be changing with her.

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She feels no pain of losing you right now because she hasn't. Your presence remains strong, she is sure of it. It is probably even somewhat cloying and oppressive to her. She cannot get a true sense of her own feelings with you remaining in an R that she has left.

Ok, again, I agree. I have not left. I guess we have to agree to disagree here because I don't know how I "leave" a R that involves 2 small boys. Most of our interaction centers around them and anything else is gravy.
One thing I think it is important you know is that my communication with my W has never been that good, especially when it comes to heavy issues, or personal discussions. Lately, we have been able to talk with ease, about anything. This is a HUGE shift in our R, as friends or otherwise. She's noticed that too.
It's what I meant when I said that I wondered if the changes in our R and me would be enough for my W. There is SO much that is better about things now that should they continue like this, could turn the tide. You say I need to leave the R now, and distance myself. I personally think this would be a huge mistake. This is a time when we are connecting more than ever before and for me to pull away and start playing that game right now would not be productive. What do I have to lose by deepening my friendship with my W. Isn't that one of the main principals of DB?

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Back off. Quit dreaming. Live your own freaking life. If you are into the R far enough that it matters what she is doing with OM, then you are too far into the R. Why? Because you don't have a partner that is participating in an R in which clear monogamy, emotional and physical, is a requirement. You need to move yourself into that R and step out of the old R. I am in NO WAY encouraging you to have an A of any sort. But, you are in an R in which you are basically dating someone who is unwilling to commit AND unwilling to be honest with you about the other parts of her life. This will NOT change until she gains clarity. She will NOT gain clarity with you on top of her mooning over her.

Ok, and another way to say "GAL" and distance myself. See above. With my kids in the picture, and all the outside work I am already doing above and beyond the 40 hours I put in at the day job these days, I AM NOT going to be gone anymore. Sorry. If my W wants to leave me because I want to spend time with my kids, then she can go. I am doing the best I can considering the circumstances.

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Get excited doing research on what YOU will be doing in Ireland. Look at special things that you will put on the agenda. You are going as part of a travel group and you have a roommate.

Done. I have TONS of things I want to do, and since I will be driving... Also, I am not going as part of a group. I will admit to the W being not much more than a roommate. Sad but true.

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Trust me, it is unattractive AND unempowering to deceive yourself by staying in an R that is not present. You can't tell what YOU want. She can't tell what SHE wants.

I don't think my M exists in any way the same as before. My kids are the only physical reminders of it. I look at it more as, as you said, dating in a way. I have never really tried to woo my W. From day one I just laid expectations on her and for 8 years, she tried to live up to them. I never really tried to entice her into affection, I just sort of demanded it by my manipulation.
I realized that and now I am just trying to be a normal man who is attracted to a woman. NONE of my actions these days are "more of the same" from me.

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Also, quit feeling so ENTITLED to having your W back fully. Quit waiting for her to GET OVER her stupid fling and fall all over you. Whatever drove her to the affair is still there. Her pain in your R from both your actions severed that R. It is over. She can choose to reenter into a new husband-wife R with you OR NOT. It is her free choice. She is not abusing you by taking time to decide whether or not to do so.

First of all, my W will never "fall all over me". It's not in her nature. I don't suspect she is doing it with this other guy and I know from her past R's that she didn't do it with them either. If she did do that, it would be a huge 180, one that I think would be totally counter to her personality. She does not pursue. She is pursued.
As for the thing(s) that "caused" the A in the first place still being there, yes, maybe, and maybe not. That's up to her to decide. I know that right away, through counseling and introspection, I discovered some really ugly traits I had that my W even told me contributed in LARGE part to our downfall. I think even she would tell you that those are greatly diminished now. Sure, I have a LONG way to go, but I am not one of those who doesn't know why his W left and marriage is in terrible shape. My issues permeated every facet of my life, my kids, work, marriage, everything. It is clear when you observe things now that things are MUCH different. Whether that is something that contributes to a new marriage forming, I don't know.
As for being entitled to having my W back fully, I won't say I don't feel that way if I am being honest. Sorry. Slap taken and rolled with.

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You, though, are abusing yourself by putting yourself in the role of victim in an R that no longer exists waiting for what you think is rightfully yours to be returned.

Ok, I'll accept this. I do suppose I am waiting for what's "mine" to return. I need to change this idea. Point taken.

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STEP AWAY FROM THE R FURTHER THAN SHE HAS. IF YOU REAPPROACH HER, DO SO AT A FAR SLOWER RATE THAN SHE APPROACHES YOU. You BOTH need to be VERY CLEAR that any rebuilding of an R at this point is because SHE WANTS TO and does so freely.

If you don't think that will work for you, then find something else that does, but which does not involve mooning by yourself sitting squarely in an ex-R.

Again, because of the dramatically changed dynamic in my R, I don't consider it in any way the ex-R. This is something entirely new. The level of communication we have, and HER encouragement of that communication (she used to basically suggest that I go upstairs after the kids went to bed). She now enjoys my company (now that I am not a whiney b!tch, obsessing over everything and constantly trying to prove I am right).

Are we on the verge of a full fledged resurgence of romance? Who the hell knows. Are we working towards a stronger friendship, yes, this is for sure.
Do I still care about her being with the OM? You bet, and so long as I am married, I retain that right. You can shout me down, hang me, do whatever, but I will be damned if I stop CARING if she is with another man. Now, what I DO in reaction to it is another story altogether.

Thank you for your post. You challenge me. I am not sure I answered the challenge well in all cases, but I tried best I could.

GH

Oh, and BTW, I have a C session this afternoon so your post came at a great time OT, now I can go take an hour to heal from the pain and suffering...lol

GH....OT has once again given you some sound advice. Just an FYI regarding your post. Yes you have come a long way in such a short time, much quicker than some on here...however, keep in mind, a month, that does not equate to the history of the M. Your W will still look for consistent changes in you, the M and you should expect to see consistency in her also. Something I read in one of the many books was that it took months, years for the M to be in the current state and it can take just as long to get it back on track if it does work out. So while I know you are smarter than the average bear, just have patience, stick to your hard work, make sure the changes are for you and don't be disappointed by minor setbacks. Good luck with your C session today!!

Something I read in one of the many books was that it took months, years for the M to be in the current state and it can take just as long to get it back on track if it does work out.

My rule of thumb is that it takes about as half as long as the "bad relationship" in the eyes of the WAS's time was. Of course, that's far longer than any LBS's wishful time table.

Just as it takes time for flesh wounds to heal, it takes time for emotional wounds to heal.

Lisa,

Indeed, she has. I disagree with some of it, but so much of it rings true. Those who have followed my sitch know that the idea of physical distancing, or GAL in my case is really a touchy thing, and so much of what she was saying centered around that idea. I am truly GAL as much as a man can with 2 small kids and 60-70 hours of work outside the home this time of year including many Saturdays and nights.
I feel it's more important for me to show I can be there for my family right now than me getting a life. I HAVE a life, always have, I just want a family now.

Also, thank you for the compliments. I am just smart enough to get myself in trouble. Thanks to you and all the others I am doing ok.
I have made SO many changes for me I can't even remember them, and I certainly can't even begin to imaging how I existed the way I was before. I think I always wanted to change, or go back to my "real" self, but needed this BIG push to do it. Now I am a snowball...

GH

GH,

(1) If it is less clothes at bedtime, that is a HUGE indicator of increased trust and intimacy, probably even more than you think. I really don't think that she would do that unless she has decided firmly upon being with you.

(2) By all appearances, you started pursuing her again. You initiate the physical touch the majority of the time and the flirting. There is a fine line here. If you can add this dynamic BECAUSE you are detached without expectations and simply enjoy her company, that is probably fine. But, if you are doing it out of neediness for a response, that is different.

(3) How do you step away from the old-R? Quit believing that you need it. What you want is a new R that works for both of you. Good for you for recognizing that this isn't automatic even if she comes back. And, always remember that you and kids can have a wonderful life without her. It just isn't what you want. And, I think you have a good chance of getting your current wants met.

(4) No matter how much growth you have done, what started the A is there to some significant degree. First, you have not changed the patterns BETWEEN the two of you in a husband-wife relationship that contributed to the A. You can't do this until you are in a H-W R and they haven't magically disappeared. Second, when you talk about addiction, you aren't too far off. Though, I find the addiction talk a bit too dismissive of the unmet needs your W is/has experienced. It also fails to recognize the part of your W that needs to feel that she is a good person who wouldn't F everything up for some meaningless A. Even if that is what she did, it is hard, brutally hard to face up to that. Thus, the ongoing drama and difficulty letting go and making a clean break is self-protectiveness on her part, saving face if you will. Anyway, lol, the drug part is apt because the A is a mind-numbing emotional escape. It is running away from the factors that led to the A rather than growing beyond them. She is still coping in part by using the A, it's remains, or the drama to mask her pain rather than process and address it. The A can function as a feel good drug (heroin) or as a painful distraction (cutting), but both are forms of escape.

Anyway, it seems that the new way of living and interacting with others that you are developing FOR YOURSELF is certainly worth maintaining because of that. It is when you shift to living that way out of need that it gets dicey. BTW, the flirtatiousness, etc, that you are able to engage in now that doesn't hurt because it isn't needy is probably all about you, lol. That's a good thing. It is probably available to you as a way to interact because you feel so much better about yourself. And, see how much more fun and attractive that makes you because of the increased confidence?

Rambling here, I know. But look, if you can't see another way to live because of your kids, then you need to figure one out. You need to feel in your bones that your life with your children will be wonderful no matter what W does. That is the point at which you both really gain freedom to choose to be together.

Best,
Oldtimer

Ack, but wait, why isn't she wearing the new PJs you bought her?

Is the shift to avoid wearing your V-day present OR to reach out to you?

See, I can second guess along with the rest of you. Another reason not to worry about it until you are in an R in which you can discuss them.

Anyway, one more bit of advice which may sound contrary to what else I've said but really isn't.

(1) Quit needing your W. Say to yourself, I am not a victim, I am choosing my own path, I will have a wonderful life. Say it over and over until you believe it. You may need to do it multiple times a day as you feel yourself slip.

(2) When you feel that with certainty (which may come and go, lol), be very direct about what is going on with you. That is, DON'T WALK ON EGGSHELLS, DON'T PASSIVELY AGGRESSIVELY HINT AROUND. Try saying things like, "W, here's a new cute/sexy pajama set. I love you sleeping in a t-shirt and feeling the heat from your skin. I feel uncomfortable twinges of jealousy though because I don't recognize the t-shirt so I thought I'd do something about it. Cuz, I really want to keep enjoying the feel of your skin without those annoying thoughts going through my mind." OR "I feel so insecure and unsettled because I don't understand where we are in this R." OR "I'm going to have to distance myself from you while we are in a place in which our commitment to a monogomous (emotionally and physically) R is not clear." OR (W, you are driving me crazy lately with that smile you give me when I flirt with you. Come over here, take off those clothes, and bend over the couch."

Yes, I'm serious about talking to her in any of those ways when you can do so directly without neediness.

Best,
Oldtimer

I can completely understand where you are coming from with the GAL. When I worked in Special Events as well as in the Entertainment industry my idea of GAL was going home and chilling out. Constantly being around people, catering to them etc...actually wore me out. Plus we respectfully do know our roles as responsible parents. I think the base of the GAL principal is to not go crazy and have your own midlife crisis, but to remember that you are a person with your own needs. When we initially find ourselves in these sitches, we are beyond reason, some of us border line obsessive towards the WAS and the R. GAL is to help those step back and take the focus off the WAS and put it back on us. However, as we move forward and drop the rope I think we find ourselves in an peaceful state then we don't need all the GAL which I think is just an escape for us. When all this happened to me, I went from going out twice a week to three times a week. It did become an escape from me. But now I don't need it. The reward is not as great as it was initially. I haven't been out in almost 3wks. Haven't really thought about it until the past couple of days and tonight hmmm contemplating going out. Who knows. I'm more at peace with myself these days. I don't need it as much as I did. I enjoy my company, my time alone to think. I am probably also sick of all the drama that follows me when I do go out. LOL. I also think some people cannot handle being alone and need the constant escape which doesn't make them much different from what the WAS has done.

The key my friend is to find a healthy balance in ourselves. Finding our way in the world again...perhaps finding that way with the WAS and perhaps not. Some of us find that once we make those changes that are true to us, we no longer want the R that we had.

In your sitch, your GAL perhaps affected your M and it's good that you can see this. You realized this with your decision regarding attending the basketball game and W did take notice. Keep with your program of monitoring responses from her.

Regarding the incident of your W wearing different from normal sleepwear, I do find this huge. I grew up in Cali...most of my friends along with myself dressed to go to sleep...why because of earthquakes. LOL...funny I know but hey no one wants to get caught in the midst of one bare ass nakked. Depending on who I have been with in my life determined my sleeping apparel through the years. The more intimate I was in an R, the less I would wear. When you get settled into a ritual with someone (honeymoon being over) you tend to start not thinking about things like this and start dressing for sleep more comfortably, pjs, tshirts and sweats...etc. Just my thoughts.

S&S,

I agree that GAL is about not being needy, dependent, obsessed with the WAS. It is about being emotionally stable on your own and confident of your success in life w/ or w/o WAS. Going out may help, or it may not. Certainly, you can GAL while not going out partying or playing bridge, lol. It simply requires making plans, having goals, living a life not contingent on the WAS for happiness.

Best,
Oldtimer

SS & OT,

In the respect you describe GAL, I have been doing that since this started. I really like the way your put it. It's kinda like when NYS gave me his definition of detachment. Watershed moment. Thanks you two.

GH

Envision what a happy healthy life with you and your kids would be without W. Know that it can be a reality. It is not your first choice right now. But, it is a real possibility and an option. What is your choice right now is to aim for a different future, one that includes your W. But, until you know the alternative is real, that choice to aim for a future with W won't feel like the FREE choice that it really is.

Sound advice OT...that was something that my therapist and I discussed. She asked me what my biggest fear was and at the time it was that he was not going to come home and life as I had known it was over. She then asked me if I hadn't already faced my worst fear...and she was right. I had. I had also survived it. When I removed myself from it and dropped the rope was when I finally saw things, him, the R for what it was and that there was no way that I was going back there. I made the choice, my decision. I am good with it. It is something that I can live with.

I think half the reason it is so hard to acknowledge that there are possibilities beyond the current M is that we are afraid that if we admit this we will no longer want the current M. And, a lot of this fear is like I suggested GH's W has to do with leaving OM in the dust. What does it say about HER if she can do so? What does it say about US if we don't live and die by our M? But, this is operating from fear, not honesty with self or freedom.

Oldtimer

Thanx everyone that has posted on GH thread. It has been very insightful.
I am going to hi-jack for a moment.
My current sitch is as bad as I have seen it in that my W has said she wants a D! Right after she said it she said she was not sure.
One thing I have done is wear my wedding ring and she is not. I personally believe it may be time to take it off and give it to her and say I will put it on again as soon as you are ready to wear yours?
Any input?

What is the statement that you are trying to make here Tim? It almost appears as a tit for tat to me when first reading it. You do this, so I am doing that. Doesn't appear to be DB in nature, but that's just my opinion. If you feel compelled to take off the ring, that is your right, but handing it over to her? Why not just put it away if you must take it off and then see if she notices on her own. Chances are that she would. Women tend to notice these things. Trust me.

If she has asked for a D, then let her pursue it on her own without your assistance.

Take off the ring or not on the basis of what works for you. Do not try to use it as a tool to manipulate her.

Tim, you've got to stop paying any attention to what your W says. Ignore her words because she will change her mind a hundred times.

One thing I have done is wear my wedding ring and she is not. I personally believe it may be time to take it off and give it to her and say I will put it on again as soon as you are ready to wear yours?

She's not wearing hers, because that's where her head's at. If she's divorced minded, the wearing of your ring can look like you're hanging on. But the bottom line is, whether to wear your ring or not should be your choice, not hers.

The wearing of the ring is not an issue. It's a superficial issue, seemingly meaningful because of its symbolism. But wearing or not wearing a ring does not a relationship heal. Therefore, it's far more significant to place your focus on all the other issues that far outweigh the matter of wearing a ring, rather than turning that matter into an issue.

Hi guys,

just a quick hello before I force myself to study for the exam which I really should be doing right now.

I missed you all.
Later I'll catch up on your threads; hope you're doing okay.

As to me, I had a really great time in SF, it really was a life-changing experience;
however upon returning I found out from my mother in law that my H told her a week ago that he made the decision to D me, and went with the OW to a resort.

That said, I guess I'm in a serious need of support.

Hope your situations are turing to the better.

Dragon.

It looks like my thread is the meeting place tonight! Party at GH's!!!!
Carry on y'all. I will update later or tomorrow morning. Please, hijack my thread whenever you want. Mine is yours!!!

GH

I had a C session last night and it was rather uneventful. It was good, but I have not seen her in 2 weeks so most of the session was spent playing catch up, mostly me talking.
One thing that struck me, and I still don't really know why, is after going over Valentines day and some of the warming up that my W has been doing lately, the C asked me "So, is she seeing the OM less?"
It took me by surprise because most people would ask if she stopped seeing the OM. For some reason, it was a tremendous comfort to me that she asked the question that way, as if that was the appropriate step, not necessarily that she quit him altogether.
The other highlights were that she told me to go into the Ireland trip with no expectations BUT that I should BE romantic if the feeling hit me and see where it leads. She considers the trip a huge plus and an opportunity for me to show my W that I can let go and just have a good time with her, something I have really had a tough time doing in the past.
She also tried to get me to understand that where my W is right now is probably really confusing and hard. Also that the signs of him around the house like the music, teddy bear and t-shirts are possible signs that she's missing him and still clinging to him but not still with him. She told me to try to pay no attention to those things and keep working on myself.

-an aside- That little bear may be the death of me. She had it in bed last night and S5 was sick so she got up to get some medicine. I picked the bear up and smelled it. It has a definite smell of perfume or cologne. I asked her what it smelled like and she just said she doesn't know, whatever it smelled like when she got it from the storage box it was in. Just one more thing that COULD be true, but I seriously doubt. Even though I was *this* close to confronting her about the bear, music and shirts, I listened to you all and my C speaking in my head and just let it drop. I played it out in my head and realized that NOTHING good could come of me asking about those things. She would either lie or tell me things I would not want to hear (or tell the truth and I would not know the difference).

So, the C session ended on a positive. We talked about my W's change in night clothes (which is back to the usual PJ bottoms

) and how positive she thought that was. We also talked about my need to learn how to transition this friendship we are building into something with romance and sexuality. More reading...
All in all, a good day. No news from the home front. W and both kids are sick so not much going on.
Today is my W's DUI court date. She doesn't have to go but she's stressed about what will happen. Will update that later.

GH

GH�seems like the C agreed with all the thoughts we have given you the past couple of days. Save yourself the money next time and take us all for lunch in Vegas!!

Back to your C, I forgot is she Solution Based as suggested in DB/DR? Just wondering because I had both a regular C and then I worked with Chuck at DB. I found that I received more assistance in working with Chuck. I left our conversations with an actual purpose. I actually had goals to work on and would report back in 2wks as I noted things down in my journal. Do you also receive goals, things to say/do? If so, would love to hear what your C has suggested. Especially since she has suggested to be romantic on the trip if you feel it. In what ways did she suggest, because there is a thin line there at this time in your R?

Interesting that you noted that W was back to her pjs and simultaneously had the stuffed bear in bed with ya�ll. While you did handle it as a gentleman, just and fyi, you did mention the bear to her, you should have just let it go completely. Hmmm�maybe you should spray your cologne all over it and mark your territory�JUST KIDDING (that�s the sass in me coming out, forgive me).

Good luck with court today. Wish you both the best. This may be a difficult time for her today. Be prepared.

Lisa...I heard all of that, but when I got to the spraying my cologne on the bear, all thoughts left my head...that is a GREAT idea!
"Honey, I hope you don't mind. I thought your bear smelled a little musty after being put away for all those years so I sprayed it with my cologne since I know how much you like that scent..."

Damn that's good...I may have to take lunch early...

As for my C being solution based, no, she isn't but a lot of what she focuses on comes out that way. The biggest thing is she is covered by my insurance. I could never afford to do it otherwise. Unless Chuck is covered by my insurance, I will have to stick with my C and you all.

GH

Hmmm�have you researched if there is any Solution Based Therapist�s in your area that would be covered? It certainly couldn�t hurt to call DB up in Colorado and see if they have suggestions. I think there are even listings of where to find a SBT across the US in the DB/DR books. I think you are at the point in your sitch where you really could use some guidance in how to proceed.

Ah yes, the sense of smell, is very strong in affecting our memory banks. Of course I am NOT condoning anything you may do here with the bear�however, simply hugging the bear closely to your chest, while wearing your favorite fragrance should do the trick�okay, never mind�I never posted this�.nope. I�ll deny it tooth and nail. But seriously we women are wusses for that. Okay, some of us are. It�s like being back in high school and borrowing your BFs football jersey, just so you could be close to him. Now of course plan B would be to take the Bear and do a Fatal Attraction �Boiling of the Bear��sorry, my horoscope today is making me behave this way�.

Actually Tim suggested letting the boys at it with scissors and glue.
Hey, she said it was from her childhood, right? So if I "hug" the damned little thing with a fresh, heavy dose of my cologne, who cares, right?
It would be really funny to see her struggle with asking me about it...
Of course, she might get really pissed but again, she told me the truth, right? How was I to know she would care what the little demon smells like?

OK WAIT A MINUTE...I thought om gave her the bear...now if it came from her childhood and you destroy that little ole bear, this CaliGirl is gonna come and whip you into shape!! Tim back off with the scissors!!

Now you could of course still do the fragrance thing but you could say you were taking a nap with it and woke up and it was in your arms...

Ok, SHE says she found her childhood bear in the closet. Ok, um, the thing looks brand new, and the tag seems to have a date of 9/05 on it.
Sure, could it be true, yea but...
So, back to the scissors, glue and Hugo Boss...

GH