Not for the faint of heart - DivorceBusting.com

Hey, guys. So good to hear from all of you. Thanks for posting, and making me feel, well, normal.

.

Andrea
Your encouragement is priceless. I've always been really good at putting myself in others' shoes. I'm trying like he!! to do that with my H, to figure out if he has any remorse, guilt, anything for what he's done. I know how it is, though, to "fall" for somebody while I love somebody else. I did that a lot when I was younger. And I know my thoughts weren't with my partner -- really, at all -- during that time. I felt no remorse. I felt entitled to do what made me happy. But the funny thing is, I would break up with my boyfriend, have my little fling with the other guy, and as soon as it was over, go right back to my boyfriend. That's something that tends to happen. I try to remember what my boyfriend did that always beckoned me back to him. He cried and begged and wrote letters, all to no avail. Then, he simply backed away, carried forward with his life. And I guess at the moment I saw him "moving on" -- he even started dating someone else -- I moved right back in. Sound familiar?? Granted, I ended up losing him for good that way, and it's something I'll always regret. He was my first true love.

Anyway, enough reminiscing, but it is a good lesson to ponder. Hurts right now, that I can't do much to make H "jealous," or to even show him I'm "moving on." And ya know what? I don't need to do those things. The only reason I'm contemplating all that is to make him jealous. And it's not because I want him back. I mean, that would be great in some ideal world, but I don't think I'd want him once I got him. Not after all he's done. So right now, it's the "thrill of the chase." It's the challenge. Awful, ain't it?

But my point is: I don't know how the WASs felt at Christmas. There's that part of my brain that says, "Of course they were thinking about us." But the more rational side -- the one that understands that human beings are not what I've always wanted to believe they are, but instead can become dark monsters in no time flat -- says, "Heh. Yeah, right. He wasn't thinking of you. He was thinking of J. That's who has his heart and his mind right now."

So I dunno.

caverna

So good to hear from you again. And here's a sign for you: I have that same book! My friend/spiritual mentor was in Barnes & Noble not too long ago, and had a similar experience as you. In other words, she was "led" to that book. It's very powerful. She called me from the bookstore, totally freakin' out! Of course, she bought me a copy. And I love it.

I often share my signs with her. It's been butterflies for so long now. They pop up at the strangest moments, but right when I need them. In fact, after about a year of having butterflies "lead" me to different things -- yes, I know it sounds weird, but I seriously broke award-winning news stories with the help of the ol' butterfly -- I was sitting on my back patio in August, and I had a conversation with God that went kinda like this: "Okay, God, I think I might be preggo. That's not the best news, considering for the past year I have lived off of coffee, water, cigarettes and beer. Very little food. I kinda need to know if I'm preggo, but none of the tests are coming out positive. Why don't you send me one of your cute little fluttery butterflies to let me know, since it would be too early for a test to pick it up?"

No butterflies. The next day, I left work to go pick up a few more preggo tests. Got home, put the key in my back door, and as pretty as you please, a beautiful butterfly landed in the branch of a tree that stretches to my back door. It sat there long enough for me to get my camera and take several pictures, then it floated away.

The preggo test came out negative. That was a Monday.

On Wednesday, I went to the doctor for a blood test, was seated in a room wherein pictures on the wall featured -- you guessed it -- butterflies. I've come to know that that room is the only one with butterflies. As I'm waiting on the results of some tests (that ended up coming back negative, too), I was looking out of a huge gazing window in the doctor's office, over a vast field, and would you guess that two butterflies danced their way toward me -- one literally tapped the window I was looking out -- and they both floated away??!!

I didn't need a test anymore. It was official. I was preggo. Sure enough, my blood work results came back a day later. I was 3/4 of a week to 2 weeks along.

And those butterflies have given me such a sense of peace ever since. It was like God, the Universe, Fate, whatever, was telling me that his/her/its hand was on this sitch from the beginning. When my H left, I rememebered the butterflies, and I felt more at peace, because I know a Higher Power is at work here. I have no choice but to believe that.

bigAl
Hi! Sorry this post is so long. I smile everytime I hear from you.

. To be honest, I didn't write down all the signs, so I know I'm going to forget some here, but here are the ones I remember:

Last Monday, I was sitting in the parking lot at work, talking on my cell. That's not weird. At just that time, though, H pulls up in the parking lot in the next block, where the DMV is located. That's weird. He pulled his car in, facing my work. I left. Here's why it's strange: Think of the timing. It's a Monday morning. We're both supposed to be working. What is the probability that I would be outside, on my cell phone, at the same time he pulls up at a business in the next block? My job is way across town from his, BTW. Okay, so that's not a really significant one.

Well Monday, someone rang my cell. It's a weird number I would have never recognized if I didn't know how to search it. So I did. It was a pretzel company that's about 30 miles away from my home. It was obviously a wrong number. Strange. However, H's brother and his partner live in PA, and have started three or four franchises of that same company up north. So I automatically thought of them, even though there was no way one of them would be calling me.

Then yesterday (the day after that phone call), I get a gift certificate from H's bro and partner to that pretzel company, and another one to Barnes & Noble. It's the first contact they had made since H left.

Sounds to me like maybe I need to go eat a pretzel.

Isn't that weird?? I don't believe in "coincidences" anymore -- I believe there's something much more behind them than just being a coincidence (have you ever watched the movie "What the Bleep..?") -- but I don't know what it all means. Between those coupla things that have happened recently, and seeing my H packing or unloading his car at home every time I drive by -- which hasn't happened until recently -- then the dreams and everything else, it just seems like Life is keeping H right in my face. And I don't know why. Seems to me *he* is the one who needs visual reminders.

Why does Fate/God/the Universe seem destined to keep him at the forefront of my mind? I can assure you that my eyes are *always* open to "signs," or "coincidences," what have you. So it's not like I'm just starting to notice. I wish it were that simple.

My midwife told me this morning, even after hearing the story of H, not to "close any doors permanently." What, if anything, is Life trying to say?? Argh.

Cynics need not respond.

Noticed something interesting when I got home from my sister's a while ago. My H had been in the house. I had actually set some things up to be able to tell if he had come in. But he didn't make any secret about it. He took a coffee table that I wasn't using, and he took his big speakers from the living room. He also apparently took a water hose from outside. His van is gone, too.

Now, it hurts my heart ... which I guess is expected. But the good news is that apparently he's moving and needing to outfit a place (hopefully other than roomie's house). When I drove past his house a little while ago, neither of H's cars are there.

That's hopefully good news, because that means H might have moved somewhere else. And that's been one of my big hangups: having to live across the street from him.

And I'm actually kinda glad I don't know where he's at now. I'm not going to try to find out, either. I can speculate all I want that he moved in with OW. And let's face it: That's prolly the most logical explanation.

But the good part is that I can wonder about it. I don't have to know right now. And maybe I won't have to deal with what my biggest fear had become: That OW would be moving in with H in the house across the street.

Wonder why, though, it still hurts? It's not as bad as when he moved the first time, obviously, and I don't believe I was addicted to the drama of him living across the street. But it almost feels final now for some reason. His leaving, that is.

I have absolutely no idea where my H, the father of my unborn child, is.

That's soooo freakin' weird! But it feels much better than knowing he's across the street.

Oh boy. What a way to kick off the New Year!

p&db,

Sweetie, I have to tell you something. You are SO strong. I do not think I could be as strong as you are in your situation. Doing this pregnant, you deserve an award or something.

I hope your H. has moved off your street. That will relieve some of the stress and pressure you have been under. That's what you need.

And I loved your comment about how your life begins when you give birth. Good for you! Any names picked out? I'd love to hear them!

Have you seen the movie, "Le Divorce?"

Hi PD&B,

Wow.. what a way to kick off the new year is right. Hope said it all in her post. You are SO strong. I'm sorry your H has hurt your heart the way he has. I can't imagine going through all of this pregnant. Just try to concentrate on all the love that new little boy will bring into your life. I hope a sense of peace will settle in without you H right under your nose. It's had to be nerve wracking wondering what he's going to do and who his new roommate will be.

It is weird.. I know that feeling. I didnt know where S19's natural father was most of the time. Strange to think someone could just go on living life and not wonder about their child isnt it? Still today, I wonder if he ever thinks about his son he hasnt seen in 18 years and find it strange. But hey, we get all the loving rewards because we understand the value of our children. You're a good person.. you deserve to be treated with love and respect. Hold your head up GF and look forward to the new little man that's coming in the spring!

Sheila

Hey, HF and caverna! Thanks for checking in. This is actually one of the weakest days I've had in some time. Something just came over me a while ago, right after I wrote that post. I'll explain in a bit. caverna, I haven't watched that movie. What's it about? (But don't give away everything, just in case I can rent it or something.)

Okay, HF, this is somewhat in response to your comments, which I'm very grateful for, BTW:

My sister gave me a CD before I left her house today and told me to listen to a certain song. Here are the lyrics to it. It's called Stand Back Up, by a band called Sugarland. If I knew how to link to an mp3 or something, I would, but I'm purty computer illiterate:

Go ahead and take your best shot,
Let 'er rip, give it all you've got.
I'm laid out on the floor, but I've been here before.
I may stumble, I might fall.
I'm only human; aren't we all?
I might lose my way, but hear me when I say,
I will stand back up.
You'll know just the moment when I've have enough.
Sometimes I'm afraid, and I don't feel that tough,
But I'll stand back up.

I've been beaten up and bruised.
I've been kicked right off my shoes.
Been down on my knees,
More times than you'd believe.

When the darkness tries to get me,
There's a light that just won't let me,
It might take my pride, and my tears may fill my eyes,
But I'll stand back up.

I've weathered all these storms,
But I just turn them into wind, so I can fly.
What don't kill you makes you stronger.
When I take my last breath,
That's when I'll just give up.
So, go ahead to take your best shot,
Let 'er rip, give it all you've got,
You might win this round but you can't keep me down,
'Cause I'll stand back up.

Okay, so call me weak, but this song is playing a little while ago as I'm pulling up at an art sculpture in town that I designed and H built last year. I cried like a little baby. And I did the ultimate no-no. I dried my tears, cleared my throat and called H. Dammit. Why do we always *do* that???

Anyway, I told him I was sitting at the sculpture -- which he took me to just a couple weeks ago, on one of our "dates" -- and that I was thinking of him and as hard as I tried, I couldn't go a year without calling to wish him a Happy New Year.

He thanked me. He was actually quite nice, when he had anything to say at least. He told me about moving his stuff. I told him I had just been home and noticed the speakers were gone. He said he'd be back to clean out the garage later. He said, "I'm on (a highway toward OW's, where H and I had talked a couple weeks ago about moving together) right now. I've moved out. I'm on my own. I had to get out of (the town that *I* live in)."

I thought that was interesting, because it was *me* who told him a couple weeks ago that *I* had to move outta this town. And now *he* does? Right to the town that we talked about moving to together?? Ouch, ouch, ouch!!

Anyway, he said, "I had to get out of (my town)... for obvious reasons." I didn't probe. I told him I didn't blame him a bit, and that I was happy for him. Of course I was very hurt that he's *that* much closer to OW. But I didn't mention that I knew that. I didn't mention her at all ... that conversation.

H said, "When are you and L gonna send me a letter? I'm waiting for it! Bring it on!" I told him I didn't want to talk about it, and he said, "Okay." I said, "I was just calling you to wish you a Happy New Year."

We got cut off, so I called him back about 10 minutes later. And that's when I really broke. Gawd, I hate reading peoples' posts when they break down this way, so please don't think I'm some emotional freak. Okay, just kidding. Here's more:

He answered, and I asked if he was alone for a minute. He said yes. I told him that I hated how things had shaken down between the two of us since I caught him with OW. I assured him I wouldn't do anything psycho to try to win him back, but that my heart just wasn't quite ready to give up on "us." He said, "Oh, God," then later said, "I don't know why you wouldn't."

I told him that I missed the old H, and that I understood that maybe the old H was gone, but that it didn't mean we couldn't be cordial to one another. I told him it hurt that he was so angry and hateful, and that I don't hate him for leaving me for someone else. I told him it hurts, but it doesn't make me hate him. H responded, "Well, I don't know why it doesn't."

I told him that I had learned with ex-H that I could be friendly, regardless of who he's seeing. He said, "Well, I don't have any feelings for you, so maybe that's why I don't care about your feelings." I told him I understood why he says he can't care about my feelings right now -- and that might or might not change. However, I said, I don't understand how you can say you have no feelings for me when just a couple weeks ago we were both ready to work things out. He simply stated, "Yeah."

I told him that just because he apparently took his feelings of love for me and gave them to someone else, doesn't mean that he *can't* care for me at all. I said, "You can have feelings of love for OW, and still care about how I'm doing, or at least how your son is doing."

I also told him that his messages to me seemed kinda mixed, and that I wish he would break down the walls he's built around him so he could just be real with me. He responded, "I can't. I gotta go." He asked if I was still at the sculpture, and I told him I wasn't. He asked if the girls were with me, and I told him they're not.

I don't know why I called him. And I don't know what to do from here. Geez Louise. Are these my stinkin' pregnancy hormones kickin' in? Do I *really* want to try to salvage a R with this guy??? WTF am I thinking?? WTF am I doing?? I swear, my feelings change as often as I change my freakin' underwear (which, obviously, is very often!!

).

I read on someone's thread (maybe some NYs advice??) that it doesn't matter whether you give up or continue trying to save the M; the feelings will be there, regardless. Ugh. I *hate* that!! What a freakin' roller coaster!

I asked H, from an outsiders' view, if I was just intimidating or something -- if people just assumed that my feelings didn't get hurt because they know how strong I am. He said, "I don't know. I can't talk about this right now. I'm hungry."

He ended the conversation with: "I'll be seeing you around. I'll be by there to pick up some more of my stuff later."

Today's one of the days I feel like my heart's been ripped out and stomped on. I knew it was coming. I knew I couldn't be Superwoman much longer. I break like this every other month or so, and then I regret it. I just can't understand why my life has turned out this way, or what I can do to fix it. I know I don't *need* H. I know I don't *need* our R. But boy, do I miss it. And boy, do I miss (the old) him.

BTW, HF, yes. My son's name is Ollie. Thanks for asking!

And thanks to all of you for being there, especially on days like today.

Sheila, I just caught your post, and had to say thank you, from the bottom of my heart. I don't know where this road will lead me, but it's gotta be taking me somewhere.

At least I'll have Little Man to take care of me, right? He may actually restore some of my faith in the male species. I hope to raise him to never, ever think of doing this to someone. I just can't wait until he's here.

Again, thanks for stopping by, and for your words of encouragement.

Prego, don't feel bad for crashing. We all have moments like this. But, PLEASE, promise me that next time you feel like crashing in front of him you will come here to vent or call me (my e-mail is mari_parreiras@hotmail.com - send me your phone number and I will send mine).

You saw that crashing in front of him doesn't take you anywhere. He doesn't get more sensitive. This is actually too much for him to handle. Looking from the outside, your H is acting rather defensive. He knows he is being a jerk. He is running away. He doesn't want to show his feelings and deal with this heavy stuff.

My advice to you, whether you want him back or just the pleasure of him coming after you, please move on, or go dark (maybe it's the same thing?).

Le Divorce: a pregnant woman is left by her husband, who has OW. She has a piece of art that ends up becoming the center of the story. There is quite a few twists and turns, but prego in the movie ends up well and happy.

Hi Prego,
Sorry you had such a bad day. It's alright to crash and burn just make sure you STAND BACK UP.

That is my song! I bought the CD a while back and it is awesome. I like every song on it. Many are very appropriate to all our sitches here. Take some time and listen to the whole CD.

Tomorrow will be better.

"Tired of these jokers, deal me up Kings"

Spitfire

Hey PDB,
Don't worry about calling him, but please learn from his responses NOT TO DO IT AGAIN for a very long time. I kept making those little tries with my H, and finally realized all that happened when I did, was that I gave him yet another opportunity to stomp on my heart, just for fun. Sounds like your H is acting like a jerk on purpose too, with some of the quotes you listed. Next time just call your sister and cry about it if you have to.

I hope the other 364 days of 2006 are much better for you!

Hey, guys. Thanks so much. I've learned my lesson ... again.

. It's so funny. I talked myself out of it for 30 minutes before I did it. Literally. I told myself it was the wrong thing to do. That I would hang up and feel like sh!t. I even asked myself what I was going to say to him. And I knew this time would be no different. This is the way it shakes out every single time. But something told me to do it. And I did. Unfortunately. But ya know what? Maybe it's what I needed to do. Like I said, I do this about every other month, then I pick myself up, dust myself off, and I'm ready for another month-or-so.

I guess I won't beat myself up too much. I'm happy that I still don't know where he is living. I'm really feeling better already. And I acutally *did* call my sis and had a long cry. We just got off the phone, actually. Of course she didn't help much. No one knows what to say because this is such a freakish event.

Everyone keeps telling me that I've got him by the balls legally. It's hard for them to understand that he's got me emotionally. And right now, I'd rather have an emotional advantage than a legal one, any day.

Keep me straight, guys. I'm gonna need it.

And ka_zump, it's really good to hear from you again! Thought I'd lost you over in Separated!

As I read your post, I was eerily reminded of the things H said to me when we first seperated. Sounded very much the same. I don't know what that means but I have a hard time believing that someone who has been with you for that long has 0 feelings for you. He just may not see them right now. I guarantee he does. Only time will tell if he will pull his head out of his butt or shove it up a little further. I guess what I'm saying is don't believe what he is saying right now because even he doesn't know what he is saying.

I second Becca.

Hey, Becca! (and caverna!) Glad to hear from you again. I *know* you're right. These are the same things he said to me with the first bomb in September. I guess now it just seems more real, since he's gone ... and possibly living with OW.

You know what I think I realized? The reason for my sadness tonight isn't that I miss the drama of him living across the street -- God knows that's a blessing -- and it isn't really that this feels like the final nail in the coffin. It's that, for the first time since H left, I feel alone. I'm in this big house alone. Of course I have been since he left. But there was possibly a bit of security in knowing that my H was nearby. In case someone broke in. In case I needed something fixed. In case I go into labor. Granted, he wasn't always there. But I knew he would be sooner than later.

And now, I just feel alone. It all seems really *real* now -- that I'm gonna be preggo by myself, deliver this baby by myself, and raise my son by myself. Wow. That's a lot to digest, isn't it?

PDB,

I'd rather have an emotional advantage than a legal one, any day. Ain't it the truth?! You know what GF, at least we're feeling and it's genuine. I wish I could shed all those feelings too! Just when I think I have them wrapped up in logic and I'm feeling strong, they wiggle their way loose. I'm taking this as a good sign though.. that we can still love and feel even though we've been kicked around a bit.

So yeah, you caved a little today, and learned something, and maybe it helped you work through some of what you've been needing to get out and say. No need to beat yourself up for it. No one can remain a pillar of strength through all of this.. even us tough girls

Huggs!

Sheila

Hey P&DB,
Sorry to hear about your "Crash". I have had many of those. I guess when I would do it, I somehow thought maybe something that I would say would "click" and he would realize what an idiot he was being. And everytime, I would get kicked back down. But you know what, as much as I hated being kicked, I don't regret saying anything I have said to him, b/c at that time, I meant it. He is the one who will suffer without me and his kids. And everytime I would try and talk him back into reality is just another time he will have to remeber that he was stupid for not listening to me. Another thing is, everytime he kicked me down, I grew stronger b/c of it. Each time, I cried less, and it hurt less to hear "I have no feelings for you." I don't know if I will ever try again to give him some rope to change his mind, b/c the point I am now, is I'm done. I still want it to work, but there comes a point where a person has to have self respect.

There will be a day where your husband regrets what he has done. He may never tell you, but my guess is he will. He is obviously running away right now, but it is his loss. Just keep your head up, and don't feel bad or stupid for calling him. The way I see it is that it shows that you really love your H, and are willing to take a stand for your marriage, which is why you took the vows. Don't be ashamed of that. I always felt stupid about letting my guard down and calling, but I love him, and it's not crazy for people to want there marriage to work out.

Keep your head up, and rub that tummy!

Dontfret

PS My little girl is due in 5 weeks! I think she'll be here sooner though.

I'm baaack!

. Sheila and dontfret, thanks for your responses last night. Sheila, I'm so glad you're around; I need to be reminded from time to time that even strong folks have moments of weakness.

dontfret, I'm so anxious to hear about how your life changes in, oh, about 5 weeks!

I'm feeling tons better today. Relieved is a good word. And I think I've figured out a couple things. I know this is going to sound weird, but I believe I have an emotional cycle which lasts about a month. By the end of the month, I'm emotionally drained. Why do I pick up the phone to call H? It seems to be a weakness. But is it? I dunno, but I'm beginning to think that maybe the reason I call him -- especially when I know he's gonna be rude -- it because I'm kinda depending on him to keep me at the top of my game. By month's end, I'm at the bottom of an emotional barrel. When he's such as a$$ when I call him, it kinda picks me back up and puts me back on top. He reminds me why it is that I don't want to salvage a R with him.

It's an interesting concept. Hopefully I'll last more than a month this time. I really do think it'll help that we're not neighbors anymore.

I'm also not beating myself up for calling H because I don't think it was really the wrong thing to do. Granted, if I was trying to save my M, it wouldn't have been the best decision. But at this point, I'm trying to "show" him that he and I can be friends, even while OW is in the picture. And why do I feel that's important? Because I'll be having his son in about 4 months, and I'd really like for my son to have at least a part-time father. And I would like to be able to get along with that man.

In reality, I'm trying to protect my H even though I should have learned by now that he doesn't want my protection, and I don't owe it to him. But there's something inside of me, nagging me to show him that he and I can co-parent this child, and be civil to one another, regardless of the circumstances leading to our separation.

But I had a wise friend point out to me that I've made that clear to H. I don't have to keep making it clear. So I'll try not to. I'll just be anxious to see how my mind and heart responds to H's moving. I'm praying it's gonna help. I'd love nothing more than not to see or talk to my H -- and not be sad about it -- for four months. I would *love* to be skinny again and lookin' smokin' the next time he lays eyes on me. Wouldn't that be fun???

Maybe that should be my goal, huh?

Hey pregoo, excellent goal. Boost yourself up by starting topick out theoutfit that's gonna break his heart now,LOL. Glad to see you "up" again. On the next month's down time,I'll be turning 40 so we can commiserate together.

You got it, bigAl!

A little update. I had called H to let him know that I had plenty of extra towels, dishes, etc. in case he needed some initial help stocking up his new crib. I had to leave a voice mail, and that was about lunchtime.

He just called me back, which surprised me. He said, "Don't you remember our deal? You can have everything in the house. That was the agreement." He said he went out last night and bought all the "essentials." He laughed and said, "I got $18 pots at Wal-Mart. I'm good to go." I told him I had more than enough stuff here, if he thought of anything he needed. I also reminded him that the recent court order (the division of marital property) he filed on me would trump any arrangement that the two of us had made informally. He said he didn't want anything in the house, and stated (for the third time) that he had dropped that order. I told him that neither my L nor I had been notified that the action had been dropped, and we are planning to respond by Jan. 21 (60 days after the papers were served on me).

H wasn't happy. He said he called his L soon after I caught him with OW and told him he wanted to drop the order. H said, "I told him that I was gonna get f*cked now, so I don't need a lawyer anymore; I just want my money back." (He paid a purty hefty retainer fee to get divorced.) I told H that I didn't know what was going to happen, but that the sitch would come to a standstill if he dropped that order because I'm not initiating any legal action as long as I'm in this house. I told him that the only thing I would do is file for child support once the baby's born, and that I won't file for D because I don't want one, and I don't want that on my conscience.

He said, "I still want the D, and I still want the house situation resolved. How do I file for D?"

I swear, the boy is freakin' clueless. I told him, obviously, he'd have to have his L serve me with papers next September (one year after he left me). I told him that by then, I'd be ready to sign the D papers, and that I don't plan to fight him on it.

I said that I plan to stay put until the baby's born, and then I would be moving. Only then, I told him, would I serve him with papers re: spousal support. I reminded him that a lot could change from now 'til September. I'm not sure if I believe that myself.

It was a rather confusing conversation. Really weird to talk about those things. But at least it was civil. I finally got tired of giving him legal advice and asked if he was sure he didn't need anything more from the house. I told him I'd prolly be throwing away a lot of towels and things 'cause we have way too many. He said, "Well, if you're going to get rid of them, go 'head and put them in a box and put them in the garage. I can take them to use as rags."

Dude, send me a few of those towels, ours are getting pretty sparse. You could always remind him that he did sleep with you when....beginning of December and that is when he could file...that would really make him and OW happy!

Have you saved any nasty emails from H? Next month you could re-read those instead of getting freshly hurt by new nastiness. I just read some of H's worst today, from discussions over our 2003 taxes. What an a$$hole he was over about $700. It toughened me up pretty quickly after some weakness over the holidays!

Don't give him any decent towels if he is just going to use them as rags. If there are too many, give them to charity, or an animal rescue org. or even use them as rags yourself.

I've been checking in on you regularly, just haven't had anything good to say!

Hey, ka_zump. Don't worry about waiting for something nice to say before posting. After the sh!t H did, there's not much nice to say.

. Thanks for stopping by. Unfortunately, H doesn't use e-mail. It's all been face-to-face visits when he's been his meanest. It's weird how the things he says -- even when I vividly remember them -- don't "stick" like the written word. It's too bad I don't have a nasty e-mail I could revisit.

Journaling...
So I've been doin' a little thinking the last coupla days. It helps that I've been feeling really strong. So, I thought maybe I could rely on my own written word to pull me outta the gutter next month.

I've been reading a lot about our essential emotional needs, and how a spouse may stray when one or more of those needs are not met by his or her spouse. But the OP is eventually able to meet even fewer of those emotional needs than the LBS. The WAS typically realizes that sometime after leaving, then often goes back to the LBS. It's all a pretty predictable pattern, though at times I feel my sitch is so much different, and so much more unpredictable, than everyone else's. We probably all feel that way at times.

So what emotional need was I not meeting that OW did? Methinks that's an easy one. My H is very much my opposite in that he relies on external approval for self-validation. If I didn't immediately praise him for his work, he would practically beg for my opinion. He *knew* it was a good piece of work. But he needed me to fall all over myself resassuring him. However, I am a firm believer in self-validation through our own feelings of self-worth ... maybe even to a fault. My job is one that generally causes a lot of strong feelings -- sometimes "for" me, but most times "against" me. I can't care what people think as long as I'm doing what I know in my heart is the right thing to do. If I'm happy with what I'm doing, I don't need someone else to approve of it. Just to provide an example: I won a coupla state awards last year for my coverage of a controversial issue where I live, and I just now hung them on my wall at work ... and only because they've been collecting dust at my house, and I'm finally trying to clean up around here.

But here's how it possibly impacted my R with H: The OW is an interior designer. My H is a fabricator, and focuses a lot on designing and building custom furniture. She had contacted him to build something for her for a room she was designing. What was interesting to me was to recall today how, on OW's first and only visit to my house, I was on the computer while H was greeting her. I had made a portfolio for him (of his work) to show OW when she was here. But as soon as she stepped foot in our door, H starts taking her on a tour of our house, skipping *all* the wonderful pieces he's built and instead showing her everything *I* designed and decorated. "Look at these lamps. P&DB made these!" "Hey, look at these candles! She made that! Can you believe it??!!" "Oh, and look at this! P&DB painted it. Isn't that awesome??" Only then did he show her his work. And boy, did she "Ooooo" and "Ahhhh" over his masterpieces. Rightfully so, of course.

I should've known then that she might be a weakness to H. He's one of these people who would ask me, "What did such-and-such think about the table I made? What did s/he say? Did s/he like it?" It wasn't enough for me to say, "Honey, they thought it was fantastic. But of course they would. You're awesome."

The downside of that is that I was often H's "feet" when his head was in the clouds. As soon as he was contracted to build one spiral staircase, he was ready to quit his full-time job to start his business. And he would literally argue that he could and should do it. I would remind him that if he didn't get a job after the staircase, we'd be homeless. I tried and tried to reach a compromise with him, and finally did -- one where he could work part-time at his "real" job, and I would continue to work to make up for what we were missing as a result.

But he always *hated* that I ended up being right. He's admitted that to me time and time again. He'd say, "I'm not mad at you. You're right. I'm mad at myself." But now, in his anger, he says that with sarcasm. "Ol' P&DB ... always has to be right!!"

So back to my basic question: What emotional need is OW meeting that I didn't, or couldn't? My H's need to feel like the center of the Universe. He needs, and is receiving from her, external approval, assurances that he's the greatest welder and person alive, and he can do anything he puts his mind to. OW makes him feel special ... because (and this is my opinion) she feels inferior to him. I truly now believe that H always felt inferior to me. He felt he was standing in my shadow. I was the "well-known" one in our R. Many of his most well-known and well-liked jobs were spawned by my connections with people. I was always in the "spotlight," and he felt he was "riding my back." I was the strong one, the smart one, the rational one, and yes, I "wore the pants." OW doesn't even live here, so she's not that well-known. And she's obviously kinda weak and desperate for attention -- even if it's from a married man with a child on the way. Like H, she obviously looks outside herself for approval (and is likely getting that from my H).

As a side note, that's one thing that really hurts: My H and I fell in love for some of the same kind of reasons. We made a good team, and we admired one anothers' work. Our love was built out of admiration and respect.

I believe that one day he'll remember that. One day H will grow tired of his "June Cleaver fixation" -- which I would argue he already has, since he came back home to Momma for that brief while. One day, I think he'll realize that while OW might be really good at praising him and making him feel special through her admiration of him, that I too admired him ... but I also kept him grounded. And I did that because I loved him and wanted us to have a good, stable life together. Then again, he might always remember that as me being "nagging" and "controlling." (But I don't really care because I don't depend on his approval --

Just kiddin'.)

Maybe one day H will realize all his emotional needs that I *did* meet rather than focusing on the couple I didn't. He didn't leave me for lack of physical touch. He didn't leave me because I cramped his style or didn't leave breathing room in our R. He certainly didn't leave me because I held him back from pursuing what he likes to do ... though maybe I didn't "allow" him to pursue those things as hard as he wished he could.

Yes, I was demanding. Yes, I had very high expectations for him. Yes, he took care of a lot of my dirty work while I worked my a$$ off in my job that didn't do much to pay our bills. Yes, he sacrificed a lot to be my H and the father of my children. Yes, I prolly could've done a little more and expected a little less.

But while I may have done some things wrong, I did nothing that justifies him leaving me at all ... much less for OW. And this may sound really egotistical, but I also realized today that H is gonna have a very hard time finding someone who compliments him the way I did. Or at least in so many "essential" ways.

It's all true what people say about spouses leaving to test the grass on the other side. And my sitch is really no different. Maybe it is, after all, just as predictable as everyone else's. I'm not sure how long it'll take, but one day H's eyes will open to the fact that he left a very good thing when he left me and our M. I worked really hard at creating a good R with him. I cooked hot meals for him nearly every night. I made a comfortable and clean home for him. I would show affection to him in public, though he knows I despise public displays of affection. I would put my best foot forward to change my bad moods for him, assuring him that they weren't his fault. I made sure the kids were away at least one night a weekend so he and I could spend time together. I took beers to him in the garage (and that alone should be enough for a man, right??

) I followed him on his mountain biking trips, even though he admitted he'd never be a spectator at one 'cause they're so boring, and I turned them into a mutually rewarding event by taking my camera for pictures of H. I would kiss him goodbye and tell him to have fun at the concerts he and his buddies wanted to go to. And I would ML to him when he got home.

So what that I didn't dress up and meet him at the door everyday in plastic wrap?? So what that I didn't wear make-up everyday to look purty for him? And so what that I thought he should learn to trust his own instincts, and learn to validate himself, rather than depending on the opinions of other people??

Screw him! I was a good damn wife! I'm not the one who should be sitting at home crying right now. 'Cause you know what? I'll be a good wife again someday. And maybe this time to somebody who will appreciate what I have to offer.

Okay, somebody remind me of all this when I hit bottom again. Hey, the way I look at it: If I embrace the pain on the bad days, I can likewise embrace my strength on the good days. There'll be plenty more painful ones to come.

Here's to me!

'Cause you know what? I'll be a good wife again someday. And maybe this time to somebody who will appreciate what I have to offer.

If I embrace the pain on the bad days, I can likewise embrace my strength on the good days.

Nice work. And not just the part I quoted.

Very nice.

WOW, prego!!! What an insight!!!
It hit home here. My H used to feel inferior too. It was one of the main reasons when he first dropped the bomb: "I am tired of the feeling that someone has so much power over me!" And you know what? I did have. That was the whole problem. He would roll over and play dead if I asked him to and threatened to leave. Reading your stitch made a few things more clear to me.
H was also a sucker for compliments (which I rarely gave him). OW is also inferior to him.

Thank YOU for YOUR insights!!!

(I want to remind you that you can call me at any time if you are having one of those bad days. I also want to remind you that I have always admired your strength through this!)

Nice of you to stop by, BB.

Ahh, caverna. You're welcome. I didn't think all my rambling would strike a chord with anyone. I'm glad it made sense to you. Yep, you sound kinda like me. Our Hs, at one time, were kinda wrapped around our fingers. I never meant to take advantage of that. I believe I may have gotten to a point where I did, then something happened, and I opened my eyes to the reality that I could lose the guy I love. And he's a very good guy, despite what he's doing to me right now. I had a lot of power over him, and perhaps I could've been a little more gentle with it. It's weird that whenever that certain something happened -- when I realized I could lose my H -- was when I started relinquishing my "power." I started being more loving, more affectionate, blah, blah, blah. And two months later, he left me.

Makes you wonder.

Our Hs, at one time, were kinda wrapped around our fingers. I never meant to take advantage of that. I believe I may have gotten to a point where I did, then something happened, and I opened my eyes to the reality that I could lose the guy I love

I gotta jump in here PandDBing...this is exactly the same thing I did with my H. I always felt like I had the control in my M...that my H would NEVER leave me b/c he loved me too much. I took that for granted. I took advantage of him. And every time my H would say to me, "look, i am having a hard time now...you need to let me in, be more affectionate, etc." - that was when I would "step up to the plate" as my H likes to say. It was always when my back was up against the wall that i decided to change and become more loving and affectionate. Thing is, my changes never lasted...after a while, i would go back to how i had been. After 10 years of that, i guess my H doesn't believe it will last this time. And, i can't really blame him. He actually admitted that the year before i moved out, when he started to pull away from me, he was doing it purposely b/c he was finally getting a response from me. Interesting. Thing is, now that i really do feel capable of giving him all the things he needed, i don't think i will get the chance. I guess i can use what i have learned in my next R, if there is one. I'll tell you, this whole experience is enough to make me swear off love for the rest of my life. But, i know i'll be a sucker again. I just hope i don't make the same mistakes.

Sorry to have hijacked there...just couldn't miss commenting on the similarities...glad i'm not the only one who feels that way.

And, i have to say, that i really do admire your strength. I don't know how i would do this if i was pregnant...let alone if i had caught my H with his OW (well, i kind of have, just not with "his pants down"). Your last post was really inspiring. I don't even think anything i could say would really do it justice. Just know that people here respect you for your strength. I appreciate the feedback you have given me. Thank you.

I think we are finding a pattern here. Maybe our Hs are men "who love too much?" And than can't handle it?

Hey, Imdi and caverna. Interesting similarites, eh?

(caverna) Maybe our Hs are men "who love too much?" And than can't handle it?

I dunno. I wish I could figure out the problem. It almost seems in my sitch that when I started being more "domestic" -- in other words, when the tables were turned and *I* started being the one who went out of my way to show him I loved him -- that's when he stopped respecting me. Maybe not, though. I don't know enough about how he was feeling leading up to him leaving to really be able to say definitively. It could be just as possible that he had grown tired of my "hardcore" independence throughout the few years we were together. And he finally snapped.

Journaling again...
I've had another good, strong day today. I don't know if it's because I called him the other night, or because I don't know where he's living, or because the holidays are over, or just because some days are up and some are down. But I'm not gonna worry too much about it. I'm liking the "up" time a little too much to drag myself down now.

I had my first visit with a C today. It's been planned since before H and I had started reconciling, or whatever those 3 weeks were. It was interesting. Got the comment, even from the C, that I'm so used to hearing: "Wow. You're really together considering the circumstances. You're really strong." She actually felt better when she saw some tears. She smiled and said, "There's the emotion I was looking for."

I caught her up to speed on things that have gone down. She didn't have much time left to talk, and I only scratched the surface in the hour I was there. She said I definitely needed to come back so that I just had an "outlet" where I could lose my strength for a while.

I dunno. I'm gonna keep going, but what I really want to do is try to get into the minds of WASs. I already know what's in *my* mind. I already know what *I* have to do to move on with my life -- and find whatever peace and happiness I can muster in it. I want to know about the dynamics of Rs. But a C isn't really going to focus on an absent person. She wants to focus on me. Sigh. I'll see where it leads, I guess.

Interesting happening while I was there, though. I believe that God works in mysterious ways. A MF of mine -- who's married with 3 children -- stopped by my house at lunchtime to drop off a bunch of baby things that he and his W are finished using. This friend is *very* talkative. He doesn't meet a stranger. I think my H has met him once.

Anyway, H was apparently here in the driveway when MF stops by. MF calls me and says, "He was working on a car or something, and you know me. I struck up a conversation with him about the stuff I brought by. I was showing him the little jumpy chair thing and said, 'Hey man. You'll love this thing. Just stick Little Man in it and he'll jump away. You're gonna love it.'"

MF said my H said, "Hey, thanks. I really appreciate it."

SuperDad really appreciates it. Ain't that sweet? Why can't he just say, "Hey, P&DB will be raising our son by herself, and I'm sure she'll appreciate it"? Of course I'm being sarcastic. But isn't it interesting how he still seems to be pretending that we're a happy little family? That he really cares at all about this baby?

Okay, change focus ...

I just read some posts a little while ago about anger, and how it shows that feelings are actually still there when a WAS uses anger. Hmmm. That's a hard concept to buy. But it reminds me of what H's friend told me soon after H left: "Hatred is not the opposite of love; apathy is." And it also reminds me of Ellie saying, "Anger is guilt turned outward."

The hardcore me, who says everything's over, wants to believe (as I posted yesterday) that this stuff doesn't apply to my sitch. That my sitch is different.

But maybe everybody's right. And that makes the more compassionate me think that maybe I'm being too quick to decide what I want in -- or out of -- my life forever.

Maybe H will come around after all -- maybe even sooner than later -- and at the least he'll take an active role in the baby's life. Maybe. I can't bank on that, which is why I have to move on just like we're not getting back together. And that means continuing with the legal process, which worries me a little. I fear that by protecting myself, I'll be pushing H totally away. But then that other part of me knows that *he* did this to me. He put me in this sitch. I have no choice but to protect myself. I have two weeks before my L and I are required to submit an answer to H's November complaint. We're answering with a lawsuit. We'll also be sending OW a letter. I haven't waffled at all about wanting to fight, primarily because (as I already said), I wasn't really left with a choice. I have to make my decisions based on being alone, raising three kids by myself. Not protecting myself is not an option.

Judging by what you've read in my posts, do you guys think that my H is just the classic WAS, like everyone else's? That right now he's just in an anger stage that's gonna pass? That maybe deep down he really does feel guilty and thinks he screwed everything up?

I guess I don't see it because the solution seems so easy to me ... and apparently he hasn't even entertained it. But before anyone goes and says, "Well, *your* solution is one thing. But he doesn't want to be with you right now, so his solution might be something different," keep in mind that H *did* come back around for those few weeks. It wasn't until I caught him with OW that everything went back downhill.

I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that I should keep a door open for H. Not *the* door; just *a* door. I mean, I guess I have to because of the baby. But he's really hurt my feelings in the way he's handled the baby, too. In saying "f*ck that kid." Can you guys tell how badly that bothered me? Do you think he really meant it? Do you think he'll want to have anything to do with the baby once he's born? I know you guys can only speculate, but I'm just probing a little...

Anyway, I guess there's also that little spiteful part of me that would like to have a choice, too, by the end of this game. That's what drives me crazy right now. Whether my M will or will not work is not my choice. Whether my H comes home or not is not up to me. I would really just like to have a choice. But isn't that what everybody wants?

Okay, enough introspective rambling. Sheesh. One visit to the C and you'd think I'm in la-la land.

...and here's another question while you're at it. I know this has been addressed in other sitches a million times. But I think I need it addressed in mine (again, maybe just to prove to myself that mine is really no different than anyone else's):

My H insists -- as everyone else's does -- that he has no feelings for me. But if that's so, why does he have to be so hateful? It seems that he thinks that being mean will prove to me that he has no feelings left. Why can't we be friendly to one another? Why can't he take an interest in the baby? Why does he have to be angry at the baby, too?

It seems to me that if he has no feelings left, he wouldn't mind helping me out a little bit around the house, calling to see how I am, going to prenatal appointments with me, etc. What's he so afraid of?

Stop trying to figure it all out.
It will never happen.
I know one WAH who has returned. He says "I don't know, I was just out of control".

Just watch, take note of things, but don't try to figure out what H might mean by them, or why he did them. It's a sure way to drive yourself insane while H blissfully floats through la la land, not thinking about what's happening or why.

I'm not sure I'd be so eager to have the "f*ck that kid" guy in my child's life. As great with S as my H is, sometimes I wish he was out of the picture so I could avoid the hassles of scheduling, and to spare S some of his feelings. I guess it's good to try, though. I don't think you should push it (because of course that would mean you are controlling in his eyes). I think you should just see how much interest he has on his own.

P.S. when I said I had nothing good to say I didn't mean I didn't have anything nice to say, just that I didn't really have anything to contribute.

Because the opposite of LOVE is INDIFFERENCE is the correct answer. Something about love and hate only being slightly different.

I think kazump is right on one thing, you can't figure him out right now and you can't change how he thinks he feels. All you can do is wait and he either will or won't come to his senses.

Hey, Becca and ka_zump! I'm certainly not trying to "figure H out" to change him. I'm simply doing what I believe many others on the boards are doing: Speculating. Probing. Wondering. Sure, it drives us crazy, but we think about it anyway, right? I'm either thinking about it alone, or sharing my thoughts with folks on the boards to try to get real feedback on some real issues in my life.

Thanks for stopping by to add your .02, though.

I'm simply doing what I believe many others on the boards are doing: Speculating. Probing. Wondering.

Yes, however, speculating and assuming and mind reading and all that jazz is what people not on this board do too, and those of us here need to attempt to overcome those tendencies because they don't work and only serve up misery. Much like doing therapy. There are sites I've frequented where people are left to their own devices, and there are folks on there posting for *years* still stuck in ranting and resentment and vengeful thoughts and misery, encouraged to stay stuck by others still stuck themselves (misery loves company, I guess), all the while their WASs have long departed and moved on. I was on one of those boards and flooded with PMs almost every time I posted, indicating to me that people seriously need to know the ways out of their pain, but there was so much anger and antagonism on that board that I couldn't stay there, it wasn't helpful to me. Let's do better than them. Because we can.

Thanks, NYS. Hope you're doing well.

those of us here need to attempt to overcome those tendencies because they don't work and only serve up misery

Good. We have a problem. What's the solution? Step feeling? Stop thinking? Stop wondering? Or are you suggesting that when we're thinking and feeling, that we just keep that to ourselves because that's the healthy thing to do?

I guess everybody handles these sitches differently; I feel good that I'm at the place that I am only four months into my sitch -- and four months from delivering the child of the man who left me. And I didn't get here by not thinking. I don't think it hurts to feel and wonder -- and it shouldn't hurt to acknowledge when I am doing so.

Saw that you wrote this on someone else's thread. And it made sense to me. Seems this is what I'm trying to do:

My thinking, to put it in quasi-military terms, is that you have to see things from the "enemy's" viewpoint. You have to think like they do, isn't that right?

Good. We have a problem. What's the solution? Step feeling? Stop thinking? Stop wondering? Or are you suggesting that when we're thinking and feeling, that we just keep that to ourselves because that's the healthy thing to do?

To stop thinking via processes that deliver hurt. "Assumptions" and speculation", for instance, are based on what? They're guesses, conjecture, based on interpretation, which means they're filtered through a bias. Then dwelling on those assumptions creates further assumptions, but meanwhile delivering misery. Only to find out later that, sigh of relief, it wasn't what you thought in the first place.

Instead, change the way one is dealing with these thoughts to a more practical, beneficial, healthier mode. You'll find that feelings follow thoughts, and if the processes in the thinking involved are healthier, so will the feelings be too.

In fact, your statement reflects "all or nothing" thinking, which is another distortive reasoning process, though right now your perception of your statement is that of honestly asking a question, which you are, but which is processed through that type of reasoning nonetheless. I'm not being critical of you by writing this, I'm addressing the process used instead. Your statement gives the option to "not making assumptions or speculating" as leaving only "What then? Stop thinking completely", when it's not one or the other.

There's a book called "Feeling Good" that delves into this topic in detail which I'd recommend to anyone.

Hey, NYS. I guess that's making better sense. In other words -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- instead of "stop thinking," you're saying to "stop thinking the way you are"? Call me a literal interpreter, I guess. I don't mind being told I have a problem, but I'd also like to be given possible solutions. A book referral is a great way to do that, so thanks.

In other words -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- instead of "stop thinking," you're saying to "stop thinking the way you are"?

Yep, partly.

Nothing changes in reality, to let go of the way we innately tend to think makes some feel as if their denying the facts. That's not the case, we're just handling the facts in a more realistic sense.

I'll give another example to illustrate that. When LBSs think thoughts like, "I'm alone, and I dread I'll be alone the rest of my life!", that's a common enough thought, no? Yet, the reality is, one will probably NOT be alone the entire rest of their lives, unless they're a hermit or are extremely repugnant. The reality is also that these very same people have had others fall in love with them in their lives, and no doubt, they can attract people and have yet others fall in love with them. Why would that ability fall off the face of the earth all of a sudden? And to take that perception of being "alone" now and project it to be constant to the very end of our lives, is a long, long time for anything in this world to remain constant. The only constant in this world is that things change. And that type of thinking doesn't factor in unforeseen circumstances nor one's own involvement in making things happen in their life, instead it's a rather resigning type thought. What else is wrong with that thought? That it hinges on feeling alone because one certain person out of the world is no longer in a relationship with us? That didn't bother us before we met them. That no one who's been left behind in the history of mankind has ever found love again?

Yet that thinking has a powerful pull to it, because it involves the emotions. Fear, for example, is involved with that reasoning, and fear is a powerful motivator.

But what's happening instead is that nothing's changed in real life, but their perception has... because of the trauma they experienced bringing on a depression of sorts that brings with it that kind of negative reasoning.

Likewise, changing that reasoning to something more realistic helps release us from this depression and also makes life more workable for us because we then are dealing with things the way they really are, rather than filtered through sabotaging depressive distortions.

Call me a literal interpreter

OK. You're a "literal interpreter".

NY . . . you made me smile again . . . third time at least!

...well on a brighter note, I ate a salad for lunch today.

I ate a quarter pounder with nasty stale oil flavored fries and a root beer. You suck.

Wow, Sassy. Thanks for sharing! That actually makes me feel better. Soon after my H left, I went dark for about three weeks, then "ventured out" by asking him to change my oil. That was right before Thanksgiving. Then I called him one night and asked if we could take the gloves off and talk for a minute. He had just served court papers on me to get me to move outta the house. I had a nice, long validating conversation with him. That's when I told him that what he was doing was hurting me, that I knew he must be hurting too to be able to serve papers on me, and that I was sorry for the pain he was feeling -- or something along those lines. (That was per the advice of, like, one of the wisest DBers I know.) And it worked like a charm!! I just knew it wouldn't 'cause H was spewing venom at me from the time he left until I went dark. The whole "I hate you," "It makes me sick that I'm gonna be sharing a child with you," "You're the biggest f--kin' bitch I've ever met," etc. etc.

But when I called him and made that "validating" comment, he said, "My pain isn't your fault. You didn't do this to me," and "I don't see how you could ever want a relationship with me again after what I've done to you."

It was beautiful. And that's what led into our three-week session of reconciling last month. He would pop in and out, started coming back to our Sunday night "family nights" with the girls and me, changed my lightbulbs in the house, etc.

Then the OW bust.

. I still think that was classic.

Anyway, that's a long version of me telling you, Sassy, that I've been reading through your threads, and it sounds like you and I are a lot alike. I guess I'm not too surprised that you would have handled the initial bomb the same way I did. And we'll see how my drama plays out over the next few months ... then we'll compare so we can advise our new DBers whether to initially throw themselves at the feet of their WASs -- even if it's a forced thing -- or just give them space right from the jump.

Hey, we're all guinea pigs, right?? Thanks again for your post.

I'm a little late into your thread so I don't know if you are a reader or not...but since you seem to think we're on the same wavelength here...a suggestion of a book that did more for me than any other book I read. Your Best Life Now by Joel Osteen.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a bible thumper...no offense to any religious folks on board...I am a Cali girl, who's honestly been to Temple than she has been to Church...and I live in the bible belt, where religion and hypocrisy walk hand in hand...but I accidently turned on the tv one Sunday am and found Joel Osteen and was blown away...and have watched his program ever since...he is big on the difference between being a Victim and a Victor, survivor...etc...and I know that I am definitely a Survivor.

I've seen and been through more in my life than most on this board have, and somehow I have survived it all. Ah, the book I could/should write one day...ah the lives that would be destroyed (LOL!!). There are people in life that get it and others that just never will...that makes the difference between being a Victim and a Victor...I think everyone who comes here wants to be a victor, they just need to find their way and I think that is what this board and everyone here does...it's just a matter of where we all go from here.

And yes, the validation thing is huge...the day Wanker and I met and talked and I spent the day validating him til I could take it no more and then called him on it...he backed off like there was no tomorrow and I knew then and there...it wasn't all that he nor I thought it was...but it wasn't for me to help him out of the sitch he had gotten himself into...my rescuing days are over...my horse trainer is a wise man, and he once told me to Stop Trying to Save the World and worry about myself for once...and that's what I am finally attempting to do...that is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life...phew...

Hugs to you baby doll...you have so much courage that I cannot begin to tell you how much I admire and respect you. A big huge hug...

On Lactose Intolerance....well...in a lame attempt to eat right I was eating a bowl of shredded wheat for breakfast every morning and despite eating healthier, my clothes were tight and my tummy hurt. I thought well, maybe too much fiber, so I switched to a less fibrous cereal and still had it. I assumed it was just me being fat and my clothes too tight, but then I realized that my tummy was actually hurting.....I was just swollen and bloated, like when you have really bad gas, except I had no gas. Someone mentioned symptoms their lactose intolerant child had, in a completely irrelevant conversation and I started thinking hmm....sounds just like what i have. So I quit drinking milk/having cereal and eating yogurt and it went away completely. Just to test, a few weeks later I tried it again and I blew up like a balloon again.

SUcks, especially when you make cookies and want milk and cookies....or a new cereal that looks good.

Hey, Lisa! I know the feeling about having been through enough to write a book. I've been told I should write a book for about 8 years now, and the hits just keep on comin'! But for some reason, I have to wonder if my life would really be that interesting to people outside my circle of friends, ya know? Overcoming adversity: It would be a great topic, I guess, but a pretty common one. Oh well. I'll just stick to the boards for now.

I went to the library and checked out your book suggestion; I'd heard of it before, so it must mean I need to read it. The one caverna suggested isn't available at my library, so I'm thinking of ordering a few books from Amazon. I'm going to list the few I ran across that look interesting and had good reviews, in the hopes that some of you have read some of these and can say yay or nay to them. Here's the list (and hold tight after that, 'cause I have a question about something):

Infidelity: A Survivor's Guide (Don-David Lusterman)
After the Affair (Janis A. Spring)
Repairing Your M After His A (Marcella Weiner, Armand Dimele)
Surviving Infidelity (Rona Subotnik, Gloria Harris) *recommended by caverna
Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment (Emily Brown)
Affairs: A Guide to Working Through the Repurcussions of Infidelity (Emily Brown)

Okay, here's the $21 million question (though if you answer right, you don't get $21 million

): Would you guys consider my sitch as being infidelity? Here's why I ask: In everything I've read on the subject so far, the offending spouse generally has the A while M. Yeah, mine was obviously contemplating sleeping with OW while he was with me -- he had that 40-minute call to her a couple days before he left -- but it appears he actually left me to be with her. Is that really infidelity? And will any book that you guys know of actually address an A *after* the H has left? Is it *really* considered an A at all, since he left me first?

I guess another reason it doesn't feel like the "normal A" is that my H's blaming *me* for ruining our chance to reconcile because I was the "manipulative bitch" who walked in on him and OW, knowing what I was going to see.

Hmmm. I dunno. It seems to me that in most cases of infidelity, the offending partner feels guilty and wants to actually work on the M -- even if s/he also wants the OP. Mine wants out. Period. Or at least he does right now. So I'm just wondering if any book on infidelity is going to apply to my sitch.

And BTW, I'm also planning to get some books on healing, so please don't assume I'm "stuck" in trying to figure out the problem. This is just how I am. I like to get into the minds of all kinds of people, and that, in turn, seems to help me.

That being said, any feedback on whether the infidelity issue actually applies to my sitch at all would be greatly appreciated.

Now, Becca ... that *sucks*! But I'm glad you found out what the problem was. I seem to be having a swelling, bloating feeling going on right now in my stomach, too. Wonder what that is??!!

Don't eat anymore cereal. Capeesh??

Hi, I have just caught up with your story. And I want to share something....

My H was sleeping around while I was pregnant. And continued to do so after the baby came home. I was absolutely clueless stupid stupid stupid. He wasn't having an affair - just lots of sex with different women that was not me.

That baby just turned 10 a month ago, we had two more after that.

My sitch wasn't as bad - my H begged me to stay. He was so remorseful, blah blah blah. I was SHOCKED beyond belief. He was my Knight in shining armor. Duh Duh Duh.

Well - we did stay together and I do not regret it at all. My H had serious issues - that were not apparent to me. He was seriously immature in some ways and got his ego fed and fed and fed by his ability to get other women in bed. Whenever he felt inferior, or like he couldn't handle this grown up life (and expectations) he went for a roll in the hay. Like once every six months or so. (for like 3 years).

He got some counseling - then got some really good counseling - and he is a grown up now. He does not cheat anymore and I honestly believe he has not since the day I found out. (Baby was 8 months old). He honestly just could not handle it. He did not have the tools to deal with it all. When we got married we bought a house and were trying to be adults.

I know now that it had absolutely NOTHING to do with me. He didn't know how to make himself feel capable and important so he let stupid girls do it for him.

Here's my one warning though. I am hanging out at these boards because H told me recently "he doesn't have any more to give". etc etc etc. One big problem we have had - until only very recently - is that I never really forgave him. I said I did. I wanted to. I believed he no longer acted that way. But I just could not get over the fact that he didn't love me enough not to do that.

Again - it had absolutely nothing to do with me and how much he loved me. He had low self-esteem that he built up by cheating. (His parents were always pretty shitty to him - I think he's relied on girls to make him feel good since he was 12).

Anyway. I am really sorry that you are living through this. I don't know what will happen, but I wish you all the luck in the world. Just remember remember remember that this is NOT your fault. He needs to grow up.

em

Hmmm...just thinking of all the ways I can spend my 21million dollars...you can pay it out monthly...no complaints here.

Yes, dear, that is infidelity...if you are in a committed relationship and one person becomes involved in an A, whether EA/PA it's all the same...infidelity...whether or not he had phsycial contact with her before he left you or not is perhaps also a 21million dollar question...but that's neither here nor there...

I really only read one book on infidelity...being honest here...most of the books that I skimmed through were on healing after the fact...and nothing about what or how to handle the sitch when your WAS was gone. So I found DB/DR and then realized the whole GAL and that was when I turned the focus on me and decided to find me again and read all that I could about not necessarily healing, but more about spiritual growth and self-improvement. I think one of the best books I did come across was MakeUp Not BreakUp and then of course Mars and Venus. Both great R books that more than anything delve into the differences between men/women and distancers/pursuers...learned probably more in the MakeUp book..and then the Good Feeling book. Personally I think these 3 should be in every household in America but that's just me.

P&DB -

I've followed your sitch for a while now and I also have alot of admiration and respect for you. I, too, waver from day to day, thinking .....I am done with this man (and I use the term loosely); let's have some fun with his idiocy. Then I realize that using my H for amusement purposes will not result in what I ultimately want. (although I am not sure WHAT it is I want these days).

My H also says he is done. I think, at most, he was having an EA at the time he left, although the OW did not surface (to my knowldege, at least, til after he was gone about 2 months)....

It's sort of like, which came fist the chicken or the egg (the OW or the MLC)? Like you, I can't find too much written about OW's AFTER the H moves out.

I think both situations involve the H feeling he is entitled to his A. And I'm not sure it really makes a difference when the OW comes into the picture. I do, however, know that whether or not H is still married (by law), he considers himself to be "single".

Would you guys consider my sitch as being infidelity?

There's obviously infidelity in it. He was developing something outside the marriage.

PandDBing-
I am certainly no expert on this issue, especially since my H continues to deny his A. However, regardless of whether your H left you to be with her, he is still your H. In my mind, that is an A. That being said, do you think that what he is doing is an A? How does what he is doing make you feel? Infidelity, affairs, cheating: they are all just labels. What matters are the feelings this other R brings up in you.

My H is blaming us not reconciling on me too...b/c i betrayed him. I guess he does not see what he has been doing as a betrayal...whatever. Oh, wait, that's right...they're just friends...

Anyway, remember that you can't listen to anything they say right now. What spews from their mouths are things to make themselves feel better...about themselves and what they are doing. By making you the "manipulative b@#%&" he is justifying his actions, probably because he feels like s..t b/c he knows it is wrong.

I haven't read any of those books that you mentioned. I have picked up a few books on infidelity, but i never buy them b/c i don't feel like they address my sitch directly. I want to know why my H just doesn't admit it if he wants to D anyway. But, that's my issue. If you get any of those books and feel they are worthwhile, let me know. Thanks.

Just had to add this. If the shoe was on the other foot, would your H say you are having affair? My guess is yes.

good point, dontfret

Gee, guys. I feel like Queen of the Day! Thanks so much for your feedback. I'm gonna try to hit some highlights here:

Em
Very, very good to hear from you. Thanks so much for taking time to respond. I would like to take any cheating spouse and hang them by their freakin' toenails, but it's especially difficult to swallow when they're cheating with a preggo wife at home. I've gotten kinda used to it, unfortunately, but it still creeps me out everytime I think about it -- regardless of the sitch.

My H was sleeping around while I was pregnant. And continued to do so after the baby came home. I was absolutely clueless stupid stupid stupid.

Nope. Trusting. There's a big difference. I've been trained in the last few years to be a suspicious person. I'm very peceptive, too. I was sooo humilated when I found out that my H had apparently started at least an EA with OW. Totally blindsided. It was either luck or fate that led me to his house the day I discovered that he was sleeping with her. Had that not happened, I wouldn't know to this day. I would still have believed that my H left me because he thought the baby wasn't his, blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, all that to say that none of us were stupid to have faith in our marriage partner. That's how it's supposed to be. And on top of that, love is a funny thing. Maybe it blinds us to the truth sometimes.

He was seriously immature in some ways and got his ego fed and fed and fed by his ability to get other women in bed.

The big issue I have in dealing with my H is that he's not a womanizer. He doesn't even have that aura about him, and that was one of the reasons I chose him as my partner. You guys see how I'll research the heck outta something? Well, with my XH, it was sexual addiction. And I *knew* what to look out for in my next partner.

I "picked" someone who wasn't my "style" at all, who actually would give the shirt off his back to people, even though he really didn't like them. He isn't really that hot (at least not by my normal standards; I know that sounds shallow, but I don't mean it like it sounds). As I noted in an earlier post, my admiration and respect for him is what made me fall in love with him. He was the most loyal, devoted, trustworthy, accommodating person I had ever met in my life. Seriously. Overall, I trusted him more than I've ever trusted anyone. And I don't normally trust people. I would've put money on the fact that he would never cheat on me. And unfortunately, I would've lost.

Here's my one warning though. I am hanging out at these boards because H told me recently "he doesn't have any more to give". etc etc etc. One big problem we have had - until only very recently - is that I never really forgave him. I said I did. I wanted to. I believed he no longer acted that way. But I just could not get over the fact that he didn't love me enough not to do that.

Thank you for this. Point taken! I'm not sure what's in store for H and me, but I'll have to forgive him regardless. I've always been a pretty forgiving person, but I'm sure I'm not as intimately familiar with forgiveness as I will be by the end of this sitch.

Lisa
Great resources! Thanks for the recommendations. As soon as I'm done with the other 18 books I've checked out (

), I'll get those. Ya know, I didn't have time to read before H left me. And now I usually only do it after the girls have gone to bed, and I need to get sleepy. And I have an entire office of books on healing and spiritual matters (and the feminazi movement -- that one's for you, bigAl). I've got that stuff down pat, I think. I think. We'll see. It's time to put to practice what I've learned in all these years of personal growth. It's certainly a test. But I think I'll pass.

Dust
Thank you so very much for your kindness and for taking time to respond. Sounds like we have a few similarities.

I, too, waver from day to day, thinking .....I am done with this man .... let's have some fun with his idiocy. Then I realize that using my H for amusement purposes will not result in what I ultimately want (although I am not sure WHAT it is I want these days).

I'm not sure any of us know exactly what we want, and I think that's a good thing in the grand scheme of things. We've opened ourselves up, and the answers will come in time. And they'll all be our own answers -- not someone else's.

As for being amused by our H's idiocy, yes, you're right. A wise DBer (VJ) was telling me (reponding to an entirely different topic) that sometimes it's best to let things go. Sometimes, there are words on the tips of our tongues, and they want so badly to go flyin' out. But even if we choose to give in, our feelings will still be there afterward. And I would argue that then they're coupled with feelings of humiliation for letting our egos get the best of us -- and handing away even more of our own self-control and dignity.

So yeah, I've learned a lesson about engaging with H. It might seem "fun" at the time -- like I've given up, thrown caution to the wind and plan to go down with both barrels blazin' -- but VJ was right. I was still left with the very same sad, lonely, angry feelings. I would have felt better about myself had I just kept my flippin' mouth shut. (Though at the time my ego told me that if I did that, I would later risk feeling like a big fat doormat.)

I think both situations involve the H feeling he is entitled to his A. And I'm not sure it really makes a difference when the OW comes into the picture. I do, however, know that whether or not H is still married (by law), he considers himself to be "single".

Yep. My H told me that: "At least I did it after we weren't married anymore." Sheesh. Last I checked, we still were -- at least legally.

NYS
There's obviously infidelity in it. He was developing something outside the marriage.

Yep. The most simple and obvious point. Sometimes I miss those.

Imdi
That being said, do you think that what he is doing is an A? How does what he is doing make you feel?

Absolutely I feel it was an A. Perhaps I'm putting 2 and 2 together -- when I typically try not to attach reality to anything until I have supporting facts -- but my H had a 40-minute conversation with her two days before he left me. I must assume the obvious: She knew before I did that he was leaving me. That's an EA in my book. And he had a feeling -- whether or not they were having a PA at the time -- that she would be waiting in the wings for him to make the fallout from leaving his family a little easier. That's an A. So I guess I just answered my own question -- with the help, of course, of a few good DB friends.

Oh, wait, that's right...they're just friends...

...yeah, or if you catch 'em red-handed, they'll tell you it was "our goodbye." Puhlease.

Anyway, remember that you can't listen to anything they say right now. What spews from their mouths are things to make themselves feel better...about themselves and what they are doing. By making you the "manipulative b@#%&" he is justifying his actions, probably because he feels like s..t b/c he knows it is wrong.

I know you're right. If I were on the outside looking in, I would see that. It's just hard to swallow being so emotionally attached to the sitch. But I don't have to explain; I know you understand.

I want to know why my H just doesn't admit it if he wants to D anyway.

Sounds to me like he must not want to...Let him stew in his confusion about it. Serves him right.

If you get any of those books and feel they are worthwhile, let me know.

Shall do!

dontfret
If the shoe was on the other foot, would your H say you are having affair? My guess is yes.

And your guess would be right. It's funny you mention that, too. That thought has kept me sane during some other insane times. Like when H blasted me for pulling his cell phone records after I caught him with OW -- he said that was another factor in him deciding he didn't want to be with me. I told him (though it was of no use to do so) that he would have done at least that if he wanted to know if I was having an A. He didn't respond. He would've done a lot more than that, actually. I'd guarantee it.