The slow walk home

[frank_D]

My old thread: Old Thread

I'm starting a new thread because I want to re-frame my journey into becoming a slow walk home.

Had a long talk with a friend today who said to me that OM really really doesn't mean anything. He is saying that since W is living with me and is now being more friendly and open so we can be 'friends' that there is a part of her that is wondering if I'll try to get her to reconcile. In other words will I go back to being 'needy'. That same part is wondering if I have really changed and will the changes last forever. She feels empowered by her affair because to her it means she doesn't 'have to' stay with me, she has choices.

She is getting her love needs fulfilled by her EA. But she has to be a little lonely and I'm the only one here. My friend thinks that when she is being nice to me she is testing me to see if I'm going to be needy, or go into a mode where I need to be 'fixed', or if I am going to pull her towards me. OM has lots of problems but she doesn't see him as needy right now and she is so overwhelmed by the 'in love' drug that she doesn't think straight anyway.

So I am starting a new thread to focus on ME and US and the here and now. I still need input from everyone as to what is going well because It isn't always obvious to me.

What do you think? Is he right?

[InLikeFlynn]

Whats the old saying..."Possession is nine tenths etc". Right now and for the near future you have possession of her "space and time" and its up to you how you take advantage of that.

[frank_D]

Journaling mostly and looking for feedback

Tonite we set out all the stuff for the kids. W noticed I was down and I told her that I wasn't being needy but I was hurting due to our situation.

We ended up talking for about 1/2 hour and we cleared up some things I wasn't sure about. The points are:

- We will be friends, she is worried that I will be too hurt if/when she gets ito a relationship. She says OM is not a relationship yet but may or may not become one, she doesn't know. I would have thought by now she WOULD know.

- She feels guilty about OM and what she did with him. She didn't elaborate but it's basically the trip to see him and the affair. She said that she is dealing with the fact that some of her friends are angry with her because of her actions. I didn't know that, should have asked her who it was.

- She does not ever see us get back together. She feels we have done what we were supposed to do and that she got married too young and didn't know herself. This is all about her and her needs to find out who she really is. The OM is just an additional problem.

- She says I showed her how to love a man and that she knows I was mature in my love life to be able to love her deeply and without barriers but she wasn't in that place in her life and she is trying to learn how to do that now.

- She says she loves me unconditionally, as she does our children. She tried to make it sound like it wasn't special but clearly it is.

- She reaffirmed her commitment to go to therapy together to 'explore those crevasses' where we are storing the hurt from our relationship. She feels (as do I) that we can't have any new relationships unless we resolve a lot of open wounds from our marriage.

- She says she will stay living together for a year, unless one of us gets into a relationship and it becomes too hard for the other to deal with the living situation. As I said earlier, she is pursuing OM relationship but isn't sure if it will become one or not. Unlike me, he clearly does not represent 'stability'.

- We talked about our relationship, our new friendship. She says she is feeling comfortable hugging me and being touched by me, when we had dinner tonite our knees were touching under the table and she mentioned that as a positive event. She is still emotionally 'guarded' and will NOT let herself have any attraction to me at all. She is able to consider hugs, smiles and other touching as expressions of love in the context of our new 'friendship'. She believes it is not a problem for her to keep that distance between us but still have some of the closeness also.

- She says she is dealing with a lot of hurt and grief. She is grieving the end of the marriage and the hurt behind it.

I noticed an e-mail from OM tonite saying that he 'felt negative energy towards him coming from me'. Huh? When we got home and W went into her room and got online to chat with him I was hurt and angry at HER. I don't think much of him but I also don't get angry at HIM because she initiates contact. I generally see him as pathetic.

And please, how could he 'feel the energy' from me? He is not a grounded individual, or even particularly intuitive. He gets all his strength in that regards from HER. And she got her strength from ME.

He knew we were out together as a family tonite. I wonder if he is feeling insecure and has to paint a negative picture of me to her to feel better? I noticed that he only says negative things about me. He has no knowledge of me so how can he know me? He really only knows me through her telling him the negatives and the divorce.

He mentioned to her that he thought his 'ex girlfriend' who is living with him still is 'seeing someone'. He says that's good but the way he phrased it was 'I have been cheated on before and all the indications are there'. Say again? At his age how does he find women who cheat on him, can't he tell the difference? Even my wife has shocked everyone who knows her with her affair, and she feels GUILTY about it, but isn't about to stop because the feelings are so addictive. But he's found women who can cheat on him?

And you don't just ASK her? She's not your GF any more right? I ask my wife all the time about where her relationship with HIM is at. What a coward.

He has decided to move 'out west'. I'm sure that makes W feel like he is doing it for her but I simply cannot imagine what kind of man would do that? I am more inclined to think he needs to move somewhere that he has a woman so he won't be alone. At first I thought this was an issue for me but a lot can happen in the next year.

Clearly HE is not ME. I am much more secure in my self and not one to flit around the country, but to set down my foundations and deal with my life on my own terms.

So, overall what I got from her was a continued comittment to therapy, to discover the things that made our relationship fail. She doesn't ever see us together again, those days are gone forever in her mind. She sees a relationship with OM coming, but isn't sure about it really happening. My gut feeling is that while she believes she WANTS it to happen I think she sees that it SHOULDN'T happen. He is too messed up and she is still MARRIED. That's my gut talking and I am pretty intuitive. Her words say "I am done and moving on", her feelings say "I want to keep you around because I do love you".

While she implied that if she were in a relationship we may not be able to be friends, I think that she would NOT like it if I wasn't her friend.

I get the message that I need to simply be myself, let her do what she says she wants, and walk beside her as a friend would. I was originally afraid of OM and that whole situation but when I saw his email being negative about me it was clear to me that he is afraid OF ME. That's the first thing I think of wehn someone bad mouths me - they are afraid of me.

Even though she is focused on being 'in love' with him, he knows that she loves me in a very different and authentic way that he can't touch.

So, if what she says she wants is true then there is nothing to lose by working the therapy and the friendship.

When we decided to go to bed, I held out my arms and she came and shared a very warm and authentic hug with me and then went to her room.

This is weird. Even though she gave me the 'it's over and I am going into other relationships' speech I hurt, but I also have this feeling in my gut that as she drops her shield between us and if I can be the true friend she needs, then there will be another shift.

The only thing that is blocking me is my own fears.

[frank_D]

So, overall what I got from her was a continued comittment to therapy, to discover the things that made our relationship fail. She doesn't ever see us together again, those days are gone forever in her mind. She sees a relationship with OM coming, but isn't sure about it really happening. My gut feeling is that while she believes she WANTS it to happen I think she sees that it SHOULDN'T happen. He is too messed up and she is still MARRIED. That's my gut talking and I am pretty intuitive. Her words say "I am done and moving on", her feelings say "I want to keep you around because I do love you".

After thinking about this I'm feeling that the feelings she has are "I want to keep the feelings of love I have for you, and you have for me but I don't want to be romantically involved with you ever again".

When she talks she is not upset or confused. She has thought a lot of this out and thinks she knows what she wants. There is some confusion with her about OM and what to do with a relationship with him but she will do it if the situations allow it to happen.

Some more info. OM says he will move out west in less than a year, sooner if his business with his friends isn't successful. He says something about starting a massage business with her to help her to 'achieve her dream' of working with someone she loves.

She's been asking him questions lately. She says it's so she can "get to know the man I love". She asked him what it was he loved about his ex wives. This is interesting because this is a question our counselor said we should be able to answer when we are divorced, because we should remember why we honor the mother or father of our children and because we DID love them and in any new relationship we have that person deserves to understand how it is we love someone.

I was surprised to hear that he had more than one wife, and was now finishing up with a girlfriend he has just dumped after 3 years. In some ways that's a good thing because it shows another weakness he has in relationships.

She asked him what he envisioned their relationship to be like if he moves out here. I haven't seen his response but it probably doesn't matter. It seems clear he is a needy person and will want to get into a real relationship with her.

I don't know why it isn't obvious to her that underneath it all he is needy. Probably because the 'in love' feeling masks that and also they haven't really spent any 'real world' time together under stress. It's so far a perfect relationship, no problems. It will be interesting to see how his ex-wife stories affect her. I don't need to hear them but she has GOT to be wondering how it is he has multiple ex wives, and problems with his recent GF.

So far he is saying the right things. He knows what her dreams are and is hooking himself into them. She is 'in love' so it all looks good to her.

Maybe she is the woman he really needs and he is the guy for her because of what they could share in their careers and spiritual lives. Maybe I have outlived my time with her and we need to move on. I feel that way right now but I think mostly it's because of her pursuit of OM and his pursuit of her.

If I listen to her friends who met him in Hawaii, they say that spiritually he is dark energy and feeds off others positives. He is basically a negative person but hides it under his 'player' personality.

When this all began our counselor told me that we had an 80% chance of working it out UNLESS a person with dark or light energy came into the picture. i.e. someone bad for her or someone good for her would interfere with our connection. I only see him as dark, but he is working her so well that she is falling more and more into this emotionally.

It's interesting that one of th ebooks I have on affairs says this abut Emotional affairs:

The person who was driven to find “that loving feeling” usually experiences a high degree of guilt and conflict. He/she is often married to a “good” person and the desire to “find that loving feeling” seems selfish (which it is) and immature (which it is). Intuitively (and this person usually has a great deal of intuition and sensitivity) it is known at another level that he/she is not on the right path.

A lot of these things seem to be true. I believe she does have some conflict as to whether or not she is doing the right things. She did say she felt 'guilty' and that some of her friends do not approve of or support her actions. And she knows I am a good person in spite of the bad things we went through. She knows she is hurting me a lot too. Yet she continues to pursue it, because of the 'loving feelings' which as we know are like a drug. His neediness will continue to drive him to pull on her, which she will take as him being totally in love with her.

This is from an article that describes the type of person the WAS will choose to 'fall in love' with

An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone younger or decades older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

So much of this seems to be true for her. Up until the past week she was depressed because she couldn't talk to him all the time or see him or anything. I could see it in her and when I asked her about it she told me it was true. And D15 said she was disconnected from the family which fits the description too. And now given the things I have learned about him, he does seem to be someone with problems bigger than hers.

So I still see the 'textbook' type of affair it is. I am going to stop fighting it and be her supportive, nurturing friend.

[frank_D]

Well, this afternoon I had a talk with W about how we could continue to live together. I had written her a poem that talks about HER spiritual journey as I see it. She said that her friends didn't think I would ever understand her feelings and that in the poem I was right on. She cried a little when saying that.

I came up with a list of questions and boundaries I needed to talk to her about so I knew what to do or not do while we are in this house.

She said that she was comitted to staying in the same house with me and the kids for a year unless something came up (like a relationship) that made it impossible for us to be in the house together. Remember, she is on a journey to 'find herself' but also 'found OM" right in the beginning.

I asked her why she was willing to stay in this situation, besides for the sake of the kids. She said it was for the stability. I asked her if she meant that if she needs something she knows I am there, and she said yes.

I read MF's thread '1 year of dbing' and one of the things he talked about is 'helping' the EA along and facilitating communications. So I told her I wasn't going to give her any grief if she needs to call OM or get online to chat with him. I also said I am changing our calling plan so we can make long distance calls for free on our cell phones at 7pm PST instead of 9pm PST. That will help her because OM lives on the east coast. The theory is that if they can talk more, then OM is more likely to expose his needyness or control issues sooner. And since you can't stop it anyway this makes you look like a supportive friend.

I talked about things like 'getting hugs' and other interactions we have in the house and she said 'are you trying to get back together with me?' Oops. So I said 'You know I don't want a divorce but I'm not trying to change that, I just want the ground rules for living here and to tell you what needs I Have going forward.

Well, she says 'why can't we just be present in the moments as they come?' Just live day by day.

Well, can't argue with that. It pretty much covers all the bases. Just be here, let her do whatever she is going to do and just be here.

Today was tolerable but I have the reminder that she would rather be with someone else who is 3,000 miles away right now and it hurts. And I am tired of hurting.

I recall that some of the successful DB'ers are the ones who just detach from W and take care of themselves. I am so tired of hurting, and thinking about her ability to treat me like I don't matter very much, she's not mean, I'm just not loved like before. I still sometimes have to pinch myself because it is so hard to believe that 2 months ago I had a loving wife. Now I have a wife who has a boyfriend / lover and wants a divorce. I never would have expected this from her either, she was very loyal and had integrity. As her friends said to me 'we are seeing a part of her we never knew existed'.

My kids hurt too. They have no idea about the affair so they really don't see the true depth of the hurt I have to endure. And they shouldn't have to either.

I truly need to not care about her but it's so hard. She's dropped some of her walls and is now being very nice and friendly, almost acting like we are married. But I know that underneath she is an emotional time bomb. If I say or do anything that MIGHT look like I think we are a couple again she puts me back in my place. And of course I see her call or e-mail OM daily so that reminder is there.

I guess after two months, and the fact that on XMas day she had to call OM, I should be very clear on our relationship. It's over and we live with each other as a security blanket, for her and for me. If OM actually lived around here she'd be with him all the time so that's a blessing that he doesn't. But he claims he will be moving here in the next several months and she can't wait to see what develops.

While I would like it to fade out before he can move, it doesn't look like it is fading right now. She still pursues him via e-mail or phone and his lame responses are sappy enough to make her think he's the one for her. It's all timing, she wanted to feel 'in love' and he is a needy person who needed someone to latch onto. They were in the right place at the right time. Classic EA.

I MUST detach and withdraw from the daily supportive role I have been playing. It's just not good for me. I need to take care of myself. Maybe it won't matter to her since she only cares about OM right now but it might make her wake up and see that I may be gone from her emotionally.

Who knows.

This is weird but I pulled some cards from a deck she has while she was in Hawaii. They are like tarot cards. The message I got was 'letting go' followed by 'miraculous recovery' followed by 'happily ever after'. They are supposed to represent 2 month spans of time so I guess I am still in the 'letting go' step. To me, letting go means giving up any hope that we will reconcile right now, or in the near future. Instead I just need to take care of me, and let her go to do whatever she is going to do. Just leave me out of it from now on.

We still talk sometimes about stuff going on with her and I am supportive of her. But she is talking more to others than to me because she doesn't think its right to have that relationship with me any more. Yet, I am the one who is tuned in to her feelings and state of mind better than anybody, and she LIVES with me. Talk about backwards.

My Counselor has all these beliefs about OM (a scumbag loser) and her (a lost soul right now) and gives me encouragement all the time. I just don't want to hurt any more.

So, somehow I'm going to 'go dark' while living here. Not sure how yet, I guess I'll be unavailable as much as I can, but be 'emotionally present' whenever we are together.

I can't do this any more, and I shouldn't do this any more. I'm letting her go. She's my roommate. I pay the bills and support the family. In the past few days she has gotten used to talking to me and having me around. but for the next 4 days she'll be out of town with the kids anyway so I'll be on my own.

But when she's back I need to keep in my own space, Love unconditionaly and take care of me. Whatever will happen will happen. I give up trying and am going to be selfish and take care of me, and the kids. I'm worth it and she doesn't want to care.

[frank_D]

I quite drinking and it has brought me a lot of clarity. I reccomend it.

Yep, me too. Been over two months and I don['t miss it!

Wow, Frank, it sucks to be the grown up all the time, doesn't it? It's pretty sad that W took this event so personally--but that's the immaturity coming through. Is she in MLC? At any rate, you did well to take out your frustration at home and away from her.

And a suggestion: quit looking at cards, pictures, etc., that bring on misery and anger. Just put them away for a while.

Yes, it does suck being grown up. I never knew this person lived inside my wife. I always thought she was a kind and loving person with a huge heart. Now she is a bratty teenager in love and annoyed when she is not getting what she wants. Snide, Snotty, cold. Occasionally I see a glimpse of her real self but I think she reserves that for OM to see.

Like I said: EVERYONE I know can see he is a giant step DOWN from me, except her.

[spitfire23]

(((((((Frank)))))))

I'm so sorry. It does suck to be a grown up! I'm thinking about quitting. After all, my H is almost 50 and he's NEVER been one. If he can get away with it, why not me

Oh, yeah, now I remember why I won't do that......because I am a person of integrity and so are you!

Wondering why you didn't just call W yourself after speaking with your D? Wouldn't that have taken D our of the middle?
You could have left it with your D that you needed to speak with W first. I know it's hard when your kids are reaching out for help. Remember your D is really hurting right now.

Another dynamic that I see at work here is this. I don't have any daughters but my experience with friends is that teenage girls get really pissed off when their moms try to behave like teenagers. (Dressing young, flirting w the high schoolers that stop over, tuning in to the "kids" music, etc) I think you get my drift. This pisses off teenage girls even when there is no marital strife going on. I've never experienced this just observed from the outside. Don't know if it helps you at all.

Also, I agree with putting away the pictures, mementos, etc. You're torturing yourself and stirring up feelings you shouldn't be dealing with right now.

Hang in there!

Spitfire

[frank_D]

You stare at the face in the picture and something deep inside you gets tormented.

Yeah, And they look at pictures and nothing inside them gets tormented because they were 'suffering' during that time, yet oddly smiling too.

I guess we get 'roles' put upon us in our lives whether we like them or not. My role has been 'stability'. Even when I was depressed and drinking we had a stable life, home, financials.

And now, while my W pursues OM who we know is a loser, and we go to counseling where counselor's goal is to reawaken the love and caring in our marriage within W without making HER think that, my role is to be present and be 'stability'.

Right now though I don't want to talk to W any more. Like TJ, I am going to respond lovingly and enthusiastically but only when she approaches me. She can get all her needs fulfilled by OM via IM or Phone. Too bad he's so far away. But hey, when he moves closer that will prove his love for her right? Or... will it prove his needyness?

Maybe that's what she needs right now - someone who will do anything she asks and can be controlled. Someone who WANTS her to fix him and is EASY to fix.

I'll probably hurt like this for another month, then again when he finally flys to see her or she flys to see him for another weekend romp. But I'm not going to expose myself to her any more unless she invites me. Maybe then she'll get a clue that I really WILL be gone some day, if she cares anyway. It's so pathetic that she has told me I should 'be dating'. Unbelievable that she could be my wife 2 months ago and tell me to 'date' a week ago.

I keep coming back to the thought that someone who can do this to me, who had this personality living inside her, had to have been 'this way' for a long time. It just took the proper triggers to make it come out.

Why would I want to be with someone like that? Why be around her now? The hugs and friendlyness are just fake fronts to reduce her guilt for hurting me.

In any spare moments ALL she is thinking about is OM.

They are both weak, needy and emotionally dependent people who are getting their self worth from each other. She knows better. He doesn't. They certainly deserve each other. It's interesting that her Mom divorced her dad who was also a strong personality, and ended up with a man who is a much weaker personality. Now, her dad was a bit of a jerk at times and her mom is a flakey person so they really didn't belong together. But in our case I am not a jerk and I am a strong but not controlling person.

And, I am learning everything I need to know to be a better life partner with a woman. I think I am also going to be a pretty good catch too. I just need to get over W.

Will she be the one who catches me? Who knows. Doesn't seem likely right now.

[VINCES]

Frank,
I know what you mean...my sits is similar ("WAW is having affair")
It is so hard for me to say...is this the girl I married...could I have been this far off of reading her? I can't believe I was so far off and better yet that she isn't smart enough to see how she is doing incredibly hateful things to me. They asay that they are aliens...but this is really weird...it's like it's not my wife.

[frank_D]

I'm glad you have never moved out of the family home. The opportunity to let the WAS see what will be missed is definitely far greater if you are in the same house.

I don't understand this comment. How will she miss me if I am in the house?

[SvenTheRed]

Frank,

I just picked up on your full sitch. Very similar to mine - have a WAW (except that we are separated - I have an apartment not far from the family home). There is an OM that I flushed out at a counseling session back in Dec. W wants to stay friends - admits that I am her best friend but that we became roomates. She apologised the other day for "giving up" - perhaps a baby step but there is a lot of confusion on her part.

So I have been detaching as best I can. Being really friendly, etc. Acting as if. Going to pull some doosey 180's in the next month or so. I'm inspired by Hardheads posts that I know you had read and will start employing those strategies. In the end, my W I see wanted someone more in control of themselves. I wasn't that person. This OM might be (he's a cop if I understand right so probably all rough and tumble, blah, blah). I don't know for certain if it is just an EA or a PA at this point - working on NOT CARING. DB's for myself. One month in and I can already feel the difference in ME. WAW is seeing it to but fighting it a little. It is about patience.

I'll keep you posted on my sitch and certainly be watching yours. Hang in there.

E

[StrongNSassy]

Yeah, it just drives a wedge between my friends and I.

Then let it go...detach from your friends too. I had to. I took 2mos off from them...other than my best friend who is also a business partner with me. It was the best thing for me at the time. I went out and made new friends...and then slowly I let my old friends (our mutual friends) back into my life and I am still learning boundaries...that is an everday battle for me...

This is YOUR life, it is not a dress rehearsal...and when it's all said and done...you have to live with yourself and the decisions that you make.

[frank_D]

I have to do my best to relate all this while it's still semi fresh in my mind. Fortunatly I did call a friend and debrief myself.

This is the most bizarre thing I have been through in DB'ing.

Quick Background: WAW and I had tough past few years, much of it due to my depression and drinking to avoid feelings.

She went to a retreat in Hawaii and met her 'soulmate' in the last 24 hours of the retreat. He was there with his GF. Came home happy to be back but 24 hours later she's wanting a divorce. She proceeds to pursue OM long distance (we are in L.A. he is in Connecticut). He's responsive, dumps his GF and she keeps writing e-mails and they talk on the phone for 20 minutes every other day. She arranges to go see him after 6 weeks of this. Just before she goes he doesn't call her that week but e-mails her. She's hurt and decides he's not 'the one' and goes anyway to bring 'closure'. PE happens and they are now 'totally in love'. This was dec 1st. Classic EA obsession and other teenage behavior since then. Read this thread for other musings about OM. Now on to the events of tonite.

W is a massage therapist and has Reikei / Spiritual healer type beliefs.

Please, realize that this story is strange and I am so confused. Also realize that W is a very normal woman, good mom and good person. Past couple days I have been 'gray', avoiding contact whenever possible trying to 'let go'. Mostly for my sake. She has been angry the past 2 days. Unknown to me is that she thinks I AM ANGRY since I have made myself unavailable. This is typical of our old relationship - she mirrors my emotions and reacts to them.

ok, the story.

At dinner table W says 'Someone sent me a psychic attack yesterday'. Me: 'what does that mean?'. W: 'it means that I got a pain in my abdomen and I felt it was coming from someone. I pushed it away with light energy and the pain went away'.

Now, I am not sure what to say or think. I am sitting in disbelief but I want to know what the ^&*^* she is talking about! Um, this is getting weird and she is being serious.

Me: 'Who would do something like that to you, and would know how to do it?' W: 'OM's (ex) girlfriend knows Reiki and could do this. I know she hates me'. (she in in CT, we are in CA)

I am still trying to grasp this whole exchange. She is dead serious and the look on her face is one of hurt and anger.

In a split second I decide to push the limits and say: 'Well, I can see why she might be upset, you and OM really screwed both of us (GF and I)'. (Whew!) She says nothing. I walk away from her so she can digest it and get my jacket to go for a walk. She then starts a tirade about how I get to come and go as I please and she doesn't. I am calm and tell her that I didn't know she felt that way, I would stay home, she could go for a walk. She doesn't want to go right now. ok. I say that I will be more aware in the future and not assume I can come and go.. She says 'well maybe that's just the way my life is going to be'.' I run out of answers and put my jacket away then go upstairs to my room to get away and read. I feel like the 'jab' about OM and her screwing GF and I has totally wrecked my DB'ing for today, but one thing I had decided today was to stop ignoring the affair and acting like it's OK.

So, I push it some more. I ask her "Do you care how (GF) feels at all about what has happened to her?"

W: No, I don't care about her. I met her in Hawaii and she is holding a lot of anger in her life. He was going to dump her anyway.

Me: Ok, do you care how your affair has hurt me?

W: Of course I do.

Me: Why?

W: because I have a relationship with you.

(note: Old W would have agonized about hurting a fly. Now she has helped to hurt this woman and could care less.)

I leave the room because I am disgusted.

5 minutes later she comes upstairs to my room and says: "I'm sorry I yelled at you" Me: "when did you yell?" W: "about the going out stuff". Me: "ok, i'm not upset about that".

W: "Well you seem angry with me since I came back from grandmas house yesterday"
(This is when I began my detachment / letting go)
Me: "I'm not mad I'm just hurting too much right now. I can only take so much of your Adulterous Affair and the other emotional stuff with the divorce and I have to retreat and rebuild my strength". I just feel disgusted, hurt, lonely and angry right now. I did tell her it goes against my morals.

From this point I am paraphrasing because the conversation got heated and I don't remember the exact words...

W: "You can't blame the divorce on my relationship! We were going to divorce at some point, it was just a matter of time. And I told you I wanted a divorce before I started any relationship with OM"

(note: while in Hawaii she called every day to say she missed me. When I picked her up at the airport she smiled a loving smile and hugged me. Yes, we had problems and I know she wanted life to change BUT for her to say that OM was NOT the reason she asked for D at this time is B.S. because she did NOT ask for it UNTIL she saw he was interested in her pursuing him.)

Me: "I don't agree with that. As soon as you came home you pursued him, and I know you had that INTENTION before you came home (she told me about the events in Hawaii). So don't try to tell me it all happened AFTER you said DIVORCE to me". You were already on the path.

W: Well you know it was bound to happen anyway!

Me: What? That you would eventually find someone to have an affair with and that would be the end of our marriage?

W: No, that we would get divorced! The OM has nothing to do with it! Do you want me to stop talking to him and proceed with the divorce??

Me: That's not going to happen. You won't drop him, so don't tell me you will.

W: I will, and it won't make a difference, we'll still get divorced.

Me: Nope, you're lying to me. You will not drop him. you don't want to.
(Note: later she says she told me this to goad me, and apoligizes)

W: Well I like the way you blame everything on ME and you have no responsibility in this!

Me: Every day for the past two months I have punished myself for being weak, and hurting you and our relationship. If I could go back in time and change it I would. If I could pull the moon from the sky to make a difference I would. I hurt more than you imagine because it was my weaknesses than has cost me this. I loved you and I've lost everything. I have beat myself up better than anyone else could possibly do. And I am paying my penance, and I will for the rest of my life.

She starts to cry.

W: You have no idea how much it hurt me to see you be the way you were.

Me: Yes, I do. I am paying for it every day.

W: OM is NOT the cause of D, it was going to happen anyway.

Me: Why do you say that?

W: I don't know, maybe so I can convince myself...

Me: I've stayed out of your way for the past 2 months, I just can't stand here and take it forever. I need some time to transition myself to a more neutral emotional state while you pursue your affair. I know you're not going to end it like you are trying to tell me. You want it too bad.

W: Well, I really don't know what I'm going to do.

Me: What do you mean?

W: I just don't know what will happen.

Me: Well what do you want from me?

W: I just want to get through this, the divorce process. I want us to be friends, I want to go on with my life. I want to find someone who can work with my on my massage business and who has the same ideas I have about how to do it (Note: OM knows she wants to do this and has said that this is what he wants to do too! Surprised?)

She wants me to stay living here for the kids sake, to keep a stable environment. I ask her if she wants the stable environment for herself too. She says it's not important to her. She does say she still wants to go to couples counseling to work on 'healing' the hurt between us. (This is important because our counselor is trying to bring her back to reality).

We then discuss the hugs she has given me lately. I told her I felt that she was doing it because she thought I was needy, and that I am NOT. She said she thought I was. I also mentioned that I wasn't feeling any real emotion when she did. She then blames that on me because I'm "blocking" her. It's all me. Bull, I can tell when someone is not emotionally present and I tell her so but she won't hear it.

I end up explaining that I'm not mad at her, I just need some space to recover from the past few weeks (and to detach from her). She seems happier then since she doesn't think I am mad at her any more.

I tell her I don NOT want to have a relationship with her again. She says 'we have a relationship, we're friends'.

She gets up and gets her jacket and goes for a walk. She is only gone 10 minutes. Probably because OM is not available when she called him on her cell. I offer to watch a movie with her and she decides that would be nice. We watch the movie and it's pleasant, then we each go to our rooms to go to bed. She is in a much better mood.

But, she said earlier that she wasn't sleeping much lately. Hopefully she has something to think about tonite. something like 'did I really use OM as a way out of marriage?' She HAS to know she lied to herself. If she was going to divorce me she would NOT have been so pleasant and loving at the airport. She was unsure and he tipped the scales AFTER she was home and WHILE she was in a very emotional state. And, their relationship is very very weird. He's claiming he will move to CA in the next year now. Who does something like that?

I am not sure if this was a DB boo boo or what but I feel like I accomplished something by hitting her up on the Adultery so she couldn't deny it is wrong.

Plus, now that we've established that I am not angry with her, I can 'let go' and she won't think I'm angry. That's good because I don't need the negative feelings. I need her to miss interacting with me.

So, what just happend here? I have some ideas but I really need outside opinions! There's more but this is the main points. W is still intent on D and is still into OM I'm sure.

[frank_D]

Keyster42:
Detaching lovingly is the key to either happiness together or happiness apart. Either way we will be happy.

Yeah, THIS is what I need to hear. I slept maybe 3 hours last nite because I could tell I hit a nerve with her by challenging her perception of the 'affair' and the 'divorce'. I wish I had been thinking more because I COULD have pointed out to her that she came home in a loving mood and didn't say 'divorce' UNTIL she connected with OM on the phone and started to pursue him. If she thinks that the affair had nothing to do with asking for a divorce she is fooling herself. And for crying out loud we LIVE in the same house and we interact 'as if' all the time unless I take away my half of the energy. Then she get's pissy.

spitfire23:
I would guess that she will become more confused and maybe in not so great a mood as you continue to detach.

I hope that's true. It will show me that she really does love me and doesn't want to lose me completely. That means there is an open door still.

As far as the 'voodoo doll', I know it's pretty weird that she would even THINK up something like that. In a different post I mentioned that OM sent her an e-mail Xmas eve while the family was out looking at xmas decorations in which he said 'I think Frank is sending me a lot of negative feelings because I am being overwhelmed by them'. W answered 'no, we were all together having fun, but I could FEEL your presence.'

Now, in my knowledge about what we say and do, when someone says something like what he said, it is a reflection on what HE feels about HIMSELF. i.e. he was feeling that I am threatening to him, and that he is doing something 'bad', thus the 'negative vibes'.

When W said 'I am being attacked psychically by GF' she is feeling that what she has done wasn't so great a thing and hurt GF so W feels threatened by that thought and feeling.

The biggest thing I HOPE came out of our conversation is that she is now thinking that MAYBE she DID give up on the marriage because of OM. I think that if she didn't meet him she would still have stayed, and with the changes I was making then we might have had a chance to get it right.

Who knows.

Regardless, LET GO, LET GO, LET GO!

[AmyC]

Frank_D ~

I am so proud of you!! When you first came on this board you were defeated and seemed to have given up on LIFE. I used to be so worried about you just a few weeks ago. Now you are like a completely different person.

You are handling this very well. I love the way you are challenging your wife's candycoated views of the marriage, divorce and the affair. Keep putting it out there like it IS. Maybe sooner or later she'll open her eyes.

As for the "psychic attack", you know I don't by into any of that stuff, but some people do and to them the power of suggestion is real. Those that dabble in that stuff are definitely under attack but it's not from a jealous woman. Personally, I think she just had gas.

You are doing very well. Keep up the brutal honesty. It will help to keep her from completely residing in fantasy land.

Take care,
Amy

[amd]

I was hoping for a revelation to come to her, for her to become emotional about the loss of our marriage. But it's still the same as it was I guess. So, Back to detaching and letting go. I'm sad again.

I wish I could go back in time and change this. But I can't.

As was said by someone else 'Detaching lovingly is the key to either happiness together or happiness apart. Either way we will be happy." I miss her.

Of course you miss her, Frank. And one day, she may have that revelation. In the meantime, keep detaching as best you can and live life for YOU. ou're sadnow for good reasons, but one day, as you pointed out, you will be happy again.

[SvenTheRed]

I was hoping for a revelation to come to her, for her to become emotional about the loss of our marriage. But it's still the same as it was I guess. So, Back to detaching and letting go. I'm sad again.

FD,
Your's and my W are clones - alien clones. Going through the same thing. The EA/PA is killing me. I know you have read my sitch too. I have really grown and GLA'd/DB's I think pretty well. I need to start being brutally honest (and if the change arises at MC this week, I will). It is morally wrong. I HOPE someday she wakes up and says "what the heck am I doing?". The boys and me will be at church again tomorrow (as with every Sunday). She hasn't gone in probably a year. It's funny because we go to a Catholic church (W is, I'm Methodist). From time to time over the past couple weeks, she asks me about something she has done (not related to our R) "will I go to he|| for this?". Tought to bite my tongue.

I really think (and here is the hard part) that in a lot of ways you are right - the EA/PA is not the reason for divorce - but they use it as "leverage", a way of explaining away the foolish pride around admitting to you that they are wrong.

As you know in my sitch, I have a W that might be as much as 75% of the way back (or maybe not). However, she cannot get over the 25% because she would have to explain herself - to everyone - about the OM, etc. and she cannot do that. She needs to see this through, blah, blah. I plan on telling her in MC that I have "forgiven her completely for all that I know about and don't. That I love her unconditionally but need to move on with my life. She KNOWS and has seen how self confident I am these days. I can only hope that rattles the foundation she is on. I'll be patient for a little long, but based on response, it might be time to uptick the detachment. e.g. I think she still has the sense that she will be able to stay in the house she does.

Anyway, I think you had a good exchange. Keep it up - there seems to be a crack there that might be opening. I think you did a good job at self control. That is key in the face of this adversity!

Keep it up.

E

[SvenTheRed]

Frank,
One other question - if you don't mind me asking. While going through this journey, do you still wear your wedding ring? There was a post a couple weeks ago on the Newcomer's forum to which I answered yes (because I still do). As another 180/GAL/LRT, I've been thinking of taking it off.

Thoughts anyone else? I really don't want to take it off. I feel like W is wearing me down...

E

[frank_D]

Frank,
One other question - if you don't mind me asking. While going through this journey, do you still wear your wedding ring?

Neither W or I have worn our rings for years. She is a massage therapist and stopped wearing it because she was afraid she might lose it. I work on electronics and took mine off to stick my hand in some equipment and never put it back on. Finger's too fat now.

Personally, I don't see the ring as a big deal. I prefer to be impeccable with my word, and my word is that I will be faithful.

[frank_D]

New years has come. In my previous post I said that W was coordial all day. Tonite could only be described as 'stand offish'. D15 had a few friends over for a small party. We played board games and card games for fun. W acted like I wasn't there most of the time. Of course I tried to be cool about it but it's hard NOT to feel the rejection.

Anyway, I gave all the teens rides home with D15 and on the way back from the last dropoff I asked her if I came across as 'down' to her friends as I didn't want to ruin her party so I was trying to be upbeat. She said 'No, you were OK but I have no idea what is up with Mom, she was very angry and out there'.

She asked me if I had any idea what was up and I said I wasn't sure, that W seemed like she was in a bad place emotionally. I mentioned to D15 that mom thought she was receiving negative energy from someone and D15 said 'Dad, I am really woried about her. Please make sure she doesn't join a cult or something. She says some stuff to me that she believes that I just can't understand how she can believe it.' (she couldn't give an example).

I told her not to worry, W is not nuts, she is just trying to understand her life.

That was so weird though, that D15 is getting bad vibes from W.

Anyway, tonite was cruddy but we lived. I have no idea what is making W hostile as we did't fight over anything, and this mornings emotional issues she had, where I held her to help her feel better, seemed to have ended up being the only time she was nice all day - when she needed me.

ANyway, I have been beat up enough lately so I'm back to my 'let go' mental state finally.

have a good beginning of the new year!

[hopefloats7]

Please make sure she doesn't join a cult or something. She says some stuff to me that she believes that I just can't understand how she can believe it.' (she couldn't give an example

frank,
just curious, you don't think your wife told your daughter about the whale thing, do you?

I'm sorry your new year is off to this kind of start. I totally understand, and I feel that I need to work on gaining back my husband's respect. I think that is very important, and I know he's still in selfish MLC mode but hopefully MY actions will help not only my self-esteem but also H's perception of me, and maybe the respect will slowly return.

I admire your strength and devotion to your family.
Happy New Year.

[hopefulmommy]

If you don't mind I'll share some thoughts on the conversation. I don't admit to be an excellent DBer, many others on this site may give better insight.

"In a split second I decide to push the limits and say: 'Well, I can see why she might be upset, you and OM really screwed both of us (GF and I)"

You obviously hit a button with this comment - You were able to let her know you disagree with her immoral action & brought light to how it affects you & OM's GF. AFter making your point, do not bring up OM. It will make you appear desparate & by discussing OM you only justify her decision & push her away further. It is so hard to let go of thinking about the affair, especially when you live in the same house. But once you quit focusing on the affair, you will feel much better.

"Me: "I'm not mad I'm just hurting too much right now. I can only take so much of your Adulterous Affair and the other emotional stuff with the divorce and I have to retreat and rebuild my strength".

I think this was an excellent response. You let her know you are moving on and working on making yourself better.


"W: OM is NOT the cause of D, it was going to happen anyway.

Me: Why do you say that?

W: I don't know, maybe so I can convince myself..."


Hmmmmm, admitting that she is trying to convince herself that divorce was inevitable??? Doesn't sound so sure of herself.

"Me: I've stayed out of your way for the past 2 months, I just can't stand here and take it forever. I need some time to transition myself to a more neutral emotional state while you pursue your affair. I know you're not going to end it like you are trying to tell me. You want it too bad."

This was another excellent way to tell her you are trying to move on.

"She wants me to stay living here for the kids sake, to keep a stable environment. I ask her if she wants the stable environment for herself too. She says it's not important to her. She does say she still wants to go to couples counseling to work on 'healing' the hurt between us. (This is important because our counselor is trying to bring her back to reality)."

I don't know your wife, but I find it very unusual that a woman who wants a D so badly would want her H to continue to live in the same house....Does she want you to still be living in the same house when OM supposedly moves?

At one point in the conversation your wife felt you blamed her for D - try to never make her feel this way again.
I haven't read your entire sitch, but based on what is in this linrk, you have a lot of postives. You & wife still live in same house & she wants it to stay that way - This give you the opportunity for more interactions. On a legal note, some states require a time of sep. before you can file for D...if you are not livinge in sep. households, can D be filed? It's great that you are going to counseling together & she wants to help heal the hurt...not sure of you C's approach but, it may not be good to bring up neg. from the past, it could stir up resentement. Hope your C is able to snap her back from whatever it is that she is going through.

With regards to your wife's bad mood today, you mentioned that your W mirrors your moods, have you been in a bad mood too? Or with a little wishful thinking, maybe OM & her had a tiff Good luck.

[frank_D]

just curious, you don't think your wife told your daughter about the whale thing, do you?

No way, she would have to tell her about the affair also. She won't do that.

Hmmmmm, admitting that she is trying to convince herself that divorce was inevitable???

I think she was questioning whether or not the AFFAIR is the reason for the divorce and whether the divorce was inevitable. The way I framed it for her by saying 'you intended on pursuing him while you were still in Hawaii, before you decided to tell me you wanted a divorce.' I believe had to make her question her decision and it's implications. I mean, if affair thoughts came before divorce request did then she has to admit she gave up on US FOR OM. She hasn't wanted to admit that. I could be wrong on this but it feels right. Even if it is subconscious.

I find it very unusual that a woman who wants a D so badly would want her H to continue to live in the same house

Economics and impact on the kids. Counselor said it would be better if we could stay togehter and be civil at least till summer. And it's good for DB'ing.

With regards to your wife's bad mood today, you mentioned that your W mirrors your moods, have you been in a bad mood too? Or with a little wishful thinking, maybe OM & her had a tiff

I'm not in a bad mood at all. Although it has been hard NOT to get in one with her around me today. Also, I would find it hard to believe that OM and her had any negative interaction. Remember that they are 3,000 miles apart and realistically can only talk about nice things. It could be that her attempts to set up another meeting haven't worked out. That would irk her since her addiction to the affair can't be itched.

It has continued all day. Even D15 told me that she was so glad to be out of the house because of the feeling of depression everywhere. When D10 went to bed she asked me to sit with her so she could cry, because she needed to cry. I did for about 15 minutes. She couldn't tell me why she needed it, she just did.

We went to a movie and I would see W occasionally wiping a tear or two from her eyes and look away. At one point she got up and had to go somewhere for about 10 minutes. It wasn't during any sad parts of the movie either.

We drove 1/2 hour to a chinese food place we like and during the drive she stared out the window in pain. The dinner was ok, W was pleasant but there was a definate heavyness in the air. D15 mentioned it to me when W went to the bathroom and wondered if it was because of her. She didn't indicate what she might have done but I told her probably not since it really began yesterday morning.

After dinner W got a fortune cookie and she read it but wouldn't tell us what it said because it was 'so appropriate to her life'. Note: She has a fortune she has saved that says 'you will find romance from far away' or something like that which of course to her refers to OM who is far away.

I spent the whole drive home trying to think of all the fortunes I've ever heard from that place and what each might mean. Pretty sick huh? I kind of decided that pretty much all fortunes refer to jobs, money or relationships and they usually refer to 'change'. So who knows. Since she was pleasant to me I figured she isn't planning on changing anything with our living arrangements or the D. So whatever she's upset about is still a mystery.

On the ride home she talked a little and was also pleasant. Same thing when we got home. She went in her room to read after we put D10 to bed (mentioned above). We had been watching TV and as she left the room she smiled a warm smile and picked up the remote from the table next to her and handed it to me. Hasn't done that in a long while. Then she left the room. D15 came down to ask me if she could go to her boyfriends tomorrow so she could 'get out of this depressing place'. I told her sure but ask Mom also. W said ok and as D15 went by me she whispered 'Thanks dad I would have gone crazy staying here'.

So, I am clueless here. It would be great if SHE is having second thoughts about OM and the D, even if it means she is going to cut off relationship with him and proceed with D just to prove a point. OM is a distraction.

I was thinking that maybe she is just unhappy because she can't be with OM and is stuck here with her family. But there isn't evidence that she is calling or e-mailing more.

I also know she talked with her mom yesterday or today and she may have told her about affair and gotten a negative review. No idea. I have also noticed that I have not seen her on the computer. My network logs show that she has been online but not how long or how often. It's just that for the past few weeks she would be online a lot, chatting with OM, so I would have pretty good odds of 'seeing' her online. Past 2 days I haven't seen her online so she has slowed down a bit.
Whatever it is, I have to continue to believe that nothing has changed with OM or I'll go crazy.

I did realize that I'm freaking out about this. Which means I haven't DETACHED now, have I? So back to that again. I have to detach before anything will actually begin to work, if it's going to.

[Keyster43]

frank,
Here you are, now I will make you one of my favorites. You are one funny dude . I like that. Now I have o read your thread. Be back in a bit.

AK

[hopefloats7]

frank,

you sound good; I'm happy to hear that.

When D10 went to bed she asked me to sit with her so she could cry, because she needed to cry. I did for about 15 minutes. She couldn't tell me why she needed it, she just did.

We went to a movie and I would see W occasionally wiping a tear or two from her eyes and look away. At one point she got up and had to go somewhere for about 10 minutes. It wasn't during any sad parts of the movie either.

W. sounds depressed, and maybe it has nothing to do with what's going on with OM, although it is good that you heard from your friend that OM may not be telling your wife what she wants to hear right now. Let's hope that keeps up!!

You still see her and spend so much time together (compared to some of us with WAS's) that I really feel hopeful for you. I don't think there is anything you could be doing differently or better, to be honest. You've got a good hold on the situation, and you aren't pushing W. into anything.

You and I are both on new ground with this detaching plan. I've decided to go the same route, because anything else is just not getting me anywhere, and it literally made me sick. We have to take care of ourselves, and let them do the same.

[frank_D]

W. sounds depressed, and maybe it has nothing to do with what's going on with OM, although it is good that you heard from your friend that OM may not be telling your wife what she wants to hear right now. Let's hope that keeps up!!

You and I are both on new ground with this detaching plan. I've decided to go the same route, because anything else is just not getting me anywhere, and it literally made me sick. We have to take care of ourselves, and let them do the same.

Yeah, she's been ok today whenever I've seen her. And the friend was just speculating, she doesn't know OM personally, just from the Hawaii retreat, and was being hopeful even though she does expect this guy to eventually fizzle out.

I agree with detaching. It's way too painful to stay close to her. I end up being needy instead of loving. I haven't been putting a visualization in my mind of us together because it hurts too much.

Instead I have been seeing her gone because as I accept that as the worst possible outcome, if it happens I'll be ok, and if not I'll be better!

We get along and there are definatly feelings there from time to time but the feelings for the Affair are much stronger for her. I'm sure he hasn't given up on this interaction with her, he's too weak to walk away.

And, I was soooo tempted to read her e-mail or check phone logs but I WON'T DO IT! Better to leave it where it last was so there are no false hopes for me. If she IS upset over him then that still means she doesn't care about me so there is no reason to change my plan - detach and let go.

Her hurting is better than being 'giddy' with the Affair. Even if Affair hasn't changed at all the hurting comes from somewhere and has to be making her think about her life and what she is doing. That has to be a good thing since she can't keep running away from things. And, whatever she is feeling it isn't because of ME, which is a good thing!

And, I can hope.

[frank_D]

Well, she got online at about 4:30 and chatted with OM. Afterwards seemed much happier. How nice. Looks like the depression is over. Must be he was unavailable for a couple days and she was worried he was going away.

We went to her Dad's for dinner. She has a glass of wine and was Miss 'outgoing and friendly'. (Note: A couple weeks ago we were there for dinner and she told him about the D and her affair and told Stepmom how it was such a deep, moving love she has found ) It is starting to bug me, the shallowness I see in her.

I talked to Stepmom who I hadn't talked to since last dinner. She started telling me how she was still shocked that W told her all about how she met OM in Hawaii and felt the love and energy in every fiber of her body.

She told me how apalled she was that W was TELLING her this. She told me that 'of course the newness of the relationship is going to feel that way but it won't last and it's not morally right to even be DOING this. She said that she can't believe that our marriage wasn't salvagable. W told her she 'married too young' and she said to me 'so she thinks it's ok to ruin your kids lives? You WORK on your marriage no matter what!'

I was surprised and relieved that they didn't support her at all. Then I told her that most of her sane friends don't either and she only talks to her friends that are happy for her. She knew exactly which two they were as they are the most troubled ones.

Her dad is really hurt because W's brother had a divorce and they don't get to see their grandkids. Now that W is having an Affair and getting D her dad feels like a total failure.

I guess it really hit home. Other family are being hurt by this too. I thought it was just me.

It is just like the essay on romantic infidelity says

No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

We don't really see them a lot so it will have very little impact on W. She doesn't respect her dad even though he is a decent person these past 20 years I've known him. She has childhood issues with him.

Questions to DB'ers:

What should they do that would be helpful? Personally I think they should make it very clear that they think what she is doing is immoral and ask that she not come to visit, just me and the kids or something? Ideas?

I'm just disgusted with her. I don't want to come across as angry, but I need to just stop dealing with her right now. I don't even want to talk to her any more. She is so selfish and detached and thinks she is so much fun now and her life is going the way she wants it to go... woo hoo.

Meanwhile, my D's are hurt, her dad is hurt, I am hurt. I am thinking of telling her that she has succeeded in finally hurting her dad.

I can't keep blaming myself for my role in the MARRIAGE problems. I didn't MAKE her have an affair. She did it herself. I have made the changes needed to fix the marriage. she doesn't give a rats a$$. She was such a sweet and wonderful woman before.

Every day it's getting easier to let go and detach because she has a day where she is emotionally like her 'old self' but then she goes back to selfish mode for several days and I start to dislike her.

How do I DB this? I really don't want to talk to her, I don't like her the way she is. It's hard not to just say 'screw her, look at what kind of person she turned out to be' and start real divorce proceedings, then take the kids away and live on our own without her.

I know if you follow my threads I go back and forth between thinking she can be saved, to wanting nothing to do with her. I still have a hardtime dealing with what a piece of garbage OM is for 'dating' a married woman who was 'unhappy with her marriage'. How the F does he know that she was REALLY not able to salvage it? He has made sure she CAN'T salvage it now. Maggot.

Don't know what to do, I'm disgusted.

[spitfire23]

Hang in there, Frank. It's all a part of the rollercoaster ride. You have done a great job up to this point. Don't be so hard on yourself.

It's ok if you don't like your W right now. She's an alien. Try to remember that WAS and OP don't look at this sitch like they've "done" anything to hurt anyone else. They are in love. They are living their lives for themselves. They bury the guilt under that blanket of "I'm entitled to be happy. I'm not intentionally hurting anyone. I can't help it if they feel that way. It's my life. Blah, blah, blah"

It's ok that you are disgusted. I'm disgusted for you. I still think you've got half a chance to save this, if you still want to. Stay in the house. Keep your family together and try to ignore W's craziness.

Hope the day gets better.

Spitfire

[frank_D]

Spitfire23: It's ok that you are disgusted. I'm disgusted for you. I still think you've got half a chance to save this, if you still want to. Stay in the house. Keep your family together and try to ignore W's craziness.

Thanks for the support. You always seem to find something good from something I see as bad.

Saw my counselor today and told her all the stories. She still says 80% chance that I will pull this back together in 6 months or so. Sigh.

So, I'm going to relate some of the insights I got with her today. I know that these seem to be helpful to others and it helps me to write them somewhere too!

Regarding the new years eve 'disconnect' she thinks that the morning hug I gave W when she was hurting over her feelings for D15 and her dream, caused W to have a conflict - if she doesn't 'need me' then how come she gets emotional support from me and likes it? For that act of kindness she had to push me away. COnsider that a healthy person would have felt grateful for your support and been nicer to you.

She also thinks that OM seems to be unavailable during the holiday weekend. When W was all upset new years day and into monday but then perked up after Messaging with OM she said 'she was not getting her FIX every day and needed it. When she got her FIX she was ok then'.

By the way, she likes my name for him, 'maggot' 'lives off the flesh of others'.

For detachment, you have to really stop caring. don't let the other person get ANY reading on how you are feeling about THEM or what they are doing. Be indifferent and say NO a lot. Like if they ask you to go somewhere or to do something for them, say 'no, I'd rather not'. Don't assist or cooperate in anything they are doing that doesn't affect YOU, YOUR KIDS or anything related to both.

The idea is to make them truly see what life is like without you, which we see in LRT. I just happen to relate well to these explanations C gave me today.

C says in a couple weeks she will change her behavior in some way, as we have seen in other peoples sitch's.

BUT an important point: When they are EMOTIONALLY needy you have to make a choice as to whether or not to be there for them. The easiest test to think of, whether you are religious or not, is think "What Would Jesus Do?". Would he comfort the person as a human being would another human being, or let them stand in their pain so they may learn from it? When these things happen, you'll know what to do.

So of course I said 'I really think that if I do detach and stop caring, I won't care if she ever comes back to the marriage. I mean, how can I forgive her for what she's doing?'

Counselor: Over the years I've seen many of these situations where one has an affair and the other is extremely hurt by it.

Think about having a very lovable and loyal puppy who you never think of as having a mean or agressive bone in their body. But then a rabbit hops by and they run off in a mad dash to chase that rabbit. Nothing else matters to them! They have to catch the rabbit! Nothin you say will stop them and they don't know why they do it, they just DO. But, after the rabbit chase they go back to being 'normal' again.

Maybe they got hurt while chasing the rabbit and they need to be healed. Maybe they feel bad because they heard you calling them and they know what they did was 'bad'. Eventually though they stop chasing the rabbit and unless they got lost, they find their way home.

In 'letting go', when the LBS is able to stop needing the love and start giving love without any expectation of anything in return it opens the door to a new level of loving. Real Love. This kind of love can bring a marriage to a new, stronger place where you are with someone because you CHOOSE to GIVE love and they CHOOSE to GIVE you love and neither of you is there because you NEED them to GIVE YOU love. In that case their transgressions won't matter as much because your new relationship is based on you GIVING them love instead of NEEDING them to give you love.

And we can do that with out WAS eventually as we heal ourselves from NEEDING and begin to learn GIVING without receiving. Give freely to all those you meet, including WAS but keep your heart door closed against those who would TAKE.

I think I get it.

Mantra:

Be indifferent to their actions and needs.

Stop caring what will happen to them. They are making their life choices and they will reap the results.

Never tell them how you feel about anything related to THEM. If they ask, tell them you are doing what you need to do to move on and in my case, to be able to take care of the kids. Tell them you are not angry at them. Tell them NOTHING that will allow them to know for sure they still have you on a string.

Don't be helpful in any way except for things that benefit you, your kids or the family. Everything else benefits them, and they don't want you, remember? Just say "I'd rather not".

GIVE love to others without expectations. When you can do that with WAS and feel good about it, your life will change.

[hopefloats7]

frank,

beautiful post! I totally agree with you. I'm choosing to give love to H. even though he is not doing the same back to me. And I've stopped being so needy. I just can't do it anymore. I lost my self-respect.

What happens when in the normal course of a relationship things get difficult? People tend to do what's easiest for them, which is to replay ingrained behaviors, and since their innate behaviors tend toward selfishness, the old adage "If he/she cheated with you, he/she can cheat on you" comes to mind, and will probably come to both their minds too. Certainly, such selfish traits probably play out in other ways as well between them.
Amen, NYS.