Whoa, I'm not suffering much anymore! Now what?!?

[Vanilla]

Hmmmm..........

Porn is porn, desire is desire, sex is sex.

I do not believe we are really discussing anything related to rude bits, nooky or pimples.

Warning guys really controversial views to come!

I think we are discussing addiction which is about power and distraction. Porn addiction, online games, trillomania hoarding, eating medical waste, excessive cosmetic surgery, gambling and EA/PA, these are all behavioural addictions. The route is the same, distraction, obsession and lack of mindfulness and connection.

The object is truly irrelevant. These behavioural addictions are an attempt to fill the soul, a place which needs to be full of the higher power. The answer is a twelve step programme. These are no different from substance addictions, drugs, caffeine, food, alcohol and sugar. The later are easier to change attitude towards but more immediately physiologically destructive.

In the end all of this is about self management, I do not like control as that sounds central heating like. I think when we truly open our hearts to the higher power within us this all truly falls away. It matters only that we want to be the best we can be, irrespective of our indulgences (oh how I desire Liam, chocolate and Rioja, all together in the altogether).

It is less about a match with those who will satisfy us and more about how we can realistically tolerate others who are different.

V

[Zues126]

Very well said Vanilla.

Over the last few weeks I've been thinking a lot about how we meet our needs. We all have some human needs. We can meet them in a variety of ways, healthy or unhealthy.

When we meet our needs in unhealthy ways it gets mixed up. On the one hand, we recognize the behavior is unhealthy and destructive. On the other, there is something compelling about it because it is giving us something we need. I mentioned porn went well beyond physical needs (be it release or endorphins), and met emotional needs such as feeling understood and validated. Finally, you have some of the addictive properties you described like needing to escape, or trying to distract from spiritual voids. Like someone eating when we’re actually thirsty, we can try things that don’t even meet those needs but can offer something that helps us medicate instead. So it’s easy to say “porn is bad, stop using it” as a stand-alone position. While that’s fair, it doesn’t address the rest of the issue. That is that there are some real needs that are very valid. Quitting is the first step because you can’t really start healing with the ‘drug’ still in your system, but it’s equally important to find some healthy ways to meet those needs instead. Otherwise it won’t last. That’s what I learned from my first failed attempt.

There are similarities and differences with other addictions like alcohol or narcotics. I agree spirituality plays a large role, letting go of control, having faith, focusing on something beyond yourself. Yet the program that I’ve been following doesn’t recommend a 12 step approach to porn. The reason is that with drugs/alcohol/gambling- those are activities that are almost entirely unnatural and destructive. There is no good that comes out of cocaine for example. But with sexual disorders, eating disorders, etc, it is more difficult because you can’t simply “quit”. If you’re an overeater you can’t just swear off food. And if you use porn you can’t just classify our sexuality as bad. Instead, we have to learn what parts of our sexuality is natural, healthy, and positive, and what is destructive.

So the program I’m in is all about learning to start sorting out the difference. If the needs are healthy and natural, then validate them, and accept them. If they are unnatural and destructive, let them go, but figure out what base needs those behaviors would be meeting, and substitute different activities that might be better instead. Zypher mentioned working out, that is a great example as it is physical activity that changes your state of mind. So if the ‘craving’ was coming from a physical urge this would be a great response. If the craving was coming from a need to be understood, maybe posting on this forum would help. If the need was to feel accepted, then maybe talking to a friend that is supportive would help. And so on. My IC is a big believer in this, as is my DB coach. My IC was very in favor of this approach vs. just focusing on abstinence. My DB coach was the one that had me try to identify my more base needs in a list, then write a second list with alternative activities that could meet those needs.

I feel better this time around. The same way that when we GAL and learn to take care of ourselves it makes detachment easier, porn has had much less hold on me than it did the first go-round when I just abstained. As you can tell I’ve been giving a lot of thought to whether my thoughts and desires are natural or not, because although I’m still adjusting I am also trying to be aware of what’s going on in my head and my heart.

Cadet- thank you for the link and the quote. Very powerful. I think this all ties together, because during my M I was TOO dependent on my W and our SL to meet too many of my needs. It put way too much pressure on my W, and left me feeling empty and depressed. I really think I was very emotionally disconnected and was using sex to meet pretty much all of my needs. Quitting porn was a big step, but even bigger than that has been that I’ve been slowing down, living with my emotions, learning what they are telling me, and finding reasonable ways to take care of them. I feel more “normal” now than I ever have before, and I’m excited because for the first time in my life I feel like I might be able to grow into a healthy specimen.

PS- Start a new thread, I know…it’s coming. Just wanted to wrap this conversation up. We have room for a couple of comments then I’ll kick something off with a fresh slate. Thanks all!

[Pyrite]

Its all about LINES again isn't it. Life in general is. One man's trash is anothers treasure. One man's healthy need is another's unhealthy addiction. Sorry this is a bit of journalling here, I need to clarify this to get a picture of where I am headed:

I have an addictive personality. Some aspects (drugs,alcohol) are pretty hard to argue were anything other than troublesome, unhealthy addictions. It is true that I still functioned, achieved and got through it, but no doubt I would have coped with my life at that time much better LESS the drugs.

The same personality (disorder) has lead to me being a perfectionist, over-analytical. Even these are extreme descriptions carrying negative connotations but my point is that these qualities almost define how successful you are in my field of work.

This same personality is born arguably from my genetic make up and life experience. This experience was interpreted through a filter that was constructed in my early development. This filter possibly evolved but I dont think my filter/personality changed dramatically from that carved in my early development. It probably isn't unreasonable to describe it like this: personalities in general have to be balanced. So there is a complimentary, opposite to particular aspects. In my case, both sides of the same trait can be seen in for e.g. above.

This perfectionism leaks into my life and Rs, but what killed my M included another personality trait. Starting from the healthy need end - all i needed/wanted was for my partner to make me feel special. The unhealthy part was that I NEEDED acceptance to support low self-esteem, not just wanted this to support a healthy R. My behaviour was to set my W up to check she wanted/needed/loved me.

In this case I have to stop the destructive behaviour (Abstinence). Obviously this follows from my NEEDing her acceptance which I have to modify. I "need" this because of low-self esteem issues which is deeply ingrained.

So the "issue" whether it is porn, drugs, controlling - i think you have to tackle it from both ends, not either/or. In all cases require a tailored fix as well. Alcoholism obviously altering the behaviour is paramount, and then addressing the underlying causes. Where as my case ^^ is probably more the other way around.

[Vanilla]

Some ideas that I feel able to challenge.

Firstly abstaining isn't recovery. Abstaining is like flying a plane with the destination set to (say) the Middle of the Atlantic. In order to travel to Japan, the pilot holds the plane on course against his auto controls. That is fine until eventually he tires and the plane reverts to flying to the middle of the Atlantic and certain destruction. Recovery is different to abstaining, recovery is about saying this is tough on my own, I accept that this is bigger than me and that I need help to do so. That is twelve steps. Twelve steps is the antithesis of abstaining.

Secondly, there is confusion between abuse and porn. There can be abuse in the making of porn and I trust there are few who would condone abuse, especially of the vulnerable. So the issue with porn is the sense that there is paying for abuse to continue. Perpetuating the cycle of abuse and damage. I believe that has to be accepted. As far as I am concerned consenting adult stuff is just that consenting and frankly no one else's business.

Thirdly, it is the compulsive nature of the addiction which is damaging, the involvement to the exclusion of other needs. An example may be that many drinkers go to the pub and have three or four pints each night, pack up go home. Sometimes they don't drink but they can stop. Others, the compulsive ones never know if they start drinking tonight if they will binge or not. If the compulsion is dealt with by abstaining then that compulsive nature will emerge in a different compulsion, causing cross addictions. My H claimed to abstain from gambling but became compulsive about golf, cigarettes and is well on his way to alcoholism. He is also a compulsive spender and womaniser. Why? because he did not deal with his compulsion fully, he did so by abstaining. His plane is heading for the mid Atlantic.As his W and now his WAW I was tired of the line in the sand attitude, you have issues deal with them.

Fourthly, porn and desires are different to wants. I have a happily married friend whose H has exotic tastes which they have discussed and indulge from time to time. It works both ways, not her bag but her love enables her to participate. Although I confess her H would much rather have a more active energetic partner than one who compromises out of love. I suppose it depends on the nature of the desire too, and trust me I have plenty too. In my book if my STBX used porn it would only bother me if it became compulsive like his gambling. He lost presence in his life by the compulsion not by that need. For H this was a distraction from his insecurity and need. Abstaining alone wont heal. I went to counselling with him, attended Gamanon for me so I could cope with his gambling and provide for him a healing environment.

Of course stopping the interaction with the compulsion , in this case porn is the first step to recovery. If low self esteem is the trigger then address it. Your W Pyrite has no power to make you feel 'special' that is your power alone, and you can make you feel special. There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.

As far as V is concerned porn is the expression of the compulsion not its cause. It is brave of you both to discuss this so openly.

Zues, you and I have had similar discussions in the past. Lets be clear porn can (but not always will) interact with abuse, control and harm and society of itself can punish those whose involve themselves in harming others particularly those vulnerable through age, financial circumstances and family background. Abstaining is hard to maintain without steps to heal and recover.

Peace

V

[Pyrite]

Thanks Vanilla. I certainly agree with your assessment of abstinence not really being recovery. I was thinking more of say an alcoholic presenting his excessive drinking to his Dr. The Dr would say first up - kill the drinking.

Of course stopping the interaction with the compulsion , in this case porn is the first step to recovery. If low self esteem is the trigger then address it. Your W Pyrite has no power to make you feel 'special' that is your power alone, and you can make you feel special. There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.

OK so this is the thing. low self-esteem is there. even if it wasn't

There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.

but when you dont get this and you already have low self-estem..... train wreck.

So - yes I agree that I have to fix my self-esteem, so that i feel special on my own, but this doesn't change basic requirement ^^ of a relationship.

Am I getting this wrong here?

BTW - just for the record I have/had problems with compulsive behaviour but porn isn't really one of them. I can understand it though, and could cross over very easily.

[Joe46]

I would like to put in my 2 cents on this topic. I have been following this for a bit. This is just my opinion. I do have a little experience with this as WW and I have dealt with the porn issue. To me, addiction to porn where it is a problem is when it takes up your free time, spending too much money on it, spending money you don't have on it, would rather watch porn than anything else and if it causes problems in a relationship. I can also see where it could be a problem because someone is more comfortable with porn than interacting in a actual relationship.

My WW has accused me of always having to watch porn when we fooled around. This came up a couple months ago of course. I did validate her concern and apologized if I had hurt her in anyway. But the truth was, she wanted to watch it just as much as I did. She used to stop and pick up a movie once in awhile years ago. I also would start fooling around with her and she would say, why don't you put a movie in. She liked to play around and it worked for us because it was mutual. However, now I am a pig because it was all my fault and she just did it because that is what I wanted.

I watch porn from time to time. I do not spend a dime on it. But I am human and have urges. It is what it is. I am hoping that whoever I end up with in the future will want to spice things up also, but it is not a requirement for me. My WW pretty much controlled the bedroom stuff. If she was in the mood, we were good. If not, I may have played around to see if I could start something. If it worked, great. If not I left it alone. Have I had feelings of rejection at times, YES. But I got over it. I am human. I have emotions.

I think if someone feels they have a big problem than maybe they need to seek help to control it some. But if someone enjoys porn from time to time or wants it to be a big thing in the bedroom, than find a partner that also wants it. They are out there. Hopefully I made some sense. I am not on the intellectual level alot of you others are!! LOL!! I am just a simple country boy!!

[Pyrite]

oh and BTW V,

your example of the also and the pub is spot on and highlights an important part of the "compulsive behaviour" that I have founds usually invisible to others. I recall having to convince people that I did indeed have a problem (with drugs,alcohol). One of the things that I was aware of and scared of was exactly that - once I started, no matter where or how a multi-day bender was always on the cards. it often didn't end up that way, but that was as much chance as anything else.


New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...442#Post2568442