Why do you need an apology if you weren't perfect in the marriage either?
Most infidelity experts will tell you that although many (even half) of formerly wayward spouses won't actually use the words "I'm sorry," a general attitude of remorse -- coupled with a self-awareness as to both the damage their affair caused AND some understanding of what led them to decide to take that step -- are necessary for proper marital recovery.
I don't see ANY of that in Mrs. PKP. Then again, I only have PKP's descriptions about her and their interactions, so that's the standard disclaimer, but I just don't see it. I think she's just afraid she's lost her Plan B.
Starsky
Part of what is throwing me at me is that she's crying all the time. She told me last night that she's mad that she doesn't have any control about whether she gets upset or not. Maybe there's more going on she just doesn't want to share. Maybe she is ashamed and aware, but is just too proud to show it. That's why I'd like to get her under the scrutiny of a trained professional again. Because I'm REALLY tired of being Plan B.
One thing me and the fetching Mrs. Starsky did, was -- rather than just DISMISS our divorce action when we reconciled -- we did two successive 3-month STAYS of it. We knew us, and we tend to respond better sometimes with a "gun to our head" so to speak, and we took this time to date each other and take things slowly.
It's a middle ground between "D" and "no D."
After the six months, we went ahead and dismissed the divorce action, and we've been together ever since.
One thing me and the fetching Mrs. Starsky did, was -- rather than just DISMISS our divorce action when we reconciled -- we did two successive 3-month STAYS of it. We knew us, and we tend to respond better sometimes with a "gun to our head" so to speak, and we took this time to date each other and take things slowly.
It's a middle ground between "D" and "no D."
After the six months, we went ahead and dismissed the divorce action, and we've been together ever since.
Just a thought.
Starsky
It's funny...that's a little along the lines of what I'd just posted on another forum. The more I pull away, the more she's been reconsidering. When she's asked about whether we should cancel the mediation, I've told her that we can always stop it until the point where the judge finally issues the decree. I'm keeping this particular ship sailing full-speed ahead...and I think she sees the precipice approaching. Your idea of staying the action is an interesting one...I'll keep it in mind.
In the meantime, I've scheduled another appointment with the MC for this Monday. Originally it was for me to figure out how to explain what was happening to our DD, what "public story" I should provide for what happened...it might feel good if the neighbors looked down in the wake of me leaving, but it certainly wouldn't make my DD's life any easier, and to try and give me some ideas of WHY (even if they're general ideas refined by the brief time she met my WW). I've also invited my WW to come along, in case she's willing to be in the hotseat again.
I woke up this morning very much on the wrong side of the bed...too late to fall back to sleep and too early to just get up and head out for the office. I thought I might as well update this thread instead.
Mrs. PKP agreed over the weekend to go to the MC with me. We did manage to hit on the questions of when to tell DD about a separation (when enough is happening that she recognizes changes) and what we should present as a public story (only as much as we're comfortable disclosing - this really is a PRIVATE matter, after all...I paid for that advice?). We once again spent nearly two hours with the MC, well beyond the original 45-50 minutes we'd been scheduled for. I don't know if we just have an interesting story and we're that engaging of a couple or if this MC is a glutton for punishment. We spent nearly the entire time discussing my WW's sexual aversion towards me. (This is where I just shake my head...)
The session started with the MC saying that I had already sent her a list of things I wanted to discuss (I like having an agenda to keep the discussions on track) and we could stick with that or we could pick up where we left off. I offered that since my wife decided to come, I'd be interested in picking up where we left off. To be honest, the path to how we got there was a bit of a blur. I remember filling in the MC on the discussion we had after the last session and my WW saying that she felt that I was putting less pressure on her when I thought that we would be separating (that she finds "that" pkp to be easier to get along with and live with). When I act like that she's actually pretty happy with how things go...if it weren't for this sexual aversion she has towards me (wtf are they talking about in IC?!?!).
I won't even try to develop the discussion, so I'll just summarize as best as I can. She had used the pregnancy as a means of avoiding sex, but shortly afterwards was the last time since our DD was born. Even before that our sex life had been quite lackluster. What she attributed this to was her strong unfavorable view towards my aggression when she would agree to sex. She didn't feel that she could trust me to have an open discussion about it and therefore didn't have a voice in the situation, so it was easier to avoid entirely. What originally formed as a dislike for having sex with me developed into a dislike for any physical contact with me, then finally into a physical reaction to the thought of physical contact. She doesn't see how she can get past this (Googling "wife sexual aversion" turns up a couple of more palatable options besides "do it till you're over it"). She mentioned how even now I'll make comments that seem to come from left field that simply turn her off. The MC was swift to come to my defense, saying that Mrs. PKP should keep in mind that she also has a husband who hasn't had sex in three years. I offered that I'm also a nonlinear thinker, so going from A-E is obvious to me, but not everyone else in the discussion. She also mentioned my half of some post-coital barbs we tended to throw at one another, but neglected to mention her comments that ALWAYS precipitated mine.
I obviously wasn't sitting there quietly the entire time. As with the last session I didn't argue with my WW's view and agreed that her observations were probably true. I probably had treated her like a sexual object and hadn't asked what she wanted. I pointed out that 1) we're talking about things that had happened SEVEN YEARS ago (for a 30 year old guy that's a while) and 2) she never said anything. I also explained that my WW had been my only regular sexual partner since high school...there had been one night stands and one brief fling, but nothing serious or long term (had there been I probably wouldn't have gotten back together with WW, DD wouldn't have been born, and I'm really starting to hate butterflies and their effects at the moment). Compared to my wife I was sexually inexperienced and really didn't know any different than what I'd always done.
My WW also at one point asked what it was that I would need from her for me to want to stay in the marriage. So far we had only discussed what she needed...maybe the things I would want from her would be deal-breakers. This was towards the end of a the two hours and I was fried. The ones that I could throw out were showing a remorse for the affair, for how she handled herself after the affair (I explained about the guy on the cruise ship), how she handled herself DURING the affair, and for her stint on Craigslist (I explained that she was picking guys up off the internet...I didn't explain that she was getting money or gifts for her...ahem...companionship). I also explained that this wasn't her first affair...that she had been the OW once and asked if she felt any empathy for that guy's wife.
There were two more points that are worth noting. - I mentioned again how my WW isn't sure whether or not the changes I've been trying to make will 'stick'. I explained that the reason I had started laughing when my wife mentioned her sexual aversion towards me was because of all the things that she had listed as "wrong" about me, that was the only one that I needed her active participation to address. Everything else she had mentioned in the past were things that I knew about and weren't satisfied with as an individual (as opposed to as a marriage partner). The changes that I was making weren't in order to save the marriage or to make her happy...they were a quality of life issue for me. I was doing them for me. - The MC explained that statistically infidelities are split 60/40 between men and women. The people she see's in her office, however, are typically closer to 90/10 for men and women. Most men when finding out about a wife's infidelity immediately take off. Of the 3-4 that she has in her office right now, all have moved out and come back to work on the marriage, but are still struggling to accept what their wives have done. Except for me. I told her that I had already accepted my role in the problems in the marriage prior to the affair. I understood (on a shallow level) why my WW chose to cheat. I also felt that the affair was, after my DD, one of the best things that has happened to me. It woke me up from the depression I'd settled into over those years and look to see what my life had actually become. It made me reassess and challenge long-held beliefs and misconceptions about how I interact with the world. I explained how prior to the affair, the only options that I saw were staying in a shitty marriage or suicide. After the affair I realized that there were much more appealing options. I ALSO reminded her that I'm also moving forward with divorce proceedings.
Since that session my WW is concerned that we'll be wasting a ton of money if we actually follow through with the divorce if we only reconcile shortly after I move out. I pointed out that if that actually happened it would probably be the money we'd spent the best in quite some time. She's also talking about trips to Disneyland and Disney cruises. She's told me that things weren't as bad before DD (I pointed out that our problems had still been there) and that maybe we needed to spend a bit more money on babysitters and just going out and enjoying time as a couple. That is what is pissing me off. She's spending time looking down the road at what could be, but isn't interested in doing the work necessary to get there.
PKP it must be frustrating not having the solid commitment from your W at the moment to work on the marriage and put in the effort needed however it does sound as though her attitude toward things is changing and she's "testing the water" somewhat, imagining what your future could be like and testing out in her head if that's what she wants.
I'm no expert but I'd say keep back, let her go through this process in her own time without any pressure from you - it's so hard not to want 100% commitment after everything that she's put you through and it seems very unfair that they aren't wiling to do that but I'd say this period of time now is crucial and how you handle it could make a huge difference to whether your wife eventually makes that commitment or not.
It sounds like your doing fantastic, things are much more positive, take it very slowly and let her take the lead. I hope things continue in a positive direction for you.
Divorce Final: Oct 2014
Your struggles today, develop strength for tomorrow...
PKP it must be frustrating not having the solid commitment from your W at the moment to work on the marriage and put in the effort needed however it does sound as though her attitude toward things is changing and she's "testing the water" somewhat, imagining what your future could be like and testing out in her head if that's what she wants.
I can understand her frustration and can see where part of it comes from. When I'm in the frame of mind where we're focused on separating I'm relaxed, calm, and more "go with the flow". When we start talking reconciliation, it feels like I put on the full-blown fucktard suit and start strutting around. My anxiety and stress go through the roof as I start feeling like everything I say and do HAVE to be perfect...I start overthinking things and all too often end up putting my foot in my mouth.
Originally Posted By: Upwards
I'm no expert but I'd say keep back, let her go through this process in her own time without any pressure from you - it's so hard not to want 100% commitment after everything that she's put you through and it seems very unfair that they aren't wiling to do that but I'd say this period of time now is crucial and how you handle it could make a huge difference to whether your wife eventually makes that commitment or not.
I'm going to make an effort today to back off a bit as you suggested and hopefully change the tone of the weekend.
Disclaimer: This is another venting post. I apologize for its length in advance, but these have been a rough few weeks.
I think that I made a big mistake this past week. My WW said that she wanted to take a break from IC and MC for a little while because all that either one of the counselors wanted to talk about or would eventually came back to was her “willingness”. She’d been hearing it twice a week for three weeks straight and she didn’t want to sit through another session. I told her that in the next session I had been planning on talking about what I would need from her to fix things in the marriage. On that basis she agreed to go in…the mistake I think I made was cajoling her to go along.
Anyone who has followed my story knows that I’m a pretty calm guy – it takes a fair bit to get me angry. I was so angry during the session that my hands were shaking. It has taken me nearly 24 hours for them to stop and I think it’ll take a few hours at the boxing gym to unload some of this tension. If we go back to counseling again, it will be with someone else. I’ll send along a “back of the box” summary of our story (even though they might want to hear it summarized first hand) and the little flow chart that I made while trying to visualize how all of our problems are intertwined. What basically happened was I went into the session with a list of issues I wanted to lay out and the counselor invalidated each, saying that she had been hoping for a “bottom-line issue” (like my wife’s sexual aversion) and not these marital issues…only after spending a few moments relating each issue to her own life or to another client she’s seeing. I don’t know what had me angrier with the situation – that these things weren’t just dismissed as marital issues, but were turned around and made a problem that I’m making in the marriage or that I allowed someone to make me really not give a damn anymore whether the relationship survived or not. I feel like I’ve been the only one fighting for this thing.
I led with some “soft” issues: changing the tone in the relationship from adversarial to collaborative and stopping the use of criticism and shaming to enact changes in behavior. The MC interpreted the first as us having old wounds that need to be closed (no, I told her….we had things from our past that needed to be put into context to understand where we’re coming from, but all of the issues that we need to address have happened within the past five years). She gave me a knowing but disbelieving look. With the criticism she carried on about Gottman’s “four horsemen of a relationship” and how she felt that we were an unhappy/unstable couple and that the presence of these four horsemen (that she saw in our relationship) could reliably be used as indicators with 94% accuracy that the couple would end in divorce within the next 5 years. She also mentioned how she’d seen contempt on my WW’s face more than a few times during the sessions. When asked if the criticism was a two-way street I told her that no, I didn’t engage in an active criticism campaign like she was describing…I tended to engage in sniping, looking for opportunities where I could say something that would embarrass my WW or put her in an awkward spot. The MC agreed with me as I explained that it was unfair that I used things said in confidence like that. She continued, shaking her head, “Why would you do something like that?” I had to explain that it wasn’t calculated, things just tumbled out sometimes…I expect that I was just trying to even the score for the constant criticism.
Next I brought up household chores and keeping the clutter under control. On these it turns out she and her husband have had the exact same fight…the MC was on the side of my WW. Just because someone works from home doesn’t mean that they should necessarily be expected to do more. When she has had husbands complaining about the same thing they usually find that, hey, maybe I don’t DO ENOUGH in actuality! She said that me picking up the clutter was a boundary issue…it wasn’t my stuff, so what right did I have to touch it? What does it matter if the stuff is all over? I explained that my wife cover’s half of the table we eat at with her crap (that doesn’t ever move), leaving three spaces open (sometimes two and I have to clean my space off to sit down). When her brother-in-law came over to have dinner, he took my seat. I had to unbury a fourth space in order to sit down and join the family…all while they started without me. This was again waved off as a boundary issue and suggested that I was overreacting to a few pieces of paper on a table.
She finally announced that we only had three minutes left and needed to start wrapping up. I rolled out “understand that we demonstrate and receive affection in different ways. Asking for what we need shouldn’t diminish its value.” The MC asked my WW if she knew what I was talking about…my WW responded that she hadn’t read whatever book I was reciting from. The MC commented that she saw quite a bit of contempt coming from my WW. She responded, “I’m not the one trying to psycho-babble with the marriage counselor.” At this the MC proceeded to explain in great detail what I’d been referencing. She did so much damage towards making ground on that point in those few minutes her speaking.
When we concluded she told me that everything I’d listed had been issues in marriage, not a real “bottom-line”. She said that it sounded like my WW’s “sexual aversion” was the real issue. Was I willing to stay in a sexless marriage? “Like I told you last session, no.” was my response.
I should have led with transparency, owning her problems in the relationship and the damage her actions have caused, and open/honest communication. Now that I think about it, why the hell am I fighting so hard for a relationship of which I’m the only one who wants to stay a part?
On the upside, we have our first meeting with the divorce mediator next Monday.
