Well, I'm moving over from Infidelity (neighbours are too noisy )cuz tossing in the towel is becoming a frequent thought these days. For any of you lucky enough to have missed my sitch I'll fill you in as briefly as possible: W and I have been married for 17 years (D9 and D13)and five years ago W began working at higher stress jobs that had an element of isolation within a big institution. She befriended a fellow female worker who became her emotional lifeline. Since that time I have been increasiningly shoved aside. Her gf helped convince her to go back to school and get an graduate degree (while holding on to her ft job) and I supported her in doing so. But this increased the stress and depression she felt (she went on AD's but stopped). Three years ago she told me that she didn't know how she felt about me anymore, two years ago she told me she didn't love me anymore, one year ago (to this day!) she told me she was having a R with, you guessed it, her girlfriend! She refuses to say she is gay, she claims "it was just something that happened between two people". I discovered DB about two years ago and have been working at improving myself and changing what I can in the R but to no avail. I have become an incredibly happier and fuller person despite all this sh!t because of DB. W wants to stay together and raise the children BUT continue her A. I have told her that is not acceptable and I will not continue like this for much longer. Recently, I saw a Solution Focused Counsellor re my sitch and she suggested W come with me if possible. I suggested this to W and was told to basically blow off! I don't think it's going to happen, she said "if you want to leave, then leave". She's got her cake and is eating it too. What holds me is my two beautiful D's who we have been able to raise into two remarkably well adjusted kids, considering! The SF counsellor also pointed out the amazing job I have done in changing myself and working on the R. Now, I am at a point where I don't see anything that will change as long as I am here BUT I also can't stand the thought of tearing my D's world's apart either. Yes, what W did (and is doing) was selfish but if I leave am I doing nothing but the same? Am I too saying ME ME ME!Yet I'm getting damn tired of being furniture in my own home too. Any thoughts out there in DB land?
whatisis, welcome and sorry you are here. get the DB and DR and the Sexless marriage books and read like a madman. So, you two are still living together? Was sex a problem too then?
Me 31 WAH 30 M 5 Together 14 years S 4 divorced 7/11/07
Wow...all I have got to say is you are one hell of a good man....and no matter what happens your girls will know the quality of father they had....my hat goes off to you to hang in there this long...
I will keep you in my thoughts that you find the answers you are seeking....I can't imagine living in the situation you are...and I totally agree that you probably won't be able to do it forever...
One can only hope that in all of this someday your wife wakes up and realizes that the relationship she is having is lesbian...I don't know how else it can be described...."just two people"...come on....that is DENIAL big time!
My best to you....and your beautiful wonderful girls!
Thanks for checking me out, Rosie! Sex was an issue in the sense that she felt I didn't put enough romance into it. I worked at trying to be more romantic, to no avail. But as far as the act itself, she was quite into it! I believe A with OW is basically an EA, it's two needy people who plugged into each others needy spots. W needed to be the wounded bird and OW needed to care for a wounded bird. Their R is pretty onesided and therefore sick, if you ask me. OW caters to W's every whim and need and puts no demands on her at all. In our brief discussions re this new R that is what W has told me. I told her they were a "pair of f'ing sick bitches" (not one of my better days!). They seem to have no real opportunity for a sexual R as OW lives with "mommy and daddy" and that's where they spend much of their time! They go away maybe twice a year for a weekend (and what they do, I don't want to know). W has always been a "why can't you read my mind" kind of person and she claims OW actually can "read her mind". I told her I wasn't a mindreader, sometimes I would know what she needs but other times I wouldn't and will have to be told. That wasn't good enough.
The reason OW can read her mind is because she is WOMAN...men don't think like women....and for a very good reason....you wife needs to learn to communicate!!!...but that is her issue and one she will have to face someday....I am sure of that!
Thanks UL and imLIN, W says she is staying for the girls. She sees herself as some kind of martyr because she is giving up time she'd like to be with OW to be with the family. She sees OP only once or twice per week and usually after the kids have gone to bed. How she suffers! have there been any positives in the M? Hell yes, many but they don't ever seem to result in any changes! After a sexless year, in August we had sex! She had been away with the girls and upon return I gave it a go and it happened. Why, who knows. Since then, nothing and I don't try anymore. I don't want to come across as needy and pathetic. We go to ballroom dance lessons each week together, at my suggestion. I thought having to work together on something (especially something she loved) might bring some connection (and if not, I would have a new skill to use with other women )We never miss a lesson and she even suggested we sign up for the next session! At home, I'm pretty much furniture, she has no interest in me as a man or a person. That's not to say that at times she is not considerate and caring she is but it's not the norm. Hell, she's even planning family vacations for next Christmas! My SF counsellor says W needs to start looking at what she wants for the future and how she's going to get there. Right now she's only bulling her way through each day. She refuses to look further than that, she said "why do we always have to know where we are going?". This from the woman that practically schedules her bathroom visits! Well, I hope this rambling was of some use.
imLIN, my W says she doesn't buy all that "men are different than women" stuff she says it's just an excuse for men! Therefore my inability to mindread is due to my own deficiency versus reality. That idea works out well for her and her A, doesn't it. OW is a goddess who can do no wrong, the wrong stuff is my job!
Something I've really come to understand since all this happened is that you will never get everything you need emotionally from your H/W because of the gender differences. I need my female friends to hang out and talk crap and analyse everything to death. My R with my H gave me different things. And that's ok. That's healthy. People who look for their partner to be everything to them are never going to be satisfied. They'll end up like my H, blundering around looking for his 'soul-mate'.
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him discover it in himself. Galileo Galilei
I thought I might let people know what GAL activities I have done. Just a little more info for those who are interested! joined a church started to run (up to 5 miles now) aerobics class Yoga class BR dance with W Chinese cooking (can cook 50 dishes now) University courses Reading and writing poetry became vegetarian (just over one year now!) Oh, lost 45 lbs!
For the R began planning weekend activities for family ( W said I never planned anything so I started) became more romantic (W said "stop doing that, you only do it because you think I'll like it!") Began listening better (no more "fixing" just listening and validating) suggested BR dance class tried being more assertive with her (made no dif) continued being caring and supportive despite the pain I still ask her out to movies, lunches etc usually with success (frequently I hear "I was going to ask you")
So that's the list off the top of my head! There's probably more back there somewhere.
flip, I'd like to get my hands around the neck of whoever came up with this friggin "soulmate" idea! As far as talking things to death with your girlfriends, I was thrilled for W when she found this new friend. At last she had someone else to confide in. Partially, I was happy cuz I didn't have to listen to it anymore every night. BUT mainy I was so happy she had a close friend. I had been her only confidente up until then. It's sad, it turned into this.
At the weekend I was chatting to a really good friend I've made since the bomb. She was dumped by her fiance about the same time H left me, so we have a lot to talk about! Anyway, her sitch is that she and her fiance had moved about 200 miles to a new city. While she made loads of new friends (she is very gregarious and great fun to be around), he only made one - 'Donna'.
So, the inevitable happened - he left her for Donna. He would say things like, "Donna and I have so much in common". Her response was, "How would you know? What are you measuring it against?!" If you've only got one friend, how can you tell how great and 'unique' that friend is?
My H left me because it turned out I wasn't his 'soulmate'. Funny, I was just 18 months earlier. Whether the OW is supposed to be his soulmate or just a distraction, I don't know.
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him discover it in himself. Galileo Galilei
flip, I was just reading about how women connect versus how men do. Women tend to be attracted to each others vulnerablity, they sense it and attend to it. They form connections through talking about their vulnerability, men don't. Men want to hide away from vulnerability, it's shameful to us. If our W's are telling us about their vulnerability then it means we, as men, have not done our jobs to protect therefore we feel shame. We protect ourselves by correcting, fixing, shutting down, fighting with S etc. Ithink this may be why we are so into fixing the problem, to protect our own masculinity versus caring for our partners needs which is often just to verbalize. I wonder how "Donna" played into this? I'm reading How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About it" by patricia love and steven stosny, quite a provocative read! I keep seeing myself, my W and our R on every page. That frieks me a little!!!
Whatis; Just checking in, I just had this convo this PM. Soulmate. I don't discount the concept of soulmate, I just don't believe there is a one and only.
Soulmate status is an achievable goal in every marriage for those who are willing to do the hard work to make it reality, unfortunately I only now recognize the hard work part of the equation.
I used to believe I was married to my soulmate, now I realize I have alot more work to do until I am.
As far as the one true love you were predestined to be with for the rest of your life, maybe, but only God knows the answer to that one.
81388 Me 43, waw 44, 3 kids(D15,D12,S6)Married 19yr, together 27yr. Bomb 11/27/06, Separated 3/1/07 Divorce filed 4/18/07,
"Because it is in giving that we receive; In forgiving that we obtain forgiveness; In dying that we rise to eternal life" St. Francis
Whatisis - I can't believe you are still hanging in there - I would have thrown her out a long, long time ago.
As for the kids - please....... you are an awesome dad - that's all they care about. Having a dad that would be a lot happier without the boat anchor around his neck would be even better. So, take it from someone that was worried about what it would do to the kids (in my first marriage - ya, when will I get it right eh?). I worried about them for the longest time, interesting thing about it is, they sprung back a heck of a lot quicker than I did and they are now very well adjusted young ladies.
Do it !!!! Your W is being so selfish and I can't imagine doing that to my children. She needs to make a choice
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
Heywyre, What has kept me going, aside from GAL, is always feeling there was some hope, even just a bit! I had hoped that when her school ended there would be less stress and room for a little more thought, it didn't happen. She'd asked her boss for a workload reduction (which was a monumental request for my W) as she could not continue "like this", again, I had hope, it made no difference. I had hoped that the dance lessons together would create some bond, it hasn't happened. After ML in the summer, I thought there was hope, nope! I hoped letting this thing play itself out might work, it's been a year for the A and no change. I know some on this BB have said I must detach fully and give up hope. Well, I don't see hope anymore but I'm not sure I have detached either. I still care what she does! It affects me. The kids keep me going though (no actually I keep myself going!), seeing them every day and being a consistent part of their lives is priceless. How do you give that up for pt parenting because your W is off in la la land? I know it's possible but it seems overwhelming to me right now! Thanks for dropping by. BTW how do you kick someone out who doesn't want to go?
I am cuious to see any answers to your last question.
I am WAY too early in this to make comparisons to you, you are a rock dude, but I can see it going that way for me. Nothing seems to break the log jam.
As with most stuborn log jams, dynamite may be the answer. I don't know for sure, but it does seem like total detachment and the acknowledgement that you/I not only support their new life but demand it, could possibly be the TNT to our log jams.
81388 Me 43, waw 44, 3 kids(D15,D12,S6)Married 19yr, together 27yr. Bomb 11/27/06, Separated 3/1/07 Divorce filed 4/18/07,
"Because it is in giving that we receive; In forgiving that we obtain forgiveness; In dying that we rise to eternal life" St. Francis
whatisis, thanks for the recap. I coposted with you a little bit on ChrisW in the I Need Support forum and I thought you were always pretty grounded in where you were headed from what you told him. I didn't follow your ride though, so it surprised me to see you in this forum. Not making any judgement, we all reach a point where it is time to shake the tree and see where we fall.
My question to you - what picture do you have of your life if you split with your W vs the current picture you have? Which view do you like better? If you like the picture without W, then the way to kick her if she won't leave is to pack her bags and leave them on the front steps, and change the door locks. Have you read Love Must Be Tough? It might help fortify your feelings whatever direction you take.
I moved to Hopefulness. I've looked at the pictures of my life with and without H, and I still want the photo album to include him. It's tough though, I don't wish this type of life on anyone, well except maybe one OW....
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Hi WCW, thanks for dropping by. I can't imagine putting her things on the curb and changing the locks! If we split, I want it done in a way that preserves what is left of our family. I can't traumatize the children through such actions no matter how justified! You ask a good question, how do I picture myself if I split with my W. I have many dark and dreary pictures in my head which are not necessarily reality based. I see myself in some little basement apartment, with no money, no love and just waiting for my kids to visit! That picture is slowly changing to a more optimistic one. Yet, it is hard to imagine a picture of me sitting in this situation for years to come either. I have been patient and kind, I have done what I can do and think maybe it's time to bite the bullet and move on with life. I've lived with the open rejection for three years and the two previous weren't much better. But, hey, I loved her and still do. But I don't know where the person I love has gone. I just don't know anymore! Maybe the time has come. P.S. I hope Chris W is doing well and that's why we don't hear from him. It was looking positive at the end!
Well, just got back from BR Dance class. Let the W have it tonight! I'd had enough of her sh!tty tone and told her so. I also said "I'm a human being and I do have feelings, you know!" Her comeback was a witty "I'm a human being too" Wow! Drove me into the ground, I'll tell you She hasn't spoken to me since. This all happened on the dance floor surrounded by other couples who I believe were too involved in their own floundering around to pay any attention to us. It's the typical crap between us, I'm slowing her down and getting in her way. My mistakes frustrate her although I'm doing pretty damn well in my own eyes. In fact, I'd say we're one of the better couples on the floor! This woman cannot have fun, it's just not in her anymore. Oh well, I wish I had of have handled it a little differently but such is life. I stood up for myself and that feels pretty darn good. Tonight I didn't take her crap. I'll live with the silent treatment, it will feel like a vacation!!!
Just a quick clarification on my last post. It may have sounded as though I was vulgar with my W, I was not. What I told her was that I was tired of her tone and the frustration in her voice whenever she corrected me. I then told her that I was a human being and had feelings too. I sounded rather angry,which is what I would have done differently. BTW she is now speaking to me again but did tell D9 she was sleeping in the basement tonight. Be my guest!
Made me chuckle, I let loose a couple months ago. Didn't seem like the right thing to do, but I sure felt better.
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It's the typical crap between us, I'm slowing her down and getting in her way.
Um, you were talking about the dancing stuff, right? H told me that but we weren't dancing! Do you think your W really can't have fun? or is it the dynamics between you that prevent her?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
WCW, The interesting thing about these dance lessons is that they have become a microcosm of our marriage! Everything that goes on in our R comes out while trying to work together on the dancefloor. I thought we'd bond!!!! W has no patience for anyone who is slower than herself, she's told me this. She wants to master the steps to the dance and I'm slowing her down, she resents it! She is not interested in helping me learn or building something on the floor together, she wants what she wants and she wants it now! Don't get in her way. I know this is fact, many things I wouldn't declare knowing but this, I do. So even though she has a partner who has never danced in his life and is working his butt off and learning pretty darn well, it's not enough. This is just like our M. Anyone who knows me and our M recognizes that I've worked my butt off to support her in whatever she has chosen to do. I do cooking, childcare, bill paying, kids appointments, repairs and almost everything but the laundry because she works longer hours and has more demands at work. No complaints from me! I used to listen for hours to her (not always in the best way, I admit!) problems and complaints. When she had issues with me, I've tried to do something about them. But it was always about me, never anything to do with her. YOU change and all will be well. Help you change? I don't think so! If you can't do on your own then it's just not in you. This is what I've lived with. At one point she was very angry because all her co-workers were telling her how lucky she was to have a H "who cooks, picks up the kids and makes your lunch in the morning". Her comments to me were "Oh, I suppose I'm supposed to be grateful because I have a H who actually does something around here" I said "Hey, if it bothers you, I'll stop". So ME focused and unable/unwilling to get beyond it, it's so sad. No recognition of the good, just a constant reminder of what is missing or poorly done. Kind of like the dancefloor, isn't it. How much is her depression, which is usually in full bloom during the winter months (and explains why I try to have a longer fuse during those months) which she refuses to get any help for. Her OW is her anti-depressant and she uses her like a drug. I'm just a bad trip! Can she have fun? Rarely! She admits it "I don't know how to have fun". OW had this as one of her goals for my W, to teach her how to have fun. Yes, having an affair and tearing your family apart is a good start at having fun, wouldn't you say. Well, enough of my rambling for this evening and, btw, she is sleeping in our bed tonight. She must have gotten over that temptation to sleep in the basement. Should I be happy?
Whatisis, I'm sorry you're here but, shoot, you've stayed the course longer than most of us in your shoes would have. You deserve a parade thrown for you!
8, I love this perspective, and I'm saving it to perhaps use on my blog at some point (credited to some anonymous wise person!). It's perfect.
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Soulmate status is an achievable goal in every marriage for those who are willing to do the hard work to make it reality, unfortunately I only now recognize the hard work part of the equation.
I used to believe I was married to my soulmate, now I realize I have alot more work to do until I am.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
Thanks BI! Last night Whatis almost lost it. W's habit of late is to put the kids to bed, go to our room, read work related articles and talk to OW on the phone in bed. I came up late and there she was lying in bed talking with OW, she then got up and left the room. I started fuming and I almost said "Why doesn't she just move in, she seems to be in our bedroom most nights anyway". I didn't. I went to bed but got angrier. I was on the verge of telling her to start thinking about our future because in one month if she is still in this R with OW then she's on the sidewalk! Again, I didn't. I have learned NOT to act when I'm feeling so emotional. BUT, this is the issue. How many more days...months...years am I going to have to fight off pain and anger just to survive in my own home? This is not a life! W seems to be addicted to intensity, she seems to live it at work, at home and in her R's. When stress seems to be less, she creates more. I certainly feel I'm being pushed away and shut out but, hey, big surprise eh! Any connection I've tried to make is stomped on. Do I just say "to hell with it" and move into the basement? How are we supposed to live like this? My God, it's NUTS!!!!! Oh, and did I mention OW keeps W fully supplied with "work articles" and keeps W fully exhausted by talking till late at night. Her big ticket is keeping W fully caught up in this intensity cycle. Yes, this keeps my W dependent on her for her little rays of sunshine and expertise. F@cking b!tch, I feel like going over to her house and outing her in front of all her neighbours. Maybe a little visit to her workplace...OK, I know...breathe!!!
If you are as fed up as you sound when you write, you need to set boundaries, enforce them, and be ready for the consequences.
If you are not ready to issue and enforce, then change your focus to something other than W, OW, negatives. What is okay in your life? what do you like? are you enjoying time with the kids? Shift your focus to what makes you happy and then do more of that. Easy, right?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
UA, you just wrote "I don't know how you do it?" I'll now tell you because I've just read about exactly what it is that I do. I'm reading " How to improve your marriage without talking about it" and I opened the book to where I'd left off and bang! there it was, Emotional Transformation. The authors advise "when you feel like giving up, you can transform that troublesome emotion by making a small improvement; when you feel like casting blame, redirect to some form of appreciation; when you feel like withdrawing, redirect toward connecting; or when you feel like attacking, redirect to protection". This is actually how I do stay sane! For example, this morning, after leaving home in an ugly mood, dumping on this BB, and brooding about how I'd like to verbally give it to my W...I stopped and picked up the phone, and called to see if she made it to work OK (weather was very bad this morning). I left her a message and said "drive home carefully, I'll see you tonight" I felt like attacking and redirected that emotion to protecting. I transformed my emotion. Often when I'm in this kind of mood I stop and think about what she must be feeling right now, the anxiety, the fear, the lonliness etc. It helps me get past myself and my exaggerated thoughts. I also started to think about the ways she has tried to connect with me recently, not just the ways she's shoved me away which I am very quick to point out here. Yesterday, she emailed me something she thought might be helpful in my work, that was nice. When she calls out "drive safely", that's caring. When she brought me a dessert on Tuesday night (after our little skirmish at dance class), that was nice. All those were small but connecting events. They are little things but they must be acknowledged too. So, UA this is exactly how I do it! It's funny to see it in black and white at the same time I am experiencing it, but what is is! I hope these thoughts help somebody else out there. Take care.
see like right now, I can tell H is having a bad day - thinking about "things"
How should I redirect? I had TM him saying "I miss you" - his reply was "I am sorry" so I don't really know how to respond - or if I even should...ya know?
....Understand, that I can't, not be what I am I'm not the milk, and Cheerios in your spoon ~ Avril Lavigne ~ ..."Nobody's Fool"...
UA, when you TM "I miss you" it says to him that he has failed you again cuz he's not with you and therefore making you unhappy. He's supposed to make you happy not lonely! So in his male mind you just unintentionally stimulated his "shame" reflex. He's let you down AGAIN therefore he is "sorry"! Maybe just a "have a great day, see you tonight" or something like that would suffice. I'm not familiar enough with your sitch yet to advise otherwise. Take care.
well normally when I TM him that, he will reply with me too or something....I think this is a bad day for him so I'm going to let him stew in it I guess .... I don't know
....Understand, that I can't, not be what I am I'm not the milk, and Cheerios in your spoon ~ Avril Lavigne ~ ..."Nobody's Fool"...
Whatisis, nice job on refocusing, redirecting. You get to put a gold star behind your name! (did you do that before you read my quality advice saying the same thing? insert breaking my arm patting myself on the back)
UA, if I remember some of your sitch you got blasted pretty hard for constantly texting to your H. You're still doing it? what's changed to make it a 'positive' to be texting 'I miss you' to him now?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
WCW, somehow I missed your advise, but I've gone back and read it now! Thanks. I'm really at a point where I have to look and say "Let's sit down and decide where we're going" I did suggest counselling to help us look at the future but she refused. Maybe I need to sit her down and say "sh!t or get off the pot". Give her a time limit (boundary) to decide between me and OW and then follow it. If she chooses OW then we work together to dissolve our situation as amiciably as possible with full attention to the kids. End of story! If she chooses to work on us, then I'm there for it. My boundary will be, make a choice or I will do so for us. I have told her that I will not continue this endlessly, so maybe she needs an alarm clock to be set. It's either that or I suck it up, let go and concentrate on me and the kids and that is that. I'm leaning to setting the time limit!
UA, just to conclude my earlier thought, when he replied "I'm sorry" that created anxiety for you! You start wondering, what is he thinking? How will it affect me? what if...you ned to re-focus your attention to something else. Remember, just because he's having a bad day it doesn't necessarily involve you. That's hard when we become hyper-sensitive to any word or action of our partner (God knows, I'm trying to learn this myself). If he's having a bad day, then you have a good one! Moods rub off on each other, especially partners. Don't let his bad mood transform yours. That will help him the most. When he gets home, serve him a coffee, give him his newspaper and a little alone time, give him a loving hug or a touch on the arm. Those are connecting things! Good luck.
UA, sorry about the advice being a little off track (although the anxiety thing still stands!). I'm a little self involved these days, it's how I bond with my W now, it's good to have something in common with her Thanks for checking in on me!
WCW was right, one must have to be able to emotionally handle the end before invoking it. I feel myself growing closer to it emotionally, not closing doors on any turn arounds, but not as frazzled by thinking about the end. The other perspective is that the end is not always the end, it is another place to DB from. I'm in a better place tonight. When I think about it, who is in a better place, me or that OW b!tch? I live with my W, I share two beautiful children with her, I can show caring and love anytime I choose, I don't have to run my life trying to read her mind and service her slightest whim. Who goes dancing with his W weekly? NOT HER! I'm not the one sitting alone in my parents basement waiting for a phone call. Who's better off, I ask? ...Oh hell, maybe I'll go to her workplace and out her anyway. I'll call it a new GAL activity .
Shared a work situation with W tonight, I haven't done that in ages. I stopped because she wasn't interested and made that very clear. I thought I'd try again, see where it went. She actually opened things by telling me about someone we both used to work with who has found a new job. I shared a difficult situation I was dealing with that involved a manager and a fellow worker. She began with a verbal attack on unionized environments (not that she manages in one!) and I let that go (she knows I am very committed to my union, and in fact gave up a union position when she went back to school). What I find interesting during this, and I've noticed it before, is that she can't let go of being the "manager" for a minute. Firstly, it wasn't a union versus management issue, it was a human relations issue which I got stuck in the middle of. But whenever a work situation arises and I share it she goes right into "manager" mode. She defends the management person or spells out the management persons possible feelings or motives etc. She can't be just a person. In this discussion she went right to all the practical steps that could be taken blah blah blah! Now, I did thank her for the ideas but in hindsight it would have been nice to hear "Wow, that must have been pretty hard for you to be in the middle of all that" NOPE. There was no connecting with my feelings on this although I expressed them. It's all the Manager. Now, I am happy that we at least exchanged some conversation, she didn't shut me out like in the past, she gave me some practical info (OK, I'm a guy and I'm OK with it!) but it was all so impersonal, fact centred, problem fixing! Geez, she could be a guy! I should love this woman Later she grabbed her work stuff but rather than heading upstairs she sat down in the dining room, which is visually adjacent to the living room where I was. Did that connection make that happen? I dunno but I better get back there and enjoy it. Later DBers.
1210, This is so strange, I was just thinking of you this morning. Wow! Yes, I did take the basic Solution Focused class, this is a second module around family and couples counselling. Today we analyzed the Banks family from Mary Poppins...honest!
Thank you, I love it when someone feeds my ego. PMA up!!!
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one must have to be able to emotionally handle the end before invoking it. I feel myself growing closer to it emotionally, not closing doors on any turn arounds, but not as frazzled by thinking about the end. The other perspective is that the end is not always the end, it is another place to DB from.
whatisis, you've been here a long time too. Emotions go up and down and change back and forth. Overall, since you joined this BB all those months ago, what's been your feeling the majority of the time? How much has changed? how much have you 'let go'? Are there positives? are you focusing on them?
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I'm in a better place tonight. When I think about it, who is in a better place, me or that OW b!tch? I live with my W, I share two beautiful children with her, I can show caring and love anytime I choose, I don't have to run my life trying to read her mind and service her slightest whim. Who goes dancing with his W weekly? NOT HER! I'm not the one sitting alone in my parents basement waiting for a phone call. Who's better off, I ask?
Good, good, good. Keep the focus.
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Oh hell, maybe I'll go to her workplace and out her anyway. I'll call it a new GAL activity
Um, probably not a good idea based on my own experiences. But sometimes it just feels so damm good to let them know they're not getting away with what they think they are. But if you're looking for a new GAL activity, pop in on my thread in Hopefulness, not a lot of traffic there that inputs/feedbacks.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
WCW, one idea that my class sparked today was to ask what is it that is working in my R right now? How is it that my W and I are able to maintain our family unit in the pretty darn stable fashion we are? What are we doing right? When are we at our best together? These are our strengths as a couple. Despite all this sh!t we are still showing alot of strengths. Imagine what we could do if we actually built on those! Wow. There must be a Hell of alot of good stuff here otherwise we could be at each others throats continually, or totally isolated from each other or doing any number of really bad things, but we aren't. What are we doing to keep it together? Good questions to ponder. So your thoughts fit right into that mode of thinking. I must amplify the good, build on the strengths, keep doing what's working, stop doing what's not and do something different. Tonight, I asked W how her work function went today and we talked briefly about it. That is now two days in a row we have connected in this way. Afterwards, she offered to drive D to dance class for me and offered to cook me a simple meal. Small things but, again, connecting events. Thanks for your input, oh I almost forgot, WCW IS RIGHT! P.S. outing the OW at her workplace was just humour...but running her down in my car...just kidding!!!!
I thought I'd pass on an interesting tidbit from my course yesterday. Apparently 2/3 of couples who come for counselling due to an A, stay together. So, I take from that, if you can get S to go for counselling your odds get better. Something to ponder.
Whatis, Do you think it is worth bringing up counciling, she has been against it every time I have tried, but I have not asked for quite awhile. It seems like asking now would be the opposite of validating. She has not said or done anything directly that could be interpreted as a change of position re: the D.
Your W has been the same way, hasn't she? No to all C attempts?
81388 Me 43, waw 44, 3 kids(D15,D12,S6)Married 19yr, together 27yr. Bomb 11/27/06, Separated 3/1/07 Divorce filed 4/18/07,
"Because it is in giving that we receive; In forgiving that we obtain forgiveness; In dying that we rise to eternal life" St. Francis
8, firstly, you would have to find a MC who would be willing to work with you as a couple. Often MC's won't unless both parties are committed to working on the M. Secondly, what would the goal be? Your W doesn't want to because she figures you and the MC will gang up on her, so she doesn't want to do it! My W said "all that will come out of it is that I'm to blame and have alot of issues to work out, well, I already know that". The Solution Focused Counsellor I saw thought it would be appropriate to bring my W in to get her thinking about what she wants for the future, what kind of family, marriage etc. She felt that it would be important to get my W to start thinking beyond today. It would help to get an idea of what we want instead of this situation, be it together or apart, that might help move this forward. She said she's seen amazing things happen when a couple come in together. So I would be careful and thoughtful in how you approach your W because if its the same old same old, she won't be buying. Maybe try telling her that for her families sake it would be a good idea for you both to go and think through what the future holds. Solution Focused Counsellors do not dwell in the past or bother with blame but try to help you both envision a future and what it will take to get there. So if you can sell it in a different way, maybe it will fly. Again, it didn't work for me but that's my sitch. Oh, and if she doesn't want to go, then you go!
Whatis, w/ the right MC and the right story, I am looking at a big fat maybe, but I think it is worth a try. I will start looking for solution focused. I think if she saw that it had nothing to do with blame or what happened in the past, she might think about it. That was my wishful thinking, she has given no indication that she would give it a second's thought.
I think you are right about their reaction, all that will happen is she will get blamed and everyone will gang up on her. Our one and only session resulted in her saying she felt attacked. Interestingly enough that was a councilor our pastor highly reccommended, and was the one who mentioned DB. Unfortunately she approached us as though our marriage needed a tune-up, not falling from the sky in flames.
81388 Me 43, waw 44, 3 kids(D15,D12,S6)Married 19yr, together 27yr. Bomb 11/27/06, Separated 3/1/07 Divorce filed 4/18/07,
"Because it is in giving that we receive; In forgiving that we obtain forgiveness; In dying that we rise to eternal life" St. Francis
My options: 1) suck it up and carry on until either she leaves, her R ends or one of us dies (of natural causes)! 2) Give up on M and stay just for the kids. Live with her as a roomate I'm raising chidren with 3) Give her time, say 2 months, to decide whether she wants to work on US or wants the other R. If she chooses other R we separate and work our an amicable settlement 4) Tell her I want her out! 5) I don't give time to decide but tell her I've had enough, I am leaving and ask when she wants to sell the house! If she wants me to stay she can bring it to the table. Any others anyone can suggest? Oh, I forgot the last resort technique, but I'm not sure how workable that is with children in the home?
...ummmmmmmm, ummmmmmmmm, ummmmmmmmmmm...tick, tick, tick, tick, ummmmmmmmm, ummmmmmmmmm, okay, okay...I'll pick door number one!!
Let the OP, die from neglect...you be the strong one. Either the wife will tire from the OP, or maybe the OP will move on. Wait it out....maybe charge her rent? Just kidding.
You have the fortitude and intelligence to weather this storm. Treat her like a client/patient, you know what to do...
Thanks 1210, I'm tempted to give it a little more time mainly because I recently came across an email from OW (yes, I opened it!) and it read "take as long as you need. If you want to talk, call me. I'm always here" Ya, cuz she has no other life! W has been in full work mode lately, reading endlessly journal articles on work etc. which tells me she's trying to shut something down within herself. It might be good for me somehow! Is it decision time? or am I just off in la la land cuz I can't seem to leave the bitch Great to hear from you 1210, hope you are doing well.
Hey, more power to you for finding the message. Hmmm...it does seem to smack of the OP being a tad neglected...that could be a big plus for you. Look at it this way...OP really doesn't have much to offer...you have a family, with two little girls that are very into their projects and school, everyday seems unlike the last, there's always something happening.
OP can offer compassion, empathy, concern, care,...yada, yada, yada...so can you. OP lives with her parents, boring. She has one facet to her, you have three...which one will become the boring one...OP.
You can beat OP any day of the week...it probably will take a while, but heck, you have been there and done that...it's only time and a family. The cards are in your hands...OP folds.
I'm doing great thank you...trying to get Sol back on track...
Thanks again! I didn't mention BR Dance tonight. Well, I made a point of preparing myself NOT to respond to her irritated tone. I decided before hand NOT to allow it to affect my evening at class. The funny thing is that when I look around the room half the couples are standing there looking at each other, while we're actually dancing! We're doing pretty well, unfortunately all she sees (or comments on at least) is what I'm doing wrong. At break I asked her to show me certain steps and we tried to figure how I coud improve them. All went well and she seemed to be trying to sound less pissy, all I ask is that she try! Just four more classes and I'll be free to screw up whenever I please
1210, W never eases up at work! She will find something there to keep herself busy, busy, busy! If she wasn't busy she might have to actually think about her life. As for further dance classes, there arent' anymore until the Spring, I can use the break from her anyway! No new recipes to speak of, but I've asked for a new Chinese cookbook for my birthday, I need some more kitchen challenges. Take care, Number lady!
1210, the big day is Friday. But actually the big day is everyday if we live it properly! I was reading an interesting tidbit on courtesy today. Courtesy is basically making a connection. Wow, that is simple but pretty deep. It explains to me why my W lacks it so often. She is avoiding making meaningful connections with me on any level. Sometimes, of course, we do connect but much of the time her energy seems to be directed to avoiding connection or making that connection negative e.g. dance class. It really must be exhausting to expend so much energy in trying not to let something happen! Oh well, to each his own. By understanding this as a possibility it may make her rejections a little easier to handle. It is not her wanting to be mean and hurtful, it is her attempting to avoid something. That makes a difference. I sometimes find it difficult not to personalize these kind of slights and not to allow them to salt the wound. I guess it's all in the way we choose to look at things. Gosh, we're bizarre creatures, aren't we! So, I thought I would just share that little flash of brilliance with others tonight.
WooooooooooooooooooHoooooooooooooooooooo Another Birthday!!!! Yeah!!!!. Well Happy Early Birthday Wish!!!! Any plans? What does your wife do to celebrate?
Very deep indeed. Just as I don't think that she is in an A, but actually an EA, I believe you, it's not done to hurt you. What do you think that she is avoiding?...besides you...why? Has she exhibited this type of behavior before the OP entered the whole picture? Or, only after OP came aboard? It sounds like a trust issue. She seems not to trust anyone other than herself.
Interesting point, 1210. She either pours all her trust into one person or no one. I used to be that person, now it's the OP. I think what she is doing by avoiding connection with me is keeping the fantasy of exclusivity with OP alive. If we connect and enjoy that connection, well, that can create doubt re the connection with OP. She might have to think about what she's doing. That is to be avoided at all costs. So therefore I am boring, monotonous, annoying, not able to change , AKA furniture etc. It keeps her world nicely compartmentalized, doesn't it. Whatis bad, OP good. Easy! Now, she just asked me whether I would like to go out Friday night (as a family, of course) to celebrate. She will miss her dance class and pick up D9 early from training. I said I would like that. I knew she'd do something cuz it's a family occassion. Hey, maybe she even likes me a bit? Who knows! Do you think I could score some sex out of this? Naw, a wet dream ,maybe! Happy birthday to me. Oh yes, and most definately it is an EA, if it's a PA the only place they could be doing it is in my car...OH MY GOD!
I've racked my brain tonight...not good, but...the only answer that keeps repeating back to me is the cultural issue. The closeness to OP just reeks of pure cultural ties, that's it. Her time is tied to a bond they share...unfortunately, you are a Canadian, unless you were able to change your ethnicity.
I don't mean that in a bad way, but you are in a different type of sociological background. Now - how do you break that bond between them? It seems like they are long-lost sisters...
1210, Certainly there is a cultural bond but there is also a commonality in their jobs, both are managers in the same field (different target populations, though). When W and I first married, we were both doing the same job but in different sections of the agency. She said I was her Husband, best friend and Supervisor! Now, OW is those things. W also came to this country to get away from the driving high expectations that were part of life in her country, but now she works for a cultural agency where she is surrounded by this mentality again. It's hard not to let it affect the way you work and live. So, OW (who also works for a cultural agency) and W have many commonalities. W went for the graduate degree that OW had just completed, so guess who could help her with that too! Somehow, I got left behind in it all.
Thanks UA, it really is good to know people are thinking of me! W just had D13 call me to say they were out shopping and would be home a little late. It is a raging snowstorm here and W decides it makes sense to take the kids out in it to buy me a birthday present! I told D to tell mom that I would prefer them to stay at home because the best present they could give me is to know they are all at home safe. W didn't buy it! You know, her determination was one of the things that made me love her, it's also one of the things that drives me nuts! I know she's a good driver but why take the risk? For a DVD holder or something? Oh well, I know they'll be fine.
That is really nice that your wife is out looking for a gift for you in that kind of weather. Heavens, there are a lot of people here that their spouses don't even recognize the birthdays. She even mentioned going to dinner Friday night - that is great!!!
DVD holder? Surely you jest? Lol...
Let me run this across for thought: What would be your wife's reaction if you became friends with OP? Seriously, in like having her over for dinner, one night - going somewhere as a threesome. Would allowing her (OP), to be a friend of the family, lessen the exclusitivity of the bond between her and your wife? That way you are included and she doesn't seem to be "all that". It would seem that you are standing by your wife, the same time the interaction of OP and wife are having their friendship. Could it be that because you won't recognize OP to be her friend, that this could be part of the problem? By allowing her into the family, so to speak, her power of the control factor lessens...just an idea to kick out to you.
1210, W has always kept OW away from the family, even when just friends. I used to ask why OW didn't come by and she would tell me that she was shy! In five years I've seen her maybe a handful of times. So your idea is interesting (I'm not going to do it, but it's still interesting)Oh, I think the fact that I once said (post A announcement) that "if I ever see that bitch again I'll rip her heart out and shove it down her f@cking throat" may have left some bad feeling, although I did mean it in only the nicest of ways! yes, it was nice of her to go out and take the girls to do this, I just would have preferred if she hadn't of endangered everyone to do it! Hell, it's only a birthday...it's not like it's a marriage vow or something
Just wanted to swing by and tell you happy birthday brother. Sorry I have not been able to keep up with you but I have been pretty tied up with everything going on in my own sitch.
Anyway I just wanted to say happy b-day... Ben
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
Thanks for all the kind wishes everybody! Gee, the only family member who hasn't wished me a Happy Birthday today is, you guessed it, W! Damn surprising, isn't it! Well, off to drop the kids off at their activities and after pickup we'll all be going to dinner. Thanks again
I just thought I'd add a nice thing that happened today. My co-worker wished me a Happy Birthday and then asked how old I was. I told her 49, and she replied "You can't be! You don't look or act it. You are the most active person I know and always so happy!" Well, I've fooled one person at least But, it is nice to hear such a positive perception of someone who doesn't know what's happening in my private life. Imagine how I'd be presenting if that worked itself out!
Me 35, H 38; Together 13.5 yrs, M 7 Bomb 1 10/07/06 Sep'd 1/14/07 - 4/15 Piecing: 4/07 - 9/07 Bomb 3 10/11/07: Never loved you, let's separate 2/08 slowly improving 7/08 Piecing (7/25/08 rings back on!!) Current thread
Thanks again, folks! We had a nice meal last night at a South Indian Restaurant and then returned home for cake and presents. Nice night. Tonight was another nice night. It started this afternoon when we sat down as a family to discuss finances. Going over our spending and how we could cut back and start a savings program. W actually asked if we could sit down and do this, so I said OK. So, she is now following up on it and that is positive. So, after dinner we all sat down and looked at family pictures. W had been telling us about her parents hard life, comparing their huge struggles to our seeming minor ones. The girls wanted to see pictures of them with their grandfather and it went from there, album after album of our family photos. Later W brought out an album of pictures she's stashed away (another little secret) with different pictures from when she was a child till now. Got some nice snaps of OW in there too. That was somewhat difficult, it's a good thing she's so damn ugly...that made me feel better! I couldn't help but wonder which of these pictures where from when they were just friends and which were the present sitch. I just walked away and she continued showing the girls. She's now gone out to visit her ugliness and I jsut finished tucking in the kids. Damn, I hope looking at those family pictures gives her the guilts big time. How she can keep doing what she's doing is just so beyond me. I wasn't getting much in the way of met needs for years either yet why did I NOT look elsewhere? I don't say this to be patronizing or smug, I just don't understand. I hung in as I promised I would in my vows, she didn't. I just don't understand how we could be so different in that. I guess, whatis is.
Well,I was somewhat emotional this morning, no big deal. I had a little cry on the way to church in the car. I guess just the wonderful family moments we shared the last two days brought up alot of feeling for me. In so many ways we are a wonderful couple with an amazing family, so WHAT THE F#CK HAPPENED! My therapist said that we were a pretty normal couple with pretty normal issues until OW showed up and that's when it all went to Hell. It's hard to recognize what was indeed ME and what was outside of my control. Yes, there was more I could have done to be a better H, but I did do more than most, believe it or not. How much was my W's internal struggles that I couldn't do a damn thing about. The therapist also said that my W had an extremely emotionally deprived childhood (which is true) and therefore had a great many issues to work out and until she was ready to do so it would be hard to see any change in my sitch. This was my previous therapist, not the SF therapist I saw recently. So once more I ponder, how much do I put up with. W seems completely untouched by yesterday yet I'm crying in the friggin car. She is the master at stuffing feelings away and not dealing with them. This is how she got through a her childhood, stuffing away her feelings and needs in order to be mother to her Mother and take care of her brothers and sisters. Which is also why she resents having to take care of me in any way, shape or form (not that I ever really got much of that). Now, I do not know how yesterday effected her, I am only assuming using my faulty emotional screens here but it seems anger is often the only emotion she shows, and at least that one hasn't made an appearance yet. Again, in my head I was going through how I was going to tell her that this farce is over. A strange response to a nice few days, isn't it. So as usual I will do sweet piss all and carry on. Hooray hooray!
I just thought I'd share some thoughts I have been pondering. I am wondering how much I do (or don't do) in re to my sitch is based in fear. Do I stay and not leave because of: *fear of being alone *fear of losing my family *fear of less time with my children *fear of damaging my children *fear of being financially strapped *fear of never finding another R *fear of having to deal with an angry, hurtful S who wants this R to continue as is
fear is not a good thing to be immersed in. It is a good indicator that something is wrong but a lousy thing to base decisions on. I read somewhere that we need to look at every event in our lives as the best thing that could possibly happen to us at that point in time. How often have we dread and put off certain things only to find out that something wonderful came from it when it actually happened. Have you ever lost a job and then found a better more fulfilling one? If anybody ever asked whether you wanted to lose the first job, you'd say NO! But... I have pictures in my head of a lonely, impoverished man sitting in a dreary basement apartment just waiting for his kids to drop by. Not good pictures but I must ask "are they realistic"? I can't know what will come from any decision I make but it makes as much sense to believe that whatever happens is the best thing that could possibly happen. It's just something that is in my head today. I hope it is of some value to others as well.
How often have we dread and put off certain things only to find out that something wonderful came from it when it actually happened.
This right here is why PMA is everything. As long as you dread your PMA needs work. Dread is created in your mind, of your mind. What you fear isn't what is, it's what you expect. If you expect something to be terrible, horrible, awful, etc, that's when you dread. How often is the actual event in life this extreme? Not often. Things are usually unfortunate, unless we decide to view them as awful. That's when we fight against reality, saying things should not be this way. They can't be this way.
Fear on the other hand is a very functional emotion. It signals you to the fact that there's risk and danger involved. Tells you to be cautious. Basing decisions in the risks that your fear is signalling you to is not bad - they are considerations - however basing them on the fear itself, that's a different story. I think we, especially as men, are conditioned to see fear as weakness, so we have a lot of complex emotions built up around the fear that doesn't allow us to take it for what it really is. Acknowledging and respecting your fear in the moment is healthy, and nothing to be ashamed of. It can even be an act of love (break the love/fear dichotomy - they are not necessarily mutually exclusive). The functional part of this is that in so doing you eliminate the shame from the equation. You can understand what the fear is signalling you to and respond rather than paralizing yourself without truly understanding what it is you're afraid of.
I want to challenge and dispute some of the beliefs these fears are based on. By no means am I implying that your feelings are wrong or bad. I think disputing these beliefs will allow you the opportunity to reevaulate your position in a different light.
Originally Posted By: whatisis
*fear of being alone
We are always alone. Born alone and die alone. However, if we choose to love, choose to intimate and share, we will never be. People are social creatures and WANT to connect. As long as you choose to connect, to seek opportunities and be available, you will NEVER be alone. Look to improve your ability to connect. Make a concerted effort in this department.
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*fear of losing my family
Do you really "have" your family? Is it something you possess? How do you define this? What are the underlying beliefs here? I think it's a more complex issue than it looks like on the surface. Once you've defined "family", think about what you can do to bring this about in your life with your children with or without your W.
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*fear of less time with my children
This may or may not result from whatever agreement you come to. However, you will likely improve on the quality of the time you do spend. Put down on paper a schedule that you think is reasonable and really quantify how different the time spent will be. Maybe plan a way to increase the quality of time spent with the children and implement it now so it is a routine that continues despite the transition.
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*fear of damaging my children
What is it exactly that will damage them? I know there's a very broad, all encompassing bit of knowledge that divorce is damaging. But have you done any real research into this? Have you educated yourself for the possibility of this occuring in order to do your best to be there for the children? Getting educated on this might help you understand what you might be up against and not leave you fearing what you don't know.
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*fear of being financially strapped
Again, the unknown at work. You have seen a lawyer, so are you aware of what the financial situation would likely be? You are a resourceful person and would likely find creative ways to make ends meet, so don't worry about this. Maybe make some plans now, just in case. This will set you at ease.
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*fear of never finding another R
See fear of being alone.
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*fear of having to deal with an angry, hurtful S who wants this R to continue as is
Address your anger and hurt and your desire to continue the relationship as it is. I believe this is a strong sign about how you feel about yourself in the current situation. What you would most like from your W is what you need to address in yourself.
I see all of your fears as signals for you to take action. If you look at it this way you don't get immersed in it. You find the positive, healthy information and leave the shame behind. You are not a slave to fear if you accept and address it. It's when you ignore it or try and fight it that you become a slave to it. When you can see the positive in your fear (it's self preservation, self care, self respect) you can actually have a positive experience in your fear. Does this make sense?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, I cannot argue with anything you have said here! Fear is what results when we fantasize about the future, not based on what is actually happening. We often forsee bad things because that is what we desire least versus what we desire most. Funny, how it is that we do that? It's just as easy to picture good outcomes, yet it often takes much effort to choose imagining positive outcomes. But reality is that neither good nor bad outcomes can be forecast with any accuracy. The fears that I have mentioned entail outcomes that could just as likely end up being positive. As you said, time with my family could be of better quality because of the more limited time allowed for it. My R with W could actually improve without the constant stress of having to live with each other, who knows. My life could actually improve with more targeted and conscious spending choices and result in a better use of time e.g. meditating or something else! But I do truly worry about how a separation would affect the kids. This is because we are their security in this world, the base that they depend on and to suddenly pull that out from under them is truly a horrible thought. Yet, again that fear is filled with negative outcome thinking. So, I think that fear should be an indicator that points us to action, that is its purpose. If I am staying where I am only because I fear what would come next, that is not a well made choice because I am basing my life choices on a negative fantasy. It's kind of like W tearing her family apart for her positive "fantasy" R. I think we would all agree that is poor decision making but at least she is actually experiencing something versus just fearing something that may or may not be. Making good choices means putting aside fear and asking "what is it I want" and "how do I go about getting it". Does this situation provide the resources to make that happen or not. To choose either to stay or go is not wrong, as long as it is a choice that is made in a well thought out manner. Fear should be respected as an indicator but it should never determine what that final choice will be. My two rules for staying were always 1) as long as there is hope and 2) as long as no harm is being done and a healthy environment still exists for me, my W and the kids. This is why I always have tried to keep things on an even keel, be flexible and open as possible. I often walk away to keep that so, right or wrong. All these choices need to be examined as to whether they are creating the life I want to live and what I want to be. Well, enough rambling, some of which seems a bit incoherent (!) and thanks again Muddle for your input.
But reality is that neither good nor bad outcomes can be forecast with any accuracy.
Here's an interesting thought: outcomes are facts, neither good nor bad. We choose our meaning based on our expectations and desires. Nothing in this world has intrinsic meaning. We add that to the event. Often we see the meaning rather than the fact or event. We use facts to support the meaning, but the facts are discarded when they cease to be of value. Using this logic in reverse can be a huge help here. The fact will be what it will be - and you will add the positive meaning when the time comes! Have faith in yourself. I have faith in you to do this. Who'd've thunk we all would be having the time of our lives while our spouses are doing things that hurt us so! We've turned a potentially "horrible" experience into a positive one. This skill is yours for life, applicable in all situations. So basically, you can forecast events, consequences, but to say they are bad or good is beyond human ability. They may look bad now because of what they are relative to, but in the future, when the fact comes to fruition, they may not be relative to the situation then. Sure, consequences are advantageous or not, so planning actions based on expections of getting the most advantageous consequences is the norm. But because they are advantageous doesn't make them good, just changes the pitch of the platform you stand on.
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The fears that I have mentioned entail outcomes that could just as likely end up being positive.
Which is why I expect you'll add the positive to any outcome, which negates the need to look to outcomes to justify appropriate action.
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But I do truly worry about how a separation would affect the kids. This is because we are their security in this world, the base that they depend on and to suddenly pull that out from under them is truly a horrible thought. Yet, again that fear is filled with negative outcome thinking.
Hey, WI, I'm trapped in this too. You are responsible for the lives of others, so you're responsible for how the consequences of your actions impact them. Not easy to bear the weight of this decision. Kids really change the equation. There's no room for whimsy.
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Making good choices means putting aside fear and asking "what is it I want" and "how do I go about getting it". Does this situation provide the resources to make that happen or not. To choose either to stay or go is not wrong, as long as it is a choice that is made in a well thought out manner.
Having it come down to that choice is difficult for me. I often question my motives when I go there in my mind. I respect that you ponder this, but I'm not at a point where it's an option to me. I think you need to have a goal that you work towards - love is a creative force, and to move towards realizing a life you want in a planned way that doesn't discount the option of resolving what you currently have may be what you need. Once you are where you need to be and you have clarity about what you want, make a plan and move towards it. Communicate your intentions. Make your W your partner in this, not your enemy, and see where that takes your relationship.
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My two rules for staying were always 1) as long as there is hope
As long as you decide to maintain it
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and 2) as long as no harm is being done and a healthy environment still exists for me, my W and the kids.
Even in the best of situations, kids get hurt. I think you have done well to be healthy in the situation. I think you are thriving, despite your dissatisfactions.
[quote]All these choices need to be examined as to whether they are creating the life I want to live and what I want to be. /quote]
Yes - creating a life that you want is difficult because the speculation exists outside of reality. What you think you could and should have is outside the realm of the knowable.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Stubborn, I have worked hard not to let those fears control my actions but I sometimes wonder whether they have in a way that I have just not noticed. We attach outcomes to things before they happen, good and bad. Either way can be harmful. If I believe as some do that no matter what my kids will be fine, that would be irresponsible. Will they be OK just because that thought makes me feel better about what I want to do? On the otherhand, I can sit and fret endlessly about the terrible fate that awaits them if I end my M and forget about their abilities to withstand worse things than this. I don't think imagining outcomes either way is really the answer. The answer lies in being aware of what is happening today and evaluating what is as best you can. Can I continue to be the person I want to be living in the situation I am living in? Can I be the loving father I want to be? Am I able to live in a manner that doesn't let anger, hurt and revenge rule my mood and behaviour? Can I deal with being furniture? It's best to forget about attaching outcomes that are pure imagination, good or bad and stick to dealing with the reality of what is. Those are my thoughts tonight, I'm sure they'll change tomorrow!!!
Your girls will be fine...either way...because you are a great dad and take care of them so well. It shows how well-adjusted they are, from previous stories you have mentioned.
1210, Whatis will be fine! The most horrible thought for me is not being able to tuck my girls in at night. That's the one that just tears the old heart out. But, you know, the bottom line is that ultimately you can deal with anything. That's what a good friend told me a few years after losing his father and young brother, both in the same week (his brother to suicide as he couldn't deal with the loss of his dad). I asked my friend how he could have possibly lived through this and stayed sane, he said "you live through it because you have to" Words to remember.
1210, if any split came to happen I can't imagine either my W or myself doing anything but a joint custody arangement. Thank goodness we both want what is best for our children. I would just miss tucking them in on the nights they weren't with me.
Hi folks, I forgot to give the BR dance update the other night! Well, here it is. W confronted me about my interupting a conversation between her and the teacher. W didn't understand something teacher had explained to both of us so I, your typical male, thought I should enlighten my W (despite that being the teachers job). I listened to her complaint and said "You're absolutely right, I apologize" she replied "it's OK". This is something I am proud of in myself, I am OK with saying "I was wrong" if I indeed was. The trait she mentioned is also one I need to work on, am I hoping she'll fall to her knees and worship my brilliance when I do things like that? Do I feel I am "protecting" her? What it does is makes her look like the dummy in the couple, which kind of spoils what I am trying to achieve by DBing doesn't it. So, my goal is to let my W find her own way to these kinds of answers, she really doesn't need me for that. She's damn smart and runs a social service program, I need to let her handle these situations herself. Now, I thought I would be released from BR dance duty in three weeks but they are now extending the session another 6 weeks after that. W is all for continuing, go figure! I'm a trooper, I'll carry on, I mean who else on this BB is going to keep you guys up on BR dance, it is a burden I must carry for the good of DBers everywhere
Whatis blew a gasket today! It wasn't pretty. She just kept pushing and finally I blew. I tried to walk away, go out for a walk but she had to make one more comment. Yes, idiot boy couldn't let it go! I told her I was sick and tired of her disrespect and hurtful comments. I told her that most of the time I was non-existent in this house, just another piece of furniture and she could at least polish me once and a while! I won't go on any further but it ended with me telling her to shut her f'ing mouth (pretty respectful, eh!) and telling her to move out and do us all a favour. Earlier I did mention that I was tired of hearing nothing but criticism and I never hear anything positive like "that was really good" or any appreciation for anything I do, just negative, hurtful comments. I think I called her an emotional bully. I went for a 2 hour walk and I'm home, she's outside helping D bike like nothing happened. Did I handle this well? NO, but I'm tired of giving a damn. No more am i taking her crap.
thanks Ford, She's a selfish, self-centered, insensitive bully and I'm damn sick and tired of trying to keep the lid on things. I need to find a nice middle ground between sluffing it off and blowing. At least this was only the second time I've let go like that in about 9 months. hey, I asked her to go for counselling with me to figure out where we are going, she refused. I told her I was unhappy with the current situation and it couldn't continue much longer. What does she think I am Robo-loser! She just has to have her own way, i saw it with the kids tonight, she just can't allow people space, she's always badgering to get her way whether it's to get them in the bathtub or eat a piece of fruit! There is no compromise, it's my way or I badger you until I get it. Today she was on me from the moment she came home carrying on about one thing or another. Here's one small example of shaming me in front of my kids. In our family meeting I mentioned I would bring a plumber in on the March break (costs less if you can book a day appt) W "How much will it cost" M "I don't know, because I don't know what needs to be done to fix the problem" W "Can't you phone and ask them?" M "I can but how can they tell me the cost if they haven't seen what needs to be done?" W "So he's just going to come over and fix it and you don't know how much you will be paying, are you in the habit of buying things without knowing how much they will cost?" (sarcastically) M "No" W "So how are you going to find out" M "Hey, why don't you find out!" (I'm starting to lose it) This was only one of an endless barrage of poison banter! The one that pushed me over the brink was when she accused me of "controlling" her money because she couldn't understand the investment statements. She throws questions at me like "why did we invest in this and why not that" Lets see we discussed these decisions at least five years ago, how the Hell do I remember any more than she does. She expects snap answers to any question she poses. It's OK for her to be totally ignorant for years but I'm supposed to be a walking investment encyclopedia. It's more the frustrated, demeaning tone she uses when she asks. It's as though she wants me not know and/or be wrong. I tried to be patient thinking "it's good that she wants to know and understand" but "you are controlling my money" was too much. I went ballistic. I'm sick and tired of her sh!t, her inability to see me as a person with feelings. All she can see is what she wants and to Hell with a diplomatic or sensitive way of approaching getting it. It's hurtful. Well, enough ranting for one night. I'm really tired, letting loose those angry emotions is exhausting. W's now gone out to see OW and cry on her shoulder about her unreasonable, hurtful H. Thank God, I can use the break!
Wow, just after writing that last post I felt like my old self again, something lifted. I went upstairs and tucked my girls in and apologized for my behaviour earlier with Mom, as yelling is a frightening thing. I told them never to worry about Dad leaving and never coming back (W told them that I had said this on my way out the door! What a b!tch, why would you tell kids that even if it were true, and it was NOT. Just one more example of insensitivity at its finest)They said they knew that and said "it's OK Dad, everyone gets mad sometimes". I love them so much!!!
wow buddy. Let's face the facts: you deserve Sainthood for not ripping her head off months ago. (not what you expected huh?) I totally understand how you could lose it and the "leaving" comment to your kids is so amazingly immature. She deserves to get nailed for that. I don't know if you want to revisit this whole pleasant situation with her but IF you chose to feel justified in telling her that was an emotionally damaging thing to say to children, and just plain mean, not to mention a lie. And I know you love her, even though she wins "ass of the year" award. Check out my ramblings tonight. Hope you find something fun for tomorrow. Gotta love those girls!
I have a shovel and I'm not afraid to use it. Stubby
wow buddy. Let's face the facts: you deserve Sainthood for not ripping her head off months ago. (not what you expected huh?) I totally understand how you could lose it and the "leaving" comment to your kids is so amazingly immature. She deserves to get nailed for that. I don't know if you want to revisit this whole pleasant situation with her but IF you chose to feel justified in telling her that was an emotionally damaging thing to say to children, and just plain mean, not to mention a lie. And I know you love her, even though she wins "ass of the year" award. Check out my ramblings tonight. Hope you find something fun for tomorrow. Gotta love those girls!
I have a shovel and I'm not afraid to use it. Stubby
Well, I woke up this morning and W was not here. I slept in the basement last night because I don't want to share a bed with the two timing bitch any longer. I thought I heard her come home at about 3:00am and I guess she must have picked up some stuff and headed down to OP's place for the night. F@ck her! I'm tired of screwing around and playing house together. I'm tired. ENOUGH. Oh and yes, I will end the cycle of one upmanship that appears to be going on here. It's childish. But, no more will I live with emotional abuse.
Oh and yes, I will end the cycle of one upmanship that appears to be going on here. It's childish. But, no more will I live with emotional abuse.
How will you accomplish this? What are your boundaries? I truly do understand your frustration but you must know by now that you need to plan when you are calm and not blowing a gasket. BTW, I blew a while ago, sometimes the radiator cap malfunctions and just comes off!
IMO, your kids are not living with any certainty in their lives. They need some form of security more than just words that everything will be alright. I remember crying all night when I would hear my folks fighting, I was terrified of what would happen if they split. I hope your kids don't have to feel that way.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Stubborn, are Saints still allowed to use swear words in their posts? If not, to Hell with Sainthood! From the bottom of my basement floor (my new sleeping quarters)I thank you for your support! (and you too WCW!) Actually the basement floor is warmer than the person I've been sleeping with for the past 17 years.
Thanks UA, but I can't MAKE her do anything. I can choose to sleep in the basement, that's my choice, but I can't tell her what her choice will be. I do not want to share a bed with her at this point. To me sharing a bed shows intimacy and we do not have that. For too long I have been working my butt off to create connection, we're talking years here!!! I think it's time to detach (as others have told me in the past) and accept this is history and carry on with that in mind. Leave it to her now. I'm done. I will do what is best for me and the kids in this sitch but I'm through trying to make this work. DONE! Oops, I'm getting all worked up again, can't detach when I'm all worked up. For now, my job is to level out, that's a big enough job for one day. Thanks for dropping by.
Whatisis, Wow you are dealing with a female form of my H. I did not realise who similar our sitch was. H does the same things to me, not there for me emotionally or for support, and does not want to talk to try and fix things. But understand one thing you are human, and you can not always hold things in, that is bad. Yes you have to blow your top sometimes, yes maybe it was not the best time in the world for it to happen but it happened can not change things now, what is done is done. Just keep working on yourself, like you have told me, give it your best and at the end of the day you can live with yourself. Yes some days you will give it your best without the best results, that's life. Just my quick two cents.
Thanks Kim, it has been an emotionally draining weekend indeed. Right now I'm remembering an experience with my Daughter some years ago (I'm known for D stories on the BB!). We were doing some arts and crafts and she was a few years old. She was very involved in her painting and was intent on finishing, despite having to go to the washroom. Suddenly she said quite forcefully "NO, pee pee, NOT NOW!" It was so funny. I think what I have to do is say "NO, anger, NOT NOW!" I acknowledge it is there right now and it is legitimate beyond belief but raw expression gets me nowhere. It happened and now I deal with it. It has indeed pushed me closer to thinking about the end for this R. Kim, I have been a trooper for at least three years and dealing with her A for the past year. It may be time to call retreat. Time will tell but I will not let blind emotion make my decisions for me. Thanks for your encouragement, I know you're going through alot right now too, so it means something when you drop in. Take care.
I just got back from aerobics class. Wow, what a difference exercise makes. I'm now actually looking forward to sleeping in the basement tonight! D just offered me some candy, apparently it came from OW! Yes, your lovers H just exploded so you choose to send home treats for his kids. What a f@cking lunatic! I feel like dropping her an email (yes, I know her email address) and saying "Just wanted to let you know that if you send home anymore treats for my children I will be dropping by personally to return them. I'd also be more than happy to meet your family, I'm sure they'd love to meet the H of the woman you are having an affair with. I'm sure as a good Catholic girl that would be no problem for you. Maybe I could come to church with you one Sunday, meet the Priest. So, as you may have already gathered, my cheese is not firmly planted on my cracker these days, so don't push me too far b!tch, you won't like the results! Hey, say hi to my W for me and, I almost forgot to add this, rot in Hell bitch " I mean wouldn't this be following the DB handbook, you know, if something isn't working try something different! All I have to do is hit that send button, what's W gonna do stop loving me! OK, I know, OP isn't the problem but it would feel damn good to rip a strip off her anyway. Maybe I'll just eat the candy and send her a thank you note.
OK, sleeping in the basement is killing me! I can't get to sleep (which may be due to things other than the basement) and my body feels like Hell (again, might just be tension). It's dark and I hate it down here! I feel like I'm on that emotional rollercoaster again, one minute I can't live like this another day and the next I'm OK. In my sleep last night I remember telling myself "You'll be OK, you can do this", even when I'm sleeping! I'm thinking strategy right now. What I am doing is pretty much a stupid military manoever, I am attacking the enemy at her strongest point! She grew up watching her parents carry on like this forever, this is like home to her. She knows how to play this game with her eyes closed, I do not. I'm gonna get wiped out and I've got no reinforcements to call up! I'm thinking my new strategy will be to confront her whenever she is rude by politely saying "could you change your tone,please" (she says this to the kids herself usually without the please). Last night we almost got into it again but I did walk away after making my point. She had left forms for me to sign on the kitchen table but never told me they were there for me to sign. In the course of our short discussion, which was her putting blunt questions to me "what is happening with this..." She then informed me that "I left those forms on the table for you to sign days ago" in a snarky manner and I replied "I would have to be told that those forms were there for me to sign before knowing I'm to do that, wouldn't I" and she replied "I'm telling you now" then I walked away. Bitch! So I kept telling myself to let it go, go to sleep but NO...3:00 am before I pass out. It's a sign of how worked up I am, normally these things pass over and don't cause me much grief but now...whew! Well, I know one thing, I am not continuing to live like this much longer. It is not healthy for anyone. I don't know where I'm going with this yet, just thinking out loud. Damn, I need a comfortable bed. BTW tonight is BR dance, youngest D is going with us to watch, hopefully that will keep the fireworks to a minimum. W has also planned a family outing for us all on Friday. Life just goes on, maybe she's just self actualized and can let go of all these petty worldly restraints like good relationships
Just reading your thread. I am located under the same forum under the thread "I'm thinking of leaving." Your wife sounds like my wife. Maybe they are sisters. It has to be her way or the highway. I too have gotten fed up with her attitude. If I do something wrong or make an honest mistake because I am human and we all make mistakes, she yells and curses at me worse then a truck driver in front of my two young children. If she makes a mistake where someone pointed out something to her, she still treats me the same way. I could go on and on with this but the only advice I can give you is to pray and pray as often as you can.
Thanks Conty, My W is much more subtle, no screaming or yelling. She likes to make snide, sarcastic remarks, ignore me when I speak, walk away during a conversation, never inquire about anything to do with me and my life, huff and puff and sigh when I make mistakes (or what she percieves as a mistake), never show appreciation...I could go on and on too BUT what for? She's a mean, angry person right now and I'm a regular target. I guess better me than the kids! That's what I've always told myself. I've often thrown myself on the verbal grenade just to spare my kids! Bottom line is that it is not a healthy way to live. My kids watch her and learn from her. What are they learning about R's? What are they learning about the way a W should treat her H? That concerns me. My girls are good, caring people and I want them to stay that way. How long do I sit here, feeling hope is gone and taking her emotionally abusive crap? And yes, it is abusive when you continually treat someone else like a sub human, striking out at them due to your own unhappiness. The sad thing is she knows this is what she is like but won't do anything about it! It's as though she feels so overwhelmed and helpless in dealing with it that she just gives up. How sad is that. I think the end is fast approaching my friend. I can't see any way to continue like this much longer BUT the good thing about life is that we can never see what is approaching around the next bend, maybe even something good is coming! Who knows. Thanks for dropping by neighbour!!!
I am the only one who feels my W has issues of her own that have nothing to do with me. Even our therapist said this to me in private when we went to MC. However, my W would go once, maybe 2 times in the 3 attempts to understand each other. She wanted the marriage to work, but she wanted me to make all the changes. She felt she didn't have to work on herself what-so-ever. I too feel that I have to stay for my children's sake because if I am not the target, then they will be.
According to my wife and her family, my wife is the martyr to live with someone like me. The funny part is, around her family, me wife never shows her true colors of how abusive she can be so they never see it. My family has seen it several times.
I go through my ups and downs but lets not give up the ship just yet. That is the easy way out and I lost count on how many times I would rather just give up. Keep praying though for strength. CY
Thanks CY. I've moved myself out of the basement. I'm not spending another night somewhere I hate sleeping! I'm going back to my bed, in my room. She can move to the basement if she wants to, she actually likes sleeping down there (probably makes her feel closer to the dark side). I'm not fighting a war on her terms and that's what I've been doing. Time for a ceasefire and some real thinking about options, goals and boundaries. Gotta go, I'm taking D and her friend bowling, should be fun.
her putting blunt questions to me "what is happening with this..." She then informed me that "I left those forms on the table for you to sign days ago" in a snarky manner and I replied "I would have to be told that those forms were there for me to sign before knowing I'm to do that, wouldn't I" and she replied "I'm telling you now" then I walked away. Bitch!
Your reply could be - 'I am sorry, I didn't realize you had left the forms for me. I will look them over now that I am aware they are there for me. Thank you.'
Did you really know the forms were not on the table for you? were you playing into her game? she didn't tell you about them so you wouldn't acknowledge it? This would have been your opportunity to play offense. You could have taken care of the forms, and then mention to her 'I found the forms you left on the table for me, thank you. I took care of it for you, it's all handled now.'
When I read you were moving to the basement, I was going to caution about acting too soon while you were still in anger mode. Now YOU are suffering the effects of YOUR anger while SHE is still in the comfy bed. What's your plan to rectify this?
Maybe you really have reached your limit and it's time to move on. Choose your plan carefully, not while you are reacting to recent events. 24 hour rule, no regrets.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Hi WCW, I honestly did not know the forms were for me to sign. It was an information sheet and permission form for a day trip my D is going on this week. I read the information and saw W had signed but did not realize I was to sign it too. So, no I wasn't playing games. I did respond defensively to her because I'm tired of just saying "Oh, I didn't realize, I'll do that right now" kind of responses. I've gone the nice, caring hubby route and ignoring her tone etc much of the time so I need a new strategy. I believe I will call her on things rather than pass them by or get defensive. Is there a nice way to say "could you please use a different tone"? I'm serious. I want her to be aware that her verbal abuse is noticed and will not be tolerated...but politely. For too long I got into the habit of justifying her bad behaviour by saying "she's under alot of stress" or "she's depressed" but as the years go by it just continues. I do believe she is depressed, she has been on AD's before but refuses to take them now. She won't go for counselling and I've asked her to please do so, for herself not for me or the R, again, she refuses. She's a very angry and unhappy woman. I can only start to set up consistent boundaries, hold my temper and really consider whether this remains a healthy environment for myself or my kids. It's time for a counselling appt. for me. I think.
How was bowling? BR dance is tonight? I was thinking that was Wednesday, where have I been?
You're sure right to set boundaries along the theory of if what you're doing isn't working then change it. Easy to say, tougher to do. The obvious is to let her know what you just said,
Quote:
I want her to be aware that her verbal abuse is noticed and will not be tolerated
Say it once, then actions speak louder than words. Tell her once, then walk away and do not respond to her verbal abuse. It will get worse before it gets better, but right now you are rewarding her bad behavior.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Bowling was fun, glow in the dark bowling. Last game my D's friend was leading by a pointin the last frame so I decided to try and get one pin and botch the rest so she'd win but not make it too obvious. I ended up getting two strikes in a row, so much for good intentions. What happened there was I kind of relaxed and wasn't looking for a strike, figuring I'd gutter or something, and then bang two strikes in a row. I need to do that in my sitch right now, stop looking to make things happen and let go. Set my goals like being assertive when she's rude and go from there. This is too friggin exhausting!
I've just been thinking about something I said when W first told me of her A. She told me how amazed she was that I wasn't yelling and screaming at her. What I said was "I won't let you turn me into someone I do not want to be". I think that has relevence to what is happening right now. I'm choosing to allow her rude and angry behaviour to turn me into an angry, vindictive person. It stops here and now. I will continue to be a person I can be proud of. If I call it quits, it will be done in that manner.
We just got back from BR dance. I was Mr. PMA tonight! Happy, bubbly, outgoing and funny (at least I thought so). I was excited because D9 was going with us to watch. It really lifted my spirits to know she was going to see us in action. I think she played gameboy the whole time! W was really trying to hold back the snark, I could tell. Only one or two minor slips, I'll give her those. At one point she looked at me, during a Cha Cha and asked "Do you have any idea what your are doing?" and I replied "absolutely none". She smirked trying to hold back a chuckle. I decided tonight I was going to have fun, and what she did was up to her. On the way, I was joking with D about how she'll never want to see Dancing With The Stars again after watching us dance and D asked W "is he always this annoying on the way to dance class?" W found that pretty funny (who would of thought!). I was rather tense about this earlier in the day, I mean do I want to even go with her? I decided that I was proud of what I have accomplished on that floor and I'm not letting her take that away from me by not going. We have the opportunity to attend six more classes after this session. I will ask her soon whether she wants to, I will point out that I often seem to irritate her and if that is the case then why continue. If she is enjoying herself then I will register us, it's up to her. So that's it from the dancefloor tonight Dbers. BTW I'm back in my bed tonight, maybe I'll get a decent nights sleep!
speaking of dancing w/ the stars - I heard they quoted Heather Mills (is that her name?) saying to one of the helpers that she thought $20K a day sounded like a lot, but it's really not - and she only asked for $17K!
INSANITY!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll take her $3K a day -
Good for you on PMA, hanging out with the fam and getting back into your bed.
that was one thing that bothered me about my sitch - I felt even more guilty when my H moved across the hall. After all I did, he shouldn't have been the one moving anywhere
....Understand, that I can't, not be what I am I'm not the milk, and Cheerios in your spoon ~ Avril Lavigne ~ ..."Nobody's Fool"...
Thanks UA, hey sorry to hear about your H finding your support stash here on the BB. I'm glad to see it hasn't kept you from coming back! As for me, I'm in a funk today, I may be catching a cold combined with a couple of good physical workouts the last few days using my overly uptight body! But, I'm thinking it may be time to cash in my chips. I just can't imagine continuing this way. I see no healthy future for myself or my family by continuing to live as we are. I'm dealing with a person who refuses to discuss our future, the best I got was "if you want to leave, leave!" I don't even like her anymore. I've NEVER ever felt that way. This is a person who describes herself as "selfish, self-centred, unable to meet others needs but that's who I am" She says she has difficulty in dealing with the kids when they need something from her. I live in a situation with a woman who appears to resent my very existence. The things I thought might make a difference, such as BR dance, working on the finances together have just created more tension and anger between us. We rarely have a conversation about anything other than the kids, she treats me like a piece of furniture when she's not pissing on me! What the Hell kind of life is this? I'm seriously thinking of telling her this weekend that the party is over, start thinking about separation and how we're going to do it. I can't ever imagine this woman changing short of a nervous breakdown. I'm emotionally and physically drained right now. It's time to get on with life, limbo land is nowhere to spend your life. Again, this is very emotional for me right now, I just want to sit down and cry my heart out but I can't, there is nowhere to do it. Sorry, to be such a downer but whatis is.
Did you see my H posted though? He's not upset with me posting here, just that at some points, I was posting TMI.....but as we all know, we're all in such a fog when these things happen and we just want or need to let it all out and I really didn't have anywhere else to do that.
....Understand, that I can't, not be what I am I'm not the milk, and Cheerios in your spoon ~ Avril Lavigne ~ ..."Nobody's Fool"...
1. She's calling the shots. She treats you poorly and you blow up. She's the puppeteer. Time to take back the control of your life.
2. It might be time for an ulimatum. Calmly give her 1-2 mos to consider. Ask her to leave. Get evidence of the affair just in case she wants to be litigious.
3. You're obviously not happy wih her. She's committing adultery. Marriage experts say that divorce is never good for the kids unless: 1. there's physical abuse; or 2. Chronic infidelity. Either one ends up emotionally or physically hurting the other spouse, and hurting the kids.
4. You are are doing amazing. But it's clear you are powder-keg ready to blow.
5. Your Get a Life activities are great. Bravo. Very "zen", very calming. Maybe something's missing here: testosterone. What do I mean? It seems assertiveness is missing from your marriage and, perhaps your life. The new you may need something more direct, a wear-your-heart on your sleeve persona. How about Karate or Kick-Boxing? You've tried being calm, non fix-it, emotionally validating and nice -- it's not working for your wife. Your stretching your feminine side to the breaking point, and it's not gettiing you where you want to go. How about an opposite approach? A true 180? How about increasing your masculine strength? Kick ass and take no prisoners.
6. Along those lines. Maybe your wife's seeking a female sexual partner means she's been masculinized to some degree. IF that's unalterable, then you guys are finished unless you are willing to play the sterotypical "female" role. If you are OK with her being dominant, you need to start being what the OW is in her life -- a calculating, ego-feeding sychophant. Notice the OW is stoking your wife's career and sense of mission -- playing to her masculing side. If you are not willing to mimic the OW, and I think you aren't, then try a radical 180, and re-masculinize yourself. Maybe her masculine side can be altered and re-feminized. Re-discovering your masculinity might bring out the female side in your wife and restore attraction. There's a guy named David Dada that suggests sexual polarity is what makes attraction. Loss of mission in life and nerve in a man causes a woman to seek a more masculine role in the marriage and therefore the polarity is gone. Did you lose your nerve? Did you wife's focus on work, instead of relationships, make her more "masculine"? Did you lose your mission in life?
7. If you want to try something else before the ultimatum, try reading the Way of a Superior Man by Dada. And try the e-book sold in http://www.Makingherhappy.com by Cunningham. It's an interesting approach. It's in line with DB principles but it may give you interesting food for thought for a dramatic 180. It would be fun 180. It seems that restoring attraction is key right now. Being nice isn't working. Letting her call the emotional shots isn't working. Maybe standing firm will. If she's looking for a wife, you're not that person. If she's looking for a man, she's not going to get it in the OW. Maybe she'll find that man in you.
You are a saint and a good man. You really can't blow it at this stage.
Thanks for the input, Theo! Actually, I did take Tae Kwondo with my kids for over a year, great exercise. youngest D quit after she inadvertently kicked the instructor in the balls and everyone laughed. She never quite got over that one. One thing W certainly is aware of is that my schedule is not open to change any longer to make way for her life. I make plans regardless of her "night out" with OW and she changes her plans. W has always been driven work wise, part of it is cultural and she works for an organization of her culture, that just pumps her up even more. She isn't interested in getting ahead but only in looking competent. Her biggest fear is looking incompetent to others. I have put my job related growth on hold for her and recently decided to start taking courses to further that aspect of my life. W comes from a very disfunctional family where father was involved in an A for 25 years and W's mother knew about it. Her response was to use the children as weapons against Dad, my W was a child forced to be Mother to her Mother and to the rest of her brothers and sisters. She had no one stroking her and telling her how wonderful she was and when the "sychophant", as you so aptly put it, showed up she went for it hook line and sinker. One of the things she said really attracted her to me was, as she told me, that I treated her like a Queen! Somewhere in family etc that died down a bit (imagine that). She wanted to be the center of attention and that couldn't be with a young family thus the sychophant. Now to your ideas, how would I show this manly side you mention? Certainly by saying "talk to me properly" would be one way (I've done that one before, no luck), anything else come to mind? Presently I do what I want and she knows I'm going to cuz I told her that a year ago, and I do it. So, ideas anyone? I do like the idea of giving a time limit on the ultimatum, letting her really decide what she wants. If she wants the OP then she's welcome to it, lets just stop playing f@cking house and get on with life. Thanks Theo.
1. Approach her sexually. It shows confidence, it shows passion, it shows you expect somethign from her. She may say no. But then, why not try? Brusied ego? You're past that by now.
2. Ravish Her. If and when you do have sex, be the ravisher. Pentetration is an expression of masculinity. If your sexuality has become merely mutual stimulation (oral or manual), that's androgynous. Two men or two women can do that to each other.
3. Shock her with your love, don't reason with her or withdraw. When she psychologically beats you up, don't "disengage" to control your anger and lick your wounds, don't reason or argue. Instead, move towards her in a passionate, counter-intuitive way. When she's snappy, say, "Shoot, you are so hot tonight." When you did somethign awesome at work (got a promotion) and tell her, and instead of praising you, she says, "Where's the milk I asked you to get? I left a note in your briefcase." You can act pissed and go get the milk. (Wrong answer...you just ceded power to her) You can tell her she hurt your feelings (Well now, little boy is about to cry). Or you can apprach her with a huge grin on your face, kiss her on the cheek -- better on the lips -- and say, "Hun, I'll get the freaking milk, but I just got a promotion." Cut through her cloudy mess with your unshackable unperturbable love.
This happened to me one evening at dinner. We were on a date night and at the bar waiting for our table, my wife and I got into an argument about her new spiritual path. It was devolving into "Theoden, you're judging me." and me saying, "No, I'm not." I was trying to argue my way out of this. It was getting worse. At the time I hadn't learned listening and validating. So instead, I shocked her with my love. As we sat down at the table, I have her a lustful look and said, "Damn you look so hot tonight." She blushed from ear to ear and we has a great evening. I also was drinking a bit and was very relaxed.
Did I mention the benefits of alcohol?
4. Find your mission in life. Enhance your career. Become incredibly clear and passionate.
Honestly, try reading The Way of the Superior Man. Try the ebook I suggested. There are uniquely masculine ways of delaing with the woman that are firm but tender and passionate.
It still might be about sexual polarity. The Lesbian affair is what intrigues me. Maybe she simply wants a sycophant and anyone will do, man or woman. Hmmmmm.....I doubt it. Why a woman and not a man? I don't believe in the cultural androgyny that everyone is buying into. This might be a male-female issue.
Maybe she'll only be comfortable being a woman if she feels your heart is bigger than hers, more generous, wilder, more of a leading, protecting and guiding presence. That way she can relax in your presence.
In re to my last post, I was just thinking about the time I did tell W how it was going to be. It was a few months after bomb #2 and she called me just as I was going to leave for a Yoga class. She wanted me to take the kids because she couldn't get home in time. I told her that I could not because I had not fed them and had to leave right now. She got flustered and said she couldn't leave "we're talking money" and I said "if you had called earlier I could have accomidated you but now I can't" she said "what do you want!" I replied "I want to go to my class" so she said "Alright I'll come home!". When I returned from my class she lit into me, "You need to be more flexible and stop being an A-hole" and I replied "I'm sorry you see it that way but you've put me in a posititon where I am forced to take care of my own needs, I was flexible for years and look what it got me." She looked at me and said "You're right" and walked away. Since then this issue has never arisen again. I handled it in a calm, controlled manner and that may have made the difference? A screaming maniac doesn't seem to make the same impact, no matter how right. Just thinking out loud.
Theo, I used to go for it frequently and, sorry, it got damn frustrating! I scored twice in the same week once this year after that she'd pull herself into a little ball so I couldn't get at anything. Stopped trying then, it felt kind of pathetic to keep at it. As for why the woman and not a man. She told me other men had asked her out but she said no, even though she wanted to, because "I was a married woman" and the woman is/was her best friend so she explains this as "it was just something that happened between two people, nobody planned it" She said it snuck up on her because they already had a close R. Personally, Theo I think I was right when I called the two of them "a pair of sick bitches". Really, I think she's nuts.
Ok...so you think the whole polarity thing doesn't apply in this situation?
Perhaps not.
I thought it might be a fun option to try.
Ok...then.
It looks like, long-term this situation cannot continue. You are living with someone who is committing adultery and disrespecting you.
Only you can decide when it's time to offer an ultimatum.
I think that would perfectly be in order.
Protect youself, get evidence just in case. Speak to your counselor and talk to a lawyer. I'm sure you will be amicable with your wife.
I think, perhaps the separation, the reality of not having you around, *and* of seeing how much her best friend/lover will eventually become a suffocating presence in her life, might turn her around. You will continue to DB for yourself and any other exciting woman you meet. It may be your wife, it may be someone else. It's been said that addicts only stop when the pain outweighs the rush.
Scoring was fun! But I think she's into the "loyalty to OP" kick now. But, in hindsight, when I did score it was after she had returned from an overseas trip that I had refused to go on with her and the kids. It was to visit her family and I said I would not go and pretend to be the happy Hubby for her family. I also felt time away from each other might be beneficial. The day after she returned I initiated ML and she went for it. Talk about performance anxiety, I thought " I better make this good or I won't be getting any more" I wonder if taking control and saying "I'm not going" was what you described? It hurt like Hell and I cried a few times, my family had never gone on a trip without me until then. It was also right after that she agreed to try BR dance with me and have I paid for that choice! It may indeed be appropriate to talk to a counsellor at this point again and I conferred with a lawyer about one year ago (I told W that I had done so and said "I may be a loyal man but I'm not a stupid man), it might be a good idea to do so again. I'm leaning to your idea of giving a time limit ultimatum, it gives her time to really think about what she wants. She recently refused to go for counselling with me to discuss the future. Counsellor said W needed to start thinking about the future instead of being mired in the present and just getting through. Anyway, please don't feel your input has not been valuable, it has. Thanks again, Theo.
It seems that right now your wife had everything she wants: a stable income-producing roomate at home, a loving father to her children, and an outside lover/best friend she can have her ego fed with and have sex with. She gets to beherself with you: she doesn't have to edit herself, she's not trying to please you, she can even be nasty if she wants. She enjoys some "family" activities with you so she can palliate her conscience and make her think she's a good person.
This stasis is ideal for her. It's utterly selfish but vert comfortable. It's ultimately self-destructive, but she can't see that. People living in the Matrix are pretty well narcotized until someone upsets their little world.
Timlines and talking about the future might help.
When you talk about the future with your wife, see if she has thought what it would look like for her: with or without you. 1,2,3,5,7 years down the line. Let her draw out scenarios. Be brave. She's already mentally checked out of your marriage, it's just a matter of seeing and naming the future out loud and on paper.
She plans to stay with you for the sake of the kids for how long? What will that look like? Is she OK with you seeing other people while you are married? Does she want a paper marriage European style? People in French, Latin and Fililpino cultures accept this.
Does she intend to stay in this relationship with OW? For how long? Does she want this woman as her "life-partner" or is she just a convenient stopping point until she finds another man? Is it really a healthy relationship?
Does she realize what you leaving, because of her affair, will might do to the children?
Your counselor is really trying to help you and probably will help you exhaust every possible option until you decide that it's over and offer an ultimatum.
I think, perhaps 3 things have not been explored yet.
1. A true 180. Start acting out of character in a strong, decisive, counter-intuitive way. It might unbalance her and make her think.
2. A real attempt at the Last Resort Technique. Hard core. Going dark. Being mysterious. Stop everyhing that you would do as a happily married couple. No ballroom dancing. (It seems you don't enjoy it with her anyway. Better yet, do it by yourself.) Family events are fine to do: you are still there for the kids and you'll have to respect their mother. This might give her a taste for what she'll be missing in a small way. Don't be there for her at all. Respond to her at your pace when and if you want to. In other words, stop "working" on the relationship. She still feels like you are trying and it gives her a rush of power. She has no idea what life without you will be like. Her vacation without you made her miss you.
3. Seriously consider the whole male/female dynamic. It might be a unique way of doing a 180 for you. The power in the relationship right now is 95% her and 5% you. You need to act *as if* is 100% with you. She needs, for the moment, to be an appendage to your life. And if this marriage gets healed, then, you with both be equal players in a shared story. This guy Cunningham, and David Dada believe the main issue in a marraige is attractiom. And attraction is bases on polarity. Polarity is a dance. Some marriages work if both partners are sexually neutral (your both equally masculine and feminine) and that's a rarity. Most marriages have polarity. It's the loss of this, and ultimately attraction, that causes things to go sour.
If you don't buy the polarity argument, that's OK. Read Cunningham's e-book at http://www.makingherhappy.com. Look at is from the angle of attraction. He argues that women have attraction buttons, and all you need to do is push them. The way you push them is to excercize you masculinity in a strong yet benevolent way.
Ok...I've banged this drum enough times.
If you do give her an ultimatum, will you file? Will you just spearate and watch? Do you want her to move out or will you? I suggest she moves out. She needs her world upset. You shouldn't be the one to move out so that she can have what she wants. Either way, not having you around and being, perhaps, encouraged to move in with the butt-ugly sycophant might stir her pot and make her re-think. If it doesn't, I'm sorry: but think of it this way, if your wife needs a needy "woman" to emotionally wait on her hand and foot -- good riddance.
Thank you, Theo. There is alot to absorb in that post. I will give it serious thought. Right now, I am fighting the urge to sit her down tonight and say "I am not willing to do this anymore, I am ready to give you one month to decide whether you want to re-build our marriage and keep our family together or not. If so, I am ready to give 100% to making our M work, if not then we will sit down and work out a separation agreement that is in the best interests of all involved. Let me know" I'm still too emotional I think to make that decision today but damn it, I want to! I have to detach more right now, I'm responding emotionally to her stupid little behaviours. For example, this morning I dropped D at her day activity and returned home. I sat down and opened the newspaper and W walked into the living room, went right by me, got something out of her purse and walked away. No good morning or acknowledgement of any kind. When she left she yelled goodbye to eldest D and ignored me completely. Normally, crap like that has little impact on me, it's childish, selfish nonsense but today it got my dander up. I've got to let go of that. I've been trying to tell myself that this is her issue and has nothing to do with me. Today, we also met with someone re financial matters and I did not once interupt to explain anything to W, I let the rep. take care of everything. I caught myself twice wanting to jump in but stopped. I think I did good! Oh, and W has not slept in our room since I moved back in, I think it is her way of saying "screw you". Hey, it works for me, I'm back in my bed and she can find places to sleep. Theo, I'm with you when you talk of getting her to look at the future, that is exactly what counsellor wants her to do. Personally, if she does want OP and not our R then I am more than willing to pack it in and make the best life we can separately for our kids. Just friggin tell me! I don't want to live in an environment full of anger and hate, that is no life for any of us. I want to approach W with ultimatum at a time when I'm at peace not filled with inner turmoil and resentment. I hope that day is still possible. I believe the bright spot ere may be that the winter months are almost over and that is when her yearly depression usually lifts. I was thinking a few weeks ago that this year we were getting off lightly but now when I look back at her behaviour, it has been more than trying, it just creeps up on you little by little and you don't notice. We usually have a big blowup earlier than this, I thought maybe we had avoided it this year. Oh well, every family needs its traditions. I believe during last years performance I told her to go and get some psychiatric help, I think she may have missed her appointments Just thought I'd mention that my strategy right now is to call her on rudeness in a calm, polite manner. If she chooses not to greet me then that's her business but when she does interact with me (or the kids) she will need to address us in an appropriate manner or stay the Hell away from us!
Whatisis, I have not kept up and for that I am sorry. But just wanted to let you know that I was thinking of you brother....Hope all is going as well as can be expected.
Take care of yourself and those kids...
Later, ben
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
Theo, don't let me bring you down! I'm like the Energizer Bunny, I just keep on going! Thanks for caring. BTW you too, OSU. Just thought I'd mention something positive (to perk Theo up!). We met with a financial rep. today and my W made the arrangements. She made it for the morning because I had plans to go out this evening. This meant she had to miss a few hours of work which is like depriving her of oxygen. She told me she did this so that I could still go out tonight. I do feel that was respectful (naw, probably just wanted me out of the house ). Just kidding! It was a nice gesture on her part. Now I actually have to go out even though I don't feel like it!
)cuz tossing in the towel is becoming a frequent thought these days. For any of you lucky enough to have missed my sitch I'll fill you in as briefly as possible:
insert breaking my arm patting myself on the back) 
