Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 12
#909594 01/29/07 09:44 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
I thought maybe it would be best to start a second "Moving Forward" thread.

It's been awhile since I last posted on the old thread, but there is still much to share and learn from others about moving forward.

One of the biggest fears we have is change. We get comfortable in our daily life and set patterns that have been created over many years.

Our spouses MLC creates shock to our senses and brings up all of our buried fears. For me, the fear of being alone, fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough, fear of not being loved, fear of fear itself was what rose to the surface when my XW dropped the bomb.

In long term marriages we become very complacent in our interactions with our spouse. Our lives have become very routine and predictable.

When our MLC spouse announces they are unhappy and want a seperation or divorce, it is like getting sucker punched. We never saw it coming.

We believed that marriage was forever, and didn't give mcuh thought of things being any different.

The world we live in today is, "expect the unexspected." As you may have noticed, there are many changes occuring throughout the world at what seems like the speed of light. Well maybe not that fast, but it does seem as if things are changing everyday and quickly.

The "information age" is bringing about changes in the way we live and our beliefs about life, marriage and relationships.

Change is occuring whether we are ready for it or not.

A recent message from Hazelden talks about change.

Today's thought:

"The reality is that changes are coming ...They must come. You must share in bringing them."
John Hersey

"Change. It's scary. It's hard. It's needed. Sometimes it feels good; other times it feels bad. But one thing is for sure: it keeps on happening.

Just when our life seems settled, it changes. We can't stop life. We can't stay this age for ever. The world changes. Life moves on. There are always new things to do and learn.

Change means we're always beginners in some ways. We need to ask for wisdom and courage. We get it by listening, br praying, by meditating. When we ask, our Higher Power will teach us to be part of good changes."

Prayer of the Day
Higher Power, help me believe that Your plans call for good changes.

Action for the Day
Today I'll think about the changes in my life. I've lived through a lot. I'll be okay when more changes come, with God's help. I can keep growing.

This message came from the book, "Keep it Simple" by Anonymous.

Yesterday was the 53rd anniversary of my being born into the world. My children and grandchildren were over to celebrate and enjoy each others company. My granchildren bring pure joy.

During my life journey I have experienced many changes. All were for the best, even though they seemed like bad changes at the time.

My divorce has worked out to be a very good change for me, even though it brought up all of my fears. What it has done is helped me to face my fears and learn what they are all about.

I'm still working on them, and probably will until the day comes for me to return home. That is how it probably should be.

We are here to learn the lessons that are intended for each of us. We continue to have the same experiences, sometimes with different people, over and over until we finally learn the lessson we are supposed to learn.

For some of us, especially me, we have to repeat the tough experiences over many times before we finally "get it." I seem to learn better by attending the "school of hard knocks."

My second marriage has brought up the same issues I had in my first. The issues are not within my new wife, but within me. Changing spouses does not make the old issues go away.

Your MLC spouse has believed that their new OW/Om is their "soul mate" and there old issues have dissapeared. Trust me, it's just a matter of time before your spouses issues will resurface their ugly head again.

Learn to be open to change and welcome it as part of your growth.

Love,
Paul


Last edited by M Go Blue; 01/29/07 09:46 PM.

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Hello to all who wish to share and learn.

Please post about any lessons you have learned while going through the experience of your spouses MLC.

My beliefs have changed dramatically over the years, and especially since the seperation with my xw.

What I have come to understand and believe is this; "By the choices we make, we create our own reality."

I've learned to stop blaming others for my problems. Why? Because I have finally realized that I have played a big role in creating them. Through my thoughts, my behaviors, my attitude and my actions I create the world in which I live.

If I don't like where I am at in life, all I need to do is begin changing my thinking, my behaviors, my attitude and my actions. Over time, my world will begin to change. What is required is PATIENCE and PERSEVERANCE.

I've also thrown in a little PROZAC to help me.

There are no magic bullets or quick fixes to the problems we have been a part of creating for 10, 20, 30 years or longer during our marriage. To bring about positive, and long lasting changes for the good will take time and perseverance.

What I have learned is that I cannot change or fix others. Especially my XW. As much as I tried, I finally had to "let go."

My attempts to find the solution to my XW's MLC problems only led to great FRUSTRATION and DISSAPOINTMENT.

My belief is that the lesson for me in dealing with my XW was to learn to "let go and let God."

When I finally discovered this truth, my life changed for the better. Becoming un-stuck from trying to save my marriage, and turning my attention to myself and my own spirituality, opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibilities.

What beliefs have all of you held onto?

What beliefs don't seem to work anymore?

What beliefs have you outgrown?

What beliefs are you beginning to question?

What beliefs keep you stuck from "moving forward?"

Today's gift from Hazelden on January 25th is very enlightening.

Today's thought is;

Dissapointment and Frustration

"Many of us, whether we are conscious of it or not, create much of the unhappiness we experience. Our dissapointments are the result of our own negative or limited thoughts about ourselves and our world. What are some of those limiting thoughts, those subconscious beliefs, which keep us from experiencing joy and wholeness?

One of those beliefs is that we cannot be fulfilled unless we are loved and accepted by those who are the victims of our past experiences, that we are too old or too set in our ways to change. Still another false idea is "It's a catastrophe if things don't go my way!" Then, too, there's the self-defeating attitude that to love is to lose, so I'd better prepare for the worst to happen because it will.

Two more irrational beliefs are, I have no control over my happiness and I want life to be easy and without hassles; therefore, I'll avoid discomfort or any new committments.

TODAY I will see each disappointment in my life as a challenge to discover the negative or limited beliefs which keep me from seeing myself as a person of unlimited resources and potential."

Today's thought comes from the book, "The Reflecting Pond" by Liane Cordes.

I think many people believe that if they fail to get their spouse back from MLC land they are a failure. This is the furthest thing from the truth.

In life, there are no failures. Only learning experiences. I have learned the most from experiences that most people would consider as failures.

Everyday is a new opportunity to "begin anew." As long as you keep getting up every morning, you cannot fail. Failure is not an option.

If the door closes on your current marriage, there are unlimited possibilities for a new door opening in the future.

There are over 6 billion human beings on earth. If you lose your spouse to divorce, that leaves you with 6 billion more possibilites in finding a new soul mate. I think the odds are pretty good in finding someone to love you and enjoy life and all it has to offer.

So what are your beliefs that might be holding you back? What are your fears about change?

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,353
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,353
Hey Paul!

Where did you go? I finally understand what I am going through... I am dealing with supressed emotions. I couldn't figure out why I had been feeling just fine, then only turn around the very next day and feel overwhelmed, anxious,and tearful. It's taken me a long time to allow myself to surrender to my emotions while allowing them to flow, and maybe the reason I am just now dealing with all those emotions I suppressed from several different years through out my life.

From what I've been reading and trying to understand, in order to become whole, we need to "cleanse" ourselves of these suppressed emotions too. Don't know if it is true or not, but it did make sense to me.

I'm just wondering how much longer it will last? There could be decades of emotional quagmire built up within my heart and soul. Heck, if I knew this was going to happen this way, I would have bought shares in Kleenex!

I came across a nice website while in search of information for what I had been experiencing. For a while now, I've been worried my gentics had caught up with me, and I was turning into my Mother. No, it wasn't a nice revelation to say the least. However, there were a few key factors I realized I was missing, hence the search.

Anyway, take a look, I hope you enjoy.

http://www.breathwork.com.au/articles.htm

God Bless

Love,

Laughing


Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you.........
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Laughing

I'm glad you are coming to an understanding of what you are going through. When you reach a level of higher consciousness, everything begins to make sense.

I believe we all are dealing with surpressed emotions, whether we are conscious of it or not.

The emotions we are feeling while dealing with our MLC spouse are the same emotions we felt when we were children. The emotions, the feelings are the same.

Much of what we experienced and felt as children is buried within us. For the MLC spouse, these emotions have come to the surface and are very raw. These emotions and feelings are causing them great pain.

The reason for them running away is their attempt to avoid the pain and thinking by running away it will disapear. Reality is, it will not.

This pain will folow them for the rest of their life, until they face it head on. They can not drown it in alcohol, smother it with food, lessen it's grip on them by shopping, gambling working more hours or having sex. These are simply "drugs of choice" which the MLC spouse believes is the answer to heal their pain.

You to have emotional pain from the past, just as all LBS do. Most LBS think the issues are with their MLC spouse. The truth is, the issues and emotional pain from the past are within them as well as their husband or wife.

I realize I am no different than my XW or my current wife. Each of us have our own bagage from the past. The issues for most of us are much the same.

As children, we often did not get our NEEDS met. We felt rejected, abandoned, alone, not good enough, unloved and many other negative emotions on some level. Some of us experienced these emotions and feelings on a very high level as our parents were either alcoholics or had other addicitions. Every family was dysfunctional to some degree.

Our parents, and their parents before them did not know how to deal with their emotions and feelings. We've never been given the guidebook to dealing with human emotions and human interaction.

All most of us had was what was past down from previous generations through outdated and misunderstood beliefs. We believed these understandings of our emotions and learned to supress them and not face them head on.

Why did we do this? Fear and doubt. It is the world we came from and have lived in for far to long.

The new world in whcih we are evolving is filled with love and trust. That is what has been missing all these years.

Today's world is still filled with fear and doubt. Fear and doubt are very powerful and are used by people to control others.

Fear and doubt is what "external power" thrives on in controlling and manipulating others to get the outcome one wants.

External power no longer works. It is being faced by great resisteance worldwide. The uprisings we see across the world are all about people fighting back from being manipulated and controled.

The people of the world are going through their own MLC individually and collectively.

The whole world is going through a major transformation or conscious awakening. The United States is meeting major resistance in all parts of the world by our attempt of external power by means of manipulation and control of others to get the outcome we want. We believe we are 'right" and know what others want and need. What others want is to be understood, to be listened to, to be respected, to be valued and appreciated as important, to be allowed to have their own beliefs even if they differ from others.

These are the sdame needs of our MLC spouses.
The world is speaking up just like our MLC spouses and saying "No more." Our MLC spouses are fighting back to be heard, listened to, validated for their feelings and trying to gain respect for themselves.

The pain is so deep and strong that people are acting out towards others to heal the pain that is within them. Our MLC spouses are known for acting out with their words and behaviors that hurt us in their attempt to heal their pain.

They believe, subconsciously and maybe consciously, that in order to lessen their pain they need to cause pain in others. It initially makes them feel better, but eventually they realize that by hurting someone else, they are actually hurting themselves as well.

We are all connected. What I do to others I am doing to myself. What goes around comes around. Sound familiar?

What we project, is what's returned to us. If we project anger, than ager comes back to us. If we project love, than love comes back to us.

As we give, therefore we shall recieve. It is a universal truth that can be seen and used in all aspects of our lives. The more I give, the more I recieve.

My love that I project to others comes back to me tenfold. For me to experience love from others, I first have to give love to others. You can not recieve what you do not first give.

We withold love from people when they don't meet our needs or expectations and then complain when they don't love us back.

When the MLC spouse drops the bomb on us we are in shock. After the shock wears off we enter into anger and resentment. Projecting our anger and resentment towards our MLC spouse only brings more of the same.

I know this to be true from my own experience. It took me a long time to realize that my anger and resentment towards my XW was like putting gasoline on the fire. Around and around we went, each one of us trying to control the other.

I have a lifetime of built up emotions that have needed releasing. It is a continual journey to heal ones soul. Baby steps right.

Their is no quick fix to our problems. Why? Because they are not problems, they are opportunities for learning, growing and evolving. And that is what life is all about.

I hope you continue to learn, grow and evolve to have the full life experience in which God intended for us. Our experiences are not a mistake. There are no mistakes, only opportunties to experience the things in whcih we can learn the lessons we are suppose to learn.

Does this make sense?

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,353
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,353
Yes Paul, it all makes perfect sense to me.

Fear has been a way of manipulating people from the dawn of time. I was told by a very intelligent, lovely lady, that fear was the tool used by Satan. It was his way to usurp hope. Without hope, we often succumb to fear. From my experiences, living with fear has been hell. I've also been told most of our anger comes from fear, the fear of being hurt, rejected, ignored, embarrassed, used, betrayed, etc. all those feelings we learn or perceive early in childhood.

So it seems, most of us arrive at midlife, with our childhood or life's baggage in tow. As almost to split the population, one segment faulters to fear, and runs from reality, while the other seems to reach out to hope, faces reality head on. Holding on their hope, they find their true selves, and are rewarded with peace and understanding, much earlier than those who choose to run.

Hmmmm, I have a lot to think about.... but first, I am a chaparone at the 8th grade dance this evening, I must prepare!

Take care of you, God Bless you and your family.

Love,

Laughing


Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you.........
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Laughing

My We are What we Are thread has been locked so I thought I would bring this one back to the top and continue on with "Moving Forward II."

angelica

I wanted to answer your questions from my locked thread.

I had posted; "There are so few MLC spouses that have returned to their marriages, and the ones that have, I highly question if they are really working on healing themselves or that they returned our of feelings of guilt and shame."

Your question;
"Could you let me know where you got your stats on this?"

I have no statistics to share. This is something that I feel, with no proof to back it up. When I say so few MLC spouses have returned home, I'm referring to what I have seen on this board since 1999.

If you look at those listed under the "Success Stories" of Midlife Crisis forum, you will see there is a small number compared to the number of LBS who have posted hear over the last 7+ years that I have been involved with posting.

Of those who have returned home, we don't know how their relationship is going today, nor do we know if their spouse will not have further issues down the road. The same issues he or she had during their MLC.

My refernce to MLC and Addicitions is that the person going through a MLC has some form of an addiction. It may ne alcohol, drugs, sex, shopping, gambling, OW/OM or what ever they have chosen as their "drug of choice."

I have no formal training in physchology, counseling nor do I have a college degree. I am a remodeling contractor.

That being said, I am probably not professionaly qualified to speak on the subject of addictions, relationships, human behaviors, emotional issues, depression, affairs, Mid Life Crisis or any of the many topics I speak to.

I've lived on this planet for 53 years and have had many personal life experiences in the areas I listed above. I've been seeking counseling for over 15 years and have read numerous books on Affairs, Depression, Mid Life Transitions, Divorce, Marriage Relationships, Spirituality, Emotional Awareness, Self-Help.

I am no expert. I only share what I believe to be true for me. It is what resinates inside of me. All of what I read I don't agree with.

Much of what I have believed in the past is no longer true for me today. I do not hang onto my beliefs. They are forever changing.

What I share comes from within me. It is what works for me in understanding life and why I have experienced all the things I have, and all the things that I will in the future.

I am continually becoming spiritually awakened. My emotional, physical and spiritual parts of who I am are becoming more sensitive to everything around me. My conscious awareness has increased ten fold over the last 7+ years.

I believe that everything is connected. MLC, addictions, depression as well as other human conditions are connected at some level. There is more similarities then there are differences in my humbled opinion.

I would love to hear about your experiences with addicts and what you ahve come to learn. By sharing, you can enlighten me to many things I probably am not aware of.

I look forward to hearing back from you, Angelica.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul - thanks for your post. I am not sure that these boards are a particularly good statistical basis for a number of reasons.

1. It represents quite a small proportion of people in MLC, and it may not be a representative sample in itself.
2. The 'success stories' threads in themselves are non indicative - I have been on these boards long enough to have seen some reconcilations, and also posts from people who have reconciled, and come back briefly to say all is well. Their stories are not in the 'success stories' threads that I have seen.
3. Many of the people who are on the boards a long time have particularly obdurate MLC spouses or they divorce, but contiue to post for a variety of reasons - so once again people posting here are not representative of all MLC.
4. I have friends who have been particularly supportive who have been through this, and got back together. I have to say they are either faking it, or they are extremely happy. Again, not a representative sample, but some indication that it is certainly possible to have a MLC, and rebuild a marriage.

Now I am not saying that we should cling on to false hope, but equally, there is some evidence that a fair few people come out of this MLC and rebuild their lives. Equally, some, perhaps many, clearly don't. The fact is, we don't know, and so for any of us to talk with authority on this is misleading. You may well be right. My best guess is that quite a few get back together, some successfully, others less so. Much, I suspect, depends on the quality of the marriage previous to the MLC.

I am seeing a therapist who does beleive that there is such a thing as MLC, which occurs for a variety of reasons, and which people can and do come out of, though often not without professional help. [Although cynically I suppose he would say that!].

I enoy your posts, and wish that there was more systematic study of MLC, rather than the anecdotal material that we all tend to peddle, mainly because there is little else to go on.

Angelica

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
I, like Angelica, love to read your posts and gain much knowledge from them. I would like to add to the post about the number of MLCers that reconcile. I come from a small town of about 700. Of course, there are more people in the rural area.

S20's best friend's parents were divorced for 2 years and remarried. They have been remarried for 2 years. In a couple of weeks they will be going out to celebrate the anniversary of the first time they met 25 years ago. The wife told me that this was H's suggestion and he had never made that day important before. They tell me they are happier than they have ever been. She is the one that went through the MLC and said that the day their D was final, she could not stop crying. She was in a R with another man and one day realized that she still loved her H and was making the biggest mistake of her life. She said they needed this to happen. She told me that the only thing that she regretted was hurting the man that she got involved with and hurting her H and children.

S17's basketball coach's (from freshman year)wife heard about H and I. She took me aside at a basketball game and told me not to give up. She and her husband had separated because of some abuse issues. She went through some MLC issues after she left him. He had attended counseling and did everything he could to deal with his problems but she refused to reunite with him. They were D and he didn't give up for a long time. She got involved with another man after they were D and was engaged to be married. Her fiance had everything she thought she deserved, big house, nice cars, toys, lots of money, loved her daughters, treated her like a queen. She was at her XH's home to pick up her daughters because her X was working, the phone rang and daughter said please get that. She answered the phone and the female voice on the other end asked is X was there. She said something in the tone of this females voice said that she was seriously interested in her X. She said all she could think of for days was that H was going to get involved with someone else and he would be gone from her forever. A few days later, she broke her engagement and asked her X if they could try again. They have been remarried for 2 or 3 years and they have never been happier in their lives. She said they are truly partners and are totally in love with each other.

Another friend I met through a mutual friend and sporting events our Ss was separated from her H for two years. He suddenly didn't want to be married anymore, was not in love with her anymore, etc. He had another woman, lived with her, spent tons of money on her. They had two sons and they were young but they had married in their twenties and didn't have children until they were in their early thirties. She prayed and prayed, worked on herself, and two years later, H came home and they have been happy as newlyweds. They have improved their R and he is so glad that she stood for their marriage.

I guess my point is that not one of them had heard of this site, or MLC for that matter. I think their are many more success stories than we know as there are many more cases of MLC than we know of.

We have no way of knowing which marriages with be successful no more than we know who will experience a MLC. The point is that each of us have to decide for ourselves when enough is enough and we all have to work on ourselves during this journey and hope that our MLCers will work on themselves.


Everything happens for a reason, maybe Dad needs to find that it isn't better out there, he needs to realize how good he had it here. Maybe he will find God and that is the most important thing when he finds Him he will know he is supposed to come home.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
angelica

No, there are not statistics on MLC divorces or reconciliations that I'm aware of. But there is statistics on marriage and divorce.

Not every therapist agrees that there is such a thing as MLC. What I believe is that there are different degrees of mid life transitions. Some people go through the midlife transition smoothly without any problems. Some have struggles with aging, looking older, not being able to do all the things they used to do, not achieving all that they thought they would have at this age and other dissapointments of accomplishment.

Then there are those who struggled with life tansitions since childhood. At each major stage of growth and transition they had issues. At each stage the struggle gets harder and when they reach the midlife transition stage all hell breaks lose.

This group is what I consider having a MLC. All others are simply struggling with getting older and losing their youth.

A MLC person has core issues that go back to their childhood. A recent study has shown that teenagers who strugle with life at that stage of development, had insecurity issues by the time they were one year old.

A MLC person has issues with who they are. Many of MLC males are "Silent Sons."

People in MLC are very selfish. They are focused on getting what they want, what they deserve or are entitled to. They feel that they have given all of their life and not gotten their needs met. Now at mid life, they decide it's time they took control of their life and take care of themselves and to hell with everyone else.

This selfishness comes from their insecurity with themselves.

I do believe in all possibilities. I was a strong believer that everyone who told me my XW was moving on and not coming back, was wrong. I thought my marriage was different. I believed I could fix her and change our relationship. I believed that if I wanted it bad enough and focused all my energy on working to get my wife back, it would eventually happen. I believed if it was to be it was up to me. I believed I had the power within me to control things that were external of me.

I read every book I could get my hands on seeking the answer to MLC and how to cure this disease. Back then I thought it was a disease. Now, I believe it is a natural part of life. It's not a pleasant part of life, but it does occur for a reason.

I believe my Xw did try to connect in her own way. I didn't realize it at the time. When she did make contact, I was already involved with my current wife and had moved on with my life. Had I not been involved with someone new, maybe we would have gotten back togehter. Maybe the only reason she tried to connect was that she felt she was really losing me. It may be why she is still angry with me today, I didn't wait for her.

I did look up some U.S. Divorce Statistics to get some sense of what is happening in all marriages. Are the statistics the same if one spouse is struggling with mid life transitions? I don't know. But if you look at the statistics of long term marriages, the percentage of married people who reach that level drop as time goes on.

Percentage of population that is divorced:
1970 3%
1980 6%
1990 8%
2000 10%

Percentage of married people who reach the following anniversaries:
5th 82%
10th 65%
15th 52%
25th 33%
35th 20%
50th 5%

I'm sure death has some impact on the lower percentages for longer term marriages.

Percentage of first marriages that ended in divorce in 1997 was 50%.

Percentage of remarriages that ended in divorce in 1997 was 60%.

A person who is experiencing a full blown MLC has many issues. The reason they leave their spouse is because the pain is to great to face their issues head on. It is much easier for them to run instead of deal with the pain inside of them.

The belief that MLC lasts about 3-5 years may be for those who are going thru a Mid Life Strugggle MLS. They are far different than those who have major unresolved childhood issues. These issues don't just magically go away after 3-5 years. They remain with a person for as long as they choose to not deal with them.

I've been in counseling off and on for 15 years. I continue to deal with my old tapes from childhood and continually work at replacing them with new tapes.

A MLC spouse has deep issues that take years to heal. There is no quick fix or magic pill.

Of the people you have mentioned that have gotten back together, how long has it been since they returned? Also, how many are seeking professional counseling?

My belief is that the issues that led to their seperation will resurface again. I have read about people who got back together, only to eventually seperate again and eventually divorce. They say they tried and it just didn't work out. The thing that was missing in all thoise I have read about, is that the MLC spouse did not seek counseling to deal with his or her core issues.

I am now in the fourth year of my second marriage. The issues that were present in my first marriage are now present in my second marriage. Did I marrry the wrong person again? No. The issues that were present in the first marriage are a part of me and are still with me. My second wife has issues that are very similar to my first wife.

Life does repeat itself. There are lessons that I'm supposed to learn for me and there are lesons my wife is suppose to learn for her. We have come together to bring out those parts of ourselves that need healing.

We are seeking counseling to better understand what those parts are and working on ourselves individually and jointly. If we had continued on the same path before counseling, I'm pretty sure my second marriage would have followed in the pattern of my first. Which would lead us to divorce.

Their is no gurantee that my curent marriage will last forever. But I am much more wiser and am better equiped to do the things that work in improving my chances.

Love,
Paul

Last edited by M Go Blue; 02/19/07 03:26 AM.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
This wouldn't be a good M Go Blue post if I wasn't on board and butting in.
Thanks as usual Paul , good topic.
I don't know if there are any good stats out there on reconnections, sure some bean counter has done it, but I too am unaware of it. (Somebody want to do a Google search?)
But I'll toss in from my observations of people I've met face to face that have dealt with this sort of thing.
Excluding those that had a partner that left and married somebody else (6), of those that regreted doing that (3),excluding those I may have talked to and just didn't want to talk about it, the count is now 15 out of 24 that put it back together (either remarried to each other or recommitted to relationshiop). Shortest seperation was 6 months, longest 12 years.
Common thread was what we understand to be MLC, words used describing from the person that was in it, or person dealing with it, may be a little different, but once the wrappers were pulled away, same "internal" package - MLC as we've seen it described.
Youngest I've talked to , age 34 female, oldest 55 female (receiving end). Youngest, age 34 female (MLC at 32), oldest 65 (MLC at 58).(My best guess/ or determined on ages, don't hold me to them )
Six Stages descriptions with a 70% accuracy.
If it were a larger sampling, I'm sure we could grind out some probability but with my theoeretical math/stat background, however, my sample is way too small.
Bottom lines were - it was h@ll getting through it. Forever grateful LBS waited and was patient. From both sides that put it back together , boiled down to "A bomb between us couldn't seperate us now."
Those that didn't get it back together boils down to " He/She is still nuts. I/We miss her/him, hope they do well, glad/sad him/her is out of here."
Even shorter summation of my observations:
Those that do get it back together, strongest relationship that can be had.
Those that didn't, very sad people are those that didn't get through the tunnel fast enough, and their LBS moved on.
Happy people moved on because they realize now their formers probably won't ever make it out of the tunnel or just didn't care what happened to them.
How's that for a complete 360 degree view and no real answer?
Well, there isn't one real answer because we are all different, and so is our sitches.
But that doesn't mean we cannot be supportived of one another.
That's why we are here.
Darn good bunch on the boards.

So, does that hold you back ? was one of Paul's questions.

Sure does. Put two people in a new relationship that have had to deal with former MLC spouses, oh do we take it really slow.
Hear that egg shell start to crack? RUN FOR THE HILLS!!
And we make few running steps but have sense enough to say "Enough!".
Recompose.
Life goes on.
Baby steps.
Turn around.
Hug someone new that has been placed into your life.
It's in His hands.
It's OK.
Either way, it's just fine and so are you.

Peace.
.
And that is the way it is.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
I would like to make it clear I had not read Paul's post above, nor was it posted at the time I was busy responding.
M Go Blue's post had some stats in it, I suggested a Google search in my post.
In no manner should this be construed as a slight to Paul.
It just so happened that I was drawing upon my own past notes, which took some time, and simultaniously, Paul was making a post.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul, Thanks afor your long and interesting post, and the trouble you have taken in replying. I have also read Goinbatty's post, and largely agree with what is said there.

The stats on marriage and divorce are interesting: currently around one third of divorces, as I understand it, occur within 7 years of marriage. With regard to second marriage, they are much more likely to succeed if each partner was unattached before starting the new relationship.

What is unusual about what I would call a true MLC is that the marriage was happy, prior to MLC, and the bolt came out of the blue for the LBS. [ I do not think that this is because LBS are stupid or complacent.] That theme of a 'bomb' comes over and over again through these boards, and elsewhere.

In additon to being extremely selfish, the MLCer rewrites history, to the extent that they say things that are demostrably false. Obviously one cannot argue with a perception 'I never loved you' even if the evidence in the form of gestures, letters, and other behaviours suggests that this isn't true. But they truly try and rewrite facts, which is frightening.

Part of MLC is midlife transition, but in MLC [IMO] it is compounded by issues arising from childhood emotional abandonment, and in some cases abuse. This is another common theme that runs through these boards. Of course not every abused person has a MLC. Some seek counselling, and help because they have enough emotional intelligence to know that they have problems. Others are simply more resilient.

I believe that two contributory factors as to whether people reconcile successfully, is the strength of the marriage prior to MLC - that is there is really something worth hanging on to, and not just a relationship of time and habit - and the depth/extent of the emotional damage. Clearly those that seek help will tend to move on more successfully, whether to reconciliation, or with their own lives. Seeking help is a recognition of a problem that lies within rather than continuing to blame everything on externalities, and seek solutions outside.

No, not all therapists believe that MLC exists. It took an Austrailian doctor to swallow a beaker full of ulcer creating bacteria to convince the bulk of the American medical profession that this was the main cause of ulcers, not stress, despite well conducted clinical trials. Just because a profession doen't recognise a pathology, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It may not, but if it doesn't I do wonder what on earth is going on all around me in my own and other people's lives.

What is important is to heal ourselves. Whatever my WAS does, I want to make good decisions, and live as truthful and fulfilling life as possible. I believe that we could reconcile, but that this is not inevitable. It depends largely on him at present, although I sense that I am moving on too. In six months time I may feel differently. So, in my case I am not sure he will return, nor am I clinging to that hope. Equally, I am not as pessimistic as you about a fairly good success rate overall - without wishing to encourage false hopes.

In my experience, and there was been some UK research, reconciliation is just as likely to fail because the LBS has not fully dealt with their issues, than becuase teh WAS does not wish to work on the r [and their problems]. Working on the r can take many forms, including personal therapy, couples counselling.

This is a good debate, and point to the need for some good empirical research on the subject.

Angelica

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Goinbatty - I did not construe your post as a slight to Paul, as i hope he did not, either, but an interesting gloss. Your experiences, conincidentally, largely exchoed my own.

My reply to Paul took on board what you had said. I don't fundamentally disagree with Paul, It is more a question of emphasis, I think.

Good discussion.

Angelica

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Goingbatty

You are never butting in and I always appreciate your insight.

My own perceptions don't always turn out to be true. There are times when I am WRONG and stand corrected.

See, a former MLC person can say that they sometimes are WRONG.

There may be a much higher percentage of people who do get back together than I'm aware of.

My mom went through a MLC and later on, so did my dad.

My dad moved in with the OW during his but eventually moved back home. My parents celebrated a 50th anniversary together before my moms eventual death.

Were they happy? Probably in their own way. My mom had many issues that she struggled with until the day she died. My dad has never really dealt with his issues, he keeps them to himself.

Maybe the biggest factor on whether couples get back together is whether the LBS is still available when the MLC spouse wants to give it another try.

My XW visited me at my office while we were in the process of divorce and said to me; "You don't even care anymore?" I simply shrugged my shoulders and did not give a verbal reply. She then said; "I might as well drive my truck into a tree." I didn't reply to that comment as well.

Why did I not comment? Out of fear. Fear that if I did say I still loved her, that she would reject me and hurt me all over again.

I believe her anger today is associated with my rejection of her when she attempted to re-connect. It is my belief that she feels while I went through my own MLC and affairs, she stayed with me.
She has said she stayed because of our children, not because she loved me.

Now that the shoe was on the other foot, she feels I abandoned her. With her MLC, she moved out of the house.

In my MLC I did not leave the marriage physically in terms of moving out of the house, but I was detached emotionally.

My XW has a lot of resentment that I did not wait for her. At least this is my sense, and may be my own fantasy that she still is in love with me.

I do have a feeling inside of me that my XW and I will reconnect at some later point in life. Will it happen? I don't know. Could it happen? Absolutely. As long as both of us are still alive, anything is possible.

None of us know what the future will bring. My current wife may decide to divorce me, she may become ill and die. There is a good chance that at some time in the future I will be single again. There is also a chance that I may decide to divorce my current wife, or that I might drop dead from a heart attack and that will take away all possibilities of me getting back together with my XW.

I've looked back at my life and connected the dots. It is quite fascinating to see how people and experiences are connected. My current wife and I were in 1st and 5th grade together. We graduated from high school together.

In our senior year, she broke up with her boyfriend and I broke up with my girlfriend. Those two got together and began dating.

My current wife approached me with interest, and as she tells the story, I was to hung up about my Xgirlfriend and barely gave her the time of day.

My current wife lived about a 1/2 mile from where I grew up. She married my childhood friend who lived 3 doors away on the same street.

Her husband worked for the post office. I ran into him at the local lumber yard years ago and he said he was thinking about going into business. The same business that I was in, remodeling.

He wanted to know what I thought, whether he should do it or not. I told him, by all means go for it. Don't get to the end of life and have regrets that you didn't do what you wanted and had a passion for. Live life and take chances, and don't look back. Everything will work out.

In 1993 he was diagnosed with a blood cancer. He decided to close his business to lessen his stress, and came to work for me. Steve eventually died in 1997. He had taken the risk and lived life having avoided regret of never pursuing his dream of owning his own business as a remodeler and builder.

My wife and I crossed paths in the summer of 2000 at a little league baseball game that a friend of hers invited her to. Her friend told her that I'm usually there watching my nephew play. My nephew is the son of my XW's brother, who works for me, and has for over 20 years.

I was seperated from my XW and the divorce was in procees when I crossed paths with my current wife. As they say, when one door closes a new one opens.

What is interesting from my end of crossing paths with my current wife the evening of the baseball game. I was home laying on the couch trying to decide on whether to go watch the game or just stay home. I was tired and really didn't feel like going, but a voice inside of me said, go to the game, get your lazy self up off the couch and walk down to the ballpark.

Well I listened to that voice and the rest is history.

Had I not listened to or acted on that inner voice, I may very well have reconnected with my xw. But, I chose to move forward and let go of all expectations of my XW returning. I took a chance and decided to live life now, enjoy it while life was present, not wait for someday to appear.

Sorry for the long post. I'm not sure what point I was trying to make, other than life evolves, and you need to live it each and every day. We don't know how life will eventually play out, but we are in control of whether we are happy and living life on purpose.

Love,
Paul
As I have connected many dots in my life since childhood, understanding why things occured and what the lessons were for me, I sometimes want to know the "rest of the story" before it unvails itself. It's like reading a book about your life and wanting to go to the last chapter and see how it all turns out.

Life is a mistery.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
Thanks for the post Paul.
Hope you did not take it I was implying you were wrong. That was not my intent, rather just "reporting" my observations and the kind people I have come across in my journeys that opened up enough to talk about this topic, how it turned out for them , or the works still in progress. I would not hold to my observed ratio of 15/24 because there are many I am sure I've conversed with that just didn't want to open up about it (or could not).

A few years back there was a nice lady I would have a casual conversation with when our paths infrequently crossed. I could tell something very deep was troubling her. That occurred over a year and half and we had maybe a dozen short conversations.
One day she finally opened up describing her estranged husband and his actions/inactions, as I listened I realized he fit pretty well into the MLC pigeon hole, but a bit extreme. She had gotten a restraining order several months back.

Those pieces of paper don't help much when someone is intent on acting on their twisted views.

Two weeks after our conversation he shot her on her front porch.

He got life without perole.

I don't count her in the MLC "stats" I gather from face to face encounters.

But that sure effected me. I give a lot of space when I see my x anywhere near me.

Because as angelica pointed out in her well written post above, the history rewrites can be so far beyond literary license. Those that have felt obligated to "report back" on my former and her yarns, know better and quickly understand she's "remembering" some other (alien?) life, and certainly not the one we had in reality.

I am all for listening to our inner voice, but would sure run away from an inner voice of one in MLC.

Great topic, thanks to all the other posters.

#939694 02/20/07 12:22 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Scouby

I'm glad you took the time to read Silent Son's. I would suggest it to others who might feel their husband is a silent son, as it will help you to better understand why your husband is behaving the way he is.

It is troubling to see the impact parents have on their children and the issues they create for them to deal with in adulthood.

I realize my parents did the best they could. They simply acted out the roles they had seen their parents play. The MLC spouse is mirroring the experience he or she had as a child during midlife.

Life does repeat itself. I've witnessed my own life going in circles, spiraling, forward and backward, side to side, up and down and 100 million other directions.

Life is a journey, it is continually changing. Why is it we want life to remain the same? We want to go back to our old marriage, even though it was not working for our MLC spouse.

So many people believe that their spouse was happy prior to the "bomb." I'm sorry to say, they were not. They were wearing the "mask" of happiness.

Inside of the MLC spouse things were a stirring and brewing to the point where they were going to explode if they didn't do something.

Sometimes we choos "flight" to deal with our "fright." We try to run from the awful feelings and memories inside. We think that if we run fast enough and far enough from our inner pain, it will be left behind.

Truth is, this internal emotions that the MLC spouse struggles with can never be left behind with the LBS. It will follow the MLC spouse wherever they go.

They can not escape it by seeking comfort and security with the OW/OM. They can not drown it in alcohol. They can not smother it with food. They can not numb the pain with drugs. The sexual high will only mask this pain for a brief moment of time before returning to eat at their insides.

The MLC spouses core issues lie within themselves. Unfortunately, they believe that the issues are external and they start with the person they married.

If only they can get away from the person that is bring them so much pain. To the MLC spouse, they don't realize the pain is associated with their past. To them, the pain is in the present, and the person to blame is the one closest to them in the present. Their spouse, is the scapegoat for all that troubles them. It is their reality.

When you can come to understand this reality, it is time to "let go" and focus on yourself. The struggle with a MLC spouse is a long uphill battle. Their is no quick fix or simple solution.

If you listen to those who were successful in getting their spouse back, I would guess that they "detached with love" and moved forward with their life, by taking care of themselves first.

A MLC spouse is not an emotionally and spiritually healthy person. If the LBS remains emotionally and spiritually unhealthy as well, they will not appear to be a person the MLC spouse would care to return to.

The key to having the best chance to get your spouse to return to the relationship, is to focus on you, make yourself physically, emotionally and spiritually healthy. Without doing that, your MLC spouse will not be as attracted to you.

And if your MLC spouse chooses not to return to the relationship at this time, you will have improved your own self esteem and become more whole as a human being and will attract other human beings who seek a special person like the one you have become.

Do not do these things with the sole purpose of getting your spouse back. Do these things for you. Why? Because you will feel tremendously better and will begin to see the beauty of life and all the love that is around you.

My life could have remained in the black whole, but I found the courage to focus on myself, look at myself from the inside out, and work on healing myself.

I am still working on healing myself and probably will until the day I die. Someday's it's hard work. Someday's it's great to discover parts of myself that I didn't know existed.

Life is a journey and it should be filled with discovering the "lessons of life."

What are your "lessons of life?"

Love,
Paul


Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 710
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 710
Paul

I really value your post, they have helped me so much. Just after my husband and i seperated and were trying to reconcile, he told me that one of the problems was that he just wanted to make me happy and he didn't think he could do it. I told him that it was not him and that i had just got myself in a bit of a rut since D2 was born. The reconcilliation only lasted 1 day, he seemed to have this wave of depression on his face the whole time, and then ended up running to OW.

By me acteing happy and upbeat infront of him, which is what i have been doing for a while now, will this not just justify that he was right in the beginning and that in his eyes i am much happier without him?.

I dont know if you have been following my thread, but it has been 6 months since the bomb which came out the blue. Lately my husband seems to be ill alot and quite down. He is still very pleasant to me and gives me hugs and kisses when he leaves etc, but no mention of missing me and D2. Is this normal in MLC?. I also wanted to add that i have been reading some of Silent Son and my husband definantely shows traits, he was always a conflict avoider keeping his feeling to himself. He still does this now.

Nicky


Me 34
H 33
D3
together 10 years
married 2 years
Bomb 22/8/06 (I feel empty) OW involved
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Batty

No, I didn't take your post as saying I was WRONG. Much of what I speak to comes from my own personal observations.

What I see, hear and sense is processed by my own filters of life experiences whcih gives me a curretn understanding of what I am experiencing at the moment. It is what I know and believe at this moment. Each day I experience more and learn more, than my beliefs change.

To me, everything is perception. My observations and perceptions can be very different from yours. It is not a wrong thing, it "just is."

Sometimes we believe that if something is written, then it must be the truth. I've looked at some statistics on marriage and divorce and one could come up with a number of opinions explaining the statistics. Who would be right? I don't know.

I would like to share an article from Missouri Families Relationships website.

"What is the current divorce rate in the United States? Has the divorce rate changed much over the last 5 to 10 years?

The divorce rate in the United States has generally been going up throughout the 20th century until it's peak in the late 1970's. The rate of divorce has been slowly declining since that peak. In the most recent data, there were about 20 divorces for every 1,000 women over the age of 15. This number is down from about 23 divorces per 1,000 women in 1978, but it is still significantly greater than the rate of divorce during the 1950's. At that time, the rate of divorce was about 5 per 1,000 women.

The divorce rate has been climbing in every industrial country in the world. There are two significant factors affecting the rising divorce rate in the United States and elsewhere: (1) men and women are less in need of each other for economic survival, and (2) gains made in birth control allow men and women to seperate sexual activity from having children.

A variety of factors are producing the current leveling off of the divorce rate. We may be at the end of the effects produced by the emergence of reliable birth control in the 1960's, but there are also other factors. Our population is aging, and in general longer marriages are more likely to remain intact. Also, more young people are cohabitating rather than getting married. The breakup of this kind of relationship does not get recorded as a divorce."

I can definetly see that more people are choosing to cohabitate rather than marry. What was once considered taboo and sinful is now being accepted by society.

Many of the MLC spouses cohabitate with the OW/OM after the divorce. They live together in a marriage like relationship, yet it is not counted in the statistics as being married. When they breakup, they are not counted as having divorced.

My XW has been cohabitating with the OM for 6+ years. She has been engaged for over 3. They have built a house together and are on the mortgae jointly. Why don't they get married? Becuase the spousal support I pay to my XW ends if she gets re-married before 10 years after the divorce.

I don't buy into the belief that as we get older, longer term marriages are more likely to remain intact. Of the many people who come to this board, their marriages have lasted 20-30 years before seperation.

There are currently 76 million baby boomers between the ages of 42-60. This is prime midlife crisis territory. For statistical purposes the U.S. Census Bureau counts adults as anyone 15 years or older.

In the 2000 Census, here are some of the statistics;

Population 221,148,671
Men 107,027,405
women 114,121,266

The highest percentage of divorced men and women are between the ages of 35 and 64.

Men Married Seperated Divorced
15-19 3.8% .2% .1%
20-24 18.9% .9% 1.2%
25-29 44.1% 1.9% 4.6%
30-34 59.9% 2.3% 8.0%
35-44 67.1% 2.6% 12.0%
45-54 72.2% 2.4% 14.7%
55-64 77.0% 1.9% 12.6%
65-74 77.4% 1.4% 8.3%
75-84 71.9% .9% 4.9%
85 and 56.3% .8% 3.3%
older

Women
15-19 5.3% .3% .2%
20-24 26.7% 1.8% 2.2%
25-29 52.1% 3.0% 6.6%
30-34 63.5% 3.6% 10.3%
35-44 67.1% 3.8% 14.5%
45-54 67.1% 3.1% 18.o %
55-64 64.5% 2.3% 16.3%
65-74 53.7% 1.3% 10.1%
75-84 34.8% .7% 5.8%
85 and 19.4% .5% 3.3%
older

"The number of unmarried peole living together icreased tenfold from 1960-2000, the U.S. Census says; about 10 million people are living with a partner of the opposite sex. That's about 8% of U.S. coupled households. Data shows that most unmarried partners who live together are 25-34.

There are many reasons for the increase in cohabitation.
People are getting married at an older age. "Many young peole are saying marriage is not on their mind. New data from the Census 2004 Current Population Survey reflect the trend toward waiting. Women's median age at first marriage ros from 20.8 in 1970 to 26 in 2004; men's rose from 23.2 to 27."

Many retired people cohabitate so they don't lose Social Security benefits from a deceased spouse. It is becoming accepted by society.

All of society is looking at marriage differently today than it did in the past. With our increase in life expectancy, some at midlife fear being married to the same person for another 20, 30, 40 years. Some change spouses like changing careers.

In the not to distant future, the average life expectancy will be reaching 100 years. I'm sure this will continue to have have an influence on marriage in the future.

What marriage is, or is not, may be being re-difined before our very eyes.

Lot's of food for thought.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
Dear Paul,

I need some advice. My H told my d7 a few weeks ago that he was planning to have her stay with him at Ow's apt on his weekend visits. I called him on it and told him that it was unacceptable to me that he have our d sleepover at Ow's --
1. still married
2. poor example for our d
3. d barely knows Ow - puts d in uncomfortable situation
4. Advised by our d's C that it was too soon to introduce any new people into her life. 1 year POST divorce.

Found out that this past weekend - d slept over at Ow's place!
H completely disregarded everything I said. Just Monday night he told d that she MISUNDERSTOOD what he told her and that she WOULDN'T be sleeping at Ow's just going over to visit sometimes. Then he goes ahead and does it anyway! Not sure what that was all about?

My question to you is this- Do I say anything to my H? Since you have been through a MLC or your own and also dealt with a MLC S, I would value your advice on this. I'm really confused and don't know what to do. I already told him how I felt about it and he went ahead and did what he wanted anyway. Should I just drop it?

I know MLCer's don't like being told they are wrong and that they are making a mistake, so I am unsure of how to handle this.

My ultimate goal is to still get my M back one day-- what should I do?

K


Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
Paul,

Thanks for your insight. Your threads definately need to go onto the MLC Resources.

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Patty

There are many successful reconections that exist between MLC spouses and the LBS that we do not know exist. Just as their are many MLC cases that we are not aware of.

My understanding about what is taking place is far greater than what we are aware of from the physical realm. There is the non-physical reality that is in process at the same time the physical reality is in process. Both are working on the MLC person consecutively and simultaneously.

From what we can see, hear, feel, smell and taste is what we believe is all that there is. Some of us can sense that there is something more complex that exists and has a great affect on what we are experiencing, but can't explain it.

All of us are on the same journey home. Each of us were born into the world and will eventually return to our Creator. Their is no right or wrong path home, as any path will take us there.

What ever path we choose, it will be filled with experiences in which we have the opportunity to learn the lessons we were sent here to learn.

Some of us wake up and realize this reality while others will sleep walk on their path home. I'm a believer that life is eternal and that death does not exist, except in the physical form as we know it.

I believe that our soul existed prior to our incarnation and will continue to exist after our physical body comes to rest. I also believe that the lessons we don't learn this time through, we will have an opportunity to learn the next time we return to Earth. Where we live in the physical form is the "Earth school," the place where we are given an opportunity to experience that which we know internally.

I'm a believer that God is everywhere and in all things. We can never escape God as He is always present. Even the MLC person can not escape the presence of God, even if they deny His presence.

I don't recall a MLC spouse talking about God or being spiritually connected. My belief is that a MLC person is actually spiritually "disconnected." I believe that MLC people are "lost souls." They have lost touch with who they really are.

They believe that they are their body, their mind and everything physical. They live in a world where it's all about the physical and the hear and now. As a MLC person would say, "It's all about me." The MLC person lives for today as they believe tomorrow might not come.

A MLC person believes they are greater than anything and everything. Even God. They have gone so long without feeling good enough and denying their own needs that they seperate themselves from anything that is connected to a Higher Power.

A MLC person is very selfish and is trying to control everything and everybody in their physical world. They believe they have the power to bring about changes that will bring them the happiness that alludes them.

This is a false belief. Happiness does not come from "External Power", only more pain and suffering.

Happiness comes from "Authentic Power" the alignment of the personality with the Soul.

A person in MLC is a person whose personality and Soul are in conflict with each other. The personality is acting out to take control in seeking the happiness it desires.

Eventually, at least hopefully, the MLC person will realize that by trying to control everyone and everything around them does not bring happiness but more pain and suffering in whcih they are trying to escape.

Ultimately, the MLC person will come to realize that through the choices they have made, they have created their own reality. The reality they have created is not what they were seeking.

With this higher level of consciousness, the MLC person will come to realize that they need to make different choices if they are going to get what they need and seek.

Being selfish will not bring the love, appreciation and respect that the MLC person desires. it will only push it further away.

In time, the MLC person will realize that in order to recive love from others, you first have to give it. It is one of the universal laws of cause and affect. As you give, therefore you shall recieve.

I hope and pray that your H "get's it" before it's too late to return to the person that can give him what he needs.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,391
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,391
Hi Paul
Glad to see that you are still sticking around and helping the people on the MLC forum.
I saw my X_h and his wife for 2 days at my older's son's wedding.
I must say after 6 years he still has the deer in the headlights look.
We didn't speak at all.
I did notice him watching me.
I was so at ease, and enjoyed myself.
He was like a cat in a dog pen.
The new wife hung on him like someone was trying to take him away from her.
I have enjoyed reading your post.
So please continue.
Take Care of yourself
God Bless


[color:"red"][b]Pam[b][/color]
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
K,

what do you mean when you say you are "unsure what that was all about?" He lied to you and your daughter, right? That's what that is. Lies. Again. You cannot make him realize he is wrong or make him feel guilt. IF he is capable of that, it won't be b/c of anything you say to him. So, pick your battles. Doesn't mean to let this go. But what did your L say about her not being there overnight? Is it enforceable? And IF your H heard the c say d7 should not be there, well, did he actually hear the c say that? Maybe he didn't believe you when you said that. Maybe HE needs to hear it from "an authority", and not you. Seems what you tell him really doesn't stay in his head for long....on its' way out the other ear.
HOw are your GAL efforts and the other girls doing?
j-


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Damn Paul, ya made me cry with the Lost Souls post. We need to bump that to Michele to put in a future edition of the DB books.


"I made the wall of shadow draw back,
beyond desire and act, I walked on.

Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost,
I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
25ymlc,

My L has been out of town for a couple of weeks so I haven't had the chance to talk to him about it.

H did hear d's C say that it was too soon for either of us to introduce d to anyone new in our lives. C said 1 year POST divorce before anyone should be introduced. H was sitting right next to me when the C said it. He followed the C advice for several months, but I guess now HE has decided d is ready.
The C has offered to write a letter to give to my L saying just that-- but I think it would be just prolonging the inevitable. Once our D is final I won't have any legal right to keep Ow away from d anyway.

I have to agree with you that maybe giving H and Ow have a DOSE of REALITY is the best thing that could happen. Maybe it won't be so FUN once our d is spending every other weekend with them. Ow will probably get jealous that she has to share H with his d. This is why Ow said she left her xH b/c he paid more attention to their kids than her and these were own HER kids! Do I think she is the best role model for my d - Not at all....., but not much I can do about it unless she posed a danger to our d in someway.

What I am questioning is if I should tell H that I feel very disrespected and disappointed by his actions. I just can't seem to get it through my head that my H doesn't care what I think or feel so why bother! Maybe just for my own sense of dignity.

My older girls are doing fine. D14 has some friends over tonight , she is on winter break from school, D18 went out for Mardi Gras downtown with a few friends- will be home later, d7 has a friend sleeping over. Riley - Oh, he is our 4 year old black lab, he is enjoying all the company. He thinks he is a person!

Thanks for checking in on me,
K

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
Mardi Gras?! OMG I am jealous! What are you doing at home, Keeping? Aren't you supposed to be out flashing your you know what's for BEADS?

Just kidding and trying to make you laugh. My family is from Northern La. I was at Mardi Gras in 04... This time of the year I always get anxious over not being able to be there...
Oh well... did you at least have some King Cake?

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
Paul, you hit another great point.
I cannot recall anyone I talked to in MLC or having been through it ever making reference to God. The few where the topic in conversation came close either avoided or quickly changed the subject. I will agree that they become spiritually "disconnected", certainly my x2 did and "dropped" her life long church attendance(I would consider that an outward sign of disconnection) about three months prior to the bomb.
I will admit that I've never "disconnected", nor would I say that having been around a MLCer made me feel a stronger relationship with God, been pretty much even throughout.
I sometime puzzle over if "prayer" or petion if you will, on behalf of those "disconnected" does much good. If they have dropped that line to the Creator, disconnected from Him, thrown Him away, well, you know where I'm going with this.
I don't need reminders of the biblical stories, I am very familiar with them.
I just get an uneasy feeling that sometimes we are not doing much good asking for intervention.

Note to Everhopeful, had some King Cake yesterday even up in these parts. Imported via UPS. In highly techincal food terms - YUM! Lasted all of 12 minutes in the office.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul - an excellent post. I remember my eldest son telling my h that he had neglected his spiritual side for years. My h is starting to acknowledge the truth of this.

I also believe that the MLCer feels essentially unloveable - this I think stems from their childhood or adolescence when the people they most depended on were essentially emotionally unavailable to them. They are broken inside, which is part of the reason why they are on an orgy of destruction of themselves, and their families, and everything that was dear to them. Some stay broken, others mend. Compassion is what we, the LBS, have to find in ourselves, whether or not they choose to return to us.

If you feel unloveable it is difficult if not impossible to love, and to receive love, which is a terribly sad state to be in.

The exercise of compassion is good for us, I believe, and for the world - not a bland forgiving of everything, but an attempt to understand of the pain that others suffer.

I agree that the phsycial realm is a small part of all of this, and that to only see that part of life diminishes us.

Angelica

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
K

I don't feel as if I'm the best person to give you advice on this subject.

But I will share my feelings for whatever they are worth. Please don't hold these thoughts as the answer, as they are simply my own opinion.

Everything you do towards your H can be percieved by him as an attempt to control him or manipulate the situation. As you know, this will bring about more anger and resentment towards you.

As a father he has rights to see his D. As long as everything he does with her is not illegal or abusive, IMO is out of your control to make it the way you think it should be.

As much as you feel your D will be affected by your H having your D spend the night at OW, she will be equally affected by your fight to prevent it. My suggestion is to "let go."

The more energy you give to something you do not want to happen, the greater chance that it will happen. By giving energy to something you give it life and feed it.

How you handle the MLC situation with your H, will have the biggest impact on your D and how she learns about values and appropriate behaviors.

You can set the standard for, honesty, trust, love, compassion, integrity, respect for life, commitment, pride, confidence, loyalty, individuality, caring, family and faith.

The "core values" that you live by will be the best gift you can give to your D. Let go of your H being the teacher of "values" for your D. He is not in a frame of mind to be the teacher, so it needs to be your role at this time.

I realize you want to protect your D. But how will she learn the values that you hold dear to your heart if she does not also experience the opposite?

We learn from our experiences. Experiencing bad things is not all bad. If it were not for the painful experiences I had during childhood, how could I have become the person I am today?

My advice is to let go and turn it over to God.

The best gift a LBS can give to their children is how well they treat their MLC spouse. Our children are watching and observing and will take what they have learned into their adult relationships.

If you had a choice, what type of relationship with their spouse would you desire for your children when they get married?

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Pam

How are you?

I left the boards for a few years and have only recently returned to share some things I have learned.

Posting on the site helps me heal and understand what lessons I am suppose to be learning from going through this experience we call life.

Some MLC spouses remain "stuck" and who knows if the light bulb will get turned on inside or not. Maybe in their next lifetime.

Your XH's wife sounds very insecure. I'm sure you XH is feeling bad inside of what he lost. He may not admit it, but I do know he is thinking about it.

What has brought you peace? If you would share your experience it would be so helpful to those who are struggling.

Hearing from thiose who have been through their spouses MLC and have moved forward with their life, are now happy and at peace, is very important to those who feel it is all hopeless.

Please share how you have overcome the craziness of MLC.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Matt

Crying is good and healthy for the Soul.

The LBS needs to grieve for their loss. I realize everyone is fighting with everything they've got to get their spouse back, as this is what we believe we should be doing. But for those who have successfully gotten back with their MLC spouse, I believe they finally let go and stopped fighting.

What you resist, persists. We give more energy in trying to prevent the thing that we don't want to happen that it actually gives fuel to that which we don't want, and it ends up happening anyways.

If I could go back and do over, I would have let my XW go and make her own discoveries about herself, about the meaning of life, and why we are here.

My actions to control, manipulate and prevent the divorce only led to it happening sooner as my XW felt this was the only way she could get the space she needed.

Our MLC spouses seperate in order to avoid dealing with their emotional pain. When we chase after them and try to pull them back to the relationship, they fight harder and run faster.

Maybe the MLC spouse believes the only way to fully get away from the grasp of their LBS, is to get a divorce? Is it not the reason for them leaving, to get away from the one they feel is the cause of all their pain?

By seperating, they thought they would escape those feelings. When we do the things we do in our attempts to get them to see what they are doing is wrong, they eventually decide that getting the divorce will make them right and feel happy. They tell everyone they were justified in getting the divorce. They make the LBS out to be this awful evil person. Our behaviors add fuel to this belief and others begin to buy into what they are saying if we are not acting with compassion and love.

If I were able to overcome my own insecurities, fear of rejection and abandonment, I might have gotten back together with my XW.

But do to the fact I was doing everything I could think of to fix or change my XW, I simply drove her further away.

If I had focused on healing myself and looked inward to why I had these feelings of rejection, abandonment and feared being left alone. I would have become a strong and healthy person who my XW could have become more attracted to.

My XW was full of her own fears and did not know how to deal with them. She chose to run from dealing with her inner troubles, as that is what made her feel safe.

Her seeing me in pain and angony only made her feel worse and kept her away. She could not take care of herself and needed to go away in order to make herself healthy and whole. By me not focusing on myself and taking care of me, only prevented any chance of us getting back together.

If the LBS really wants to get back together with their MLC spouse, the best thing you can do is take care of yourself and work on making yourself healthy and whole.

You have to become someone that has their act together and is a desirable partner. Showing signs of weakness only makes our MLC spouse want to run further away.

They are unhealthy and are not able to take care of themselves at the height of MLC. The LBS begging and pleading for them to return and take care of them only drives them further away.

The LBS does play a role in whether the MLC spouse returns. But first off, you need to grieve the old relationship as it is dead.

The old relationship is over, it has run it's course, and if there is to be a future with your MLC spouse, it will have to be a different relationship than the one you had in the past.

It is hard for the LBS to admit that the old relationship was not working. To the LBS everything was great until the bomb dropped.

Reality is, the realtionship was not working for your MLC spouse, they just didn't tell you it wasn't in a way that you could fully hear and understand.

Looking back, my XW said many things to me that were not working for her. Did I listen? Barely. Did I do anything about what she was saying to me? No. I was to focused on what I wanted and trying to get my needs met outside our marriage through my business and the associations I was involved in. The affairs I had was about trying to get my emotional needs met. I was not there for her when I was off trying to get my needs met.

Understanding what our spouses needs are and then trying to meet those needs is one of the keys to a happy marriage. Understanding what are own needs are and sharing that information with our spouse is also critical to a happy marriage.

MY XW and I were not meeting each others needs. Why? First off, we weren't sure what they were. We assumed what we thought were each others needs, but unfortunately, we were only guessing and were not doing the things that each of us really needed or expected from each other.

Can any of you LBS list what the needs are of your MLC spouse?

I'd love to hear what you think they are.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Originally Posted By: M Go Blue

Can any of you LBS list what the needs are of your MLC spouse?

Thanks Paul. I'm having a lot of trouble detaching because I'm still grieving the old relationship and not moving on.

In regards to my wife's needs, I can sum it up in one word: independence. We began dating when she was 21 and living at home with her folks. She had one other 'serious' relationship before us, but he was 29 and she was 18 at the time when they moved in together. It wasn't a healthy relationship either.

She had never lived on her own or was in complete control of her finances. There was even a point, in the beginning of our relationship, where I broke up with her because I saw that she hadn't really been on her own and I didn't want to prevent her from experiencing that. But six weeks (and a lot of phone calls) later, we got back together since she implied that didn't matter to her.

Over the course of the last eight years, I've steadily taken on the financial role of the relationship, paying the bills, figuring out our savings, etc. She never complained about this, mostly because she doesn't like the math aspect. So, it started being more of me telling her how much money we would have to spend and she really had no idea what was going on.

Take that and tie it a MLC where she's got new friends that are five years younger and like to go out drinking regularly, and she started pining for the freedom of single life. This brings us to our current situation. She moved out into friend's house, living her freedom, but I'm still handling all the finances. I'm preparing to change this, however, with re-financing our home mortgage under just my name and getting our joint accounts separated so she can start her own financial freedom.

When (PMA) she comes back, I intend on bringing her into the financial side of the marriage a lot more so she feels like a partner instead of a employee. I just hope that she will want to work with the finances since she was always happy to just dump the receipts on me and let me do the math...


"I made the wall of shadow draw back,
beyond desire and act, I walked on.

Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost,
I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568


*Disclaimer* It has taken me several hours to write this so if it seems like I am rambling or the trains of thought sort of trail off, please forgive me.


Hi Paul and everybody ,

I always love your posts. If I could just chime in for a bit … I agree completely with what you have written. Having gone through MLC I do know that I was running away. I thought that getting a d was exactly what I wanted… All of the begging and pleading that H did in fact made him seem weak and that was just the reason why I was running. SILLY ME. The problems were inside of me all along.

Anyway, once they prayed me out (the they being my SIL and friends) of MLC, H was gone and he had had it with me. He said that we were married too young, that he did not love me any more… you know the drill. He was not in the “stand” for nearly as long as I have been. I did the exact wrong thing… I begged and pleaded and pushed him further into what now seems to be his own private MLC. Ah, now that is love- huh?

Now I am trying out how to move forward without him because he really does seem so very content without me. He has filled his life with new friends and new activities… Much like I did. He leaves me out of everything to do with his new life. Much like I did to him. He says that he is done. Much like I did. So, in a nutshell I am trying to figure out what next for me as he undoubtedly did while I was in la la land. MLC is a peculiar thing … When in MLC you really think that E V E R Y T H I N G was wrong with your M so why would you try to save it ? As you said somewhere on here… the old M is dead. We were not meeting each other’s needs.

The very best thing that the LBS can do as you said is to become stronger. I think many here from the stories that I have read now see their MLCer surrounding themselves with unsavory or less stable people, people that are so very different than the MLCer that we once knew as our beloved H or W. So, in my opinion it would be a good thing to keep on keeping on because they do see what we are doing even if they are not able to acknowledge or accept it. Hard to put into practice but certainly worth trying.

In hindsight, I can see and hear the things that my H said I needed to change or where his needs were not being met except I was so caught up in myself or the kids that I missed the most precious clues. This is how we landed here in la la land. But, hindsight is always 20/20, right? I also believe that MLC is a sort of spiritual awakening.

In the meanwhile, I am sitting by while I watch my H try to erase me from his memory banks and it hurts but what can I do to change it other than work on myself and make things better for me and my kids? Funny, we all went to the movies on Monday nite and at one point in the movie the main character said ,”We got married young.” and my H went out of his way to clear his throat at that very minute. It was obvious to me at that moment that he is still in the anger stage even though he saved a seat for me next to him at the theater. These days, I take his mixed signals as somewhat good sign that deep down inside he is part human instead of full fledged alien. A sign that I might still be in the game, but I admit that I do not hold onto those thoughts as deeply or tightly as I used to with baded breath.

Once in awhile he will say that he misses me but I am growing a bit weary and jaded of that too as his actions do not say anything other than he is still stuck on and in himself. Nowadays I view any niceness from him as his guilt or trying in some way to keep one foot over the threshold while he is enjoying being out in the front yard. I have been contemplating moving further away from him to combat some of these tactics. I have placed him in the hands of the Almighty while moving myself out of his path. A recent 180 for me was not to call him once while he was away last weekend, not to call him once while he was away on business these past few days. I gave him a card for V day but it was not a V day card. He has the kids V Day cards on display at his mother’s. Mine was read but is still in the gift bag.


As for my H’s needs, now I can see them clearly … Intimacy and spontaneity, my confidence and belief in him as a man, financial stability, kindness and compassion, prioritizing him and our family first, gifts and feeling appreciated, learning and doing new things together and accepting his love of motorcycles. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I should go and find my thread and add some thoughts there about MLC…

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
Thank you, Paul. I enjoyed reading what you said about our souls. I have that same feeling about our journey through this life. I do agree with your ssessment of the MLC person. I have grieved the loss of the wonderful sensitive caring man that was once my H. Maybe he will return to that person. I do pray that he will whether he returns to our home or not. It saddens me to think that this the way he will be from now on.

Thank you for your kind words regarding H "getting it".


Everything happens for a reason, maybe Dad needs to find that it isn't better out there, he needs to realize how good he had it here. Maybe he will find God and that is the most important thing when he finds Him he will know he is supposed to come home.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Patty

It takes faith and the belief in all possibilities to move forward.

None of us know what the future holds. But with faith, and an understanding that all things work out in the end. Things may not turn out the way we expect them to, but they will be okay.

If what we desire is love in our life. We will have all the love we want, if we simply give it freely, with no strings attached.

If our love towards others is conditional, than the love we recieve will be conditional. As we give, therefore we recieve.

What we project towards others is what comes back to us. Simply, what goes around comes around.

When our MLC spouses behave the way they do, we tend to withold our love for them. We do this in an attempt to get them to stop their bad behavior.

By witholding our love for our MLC spouse or giving it with conditions, we in return, don't get love returned from them.

Grieving our former marriage is a process. I still grieve the loss of what used to be.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Matt

It's very hard to detach.

After being married to my XW for 26 years it was extremely difficult to let go of what had become so familiar. I had spent over half my life with her. To some extent, I was losing a part of myself.

Grieving can be a long extended process. And that's okay, as their is no right or wrong way to grieve. We all just need to grieve well and fully feel all the emotions we're experiencing.

Your wife sounds very similar to my XW. She went from living with her parents at 18 to being married. She didn't learn to be responsible on her own.

My XW started hanging out with much younger friends and went to the bar to hang out. She even invited my daughter to the bar so she could introduce her to my XW's new friends and try to find my daughter a boyfriend.

My XW also wanted her freedom. It was as if she felt like she had been in prison for 26 years and finally got parroled..

The way she was behaving, it was as if she had been released from the insane asilum to soon.

She has returned to a more normal state according to my children.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Everhpeful

Chime in more and often. You have so much to offer.

Laying in bed this morning at about 5 am thinking, which I often do, I had a thought. During this quite time is when I get many of my best enlightening thoughts.

Everhopeful, you were a former MLC person. I was wondering if you struggled before that time with the inalability to say NO, to people you were afraid would reject you, resent you, withold their love for you and even abandon you? Were you afraid to dissapoint people?

I have a sense that a commom thread that runs through MLC individuals is there difficulty with telling people NO. It is my belief that people who go into MLC are strong pleaser types.

They want everyone to accept them, like them, love them and actually fear dissapointing others. It is probably such that they felt as if they dissapointed one or both of their parents growing up. They felt as if they could never measure up to their parents expectations of them.

The MLC persons FEAR is what prevents them from saying the word NO.

A common thread that runs through MLC spouses is low self esteem. A MLC person feels as if they have no worth, they feel as if they are not needed, taken for granted and not valued for what they have given.

They resent that they have given more of themselves than is humanly possible. Finally, they say enough, NO MORE. Then as we know the MLC journey begins.

I too have struggled with saying NO. Growing up I didn't want to hurt my mothers feelings by saying no because I felt she would withold her love for me if I did.

My mom's love was conditional. I grewup feeling that I could not meet my mothers expectations of me and resented it. At least at some conscious level. At the time, I wasn't aware that what I was feeling was in fact resentment and probably anger that I supressed.

Growing up, life was a daily struggle with trying to please my mom, and sometimes my dad, to which I felt no matter what I did, they would find fault with it. Compliments on what I did or achieved were few and far between.

It seemed as if for every one compliment, I got two "that's not good enough" type comments directed at me. I became to believe that "I was not good enough."

Can you remember what your childhood was like?

Have you been a pleaser person?

Did you fear letting people down by saying NO?

You said; "I also believe that MLC is a sort of Spiritual Awakening."

That is my belief as well.

It is my belief that MLC is highly connected to our spirit, or our soul. Whatever you choose to call the energy that is within you that is connected to a Higher Power, or God.

MLC may eventually be understood as a natural process of human development. At this time, we believe that what is taking place is abnomrnal. The truth may be that this is how our Soul is suppose to remmebr that which it already knows.

MLC may become known as the development of the soul. My belief is that it is about "authentic power" the alignment of the personality with the Soul.

Our MLC spouses are trying to be who they really are. They have always tried to be what others thought they should be. They lived their life to everyone elses expectations of them. Their parents and their spouses.

Now at midlife, it's time for them to really discover who they are, and who they are not. This process is very ugly and scary to the outside observer. Especially the LBS.

I'm begining to feel that everything that I share on this board comes from outside of me and within me at the same time. How can that be? Because I was created by my Higher Power and am still connected to Him. My Higher Power and me are one. He is around me and in me at the same time.

My time here on Earth is to experience the things that I need to learn, or maybe remember that which has already been given to me.

If God has given us all the physical, mental and emotional tools to function as human beings. Couldn't it also be possible that He has given us spiritual tools for our soul to use also. Could these "tools" already be inside of us?

We are born already hardwired. Our brain, skeletal structure, muscle structure, blood system, respiratory system, digestive system, nerve system is all connected and pre-programed to work magically. We do not have to learn how to breath. We do not have to learn how to move our muscles. We do not have to learn how to make our blood flow throughout our body, travel through our lungs to get oxygen, travel through our stomoach to get nourishment, travel through our liver to cleanse itself.

Everything that happens physically happens naturally.

God has given us the ability to have FREE WILL. That allows us to think and make choices on our own. By having free will, we learn the lessons that we came here to learn.

Each of us make choices, whether consciously or subconsciously that bring about reactions and create our future. Both good and bad. What we do in the present moment, will be reflected back to us in the future.

What goes around comes around. There are no right or wrong choices, only consequences. There are no "mistakes," only learning opportunities.

We make choices, we have experiences, we learn to make the same choices or choose to make different choices in the future. It is all within our power of FREE WILL.

What we don't realize is that time and space is different than what we believe it is. Our human belief, at least for the majority, is that there is great space between things. Such as planets within the Universe. The truth is that everything and everybody is connected. The common thread that runs through all of us and all things that exist is ENERGY. God is energy and so is love. God and love are one in the same.

We also believe that time exists in the past and the future. When the truth is that time exists only in this moment. The past is gone and the future is not here yet.

Everything that is happening is happening to all of us at the same time. How can this be? Because we are all connected to each other as we all have the same Creator. What happens to you is also happening to me.

What we believe is that things happen to us. The truth is, things happen for us. How else are we going to learn if we do not have the experiences we have. So what is happening for you is also happening for me.

Would I have become the person I am today if I had not had the childhood experiences I did? Would I have come to understand all that I know, or maybe remembered, about MLC and "life lessons" if I had not gone through it myself and then eventually experienced my XW's MLC from the other side of the fence?

All of these experiences have led to the person I have become. My life journey, even though it seemed painful at the time, were acutally blessings in disquise(sp?)

Maybe I was always the person I am today and just didn't know it. Is the rose always a rose even when it is not in full bloom? Is the Sun still the Sun and full of energy and life even when it is not present at night?

Maybe what I am becoming was always within me and only needed to be uncovered. Maybe our full beauty is unfolding before our very eyes and we are evolving into something far more beautiful than we have ever imagened or thought possible?

I believe in all possibilities. Why? Because I have come to witness and understand things at a much higher level of consciousness that I never knew existed before.

As I evolve, I believe I will see even more things that I can not see at this moment. Maybe I will begin to see things with greater clarity and a much deeper understanding than I have at this moment and will move closer to peace, harmony and full unconditional love.

Well for now, I need to live in the moment. For that is all there is and will ever be.

Love,
Paul

Today, I am thankful for the experiences I have had. Well, maybe not totally thankful, as I still have issues with the past. Bit I'm working on them.

What I want to say is that things may not be as they appear. There is probably something very different taking place at this moment in time that you are experiencing. It is something that is beyond the physical realm. It is the non-physical reality that exists and is present every moement of every day.

Everhopeful, can you feel that non-physical presence in your life?

Love,
Paul


Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,557
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,557
Paul, my W has asked for a D repeatedly through out this whole thing. I have told her to go get one until this week. I have decided to take the intitive and do this myself. I think if that is what she wants, I should give it to her, perhaps by doing so it will help her see what she has lost. If it doesn't, then its for the best anyway. What are your thoughts and opinions on this?

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
braveheart

I don't know your history with your wife or current situation to give any advice on a decision that needs to be totally yours.

Do you feel you have done all that you can to restore your marriage?

Have you focused on yourself and "let go" of your wife?

Have you rerached a point where you feel life will be good whether you get back together with your wife or not?

Have you asked God for help?

Why do you think it's time for your to file for divorce?

Why now? Why not maybe six months from now?

The answer is within you. It can not come from someone else.
Only you will know when it is time to move forward without your wife.

"Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Have you learned all that you need to learn during this experience, or do you simply want the pain to go away?

Love,
Paul

Last edited by M Go Blue; 02/24/07 03:44 PM.

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Angelica

I enjoyed reading your post. You speak as an awakened one. How long have you been connected with your spiritual being?

I first came here in 1999, I was full of fear and doubt. My XW's announcement that she wanted a seperation turned my world upside down. To me, it felt like the beginning of a slow death.

While in Church yesterday during our Pastors sermon, tears flowed down my cheek. What she had said struck a nerve inside of me and I felt very sad.

I spoke to my wife last night about my feelings while laying in bed. My wife lost her husband to cancer in 1997. It has been 10 years since his passing, and he is talked about amongst her children, my children and us with great love and appreciation for who he was. He was not a saint, but he was very well like and admired.

The point I'm trying to make is that with death, we openly talk about the spouse who has passed on with our children and family.
With divorce, we avoid talking about the other spouse freely and with love and admiration. It seems at times it is almost taboo to broach the subject.

I think my children don't want to talk about their mom in my presence as they feel it my upset me. They may also feel it would be disrespectful to their mom to discuss things about her with me, the person she has so much anger and resentment towards.

We seem to live in this world where if we don't talk about it, everything will be allright. We supress our feelings and don't share them with one another. This simply leads to more ill feelings inside that we push down and bury in ourselves.

My children will quite possibly go through the same experiences with their marriage partners that their mother and I did. It's what they learned. What is learned is often played out in life.

All of us come to this board as we feel it is a safe place to share our inner most feelings. We tell each other things here that we are in great fear of sharing with those closest to us.

Why? Because of our own fear of rejection and possible abandonment. We to supress our emotional pain, just like our MLC spouse has done throughout their life.

All of us are wired to have affairs and a MLC. It is within each of us as we all have the same Creator.

There are a number of people who I have spoken with who felt that there was no way they could ever have an affair. It was their belief that having an affair was immoral and the worst thing a person could do. This is what all of them said, after they had had an affair.

Many people here believe there is no way they could ever do what their MLC spouse is doing. Yet, there will be some of you who will eventually experience your own MLC, if you haven;t already.

My XW told me, "how could you do this to me" when I told her about my many affairs. She felt that if I really loved her, I would have not done these awful things.

Well, my XW eventually had her own affairs. I'm not sure if they were physical affairs, but my belief is that there is not much difference between the two other than having sex.

An affair is still about one spouse spending time and energy with another person who they are attracted to, which takes away from the time and energy available for the spouse they are married to.

When I told my XW that they were one in the same during our seperation, she had this look of shock on her face. It was as if she was thinking, that can't be possible. If they are the same, than I am no different than you.

She is still in denial of this as far as I know. She has told my children that she met the man she is living with after we were seperated. This is not the truth.

The MLC spouse does live in their own distorted world. What they believe is their reality, even if we have a different reality.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul - I think I have been connected with my spiritual being for a long time, but the connection has deepened as I have got older. I had cancer 10 years ago, and had to face the possibility of death, and ever since then I have looked at life differently.

While any of us could have an affair, I am not sure that we could all have a MLC. I have just read a book 'The Search for the Real Self' by James Masterson. It is not a book of pop psychology, and while I don't fully agree with all it says, the central idea is that the more that we are touch with our true self the more easily we deal with what life throws at us. People who operate with a partial or full false persona are much more vulnerable and fragile, because they have a distorted view of their reality. Narcissism, which plays a big part in the MLC is particularly tricky, as the person has a grandiose sense of themself, often hiding behind an apparently quite unassertive exterior.

I am not saying that people with a propensity to MLC are better or worse, just that they are less well integrated. I was brought up in a loving family where people talked about their feelings, and loved each member for who they were. Many of the people here have that same sense of stability. We attract the more fragile people like moths to candle flames.

I think cases like yours where both partners have MLC are rarer, but I could be very wrong!

Angelica

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Angelica

Yes, when you look into the face of death, it does change your outlook on life and what it's all about.

It was the summer of 1992 when I began my "awakening." My oldest sister and her husband came to visit from Arizona. The three of us were driving back from a visit to the Henry Ford Museum when my sister said she had something to tell me.

My first thought was, she and her third husband were getting a divorce. That was not the case. She told me that her and her husband were HIV positive.

The schock of her telling me this felt like I had been hit in the head with a hammer. In 1992, becoming HIV positive was like being given a death sentence.

She told me that she had been wanting to tell me for years. In fact when the family got together in Las Vegas the year prior it was her intentions to brake the news. Her husband was sick that weekend and she didn't have the strength to tell me then.

They had both been diagnosed in 1985, when my sister was in the hospital and extremely ill. The reason they hadn't told me sooner was in those days, you kept it a secret as there was great fear about the disease and it's contagiousness. They feared loosing their jobs, their insurance, their friends and their family.

When I returned home that afternoon I took a shower. I cried the whole time while showering. The next day, I told my sister about the crying. She said, "you've started the grieving process."

This was foreign to me. I had never grieved for someone who was still alive. What I was grieving was the loss of the future. That my sister and I would not grow old together. She would not be there when the time came to bury our parents. Everything I had experienced with her in the past, her children and my children playing together, celebrating Christmas and the Holidays with family, would not exist in the future.

The biggest challenge for me ws learning to let go of the things I could not change. As much as I wanted to fix my sister and find a cure for her illness, it was not within my power.

It felt as if it was all a bad dream and the emotional pain I felt inside made me feel lost and confused. My life as I knew it, had been turned upside down. And when things would eventually settle down, my life would be much different.

Facing your own death or the death of a close loved one is a very trying time. But it is also a time of great opportunity.
My experiences with death of family members and friends and aquatences has taught me many of lifes lessons. For those who have passed before me, I will forever be greatful for what they shared with me.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
wow Paul.......;this one really reaches the core......;


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Cinders

In reading Today's thought from Hazelden the other day, it made me give thought to how the LBS is in a way going through withdrawal from the MLC spouse.

As long term marriage partners, we become "addicted" to the relationship. I know this may sound harsh, but if the MLC spouse leaves the home, their is a period of withdrawal that the LBS experiences as a part that made them feel whole is no longer present. We go through a period where it feels much like the loss of a close loved one to death.

Alcohol or drugs can fill the void that is inside of us. The "drug of Choice" gives us comfort and helps us to feel "not alone."

When our MLC spouse leaves us, we have feelings of being all alone. This seperation from the known to the unknown brings about great fear and anxiety.

If all life experiences are to teach us lessons. What is the lesson to be learned in the seperation between the two spouses?

I think Today's thought from Hazelden may help to explain it.

Reflection for the Day

Among the many gifts that we are offered in The Program is the gift of freedom. Paradoxically, however, the gift of freedom is not without a price tag; freedom can only be acieved by paying the price called acceptance. Similarly, if we surrender to God's guidance, it will cost us our self-will, that "commodity" so precious to those of us who have always thought we could and should run the show. Is my freedom today worth the price tag of acceptance?

Today I Pray

May God teach me acceptance- the ability to accept the things I cannot change. God also grant me the courage to change those things I can. God help me to accept the illness of my addiction and give me the courage to change my addictive behavior.

Todat I Will Remember

Accept the addiction. Change the behavior.

This message comes from the book A Day at a Time, by Anonymous.

Maybe all of us have some form of addiction to something. Each of us have the opportunity to learn the lesson of "acceptance" whether it's a sibling who is dieing or the death of a marriage and relationship.

Each of us will have many opportunities to learn acceptance in our lifetime. It does get easier with each new experience, but it is still something I resist and fight as I want to control or change that which is not within my power.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
Paul,

Sorry for the delay in this response. I had a few moments and thought that perhaps I would take a minute to reply. As always, your threads are so thought provoking and insightful. I feel privileged to have this opportunity to learn from you and to share here.

Well, I started this post a few days ago but somehow deleted it so I will try to gather my thoughts again …

So to answer your questions as best I can… here I go.

Yes, I have always been afraid of rejection in an almost paralyzing way to be honest. I am a pleaser largely due to never being able to meet my mother’s approval. I excelled in school but that was never good enough. I never rebelled as a kid or a teenager (I had to wait to get to my 30s to do that instead) and that was not good enough, I never did anything that would get her twisted but somehow she was always twisted with me. I never wanted to disappoint the adults in my life, in fact they relied on me heavily to be the responsible one so, I only know responsibility.

My childhood was okay. Not the best but certainly not as bad as it could have been. It was not overly loving when it came to my parents but my grandparents were always loving and caring so it sort of balanced out my wacko parents. School was the highlight of my life. I was depressed when I was not there. I hated to go home at the end of the day. I hated the weekends. Summers were okay because I got to be outside with friends … School was great and really got me through my childhood. Things did not pick up for me when I left grammar school though. My mom sent me to an all girls high school. What a mess that was. I went from one sheltered dysfunctional environment to another… I always feared letting people down and so I suffered silently and sometimes begrudgingly.

MLC to me is sort of revisiting of your spirituality. I had always gone to church and prayed growing up but somewhere in the process of getting married, working and just being too busy… I stopped and herein lies the beginning of my issues…

I believe that what my husband is going through now has been in him all along. I believe that he is getting in touch with the side of himself that he left behind or turned from when we got married and settled into grown up lives and responsible jobs. We did not have the young lives that our friends had, we were in our 20s and in jobs that it took our coworkers YEARS to get. So, we hung around an older crowd instead of doing fun and youthful things together. Now, we barely speak.

I believe that The Creator can see the beginning, the middle and the ending all at once which is why He does not stress it so much, he knows how the sitch will play itself out ultimately.

I also believe that things are not as they seem or appear. Actually, I think that because things are happening concurrently we will never really and fully understand the magnitude of our existence and experiences on this planet. If you think about it, one change in our plans for the day can absolutely impact something huge in someone else’s life. I think that something is going on with my husband but because we do not communicate, I am not quite sure that I will ever really know what he is going through. Men are less verbal than women when it comes to feelings and ways of being.

I also believe that like birth and death, MLC is something that you go through alone. No one can make it better or go away. Although there are things that you can do to make it better … counseling being one of them.

I do feel a spiritual presence in my life. I never feel alone any more although I am lonely. I feel comforted despite the fact that things are in turmoil for me right now. I have a renewed sense of hope though because I have decided to focus on purchasing a home before the new school year begins. Once that is done, I will have to make some decisions about my marriage. I believe that the Creator put this order of things in my mind because when the year began, I had planned to start the D process in March. One morning between sleep and awake, this warm feeling came over me and I woke up knowing that I should buy a house… I cannot explain it, I just know it intuitively.

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Everhopeful


I feel privileged to learn from you as well. Thanks for sharing what you have experienced and learned during your life.

I too felt as if I could not meet my mothers approval. It seemed as if she would find fault in anything I did and struggled to pay me a compliment.

My mother didn,t have high self esteem and probably didn't love herself. That's probably why she couldn't give love. It seemed as if my mom was looking for me to give her the love that she was missing inside. She wanted me to take care of her "needs."

It was opposite of what a so called normal mother child relationship should be. Of course I'm not sure what "normal" is.

There's what works and what doesn't work. It is my opinion that our relationship didn't work and created issues that I have struggled with my whole life.

I have forgiven my mom as she did the best she could with what she knew and understood. Her childhood was not a good experience for her and she was simply playing out what she had learned, or didn't learn as the case may be.

Fearing rejection has been a struggle for me as well. I want so much for people to like me, appereciate me and think good thoughts about me. My own feelings of being inadequit and not good enough has been a life long strugle to overcome.

It's something I continualy work at healing.

As I child, there were many times where my needs were not met. I was to young to take care of them myself and needed my parents to take care of them. Due to their own issues, they were not able to meet many of my needs.

From many experiences of asking my parents for something I needed and not having the need met, created many opportunities to learn rejection.

In time, you stop asking to have your needs met because you fear rejection. You don't develop "trust" of others when you can't count on your parents to meet your needs.

As an adult, I didn't trust others to meet my needs. I also didn't know how to ask for my needs to be met. I believed that I was responsible for getting my needs met, that it was not appropriate for me to ask others.

My wife and I are in marriage counseling. We have spent a fair amount of time talking about "needs" and how to have a healthy relationship with each other in asking for what we want.

I have struggled with getting to the point of what I want. I talk around it and am not direct. Our counselor is helping me to be more direct. To be more authentic.

It is a challenge breaking the pattern of my old habits and behaviors. But it is working and our relationship is growing.

Today's message from Hazelden speaks to "needs."

Today's thought from Hazelden is:

Expectations of Others

It is our job to identify our needs, and then determine a balanced way of getting those needs met. We ultimately expect our Higher Power and the Universe - not one particular person - to be our source.

It is unreasonable to expect anyone to be able or willing to meet our every request. We are responsible for asking for what we want and need. It's the other person's responsibility to freely choose whether or not to respond to our request. If we try to coerce or force another to be there for us, that's controlling. There's a difference between asking and demanding. We want love that is freely given. It is reasonable to have certain and well defined expectations of our spouse, children, and friends.

It is reasonable to sprinkle our wants and needs around and to be realistic about how much we ask or expect of any particular person. We can trust ourselves to know what's reasonable.

The issue of expectations goes back to knowing that we are responsible for identifying our needs, believing they deserve to get met, and discovering an appropriate, satisfactory way to do that in our life.

Today, I will strive for reasonable expectations about getting my needs met in relationships.

Today's message come from the book, The Language of Letting Go, by Melody Beattie.

It is my belief that MLC peolpe didn't get their needs met as a child and didn't learn how to ask for what they needed.

As an adult, they feel they have not gotten their needs met by their spouse, and eventually seek getting them met elsewhere.

The LBS is greatly shocked that their MLC spouse feels as if they were not there for them. In the LBS mind they were there for them, but they also had the responsibility of taking care of the children, the house, work and other peoples needs, they never realized their MLC spouse had needs that they were not meeting.

The MLC spouse did not know how to directly ask for what they needed. And from their past experiences with their parents, they didn't trust anyone, and felt even if they did ask to have their needs met, they would be rejected or be ridiculed for their request.

The MLC spouse has major trust issues from not having their needs met. To them, they feel the LBS knew what they needed and the LBS chose not to meet their needs or didn't care about them.

Being with LBS is not a safe place for the MLC spouse. They don't trust them as they didn't meet their inner most needs. They felt rejected, not good enough to have their needs met, as their feelings were not validated.

From a LBS perspective, the MLC spouse was not clear in what they needed or expected from the LBS. To the MLC spouse it was very clear to them in what they needed. And it is also very clear to the MLC spouse that the LBS did not meet those needs.


The MLC spouse eventually grows tired and gives up on trying to get their needs met by their LBS. For them, the answer is to leave the relationship and take control of getting their needs met by what ever works.

I'm sorry for the long post but it takes me awhile to get to the point. Just as it takes me a lot of words to ask for what I need from my wife.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 300
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 300
Just wanted to say how useful I find your posts in trying to understand this MLC rollercoaster. Thanks

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul- Another great post, to which I would like to add - I think that there is a variation on the MLC persona that fits my h and some of the others that I have seen described on these threads.

I know that I did meet my h's needs for a long period in our marriage and that he fully acknowledged this - I recognised him as damaged and needy, fairly soon after we married, but was committed to marriage, and to him, and decided that I wanted to try and make this r work - and as I have said, many of the LBS have attracted these spouses precisely because they are so emotionally strong. [Having said that he was also great fun, and a brilliant husband - that is he functioned well, provided that his emotional rock was in place]. The wise spouse of a needy partner doesn't try and 'fix' the spouse, but tries to encourage them to develop friendships, and other relationships, and to grow. Therapy is good if they can be persuaded, but most of them really don't want to open their can of worms. They are safe and happy with their partner, never mind that they are to some extent emotionally the child in the r.

With some MLCers the instability that plunges them into MLC, and teh sense of their needs not being met by the LBS is triggered by life's events,[ fear of death, being laid off at work, getting older, passed over for a promotion, parent or loved in-law dying, are some obvious triggers] and they become dissatisfied with their life BUT because their spouse HAS provided for all their emotional needs up until now, and now they are unhappy, it must be because of a deficiency in the spouse - Right?

[I agree that in a healthy r you don't look for all your needs to be met by one person - something that I recognised, and tried to persuade my h to develop stronger friendships and links, which ironically have kept him going throughout his MLC. Without these I think he would have disintegrated earlier.]

So they rewrite history, ofen very adroitly, so that only those closest to them realise the tissue of lies from the outset [He even had me believing some of the stuff, so unblinkingly convincing was he - including things he categorically denies ever having said.] The lies become more apparent to those who know them less well as the MLC progresses, and the 'story' constantly shifts to accommodate the MLCers changing perceptions as one strategy after another fails to deliver the 'promised' solution.

As an example: My h recently had dinner with some friends, and tried to ignore the fact that he had had an affair that lasted over a year as a PA, and rather longer as an EA - that is he tried to write it out of his script as of any significance, but unfortunately for him these were the friends to whom he went at the outset to tell them how much in love he was. . . . He appears to have completely forgotten this.

Angelica

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Paul once again, you really know how to clear things up for us...it helps us understand the MLC'er and to let go and let God. Thankx Paul !


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,392
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,392
Paul,

Parts of this post really struck home with me today:
Originally Posted By: M Go Blue

The point I'm trying to make is that with death, we openly talk about the spouse who has passed on with our children and family.
With divorce, we avoid talking about the other spouse freely and with love and admiration. It seems at times it is almost taboo to broach the subject.

I think my children don't want to talk about their mom in my presence as they feel it my upset me. They may also feel it would be disrespectful to their mom to discuss things about her with me, the person she has so much anger and resentment towards.

We seem to live in this world where if we don't talk about it, everything will be allright. We supress our feelings and don't share them with one another. This simply leads to more ill feelings inside that we push down and bury in ourselves.

My children will quite possibly go through the same experiences with their marriage partners that their mother and I did. It's what they learned. What is learned is often played out in life.



You have put into words some of my greatest worries and concerns. It worries me enormously that my S14 doesn't seem to feel like he can talk to me about his dad, or listen to me talk about his dad. I know some of it is that S14 doesn't like to see me get upset. But that SO reminds me of H--doesn't like to see negative emotion in others, refuses to deal with conflict and negative emotions openly. I SO don't want S14 to grow up this way, and part of avoiding it is to encourage him to talk about it all openly. Sigh. I guess I've just vented on your thread but you really struck a nerve.

I'm thinking the best response may be to face it head on--just say to S14 what you said in your post about how we treat death vs. how we treat D.
Originally Posted By: M Go Blue


An affair is still about one spouse spending time and energy with another person who they are attracted to, which takes away from the time and energy available for the spouse they are married to.


Amen. Frankly, this turning away of attention and energy pains me far more than the physical turning away...in my experience physical attention from men is pretty easy to get but the emotional attention is something else entirely!

Thanks Paul, your posts are very helpful to me.

Hugs.
AH

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
I agree, it's the emotional attention they give the OP that is most hurtful, however I do believe that it is women who find this most hurtful, men tend to find a physical relationship with the OP more hurtful....(Venus and Mars...)

Let's just hope that the emotional part of the affairs just dies once they see that they actually have no history together and nothing else in common but this particular subject....the marriage having gone wrong and having to talk about it.


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,391
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,391
Hi Paul
Sorry it took so long to respond to you.
I only check the board ocassionally.
Quote:
What has brought you peace? If you would share your experience it would be so helpful to those who are struggling.

Wow! what a question.
As you know Paul I was married for 30 years, when my X-H and I divorced.
We have been divorced 3 years now.
We do not communicate at all.
Our sons are grown and have families of their own.
If my sons choose to spend time with their father, that is their call.
It rarely happens though.
My X-H married the OW 1 year after our divorce.
The same year I had my kidney transplant.
The same year we lost our first grand-son.
You ask where did I get my peace from all the havoc,I received from my X-H.
That is an easy answer.
From the Lord above.
If you believe and have Faith, your life is a peace of cake.
Life is ever changing.
You just have to look at it from all sides.
I am enjoying my life,my job, my family,to the max.
Hope you are having a great day.
It has been storming here all day.
That's okay though, I grabbed a nap.
God Bless
Pam


[color:"red"][b]Pam[b][/color]
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
AH

Your post brought up a memory of when I was about 11 or 12. My mom had taken my youngest sister and I away from the house because my parents had been fighting. My mom told us she was going to get a divorce from my dad. I remember how I cried and begged my mom not to do that. I was so scared and in great pain from the fear that was within me.

She didn't get the divorce but there were more blowups to come in thr future. Each one brought more pain and fear.

When my mom was going through her MLC, she was out late one night when my dad came home from work. It was probably 1 am or so in the morning. I was probably about 16 at the time. My dad came into my bedroom and took my shotgun off the gun rack above my bed. I pretended I was asleep.

When my mom came home, he confronted her about being out drinking and doing who knows what. I heard later that he had the shotgun laying across the kitchen table. What his intentions were I don't know. You hear about spousal murders all the time and I can see how they happen.

When I was about 13-15 my second oldest sister took me with her to a town about 20 miles from our house. She had recieved a call from a man that said our mom was in a hotel room and was drunk and out of it.

When we got to the hotel, my sister made me wait in the car. When she returned, we went to the store to get some things for my mom. We left without her and it wasn't until years later that I learned my sister found her naked and sprawled on the bed, totally drunk.

My mom had a number of health issues while I was growing up. She had health problems while pregnant with me. sixe weeks after I was born she went into the hospital for galdbladder surgery.

over the years while growing up she was in and out of the hospital with other surgerys and was admitted a few times into a mentsal hospital. She also tried to commit suicide about three times up until I was about 20.

My life was filled with fear, rejection and abandonment. I definetly had trust issues and struggled with all my emotions that I was feeling. I felt very alone as I had no one to talk to about what I was feeling inside.

When my mom was going through her MLC my dad was working nights. She would leave the house after I went to bed. I remember feeling so scared and abandoned hearing the back door shut when she left. I would then go to my sisters bedroom crying asking if I could sleep in their romm in my sleeping bag. They would tell me, quit being such a baby and go back to your room. I was so scared and felt all alone.

There was a time I was in the emrgency room of the hospital with my dad. My mom was having her stomach pumped from taking prescrition pills in one of her attempts to commmit suicide. I remembr telling my dad that I wished she would just die. I was so tired of feeling all the pain inside of me and just wanted it to stop.


Looking back at my childhood I'm amazed how well I have done as an adult. My childhood experiences definetly had an impact on my adult life and especially my first marriage. But I have to say, the experiences have played a big role in who I am today. If it wasn't for having gone through all those painful emotional experiences, I wouldn't be as in touch with peoples emotions today and understand what a MLC person is feeling inside.

I was a "silent son" and will always be one, just as an alcoholic will always be an alcoholic even in recovery. Maybe I'm what you would call a recoverying silent son.

Everyday posting here is an opportunity for me to heal from my past and help others understand the pain that is within their MLC spouse.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,375
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,375
Paul,
Thank you for reminding us how much pain the MLCers are actually in. I am sure it is painful for you to rehash those childhood memories but I agree, I think it helps you heal to talk about it.

If you don't mind I would like to share with you and other's here to also help remind people what these MLCers had to deal with so long ago. I am sorry if this seems long.

My H has also had a very tough childhood. His father was killed by a drunk driver when he was 5 years old. From there his mother seemed to go down hill. She got married again a couple of years later to someone who ended up being verbally abusive to my H and his younger sister. She was D from him within months of marrying him.

His mother than got remarried to another man. She had 4 kids with him. From what my H had told me was he was a wonderful stepfather at first and my H was happy to finally have a father figure in his life. His stepfather unfortunately had a drug problem family and eventually the stepfather started using himself. He became verbally and physically abusive to my H and his mother. He was a very violent man and very into drugs and alcohol. My H remembers taking trips into the city with him and his mother so he could buy his new supply of drugs. He would then sit at the kitchen table and shoot up and/or snort up while everyone was eating dinner. The mother allowed this to happen in front of her kids.

Stepfather did spend some time in jail for drug related crimes. When he would come out he would be clean for a little bit only to get back into is old habits. He lost his job and the mother had to go back to work so she could support her 6 children. It came to a point that stepfather would rarely come home because he was usually spending it at his gfs house. Everyone did not know when he would show up again or what kind of behavior he would bring with him. My H knew things were getting out of hand and taught his sister, who was 9 years old at the time how to call 911 in case he ever showed up and started being violent again. Well it happened. He came home one night drunk and high as ever and started in with H mother. Everyone was asleep, including my H, who was 18 at the time. Well my H heard banging around and came around to see what was going on. He then saw his stepfather grabbing mother by the hair because she was trying to call the police on him. He ripped the phone off the wall and threw it at her. He then threw H mother down the stairs. My H came to his mother's defense and tried to fend stepfather off. His 9 year old sister came out of her room to see what was going on and my H yelled to her to call 911. She did as she was told. H and stepfather were going at it. Stepfather even reached into the knife draw at one point and was trying to stab my H. The police were on there way and my H was trying to keep his stepfather in the house so the police could arrest him. Stepfather finally broke free from my H and ran outside to jump in his car to leave. He was high and drunk and he did not have his glasses on because they broke during their fight. Stepfather took off with the police right behind him. He didn't get very far. About a half mile down the road he wrapped his car around a telephone pole. He ended up in a coma and died a week later.

Everyone could breathe a sigh of relief when he passed on. It was no way to live in constant fear of your lives. The entire family never went to counseling and everyone just moved on and seemed to forget about it. No one ever dealt with what happened.

Well about 1 week later after SF's death, H mother started seeing someone new. Who you may ask? Well get this, she started seeing one of sf's old buddies, a cell roomate from jail. She has been with him ever since. This guy is a loser and basically uses the mother. He is not a mean guy, just a loser. He has never had a job and the mother basically does everything for him. This guy won't even admit that they are an item but he has no problem having sex with her, her finacially supporting him in his own place, and her going over to his house to cook him breakfast, lunch and dinner. This guy is real lazy and sits home all day and watches TV. I heard he is a big soap opera fan.

Since the stepfather's death, there had been a lot of problems within H immediate family. The oldest sister moved in with her obnoxious, controlling bf and his family at the age of 18. That was 7 years ago and she no longer talks to anyone in the family accept the oldest of the half sisters. The 9 year old I had talked about ran away when she was 15 to Puerto Rico with a guy who was 23 at the time. My H was always very close with her and would do anything for her but when he brought her home from Puerto Rico she was furious at him and was out to get him. She told Child protective services that he beat her up. She wanted him off her back because he was trying to help her. CPS knew she was lying and found my H not guilty but my H was extremely hurt by her actions. They haven't spoken in 6 years and only recently during my H's MLC has he tried to reconnect with her. After years of counseling (she is the only one of the kids that ever went) she is doing great. She is graduating college this month with a GPA of 3.8. Another one of his sisters had a baby while a senior in high school. She isn't a bad person, but she just seems to find loser like her mother did to date. The youngest of the girls is into drugs, drinking, dating a 24 year old and misses school a lot. She is only 16. My H always seemed to be embarrassed because of all the drama his family made. He was always above them and always stood out from all of them. We got married, we had 2 kids, he has a great paying job, the american dream basically. He should of been living on top of the world. You would think by looking at him "how could he be miserable?" But he is. Right now he thinks I am the cause of all this misery. He has yet to look at the real cause of all his pain. I think he thinks it is too much to deal with so he rather just self-medicate himself with alcohol, working a lot, and of course, his ow. I do hope one day my H will find a way to get passed all this and get some help. I am not so sure he will though. Sometimes I feel like he has had too much childhood damage.

Sorry this was so long!


Me:35, ex: 36
Sons: 9 & 7
Bomb: July, 2006
Divorced 2009
MissH #956696 03/02/07 08:41 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
mrshurting

Thank you for sharing a part of your husbands past. And we wonder why people have a MLC?

I realize not all MLC people had as traumatic a childhood as your husbands. But each of them had issues that they choose not to deal with as an adult. They don't want to talk about it. They're afraid to deal with it as it is too painful.

Some MLC people believe their childhood was okay. They are either in denial or are not consciously aware of the impact their childhood experiences have on them in their adult life.

Many MLC spouses believe all their problems, all their issues, all their negative emotional feelings are becuase of the person they are married to. Their distorted minds don't know the difference between what is real versus unreal. Their beliefs is their reality.

I believe a MLC person simply wants the bad feelings inside of them to stop. If by running away from facing their issues or smothering them with alcohol or the many other addicitons such as work or OW/OM, than that is what they choose as the ANSWER.

To them, forget about the root of the problem. If they have found something that makes them feel godd, than dealing with the cause of their past pain doesn't matter anymore. They have found the solution and that is what counts most.

At least it doesn't matter until that pain resurfaces again. And it will, and it will be stronger than it was in the past.

The pain that is buried within a MLC person will never go away on it's own. It will follow the MLC person for as long as they are alive.

They can choose to acknowledge this pain and seek out the answers to where it comes from, and what it takes to heal themselves. Or, they can stay in denial and seek new "drugs of choice" to numb the pain that lies deep within them.

Your husband has a very dysfunctional family and his childhood experiences have left a lasting mark on him. Is he scarred for life? Only if he chooses not to seek help in healing those wounds. God does give us the ability to heal ourselves, physically, emotionally and spiritually.

My wounds are still within me. I have been in a process of healing now since the summer of 1992. That was the same time my sister revealed to me she and her husband were HIV positive.

My sister helped awaken me to the pain that was buried within me and how I had been running from dealing with it.

The journey since then has been pretty amazing as I have experienced the deaths of many who were dying from AIDS and Cancer. Each person helped me to face my own inner pain as they faced theirs.

There is so much that one can learn during the dying process and facing death head on. One of the biggest lessons that comes from dying is the lesson of ACCEPTANCE.

A person who is dealing with a terminal illness has to come to terms with the fragilenuss of life. They come to learn that dying is all part of the life experience. They learn that death is inevitable and will come to all of us. What they learn the most is that death of the physical body is not the end, but a new beginning.

Life is eternal, it does not end. We merely go from the physcial world to the non-physcial world. It is a transformation from the known to the unknown, yet their is a feeling of peace that everything is going to be okay.

Many spouses have been jolted by the death of someone close to them into a MLC state. We think of MLC as all bad. But maybe it is just the begining to what will become all good?

I have lived on the dark side of MLC. Or whatever it was that I experienced earlier in my life. My life experience may not have been an official MLC but something similar.

My life journey has taken me to places and experiences that many of you would find unforgiveable. My XW has not forgiven me and may never reach that point in this lifetime. And that is okay as it is her choice.

But if I had not had the experiences that I did while going through MLC, would I have become the person I am today? My experiences are all part of who I have become. The good as well as the bad experiences. It's just a matter of from what perspective you're looking from when you consider an experince either bad or good. The truth is it is neither, it is simply a learning opportunity.

It is my belief that our experiences, good or bad, are what give us character and help us to become all that we can become. Our experiences also help to make us wiser. A person that is very wise has experienced much pain in their lifetime.

All of us have the tools within us to change.
But we first have to choose to want to change, because it won't happen without us consciously bringing it about.

I hope that your husband eventually see's the light and awakens to the reality that it is within his control to heal from the past. He can create a future that is filled with love, peace and harmony. But he has to want and desire it first.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
Dear Paul,

I just wanted to let you know how much I learn each time I read one of your posts. You are helping me to understand more than you will ever know. You are amazing!

Hugs,
K

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,375
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,375
Paul,
I believe my H is in denial about the impact his past has had on him. His family has a tendency to not deal with the issues at hand.

Right after the bomb I had asked my H why he felt like he couldn't open up to me and tell me what was bothering him. His response was "because I don't want to bring you down with my sh*t". A little bit later in the conversation he then says "what makes you think that there is anything wrong with me?" So frustrating. Our MC had told him that she thought he needed IC but he said he wasn't ready to deal with him problems. I hope one day he will.

Thank you for your insight. I love to read your posts!


Me:35, ex: 36
Sons: 9 & 7
Bomb: July, 2006
Divorced 2009
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
K

I want you to know that each time I post I am learning too. I am no more amazing than you and everyone else in the world. We are all very special. Each of us have special gifts. Each of us have a purpose for being here. No one is any more special than anyone else.

We have the "power" within each of us to become who ever we choose to be. God has given us that power, it is just a matter of us becoming consciously aware that it exists within us.

Almost all of us have been looking externally for that "power" when all along it has been inside of us. Just as we seek happiness externally, true happiness comes from within.

Authentic power is the alignment of the personality with the soul. A person who is in MLC is a person who is out of alignment. Their personality and their soul are at odds with one another and the personality is fighting for it's existance without consideration of the existance of ones soul and what it needs.

Our personality is our ego. Our ego is very powerful and can try to control us. When we focus on our ego, life gets out of balance. Focusing on our ego is focusing on me, me ,me, and what I want without consideration of what the soul wants.

The soul wants peace, harmony and love. The ego wants all that is external believing that power lies in having "more." The ego believes that what it already has is not "enough."

A MLC person believes that as soon as they have "more" they will be happy. What they currently have is "not enough" and makes them feel "not good enough."

By chasing for "more" of what they don't have, they feel they will be happy. A MLC person lives in the world of "someday."

They think "someday" I will have what will bring me happiness. To most MLC spouses, that means the right partner. A MLC person has been unhappy inside and not content with what they already have. To them, something is missing. They don't feel complete. Their is a big vopid inside of them wanting more of "something."

When they discover the OM/OW, they believe that is what has been missing in their lives. They have finally found their "soulmate" the person they were meant to be with. They begin to believe that they married the wrong person. That the only way they will ever be happy is if they get rid of the person that is making them unahppy, and beginning a new life with the person that "fulfills their needs."

The MLC spouse is searching for "more" love, appreciation, validation of their feelings. The OW/OM in the eyes of the MLC spouse give this to them. It is what they believe. The MLC spouses beliefs are their reality. It is what they believe to be true for them.

That is why it is impossible to convince a MLC spouse otherwise. It is a waste of our time and energy trying to convince the MLC spouse that they are wrong in their thinking or beliefs. They feel they have finally found the answer to their happiness.

The LBS resisting and fighting to get the MLC spouse back only confirms what the MLC spouse already believes. That the LBS is the cause of their unhappiness and pain.

We believe by fighting for our marriage we will get our spouse back. This is the furthest thing from the truth. By fighting our MLC spouse to get them to wake up and see what they are doing is wrong, will only drive the wedge between us deeper.

A person going through MLC would be going through it no matter who they were married to. MLC is not about the marriage, it's about the person not understanding the conncetion between their past experiences and their present ones. It's about the MLC person being broken inside and needs to be healed.

Many people are trying to fix the marriage. The marriage is not the problem. The marriage simply brings up pain inj the MLC spouse that brings back memories of his or her childhood experiences. The pain within the MLC person is the root of the problem.

Until the MLC person deals with the root of their pain, the marriage can not be worked on nor can it be saved. When two married people are having relationship issues, it's not as much about the issues between them, but that the relationship brings up deeply buried issues from the past that we only believe are caused by our present situation.

The experiences from childhood and adulthood are different in only that it involves different people. Some may still involve people from childhood such as parents or siblings. But for the most part, the two spouses didn't know each other as children growing up. They may have known them supericially, but not intimately to the core of their issues.

I'm going to say something that some people might take offense to. But it is what I feel is reality.

The experience that everyone is going through with a MLC spouse is not happening "to us." It is happening "for us." By that I mean, there are "life lessons" that each of us are suppose to be learning while going through life and this experience.

Instead of fighting and resisting this experience, we need to learn to accept it as a natural and healthy event in our own personal development. There are no mistakes, only learning opportunities.

By fighting for our marriage, we will learn that it is not within "our power" to save it. There are things we can do that may have some influence on whether we remain married or get divorced. But utlimately, the power to continue being married is not within our control. That is why the biggest lesson of this experience is learning to "let go."

The more we resist, the more things persist. Once we become consciously aware of this fact and begin to release all that is not within our control, we begin to find peace and happiness. Trying to control the uncontrollable is asking for the impossible. It will only lead to great frustration and extreme dissapointment.

I believe that I was different and that my marriage was different. I believed that I could find the answer to getting my wife back. I believed that as long as I didn't give up, that I could eventually make it happen. I believed that all I needed was more patience and perseverance.

You know what? I WAS WRONG.

The power to control others, especially my xwife, was not within me. What I believed was all an illusion. It wasn't reality. It was what I felt I needed to be "good enough" to be "loved" to be "appreciated" to be "valued." My belief was that If I didn't get my wife back I would be none of those things. I would be nobody without her.

What I am now learning is that I am all of those things and more. I am "good enough" just as I am. I am "loveable" just as I am. I am "appreciated" just as I am. I am "valued" and "appreciated" just as I am.

That is what we all need to learn. What we are today is enough. What we do today is enough. We can not do or be anymore than what is within our power today.
That is all we have and that is all we will ever have. And that is "enough."

Love,
Paul


Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Paul - you keep amazing me ! SPOT ON, ONCE AGAIN !!! We are very lucky to have you and these wise words you bring on this board !! Thank you......

Last edited by cinderellaman; 03/03/07 02:52 PM.

Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941


Fighting for your marriage vs. Standing for your marriage.

I prefer to think of this so called journey as standing for my marriage because we attempt to take the focus off of spouse and pray, etc.

Also, my H, the MLCer will be the first one to say there are no problems in our marriage and when asked why he had to go out and get a girlfriend (his probation officer probed him on this)he says he really does not know. And then she kept probing and asked him why he still has a girlfriend if there is nothing wrong at home and once again, he does not know.

I believe they do not know why they do the things they do.

I think if we say we are fighting for our marriages, we attempt to go right out and do things we know will backfire on us.

Standing is very different.

Just my .02 worth for the day.

Last edited by steelersfan; 03/03/07 03:28 PM.

The Bomb: 08/05
H moves out: 06/2006
H moves back: 01/07 & Out again: 01/07
H moves back: 03/08 & Out again: 04/08
H moves back: 05/09 & Out again: 07/09
Divorced 08-12
Kids: 22, 20, 19
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Hi Steelers....I just read Snodderly's post on reconnection....maybe that would be useful for you ? Hope so


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 159
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 159
paul...you are the man no doubt...i stumbled on to your posts last night and have been mesmerized by the elequence and accuracy of your thoughts...keep up the great posts...i need constant reminders to keep me focused on me and not the uncontrollable situation im in relating to my MLC/WAW....thx again...BIG TUNA....im in "separated for now" if you ever happen to stop by........


ME-47
WAW-42
S16
S8
bomb 5/5/06
separated 10/6/06
D 4/18/07
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
Dear Paul,

Thank you again for that wonderful inspiring post.

"MLC's beliefs are their reality-- it is what they believe to be true for them." When a MLCer tells the LBS that there is no love left there anymore- it is gone. (THis is what my H tells me and his family) Are you saying that right now this is TRULY how they feels and that they BELIEVE this to be true, but in reality they have just buried these feelings for the LBS? How can I be sure it really isn't GONE for good?

I really want to believe that my H does still love me, but b/c of his MLC he just doesn't know it right now. If my H doesn't love me anymore, maybe he never will again. Sometimes people do fall out of love, right?

I just don't want to be in denial anymore. How do I know that my H's feelings of love will ever return for me. Especially when he REALLY isn't feeling any love me for right now b/c it is his REALITY?

Can you help me out on this? I want to believe that the love my H and I felt for one another was REAL and that it isn't gone forever. I know you can't tell me how my H is feeling , but since you have been there yourself- did you believe with all your heart when you were in MLC that you DIDN"T love or WANT your wife anymore? When you came out of your crisis did you realize you were wrong about how you felt and actually did love her?

K

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
We do have to remember that love is a choice. I think we need to remember that our MLC H's will have to choice to recognize those feeling when the time comes.

That may be where our acceptance of them will come into play. That is where I worry that if I don't make an attempt to heal our R from the total distance we have now to at least a friendship, we will never get a chance to restore our marriage. I have been praying lately for guidance and support for carrying out His plan for me.


Everything happens for a reason, maybe Dad needs to find that it isn't better out there, he needs to realize how good he had it here. Maybe he will find God and that is the most important thing when he finds Him he will know he is supposed to come home.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
iluv2teach,

I agree that it must begin with a friendship, but while these MLCer's are in replay a friendship isn't possible. The LBS can be pleasant to them while setting boudaries. This way down the road a friendship can start being built again.Idon't know about you , but my H has no desire to be friends with me right now.He can't even carry on a conversation with me - no eye contact , very uncomfortable . He's just not capable of it at the present time. My hopes are that he will begin to respect me again and feel safe around me given some time.

I really don't give H any reason to be uncomfortable around me as I am always cheerful and do not meantion Ow.

K

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
There absolutely no contact between H and I, only an occasional business email that I send to him. The best interaction he has had with me was thanking me for writing some directions for him.

I didn't respond because there was not reason to respond.


Everything happens for a reason, maybe Dad needs to find that it isn't better out there, he needs to realize how good he had it here. Maybe he will find God and that is the most important thing when he finds Him he will know he is supposed to come home.
#959105 03/04/07 11:38 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Scouby

My answer to both of your questions is NO. I wouldn't have read it and If I did, I wouldn't have understood it.

Being in a MLC, you are in your own little fantasy world. What you believe, all of your twisted thinking, is your reality. A MLC person hears what others are saying, but they believe they just don't get it. They don't understand you and what you're feeling and why you are doing what your doing.

When a LBS attempts to get their MLC spouse to do something, the MLC spouse believes that their spouse is trying to manipulate or control them. Being manipulated or controlled is that last things a MLC spouse will allow to happen to them. They will fight back with all the anger and resentmnet built up inside of them from many years of feeling controlled.

I believe a MLC spouse uses the threat of divorce or the filing for divorce as a way of getting their LBS to back off. What seems like an offensive move on their part is actually a defensive move to protect them.

I remember after my Xw and I seperated. I asked her how long she thought we would stay seperated. I was looking for a time frame from her. I asked, was it going to be 3 months, or 6 months. Boy did that strike a nerve. I'm sure she felt like I was trying to control her and how long she was going to take in order for her to figure out her life.

She went into the bathroom at work without answering. When she came out, she said; You want an answer? I just looked at her. You want an answer? Heres an answer, I want a divorce. I then said no honey, please, we don't need to get a divorce. I did back off. But only for a short period of time.

I did share the book Love at Midlife with my XW. I was very surprised that she read it. When she returned it to me, she said; Is that me in the book? I just said well? I was afraid to say yes, and tell her what I realy thought about what she was doing.

A MLC person can hear what is being said to them, except when they are in the deepest fog, and grasp a small bit of what is being said. But most choose not to face reality and choose to keep on running fom dealing with their pain.

My XW was having to much fun and felt as if she had just been released from a life sentence to prison. Her new found fredom gave her strength that she had never found before. She felt in control versus being controlled.

As they say; "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

Until a MLC person is able to admit the problem lies within them and not with their LBS, they are not ready to learn.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
K

It is my belief that the love is there within our MLC spouse. Unfortunately, it is buried beneath all of their pain. They can no longer feel, that which has been covered by all the emotional pain that they have supressed over many years.

The only way they can feel this love again, is to peel away the layers of pain that covers it.

Love is the core of who we are. God and Love are one in the same. God our Crerator has created us in His image. If God is Love, than we are Love as well.

A MLC person has a ditorted way of seeing the past, present and future. What they believe, is their reality. Their reality is not necessarily the truth. They just believe it is.

Have you ever had a feeling where your head feels numb? Like it's been in the freezer over night? This is what a MLC person feels like when they are experiencing depression and are in the worst of MLC. The "deer in the headlights look" is because things upstairs aren't functioning cleary. They can't process thoughts and understanding is out of the question. Their mind is not into logical thinking or reasoning.

When you ask a MLC person a question during the worst of their experience. What is their most common answer? I DON'T KNOW. They can't process thoughts that will lead to any kind of choice or decision. Their in the state of La La Land. That place that they exist between reality and their reality.

A MLC person will lie, and lie and lie. Eventually, they begin to thinking they are telling the truth. They don't know the difference between truth and lies, it all seems to run together.

I believe before someone can love others, they first have to love thereselves. A MLC person does not truly love themselves. I have struggled to love myself since the begining of my time here on Earth. By mot feeling love for myself, it is hard to give what i don't have to others.

I learned that love was conditional. I learned that you don't openly give love to others as they will hurt you or reject you. In my attempts to get love from my mother, I tried to please her. When I didn't please her to her expectations, she witheld her love for me.

Getting and giving love was a game. I never really learned the rules, at least how my mother played the game. To me, it seemed the rules for getting love were always changing. There were often new conditions that needed to be met to get love. What was good enough in the past, was no longer good enough. It seemed as if it became almost impossible to meet my mom's expectations. So, what did I do? Stop trying to get love from her so I didn't have to face rejection.

In my first marriage, I did the same dance I had learned from my mom. My Xw didn't like that dance and it created a less than satisfactory relationship.

I'm learning how to ask for my needs and being more authentic. It is not easy as I was programed for so many hears I have to write new tapes. It's sometimes a painful process to "let go" of what you learned in the past. But if you are to heal and have the love you desire, than you have to go through the pain. There are no shortcuts.

My sisters announcemnet that she wss HIV positive was my "wakeup call" from MLC. I can't say that it led to my immediate loving of my XW. It first brought on a lot of guilt and shame and a feeling of loving myself less for the things I had done.

Love,
Paul




Last edited by M Go Blue; 03/05/07 12:12 AM.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941
"Have you ever had a feeling where your head feels numb? Like it's been
in the freezer over night? This is what a MLC person feels like when
they are experiencing depression and are in the worst of MLC. The "deer
in the headlights look" is because things upstairs aren't functioning
cleary. They can't process thoughts and understanding is out of the
question. Their mind is not into logical thinking or reasoning."

Oh my!! When H came home for three weeks we were in shock. After we had been intimate, he would begin to cry and it was the strangest thing. He kept saying his head felt as if it was ready to explode, does not know if he was doing the right thing, etc. It was kind of scary actually and it would only happen when he and I were intimate.

"When you ask a MLC person a question during the worst of their
experience. What is their most common answer? I DON'T KNOW."

That is so, so true. Probation officer asked H why he was with OW if we have no marital problems and he said I DON'T KNOW.

He has said that to us as well.

You are right on with your analysis.


The Bomb: 08/05
H moves out: 06/2006
H moves back: 01/07 & Out again: 01/07
H moves back: 03/08 & Out again: 04/08
H moves back: 05/09 & Out again: 07/09
Divorced 08-12
Kids: 22, 20, 19
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
iluv2teach

Everything we do is a choice. God has given each of us Free Will, the ability to make choices.

What comes before making choices is "thought." Our thoughts ultimately lead to the choices we make. A MLC person doesn't think clearly therefore they often don't make wise choices.

As we think, therefore we become. We do create our own reality by the choices we make. A MLC person does not believe this. They believe they are a "victim." They believe that things happen "to them." They are a victim of curcumstances. It's always someone elses fault for how they feel. They don't understand that no one can make you feel the way you do without your permission.

A spiritual person believes that all things happen for a reason. In believing this, they believe that things happen "for them." That our experiences serve a higher purpose and their is meaning to all things, and all things are good.

There are no mistakes. There are only lessons to be learned. The experiences we have are opportunities to learn the lessons that are intended for each of us.

If you desire to stop having the same old experiences that cuase you pain and suffering. Than learn what the experiences are about and learn the lesson that is there for you. The sooner you learn the lesson, the sooner you will move on from those painful experiences.

A person who is lost and confused say's; "Why does this shit keep happening to me?" They just don't get it. Things that seem like probelms will keep happening "for them" until they finally "get it" and learn the lesson.

The lesson of "acceptance" is one all of us need to learn. Part of the lesson of "acceptance" is also the lesson of "letting go." Letting go of the things you can not change and accepting the things you can change are life lessons. Having the wisdom to know the difference comes from learning from our experiences.

Going through the experience of a spouse who is in MLC will give the LBS all the opportunities they could ever ask for in learning these two basic life lessons. Until we learn these lessons, it will be a very painful journey through our spouses MLC adventure.

It is so hard to learn these lessons while we are in so much pain. But learn we must, or we will remain in the pain indefinetly.

Love,
Paul


#959186 03/05/07 12:49 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Scouby

I read to understand as well. There are times where I still want to fix my XW and others. It is a challenge for me to resist telling them what they need to do. In order for people to heal themselves, they have to discover that it is only within there power to do so. No one can fix them other then themselves.

The sooner a LBS lets the MLC spouse go, the sooner they can reach a point where they may decide that the problem lies within them. I believe I helped prolong my XW's MLC. I kept trying to save her from herself and do her work for her. I was seeking answers to her problems when it should have been her doing.

As a former LBS, I was my own worst enemy. I was trying to be a fixer, healer and enabler all roled into one. I just needed to get the hell out of the way and alllow my XW to feel her pain from the choices she had made.

It is a whole lot eaier learning these things after the fact when you can look at things from a totally different perspective. While in the pain of a LBS you can't see anything even if it is right in front of you.

I was blind and dumb. It's pretty funny to think about now. Looking back I can say; "What was I thinking?" I guess I wasn't. I was in as much pain and confusion as my MLC XW. No wonder we couldn't get beyond the pain and confusion we were both experiencing.

I want to let everyone know that you can make it to the other side of this MLC experience. Things do get better. The wounds will heal. Love will return to your life.
But first you have to learn the lessons that this experience is all about.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,603
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,603
Paul,

THANK YOU! I want you to know that I may not always post, but I do read your thread and insights, about personal/spiritual growth and the MLC perspective (both as former MLCer and LBS).

I wanted to say how powerful your recent posts about the MLC mind have been. They are pieces of what we have all read before, but today, a few things you wrote really struck my side of compassion and understanding....and I have been struggling to feel that lately.

Mostly, it helps to know that this is not just in my life, that there is something to this on a larger scale, I'm not going crazy, and it's not all about the M or me.

Thank you!

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,776
I am a slow study but I feel I am learning the acceptance and letting go part of this lesson little by little. I do get thrown off track sometimes by things going on with H but I get back on track much quicker than I used to.

I have a long way to go before I have it mastered but I never give up. I do, however, feel strongly that God wants me to stand for my marriage. I have not felt the need to begin another R for a very long time. I know that it would be a bad idea until I have totally resolved the feeling I still have for my H. I don't think it will come to another R but I could be wrong. Whenever I have asked for a sign, I seem to get one. Right now my balance is coming from the book The Purpose Driven Life.


Everything happens for a reason, maybe Dad needs to find that it isn't better out there, he needs to realize how good he had it here. Maybe he will find God and that is the most important thing when he finds Him he will know he is supposed to come home.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
DearPaul,

I agree that a MLC spouse does bury their true feelings of love. "I guess I am just wondering if my H ever loved me at all?"

When we married we were soulmates, completely connected in everyway. We both felt like we never knew what love was until we met. We said nothing would ever come between us and my H told me he was "never more sure of anything in his life" when he asked me to marry him. Was it just an act? Did my H really ever love me??? These are the questions I have been asking myself.
These thoughts haunt me everyday. If he meant anything he said to me - how could he leave me?

Now 10 1/2 years of M, he has filed for divorce. Doesn't want to even try to work things out. Says the love is gone and can't get it back. He says he is being honest with himself for the very first time in his life. He is involved with Ow and has been since before he left me. He has moved in with her and has begun bringing her around the kids. I have been replaced!

He lost his father just 3 years ago and shortly after that I was told I wasn't there for him and never have been. I began noticing him changing and was more irritable and unhappy with our life together. I believe the A started about 2 1/2 years ago. Emotional then turning passionate. He moved out 2 years ago this coming June 1st.

I read your post about needs and how the MLCer perceives that their needs aren't being met and then seeks to have their needs met elsewhere. I could relate to everything you wrote.
H's father was an alcoholic and was never very close with him.
H told me how he always felt an emotional void in regards to his R with his dad. H avoided visiting his father for fear that he would be drunk and verbally abusive to our family. We didn't visit the IL's very often with our children for this reason. Then FIL died and I believe H had lots of guilt for not making things right with his dad before he died.

I want to believe that my H did really love me, but I ask myself "does my H really know what love is?" "did he ever?"
It seems that my H felt that I didn't care enough about his feelings and has told me manytimes that he felt I "neglected" our M. I know he is justifying his A and for abandoning our family , but I also believe that he has convinced himself that this is the Truth. His reality is that I never cared and didn't meet his needs, our M was a mistake, etc.....

I want so badly to believe he really did love me and meant everything he said to me, but I don't know anymore. Maybe he doesn't know what love is or has he just rewritten history and is in a MLC. I am starting to wonder.

Would you mind letting me know what you think about my sitch? I believe my H's issues with his father have definitely affected his adult life and R's, including our M.
Do you think my H knows what love really is? H says that I don't know what love is nor do I know what loving someone unconditionally is. I feel this about my H not me as I still love my H in spite of all that he has done and said over the past 2 1/2 years of his crisis.

K










Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
ktfbb7;

First off, ignore everything your H is saying right now. As DB/DR says, believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do. Your history with him is real, but his pain and confusion right now has put blinders on him looking at that history. He needs something to blame for the pain, and he can't blame himself so he has to blame you and your R. Believe in yourself and your feelings.


"I made the wall of shadow draw back,
beyond desire and act, I walked on.

Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost,
I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
matt,

I know my feeling were real and always have been. It's just hard not having doubts about how my H claimed to have felt about me before he said those dreaded words "I'm not in love with you anymore!" If someone once loved you as much as my H said he did-where does that love go? This is where my doubts come creeping in... My gut tells me H's feelings were real too, but he has been gone 2 years and no signs that he is even close to waking up to those feelings.

K

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 732
Paul, if I may, I'd like to jump in a confirm what you've said here. And what Matt said afterwards in simple terms.
Get out of their way. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to fix something you cannot, because it is only the MLCer that can fix themselves. You're the enemy. You're the target for their internal anger. You cannot hold up a mirror in front of them and tell them to look at the enemy. They look right through it as it does not exist. They only see the person holding it, you the enemy, the cause of all their problems from the day they were young even though you didn't enter into their life until twenty or thirty years later. Makes no difference. You are the problem, it's your fault, even though you didn't exist in their life at the time that now causes their pain.
Fractured logic? Of course. When you learn logic does not apply in the realm of MLC land, only then do you start to understand.
And understand a little of their world, maybe you will. But, you cannot apply the "rules", logic etc. of this world.
They don't exist in MLC land.

Much was thrown at me years ago when x went over into that realm. There were times I could not follow what she was saying, because it had no connection with any conversation I was in with her. Question is, was it just a bad case of MLC or did she really go off a very deep end? I don't know to this day.

But, picking up bits and pieces from friends and aquaintances over the years, despite my x's rants, non sensical accusations, deep denials of the existance of physical things right in front of her, no one says she has ever had a bad word to say about me. They go out of their way to say she did not say a mean thing about me personally. She instead "explains" we had different views, didn't get along etc. but no direct attacks these days or in the last couple of years. Of course the people that knew us well in the years before marriage and during, can see through the BS and history rewrites and quickly determine her revisions don't add up.
The easiest is the "he never wanted to go on vacations, take some time off, etc."
Our friends and aquaintances were almost envious of our long weekends at least four times a year, the week or weeks we would spend when I took her along on business in far flung places at least twice a year, and the family vacation we could always squeeze in for a week out the four weeks possible in a given year (because of the children's commitments).
A very simple example of history rewrites and skewed memory.
As simple as those may seem, forever etched in history of friends and family and in photographs and credit card bills for air tickets, hotels etc., they simply did not exist. Never happened. You could spread those out on a table for them to see, and they would not, can not, see them, simply because, if those documents exist,those photos exist, that alters the MLCer's perseption of history.
Trust me, it's an unnerving experience to sit down with a MLCer / or off the deep ender , to try to share those tangible things and they tell you (in all sincerety), they don't see anything in front of them.
Such is the world of a person in MLC.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul - what you have said here [and in the subsequent posts], seems so true to me. I instinctively KNEW immediately my h dropped the bomb that I had to get away and stay away. The only contact I have had have been initiated by my h.

Despite much evidcence to the contrary, I do believe that my h loves me, but cannot access that love. It is buried. He is getting his love back for his kids - although they are being tough with him.

At present as he emerges from the tunnel it as if he has two versions of reality before him - it is a bit like old glass window, where as you move your eye across the pane, some parts give a clear view, and then there is a big distortion.

My h writes and reviews, I have noticed the whole time that he has been in MLC that what he has written has been so much less good than the way he used to write. I thought, maybe I am being bitchy, but then I looked at things he had written previously, and he is writing less well. Soemthing he wrote in January was much better than what he produced last June/July, but it is still far from his former clear style. Similarly his political views have become rigid and simplisitc, when he was a man of subltely and humour.

He is not consciously lying - he believes his version of reality - that is what is scary. They leave out any parts that don't fit, and when presented with an incontrovertable fact, will shift their story to fit the facts. If anyone comments on this, they are being 'nit-picking'.

He is shifting in the tunnel - it is still a step back for every two steps forward, and teh pace is frustrating, but he said to me in January 'I feel as if someone else has been living my life for the past eighteen months, and I don't like it. I want my life back again'. He has retreated again, but I don't push him. He will emerge, I believe, in his own time.

In the meantime I have shown him that there is unconditional love
A lesson that we both had to learn, I think. I didn't think I was capable of it, and it is sobering. Love really is the greatest thing. God is love, truly.

Angelica

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
WOW Angelica, you sound so good....just a little while back I remember you saying that maybe you didn't want your H back anymore after all the pain an misery he put you trough, but you have found your unconditional love again...I am very happy for you, he will be lucky to get you back I think !!!


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Cinderellaman - A lot of praying, by me, friends and family. It is the toughest thing I ever did. Everytime you think you hit the bottom, . . . but as several posters have said, when you have finally had enough you can walk away, knowing that you did your best, and that what you are not doing, is for you, the best. Remember I am 17 months post bomb. his affair went on 15 months PA and longer as an EA, so it has been tough

Beleve me, I still think I am crazy to stand, a lot of the time.

LOL Angelica

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Angelica, I think you are courageous to stand. I really hope that I will be as strong as you at 17 months post bomb. I am only a year on, and the PA has only been 4 months even though EA has been much longer.
I guess we all feel crazy to be standing from time to time, but I guess that is also what gives us the balance to cope !

Still think you are a very courageous woman !!!! Thanks for all your fantastic advice and insight !


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 710
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 710
Angelica

I also would like to say that you have seem to have been such a strong person, even though im sure behind closed doors etc you have been in tremendous pain. I truly hope that your husband finds his way home to you.

Nicky


Me 34
H 33
D3
together 10 years
married 2 years
Bomb 22/8/06 (I feel empty) OW involved
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
nickyf and cinderellaman - i think the pain that we all feel is almost unbearable at times, and completely NOT understood by anyone who has not gone through this.

Sometimes I wonder if I am just a masochist, and that a sane person would have walked away, and then I remember what an amazingly nice, kind, and good person my h used to be, how much I learned from him, and how I know he would have stood by me in bad times.

But to the world they are just another erring man. But as Christ told us, we should not conform to the world and its norms.

But please do not think that I do not fully sympathize and accept the decision of ANYONE here not to stand. it is entirely an individual decision, and some have to walk away to protect thesemselves and their kids. And while all MLCers are behaving badly, some are undoubtedly worse and more unfeeling than others.

This is such a great support system, thanks for your support.

Angelica

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,791
Angelica how right you are, I agree about not being understood by anyone who hasn't been through this, I have often tried to tell people it's like having kids; people can tell you about it and show you and try to express the emotions that will come with it, but you DO NOT KNOW what it's like till you give birth and experience it yourself.
It is THAT kind of experience I think, that's why people 'on the outside' have no clue and therefore often have 'useless' advice !

I am also EXTREMELY thankful for this support system, I think I would never have made it this far, if it wasn't for all of you here !!!!


Love Cinders xxx

"In the depths of my winter, I realized there is within me an invincible summer" Albert Camus

http://miesblogspot.blogspot.com/
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
Dear Paul

Tomorrow morning is my first court date to start H and my divorce. I am pretty nervous and sad that it has come to this.

Can you give me any pointers or advice about how I should act around my H? Should I wish him well, acknowledge his presence in the courthouse , ignore him?? It will basically be our 2 L's doing all the negociating while H and I sit in a room together. Uncomfortable , but my L says the room is large so if I don't want to speak to H I don't have to.

It is going to be a very sad day for me-- to H I think he is looking at it as the end of a chapter in his life and is looking forward to a new beginning with Ow. He believes his unhappiness was because he was married to me, we were a mistake.

Coming from a MLCer's perspective how do you think I should act? Do I show him my true feelings of disappointment and regrets or act strong and confident - looking forward to my new life without him??

Any thoughts would be appreciated,
Hugs,
K



Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
K

I would suggest that you act as you feel. Be who you are at the moment.

If you feel sad, than be sad. If you feel this is like a business transaction, than act business like.

Don't try to be who you are not. Be who you are.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,428
Paul,

I will do just that, thank you so much.

Wish me luck.

Hugs,
K

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
angelica

What are intuition tells us and what we do are often two different things. We need to trust our intuition, or inner voice as it knows what is best.

In my readings I'm begining to understand that it's not a matter of me learning what to do, but actually remembering what to do. It may be such that all the information I need, in order to deal with my life experiences already exists within me.

Each of us have our own DNA imprint. Our physical body has all the tools and information it needs already programmed inside of me to function and do everything it does without having to give it thought and make choices. Our heart beats and pumps blood, our lungs take in oxygen and then distribute it to the rest of our body through our blood system. Our digestive system, nervous system, muscle system, respiratory system all function automatically and systematically.

It may be such that we also have a imprint with all the information to function mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

I believe that MLC is tied to ones past experiences as a child. It may also be connected to ones own emotional DNA that is passed from one generation to the next, just as our physical genes are passed along.

Maybe our spouses MLC is linked to their parents emotional issues and our grandparents emotional issues and have been passed on for generations.

I was talking to my counselor about this yesterday. We talked about putting together a family history chart to see how the connections play out.

I can look back to my parents and their emotional and mental issues, and also to their parents issues. The connection is very interesting as there does seem to be a pattern that keeps repeating itself.

I know there is some repeating of behaviors that are learned from the environment that you growup in. But is it such that there is some of what we "know" and "do" because it is a part of us internally and was given to us at birth?

I've talked to my son and his cousin about breaking the pattern of what has happened with their parents and grandparents before them. My thinking is that if they are consciously aware of the dysfuntional aspects of their parents and grandparents lives, maybe they can learn from that and make different choices in how they deal with lifes personal issues in the future.

Our reality is what we believe. Our MLC spouses are not wrong in their thinking. At least not in terms of, it is what they truly believe.

Their perception and your perception can be totally opposite. Each of us have had our own life experiences and have filters in how we process our experiences. What we experienced in the past has a huge impact on what we percieve in the present.

To each of us, what we experience today is influenced heavily in the past. For those of us who had a different childhood experience than our spouses, we see things far differently than they do.

I think all of us, at least I do, question what is reality. I question my own beliefs daily.

I ask myself; Is what I percieve reality or is it just my perception. My perception is so influenced by what I have experienced I often wonder if it has been tainted from seeing the truth.

In reading the postings by LBS you hear one reality based on what the LBS is percieving to be true. Reality is that what they share as their "truth" may not be reality at all.

It has been my understanding that what the LBS believes is happening in their marriage relationship with a MLC person, is not what is really happening.

To me, what is being experienced and why it's beeing experienced is far different than what a LBS believes.

I've come to believe that what a LBS things is happening "to them", is actually happening "for them."

The reason I believe this is my belief in that our life has experiences that are opportunities to learn the lesons each of us are suppose to learn.

The MLC experience is not a "mistake" but a great opportunity to learn many of our lessons in one experience.

A LBS believes that what is happening shouldn't be happening. This is not how my marriage was suppose to be. This is not what marriage is about. This goes against God's wishes. My spouses thinking and behaviors are all wrong and go against what I believe to be morally right.

All of us have beliefs about marriage. What it is and what it should be. Where did we get these beliefs? From our parents, friends and what has been handed down from generations.

My question is this. Is marriage changing? If you look at statistics on marriage, people are waiting longer to get married, more and more people are co-habitating. Divorce is on the rise in some countries. Are our beliefs on marriage changing?

For those who say they are "standing for their marriage" are they actually standing for their "beliefs about marriage?"

I've come to understand that beliefs are not facts. They are simply beliefs. They are neither right or wrong. Our beliefs are what is right for us, at this time. Over time, what we used to believe no longer holds true for us. Our beliefs are continually changing.

How many beliefs you had in the past are no longer what you believe today? I have many beliefs that I have slowly "let go" of. The more I experience, the more I know and understand, the faster my beliefs change.

I sense that some LBS's believe that by being married to their MLC spouse, that gives them the right ow "ownership" of their spouse.

Some LBS's want to control their MLC spouse by making them feel guilty or ashamed for what they are doing. They do this based on their beliefs. They believe that their spouse going through MLC is "wrong" for what they think and what they are doing.

I believe that a person who has a MLC would have it wether they are married to the person they are married to or any one of 6 billion other choices they could have made for a marriage partner.

MLC is not about the marriage. MLC is about the individual and their unresolved childhood issues. MLC is about human mental, emotional and spiritual development. You can't save the marriage without first fixing or healing the MLC person. It doesn't and won't work.

Yes, you might get the MLC and LBS back together. But the MLC's issues are still there and will resurface their ugly head again in the future.

There are many stories of spouses who have gotten back together while one of them was going through a MLC, and then seperated again in the future and eventually divorced.

The MLC person will say they tried to make it work but it just wasn't working out. They say, at least I tried. The truth is they never fully dealt with their issues that led to their MLC. They just supressed their emotional pain and tried to live life carrying this unfinished baggage within them.

I had my MLC behaviors in my 30's. I'm now 53 and I'm still working on my childhood issues and wounds trying to heal them. It's very hard work for a person who has experienced a MLC to discover what their true issues are and what is neccessary to "fix" themselves.

I do take issue with the belief that the marriage, where one spouse is going through MLC, can be saved by using DB principles alone. To me, the major issues are not about the marriage relationship. The major issues are what lie inside of the MLC person and the LBS person as well.

You need to get to the core of what the issues are, before you can truly have a healthy marriage relationship. Yes, you can get back togehter and on the surface seem happy. But inside, I can gurantee the MLC person is not truly happy. Just as they were not happy before they dropped the "bomb."

A MLC person struggles to share what they are really feeling inside. They learned in childhood to not share their feelings and if they did they would suffer the consequences. They also learned that by sharing their feelings and asking for their needs be met they often faced rejection or abandonment.

As an adult, a MLC person does not know how to ask for their needs from their spouse, and they also "fear" that if they did, they would be ridiculed or rejected. So from that fear, they don't ask. They believe they are not "good enough" to have their needs met.


There are two basic human emotions, LOVE and FEAR. You cannot experience both at the same time. A MLC person is acting out from the "fear" inside of them. A MLC person does not understand what unconditional love is, as they did not experience it as a child.

As I learn more about myself and my twisted thinking, that was developed during my childhood experiences, the more I understand how hard it is to erase the old tapes inside of my head and replace them with new ones.

It would be great if I could just go to my pshychiatrist and she would hook me up to a machine that would erase all the old memories and replace them with new information that would help me function better as an adult. At this time that is not possible, I have to do it mannualy.

And that is probably the way it is supposed to be. All the painful experiences I have had in my lifetime served a greater purpose. Each one was given to me to learn the lessons that I needed to learn. Things do happen for a reason.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
MGoBlue - as always an interestig post, but not one I fully agree with!

My h said something veryinteresting a couple of months ago - he said I feel as if someone else has been living my life for the last 16 months, and I don't like it, it isn't the real me. The person he was for 16 months was unrecognizable to everyone who knew him.

I believe that there is a verifiable external reality. Our reality corresonds to this to a greater or lesser extent. When our internal reality is seriously out of kilter with external reality we are in crisis. {I am not talkig about societal norms, by the way here, but a deeper, spiritual reality]

However I also believe for more damaged people there is a pattern of repeated suffering, [and there is an interesting book called 'Healing in the Family chain']. I do know MLCers that have worked through their crisis, and got back together, and are several years on, and very happy. Nothing about them suggests that they are putting on any kind of show.

Is marriage changing - well, marriage fulfills a variety of needs, but I see a surprisingly stable pattern of ideas about marriage in writings across the ages.

At its best it is a physical and spiritual bond between two people who have large areas of compatibility, but enough individuality to interest each other. There needs to be all kinds of equalities 'Be not unevenly yoked together', as the Bible has it. It is a source of comfort, joy, solace, security.

Just as healthy people are robust, so healthy marriages will survive a lot of abuse.

I continue to believe that MLC is a spiritual/emotional sickness, which has to be resolved, and which causes teh MLCer to reject what they previously loved. yes, their view of marriage is their current reality, but it is a shifting one.

My h tells a different story every time he opens his mouth. The children's view, and mine, is curiously stable. We don't need to go back and reinterpret past events to suit the current situation. We don't need to rewrite hisotry, deny that we uttered words we didn't mean, made plans we had no intention of honouring.

I do believe that what had happened to us can be positive, but if my h doesn't learn from it, then he will fail to develop to his fullest potential.

I truly do not know and recognise the person he was in full-blown MLC. Neither does anyone else. Now we get intermittent glimpses of the person we knew and loved, and he gradually becomes happier, but he is still in a lot of pain.

So yes, I think MLC had to happen to my h, and I think he CAN work through it, and resolve a lot of issues from his childhood, and rebuild his relationships. He doesn't have to, and we will all be fine. Diminished by the loss of the person he was, unless the person he can be emerges fully. Just MO - I am still going through this, and in general, feeling good about what is going on, in an odd sort of way. I do see it as a pilgrimage, that I ddin't want to undertake, but that has led me to a better place. If my h wants to join me there, I think we could be happy together, but I will be fine.

Angelica

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 300
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 300
Very interesting, as ever.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Good points from both.

Paul, we are all biased in our R since we are part of our R. We feel hurt and angry that everything is going on and it's always easier to blame others rather than ourselves. It's rare when we take on the responsibility of our actions that resulted in where we are now. The difficult part is that by the time we get here, our MLC spouses usually don't want us to correct the problems anymore.

Angelica, MLC isn't a sickness, per se, but rather it's the individual that has hit a point in their life where they have to acknowledge their own mortality and their future. To do that, they have to strip away everything they know to find out "who" they really are. Most of the time, they come back to the person they were, but they will ALWAYS be changed and not identical to that person. Some also change and are no longer anything like the person they were. We can only pray for them and trust that the person they were is the person they want to be again.


"I made the wall of shadow draw back,
beyond desire and act, I walked on.

Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost,
I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Matt, I am not sure that it isn't a kind of sickness - just as when we have over eaten, or drunk too much, and need to get back to our essentials. What I mean is that it is not a state of spiritual health.

They need to go through it, to change, because of what has bought them to that state. I am changed too, and although my marriage was very happy, I can now see it could be better, because I am a different person now, as well.

Angelica

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,491
It isn't spiritually healthy, I agree. The only reason I'm not calling it a sickness anymore is b/c I agree with Paul that it's not something we can cure. It's a process that they need to go through to grow (hopefully) as a person.


"I made the wall of shadow draw back,
beyond desire and act, I walked on.

Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost,
I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,633
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,633
A discussion that reoccurs around here. Sickness or not?

Transition is a part of life. At Midlife there is a midlife transition...We ALL go through this if we live long enough.

The transition need not go to crisis levels. It is not a disease but Dis-Ease. I believe with Paul that the roots are in childhood and adolescence. The Crisis group are denying their transitions. Though perhaps not a sickness in the manner that it is something wrong, it is a state of unhealth. It is a necessary journey toward greater Self and spiritual growth and awareness.

Hmmm...maybe for me the requirement for something to be sicknesss is that it is something wrong or not meant to be. The opposite of wrng is not right, because I am not saying MLC is right. MLT is right and MLC is a curvy path of denial and avoidance.

HUGS,
RCR

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
Wow,

Miss a minute, miss a lot on this thread.

Angelica,
I agree. Each person can work their way through if they are willing to deal with the pain that they will encounter on the road rather than stuff it into the closet. I see my H still spinning in circles. Every now and again I do get a glimpse of the person that I knew but I must admit for my own purposes, I pretty much stay away from him. I have done this for my own health, safety and mental security.

I do not initiate contact unless it is about the children or finances. If he comes to visit the children at my house, I go about the busines of cleaning the kitchen,calling friends, going out to a store or otherwise occupying myself. It seems that he is trying to remain in the children's good graces by buying them things but my son is still not going for it.

Funny, on the batcave thread I mentioned that H is becoming frustrated that I only communicate with him through the children and how he eats fast food and cans of soup. He came over last night and I was still cleaning up after dinner. I made barbecued pork chops, rice and string beans and had some left over baked ziti (it was delicious by the way). So, he was doing something with the kids and I was in the kitchen. Suddenly,he walked up next to me and said "Do you mind if I take a pork chop?" I said,"I think that they are cold." I nearly fell out on the floor by what he said next... "It's okay, I don't mind." Ok, now understand this was a man that would not eat a grain of rice if it was at room temperature, his soda had to be darn near frozen and his food PIPING HOT.

Before I knew it he grabbed a pork chop sauce and all, I could not even pass him a paper towel and he literally swallowed the pork chop in 3 bites. I told my D who had walked over by this time to ask Dad if he wanted some baked ziti. I put some on a plate and she took it to him and it was inhaled before I could finish washing a few glasses. Guess homecooking is being missed,huh? Oh well, his choice. My cooking is darn good.

I no longer call him Daddy in the children's presence, I refer to him as "your father". It takes the "endearment" out of my side and makes it a lot easier for me to detach.

My point is, these are not the people that we know so we have to take on the persona of being not so much the person that they knew either.

I am less influenced by how he feels and more concnerned about what works for me and the kids. He seems frustrated somewhat by it. Particularly with me not initiating contact, allowing him to communicate directly with the children and me not serve as a buffer, and not being so easily controlled. As said before, it is what works for me. So funny, he once said "I feel like I am talking someone who is not there when I talk to you, why can't you just tell me. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?" My responses are friendly but short and professional. He wanted it this way so things will have to change for me. Either way, I will be okay. That is how I see it now. Don't get me wrong, I miss him. But I MISS HIM,not the monster that he has become.

MLC is a horrible monster, I have been there and you really cannot remember which way is up but at some point the spouse with the brain screwed on correctly, needs to hold them accountable but from a safe enough distance that green vomit does not get slapped in our direction. Once you get into holding them accountable instead of feeling sorry for yourself or them, the world becomes a much brighter place and you are carrying a lighter load.

To quote my therapist, "You cannot carry around 180lbs of dead weight. You can sit around and wait and try to carry it but you will not have your mind when you can't carry it anymore."

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Everhopeful - the wolfing down food I have also seen!! And the NC - I have had aggrieved complaints that I don't respond to emails or want to talk on the phone . . . . well, no, not to the person he currently is. There is no percentage in it.

Angelica

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,603
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,603
Paul

I have to say, I love reading the things you write, b/c in many ways you are very similar to my H. Similar childhood (father/mother that you once described), and even the pattern of your MLC (many OP, which I feel is not as common...just running to fix the pain and seek happiness).

Also, much of what you write, about childhood issues, is at the core for my H. The feeling of FEAR and LOVE. My H truly, so he says at times, does not feel worthy. Fears rejection desperately. He's probably one of the few MLCers here who has listened to me rip him apart (recently) for hours, and admitted to all of it and felt so terribly. When I did not do that, he asked me for it "do you want to tell me what I did wrong." Almost wanting to be reprimanded.

I ABSOLUTELY agree that MLC is a manifestation of issues that existed that come out during the transition period. And just because MLC behaviors are over, does not mean all is well. The core issues need to be faced and resolved. I have heard my H recount his issues (self esteem, self hate, jealousy) and address his childhood issues.

I have been guilty, in my own pain and anger, recently of making him feel guilty and ashamed. I pushed that on him. I'm human too, and have been through a lot. I do vary in opinion that MLC behavior is simply a difference in perception. There are "norms" in life/culture. When agreeing to M, youagree to those set of norms. It's a set of perceptions that you both agree on. Do people stray, make mistakes, grow? yes. I did too.

But, I would suspect that part of the anger/pushing away from the MLCer during MLC is because they themselves cannot reconcile that their behavior is simply a different perception. Or else they would act more comfortably with it. My H had a LOT of guilt through his MLC, long before I found about OW, and even when I did, I was silent about it. He cried so many times, felt suicidal, and I had no idea why. I suspect it was because he was going against his own values and core. Necessary, yes, obviously since it was so painful and he still did it.

Was it painful for me? Yes. It still is. I also think part of "growth" from MLC that you have so beautifully gone through and we all HOPE our spouses do, is from coming out and facing what has happened to your life. To still stand strong and come out of that, to face it, forgive yourself, grow from the lesson.

My brother went through his own QLC. He said the hardest yet most powerful part of the whole experience was coming out. Climbing out of the hole. Sitting before others and explaining, facing and growing from that to be a strong person and love yourself.

So, while I think forgiveness and compassion are important, I also think that the MLCer not facing the pain they caused is not beneficial either. I think it's part of "sweeping under the rug" that feeds into the avoidance and not facing the issues that caused the MLC to begin with. When you are faced with destruction, you are forced to ask "why did this happen to begin with....I was not the type of person to destroy my life I worked so hard to build."

Sure, maybe the MLCer has a different perception of life during the crisis time...I agree with that. It's not the perception of M they originally had, though. I know for a fact that my H surprised himself, he did not have a vision of M that he does now, it changed during his MLC, but not comfortably. But, coming out of MLC, they face that though they had a different perception, they did let down another person's perception...a person who counted on the perception they originally promised.

Keep writing, Paul. Your words ring so true. They help me process. And , believe it or not, they help me come back down to earth in understanding my H...as much as I can.

THANK YOU.

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
Angelica

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs.

I don't expect everyone to agree with my thoughts nor my beliefs. Even I eventually disagree with my past beliefs and understandings as I have more experiences in which to question myself of what I formerly thought to be the truth.

I don't fully understand what you mean by external reality vs. internal reality. Could you please explain?

For me, what seems real may not be real for you, as we each have different perceptions of what has occured or what we sense. With my limited understanding, I'm not sure there is only one reality, but many different perceptions of reality.

Maybe there is one realiity. To me, it seems like deciding what is right and what is wrong determines reality. What someone believes is right could be there reality. If someone else chooses the opposite as right for them, then they believe that is their reality.

For me, it comes down to what works and what doesn't work. Is reality the "truth?"

When Gary Zukav was asked what is the truth? He said, "that which does not harm."

Please share with me your thoughts on reality as it may enlighten me to something I struggle to understand.

It is interesting the things a MLC spouse say to us at times. We often wonder, "where did that come from." What they say seems so foreign to a person who is not in touch with themselves and are so lost and confused. My XW told me that her leaving the marriage was not about me but was about her. There was something happening to her that she did not understand.

I do realize there are MLC spouses who have gotten back together and are living happy lives. At least that is what is seen on the surface. How many people do you know who are in MLC, had been walking around wearing the "mask" of everything is okay, prior to revealing that there marriage had been a lie and they never loved their spouse?

The Silent Sons of the world do not reveal their true feelings, just as the silent daughters go about smiling and saying I'm okay, everything is fine.

My XW had a beautiful smile that she used to protect herself from showing her true feelings. When people would ask her if she was all right. she would just smile and say everything is fine. She really surprised a lot of people when she revealed the fury of MLC that had been trapped inside of her for so many years.

Back in 1999 when I first came here I too thought MLC was an illness that could be cured. What I eventually realized, in MO, that it was not a disease or illness but was part of human emotional and spiritual development.

A MLC person did not develop emotionally during childhood and adolesence and now is having to go through a transition to adulthood where they go back and relive their youth before they can move forward. They failed to learn what they needed to the first time through life school, so now they have to return to a previous time to learn that which they missed the first time.

As I am understanding more fully, life is not lived on a linear line. We mark time as from birth to ones current age and eventualy death. Our lives are eternal, birth and death are merely transitions from the non-physical to the physical and then back to the non-physical world. We repeat this cycle over and over. What we don't learn this time here in the "Earth School" we will get an opportunity to learn the next time we pass through.

We travel forward, backward, side to side, up and down, around and around we go. Why does MLC feel like we are traveling on a roller coaster? Yes, our emotions are all over the place, up and then down. But maybe our lives are moving forward, backward and every which way possible.

The LBS spends a great deal of time living in the past. They talk about how the marriage used to be and the desire to return to those "better days." The LBS also spends a great deal of time in the futre. Saying things like; "someday we will get back together." Our not living today while waithing for that "someday" when everything will be good again keeps us stuck from living life.

The LBS really struggles living in the moment. I know this very well as I spent a great deal of time looking back to how things used to be and a great deal of time wishing for that "someday" when my XW and I would be together again. I din't want to deal with the pain in the present moment.

But by avoiding dealing with the present kept me stuck from moving forward. Eventually I realized for me that this was insanity waiting for something to change that was totally out of my control. I decided to take control of what was within my power and get back to livng again.

Whether a MLC person learns from their experience and grows from it will ultimately come down to "their choosing." God gives us Free Will to live our lives in what ever fashion we choose. We can choose to remain stuck in the past and blame others for all of our emotional problems, or we can learn to understand the connection to our past and present, learn from it, and then make choices that are more healthy mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.

We all have the power to make choices. Some us will choose to make better choices, some will remain stuck in continually making the same old choices and wonder why sh$t keeps happening "to them."

Not everyone will "wakeup" and smell the coffee.

Thanks again for sharing.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Paul - You have asked some tough questions, but I believe that MLCers 'truth' is actually a tissue of lies. It does not resonate either with their preiouvs words or behaviours. It has no consistency with their previous selves. it is a disjunct, which many MLCers who come out of it admit to. It seemed like the truth at the time, and they neded it to be the truth, because reaity had suddenly become painful.

I am arrogant enough to believe that I know when someone is teling the truth, much of the time. Many MLCs come on very fast to the actual crisis, when they drop the bomb - they are slow in building, but they erupt like a head of steam. It is at this point, for many [though maybe not for you] that the rewriting of history takes place. It IS a rewriting of history. Their heart was NOT breaking at that party 2 years ago, They have now decided that their heart was breaking, because they are doing things they don't understand, because they are in the grip of emotional crisis, dealing with stuff that has bubbled up from the deep past. It is real at the time, but that doesn't make it real. If you build a wooden car it isn't actually a car, but a type of illusion. Is that reality?

Yes, the people I know who have come through MLC may still be deeply unhappy, but they are great fun, emotionally honest, committed to their family and friends. In short behaving like normal people.

It is not normal, in my view to repudiate all your former friends, break contact with you chldren, and family, as well as your spouse. this is about far more than an unhappy marriage. MLCers lie, manipulate, are abusive, sometimes even physically. When they work through their crisis, all of this stops. Are you seriously telling us here, that they are all still deeply unhappy people?

If I didn't believe that people can heal and achieve emotional happiness, and intimacy again, life would lose a hugely important dimension. That is not the same as 'wanting them back' it is a belief that healing can and does take place and that we can grow and learn.

To dismissively suggest that these former MLCers are still walking around in pain does not correspond to any reality that I recognise. They certainly did not go back to their families out of a misplaced sense of duty, but because they wanted to be with the peole they loved, had lost sight of that love, but found it again, and built on it. It is a choice.

The problem with your view that all reality is relative is that it gives us no vocabulary for dealing with the delusional and paranoid, if their reaity is as fully valid. If I believe that martians are controlling the thoughts of President Bush who is to say I am incorrect in your view of the world?

Just my thoughts.
A

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 568
Paul and Angelica,

Just a note to say thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us all. It is good to pose different points of view as it allows all of us to learn and grow, apply theory and see what works in our individual situations.

Having been through MLC and now witnessing what I see as my H's MLC based upon some things that he has said and done over the past 2 years I agree with some of what both of you have stated.

MLC is definately about revisiting past experiences and childhood/adolescent issues.

Might I add that MLC is also about how enabled a person has been, my H for example has been taken care of his entire life without having to do much of anything other than "be nice". He went from being waited on hand and foot by his older sisters (he is the youngest) to sort of raising himself when all of the other siblings got married and moved out as his parents were elderly right into my house where I was so concerned about appearances and being a good wife that I virtually demanded nothing of him in and around the house.

He never had a real chance to be a teenager or young adult and struggled with being irresponsible. So, it has come back to bite him at 40. I have had issues that I discussed earlier in the thread and a few others.

What I also see from my own "recovery" is that something has to happen to snap you out of your self imposed delusional world. Just like a series of things must happen to send you into it. But even though those things happen to send you in, if you are immature to begin with or maybe if you had no relationship with God BEFORE you went into MLC it will take you that much longer to snap out of it or the incident will have to be that much more earth shattering to get you to snap out of it.JMHO.


So, herein lies my theory. Circumstances and conditions contribute to the state of mind that you are in when MLC comes your way, how you handle it and work out of it. Other people do play some small part in how you work your way out.

In how accountable they hold you for your actions, how enabling they are to you, how much distance they put between themselves and you, and if you as the person in MLC is mature enough to handle the helping of laxative that you have served yourself.

Some may take what seems like forever to a normal person (it took my Dad almost 20 years, give or take a few and we were not around him all of this time.) Point is, to him it does not seem that long at all. But to my Mom, my sister and I and to his brother and sister... it has been a lifetime and one that he missed out on. We can never go back, he sees us as adults but cannot understand how we got to. Sometimes I catch him looking at us and I can see the wonderment on his face ... time got away from him and he knows it.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,978
Everhopeful, your post makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that my h didn't mature as I did, during our marriage - we married pretty young, and he was very intellecutually bright, and sort of focused on this rather than growing emotionally. I think he 'woke up' one morning and found himself actually middle-aged, but emotionally still youg, and instead of moving forward he went into reverse. I had a much more grounded childhood, and was more secure in every way. I also think I provided him with the stability and love he craved.

Although MLCers say it is all about the LBS, their actions certainly give the lie to this. He has been pretty horrible to everyone, including his kids. So he fell out of love with them for a while, but now he is starting to try and move closer to them, but of course he has been unpleasant to them and emootionally absent, and still not fully recognising that he has to make a lot of effort to rebuild relationships. There is an important learning part of MLC, but it certainly is a destructive process. Whatever I needed to learn, my kids never deserved this. I think we forget them in this, all too often.

Angelica

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,947
angelica

What I share comes from my own life experiences and what I percieve to be occuring. There is a feeling that I have when something resonates inside of me that makes me feel as if this is the "truth." Yet, I realize, I don't know what the "truth" is. All I know is what my senses are telling me.

I do know that I am more emotionally aware of things that I was not aware of in the past. I believe we are changing as a human species. It is not something I can prove, but something that I sense within me.

As a species, we have survived using External Power, manipulating and controlling external things outside of us. It is no longer working as their is a greater resistance to it.

MLC individuals are a strong example of this. A MLC person feels as if they have been manipulated and controlled their whole life. They have reach a point where they have said, "no more."

The MLC person is finally taking control of their lives. To others, it comes across as being selfish and repudiating friends, family and loved ones. To the MLC person this is done to protect themselves and save them.

A MLC person acts from the world of "fear." I recently read that the root of all fear is "death." I find this very interesting as we believe that the death of someone close to the MLC spouse is what triggers their MLC.

We believe that a persons fear of life passing them by and that they have not accomplished or achieved what they thought they should of at this stage motivates, them to make changes and take control of their lives. Many MLC spouses blame their spouses for their own failures in achievement or lack of accomplishments.

Sorry for stopping short of what I wanted to say, but my wife is expecting me at home. I will finish my thoughts later.

Love,
Paul


Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 710
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 710
Paul

Just wondering where you are, i always found your post very informative, they helped me in many ways.

Hope you are doing ok

Nicky


Me 34
H 33
D3
together 10 years
married 2 years
Bomb 22/8/06 (I feel empty) OW involved
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: M Go Blue
My divorce has worked out to be a very good change for me, even though it brought up all of my fears. What it has done is helped me to face my fears and learn what they are all about.

I'm still working on them, and probably will until the day comes for me to return home. That is how it probably should be.

We are here to learn the lessons that are intended for each of us. We continue to have the same experiences, sometimes with different people, over and over until we finally learn the lessson we are supposed to learn.

For some of us, especially me, we have to repeat the tough experiences over many times before we finally "get it." I seem to learn better by attending the "school of hard knocks.

Originally Posted By: M Go Blue
My second marriage has brought up the same issues I had in my first. The issues are not within my new wife, but within me. Changing spouses does not make the old issues go away.

Your MLC spouse has believed that their new OW/Om is their "soul mate" and there old issues have dissapeared. Trust me, it's just a matter of time before your spouses issues will resurface their ugly head again.

This is real gold.

Paul is about my age as near as I can calculate.
Figuring out these issues is our challenge.
And how to do our work on them.
It does not mean that our marriages will survive or reconcile since we appear to have no CONTROL over that.

Thanks M GO Blue I am a little late responding but I have lots of TIME. smile smile smile


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: M Go Blue
I believe my Xw did try to connect in her own way. I didn't realize it at the time. When she did make contact, I was already involved with my current wife and had moved on with my life. Had I not been involved with someone new, maybe we would have gotten back togehter. Maybe the only reason she tried to connect was that she felt she was really losing me. It may be why she is still angry with me today, I didn't wait for her.

I really believe that this is true.
You can not wait and must get on living your life "as if" they are never coming back.
But the script does seem to play out over and over the same way.
Even for Paul.


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
J
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
J
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
I cannot tell M Go Blue to make a new thread...dammit.

This is a good thread a good resource, thanks for uncovering this Cadet.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
I cannot tell M Go Blue to make a new thread...dammit.

Not only that but his last post on this thread was in the middle of a thought that he promised to finish.

He did make some posts after this on some other threads but never did finish this point.

Sorry Jack for him going over the limit but I do think that in the overall scheme of things it will be worth it.

I hope this thread and some of the others don't get purged as their is quite a bit of wisdom here.

Strangely if you search for MGoBlue another poster comes up who has never posted and registered on 10/18/2011, I can't help wonder if that is PAUL,
because the search does not come up with him as a user here at all.
Well this forum mechanics always was a little strange.

Anyways thanks for humoring me and for anyone who has not read this thread it is well worth the TIME invested.

smile smile smile


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
J
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
J
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
I think the 100 limit rule should be applied to people currently posting, no fears of me locking this up, unless some smart ass decided to start using it as their thread.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,132
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,132
Excellent POST! I suggesting keeping this at the top of the MLC page.


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
job Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
Is there a way to "pin it" at the top of the forum?


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,666
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,666
I am a believer that we create our situations.

My Grandfather left my Grandma for his secretary when I was seven. He moved to Florida with the OW and never came back. I saw him once after he left. He sent me $5 when I graduated from high school. Those two times were my only contact.

My Dad left my mom for his secretary when I was 13. Turned out he had been lying for years and having serial affairs. He tried to stay in my life, but I was full of rage for a decade after.

My husband deserted us around December of last year. He is now a phantom.

So, ya think I need to work on abandonment, rejection and betrayal issues? Hmmmmmm...

H told his mom he was going to marry me someday when he was 14 and I was 12. I think i partly married him because he adored me and I thought he would never, ever abandon me. Surprise!!!

Reading a lot of Louisa Hays and doing affirmations. "I am willing to let go of my need to feel rejected in my marriage."

Take care,
Heather


"You know, it's times like these when I realize what a superhero I am." Tony Stark/Iron Man

“Focus on what you can do, then do it with all your heart.” Lois Wilson
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,535
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,535
hey hi - just reading around here- stumbled on your comment:

Quote:
The MLC person is finally taking control of their lives. To others, it comes across as being selfish and repudiating friends, family and loved ones. To the MLC person this is done to protect themselves and save them


i swear - today i feel like this and i'm the lbs. between mlc & family junk- i feel if i don't do something here to stop the emotional drain of my life * & people in it- i'll just be an empty skin.

maybe this is what my h feels. he's been successful and done anything he's wanted all his life=-. things have been easy for him ($$ wise) maybe not so much with parents & family.

i've loved him without stinting- he has always been the guy mortally in charge of his emotions, etc.- real staunch control of self person. maybe he is "saving himself" - an interesting insight. are you having a mlc - ? or do you think you are?

based on your interpretation - maybe i'm heading there. i surely hope not. i do feel i need to somehow get a grip on relationship issues and take charge better of how othrs treat me & relate to me. i'm DONE HERE. doormat no more.

i am not afraid of being dead - i'm afraid of getting dead. dad died at home slowly of lung cancer. i fear it- no doubt of that.

maybe my h feels he's lost hmself and life is passing himby- i am not willing to be the total blame for everything in the universe wrong with his life & him. i still can't believe such a rigidly in control guy like him has gone down this road. he had success on several fronts (law & tennis) a star at both - he had unqualified love & companionship- what he feels he's missing i cannot guess - except maybe youth & vigor.

i'll read on-

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,535
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,535
hiya-

Quote:
Sometimes I wonder if I am just a masochist, and that a sane person would have walked away, and then I remember what an amazingly nice, kind, and good person my h used to be, how much I learned from him, and how I know he would have stood by me in bad times.


me too. if not for the people here - i don't think i'd be still standing. i wonder why i do also - i remember the wonderful person he was for sooooo many years (30+) it's hard to balance so many great times against several terrible years.

where i land in the end - no one knows. i know now what a few women i know went thru. i never fully understood- hard to imagine all that pain out there every day and stupid ole sitcoms still make fun of divorce & mlc-

geeez- thanks for input- it helps us all- it fortifies us- makes it possible to keep trying.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,535
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,535
hi lois -

Quote:
Reading a lot of Louisa Hays and doing affirmations. "I am willing to let go of my need to feel rejected in my marriage."


i'm not understanding this. do you feel that you want to feel rejected? i read your post about grandfather, father- what the heck is it??? is it that kids mirror their parents? could it be as simple as that - they think it's "what people do".

my h's father & mother both cheated on each other and took off for prettier people with lots and lots of money. in ft.lauderdald, it's allllll about money and beauty.

what the heck he was doing with me for 35 years if he wanted beauty & money i don't know. what he wants now, i do not know -

i was between two sisters - one 1.5 yr older and one 10 months younger- i'd say i don't ever remember being anything to anyone in the family- my parents liked other kids better maybe - BUT IT NEVER MATTERED OR i never noticed because i had this great younger sister who was my constant companion in life- and i didn't need them really. oh well huh?

maybe i picked a "hard" "undemonstrative" unyeilding h because that is my mother. she tells me daily how much like him she is- SCCCAAAAARY. MAYBE i want to be rejected too? hence my interest in your comment.

wtf is up with this???

nero #2317818 01/25/13 09:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,622
A
AJM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,622
Hi Nero. Still watching from time to time.

I think the concept of letting go of the need to feel rejected is part of letting go of all of it. That's a victim mentality and letting go of that is important to all of us. We are not victims, because that idea keeps us stuck. What happened, happened.

As for you, do you feel attracted to people that are "hard", "undemonstrative" etc because of your family history? Maybe. Probably not, but it's something only you can discern.

In some ways we do pick people that seem "normal" to us. Normal to us is what we are accustomed to. We grow up with and see "normal" modeled for us. Part of us growing up is figuring out if "normal" is what we want. It's a strong pull though not always what we want nor need smile

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 12

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard