Paul, we are all biased in our R since we are part of our R. We feel hurt and angry that everything is going on and it's always easier to blame others rather than ourselves. It's rare when we take on the responsibility of our actions that resulted in where we are now. The difficult part is that by the time we get here, our MLC spouses usually don't want us to correct the problems anymore.
Angelica, MLC isn't a sickness, per se, but rather it's the individual that has hit a point in their life where they have to acknowledge their own mortality and their future. To do that, they have to strip away everything they know to find out "who" they really are. Most of the time, they come back to the person they were, but they will ALWAYS be changed and not identical to that person. Some also change and are no longer anything like the person they were. We can only pray for them and trust that the person they were is the person they want to be again.
"I made the wall of shadow draw back, beyond desire and act, I walked on.
Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost, I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
Matt, I am not sure that it isn't a kind of sickness - just as when we have over eaten, or drunk too much, and need to get back to our essentials. What I mean is that it is not a state of spiritual health.
They need to go through it, to change, because of what has bought them to that state. I am changed too, and although my marriage was very happy, I can now see it could be better, because I am a different person now, as well.
It isn't spiritually healthy, I agree. The only reason I'm not calling it a sickness anymore is b/c I agree with Paul that it's not something we can cure. It's a process that they need to go through to grow (hopefully) as a person.
"I made the wall of shadow draw back, beyond desire and act, I walked on.
Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost, I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you."
A discussion that reoccurs around here. Sickness or not?
Transition is a part of life. At Midlife there is a midlife transition...We ALL go through this if we live long enough.
The transition need not go to crisis levels. It is not a disease but Dis-Ease. I believe with Paul that the roots are in childhood and adolescence. The Crisis group are denying their transitions. Though perhaps not a sickness in the manner that it is something wrong, it is a state of unhealth. It is a necessary journey toward greater Self and spiritual growth and awareness.
Hmmm...maybe for me the requirement for something to be sicknesss is that it is something wrong or not meant to be. The opposite of wrng is not right, because I am not saying MLC is right. MLT is right and MLC is a curvy path of denial and avoidance.
Angelica, I agree. Each person can work their way through if they are willing to deal with the pain that they will encounter on the road rather than stuff it into the closet. I see my H still spinning in circles. Every now and again I do get a glimpse of the person that I knew but I must admit for my own purposes, I pretty much stay away from him. I have done this for my own health, safety and mental security.
I do not initiate contact unless it is about the children or finances. If he comes to visit the children at my house, I go about the busines of cleaning the kitchen,calling friends, going out to a store or otherwise occupying myself. It seems that he is trying to remain in the children's good graces by buying them things but my son is still not going for it.
Funny, on the batcave thread I mentioned that H is becoming frustrated that I only communicate with him through the children and how he eats fast food and cans of soup. He came over last night and I was still cleaning up after dinner. I made barbecued pork chops, rice and string beans and had some left over baked ziti (it was delicious by the way). So, he was doing something with the kids and I was in the kitchen. Suddenly,he walked up next to me and said "Do you mind if I take a pork chop?" I said,"I think that they are cold." I nearly fell out on the floor by what he said next... "It's okay, I don't mind." Ok, now understand this was a man that would not eat a grain of rice if it was at room temperature, his soda had to be darn near frozen and his food PIPING HOT.
Before I knew it he grabbed a pork chop sauce and all, I could not even pass him a paper towel and he literally swallowed the pork chop in 3 bites. I told my D who had walked over by this time to ask Dad if he wanted some baked ziti. I put some on a plate and she took it to him and it was inhaled before I could finish washing a few glasses. Guess homecooking is being missed,huh? Oh well, his choice. My cooking is darn good.
I no longer call him Daddy in the children's presence, I refer to him as "your father". It takes the "endearment" out of my side and makes it a lot easier for me to detach.
My point is, these are not the people that we know so we have to take on the persona of being not so much the person that they knew either.
I am less influenced by how he feels and more concnerned about what works for me and the kids. He seems frustrated somewhat by it. Particularly with me not initiating contact, allowing him to communicate directly with the children and me not serve as a buffer, and not being so easily controlled. As said before, it is what works for me. So funny, he once said "I feel like I am talking someone who is not there when I talk to you, why can't you just tell me. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?" My responses are friendly but short and professional. He wanted it this way so things will have to change for me. Either way, I will be okay. That is how I see it now. Don't get me wrong, I miss him. But I MISS HIM,not the monster that he has become.
MLC is a horrible monster, I have been there and you really cannot remember which way is up but at some point the spouse with the brain screwed on correctly, needs to hold them accountable but from a safe enough distance that green vomit does not get slapped in our direction. Once you get into holding them accountable instead of feeling sorry for yourself or them, the world becomes a much brighter place and you are carrying a lighter load.
To quote my therapist, "You cannot carry around 180lbs of dead weight. You can sit around and wait and try to carry it but you will not have your mind when you can't carry it anymore."
Everhopeful - the wolfing down food I have also seen!! And the NC - I have had aggrieved complaints that I don't respond to emails or want to talk on the phone . . . . well, no, not to the person he currently is. There is no percentage in it.
I have to say, I love reading the things you write, b/c in many ways you are very similar to my H. Similar childhood (father/mother that you once described), and even the pattern of your MLC (many OP, which I feel is not as common...just running to fix the pain and seek happiness).
Also, much of what you write, about childhood issues, is at the core for my H. The feeling of FEAR and LOVE. My H truly, so he says at times, does not feel worthy. Fears rejection desperately. He's probably one of the few MLCers here who has listened to me rip him apart (recently) for hours, and admitted to all of it and felt so terribly. When I did not do that, he asked me for it "do you want to tell me what I did wrong." Almost wanting to be reprimanded.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that MLC is a manifestation of issues that existed that come out during the transition period. And just because MLC behaviors are over, does not mean all is well. The core issues need to be faced and resolved. I have heard my H recount his issues (self esteem, self hate, jealousy) and address his childhood issues.
I have been guilty, in my own pain and anger, recently of making him feel guilty and ashamed. I pushed that on him. I'm human too, and have been through a lot. I do vary in opinion that MLC behavior is simply a difference in perception. There are "norms" in life/culture. When agreeing to M, youagree to those set of norms. It's a set of perceptions that you both agree on. Do people stray, make mistakes, grow? yes. I did too.
But, I would suspect that part of the anger/pushing away from the MLCer during MLC is because they themselves cannot reconcile that their behavior is simply a different perception. Or else they would act more comfortably with it. My H had a LOT of guilt through his MLC, long before I found about OW, and even when I did, I was silent about it. He cried so many times, felt suicidal, and I had no idea why. I suspect it was because he was going against his own values and core. Necessary, yes, obviously since it was so painful and he still did it.
Was it painful for me? Yes. It still is. I also think part of "growth" from MLC that you have so beautifully gone through and we all HOPE our spouses do, is from coming out and facing what has happened to your life. To still stand strong and come out of that, to face it, forgive yourself, grow from the lesson.
My brother went through his own QLC. He said the hardest yet most powerful part of the whole experience was coming out. Climbing out of the hole. Sitting before others and explaining, facing and growing from that to be a strong person and love yourself.
So, while I think forgiveness and compassion are important, I also think that the MLCer not facing the pain they caused is not beneficial either. I think it's part of "sweeping under the rug" that feeds into the avoidance and not facing the issues that caused the MLC to begin with. When you are faced with destruction, you are forced to ask "why did this happen to begin with....I was not the type of person to destroy my life I worked so hard to build."
Sure, maybe the MLCer has a different perception of life during the crisis time...I agree with that. It's not the perception of M they originally had, though. I know for a fact that my H surprised himself, he did not have a vision of M that he does now, it changed during his MLC, but not comfortably. But, coming out of MLC, they face that though they had a different perception, they did let down another person's perception...a person who counted on the perception they originally promised.
Keep writing, Paul. Your words ring so true. They help me process. And , believe it or not, they help me come back down to earth in understanding my H...as much as I can.
I don't expect everyone to agree with my thoughts nor my beliefs. Even I eventually disagree with my past beliefs and understandings as I have more experiences in which to question myself of what I formerly thought to be the truth.
I don't fully understand what you mean by external reality vs. internal reality. Could you please explain?
For me, what seems real may not be real for you, as we each have different perceptions of what has occured or what we sense. With my limited understanding, I'm not sure there is only one reality, but many different perceptions of reality.
Maybe there is one realiity. To me, it seems like deciding what is right and what is wrong determines reality. What someone believes is right could be there reality. If someone else chooses the opposite as right for them, then they believe that is their reality.
For me, it comes down to what works and what doesn't work. Is reality the "truth?"
When Gary Zukav was asked what is the truth? He said, "that which does not harm."
Please share with me your thoughts on reality as it may enlighten me to something I struggle to understand.
It is interesting the things a MLC spouse say to us at times. We often wonder, "where did that come from." What they say seems so foreign to a person who is not in touch with themselves and are so lost and confused. My XW told me that her leaving the marriage was not about me but was about her. There was something happening to her that she did not understand.
I do realize there are MLC spouses who have gotten back together and are living happy lives. At least that is what is seen on the surface. How many people do you know who are in MLC, had been walking around wearing the "mask" of everything is okay, prior to revealing that there marriage had been a lie and they never loved their spouse?
The Silent Sons of the world do not reveal their true feelings, just as the silent daughters go about smiling and saying I'm okay, everything is fine.
My XW had a beautiful smile that she used to protect herself from showing her true feelings. When people would ask her if she was all right. she would just smile and say everything is fine. She really surprised a lot of people when she revealed the fury of MLC that had been trapped inside of her for so many years.
Back in 1999 when I first came here I too thought MLC was an illness that could be cured. What I eventually realized, in MO, that it was not a disease or illness but was part of human emotional and spiritual development.
A MLC person did not develop emotionally during childhood and adolesence and now is having to go through a transition to adulthood where they go back and relive their youth before they can move forward. They failed to learn what they needed to the first time through life school, so now they have to return to a previous time to learn that which they missed the first time.
As I am understanding more fully, life is not lived on a linear line. We mark time as from birth to ones current age and eventualy death. Our lives are eternal, birth and death are merely transitions from the non-physical to the physical and then back to the non-physical world. We repeat this cycle over and over. What we don't learn this time here in the "Earth School" we will get an opportunity to learn the next time we pass through.
We travel forward, backward, side to side, up and down, around and around we go. Why does MLC feel like we are traveling on a roller coaster? Yes, our emotions are all over the place, up and then down. But maybe our lives are moving forward, backward and every which way possible.
The LBS spends a great deal of time living in the past. They talk about how the marriage used to be and the desire to return to those "better days." The LBS also spends a great deal of time in the futre. Saying things like; "someday we will get back together." Our not living today while waithing for that "someday" when everything will be good again keeps us stuck from living life.
The LBS really struggles living in the moment. I know this very well as I spent a great deal of time looking back to how things used to be and a great deal of time wishing for that "someday" when my XW and I would be together again. I din't want to deal with the pain in the present moment.
But by avoiding dealing with the present kept me stuck from moving forward. Eventually I realized for me that this was insanity waiting for something to change that was totally out of my control. I decided to take control of what was within my power and get back to livng again.
Whether a MLC person learns from their experience and grows from it will ultimately come down to "their choosing." God gives us Free Will to live our lives in what ever fashion we choose. We can choose to remain stuck in the past and blame others for all of our emotional problems, or we can learn to understand the connection to our past and present, learn from it, and then make choices that are more healthy mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
We all have the power to make choices. Some us will choose to make better choices, some will remain stuck in continually making the same old choices and wonder why sh$t keeps happening "to them."
Paul - You have asked some tough questions, but I believe that MLCers 'truth' is actually a tissue of lies. It does not resonate either with their preiouvs words or behaviours. It has no consistency with their previous selves. it is a disjunct, which many MLCers who come out of it admit to. It seemed like the truth at the time, and they neded it to be the truth, because reaity had suddenly become painful.
I am arrogant enough to believe that I know when someone is teling the truth, much of the time. Many MLCs come on very fast to the actual crisis, when they drop the bomb - they are slow in building, but they erupt like a head of steam. It is at this point, for many [though maybe not for you] that the rewriting of history takes place. It IS a rewriting of history. Their heart was NOT breaking at that party 2 years ago, They have now decided that their heart was breaking, because they are doing things they don't understand, because they are in the grip of emotional crisis, dealing with stuff that has bubbled up from the deep past. It is real at the time, but that doesn't make it real. If you build a wooden car it isn't actually a car, but a type of illusion. Is that reality?
Yes, the people I know who have come through MLC may still be deeply unhappy, but they are great fun, emotionally honest, committed to their family and friends. In short behaving like normal people.
It is not normal, in my view to repudiate all your former friends, break contact with you chldren, and family, as well as your spouse. this is about far more than an unhappy marriage. MLCers lie, manipulate, are abusive, sometimes even physically. When they work through their crisis, all of this stops. Are you seriously telling us here, that they are all still deeply unhappy people?
If I didn't believe that people can heal and achieve emotional happiness, and intimacy again, life would lose a hugely important dimension. That is not the same as 'wanting them back' it is a belief that healing can and does take place and that we can grow and learn.
To dismissively suggest that these former MLCers are still walking around in pain does not correspond to any reality that I recognise. They certainly did not go back to their families out of a misplaced sense of duty, but because they wanted to be with the peole they loved, had lost sight of that love, but found it again, and built on it. It is a choice.
The problem with your view that all reality is relative is that it gives us no vocabulary for dealing with the delusional and paranoid, if their reaity is as fully valid. If I believe that martians are controlling the thoughts of President Bush who is to say I am incorrect in your view of the world?
Just a note to say thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us all. It is good to pose different points of view as it allows all of us to learn and grow, apply theory and see what works in our individual situations.
Having been through MLC and now witnessing what I see as my H's MLC based upon some things that he has said and done over the past 2 years I agree with some of what both of you have stated.
MLC is definately about revisiting past experiences and childhood/adolescent issues.
Might I add that MLC is also about how enabled a person has been, my H for example has been taken care of his entire life without having to do much of anything other than "be nice". He went from being waited on hand and foot by his older sisters (he is the youngest) to sort of raising himself when all of the other siblings got married and moved out as his parents were elderly right into my house where I was so concerned about appearances and being a good wife that I virtually demanded nothing of him in and around the house.
He never had a real chance to be a teenager or young adult and struggled with being irresponsible. So, it has come back to bite him at 40. I have had issues that I discussed earlier in the thread and a few others.
What I also see from my own "recovery" is that something has to happen to snap you out of your self imposed delusional world. Just like a series of things must happen to send you into it. But even though those things happen to send you in, if you are immature to begin with or maybe if you had no relationship with God BEFORE you went into MLC it will take you that much longer to snap out of it or the incident will have to be that much more earth shattering to get you to snap out of it.JMHO.
So, herein lies my theory. Circumstances and conditions contribute to the state of mind that you are in when MLC comes your way, how you handle it and work out of it. Other people do play some small part in how you work your way out.
In how accountable they hold you for your actions, how enabling they are to you, how much distance they put between themselves and you, and if you as the person in MLC is mature enough to handle the helping of laxative that you have served yourself.
Some may take what seems like forever to a normal person (it took my Dad almost 20 years, give or take a few and we were not around him all of this time.) Point is, to him it does not seem that long at all. But to my Mom, my sister and I and to his brother and sister... it has been a lifetime and one that he missed out on. We can never go back, he sees us as adults but cannot understand how we got to. Sometimes I catch him looking at us and I can see the wonderment on his face ... time got away from him and he knows it.
