Michele, in last 3 wks, I read DB & 7 steps (Great books!!), talked w/ Arnold. I had a severe anger problem which is now completely resolved via God & my forgiving others (my thread in newcomers - So Scared Have I Lost Him). My H says he hates me due to years of verbal abuse (10 total, 1.5 married). In the midst of this I confirmed he's having a PA--happening for 1 month. I don't blame him 100% since I was barely civil (little talk, no affection or I love yous) to him in the last three months--he said if he'd felt loved it prob. wouldn't have happened. I'm willing to forgive the affair & work on us but he finds it hard to believe I've changed & won't hurt him again. DB says not to pursue but since our problems arose from coldness--can my 180 be love/pursuit? He seems to be seeking it--asked if I even cared if I lost him. Don't want to drive him further away...plus he says he is emotionally attached to OW at this point. Help! What techniques do I use? (Thanks!)
quote:Originally posted by Michele: Reachingout, Don't move out. Stay friendly but withdrawn. You say she's noticed your 180's. How so? What's been different? Don't pressure her about her PA. Read the chapter on infidelity if you haven't already, especially the last section.
Thanks Michele. I've re-read the infidelity section but I find it hard to completely relate because it was an EA. She told me about before it turned into PA (3 days after mutual admiration/feelings talk with OM). I don't believe it reached PA before she asked him to back off (less than 2 weeks after admission of feelings). We talked alot the first week after everything was in the open. She told our therapist she noticed I'm really listening now and she's enjoyed our talks. She's open to hanging out with me as friends and I can tell she still feels comfort in our hugs. She would have "loved to go" to the ballgame today, but she didn't know it was a day game and she had to work.
I've got my goals set. One of them is to not backslide. It should be easy to tell if she get's more distant. Another is to get her to stop feeling like she needs to warn friends that "Me and R might not be me and R anymore."
This morning there was a death in the family. I want to console her and have been, but I also dont want to try too hard. Even in times like this should I just let her come to me? I don't want to give her reason to seek emotional comfort with OM. It's a little hard to be withdrawn in this situation. Any suggestions?
-r
[This message has been edited by reachingout (edited 09-05-2001).]
Short my wife left and filed for D in July. I have been Db since. I came aware of A with a man that was a clinical instructor of hers in a graduate program. I called his house this past weekend in AM to tell her when I would bring back the boys (2-7,11). Until this point she did not know I knew. Prior week she gave me a hug and was confiding some in me as her support friend had a mental breakdown. I took the boys back and smiled at her. She gave me the "its not what you think" I switched the subject to a lunch date the next day to talk about the boys. Kept the lunch, had a great time. Laughed and talked for a long time. No OR. This AM she calls me with a wake up call with Misc stuff then stops by to see one of the boys on her way to work.
I am planning on going very very dark here. I am still waiting for you book to arrive but I need to emotionally detach. I don't trust her or her motives. Suggestions. Distancing and not calling were working before and still seem to.
This is my first post on your message board. I am reading The Divorce Remedy and find it to on target with respect to my situation. My wife and I have been married for 13 years (I'm 48, she's 43 and this is both of our second marriages), and, especially since the birth of our second child 5 years ago, we have been drifting furhter and further apart. My wife wasn't meeting my needs (marriage has to be more than raising the kids -the children have been her only major major priority - an understandable one given our loss of two babies early in the third tri-mester from pre-term labor) and I wasn't meeting hers (intense emotional connectedness, lots of romance and sharing of feelings). Her attempts to get me to meet her needs felt like nagging, and I just emotionally and physically checked out on her somewhere around 1 1/2 years ago. I think I may have been clinically depressed, at least my life at home (but not work) felt like I was often in a fog.
In any event I finally woke up one day and asked her why she was so unhappy. While I knew we had problems (serious ones, that I had been ignoring because I was too much of a coward to face another lecture about her needing more romance,more intense emotional connectedness and more sharing of feelings), I was surprised, shocked and dismayed to find out that she had basically given up on our marriage.
So, now that I'm ready to move forward she's stuck. From reading your book, it seems like a pretty classic Walk-Away Wife situation. I love my wife and value our marriage. I feel like a real schmuck for sitting on my hands so long, for putting her through all her pain, and putting myself into the bottom of the ninth with two outs, nobody on base and behind 9-0.
We are both in marital counseling (for about 6 weeks, same counseler she was seeing for 6 months -- I thought for grief counseling to help her with the death of her father, but as it turns out, our marriage and I was the main source of discusssion).
So...here is my question. I am certainly at a point where I cannot ask my wife for anything (Chapter 3). While we are friendly, there is no physical intimacy, and she has indicated great pessimism that I can change, and even suggests that change isn't even relevant. Her main perspective is that we got to where we are because we both have different beliefs and values, and over time we changed to a point where there just isn't enough common ground to build on. Her attitude towards change is that, if you have to change (other than superficial change) then you aren't being true to yourself and as a result, the change is wrong. She says she is okay the way she is and I am ok the way I am, and if we no longer connect, then it must be a case of irreconcileable differences. I don't believe any of this, but I'm only 50% of this general partnership.
Don't worry, there is a question. One of the real sticking points that has been a barrier to effective communication between my wife and I, is that whenever I ask my wife to give me a specific example of what I can do that would help her feel the kind of closeness and shared feelings she is looking for, all I get are more vague references, a lot of churning of hands, and a look on her face that says "how can I make the blind see?". The closest she comes to being specific is to say that if I was willing to sit and talk about anything and everything with her and some of her friends (male and female)frequently, for an extended period of time (3-4 hours) that this bonding might take place. I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for me, I've tried and it just wears me down. Finally, here comes the question, How can I get my wife to articulate more clearly and in a more action oriented way, what she wants me to do (at that point when the timing is right to bring up the subject of me asking her and her asking me for specific changes -- until then, I'm just working on me, and trying to be as good a housemate and father as I can be). Being specific and giving action-oriented examples is a real issue for her, so unless we can overcome this, I'm not sure how to make any progress.
On a scale of 1 to 10, about 7 months ago our marriage was at about 1 1/2. Today we're looking at about a 6 1/2. Not REAL satisfied right now, and would be happy at 8 1/2 or 9. (I AM pretty happy, and thankful, for the progress we've made so far, though.) One thing I feel would bring things up a 1/2 step (or more!) would be regaining the physical intimacy we once had in our relationship.
Some things that I / we could do…..
1. Arrange for the children to be gone from the house occasionally. 2. Create special, romantic evenings together. 3. Let go of our guilt and fears. 4. Get the om totally out of our lives. (I'm pretty sure W's done with him, but I don't think she made that really clear to him. She kinda left it hanging, hoping he'd go away, and he hasn't. Not quite sure what to do on this one, confront HIM, or just do nothing)
When it comes to initiating physical intimacy, I've been letting her take the lead. This has been getting mixed results, with numerous hot and cold periods. Many of the cold times seem to be due to times of contact with om. It seems like the hot times were the times when she convinced herself things were over with him. (Oops! Blame game?! I DO need to pay more attention to what's going on during these times. I'm sure it goes beyond just these things.) One of the things she talked about their R was the raw passion between them (it was, though, both good and bad). She did mention one time that we had that really sticks in her memory was when I came home from work one day, dragged her into the bedroom without saying a word, and ravished her. There were many other times when our physical intimacy was daring and exciting and "passionate". I have been hesitant about instigating this lately because of all the circumstances, but I may be wrong. It was "more of what worked" in the past, so it might be time to see if it works now. Maybe "act-as-if" things were back to normal?
When I first moved back home, things were in total chaos. I've been the "calm, stable, and rational" one while things have been getting settled down. As I'm looking back now, there has been times when my "losing it" has been quite effective. Or maybe it was more of a standing up and making my boundaries VERY clear. This doesn't always go over very well at the time, but usually produces results soon after. One good example of this is the last time I discovered she and om had renewed frequent contact, I left her a copy of an article from the marriage-builders web site about how affairs should end. I highlighted the parts I wanted to make sure she paid attention to, and didn't say a word or ask her about it. Within 2 days, she set up our first appointment to see a counselor together.
My W's dealing with a lot of low self-esteem issues, but is slowly working through them. She goes through periods when she seems to push me away, and questions why I want to be with her when she's so screwed up. I try to use the pursuer / distancer dynamics to my advantage during these times, even just for very brief periods, and it's been working pretty well. I try to be careful, though, as she is still unsure that I'm going to stick around, and it was during a period of my going very dark that she hooked up with om. He is a "bad boy", a user and a loser. Her ego was such that he had her convinced that he was the best she could get. She still struggles at times about being with the loser crowd, it's much easier to live "down" to their standards. I try to be careful about having very many expectations of her because of this.
She is the type of person who cheers for the underdog, and likes to help and to "own" other people's problems. She has the biggest heart of anyone I know, which makes it easy for others to take advantage of her. I've found that she wants me to be strong, but she has a tendency to not worry about how her actions affect me because of that strength. When I show some of my weaknesses, share some of my non-OR problems with her, it seems to draw her back towards me.
Overall, I've pretty much been letting the situation proceed at her pace. This has been working pretty well so far, however, I do get torn about whether are not I should be taking a stronger lead. Or if I should stick with the "butterfly effect", and keep nudging just a little to keep things rolling in the right direction. It does seem that anytime I push very much, I'm faced with an unmoveable object.
Thanks, Michele! Sorry this was so long, but you got me really thinking again!
[This message has been edited by Jamesjohn (edited 09-05-2001).]
JJ
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Michele, Little bit of history: We have been married almost two years. We had a daughter and we broke up during the first trimester of my pregnancy with her. She is three now, marriage almost two years and a new baby due in three days. About two weeks ago I noticed couple of strange behaviors by my husband. He finally told me the reason he came home late (after I blew up). He has been talking to this friend (female - only friend per him and her ) each night, about 2 hours each time. This is only phone friendship, they have never actually seen each other in person. In the anger I said few things and one of them was whether he was looking for a divorce. After our daughter went to bed he said how he doesn’t love me anymore. He has been pretending all this time about our love. He acted as if he was in love but the feelings never caught up to that. He married me for the wrong reasons, family pressure. Few days later he came a little down on some of those but still he doesn’t love me and doesn’t believe he can ever love me. He should have broken up with me many years ago and the bad mistake is that now he will have two children with me. We went to see a counselor and had 3 nice evenings together. Nothing intimate just talking and we felt connected again. I told him I don’t mind if he is talking to his friend but please don’t be sneaking around. I again caught him sneaking around and then that he sent her a present. I blew up (not a good thing) and asked him to move out. He didn’t want to do that. I forced him out the next morning and he did it. That was 5 days ago. We spoke today and he said he is not moving back in. He will go to talk to a counselor with me. He said he will read the Divorce Remedy book. Should I give the book to him so he can read it? He said he is never going to move back in. Since he has been out he said he has been very happy other then missing his daughter. He has also talked to the OW (friend) every night since he has been away. Is there even a point to the counseling, I am still trying to find one. Should I go dark on him? Just stay friendly. I have read the book but I can’t see me being able to apply a lot of it as HE IS OUT OF THE HOUSE. I guess I did the LRT without even realizing I did it. I gave him what he wanted. I guess I am not sure how I can experiment and watch for results when he is not in the house and is telling me he will never be back here.
Just want you all to know that I'm reading your posts but I am also preparing for some media tomorrow. I will get to your questions as soon as I can! Micehle
W went to group therapy for Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD). Had a semi-physical affair with someone from the group. Wasn't sure if she wanted to work on the marriage. Eventually went to therapy, but her heart wasn't really into it, and she quit almost right away and moved in with OM (it remained only semi-physical... she claims they did nothing more than kiss. I'm pretty sure I believe her.). Stayed with him for a little bit and then moved in with her parents in Chicago (we were in California). Got homesick for CA and wanted to move back in with me "as friends." I tried to be a good friend, even comforted her when OM moved back in with his wife and she was upset (which took a LOT of strength). But I also started getting impatient and depressed because I wanted more. She was starting to feel trapped while she was trying to work on herself and her SAD and moved out again. This time she's staying with a cousin in CA. But she left without even telling me she was leaving (I was very worried about her until I found some stuff missing of hers when I came home from work one day). It's been three weeks and I've only very briefly heard from her in a short email letting me know where she was. I was planning on using the last resort technique from your book of basically not talking to her and seeing what happens. While talking to my marriage therapist today, though, he seemed to be suggesting more of the "Love Must be Tough" approach. (He didn't describe it as such, but it was basically the same thing.) What he was saying is that I've been putting everything in her court.... that she knows that I'd be devastated without her and that I'm basically waiting for her while she does whatever she wants and that I should show a bit of backbone and see what happens, hopefully making her respect me more. I can see the logic behind that and was even considering it myself for a bit. But I'm not sure if that's the right way to go. It would definitely be a big 180 if I did it the right way, but the problem is if it backfires, I can't go back on it or I lose all my credibility. I handled things poorly before and now I'm treading a very thin rope and any mistake could cost me a lot. I'm not sure which approach is the best way to go.
Just finished your book and as expected, it was wonderful. I always pick up new techniques and ideas.
Although I've been practicing all of the recommended techniques from day one my H walked out, I think that being separated makes things a lot harder.
I focused on the chapter "putting it all together" and felt that the Dean and Carol scenario was close to my situation with the exceptions that a) my H did not leave for a/w b) we are separated, now 11 months.
Is there really any hope for two people that are now just "real good friends" and nothing more. My H hasn't talked about anything pertaining to our relationship since Feb. of this year. He still was moving on with his life and was afraid to come home because he felt things would just be the same.
Now, we have a great friendship and haven't had a disagreement or sour note since the day he walked out. Due to my pride, I instantly did a 180 and never pursued him or have ever addressed our relationship or future. But how do I know whether he is actually happier being alone, living like a batchelor? He's being wonderful, sweet and has definetely made wonderful changes; however, I feel so much that he's too comfortable right now to want to return home to the routines of marriage.
When is the right time to address this? Do I just sit back and continue waiting for him to put closure on this? I'm at a stand still right now and I really don't know what to do. Our relationship is great but when will I know whether it's going to move into anything other than a friendly one?
Hi Everyone! I just read where Michelle's book has made it to the top 100 at Amazon--A well deserved congratulations ,Michelle! Good luck with the media event. This book has so much value in helping people. I hope you make it to the top 10!!!
