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Hi there,
Our marriage of 20 yrs has been in difficulty for a few years now. I have been using the LRT during this, validating when I can, turning the other cheek, staying strong, not talking relationship, etc. Nothing has helped - my wife hardly ever touches me and we have not shared a bed since 2004. She says she is like the tennis player in "Matchpoint", a character whose morals I cannot sympathize with.

What do you all think of this letter - I feel at the end of my tether, after three years of no physical affection:

Dear -,

Three years ago you left our bed and started your “do not touch him” policy. I have found this treatment very hard and even one year of such behavior is sufficient grounds for divorce in many places.

At first I tried to reestablish contact, but after numerous rebuffs, decided more pain is not worth it. I also thought that you might change your mind when you understood the depth of my love and commitment to you, which I hope I have shown you, and so waited. (Did you know that the pastor at our wedding told me to turn the other cheek? I have tried to do just that).

The waiting on my part is now over and you need to make a decision. As I see it, we can either try to improve our relationship or terminate it. Improving might be, for example, going to individual counseling – not together – and rebuilding our relationship. Termination would involve just that – selling the house, dividing up our things, moving apart and stopping all unnecessary communication. Some collateral damage – the poor, dear children –is unavoidable, but we could work to minimize this.

Perhaps there is a third way; if so, please tell me about it. Perhaps there is a better way to improve our relationship; if so, please propose it. Any third way cannot, however, as far as I am concerned, involve compromising our marriage; I am a moral absolutist on this count and have stayed true to you.

So, enough is enough. I have had a bunch of truly wonderful years with you, but your recent lack of love, sometimes respect and even simple affection has hurt me deeply. Please think carefully about this, make your decision and then let us quickly carry it out.

Love,

--


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What is the character from Matchpoint? How does it describe your W?

I can totally sympathize with getting no affection for that long. That would break anybody. But, you suggest counseling in your letter...have you sought out a solution based counselor for yourself already? Maybe they could offer another option besides an ultimatum in a letter?


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Hi Optimist,
The character is a semi-good tennis player, not good enough to play with the top pros, who wants up in the world, and marries a girl in order to get connected to her rich family. He isn't thrilled by or really in love with her, calling her 'sweet'. On the side, he has a passionate affair with the former fiance of his wife's brother, getting her pregnant, which leads to all sorts of complications...
My wife is like him in that she likes the comforts of married life, a house, an income providing husband, but also the thrill of another romance outside. It seems to me that you can't have it both ways and respect the idea of marriage - hence the proposed letter.
No, I have not found a counselor yet. I still have a few paid for DB sessions that might be useful - should do that. An ultimatum is simple, but maybe too brutal, too red pill/blue pill.
Thanks, LL


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And SHE admits that she is like this character?


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Hi Optimist,
No, not directly, but she says the movie is great and I believe I understand that this is the reason. My wife is a passionate, thrill-seeking, romance hungry person, who admires an older guy we know who has had 6 wives, that he has had so much variety in his life. While I can see her point, I can also see the point of a stable, safe, marriage, which by the way I am trying to keep interesting with trips to unusual places (we just went to Japan, will probably go to Turkey this fall), good food (I am the cook), and continued kindness (mind you, she once said she wanted me to fight back, but this contradicts the LRT). My hope is that a 'let her be' approach, along with being there when she wants me, will lead to her seeing that being married and I are worth it.
Can you think of another way beyond an ultimatum? Something does need to change, but I can't see what, especially given the point we are at -
LL


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Well, I am sure not a therapist, and am not real good at coming up with ideas for other people's situations. I've done pretty well with my own, but my H started coming around before I even found DR.

So you have already had a phone consultation with a DB coach? Did you find it helpful? What tips did you get and how did you use them?


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Hi - yes, a few of them and thinking of having another one soon. My wife's earlier boyfriends were quite different from me - a football star, a wrestling champ, a motorcyclist, etc. while I am a mild-mannered engineer, certainly not so exciting. The coach suggested a surprise bout of lovemaking, but this seems risky and not my style... She also suggested avoiding competition with my wife, who ran the marathon last year, and used to run with me until she outran me... she likes exciting, risk-taking activities, I prefer interesting ones, such as our recent trip to Japan. The thing is, we actually have pretty similar interests, but different styles... she is outspoken, dominant, places stock in appearances, can seem arrogant, while I am quieter, play '2nd fiddle' and believe modesty is a virtue. A 180 seems possible, but what could this be? Whatever it is has to fit with having two kids, lots of work and an irregular schedule. Hmm...


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Martial arts? Very physical but also very exacting. Something an engineer might like. Something you could do on your own and make your own (unless of course, W already does martial arts).

Have you tried going dark, at least some? You sound like the stable dependable type that W might miss once she gets the chance to miss it.

I agree with you that modesty is a virtue. It sounds like you are dealing with an introversion/extroversion issue (among other issues, of course) with your W. I know that introverts and extroverts often attract each other because they're opposites. I used to think I wanted an extroverted man because of this. But, I found out that I really enjoy extroverted friends, but when it comes to someone I want to live with day in and day out, I'd prefer a fellow introvert that doesn't demand me to react to them constantly. Anyway...that's an unrelated tangent...

If you've already paid for the DB sessions and you are at the point of giving your wife an ultimatum, then I'd say USE THOSE DB SESSIONS!! Do you think you're putting it off for some reason? You know procrastination is always based on an emotional aversion to something.


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Hi again,
Sorry for being out of touch - was on a business trip. I just found out (my wife left me a note, and I happened to look at the back) that my wife is having an affair, apparently while she was on a business trip also. Not sure whether to confront her - it was hard to read "those precious extra hours... with the feel of you etc. etc." and that this person had driven very far to see her. She did end with "i don't want really to be told things about you, i think a good friend anyway senses well enough the other guy's vulnerabilities and is protective. I would be happy if you only thought I was a charming pretty long-haired woman. Wny not, I don't wnat to put any weight on your shoulders".
What should I do? Confront her? Does the end imply that she is not having an affair? Does the "charming, pretty ..." mean this was only for her vanity?
Confused - LL


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Hi LL,

Sorry I can't tell you what the note means for sure, although I'm pretty sure she wanted you to know about it. Writing a note to you on the back of it sounds calculated to me, unless she's a complete dimwit (doubtful).

I actually have to run out, but I wanted to recommend a book called "101 nights of great romance" and "101 nights of great sex" by Laura Corn. I am looking forward to implementing them when H comes home! We actually used a couple a few years ago, but stopped. What you do is, one day a week, you each pick a page and tear it out w/o letting your partner see it. Then you surprise them sometime during the week. Judging from what you've said about your W's personality, I think she might like it.

Does she share her fantasies with you? Is there something you might be willing to try? Would she like role-playing? Sorry if this sounds kinky, it's not meant to be! That would also be a way of her getting "variety."

Deep down underneath all this, I wonder if it's more about her self-esteem, and her need to feel desirable as she gets older.

Got to go,
Nicola


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Geez LL, I wish my H would have written me that letter.

We have the same problem except I don't admire any other man nor do I fantasize about someone else other than my H. However, I have zero libido, and we had been living like roommates...heck, even roommates probably had more sex than us.

Without a word of warning, my H left one day. He's been back but only as a friend. After the initial shock of him leaving, I'm really starting to get pissed off! I'm to the point that I feel like telling him to file for divorce. If he was thinking of leaving for some time, why in the hell did we keep buying stuff for the house? After sharing 12 years of our lives together, I can't believe he took the coward approach and left. BTW, he's an unemployed college student, so it's not like I was after him for his money.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but either give your wife the letter or dump her!


Me - 48 (at time of 1st bomb)
H - 43
married - 16 Jul 94
no children
1st bomb - (said he was leaving) - 3 Jun 06
2nd bomb (said he was ready to file) - 10 Nov 06
H filed divorce - 17 Nov 06
Divorce finalized - 20 Jul 07
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Hi Alamogirl,
Thanks for your post. Yeah, it does seem fair to give her a headsup, though I need to control my anger in the tone, before really dumping her. There is only so much rejection one can take, so many times you try to reestablish romance and are rebuffed - wonder how she can think a marriage can last if she never returns any affection, never even holds my hand. True, she spends plenty of time with me, but how can this half-life continue without some even small amount of physical contact? It seems we have a future, just like you we buy things for the house, like it can go on, but there is an undercurrent ... sleeping together again would be nice also... mere sex together, not that it could even happen, would seem less than love, just physical and not romantic?
Frustrated - LL


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Hi again,
I've thought some more about your comments on the tone of the letter, and come up with this. What do you think?

Dear -,

Three years ago you left our bed and started your “do not touch -” policy. I have found this treatment very hard to bear. Even one year of abandonment is sufficient grounds for divorce in many places. I don’t understand why you are doing this unless you want to end our marriage.

At first and then sporadically thereafter I tried to reestablish contact, but after repeated rebuffs, decided more pain is not worth it. I also thought that you might change your mind when you understood the depth of my love and commitment to you, which I hope I have shown you, and so waited. (Did you know that the pastor at our wedding told me to turn the other cheek? I have tried to do just that).

I know about your relationship with R. I do not understand how your sense of honor and fairness could let you cheat like that... to my mind marriage and cheating are incompatible. What do you want?

The waiting on my part is now over and you need to make a decision. As I see it, we can either try to improve our relationship or terminate it. Improving might be, for example, going to individual counseling – not together – and rebuilding our relationship. Termination would involve just that – selling the house, dividing up our things, moving apart, stopping unnecessary communication. Some collateral damage would be unavoidable.

Perhaps there is a third way; if so, please tell me about it. Perhaps there is a better way to improve our relationship; if so, please propose it. Any third way cannot, however, as far as I am concerned, involve compromising our marriage; I am a moral absolutist on this count and have stayed true to you.

So, enough is enough. I have had a bunch of truly wonderful years with you, but your recent lack of love, sometimes respect and even simple affection has hurt me deeply. Please think carefully about this, make your decision and then let us quickly carry it out.

Love,

--


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Hi LL,

Now that it seems as if your wife wanted you to read the back side of her note, I would definitely give her that letter.

As I said before, if my H would have sat me down and told me everything you have written in your proposed letter, I know in my heart that I would have done everything in my power to find out why my libido was dead .

He complained but that was it. We often joked about it, but I honestly didn't know how it was affecting him. I read in "Dr. Ellen's" website, that sex governs a man's well-being from how he treats his family to his co-workers. Dr. Ellen didn't say it directly, but I was reading Q/A from other people who wrote in. I was crushed to find out that I was torturing my H. That's why I don't understand why he didn't tell me that if we continued a sexless marriage, we were through.

I haven't read DR yet, so I don't know what the others would have to say about your situation, but since I was in a similiar situation as you (sans affair), I would definitely give your wife that letter. If and when you give it to her, how much more time are you going to wait until she acts?

Off topic: I saw my H yesterday. He came over to play with the dogs, and we went out to dinner. When he left, he gave me a friendly hug. I wonder if he'll ever give me a sexy hug again .

I'll look forward to hear what your wife said.


Me - 48 (at time of 1st bomb)
H - 43
married - 16 Jul 94
no children
1st bomb - (said he was leaving) - 3 Jun 06
2nd bomb (said he was ready to file) - 10 Nov 06
H filed divorce - 17 Nov 06
Divorce finalized - 20 Jul 07
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Hi Alamogirl,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I am not sure that she did want me to read it (the paper was folded, with the note to me on the outside, and hers on the inside) and her behavior doesn't indicate anything either...

Her libido is there, I am pretty sure, but I believe she has made a conscious decision not to express it or any affection to me, a mind over matter deal. She is normally a pretty touchy person and deliberately avoids touching me... nothing...

Also, she doesn't believe in marriage, doesn't see the benefit, and given her self-assurance and ability to attract men, isn't afraid to lose me. We met an 80 yr guy who had had 6 wives, which she thought was great... Of course the house and carefree kids and lifestyle would be gone too, which I believe is what is keeping her, at least as much as I might be...

DR says not to bring up 'the troubles', but instead stay positive, work on yourself, avoid anger, and maybe they will find their way back. I've been doing that for 850 days now, waking up angry and sad and alone, lousy.

Her issues are more my lack of strength, being trapped in marriage (perhaps her touching me would simply confirm that she is trapped again?), my avoiding conflict (I often say that she is right and don't fight back). Maybe weightlifting, an assertiveness class, and some marriage training deal would be good?

The men suffering from too little sex thing is I think only partly true. Sure, it is nice to have sex, and it relaxes and maybe balances you, but people aren't so simple I think... My wife certainly isn't concerned about my not having sex...

My biggest concern now is not acting to stop the affair, which may get out of hand. On the other hand, she said that she doesn't want to share personal feelings with the guy, so maybe it is only physical... If I do talk to her now about it, maybe it is all over with us...

We just booked a family vacation together, in November, which she was positive on. Strange to do things and be together so much (we both work at home), but not have affection, deep communication, share laughter, the things that make a marriage good. She does watch films with me, but that is where it stops...

Hmm - the well of thoughts and feelings is dry -

How are you doing? I can really recommend reading DB or DR (both are about the same) for practical advice. Give it time with your husband, men I think like marriage...
LL





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