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dotto, walkaway,

Your advice was kindof what I expected to hear but it's great to hear it anyways. It's just that a lot has happened the past week and it is frustrating in that I have no idea if in 1 month I will D'd or not, if I will have any custody of my kids or not, and if I'll be putting my home up for sale or not [Mad]

dotto, good luck in your sitch. I'll look for your post when I get back.

walkaway, I will take your suggested vow to heart. Not a word to her about OM, D or M until Aug 27.

Thanks [Smile]

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Now my latest (one would think trivial) dilemma....Did I handle this badly?

W has decided she wants to go to the Cape. Fine with me, but I told her it is my thing, so please let me do all the prep, but does she want to pack for the kids? She was okay with that. Later I mentioned I planned on bringing our bike trailor. To make a long story short she has an issue with that because she thinks that it would be a hassle to bring it. I thought about it and decided it would be quite useful. Remember this was after she agreed to let me do the prep. She still has this need to control [Mad]

So we have a disagreement. I thought I did very well maintaining my composure and said I plan on bringing it and could she please let it go. It doesn't really affect her (we are bringing two cars, I will try to put the trailor in mine). In the past I would have given in and then seethed with resentment. This morning I asked how she was and she said halfheartedly 'OK'. Then she said this R is never going to work because we can't agree on the simplest things (referring to the disagreement about the bike trailor, which I hadn't even thought about this morning until she brought it up). I'm not sure if this violated my LRT but I said there is nothing wrong with a disagreement it's just HOW you disagree. I then said everyone disagrees aboout something and there are plenty of things in our life WE DO agree on. She 'disagreed' [Big Grin] with that. So I'm a little flabbergasted, say I have to get to work, help a little with Bfast, say I REALLY need to get going and she snaps "You've said that already....GO!". I maintained my composure, kissed the kids, said goodbye and left.

So, did I handle this well? My gut feeling is that I was reasonable. In the past I definitely would have given in on the bike trailor then been unhappy with myself, and would not have been the most pleasant person afterwards. Then again, one should pick his battles.

Any comments?

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^

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Morning!

You did okay, jim. i probably wouldn't have gotten myself sucked into a discussion of right/wrong about the bike trailer. Doesn't matter who is right/wrong -- it is something you want to do and you don't have to justify it; especially on your vacation, and especially when it doesn't impact her.

so, don't think of it as a case of "control" and did you "win" the control dilemma. don't think of it as a "battle." give up trying to justify, explain, convince her of your rightness. it is just a PREFERENCE, no one can win a preference.

let her sit with her anger and frustration. don't apologize. (you can say that you are sorry she is so wound up about this -- you can say you are sorry that the disgreement is making hard feelings between you. but don't apologize for having a preference!)

try to be your normal self when you see her again. if the bike thing turns out to be an ordeal to take with you, joke about it seeming like a great idea but you don't want the hassle either. don't take the bike trailer at all costs just to "win."

tell her part of the fun of planning this trip was that you actually got to plan it and choose the activities and things you wanted to do. tell her you appreciate her concern, but part of your growth is figuring out this stuff for yourself.

i guess i'm trying to say be totally honest about what you are doing, but don't make it a battle and don't make it a big deal. and don't cater to her anger, let her work that out on her own.

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Jim,

I feel like I am looking into a mirror when I look at your sitch. The similarities are scary:

quote:
I have tried to be a better listener, but mixed success there since I'm not naturally good at it.
Keep practicing! But don't force it. Let her come to you and when she does, drop everything you are doing. Look her in the eye and don't fix her.

quote:
My W is a controller and I have let her walk right over me for 12 years.
It seems she is still trying to control you. I think you handled the bike trailer issue just fine.

quote:
She just doesn't really think about me at all (her words). Nor does she say anything specific she wants me to change. Again, she says it's only that we bring out the worst in each other.
Heard it before. Figure out what YOU want to be. If she likes what she sees then all the better.

quote:
She wants more freedom. She says that getting married so young (she was 21, I was 29) was a mistake and having 3 kids was too much for her.
Give it to her. She needs it.

quote:
My desire is that we commit to "working" on our relationship, based on what we've learned, agreeing to try to change our behaviors in a constructive way, and see what happens (no guarantees, perhaps we realize we can't be together). Again, she's unwilling to try unless she has that love in her heart. I feel we owe it the kids to try.
You won't be able to convince her with words. If you know how you should change then do it. Don't wait for her permission.

quote:
I became basically passive-agressive (something I would need to change). Again, the irony is that she lost respect for me (referred to me as a "wimp").
I'm working on that one too.

quote:
She is meeting with therapist now who has done nothing for her in 4 mos
This is not your problem. You can't nor should change her. You can only show her compassion.

I'm sorry for being blunt. I have been doing the exact same things as you. Unfortunately for me I didn't truely understand until I had made mistakes and had setbacks.

If you are in the LRT then you should never initiate OR talks or ask about D plans. They shouldn't matter. You're focusing on you.

Good luck!

DM

P.S. Here is my thread -> I finally "get it". Is it too late?

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jim,

one more thing. i was trying to put my finger on why your wife's anger about the bike trailer struck so close to home, and i realized that when i've gotten angry and complained "see we never agree!" (or something like it) -- i REALLY want to be heard.

i'm not changing my prior advice at all, but just adding that if you get the chance, if the anger should flare again or she gets angry at something new -- try using "tell me more" and just hear her out.

i would not initiate the discussion, but be prepared to hear her out (and encourage her to share her feelings) if she should initiate it with either an angry outburst or complaint.

don't use the conversation to say your point of view. don't argue. don't say "same here." just listen. like an interview. keep asking questions until she has no more to talk about. then thank her for being so open and honest. don't make her wrong for anything she said.

if she wants to drag you into a OR conversation after that (feeling heard, she might want to hear you now), decline. tell her that you need to practice listening to her more and you want to think about what she said -- not spoil it with adding your thoughts or changing to another subject.

now that really is my 0.02, cuz that is what i would want. [Smile]

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walkaway,
Thanks again. You're definitely a more experienced DBer than I. I'm learning, and I'm trying. Amazing insight.

My guess is that she will be seething over this. But I will do my best not to fall into the trap. If she says anything I will only say that this is something I wanted to do so please accept it. And then I'll drop it. I have no plans to 'apologize',....for what? Boy, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, but that's been our pattern for 12 years.

DM,
Thanks for looking at my whole story. I will check out your thread. Appreciate your insight. I am slowly learning, and have also had my setbacks. Strange as it may sound, our little disagreement over the bike trailer indicates to me she is having second thoughts about a D (as I posted earlier last week a D was all she talked about). The next step (I hope) is that she starts to see that she also needs to change. Maybe sticking to my guns will help nudge her in that direction?

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walkaway,

Your last message actually brought a tear to my eye. As hard as I've tried I haven't succeeded in REALLY LISTENING to her. I always have this uncontrollable urge to respond. She even said last night the "we cannot even agree on this" comment wasn't specific to the damn bike trailer. I'm starting to understand it's a symptom of our two biggest problems. She tries to control and I don't listen. So, I gotta learn to shut-up and hear her out.

Thanks again!

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I am gonna jump here... just spent tim quickly reading your thread JimfromBeantown and interestingly... reading about the stupid bike trailor turned a light bulb on in my head.

I have been seeing a traditional type therapist... tradional in a Catholic perspective... where we talked a lot about who wears the pants in the family. Who is the head of the family... that kind of thing. It's kind of like nails on a chalkboard if you at all take a feminist perspective... which I do because, I come from a very matriarchal line... where the women have been in control... My H comes from the opposite. Right from the start... there were bound to be problems...
My H did what you did... just aquiese because it was easier than dealing with the issue and he... didn't want to be a dominator like his father... sigh... so... resentment built up, I looked like a shrew and I am quite sure my H felt a lot like you did.

What's my point? I am not even sure! [Confused] [Roll Eyes]

This control thing over ridiculous little things is not going to stop until the light bulb goes on in your W's head.... and it doesn't seem as if her current C has even got close to exploring that with her. Right now... she's happier being IN CONTROL than being happy. Until she learns to let go and explore the freedom of NOT being in control all the time... you two are gonna have endless tension. The bike thing is just proving it. When I started letting go of the control it was quite liberating. I learned.. I do not have to make all the decisions, m y way isn't the ONLY way to do something.

It seems to me that the LRT - and I am not sure that you are at LAST RESORT stage yet... it's more of 180s you are doing... might be ask her when it's not associated with any one thing in particular... who the head of your family is... ( ok folks ... I am NOT a neanderthal... bear with me ok!) and why it is that she does not trust your judgement. Why does she believe she has to do all the planning, make all the decisions, etc etc. What does she believe YOUR role in this marriage is?
Observe her family. The apple doesn't fall from the tree ya know?

But for this weekend.... let her simmer... you have to learn to let it roll off your back. Your 180s might have more to do with asserting yourself a little more a la the bike trailor. Speak up for yourself a little more... ya know?
Insinuate yourself into HER decision making when it involves joint issues and the children.

As to HER YOU the R etc... just drop it. Detach from it completely. I see it as a good sign that she is going with you. You are walking on eggshells because you are allowing her to affect your own PMA. Get over that. No OR talk, no sep or divorce talk... make like you are already starting over again. Don't let her push your buttons. Easier to say than to do. She probably won't like it. too bad so sad! It's her problem not yours.

Take charge on this vacation from now on.... you are starting that.
It's hard work... are you up to it?

tree

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tree, walkaway, DM,

Thanks for your responses today. Hearing from a real live (albeit former) WAW, a fomer control freak, and a 'wimp' [Big Grin] (sorry DM, I couldn't resist) has given me three perspectives which amazingly share some of the same messages.

When I got home my W started with add'l reasons not to bring the bike trailer (didn't she have more important things to worry about today) and I said I've decided to bring it, because it will be useful, and to please accept that. That's where it ended (FINALLY).

Later, out of the blue she mentioned that she is frustrated that I am being so stubborn about the house (that I do not intend to leave)...didn't explicitly say 'when/if we D' but it was implied. I clarified by saying it was either that or we sell and split our assets in half, that I will not live in an apartment. I cut it off right there, and very quietly left the room, remembering I am on a strict LRT. We got along fine the rest of the night.

So, tomorrow is the start of what may be an interesting week. The place on the Cape is very small, so we'll see how long she lasts before she splits for home. My feelings are mixed. Part of me wants her there (I still love her for crying out loud) but I could also REALLY use a break. It's been a tough 6 mos.

I'll be back on the 17th and will touch bases then or soon after. Until then, happy DBing!

JFromB

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